April 15, 2025 • 22 mins
Looking to land a senior project manager role but feeling stuck? You’re not alone. The path to senior PM isn’t always clear, and setbacks can be frustrating. In this episode, we break down what might be holding you back and how to position yourself for that next big opportunity.
Host Kelsey Alpaio sits down with Logan Langin, Senior Project Manager at Sanford Health, to discuss the mindset shifts and strategies that helped him make the leap. With experience running the “30 Days to PM” program, Logan shares practical insights to help you level up your career.
Resources from this episode:
- Join DPM Membership
- Subscribe to the newsletter to get our latest articles and podcasts
- Connect with Logan on LinkedIn
- Check out Sanford Health
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kelsey Alpaio (00:05):
Hey! I'm Kelsey.
And welcome back to The Retroon The Digital Project Manager
podcast—where we dig into pastlessons, future trends, and
what they mean for your career.
If you're listening to thisepisode, you're probably
in the market for a seniorproject manager role.
It's not always aneasy jump to make.
You're going to hit roadblocks.
(00:26):
You'll hear "no" moretimes than you'd like.
And maybe you're already feelingstuck—wondering what's missing
or why you're not gettingthat promotion or job offer.
That's exactly what we'reunpacking here today.
I have Logan Langinhere with me.
He's a Senior Project Managerat Sanford Health, so he's
been exactly where you are.
He figured out how to positionhis skills and shift his mindset
(00:48):
to make that jump to senior PM.
He also runs a “30 Daysto PM” program for folks
trying to break into thefield—so, he knows his stuff.
Logan, welcome to the show!
Logan Langin (00:58):
Thanks for having me.
Kelsey Alpaio (00:59):
So Logan, tell us a little bit about yourself
and the work that you do.
Logan Langin (01:03):
I've been in the project management field
for almost a decade now.
I started out as a,originally as a social
worker for about a year.
I then moved into a labtechnician role as a bench
scientist, and as I was goingthrough that process and
really trying to figure outwhat I wanted to do with my
career and my early twenties,I stumbled across project
(01:23):
management as an opportunitywithin my organization.
This was probably about ayear and a half into my,
career as a researcher.
I was really trying tofigure out, okay, what
is project management?
How do I do project management?
How can I translate andbuild my skillset where I
am to, eventually pivot intoa project management role?
As I went along, over thenext six and a half or so
(01:46):
years, I got promoted into alab manager role and really
started getting exposure to,within the lab work that I
was already doing, into my ownprojects, into elevated projects
with collaborative groups.
That really set the stage forme to become a research project
manager in 2020, right aroundthe pandemic from there, as I
was doing that work and reallyjust refining my skillset
(02:09):
and figuring out how do Itake what I'm learning now
and what is that next step?
Senior project managerwas obviously the logical
choice, and so for me it wasfiguring out what is that
kind of next step to becomea senior project manager
and how do you become one?
And so in leveraging these morecomplex and larger projects.
(02:31):
As a research project manager,it really allowed me to span
the gap to a new opportunityoutside of research in
healthcare project managementas a senior PM which I've
been doing since 2021.
And so that's reallyjust a quick summary
of my career so far.
Kelsey Alpaio (02:50):
And as you mentioned, you do now have
that coveted senior PM title.
Walk us through whatyou had to do to get it.
What did that processlook like for you?
Logan Langin (03:00):
Yeah there are a couple of things there.
First and foremost, as Iwas discovering what project
management was workingtowards the original research.
Project manager, my originaltitle as a project manager,
it truly was what's gonnaset me apart in the field.
I did pursue my PMP, myProfessional Project Management
certification and got thatin 2018, which I feel like
(03:23):
really helped open doorsfor me towards the senior
project manager position.
It really validates andverifies the level of
experience that you have.
Something that I would highlightto any project manager when
you're really looking to makethat leap from project Manager
to that next promotionalopportunity, senior project
manager or even further, is,first and foremost you need a
(03:44):
diversity of projects managed.
For me, I wasn't just doing thesame thing over and over again.
I was doing a lot of differentprojects with a lot of different
stakeholder groups, varyinglevels of complexity, higher
budgets, higher visibility.
That was a key highlight forgetting hired into that senior
PM role because you aren'tgoing to be doing the same
(04:08):
types of projects all the time.
You're going to be working withnot only diverse stakeholder
groups, but much larger,typically stakeholder groups.
You're also going to beworking with higher budgets,
have higher visibilitytowards executive leadership.
And so for project managers,I really highlight.
Looking to pursue opportunitiesfor diversity of projects
(04:29):
managed, whether it'sdifferent types in different
industries, things that areapplicable across those domains.
Really taking in feedback.
Again, you're workingthrough that complex team
management you're workingwith and reporting to upper
management leadership, you'realmost always going to have.
Some type of a businessor strategic impact.
So you need to be reallyaware of that language and
(04:52):
the visibility of that and howto effectively report that.
And then I think storytellingis a big part of this and being
able to effectively convey yourexperience and how it meets
the needs of that opportunitythat you're pursuing.
Here's what I've done in thepast and here's how I feel
like it can translate tothis next opportunity as a
senior PM where I can thrive.
Kelsey Alpaio (05:13):
That's some great advice there.
It makes me wonder how longdid that process take you, like
from the moment you decidedyou wanted to get into a
more senior role to when youactually stepped into that role?
How long was that processand how many nos did
you get along the way?
Or was it like, wasit easy for you?
Was it just Yes, immediately?
Logan Langin (05:34):
Yeah.
No it wasn't.
Honestly.
I became a researchproject manager in 2020.
I started to get burnt out.
In that role as a projectmanager, most project managers
will find if they're not in amore formal project management
organization, they tend totake on a lot of hats, which
is what I was doing as well.
You're doing a lot of theproject work on top of doing
(05:56):
a lot of the managementand that can be burdensome.
And so it took me aboutthree years to make my
way from research projectmanager to senior project
manager and really feelcomfortable with where I was
as a senior project manager.
Admittedly, I got a lotof nos along the way.
I probably applied to easily40 or 50 internal opportunities
(06:19):
and probably another 40 or 50or more external opportunities.
And out of those, I probablygot less than 10 true
interview opportunities.
So it did take time.
But I will say this, and wemay go through this a little
bit more as we go along.
Once you figure out reallywhat you can bring to the table
and what they're looking for,you typically unlock multiple
(06:42):
opportunities at the same time.
And that was certainlymy experience.
I got a lot of no's alongthe way, but when it came
time to pursue the rightopportunity, I actually had
three opportunities and threeoffers at the same time.
So when you do itright, it really shows.
Kelsey Alpaio (06:57):
Wow.
Yeah.
Three at the same time.
That's definitely overwhelming.
It's clear that at some pointyou figured out, like what were
those things on your resume thatyou needed to be highlighting?
What are those things that youneeded to be talking about in
those interviews, can you talkus through that a little bit?
What were those keychanges that you made?
Logan Langin (07:13):
First and foremost, I wasn't really
representing my resume well.
The first thing that I wouldsay is, and hopefully people
don't do this, I certainly didit a lot at the time, you can't
just use the same templatedresume for every single job
that you're applying for, right?
Like every job isslightly different.
They have slightlydifferent needs.
That's why they all havedifferent job descriptions
with different, areasthat they focus on.
(07:34):
And so first and foremost, youneed to be very specific and
really try to do your homeworkand be intentional about the
roles that you're applying for.
Do I have the experiencethat they're looking for?
Is it something thatI'm going to be driven
towards and really enjoy?
Is it something thatI'm passionate about?
Then it's really taking thejob description and evaluating
(07:55):
your experience againstit in an effective way.
And so for me, Istarted doing that.
I started another big area,and so for an example, over the
course of all of those differentrejections and interviews and
things of that nature, someof the feedback I got was, you
don't have, as much complex.
Team leadership as we'dlike, or you're not
(08:15):
displaying the leadershipqualities, the visibility and
reporting of your projects.
That would be typical ofa senior project manager
candidate that we'd beinterested in hiring.
So I took that feedbackand really said, okay, A,
how can I build this withinmy current role with the
skill sets that I have?
And then B, like certainly Ineed to start incorporating that
(08:36):
more into my resume because thisis going to be valuable beyond
this opportunity, but for mostopportunities as a senior PM.
And so I really startedadding that information in.
Another key area that Italk about is metrics.
You can tell people whatyou've done, but until you
really qualify, like whatis the business impact,
what is the strategy behindit where it really is
(08:57):
valuable to the company?
I'm not saying it doesn'tmean anything, but that's
what the company islooking for and that's what
Senior PMs are delivering.
They're deliveringstrategic value.
And so on your resume, you needto start showing those things.
What are the budgetsthat you've worked with?
What are the sizes ofthe departments that
you've worked with?
What did you ultimately deliver?
Was it revenue?
Was it efficiency?
Was it standardization?
(09:19):
And how did you do it?
What was the impactto the end customer?
So highlighting metrics thatreally showed the impact of
the projects you're doinggoes further than just, I've
performed risk management asa bullet point in your resume.
I would say the other thingthat I would certainly suggest
from a resume standpoint is,and this is probably a smaller
detail, but resumes are easierto read when you can put
(09:42):
them in a format that reallydoes highlight that impact.
And so trying to put themmore in a, like a, what did
you do and how did you doit format, what did it lead
to, really helps versus justlike the, again, the generic.
Performed riskmanagement performed.
Change management developeda communication strategy.
And so if you're actionablyoutlining your resume
(10:05):
appropriately, hiring managersare gonna see the value that
you've delivered and be ableto already start seeing even
before the interview whereyou could tie into their team.
The one other thing that Iwould mention regarding just a
key thing that helped me withgetting a promotion beyond just
the resume is development andstarting to lean on a network.
(10:26):
I'm very active on LinkedIn now.
I was not at the time.
Even within my own organizationas I was a, trying to move
into a senior PM role, butthen starting to recognize that
research probably wasn't anarea I could stay and do that,
I started networking with peoplewithin my own organization
that A, had made the leap outof research into a different
(10:48):
area, and then B, with projectmanagers in my own organization.
Hey, I see you are a seniorPM or you are a program
manager, or you do lead aproject management group?
What are some key areas andthings that I should be doing?
How can I boost my own profile?
Again, going back to whatcan I start building?
(11:08):
What are the things I shouldbe highlighting to give
myself this opportunitytowards that next step?
So I think that really helps ifyou don't have that available
within your organization, Ihighly suggest, LinkedIn is a
great place to also seek it outwith qualified professionals in
the project management space.
But a great local opportunityis through local PMI
(11:29):
chapters, through theProject Management Institute
and your local chapter.
For me, I live in Sioux Falls,South Dakota, which is small for
probably most of the listeners.
There are almost 300project managers in
my local PMI chapter.
And so it's just a greatopportunity to connect
with other projectmanagers and be open and
(11:49):
available to opportunity.
Kelsey Alpaio (11:51):
Yeah, absolutely.
And we have a communityas well with DPM.
We have our Slack community thatthere's people always active in.
It's just, such a greatway, not only to make those
connections, but also to feellike you have that support.
Like you mentioned, thisis a role that a lot of
people get burnt out in.
It is a role that can feelreally lonely at times.
So having those communitiescan be so helpful.
Logan Langin (12:12):
Agreed.
A hundred percent.
Kelsey Alpaio (12:13):
So you talked a little about the
skills that senior PMs need.
So you talked about leadershipskills, you talked about
those storytelling skills.
When it comes to the interviewprocess, can you talk a
little bit more about.
What you think are themost important skills a PM
should have if they wannaland a senior PM role and
be successful in that role,and then also how they can
(12:34):
work to build those skills.
Logan Langin (12:36):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's interesting because onceyou become a senior PM, at
least in my experience, youreally recognize where the
soft skills play such a keyrole in the work that you do.
It really is more of the artof project management than I
would say the science of it.
And and so the art of projectmanagement and really those
(12:57):
people skills that aregonna really get you far
and things that you shouldbe honing to effectively
drive your projects forward.
As a senior projectmanager, they sound kind
of pie in the sky, so tospeak, but problem solving.
Communication is a huge one.
More complex teams.
Typically, you're reportingup to leadership, executive
(13:19):
leadership in a way thatyou maybe weren't before.
You're working with morecomplex teams, sometimes you're
mentoring other PMs, and sothe communication is obviously
a key aspect of it in a waythat as maybe more of a junior
role is not, you're just notexposed to the same level or
number of teams or departments.
A big one I employ or like toemploy is active listening.
(13:41):
Obviously, in a lot ofinstances you are facilitating
conversations, meetings,decisions being made, and
so from your perspective,especially unless you were like
a subject matter expert in thatarea, you're not gonna know
everything that's going on.
You're not gonna know everythingthat they're talking about.
You may not know all theacronyms that are being shared
or the specific insights orexpertise that they have.
(14:05):
So for you as a projectmanager, it's finding or
honing the ability to pullout the key pieces that are
necessary to keep things moving.
Where are the action items?
Where are the next steps?
What is key contextthat's necessary to keep
things moving forward?
And to do that, you have to bevery good at, again, at active
listening and just listeningto understand and then be able
(14:28):
to rephrase appropriately.
Emotional intelligenceis also a big one.
Again, just overall thosepeople skills in relation to
empathy and understanding peopleand being able to relate to
people, I think is a big one.
Adaptability, as you go alongin your journey, and this is
certainly valuable for juniorproject managers as well, but
(14:49):
adaptability is huge As yougo along and your projects
become more complex, they'realso going to have the.
Success of them is going tobe that much more important.
And so as a project manager, itreally is on you to help figure
out where can we be flexible?
How can we properlyincorporate change?
(15:10):
How do we mitigaterisk for it happens?
And that requires anadaptable skillset.
I also talked, as yousaid before, a little
bit about storytelling.
I certainly think that as asenior project manager, it
is a great skill to have.
Often you are.
The mediary between leadershipand project teams and
leadership isn't always fullyinformed of what's going
(15:32):
on or the total process.
They don't have the timeto dedicate to that.
And so as a senior projectmanager, you're often
taking complex informationand disseminating it in
a way that leadership canunderstand what the key
bullet points that they need.
So for you as a senior projectmanager, being able to relate
that into a language that theycan understand and ideally
(15:55):
weave it into a, a story thatthey can piece together is
going to benefit you a lot.
It also certainly willhelp a ton with interview
prep and resume and allthat good stuff as well.
Finally, I really wouldhighlight kind of some
of the key tenants thatare standard to project
management, but are certainlyvery important at a senior
project manager level beingrisk and change management.
(16:18):
As a junior project manager,sometimes you can work
your way through thosethings without standardized
processes or without trueintent behind ensuring that
change is controlled throughyour process and risks
are managed appropriately.
Again, at the level that you'regonna be working at as a senior
project manager, your projectssuccess is gonna have an impact
on the business as a whole.
(16:39):
So if you're not properly goingthrough change management,
ensuring that you're followingthrough on how they're
impacting the overall projectitself and communicating and
conveying that appropriately.
And the same with risks,you're gonna have a hard time
keeping your arms around thatproject and making sure that
it delivers successfully.
Kelsey Alpaio (16:58):
Yeah.
Hearing you walk through allof those skills, like it's
becoming clear to me thatthe senior PM role probably
isn't right for every PM.
And so I'm wondering, arethere other avenues like you
would recommend for PMs thatthey should explore if they
wanna get promoted or growin their careers, but don't
feel like a senior PM rolewould be right for them?
Or are there other avenuesthat you explored yourself?
Logan Langin (17:20):
Yeah, so the benefit of skill sets for
project managers and, movinginto senior project management
roles or not, the benefit ofhaving that skill set as a
project manager is they'rebroadly applicable, those
strong, soft skills and beingable to deliver things on time.
And be able to, effectivelyconvey things to leadership
(17:42):
is desired in every industry,every field, every role.
And so oftentimes if projectmanagers are like, yep, I like
project management, I feellike I could utilize it within
the frameworks of the dutiesof a role, but I don't want
to solely manage projects.
I certainly think thatleadership roles and
(18:04):
typically in operationalareas of an organization
are a great place to land.
You can take those people skillsand that organization that's
really desired from a leadershipposition and then marry it
to operational expertise thatyou gain over time or you've
gained as a project manager.
In my case, in the past myexpertise was in research.
(18:26):
And so moving into a leadershiprole, some type of a managerial
or even potentially as I wentforward, an executive role
where I could apply the projectmanagement expertise I had
to, the research expertisethat I gained prior to being
a project manager certainlywould lend itself to those
types of opportunities.
Another area thatI would highlight.
(18:47):
If you are a project manager,but maybe you like more of
the people side of projectmanagement, which I have to
caveat, project managementcertainly is people management,
but there is a lens of projectmanagement that is very
involved with project changeand how it affects people.
Anytime you embark on aproject, it's almost always
something new and thereforeit's going to affect a process.
(19:10):
Therefore affect a personand change the way in
which they do their work.
And so in my organization andobviously out there as well,
there are opportunities tobecome or to take on roles
as a change manager, whereyou are more focused on
the people side of change.
And how do you effectivelyengage people so that
(19:31):
they buy into that change.
So if you're not so processoriented, because project
management very much falls onthe side of, here are the steps
we need to take to move fromplace A to place B. If you're
much more interested in how dowe get people to embrace getting
from point A to point B, changemanagement would certainly be
(19:53):
a great opportunity for you.
And those skill sets arevery translatable as far
as, again, the soft skillsand working with people.
I would certainly suggestthat as a potential
opportunity as well.
Kelsey Alpaio (20:04):
What is one thing our listeners could
start doing this week to movecloser to a senior PM role?
Logan Langin (20:10):
I've got a more of a philosophical thought to this.
One thing that theycould be doing this week.
I certainly think froman actionable standpoint,
really take some time to.
Do a skills gap analysison what you have versus
what you don't today.
Sit down and really thinkthrough what are the projects
(20:32):
that I've done in my careerand what is a senior project
manager role looking for?
What am I seeing inthe job descriptions?
What am I hearingin the interviews?
What am I hearing from othersenior PMs, and where are
those gaps for me and how canI start developing out those
skills over the course of thenext three months, six months?
(20:53):
Certainly don't stop applying.
But if there are gaps thatyou're identifying in that
skills gap analysis, startworking on them and start
incorporating some of thatinformation into your resume to
make you a stronger candidate.
But something I would certainlysay to project managers as
they're going through thisprocess, and they might
feel like I did where theywere, felt like they were
getting rejected constantlyand they weren't necessarily
(21:15):
representing themselves aswell as they would've liked.
I can certainlyempathize with that.
It's a lonely feeling.
Give yourself grace.
Recognize that these thingstake a lot of time, and for
the most part, the way thatyou're gonna succeed in this
is through trial and error.
You're going to putyourself out there.
You're gonna get rejected.
Make sure that you're evaluatingwhy you're getting rejected.
(21:37):
Where are the areas that you'rehearing, either repeated areas
where you should be workingon or marketing yourself
better, and start takingthose things into account and.
Again, if you already havethat skillset, awesome.
Start incorporating it intothe language that you're
using in your resume, aswell as in interviews.
If you don't start to thinkabout how you can start
(21:59):
building and incorporatingthat as soon as possible.
Kelsey Alpaio (22:02):
Great.
Great note to end on.
Thank you so much for spendingtime with us today, Logan.
Logan Langin (22:07):
Absolutely.
I appreciate theoffer to be here.
Thank you.
Kelsey Alpaio (22:15):
That's it for today's Retro.
Be sure to follow the showso you never miss an episode.
And if you wanna keep theconversation going with
a crew of a thousand plusproject management pros
who get it, come join usat thedpm.com/membership.
Thanks for listening!
Hey! I'm Kelsey.
And welcome back to The Retroon The Digital Project Manager
podcast—where we dig into pastlessons, future trends, and
what they mean for your career.
If you're listening to thisepisode, you're probably
in the market for a seniorproject manager role.
It's not always aneasy jump to make.
You're going to hit roadblocks.
(00:26):
You'll hear "no" moretimes than you'd like.
And maybe you're already feelingstuck—wondering what's missing
or why you're not gettingthat promotion or job offer.
That's exactly what we'reunpacking here today.
I have Logan Langinhere with me.
He's a Senior Project Managerat Sanford Health, so he's
been exactly where you are.
He figured out how to positionhis skills and shift his mindset
(00:48):
to make that jump to senior PM.
He also runs a “30 Daysto PM” program for folks
trying to break into thefield—so, he knows his stuff.
Logan, welcome to the show!
Logan Langin (00:58):
Thanks for having me.
Kelsey Alpaio (00:59):
So Logan, tell us a little bit about yourself
and the work that you do.
Logan Langin (01:03):
I've been in the project management field
for almost a decade now.
I started out as a,originally as a social
worker for about a year.
I then moved into a labtechnician role as a bench
scientist, and as I was goingthrough that process and
really trying to figure outwhat I wanted to do with my
career and my early twenties,I stumbled across project
(01:23):
management as an opportunitywithin my organization.
This was probably about ayear and a half into my,
career as a researcher.
I was really trying tofigure out, okay, what
is project management?
How do I do project management?
How can I translate andbuild my skillset where I
am to, eventually pivot intoa project management role?
As I went along, over thenext six and a half or so
(01:46):
years, I got promoted into alab manager role and really
started getting exposure to,within the lab work that I
was already doing, into my ownprojects, into elevated projects
with collaborative groups.
That really set the stage forme to become a research project
manager in 2020, right aroundthe pandemic from there, as I
was doing that work and reallyjust refining my skillset
(02:09):
and figuring out how do Itake what I'm learning now
and what is that next step?
Senior project managerwas obviously the logical
choice, and so for me it wasfiguring out what is that
kind of next step to becomea senior project manager
and how do you become one?
And so in leveraging these morecomplex and larger projects.
(02:31):
As a research project manager,it really allowed me to span
the gap to a new opportunityoutside of research in
healthcare project managementas a senior PM which I've
been doing since 2021.
And so that's reallyjust a quick summary
of my career so far.
Kelsey Alpaio (02:50):
And as you mentioned, you do now have
that coveted senior PM title.
Walk us through whatyou had to do to get it.
What did that processlook like for you?
Logan Langin (03:00):
Yeah there are a couple of things there.
First and foremost, as Iwas discovering what project
management was workingtowards the original research.
Project manager, my originaltitle as a project manager,
it truly was what's gonnaset me apart in the field.
I did pursue my PMP, myProfessional Project Management
certification and got thatin 2018, which I feel like
(03:23):
really helped open doorsfor me towards the senior
project manager position.
It really validates andverifies the level of
experience that you have.
Something that I would highlightto any project manager when
you're really looking to makethat leap from project Manager
to that next promotionalopportunity, senior project
manager or even further, is,first and foremost you need a
(03:44):
diversity of projects managed.
For me, I wasn't just doing thesame thing over and over again.
I was doing a lot of differentprojects with a lot of different
stakeholder groups, varyinglevels of complexity, higher
budgets, higher visibility.
That was a key highlight forgetting hired into that senior
PM role because you aren'tgoing to be doing the same
(04:08):
types of projects all the time.
You're going to be working withnot only diverse stakeholder
groups, but much larger,typically stakeholder groups.
You're also going to beworking with higher budgets,
have higher visibilitytowards executive leadership.
And so for project managers,I really highlight.
Looking to pursue opportunitiesfor diversity of projects
(04:29):
managed, whether it'sdifferent types in different
industries, things that areapplicable across those domains.
Really taking in feedback.
Again, you're workingthrough that complex team
management you're workingwith and reporting to upper
management leadership, you'realmost always going to have.
Some type of a businessor strategic impact.
So you need to be reallyaware of that language and
(04:52):
the visibility of that and howto effectively report that.
And then I think storytellingis a big part of this and being
able to effectively convey yourexperience and how it meets
the needs of that opportunitythat you're pursuing.
Here's what I've done in thepast and here's how I feel
like it can translate tothis next opportunity as a
senior PM where I can thrive.
Kelsey Alpaio (05:13):
That's some great advice there.
It makes me wonder how longdid that process take you, like
from the moment you decidedyou wanted to get into a
more senior role to when youactually stepped into that role?
How long was that processand how many nos did
you get along the way?
Or was it like, wasit easy for you?
Was it just Yes, immediately?
Logan Langin (05:34):
Yeah.
No it wasn't.
Honestly.
I became a researchproject manager in 2020.
I started to get burnt out.
In that role as a projectmanager, most project managers
will find if they're not in amore formal project management
organization, they tend totake on a lot of hats, which
is what I was doing as well.
You're doing a lot of theproject work on top of doing
(05:56):
a lot of the managementand that can be burdensome.
And so it took me aboutthree years to make my
way from research projectmanager to senior project
manager and really feelcomfortable with where I was
as a senior project manager.
Admittedly, I got a lotof nos along the way.
I probably applied to easily40 or 50 internal opportunities
(06:19):
and probably another 40 or 50or more external opportunities.
And out of those, I probablygot less than 10 true
interview opportunities.
So it did take time.
But I will say this, and wemay go through this a little
bit more as we go along.
Once you figure out reallywhat you can bring to the table
and what they're looking for,you typically unlock multiple
(06:42):
opportunities at the same time.
And that was certainlymy experience.
I got a lot of no's alongthe way, but when it came
time to pursue the rightopportunity, I actually had
three opportunities and threeoffers at the same time.
So when you do itright, it really shows.
Kelsey Alpaio (06:57):
Wow.
Yeah.
Three at the same time.
That's definitely overwhelming.
It's clear that at some pointyou figured out, like what were
those things on your resume thatyou needed to be highlighting?
What are those things that youneeded to be talking about in
those interviews, can you talkus through that a little bit?
What were those keychanges that you made?
Logan Langin (07:13):
First and foremost, I wasn't really
representing my resume well.
The first thing that I wouldsay is, and hopefully people
don't do this, I certainly didit a lot at the time, you can't
just use the same templatedresume for every single job
that you're applying for, right?
Like every job isslightly different.
They have slightlydifferent needs.
That's why they all havedifferent job descriptions
with different, areasthat they focus on.
(07:34):
And so first and foremost, youneed to be very specific and
really try to do your homeworkand be intentional about the
roles that you're applying for.
Do I have the experiencethat they're looking for?
Is it something thatI'm going to be driven
towards and really enjoy?
Is it something thatI'm passionate about?
Then it's really taking thejob description and evaluating
(07:55):
your experience againstit in an effective way.
And so for me, Istarted doing that.
I started another big area,and so for an example, over the
course of all of those differentrejections and interviews and
things of that nature, someof the feedback I got was, you
don't have, as much complex.
Team leadership as we'dlike, or you're not
(08:15):
displaying the leadershipqualities, the visibility and
reporting of your projects.
That would be typical ofa senior project manager
candidate that we'd beinterested in hiring.
So I took that feedbackand really said, okay, A,
how can I build this withinmy current role with the
skill sets that I have?
And then B, like certainly Ineed to start incorporating that
(08:36):
more into my resume because thisis going to be valuable beyond
this opportunity, but for mostopportunities as a senior PM.
And so I really startedadding that information in.
Another key area that Italk about is metrics.
You can tell people whatyou've done, but until you
really qualify, like whatis the business impact,
what is the strategy behindit where it really is
(08:57):
valuable to the company?
I'm not saying it doesn'tmean anything, but that's
what the company islooking for and that's what
Senior PMs are delivering.
They're deliveringstrategic value.
And so on your resume, you needto start showing those things.
What are the budgetsthat you've worked with?
What are the sizes ofthe departments that
you've worked with?
What did you ultimately deliver?
Was it revenue?
Was it efficiency?
Was it standardization?
(09:19):
And how did you do it?
What was the impactto the end customer?
So highlighting metrics thatreally showed the impact of
the projects you're doinggoes further than just, I've
performed risk management asa bullet point in your resume.
I would say the other thingthat I would certainly suggest
from a resume standpoint is,and this is probably a smaller
detail, but resumes are easierto read when you can put
(09:42):
them in a format that reallydoes highlight that impact.
And so trying to put themmore in a, like a, what did
you do and how did you doit format, what did it lead
to, really helps versus justlike the, again, the generic.
Performed riskmanagement performed.
Change management developeda communication strategy.
And so if you're actionablyoutlining your resume
(10:05):
appropriately, hiring managersare gonna see the value that
you've delivered and be ableto already start seeing even
before the interview whereyou could tie into their team.
The one other thing that Iwould mention regarding just a
key thing that helped me withgetting a promotion beyond just
the resume is development andstarting to lean on a network.
(10:26):
I'm very active on LinkedIn now.
I was not at the time.
Even within my own organizationas I was a, trying to move
into a senior PM role, butthen starting to recognize that
research probably wasn't anarea I could stay and do that,
I started networking with peoplewithin my own organization
that A, had made the leap outof research into a different
(10:48):
area, and then B, with projectmanagers in my own organization.
Hey, I see you are a seniorPM or you are a program
manager, or you do lead aproject management group?
What are some key areas andthings that I should be doing?
How can I boost my own profile?
Again, going back to whatcan I start building?
(11:08):
What are the things I shouldbe highlighting to give
myself this opportunitytowards that next step?
So I think that really helps ifyou don't have that available
within your organization, Ihighly suggest, LinkedIn is a
great place to also seek it outwith qualified professionals in
the project management space.
But a great local opportunityis through local PMI
(11:29):
chapters, through theProject Management Institute
and your local chapter.
For me, I live in Sioux Falls,South Dakota, which is small for
probably most of the listeners.
There are almost 300project managers in
my local PMI chapter.
And so it's just a greatopportunity to connect
with other projectmanagers and be open and
(11:49):
available to opportunity.
Kelsey Alpaio (11:51):
Yeah, absolutely.
And we have a communityas well with DPM.
We have our Slack community thatthere's people always active in.
It's just, such a greatway, not only to make those
connections, but also to feellike you have that support.
Like you mentioned, thisis a role that a lot of
people get burnt out in.
It is a role that can feelreally lonely at times.
So having those communitiescan be so helpful.
Logan Langin (12:12):
Agreed.
A hundred percent.
Kelsey Alpaio (12:13):
So you talked a little about the
skills that senior PMs need.
So you talked about leadershipskills, you talked about
those storytelling skills.
When it comes to the interviewprocess, can you talk a
little bit more about.
What you think are themost important skills a PM
should have if they wannaland a senior PM role and
be successful in that role,and then also how they can
(12:34):
work to build those skills.
Logan Langin (12:36):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's interesting because onceyou become a senior PM, at
least in my experience, youreally recognize where the
soft skills play such a keyrole in the work that you do.
It really is more of the artof project management than I
would say the science of it.
And and so the art of projectmanagement and really those
(12:57):
people skills that aregonna really get you far
and things that you shouldbe honing to effectively
drive your projects forward.
As a senior projectmanager, they sound kind
of pie in the sky, so tospeak, but problem solving.
Communication is a huge one.
More complex teams.
Typically, you're reportingup to leadership, executive
(13:19):
leadership in a way thatyou maybe weren't before.
You're working with morecomplex teams, sometimes you're
mentoring other PMs, and sothe communication is obviously
a key aspect of it in a waythat as maybe more of a junior
role is not, you're just notexposed to the same level or
number of teams or departments.
A big one I employ or like toemploy is active listening.
(13:41):
Obviously, in a lot ofinstances you are facilitating
conversations, meetings,decisions being made, and
so from your perspective,especially unless you were like
a subject matter expert in thatarea, you're not gonna know
everything that's going on.
You're not gonna know everythingthat they're talking about.
You may not know all theacronyms that are being shared
or the specific insights orexpertise that they have.
(14:05):
So for you as a projectmanager, it's finding or
honing the ability to pullout the key pieces that are
necessary to keep things moving.
Where are the action items?
Where are the next steps?
What is key contextthat's necessary to keep
things moving forward?
And to do that, you have to bevery good at, again, at active
listening and just listeningto understand and then be able
(14:28):
to rephrase appropriately.
Emotional intelligenceis also a big one.
Again, just overall thosepeople skills in relation to
empathy and understanding peopleand being able to relate to
people, I think is a big one.
Adaptability, as you go alongin your journey, and this is
certainly valuable for juniorproject managers as well, but
(14:49):
adaptability is huge As yougo along and your projects
become more complex, they'realso going to have the.
Success of them is going tobe that much more important.
And so as a project manager, itreally is on you to help figure
out where can we be flexible?
How can we properlyincorporate change?
(15:10):
How do we mitigaterisk for it happens?
And that requires anadaptable skillset.
I also talked, as yousaid before, a little
bit about storytelling.
I certainly think that as asenior project manager, it
is a great skill to have.
Often you are.
The mediary between leadershipand project teams and
leadership isn't always fullyinformed of what's going
(15:32):
on or the total process.
They don't have the timeto dedicate to that.
And so as a senior projectmanager, you're often
taking complex informationand disseminating it in
a way that leadership canunderstand what the key
bullet points that they need.
So for you as a senior projectmanager, being able to relate
that into a language that theycan understand and ideally
(15:55):
weave it into a, a story thatthey can piece together is
going to benefit you a lot.
It also certainly willhelp a ton with interview
prep and resume and allthat good stuff as well.
Finally, I really wouldhighlight kind of some
of the key tenants thatare standard to project
management, but are certainlyvery important at a senior
project manager level beingrisk and change management.
(16:18):
As a junior project manager,sometimes you can work
your way through thosethings without standardized
processes or without trueintent behind ensuring that
change is controlled throughyour process and risks
are managed appropriately.
Again, at the level that you'regonna be working at as a senior
project manager, your projectssuccess is gonna have an impact
on the business as a whole.
(16:39):
So if you're not properly goingthrough change management,
ensuring that you're followingthrough on how they're
impacting the overall projectitself and communicating and
conveying that appropriately.
And the same with risks,you're gonna have a hard time
keeping your arms around thatproject and making sure that
it delivers successfully.
Kelsey Alpaio (16:58):
Yeah.
Hearing you walk through allof those skills, like it's
becoming clear to me thatthe senior PM role probably
isn't right for every PM.
And so I'm wondering, arethere other avenues like you
would recommend for PMs thatthey should explore if they
wanna get promoted or growin their careers, but don't
feel like a senior PM rolewould be right for them?
Or are there other avenuesthat you explored yourself?
Logan Langin (17:20):
Yeah, so the benefit of skill sets for
project managers and, movinginto senior project management
roles or not, the benefit ofhaving that skill set as a
project manager is they'rebroadly applicable, those
strong, soft skills and beingable to deliver things on time.
And be able to, effectivelyconvey things to leadership
(17:42):
is desired in every industry,every field, every role.
And so oftentimes if projectmanagers are like, yep, I like
project management, I feellike I could utilize it within
the frameworks of the dutiesof a role, but I don't want
to solely manage projects.
I certainly think thatleadership roles and
(18:04):
typically in operationalareas of an organization
are a great place to land.
You can take those people skillsand that organization that's
really desired from a leadershipposition and then marry it
to operational expertise thatyou gain over time or you've
gained as a project manager.
In my case, in the past myexpertise was in research.
(18:26):
And so moving into a leadershiprole, some type of a managerial
or even potentially as I wentforward, an executive role
where I could apply the projectmanagement expertise I had
to, the research expertisethat I gained prior to being
a project manager certainlywould lend itself to those
types of opportunities.
Another area thatI would highlight.
(18:47):
If you are a project manager,but maybe you like more of
the people side of projectmanagement, which I have to
caveat, project managementcertainly is people management,
but there is a lens of projectmanagement that is very
involved with project changeand how it affects people.
Anytime you embark on aproject, it's almost always
something new and thereforeit's going to affect a process.
(19:10):
Therefore affect a personand change the way in
which they do their work.
And so in my organization andobviously out there as well,
there are opportunities tobecome or to take on roles
as a change manager, whereyou are more focused on
the people side of change.
And how do you effectivelyengage people so that
(19:31):
they buy into that change.
So if you're not so processoriented, because project
management very much falls onthe side of, here are the steps
we need to take to move fromplace A to place B. If you're
much more interested in how dowe get people to embrace getting
from point A to point B, changemanagement would certainly be
(19:53):
a great opportunity for you.
And those skill sets arevery translatable as far
as, again, the soft skillsand working with people.
I would certainly suggestthat as a potential
opportunity as well.
Kelsey Alpaio (20:04):
What is one thing our listeners could
start doing this week to movecloser to a senior PM role?
Logan Langin (20:10):
I've got a more of a philosophical thought to this.
One thing that theycould be doing this week.
I certainly think froman actionable standpoint,
really take some time to.
Do a skills gap analysison what you have versus
what you don't today.
Sit down and really thinkthrough what are the projects
(20:32):
that I've done in my careerand what is a senior project
manager role looking for?
What am I seeing inthe job descriptions?
What am I hearingin the interviews?
What am I hearing from othersenior PMs, and where are
those gaps for me and how canI start developing out those
skills over the course of thenext three months, six months?
(20:53):
Certainly don't stop applying.
But if there are gaps thatyou're identifying in that
skills gap analysis, startworking on them and start
incorporating some of thatinformation into your resume to
make you a stronger candidate.
But something I would certainlysay to project managers as
they're going through thisprocess, and they might
feel like I did where theywere, felt like they were
getting rejected constantlyand they weren't necessarily
(21:15):
representing themselves aswell as they would've liked.
I can certainlyempathize with that.
It's a lonely feeling.
Give yourself grace.
Recognize that these thingstake a lot of time, and for
the most part, the way thatyou're gonna succeed in this
is through trial and error.
You're going to putyourself out there.
You're gonna get rejected.
Make sure that you're evaluatingwhy you're getting rejected.
(21:37):
Where are the areas that you'rehearing, either repeated areas
where you should be workingon or marketing yourself
better, and start takingthose things into account and.
Again, if you already havethat skillset, awesome.
Start incorporating it intothe language that you're
using in your resume, aswell as in interviews.
If you don't start to thinkabout how you can start
(21:59):
building and incorporatingthat as soon as possible.
Kelsey Alpaio (22:02):
Great.
Great note to end on.
Thank you so much for spendingtime with us today, Logan.
Logan Langin (22:07):
Absolutely.
I appreciate theoffer to be here.
Thank you.
Kelsey Alpaio (22:15):
That's it for today's Retro.
Be sure to follow the showso you never miss an episode.
And if you wanna keep theconversation going with
a crew of a thousand plusproject management pros
who get it, come join usat thedpm.com/membership.
Thanks for listening!
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