April 1, 2025 • 21 mins
Breaking into project management can feel overwhelming, but the biggest challenge isn’t lack of experience—it’s learning to translate your skills effectively.
In this episode, host Kelsey Alpaio speaks with Ogaga Johnson, founder and CEO of Verisult, about how professionals can position themselves for their first PM role. Ogaga emphasizes the importance of a strategic job search, focusing on industries where your background provides a natural entry point. Whether you’re transitioning careers or formalizing your PM skills, this episode provides actionable steps to land your first role.
Resources from this episode:
- Join DPM Membership
- Subscribe to the newsletter to get our latest articles and podcasts
- Connect with Ogaga on LinkedIn and Instagram
- Check out Verisult
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kelsey Alpaio (00:05):
Hey everyone, and welcome to the Digital
Project Manager podcast.
I'm Kelsey Alpaio, andtoday we're tackling a big
topic—how do you land yourfirst project manager role?
Maybe you've been unofficiallymanaging projects for a while
and you're ready to make itofficial, or maybe you're
pivoting from another careerand wondering, how do I actually
(00:26):
convince hiring managersthat I have what it takes?
We're breaking it all down,what skills you actually need,
how to position yourself onyour resume and in interviews,
and what challenges youmight face along the way.
And thankfully, we'vegot an incredible guest
with us here today tohelp us navigate it all.
Ogaga Johnson, founder andCEO of Verisult, a training
(00:47):
and consulting firm that helpspeople break into in-demand
careers like project management.
Ogaga, welcome to the show!
Ogaga Johnson (00:56):
Thank you so much Kelsey.
I'm excited to be here.
Kelsey Alpaio (00:59):
So why don't you start by telling us a
little bit about yourselfand the work that you do.
Ogaga Johnson (01:03):
Yeah.
So like you already mentioned,thank you for that introduction.
I'm Ogaga Johnson andpassionately at the core of
all that I do at my team.
All that we do atVerisult is about people
building and empowerment.
One of the core thingswe do is we help career
professionals, especiallyimmigrants, to kickstart
(01:23):
and thrive in their careers.
Now, not just any career,but we're focusing on the
in-demand careers becausethose are careers that are
projected to have a massive.
In terms of need, interms of people to work.
So we are helping to tacklethe labor shortage basically,
and ensure that we build andequip people to take up this in
(01:45):
demand roles that are upcoming.
And some are righthere, right now.
Kelsey Alpaio (01:49):
Awesome.
Let's get right into it.
What do you think is thehardest part about finding
and landing that first projectmanagement role or title?
Ogaga Johnson (01:57):
Just working with over thousands of people who
want to move into the projectmanagement role across like
the UK, Canada, and the US.
One of the most commonthings I've seen is literally
even having interviews.
Because if you are not able tospeak to a hiring manager or to
really, communicate your value,you won't have the opportunity
(02:19):
to even get to an offer stage.
So that process of being ableto translate their skills,
their experiences, to speakto the value they have and can
offer for project managementroles is the biggest.
Huddle that I see lots ofpeople fix, especially folks
who want to transition that.
I haven't gotten the officialprojects management title ever.
(02:41):
I wanna move.
That is always the struggle.
How can I translate what Icurrently do or my experiences
to this role that I know I cando, but may not necessarily
have had the title for it?
Kelsey Alpaio (02:55):
So what are some of those skills that you
should have and that you shouldhighlight on your resume in
order to get those interviewsif you're applying for your
first project manager role?
Ogaga Johnson (03:05):
I would say the first thing is to understand
each individual different.
We are all unique.
We have unique experiences,unique backgrounds.
Some of us may have thesame education, when you
go to university, we don'ttake in the same thing
in those classes, right?
So we all have unique makeup.
So first is to understand whatis the value that I will bring
(03:25):
to the project management space.
There's no point.
We have this slogan thatwe play around with at
various our people, likewe say, oh, don't mesh in.
Go your resume.
Throw it everywhere.
Be strategic.
What is my uniquevalue proposition?
We do it a lot, in business,in marketing, in business.
And what's your businessunique value proposition.
The same thing with career.
(03:46):
In career.
You are selling yourskills and services.
So think of it like a business.
So what is the unique valueproposition that will set you
apart from every other person?
Millions of people whoare looking for the same
project management role?
So that's the first thing.
So for example, someone maysay, oh, I've been working
in the event planningspace for a while now.
But technically that'sproject management.
(04:08):
Okay.
Maybe what you can do istransition into a project
manager or project coordinatorrole within the event space,
whether it's a not-for-profit,because not-for-profits
do a lot of events.
Or it could even be in termsof a big organization, maybe in
their marketing, because theydo lots of marketing events.
But look at what ismy unique proposition?
Where do I have so much valuedexperience, industry experience?
(04:31):
And because of that, whatindustry can I easily
transition into to getinto project management?
That may not be your dream role.
'cause someone may say,Hey, I'm looking to lead
the event space, please.
But that is a way to startbecause how you start doesn't
mean that's how you'll finish,but that's a way to start.
And from there, you startbuilding up to become a
project management expert andthen you can move forward.
(04:54):
So that's the first thing.
Understand what your valueproposition is, what's industry
you should target becauseof your value proposition
that you've identified.
And the next thing is thatevery job is different.
You can't be using the sameresume for every single job.
I know this is the thing Nojob seeker wants to hear.
In fact, they alwaysask me for the shortcut.
(05:15):
No job seeker wants tohear this, but that's the
truth because I hire lotsof project managers, for
different organizations andform organization as well.
And one thing I look atis, hey, whose resume
proves that they can dothe work I want them to do.
Those are the people Iinvite for interviews.
So even if your grades, I don'tknow you, so I can't tell your
(05:39):
grades if your resume doesn'tpoint that you are great.
Not just in terms of gradegenerally, but grades to meet
that pain points that I haveor that value that I need this
resource to come and deliverwithin the organization.
So you need totailor your resume.
You need to know, understandhow to read job descriptions.
Highlight, what is this thing?
This company really wantsthe person that they're going
(06:01):
to hire to have, what valuedo they want this person to
give and align your valueto show that you are the
person that can deliverthat value in your resume.
So those are the two mainthings that I would say align
your resume for every job.
First of all, understandthe value you have.
'cause if I see risk, a jobadd, and I realize that I don't
(06:21):
really have that value, right?
Not because I cannot have thatvalue, but right now, that's
where my value proposition,maybe that's not a job I
should apply to becausethat's a waste of my time.
And it's a lot of emotionalstress when you get so
much rejections, right?
So understand your valueproposition apply to
roles that align with it.
Those two tips are my top.
Kelsey Alpaio (06:41):
Yeah.
You mentioned a littlebit that there might be
certain industries or typesof project management that
are easier to break into.
What are some of thoseindustries that folks should
look into if they are tryingto land that first role?
Ogaga Johnson (06:53):
That's a very good question because, some
people may not necessarilybe an expert in one industry,
there's no real likelevel playing field there.
I will say that right now we'reseeing an increase depending on
the country you're in as well.
But in Canada, we'reseeing an increase in the
not-for-profit associations.
That is one thing thatI've noticed recently.
And these associations arelooking for capacity in
(07:16):
terms of they need capacity.
And there most of theseorganizations do projects,
different types of projects,and they need people with
project management skills.
Even if the title may notbe project coordinator or
project manager, they needpeople with those skills.
So that's a goodindustry to target.
Obviously, not-for-profitwouldn't pay as high
as for some, not all.
Some not-for-profits, won'tpay as high as for profit
(07:38):
organizations, but the amountof experience you're likely
to gain from there, a oneyear experience could be an
equivalent to a two yearsexperience somewhere else.
So that's a good place as well.
And also we have so much upand coming tech companies,
tech startups with thewhole innovation, the
technologies ever changing.
Those organizations startwith as well, because
(07:58):
startups need people to grow.
And to scale whateverproduct they have.
So if you can showcase yourvalue to a founder or to
people who are executiveswithin an organization, you
are more likely to get atrial and then prove yourself
in those organizations.
So two main industries orsectors that I would point to.
Kelsey Alpaio (08:17):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
And so you did talk a littlebit about understanding
your value and making surethat's evident on your
resume and in interviews.
But are there core skills?
Are there tools, methodologiesthat like every person who is
applying for a PM role needsto have to even be considered.
What are some of those skillsthat if you don't have at
(08:38):
this moment, like you needto start building ASAP?
Ogaga Johnson (08:41):
Absolutely.
They are core skills, infact, project management in
terms of, so we know we havethe Global Project Management
Institute, we have some otherbodies that we like, say,
regulate projects management,if I should say that word.
And they've even made thosethings easy when you talk
about the principles or theprocesses that every PM.
Might in their lifetime haveto go through of, okay, so for
(09:03):
example, I think at the coreand the basic side, because
we have AI that does someof the technical things, the
day-to-day administrative tasksthat project managers could do.
But one thing AI wouldn'tdo is effectively understand
how to communicate to people.
Because individuals,people, we change.
Every single day,our mood changes.
(09:24):
Our emotions change, right?
So one thing is, how do Icommunicate communication?
PMs communicate over90% of the time, we are
always communicating.
So how to effectivelycommunicate is key.
And communication also tiesto stakeholder management.
In project management, you'reworking a lot with people.
You're trying to influencepeople to get things done.
So building your capacity oryour skillset to relate with
(09:48):
people, great interpersonalskills, to relate with people,
to negotiate with people,even if you don't call, use
the word negotiation, butwhen you're trying to get.
You know your team member,this is a task that you're
meant to do, and this is whenyou're meant to do it and
trying to get them to do it.
You are literally negotiatingand you are influencing them.
So understand how tobuild relationships.
(10:08):
Those are some ofthe core things.
So stakeholder engagement,communication skills
are core skills.
And then just the fundamentalsof how to deliver a project.
Whether it's from the planningto how to execute, to how
to ensure that it's goingaccording to track and if it's
not bringing it back to track.
Those are some of the coreskills, regardless of the
methodology you're using,whether it's waterfall, it's
(10:30):
agile, or it's hybrid, right?
Understanding justthe fundamentals of
how to take an idea.
And bring it tolife is the core.
I think if you don't havethat, that is project
management in summary.
So that's the core thingyou know you should have.
And then obviously implementingwith the people skills.
Kelsey Alpaio (10:49):
We talk about accidental project
managers all the time.
People who are alreadymanaging projects in their
day-to-day work, but don't havethat project manager title.
I'm wondering like how muchof this transition into a
formal project managementrole is about confidence, like
having the confidence to callyourself a project manager and
(11:09):
really owning your experience.
Ogaga Johnson (11:11):
So first of all, I believe that everyone
has product management skills.
So that is my own idea, andthat's because if you have
been working a job, I don'twanna give a number of years,
but let me just say, okay, forat least two to three years.
You probably have done somethingproject management related
because every organizationhas to do projects because of
(11:32):
change, because of innovation,because of improvements.
So you most likely have beenpart of a project, especially
if you worked in the Covid era,you have been part of a project
because there were things thatcompanies had to do to ensure
people could work from home.
That was a project.
'cause once they had done it,the next thing was it was done.
The only thing else theycould do, and that was
maybe improve the process.
(11:53):
And that's alsoproject management.
So I truly believe thateveryone has project management
skills if you have worked atleast for above two years.
I always advise lots of peoplethat I speak to identify their
project management experience.
Are there a set of activitiesthat you did to bring in a
change or a specific result?
(12:15):
That was finite in termsof how the start time at
an end time was, is notnecessarily operations.
And when I say that, theyrealize, oh yeah, there's a
time that, we had to improve it.
Part circle of audits, auditcame back that this was.
We need, you set one controlor the other, and then we,
I was part of the team.
Even if I didn't lead theteam, I was part of the team.
I'm like, yeah, that is youbeing part of a project.
(12:37):
Once you can, once people canidentify the skills, I feel
like transitioning to projectmanagement will be a lot
less hard, and that is wherethe confidence will come in.
Because when I speak to lotsof people, the reason why
they're not confident is becausethey feel imposter syndrome.
Do I really know how to do this?
'cause I'm transitioning,can I really call myself,
(12:57):
a project coordinatoror a project manager?
But I'm like, if youhave done it, you can.
So I will tell you that thenumber one struggle I have
in my students is mindsets.
So I do a lot of mindsetreshaping that, hey, if
you're not confident aboutthe skill that you're
doing an interview for.
I hiring manager, how do youwant me to be confident in
(13:18):
you if you're not confidentin yourself, and I can smell
it from a mile away whenI'm doing those interviews.
So first of all, you have tounderstand that what you have,
especially if you've done someupskilling, you know you have
worked on yourself, or youhave identified your belief
that you have that value.
So you have identified yourprogram mentor experience
your skills, you knowyour value proposition,
(13:39):
it's yours, so believe it.
If worst case scenario,have a brag sheet.
You have, this is what I'vedone in project and use because
facts beat Inpost syndromeevery time because you can't
lie to fact, this is the factI was able to deliver this
process improvement project.
It's a fact.
So have those stories ofwhat you have done and when
(14:01):
you have those stories, youcan always go back to those
stories and interviews.
Then your recountingexperiences, and that makes
you more confident becauseyou have actually done it.
But confidence is a huge partof success in transitioning.
If you don't believe thatyou can, others most likely
will believe that you can't.
Kelsey Alpaio (14:20):
Yeah, I love the idea of facts will always
win out over imposter syndrome.
Really having those factsdown, really keeping track
of the things that you'vesucceeded and you've actually
done, and letting that leadthe way when you're looking
for one of these roles.
I love that piece.
So what are some of thebiggest mistakes people
making when trying toland their first PM title?
Ogaga Johnson (14:42):
I will say, maybe I'll mention two things.
The first thing is quick apply.
Sometimes I want to removethat feature from every job
platform 'cause I might don'tdo that quick apply whether
I'm not gonna mention anyplatform, but they all have it
almost on all the platforms.
Quick apply doesn't work.
Most times, no matter howtailored your resume is to a
(15:04):
particular industry, becausesomeone may say, oh, I'm
only applying to ProjectOne Minerals in healthcare.
So it's the same lingo.
It's the same thing everycompany's asking for.
Yes.
But someone else who hasreally gone through the job
ad and realized that yes,this is normal healthcare,
but one key thing they'relooking for here is someone who
understands process improvement.
That is one of the keythings that will be an
(15:25):
asset for this role.
And then tailors their roleto showcase their process
improvement will most likelyget an interview over you.
That I've done ageneric standard one.
'cause I tell you, 90% ofothers have done the same thing.
So what's that 10% thatwill make you stand out?
So that is one thing.
Quick apply machine gardening.
Don't do that.
Tailor your resume.
It's painful.
(15:45):
But there are differentapps that help now in terms
of AI apps that help now.
So leverage AI to do it,but ensure obviously that
whatever you use AI to do,you fact check it and you
edit it yourself as well.
That's number one thing.
The second thing is verysimilar to what I'd said before,
not understanding the valuebecause you apply to, when I
(16:07):
see these things on, socialmedia platforms, I'm like, so
I'm not meant to be praise you.
Or something like, oh,applied to 1000 jobs,
landed five interviews.
Go to one job offer.
I'm like, that is bad toreceive 900 and something
rejections that is badfor mental health, that is
bad for, evil self-esteem.
That is that is not agood way to job search.
(16:30):
So the mistake I see a lot ofpeople doing is just applying
to every and any kind of job.
No.
First of all, understandthe value that you have
in your career path.
It may not be your dreamrole, but that's your ideal
role right now to get in andgive you a foot in the door.
(16:53):
Then you can startimproving yourself.
What is it?
And then focus your energy.
Because when you're doingjob applications, lots
of energy is expended.
So you want to ensurethat you are making the
most of your energy.
So focus your energy on thejob set strategy that you
have developed for yourself.
So have a job set strategy.
(17:13):
Not having a job setstrategy and just applying
doesn't make sense.
Every business has a strategy.
Every business.
I wish lots of people know canjust change their mindset that
their career is their business.
It's a business because youare selling skills and that's
why they pay you for it.
So treat it like a businessand you start see that your
(17:34):
mindsets are changing theway you do things, right?
And that's where the idea ofentrepreneurship comes into
the career space and it'sso important to get ahead.
You have to think like anentrepreneur in career.
Kelsey Alpaio (17:48):
You talked a little bit
about rejection in there.
It sounds like that's a bigelement of this process, like
you're going to get a lot ofrejections even if you are.
Time applying to theright things like
rejection is inevitable.
How do you recommend peopledeal with that rejection and
bounce back after gettingNo after no, after no?
Ogaga Johnson (18:08):
I think you've already said it in a way.
Realize rejections will come.
So just get yourmindset on that.
And it's not negative thinking.
Rejections will come becauseto be honest, there are lots
of people looking for a job.
You're not the only one.
So rejections will come.
Just settle your mindthat I've done my best.
(18:28):
So in terms of appliedwell for it, I've looked
at it, tailored my resume,I've showcased my value.
That's what you can control.
You can't control someonedeciding that, Hey, I like
what this person wrote.
I like it like their profile,and I want to call you.
So don't focus onwhat you can control.
Focus on what you cancontrol, and the role
will come eventually.
And just realize that becauseyou can't control that aspect,
(18:51):
there'll be some negativeoutcomes like rejection.
So once you've set yourmind on that, okay, I did my
best, but this didn't comethrough perfect, that's not
for me, and just move on.
That's the one thing Ialways tell people basically.
Kelsey Alpaio (19:02):
Yeah.
I love that.
I have just one last questionfor you to wrap things up here.
If someone listening wantsto start working toward their
first PM role today, what'sone thing they can do like
right now or this week to moveforward in that direction?
Ogaga Johnson (19:18):
I will probably advise to do a career mapping
or skill gap exercise 'causeyou can do that right now.
And the reason for that is justto identify, do I have existing
project management experiencewithin my life experience, even
if it's volunteering, becauseit's not only paid work that
can give you that experience.
(19:38):
When I set off my career inproject management, it was true
volunteering in my local churchthen as a youth coordinator.
I use because that is somuch experience for project
management, dealing withpeople, getting people to get
stuff done, actually gettingvolunteers to get stuff done.
That is the hardestthing you can ever get.
Now, someone who is paid to getstuff done, you can literally
say, guy, you are paid.
Girl, you're paid, doit, but volunteers.
(19:59):
That is harder.
So I got to know how I gota lot of influencing skills
from that experience andnegotiation skills as well.
So first, just a skill audit.
What experience do I havethat fits project management?
If there's none, finecreates that experience
or find that experience.
And then what skills do Ihave that are transferable
(20:20):
from where I am now that I cantransfer to project funding
because they're similar.
So it's career mapping slashskill audits is the first thing.
'cause you needto have direction.
You don't have direction,you go anywhere.
But if you have direction,you most likely get
to your destination.
Kelsey Alpaio (20:36):
Ogaga, thanks so much for joining us today.
This has been so helpful.
Ogaga Johnso (20:40):
Thank you so much.
I enjoyed myself.
Thank you for thequestions and being here.
I'm grateful.
Kelsey Alpaio (20:50):
That's it for today's Retro.
Be sure to follow the showso you never miss an episode.
And if you wanna keep theconversation going with
a crew of a thousand plusproject management pros
who get it, come join usat thedpm.com/membership.
Thanks for listening!
Hey everyone, and welcome to the Digital
Project Manager podcast.
I'm Kelsey Alpaio, andtoday we're tackling a big
topic—how do you land yourfirst project manager role?
Maybe you've been unofficiallymanaging projects for a while
and you're ready to make itofficial, or maybe you're
pivoting from another careerand wondering, how do I actually
(00:26):
convince hiring managersthat I have what it takes?
We're breaking it all down,what skills you actually need,
how to position yourself onyour resume and in interviews,
and what challenges youmight face along the way.
And thankfully, we'vegot an incredible guest
with us here today tohelp us navigate it all.
Ogaga Johnson, founder andCEO of Verisult, a training
(00:47):
and consulting firm that helpspeople break into in-demand
careers like project management.
Ogaga, welcome to the show!
Ogaga Johnson (00:56):
Thank you so much Kelsey.
I'm excited to be here.
Kelsey Alpaio (00:59):
So why don't you start by telling us a
little bit about yourselfand the work that you do.
Ogaga Johnson (01:03):
Yeah.
So like you already mentioned,thank you for that introduction.
I'm Ogaga Johnson andpassionately at the core of
all that I do at my team.
All that we do atVerisult is about people
building and empowerment.
One of the core thingswe do is we help career
professionals, especiallyimmigrants, to kickstart
(01:23):
and thrive in their careers.
Now, not just any career,but we're focusing on the
in-demand careers becausethose are careers that are
projected to have a massive.
In terms of need, interms of people to work.
So we are helping to tacklethe labor shortage basically,
and ensure that we build andequip people to take up this in
(01:45):
demand roles that are upcoming.
And some are righthere, right now.
Kelsey Alpaio (01:49):
Awesome.
Let's get right into it.
What do you think is thehardest part about finding
and landing that first projectmanagement role or title?
Ogaga Johnson (01:57):
Just working with over thousands of people who
want to move into the projectmanagement role across like
the UK, Canada, and the US.
One of the most commonthings I've seen is literally
even having interviews.
Because if you are not able tospeak to a hiring manager or to
really, communicate your value,you won't have the opportunity
(02:19):
to even get to an offer stage.
So that process of being ableto translate their skills,
their experiences, to speakto the value they have and can
offer for project managementroles is the biggest.
Huddle that I see lots ofpeople fix, especially folks
who want to transition that.
I haven't gotten the officialprojects management title ever.
(02:41):
I wanna move.
That is always the struggle.
How can I translate what Icurrently do or my experiences
to this role that I know I cando, but may not necessarily
have had the title for it?
Kelsey Alpaio (02:55):
So what are some of those skills that you
should have and that you shouldhighlight on your resume in
order to get those interviewsif you're applying for your
first project manager role?
Ogaga Johnson (03:05):
I would say the first thing is to understand
each individual different.
We are all unique.
We have unique experiences,unique backgrounds.
Some of us may have thesame education, when you
go to university, we don'ttake in the same thing
in those classes, right?
So we all have unique makeup.
So first is to understand whatis the value that I will bring
(03:25):
to the project management space.
There's no point.
We have this slogan thatwe play around with at
various our people, likewe say, oh, don't mesh in.
Go your resume.
Throw it everywhere.
Be strategic.
What is my uniquevalue proposition?
We do it a lot, in business,in marketing, in business.
And what's your businessunique value proposition.
The same thing with career.
(03:46):
In career.
You are selling yourskills and services.
So think of it like a business.
So what is the unique valueproposition that will set you
apart from every other person?
Millions of people whoare looking for the same
project management role?
So that's the first thing.
So for example, someone maysay, oh, I've been working
in the event planningspace for a while now.
But technically that'sproject management.
(04:08):
Okay.
Maybe what you can do istransition into a project
manager or project coordinatorrole within the event space,
whether it's a not-for-profit,because not-for-profits
do a lot of events.
Or it could even be in termsof a big organization, maybe in
their marketing, because theydo lots of marketing events.
But look at what ismy unique proposition?
Where do I have so much valuedexperience, industry experience?
(04:31):
And because of that, whatindustry can I easily
transition into to getinto project management?
That may not be your dream role.
'cause someone may say,Hey, I'm looking to lead
the event space, please.
But that is a way to startbecause how you start doesn't
mean that's how you'll finish,but that's a way to start.
And from there, you startbuilding up to become a
project management expert andthen you can move forward.
(04:54):
So that's the first thing.
Understand what your valueproposition is, what's industry
you should target becauseof your value proposition
that you've identified.
And the next thing is thatevery job is different.
You can't be using the sameresume for every single job.
I know this is the thing Nojob seeker wants to hear.
In fact, they alwaysask me for the shortcut.
(05:15):
No job seeker wants tohear this, but that's the
truth because I hire lotsof project managers, for
different organizations andform organization as well.
And one thing I look atis, hey, whose resume
proves that they can dothe work I want them to do.
Those are the people Iinvite for interviews.
So even if your grades, I don'tknow you, so I can't tell your
(05:39):
grades if your resume doesn'tpoint that you are great.
Not just in terms of gradegenerally, but grades to meet
that pain points that I haveor that value that I need this
resource to come and deliverwithin the organization.
So you need totailor your resume.
You need to know, understandhow to read job descriptions.
Highlight, what is this thing?
This company really wantsthe person that they're going
(06:01):
to hire to have, what valuedo they want this person to
give and align your valueto show that you are the
person that can deliverthat value in your resume.
So those are the two mainthings that I would say align
your resume for every job.
First of all, understandthe value you have.
'cause if I see risk, a jobadd, and I realize that I don't
(06:21):
really have that value, right?
Not because I cannot have thatvalue, but right now, that's
where my value proposition,maybe that's not a job I
should apply to becausethat's a waste of my time.
And it's a lot of emotionalstress when you get so
much rejections, right?
So understand your valueproposition apply to
roles that align with it.
Those two tips are my top.
Kelsey Alpaio (06:41):
Yeah.
You mentioned a littlebit that there might be
certain industries or typesof project management that
are easier to break into.
What are some of thoseindustries that folks should
look into if they are tryingto land that first role?
Ogaga Johnson (06:53):
That's a very good question because, some
people may not necessarilybe an expert in one industry,
there's no real likelevel playing field there.
I will say that right now we'reseeing an increase depending on
the country you're in as well.
But in Canada, we'reseeing an increase in the
not-for-profit associations.
That is one thing thatI've noticed recently.
And these associations arelooking for capacity in
(07:16):
terms of they need capacity.
And there most of theseorganizations do projects,
different types of projects,and they need people with
project management skills.
Even if the title may notbe project coordinator or
project manager, they needpeople with those skills.
So that's a goodindustry to target.
Obviously, not-for-profitwouldn't pay as high
as for some, not all.
Some not-for-profits, won'tpay as high as for profit
(07:38):
organizations, but the amountof experience you're likely
to gain from there, a oneyear experience could be an
equivalent to a two yearsexperience somewhere else.
So that's a good place as well.
And also we have so much upand coming tech companies,
tech startups with thewhole innovation, the
technologies ever changing.
Those organizations startwith as well, because
(07:58):
startups need people to grow.
And to scale whateverproduct they have.
So if you can showcase yourvalue to a founder or to
people who are executiveswithin an organization, you
are more likely to get atrial and then prove yourself
in those organizations.
So two main industries orsectors that I would point to.
Kelsey Alpaio (08:17):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
And so you did talk a littlebit about understanding
your value and making surethat's evident on your
resume and in interviews.
But are there core skills?
Are there tools, methodologiesthat like every person who is
applying for a PM role needsto have to even be considered.
What are some of those skillsthat if you don't have at
(08:38):
this moment, like you needto start building ASAP?
Ogaga Johnson (08:41):
Absolutely.
They are core skills, infact, project management in
terms of, so we know we havethe Global Project Management
Institute, we have some otherbodies that we like, say,
regulate projects management,if I should say that word.
And they've even made thosethings easy when you talk
about the principles or theprocesses that every PM.
Might in their lifetime haveto go through of, okay, so for
(09:03):
example, I think at the coreand the basic side, because
we have AI that does someof the technical things, the
day-to-day administrative tasksthat project managers could do.
But one thing AI wouldn'tdo is effectively understand
how to communicate to people.
Because individuals,people, we change.
Every single day,our mood changes.
(09:24):
Our emotions change, right?
So one thing is, how do Icommunicate communication?
PMs communicate over90% of the time, we are
always communicating.
So how to effectivelycommunicate is key.
And communication also tiesto stakeholder management.
In project management, you'reworking a lot with people.
You're trying to influencepeople to get things done.
So building your capacity oryour skillset to relate with
(09:48):
people, great interpersonalskills, to relate with people,
to negotiate with people,even if you don't call, use
the word negotiation, butwhen you're trying to get.
You know your team member,this is a task that you're
meant to do, and this is whenyou're meant to do it and
trying to get them to do it.
You are literally negotiatingand you are influencing them.
So understand how tobuild relationships.
(10:08):
Those are some ofthe core things.
So stakeholder engagement,communication skills
are core skills.
And then just the fundamentalsof how to deliver a project.
Whether it's from the planningto how to execute, to how
to ensure that it's goingaccording to track and if it's
not bringing it back to track.
Those are some of the coreskills, regardless of the
methodology you're using,whether it's waterfall, it's
(10:30):
agile, or it's hybrid, right?
Understanding justthe fundamentals of
how to take an idea.
And bring it tolife is the core.
I think if you don't havethat, that is project
management in summary.
So that's the core thingyou know you should have.
And then obviously implementingwith the people skills.
Kelsey Alpaio (10:49):
We talk about accidental project
managers all the time.
People who are alreadymanaging projects in their
day-to-day work, but don't havethat project manager title.
I'm wondering like how muchof this transition into a
formal project managementrole is about confidence, like
having the confidence to callyourself a project manager and
(11:09):
really owning your experience.
Ogaga Johnson (11:11):
So first of all, I believe that everyone
has product management skills.
So that is my own idea, andthat's because if you have
been working a job, I don'twanna give a number of years,
but let me just say, okay, forat least two to three years.
You probably have done somethingproject management related
because every organizationhas to do projects because of
(11:32):
change, because of innovation,because of improvements.
So you most likely have beenpart of a project, especially
if you worked in the Covid era,you have been part of a project
because there were things thatcompanies had to do to ensure
people could work from home.
That was a project.
'cause once they had done it,the next thing was it was done.
The only thing else theycould do, and that was
maybe improve the process.
(11:53):
And that's alsoproject management.
So I truly believe thateveryone has project management
skills if you have worked atleast for above two years.
I always advise lots of peoplethat I speak to identify their
project management experience.
Are there a set of activitiesthat you did to bring in a
change or a specific result?
(12:15):
That was finite in termsof how the start time at
an end time was, is notnecessarily operations.
And when I say that, theyrealize, oh yeah, there's a
time that, we had to improve it.
Part circle of audits, auditcame back that this was.
We need, you set one controlor the other, and then we,
I was part of the team.
Even if I didn't lead theteam, I was part of the team.
I'm like, yeah, that is youbeing part of a project.
(12:37):
Once you can, once people canidentify the skills, I feel
like transitioning to projectmanagement will be a lot
less hard, and that is wherethe confidence will come in.
Because when I speak to lotsof people, the reason why
they're not confident is becausethey feel imposter syndrome.
Do I really know how to do this?
'cause I'm transitioning,can I really call myself,
(12:57):
a project coordinatoror a project manager?
But I'm like, if youhave done it, you can.
So I will tell you that thenumber one struggle I have
in my students is mindsets.
So I do a lot of mindsetreshaping that, hey, if
you're not confident aboutthe skill that you're
doing an interview for.
I hiring manager, how do youwant me to be confident in
(13:18):
you if you're not confidentin yourself, and I can smell
it from a mile away whenI'm doing those interviews.
So first of all, you have tounderstand that what you have,
especially if you've done someupskilling, you know you have
worked on yourself, or youhave identified your belief
that you have that value.
So you have identified yourprogram mentor experience
your skills, you knowyour value proposition,
(13:39):
it's yours, so believe it.
If worst case scenario,have a brag sheet.
You have, this is what I'vedone in project and use because
facts beat Inpost syndromeevery time because you can't
lie to fact, this is the factI was able to deliver this
process improvement project.
It's a fact.
So have those stories ofwhat you have done and when
(14:01):
you have those stories, youcan always go back to those
stories and interviews.
Then your recountingexperiences, and that makes
you more confident becauseyou have actually done it.
But confidence is a huge partof success in transitioning.
If you don't believe thatyou can, others most likely
will believe that you can't.
Kelsey Alpaio (14:20):
Yeah, I love the idea of facts will always
win out over imposter syndrome.
Really having those factsdown, really keeping track
of the things that you'vesucceeded and you've actually
done, and letting that leadthe way when you're looking
for one of these roles.
I love that piece.
So what are some of thebiggest mistakes people
making when trying toland their first PM title?
Ogaga Johnson (14:42):
I will say, maybe I'll mention two things.
The first thing is quick apply.
Sometimes I want to removethat feature from every job
platform 'cause I might don'tdo that quick apply whether
I'm not gonna mention anyplatform, but they all have it
almost on all the platforms.
Quick apply doesn't work.
Most times, no matter howtailored your resume is to a
(15:04):
particular industry, becausesomeone may say, oh, I'm
only applying to ProjectOne Minerals in healthcare.
So it's the same lingo.
It's the same thing everycompany's asking for.
Yes.
But someone else who hasreally gone through the job
ad and realized that yes,this is normal healthcare,
but one key thing they'relooking for here is someone who
understands process improvement.
That is one of the keythings that will be an
(15:25):
asset for this role.
And then tailors their roleto showcase their process
improvement will most likelyget an interview over you.
That I've done ageneric standard one.
'cause I tell you, 90% ofothers have done the same thing.
So what's that 10% thatwill make you stand out?
So that is one thing.
Quick apply machine gardening.
Don't do that.
Tailor your resume.
It's painful.
(15:45):
But there are differentapps that help now in terms
of AI apps that help now.
So leverage AI to do it,but ensure obviously that
whatever you use AI to do,you fact check it and you
edit it yourself as well.
That's number one thing.
The second thing is verysimilar to what I'd said before,
not understanding the valuebecause you apply to, when I
(16:07):
see these things on, socialmedia platforms, I'm like, so
I'm not meant to be praise you.
Or something like, oh,applied to 1000 jobs,
landed five interviews.
Go to one job offer.
I'm like, that is bad toreceive 900 and something
rejections that is badfor mental health, that is
bad for, evil self-esteem.
That is that is not agood way to job search.
(16:30):
So the mistake I see a lot ofpeople doing is just applying
to every and any kind of job.
No.
First of all, understandthe value that you have
in your career path.
It may not be your dreamrole, but that's your ideal
role right now to get in andgive you a foot in the door.
(16:53):
Then you can startimproving yourself.
What is it?
And then focus your energy.
Because when you're doingjob applications, lots
of energy is expended.
So you want to ensurethat you are making the
most of your energy.
So focus your energy on thejob set strategy that you
have developed for yourself.
So have a job set strategy.
(17:13):
Not having a job setstrategy and just applying
doesn't make sense.
Every business has a strategy.
Every business.
I wish lots of people know canjust change their mindset that
their career is their business.
It's a business because youare selling skills and that's
why they pay you for it.
So treat it like a businessand you start see that your
(17:34):
mindsets are changing theway you do things, right?
And that's where the idea ofentrepreneurship comes into
the career space and it'sso important to get ahead.
You have to think like anentrepreneur in career.
Kelsey Alpaio (17:48):
You talked a little bit
about rejection in there.
It sounds like that's a bigelement of this process, like
you're going to get a lot ofrejections even if you are.
Time applying to theright things like
rejection is inevitable.
How do you recommend peopledeal with that rejection and
bounce back after gettingNo after no, after no?
Ogaga Johnson (18:08):
I think you've already said it in a way.
Realize rejections will come.
So just get yourmindset on that.
And it's not negative thinking.
Rejections will come becauseto be honest, there are lots
of people looking for a job.
You're not the only one.
So rejections will come.
Just settle your mindthat I've done my best.
(18:28):
So in terms of appliedwell for it, I've looked
at it, tailored my resume,I've showcased my value.
That's what you can control.
You can't control someonedeciding that, Hey, I like
what this person wrote.
I like it like their profile,and I want to call you.
So don't focus onwhat you can control.
Focus on what you cancontrol, and the role
will come eventually.
And just realize that becauseyou can't control that aspect,
(18:51):
there'll be some negativeoutcomes like rejection.
So once you've set yourmind on that, okay, I did my
best, but this didn't comethrough perfect, that's not
for me, and just move on.
That's the one thing Ialways tell people basically.
Kelsey Alpaio (19:02):
Yeah.
I love that.
I have just one last questionfor you to wrap things up here.
If someone listening wantsto start working toward their
first PM role today, what'sone thing they can do like
right now or this week to moveforward in that direction?
Ogaga Johnson (19:18):
I will probably advise to do a career mapping
or skill gap exercise 'causeyou can do that right now.
And the reason for that is justto identify, do I have existing
project management experiencewithin my life experience, even
if it's volunteering, becauseit's not only paid work that
can give you that experience.
(19:38):
When I set off my career inproject management, it was true
volunteering in my local churchthen as a youth coordinator.
I use because that is somuch experience for project
management, dealing withpeople, getting people to get
stuff done, actually gettingvolunteers to get stuff done.
That is the hardestthing you can ever get.
Now, someone who is paid to getstuff done, you can literally
say, guy, you are paid.
Girl, you're paid, doit, but volunteers.
(19:59):
That is harder.
So I got to know how I gota lot of influencing skills
from that experience andnegotiation skills as well.
So first, just a skill audit.
What experience do I havethat fits project management?
If there's none, finecreates that experience
or find that experience.
And then what skills do Ihave that are transferable
(20:20):
from where I am now that I cantransfer to project funding
because they're similar.
So it's career mapping slashskill audits is the first thing.
'cause you needto have direction.
You don't have direction,you go anywhere.
But if you have direction,you most likely get
to your destination.
Kelsey Alpaio (20:36):
Ogaga, thanks so much for joining us today.
This has been so helpful.
Ogaga Johnso (20:40):
Thank you so much.
I enjoyed myself.
Thank you for thequestions and being here.
I'm grateful.
Kelsey Alpaio (20:50):
That's it for today's Retro.
Be sure to follow the showso you never miss an episode.
And if you wanna keep theconversation going with
a crew of a thousand plusproject management pros
who get it, come join usat thedpm.com/membership.
Thanks for listening!
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