Why Listening to Your Body Is a Leadership Superpower

Episode Transcript
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Galen Low (00:22):
Is it normal for work to trigger fight or flight?
Is this just agency life orhave we normalized something
that's actually broken?

Abigail Jones (00:30):
I would say it is common, but that doesn't mean
that it's normal or sustainable.
The way that the world issituated is such that ignoring
our bodies has become normal.

Galen Low (00:42):
What happens when people aren't having
a discharge dance party?
They're taking on theproblems that they're
responsible for, but aren'tdoing anything with them.
How does that come out?

Matthew Fox (00:52):
I remember I was working in big agency.
I felt like I had thishuge weight on my chest.
I thought I washaving a heart attack.
I go into the ER, theyrun all these tests.
And they're like,Nope, you're fine.
That was just a panic attack.
I can tell other stories aboutthat, where my body was talking
to me, I just wasn't listening.

Where's time and money invested?
What is a value and worth here?

A lot of people will spend time trying
to gain wealth, and thenthey spend their wealth
trying to gain back health.

Galen Low (01:25):
Welcome to The Digital Project Manager
podcast — the show thathelps delivery leaders work
smarter, deliver faster, andlead better in the age of AI.
I'm Galen, and every week wedive into real world strategies,
new tools, proven frameworks,and the occasional war story
from the project front lines.
Whether you are steeringmassive transformation
projects, wrangling AIworkflows, or just trying to

(01:45):
keep the chaos under control,you're in the right place.
Let's get into it.
Okay, today we are talkingabout the impact of listening
to our bodies and developingstrategies around our body
intelligence to become betterleaders in an increasingly
technology dominated worldof team collaboration.
My guests today are bothleadership coaches and operation

(02:06):
specialists who happen to beon similar missions to help
senior agency professionalsbecome more effective leaders
by tapping into what theirbodies are telling them and
arming them with strategiesto leverage those responses
instead of ignoring them.
Abigail Jones is anorganizational design and
development strategist whoserves dual roles as Founder
and President of Lead withAbigail, as well as Chief

(02:29):
Operating Officer of Southleft,a boutique agency specializing
in design system developmentand AI driven web applications
for enterprise clients.
She implements customoperational frameworks and
leadership programs foragency owners working with
organizations like Big Seaand Stratosphere Digital to
develop strategic facilitationskills and operational
excellence in emerging leadersthrough assessments, coaching,

(02:52):
and experiential learning.
Matthew is a senior projectmanager, operations leader,
coach, and trainer witha strong background in
competitive public speakingand conscious leadership.
Matthew is also one of ourDPM experts sharing his
knowledge with our membersthrough workshops, coaching
sessions, and his signaturereading recommendations.
Abigail, Matthew — thanksfor being with me today.

Excited to join you Galen.

That was absolutely excellent.
You have such agreat radio voice.

Galen Low (03:20):
Thank you, which I will now turn off.
I'm told that I turn it onand off for the intro, and
then I just go into regularmode, which I do not notice.
But thank you, and thanksfor both coming on the show.
I love these conversationswhere we can have two
guests because we can getmultiple perspectives.
It's a bit more like a panel.
I'm even gonna makeit a little bit spicy.
I'll come in and play devil'sadvocate a little bit, but
I'm truly excited about this.

(03:41):
I know that this topic ofconscious leadership and
understanding our bodyintelligence, like in a
work context, it's a prettybroad and complex topic.
It could send us down a coupleof unplanned but high value
rabbit holes, but just in case,here's the little roadmap that
I've sketched out for us today.
To start off, I wanted tojust get one big burning
question out of the waythat like uncomfortable but

(04:03):
pressing question that everyonewants to know the answer to.
Then I'd like to zoomout from that and talk
about three things.
Firstly, I want to explorewhat conscious leadership
is and why it matters intoday's world of work.
And then I'd like to diveinto some practical examples
of how someone could tap intotheir body intelligence to
improve their leadership.
And lastly, I'd like to putthat all through the lens
of AI, where I'll play thedevil's advocate, pushing

(04:26):
back against body intelligenceand conscious leadership.
Maybe we can get a littlebit of a debate going.
How does that sound to you?

Excellent.

Sounds great.

Galen Low (04:33):
Awesome.
Alright.
Here's the question Ireally wanna start with,
and I want you guys to bothbe like brutally honest.
Is it normal for work totrigger fight or flight?
Is this just agency life orhave we normalized something
that's actually broken?
And then if it is happeningto you regularly, what is
your body trying to tell you?
Abigail, why don'tI hit you up first?

Normal, I would say it is common, meaning that
we've made it a repeated patternacross agency life, the macro
culture, but that doesn't meanthat it's normal or sustainable.
And the thing I'm gonna bringin here, the word culture
is something that I look atboth micro and macro culture.

(05:18):
But Ed Schein has a definitionof organizational culture that
is very long, but I honestlythink is worth reading.
And culture is the patternof basic assumptions
a group has invented,discovered, or developed.
In learning to cope with itsproblems of external adaption

(05:38):
and internal integration,and has worked well enough
to be considered valid andtrained to new members.
And so that's where I thinkwe've trained each other.
It's been a response to howagencies have to work with
enterprise and contractors.
The way that the world issituated is such that ignoring

(06:02):
our bodies has become normal.

Galen Low (06:05):
That's really interesting.
Like in other words, we mayhave developed it by accident
because of these patterns,it becomes normalized.
We think it's normal, but it'snot necessarily natural and it's
something that we could changeeven if we kind of developed
it by accident or I mean inthe agency world on purpose.
I love that.
That's a great definition.
And honestly, because cultureis such a squishy word to a

(06:27):
lot of folks, I think that'slike worth framing this whole
conversation around in terms ofthe habits we build and like the
sort of unspoken contracts thatwe build between one another.
That is the notion of work, thatis the notion of teamwork and
how our bodies play into that.

I love Oliver Sacks.
He's a qualitative medicaldoctor who describes
maladaptations quotes asbrilliant ways of coping
that have been needed maybein the past and have served
us potentially at one point,but that doesn't mean we
need to carry on that way.

Galen Low (07:00):
Very interesting.
Matthew, what's yourtake, fight or flight?
Have we normalized it?
Is it agency life, culture?
And if it's not something that'sas great as we thought it was
over the past couple of decades?
Where can we go with it?

It's an interesting question because
I think we've evolved froma standpoint of living in
a world of constant danger.
So we evolved from that.
You know, we have to survive.
We have to putfood on our plate.
We have to find a safe place tolive, and we're actually living
in a period of time that ournervous system hasn't adapted to

(07:35):
because we came from a situationthat if someone was yelling at
us or if there was a perceivedthreat in our environment,
we had to be reactive.
We had to do thatin order to survive.
Now, thankfully, we live in aworld where you can generally
walk down the street in mostplaces and feel safe, but those
threats still feel very real toour bodies in work environments.

(07:59):
And so it's very easy forour brains to jump from this
perspective of the worldis a scary place and I have
to survive to a client isnot happy about something.
And what am I supposedto do about that and
should I be reactive?
Well, 99.9% of the time,whether it's someone at work
yelling at us or even someoneat home, our nervous system

(08:22):
feels like we're in threat.
And so I think that's where alot of that reactivity comes
from and to the great pointsthat Abigail brought up.
A lot of that is bakedinto agency culture.
I would even argue it'sbaked into work culture.
I've been in thoseenvironments where I can
remember I was a lifeguardat a pool, very innocuous.

(08:45):
Like there was certainlylife or death situations
that would happen if someonewas drowning, but 99% of
the time people aren't.
And a manager came inand they, I could just
tell they were angry.
Something had happened andthey had walked up and thrown
their keys across the room.
They didn't throw itat any one person, but.
My system didn'tknow how to react.

(09:06):
At that point.
I was like, something ishappening and I didn't
even have the tools thatI have available now.
I just knew inherentlythat danger was present.
It was mainly that anotherperson was having an experience
that my nervous system wasn'tacclimated to or ready for.
And I think that happensa lot with work pressure,
where so much of agency lifeis built around delivery.

(09:27):
It's built around performance.
It's built around metrics.
I even think it's a extensionof being a consultant, and
consultants hold themselves tosuch incredibly high standards
where you will have a breakdownafter a call of what went
right, what didn't go right.
And although it's a feedbackoriented culture, it can steer

(09:48):
us into something is wrong andmy body reacts because of it.
It's hard to say ifit's the environment
inherently causing it.
It's hard to say if ournervous systems just
haven't adapted yet.
I do think that there's avery real piece where not a
lot of leadership happens inagencies, and I say that from
the standpoint of there's verylittle leadership training.

(10:10):
There's a lot of very passionatepeople trying to solve
problems, and unfortunately apretty big gap exists there.

Galen Low (10:17):
So I'm picking up whatyou're putting down.
We've evolved thisway to sense danger.
But in this day and age inwork, it's not the same danger.
Our bodies respond to it becausesomeone walks into a room and
throws their keys or yells.
That's, you know, hundredsof thousands of years of
evolution triggering us.
But we also need to likebe aware of the fact that
it's probably not a lifeand death situation at the

(10:39):
agency in the boardroom,and we need to manage that.

It's unconscious.
Like this isn't somethingwhere we're tracking that,
where we can walk in and,you know, we're in a very
expanded state until somethinghappens and then we contract.
I have a quick visual aid forthat where if you imagine like
a hoberman spear and we're goingalong and then someone yells
where our nervous system reactsbefore our brain has a chance

(11:05):
to say, oh, well this personis having an experience over
here, or I'm not in threat.
I think it's much moreabout self-awareness.
I think Abigail, youhad something to add?

Yeah, well, just thinking about the feedback
loop that you talked about indebriefs, when what went wrong,
what went well, and there'schemicals, cortisol, flooding
through our bodies, adrenaline,which can be helpful if we need
to respond quickly, which maybewe've had to do in the past,
but it might not be serving us.
But I think the conversationsaround that we have and the

(11:36):
language that we use fuelsit in ways that are subtle.
Particularly around the pushingthrough and the badge of honor
and sort of overriding our bodyawareness and the subtleties of
the information we're getting.
We tend to say, oh, I onlygot six hours of sleep
last night with a big smileand like, oh, it's so.

(11:58):
I think there's these subtlecues that are reinforcing the
feedback loops to incentivizeemerging and current leaders
to keep operating in these waysthat are unhealthy too, which
just a plug for, there's smallthings we can do to say, I
took a nap today and that feelsindulgent and counter-cultural

(12:21):
and minuscule, but that's adrop in the bucket towards,
I think taking care of yourbody that can go a long way.

Galen Low (12:28):
I love how it ties back toyour definition that you shared
earlier of culture and Matthew,the thing you said about
some of this is unconscious.
It leads us to building aculture where this is sort
of normalized in termsof ignoring our body.
I thought maybe we couldtake this opportunity to just
zoom out a bit, because bothof you have talked with me
and members of my communityabout becoming better leaders

(12:51):
by tapping into your body'slike innate intelligence.
But for listeners who mightbe skeptical or maybe new to
this concept, can you eachdefine what that actually
means, like in plain language?

It goes back to that self-awareness piece of how
am I showing up in any moment?
And then recognizing again,to use the Hoberman sphere.
If I am here and somethinghappens to my body and I'm
contracting or I'm going down,can I have enough awareness so
that way I can say, oh, my chestis tight, or my shoulders, I

(13:25):
notice they're really tense.
So I'm leaning forwardand I'm, maybe I'm.
Not leaning forward from asense of engagement, like I'm
leaning forward because I feellike I'm under danger or threat
and it's almost I, one of theexamples I use, so I have a
background in Toastmasters andI spent a lot of time working
on evaluating other speakers.
Can you put a blindfold onand just listen to what's

(13:48):
happening with the externalworld, and then can you go
back to your internal world?
And I think that's aninteresting way to practice.
The habit of self-awareness,because more often than not,
especially as project managers,we live from the head up and
it's figuring out how to go fromthe head down into the body.
And Abigail, I'm curiousabout your perspective.

Yeah, that was a great concrete example of
using your body as a tool thento rework your nervous system.
But I think at the subtlelevel, body intelligence just
involves noticing when yourjaw is tense, noticing when
you're shorter of breath.
When things are different,and then you can use that as

(14:31):
information to perhaps pausebefore you make a decision or
wait a moment before you senda Slack message when you're
feeling some kind of way.
And I think it's veryinteresting that our body
then can also be a tool.
There's a body of work, abook called Second Circle.
First circle is if you justturn your toes in, your whole

(14:52):
body sort of orients your gazeturns down, and there's times
to be in first circle whenyou're doing introspective work.
It's the do not disturb.
We all need that time.
Then just turn your toesout and you orient, and it's
this Amy Cuddy power pose.
Hands on your hips, you'reready to do an interview and
you can use your body to.
Amp up your energy when youneed to give a speech or talk

(15:16):
to a client about going overon their budget or what have
you, but that conversation,likely what could best require
is second circle, which iswhere your feet are parallel
and you're balancing yourinternal and external awareness.
You're understanding andreading facial cues in the
room and what have you, butyou're also, maybe you can

(15:37):
feel your heartbeat and notice.
What's going on?
And there was thisinteresting study about
folks on the stock market.
They took a random survey of ifthey noticed their heart rate
throughout the day, that theycould sense and feel their heart
rate, their performance in.
Investing was wildly higherthan the folks who were

(15:58):
unaware of their body.
So I think it's both theknowledge and awareness and
then being able to refine anduse your body and physiological
systems as a tool over time.

Galen Low (16:10):
What I find it super interesting is that
it impacts decision makingin other words, right?
Like, Matthew, you mentionedthat we often think from
the head up we're sort ofignoring or suppressing what
our bodies are telling us,but actually we're doing
it, we're leaning forward.
Our heart rate is increasing.
You know, we were sweatingand those signals are
actually the things wherewe're not necessarily going
to make the same decisionsas we would when we're in

(16:33):
a state of lower stress.
And being aware of that's likethat tie into the leadership
bit, which is that yeah,you're gonna make different
decisions, sometimes poordecisions under duress, whereas
you could probably make abetter decision if you gave
yourself a moment to sort ofbe more aware and present.
I think that's reallyinteresting, that notion of like

(16:53):
the external world, the internalworld, and Abigail, that thing
you mentioned about like thecircles, which I will include
a link to in the show notes.
For those listening, I'mlike trying to do them
as Abigail's talking.
I'm like, okay, I'mpointing my toes in, I'm
pointing my toes forward.
I'm pointing my toes out.
I'm putting my hands on my hips.
And there's this likephysicality that actually makes
a lot of sense in terms ofmaking us aware of the way that

(17:14):
we are feeling or responding tothe outside world, especially
in stressful work situations.
I wanna kind of get intothe benefits from there.
Like that's actually areally good jumping off
point because I think thatmakes it really clear.
But I'm sort of at aloss for like examples.
And I'm wondering if you couldmaybe each give me an example of
like what conscious leadershiplooks like in practice and

(17:35):
maybe if you can walk us throughlike a specific moment or
scenario where you've seen thisat work or where you've seen
people not doing it and it'sactually like caused problems.

Yeah.
I was working closely with aleader who was about to hire
a new person on the team.
And so there had been arecruiter involved and hundreds
of interviews to go throughto find the right candidate.
And there was at first aconfidence and excitement
in rolling motion to havethis person on board.

(18:10):
And it got to the lastinterview and just in a sort
of side informal conversation,this leader said, I just
don't feel right about it.
Like something.
Doesn't sit right andI, everything on paper
suggests that this personwould be excellent.
There's something not right,and I double taped and said,
let's pay attention to that.

(18:30):
And it turned out that thisperson was not emotionally
available, particularly to jumpinto a new work environment,
a high stress sales rolewhere this could happen.
So it saved the company tensof thousands of dollars to
not make this hiring decision.

(18:52):
And it's hard because there'sa sunk cost of working with
the recruiter and bringingon the right person where.
You can get into the fallacy ofthinking that you should just
keep moving forward because allof the theoretical data makes
sense, but not trusting thatintuition can make or break.
A lot of dollars atthe end of the day.

Galen Low (19:12):
That's an interesting example because there's
almost both in there, right?
There's the person makingthat hiring decision and
sort of trusting whatwe call gut instinct.
But you know, that's also asquishy term, but also even like
the candidate themselves, right?
Like if you were the candidateand being aware that maybe this
high pressure sales role, it'sprobably a bit of a stretch.
You might not be in theright head space, but you're

(19:32):
gonna go for it anyways.
Which could also lead to manymonths, if not years, of, you
know, being unhappy in a role.
Your employer's unhappy withyou, you're unhappy with them.
There's this sort ofdance, and it's interesting
the way you frame it.
'cause we say gutinstinct, trust your gut.
We say that all thetime, especially in
agency land, right?
We're like, yeah, I justgotta go with my gut on this.
We don't have time to dothe statistical analysis.
We don't have time to do theresearch, especially in the

(19:54):
hiring process where, youknow, a lot of folks are doing
like disc profiles, you know,the sort of psychographic
analysis, making them dolike a take home assignment.
And you're right that allthe data might line up
and yet your body tellsyou something different.
And sometimes that can pay off.

Which is also valid data.
We don't tend to think of ourbody sensations as valid, and
I think we can change thateven just by talking about
it and putting it down onpaper as this should be in
the budget line item or thedecision making framework.

Galen Low (20:25):
That's a fantastically good point.
It's like the validityof it we kind of ignore.
We're like, ah, it's not valid.
It's just my feelings,my gut instinct.
You know?
It's not data.
I like that framingthat actually it is.
Matthew, do you have anysort of examples, sort of
stories from the world ofconscious leadership and how
it's done and what happenswhen it's not done right.

I am sitting at my home office back in early August
and I'm having a conversationwith a coworker named Bob.
He is a very talentedcreative director, and I
could feel something was off.
We're chatting and we have aparticularly challenging client
call, and I could just tellthat Bob wasn't his normal self.

(21:08):
Bob was this type of person,very engaged, very loved
by everyone on the team.
The type of person thatwhen they walked into the
virtual room, the wholeroom would light up.
It was almost as if they werebringing the sun, which is
very funny because they livedin an area where there is a
lot of rain and we're sittingthere throughout the week
going back and forth on Slack.

(21:29):
I'm checking with Bob.
Is everything okay?
And he keeps comingback with, it's fine.
I'm just stressed,nothing to worry about.
And finally I got him on a Zoomcall and I go into him and I
say, Bob, is everything okay?
I noticed that was aparticularly challenging
client call and he came back.
I, it's fine.

(21:51):
There's nothing to worry about.
I could tell after engaging withBob that again, something was
off and in going back and forth.
I used a specific toolwith Bob to help him move
again, and I'm using theHoberman spear as an example.
Like I can tell like hehad powered down or he
wasn't showing up andthe client was noticing.

(22:12):
The team was noticing.
After going through the coachingexercise, we checked in the
following day and Bob was back.
He was a completelydifferent version of himself.
That light, that inner lifethat we have, and you may
have experienced this whenyou're working with people
where one day they come inand it was in that moment.

(22:34):
Instead of trying to fix him,I simply held space for what
was going on and he was ableto get in touch with his body.
He was able to come back tome with any fear, challenges
and other issues that weregoing on at that time.
And it was through using thetools that he moved through.
And again, it was watchingpeople's body language.
It was paying attention towhat was happening for him.

(22:56):
And I can even think backto myself in a time where
I ignored my body signals.
Agency owner and I had aconversation before a client
call, and I thought I was beingclear and telling them, here's
the scope, here's what we'redoing, here's what we should
agree to, and not we get inthe client call and the agency

(23:18):
owner and a desire to make theclient happy was over promising.
And so I am, my body wasimmediately reacting as the
project manager because, asthe owner promised timelines
that we couldn't hit and scopethat we didn't agree to, I
noticed my shoulders wereincredibly tense and I had
this like almost overwhelmingsense of like adrenaline

(23:41):
that was dunked into my body.
And instead of waiting after thecall, like I immediately called
him after the call and expressedmy frustration and anger and
it came out completely in away that I didn't want it to.
Like I was completelyin that reactive mode.
I was completely in that modewhere I was totally closed off.
I wasn't seeing thepossibilities that
were available.
I was in this narrow mindsetand it is certainly embarrassing

(24:03):
to talk about now, especiallyas someone who wants to be
able to like live and saythere's a perfect way to do it.
But if I could go back and do itagain, I would take that pause.
I would actually take abreath before providing the
feedback so I could giveit in a constructive way.
Now, thankfully theowner and I have a very
longstanding relationship.

(24:24):
It was received in thespirit and not the way it was
delivered, but it's a reallygood example of how I wasn't
seeing what was happening.
I was completely reactingand operating from that
place of reactivity.

Galen Low (24:36):
I appreciate you sharing like such
a vulnerable story andalso it's so relatable.
Like who among us has nothad that moment where, you
know, we were reactive andthen kind of regretted it.
What I like about both ofthe examples is that moment
of pause to kind of gatheryourself and figure yourself out
can do a world of difference.
The other thing I like isthat frankly, I was expecting

(24:58):
you to say, oh yeah, I satdown with Bob for a week
and we did like four hoursessions every day to teach
him about this thing so thathe was armed with the tactics.
No, none of that.
You were like, I'm holdingspace for your feelings.
I recognize this.
I am aware of a changein you, and I kind of
wanted to check in.
Even just giving that moment,you know, maybe that's not the
long and short of consciousleadership, but like, even

(25:20):
just that moment where itwasn't like, Hey, let's do
hours of training, let'sdo this activity together.
It's just like a quickthing and kind of getting
them back on track canmake a world of difference.
And again, these are thingswhere we're like, we don't
treat this as data, butall of that stuff that both
of you described is data.

And I think that's a brilliant thing that
even emerging project managerscan use when I'm mentoring folks
who are newer to this field.
Doing exactly that, Matthew,where they have a sense that
something is off, either becausethey're noticing body language
or they get a sense that theclient or somebody on their
team is off and saying, Hey,can you meet for a quick second?

(25:59):
Hopping into aseparate space and.
Even if they're like, ohno, I just had a bug in
my throat or whatever.
And it could be nothing, butit could be something, and just
giving somebody the time andspace to be seen and heard for
just a minute can be hugelypowerful and anybody can do it.
That's what I love about it.

Galen Low (26:18):
It's really interesting.

I think one quick thing to add on to that,
there's a couple things, liketrust is a huge part of it.
I think that was something I,it took a little bit of work
to like push through that.
It's like, I don'tknow you, we've never
been in the same room.
Like I only know youfrom this little window
that I'm seeing you from.
And having that empathypiece, I hear quite a bit

(26:40):
from project managers thatwe are arm share therapists.
I think that's a verychallenging position to be in
because then one of the thingsI'm playing around with is that.
If energy can't be createdor destroyed, we're
taking on that energy.
If we're acting as thatarmchair therapist for people
in the organization, and thenthat's an unhealthy place

(27:01):
for us to be, and so how canwe create that space without
taking on all that energy?

Abigai (27:06):
Discharge dance parties.

Yes.
As my mentor, Julie Caldwellcalls in like having
like a freakout party orhaving like, like, oh no,
everything is going crazy.
And then you just like,you could have a minute
where you're like, okay,you can turn your camera
off, but like for the nextminute, like just freak out.

Yeah.

Galen Low (27:22):
I wonder if we can go there.
I'm jumping around a little bit,but I think it's very relatable.
That notion of like carrying theemotional baggage for the team.
You know, being that therapist,whether you're a project leader
or just a team leader or anyonereally, any sort of professional
in the situation could bereally like absorbing some
of this like emotional energyand not being aware of it or

(27:44):
thinking it's their job and notreally being like, okay, well
I need to do something with it.
Like it's just likeit accumulates inside.
I like that idea of like havinga freakout session, but like,
are these like, you know, likeofficial tactics, like where can
somebody start dealing with orfinding an outlet for the sort
of emotional stress that they'vebeen burdening themselves with

(28:05):
from external forces like theteam or other circumstances?

One tactic I'm working on with a group
of leaders I'm doing aworkshop series with is.
A bio break and usingtimers as a facilitation
tool for yourself.
I have a watch, but youcan do it on your phone.
And Siri sent me a timer fortwo minutes and we're already
taking bio breaks, drinkingwater, using the bathroom, and

(28:32):
so typically you don't have togo right back to your screen.
Set a two minute timerand let your body move in
whatever way you want, andyou can dial between slow,
medium, and fast and knowwhat kind of pace you need.
If you are discharging intenseenergy, maybe you need to jump
around and do some jumpingjacks, or if you need to

(28:53):
amp up your energy, you canjust do whatever you need
to do in those two minutes.
It could be lying completelystill and you still check the
box and held that container foryourself to see what you need
and move in a way that feels.
Good, and I thinkthat's a good start.
That requires thatyou have some buffer.
Which you typically havemore buffer, I think,

(29:16):
than we often think.
But coming back to theorganizational culture and
how could you tell that ateam is doing this is there's
time between meetings.
There's 25 minute and 50minute meetings scheduled
instead of 30 and 60 minutethat are just off the shelf.
We just do that because it'sthe way that it's been done.
But I notice and I've heardfeedback of, I so appreciate

(29:37):
this 45 minute meeting or this.
Arbitrary amount that's moredialed into what we actually
need to do to discuss and getthe thing done, and gives me
time to be human in between.
So I think that's a tangible,visible artifact layer of
culture that you can see in aperson or a team if they are

(29:58):
making time for themselves toproperly deal with emotions
and to just be a body.
We are so physiologically animalthat we tend to just disregard
and stay heads up and that'sall we see over each other, so.

Galen Low (30:12):
I even like the phrasing of bio break because
we use it colloquially anywaysat work right now to being
like, okay, we gotta listento our bodies 'cause we
probably have to go to thebathroom every now and again.
But why would that bedifferent about listening to
the rest of our body, right?
It's like not just whatever,not just going to the bathroom,
but also taking a momentto like listen to our body,

(30:33):
to take care of our body.
And actually, Abigail,when you said it earlier.
Discharge dance parties.
I was like, oh, that's so funny.
You mean actuallydischarge dance parties?
This is a thing that likethat one can do, especially
if you're remote or can find aspace shut off your camera or
find a room, lie still dance.
Like listen to what your bodyis like telling you to do as an
outlet for some of the energythat you may have absorbed.

So there's a pretty hilarious video of a
police officer singing anddancing to shake it off.
He's singing the words of thesong, but talk about needing
to emotionally discharge.
And so I think having fun withit and making it a regular
practice of a space you'realready gonna be in your car.
Why not blast music and usethat as an opportunity to,

(31:16):
we'll edit out and say whatyou feel and just make more
space to be more human.

Galen Low (31:22):
I really like that.
That's interesting.
I wonder if I can maybe putyou both on the spot in terms
of stories about that becauseA, I'm so far like surprised,
impressed that, I don't know.
I kind of came into thisconversation thinking,
oh, I'm gonna need todo a bunch of training.
We're gonna need to likerestructure how work is done.
Around this idea ofconscious leadership so

(31:42):
everyone can kind of bemore aware of their bodies.
But so far, they've allbeen like pretty micro.
Not in an insignificant way,but in a very organic way.
It's like add some extratime, hold space, be aware.
Listen to your gut.
These are not like massivestructural changes.
But I'm wondering if maybewe can like talk through some
examples of like what happenswhen people aren't having

(32:04):
a discharge dance party,you know, and they're sort
of taking on all of these.
I keep saying emotions.
That's not theonly thing, right?
I mean, yes, stress is anemotion, anxiety, but you
know, the kind of like.
Taking on the problems thatthey're responsible for but
aren't doing anything with them.
How does that come out?

I like to use the analogy of a cup, and
similar to as this cup isfilling up, it can overflow
at a certain point, and ourbodies are energetic containers.
And what can happen is that.
As we're taking on energeticinputs, like right now, for
example, there's a lot ofanger and fear coming in from

(32:44):
mass media here in the states.
Well, if our bodies are takingthat on and then we're bringing
that into the workplace, ifwe as project managers aren't
resourced and or our teamisn't, if we do have that
challenging client situation,if we do have that scope,
budget and time piece thatstarts to go sideways, or it
can simply be that maybe we gotcut off on our way into work.

(33:09):
Starbucks didn'thave our Frappuccino,
whatever the heck latte.
All those things add up, andit's almost like a sense that
we overflow similar to thatcup, and if people aren't taking
care of this I know this usedto happen to me all the time.
I remember I was working inbig agency with huge accounts,
millions of dollars on the line.

(33:30):
I got to the end of a Tuesdayand I was just so stressed out.
I needed to do work,but I decided to take
a self-care break.
I went over, I got a massage,and I felt more stressed after
the massage and went back towork because I was holding on
to so much emotional burdenand so much emotional energy.

(33:51):
The massage didn't doanything to move that energy,
like it kind of felt nice.
But I was still holding ontoall that stress, and because I
was still holding onto all thatstress, I just brought that back
into the workplace and it justcontinued to exacerbate things.
And I even remember, andthis is a topic that I wish
people would talk more about.
I was working at discover Cardat the time, and we had, I

(34:15):
don't even know if I've toldthis story publicly before.
We had a huge meeting andmy manager happened to not
make it to the meeting.
I remember feeling anintense pressure of,
am I doing it right?
Did I say the right thingsin this meeting, my boss's
boss was there, theirboss's boss was there.
They were asking verydirect things to me.

(34:36):
So I got home later thatnight and I just, I felt like
I had this huge weight onmy chest and like I thought
I was having a heart attackor something was going on.
So I go into the er, they runall these tests and they're
like, Nope, you're fine.
That was just a panic attack.
And I can tell otherstories about that where
my body was talking to me.

(34:56):
I just wasn't listeningand I wasn't, I didn't have
that awareness of listening.

I appreciate you sharing that.
I've seen some ER visits andlong-term effects in heard of
leaders losing their visionfor short or longer periods of
time as a result of long-termstress and not dealing with it.
And it's emotionalcontagion, it leaks down.
So I worked with one leader thissummer who was only Slacking the

team between 6:00 PM and 1 (35:22):
00 AM on Thursday through Sunday.
And then the team was justbewildered and we had so
many conversations aboutwhy this was not working.
And one of the people,the directors, was getting
frustrated with his kids.
There was ripple effectsinto the community that is.

(35:42):
Unintentional, but thatbehavior has consequences.
So I think it's importantto recognize that, and I
think it's very importantto say in this conversation
that there are differentlevels of tolerance and risk
equations for when peoplecan feel and to be cognizant.
That you are not always affordedthe opportunity to feel your

(36:05):
feelings at work, to have thesebreaks to discharge in ways that
feel safe and good, and there'smore options than we think.
And people have uniquecircumstances for a variety
of reasons that puts themat different parts of the
playing field for when andhow this is accessible.

Galen Low (36:23):
I really like that.
It's funny because it's sucha murky and complex subject.
At least it was for me cominginto this conversation.
But what I like about wherewe've gone so far is it
actually makes it quite simple.
We opened with this likedefinition of culture.
We start talking aboutlistening to our bodies
and how we've evolved andhow we sort of manage this.
Matthew, I really like thatnotion of capacity, right?

(36:44):
We are a cup.
We can only be so full,it's gonna overflow if you
start at like 90% full.
Then you only have 10%capacity before you overflow,
and then you might needto do something about it.
But you can see, and liketying back to Abigail, your
story about, you know, somebodyslacking at night where I
thought you were gonna gowith it was a culture thing.
I thought it was gonna be, thisindividual started setting the

(37:06):
tone where people thought, okay,this is the way our culture is.
We should be workingbetween 6:00 PM and 1:00 AM.
But also you flipped it, whichis that everyone was like
worried about this person.
They're like, what is going on?
And Matthew ties back toyour Bob story, right about
like actually being awareof other people's behaviors
and emotions and your own.
And kind of recognizing itso that we don't perpetuate a

(37:28):
culture that we probably builtby accident of like agency, and
I say agency, but what I reallymean is like hostile culture.
And I think it's alot of organizations
are suffering from it.
They celebrate it knowinglyand sometimes unknowingly,
you know, we're like,oh, I'm back to back.
And we're like,yeah, badge of honor.
Or Oh, I only got threehours of sleep last night.
Kind of badge of honor.
And yeah, it is rare, Abigail,for me to hear someone say, I

(37:50):
took a nap, or I got a massagein the middle of the day.
And then even the folks whodo like again, and like you
mentioned, Abigail, like drop inthe bucket in terms of change.
It kind of ties back to me.
I almost wanna just, it'smaking so much sense to
me right now that I almostwanna bring it back to like
some of the practical steps.
And I think like we'vetalked a lot about sort of
the individual bits and liketeam levels of stuff, right?

(38:12):
Like setting up a meeting thathas some extra time in between,
you know, giving yourselfbreaks, listening to your body.
I wonder if we can go into likethe organizational layer as well
in terms of like deliberatelycreating a culture that is not.
Ignoring our persons fromthe neck down in terms of
listening to our bodies.
There's two places Iwant to go with it.

(38:32):
One, I'm just interested in likewhere to start and then I wanna
go into like how to measure ifit's working, maybe I can throw
that over to Matthew first.
Just in terms of like wherecan an organization start
at an individual level.
I think we've given someexamples, but if an organization
wants to actually get away fromthis like toxic hustle culture.

(38:53):
What's the first stepthey should take?

Awareness, I think is the first one.
There is something calledorganizational trauma where
there are things that havehappened in the history
that still informed howpeople operate and focus
on a day-to-day basis.
And I would love to sayI'm an expert in that area.
I am not.
But it is very interestingjust in journaling, doing 360

(39:15):
reviews, having some baselineawareness of what's happening
within the organization.
I think more where I goto is I think it's okay
to see most, if not allagencies have some of this.
So instead of focusing somuch on diagnosis, I just
say, bring in the tools.
And I look at that from astandpoint of something I aspire

(39:38):
to do, I haven't quite done yetis to start all meetings with
my team of, again, are you ina contracted or expanded state?
And if you're in a contractedstate with the Hoberman sphere.
Can we create space for that?
Or is it something where,there's another organization
where they used to cancelmeetings, so if anyone came

(39:58):
in and they were contracted,they would say, great, we're
not gonna hold the meetinguntil you're able to get
back into an expanded state.
Now that's a bit of a luxurybecause you can't do that
all the time, but it can be,and I do this with project
management teams that I lead.
I'll go in and I'llsay, where is everyone?
Or how are people doing?
And you can do like athumb meter where a thumbs

(40:20):
up is everyone is great.
A thumb in the middleis something maybe up.
And a thumb down is, okay.
Someone's in a tough spot.
Managers can use thesetools, any leaders can.
There's a another tool thatI'm happy to elaborate on
later called Sensation,Emotion, Want that my mentor,
Dr. Julie Caldwell, bringsin and that's another great

(40:42):
way to start to introduce it.
Again, I think from myperspective, people do
spend a lot of time with thediagnosis, and this isn't so
much a medical thing though.
It has very realmedical implications.
It's not so mucha disease though.
There is a lot of thisease that is happening.
I would much more championthe tools and bring those

(41:05):
in because I think there'sbenefits to them and it brings
an awareness regardless ofwhether a company is at a place
of a lot of in researchingfor an upcoming talk.
There was a ton of EOSshops that I talked to, or
entrepreneur operating systemplaces, and I would bring up
certain things about consciousleadership and they'd say,

(41:26):
oh, well we don't have anissue with accountability.
We don't have an issuewith responsibility.
So to your point, I think thetools and the space for them
are as if not more important.

I'm gonna dovetail off that.
You can build into the EOSscorecard metrics around
body awareness or buffersand that kind of thing.
I think that's a good place tostart measuring and creating
your own customized metricsthat makes sense for your
team at the moment you're in,that you're checking in on a
regular basis at your L 10 oryour level 10 weekly meetings.

(41:58):
But backing up a bit, I lovethe check-in question, and
one I've found works well toois what's the weather like
for you today in your world?
And that can give people thisabstraction and this layer of.
Keeping confidential andnot having to say too much
and just saying It's stormy.
It's stormy, and leavingit at that, which I

(42:19):
found to be useful.
Coming back to Ed Schein,our culture definition fella.
He has an iceberg modelof culture that you can
see the artifacts justbelow the surfaces.
Your values, which is boththe espouse, but also wheres
time and money invested.
What is a value and worth here?
And then the basic assumptions.
So a team could scrappilydo a quick, what are the

(42:43):
current artifacts we see?
What is current state,what is ideal state?
What is the gaps?
And just do an in-house quickassessment of where they
are, where they wanna be,and what might be needed to
move towards the ideal state.
The other more tactical toolI've used is the Leadership
Circle Profile 360 tool,like you're saying, to get a

(43:05):
snapshot of self-awareness,how you rate yourself on
creative competencies,reactive tendencies, how
other people see you.
You get 15 to 25 people toreport and then you see that
in a single diagram overlaidto see is how I think and
understand myself, think aboutmyself the way that others see

(43:25):
me, and I find it less that.
The less valuable over the yearsof doing this assessment that a
leader is high creative capacityand low reactive tendency.
It's more that they're in lineand of understanding how they
see themselves and how otherssee them, and they're coming
to grips with where theirdownfalls are, can be even

(43:46):
more powerful than being ahigh creative capacity leader.

Galen Low (43:51):
That's so interesting.
I like that.
And it ties back to whatMatthew was saying about the
sort of like internal worldand external world, right?
And if there's alignment orawareness about how you're
seen or how you're perceivedand the ways that you react,
like it's not necessarilythis journey to become a more
creative leader and rank morehighly in these things, but
just have that like alignment.

(44:12):
I wondered if maybe I couldjust like take it one step
back because Abigail, youraised a really good point
that especially in the agencyworld, we've built up this
hustle culture, you know,where we are almost always
at capacity and we're back toback and like even just like
I understand the argument oflike some of these tools are
useful and simple to implement.

(44:32):
But even starting thatconversation, I would find
a little bit difficult.
How do you tell somebody who'slike for years, been like
ignoring their body and justlike pushing through and has
been like celebrating themselvesas that person who can just
grind and is resilient, doesn'tneed a lot of sleep, and just
like has very strong work ethic.

(44:53):
How can you explain to themthat suddenly spinning on their
heels and paying attention totheir feelings is actually going
to make them a better leader?

It's funny because a lot of leaders
come to me and say, my teamneeds leadership development.
They need to pause.
I'm good.

Galen Low (45:08):
Huh?

And they're the example.

Galen Low (45:10):
Interesting.

I had a conversation with a leader of
such team this week and justsaid, it's like, what kind
of support are you getting?
And just keeping it casualand informal, and that
can gauge where they're atin terms of readiness to
change or talk about it.
And it may not be the righttime, but a question I got
asked this week is, whatdo you wanna be known for?
That helps me zoom out andthink about long-term legacy.

(45:35):
And I've been doing some futuresthinking and Training Institute
of the Future around strategicplanning, but the recommended
view to think internallyand externally is 10 years.
It puts us in a thirdperson state of mind
rather than a first person.
Where you can set goals thatget you outside of your current
reality and you can think aboutwhat you wanna be known for.

(45:58):
And I think having thattimeframe of a conversation with
a leader can help connect withtheir values and see if they're
living today in a way that'sgonna get them to what they
wanna be known for long term.

Galen Low (46:14):
That's interesting.
I like that sort of, yeah,almost third person perspective
on it in that timeframe.
Matthew, I'm imagining you'vegotten some pushback from
some agency folks and otherfolks that you work with where
they're like, yeah, Matthew,that's fine for somebody
else, but I'm not that person.
I do want it to say on mytombstone, didn't sleep much,
always responded to Slack.
You know, Hey, is that okay?

(46:36):
And like, you know, or ifit's not, then how do you
start that conversation withsomeone who might not even
be aware that they've gotroom to grow as a leader and
thinks that everybody, youknow, to Abigail's point,
everyone else has a problem.
I'm fine.

I love the heart of this question, it
ties back to like, I wannamake a loose analogy here.
I've always been curiousabout what gets someone to
buy or take action or I'vegot a history in a variety
of different communities.
I used to be very involved withadventure racing, and we would
sit at a booth and try to getpeople to sign up for our club.

(47:12):
It was very low investmenton cost, but it was a high
investment on time and somepeople would be interested
and others would just be like,oh, that's nice, and they
would just keep on walking.
I think the same thingapplies to this, where
this isn't for everyone.
There are some people outthere, and I forget the
technical term for it.
Some people aren't in touchwith their body or emotions,

(47:34):
and it goes beyond thedifference between feeling numb
and being out of touch withthem, and then just simply not
being able to recognize them.
I would say pushingthat audience group
aside, you also have.
And I wanna make sure Iuse the right terms here.
It's sociopaths and someeven psychopaths that are in

(47:55):
the professional workplace.
I hope if anyone is listeningthat you don't work for one
of them because you willprobably recognize pretty
quickly if they just walkall over everyone's emotions.
That would be somethingthat I think would be, I
would walk very carefullyaround that population.
Because I'm not equipped tohandle someone if they are

(48:16):
operating from that standpointbecause they will outmaneuver
or outwork any of the toolsthat I recommend or bring in.
So I, those are extremeexamples, but I mentioned that
in the spirit of if someone iswilling and interested in doing
this type of work, I assume, orsense there's an openness there.
And if they're not, it'ssomething again that Dr.

(48:39):
Caldwell goes back to.
If someone is willing to shiftand be aware, that's great.
But the point is lessabout if someone is willing
and more about awareness.
And that's usually where I tryto start, is teasing out I was
working with someone who hadsome challenging dynamics with

(48:59):
another coworker and offeredup the tools and we walked
through them and they came outof it and they're like, yep,
this, I don't really get it.
Like I'm gonna have to goback and do my own thing.
Again I go back to somethingwhere it's been a mountain,
if you will, like, I'mout here in Denver.
We have mountainsall over the place.
It's been a mountain for meto climb and try to figure
this out for myself becauseI have a dad who was a

(49:22):
drill sergeant in the army.
Both my parents were fromthe East coast and acted like
emotions didn't exist, and Igrew up with that model of.
Very little emotional awareness,very little emotion literacy.
And if I am running into someoneelse at that point, again, I'm
gonna start with awareness.

(49:43):
I'm gonna start with arethey recognizing how they are
showing up, or is there anytype of sliver of safety that
I can create in a conversationwhere they'll recognize and
come back and say, oh wow.
I didn't realize theimpact I was having on
other type of people.
It can be something as simpleas their body because if someone

(50:05):
is walking around with constantheadaches or back tension,
or one of the feelings thatwe go back to a lot is fear.
And if you have a constantstomach ache or digestive issues
or something else going on, themedical world is very quick to
say, okay, well you have IBS,you have, let me pathologize it.
Let me figure outwhat's wrong with you.

(50:27):
Instead of simply going back andsaying, are there any danger or
threats to your world right now?
Can we take some timeand explore that?
Because a lot of the timecognitively, people will
distance it like you'rereferring to, but they
can't ignore their body.
And a lot of people will spendtime trying to gain wealth and
then they spend their wealthtrying to gain back health.

(50:49):
And what ends up happening inthat dynamic then is people will
pay attention to health, peoplewill pay attention to like.
I can't sleep.
I get like two or three hoursof sleep at night and if you
can crack the door open andhelp them recognize what type
of impact that's having, thenI think it comes back and
it shifts the conversationfrom the tools and all these
other things to, hey, there'svery real visceral things.

(51:12):
And if you give these toolsa chance, then you might
notice that again you go backinto that place of expansion.

Galen Low (51:18):
I like that idea.
A underwriting that, yeah,this might not be fair
everyone, but also, I mean,it can start with awareness
more than the willingness.
And it is our bodies andwe all have one, I think.
Fair enough.
And safe enough to say, yeah.
Yeah.

I don't think AI and like the
machines have taken over.
If you're ai, if you'relistening to this in digesting
this in the future, if youhave feelings, come talk to us.
We would be veryinterested in that.
That'll be a wholedifferent conversation.

Galen Low (51:45):
I'm actually ai, like actually just from here
below, it's just Cyborg.
Oh.
I wanted to dive in with that AIlens and maybe play a little bit
of a devil's advocate becauseai now we're talking about it.
It's everywhere in our work.
It's changing the way thatwe work and things that used
to be very squarely humaninteractions with emotions
and what have you are arguablybeing abstracted away.

(52:09):
I know folks who are usingLLMs to sort of rinse or
deify their like knee jerkreaction to something, right?
So they don't go in andthrow the stapler so that the
email doesn't come back, youknow, T and angry and become
a career limiting thing.
In some ways it's like.
Giving us a bit of emotionalsupport, maybe positive
feedback, maybe sycophanticpositive feedback, but you know,

(52:29):
positive feedback nonetheless.
And in some ways it's keepingus like arms lengths from some
of the stressors, such as likebeing isolated or blank page
syndrome and imposter syndrome.
Some people might arguethat AI is teaching us to
be better humans in termsof communication and maybe
acting as a bit of like this,like emotional lubricant that
reduces the need for us tolike be spending so much time

(52:51):
paying attention to our bodies.
Just to play thedevil's advocate.
Conscious leadership, love theidea, but like, isn't it now
out of date in the age of ai,aren't we moving away from the
sort of early evolutionary stagewhere like it's like survival
and instinct and emotions andaren't we now actually just
head people from the neck up?

(53:12):
Like what if this is notthe thing that drives us
into the future becausewe don't need it anymore?

AI can rewrite the email and craft your
language in such a way that candeliver the tone that you're
looking to convey, but it can'ttell you when to send the email.
The timing is crucial andbeing able to gauge the
right format and the rights.
Way to deliver the message isnever gonna be dehumanized.

(53:42):
We're going to need to stayreading body cues and bringing
that information as validdata into the equation.

Galen Low (53:49):
It's really interesting about
the timing thing.

I think AI is really great at making sense.
A lot of information anddata except for emotions.
Emotions, although they areinformation and data are the
one thing that I think willalways be a gamble for ai.
We as humans and Stantec andone of my favorite attachment
people talks about how wemoved from stick and rock and

(54:12):
tree to trying to describethe complexities of what's
happening in our internal world.
And good luck.
Most people, myself included,there's a sender and a
receiver in communication.
And no matter how perfect Iam on the sending side, if I
do all the things correctly,there's still a receiver
and I cannot control that.

(54:32):
And that's thesame thing with ai.
AI will never be able tocontrol how things are received,
regardless of what happens.

Galen Low (54:39):
Interesting.
Even if I were to kind of goalong with that, I think the one
thing that's sort of nagging atme is this notion of time spent.
We were talking earlier,Matthew, you mentioned some
organizations will do alittle pulse check at the
beginning of a meeting,and if not everybody's
in the right head space,they'll cancel the meeting.
And I'm just going in my head.
Wow.
Like, how is workgonna get done?
We are spending so muchtime being therapists for

(55:02):
our employees that we needto build a culture where
meetings just might nothappen, even if something
is due within that week.
It seems to me like maybe someof these tools and tactics slow
us down so much that we actuallywon't be competitive anymore.
I'm wondering, likeprove to me what is the
business case for this?
Like how is this a worthwhileinvestment from a business

(55:23):
standpoint, not just abeing good human standpoint?

My mind goes to flow states and how that can be
a huge fuel for productivity andacceleration and giving somebody
agency to make decisions thatmaybe they need to take a nap
in the day, but their heads downwork that doesn't involve other
people can happen between sevenand 10:00 PM and that's what

(55:49):
works for them, their families.
That can be a huge way to,validate them making decisions
that are best for their bodieslong-term and is best for the
team delivering the productin a maybe faster than the
traditional nine to five waythan was originally expected.

I'll quickly add on a couple things with
that to borrow somethingfrom the fitness world.
Slow is smooth and smooth isfast, and there's very much
this concept of somethingyou've alluded to quite a
bit earlier in the call.
It's not that thisis a huge investment.
There is a little bitof a learning curve, but
the results far outweigh.

(56:27):
Like we're not human doings.
We're human beings.
And the more we come backto that, especially in
an age of ai, the morewe're allowed to connect.
If you and I have a greatrelationship, for example, like
we've met in person, I'm morewilling to work and achieve
and do things for you becauseI know that relationship

(56:48):
foundation is there.
So I look at these asfoundational things that to some
of the points that Abigail wasmentioning about music earlier.
I dunno if it's doctor, butI know it's Ethan Cross has
done a lot of research aroundemotions out of Michigan and
goes into the state changethat music can provide for
us, and that's happeningover seconds or minutes.

(57:11):
It's not like this isdays or hours of work.
It can simply be, Hey, Ihad a really rough meeting.
I don't have enough time tocreate space for this, but I
can put on some music to helpshift my state early until I do
have space to acknowledge and.
Address what was coming upbecause it's not always about
dealing with it in the moment.
A lot of it can be dealingwith it when we do have

(57:32):
time and recognizing thevalue and coming back.

Galen Low (57:35):
I know I'm supposed to be the devil's advocate
right now, but I'm like, that'sresonating really well with me.
A) Abigail, your notion of likethese leading indicators of
like, is there a correlationbetween people working
regular hours and spendingtime with their families and
our performance as a sortof lagging indicator and
Matthew that like slow issmooth and smooth is fast.
The idea that.
Actually, I don't know ifthere's that many people out

(57:57):
there who would say, oh yeah, itreally worked, but I freaked out
and threw a stapler at somebody,and then we kept going and like,
yeah, we're so high performing.
This is such a good, usuallythere's like even just sitting
down with HR slows you down.
You almost hit somebody.
We need to sit down anddeal with this that is
slow and it's not smooth.
Whereas slow is smoothand smooth is fast.

(58:17):
Gosh, this is such a deep topic.
I would love to dive deeper,but instead of making this like
an epic episode, maybe whatI'll do is have you both on,
again, honestly, this has beenso much fun and very insightful
and hopefully insightfulfor our listeners as well.
Before I let you go, where canfolks learn more about you?
Abigail?

LinkedIn is a good place to find me.
Abigail Jones, there's a lot ofus, so you can search San Diego
or UCSD, our executive coach.
You'll find me.

Galen Low (58:47):
Amazing.
I'll also put yourLinkedIn profile link in
the show notes as well.
And Matthew, where can folksfind out more about you?

There's a couple places.
LinkedIn, definitely, ofcourse, I gotta say The
Digital Project Manager.
There is to create aquick plugin because I
believe project managementis often misunderstood.
I'm creating something calledproject leadership circles,
and you can find out aboutmore in the DPM community.
And last but not least, TheBureau is another place that

(59:15):
I hang out if you wanna cometalk about these topics more.

Galen Low (59:18):
Awesome.
Love that.
I will link all of those thingsin the show notes for folks.
Abigail, Matthew — thanksagain for coming on the show
and spending time with me.
I really appreciate it.

My pleasure.

Thank you.
Thank you for having us.

Galen Low (59:30):
That's it for today's episode of The Digital
Project Manager Podcast.
If you enjoyed thisconversation, make sure
to subscribe whereveryou're listening.
And if you want even moretactical insights, case studies
and playbooks, head on over tothedigitalprojectmanager.com.
Until next time,thanks for listening.

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