March 22, 2022 • 42 mins
In this episode, Jason & Paul sit down with Lisa to discuss the environmental implications of blockchain tech, her incredible work in inclusion - having recently won a Blockie Award for Gender & Diversity Leader of the Year - and NFT rhinos!
Lisa is a leading advocate and activist in the impact investing space, having led NAB’s Digital Innovation & Sustainability and now as CEO of DigitalX.
Everything has two prices: the price you pay and the price it costs the environment, says Lisa Wade, but how can we effectively measure impact? In what she calls the ‘Race to Authentic Investment’, Lisa believes blockchain technology can bring granularity, stop the greenwashing and propel impact investing into the mainstream through tokenisation.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome back to season two, episode two of that
digital village podcast.
The show all about the latesttech trends influencing business
today's episode is all about theimpact of investing, influencing
blockchain and web 3.0, Jasonand Paul are gonna be joined by
Lisa Wade.
Who's the CEO of digital X,which is a technology investment
company focused on thecommunication of blockchain in
(00:24):
digital asset funds.
Lisa has also done someincredible work in the L G B QT
I plus community, includinggender and inclusion in the
workspace for which she recentlywas recognized by winning for
earning her block award.
So sit back and enjoy today'sepisode.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Hi Jason.
We're back in the room doing apodcast.
It's been too long.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Yeah.
In person
Speaker 2 (00:48):
In person as well.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
It's good to be here.
You've done a few online, whichhave, um, good to keep the ball
rolling, but it's actually niceto be back in
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Like keep a hand in,
Speaker 3 (00:55):
You know, and it's nice to have, um, an actual
guest in person as well.
Makes a
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Difference.
Welcome, Lisa.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Hello.
And you we've brought out thesunshine.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
We
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Have.
Yes.
For our listeners.
We've been in rain actuallydrenched in rain for the last
two weeks.
Um, but it looks like it'sfinally stopped.
So look, today's, um, subject is, uh, this is episode seven of
our podcast series.
Um, we've been focusing on alot, lot of different areas to
do with, um, the environment,climate change, blockchain
(01:25):
security,
Speaker 3 (01:26):
The use of technology in, in, in, um, in society.
Right.
And people and it's applicationto business.
So
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And now we've got somebody inthe room who knows about all of
that.
Yeah.
So we can cover all thosesubjects in one go.
Um, so episode seven, how greenis your block chain?
So how impact investing isinfluencing blockchain and web
3.0.
So just as a better contexthere, Jace, um, hardly a day
goes by without papersreferencing another green
(01:55):
initiative or blockchainbusiness venture.
For many, there is an era ofobscurity and ambiguity about
these stories.
Um, when will it make adifference?
What will they cost?
What happens if jobs are lost?
And if power stations arereplaced by wind farms, is there
a killer application out therewhich will catapult blockchain
(02:16):
into the mainstream while manyhave formed investors think so,
Larry Fiker BlackRock famouslytold invest in 2020, the fund
would not invest in any businessthat didn't have a conscious and
action DSG policy in his ownwords.
What are you doing to disruptyour business?
How are you preparing for andparticipating in the net zero
(02:39):
transition as your industry getstransformed by the energy
transition, will you go the wayof the Dodo or will you be the
Phoenix in simple terms?
He's saying, I guess everybusiness needs to consider the
impact it's making.
So we're joined today, but oneof the countries leading
advocates and activists in theimpact, investing in
(02:59):
sustainability space, Lee, Wade,Lisa, lovely to have you here.
Thank you.
You've built your own impactinvestment, uh, fund you've led
NAB's digital innovation,sustainability arm.
And now your head of digital X,which we're looking forward to
hearing about here in Australia.
Uh, you've been recognized foryour tireless in the G BT, Q I
(03:20):
community.
And you continue to play anactive role in promoting gender
equality in society, in theworkplace.
And you've just won a blockyaward.
Speaker 4 (03:29):
I did,
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yes.
What was that
Speaker 4 (03:31):
For?
Uh, for in gender and inclusionleader of the year.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Congratulations.
That's fantastic.
Do want
Speaker 3 (03:37):
To, for people that don't know what a blockie award
is, do you wanna,
Speaker 4 (03:41):
Yeah, it's a, it's an award, um, voted by the
blockchain industry, um, by, outby my peers.
So, um, it's a little trophy,very heavy trophy.
And, um, it's, um, you know, Ibasically, out of all of my
peers in the blockchain industrydid more work in the L G B T and
inclusion bay.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Fantastic.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
Somehow I want it against some very good company.
So all a lot of my work atnational Australia bank yes.
And some external work that wedo with rainbow women.
And, um, I do a fair bit aswell.
Um, inclusion work in mentoring,younger women, especially L G BT
plus women and bringing themthrough, into finance and
technology.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Fantastic.
That's great.
Well, when really Jason and Iwere putting together the, uh,
the list of questions of today,we kind of stopped when we got
to 30, how we gonna 45 minutes.
So we we've had to be fairlyruthless in how we've cut this
down.
Um, but I do hope that we'll becovering subjects, which I know
that you are have.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
I'm very
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Good.
Great.
So let's get started.
Um, so let's talk with thebasics.
I mean, there are gonna bepeople listening to this who
don't understand what impactinvesting really is.
Can you give us a definition?
Speaker 4 (04:52):
Well, broadly speaking impact investing is
investing with more thanfinancial returns in the
crosshairs.
So what we look for is thesocial impact of the investments
that we make, as well as thefinancial returns.
There's different types, there'ssocial first, which means you
investors don't care so muchabout returns.
They just wanna get the socialreturn.
And then there's finance first,which is still caring about
(05:14):
returns more, um, but alsowanting to have the positive
social impact.
There's very many, uh,definition.
And my passion at the moment iswhat I'm calling the race to
authentic investments and reallyusing technology to bring
granularity into impactinvesting and stop the greenwash
and stop all of this talk.
And I, um, you know, probablyabout five years ago realized
(05:38):
that blockchain technology wasperfect for that.
And the moment I could see itand unsee it.
So we've been doing a lot ofwork in that space to, um, to,
to build and create, um, toolsand systems that can measure
impact.
And tokenization is one of thetools that we've been using so
that we can start to get somegranularity in impact returns,
(05:58):
which I believe will actuallymake impact investing
mainstream.
And I'm really excited to bedoing this work in the space, um
, right inside of NAB.
We started with project carbon,which was tokenizing carbon.
Yep.
And I also have a little passionproject called Naomi where we've
worked out how to tokenizeimpact and you'll see some
exciting things happen throughthat over the next couple of
(06:19):
years.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Great.
And just for the uninitiatedtokens, how, how can you explain
how tokens fit into
Speaker 4 (06:26):
This?
Well, I can explain how about Isimplify tokens?
Uh, so tokens are basically, uh,in the way that we use them
taking the rigor, that side offinancial instruments and
programming them into computerprograms that then, um, create,
um, a digital version of thefinancial security or a digital
(06:48):
twin.
If you like at its simplestlevel at its most complex level,
say in renewable energy plants,we can digitally originate, um,
securities tokens by using thedata on site from great
projects.
However, the world is not readyfor that.
So we just keep it simple.
We do digital twins, we take thefinancial contract, could be
(07:08):
your home loan, could be thetitle to a building.
Uh, we take all the, the detailsinside of that.
Like all of the maths inside ofthat, we do a little computer
program and that computerprogram represents the loan or
the security or the investment.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Right, right.
Okay.
So, so you are now see digital X.
I am.
Yes.
Um, and I was just reading theirlatest interim and financial
statement.
Um, and they're saying they'reputting a big emphasis on
sustainability and ESG.
It's no coincidence then theyyou've just become the CEO.
That is not
Speaker 4 (07:40):
A coincidence.
No.
Um, as I said, my campaign atthe moment is the race to
authentic investments.
Yeah.
And digital X is an incrediblecompany, uh, and very active in
blockchain.
And I think it would be fair tosay, um, that there are concerns
about the E the environmentalimpact of blockchain.
I am.
One of those people is concernedabout the environmental impact,
(08:01):
not only of everything, but alsoblockchain.
And so, um, part of the reasonwhy I've come on board at
digital X is for digital X toactually become a good company,
as well as a great company.
So the first thing that we'vedone, um, is we have signed up
to the world economic forum,sustainability framework, which
is a, a, a framework forreporting for corporations so
(08:24):
that we can actually all, um,report the same data points.
I don't know how deep you gointo sustainable finance, but
there are so many surveys, somany different things we could
do.
Um, what, what we are doing iswe're saying the first step
towards sustainability is tomeasure.
Yes.
And then obviously me being me,there'll be lots of initiatives
where, um, you know, where thedigital X will, uh, transform
(08:48):
into a sustainable company.
And, um, I'm really excitedabout that journey we're going
to take yes.
And, um, you know, verycommitted to being, um, you
know, we're throwing aroundwords like green crypto and, um,
you know, really leading in thatspace.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
So Jason, you, you and I have spent some time with
people in the ag tech area, uh,doing carbon sequestration
projects and, and looking at, uh, carbon capture.
Yeah.
And one of the problems theyfaced in that area was how do we
measure this stuff?
That's right.
Yeah.
Because, you know, the end ofthe day, they're not gonna get
carbon credits.
Yeah.
If they can't measure itaccurately.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
That's right.
I mean, if there's, I mean,following any, any kind of
framework, it's as good as theinformation that it starts with.
So, um, you know, how can youvalidate or verify the
effectiveness us of a project ifyou can't effectively measure
the actual impact itself or the,where you're starting from,
which is a, a huge challenge.
And I was, it was actually, Iwas keen to see, understand, um,
(09:46):
in, you know, what yourexperience had been with that of
actually being able to havelike, measuring impact in, um,
yeah.
In some of the projects thatyou've been involved in.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Look, I mean, you may havetapped into one of my favorite
topics of all time.
So, um, we've been doing a lotof work in that space.
And one of the things thatexcited me about going to
digital X is digital X has alittle, um, governance business
called Drawbridge, which hasbeen built across the ASX chess
system.
Another piece of work that we'dbeen doing was with KPMG, um, in
(10:18):
a project called origins, which,um, they're, they've got that
they were the first ever pilotonto the ASX blockchain.
And, um, in that project, um,what we brought it to the table
at NAB was, um, the digitalorigination of the carbon and
experimenting with that for percarbon.
So, um, I passionately believethat if we start originating
(10:42):
data at source in ag projects,then it's cheaper, faster, and
smarter to verify the carbon andverify the activity.
And so we can measure it andalso record it.
And if we create the data insideof that as an asset that is
saleable, whether it's impact orcarbon or whatever that may be,
um, then that can create thefinancial framework that we need
(11:04):
to monetize carbon to create thevalue that we need to, to have
the impact.
Because what we have right nowis, um, and, you know, we were
talking about Microsoft earlier.
Microsoft are a great example.
If I measure the total impact oftheir company over the
generation and the impact thatthey they've had, it's enormous.
But what they're saying is they,they wanna neutralize that for
(11:26):
the history of the company.
Yeah.
And how do they yeah.
How do they do that?
You have to measure, and then ithas to be paid for.
So if I've got a price ofcarbon, that's a dollar a ton,
then that doesn't really meananything because they, I can
pay, you know, a few hundredthousand dollars of all of the
hundreds of billions.
I mean, they might, might haveeven made a trillion dollars.
I don't know.
Um, but they wanna pay thatbill, but if there's not a great
(11:48):
price on carbon, then, um, thatbill isn't very big.
And right now, once you start tothink about the world like this,
everything I look at, I see twoprices.
I see the price I pay and theprice that's cost the
environment.
Yeah.
And once we start thinking likethat, you can't, unthink it.
And you start to realize that wereally need a price for carbon
to be able to start to pay theworld back.
(12:11):
I mean, there are companieswhich I want at name that
technically speaking, if Ilooked, if, if I had to, if I
charged them, if I sent them abill, uh, for the carbon
emissions that they've createdon this planet and destroying,
uh, you know, rainforest, Palmoil, all of those things, then
they would, it would actuallybankrupt those companies.
And they've been making moneyfrom doing that.
(12:31):
Yeah.
And
Speaker 3 (12:31):
I mean, the cost has gotta come from
Speaker 4 (12:33):
Somewhere around, well, we're paying the price.
Yeah.
I mean, and, um, you know, Idon't wanna be one of those
table thumping climate changeshere, but look at what we were
talking about before two yearsago, we were sitting in the
middle of bushfires.
Then we had a global pandemic,which if you read all of the
research pandemics, a part ofthe impact of climate change,
and now we're sitting here,there are fly in new south
(12:54):
Wales.
It has rained continuously inSydney for two weeks.
And there were people surfing atBemo beach.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Yeah, yeah.
So there's, there's definitely aconsequence to these things, but
from, from where you sit indigital X, how much of an impact
can you have to bring aboutchange?
Speaker 4 (13:12):
Oh, so much.
I mean, this change, I reallythink needs to be driven from
technology technology is thegame changer.
Um, you know, there's so manycliches about, you know, if you
wanna be crazy, do the samething over and over definition
of insanity, do the same thingover and over again.
And I believe that's attributedto Einstein.
Um, literally technology is the,the stick in all for that.
(13:35):
And, um, digital X is atechnology company and we will
invest in, we also have aventures, um, and we will invest
in those technologies and wewill be part of the conversation
in transforming what we'recalling web 3.0.
Um, I call it finance 3.0, butliterally money is the oxygen
that funds all of the good andall of the bad.
And, um, you know, I'm excitedto be part of a listed company,
(13:59):
a great little company locatedin Perth.
Yes.
And, um, and you know, with areally good focus and we will
make a difference
Speaker 2 (14:06):
And now you can go there
Speaker 4 (14:07):
And now I can go
Speaker 2 (14:10):
The Republic of Perth.
Yeah.
So just coming back to theblockchain thing.
Yeah.
Um, Lisa blockchain's beingdescribed as the kind of
backbone for web 3.0, but theclimate change lobby draws
attention to the energyconsumption, demands of creating
blockchain.
So what's your response to that?
(14:31):
What do you think can be done?
Well,
Speaker 4 (14:33):
I often get asked that question, uh, obviously
given what I do and, um, youknow, the truly geeky answer is
that, um, the energy thatBitcoin uses is half a percent
of world energy and us househouseholds are 11 and a half
percent of world energy.
So you do the maths.
You know, I think the averagemat in the street is, has more
impact than blockchain.
(14:53):
And I really think it'simportant for technology to own
their environmental impact.
And that is a lot of the workthat we'll be doing as a
business, um, to be transparentabout our energy emissions.
And, you know, all of theleading corporates in the world
are talking about nets.
It's too early for me to talkabout that with digital X,
however, there's this hugeopportunity in, in, you know,
(15:17):
like tokenizing, carbontokenizing impact, um, really
owning the, um, emissions forblockchain, um, to have more
renewable energy.
Like we know the maths, if wecan fund solar and wind, we can
reduce our emissions.
If we use renewable energy tomine, Bitcoin, then, um,
(15:37):
effectively that it's carbonneutral Bitcoin.
And there's lots of projectsstarting to do that.
Um, you know, off the record, Imay or may not know the CEO of a
renewable energy company basedin Melbourne that their largest
client is a bit Bitcoin minor.
Like there's many, many thingswe can do as technologists to
create.
Um, you know, we play aroundwith grain crypto and, you know,
we joke around about it, but,but why not?
(15:59):
I mean, web 3.0 has this amazingopportunity to rebuild finance
from the good up and, um, andto, you know, really focus on
know carbon emissions, ourimpact on the world, not solve
one problem whilst creatinganother.
Mm.
Um, but to actually, you know,embrace this new world that we
(16:21):
need to move into and, um, do itin an, in a way that's
profitable for everybody,including not destroying a
planet anymore because we'vedone a good job of that so far.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
So we had Rob Allen in a few months back,
Speaker 4 (16:34):
One of my favorite people
Speaker 2 (16:35):
And Rob obviously works with Hadera hash graph.
Yeah.
Now they have a differentapproach to creating the
distributed ledger, which uses afraction of the energy required
in blockchain.
Do you think that's gonna becomea, sort of a competitive
advantage that all organizationswill start looking for
distributed ledger suppliers whoare kind of low energy
(16:59):
consumption sources?
Speaker 4 (17:02):
Oh, absolutely.
I'm a huge fan of Hadera and ahuge fan of any green, um,
blockchain.
So even in Naomi, um, it wasoriginally built on a theorum I
say it like that, cause that's aJoe Luin says it.
Um, he knows, but Ethereum, assome people would call it, um,
but we built that on a theorumand then we pivoted onto polygon
(17:22):
, um, because it had a lowerenvironmental footprint.
And, um, and I'm in deep talkswith Hadera to also build on, on
that chain.
And I think we all need to beconscious of, of the impact of
the chains.
And I do think it will be acompetitive, competitive
advantage, um, and people reallyneed to look at what they need
(17:42):
from a chain when they'redeveloping, because every chain
has, you know, pros and cons anddifferent impacts and, um, you
know, Hadera is great.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
Yeah.
And I, I, I was just gonna say,I mean, I suppose it's, you
know, in terms of the impact oftechnology and blockchain
technology, that's evolvingquite rapidly and, you know,
whereas Bitcoin, um, it probablymight have a bigger impact than,
um, many others.
Um, you know, there's a, ofprogression towards and being
more sustainable and moreefficient anyway.
So it'll probably become less ofan, an issue as time goes on.
Speaker 4 (18:15):
Yeah, absolutely.
And even a theorum is moving to,um, proof of state versus proof
of work and, and that, thatreduces the carbon impact and
the environmental impactdramatically.
So there's lots of evolutionhappen and I mean, let's face
it.
Blockchain is just a whole lotof servers and I can guarantee
you, I haven't done the maps andmaybe I will.
(18:36):
The, all of the banks in theworld with all of their servers
would have equal impact to, um,what we are doing and what
people are doing in blockchain.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
So,
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Yeah, true.
Yeah.
I think it's a lot, a lot of itis to do with the optics
because, you know, for, forquite a while now, when people
have, have, um, referred towhere the mining is taking place
and the kind of powerconsumption required, you know,
you see, you see these, um,these, these server farms being
set up in remote valleys in, in,in the sort of, um, the way, way
(19:09):
back in the hem layerssomewhere, you know, nobody's
ever heard of it, but there's aplace there where they do mining
because it's, they're right nextto a power plant and there's a
lot of energy required.
So, and it's cheap, you know,
Speaker 4 (19:20):
So I wrote something I'm, I'm also on the board of
blockchain, Australia, and wewere marking up a paper.
And, um, I, I wrote somethingthe other day that I just said,
unfortunately, every time youhave a human being involved, um,
there is a chance that they willbe a criminal and they'll commit
fraud or they'll damage theenvironment because, and, and
(19:41):
that's not gonna stop happeninguntil there are no more people.
Yeah.
Because there, you know, there'salways bad actors, there's bad
actors in everything.
We've got people counterfeitingmoney.
Yeah.
We have people that banks, um, Icould, I have, I have people,
you know, doing what I do for solong.
You know, I, I have been bailedup at events by chief executive
offices of coal mining companiestelling me how bad solar is.
(20:03):
Yes.
Um, because we have to mine therare earth to, um, create solar
panels.
Yes.
And, you know, there's noperfect answer.
Humans have impact wereextremely evolved creatures, you
know, look at this buildingwe're sitting and it's
beautiful.
However, it, you know, it takes
Speaker 3 (20:19):
From the ground, I mean, takes from something.
Yep.
Exactly.
Speaker 4 (20:21):
Everything we do except surfing.
Maybe
Speaker 3 (20:25):
There's, there's a, um, one of my favorite sayings
actually by, um, saddle goodo,which you may be familiar with.
I know you're a, you OGI.
And, um, and he says that theworld is at a point now where we
have the technology and thecapability and intelligence to,
to solve many of the, theworld's problems.
Um, and I probably don't wannaget into the question of why
(20:47):
that hasn't happened, but Isuppose, you know, it's
interesting to, um, um, youknow, I guess there's more of an
immediate need now than thereever, ever has been as well.
But, um, you know, I guess asinterested what the commercial
opportunity of impact investingis, um, and also what the role
(21:08):
of technology, um, has in that
Speaker 4 (21:11):
Look, I think it's, um, if you add up the whole
opportunity, it is the greatesteconomic opportunity of our
generation.
And I include in that transitionto a low carbon economy and also
equality across all metrics.
And I, I genuinely agree withthat quote, um, and what we
don't have and what is missingis the resources and the belief
(21:33):
because, um, the change could behappening now.
However, we have these legacysystems and ecosystems that
don't want to be torn down.
Mm.
So right now, why am I sopassionate about finance 3.0 web
3.0, because I can removelayers, layers of cost, layers
of admin, mountains of papersystems, uh, systems.
(21:55):
Yeah.
And those systems don't wanna beremoved.
And then those creating the newsystems need resources.
Yes.
And, um, that's why I'm soexcited about joining a company
like digital X, because what doI have that I've never had
before?
I have this amazing team ofdevelopers and, you know, fellow
people who want to change theworld.
And, um, you know, what we needwhere we need to start first is
(22:17):
unfortunately some of the mostboring bits, which is RegTech
and making sure that we havereally sound financial systems
that we're building.
Cause there will always be badactors and see bad behavior in
all financial markets.
Yes.
And crypto is no exception.
And the art and mastery for allof us is going to be avoiding
the bad actors and reallybuilding the good financial
(22:40):
ecosystems and having the rightpeople come on board.
And, you know, one of the thingswe've never been able to do in
impact investing is measure toprove that you can make superior
financial returns through impactinvesting.
Now, when we said that 16 yearsago, we like I've been called
crazy.
And, um, let me tell you, Idon't sound so crazy now.
(23:00):
Well,
Speaker 3 (23:01):
Exactly.
And so there's a, there's amassive shift in, um, I guess
humanities recognition of theneed to change.
And, and I guess where I wasleading to that question is, um,
that people are more aware andmore interested and you can see
that by the amount of investmentin that area, which I, you know,
(23:24):
I don't know if, I think it'slike 70 trillion market or
something like that, whereas 10years ago that was, is
definitely not the case.
Speaker 4 (23:31):
Yeah.
And, and, um, absolutely.
And then if you sort of a littlebit, um, of you are like a
little bit of a zealot like me,then you drill down into the
numbers and a lot of that is notactually authentic.
Yeah.
And um, only about 10% of allcapital attributed to
sustainable finance right now isgenuinely and authentically
invested for impact.
(23:53):
Um, and you know, one of thereasons why I'm, where I am
today is because as a globalequities portfolio manager, um,
you know, I was so passionateabout, about sustainable finance
.
I had this portfolio that I'dhandcrafted, you know, I created
the investment universe, Ihandpicked all of the stocks and
it just didn't feel authenticbecause it was only over like
(24:14):
51% of earnings or, you know,there were other unintended
consequences of the actions ofthe company.
And I came to realize that weneed to invest more in real
assets and direct investment.
And that has sent me on a verystrange path in my career, but I
am sitting here today.
I'm still standing.
And obviously that was withBendigo bank when we were
building community super.
And, you know, we did the RA ETFas, as a cornerstone for that.
(24:38):
And you know, all of the work atnav with all of the renewable
energy investment and the lowcarbon shared portfolio.
And now we, we need to deploymore capital and, and faster and
more authentically, cuz it's notokay for large funds to, um,
talk about sustainability unlessthey're direct investing.
Yeah.
Uh, because a global equitiesportfolio, there aren't enough
(24:59):
companies genuinely doing thegood to have a portfolio.
It's like to me, it's likeshooting fish in a barrel.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
So, so is, is there likely to be a body that will
provide that kind of, um,measurement and all disability
behind this?
Do you think behind theinvestments, you know, like
where to, so you're saying inyour report and accounts yeah.
That you're doing this amount ofinvestment in becoming green,
prove it.
Speaker 4 (25:25):
Well, that's why, um, that, where I think the world of
the work of the world economicforum can really come into the
forum because, you know, if youthink about my role at digital
X, I've got two things I have tosolve for, I've got a fund that
invests in this new economy.
Um, so I need to understand whatI'm investing in there and what
the impact that is.
Yes.
Um, there's a huge number ofcrypto funds that are emerging.
(25:46):
Um, and then, um, to understandthe impact of the business and,
you know, our balance sheet andthe investments that we're
making and you know, our staffand, you know, everyone, you
know, loves to do the J scope 1,2, 3, but it's really important
for all businesses to understandthat.
And it's not okay to say my,that my, my head office is
carbon neutral because I paidfor a renewable energy.
(26:08):
Yeah.
Everybody needs to understandthe ripple effect of what we are
doing so that collectively, um,we can all be green.
Um, and you know, in terms ofinvesting, even activist
shareholding to me is sort ofhalf a step.
It's a good step.
And I don't wanna be critical ofanybody.
I think it's really importantthat we are where we are,
(26:30):
because if 90% of funds areattributing to sustainable
finance, guess what?
That's the easy part.
That's the hard part is, was toget people to actually agree
that sustainable finance hadlongevity.
Yes.
And now we can move them intowhat, what, you know, we call it
the continuum of, um, lightgreen to dark green and gray is
(26:52):
terrible.
Um, and we can move once peopleare light green, which is the
90% we can move them all the waydown to the dark green because
you're preaching to the choirthen.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Cause people they're on that journey.
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (27:01):
They're on the journey.
Yeah.
Once people are on the journey,the hardest part was getting
people on the journey.
Sure.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
How, how far do you think we are from that, you
know, jump or that over thatthreshold into, from gray to, to
light green?
Speaker 4 (27:14):
Um, I think so from, well, from gray to light green,
90% to the right number, butthen light green to dark green.
Um, we are 10 years away and weneed to be there yesterday.
Oh, okay.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
In my opinion.
And like, I wish we were therenow.
Um, but there's, um, just walkinto any pub in Sydney and say
(27:35):
that you're an impact investorand, um, and hear the commentary
and one out of 10 people will,um, be all for it.
And nine of town will be like,oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
But you know, like you can'tmake any money and you know, so
yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
So just from a kind of a, a reputational standpoint,
obviously, you know, we'rewatching things unfold in the
Ukraine, um, which is, you know,absolutely dreadful to watch.
And we, we will hope that thatwill resolve itself.
But one of the consequences ofwhat's happened in Ukraine has
been the people's confidence incrypto because there've been a
(28:10):
number well, it daily reportsabout, uh, NFT rug pools and
cryptocurrency tanking again.
And I mean, if you are an activeinvestor and you are trying to
back things up withcryptocurrency, doesn't that
present a, a huge amount of risk
Speaker 4 (28:26):
Look, one of the great lessons I've learned in
life is it's equal, good, equal,bad, and some may use the
metaphor of a coin that there'stwo sides to a coin.
Um, there are actually threesides to the coin.
The third side is the edge.
And we'll speak to that in asecond.
So on the dark side of the coinof this, obviously people are
saying that are, you know, theRussian government and, and, you
(28:48):
know, high net worth are using,um, crypto to avoid all of the
sanctions and having
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Their assets frozen,
Speaker 4 (28:55):
Something, having the assets frozen and, you know, and
that, that may be the case onthe other side of the coin we're
having, um, you know, impact, um, you know, philanthropists
raising money equal in Ukraine,through the crypto markets, um,
so equal, good, equal, bad.
Um, and then at the edge is, youknow, this world that we can
create, um, with the newtransparency that there is, um,
(29:18):
and that, you know, we reallycan create one world and it's
much easier to support people,uh, from Australia with these
new financial markets.
Cause let me tell you, I wouldnot know how to convert into the
Ukrainian, whatever it is or theRussian rub for that matter, if
it still exists, don't evenknow.
Um, but if I can send a fewBitcoin, um, and to, to help
(29:40):
somebody, then why not?
And I think that this new way ofdoing things in this new way of
working that we have in thesenew financial systems is worth
it.
And I think it's worth doing thework and, and we can all be at
our edge and really pushourselves to see past, um, you
know, any rhetoric around thingslike Bitcoin, not having an
intrinsic value being used forfraud.
(30:01):
Um, you know, it'sextraordinarily traceable.
Um, it's very, it's kind of oldfashioned to think that, um, you
know, you, that, um, criminalscan only criminals use Bitcoin.
Um, it really can be used forgood.
And one of the examples leadingby example, um, on Monday is my
first ever paid a at digital X.
(30:22):
And, um, I'm going to get paidpart of my salary in Bitcoin.
Oh wow.
And I can, once I start payingfor my coffees in Bitcoin, um,
then people start to see thatthere's an intrinsic value.
I hope it's not the milliondollar pizza, But I I'm gonna
give it a go.
And, um, and, and being theenvironmentalist that I am, I do
a lot of work with carbonstartups.
(30:42):
So beta carbon in Australia andmeta Carn in New York, which is
carbon NFTs.
And I'll be buying a littlerhino every time, every payday
too, just to balance off my, anycarbon footprint of the Bitcoin
that I earn.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
So talking a little more about that.
Tell us, what's your experiencebeen with NFTs?
Have you, have you sort ofbroadly you invested or have you
very sort of cherry picked verycarefully?
Speaker 4 (31:07):
Look, I am a finance geek and, and what doesn't come
across with me.
I'm a portfolio manager, so I amrisk first.
So I only invest in things Iunderstand, and I do a lot of
work.
Um, NFTs can, can be great.
Like I, I did a panel last nightfor, um, international women's
day, next week for consensus.
And there was an art NFT girl onthere and I was like, wow, I
(31:27):
wanna go and buy art NFTs.
Yeah.
Because it's helping the artistcommunity so much.
The only NFTs that I own, um,are, um, my meta carbo carbon, I
call'em carbon critters, butthey actually call carbon
creatures.
So I own a rhino and I own aturtle.
Right.
Uh, we're doing some work making, um, turtle NFTs for a carbon
(31:49):
project in Kaun too, which isreally cool.
Right.
Um, to restore some man groups.
Yeah.
Um, and also as part of myinterview for digital X, I made
a commemorative NFT.
Um, if the board gave me therole, so there are four of
those.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
And, um, not that you were trying to sway them at all.
Speaker 4 (32:05):
Well, I, the board still haven't had them dropped
into their wallet yet.
There's no bribery.
It was just, I, I, I figured ifI wanted to, um, go for, you
know, such a great role as a CEOof a technology company, I had
to pull something out of my hat.
Yeah.
Cool.
So I, I did, um, follow, didtear a little page out of Ross
McEwen and NAS book and wrote ahandwritten letter as well.
(32:26):
Yes.
And then I was like, well,that's not really gonna cut it
for a tech business.
So
Speaker 2 (32:30):
To end the spectrum.
Speaker 4 (32:30):
Exactly.
So I made a little NFT.
Um, my, I did that myself,actually, I bootstrap, I was
quite, quite proud of my effortand I did on the avalanche
Speaker 3 (32:39):
Network.
I was gonna say, what did youuse?
Yeah,
Speaker 4 (32:41):
Yeah.
I used the avalanche networkcause that's also a, a quite low
emissions network.
And, um, and I wanted to playaround with that network to get
a little bit more insideknowledge on it and
Speaker 3 (32:51):
Yeah,
Speaker 2 (32:52):
For fun.
Fascinating.
So look, um, new role at digitalX CEO.
Can you tell us a little bit ofabout what you're hoping to
achieve in the first 12 months?
Speaker 4 (33:01):
Well, hard with a listed company.
Uh, what I can say yes.
Uh, what I can say
Speaker 2 (33:08):
Is no numbers, no
Speaker 4 (33:09):
Numbers, no, just expect much greener focus.
Um, you know, we, I really,really hand on my heart, want to
lead Australia into this reallysustainable wor world authentic.
Um, my dream would come true ifI can have my listed stock in
the portfolio of funds that Iadmire, like Australian ethical,
(33:32):
because I've done a good job.
Um, you know, I'm going to berefreshing the strategy.
Um, you'll see a lot of green onthe pay age there too.
And not maybe talking aboutmoney, maybe just talking about
environment who knows, can'treally say it's a listed
company.
Yeah.
And, um, the piece of work thatI'm really excited about as well
as we're doing a lot of work onour purpose and, um, right.
(33:52):
Will be a purpose ledorganization.
And when we've developed thepurpose statement, that will be
something that, um, you know,comes from my team.
And, you know, one, one thingthat really resonated when I
interviewed was when I met theteam, everybody was very aligned
to my background and, you know,it's a young team of great
people, great developers, greatfinance team, great fund
(34:15):
managers.
And, um, they all really wannahave a positive impact.
So we're gonna all work togethera purpose statement and you'll
see that come through.
Speaker 3 (34:22):
That sounds like
Speaker 4 (34:23):
And made money for shareholders.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
Yeah.
Cause it, yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Oh yes.
Shareholders as well.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
Well, I mean, I guess it's interesting.
I mean that they're kind of, um,interrelated, um, purpose and,
and, and value and profit andthere's um, I guess it's, again,
going back to the progression orevolution of business over time
where much of the moreconventional and traditional
corporations were built ontaking to, um, to, and then
(34:53):
making profits from a cost, um,as opposed to now, with which
with more purpose, um, drivenbusinesses, creating impact and
the rise of impact in investingand coming from, um, society,
having more of a value on impactbecause it's becoming more
evident that it's more importantright now.
I mean, floods and everythingthat's been happening.
(35:15):
So my question is, um, what isthe purpose of business?
Speaker 4 (35:22):
I think purpose of business is to create a better
world because you need commerce.
Um, and every business shouldhave the thing that they're
doing to help people and to helpmake the world better.
And when that comes toshareholder value, when we can
quantify that and we canattribute returns to that,
that's when the rubber willreally hit the road at the
(35:42):
moment in large corporates,people are measured by the
bottom line and nobody cares.
Well, nobody has really caredhow that money gets made.
If you start identifying, hangon, you may have made a million
dollars, but it costs the world.
1.8 million.
You've lost me.
You've lost the world 1.8million, our shareholders don't
like that, cuz that isattributed to shareholder value.
(36:04):
Yes, that is when we're gonnastart to see change.
And at digital X that's onething that I aim to do is to
really like have attributionaround our returns and be able
to say, you know, we canquantify that we made this money
cuz we did this good.
Um, and whatever that good ishow we invest, um, you know,
things like Drawbridge with theRegTech and helping people, not
(36:24):
inside a trade, you know?
Yes.
We'll be able to quantify that.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
So there's, there's a , I, I may be reading something
into this that isn't there, butthere's a certain paradox behind
the fact you are based in Perth,which is the side of the con,
which is having the biggestimpact on the environment.
Speaker 4 (36:40):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
Yeah.
I mean, how do you kind of,
Speaker 4 (36:43):
Oh my gosh.
Well, so we're part of a, aresearch, a CRC, um, which is
backed by quite a number oflarge organizations.
We're probably the little minnowin the research co C it's a
digital CRC.
So it's a research consortium.
Okay.
Okay.
Um, backed by these Australiangovernment, it's like a matching
and oh yeah.
Um, and most of the projects,um, so it's about tokenization
(37:04):
and digital assets and most ofthe projects are, um, that are
being proposed, areenvironmental.
And one of them, interestingly,something I'm very passionate
about is, um, resources that arestill in the ground, um,
contributing value to eitherkeeping them there.
Or there are some, you know,rare earths that we really,
really need, but then why are weselling the rare earth?
(37:28):
Um, ex carbon?
Yeah.
It should be packaged andbundled up, bundled up.
And between all of us, guesswhat we can already do.
We can already tokenize carbon.
We can already, already tokenizea commodity.
Yeah.
So, you know, with the market,we'll be, you know, contributing
to conversations like that.
And um, you know, look at what,I can't even believe I'm saying
(37:49):
this, but, um, look at whatFortu and Andrew for is doing.
I know, you know, when we wereEcofin in 2011.
Yeah.
Um, he, he had a young guyworking for him that called me
up and he said, I wanna putrenewable energy next to the
mine.
And I'm like, you're a legend.
Yeah.
And we worked on that project.
Like they, they, they weregenuinely thinking about impact
now.
(38:09):
Yes.
And, and I I've been on therecord as being quite cynical
about hydrogen.
Obviously if it's, you know,powered by oil than it's no
different or coal than it's nodifferent to, to, to, um, you
know, using a coal five housestation, but you know, blue,
hydrogen and green hydrogengreen hydrogen, I should say, um
, will have a hugely POS huge,positive impact on the world.
(38:30):
And, you know, we need moregreen sources of energy.
And, um, you know, obviously theelephant in the room there is
nuclear, but, um, you know, backin the day when we had Tony
Coleman, who was the, um, chief,you know, head of risk, IAG
insurance as our chairman, heused to, I used to love him
because someone would saynuclear and he'd say, do you
know how many carbon emissionsare in the concrete that it
(38:53):
takes to build a nuclear powerstation?
It's a lot.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Fascinating.
Speaker 4 (38:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
Um, so look just, just to close, um, can you give
us any suggestions of anyspecific ways you feel
distributed ledger technologywill be delivering significant
climate change benefits in thenext few years?
Speaker 4 (39:13):
Yep.
Um, all of the supply chain workwe're doing in ag that we were
talking about before andseparating out the carbon
emissions.
Yeah.
Uh, the world wildlife fund fornature has a similar project
called open SC that will havehuge, positive impact and all
the work that is happening intokenizing carbon and, um, you
know, expanding carbon markets,bringing more transparent and
(39:36):
see all of that will have a hugepositive impact.
And then, um, there's a fewthings we're working on, which,
because we're a listed company Ican't talk about.
Um, but there'll be a lot ofinnovation in that space and a
lot of positive movement.
And I'm, you know, I don't liketo be over confident, but I'm
very confident that there'senough people like this digital
village, um, enough people whowanna do good that we're getting
(39:58):
some traction.
And I think you'll see a lot ofpositive movement out of
technology.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
Great.
Well, we're gonna stick your,um, your URL up on our website
and with the, uh, the notes tothe podcast.
So people can keep up to datewith what's going on in the
digital X world, but, uh, justfinally to close Lisa it's, it's
been a total honor to time withyou, um, all the best in the new
role and, uh, looking forward toseeing the changes that you're
gonna bring about, uh, not justin digital expert in Australia
(40:25):
and the industry as a wholefinally it's Mardi GRA yes.
Coming up.
Yes.
Um, so Jason and I will be therein Paddington.
Yeah.
The weekend watching the, thefloats and the parade go by.
What are your plans?
Don't
Speaker 4 (40:37):
See my rainbow rainbow sneakers here.
No.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Yeah.
I did see that.
They're very cool wearing
Speaker 4 (40:41):
My, um, my, my rainbow sneakers and um, well
think I'd be watching it ontelevision.
I hate to admit this year.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
You'll,
Speaker 3 (40:48):
You'll see Paul on a flight.
I'll
Speaker 2 (40:50):
See.
Speaker 5 (40:51):
Maybe,
Speaker 4 (40:52):
Well, because I was technically unemployed for two
months while I was on gardeningleave and not running the NAB
pride at work.
I didn't get a bait this year.
Oh.
So, um, but I, I just have alittle, yeah.
Go into a fringe festival eventtonight.
Okay.
Um, but you'll, you'll see me onmy couch watching and cheering
from home.
I did, um, put some rainbowflags up in the office T was
looking bit bare up there
Speaker 2 (41:13):
And there, there was a rainbow this morning across
the Harbor.
I dunno if you saw that, whattime I, I ill show you picture
later.
I took a picture from ourbalcony and I posted it on
Twitter.
I said, you're a day early.
Speaker 4 (41:24):
Oh, I hope there's one tomorrow.
I think we, I think we deservethat rainbow, but across many
fronts, many
Speaker 2 (41:29):
Fronts.
Anyway, thank you very much inindeed.
A real pleasure talking to youand, uh, we hope to see you
again soon.
Speaker 4 (41:34):
Yes.
Thank you so much for having me.
And I really love what thispodcast is doing.
And, um, I'm excited to learnabout digital village and hear
more about what, what you get upto.
Thank
Speaker 6 (41:44):
You.
Cheers now.
Bye.
Bye.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
Hope you enjoyed today.
Episode, please feel free tocheck us out on our website,
digital village.network for ourpast episodes.
We'll be back next month, but onthe last Wednesday of every
month, as we are with more greatstories and guests see you then.
Welcome back to season two, episode two of that
digital village podcast.
The show all about the latesttech trends influencing business
today's episode is all about theimpact of investing, influencing
blockchain and web 3.0, Jasonand Paul are gonna be joined by
Lisa Wade.
Who's the CEO of digital X,which is a technology investment
company focused on thecommunication of blockchain in
(00:24):
digital asset funds.
Lisa has also done someincredible work in the L G B QT
I plus community, includinggender and inclusion in the
workspace for which she recentlywas recognized by winning for
earning her block award.
So sit back and enjoy today'sepisode.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Hi Jason.
We're back in the room doing apodcast.
It's been too long.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Yeah.
In person
Speaker 2 (00:48):
In person as well.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
It's good to be here.
You've done a few online, whichhave, um, good to keep the ball
rolling, but it's actually niceto be back in
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Like keep a hand in,
Speaker 3 (00:55):
You know, and it's nice to have, um, an actual
guest in person as well.
Makes a
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Difference.
Welcome, Lisa.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Hello.
And you we've brought out thesunshine.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
We
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Have.
Yes.
For our listeners.
We've been in rain actuallydrenched in rain for the last
two weeks.
Um, but it looks like it'sfinally stopped.
So look, today's, um, subject is, uh, this is episode seven of
our podcast series.
Um, we've been focusing on alot, lot of different areas to
do with, um, the environment,climate change, blockchain
(01:25):
security,
Speaker 3 (01:26):
The use of technology in, in, in, um, in society.
Right.
And people and it's applicationto business.
So
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And now we've got somebody inthe room who knows about all of
that.
Yeah.
So we can cover all thosesubjects in one go.
Um, so episode seven, how greenis your block chain?
So how impact investing isinfluencing blockchain and web
3.0.
So just as a better contexthere, Jace, um, hardly a day
goes by without papersreferencing another green
(01:55):
initiative or blockchainbusiness venture.
For many, there is an era ofobscurity and ambiguity about
these stories.
Um, when will it make adifference?
What will they cost?
What happens if jobs are lost?
And if power stations arereplaced by wind farms, is there
a killer application out therewhich will catapult blockchain
(02:16):
into the mainstream while manyhave formed investors think so,
Larry Fiker BlackRock famouslytold invest in 2020, the fund
would not invest in any businessthat didn't have a conscious and
action DSG policy in his ownwords.
What are you doing to disruptyour business?
How are you preparing for andparticipating in the net zero
(02:39):
transition as your industry getstransformed by the energy
transition, will you go the wayof the Dodo or will you be the
Phoenix in simple terms?
He's saying, I guess everybusiness needs to consider the
impact it's making.
So we're joined today, but oneof the countries leading
advocates and activists in theimpact, investing in
(02:59):
sustainability space, Lee, Wade,Lisa, lovely to have you here.
Thank you.
You've built your own impactinvestment, uh, fund you've led
NAB's digital innovation,sustainability arm.
And now your head of digital X,which we're looking forward to
hearing about here in Australia.
Uh, you've been recognized foryour tireless in the G BT, Q I
(03:20):
community.
And you continue to play anactive role in promoting gender
equality in society, in theworkplace.
And you've just won a blockyaward.
Speaker 4 (03:29):
I did,
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yes.
What was that
Speaker 4 (03:31):
For?
Uh, for in gender and inclusionleader of the year.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Congratulations.
That's fantastic.
Do want
Speaker 3 (03:37):
To, for people that don't know what a blockie award
is, do you wanna,
Speaker 4 (03:41):
Yeah, it's a, it's an award, um, voted by the
blockchain industry, um, by, outby my peers.
So, um, it's a little trophy,very heavy trophy.
And, um, it's, um, you know, Ibasically, out of all of my
peers in the blockchain industrydid more work in the L G B T and
inclusion bay.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Fantastic.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
Somehow I want it against some very good company.
So all a lot of my work atnational Australia bank yes.
And some external work that wedo with rainbow women.
And, um, I do a fair bit aswell.
Um, inclusion work in mentoring,younger women, especially L G BT
plus women and bringing themthrough, into finance and
technology.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Fantastic.
That's great.
Well, when really Jason and Iwere putting together the, uh,
the list of questions of today,we kind of stopped when we got
to 30, how we gonna 45 minutes.
So we we've had to be fairlyruthless in how we've cut this
down.
Um, but I do hope that we'll becovering subjects, which I know
that you are have.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
I'm very
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Good.
Great.
So let's get started.
Um, so let's talk with thebasics.
I mean, there are gonna bepeople listening to this who
don't understand what impactinvesting really is.
Can you give us a definition?
Speaker 4 (04:52):
Well, broadly speaking impact investing is
investing with more thanfinancial returns in the
crosshairs.
So what we look for is thesocial impact of the investments
that we make, as well as thefinancial returns.
There's different types, there'ssocial first, which means you
investors don't care so muchabout returns.
They just wanna get the socialreturn.
And then there's finance first,which is still caring about
(05:14):
returns more, um, but alsowanting to have the positive
social impact.
There's very many, uh,definition.
And my passion at the moment iswhat I'm calling the race to
authentic investments and reallyusing technology to bring
granularity into impactinvesting and stop the greenwash
and stop all of this talk.
And I, um, you know, probablyabout five years ago realized
(05:38):
that blockchain technology wasperfect for that.
And the moment I could see itand unsee it.
So we've been doing a lot ofwork in that space to, um, to,
to build and create, um, toolsand systems that can measure
impact.
And tokenization is one of thetools that we've been using so
that we can start to get somegranularity in impact returns,
(05:58):
which I believe will actuallymake impact investing
mainstream.
And I'm really excited to bedoing this work in the space, um
, right inside of NAB.
We started with project carbon,which was tokenizing carbon.
Yep.
And I also have a little passionproject called Naomi where we've
worked out how to tokenizeimpact and you'll see some
exciting things happen throughthat over the next couple of
(06:19):
years.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Great.
And just for the uninitiatedtokens, how, how can you explain
how tokens fit into
Speaker 4 (06:26):
This?
Well, I can explain how about Isimplify tokens?
Uh, so tokens are basically, uh,in the way that we use them
taking the rigor, that side offinancial instruments and
programming them into computerprograms that then, um, create,
um, a digital version of thefinancial security or a digital
(06:48):
twin.
If you like at its simplestlevel at its most complex level,
say in renewable energy plants,we can digitally originate, um,
securities tokens by using thedata on site from great
projects.
However, the world is not readyfor that.
So we just keep it simple.
We do digital twins, we take thefinancial contract, could be
(07:08):
your home loan, could be thetitle to a building.
Uh, we take all the, the detailsinside of that.
Like all of the maths inside ofthat, we do a little computer
program and that computerprogram represents the loan or
the security or the investment.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Right, right.
Okay.
So, so you are now see digital X.
I am.
Yes.
Um, and I was just reading theirlatest interim and financial
statement.
Um, and they're saying they'reputting a big emphasis on
sustainability and ESG.
It's no coincidence then theyyou've just become the CEO.
That is not
Speaker 4 (07:40):
A coincidence.
No.
Um, as I said, my campaign atthe moment is the race to
authentic investments.
Yeah.
And digital X is an incrediblecompany, uh, and very active in
blockchain.
And I think it would be fair tosay, um, that there are concerns
about the E the environmentalimpact of blockchain.
I am.
One of those people is concernedabout the environmental impact,
(08:01):
not only of everything, but alsoblockchain.
And so, um, part of the reasonwhy I've come on board at
digital X is for digital X toactually become a good company,
as well as a great company.
So the first thing that we'vedone, um, is we have signed up
to the world economic forum,sustainability framework, which
is a, a, a framework forreporting for corporations so
(08:24):
that we can actually all, um,report the same data points.
I don't know how deep you gointo sustainable finance, but
there are so many surveys, somany different things we could
do.
Um, what, what we are doing iswe're saying the first step
towards sustainability is tomeasure.
Yes.
And then obviously me being me,there'll be lots of initiatives
where, um, you know, where thedigital X will, uh, transform
(08:48):
into a sustainable company.
And, um, I'm really excitedabout that journey we're going
to take yes.
And, um, you know, verycommitted to being, um, you
know, we're throwing aroundwords like green crypto and, um,
you know, really leading in thatspace.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
So Jason, you, you and I have spent some time with
people in the ag tech area, uh,doing carbon sequestration
projects and, and looking at, uh, carbon capture.
Yeah.
And one of the problems theyfaced in that area was how do we
measure this stuff?
That's right.
Yeah.
Because, you know, the end ofthe day, they're not gonna get
carbon credits.
Yeah.
If they can't measure itaccurately.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
That's right.
I mean, if there's, I mean,following any, any kind of
framework, it's as good as theinformation that it starts with.
So, um, you know, how can youvalidate or verify the
effectiveness us of a project ifyou can't effectively measure
the actual impact itself or the,where you're starting from,
which is a, a huge challenge.
And I was, it was actually, Iwas keen to see, understand, um,
(09:46):
in, you know, what yourexperience had been with that of
actually being able to havelike, measuring impact in, um,
yeah.
In some of the projects thatyou've been involved in.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Look, I mean, you may havetapped into one of my favorite
topics of all time.
So, um, we've been doing a lotof work in that space.
And one of the things thatexcited me about going to
digital X is digital X has alittle, um, governance business
called Drawbridge, which hasbeen built across the ASX chess
system.
Another piece of work that we'dbeen doing was with KPMG, um, in
(10:18):
a project called origins, which,um, they're, they've got that
they were the first ever pilotonto the ASX blockchain.
And, um, in that project, um,what we brought it to the table
at NAB was, um, the digitalorigination of the carbon and
experimenting with that for percarbon.
So, um, I passionately believethat if we start originating
(10:42):
data at source in ag projects,then it's cheaper, faster, and
smarter to verify the carbon andverify the activity.
And so we can measure it andalso record it.
And if we create the data insideof that as an asset that is
saleable, whether it's impact orcarbon or whatever that may be,
um, then that can create thefinancial framework that we need
(11:04):
to monetize carbon to create thevalue that we need to, to have
the impact.
Because what we have right nowis, um, and, you know, we were
talking about Microsoft earlier.
Microsoft are a great example.
If I measure the total impact oftheir company over the
generation and the impact thatthey they've had, it's enormous.
But what they're saying is they,they wanna neutralize that for
(11:26):
the history of the company.
Yeah.
And how do they yeah.
How do they do that?
You have to measure, and then ithas to be paid for.
So if I've got a price ofcarbon, that's a dollar a ton,
then that doesn't really meananything because they, I can
pay, you know, a few hundredthousand dollars of all of the
hundreds of billions.
I mean, they might, might haveeven made a trillion dollars.
I don't know.
Um, but they wanna pay thatbill, but if there's not a great
(11:48):
price on carbon, then, um, thatbill isn't very big.
And right now, once you start tothink about the world like this,
everything I look at, I see twoprices.
I see the price I pay and theprice that's cost the
environment.
Yeah.
And once we start thinking likethat, you can't, unthink it.
And you start to realize that wereally need a price for carbon
to be able to start to pay theworld back.
(12:11):
I mean, there are companieswhich I want at name that
technically speaking, if Ilooked, if, if I had to, if I
charged them, if I sent them abill, uh, for the carbon
emissions that they've createdon this planet and destroying,
uh, you know, rainforest, Palmoil, all of those things, then
they would, it would actuallybankrupt those companies.
And they've been making moneyfrom doing that.
(12:31):
Yeah.
And
Speaker 3 (12:31):
I mean, the cost has gotta come from
Speaker 4 (12:33):
Somewhere around, well, we're paying the price.
Yeah.
I mean, and, um, you know, Idon't wanna be one of those
table thumping climate changeshere, but look at what we were
talking about before two yearsago, we were sitting in the
middle of bushfires.
Then we had a global pandemic,which if you read all of the
research pandemics, a part ofthe impact of climate change,
and now we're sitting here,there are fly in new south
(12:54):
Wales.
It has rained continuously inSydney for two weeks.
And there were people surfing atBemo beach.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Yeah, yeah.
So there's, there's definitely aconsequence to these things, but
from, from where you sit indigital X, how much of an impact
can you have to bring aboutchange?
Speaker 4 (13:12):
Oh, so much.
I mean, this change, I reallythink needs to be driven from
technology technology is thegame changer.
Um, you know, there's so manycliches about, you know, if you
wanna be crazy, do the samething over and over definition
of insanity, do the same thingover and over again.
And I believe that's attributedto Einstein.
Um, literally technology is the,the stick in all for that.
(13:35):
And, um, digital X is atechnology company and we will
invest in, we also have aventures, um, and we will invest
in those technologies and wewill be part of the conversation
in transforming what we'recalling web 3.0.
Um, I call it finance 3.0, butliterally money is the oxygen
that funds all of the good andall of the bad.
And, um, you know, I'm excitedto be part of a listed company,
(13:59):
a great little company locatedin Perth.
Yes.
And, um, and you know, with areally good focus and we will
make a difference
Speaker 2 (14:06):
And now you can go there
Speaker 4 (14:07):
And now I can go
Speaker 2 (14:10):
The Republic of Perth.
Yeah.
So just coming back to theblockchain thing.
Yeah.
Um, Lisa blockchain's beingdescribed as the kind of
backbone for web 3.0, but theclimate change lobby draws
attention to the energyconsumption, demands of creating
blockchain.
So what's your response to that?
(14:31):
What do you think can be done?
Well,
Speaker 4 (14:33):
I often get asked that question, uh, obviously
given what I do and, um, youknow, the truly geeky answer is
that, um, the energy thatBitcoin uses is half a percent
of world energy and us househouseholds are 11 and a half
percent of world energy.
So you do the maths.
You know, I think the averagemat in the street is, has more
impact than blockchain.
(14:53):
And I really think it'simportant for technology to own
their environmental impact.
And that is a lot of the workthat we'll be doing as a
business, um, to be transparentabout our energy emissions.
And, you know, all of theleading corporates in the world
are talking about nets.
It's too early for me to talkabout that with digital X,
however, there's this hugeopportunity in, in, you know,
(15:17):
like tokenizing, carbontokenizing impact, um, really
owning the, um, emissions forblockchain, um, to have more
renewable energy.
Like we know the maths, if wecan fund solar and wind, we can
reduce our emissions.
If we use renewable energy tomine, Bitcoin, then, um,
(15:37):
effectively that it's carbonneutral Bitcoin.
And there's lots of projectsstarting to do that.
Um, you know, off the record, Imay or may not know the CEO of a
renewable energy company basedin Melbourne that their largest
client is a bit Bitcoin minor.
Like there's many, many thingswe can do as technologists to
create.
Um, you know, we play aroundwith grain crypto and, you know,
we joke around about it, but,but why not?
(15:59):
I mean, web 3.0 has this amazingopportunity to rebuild finance
from the good up and, um, andto, you know, really focus on
know carbon emissions, ourimpact on the world, not solve
one problem whilst creatinganother.
Mm.
Um, but to actually, you know,embrace this new world that we
(16:21):
need to move into and, um, do itin an, in a way that's
profitable for everybody,including not destroying a
planet anymore because we'vedone a good job of that so far.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
So we had Rob Allen in a few months back,
Speaker 4 (16:34):
One of my favorite people
Speaker 2 (16:35):
And Rob obviously works with Hadera hash graph.
Yeah.
Now they have a differentapproach to creating the
distributed ledger, which uses afraction of the energy required
in blockchain.
Do you think that's gonna becomea, sort of a competitive
advantage that all organizationswill start looking for
distributed ledger suppliers whoare kind of low energy
(16:59):
consumption sources?
Speaker 4 (17:02):
Oh, absolutely.
I'm a huge fan of Hadera and ahuge fan of any green, um,
blockchain.
So even in Naomi, um, it wasoriginally built on a theorum I
say it like that, cause that's aJoe Luin says it.
Um, he knows, but Ethereum, assome people would call it, um,
but we built that on a theorumand then we pivoted onto polygon
(17:22):
, um, because it had a lowerenvironmental footprint.
And, um, and I'm in deep talkswith Hadera to also build on, on
that chain.
And I think we all need to beconscious of, of the impact of
the chains.
And I do think it will be acompetitive, competitive
advantage, um, and people reallyneed to look at what they need
(17:42):
from a chain when they'redeveloping, because every chain
has, you know, pros and cons anddifferent impacts and, um, you
know, Hadera is great.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
Yeah.
And I, I, I was just gonna say,I mean, I suppose it's, you
know, in terms of the impact oftechnology and blockchain
technology, that's evolvingquite rapidly and, you know,
whereas Bitcoin, um, it probablymight have a bigger impact than,
um, many others.
Um, you know, there's a, ofprogression towards and being
more sustainable and moreefficient anyway.
So it'll probably become less ofan, an issue as time goes on.
Speaker 4 (18:15):
Yeah, absolutely.
And even a theorum is moving to,um, proof of state versus proof
of work and, and that, thatreduces the carbon impact and
the environmental impactdramatically.
So there's lots of evolutionhappen and I mean, let's face
it.
Blockchain is just a whole lotof servers and I can guarantee
you, I haven't done the maps andmaybe I will.
(18:36):
The, all of the banks in theworld with all of their servers
would have equal impact to, um,what we are doing and what
people are doing in blockchain.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
So,
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Yeah, true.
Yeah.
I think it's a lot, a lot of itis to do with the optics
because, you know, for, forquite a while now, when people
have, have, um, referred towhere the mining is taking place
and the kind of powerconsumption required, you know,
you see, you see these, um,these, these server farms being
set up in remote valleys in, in,in the sort of, um, the way, way
(19:09):
back in the hem layerssomewhere, you know, nobody's
ever heard of it, but there's aplace there where they do mining
because it's, they're right nextto a power plant and there's a
lot of energy required.
So, and it's cheap, you know,
Speaker 4 (19:20):
So I wrote something I'm, I'm also on the board of
blockchain, Australia, and wewere marking up a paper.
And, um, I, I wrote somethingthe other day that I just said,
unfortunately, every time youhave a human being involved, um,
there is a chance that they willbe a criminal and they'll commit
fraud or they'll damage theenvironment because, and, and
(19:41):
that's not gonna stop happeninguntil there are no more people.
Yeah.
Because there, you know, there'salways bad actors, there's bad
actors in everything.
We've got people counterfeitingmoney.
Yeah.
We have people that banks, um, Icould, I have, I have people,
you know, doing what I do for solong.
You know, I, I have been bailedup at events by chief executive
offices of coal mining companiestelling me how bad solar is.
(20:03):
Yes.
Um, because we have to mine therare earth to, um, create solar
panels.
Yes.
And, you know, there's noperfect answer.
Humans have impact wereextremely evolved creatures, you
know, look at this buildingwe're sitting and it's
beautiful.
However, it, you know, it takes
Speaker 3 (20:19):
From the ground, I mean, takes from something.
Yep.
Exactly.
Speaker 4 (20:21):
Everything we do except surfing.
Maybe
Speaker 3 (20:25):
There's, there's a, um, one of my favorite sayings
actually by, um, saddle goodo,which you may be familiar with.
I know you're a, you OGI.
And, um, and he says that theworld is at a point now where we
have the technology and thecapability and intelligence to,
to solve many of the, theworld's problems.
Um, and I probably don't wannaget into the question of why
(20:47):
that hasn't happened, but Isuppose, you know, it's
interesting to, um, um, youknow, I guess there's more of an
immediate need now than thereever, ever has been as well.
But, um, you know, I guess asinterested what the commercial
opportunity of impact investingis, um, and also what the role
(21:08):
of technology, um, has in that
Speaker 4 (21:11):
Look, I think it's, um, if you add up the whole
opportunity, it is the greatesteconomic opportunity of our
generation.
And I include in that transitionto a low carbon economy and also
equality across all metrics.
And I, I genuinely agree withthat quote, um, and what we
don't have and what is missingis the resources and the belief
(21:33):
because, um, the change could behappening now.
However, we have these legacysystems and ecosystems that
don't want to be torn down.
Mm.
So right now, why am I sopassionate about finance 3.0 web
3.0, because I can removelayers, layers of cost, layers
of admin, mountains of papersystems, uh, systems.
(21:55):
Yeah.
And those systems don't wanna beremoved.
And then those creating the newsystems need resources.
Yes.
And, um, that's why I'm soexcited about joining a company
like digital X, because what doI have that I've never had
before?
I have this amazing team ofdevelopers and, you know, fellow
people who want to change theworld.
And, um, you know, what we needwhere we need to start first is
(22:17):
unfortunately some of the mostboring bits, which is RegTech
and making sure that we havereally sound financial systems
that we're building.
Cause there will always be badactors and see bad behavior in
all financial markets.
Yes.
And crypto is no exception.
And the art and mastery for allof us is going to be avoiding
the bad actors and reallybuilding the good financial
(22:40):
ecosystems and having the rightpeople come on board.
And, you know, one of the thingswe've never been able to do in
impact investing is measure toprove that you can make superior
financial returns through impactinvesting.
Now, when we said that 16 yearsago, we like I've been called
crazy.
And, um, let me tell you, Idon't sound so crazy now.
(23:00):
Well,
Speaker 3 (23:01):
Exactly.
And so there's a, there's amassive shift in, um, I guess
humanities recognition of theneed to change.
And, and I guess where I wasleading to that question is, um,
that people are more aware andmore interested and you can see
that by the amount of investmentin that area, which I, you know,
(23:24):
I don't know if, I think it'slike 70 trillion market or
something like that, whereas 10years ago that was, is
definitely not the case.
Speaker 4 (23:31):
Yeah.
And, and, um, absolutely.
And then if you sort of a littlebit, um, of you are like a
little bit of a zealot like me,then you drill down into the
numbers and a lot of that is notactually authentic.
Yeah.
And um, only about 10% of allcapital attributed to
sustainable finance right now isgenuinely and authentically
invested for impact.
(23:53):
Um, and you know, one of thereasons why I'm, where I am
today is because as a globalequities portfolio manager, um,
you know, I was so passionateabout, about sustainable finance
.
I had this portfolio that I'dhandcrafted, you know, I created
the investment universe, Ihandpicked all of the stocks and
it just didn't feel authenticbecause it was only over like
(24:14):
51% of earnings or, you know,there were other unintended
consequences of the actions ofthe company.
And I came to realize that weneed to invest more in real
assets and direct investment.
And that has sent me on a verystrange path in my career, but I
am sitting here today.
I'm still standing.
And obviously that was withBendigo bank when we were
building community super.
And, you know, we did the RA ETFas, as a cornerstone for that.
(24:38):
And you know, all of the work atnav with all of the renewable
energy investment and the lowcarbon shared portfolio.
And now we, we need to deploymore capital and, and faster and
more authentically, cuz it's notokay for large funds to, um,
talk about sustainability unlessthey're direct investing.
Yeah.
Uh, because a global equitiesportfolio, there aren't enough
(24:59):
companies genuinely doing thegood to have a portfolio.
It's like to me, it's likeshooting fish in a barrel.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
So, so is, is there likely to be a body that will
provide that kind of, um,measurement and all disability
behind this?
Do you think behind theinvestments, you know, like
where to, so you're saying inyour report and accounts yeah.
That you're doing this amount ofinvestment in becoming green,
prove it.
Speaker 4 (25:25):
Well, that's why, um, that, where I think the world of
the work of the world economicforum can really come into the
forum because, you know, if youthink about my role at digital
X, I've got two things I have tosolve for, I've got a fund that
invests in this new economy.
Um, so I need to understand whatI'm investing in there and what
the impact that is.
Yes.
Um, there's a huge number ofcrypto funds that are emerging.
(25:46):
Um, and then, um, to understandthe impact of the business and,
you know, our balance sheet andthe investments that we're
making and you know, our staffand, you know, everyone, you
know, loves to do the J scope 1,2, 3, but it's really important
for all businesses to understandthat.
And it's not okay to say my,that my, my head office is
carbon neutral because I paidfor a renewable energy.
(26:08):
Yeah.
Everybody needs to understandthe ripple effect of what we are
doing so that collectively, um,we can all be green.
Um, and you know, in terms ofinvesting, even activist
shareholding to me is sort ofhalf a step.
It's a good step.
And I don't wanna be critical ofanybody.
I think it's really importantthat we are where we are,
(26:30):
because if 90% of funds areattributing to sustainable
finance, guess what?
That's the easy part.
That's the hard part is, was toget people to actually agree
that sustainable finance hadlongevity.
Yes.
And now we can move them intowhat, what, you know, we call it
the continuum of, um, lightgreen to dark green and gray is
(26:52):
terrible.
Um, and we can move once peopleare light green, which is the
90% we can move them all the waydown to the dark green because
you're preaching to the choirthen.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Cause people they're on that journey.
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (27:01):
They're on the journey.
Yeah.
Once people are on the journey,the hardest part was getting
people on the journey.
Sure.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
How, how far do you think we are from that, you
know, jump or that over thatthreshold into, from gray to, to
light green?
Speaker 4 (27:14):
Um, I think so from, well, from gray to light green,
90% to the right number, butthen light green to dark green.
Um, we are 10 years away and weneed to be there yesterday.
Oh, okay.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
In my opinion.
And like, I wish we were therenow.
Um, but there's, um, just walkinto any pub in Sydney and say
(27:35):
that you're an impact investorand, um, and hear the commentary
and one out of 10 people will,um, be all for it.
And nine of town will be like,oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
But you know, like you can'tmake any money and you know, so
yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
So just from a kind of a, a reputational standpoint,
obviously, you know, we'rewatching things unfold in the
Ukraine, um, which is, you know,absolutely dreadful to watch.
And we, we will hope that thatwill resolve itself.
But one of the consequences ofwhat's happened in Ukraine has
been the people's confidence incrypto because there've been a
(28:10):
number well, it daily reportsabout, uh, NFT rug pools and
cryptocurrency tanking again.
And I mean, if you are an activeinvestor and you are trying to
back things up withcryptocurrency, doesn't that
present a, a huge amount of risk
Speaker 4 (28:26):
Look, one of the great lessons I've learned in
life is it's equal, good, equal,bad, and some may use the
metaphor of a coin that there'stwo sides to a coin.
Um, there are actually threesides to the coin.
The third side is the edge.
And we'll speak to that in asecond.
So on the dark side of the coinof this, obviously people are
saying that are, you know, theRussian government and, and, you
(28:48):
know, high net worth are using,um, crypto to avoid all of the
sanctions and having
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Their assets frozen,
Speaker 4 (28:55):
Something, having the assets frozen and, you know, and
that, that may be the case onthe other side of the coin we're
having, um, you know, impact, um, you know, philanthropists
raising money equal in Ukraine,through the crypto markets, um,
so equal, good, equal, bad.
Um, and then at the edge is, youknow, this world that we can
create, um, with the newtransparency that there is, um,
(29:18):
and that, you know, we reallycan create one world and it's
much easier to support people,uh, from Australia with these
new financial markets.
Cause let me tell you, I wouldnot know how to convert into the
Ukrainian, whatever it is or theRussian rub for that matter, if
it still exists, don't evenknow.
Um, but if I can send a fewBitcoin, um, and to, to help
(29:40):
somebody, then why not?
And I think that this new way ofdoing things in this new way of
working that we have in thesenew financial systems is worth
it.
And I think it's worth doing thework and, and we can all be at
our edge and really pushourselves to see past, um, you
know, any rhetoric around thingslike Bitcoin, not having an
intrinsic value being used forfraud.
(30:01):
Um, you know, it'sextraordinarily traceable.
Um, it's very, it's kind of oldfashioned to think that, um, you
know, you, that, um, criminalscan only criminals use Bitcoin.
Um, it really can be used forgood.
And one of the examples leadingby example, um, on Monday is my
first ever paid a at digital X.
(30:22):
And, um, I'm going to get paidpart of my salary in Bitcoin.
Oh wow.
And I can, once I start payingfor my coffees in Bitcoin, um,
then people start to see thatthere's an intrinsic value.
I hope it's not the milliondollar pizza, But I I'm gonna
give it a go.
And, um, and, and being theenvironmentalist that I am, I do
a lot of work with carbonstartups.
(30:42):
So beta carbon in Australia andmeta Carn in New York, which is
carbon NFTs.
And I'll be buying a littlerhino every time, every payday
too, just to balance off my, anycarbon footprint of the Bitcoin
that I earn.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
So talking a little more about that.
Tell us, what's your experiencebeen with NFTs?
Have you, have you sort ofbroadly you invested or have you
very sort of cherry picked verycarefully?
Speaker 4 (31:07):
Look, I am a finance geek and, and what doesn't come
across with me.
I'm a portfolio manager, so I amrisk first.
So I only invest in things Iunderstand, and I do a lot of
work.
Um, NFTs can, can be great.
Like I, I did a panel last nightfor, um, international women's
day, next week for consensus.
And there was an art NFT girl onthere and I was like, wow, I
(31:27):
wanna go and buy art NFTs.
Yeah.
Because it's helping the artistcommunity so much.
The only NFTs that I own, um,are, um, my meta carbo carbon, I
call'em carbon critters, butthey actually call carbon
creatures.
So I own a rhino and I own aturtle.
Right.
Uh, we're doing some work making, um, turtle NFTs for a carbon
(31:49):
project in Kaun too, which isreally cool.
Right.
Um, to restore some man groups.
Yeah.
Um, and also as part of myinterview for digital X, I made
a commemorative NFT.
Um, if the board gave me therole, so there are four of
those.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
And, um, not that you were trying to sway them at all.
Speaker 4 (32:05):
Well, I, the board still haven't had them dropped
into their wallet yet.
There's no bribery.
It was just, I, I, I figured ifI wanted to, um, go for, you
know, such a great role as a CEOof a technology company, I had
to pull something out of my hat.
Yeah.
Cool.
So I, I did, um, follow, didtear a little page out of Ross
McEwen and NAS book and wrote ahandwritten letter as well.
(32:26):
Yes.
And then I was like, well,that's not really gonna cut it
for a tech business.
So
Speaker 2 (32:30):
To end the spectrum.
Speaker 4 (32:30):
Exactly.
So I made a little NFT.
Um, my, I did that myself,actually, I bootstrap, I was
quite, quite proud of my effortand I did on the avalanche
Speaker 3 (32:39):
Network.
I was gonna say, what did youuse?
Yeah,
Speaker 4 (32:41):
Yeah.
I used the avalanche networkcause that's also a, a quite low
emissions network.
And, um, and I wanted to playaround with that network to get
a little bit more insideknowledge on it and
Speaker 3 (32:51):
Yeah,
Speaker 2 (32:52):
For fun.
Fascinating.
So look, um, new role at digitalX CEO.
Can you tell us a little bit ofabout what you're hoping to
achieve in the first 12 months?
Speaker 4 (33:01):
Well, hard with a listed company.
Uh, what I can say yes.
Uh, what I can say
Speaker 2 (33:08):
Is no numbers, no
Speaker 4 (33:09):
Numbers, no, just expect much greener focus.
Um, you know, we, I really,really hand on my heart, want to
lead Australia into this reallysustainable wor world authentic.
Um, my dream would come true ifI can have my listed stock in
the portfolio of funds that Iadmire, like Australian ethical,
(33:32):
because I've done a good job.
Um, you know, I'm going to berefreshing the strategy.
Um, you'll see a lot of green onthe pay age there too.
And not maybe talking aboutmoney, maybe just talking about
environment who knows, can'treally say it's a listed
company.
Yeah.
And, um, the piece of work thatI'm really excited about as well
as we're doing a lot of work onour purpose and, um, right.
(33:52):
Will be a purpose ledorganization.
And when we've developed thepurpose statement, that will be
something that, um, you know,comes from my team.
And, you know, one, one thingthat really resonated when I
interviewed was when I met theteam, everybody was very aligned
to my background and, you know,it's a young team of great
people, great developers, greatfinance team, great fund
(34:15):
managers.
And, um, they all really wannahave a positive impact.
So we're gonna all work togethera purpose statement and you'll
see that come through.
Speaker 3 (34:22):
That sounds like
Speaker 4 (34:23):
And made money for shareholders.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
Yeah.
Cause it, yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Oh yes.
Shareholders as well.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
Well, I mean, I guess it's interesting.
I mean that they're kind of, um,interrelated, um, purpose and,
and, and value and profit andthere's um, I guess it's, again,
going back to the progression orevolution of business over time
where much of the moreconventional and traditional
corporations were built ontaking to, um, to, and then
(34:53):
making profits from a cost, um,as opposed to now, with which
with more purpose, um, drivenbusinesses, creating impact and
the rise of impact in investingand coming from, um, society,
having more of a value on impactbecause it's becoming more
evident that it's more importantright now.
I mean, floods and everythingthat's been happening.
(35:15):
So my question is, um, what isthe purpose of business?
Speaker 4 (35:22):
I think purpose of business is to create a better
world because you need commerce.
Um, and every business shouldhave the thing that they're
doing to help people and to helpmake the world better.
And when that comes toshareholder value, when we can
quantify that and we canattribute returns to that,
that's when the rubber willreally hit the road at the
(35:42):
moment in large corporates,people are measured by the
bottom line and nobody cares.
Well, nobody has really caredhow that money gets made.
If you start identifying, hangon, you may have made a million
dollars, but it costs the world.
1.8 million.
You've lost me.
You've lost the world 1.8million, our shareholders don't
like that, cuz that isattributed to shareholder value.
(36:04):
Yes, that is when we're gonnastart to see change.
And at digital X that's onething that I aim to do is to
really like have attributionaround our returns and be able
to say, you know, we canquantify that we made this money
cuz we did this good.
Um, and whatever that good ishow we invest, um, you know,
things like Drawbridge with theRegTech and helping people, not
(36:24):
inside a trade, you know?
Yes.
We'll be able to quantify that.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
So there's, there's a , I, I may be reading something
into this that isn't there, butthere's a certain paradox behind
the fact you are based in Perth,which is the side of the con,
which is having the biggestimpact on the environment.
Speaker 4 (36:40):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
Yeah.
I mean, how do you kind of,
Speaker 4 (36:43):
Oh my gosh.
Well, so we're part of a, aresearch, a CRC, um, which is
backed by quite a number oflarge organizations.
We're probably the little minnowin the research co C it's a
digital CRC.
So it's a research consortium.
Okay.
Okay.
Um, backed by these Australiangovernment, it's like a matching
and oh yeah.
Um, and most of the projects,um, so it's about tokenization
(37:04):
and digital assets and most ofthe projects are, um, that are
being proposed, areenvironmental.
And one of them, interestingly,something I'm very passionate
about is, um, resources that arestill in the ground, um,
contributing value to eitherkeeping them there.
Or there are some, you know,rare earths that we really,
really need, but then why are weselling the rare earth?
(37:28):
Um, ex carbon?
Yeah.
It should be packaged andbundled up, bundled up.
And between all of us, guesswhat we can already do.
We can already tokenize carbon.
We can already, already tokenizea commodity.
Yeah.
So, you know, with the market,we'll be, you know, contributing
to conversations like that.
And um, you know, look at what,I can't even believe I'm saying
(37:49):
this, but, um, look at whatFortu and Andrew for is doing.
I know, you know, when we wereEcofin in 2011.
Yeah.
Um, he, he had a young guyworking for him that called me
up and he said, I wanna putrenewable energy next to the
mine.
And I'm like, you're a legend.
Yeah.
And we worked on that project.
Like they, they, they weregenuinely thinking about impact
now.
(38:09):
Yes.
And, and I I've been on therecord as being quite cynical
about hydrogen.
Obviously if it's, you know,powered by oil than it's no
different or coal than it's nodifferent to, to, to, um, you
know, using a coal five housestation, but you know, blue,
hydrogen and green hydrogengreen hydrogen, I should say, um
, will have a hugely POS huge,positive impact on the world.
(38:30):
And, you know, we need moregreen sources of energy.
And, um, you know, obviously theelephant in the room there is
nuclear, but, um, you know, backin the day when we had Tony
Coleman, who was the, um, chief,you know, head of risk, IAG
insurance as our chairman, heused to, I used to love him
because someone would saynuclear and he'd say, do you
know how many carbon emissionsare in the concrete that it
(38:53):
takes to build a nuclear powerstation?
It's a lot.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Fascinating.
Speaker 4 (38:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
Um, so look just, just to close, um, can you give
us any suggestions of anyspecific ways you feel
distributed ledger technologywill be delivering significant
climate change benefits in thenext few years?
Speaker 4 (39:13):
Yep.
Um, all of the supply chain workwe're doing in ag that we were
talking about before andseparating out the carbon
emissions.
Yeah.
Uh, the world wildlife fund fornature has a similar project
called open SC that will havehuge, positive impact and all
the work that is happening intokenizing carbon and, um, you
know, expanding carbon markets,bringing more transparent and
(39:36):
see all of that will have a hugepositive impact.
And then, um, there's a fewthings we're working on, which,
because we're a listed company Ican't talk about.
Um, but there'll be a lot ofinnovation in that space and a
lot of positive movement.
And I'm, you know, I don't liketo be over confident, but I'm
very confident that there'senough people like this digital
village, um, enough people whowanna do good that we're getting
(39:58):
some traction.
And I think you'll see a lot ofpositive movement out of
technology.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
Great.
Well, we're gonna stick your,um, your URL up on our website
and with the, uh, the notes tothe podcast.
So people can keep up to datewith what's going on in the
digital X world, but, uh, justfinally to close Lisa it's, it's
been a total honor to time withyou, um, all the best in the new
role and, uh, looking forward toseeing the changes that you're
gonna bring about, uh, not justin digital expert in Australia
(40:25):
and the industry as a wholefinally it's Mardi GRA yes.
Coming up.
Yes.
Um, so Jason and I will be therein Paddington.
Yeah.
The weekend watching the, thefloats and the parade go by.
What are your plans?
Don't
Speaker 4 (40:37):
See my rainbow rainbow sneakers here.
No.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Yeah.
I did see that.
They're very cool wearing
Speaker 4 (40:41):
My, um, my, my rainbow sneakers and um, well
think I'd be watching it ontelevision.
I hate to admit this year.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
You'll,
Speaker 3 (40:48):
You'll see Paul on a flight.
I'll
Speaker 2 (40:50):
See.
Speaker 5 (40:51):
Maybe,
Speaker 4 (40:52):
Well, because I was technically unemployed for two
months while I was on gardeningleave and not running the NAB
pride at work.
I didn't get a bait this year.
Oh.
So, um, but I, I just have alittle, yeah.
Go into a fringe festival eventtonight.
Okay.
Um, but you'll, you'll see me onmy couch watching and cheering
from home.
I did, um, put some rainbowflags up in the office T was
looking bit bare up there
Speaker 2 (41:13):
And there, there was a rainbow this morning across
the Harbor.
I dunno if you saw that, whattime I, I ill show you picture
later.
I took a picture from ourbalcony and I posted it on
Twitter.
I said, you're a day early.
Speaker 4 (41:24):
Oh, I hope there's one tomorrow.
I think we, I think we deservethat rainbow, but across many
fronts, many
Speaker 2 (41:29):
Fronts.
Anyway, thank you very much inindeed.
A real pleasure talking to youand, uh, we hope to see you
again soon.
Speaker 4 (41:34):
Yes.
Thank you so much for having me.
And I really love what thispodcast is doing.
And, um, I'm excited to learnabout digital village and hear
more about what, what you get upto.
Thank
Speaker 6 (41:44):
You.
Cheers now.
Bye.
Bye.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
Hope you enjoyed today.
Episode, please feel free tocheck us out on our website,
digital village.network for ourpast episodes.
We'll be back next month, but onthe last Wednesday of every
month, as we are with more greatstories and guests see you then.
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