challenging conventions: a deep dive into the complex world of product management

🚀 ready for a paradigm shift? tune in to our podcast for a dynamic discussion with a seasoned product management pro!

are you eager to revolutionize your understanding of product management? join us on our podcast as we bring you an exhilarating conversation with a seasoned product management expert. get ready to challenge the status quo and gain fresh insights that could reshape your entire perspective.

🔍 key takeaways

in this episode, you'll uncover eye-opening revelations that could transform your product management approach:

• rethink the conventional focus on profits
• demystify the concept of product-market fit
• discover the pitfalls of feature factories
• navigate the effects of leadership transitions on products
• learn to strike a balance between passion and practicality

🌟 power dynamics in product management

listen closely as we dissect the intricate dynamics that define product management triumphs:

• explore the impact of strong personalities on product outcomes
• understand the pivotal role of data-driven decision-making
• empower your team to craft solutions with a lasting impact
• build a foundation of trust and accountability for guaranteed success
• learn how to effectively gauge customer value to refine your strategy

🔥 lessons from the trenches

gain valuable insights from real-world challenges and experiences:

• discover how to maintain integrity in the face of adversity
• navigate job exits with grace and professionalism
• grasp the evolving nature of product-market fit
• understand the significance of delivering customer value

🔑 final thoughts:

as the episode concludes, absorb these essential takeaways:

• embrace personal growth through challenges
• anchor your success in a value-driven product management approach

🎯 ready to dive into a transformational podcast episode?

don't miss out on this enlightening conversation that has the power to redefine your perception of product management. tune in to gain a wealth of insights and strategies that could reshape the way you approach product creation. listen now for a truly transformative experience.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome to the Disaster Recovery Podcast.
I'm your host, josh Santow, andthis is the show where we
reveal the untold horror storiesand hard-learn lessons of
software as a service start-uplife as told by the sassholes
who lived through it.
Their stories about themanagers, departments and
companies they worked for willleave you thinking what a
disaster.
Our mission is to help youbring order and sanity to the

(00:30):
chaos you will undoubtedlyencounter in your own adventures
in sass.
There's stories andconversations with our guests
who have been there and donethat in all aspects of sass from
sales, marketing, product andmore you'll get the tools and
insights you need to recoverfrom disaster.
On this episode, we'reexamining why building a product

(00:55):
just for the sole purpose ofmaking money by any means
necessary including things thatyou probably wouldn't once said
out loud versus solving anactual problem and bringing
value, how that's a bad thing.
We're going to talk about thefailings of feature factories
and how to know if you're in one.

(01:16):
We're also going to dig deepinto product market fit, what it
feels like when you have it,how fleeting or elusive it can
be, and the role of executivesor leadership in changing the
trajectory of a product or,ultimately, a company, and we'll
also dig into why it'simportant to balance enthusiasm
about your company, about yourproduct, with a healthy spoonful

(01:39):
of practicality.
Slash thinking for yourself,slash skepticism.
Now, I know I certainly learnedsome tough lessons firsthand
when I experienced similarsituations, so I can't wait to
share the story of our nextguest very similar but different
experience.
Speaking of our next guest, hehas nearly a decade of product

(01:59):
management experience in SaaSfor major, established companies
and up and coming startups, andhe's held a wide array of
positions within softwarecompanies, climbing from a
starting position as productmanager to eventually being in
charge of an entire product.
We're going to hear about hisexperience navigating the
challenges of maintainingproduct market fit while the

(02:21):
company undergoes changes.
And before we do, as always, aquick disclaimer the stories
that we share here on theDisaster Recovery Podcast are
based on anonymous, individualexperiences at real companies.
The goal in sharing thesestories and perspectives is to
help fellow sassels learn fromeach other, get a much needed

(02:43):
sanity check and build empathyalong the way.
No specific company or personis mentioned, so if a story
feels like an attack on you oron your company, we really
encourage you to reflect on whyyou have a guilty conscience.
And with that, let's get on tothe show.
I just want to take a secondand thank you sincerely for

(03:05):
joining the Disaster RecoveryPodcast.
I'm really excited to chat withyou today.
I saw the experience that youhad and I thought you were a
perfect person to reach out totalk with us about product
management.
So thanks again for being heretoday.

Speaker 2 (03:19):
Thank you for the opportunity.

Speaker 1 (03:20):
Well, look, we'll get right into it.
I am very curious.
I've got my own perspectives onproduct management and what
makes a good product manager,but I've never actually worked
in product management.
Closest I've gotten is productmarketing manager.
So the first question I want tostart out with to you is how do
you define product management?

Speaker 2 (03:42):
That's a great question.
Product management, in myopinion, is the privileged
opportunity to direct thelimited resources we have in
life in a way that adds value tothe world, by building
meaningful products, trulymeaningful value, and this is
true for software and hardwareand SPAN's industries.

Speaker 1 (04:04):
Okay, so the way that you look at product management
is almost like a life philosophyand not just an important
aspect of a SaaS business.

Speaker 2 (04:16):
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (04:19):
Where does that perspective come from?
Where did you learn that?

Speaker 2 (04:25):
I think it evolved over time, as I was fortunate
enough to be part oforganizations that took their
product portfolio seriously, andI was able to see the time and
investment required to deliversomething meaningful, something
of value, and there's noshortcuts to doing that right.

Speaker 1 (04:50):
Shortcuts are never truly worth it in the long run,
and that's one of the things wetalked about in a previous
episode the sacrificing of thelong term in favor of the short
term, and how that's a problem,particularly within SaaS
companies.
I'm curious did you learn thisfrom a mentor, or were you a

(05:13):
part of an organization and ateam that you saw just working
so well together that it led youto your understanding and
perspective that this is reallyabout finding ways of building
meaningful products that addvalue to the world?
So this is a very interestingphilosophy, one that I haven't

(05:34):
encountered with the productmanagers.
I've worked with, or eventalking with different product
marketing managers and theproduct managers that they work
with this perspective thatproduct management is really
about adding value to the worldby building meaningful products.
Was this something you learnedfrom a mentor or an organization

(05:56):
or a team that you were a partof?

Speaker 2 (05:59):
I think it's a mix of great mentors, being fortunate
to be on great teams, as well asbeing able to participate in
really great products andproduct launches, as well as
being able to see some productsthat maybe weren't as successful
as hoped, and to be able totake away some of those lessons.

Speaker 1 (06:23):
So this is something that you really developed
drawing on your own observationsand even moments of inspiration
, and that's what really led youto this understanding that it's
not about building a product.
It's about building somethingthat adds value to the world
Through a meaningful product.

Speaker 2 (06:40):
That's right.
A lot of folks will talk aboutproduct managers solving
problems or solving pain points,when really what I've seen is
in order to have an outsized ora disproportionate outcome.
It really is about finding away to add value, and if you

(07:04):
find that way to add value, therest tends to fall in place and
folks will find your product.

Speaker 1 (07:15):
Now, in that example that you shared, you know it's
more about solving.
It's not just solving problems,solving pain points, it's
adding value.
How are you defining thedifference between those?
Because when I hear that, itsounds to me like if I solve a
problem, I am adding value, butit sounds like there's more to

(07:35):
it from your perspective.

Speaker 2 (07:37):
Yeah, that's right.
Solving a problem does notrequire an elegant solution.
Solving a problem could requirea complex solution, it could
require something, or it couldbe solved with something fraught
with friction.
That might not be an enjoyablething to do.
I think the Department of MotorVehicles often gets a bad rap

(07:58):
in this way because you're ableto complete the tasks that are
required, but it isn't known tobe a wonderful experience.
It isn't the same as going toan Apple store and buying a
device.
There isn't that magic that youfeel in some experiences when

(08:18):
you're solving problems simply,versus when you are adding value
and delivering that wonderfulexperience in doing so.

Speaker 1 (08:26):
Got it.
This reminds me of the time.
I'm not very technicallyoriented or mechanically
oriented.
I'm a terrible handyman andit's something I aspire to be
better at and I work on, but I'mterrible at it.
I say that because my wife hada 2003, 2002 Nissan XTERRA and
this was like four years ago, sothis thing was already up there

(08:47):
in age and mileage and we camehome from vacation one day and
the vehicle would not start.
I know enough to check thebattery first, and so I did.
I took the battery out, I tookit to like Walmart or something.
They tested the battery and itwas dead Cool.
I got a new battery, I put itinto the vehicle and all of a

(09:09):
sudden, the brake lights came on.
Now I think I got.
My problem is the brake lightsare just on.
I took some time.
I dug into YouTube anddifferent Google searches and I
found that with duct tape and apenny I could fix the problem.
And I did, and I think that's agood example of what you're

(09:29):
talking about, which is I solvedthe problem.
It wasn't necessarily in asustainable way.
Sure, it got done, but there'sa lot of risk to the way that I
went about it Both risk of menot being able to undo some of
the things I had to like takeapart and put back together and
move around.

(09:50):
As well as what if there was abigger issue that I was just
treating the symptom on and itactually turned out to be
somewhat dangerous?
So that's what I think ofwhenever I hear your perspective
on solving a problem is notjust checking the box.
There's something more to it.
There's something that bringsmaybe a bit of surprise and

(10:10):
delight to it.

Speaker 2 (10:12):
That's right if we have a certain amount of
resources to allocate to fixinga problem.
In this case, you're fixingyour wife's Nissan SUV with a
little bit of training orperhaps a little bit of guidance
.
The question is, how could youhave solved that better?
And I think that's whereproduct managers, again, in my

(10:35):
opinion, should always be taskedwith trying to solve it better.
We're already making the effort.
Let's do it great.

Speaker 1 (10:45):
I like that.
It's about trying to solve itbetter.
I think that's great and I lovethat we started out on a very
specific definition of productmanagement.
Clearly you've got a lot ofexperience with that.
You've worked with differentteams, a lot of different
individuals throughout yournearly a decade of product
management experience.
Let's talk about what you seethat people get wrong about

(11:09):
product management.
What comes to mind with thatquestion?

Speaker 2 (11:16):
Often product management is understood.
We often get the question whatdo product managers do?
And it's a fair questionbecause it's a title that hasn't
been around for a long time.
But the skills and theresponsibilities have been
Identifying a market,identifying an opportunity,
identifying a way to solve thatby adding value.

(11:39):
Those are things that havealways taken place.
I think product management hasbeen the synthesis of those sets
of responsibilities into onerole, so that you have a
holistic picture of all thosepieces, versus it being
distributed amongst differentdepartments.

(12:01):
Product managers are not wizards.
Product managers don't writethe code.
Product managers do not oftencome up with the final design
specs for something they canbuild.
Product managers are there toprovide that direction, to
informally lead a group ofpeople to that desired outcome,

(12:23):
that desired value.
And I think, interestingly,product managers often get hired
for their brilliance andunderstanding the market and the
users and the opportunity.
And product managers oftenundergo grueling interviews and
I encourage your listeners tojust search for what product
management interviews are like.
And it's funny because evenafter going through all that,

(12:49):
product managers are oftenusurped by strong personalities
in the form of my way, or thehighway leaders, or very
strongly opinionated leadershipteams, often whom fancy
themselves as having a veryclear and valuable product
opinion.

(13:09):
I think what often happens isfolks get excited.
Folks want to have an impact inthe shape of the product, and
sometimes that may not manifestin a way that does add value or
that does solve the problem inthe best way for the people who

(13:30):
are looking for the value.

Speaker 1 (13:32):
That idea of being usurped by a my way or the
highway leader.
Are we talking like executiveteam?
Are we talking like a veryvocal sales team?
Because I've certainly seenthat, Yep.

Speaker 2 (13:51):
All of the above.
I think it depends on thecharacters you have, it depends
on the departments involved, itdepends on the decision being
made.
So it varies, but it's notuncommon to have folks with very
strong opinions.
And I think the other thingthat's important to highlight is

(14:12):
no one is folks are alwayscoming with their best
intentions.
So a my way or the highwayleader or someone who's coming
with an opinion and a decisionthat may be partially informed
isn't coming with that opinionbecause they're trying to do the
wrong thing.
They may have differentmotivations or different goals

(14:35):
that may not be apparent toeveryone else that's involved,
sure.

Speaker 1 (14:39):
Yeah, I think that makes sense and I think that
that's something you see, notjust in product management.
I've certainly worked inmarketing with strong leaders
who had a very specificperspective on the way a certain
campaign should go, orpositioning, or messaging, or
whatever the case may be andthere has to be some sort of

(15:01):
balance.
Leadership does need to providea direction.
How do you balance the idealrole of product management with
a very structured direction?

Speaker 2 (15:16):
Great question, and I think that goes to another
common misconception aboutproduct management, and that is
we're able to synthesize all ofthese inputs, because there are
differing levels of opinions andfolks have different levels of

(15:38):
decision-making power.
It's one of the most difficultthings to do in product
management is negotiate thatcompromise and outline that
clear path, given the myriad ofopinions that come into what the
product should be doing or howit should be heading, or what

(15:59):
the strategy should be tooutline the next three, five,
seven years.
So it's definitely part scienceand something that product
managers spend years trying toget good at.

Speaker 1 (16:18):
You know, you brought up this idea of people having
like different opinions, whichis anytime you work with any
person, you're gonna run into aconflict of opinions in some way
, shape or form.
I'm curious on the topic ofproduct management what is a
strongly held opinion, either inproduct management or about

(16:39):
product management, that youcompletely disagree with?

Speaker 2 (16:44):
Wow, I think there's a little to unpack there.
First, product management doesnot exist for the purpose of
rubber stamping other teams orleaders' opinions.
All too often those opinionsthat I was talking about and the
direction of the product don'tsee eye to eye, and I've seen

(17:06):
situations where that results inthe product team being changed
or pruned and often holding thebag for what's viewed as a lack
of innovation or other businessshortcomings.
And I think that leads to thenext level, which is you can't

(17:27):
fake product market fit.
So if we're in a state wherewe're rubber stamping requests,
customers in the market aresmart and they know better It'll
start to come across as thoughthe product and the company are
simply out to make money, whichis not a bad thing.

(17:51):
Companies exist to make money,but it has to start with adding
value and, as a result of addingvalue, being able to turn a
profit as a company.
If you add that value, thesuccess of the company will more
naturally come.
If you are sacrificing productmarket fit and you are simply

(18:15):
searching out profitability, itcan have a critical impact on
innovation and can turn you intoa mediocre at best kind of
company.
I think it's more important tohave a good understanding.
It's more important to empowerthe team through data research,

(18:35):
customer interviews, marketanalysis, competitor analysis
and let the product teamformulate an independent opinion
on what to build for whom andwhy, as well as articulating why
it's worth paying for and howit adds value, and then bring
that forward to the leadershipteam as an independent opinion,

(18:57):
versus starting with the otherend of it.

Speaker 1 (19:01):
I think this is interesting.
This sounds like an opinionthat you wouldn't necessarily
hear anyone say out loud.
You would never expect to heara prominent figure at a startup
or whomever to say hey, productmanagement team, your
responsibility is to rubberstamp these ideas.

(19:23):
I'm gonna come up with them andI want you to just say yes,
we've quote unquote done theresearch and the analysis and
what you say is accurate.
However, it sounds like whatthis is coming from is the
actual application of theopinion, and I think that's an
important thing to call out isno one is out there saying
product management does this.

(19:43):
However, in the actual day today, there are these experiences
in which it is dictated andit's either get on board back to
your comments about my way orthe highway.
It's either get on board or getout of the way, and the
perspective that you're bringingup is that it's really more of

(20:04):
a question of like the betterway to approach.
It is a question of how do youempower these individuals that
have been hired as productmanagers.
Who are the people responsiblefor understanding what is the
problem that needs to be solved?
Who has that problem?
Do they even care about solvingthat problem?
Would they be willing to payfor it, and so on and so forth.

(20:28):
I think that's an interestingpoint.

Speaker 2 (20:31):
That's right.
Often the term disagree andcommit is thrown around by
leadership who want the team toadopt their opinion.
And I was speaking to a productmanager yesterday at a large
B2B SaaS company and it's thesame thing there.

(20:52):
There's a group ofapproximately eight individuals
who make all of the decisionsfor the product.
Seven of those individualsaren't on the product team.
One of them happens to be thechief product officer but to
have that group decide what theroadmap is, where they're going
to go, it's a very interestingstructure.

(21:16):
So I think this is moreprevalent than most would like
to let on and In their defense,product managers often do their
damnedest to ensure theintegrity of the product and the
enablement of value forcustomers and users, and I think

(21:37):
that's where opinions cancontinue to diverge, because it
may not match the narrative of aleadership team and what they
have envisioned for the product,if anything at all.

Speaker 1 (21:51):
And, to be clear, you're not saying don't bring
opinions and perspectives to theproduct management team.
You're welcoming opinions,perspectives, ideas for
direction.
Really, what you're coming downto is trust.
Trust this group ofprofessionals who oftentimes

(22:12):
have gone through some sort oftraining or education for
specific product managementphilosophies, principles,
frameworks, etc.
Trust these individuals to dothe job that you hired them to
do.

Speaker 2 (22:25):
That's correct.
I think it does come down totrust and I think it is about
that empowerment and theaccountability.
I think that's the other thingthat product managers are open
to is having clear goals anddefinitions of success and
defining those at a companylevel, a product level, a

(22:49):
feature in capability level, andhaving the accountability when
things may not go according toplan or is hoped.
But you're right, that'sexactly what we're saying.
Product managers want to ingestas many data points as possible
, both qualitative andquantitative, before making a
decision about the best pathforward.

(23:11):
And, to use that cliche saying,if you want to go fast, go
alone.
If you want to go far, gotogether.
That's really what productmanagers are trying to achieve
and, while not everyone is goingto agree on all of the
decisions, it really is aboutunifying around that definition

(23:31):
of value and being open aboutwhat that definition is.

Speaker 1 (23:35):
That term, accountability, I think, is
incredibly important.
I think that's part of whatmakes great companies great and
poor companies well, poor isthat idea of accountability.
Are the right people being heldaccountable?
Are the right teams being heldaccountable?
And I don't mean that from abig brother perspective, I mean
it from a are we accomplishingthe goal that we need to

(23:58):
accomplish?
Are the team members, who arefocused on different elements of
that goal, contributing in theway that we need?
How can we measure that and howcan we justifiably change the
course as needed, whatever thatmay be?
So, when you're thinking aboutaccountability and product
management, what are someexamples of accountability?

(24:20):
Is it really just about didthis particular feature get
released on time?
Is it customer satisfaction?
What are your thoughts aboutproduct management and
accountability?

Speaker 2 (24:32):
There are entire books written on metrics, kpis,
okrs as it relates to productmanagement, so I'm not going to
try and regurgitate some ofthose points.
I think for me, theaccountability comes down to
ensuring there's clear goals forthe things that we invest in

(24:53):
and ship and that we're honestwhen we look at the performance
of those things, whether itrelates to market impact or
customer value or uptime oravailability, whatever you
choose as your set of markersand your measurement, defining

(25:14):
that beforehand, being honestabout whether or not you've
achieved that and, if not,iterating in a way that allows
you to get closer to it, ordeciding to take a different
path.
But I find all too often thatit's made up on the fly,
especially if we're not adheringto a roadmap.

Speaker 1 (25:36):
I like that idea of defining beforehand, whether
that's in the terms of howyou're going to measure a
successful feature launch orproduct launch, or even just in
general defining a course forthe product management team.
This is what we're going tohold ourselves accountable for
and we're going to speak to acompany all hands, et cetera.

(25:58):
Just something to make it clear.
This is our focus and ourpriority.
Now, in other philosophies it'svery much like well, make sure
you're not working just for thesole benefit of those numbers
and accountability metrics.
At the end of the day, you haveto do what you started out
describing, which is bringingvalue to the world through the

(26:19):
form of the product, and is thatactually happening?
But I think that's a great callout of let's make sure
everyone's on the same pagebeforehand.
Here's how we're going to gradeour performance so that we can
understand are we meeting themark?
If we need to improve, howshould we improve?
Based off where are those areasthat need to be improved?
And you can only do that whenyou bring some specificity with.

(26:40):
This is how we want to be, thisis what we want to live up to.
So I think that's a great callout.
Now it's clear from yourexperience and some of the
things that you're sharing thatyou've been through a lot and
that you've seen a lot inproduct management.
I'm wondering if you have astory of disaster that you'd
like to share with us.

Speaker 2 (27:02):
One does come to mind .
It was at a place that wasgoing through multiple
renaissance, multiple changes,and if we could take a step back
and think about that and removeourselves from that equation.
If the company and the team aregoing through multiple
renaissance and changes, imaginehow chaotic that is for

(27:24):
everyone involved, especiallyfor the customers for whom
you're trying to deliver value.
One thing I want to underscorethere is that kind of change
can't be done in a vacuum.
Those effects ripple outeverywhere In visible and

(27:45):
invisible ways.
Additionally, as that team wasgoing through those changes, I
noticed that there was a lackinginvestment in product and
quality due to some priordecisions that were made, and
there were a handful of us, ahandful of individuals, that saw

(28:08):
a critical turning point as anentire organization where we
decided enough was enough.
We decided to refocus and wedecided to build impactful and,
frankly, overdue features andcapabilities and, as a result of
that focus, we started torealize momentum and we started

(28:31):
to really reengage withcustomers and to start to add
value, and we were on the trackto reinvigorating and regaining
product market fit that perhapshad eluded us more than we had
wanted to admit.

Speaker 1 (28:51):
I think that's something you called out the
constant changing or the chaos,this idea of multiple
renaissance.
This is a very commonexperience in SaaS startups.
Startups are constantlyquote-unquote, pivoting, and
sometimes that is due to you'verealized something and you have
to change direction, andsometimes it's fear-based we're

(29:17):
not going to make it to the nextround of funding, for example,
we're not going to acquireenough customers or users within
a certain timeframe and we'regoing to run out of money and
we're not going to be a companyanyway.
We're not going to be a companyanymore.
So I think this is a verycommon scenario.
So you started out in thatexperience.
It sounds like a team cametogether and really found a

(29:39):
couple of core things to work onand to make sure to deliver.
You talked about this idea ofregaining product market fit,
which, to me, clues me in thatthere maybe was some faltering
that happened there, somedeviation from that initial
product fit or that market fit.
I'm curious in this chaoticexperience, what was your

(30:03):
day-to-day like?

Speaker 2 (30:04):
Yeah, In the chaotic experience, the day-to-day was
mostly fired, fighting andmostly responding to the next
loudest or the next mostimportant request, while also
shielding individualcontributors in the organization
as much as possible andproviding consistency and a

(30:26):
vision and a direction for thosefolks.
So managing that change throughleadership is something that is
definitely stressful and I wouldgive it to any of the leaders
that I worked with over thatperiod of time doing the best
they could to navigate thatchange and provide that

(30:49):
consistency on a daily basis asbest they could.
But in the end, as I mentioned,change doesn't happen in a
vacuum and folks will feel thatuncertainty.
Once we were able to focus if Ican shift gears once we were

(31:10):
able to focus, we startedgetting into a regular rhythm
and we were able to have theengineering and design and
product and marketing teams andother teams working with us and

(31:30):
collaborating and we were ableto get multiple projects and
multiple features andcapabilities along the varying
stages of the softwaredevelopment lifecycle.
We were interviewing customers,we were performing ongoing
validation of both the directionand the focus of what we were
working on, and thatcollaboration I think was really

(31:52):
key to, as we talked aboutearlier, ensuring that
everyone's opinions weresurfaced and heard to
continually gut checking if wewere on the path, adding value
or not, so that when we did shipthe work it was meaningful work

(32:14):
, there was a spirit of we canmake it in the air and there was
that spirit of excitement again, that energy.
So it was really a wonderfulchange, I think, to be able to
refocus when we did and we wereable to see some benefits.
That's great.

Speaker 1 (32:32):
It sounds like.
I'm curious about what you'regoing to say next, because at
this point in time it soundslike you had a pretty good thing
going.
Like you said, you started outthere was a little bit of chaos
and confusion, teamwork together, lots of collaboration, I'm
sure, with that, lots ofconversations coming together
and then really getting on theright track, but that doesn't

(32:56):
sound like a disaster at all.

Speaker 2 (33:00):
Well, there's more to the story.
While we were energetic andreinvigorated, I think one of
the missing pieces was arepeatable go-to-market motion,
and for those who have been inB2B SaaS, many can attest to how
difficult it may be to land andexpand accounts, and I think

(33:24):
the board probably wanted change.
They wanted someone to achievethat growth.
That alluded the company forthe prior years, where they saw
competitors and other SaaScompanies grow and they wanted
to see them grow at a muchfaster rate.
Surely they wanted to hiresomeone who could establish that

(33:46):
repeatable go-to-market motion,who had a history or a track
record of growing a company,growing a team and building a
wonderful product.
I think, unfortunately, theleadership that was hired didn't
have the level of familiaritywith the market or even the type

(34:07):
of product that we had toreally be able to come in and
hit the ground running.
I think, to be fair, there area lot of those who are part of
this journey that may believethat the new leadership team was
not as informed when theyaccepted the job.
There was, and may continue tobe, a large amount of tech debt

(34:37):
and they may not have known thatthe go-to-market team was not
firing as consistently as onemight hope so.
Again, going back to assumingpositive intent and assuming
that folks were trying to do theright thing.
Everyone who joined, I think,was trying to come in and do

(35:01):
what they knew how to do best.
I think, with that lack offamiliarity in the market, the
customers and the product andcompetitors in the space, it was
just maybe not getting thetraction that we had hoped.

Speaker 1 (35:16):
I think that's a great thing that you called out,
which is things can be goingright with the product, but on
the market side, thego-to-market side, there could
still be an issue.
Ideally, you would think that,well, if we build the right
product, the right people aregoing to find it and use it kind
of field of dream style, kevinCostner.

(35:39):
If you build it, they will come, type thing.
And that's not the case.
As ideal as that would be, thatidea of product, market fit
it's product and market fit theproducts could fit the needs,
wants, desires, problems, painpoints, et cetera, but the
market might not be in aposition to buy a product like

(36:03):
that.
Now, people are always going toargue.
Well, if you demonstrate thevalue, if you prove the value,
yes, you can find compellingways to talk about the product
and show people that it canbring them value.
But in you know, you thinkabout current times right now
where, like especially, techstartups, saas startups, where

(36:24):
layoffs are happening, you knowpeople's positions are being
eliminated, there's a focus onreducing headcount.
That's all happening in themarket and that's separate from
the product, right?
So I think what I love aboutwhat you called out is this idea
that you know, it's not justthe product.
There are elements of themarket, some of which are in

(36:44):
your team's control, likedeveloping the right
go-to-market strategy.
Some of it is completelyoutside of the control and I
think that comes up a lot thisidea of timing and luck being a
critical factor to productmarket fit.
Regardless, focusing on thingsthat can be controlled, there
was a decision made.
You know we need to bring inpeople who are able to build

(37:08):
what we're looking to build, andthat's where we're at in the
story.
I think that makes sense and Ican certainly appreciate your
focus on assuming positiveintent.
Yeah, sounds like from what yousaid.
Not all information was sharedup front, which ultimately makes
it more difficult to be aleader when you're working with
limited or misinformation.

Speaker 2 (37:29):
Yeah, I think those are great points and one thing
that comes to mind is somethingI heard in another podcast,
which speaks to market andtiming and the cost for
customers and the importance ofhow much they may want to do
something to actually implementsoftware and whether or not they

(37:53):
view your product as medicine,a vitamin or candy.
Is it essential, is it ideal oris this superfluous?
And I didn't come up with thatframework.
I had heard it in anotherpodcast.
But I think, as you mentioned,it can solve the problems, it

(38:14):
can add the value and it can beon a path to delivering more
value, but if the other pieces,like you said, are not there, it
really can be challenging.

Speaker 1 (38:26):
As a side note, this is why product marketing and
product management work soclosely together.
One focus in specializing onthe market and one focus in
specializing on the product.
The two together quite thepowerhouse.
In fact, some companies arecombining the role.
Apple, for example.
Their product marketingmanagers are product managers

(38:47):
who do the product marketing,and from what I understand I
think I saw an article aboutthis Airbnb is taking a similar
approach, where the productmarketing managers and the
product managers are becomingjust one role, because it's
expected that if you're going tobe truly successful in this
position, you have to have thesetwo distinct perspectives and

(39:09):
disciplines coming together,working together, and so they're
trying to create anall-powerful synthesizer of
information.

Speaker 2 (39:17):
Apple is doing something right, so there has to
be something said for whatthey're trying to do.

Speaker 1 (39:21):
Absolutely so there's been a change.
What happened next?

Speaker 2 (39:25):
I think what happened next was interesting and not
all too uncommon.
I think it's not uncommon to seea leadership team start to turn
over when different leaders arebrought in, whether that's on
their own accord or whetherthat's for other reasons, but
the leadership team as a wholestarted to turn over and new

(39:50):
individuals, both at theleadership and individual level,
were brought in that were partof the circle of the individuals
that had come before them.
Interestingly enough, they werethe folks who joined later had
the privilege and theopportunity to judge those who

(40:12):
came before them and to form theopinion that previous teams
didn't know what they were doing.
But we do and we know best.
And I think, as a result ofhaving individuals that formed
that opinion, as well as havinga new leadership team that
doesn't have history with theexisting members of who's left,

(40:36):
all of a sudden you have anenvironment where individuals
may no longer feel safe talkingabout anything for fear that it
gets reported till leadership,and suddenly you're impacted for
not adhering to party policies,and I think what ultimately
happened is the culture of thecompany was obliterated and the

(41:00):
company and the team entered astate of cultural flux.

Speaker 1 (41:06):
This is a tough scenario because this idea of
maybe the previous peopleworking there didn't know how to
make it work and to some degreethat idea is reinforced by the

(41:27):
fact that a new team of leadersneeded to come in.
And so to some degree, I cansee where this perspective of
out with the old, in with thenew, because the old wasn't
working, and then the impact ithad on the culture.
I imagine what you're referringto is the people who were still

(41:50):
there that were part of thequote unquote old regime.
They would maybe pick up on thefact that they were part of
this, and so maybe the attitudeis that they don't know what
they're doing and, as a result,they're less proactive in
bringing up ideas or sharingfeedback, maybe a little bit

(42:12):
more cautious, because they'veessentially been put on notice
that look, you didn't know whatyou were doing, we do, so get in
line.

Speaker 2 (42:22):
That's correct.
And going back to something wetalked about previously, there's
no shortcut to building trustand if you come in with an
opinion that individuals who arepart of the team don't know
what they're doing or didn'tknow what they were doing, and
that the incoming regime knowsbetter, you can't build trust in

(42:46):
an environment like that.
Regardless of how many timesthere are informal events to try
and build trust, you can't sayone thing and exhibit another.
It's incongruent and I thinkthat's ultimately what
contributed to the companyculture ending in the state of

(43:08):
disarray and flux that it endedin.

Speaker 1 (43:13):
I can imagine that that makes an impact to culture.
What happened as a result ofthat?

Speaker 2 (43:18):
With the company culture and the disarray that it
was in the product team and theproduct are not insulated from
that we started to feel thatsame level of uncertainty, and
other teams rightfully sostarted feeling that level of
uncertainty.

(43:38):
Not only was the companyculture in flux, but the
opinions of leadership on whatthe product should be or what
the product should focus on wasalso being redefined by this new
set of leaders and individualsthat joined the company.
That manifested in our customerfacing teams soliciting lists

(44:04):
of enhancement requests upwardsof 1500 for just a couple of
customers.
And customers were told we wantyou to shape our roadmap, only
to have the roadmap dictated andchanged weekly by the executive
team in a way that wouldcontinue to satisfy all of the

(44:25):
obligations that we had verballycommitted to.
It was a red flag for us on theproduct team when we started
having different roadmaps fordifferent customers.
That is not a sign of having aunified understanding of the
product or having anunderstanding of the product
market fit or an understandingof what adds value in a way that

(44:49):
will help the company.
As I mentioned, the leadershipteam, I think, in trying to
display value to customers intheir own way, began promising
those feature, enhancements andother deliverables, and this was
, as I mentioned, at the expenseof the roadmap and, as a result

(45:10):
, the product and the qualityonce again began to languish,
just as it had in the priorchanges and renaissance the
company had endured, and this isnothing to say of the drastic
off-shoring and cost-cuttingefforts that impacted our
ability to execute on any of thepromises.

(45:33):
But all of that for those whoare familiar with B2B SaaS
companies, all of that happensbehind the scenes.
That's all dirty laundry,family internal stuff that
doesn't get discussed, but oftenthat is what adds an incredible
amount of stress to the system.

(45:54):
That impacts not just theproduct but also all of the
other teams.

Speaker 1 (46:02):
That's a tough scenario to start out with, like
you talked about, because therewas this beginnings of disarray
that led to people trying to dothe best they could with what
they were working with, but thatlack of cohesion, that lack of
being united, led to maybe somestepping on toes for example,
amassing list of customerrequests, which it sounded a bit

(46:26):
like with the way that you'rereferring to it, that it became
customer demands almost thisidea of, in order to acquiesce
customers, we're going to go tothem and tell them that they're
shaping their roadmap, which inprinciple, sounds like a pretty
good idea to say to a customerwe want you to help shape our

(46:48):
roadmap.
But that goes against some ofthe information you shared
earlier, where this needs to betreated as a perspective, as a
data point that is thensynthesized along with a slew of
many other different datapoints and considerations, and I
think that that's an importantcall out.
There's nothing wrong to say wewant our customers to shape the

(47:10):
roadmap, but there is somethingwrong with we want our roadmap
to be customer defined, andthat's what I'm picking up with
the scenario that you're in orthat you were describing right
now.

Speaker 2 (47:21):
Yeah, that's absolutely correct, and because
of that direction, sufferedVision mission goals.
All of that changed daily asvarious teams, including the
leadership team, had to saywhatever they thought customers,
employees, wanted to hear.
Because, like, don't forget toinclude AI, even if we don't do

(47:42):
it, things that we wanted toportray and it was almost a fake
it till you make it.
Or, if we hold out long enough,we'll be able to deliver enough
of this so that we will nothave been making it up.
But that's a very difficultplace to be in and I think it

(48:05):
culminated.
All of this culminated inblowing up our product market
fit.
The product in any market fitwas abandoned and the company
not just the product team, butthe company had ultimately
become ticket takers in hope ofan outcome, in hope of something

(48:28):
in the future worthwhile.
Because when you say yes toeveryone, you really destroy the
momentum and the focus and theproduct integrity and in the end
, no one is really getting whatthey want from a customer
perspective, from a valueperspective, even from an
employee perspective, and Ithink what really hurt is this

(48:49):
had an impact on people doingreal work, and I'm not just
talking about the generic termcustomers.
When we say customers.
There are individuals trying touse the software to complete
tasks that they've been assigned.
In the end, nearly all thecustomers could smell the
desperation in the air and theyleveraged that to request the

(49:13):
things we asked them to tell usand request, and they grew
increasingly frustrated with ourinability to deliver on those
promises and in the end, it washard to face myself as well as
others.
The journey that I just talkedabout and the experience that I
just outlined really highlightedsome irreconcilable differences

(49:37):
in values between myself andwhat the team ultimately became.
The culture felt toxic and ifyou're working in a place where
you don't feel safe raising aconcern, raising your voice,
having a dissenting opinionthat's not a place most people

(49:57):
want to work.
Yes, I could have phoned it in,but that's not who I am Having,
and then seeminglyintentionally abandoning product
market fit.
I realized it was my time toleave.
You can't fight City Hall andyou can't tell the board.
They're wrong and in the end,it was the board and the

(50:18):
leadership team and others whodecided to change.
It was necessary, again, forthe right reasons.
I think how those thingstranspired may not have been
what we had originally intended.

Speaker 1 (50:33):
So this chaos, this confusion that ultimately grew
out of this lack of a unitedfront ultimately impacted the
actual product market fit of thecompany, and I like how you
called out this idea ofcustomers and really getting
deeper.
It's easy to think of thegeneric idea of a customer, but

(50:58):
it's different to think of realpeople, people like yourself,
who are using software becausethey have a job to do, that they
get paid for, that they use tothen help feed their family and
provide for their loved ones.
Really, breaking it down tothese real people who use our
software had tasks that they hadto do for their work.

(51:20):
They needed to use our softwareto do that.
We wanted to provide a great andvaluable experience, but with
the uniqueness of how differentcompanies operate and different
roles within those companiesoperate, that leads to a lot of
conflicting demands for specificfeatures and capabilities, and

(51:41):
trying to take intoconsideration all of that coming
together and then delivering onall of it.
There's no way anyone can besuccessful in that type of
conversation.
That's just too much.
That's too much when you thinkof the scale that software tends
to have, depending on the typeof software, of course and for
you to come to this realizationthat it was difficult to

(52:05):
essentially live with yourself.
You seem like someone who caresa lot about integrity.
It sounds like your integritywas raising some red flags to
you.

Speaker 2 (52:20):
That's correct.
It felt almost as though I wasthat proverbial frog in water.
That was cool at first, thatit's starting to get hot and I
came to a point where I realizedthe water is too hot.
But it's amazing how longsomeone will put up with

(52:43):
something in the hopes of thingsgetting better or in the hopes
that we're on the right track.
But when you think about thefirst principles that lead you
to your career or your companythat you work for, or the things
you work on and what you try todo to add value in the world,

(53:05):
you have to be honest withyourself and understand where
you're at and take theappropriate actions.
You owe it to yourself.

Speaker 1 (53:16):
You called out something that another guest
called out, that idea of hope.
She actually called it hopeium,that addictive holding out hope
.
I hope it's going to get better.
I see the potential.
I certainly experienced thismyself.
I found myself in a situationwhere I was really happy with a
lot of things that I was doing,but there was something not

(53:38):
really adding up.
But I always had hope.
I always hoped this year is theyear or this is the change that
we're making and this is what'sgoing to do it.
I always found a reason to hope, but really what I was doing
was rationalizing the situationthat I was in because I was
scared.
I was scared to make a decision.
It sounds like you reached thatsame point too.

Speaker 2 (54:00):
That's right.
It's rationalization.
That variable summarized.

Speaker 1 (54:06):
So you left.

Speaker 2 (54:08):
Is that right?
That's correct.
I stayed long enough to ensurethat there was continuity for
the team that remained.

Speaker 1 (54:16):
Integrity.

Speaker 2 (54:17):
One of the things that was very important to me is
ensuring that, just because Imay not have been a fit or I may
not have believed in what thedirection was, it was my
responsibility to ensure thatthe team was set up as best
possible to be successful.

(54:37):
I think no matter if you're inproduct or another team
marketing, sales, customersuccess, support whatever it may
be you owe it to the team thatyou work with, as well as the
broader company, to try andleave on as best as terms as
possible.

(54:58):
But I'd say since that day I'vereally been able to achieve
some peace of mind and mypersonal sense of integrity and
honesty has come back.
I think taking the step toleave is hard financially,
emotionally, the uncertainty Notsure when folks will listen to

(55:21):
this podcast, but the tech worldis undergoing a lot of change
right now, with layoffs andredefinition of roles and all
sorts of things, so leaving isvery difficult.
And then I think the other thingthat we touched on earlier
briefly is related to the factthat there's a continued concern

(55:44):
I have for retaliation Because,although I know many others
experience similar things,frankly it's taboo in tech to
talk about this kind of stuff,even talking about this
situation out loud makes methink there's an opportunity for
getting blacklisted.
In tech, and I think manyothers feel this way, we're not

(56:09):
supposed to portray anythingother than things are great,
because that could bedetrimental to the health of the
company, the brand, whateverthat may be.

Speaker 1 (56:22):
And it's a shame that that is the feeling, because at
the end of the day and you lookat one of the go-to books for
developing a company is good togreat.
Why?
I can't remember the name ofthe subtitle, but it's why
companies succeed whereas othercompanies don't, and the answer

(56:46):
to that is people.
It's always people, and sothere's power there in putting
your people first.
At least, that's what I believe.
So it's a shame that theprofessionals in this industry
who are responsible for makingthese products, that are making
these companies the money thatthey need to operate and to
continue to grow and to expand,have a concern.

(57:08):
Have a concern because nowtheir livelihood could be
affected if they share what theyhonestly went through.
And it's one of the things thatthe Disaster Recovery Podcast
stands for is accountability,and the only way that we can
promote a culture ofaccountability is by making sure
people like yourself, myself,others in similar situations we

(57:31):
refer to them as sassholes hereon the Disaster Recovery Podcast
making sure that they know thatthey're not alone in these
experiences that they've gonethrough, so that when they see a
situation happening and itsounds familiar, they can do
something about it.
They can take a hard-learnlesson that one of our guests
has shared and apply that totheir own scenario and maybe

(57:53):
affect the outcome.
Maybe not, but at the end ofthe day, at least there is peace
of mind in knowing that you arenot alone in this experience
that you went through.
I've talked to a lot of peoplewho have expressed similar
concerns that you have.
I can't share this because I'mafraid of retaliation.
You know you go on Glassdoor.
You see a lot of negativereviews for a company.

(58:15):
Even then people are hesitantto actually post that on
Glassdoor because you never knowwhat sort of data is being
collected and shared, with whom,at what cost, et cetera.
So there's very much a fear ofif I say something I will then
bear consequences, which isunfortunate because it's not

(58:35):
like they're, in this case,spreading libel.
They're spreading theirexperience, which is two totally
different things.

Speaker 2 (58:42):
That's right.
This is my opinion and myexperience, and I know
individuals at companies I'veleft in the past that are having
a different experience, and I'mgenuinely loving that they're
having a different experience.
That's what I would want themto have.

Speaker 1 (59:06):
So, when you think about that entire experience,
what were your top takeaways?
What were the top lessons thatyou learned?

Speaker 2 (59:16):
There's definitely a handful of them Thinking back to
that primary message of productmarket fit.
If you're able to find productmarket fit, you'll know it.
Hold on to it with both handsand don't let go.
Defend it as best you can.
The rest will fall into place alot easier.

(59:40):
So I think that's the firstthing that comes to mind.
I think the second thing andthis was imparted on me prior
mentor and that is to buildyourself some freedom, to build
yourself a ripcord and to not beafraid to use it.
You build it to use it, andwhat I mean by that is to build

(01:00:06):
yourself the freedom so that youaren't afraid to leave a
culture that you don't agreewith or people that may be
negatively impacting you incertain ways.
Gaslighting is a real thing.
Office politics it's a realthing.
Nepotism it's a real thing.

(01:00:26):
If you don't have theflexibility or that ripcord to
pull, you will feel trapped andit can manifest in really
unfortunate ways.
So I think that's the secondthing.
I think the third thing thatcomes to mind is to recognize

(01:00:46):
that if a new leader orleadership team is brought in,
the writing is on the wall.
They're there to enact changeand in those situations be quick
to act and decide if you shouldexit or stay and think through
the reasons why.
Don't fall into the trap thatI've fallen into and rationalize

(01:01:09):
.
Take an honest assessment ofyour situation, your personal
situation, and act.
I think the next thing thatcomes to mind is you need to
know when missing businessmomentum is customer management,
support, leadership, sales,marketing, the industry, the

(01:01:30):
product timing or something else.
You should do your best to tryand interpret the signals that
you see, to determine whysomething may not be working
correctly, and you owe it toyourself and to your colleagues
to have the courage to callthings what they are, not in a
gossipy way, in a public way, sothat everyone can benefit.

(01:01:54):
The trade-off there isrecognizing the culture you're
in and doing so if you feel safebecause of the potential
negative impacts and retaliation.
I think the next thing is whenyou're working with people,
beware of people who aim toplease at the cost of others.

(01:02:16):
They are even quicker tosacrifice you when things don't
go according to plan.
I think the next one would bebeware of those who have to say
they are something, for bysaying they are something,
they're demonstrating that theyare the opposite, and if I have

(01:02:41):
to advertise that I'm aproficient product manager, and
if I have to advertise andconvince others that I have a
set of traits or capabilities,or to trust me, you're often
demonstrating the exact opposite.
And then I think the last onemay seem a little cliche but

(01:03:05):
warrants restating, and that isyou really need to trust your
gut and listen to yourself.
You're not crazy.
The things that you experienceare real.
They may be your ownexperiences, but that doesn't
make them any less valid.
Having an experience doesn'tmean that you can turn into a

(01:03:27):
jerk or that you can sabotagethings or gossip or do things
that are detrimental to thesuccess of the team.
Having an experience means thatyou need to recognize it for
what it is, understand what itmeans to you, and to recognize
that having that experiencemeans that you're responsible

(01:03:50):
for taking an action based onthat experience.
So trust your gut, listen toyourself.

Speaker 1 (01:03:57):
It sounds like this was quite the learning
experience for you.
Just to recap some of thethings you shared, which seem to
fall into categories that areapplicable both to product
managers as well as just generalemployees at an organization
that idea of your company, ifyour startup has found product
market fit, hold on to it.

(01:04:19):
Understand why.
What really made it resonatewith this particular market?
Who are they?
What about the product do theylike?
Why this product over otherproducts?
Dig into it, understand it andthen build a scope around it so
that you can stay focused.
I love that you called out thisidea of having I think you

(01:04:42):
called it a ripcord being ableto pull the shoot right, the
ripcord for the parachute, beable to get out, set yourself up
in such a way and this is notsomething everyone is able to do
, I understand that.
But if you can build yournetwork, build your network so
that you can find out aboutopportunities that can come up

(01:05:05):
that you could be a potentialfit for, or save some money, if
you're able to, so that you havea bit of a cushion, so that the
threat of you losing your jobis lessened to some degree, so
that you have that peace of mindso that you can make that tough
decision and get out.
Otherwise, you risk continuallyrationalizing why you should

(01:05:29):
stay, and you can rationalizethrough that hopeium.
Sometimes you don't even seethat the water is actually
starting to boil around you.
I think that was a verypractical call out that you made
that when there's newleadership, there's going to be
change.
Now there's no clear way tounderstand what exact change
there's going to be, but youneed to know that there's going

(01:05:52):
to be change and that changecould impact you and you have to
make a decision.
Do you want to be a part ofthis change or not?
And it's okay if the answer isyes to either one of those
questions.
That's totally okay.
Just be an active participantin that conversation.
And you know one of the otherthings that you called out that
really kind of stood out to me.

(01:06:14):
It's just that idea of trustingyourself you know when
something's not right or notright to you and giving yourself
that credit so that you canmake the decisions that are
going to be best for you.
Because, rest assured, thecompany is making the decisions
that's best for it.
So, at the end of the day, youdo have to make sure that you

(01:06:36):
are making the decisions thatare best for you as the
individual.
So I think those were somegreat lessons.
I know I didn't hit all of them, but those are some of the ones
that really stood out to me.
I appreciate you sharing them.

Speaker 2 (01:06:46):
Yeah, thanks for the opportunity to summarize my
lessons and my experience.

Speaker 1 (01:06:51):
Well, look, I really appreciate you joining, sharing
your perspective on productmanagement, your philosophy.
I really enjoyed theconversation about what people
think about product managementand how they typically get that
wrong within the world of SAS.
The story certainly resonateswith me.
This is something with thecommunity of people who are

(01:07:14):
addicted to startups that I'vebeen able to connect with.
It is a very common scenario todescribe the chaos, the
firefighting, the constantpivoting, and so I think it's
very interesting to hear a storyabout what happens when people
try to bring order to the chaosand the impact of those
decisions.
And ultimately, like wehighlighted in your story, it's

(01:07:39):
not always sunshine and rainbows.
Sometimes there's some reallytough times and tough
experiences.
So I really appreciate yourvulnerability and your
candidness in sharing all of it.

Speaker 2 (01:07:49):
Happy to share it in the hopes that it helps someone
else.

Speaker 1 (01:07:52):
But with that, I appreciate your time.
I hope you enjoyed this episodeas much as I did, and I had a
lot of takeaways from thisconversation with our guests.
I mean, what a greatperspective that he shared on
the definition of productmanagement, and I'm quoting him
now.
I went back and listened to theepisode so I could get this
just right.
Product management is aboutdirecting the limited resources

(01:08:14):
we have in life in a way thatadds value to the world by
building meaningful products.
Talk about a mission, talkabout something more important
than the individual Directinglimited resources that's a top
topic right now A way that addsvalue to the world.
I think that that's such animportant thing to keep in mind

(01:08:37):
with anything that you are doingis the impact it can have, not
just within your sphere ofinfluence, but in the greater
scheme of things.
I'm also really glad we talkedabout this idea of solving
problems and pain points versusbringing true value to customers
.
This is a perspective I hadn'tconsidered before, and it's kind

(01:08:58):
of like that quote that'sattributed to Henry Ford about
how, if he asked what peoplewanted, it would have been a
faster horse, but instead hebuilt the car right.
It's that idea of reallyunderstanding what needs to be
solved not necessarily the waypeople think it should be solved

(01:09:21):
at that time and then goes backto some of the things that our
guest was sharing about trustingspecific professionals who have
undergone such training andcertification programs, who
focus on delivering just thatUnderstanding what could be the
ideal solution to a situation.

(01:09:41):
I also love that we talked aboutthe idea of product market fit
being fleeting, because ittotally is.
It's not static, it's everchanging, and that's one of the
things I love about productmarketing.
I think when product marketingis done well, it's really about
shepherding the herd towardproduct market fit, the herd
being the company and, in somecases, the customers and the

(01:10:04):
market as well.
Now, how many of you couldrelate to that slow burn story
shared by our guest, that ideaof sticking around hoping it
will get better because you cansee the potential but not
realizing that you're kind oflike the frog in the pot of
water that slowly begins to boiland by the time you realize
your mistake AKA not getting outyou get burned.

(01:10:28):
I think the story alsocrystallized this idea in
finding product market fit, thatyou can't be everything to
everyone and without a clearunderstanding of what value your
company brings for whom, how,why, why that matters.
Without that, you could findyourself deceiving customers and

(01:10:51):
maybe even yourself.
And when we're talking aboutcustomers, we're not talking
about this abstract idea of acustomer.
We're talking about real peoplewho rely on the software your
company sells in order to dotheir job.
That's a big responsibility.
You can't ever overlook that,because what if that was you?
Now, before you go, take asecond and subscribe to the show

(01:11:14):
.
Let us know how much thesestories resonate with you, by
leaving us a rating and a reviewin Apple Podcast or Spotify or
really any podcast player ofyour choice.
Also, be sure to share theselessons with a co-worker or even
a boss who is going through itwith you.
Who knows, maybe your story ofdisaster could be next.