the ups & downs in sales, business development, & executive leadership

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome to the Disaster Recovery Podcast.
I'm your host, josh Santow, andthis is the show where we
reveal the untold horror storiesand hard-learn lessons of
software as a service startuplife as told by the sassholes
who lived through it.
Their stories about themanagers, departments and
companies they worked for willleave you thinking what a
disaster.
Our mission is to help youbring order and sanity to the

(00:30):
chaos you will undoubtedlyencounter in your own adventures
in sass.
There's stories andconversations with our guests
who have been there and donethat in all aspects of sass from
sales, marketing, product andmore you'll get the tools and
insights you need to recoverfrom disaster.
Today on the show we're diggingdeep into the realities and

(00:55):
hard work of good sales andbusiness development.
We're going to talk about howit's not as easy as you or as
marketing or account executivesor even chief executives might
think.
We're going to get into why bizdevs should be viewed as a
luxury by the sales organizationand we're going to talk about
what happens when the new CRO isan ASS.

(01:18):
Our guest has nearly two decadesof experience in sales and
business development and itstarted way back in his
childhood, at summer camp, wherearts and crafts turned into
door-to-door selling.
He learned value selling firsthand at blockbuster of all
places, where they actuallycreated a role specifically for
him due to his ability to sellrewards and memberships in the

(01:40):
stores.
Now we all know that thatdidn't help blockbuster change
its course.
Ultimately it shut down, but hedid what he could.
His time at Dell is where hereally honed his craft.
It enabled him to developprocesses and frameworks, to
capitalize on his gift of gab,and it taught him to shut up and

(02:03):
listen from time to time.
Since that early adventure intosales, he's led the business
development teams at severalmajor startups, helping multiple
companies scale past the $10million revenue mark, which is a
critical milestone for startupcompanies.
I'm excited to share his ideas,his perspectives and his
stories.
But before we get into theepisode, a quick disclaimer.

(02:26):
The stories shared on theDisaster Recovery Podcast are
based on anonymous, individualexperiences at real companies.
The goal in sharing thesestories and these perspectives
is to help fellow sassholes likeyourself learn from each other,
get a much needed sanity checkand build empathy along the way.
No specific company or personis mentioned at all.

(02:49):
If a story feels like an attackon you or your company, well we
encourage you to reflect on whyyou have a guilty conscience
With that.
On to the show Now.
You've got a ton of experiencenot just selling but connecting
and talking with people, andit's something that I think

(03:09):
you're very good at.
You're very naturally gifted atthe ability to not just
communicate but to, I would say,adapt some of the things that
you're saying to the person thatyou're talking to.
I think you have that verynaturally.
So I'm really excited to talkwith you about your perspective
in the discipline of businessdevelopment, sales development

(03:30):
and sales, because I do thinkthat you're one of the rare
people in which this reallycomes together naturally for and
I'm excited to hear about it-Well, great, thank you, I'm
excited to talk about it.
I don't know if you do thatabout yourself.

Speaker 2 (03:46):
I appreciate the sentiment, but I think it I mean
it probably just comes from.
I love talking to people ingeneral and so just hearing what
they're all about and then justhonestly having conversations,
and then I was like, oh well,maybe I could sell them
something too.

Speaker 1 (04:07):
You're also a storyteller as well, which is
something that, of course, comesvery much into play in sales.

Speaker 2 (04:14):
Yeah, I mean I have a , I guess, a very different
background than maybe most othersalespeople their interests in
the arts and how to tell a storyand then how to communicate
that to people and where thepoints to hit on and what is

(04:37):
meaningful to the audience or,in this case, in regards to
sales, I was like what ismeaningful and what's the value
proposition to someone that'sactually going to give a crap
about it?

Speaker 1 (04:48):
That makes a ton of sense and it's certainly in line
with how I view selling and mytime working in solutions
consulting, dabbling a littlebit in some activities that an
account executive should take on, but as a solutions consultant
who had no boundaries.
I tended to do a lot more thanI should have, so put it very

(05:09):
much resonates with me.

Speaker 2 (05:10):
Yeah, that always comes with the tier.
I mean, it's like the old groupproject thing back in high
school.
It's like there's always a oneor maybe a few people who just
didn't really pull their way andyou're like I did everything.
That's one thing that maybepeople should tell kids when

(05:31):
they're getting out of highschool that shit doesn't stop.
It does not stop.
I mean, where do you go?

Speaker 1 (05:36):
It does not stop.
No, it is a tried and trueprinciple of working with other
people, period.

Speaker 2 (05:43):
It's just who knew that people didn't really want
to work yeah.

Speaker 1 (05:48):
Yeah, certainly, not me, yeah right, certainly.

Speaker 2 (05:50):
I had no idea.

Speaker 1 (05:52):
Well, you've got such a great career across sales and
business development.
I would love to dig into thatwith you a little bit.
I'd love to hear from you howdo you personally define
business development?

Speaker 2 (06:08):
The business development was.
I didn't really know about ituntil I would say, halfway
through my career because Ithought a lot of the actions or
the activities that now I knowthat an SDR or BDR would
normally do was just natural fora salesperson to do.
But then to have that extensionof a sales or is like oh wow,

(06:30):
this is an interesting idea forme who's always done these
things just naturally, likebeing basically the tip of the
spear for a salesperson, or thesales cycle and the sales
journey and then the customerjourney.
So you're the first impressionfor the organization.

(06:50):
So that's kind of a heavy liftor a lot of weight on the
person's shoulders.
As soon as you call someone orthe first time you meet someone
you're trying to sell them andsound like a dumbo.
Then that leaves a certaintaste in someone's mouth All
through, like do I really wantto work with that company if

(07:13):
this guy or this person is notconveying the message very well
or I have no idea still whatthey do?
So it's a pretty importantthing.
But the whole point isobviously just to find potential
customers and then to cast themon to someone who's going to be
closing them, and then the partof it is that it teaches you

(07:40):
one what your limits are inregards to sales, because, yeah,
you're the first person, thefirst impression for the
organization, but you're alsothe first person that gets told
no.
That teaches you a lot ofthings about yourself and how to
build a pretty thick skin.
If you can't take that overtime, then you really have to

(08:07):
come to terms with yourself.
Is sales something that Ireally want to do?
This is, I would say, the SDRsor BDRs, normally the junior
salesperson getting into,hopefully into their sales
career, but I don't thinkanyone's above it.
I remember first time that overtime working for a company Cole

(08:31):
calling somewhere, talking tosomebody, and I had a call that
was.
I ended up selling them and atthe end of it they were saying
oh wow, this is the bestexperience I've ever had with a
salesperson before.
I'm always going to buy thisproduct and stick with this
company and you're the bestsalesperson I've ever talked to.
All these accolades, all thesereally nice things, no reason

(08:54):
why this person had to say itWell, thank you.
Next call, right after that,was you're the worst salesperson
I've ever spoken to in my life.
I'm never going to buy thisproduct again.
Screw this company, and I hopeyou die or something like that,
and I was like I can't do this.
This is driving me crazy.
But I was young, I didn't knowwhat I was really doing yet, and

(09:14):
so it's a tense.
It could be very intense andfor anyone not to like, for
anyone sugar coated.
It's like I was like no, don'tbe upfront with the people that
you're hiring for this job,Because I mean, it's so hot.

Speaker 1 (09:29):
It can suck.

Speaker 2 (09:30):
Yeah, it can suck.

Speaker 1 (09:32):
I'm curious how did you push through it, like those
highs and lows of going?
You're the top, you're the best, you suck and personally, as an
individual, you should not havebeen born right or like that
type of sentiment, that like thevitriol that comes from some
people.

Speaker 2 (09:49):
How did you push through it.
Okay, I'll say two things.
One, to be honest, I actuallyquit right after that call.
I actually walked out.
I was like I threw out my hands.
It was like 10 o'clock in themorning on a Tuesday.
I was like nope.
And I seriously walked up and Iwas leaving.
My manager was like well, I wasa good performer, but just

(10:15):
mentally I don't think I wasthere just yet.
And looking back I think thatit was like, oh my God, my life
would be very, very different ifI stayed with that company.
It would just be kind of nightand day I think.
But I'm glad I did, because oneI didn't know what my limits

(10:39):
were just yet and I didn't knowhow to take that kind of
reaction to me just yet.
And I didn't have the skin orat least I thought I did, but I
didn't have it that much justyet.
Personal things are going thatway.
When you're young to work forat the time it was a very large

(10:59):
company.
To be that young to work for anorganization like that, you
really have to kind of hopefullyknow what you're getting
yourself into.
But I wasn't really ready tostart my career and do all those
things just yet.
What do you want?
I just wanted beer and money.

(11:20):
And so, after years of juststruggling to be financially
independent, to get a job thatactually paid anything, but also
, at the same time, reallydeveloping my skillsets even
further, I thought that the giftto GAB was just like I was

(11:44):
going to ride that wave untilthe bitter end.
And so, no, there are other ways.
I actually do this, and there'stechniques, I think, more than
anything else actually listeningto your prospects and customers
, of who you're trying to sell,and really understanding like,
okay, what is the value of themspeaking to us?

(12:05):
To begin with Learned all thosethings after I quit that
company, and it actually made mestronger Because one then I
knew, okay, what was the lowestof low that I can do in regards
to sales, and then build my wayback up, and it made me, I think
, ultimately a bettersalesperson, because I was
stubborn.
I'm still stubborn, but I wasstubborn enough to challenge

(12:28):
myself and put myself throughthe ringer, which that's how I
got through it.
I don't recommend it toeverybody, but if you want to
have a hero's journey, you cango for it, but I don't
necessarily recommend doing itthe way I did.

Speaker 1 (12:45):
I certainly crashed and burned in the first couple
of tips I had as a businessdevelopment representative.
We had a special project goingon at the company and I had no
training or anything like that.
But I was good at talking withpeople so people assumed like oh
he's good at talking withpeople so he should be good with
that initial, making a goodimpression.

(13:07):
He knew what he was talkingabout.
I knew the value propositionsand all that stuff.
I had all the things needed todo well yeah.
But I had this overwhelmingdesire to be liked and it caused
such a huge paralysis in theactual cold calls.
Because I personally, as anindividual who tries to treat

(13:30):
others the way that I want to betreated, don't call me, I don't
want to hear it, I don't wantanyone to try and sell me on
anything ever, period.
So, having that perspective andtrying to go into cold calling
where I'm thinking I wouldn'twant somebody to bother me, why
am I now I'm going to go andbother them.

Speaker 2 (13:51):
It's funny you say that, because now I love being
sold Over time doing reallypretty difficult jobs.
After that company there was anexperience I had with I did
door to door at one point.
At one point I was managing ateam at the time and it was

(14:19):
actually my first time managinga team.
At that point One of my repscalled me, crying.
I was like what's wrong?
This guy pulled a shotgun on me.
I'm freaking out.
I was like what?
I got so hungry for him and Idrove over to where they were,
got a car and he was in his carcrying.

(14:40):
I was like who did this?
This first time I became verymob bearish when it comes to any
of my team members and I walkedup to the house like how dare
you?
And I was yelling and he gotthe shotgun in his hand still
and he was starting to pull itup.
It was like you better get offmy property.
All you had to say was no, justno, thank you.

(15:03):
That's all you had to do.
But you had to be a dick andshow your shotgun off.
It's like well, this is goingto be representing your dick.
Well, it looks quite small nowin comparison.
And so I was furious.
And so I ever since then and Istarted doing cold calling for
another company later on I thenalways started thinking about it

(15:26):
.
I was like, well, at least it'snot a shotgun in my face.
So when someone is telling me,screw you or you deserve to die
and all these things, hey, atleast you're not sure a shotgun
in my face, that's totally fine.
It's like now I feel like myskin is so thick that now when
people are going ape and tellingme I can't believe you're
calling me or whatever it is andgiving me an objection, I find

(15:47):
it funny.
It actually kind of delights mebecause I've heard everything
now.
But it was like, at least it'snot a shotgun.
But again, I don't recommendgoing through literal L and near
death experiences to build upyour skin.
There's other ways to do it.

Speaker 1 (16:08):
Totally agreed.
I think it's an importantperspective that you're sharing,
though, which is have I donethings as challenging as this,
either in my current role orjust in my life?
Have I dealt with harder times?
Would I rather deal with thisthing I'm dealing with right now
or that previous situation?
And if the answer is thatprevious situation, then the

(16:28):
thing in front of you, it's notas bad.

Speaker 2 (16:32):
It's not as bad as putting things through
perspective.

Speaker 1 (16:35):
I think that's a great perspective to have.
So, talking about businessdevelopment, I like how you
started it out, with the factthat when you were starting out
you didn't know that there was aspecialized role focused on the
outreach, the cold calling, thesetting up the deals.
You saw it as a salesperson'sresponsibility to be a part of

(16:57):
it.
I think we would both agree,and others would agree, that
account executives, salespeople,must be able to do that, must
be able to perform thatparticular function.
It is critical in making a deal.
I like how you think about it,that you are setting up
prospects to become customers bybeing that first face, that

(17:19):
first interaction with thecompany, by being that tip of
the sphere.
So I think that's a very goodway to call it out.
The highs and the lows.
It's a tough job.
You have to have thick skin andyou can't take it personally,
and you have to deal withrejection and oftentimes
inflated numbers that you haveno idea where they came from or
why you're being held to achievethem, and so it is a tough role

(17:45):
but it is so critical.
But I like how you brought itall together with another
learning, not just the one abouthave I been through worse, but
the one where you realize thatit's not just an art, it is a
science.
That's a big debate with somesellers about the art of selling
versus the science of selling.
And that leads me to anotherquestion that I've got for you.

(18:08):
In your experience, what dopeople typically get wrong about
business development?

Speaker 2 (18:20):
And what.
It's easy.
I think that executiveleadership tends to not remember
what it was like, or if they'veever done it at all, and
thinking this they just put yourteeth in, they make it very.
The way they explain it, or theway that they explain it off,
is very blasé.
That I've seen, and I thinkevery salesperson worth their

(18:47):
weight should have gone throughthe ringer.
It's like you're training for asport or something like that.
You have to start with, youhave to learn how to do lifting
weights and sit-ups correctly soyou don't break your back and
all that crap, and so I thinkthat they tend to forget that

(19:08):
and then they just write it offas we'll just do it, just do it.
I have a very adverse to passingthings off.
I hate it when people say whensomeone comes up with bad news
or devastating news aboutsomething and you're telling
someone and they just say, oh,that sucks, that sucks.

(19:29):
I know that.
I know it sucks.
I'm trying to reverse with youand gain some kind of empathy or
sympathy at the very least islike what the hell are you
talking about?
It sucks, does it just do it?
Yeah, I know it's like chop, ofcourse.
I'm just going to just do it.

(19:49):
But what does that mean?
I think a lot of it comes tosuccessful any kind of like
biz-depth departments.
You're talking about a widevariety of people who get into
that role.
People who are trying to eitherget into sales ultimately and

(20:12):
have to start somewhere, tend tobe younger people.
It's a very stereotypical thingabout kids right out of high
school or college and gettinginto a company and blah, blah,
blah.
Definitely these days and Ithink that there's another
common misconception is like ohman, the younger generation,
which I also find very demeaning.

(20:34):
I'm an older millennial, but itwas like oh, millennials just
think it should just comenaturally.
Or they expect so much like,okay, hold on one second, screw
you, you dickbag, that's not howthis goes.
They expect more out of youbecause you're a company that
made a multi-million dollars inrevenue and is like, yeah, I

(20:56):
expect training, some continuoustraining.
Hopefully you know how to dothese things and how to tell us
how to do them.
It's like, sorry, if we justour expectations are high, it's
crazy, but the good salesdevelopment team needs to have
that type of training, liketeaching the science behind it

(21:16):
and then the arts behind it ismore of the.
That's the subjective sign ofhow to teach certain techniques,
but everyone learns at adifferent speed and rate.
Sometimes it takes people alittle bit longer, and that's
where it goes back to leadership, which is why I think that out

(21:39):
of touch executives just thingslike oh, just teach them how to
listen, teach them how to listenAre you stupid?
Like what does that mean?
It just takes a little bitlonger for certain types of
people, and I think that's whereyou really find good leadership
that can manage differentpersonalities and different
types of people and alsoidentifying what their I guess

(22:06):
training rates are.
There was a great leadershiptraining that I took years ago
called situational leadership,and again, getting into
leadership is like, oh, I justtalked to them, like you know
they're people and how to makethem like me, kind of like how
you were saying is like I justwant them to like me, because

(22:27):
that's what usually like.
Well, scott, I just want them tobe my friends.
I was like they'll be short,but also they need guidance.
And so situational leadershiptaught me that there are certain
situations that you need toprovide the you know less or

(22:47):
more guidance or you knowattention, and in that really
opened my eyes because I alwaysthought that again, out of touch
leadership, like well, who'syour A player, who's your B
player, who's your G player,even though I was oh.

Speaker 1 (23:06):
I always.

Speaker 2 (23:07):
I always still thought that was dismissive.
I was like, well, why isn't theC player an A player?
Because he's like you just gaveup and you're like, well,
they're going to or either goingto fire him or they're going to
quit it.
I always thought that, again,it's just like it's so
dismissive and demean and so youcan treat everyone differently
depending on the situation.

(23:28):
I thought that was way moreakin to like how I wanted to
think about like how to actuallylead people.

Speaker 1 (23:36):
That's the key word, right.
Lead.
Yeah, leadership requiresenablements of the people that
you're asking to perform aparticular duty, and often it
does come across as a do what Isay as opposed to we're in this
together, let's figure out howto be successful.

(23:57):
I like that.
You called it out that there'sthis common perspective of it's
easy and that can come from alot of different places.
Right, that can come from.
I've done this before, and soyou've got a little bit of like
survivorship bias, where they'vemade it to a certain point and,
looking back, it's because theydid all the right things, type
perspective.

(24:18):
I think there's also dependingon who the executives are.
If it's like founders andco-founders who are just super
on board, that's not the rightword.
Super enthused, super believersin their product, they believe
you just need to show it tosomeone and they're going to get
it and they're going to love it, and that's not the case.

(24:38):
It takes work to get to thatpoint, yeah, so I like that you
called it out.
You can't just take the Nikeapproach of just do it.
You have to really worktogether and build it out what's
required.
You have to build that trainingand that enablement and to even
get to that point.
The leadership team must getpast that.
Just do it.
It's easy attitude, becauseit's not.

(25:00):
It's about developing not justthe frameworks and processes
internally that are required,but the people who you are
asking to fill those positions,and that's what a great leader
does, and I'm glad you calledthat out.
I'm curious about you know,when we think about this, we
think about these commonmindsets that we encounter.

(25:20):
Have you encountered a stronglyheld opinion about business
development or within the roleof business development
representatives that youcompletely disagree with?

Speaker 2 (25:40):
One that and this is your course more of just like
other people's perceptions aboutwhat this dev or sales
development does, which also Ilove.
That industry cannot you know,figure out what to call it.

Speaker 1 (25:54):
It's either sale or sales To call it.

Speaker 2 (25:55):
Like I, I, I, I, whereas like oh well, this dev
is inbound and salesdevelopment's outbound.

Speaker 1 (26:02):
My other company is flip flop and like and then
sometimes business developmentis the partnership side of the
house and has nothing to do withinbound, outbound sales.

Speaker 2 (26:12):
I love it when companies love to play dress up
with titles and it's.
I always think it's reallyadorable and funny.
And even when it's like a bigcompany, we call them associate
sales managers.
So the cool callers like, okay,so it's like, just say it when
it is.
Shoot it straight, don't try tobe, don't try to sugarcoat it.
It drives me crazy.

Speaker 1 (26:32):
Yeah, should, it's straight.

Speaker 2 (26:34):
But, um, that the biggest thing that I I it drives
me crazy is that, um, this devpeople end up becoming like
almost like admins orsecretaries to to AEs and I was
like, no, that's not what theyare.
They, like everyone has afunction in the sales side.

(26:56):
I'm not just talking aboutsales people and marketing, csm
work, implementation, abouteverything, every part of it,
the whole company, the wholecompany and, like you're just a
different role and function inthis sales cycle or this, this
customer journey.
And, um, and sales dev or bizdev is again, like we were

(27:19):
saying earlier, is like the tipof the spear, so, like they're
not here, like to to bend at thewill for the AE to either, like
you know, do R and D researchand develop the, the pipeline
and find, like God almighty,like there's the one thing I
want to say to customer, anycompany that is, either has a
sales development team.
Like please, for God's sakes,invest in a data management

(27:42):
person.
Like, if you don't have a datamanagement person, you're excuse
me, I'm like you're fuckingidiot.
Like it drives me crazy becauseit takes away time from biz dev
and sales dev teams, becausethey, like you, know executive
leadership, but they're likewhoa, why are they cool calling
all day?
It's like because they have tofind who else to call.
Like because you know thatperson doesn't work there

(28:05):
anymore and now they have to geta hopefully referral or just go
back to the drawing board, goand LinkedIn or zoom info or
whatever else tool that's outthere to find data.
And it drives them crazy.
They wish in a lot of ways,they wish you could just do
their job.
It's kind of crazy, right, andso they're not there and like in
only biz dev.

(28:26):
If a biz dev team exists at acompany, like that should be.
I mean, I don't want to likeagain diminish what they do, but
that's like a luxury.
That's like, and don't liketake it for granted, like that
is a very specialized team thatis doing the hardest work

(28:47):
possible that they in an AEshould view a biz dev team as
that kind of luxury.
There's like, oh my God,because, like the biggest hassle
for an AE to do is to tounderstand how to forecast for
their month, quarter in year,okay, and if you don't know how
to do that, then your manager isnot telling you how to do that

(29:10):
and so they are forecasting it.
That's extremely important.
So if, if a sales rep in AE isunable to forecast really
showcase that they have at leastthree to four X their pipeline
to actually let only close for ayear.
Because I mean, that's thepoint is that hopefully you have
about a 20 to 30% close rate atleast that's traditional

(29:33):
industry rates.
If you have that then youshould be good.
So if you're lacking on yourown pipeline generation for an
account executive, thenhopefully this SDR can actually
start to cover that gap.
Maybe you're at like 2.5 ormaybe 3x.
Well, if this SDR can hopefullyget you another one X of that

(29:53):
pipeline, then you should begood and like you should be
thanking your lucky stars,because one you probably don't
want to do that kind of hardwork again.
So like it should be like theother way around.
Like the AE you're like how canI help you do your job?
It's like you're a you knowagain traditionally a quote
unquote junior sales rep gettinginto this world.

(30:13):
Like what can I teach you?
What can I help you with tofind more out there that I just
don't have the time for.
I mean AE's Dillow's discoverygolf actually closing the damn
business is like it should beflipped on.
The mindset of like how they'reworking with an SDR or VDR, and
and and also again, ae should bewilling to do what they're

(30:37):
doing at any given moment.
I mean definitely in this dayand age, right now, I mean a lot
of sales teams and just peopleare being laid off left and
right.
I mean sales development,business development, kind of
like the first things to look atin the sales org to be let go,
and so like AE should be readyto rock and roll at any given
moment.
And because I think also andI've been in the account

(31:02):
executive and I know I can bejust lazy in general, but AE's
can be lazy as shit to their joband and just like sit back and
watch the leads roll in, if you,if you do that and you feel
that way, then quite franklyit's like you got.
You got a whole lot worryingstill left to do.
Because if you can properlypartner with another person at

(31:28):
the organization, especiallywith someone that's actually
feeding like buffet, but feedingyou more, god Almighty, like
I've never had the luxury ofhaving an SDR or VDR to generate
leads for me, and so it's liketo have someone else do that.
Like what, what can I do foryou person.
I'm going to help you out,guess it's going to help me, and

(31:50):
that's how I also view likeleadership, like your success
breeds my success, and that'show an E should look at it as
well.
With the BDR and SDR is likeyour success will breed my
success.
What can I do to help you out?

Speaker 1 (32:04):
And that's a concept that's true between any
relationship within the companyinternally and prospective
customers and current customersexternally is what can I do to
help you out?
Because the more I can help you, you know, the more you're able
to be successful.
Uh-huh, ideally, that turnsinto a mutually beneficial

(32:24):
situation for all partiesinvolved.
Yeah, I like how you called itout that business development is
a luxury, and really,especially the smaller the
company is, this idea ofspecialized roles are, in fact,
a luxury because there's so muchinvolved in, let's say, sales,

(32:45):
for example.
Right, you have to.
You know, ideally you're workingwith the marketing team and
ideally the product works and issomething that solves a problem
that people are wanting to payfor.
Let's assume, like all theseideal situations have been set
up, you have to find who you'regoing to reach out to.
Ideally they've reached out toyou, but not always the case and

(33:06):
then the whole sales process,depending on what you're selling
, of course, takes a significantamount of time.
You have to make it trackableand traceable so that one, you
know what is going on and whatneeds to happen next, and your
boss knows as well.
So that's often updatingSalesforce, for example which is

(33:27):
a pain, a time consumingactivity.
It takes away from doing theactual job.
Like how you brought up theexample of cold calling.
How come people aren't makingmore calls?
Well, it's because they have todo all this other work just to
prepare to then make the coldcall.
And so the more that you canhave specialized roles who take
that off and pass it on, almostlike creating an assembly line

(33:50):
Right, and like that's the niceflow of work that you want to be
able to happen, to process that.
I agree with you that theyshould not be looked at as
secretaries.
Some of the worst AEs that Ihave worked with sit back and
just expect the leads to roll inwithout taking an active role
in it, and I think that comesfrom their previous experiences

(34:13):
of working with way moreestablished companies that have
that assembly line processalready in place.

Speaker 2 (34:20):
Right, yeah.

Speaker 1 (34:21):
And that's not the case for these smaller,
scrappier startup organizations.
So I think that was a perfectthing for you to call out.
I have seen very successful AEsand BDRs working together to be
strategic, like here's thedivision of labor, here's the
division of responsibilities.
I'm gonna do X, y and Z.
I need you to focus on A, b andC.

(34:42):
My goal is to get this piece ofinformation so that we can go
to this person and do this thing, et cetera, which is a totally
different scenario, one that I'msure you would approve of.
So I think it's a great thingto call out.

Speaker 2 (34:54):
Yeah, I mean, why wouldn't you want it?
From my point of view, whywouldn't you want to be that way
, to be one, to be a team player?
But, like you know, here's atip for you AEs.
I mean, if you're kinder toyour peer and you're trying to
help them out, one, you see amuch slower burnout rate from

(35:19):
SDRs and BDRs.
Because, I mean again, if youhaven't been told to go screw
yourself a hotter times a dayand you're just not used to that
, I mean, the burnout rate is alot faster than other types of
roles.
So, like, if you'recollaborating but also showing,
like what else they do afterthey graduate, let's say, from

(35:40):
an SDR, bdr role, like thatmeans you're also helping the
organization retain them, likethat's the biggest thing too is
that you're all apart.
So you're still kind ofinternally selling, like working
for the company too, like a lotof people just don't realize
that and as like, well, it'seither make or break it and,
like you know, you don't have tothink that way.

(36:03):
You have to go to like a gobletand it's just like whoever
comes out through the meatgrinder is like oh, they're okay
, there's still people thatcould be taught and develop
these techniques, even thoughfor how difficult it could be
and like and AE's a part of thattoo, and it's unfortunate when
and I've seen this, like youwere saying too is you know,

(36:25):
I've seen AE's develop greatpartnerships with SDRs and BDRs
and there's nothing morefulfilling to see that because
it's just like they're alsohuman.
Like what are you treating likeshit.
But then sometimes they justcompletely take advantage of
BDRs and SDRs and I think thosesalespeople like one, my initial

(36:47):
reaction, like that momentbearer kind of aspect, is just
like I don't want them to workwith you at all and you can go
screw yourself.
It's like then go back to thedrawing board and develop
yourself, or like self-generate.
I was like cause.
All I have to do is tell themnot to colk off for you.
That's all I gotta do.
It's quite easy and I've doneit before and you're like what

(37:09):
do we do?
It's like well, that's becauseyou're a dick and you were
trying to take advantage of theperson and they're just trying
to start it in the sales careerCause now all they're knowing is
like oh so AE's are bastards.
It was like what's you doing?
And like do you realize thatyour actions are affecting this
person's like one perspective oflike what a sales career could

(37:30):
be?
And then they're just going toperpetuate that when they become
an AE themselves.
It's like oh, I guess I treatlike SDRS videos like shit, you
idiots, they drive to be crazy.

Speaker 1 (37:41):
Yeah, that's why I can't get on board.
You know, with the workforceissues that you hear a ton about
in the media of, and you hearthis quote people don't want to
work anymore.
Right, like how?
How frequently does it come up?
And I hate that because I'm abig believer in extreme
ownership, which is that conceptpopularized by Jocko Willink,

(38:05):
and I think that that is such aprime example of not taking
ownership.
People say people don't want towork anymore Because really
it's, people don't want to workanymore for you, for you Exactly
, for your company, for yourindustry, for your department,
for your management team, foryour AE's.

(38:26):
And that idea of extremeownership, of really coming
together and understanding, okay, but why do people not want to
work?
It's not government handouts Imean, look, some people are
going to be in that camp, suresure, but it's it's much more.

Speaker 2 (38:42):
It's not going to be the majority.
No, not at all.
They just like I'm sorry.
I guess people just don't wantto be treated like shit.
It's crazy right.

Speaker 1 (38:51):
It's almost an abdication of responsibility.
It's like, well, there'snothing we can do because people
don't want to work, instead oflooking inward and doing that
self reflection of saying, well,what you know, is it enjoyable
to work here?
Cause that's the thing.
It has to be enjoyable, Like itjust does.
You have to be willing to putup with and deal with it, and

(39:12):
for so long that just hasn'tbeen the case.

Speaker 2 (39:14):
And he like you start to ask people and it's like do
you enjoy your job?
And a lot of people say nobecause they're just having to
like grin and bear it.
And it's like, why does it haveto be that way?
It's like, why do?

Speaker 1 (39:30):
you people.

Speaker 2 (39:33):
It sucks so much that , like you know, leadership or
some companies just don't get itand they're coming from this
like 1982 mindset.
He's like, well, you just haveto go through Helen back to make
it to the top and then you know, you'll go through Helen back
and then someday you'll make$100,000 a year.
They should not talk.
They're like, why, why can't Ienjoy what I do, Even if I'm

(39:58):
making 30, 40 grand a year, butstill enjoy it and still want to
challenge myself to thenprogress in my career, in this
case sales?
Because why do I have to gothrough a literal shitstorm
every day for the next likethree years?
It doesn't have to be that way.
When people are happier, theysell more and the customers are

(40:21):
happier.
So that idea is the dumbest wayof approaching how to lead and
how to them, you know, developyour team members.
It's horseshit.

Speaker 1 (40:33):
And this is something that I personally think has
been brewing for years, maybeeven for generations, but it was
the COVID pandemic.
That really kind of sparked themass amount of like yeah, why,
you know, like anything couldhappen in life, why wouldn't we
spend it doing?
Spend that time that we havedoing the things that we want to

(40:55):
do Right, and I think that's aninteresting topic for us to get
into, because this is whereyour story of disaster starts
right.
Yeah, sure, yeah, yeah, you knowsetting the scene.
You know you and I had talked.
This was right around the COVIDpandemic that you know that

(41:16):
your story that you're about toshare comes into play.
So tell us about your story ofdisaster.

Speaker 2 (41:21):
Well, the organization that I was working
for right before COVID wasseriously, at that point in my
career, the best company I'veever worked for.
It was.
It was fantastic.
I loved the culture, the people, the product.
I thought was great Leadershipfor you know all it's like.

(41:43):
You know blemishes here andthere was pretty solid.
And the person that was leadingthe organization one of the
founders of the company he wasstill very actively involved.
He would still get on.
I remember he got a customercall with me.
The guy was like so many runsup on the sales totem pole.

(42:05):
I was like, oh my God, I can'tbelieve this guy's doing this.
And this was like a fairlyestablished company and I
appreciated that.
And so the pandemic hit and itwas funny I, just because I was
leading another I was leading asales team at a full sales cycle
team and then I had a chance todevelop a sales development
team at a company that hadn'thad one in years and it was like

(42:28):
, oh man, 2020 is gonna be agood year.
I'm gonna hit like the firstcouple of months we were doing
crazy business, like we weremaking tons of set meetings,
discovery calls, like it was themost money I'd ever made on a
commission check in my entirelife and leading a team, that's
the other thing too.
I don't tell you when you getinto sales management is that.

(42:51):
I remember the first time I gotmy commission check and you do
see what your team members aremaking too.
One of my team members who wasjust destroying it he made more
money I did on his commissioncheck.
I leaned over my mentor, whowas a manager too.
He was my previous manager andI asked him.
I was like what the hell isthis?
And he just like welcomed thefucking shell.

(43:13):
I was like wait what and so,but leading the sales
development team, I was makingmoney.
Henry Fisk, like they had toget like the CFO involved just
to make sure it was doing theirreports correctly.
He are.
So then this funny thinghappened in March, in 2020.
And, of course, covid broke out.

(43:35):
They sent us all home and then,about a month or so later, they
furloughed everyone and then,three months later, of course,
the CEO had to be optimistic,like I think in August
everything could be fine.
Well, so we about third of thecompany was laid off, and which
included myself and a lot of myteam members, and so I was out

(43:58):
of job and have greatrecommendations for video games
Inno Lacrosse was awesome and soI then had the opportunity,
through my network and thenpeople that I had previously
worked with, to work forbasically a direct competitor
for the same industry, and so Iinherited the sales development

(44:23):
team and I was like, okay, sothis is kind of the first time I
was doing that, and also I, youknow, we were doing everything
remotely, but I had a chance todo that actually with previous
company because two of my teammembers were based in state, and
so I was like, oh, this couldbe weird.
I'd never had to converse withpeople, just only via Zoom, and

(44:46):
it actually became easy.
It was like, oh well, just keepup the same cadence of you know
, during one-on-ones, teammeetings, standups or whatever
it is, and, you know, be readilyavailable on Slack if they need
you for whatever reason.
But just set those expectations.
And it's not, quite frankly,that different from managing
people face to face.
You lose that, you know, littlepersonal touch here and there,

(45:09):
but you could still manage well,even relatively.
I learned that very quickly.
And then the pandemic and now Iinherited this team was like, oh
, this is not that different.
So but these team members, theseSTRs, had worked all throughout
the pandemic which I was like Idon't know how you guys did
this, like this is nuts, and buta lot of them had been there

(45:33):
for a while where they'rewanting to take their next steps
into an AE role and I've beenvery, you know, vocal about
career development and wantingto like you know you do your
time, you're hitting yournumbers.
Then I've always told my teammembers like I want you off my
team in a year.
I like that, I want you to takethat next step, cause I mean,
if you're an STR manager orleader or whatever it is, I mean

(45:54):
you got to be prepared to likeget them off your team, even
though if they're kicking a lotof ass for you, that's one
that's insanely unfair.
If you just like, well, butthey're my best person, I want
to keep them on my team.
It's like then you deserve tobe fired.
If that's the way these days, Ifundamentally believe, because
if they're that good, then theyneed to get onto, hopefully, a

(46:17):
sales team to make more revenuefor the organization.
Crazy concept, right?
And it's like how do you notthink that way?
Either way so.

Speaker 1 (46:29):
It's not a common thought process among managers,
among leadership, and I thinkit's really related to what is
the culture that's been set andwho's teaching them how to be a
certain way right, because thisis not.
You know, we can get down tokind of the previous topic of
the art and science of sales.
Well, there's an art andscience to leadership too, and

(46:50):
that perspective of you're a topperformer and I want you off my
team, assuming that yourpersonal goal and development
and growth is whatever thesenext steps are.
But I do think it is theresponsibility of a leader to
help, guide and shepherd peopleto where they want to go.
100% yeah.
So you COVID hit, you werefurloughed, then laid off and

(47:13):
then you landed at a competitor.
So the industry, the sameindustry, yeah, and this was an
industry that was decimated bythe COVID-19 pandemic.
So this was like, just to makesure everyone understands the
challenge that you were takingon of making a team successful
of building a team in thistimeframe for this industry with

(47:36):
this type of product.
it was quite the undertaking andI wanted to make sure that
that's the gravity is understood.

Speaker 2 (47:42):
I appreciate that.
I mean I was, you know, I thinkabout like don't make excuses,
but, like you know, that was avery special situation.
I mean none of us had been atleast for us have ever been in
that situation.
What do you do?
No only from the individualstandpoint.

(48:03):
We're like that's a company andlike how do you not go?
I mean, plenty of companieswent under and I mean people
were fired and laid off and shit, yeah.
So it was very difficult.
So we and since most of my teammembers were looking to become
AEs and they were not hiringCharlie just yet because they

(48:24):
were basically just trying tolike hold on to every customer
they have from either cancelingor hell, just trying to like
hopefully to have them not gounder themselves and just
retaining as much as they have.
So they weren't internallyhiring yet.
So I lost like good 60, 70% ofmy team within the first like
two months, because they werelike I gotta move into an AE

(48:46):
role and because I had thisother opportunity and I was very
you know, I was very empathetic, but at the same time I was
like I was encouraging, likewe're not doing this right now,
we're not hiring for it.
So you have two options One,you stay here and we will work
together and not only making youstill very successful in

(49:07):
exceeding your targets here inthis role, but hopefully within
the next six months.
If we're gonna be start hiringfor, you know, smb AEs, then
we'll have that opportunity.
But if you need to take thisleap right now because you need
to either make more money orthis is the opportunity you
wanna take now that's presentingitself, then I fully encourage
you to do that.
Like I'm not gonna tell someonelike stay here, it's gonna get

(49:29):
better.
Like I can't in good consciencedo that.
So I lost about five of my teamvery quickly and I was like I
get it, I totally understand,but I was also tasked with two
Xing my team within whether Istarted in like November 2020
and like March or April, twoXing.

(49:51):
I was like well, I just lostmost of my team and I had that
as like I had to rebuild it, butI did.
I mean we had to be verycreative and nimble how we were
approaching the marketplaceanyway, because, again, the
country was still shut out andindustry that we were selling
into was still just utterlyfucked from the pandemic.

(50:12):
And like we do, and it's not tobe super creative and figure
out ways to like kind of doubleup SDRs on particular territory,
cause it was a territory basedgo to market strategy and which,
in an odd way, actually helpedus out quite a bit, cause at
least, like you know more, let'ssay, the central time zone was

(50:36):
a little bit more laxed on COVIDrestrictions.
So they're like.
I will say, in a very horrificway, thank God for some states
that just didn't, I guess, givea shit about COVID, cause it
kept us afloat a little bit, butthat still was kind of
devastating.
Kind of states that way morerestrictive, that also were

(51:01):
California's and New York's thatwere, I would say, have that
industry they were selling into,supposed to be a lot more
profitable anyway.
So, but we did it, we, throughthick and thin, we got through
it and we were still strugglingto hit our target and it was
also.
It really tested me on how toset expectations, and I mean

(51:29):
even down to like KPIs, likewhat do you, how do you do that
when, like you know, when mostof the people that you're
calling it, just like we'restruggling to keep the lights on
, which I could clearlyunderstand is like, how do you
set?
Like okay, you need to make 50calls a day, and like, and you,
you're talking to people thatcan't do anything right now?

(51:51):
Yeah, it was just, it wasstraight.
Like I didn't know what, fullyadmit, I didn't know exactly how
to approach it and, and a lotof people just also assumed that
I would, which I, you know,I've done these things before,
but again it was a very specialcircumstance.
So it was very difficult, tosay the least, to figure out how

(52:17):
to get this whole thing goingand to still set up my team for
success but also hopefully setup the AEs with enough to still
sell.
And it was no matter what, itwas, just it was going to be
difficult, every struggle thatwe were like running into, and
still difficult to hit ourtargets, which we barely did
most of the time.

Speaker 1 (52:39):
It was a tough time.
There's no overlooking that.
It was a tough time, not justprofessionally but personally,
for everyone, and no one knewthat it was going to last for
years, right as well.
So, and there's nothing wrongwith you acknowledging that the,
the, the, the obstacles werethere and just, it's still an

(52:59):
objective approach to say thisis what we were dealing with,
this was our goal and I, likeyou, know that you still
explored creative ways to tryand meet that goal.
Yeah, but you know, it soundslike, despite the efforts, it
was still a time of turmoil,still struggled to hit some
targets.

Speaker 2 (53:18):
Yeah, but you know, for everything we were going
through, we was able to still,you know, build off team to the
full eight you know headcountand then to exit.
But by when I was getting tolike 13 or 14 headcount, we
finally I told the leadershipswe got to get another manager in

(53:38):
here.
So I had the first opportunityto manage a manager and then
manage a much bigger team allaround and that was great.
I mean, I've been doing salesdevelopment leadership or just
sales manager or salesleadership for a while, but my
next step was becoming adirector to oversee managers.

(54:00):
Because, like you know, aswe've been talking this entire
time, there's been so manythings.
I'm just like I want to shake amanager like we can.
We don't have to just like well, I had to go through hell.
Like they need to go through.
Like we don't need to do itthis way.
Like you need to think aboutwhat we're doing here.
We need to think about, youknow, again, retaining these
people, because interviewing andputting people through training

(54:25):
on onboarding and then trainingman like I like doing it, but
it added that's a tough thingthat people don't talk about.
I think enough managers likeand it costs so much money for a
company to like find and hiresomeone and then you know,
praying to God, that like justthat they're gonna work out.
Because, like back at my, when Iwas 21, went through I did a

(54:50):
month of training at that bigcompany and I remember the first
day on the floor I had a buddythat was like my buddy there.
We went through trainingtogether.
We were both very excited andthey just pushed us in the deep.
All right, go get out there andbe somebody.
And I was.
I came back at the end of theday with my manager.

(55:10):
I was like that was rough, butI think I'm getting it.
And then my buddy, he was likeyeah, that was it for me.
And he quit right there.
I was like wow what?
and he's like, yeah, I don'twant to do this.
And he went through a month oftraining and the first day on
the floor, quit, whoa and.
And my manager was like, yeah,makes sense.
And it was like, oh, and I was.

(55:32):
I was shocked because I wasalso coming from.
You know my background, youknow being, I would say, from
humble means.
Maybe that was just like youhave a job, what are you talking
about?
You can't quit and so, yeah, Inever quit a job before.
I always just had to like, yeah, leave, for you know I moved or

(55:54):
whatever.
Um, so um, you know it's, it'snot talked about enough to her.
Like, man, you, you gottaapproach this by.
You know you want to make thisa place to where your team
members want to work and also besuccessful.
I mean, you're not getting intousually sales just to be like
mediocre.
That doesn't make any sense.

(56:14):
It's like you're not gonna makeany money that way, right?

Speaker 1 (56:18):
right?
No, I think that's a great callout.
You were tasked with managingand developing a team during a
very tough time and hadretention problems for factors
outside of your control.
Yeah, I appreciate that yourfocus was on what was best for
them and, being real, I thinkthat that's all you can do, yeah
, as a leader, and and there'sgoing to be those situations

(56:40):
where it's like, look, there'sjust not an opportunity for you
to do that thing that you wantto do here and I can't guarantee
that there's going to be one inthe future right, so your
options are to continue doingwhat you're doing or look to
change it up, and I think that'ssuch a great thing for you to
call out.
It's not for everyone like this.
This role is not for everyone,but it is a tough situation.
Yeah, so the you know, in atthat point, you were trying

(57:04):
creative things.
You're trying to keep the teamafloat.
You were trying to lead them todevelop these deals that AEs
could then take and close.
Things weren't happening.
What happened next?

Speaker 2 (57:16):
well, the I mean we we are building up the team
enough to where then we had, youknow, manager, and we were
about like 14, 15, 16 strong,like head count wise.
So we had full teams.
But you know, we were stillstruggling because it was still
at that point.
It was still in the middle oflike 2021 and then getting past

(57:38):
Q2, getting into Q3.
I knew that the organizationand you know when that happens
or when a company is trying tofocus on that, that's when they
really start to try to bring inthe big guns, you could say, and
then bring in people that aremore or less going to make it

(57:59):
happen, like now, and and sothey brought in a new CRO and
this person they came in and I,you know, I didn't necessarily
have, you know, any expectations.
I've worked with a CRO in thepast, back at previous company,

(58:22):
and what I knew about that CRO Iknew.
I knew him, I knew how heworked and how he looked at
things and the transparency thathe needed.
It was one of the best likepiece of advice that my my
previous company at that timegave me.
Who are the?
My director gave me is okay,you go into those like the

(58:46):
leadership meetings and you'reit's like a revenue ops call and
you're like this is where weare for the week, a month so far
.
He told me, like all right, yougo in there, full transparency
of where you are, what are theissues going on, how you're
going to try to resolve them andif there's any requests or asks

(59:08):
of executive leadership to helpyou out to either resolve those
issues and you come up withthose ideas of what they can do,
you go in there.
But if they have no questionsfor him, because the first
couple of times I went in thereI was like I was.
Maybe I was a little too likesalesy of like you know, you
know how we're, you know,approaching an issue or

(59:29):
something like that we're askingtoo much of them like I don't
know, I didn't want that they.

Speaker 1 (59:35):
They were like what are?

Speaker 2 (59:36):
you going to try to do and then, once they gave me
that advice, I'd go in there andgive them.
Give them all the good, the badand the ugly and how I'm going
to hopefully try to cure thosebad and ugly and uh and then
move on from there.

Speaker 1 (59:51):
That's a great framework by the way yeah like
to use consistently for sure.

Speaker 2 (59:57):
And then I and I was like I was always in a like five
minutes.
I was super sweetly clean and II was very animate with my team
members like you update yourshit and sales force.
I told them from day one.
I was like I want us to be thestandard of a few things.
One, I want us to be thestandard of how to use Sierra
I'm a huge proponent of salesforce, it's not difficult how to

(01:00:17):
use it and but I want us to bethe gold standard at this
organization to help me have howto use this damn thing and how
transparency can work on ourfavor and we work.
I love that and.
But I knew how that's CROworked and we were good.
We're good.
This year I came in like bullin a china shop and I the the

(01:00:40):
second conversation I had withhim.
Uh, this was, um, this I.
I knew something was very wrongwith how he started the
conversation.
He's like hey, so I've heard alot of bad things about you.
Nice to meet you.

Speaker 1 (01:00:57):
I was like wait, I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 (01:00:57):
Oh my goodness uh, I was like, excuse me, hello, and
um, and uh, you know, I was like, oh, uh, whatever do you mean?
And um, he, you know, explainedthat that with not hitting our
numbers consistently, that, um,we're, you know, doing a bad job

(01:01:22):
.
And I was like, oh, did you nothear about this thing that was
killing hundreds of thousands ofpeople, that also decimated and
destroyed practically thisindustry that we're trying to
sell into?
And but also, this person camefrom a completely different
industry, which, again, iscompletely fine, and I think
that you know, not necessarilyhaving a background in the

(01:01:42):
industry and you're getting intoa new one, it's not like
completely, just like, oh,that's, that won't work.
I mean, there are.
There's a reason why they're inthat role.
Is that they, hopefully, aremalleable enough, uh, that they
are taking their best practicesand skill sets to that new
industry to hopefully rework itand make it even better.
There's a reason why he washired, um, but I'm assuming from

(01:02:05):
that first conversation, like,oh, your interpersonal skill
sets are not the greatest.
So, um, he's like, yeah, I'veheard nothing but bad things.
So here's the deal.
Uh, I'm gonna re-interview youfor your job and I was like nice
to meet you, my name is blahblah blah I was like.
I was like wait what?
I was like, oh, and man, Iimmediately started thinking

(01:02:30):
about the shotgun in my facething.
I was like, okay, remember,there was a shotgun in your face
.
Don't forget that, because thiswas testing me.
Uh, on it like on aprofessional level and a
personal level, basicallytelling me like your dog shit.
So I want to see if you're like, you're worth your weight of
anything.

(01:02:51):
I was like, oh, my god.
I was like okay uh, I understand, um let's, let's do it.
And he's like um yeah, let's doit tomorrow okay oh, my
goodness, and so like nextmorning, like eight o'clock in
the morning, I had to readinterview for my job that I had
already for at that point a yearand I was like, oh my gosh,

(01:03:17):
this is happening and that's aterrible experience it's.
It was, it was so intense.
I've never had my anxietypersonally and professionally
tested that much, um, in myentire life.
It was just, it was so intense,and so I, I prepared, uh, like

(01:03:38):
I, you know, set up a whole deck, like I wanted to really try to
wow him and and I wasinternally selling myself, which
was, and you, had you had nocontext for this interview, just
like tomorrow you were going tore-interview with me.
Was there any direction providedof like I want you to come with

(01:03:59):
this or speak, speak aboutthese things uh, yeah, maybe a
little bit, um, but I mean Iwanted to, you know, you know,
go the extra mile and showcase,you know, everything that I had
done and what my team has doneat that point.
You know what we'veaccomplished with.
You know what's obviously beengoing on in the industry, of
course, and with all thefailures as well again be

(01:04:21):
transpired, but also transpiredwith the, the good things that
we have done.
At that point, well, uh, it waslike I trying to get to know
them.
Even initially it was just likeI I've had a root canal before.
I would take that root canalover, talk with that person

(01:04:43):
without anesthesia or likenumbing or anything like oh man,
this is this is rough, likepainful.
Yeah, this is very painful.
Um so, of course, the interviewwas like an hour long and I I I
have never done like stand-upcomedy before, but I was like,
oh, this is bombing, it's like.
I was like man, I'm not gettinganything across the audience

(01:05:06):
like this is just like only indeaf years, um, and so you know
I'm going through it.
It was, it was a lot.
He was giving me likeobjections to like literally
everything I was saying and youknow it gave me some kind of
well, okay, and um, you know,give me some leeway here and

(01:05:26):
there.
Yeah, I mean it.
You tell me how to do it, likehow I was supposed to call us
this, and.
But also I thought it was, youknow, pretty demoralizing when
he told me that, um, the rest ofthe leadership lost like
respect for me or lost all hopethat I was going to do a good

(01:05:47):
job.
And I was like what and?
Um, because I to be and this isnot me just play like dumb or
anything, but like I had notgotten any kind of feedback from
my leadership, but also any ofmy peers say like wow, you
really shouldn't have bed, whatare you doing?
And, uh, like everyone's belike hey, you know it's a Brian

(01:06:08):
at his struggle right now.
Like what can we do to help out?
You know, everyone's verycollaborative and so this is the
first time I'm hearing it'slike, by the way, like you know,
other than chilling yourself,like you know, you should really
think about what you're doingin your life.
And it's like god almighty.
And so he then asked me is like,well, okay, I see everything

(01:06:28):
you're presenting and I justdon't really buy it.
I was like, okay, uh, I waslike, yeah, I, you know, I see
what you're saying, but you know, I just, I think you really
drop all and everything, blah,blah, blah.
And so my, my last question toyou is you know, if you, you
know, interviewing for this job,and if you don't get it, if you

(01:06:53):
don't retain this position andsomeone else gets inside of you,
I wonder what is that going todo to your ego?
And I was like, what, what?
I was like, yeah, what is itgoing to do to your pride or
your ego?
And I never even personallybeen asked that before, let

(01:07:15):
alone in a professional setting.
And it was I was interviewingand I was flabbergasted.

Speaker 1 (01:07:26):
And this whole situation seems like an HR
nightmare.
Well, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:07:31):
I mean it definitely was.
I mean I'll explain it in anultimately what happened.
But I looked back at what Isaid and how I responded to it.
I was like, man that's, Ithought of that shotgun and I
was like how to take the shotgunright now instead?

(01:07:51):
Wow I was like shh.
So I told him one.
I don't think that matters ofwhat I would do to my ego,
because all that would mean isthat I need to prove to you and
the organization that, while Ican do this job well and exceed
your expectations and goals towhere, then I can earn that role

(01:08:12):
back.
That's all it would do to me.
And of course his response waslike yeah, whatever.
And he was asking that questionto break me because I was just
so stunned by how brazen hisquestion was and of course we

(01:08:38):
end the call.
He's like all right, dude, goodjob today.
I'm like okay, and that waslike that's how I began my day.
That was at eight o'clock inthe morning.

Speaker 1 (01:08:47):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:08:48):
I was like go out there and be somebody, oh my God
.
So next day he calls me upearly.
Hey, he calls me up and he'slike, hey, good news.
I was like, yeah, I was likeyou do get the job.
I was like, oh great, okay,he's like, yeah, someone else
did, but you're going to be justa manager instead of leading

(01:09:12):
the other manager.
Okay, and quite frankly, Ilooked at it and I was like
there's a silver lining toeverything and my first initial
thought was like, oh, thank God,I don't have to talk to him.
Someone else has to deal withhim directly.
And that's how I looked at itand, honestly, it made my
work-life balance much morepositive in the end.

(01:09:36):
And you know, granny, I wastechnically demoted, which was a
pretty big drag.
But now I just had to manage myteam members and I was like,
okay, I could do that.
I mean, I've done every yearand this is something I can
definitely handle.
And again, I don't have to gothrough like walking on
eggshells around this person allthe time, which was not fun at

(01:09:59):
all.
And I was actually pretty good.
My team was excelling andexceeding goal and I was like,
hey, and then I started thinkingabout okay, wasn't I even ready
for that just yet?
And it was like, well, I was.
It was just again the situationitself.
It's just like time is, youknow, heal everything.

(01:10:23):
But what was happening at thetime when I was being successful
, what was it?
The country starting to open upagain, like, oh, okay, and it's
crazy, right, like things arestarting to be better because,
just naturally, the industry ishealing and the states were
finally opening things back upagain.
So, naturally, I was like, oh,I'm starting to hit my numbers

(01:10:48):
again and exceed them and we'redoing better in this.
And I and the other thing wasthat when I was managing the
other manager and their team, Iwas still managing my own
individual team too.
So I was like managing likebasically like 20 something
people all on my own.
It's way too much it was a lotand, and so this person finally

(01:11:10):
just got to manage us twomanagers, and then I got one of
my team members that actuallycame promoted.

Speaker 1 (01:11:16):
So they're now their three managers.

Speaker 2 (01:11:17):
It was like you know, 20 something, 26 strong
headcount for individualcontributors.
So the problem was is that thatdirector went on maternity
leave and and then that meantthat we had to like, oh, oh,
spaghettios, we have to workwith the CRO directly again.
And, luckily and unluckily, oneof my colleagues manager.

(01:11:42):
They were like the de facto,they were the interim director
and man, it's just like I could.
I can imagine like what, likehardcore hazing for fraternities
, just like how much, just uttershit that this might park with

(01:12:04):
my peer and good friend wentthrough during those three
months that the director was onmaternity leave.
It was just like hell, literalhell on earth.
We had to do like QBRs thethree of us and just go through
it.
And this, this CRO, was justman, it was.
It was as if it was the firsttime I talked to him again.
Jesus Christ, it was just soutterly intense.

(01:12:27):
And then we just started tolearn more about how this person
worked with people and like theway that they viewed the world.
They were very, you know, they.
They diminished the effect ofwhat COVID did and like didn't
think it was that big of a deal.
I don't know what evidence youneed.

Speaker 1 (01:12:51):
And.

Speaker 2 (01:12:52):
I would say those you know, 600,000, maybe more now
that are dead was good enoughand so it was just dealing with
him was so just awful.
At any given moment.
It was like anytime he wouldcall.
Like I started to develop likea fear or anxiety when I saw

(01:13:12):
like the green bubble pop up onhis name on Slack.

Speaker 1 (01:13:16):
Oh God, that means he's working, see it Anyway.

Speaker 2 (01:13:22):
So you know, we would spend days and nights, the
three of the managers, the threeof us, just working together,
just making sure that all of ournumbers were airtight.
We knew what we were talkingabout all the time and we just
still just like getting ourkneecaps blown off at any given
moment and she's like this is sofucked.

Speaker 1 (01:13:46):
So, yeah, you're you know you already had a tough
situation.
This guy comes in and seems tomake it worse.
Yeah, and I love that you stillare trying to make the best of
it.
You're still trying to findwhat can I learn, what can I do,
how can I develop myself, andhow you took that as an
opportunity to you know, once itonce again go back to, we're
going to be this standard of ateam, we're going to be the you

(01:14:10):
know, the gold standard thatpeople think of, and you started
to lead your team to success.
It helps that the market wasshifting back into a more
favorable position.
Yeah, the, the person who tookover your role that you got
demoted from, went on maternityleave.
A colleague stepped up as theinterim director, but it was

(01:14:30):
back to you dealing with thisguy, this guy who so far seems
to have not really contributedanything to it being positive to
the company.

Speaker 2 (01:14:40):
No, no.
And to go back again, I don'twant to seem when I've always
thought myself as a team player.
Now did it.
And then this like my colleague, they were chosen to be the
interim director, not me and didthat hurt for like a minute?

(01:15:02):
Yeah, of course it did.
I was just like oh shit, likewow, they really fucking hate my
guts.
And but what that meant, though, was no, we are here for you.
I was like no, we're going to.
I like, if that is their time toshine as much as possible, then
me and the other manager thatwas there, who was on my team

(01:15:23):
previously, like we are here tomake you look like a badass as
much as we can, and like thatwas the role that I was playing
and it just it wasn't my timeand that's.
That's completely fine, and I'mnot going to be kind of like the
type of person like that wouldlook like shit.
So then it makes me look like abadass, like that's not what
I'm here for.

(01:15:43):
We're all here to make eachother look great as much as we
can, and to build each other up,and like you're, you're selling
ourselves still, and if I justI wasn't here for any kind of
like vindictive, or or, or, toperpetuate his kind of

(01:16:07):
negativity towards us, like well, we're all fucked, I guess.
Like no, no, and besides, Iappreciate, in a way I liked the
challenge to basically provehim wrong and I mean again, like
I said a lot earlier, I mean I,I could be pretty stubborn, I
was just like I want to be, ifnot more stubborn than he was,

(01:16:31):
and it was.
It was a lot to prove daddywrong.
So what happened?

Speaker 1 (01:16:39):
I mean this situation .
It sounds like you were kind ofstuck.
Yeah, there's not really asuccessful so I was not looking
to leave.

Speaker 2 (01:16:49):
I liked the company a lot, I liked the people that I
worked with, I believed in theproduct a lot.
I I loved every facet of it,except for working.
And I wasn't looking.
Now, when you're in leadership,and if you've been leading a
certain and I'm talking aboutjust sales specifically if

(01:17:13):
you're, if you're leading a likea specific part of a sales
organization for a number ofyears yet spoiler companies,
your, your managers, are gettinghit up by recruiters like left
to right, and I would care ifthey're like that good or if
they're great.
I mean, they're just gettinghit up.
And so I was costly being hitup by recruiters and I was

(01:17:36):
turned away.
I was like, no, I'm going toprove daddy wrong and I'm going
to continue to do this.
But then there is something thatfinally broke the straw, that
broke the cams back with.
Just like how intense theSierra was doing in my my you
know work-life balance was offkilter like crazy and I was

(01:18:00):
pretty low and just really,really struggling to build
myself up still and also keepoptimistic.
For the rest of the team too.
It was just, it's just hot.
So this company reached out tome and it was definitely in an
in an industry, one finally outout of the industry.
I've been working, you know,with the past like basically six

(01:18:20):
years at that point, and thento an industry that I was really
interested in, which was salesenablement and sales engagement
tools for SaaS, and I was like,oh okay, and they, we talked.
Also, by the way, if you'reremote, it's way easier to apply

(01:18:40):
interview than having to figureout like, yeah, I have to get
enough time, I have to go to myautomatress for three hours to
interview face to face.
So it was.
It was kind of the right placeat the right time.
It tickled this, this interestthat I've had for a number of
years.

(01:19:00):
Now I've had a few of mycolleagues and mentors go into
that industry as like this isreally cool service and product.
I like the people that I'mtalking to, and it was all very
quick and I mean seriously, fromsoup to nuts it was.
Maybe it took like a week and ahalf and yeah, and so I was

(01:19:21):
like I'm doing this and so hey,and the funny thing was that the
director was still on maternityleave and I had to call them.
I was like I have to talk toyou and I told them that I was
leaving because I accept the joboffer, and so they understood.

(01:19:43):
But I was very, very clear.
But this I want to be explicithere I am not leaving because of
you, I'm not leaving because ofthe organization, product
people on the team, no one else.
I'm literally leaving onlybecause of the CRL.
I need you to know that.

(01:20:04):
That is it.
And at that point five other orfour or five other sales leaders
I'm talking like VP level, twoVP director, two directors and
another manager and maybeanother manager or something
like that they all left andcited him specifically why

(01:20:25):
they're leaving.
And so well, it was the fifthor sixth person doing that now
and it was funny, this guy.
He found out, of course, and Itold my colleagues first I
didn't tell the team just yetuntil, honestly, about a weekend
, until like two weeks, becauseI didn't want to slow anything

(01:20:47):
down.
I think it was like the end ofa month or a quarter or
something like that and he saidhe was going to call me to talk
to me about it.
He never did.
I didn't speak to him towardsthat last two weeks at all and I
don't know if he knew that.

(01:21:08):
I cited him specifically.
But during my exit interview Iwas also very explicit to HR and
it wasn't like.
I even said, look, this is nota thing about like it's either
him or me, and I'm like I doubtthat I could choose me.
That's crazy.
It brought him in to help sellthe damn company.
I was like, yeah, but what'shis face?

(01:21:30):
We should keep him.
I'm not going to do that.
But I said my concern is isthat I don't think I'll be the
last leader to leave because ofhim, and that's something that
you guys have to figure out.
That's all on me.
Anymore Can't do it.
And so the last day that I wasthere and it was very emotional

(01:21:52):
because I was very close with alot of my team members and other
two managers, just likeeveryone there, like we came
very close.
I mean, when you go through,like you know, I think that the
other thing that the pandemicalso showed us is like how close
you became with people becauseyou're all going through hell
and back and it's like you knowyou're going through the

(01:22:14):
trenches kind of shit.
You develop like special bondsyou will definitely not forget
You're, you know, professionaland sometimes even more than
that, to where you become likeactual friends, and it was.
It was a lot, it was veryemotional at the time and so,
like when leaving, I I justwanted to say like one last

(01:22:34):
goodbye via Zoom or whatever,and the whole team showed up.
I was just inviting my whateverthat I was managing at the time
and they all showed up and Ijust, like you know, I wanted to
say you know, this is not likegoodbye forever, like please
always reach out to me.
Do you ever have any questionsthat you just want to?
I don't care and you know, Ijust hope that you know, you two

(01:22:57):
are in fantastic hands with theother two managers and the
director that's still here.
It's like you guys are notgoing to fail because, like I, I
wouldn't feel 100% ready toleave if I knew that you guys
were not in good hands orwhatever.
And then they did somethingthat I was like, oh my God, I've
never felt this before.
Is that they all like saying,saying really nice things to me

(01:23:22):
and like what I had done forthem, but they all like had
posters that says, like we loveyou, like you know, break a leg,
good luck, all these kinds ofthings.
I was like what the fuck?
I I'd never experienced thatbefore and because I I really
wanted to change things for thatteam.

(01:23:47):
That was like they gave me thisopportunity to have a lot of
creative control over how todevelop this biz dev team and to
build it out and to take it tothe next step of where they
wanted it to go.
And I thought we did anadmirable job with the state of

(01:24:08):
the world that was in at thetime and we gave a lot to these
people that weren't.
We gave a lot of like trust inthem and and build up their
confidence.
And like I think I had like atleast like six or seven people
on my team get promoted with twoother roles.
Like I had one person that wasthey were amazing.

(01:24:29):
They went to become a marketingmanager and there was one
person that I convinced not togo and I because they were going
to leave and become a sales repsomewhere else Like I it was
the first time was like I don'tthink you should do this, I
think you need to stay here.
And I immediately went up to myother colleagues who were
overseeing the sales teams fullsales cycle teams Like you need

(01:24:53):
to hire this person right nowand they're now still with the
top sales reps on the companyand they're incredible and we
talk all the time still and itwas a very humbling experience
that I definitely never forgetand I have all the things.

Speaker 1 (01:25:12):
That's here the silver lining.
Yeah, sure, right.
So you were stuck with thistough situation.
Industry was decimated.
You started to really rebuildthe team, even though people
were departing pretty quicklyfor a lot of valid reasons.

(01:25:36):
New CRO comes in who is goingto make sure that the company
does extremely well or whateverthey sell themselves on?
And comes in and just really,like you said, bullet a China
shop, destroys the place, comesin and makes you re-interview

(01:25:56):
for your own job and asks yousome pretty bizarre questions
during this interview.
Mm-hmm, stuff that there's noway that HR would have
appreciated hearing.
You took it like a champ.
You were still down for thecause.
You decided to refocus andreally control what you could

(01:26:18):
control.
Yeah, that was the performanceof your team.
To a certain degree, you sawsuccess.
It helped that the timing ofthe market was starting to do
better.
The director that took overyour role goes on maternity
leave.
So then you're back to reallyhaving to deal with the CRO,
because now you're supportingthe interim directors, who
needed a ton of help justdealing with this monster of a

(01:26:41):
personality, yeah, as well asridiculous demands and
expectations, and it soundedlike you were just resigned to
going through this, until thisway out presented itself and you
found a new opportunity, onethat got you excited, which is
certainly something you deserve,and I'm so glad to hear one

(01:27:01):
that you got it.
Got this new opportunity.
You were able to get somethingthat you deserve, but you saw
firsthand the recognition andthe appreciation from the people
who you had served through yourentire time there.
I think that's such a great upand down.
Overall, it sounds like you wonin the end.

(01:27:24):
I could.

Speaker 2 (01:27:25):
Yeah, I do appreciate that.
I mean the whole my mindsetaround managing anyone really in
the end and leading them isthat I want them to be well,
hopefully by the time I'mfinished with them, well rounded

(01:27:46):
, individual to where that theycan proceed and most cases with
sales, dev or whatever followtheir sales career, whether that
be here or elsewhere.
Like we can't I'm realisticpeople will leave companies I
did but I want them to beprepared for anything and

(01:28:11):
knowing also what they want.
That's one of the things that Ithink that it's not talked
about enough.
With definitely that role it'slike you know have hopefully
start to develop an idea of,like what you want to do.
And I have a goal I want totake the next step in my

(01:28:31):
leadership position or role intomanaging managers and to a
director role, because I find itlike fascinating I don't think
that managers get a ton ofguidance as much as they need
and to develop them still,because I mean it doesn't stop.
It doesn't stop until you're.

(01:28:51):
I don't think it ever stops, buttell that to the CRO.
But they it was again veryhumbling to see it's like okay,
my efforts weren't in vain.
And I mean they could have justsaid, you know, like in that
movie Tombstone, towards the end, where like powers boost just

(01:29:14):
says all right, well, bye, theycould have just said that to me,
but like they didn't and I knewit was like not to say it's
like I made an impact here, butit's like, okay, I feel good.
I feel good with what I did,even though I had to go through

(01:29:35):
a lot of only first yearpersonal turmoil.
But I also didn't bring that tothem.
And because that's the otherthing too is like I've seen it
in the past, like when a manageris just getting shit on from
their leaders or whatever it is,they bring that to, like they
bring that home to their teammembers and just like it's like

(01:29:55):
you, motherfuckers, you need todo that.
And like they just liketreating like shit and like I
didn't want to do that, likethat's not fair and also that's
what you have to pull back.
You can't just you grant itLike yeah, you have to set goals
and expectations and put peopleon action plan.
It's you can't be like.

(01:30:16):
It's like you, piece of shit,you're not doing this.
I'm gonna have to make youre-evaluate for your job.
No, you don't do that and theyshowed that grace to me that I
hopefully showed to them and itwas it started like for how much
like the worst professionalexperience I was going through
with that CRL.

(01:30:36):
That moment right there showedme like maybe one top street
best experiences I've ever hadin my own professional career.

Speaker 1 (01:30:45):
Yeah, I think that's such a powerful moment,
especially someone who's in aleadership position, to have
those you are leading just showthat appreciation that you
specifically made the difference.
I think that's great.
Looking back on this entireexperience of yours, what would
you say were your top takeaways?

Speaker 2 (01:31:06):
Well, the I you know, even through all of the I want
to be as introspective and youknow, or reflect objectively as
much as possible, because I meanthere's a lot of subjective
view, even the way that I'mtelling this story about, like
you know, that Sierra was a digbag, but like I think that what

(01:31:34):
I did learn is to, no matter thesituation, I mean, really be as
firm as you can on settingexpectations of for your team
members, even through, like, thecraziest time that humanity was
going through at the time.
I mean you have to do it CauseI what I really thought about,

(01:32:01):
what, like even what KPI's arereally there for?
It's just the measurement tosuccess.
That's really what it'ssupposed to be.
It's not to be, like you know,hold your feet to the fire.
If you don't make a hundredcalls a day, we're gonna fire
you.
Like no, that's not what it is.

Speaker 1 (01:32:14):
There is actual, it's not the goal.

Speaker 2 (01:32:17):
It's supposed to be a specific science.
Okay, if you make 70 calls thatday, 70 calls a day, what it's
supposed to lead to is X numberof positive conversations that
you have, and then those Xnumber of positive conversations
lead to a meeting set for adiscovery call.
Same kind of idea of, like,again, forecasting for
accounting, and I really, if Ithought about it that way

(01:32:39):
initially which I don't think Idid, quite frankly then it would
have put hopefully I put in youa place to where the Sierra
wasn't completely horrible to meand we granted, we would have
probably lost more people, wewould have seen a lot more
attrition that way, quitefrankly.

(01:33:00):
But thing is, though, we wouldhave been at least in a
objectively better spot.
We would have had more of afoundation to where, yeah, even
though the world was on fire, atleast like, well, at least we
got cement to stand on.
But you know, that's what Ilearned from is that, even
through thick and thin, like,you need to have those

(01:33:22):
expectations in place, and it'skind of the idea again being
transparent and just coveringyour ass how, playing the game,
you gotta do that for yourself,and I wasn't holding myself
accountable for it as much as Iprobably should have and because
I think I assumed which wassaying sales.

(01:33:44):
I think I assume I had muchmore of a longer grace period
than I probably should have had,and that's on me.
But you know, I also assumedthat, even being a leader, that

(01:34:07):
your leadership would hopefullygive you some kind of mentorship
or guidance.
And like.
Franklin before and theaftermath.
You know that director, who wasa great person.
They were great and thedirector took over my role.
They were great, ed, and wewere being successful, but like

(01:34:28):
I was not getting the mentorshipor guidance to take even my own
steps, next steps into mycareer.
And plus, I also saw like theglass ceiling was like way
through my friggin' rick cage.
At that point I was just kindalike I'm not getting through
this and because the CRO hatesmy cutscene.
So there's a lot of things Ilearned objectively, but like I

(01:34:53):
don't think I would have changedany way that I felt about it
and how I was approaching myteam at the time.

Speaker 1 (01:35:03):
Well, like your original shotgun story, this
sounds like a new, very tough, ahard experience that you went
through.
That is now the threshold forpain that you know you can go
through, and I love, just ingeneral, how you're always
taking the responsibility tofind the good, find the lesson,
learn, find what you can controland capitalize on it, as well

(01:35:28):
as your thoughts on leadership.
Throughout the conversation,what's come through is that
you've got a very strong andnatural focus and approach to
leadership, one that certainlyresonates with me.
You know, a lot of things youwere sharing resonate with me
personally as far as my approachto leadership as well, and, at
the end of the day, I love thatyou're taking it on you to

(01:35:52):
understand what are the thingsthat you can do to make the
outcome best for everyoneinvolved.
And that's a team player,that's teamwork, that's what the
company should try to do.
That's gonna leave me on a sidetangent where I think, true
sales enablement is really donethrough company enablement.
Yeah, because it is the entirecompany coming together to make

(01:36:14):
all this stuff happen.
I would agree.
A lot of great takeaways.
I really appreciate your time.
I appreciate your vulnerabilityin sharing some of your
thoughts and perspectives aswell as such a frustrating story
, but one that I'm glad you wereable to come out on top of.

Speaker 2 (01:36:31):
So I appreciate you saying that.
I mean, I've told this story toa number of friends and
colleagues, and mainly friendswho are not in sales or in the
industry.
They're kind of just like oh mygosh.
And when I talk about withsales people or in sales

(01:36:52):
colleagues they it's usually thesame reaction.
It's like the hand over theoverhead kind of thing, or hand
like the face palm, just likegot them mighty, like they, you
know, when you're telling astory about, like you know, a
good sale that you had, theyjust like it's riveting.
And when you have it a bad sale, they're just like they're
right there with you, they'resharing the cup of coffee, just

(01:37:13):
like oh God, I know what you'retalking about.
And this stuff is like, oh myGod, that like that's how bad it
could be.
It's like, yeah, but you knowsaying that, the natural parts
of leadership or wherever.
I appreciate that I don't knowif I'm necessarily like a
natural leader.

(01:37:34):
It's just more about again,what I've learned from good
leadership and also from badleadership, basically what not
to do.
And I've taken those two thingsand molded into the you know my
natural personality that I haveand put it to where I think is
the best, not only for thecompany or like for the

(01:37:54):
individual, but for the company,and that's how I lead it,
because I always feel extremelygrateful that anyone has given
me an opportunity to work forthem ever.
So I was like, no, if you gotme, you got me.
Like I'm here for the long haul.
I'm not thinking about likewhat's the next step and how do
I?
I'm not thinking about that.
I'm here to win it as much asyou're investing in me.

Speaker 1 (01:38:20):
And that is exactly what I expect a natural born
leader to say so you're justproving my point.
Really appreciate your timetoday.
Thanks for joining, of course.
Thank you, man.
So much to unpack from thatconversation.
I expected us to talk aboutBizDev, which of course we did,
but I was surprised by how muchwe delved into leadership.

(01:38:44):
Bizdev cold calling, it's hard,it's very hard work.
It's okay to call that outinternally and externally and if
it's not working, be a part ofthe solution.
Don't just dismiss it as justdo it.
It's easy, it's your job.
Figure it out.
That's not gonna help.
That's not enablement and, likewe talked about on the show,

(01:39:05):
the best sales enablement iscompany enablement.
That's where you're helping thecompany and the company is
helping you.
Now, a good leader partnerswith their stakeholders to
enable them not to dictate tothem, and she's.
What a disaster story.
Let that be a lesson to alllistening.
A bad executive will destroy anorganization and, potentially,

(01:39:27):
the entire company.
I am not being dramatic.
People ruin companies all thetime, but no matter the
circumstance, it's always whatyou as the individual make of it
.
I love to just focus on what hecould control and how he could
become better as a result of it.
That's hard work, but it's hardwork that pays off in the end.
Now, before you go, take asecond to subscribe to the show.

(01:39:50):
Let us know how much thesestories resonate with you by
leaving us a rating and a reviewin Apple Podcast or Spotify or
any podcast player of yourchoice.
And share these lessons with acoworker or even a boss who's
going through it with you.
Who knows, maybe your story ofdisaster could be next Playtime.

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.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark

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the ups & downs in sales, business development, & executive leadership

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