October 13, 2024 • 23 mins
In this episode, I sit down with Hayden Baum to dive into the realities of life in musical theatre.
We talk about how to embrace the journey rather than chasing outcomes, the importance of pacing yourself in this demanding career, and how to shift from comparison to confidence.
Whether you’re just starting out or deep into audition season, this conversation will give you the tools to trust your unique path and enjoy every step of the way.
Tune in for some real talk and helpful insights!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
Hayden, thank you so much.
Thank you for having me.
I've wanted to do it for a longtime.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
I know, and oh my gosh.
I know this episode is going tobe so awesome just because we
really do get along and we'veworked together in multiple
different ways and I just thinkyou're such a wonderful person
but also so incredibly talented,and you have so much to share
both on and off the stage, as MrG would say, Just so we can get
(00:30):
into it.
Can you paint a picture for uswhat your journey so far has
been with musical theatre?
Speaker 2 (00:38):
So basically, I've been working for the past eight
years in professional musicaltheatre, going show to show,
hopping, show, jumping, whateveryou want to call it but before
then I had trained at WAPA.
I did the musical theatrecourse for three years and then
I'd done the ballet course for ayear before that, and I had
grown up in Canberra and I haddone amateur musicals and
(01:00):
full-time dance there as well.
So I did full-time there forabout three years, but, yeah,
within full-time dance there aswell.
So I did full-time there forabout three years, but, yeah,
within the industry.
I graduated 2016, went on tothe Korean tour of Cats with one
, taylor Scanlon.
in 2017 to Korea, did that, thencame back to Charlie and the
Chocolate Factory with TaylorScanlon and then COVID hit and
(01:22):
we went on to do COVID Cats tour, came back, did Mary Poppins
with Taylor Scanlon, and thenI've just finished on Chicago
there you go yeah oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
And there have been a few other things in there.
Yeah, no, absolutely.
And oh my gosh, just evensaying that back, I'm like how
do we do all of that, especiallylike COVID cats, and it
literally just feels like awhole nother lifetime ago.
But it actually really wasn'tthat long ago.
I know what was it like goingfrom Canberra to now, like just
(01:59):
finishing Chicago, like if youwere like back in Canberra, like
looking at yourself trainingand then Whopper and all that
stuff, would you believe?
Did you know that you weregonna definitely be in musicals?
Or if I was coming to you fromthe future to tell you, younger
self, oh, you're gonna be doingthis, like what?
Would you believe that?
Speaker 2 (02:20):
or I'm really blessed and thankful and I can't
believe that it has all workedout.
But I've always been supportedand we just closed Chicago in
Canberra.
It was a really big full circlemoment.
I just turned 30.
And to have all of my friendsand family and teachers from
dancing primary school, highschool all of my friends there
(02:43):
now have kids, so some of themwere able to bring their kids to
the show it's wild.
But I think, yeah, I alwaysknew that I was going to do this
and everybody else knew that Iwould do it.
So the fact that I have done itand I continue to do it, it's
really special and I feel reallyblessed and thankful that it
hasn't worked out, but it'sbecause of those people that
I've been able to do it that'sit, and we talk a lot about that
(03:07):
on this platform, about you.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Really, you can do it alone, but it's you don't.
It's so much harder.
I can't do it alone I can't doit, but both of us have really
looked for out for support andknowing that it's from that
support and the support networkand the people that are around
you that can actually help youget from A to B place.
And it's a great topic that wecan go into, because this whole
(03:31):
episode is basing around how dowe enjoy the journey, not chase
the outcome, especially foraspiring artists, when you're
just graduating and you're likeall you know is, or all you've
been taught is I just need tobook a show and everything else
doesn't matter, and so I guessthat desperation and chasing
(03:53):
that outcome really breeds a bitof anxiety and a bit of stress
into a lot of the people thatare listening in.
What's your kind of perspectiveon how to enjoy the moment?
Say, if you were justgraduating and you were doing
the auditions, you were doingthe do you're hustling, but
you're really just coming fromthat energy of chasing the
(04:13):
outcome.
Maybe do you want to just shareif there was any points in your
career that this has happenedfor you.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yeah, I had always been of that mindset and I think
that it was the dance training,because you work and you strive
, and you're at the ballet barand you're doing everything and
you're rehearsing all of thesenumbers over and over again and
more often than not, when you'reat dance school, you get that
one concert, or you get thematinee in the evening and
that's it, and you're leading upto that for six months, or you
(04:40):
go on and you do a competitionand you've got one shot in front
of that adjudicator to get yoursolo right, everything that
you've practiced, or your groupnumber right.
So I think that for me, goingthrough training and coming out
of that, I just had that oneoutcome mindset, because when
you're at uni as well, you'reperforming maybe eight, eight
(05:04):
performances of the show thatyou've rehearsed for five, five
weeks, or at what were, werehearsed for 10 weeks for our
mid-year.
So it was a long process for areally short amount of time,
yeah, but I think, having donethe eight show a week, you
realize, oh, I've got to keepthis going for probably a year.
And then you're you get to theend of a tour and you're 530 odd
(05:25):
shows in and it was in thefirst it was.
It's always in the first coupleof months that I go okay, it's
about pacing myself through this.
There's no big outcome at theend of it.
It's about consistently goingand flowing, and I think that's
just the way that I've had toreshape my mind with.
(05:47):
Outcomes is that, oh, I justhave to show up, I have to be
present and I have to enjoymyself, because it just makes it
so much easier to again keepflowing.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Absolutely, and I love that you mentioned the word
like pacing, because that'slike the last thing that we do
when we're in training, right?
Next thing we're not evencaring really about like how
we're doing it, we're just likedoing it, and that's something
that you don't really learn infull-time.
You don't learn how to pacebecause, like you said, we
either are doing competitionsand you're training for a year
(06:24):
on one solo to go and perform itonce, or at a few comps, and
that's it and then as well, withthat, that end of year,
showcase that it's so funny wetrain.
I'm like, oh my gosh, we liketrain.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
You actually train harder than you do in a musical
yeah, for like less of anoutcome yeah, I think as well,
though that training traininggives you the like pacing skill,
because you're normally, whenyou're training, you're going
there from really like eitherlate in the afternoon to late at
night, or early in the morningtill early in the evening.
(06:57):
That's so right.
Yeah, I think that kind of doesset you up to be able to do
those rehearsal weeks when youfirst start a show.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Yeah, I love that because I've actually never
thought as though that throughthat discipline and actually
showing up and doing it each day, that inherently you actually
are learning pacing.
I actually never thought of itlike that.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Yeah, I only just thought of it now.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Yeah, that's so true.
If you're someone listening inor watching it and you're
currently in full time, you justcome out of it know that you
already have the inherent skillsto be able to pace, and maybe
that's a good way to guidepeople that are just looking to
get into auditions and gettinginto a show.
That is about that long termcareer and it's not about that
(07:39):
short term win, because I feellike there are a lot of artists
coming into the industry nowthat are just literally super
stressed, super overwhelmedbecause there's so many things
happening right now and arefocused on nothing but just
getting in the gig, but thereare so many other things that
happen once you get there, andlearning how to pace and do
(07:59):
those sort of things are onlygoing to be of benefit, isn't it
?
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Yeah, and I think one thing that has come into my
life recently, if I can rememberit, it's that you don't have to
start from scratch every time.
Life has prepared you for this.
You actually, you takeeverything with you.
So a lot of the time whenyou're starting a new job you
think, oh, I don't know anything, I don't.
(08:23):
You might know a few people inthe cast, but you feel like
you're learning everything fromscratch.
But all of those years oftraining and previous jobs and
people you've met and havelearned from all of that is
within you to be able tocontinue on to the next job.
So I think that it's just thatmassive amount of trust within
yourself, trust within thecommunity and trust that life
(08:46):
has prepared you to be where youare right now.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Yes, I love that you brought up the word trust,
because that is something that Ifeel, like both of us.
Yeah, I guess many performersgo in and about, but even
recently it's been probably likethe main word of my year or
past two years.
It's just like remembering totrust that where you are is
(09:11):
where you're meant to be, andwhat's that kind of been like
for you the word, when you thinkabout the word trust in your
career.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
It's a big one, because I think that a lot of us
have this kind of impostersyndrome or a lot of us get
scared to ask questions or askfor help.
So I think that not only am Itrusting within myself to be
able to speak out or say,actually, I don't know in this
situation, or can I have somehelp on this, it's about knowing
(09:41):
that I can trust the grouparound me to ask the person next
to me, hey, can you go overthis with me?
Or going up to our associatechoreographer and saying, hey,
I'm not getting this step, canyou help me with this?
So it's just knowing thatyou're in a safe environment and
if you don't feel like you are,you can also open that up and
just trust that you're going tobe held and supported in that
(10:02):
moment, which you can be.
So does that?
Speaker 1 (10:05):
make sense?
Yes, absolutely, and I wasspeaking to Charlotte Page,
who's a swing, a new into theindustry and we're talking about
imposter syndrome and and aswell, with a little bit of, she
didn't realize how supportivethe actual musical theater world
is, because when we're trainingI'm sure you had similar
training that like it was once Iactually got into musicals I
(10:29):
realized what it really waswhereas when you're training you
, you put it on such a highpedestal of, oh my gosh, like
everyone that's in a show isjust like so up in another level
, and something that I foundreally awesome and I love
helping people when they'recoming into the industry is
actually how much support thereis, both from the creative team,
(10:51):
but ultimately everyone's justwanting you to do really well,
and there's a lot of.
I think it's getting a lotbetter.
I think we still have a longway to go as well, but would you
agree as well that the industryand where it is now it's
actually a much more supportiveenvironment than many people may
think when from training into?
Speaker 2 (11:09):
getting in Completely , and I think that it's because
we all have a common goal at theend of the day, because it's a
team, and that's the way I'vealways looked at it.
We're all a team together.
But I also think that it's moresupportive now because we're
not trying to compare each otherto each other.
Again, it's the common goal.
We're all individuals comingtogether to share things
(11:33):
together to create the bestoutcome.
Individuals coming together toshare things together to create
the best outcome.
So I think that's why theindustry has gotten better and
more supportive, because theyrealize that comparison is the
thief of everyone's joy, so it'sbetter to just all work
together.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Yeah, absolutely, and I love it as well.
I'm just taking words thatyou've passed on.
You mentioned comparison and Ilove that.
Once we're in the show, thatyou can okay, it's sometimes a
little bit easier because youknow that.
Okay, I've been booked for areason, everyone in here is here
for a reason and we're all youcan see around.
Is that diversity?
(12:08):
I'm okay, I'm this role becauseof this, but when, before going
into auditions because the mainpeople that are listening in
are aspiring artists or they'reauditioning, they actually
suffer quite a lot withcomparison.
Has there been parts of yourcareer that you've compared
yourself to people around you,and how did you work your way
through that?
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Completely, and it still happens every now and
again.
But the way that I get aroundit now is what's meant for me is
meant for me.
What's meant for me won't passme by.
So if I'm in an audition andI'm thinking, oh, look at that
person.
Oh, they're so good and I wishI could do that, I turn it
around and I go oh my gosh, lookat that person.
I hope they get it, because ifI get it, I'm going to get it,
(12:49):
but it they're gonna get it.
And that is so exciting towatch people be so amazing in an
audition room and just go.
This is what's meant for them.
That is so cool.
And then, if you do get it, atthe end of the, at the end of
the day, you go, oh, that's okay, great, but take the pressure
off yourself in that moment andagain realize what is meant for
(13:10):
you is meant for you and supportothers, lift other people up,
because then you'll rise withthem.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Yes absolutely.
And it's such a fine line,isn't it?
Because when you're in there,you're wanting it so badly.
It's only normal to compare andbe like, oh, what are they doing
?
But that quick shift in mindsetof actually putting yourself on
the outer and being like, lookhow amazing they are.
Shift in mindset of actuallyputting yourself on the outer
and being like, look how amazingthey are.
I also had a shift in mindsetwhen I started training, because
(13:38):
I started at Patrick's and oneof my first classes was with
Todd's and it was with nearly 40just guys and I couldn't like
basically eat the next daybecause my arms were so sore
from doing so many pushups and Ijust remember thinking there's
no way I'm going back they're somuch better than me, and I
remember having this shift inmindset of going they've got
(13:58):
there because they've donesomething and they've learned
something, and why not me?
let's go for it and actually usethe people around you.
If they are performing in a waythat is more impressive or that
is something that is making youfeel like you're not enough,
you can actually use that asfuel to be like they've got
there, actually like how amazing, and maybe I can chat to them.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
I'm like what are you ?
Speaker 1 (14:21):
doing, Because I truly believe that even
confidence everything is a skillthat can be learned and by
looking around you, instead ofhaving it as a mirror to what is
not working well for you, youcan actually use that as a tool
to be like, okay, that'sactually what I need to work on
and either chatting to them or,yeah, I feel like that's really
helpful.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
I had a fitness trainer when I first started
going to the gym.
Say to me everyone's got tostart somewhere.
Don't look at the other peoplelifting heavier weights and
think, oh, I've got to be upthere now because everybody's
got to start somewhere.
So don't compare yourself toother people.
Start where you start and workyour way up.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Aspire to things, that's great, but you just got
to start somewhere yes, that'sso true, everyone's going to
start somewhere and when Iactually been training and
teaching students in this insome of the programs I've been
training and teaching studentsin this in some of the programs
I've been running and somethingwith that is I actually it's a
really good tool to use becausewhen you're in an audition, you
(15:22):
feel like you're all there atthe one place at the one time,
but in fact, like everyone isthere, but on a completely
different timeline of theirtraining, a completely different
timeline of where they're atmentally, physically,
emotionally.
It just feels like you're allthere in that one place and
(15:42):
that's obviously that moment.
But I think that it's actuallyreally can allow a lot of us to
ease the pressure off, to belike they're there because of
what they've done A, b and C andI'm here for what I've been
doing.
And I actually use that eventoday to be like oh cool, let's
all just get together.
We're in the audition room,we're all doing, whether you're
just a fresh grad or you've beenhere for 20 years.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
It's a whole.
It's always a mixed bunch inauditions, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Yeah, I also think that bringing the energy into an
audition room not only whenyou're doing like combinations
or singing or whatever it's inthe in the foyer, where you're
like seeing everyone I love.
I don't love auditioning, but Ilove going to auditions to see
people that I know because now,and meeting new people and
seeing fresh people and evenrecently there were people that
(16:30):
I knew had just come straightout of WAPA and you can tell
when someone is fresh outbecause they may be a little bit
more nervous or they're doingthis for the first time.
So sitting there with his bookand like sitting next to me and
just shaking a little bit and Iturn over and I was just like I
love your shoes, it's so greatthat you're here, like you're
doing exactly what you're meantto do, and boosting up that
(16:50):
energy is one of the things Ilove to do at an audition.
It's just checking in withpeople.
Some people want to have theirseparate space, but I just think
that bringing not the vibes buta vibe is a really nice way to
get through auditions as well.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Yeah, and I'm so happy that you said that you
don't particularly loveauditioning, because I feel like
there are a lot and a lot ofpeople in the industry like
they're so stressful and Ihonestly believe, like we are
not designed to A do eight shows, but B to actually go into such
a high-pressured situation andjust do well, especially when
(17:27):
you're starting out.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
It's really weird.
It's weird to walk into a roomand have 12 people sitting on a
table and a pianist in thecorner and they're like just
stand on that X and show us whatyou got for the next three
minutes.
It's terrifying and weird andall you can do is try to connect
, try to center yourself and yougo.
This isn't what I do.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
I get to stand on a stage normally and perform for
all you people in the darkcoming back on like the main
topic of how to enjoy thejourney and not chase the
outcome like what would you say?
How could we help some studentsthink about that in terms of
auditioning, because a lot ofpeople listening in are in the
audition phase right now.
They're getting rejected, orthey're getting to the callbacks
(18:08):
and they're maybe not gettingthe outcome.
How can artists enjoy thatjourney of auditioning, even
though it's stressful and likewe just mentioned?
But is there ways that they canenjoy that process and not be
so hyper focused on chasing theoutcome of just getting into a
show right?
Speaker 2 (18:29):
knowing that it's fleeting as well.
This is a moment.
It's not to put the pressure onit, but it's gonna happen, so
why not enjoy it?
And it's another moment toperform.
It's a moment to share what youhave prepared, or your gift.
I like to have this like orb oflight for myself, so like my
(18:49):
hands are clasped and then I'lljust open everything out and
it's almost like all this lightis going out.
That's the way I think about it,but it's a moment to share, and
it's taken me a really longtime to get to that point,
because more often than not,you're just thinking about
everybody judging you in thismoment, but it's nothing to
prove and only to share.
So if you can go into thatmindset, when you go to audition
, when you go to class, when youdo anything, it's all meant to
(19:13):
be enjoyed, we're all meant tobe having fun.
So I think that's the best wayto enter into it, because if you
get the outcome of booking ashow after that's exciting in
itself, and then you get to dothe work, and if you can remind
yourself to have fun along theentire time, that's what's going
to be best yeah, I think that'slike a motive for life as well.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Oh, completely anytime that, because actually
that allows you.
When you're bringing fun andcuriosity into life, you
actually make the pressure of itso much less.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
And I think it gains you a bit more perspective
because I really love doing thatis getting perspective on.
It actually allows you to stepback, as though you're getting
like a bird's eye view of yourlife in the moment.
Yes, it's a high pressuredsituation auditioning, even
performing but if you just stepback as though you're like
pulling your head away from it alittle bit and go what am I
(20:07):
actually?
what are we actually doing here?
Am I actually in danger?
Because that's what's happeningin the body when we're actually
putting ourselves in asituation that we don't really
know what the outcome is goingto be.
Automatically our body goesinto this Fight or flight yeah,
(20:28):
fight or flight moment and justallowing yourself to step back
and go.
What are we actually doing here?
And it could be.
For example, I remember doing arecent audition at dance world
and right there in melbourne,across the street, like one
street away, is where my momlives and I'm like oh, the other
week I was literally justwalking through here having a
coffee and a walk with my mum.
Like allowing yourself toactually pull yourself away and
be like oh, I'm actually not ina stressful situation, I'm just
(20:50):
going to have fun, I'm going tojust enjoy the moment.
If I stuff up like I remembereven going into some auditions
and not getting the high notesand I literally was like oh,
good morning.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Yeah, because it was 9am.
Yeah, completely, and the panel.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
All laughed, and the panel all laughed.
But by having that kind of funand letting things go a little
bit more, releasing that chaseenergy, I think it actually
allows you to do a lot betterbecause you're not so gripped by
you have to do so well.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Yeah, completely.
And I think that's what harksback to me being in the foyer at
an audition and chatting topeople I know, or seeing people
or trying to.
It's a way that I probably amtrying to calm myself because it
just makes me feel a bit moreat ease.
Because then I realise I'm justhere with.
I'm here with my friends, I'mlooking at a panel of people
(21:43):
that I know in some capacity.
They're not scary, they're justpeople, they're people I may
know.
So, again, in that moment, justsharing with the people I know
it's calming, it's fun, it'snice, it's enjoyable.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
It's nice, it's different, it's unusual, it's
nice, it's different, it'sunusual, it's nice, it's
different, it's unusual.
I've loved talking to you todayand it's just so wonderful to
have you.
I feel like we covered so manydifferent things from gosh,
getting that discipline, fromyour training, learning how to
actually pace you actuallyalready know and I actually
really love that, because whenyou are going into the industry
and you're auditioning, you feellike you're so far away from
(22:20):
industry experts.
But I always teach and helppeople to realize like what
you've learned right now in yourtraining has actually given you
all the tools that you possiblyneed to start having an
industry and to start getting inthe industry, rather and you
know actually performing theshows.
I feel like we learned so muchof that.
So I love that you've spokeabout that and how we've
(22:41):
actually, from that discipline,you've actually learned a lot
about pacing.
I really loved you mentioningyou don't have to start from
scratch again.
That is so important to learnthat we're actually always
evolving, we're always learning,always growing, and to just
come into each experience withthat.
And also, yeah, I think wespoke about lots of things Trust
(23:02):
.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
We did.
It's all there.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
It's all there.
It's all there, so it'swonderful to have spoken with
you, and I'll make sure to addyour Instagram to the show notes
as well, if people want toconnect with you and follow your
journey.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Yeah, thank you so much for being on.
Thanks Toto.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
All right, we'll see you soon.
All right, bye.
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
Hayden, thank you so much.
Thank you for having me.
I've wanted to do it for a longtime.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
I know, and oh my gosh.
I know this episode is going tobe so awesome just because we
really do get along and we'veworked together in multiple
different ways and I just thinkyou're such a wonderful person
but also so incredibly talented,and you have so much to share
both on and off the stage, as MrG would say, Just so we can get
(00:30):
into it.
Can you paint a picture for uswhat your journey so far has
been with musical theatre?
Speaker 2 (00:38):
So basically, I've been working for the past eight
years in professional musicaltheatre, going show to show,
hopping, show, jumping, whateveryou want to call it but before
then I had trained at WAPA.
I did the musical theatrecourse for three years and then
I'd done the ballet course for ayear before that, and I had
grown up in Canberra and I haddone amateur musicals and
(01:00):
full-time dance there as well.
So I did full-time there forabout three years, but, yeah,
within full-time dance there aswell.
So I did full-time there forabout three years, but, yeah,
within the industry.
I graduated 2016, went on tothe Korean tour of Cats with one
, taylor Scanlon.
in 2017 to Korea, did that, thencame back to Charlie and the
Chocolate Factory with TaylorScanlon and then COVID hit and
(01:22):
we went on to do COVID Cats tour, came back, did Mary Poppins
with Taylor Scanlon, and thenI've just finished on Chicago
there you go yeah oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
And there have been a few other things in there.
Yeah, no, absolutely.
And oh my gosh, just evensaying that back, I'm like how
do we do all of that, especiallylike COVID cats, and it
literally just feels like awhole nother lifetime ago.
But it actually really wasn'tthat long ago.
I know what was it like goingfrom Canberra to now, like just
(01:59):
finishing Chicago, like if youwere like back in Canberra, like
looking at yourself trainingand then Whopper and all that
stuff, would you believe?
Did you know that you weregonna definitely be in musicals?
Or if I was coming to you fromthe future to tell you, younger
self, oh, you're gonna be doingthis, like what?
Would you believe that?
Speaker 2 (02:20):
or I'm really blessed and thankful and I can't
believe that it has all workedout.
But I've always been supportedand we just closed Chicago in
Canberra.
It was a really big full circlemoment.
I just turned 30.
And to have all of my friendsand family and teachers from
dancing primary school, highschool all of my friends there
(02:43):
now have kids, so some of themwere able to bring their kids to
the show it's wild.
But I think, yeah, I alwaysknew that I was going to do this
and everybody else knew that Iwould do it.
So the fact that I have done itand I continue to do it, it's
really special and I feel reallyblessed and thankful that it
hasn't worked out, but it'sbecause of those people that
I've been able to do it that'sit, and we talk a lot about that
(03:07):
on this platform, about you.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Really, you can do it alone, but it's you don't.
It's so much harder.
I can't do it alone I can't doit, but both of us have really
looked for out for support andknowing that it's from that
support and the support networkand the people that are around
you that can actually help youget from A to B place.
And it's a great topic that wecan go into, because this whole
(03:31):
episode is basing around how dowe enjoy the journey, not chase
the outcome, especially foraspiring artists, when you're
just graduating and you're likeall you know is, or all you've
been taught is I just need tobook a show and everything else
doesn't matter, and so I guessthat desperation and chasing
(03:53):
that outcome really breeds a bitof anxiety and a bit of stress
into a lot of the people thatare listening in.
What's your kind of perspectiveon how to enjoy the moment?
Say, if you were justgraduating and you were doing
the auditions, you were doingthe do you're hustling, but
you're really just coming fromthat energy of chasing the
(04:13):
outcome.
Maybe do you want to just shareif there was any points in your
career that this has happenedfor you.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yeah, I had always been of that mindset and I think
that it was the dance training,because you work and you strive
, and you're at the ballet barand you're doing everything and
you're rehearsing all of thesenumbers over and over again and
more often than not, when you'reat dance school, you get that
one concert, or you get thematinee in the evening and
that's it, and you're leading upto that for six months, or you
(04:40):
go on and you do a competitionand you've got one shot in front
of that adjudicator to get yoursolo right, everything that
you've practiced, or your groupnumber right.
So I think that for me, goingthrough training and coming out
of that, I just had that oneoutcome mindset, because when
you're at uni as well, you'reperforming maybe eight, eight
(05:04):
performances of the show thatyou've rehearsed for five, five
weeks, or at what were, werehearsed for 10 weeks for our
mid-year.
So it was a long process for areally short amount of time,
yeah, but I think, having donethe eight show a week, you
realize, oh, I've got to keepthis going for probably a year.
And then you're you get to theend of a tour and you're 530 odd
(05:25):
shows in and it was in thefirst it was.
It's always in the first coupleof months that I go okay, it's
about pacing myself through this.
There's no big outcome at theend of it.
It's about consistently goingand flowing, and I think that's
just the way that I've had toreshape my mind with.
(05:47):
Outcomes is that, oh, I justhave to show up, I have to be
present and I have to enjoymyself, because it just makes it
so much easier to again keepflowing.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Absolutely, and I love that you mentioned the word
like pacing, because that'slike the last thing that we do
when we're in training, right?
Next thing we're not evencaring really about like how
we're doing it, we're just likedoing it, and that's something
that you don't really learn infull-time.
You don't learn how to pacebecause, like you said, we
either are doing competitionsand you're training for a year
(06:24):
on one solo to go and perform itonce, or at a few comps, and
that's it and then as well, withthat, that end of year,
showcase that it's so funny wetrain.
I'm like, oh my gosh, we liketrain.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
You actually train harder than you do in a musical
yeah, for like less of anoutcome yeah, I think as well,
though that training traininggives you the like pacing skill,
because you're normally, whenyou're training, you're going
there from really like eitherlate in the afternoon to late at
night, or early in the morningtill early in the evening.
(06:57):
That's so right.
Yeah, I think that kind of doesset you up to be able to do
those rehearsal weeks when youfirst start a show.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Yeah, I love that because I've actually never
thought as though that throughthat discipline and actually
showing up and doing it each day, that inherently you actually
are learning pacing.
I actually never thought of itlike that.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Yeah, I only just thought of it now.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Yeah, that's so true.
If you're someone listening inor watching it and you're
currently in full time, you justcome out of it know that you
already have the inherent skillsto be able to pace, and maybe
that's a good way to guidepeople that are just looking to
get into auditions and gettinginto a show.
That is about that long termcareer and it's not about that
(07:39):
short term win, because I feellike there are a lot of artists
coming into the industry nowthat are just literally super
stressed, super overwhelmedbecause there's so many things
happening right now and arefocused on nothing but just
getting in the gig, but thereare so many other things that
happen once you get there, andlearning how to pace and do
(07:59):
those sort of things are onlygoing to be of benefit, isn't it
?
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Yeah, and I think one thing that has come into my
life recently, if I can rememberit, it's that you don't have to
start from scratch every time.
Life has prepared you for this.
You actually, you takeeverything with you.
So a lot of the time whenyou're starting a new job you
think, oh, I don't know anything, I don't.
(08:23):
You might know a few people inthe cast, but you feel like
you're learning everything fromscratch.
But all of those years oftraining and previous jobs and
people you've met and havelearned from all of that is
within you to be able tocontinue on to the next job.
So I think that it's just thatmassive amount of trust within
yourself, trust within thecommunity and trust that life
(08:46):
has prepared you to be where youare right now.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Yes, I love that you brought up the word trust,
because that is something that Ifeel, like both of us.
Yeah, I guess many performersgo in and about, but even
recently it's been probably likethe main word of my year or
past two years.
It's just like remembering totrust that where you are is
(09:11):
where you're meant to be, andwhat's that kind of been like
for you the word, when you thinkabout the word trust in your
career.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
It's a big one, because I think that a lot of us
have this kind of impostersyndrome or a lot of us get
scared to ask questions or askfor help.
So I think that not only am Itrusting within myself to be
able to speak out or say,actually, I don't know in this
situation, or can I have somehelp on this, it's about knowing
(09:41):
that I can trust the grouparound me to ask the person next
to me, hey, can you go overthis with me?
Or going up to our associatechoreographer and saying, hey,
I'm not getting this step, canyou help me with this?
So it's just knowing thatyou're in a safe environment and
if you don't feel like you are,you can also open that up and
just trust that you're going tobe held and supported in that
(10:02):
moment, which you can be.
So does that?
Speaker 1 (10:05):
make sense?
Yes, absolutely, and I wasspeaking to Charlotte Page,
who's a swing, a new into theindustry and we're talking about
imposter syndrome and and aswell, with a little bit of, she
didn't realize how supportivethe actual musical theater world
is, because when we're trainingI'm sure you had similar
training that like it was once Iactually got into musicals I
(10:29):
realized what it really waswhereas when you're training you
, you put it on such a highpedestal of, oh my gosh, like
everyone that's in a show isjust like so up in another level
, and something that I foundreally awesome and I love
helping people when they'recoming into the industry is
actually how much support thereis, both from the creative team,
(10:51):
but ultimately everyone's justwanting you to do really well,
and there's a lot of.
I think it's getting a lotbetter.
I think we still have a longway to go as well, but would you
agree as well that the industryand where it is now it's
actually a much more supportiveenvironment than many people may
think when from training into?
Speaker 2 (11:09):
getting in Completely , and I think that it's because
we all have a common goal at theend of the day, because it's a
team, and that's the way I'vealways looked at it.
We're all a team together.
But I also think that it's moresupportive now because we're
not trying to compare each otherto each other.
Again, it's the common goal.
We're all individuals comingtogether to share things
(11:33):
together to create the bestoutcome.
Individuals coming together toshare things together to create
the best outcome.
So I think that's why theindustry has gotten better and
more supportive, because theyrealize that comparison is the
thief of everyone's joy, so it'sbetter to just all work
together.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Yeah, absolutely, and I love it as well.
I'm just taking words thatyou've passed on.
You mentioned comparison and Ilove that.
Once we're in the show, thatyou can okay, it's sometimes a
little bit easier because youknow that.
Okay, I've been booked for areason, everyone in here is here
for a reason and we're all youcan see around.
Is that diversity?
(12:08):
I'm okay, I'm this role becauseof this, but when, before going
into auditions because the mainpeople that are listening in
are aspiring artists or they'reauditioning, they actually
suffer quite a lot withcomparison.
Has there been parts of yourcareer that you've compared
yourself to people around you,and how did you work your way
through that?
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Completely, and it still happens every now and
again.
But the way that I get aroundit now is what's meant for me is
meant for me.
What's meant for me won't passme by.
So if I'm in an audition andI'm thinking, oh, look at that
person.
Oh, they're so good and I wishI could do that, I turn it
around and I go oh my gosh, lookat that person.
I hope they get it, because ifI get it, I'm going to get it,
(12:49):
but it they're gonna get it.
And that is so exciting towatch people be so amazing in an
audition room and just go.
This is what's meant for them.
That is so cool.
And then, if you do get it, atthe end of the, at the end of
the day, you go, oh, that's okay, great, but take the pressure
off yourself in that moment andagain realize what is meant for
(13:10):
you is meant for you and supportothers, lift other people up,
because then you'll rise withthem.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Yes absolutely.
And it's such a fine line,isn't it?
Because when you're in there,you're wanting it so badly.
It's only normal to compare andbe like, oh, what are they doing
?
But that quick shift in mindsetof actually putting yourself on
the outer and being like, lookhow amazing they are.
Shift in mindset of actuallyputting yourself on the outer
and being like, look how amazingthey are.
I also had a shift in mindsetwhen I started training, because
(13:38):
I started at Patrick's and oneof my first classes was with
Todd's and it was with nearly 40just guys and I couldn't like
basically eat the next daybecause my arms were so sore
from doing so many pushups and Ijust remember thinking there's
no way I'm going back they're somuch better than me, and I
remember having this shift inmindset of going they've got
(13:58):
there because they've donesomething and they've learned
something, and why not me?
let's go for it and actually usethe people around you.
If they are performing in a waythat is more impressive or that
is something that is making youfeel like you're not enough,
you can actually use that asfuel to be like they've got
there, actually like how amazing, and maybe I can chat to them.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
I'm like what are you ?
Speaker 1 (14:21):
doing, Because I truly believe that even
confidence everything is a skillthat can be learned and by
looking around you, instead ofhaving it as a mirror to what is
not working well for you, youcan actually use that as a tool
to be like, okay, that'sactually what I need to work on
and either chatting to them or,yeah, I feel like that's really
helpful.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
I had a fitness trainer when I first started
going to the gym.
Say to me everyone's got tostart somewhere.
Don't look at the other peoplelifting heavier weights and
think, oh, I've got to be upthere now because everybody's
got to start somewhere.
So don't compare yourself toother people.
Start where you start and workyour way up.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Aspire to things, that's great, but you just got
to start somewhere yes, that'sso true, everyone's going to
start somewhere and when Iactually been training and
teaching students in this insome of the programs I've been
training and teaching studentsin this in some of the programs
I've been running and somethingwith that is I actually it's a
really good tool to use becausewhen you're in an audition, you
(15:22):
feel like you're all there atthe one place at the one time,
but in fact, like everyone isthere, but on a completely
different timeline of theirtraining, a completely different
timeline of where they're atmentally, physically,
emotionally.
It just feels like you're allthere in that one place and
(15:42):
that's obviously that moment.
But I think that it's actuallyreally can allow a lot of us to
ease the pressure off, to belike they're there because of
what they've done A, b and C andI'm here for what I've been
doing.
And I actually use that eventoday to be like oh cool, let's
all just get together.
We're in the audition room,we're all doing, whether you're
just a fresh grad or you've beenhere for 20 years.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
It's a whole.
It's always a mixed bunch inauditions, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Yeah, I also think that bringing the energy into an
audition room not only whenyou're doing like combinations
or singing or whatever it's inthe in the foyer, where you're
like seeing everyone I love.
I don't love auditioning, but Ilove going to auditions to see
people that I know because now,and meeting new people and
seeing fresh people and evenrecently there were people that
(16:30):
I knew had just come straightout of WAPA and you can tell
when someone is fresh outbecause they may be a little bit
more nervous or they're doingthis for the first time.
So sitting there with his bookand like sitting next to me and
just shaking a little bit and Iturn over and I was just like I
love your shoes, it's so greatthat you're here, like you're
doing exactly what you're meantto do, and boosting up that
(16:50):
energy is one of the things Ilove to do at an audition.
It's just checking in withpeople.
Some people want to have theirseparate space, but I just think
that bringing not the vibes buta vibe is a really nice way to
get through auditions as well.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Yeah, and I'm so happy that you said that you
don't particularly loveauditioning, because I feel like
there are a lot and a lot ofpeople in the industry like
they're so stressful and Ihonestly believe, like we are
not designed to A do eight shows, but B to actually go into such
a high-pressured situation andjust do well, especially when
(17:27):
you're starting out.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
It's really weird.
It's weird to walk into a roomand have 12 people sitting on a
table and a pianist in thecorner and they're like just
stand on that X and show us whatyou got for the next three
minutes.
It's terrifying and weird andall you can do is try to connect
, try to center yourself and yougo.
This isn't what I do.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
I get to stand on a stage normally and perform for
all you people in the darkcoming back on like the main
topic of how to enjoy thejourney and not chase the
outcome like what would you say?
How could we help some studentsthink about that in terms of
auditioning, because a lot ofpeople listening in are in the
audition phase right now.
They're getting rejected, orthey're getting to the callbacks
(18:08):
and they're maybe not gettingthe outcome.
How can artists enjoy thatjourney of auditioning, even
though it's stressful and likewe just mentioned?
But is there ways that they canenjoy that process and not be
so hyper focused on chasing theoutcome of just getting into a
show right?
Speaker 2 (18:29):
knowing that it's fleeting as well.
This is a moment.
It's not to put the pressure onit, but it's gonna happen, so
why not enjoy it?
And it's another moment toperform.
It's a moment to share what youhave prepared, or your gift.
I like to have this like orb oflight for myself, so like my
(18:49):
hands are clasped and then I'lljust open everything out and
it's almost like all this lightis going out.
That's the way I think about it,but it's a moment to share, and
it's taken me a really longtime to get to that point,
because more often than not,you're just thinking about
everybody judging you in thismoment, but it's nothing to
prove and only to share.
So if you can go into thatmindset, when you go to audition
, when you go to class, when youdo anything, it's all meant to
(19:13):
be enjoyed, we're all meant tobe having fun.
So I think that's the best wayto enter into it, because if you
get the outcome of booking ashow after that's exciting in
itself, and then you get to dothe work, and if you can remind
yourself to have fun along theentire time, that's what's going
to be best yeah, I think that'slike a motive for life as well.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Oh, completely anytime that, because actually
that allows you.
When you're bringing fun andcuriosity into life, you
actually make the pressure of itso much less.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
And I think it gains you a bit more perspective
because I really love doing thatis getting perspective on.
It actually allows you to stepback, as though you're getting
like a bird's eye view of yourlife in the moment.
Yes, it's a high pressuredsituation auditioning, even
performing but if you just stepback as though you're like
pulling your head away from it alittle bit and go what am I
(20:07):
actually?
what are we actually doing here?
Am I actually in danger?
Because that's what's happeningin the body when we're actually
putting ourselves in asituation that we don't really
know what the outcome is goingto be.
Automatically our body goesinto this Fight or flight yeah,
(20:28):
fight or flight moment and justallowing yourself to step back
and go.
What are we actually doing here?
And it could be.
For example, I remember doing arecent audition at dance world
and right there in melbourne,across the street, like one
street away, is where my momlives and I'm like oh, the other
week I was literally justwalking through here having a
coffee and a walk with my mum.
Like allowing yourself toactually pull yourself away and
be like oh, I'm actually not ina stressful situation, I'm just
(20:50):
going to have fun, I'm going tojust enjoy the moment.
If I stuff up like I remembereven going into some auditions
and not getting the high notesand I literally was like oh,
good morning.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Yeah, because it was 9am.
Yeah, completely, and the panel.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
All laughed, and the panel all laughed.
But by having that kind of funand letting things go a little
bit more, releasing that chaseenergy, I think it actually
allows you to do a lot betterbecause you're not so gripped by
you have to do so well.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Yeah, completely.
And I think that's what harksback to me being in the foyer at
an audition and chatting topeople I know, or seeing people
or trying to.
It's a way that I probably amtrying to calm myself because it
just makes me feel a bit moreat ease.
Because then I realise I'm justhere with.
I'm here with my friends, I'mlooking at a panel of people
(21:43):
that I know in some capacity.
They're not scary, they're justpeople, they're people I may
know.
So, again, in that moment, justsharing with the people I know
it's calming, it's fun, it'snice, it's enjoyable.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
It's nice, it's different, it's unusual, it's
nice, it's different, it'sunusual, it's nice, it's
different, it's unusual.
I've loved talking to you todayand it's just so wonderful to
have you.
I feel like we covered so manydifferent things from gosh,
getting that discipline, fromyour training, learning how to
actually pace you actuallyalready know and I actually
really love that, because whenyou are going into the industry
and you're auditioning, you feellike you're so far away from
(22:20):
industry experts.
But I always teach and helppeople to realize like what
you've learned right now in yourtraining has actually given you
all the tools that you possiblyneed to start having an
industry and to start getting inthe industry, rather and you
know actually performing theshows.
I feel like we learned so muchof that.
So I love that you've spokeabout that and how we've
(22:41):
actually, from that discipline,you've actually learned a lot
about pacing.
I really loved you mentioningyou don't have to start from
scratch again.
That is so important to learnthat we're actually always
evolving, we're always learning,always growing, and to just
come into each experience withthat.
And also, yeah, I think wespoke about lots of things Trust
(23:02):
.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
We did.
It's all there.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
It's all there.
It's all there, so it'swonderful to have spoken with
you, and I'll make sure to addyour Instagram to the show notes
as well, if people want toconnect with you and follow your
journey.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Yeah, thank you so much for being on.
Thanks Toto.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
All right, we'll see you soon.
All right, bye.
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