November 1, 2024 • 50 mins
What happens when traditional courtroom attire takes a backseat to personal comfort, and a respected judge becomes a beloved TV personality? Join us as we explore the fascinating journey of Judge Lynn Toler, renowned for her roles on Divorce Court and Marriage Boot Camp. Judge Lynn shares her unconventional path from being an elected judge in Ohio to embracing the vibrant lifestyle changes in Mesa, Arizona. Her story not only highlights how personal choices shape professional paths but also offers insights into marriage, mental health, and the societal pressures we all face.
In a world where mental health and the justice system often clash, Judge Lynn brings to light the critical challenges first responders and the legal community face in addressing mental health crises. Through personal narratives and real-life cases, we uncover the disparities between mental and physical health emergencies, illustrating the urgent need for systemic change. We delve into Judge Lynn's path from Ivy League dreams to her impactful career in law and television, showcasing the diverse avenues life can take. Judge Lynn also opens up about the effects of COVID-19 on societal interactions, emphasizing the role of isolation and social media in altering our communication landscapes.
Ever wonder how the dynamics of family life and relationships play out in the everyday grind? Experience the humor and resilience in Judge Lynn's anecdotes about juggling family chaos and the quirks of long-term relationships. With wit and wisdom, she introduces the concept of a "worry book" as an effective tool to navigate anxiety and obsessive thoughts. Plus, she offers a sneak peek into her new podcast, "Feeling on Purpose," which is designed to help listeners harness their emotions for personal growth and deeper connections. Join us for an episode rich with laughter, reflections, and valuable guidance from Judge Lynn's storied career and personal experiences.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
to start this podcast .
Um, we call it right now thedoctor and the dj, and we've had
a few guests, but we have adifferent guest today which
doesn't necessarily fit thedoctor and the dj.
And we've had a few guests, butwe have a different guest today
which doesn't necessarily fitthe doctor and the dj mold, or
maybe it does.
Um, and I I want to make sure Iintroduce you correctly, so
because I I'm afraid don't beafraid so do we say honorable?
do you say because I heard youknow one of the guys who runs
(00:39):
our podcast call you lynn and Iwas like whoa hey, whoa, lynn
toller.
Your honor, lynn toller.
Honorable most people now youshould call call you Lynn.
And I was like whoa hey, whoa,lynn Toler.
Your Honor, lynn Toler.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Honorable.
Now you should call me Lynn.
Most people know me as JudgeLynn.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Judge Lynn.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
But that's the known moniker, like Judge Judy, once
Jay and Judge Judy got together,every judge is now known by
their first names.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Judge Lynn.
So we call you Judge Lynn.
Yeah, divorce court, divorcecourt, marriage boot camp.
That's how you judge Lynn.
Yeah, because you've been atdivorce court.
Divorce court, marriage bootcamp, marriage boot camp.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
I mean, your resume is pretty ridiculous when it
comes to it's long.
Yeah, it's not.
Whether it's good, I don't know, but it's long.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
You know I was on YouTube today.
I wanted to check out some oldepisodes.
So I go to YouTube and there'slike I don't know, and the day
before it's not.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
They repost them all the time.
Now I was on for 14 years.
Now somebody else is on it, butthey repost them all because
they're evergreen.
It's always your relationship.
Why are you and Bob not gettingalong?
What are we fighting about?
It's a divorce court.
It's really just a relationshipshow with a robe, you know,
(01:41):
because it's about healthyrelationships and it got to the
point where people would come,didn't want a divorce or didn't
want to litigate anything.
They came to get advice.
So we started doing before yourvows and save my marriages,
because I was good at assessingthe dysfunction and being able
(02:05):
to craft some kind of solution,even if that solution is get a
butt ticket and run, you knowWow.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Well, when you're behind the bench, do you sit
like that?
Oh, I got no shoes on.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Oh, I have all kinds of stuff.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
Everything under the robe.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Just, oh man, yeah, I never wear shoes.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
For real when you're on court, even like in real
court, not TV court.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Real court.
I stopped wearing shoes too.
I stopped wearing the robe tooafter a while In the beginning,
because I was elected judge in1994, so I looked like I was
about 12.
And I was 30, 31, 32.
No, I wasn't, I don't know.
I was 33.
31, 32.
No, I wasn't.
I don't need it.
I was 33, and I had to wear therobe and do all that kind of
(02:49):
stuff because no one believed it.
It just didn't make any sense.
But after a while, and once Ihad a reputation, you know, the
trappings weren't important tome anymore.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
So people come to court and you just be like
wearing that.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
I had no shoes on.
Now they couldn't see mebecause I could round that
corner real quick.
But they could see I didn'thave a robe on, I didn't care.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
I thought you'd be wearing a robe today, oh, yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
You came out and Now you know that was originally a
male-dominated profession,because we would have known
better than to make somethingthat ugly.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Or at least that gray wig that we see in the English
shows.
You're right.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
We have the same thing, that you see me at
Benicera all the time.
And, of course, as a doctor,you know everybody walks around
in their white coats and I, forthe last 15 years, have never
worn a white coat.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
You did last week, you remember I go what's with
the coat?
Speaker 3 (03:43):
And I said said.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
You said I'm a doctor .
No, I said I'm cold, that'sright.
You said I'm cold and there wasno other jacket in the building
for me to wear, but I don't.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
I don't wear it either, because I don't think
you need to.
I mean people we carry ourpresence.
We don't need a certain youknow stigmata around us to let
people know who we are, so I dothe same thing so, judge Lynn,
how do you go from divorce court?
Speaker 1 (04:06):
go to school at Harvard?
How do you end up in Mesa,arizona?
Speaker 2 (04:10):
oh, what happened was I was.
You know, I was a judge in Ohiowhen I first went, when I was
doing the judge thing in thecriminal court.
I got the judge, I got the thejob out in LA and I commuted for
two years and then the commutegot ugly but I wasn't gonna pay
Los Angeles prices for nothing.
And after leaving Cleveland Imean Phoenix almost gave me a
(04:32):
heart attack with the prices,but so I came.
I would was gonna live eitherhere or Vegas, because I needed
a one-hour flight to the gig, soI just flew out, picked a place
in Mesa and we moved.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Wow, so how long have you been in Arizona?
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Since 07.
Oh wow, a long time.
Oh, so you're a zoney Almost,because there are very few
natives out here, very fewnatives.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Well, one of the things we want to talk about
right was like because right nowwe've got that health vibe, we
want to talk about marriages,mental health, stress, anxiety,
how much it plays into theeveryday medical community.
Also, I like that off air here.
We kind of popped up theelection anxiety.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
There's a lot of that going on.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
It's the time of the year and the thing I want the
thing is, that's my thing ismental health should always be a
part of the health conversation.
And you know we have a societywhere, you know, mr Williams
killed Ms Kellerman at Taco Bellin Stowe Ohio because he was
(05:42):
upset in Stowe Ohio because hewas upset.
We're in a position where ouremotionality is so surface and
it is so extreme.
With all of the social media,it's becoming a real problem for
us to manage our feelings.
I think you know how you'resupposed to go to the physical
doctor every year.
(06:02):
I think you should go to apsychiatrist every year or a
counselor every year.
Everybody just say, hey, what'shappening in there?
Is there a problem?
Is something ticking a littleslow?
Is it ticking too fast?
There's nothing wrong withhaving a gear wobbling, as long
as you know which one it is andwhat to do when it starts to go.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
You know.
Speaking of that, I'm justcurious about in your career of
being a judge and a lawyer, arethere any cases like if you're
going to bed, let's say it'snine o'clock at night and you're
going to bed, you're byyourself and you're just
thinking about stuff.
Are there any terrible cases?
Just pop in your head, you go,you remember this, this one.
I can't believe that happened.
I saw this person crying incourt.
Is there anything that juststicks with you from your past?
Speaker 2 (06:43):
I remember having this dude in court on a murder
charge.
He killed his girlfriend, no,he killed his mother.
And his girlfriend talked himinto it and the girlfriend was
there and she was talking to meand I could tell that she's just
very manipulative, just very,very manipulative.
(07:08):
And she had said somethingabout being pregnant at the time
and I'm saying well, you know,you've got a lot of problems.
You know, I don't want to hearabout that right now.
We're doing this, we're doingthat Because she was charged
with something minor he wascharged with.
And she came back before me andI can't remember why and she
said I got the abortion, likeyou told me to whoa, just
(07:32):
because I said you know said itto you first thing she said to
me and that's six with you yeah,I mean not that she did it, but
she was doing that to that dudeand got him to kill his mother.
This is how she runs her life is.
She runs around, she gets intopeople's feelings and makes them
(07:55):
do stuff To me.
I was just.
I was floored by thatpersonality though I am not
anymore and I just found itextraordinary extraordinary.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
But but he was on trial, she wasn't right he?
Speaker 2 (08:10):
yeah, he was.
I was just doing a preliminaryhearing to kick him up to the
another court oh, so you hadsmall charges.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
He had a big charge, but you when you hear all that,
you can't do anything.
When you see something likethat and you can't go, you're in
contempt or you're whatever.
You can't, you can't throw anypower to the person.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
That's not being no no, I mean if they act up in
there.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
But how screwed up you gotta be to kill your mom
and have your girlfriend talkyou into it yeah, there's a lot
of that.
I know, man, was she a bad mom?
This?
Speaker 3 (08:41):
kind of goes right back to what you were saying
earlier about.
You know you have your annualphysical checkup.
We need an annual mentalcheckup.
But to do that we've got tochange our system because we do
not have enough providers.
We do not have adequate accessto mental health in our country.
We had Dr Shulay on a littlewhile ago, who's a
(09:02):
board-certified psychiatrist whoreally speaks to these things
as well.
It's just, it's a nearimpossible task to meet the
needs of the community and Ithink a lot of it does fall on
the medical providers to be thatsomewhat in between mental
health provider sometimes andthey're stressed to find the
amount of time to listenappropriately.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Yeah, and I think that insurance has something to
do with it too, because of thelack of parity.
You know you break your foot,but you're not feeling too well
in the head whether or not youknow what they're going to cover
.
It's always more difficult toget it covered, and when I was a
judge in Cleveland, I saw somany people who were mentally
ill were in there because theywere mentally ill.
(09:42):
You know, if you have a heartattack and fall down and a bus
has to stop, they take you to ahospital.
If you're having a psychoticepisode and you sit down in the
middle of the street and do that, they take you to jail, Right.
And what I was trying to do wasget a first responders mental
(10:03):
health team for all the localcourts, Because if you were in
the major court, they had awhole floor just dedicated to
the mentally ill, but we had noresources and I would have
people come in.
I'll never forget this guybecause he came over to the
house to thank me and I was gone.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
He came to your house .
Speaker 2 (10:24):
No, the family member .
What happened was there was awhole family there, one family
member, and he was crazy Ishouldn't say crazy, I call
myself crazy all the time.
He was disturbed, he wasdisturbed, he had mental health
issues and he couldn't affordhis meds.
You know, this is back in the1990s and they just didn't have
(10:44):
any.
And he goes can you put me incounty jail?
Don't put me in city jail, putme in county jail.
Max me out so they will med meup, because in county jail they
will pay for your meds.
And his family member came andthanked me for it because I put
him in jail longer than I shouldhave.
But he wanted to get right andI figured my job is to get
(11:05):
things as right as I can be andif he needed six months to get
right, that's what I was goingto do.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
So are you still a lawyer?
Like can you still practice?
Speaker 2 (11:14):
I kept my license up for years after I went on TV and
then I just I let it go so Icould go and start it back up by
taking all the continuing legaleducation.
If I did that, I could go andstart it back up by taking all
the continuing legal education.
If I did that, I could do it.
But right now my status is onhold.
I'm frozen, so what?
Speaker 1 (11:31):
was it like.
So you went to Harvard right.
Right.
Is that Harvard?
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Law, Harvard undergrad.
Wow Whoa man.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
So you're like really smart.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Oh, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Yeah, so what's that like?
Do you get a letter in the mail?
Speaker 2 (11:44):
I'm talking to a doctor.
Let me tell you what I did.
My parents told my sister and I, since we were this big, that
you're going to Ivy Leagueschools and you're going to be
physicians.
Now you can pick any Ivy Leagueschool you want, you can pick
any kind of physician you want,but that's what you two were
doing.
So my sister went off, toddledoff to Dartmouth.
(12:06):
She's a neurologist.
I went to Harvard.
I partied so hard, do you hearme?
I had to drop all the hardcourses, became an English major
and it was like my senior yeardaddy called and said yo, what
(12:27):
you doing?
And I said, uh, I don't know.
And he said if you don't go tograduate school because daddy
paid for it Dartmouth andHarvard if you don't go to
graduate school, you got to geta job.
I ran and took the LSAT, gotinto law school, went to Penn
(12:48):
Law.
Didn't go to class there, but Ididn't, wasn't a doctor.
But my sister who did go toclass, she is a board certified
neurologist.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
So I'm the family failure, but are you and your
sister close?
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Not really, oddly enough, no, she's only a year or
so ahead of me, but we werevery different people.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
I just knowing that your parents told you to go Ivy
League like I just can't imagineOur son.
We have an 18,.
We have three boys.
Our youngest is 18, and he gota letter, an email, that he got
into U of A and my wife startedcrying U of A.
And my wife started crying U ofA and I said to him because
he's got like a 4.0, I was like,just literally before knowing
we were going to talk to you, Iwas like, hey, you should apply
(13:30):
to Harvard and I can't imaginewhat that would be like to get
an acceptance letter to Harvard.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
I was in the bathtub and the reason I know I was in
the bathtub is because the theletter is wrinkled because I I
in early decision, so it wasright after.
It was like the only school Ihad applied to and I got so
excited I threw the letter up, Ijumped out of the tub and just
ran down the house and theletter was just bobbing in the
water.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Unbelievable.
Hey, are there celebrities thatyou've had to?
Any famous people you've had tobe a judge or a lawyer for?
Speaker 2 (14:05):
No, I've met some famous people.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
You could say that, could you?
It's not like a medical thing.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Well, I wouldn't tell if I had represented them, but
I wouldn't because I wasn't thatkind of lawyer.
You know what I mean.
I did corporate law before Idid criminal law as a judge, you
know.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
What about famous cases?
Criminal law as a judge, whatabout famous cases?
I mean, what got the attentionof divorce court people?
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Who knows.
I was on the bench one day andI got off and it was back in the
pink.
You know, while you were, whatfox called.
They want to know if you wantto be on tv and I never got a
straight answer of who did it,why they did it.
I know they had a.
They did have an article on mein the paper and what the
(14:51):
article was.
Some some uh reporter was bored,so he came in the court see
what was happening.
It just so happened that therewas a group of of black folk and
a group of Arabs, one all Arabs, all on one side.
The blacks were all on theother side.
There was a man on trial fordisorderly conduct because one
(15:16):
of the black kids went into theArab store and got a cookie bar,
and the whole neighborhoodturned out.
So instead of just adjudicatingthat guy, I said I'm not
interested in you.
I went down there and I saidlisten, what are you doing?
This lady gets up.
She's pregnant.
I said where are you going?
She says I'm smoking acigarette.
I said not on my watch.
(15:37):
Sit down and give that baby abreak.
And then I talked to everybodyabout what did you do?
So with your 35-year-old self.
You went over there and toldthat man now if an 11-year-old
had said what your son said tohim and by the time I was done,
I had everybody laughing and Ihad everybody feeling stupid.
And I said now the reason I didthis because I know you people
(16:01):
are going home and you live neareach other and you go to that
store.
So this has got to end.
Today he wrote a article aboutme nine months later when he
didn't have anything to do, andI think they might've seen that.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Okay, Cause you you're kind of known also for
some of your weird or differentpunishments.
Right, Weird is good, Weirdyeah.
Like what are some of thepunishments you gave people?
Speaker 2 (16:28):
I had a friend Judge Chicanetti was way better than
that than I do I used to makehim listen to the Barney song if
you had.
Oh, that's torture.
You know, remember too loudthump, thump, thump, thump In
people who drive, and drivenoises Six Hours of Barney.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
That was a punishment , uh-huh.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
I bet they never did it again.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
They didn't do it in Cleveland Heights.
Mostly what I did, though, is Irealized I was too little, too
late, and I would start groupsfor young men and young women to
kind of like redirect them,because they weren't emotionally
healthy.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
You know what I mean well, let's shift gears, to say
go fast forward to marriage bootcamp, marriage boot camp yeah,
I agree yeah, what?
Speaker 3 (17:24):
first off did you come up with the idea from
divorce court and seeing whatyou were able to do and help
people before they got to thatpoint and said wait a minute, we
need to back this up.
We need to hit a minute earliertime you didn't understand
something.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
I'm the world's biggest.
I fail up ass backwards all thetime.
I just someone got bored onMarriage Boot Camp.
There was a whole show.
It was introduced by thiscouple in Dallas and they did
one segment.
Oh, let's do a divorce courtsegment.
I went in there.
I did so well.
(17:57):
They said let's make her aregular.
And then when they fell outwith the, the originators of the
show me and another guy took itover.
So it was.
It was I was in the right placeat the right time and just fell
in it then what's the hip-hopone?
it's well.
We had marriage boot camp andwe used to have a couple people
from these kind of reality showsin this one, and then we
(18:17):
decided to have all hip hop.
You know all from the hip hopindustry.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Like who.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Oh, CeeLo Green and Soulja Boy and Waka.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Oh my God, Soulja Boy , tell them.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Waka Flocka.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Are you serious Like wait?
They're coming in for marriageboot camp.
Soulja Boy had a how to turnout with Soulja Boy.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
He listen.
He was so funny he used toalways like that to me when we
walked by.
He was hilarious.
He was just absolutely.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
They all were are these shows on YouTube right now
?
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Hip Hop Boot Camp, that's what it's called Hip Hop
Boot Camp.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
And what channel, what network, what app I don't
know.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
I always watch it on youtube was it uh?
Speaker 1 (19:04):
is it a while ago?
Yeah?
No, it's still there but you do, you still do it oh, no, no, a
lot of that stuff.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
You know, when covid came, that was a huge production
.
You would have a hundred peopleon set at any given time.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
It was just too hard, we just couldn't do it I think
when you bring up covid, that'sanother thing where a lot of the
mental health right peoplestarted mental health.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
It did right.
What do you think?
Speaker 1 (19:28):
what do you mean?
How so?
Speaker 2 (19:29):
I think it broke us.
I think we we lost the abilityto calibrate and regulate
ourselves out in the in thelarger community.
We got isolated.
We got what we want.
We got to drink it too much, wehad too much to eat, and then
we got isolated.
We got what we want.
We got to drinking too much, wehad too much to eat, and then
we got irritated.
And now we're all out here andnow that we're on social media
that you know you got rage bait,everybody's looking at that, so
(19:52):
everybody is amped up.
We got cortisol, adrenalineeverything is just rushing and
rolling all the time and we werehome.
Everything is just rushing androlling all the time.
And we were home and we just welost.
I think we lost a bit of ourability to regulate in company.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
We're all siloed now.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
You don't think exactly what I think and if you
don't think it at the same levelthat I think it, and if you
don't think at it, think aboutit quick enough.
I hate you.
I can't talk to you, you can'ttell me nothing and I won't deal
with you.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
That's where we are, I believe it's something we've
never seen before in society.
So we do not know how tonavigate this effectively and I
think a lot in the medicalcommunity right now we're trying
to deal with that because we'reon the front lines right the.
ER doctors are on the frontlines, the first responders are
on the front lines of a lot ofthis, and I don't think we've
been given the tools tounderstand how to help people
(20:55):
out of that.
And you know we're talkingabout marriage bootcamp.
I mean mean so much of thisinfighting that's happening
within the family unit.
You're talking about beingsiloed in your home, but then in
the home you've got a new levelof kind of dysregulation and
dysfunction amongst the peoplethere.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
um, we've got to, we've got to find a new way
around this, a new norm, right,better norm, right, right,
because the new norm is notworking and one of the thing and
the and the reason I got caughtup with the tyler and all of
this kind of stuff is we have tomake practicing our
emotionality a norm.
You know what I mean.
To practice.
I have to practice being, uh,secure.
(21:35):
I'm very nervous, I'm very shy,I'm I tense towards depression.
My mother thinks I'm bipolar.
My father was definitelybipolar.
All of his brothers werebipolar, so much so that none of
them did well, they just youknow.
So I didn't have the option ofnot managing myself emotionally
(21:57):
at all periods of time.
And my thing is, if I can takethis shy, reclusive chick and
turn her into somebody who doesthis for a living, everybody can
take who they are and make it acalmer, less excitable.
Everybody's that.
You know what I mean.
You can be better.
(22:19):
So there's no more of thisgetting shot at Taco Bell.
You know everybody talks mentalhealth after a shooting for
about a week.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
You're saying you're shy.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Extraordinarily, you would never know it.
Reclusive.
That's why my sister and Ididn't get along, because she
was very outgoing.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Wow, I mean I see you as extremely outgoing.
Not at all Because you're herewith cameras and you're on, but
when you go, if you're at thegrocery store you're yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
This is the first time I left the house this week.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
And my son had to drive me.
I don't like to drive.
I'm scared to drive.
I'm scared to fly.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
Do it.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Don't do it, don't like it, have to be driven to do
it.
I think it's very yes, I thinkit's very relatable what you're,
what you're saying, I feel verysimilar to to what you're
saying.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
So do normal things unnerve you?
Speaker 1 (23:11):
unnerve me or what does that unnerve me?
Like they nerve me if normalthings like like I don't want to
do anything oh well, there,well, there you go.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
Yeah, we're together.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Yeah, I like to stay home and not do it.
I don't like to go on vacation,I'd rather just stay home,
don't?
Speaker 3 (23:25):
want to go.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
But I do it because of my family, right?
Or I do it because I do a radioshow.
Like I do a radio show, I sitin a little room and gets sick
to my stomach me too.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Yeah, me too.
I never thought I just figuredsomeone got to deal with yeah
and yeah and it is and it's.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
You know it's like if I'm at a concert and they're
like, hey, go on stage and bringon justin bieber.
I'm like, oh my god, oh god,why do I have to do that?
Can somebody else do that?
You know what I mean.
I have to do t.
I'm on tv every day.
I get sick to my stomach beforeI know I had to put myself in
some zone, kind of right.
You know what I mean like okay,I gotta go on tv.
All right, hold on, let's go.
All right, I'm ready.
You know what I?
Speaker 2 (24:03):
mean yeah, yeah, mine is a little different.
It's like I if, if you ask meto, if there's 10,000 people in
rooms hey, the speaker didn'tshow up could you give a speech?
No problem, uh, but don't takeme to a cocktail party oh yeah,
no, I've tried, I'm, I try tofall into the wall.
I'm ducking under the couch.
(24:24):
I don't want to talk to nobody.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
I'm in the corner or I go in the bathroom and wait as
long as I can.
You don't?
Speaker 2 (24:30):
go around the corner and hide and sip my little drink
forever Let me tell you hownervous I get.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
I was hoping you were going to cancel, but then, when
it's over'm like that wasawesome, I'm so, I'm so glad I
win, you know.
But up until then I'm hopingthat, whatever, if I get invited
somewhere, I'll say yes.
And then when I'm like, why didI say yes to that?
And I gotta go to this thing, Iget sick to my stomach, but I
get through it.
So then, with all this, I thinkwe should talk about election
(24:57):
anxiety, because I think that'sfascinating.
It goes along the lines of whatyou were saying, like I did.
Uh, somebody made a post on our,our radio shows, instagram, and
they made a a cool little video.
Someone on our show like thefour people dancing and having a
good time.
This is the way we feel when wecome to work in the morning.
And someone made a commentthey're trump supporters, they
know this and someone goes howdo you know that?
(25:17):
And they go Trump.
And then I was like I think wefollow Biden too.
I think we follow.
There's a Mormon leader that Ireally like, that I follow.
I'm not Mormon Just because Ifollow someone on Instagram and
all hell broke loose, like whatis with people.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Yeah, I mean, I think we're just severely siloed.
I mean they want you to declarea position, like remember when
all of the universities had tostate a position on I think it
was Gaza?
Maybe I think it was Gaza, yeah, and that sister lost her job
at Harvard.
You know it was a dumb thingshe said, but it's just
(25:53):
everybody.
You got to state your positionWell, it's decisive.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
It's decisive, it's divisive sorry, it is divisive,
and we've never been in aposition where we've been this
divisive as a culture.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
And nuance is complicated.
You know the fine print iswhere your humanity is and you
can't read the fine print acrossthe room.
But nobody's getting closeanymore to read the fine print.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Which one?
Speaker 3 (26:16):
Where she said that you can't read the fine print
across the room.
I like that that speaks loudly.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
So you've got to be able to talk to people who don't
agree with you, and you can'ttalk to them by saying he's an
idiot, you're an idiot.
I don't know why I keeppointing at you.
I think it's because you havebeautiful red hair.
Speaker 3 (26:35):
Well, thank you, and I love a red hair, but anyway,
not in that way.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Oh Lord, where am I going?
What was I talking about?
Speaker 3 (26:44):
We were just talking about how to connect and talk to
people, and once again socialmedia.
You also can't have thoseconversations you can't talk at
people.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
What you have to do is start where people are and
then slowly walk them home.
My mother told me this.
I was on the bench, some guywas about he was getting ready
to go for domestic violence.
So I give him what anotherjudge friend of mine calls the
acid rain dance.
I hollered at him, bam, put himin jail.
(27:11):
And my mother happened to be inthere just checking out seeing
what all that money went thatthey paid for for college.
And she says Lynn, let me tellyou what you did wrong.
And said well, what did I dowrong, I mean?
And she said you didn't helpthat woman at all.
Now he's in jail thinking aboutthat.
Be hit and the other be who puthim in jail?
What you should have done.
(27:33):
And this is what I did.
From then on, I'd start sayingwhat did she do?
And then he'd say tell me, didthat upset you?
Uh-huh, uh-huh, and I'd getthem.
They would know that I knew howupset they were, which is why
they did what they did.
And then I said now let me tellyou why you're going to jail.
(27:55):
I can get them to laugh, I canget them to.
I've had a few of them write meafterwards.
Not asking for shortening time,he said I just want to tell you
I'm not a bad guy.
I made it so it mattered tothem what they thought.
Not all of them, not most ofthem, but every once in a blue
(28:20):
moon, if you can catch somebody,sit him down and stop him.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
You've rescued a family.
Well, you got him to own whathe did versus just accusatory.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Accusatory and fight.
People defend.
When you attack, people defend.
But if you show them that youunderstand their emotionality
they were upset then you canhelp them change their behavior,
because incarceration withoutelucidation is pointless.
You know, if we would go by therecidivism rates, we'd all lose
(28:49):
our jobs, because it's like arevolving door is there a movie
or tv show that's exactly likecourt?
Speaker 1 (28:58):
there you go, that's real.
Ooh, I stumped the judge.
Yeah, you know, I object, youobject Most of them aren't even.
You're out of order.
This whole courtroom is out oforder.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
Yeah right, Wasn't that a few good men or something
?
Speaker 1 (29:18):
No, that's Injustice for All Opportunity.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Oh, okay, yes.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
A few good men is you can't handle the truth.
End the truth.
Yeah, that's one of my favoritescenes of all time.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
But, no, I think real court is really boring.
I mean, I enjoy watching it,but you know, people don't, you
know?
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Like do you ever put anyone in jail or prison for
contempt?
I'll hold you in contempt.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Oh, I've had to put people in contempt.
One guy kind of he was there onit isn't?
I remember his whole name, hismiddle initial and everything he
.
He threatened to attack mebecause over a speeding ticket,
you know, and I was like, oh no,you got to go to jail, but the
best one, I will tell you, I wasat a jury trial and this guy
(30:04):
was stalking his counselor andso it was a jury trial.
He was representing himself.
So the prosecutor got up andvoir dired the the people and I
asked the questions.
You said, hey, who do you know?
you know, just ask so you canpick your jury.
And then I said okay, mr Smith,you may voir dire the jury.
(30:27):
And he stood up.
He said do you believe in JesusChrist?
It happened to be.
We had all Christians therethat day, so everybody threw up
their hands and he said as longas you believe in me, I'm good
with all of you, and sat down.
(30:50):
Wow.
So this is the first time I'veever had jurors that were
released come back.
So I had to do an exam to seeif he was competent to stand
trial.
The bizarre thing about that iscompetency is determined
legally as follows youunderstand the nature of the
proceedings, you understandwhat's involved, who's who,
(31:14):
who's doing what, and youunderstand the nature of the
offense and you can participatemeaningfully in your defense.
Now, unless I could prove tohim he wasn't, I could prove he
wasn't Jesus because I ain'tseen Jesus.
He got the right to believeanything he wants to.
I asked him all the pertinentquestions.
(31:36):
He knew everything that wasgoing on.
He knew what the penalty was.
He knew everything we had to goforward with the trial.
He stood up, gave an openingstatement talking about not only
am I Jesus, I was Adam in thegarden and that man, the guy who
(31:56):
he was stalking, screwed Eve.
It's a good story.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
I don't know if it had anything to do with what we
were talking about.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
Yeah, Jail or the psych unit.
Well, yeah, he needed a mentalhealth.
I mean psych unit.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
I couldn't because I couldn't adjudicate First guy I
ever had to go see I rememberhis name too and we were going
to adjudicate him.
He was trying to get him toplead no contest by reason of
insanity and we sent him to apsychiatrist and I kept the note
.
It said Mr Smith refuses toplead not guilty by reason of
(32:39):
insanity because he is under thedelusional belief that he is
not insane well, yeah, that'sthe answer that's a fact are
there cases that are worldfamous that you look at?
Speaker 1 (32:53):
you would have ruled differently not that I know
about like if you go at the ojtrial which, by the way, uh
judge ito.
Whatever happened to that guy.
He was, like, so famous whathappens to you judges?
Speaker 2 (33:04):
yeah, I had cocktails with uh.
I used to hang out with uhmarcia clark and uh chris darden
because we were doing a showtogether.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
I don't know what show we were doing together you
know, chris chris darden, myfriend kevin rowe, from learning
rowe, chris darden was hisprofessor, his law professor.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
oh yeah, he was an interested dude.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
He was an interested dude.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
He really really was.
It was just fascinating.
They gave me a lot of behindthe scenes stuff which they
swore me to secrecy so I had toleave it alone.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
It's probably on a Netflix special.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
I know, but like I was just watching the Lacey,
Peterson documentary.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
You see that one.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
The Lacey Pearson, scott Pearson one.
Yes, oh, but I watched all thetrials.
Jodi Arias had me by the throatand I was living in Mesa at the
time.
It was fantastic.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
The guy I worked with used to write her notes.
He was one of those crazies ohman, he'd write her letters and
stuff, yeah.
And then there's another showright now I'm watching on Max.
It's called Born Evil.
Have you seen it?
It's terrifying, it's it'sabout a serial killer.
It's, it's true, documentary aserial killer that we don't know
(34:08):
about.
But they've got him and it'sjust awful and I can't.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
I have to watch it in increments in the afternoon
because I can't sleep, can't doit at night, I can't sleep yeah
yeah, what so when you're homealone chilling out, I know
you're always active writingbooks and stuff.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
And what do you watch on tv?
Speaker 2 (34:21):
what do I watch?
I watch a lot of true crime.
I watch a lot of serial killerstuff.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Well then, you've got to watch Born Evil.
No, I am Mindhunter, I'mwatching that right now you are.
They stopped doing it, davidLynch is not going to do it
anymore and there's a bigprotest and I think they're
trying to do a season three.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
I hope so.
So, because I was so mad whenthey stopped.
Yeah, oh, my goodness.
And I knew I read a lot aboutKemper and all those guys and
the ones that started out and itwas so true to life.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
I would pause it and then Google everything and it's
like the actors are identical.
The Ed Kemper guy that playshim looks exactly like him, the
B2K killer guy, all of it.
You're probably not there yet.
Speaker 3 (35:08):
I am, I am there.
I am there as a heck of a show.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
I really love that so you know me.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
I'm sitting next to somebody else on the couch right
who has that background.
I'm like isn't he this real?
Is this how the FBI does it?
And he's like, yeah, that'sexactly how we do it he's a
profiler, her husband.
You gotta meet that, oh yeah soit's just funny, because I, you
know it's like you always wantto fact check that kind of stuff
.
You know, is it tv drama or isit real?
And he says it's actually quitereal.
(35:33):
So her dude yeah wow, we weredoing that with Linus too, with
the CIA.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
Linus, I was.
Could you watch that?
Speaker 3 (35:41):
no, I haven't seen that.
Oh, you might want to checkthat one out.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
It's not quite courtroom drama, but so with are
you have new books coming out?
Are you writing?
Because you said you earlier?
You said you sit like that whenyou write.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
Yeah, I have three books that are already out my
Mother's Rules genius, and howshe taught me to be some, to act
in opposition to how I feel soI could get out of the house,
and how those lessons helped meon the bench.
Then I did another book calledmaking marriage work, because I
(36:14):
was in the in the middle of a 30some odd year marriage.
And then I wrote a book, dearSonali, for daughters, because I
never had a daughter.
I married a man with four sonsand I had two more boys and I
was like, well, this brothercan't do girls, so I'm never
going to get a daughter.
I'm not trying Again.
So I wrote a book for20-year-old girls and now I'm
(36:35):
writing my first novel.
I ain't going to tell you aboutit because if it don't work out
I'm throwing it right in thetrash okay, so let's talk about
marriage and 30-year marriage.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
And it was what was the marriage book?
Speaker 2 (36:43):
it was called wait making marriage work so how do
you make marriage work?
Speaker 1 (36:48):
what's we're not gonna?
Speaker 2 (36:49):
talk about that because he died last year and
I'm not I'm not, I'm not, I'mnot good oh, I understand at all
.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
Oh, I'm sorry, but you can't tell us how make it
work before that.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
It's in the book communication yeah, I have a
whole chapter on speaking manand teaching women how to speak
man and how man to speak woman.
You know what I mean.
I was one day, he and I.
I was home and I had one kidwho's a wild man in one room
(37:26):
doing homework with him.
He was about 8.
And I had one kid who's a wildman In one room doing homework
with him.
He was about eight and I hadanother one in another room
doing homework because thelittle one would bother the big
one.
I was cooking and my husbandwas watching a ball game and I'm
sitting there and I see lightsand sirens and my husband looks
(37:47):
at me and says the police arehere, doesn't move.
I get up, I go to the door, guyputs his foot in the door,
police cop pushes me back.
What's up?
My son the one that messesaround did a 911 hang-up call
(38:08):
and they knew it was my house,so they rolled because they
thought somebody was in there.
Speaker 3 (38:14):
Oh man.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
And I was hot, you know.
Then my husband looks in therefrigerator and says there's no
milk.
My husband looks in therefrigerator and says there's no
milk.
And I was about to light thatbrother up and I said I'm going
(38:35):
to give him enough room to hanghimself.
And I said, could you get some?
And he said, sure, baby, whatelse you need?
He didn't notice, he did notlook around, he didn't.
You got to make a solid, hardass, baby.
I need you to a and they willit's communication.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
Yeah, I said.
Her and I have been marriedalmost 30 years and I think it's
.
Here's an example.
I'll never forget this.
I had an iced tea in therefrigerator and she says to me
are you not going to drink youriced tea?
And I was like well, it's inthe refrigerator, I'm going to.
But I was like do you want it?
Like, if you want it, you canhave it.
(39:19):
But that's not what she said.
She't like can I have your icedtea?
She was like are you gonnadrink your iced tea?
Well, the answer to that is I'mgoing to, yeah, but if you want
it, you can have it.
You see what I'm saying?
There's these women.
You women play, we do it allthe time.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
It's like it's like we're driving in the car and I'm
not gonna say I want, I wanthungry.
I said, baby, are you hungry?
It's what we do, it's how we wetry not to be pushy so we do,
we come in, we come in on yourlight, so except they don't hear
light.
They don't hear light.
So because if you say I'mhungry, it's like, oh, here she
(39:53):
goes, get like, baby, are youhungry?
You know what I mean.
You kind of kind of come intoit slow.
But then again, like I was inthe car and my husband was
driving, we were in the parkinglot going up and up.
Yeah well, baby, here's aparking spot, here's a parking
spot.
He's going up and up, and mymother was in the back seat and
(40:13):
she could see because I wasgetting crisp and she tapped me
on the back and said men do that.
Speaker 3 (40:30):
She was a wise woman without judgment.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
They do it.
That happened yesterday.
We ask a question when we wantsomething.
That's what we do.
You just, they're just we're.
Speaker 3 (40:41):
They're weird and we're odd, and that's what it is
.
Every woman listening to thathas said I've been in the car
when that happened happened tome yesterday.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Her and I were going to go out get coffee and I'm
pulling in the parking lot shewas there's a space right there,
like I know, and there's aspace right here.
I'm going into this space righthere like why don't you, why
are you bringing?
I'm driving, I know um, yourmother.
Was she like a psychiatrist orsomething like she's?
Speaker 2 (41:02):
just extraordinarily emotionally intelligent.
My father was, uh, bipolar,badly so, and uh, he was
unmedicated his entire life andI know one time, like my mother,
didn't put all of the shadesdown equidistantly around the
house.
This is back in the 60s, right.
So the phone was stillconnected to the wall and I was
(41:23):
sitting in the kitchen and thephone would ring Mom, pick it up
.
He'd yell, put the phone down.
Five minutes later, phone wouldring, pick it up.
He'd yell put the phone downfor hours.
And I said mommy, why do youkeep picking up the phone?
He says, cause, as long as he'sat work, as long as he's on the
(41:45):
phone, I know he's not on hisway home.
It seems to be enough for himto yell at me from there, and I
have things to do.
Speaker 1 (41:54):
Jeez, what did he do for a living?
Speaker 2 (41:56):
He was a lawyer.
Oh wow, he went to BluefieldState.
He used to go two weeks in thecoal mine, then two weeks in
undergrad, two weeks in the coalmine, two in undergrad and then
he went to, uh, world war iiand he was born in 1919.
(42:17):
My grandmother was born in 1886and she went to college because
she was the smart one.
My grandfather had two wives.
The first one was just regular,because all her kids are
regular, and I remember thesecond one of them that was
married to the second wife whenI was pregnant and uh, she says
what is it?
And I says it's a boy and shesays that's too bad because
(42:38):
there's something wrong with allthe boys and they are.
They were extraordinarilybrilliant and just crazy and and
my mother was able to managehim and me and my sister, and we
got done, wasn't, nobody mad,everybody got where they were
(42:59):
going.
She did, she died, she lived 20years after he died off the
interest of the income of thetrust fund he left for my sister
and I, wow, she was comfy,comfy, comfy but did he?
Speaker 1 (43:12):
did you ever go to him for legal advice, or when
you were on a case or you weredoing something?
Speaker 2 (43:16):
daddy, don't do things like that really no, he
was either solving a problem,but you couldn't he no, he was
an unusual dude.
He really really was Very smart.
Very, very, very friend of hiscame.
(43:40):
He said I'm going to divorce mywife.
He's got a lot of money.
She said he goes.
You can divorce her if you wantto, but you can't use me.
She's a good woman.
You need to stay with her.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
Oh, wow.
That kind of dude wow, are anyof your kids following your
profession?
Speaker 2 (43:54):
uh, no one.
One of them is, um, he doessomething about coordinating
systems in new homes, security,I don't know.
He does something about housing.
(44:14):
Anyway, new homes, and that one, I'm loving him, I'm loving him
hard.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
That's funny.
We have a son that we think isgoing to graduate next year from
U of A our oldest son and I wastelling my wife I was like I
don't know what he's going to dowhen he graduates.
But we're going to be aboutempty nesters for maybe six
months and then I think he'sprobably going to move back into
the house and I'm okay with it.
We downsized just to get him out, and it didn't work.
(44:44):
What do you do, for you know,one of the things with this,
this podcast that we're doing is, you know, it's health and
nutrition too.
We get into it.
What's your?
Do you exercise?
Do you eat right?
Speaker 2 (44:51):
What's your practice?
I do exercise, I do.
I walk uphill on the treadmilla lot and I run outside with the
dogs a lot, and I don't know.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
But do you get into that stuff?
Do you look at?
Okay, this is how old I am, Ishould.
They're saying that I shouldlift weights.
I should do this, I should dothat.
Speaker 2 (45:14):
You don't do you follow any trends no, but I
always get caught up into thingslike for like.
When I in my 30s to my 40s, Ibecame a black belt in taekwondo
, that took 10 years, and so youhave to do that every three
days.
And then when I came here Iplayed tennis for years and then
, you know, I was a day, youknow.
(45:34):
So I usually get into stuffthat is physical.
Now I'm going to try to dodancing or something, so,
because I used to be a dancerback in the day, but I do
something that's physical.
Speaker 3 (45:44):
You move, I move yeah , right, that's the thing, the
most important thing absolutelywhat about what?
Do you do anything specificallyfor stress release, because
we've talked about a lot aboutthe stressors right now out
there.
So is there anything youpractice?
People talk about doinggrounding.
They talk about meditation.
Is there anything you foundthat helps you there?
Speaker 2 (46:03):
oh, a million things.
I have a worry book.
You know I worry.
If I'm worrying about something, I have to write it all down,
that's your journal?
not quite, because I know if Iwrote it down I won't have to
remember it, because I knowwhatever worry is down.
And then I have to go back in aweek and then I have to write
down what actually happened.
And then you feel stupid.
(46:25):
So I have to go.
I go around making myself feelstupid about my worries so that
that lets me worry less and lessand less and less.
Uh, if I'm upset in the morning, I have a.
Uh, I have a playlist for thetype of upset I am to take me
from.
I'm gonna start with celeeLoGreen's FU and then I moved to
(46:50):
Anita Baker.
You know.
So you know.
And by the time we get to Anita, you know I'm singing, you know
I'm just laying out WhitneyHouston.
They can't do anything with me.
I have sticky notes and stuff onmy computer.
Are you worrying or are youworking?
I started that when I was ajudge.
(47:11):
My husband used to call me thenight stalker because I used to
walk around the house all nightwondering what if I did the
right thing that day.
But I have a lot of them.
I do.
I do have a lot of them.
I do have to.
Uh, I got two dogs.
Sometimes I just have to gooutside with the dogs and just
run and gun and carry on, andthen I always say this
(47:34):
expression everything's aproblem until you're sick, and
then sick is the only problemyou have.
I'm not sick, let's keep itmoving.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
That's good.
I don't understand the worrybook.
Can you tell me that again?
How does the worry book work?
Speaker 2 (47:49):
Worry book.
You can keep it by my bed whenI'm worrying Obsessive thoughts
and you write down whatever Iwrite it down and then have a
little thing online on the pageand then I write down what
happened afterwards.
Oh, it's hilarious.
Speaker 1 (48:02):
So you write, because if you write it down it's kind
of out of your head.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
It kind of out of your head.
It's out of my head, right?
Sometimes I hang on to stuffbecause I think I don't want to
forget all of the different waysI could possibly solve this
problem.
Because that's what I do Ichase problems.
So if I put down everything Ithought I know I I have, I have
the list and it's exhaustive bythe morning sometimes by the
morning, I already think it'sstupid.
Speaker 1 (48:24):
But if, if, if this situation occurs and it's not a
problem, which it usually isn't-so then you compare what really
happened to the worry andyou're like that was so stupid,
I can't believe I was worriedabout that amazing that's
awesome, she quantifies theproblem, that's awesome because
it's only a problem in themoment.
I know there's so many I I reada lot of that stuff.
You know, uh, the memes thattell you don't worry about stuff
(48:47):
, everything you're worriedabout about now, a year from now
, what you're worrying aboutright now is not going to matter
.
Speaker 2 (48:50):
Right.
Speaker 1 (48:50):
But the sick thing is dead.
Speaker 2 (48:52):
on I'm terrified of that.
Speaker 1 (48:53):
Yeah, oh man.
Well, I mean thanks for jumpingon our podcast.
Speaker 2 (48:57):
Thanks for having me.
Can I say something about mypodcast?
Speaker 3 (49:01):
Yes, absolutely Go right ahead.
Speaker 2 (49:12):
I've got a new podcast.
It's on.
We already had two episodes.
It's called Feeling on Purposeand the whole thing is I'm
trying to teach others what mymother taught me, which was the
ability to think your waythrough how you feel, so you can
do what you need to do even ifyou don't feel like doing it.
And, deeper still, it allowsyou to help reach behind and
manage other people, because ifyou understand how other people
feel, despite what they say,you're going to have an easier
(49:34):
time understanding what theyneed and being able to you know,
start where they are andwelcome home to you.
Speaker 1 (49:42):
So is it available on all platforms?
Speaker 2 (49:44):
yes, it's available on all platforms and youtube oh
so it's a video.
Speaker 1 (49:48):
It's a video podcast as well.
Yes, audio podcast as well.
All right, man, that's great.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (49:53):
Thank you.
Thank you for having me, it wasfun.
to start this podcast .
Um, we call it right now thedoctor and the dj, and we've had
a few guests, but we have adifferent guest today which
doesn't necessarily fit thedoctor and the dj.
And we've had a few guests, butwe have a different guest today
which doesn't necessarily fitthe doctor and the dj mold, or
maybe it does.
Um, and I I want to make sure Iintroduce you correctly, so
because I I'm afraid don't beafraid so do we say honorable?
do you say because I heard youknow one of the guys who runs
(00:39):
our podcast call you lynn and Iwas like whoa hey, whoa, lynn
toller.
Your honor, lynn toller.
Honorable most people now youshould call call you Lynn.
And I was like whoa hey, whoa,lynn Toler.
Your Honor, lynn Toler.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Honorable.
Now you should call me Lynn.
Most people know me as JudgeLynn.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Judge Lynn.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
But that's the known moniker, like Judge Judy, once
Jay and Judge Judy got together,every judge is now known by
their first names.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Judge Lynn.
So we call you Judge Lynn.
Yeah, divorce court, divorcecourt, marriage boot camp.
That's how you judge Lynn.
Yeah, because you've been atdivorce court.
Divorce court, marriage bootcamp, marriage boot camp.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
I mean, your resume is pretty ridiculous when it
comes to it's long.
Yeah, it's not.
Whether it's good, I don't know, but it's long.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
You know I was on YouTube today.
I wanted to check out some oldepisodes.
So I go to YouTube and there'slike I don't know, and the day
before it's not.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
They repost them all the time.
Now I was on for 14 years.
Now somebody else is on it, butthey repost them all because
they're evergreen.
It's always your relationship.
Why are you and Bob not gettingalong?
What are we fighting about?
It's a divorce court.
It's really just a relationshipshow with a robe, you know,
(01:41):
because it's about healthyrelationships and it got to the
point where people would come,didn't want a divorce or didn't
want to litigate anything.
They came to get advice.
So we started doing before yourvows and save my marriages,
because I was good at assessingthe dysfunction and being able
(02:05):
to craft some kind of solution,even if that solution is get a
butt ticket and run, you knowWow.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Well, when you're behind the bench, do you sit
like that?
Oh, I got no shoes on.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Oh, I have all kinds of stuff.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
Everything under the robe.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Just, oh man, yeah, I never wear shoes.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
For real when you're on court, even like in real
court, not TV court.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Real court.
I stopped wearing shoes too.
I stopped wearing the robe tooafter a while In the beginning,
because I was elected judge in1994, so I looked like I was
about 12.
And I was 30, 31, 32.
No, I wasn't, I don't know.
I was 33.
31, 32.
No, I wasn't.
I don't need it.
I was 33, and I had to wear therobe and do all that kind of
(02:49):
stuff because no one believed it.
It just didn't make any sense.
But after a while, and once Ihad a reputation, you know, the
trappings weren't important tome anymore.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
So people come to court and you just be like
wearing that.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
I had no shoes on.
Now they couldn't see mebecause I could round that
corner real quick.
But they could see I didn'thave a robe on, I didn't care.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
I thought you'd be wearing a robe today, oh, yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
You came out and Now you know that was originally a
male-dominated profession,because we would have known
better than to make somethingthat ugly.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Or at least that gray wig that we see in the English
shows.
You're right.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
We have the same thing, that you see me at
Benicera all the time.
And, of course, as a doctor,you know everybody walks around
in their white coats and I, forthe last 15 years, have never
worn a white coat.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
You did last week, you remember I go what's with
the coat?
Speaker 3 (03:43):
And I said said.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
You said I'm a doctor .
No, I said I'm cold, that'sright.
You said I'm cold and there wasno other jacket in the building
for me to wear, but I don't.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
I don't wear it either, because I don't think
you need to.
I mean people we carry ourpresence.
We don't need a certain youknow stigmata around us to let
people know who we are, so I dothe same thing so, judge Lynn,
how do you go from divorce court?
Speaker 1 (04:06):
go to school at Harvard?
How do you end up in Mesa,arizona?
Speaker 2 (04:10):
oh, what happened was I was.
You know, I was a judge in Ohiowhen I first went, when I was
doing the judge thing in thecriminal court.
I got the judge, I got the thejob out in LA and I commuted for
two years and then the commutegot ugly but I wasn't gonna pay
Los Angeles prices for nothing.
And after leaving Cleveland Imean Phoenix almost gave me a
(04:32):
heart attack with the prices,but so I came.
I would was gonna live eitherhere or Vegas, because I needed
a one-hour flight to the gig, soI just flew out, picked a place
in Mesa and we moved.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Wow, so how long have you been in Arizona?
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Since 07.
Oh wow, a long time.
Oh, so you're a zoney Almost,because there are very few
natives out here, very fewnatives.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Well, one of the things we want to talk about
right was like because right nowwe've got that health vibe, we
want to talk about marriages,mental health, stress, anxiety,
how much it plays into theeveryday medical community.
Also, I like that off air here.
We kind of popped up theelection anxiety.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
There's a lot of that going on.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
It's the time of the year and the thing I want the
thing is, that's my thing ismental health should always be a
part of the health conversation.
And you know we have a societywhere, you know, mr Williams
killed Ms Kellerman at Taco Bellin Stowe Ohio because he was
(05:42):
upset in Stowe Ohio because hewas upset.
We're in a position where ouremotionality is so surface and
it is so extreme.
With all of the social media,it's becoming a real problem for
us to manage our feelings.
I think you know how you'resupposed to go to the physical
doctor every year.
(06:02):
I think you should go to apsychiatrist every year or a
counselor every year.
Everybody just say, hey, what'shappening in there?
Is there a problem?
Is something ticking a littleslow?
Is it ticking too fast?
There's nothing wrong withhaving a gear wobbling, as long
as you know which one it is andwhat to do when it starts to go.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
You know.
Speaking of that, I'm justcurious about in your career of
being a judge and a lawyer, arethere any cases like if you're
going to bed, let's say it'snine o'clock at night and you're
going to bed, you're byyourself and you're just
thinking about stuff.
Are there any terrible cases?
Just pop in your head, you go,you remember this, this one.
I can't believe that happened.
I saw this person crying incourt.
Is there anything that juststicks with you from your past?
Speaker 2 (06:43):
I remember having this dude in court on a murder
charge.
He killed his girlfriend, no,he killed his mother.
And his girlfriend talked himinto it and the girlfriend was
there and she was talking to meand I could tell that she's just
very manipulative, just very,very manipulative.
(07:08):
And she had said somethingabout being pregnant at the time
and I'm saying well, you know,you've got a lot of problems.
You know, I don't want to hearabout that right now.
We're doing this, we're doingthat Because she was charged
with something minor he wascharged with.
And she came back before me andI can't remember why and she
said I got the abortion, likeyou told me to whoa, just
(07:32):
because I said you know said itto you first thing she said to
me and that's six with you yeah,I mean not that she did it, but
she was doing that to that dudeand got him to kill his mother.
This is how she runs her life is.
She runs around, she gets intopeople's feelings and makes them
(07:55):
do stuff To me.
I was just.
I was floored by thatpersonality though I am not
anymore and I just found itextraordinary extraordinary.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
But but he was on trial, she wasn't right he?
Speaker 2 (08:10):
yeah, he was.
I was just doing a preliminaryhearing to kick him up to the
another court oh, so you hadsmall charges.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
He had a big charge, but you when you hear all that,
you can't do anything.
When you see something likethat and you can't go, you're in
contempt or you're whatever.
You can't, you can't throw anypower to the person.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
That's not being no no, I mean if they act up in
there.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
But how screwed up you gotta be to kill your mom
and have your girlfriend talkyou into it yeah, there's a lot
of that.
I know, man, was she a bad mom?
This?
Speaker 3 (08:41):
kind of goes right back to what you were saying
earlier about.
You know you have your annualphysical checkup.
We need an annual mentalcheckup.
But to do that we've got tochange our system because we do
not have enough providers.
We do not have adequate accessto mental health in our country.
We had Dr Shulay on a littlewhile ago, who's a
(09:02):
board-certified psychiatrist whoreally speaks to these things
as well.
It's just, it's a nearimpossible task to meet the
needs of the community and Ithink a lot of it does fall on
the medical providers to be thatsomewhat in between mental
health provider sometimes andthey're stressed to find the
amount of time to listenappropriately.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Yeah, and I think that insurance has something to
do with it too, because of thelack of parity.
You know you break your foot,but you're not feeling too well
in the head whether or not youknow what they're going to cover
.
It's always more difficult toget it covered, and when I was a
judge in Cleveland, I saw somany people who were mentally
ill were in there because theywere mentally ill.
(09:42):
You know, if you have a heartattack and fall down and a bus
has to stop, they take you to ahospital.
If you're having a psychoticepisode and you sit down in the
middle of the street and do that, they take you to jail, Right.
And what I was trying to do wasget a first responders mental
(10:03):
health team for all the localcourts, Because if you were in
the major court, they had awhole floor just dedicated to
the mentally ill, but we had noresources and I would have
people come in.
I'll never forget this guybecause he came over to the
house to thank me and I was gone.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
He came to your house .
Speaker 2 (10:24):
No, the family member .
What happened was there was awhole family there, one family
member, and he was crazy Ishouldn't say crazy, I call
myself crazy all the time.
He was disturbed, he wasdisturbed, he had mental health
issues and he couldn't affordhis meds.
You know, this is back in the1990s and they just didn't have
(10:44):
any.
And he goes can you put me incounty jail?
Don't put me in city jail, putme in county jail.
Max me out so they will med meup, because in county jail they
will pay for your meds.
And his family member came andthanked me for it because I put
him in jail longer than I shouldhave.
But he wanted to get right andI figured my job is to get
(11:05):
things as right as I can be andif he needed six months to get
right, that's what I was goingto do.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
So are you still a lawyer?
Like can you still practice?
Speaker 2 (11:14):
I kept my license up for years after I went on TV and
then I just I let it go so Icould go and start it back up by
taking all the continuing legaleducation.
If I did that, I could go andstart it back up by taking all
the continuing legal education.
If I did that, I could do it.
But right now my status is onhold.
I'm frozen, so what?
Speaker 1 (11:31):
was it like.
So you went to Harvard right.
Right.
Is that Harvard?
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Law, Harvard undergrad.
Wow Whoa man.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
So you're like really smart.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Oh, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Yeah, so what's that like?
Do you get a letter in the mail?
Speaker 2 (11:44):
I'm talking to a doctor.
Let me tell you what I did.
My parents told my sister and I, since we were this big, that
you're going to Ivy Leagueschools and you're going to be
physicians.
Now you can pick any Ivy Leagueschool you want, you can pick
any kind of physician you want,but that's what you two were
doing.
So my sister went off, toddledoff to Dartmouth.
(12:06):
She's a neurologist.
I went to Harvard.
I partied so hard, do you hearme?
I had to drop all the hardcourses, became an English major
and it was like my senior yeardaddy called and said yo, what
(12:27):
you doing?
And I said, uh, I don't know.
And he said if you don't go tograduate school because daddy
paid for it Dartmouth andHarvard if you don't go to
graduate school, you got to geta job.
I ran and took the LSAT, gotinto law school, went to Penn
(12:48):
Law.
Didn't go to class there, but Ididn't, wasn't a doctor.
But my sister who did go toclass, she is a board certified
neurologist.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
So I'm the family failure, but are you and your
sister close?
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Not really, oddly enough, no, she's only a year or
so ahead of me, but we werevery different people.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
I just knowing that your parents told you to go Ivy
League like I just can't imagineOur son.
We have an 18,.
We have three boys.
Our youngest is 18, and he gota letter, an email, that he got
into U of A and my wife startedcrying U of A.
And my wife started crying U ofA and I said to him because
he's got like a 4.0, I was like,just literally before knowing
we were going to talk to you, Iwas like, hey, you should apply
(13:30):
to Harvard and I can't imaginewhat that would be like to get
an acceptance letter to Harvard.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
I was in the bathtub and the reason I know I was in
the bathtub is because the theletter is wrinkled because I I
in early decision, so it wasright after.
It was like the only school Ihad applied to and I got so
excited I threw the letter up, Ijumped out of the tub and just
ran down the house and theletter was just bobbing in the
water.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Unbelievable.
Hey, are there celebrities thatyou've had to?
Any famous people you've had tobe a judge or a lawyer for?
Speaker 2 (14:05):
No, I've met some famous people.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
You could say that, could you?
It's not like a medical thing.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Well, I wouldn't tell if I had represented them, but
I wouldn't because I wasn't thatkind of lawyer.
You know what I mean.
I did corporate law before Idid criminal law as a judge, you
know.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
What about famous cases?
Criminal law as a judge, whatabout famous cases?
I mean, what got the attentionof divorce court people?
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Who knows.
I was on the bench one day andI got off and it was back in the
pink.
You know, while you were, whatfox called.
They want to know if you wantto be on tv and I never got a
straight answer of who did it,why they did it.
I know they had a.
They did have an article on mein the paper and what the
(14:51):
article was.
Some some uh reporter was bored,so he came in the court see
what was happening.
It just so happened that therewas a group of of black folk and
a group of Arabs, one all Arabs, all on one side.
The blacks were all on theother side.
There was a man on trial fordisorderly conduct because one
(15:16):
of the black kids went into theArab store and got a cookie bar,
and the whole neighborhoodturned out.
So instead of just adjudicatingthat guy, I said I'm not
interested in you.
I went down there and I saidlisten, what are you doing?
This lady gets up.
She's pregnant.
I said where are you going?
She says I'm smoking acigarette.
I said not on my watch.
(15:37):
Sit down and give that baby abreak.
And then I talked to everybodyabout what did you do?
So with your 35-year-old self.
You went over there and toldthat man now if an 11-year-old
had said what your son said tohim and by the time I was done,
I had everybody laughing and Ihad everybody feeling stupid.
And I said now the reason I didthis because I know you people
(16:01):
are going home and you live neareach other and you go to that
store.
So this has got to end.
Today he wrote a article aboutme nine months later when he
didn't have anything to do, andI think they might've seen that.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Okay, Cause you you're kind of known also for
some of your weird or differentpunishments.
Right, Weird is good, Weirdyeah.
Like what are some of thepunishments you gave people?
Speaker 2 (16:28):
I had a friend Judge Chicanetti was way better than
that than I do I used to makehim listen to the Barney song if
you had.
Oh, that's torture.
You know, remember too loudthump, thump, thump, thump In
people who drive, and drivenoises Six Hours of Barney.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
That was a punishment , uh-huh.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
I bet they never did it again.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
They didn't do it in Cleveland Heights.
Mostly what I did, though, is Irealized I was too little, too
late, and I would start groupsfor young men and young women to
kind of like redirect them,because they weren't emotionally
healthy.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
You know what I mean well, let's shift gears, to say
go fast forward to marriage bootcamp, marriage boot camp yeah,
I agree yeah, what?
Speaker 3 (17:24):
first off did you come up with the idea from
divorce court and seeing whatyou were able to do and help
people before they got to thatpoint and said wait a minute, we
need to back this up.
We need to hit a minute earliertime you didn't understand
something.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
I'm the world's biggest.
I fail up ass backwards all thetime.
I just someone got bored onMarriage Boot Camp.
There was a whole show.
It was introduced by thiscouple in Dallas and they did
one segment.
Oh, let's do a divorce courtsegment.
I went in there.
I did so well.
(17:57):
They said let's make her aregular.
And then when they fell outwith the, the originators of the
show me and another guy took itover.
So it was.
It was I was in the right placeat the right time and just fell
in it then what's the hip-hopone?
it's well.
We had marriage boot camp andwe used to have a couple people
from these kind of reality showsin this one, and then we
(18:17):
decided to have all hip hop.
You know all from the hip hopindustry.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Like who.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Oh, CeeLo Green and Soulja Boy and Waka.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Oh my God, Soulja Boy , tell them.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Waka Flocka.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Are you serious Like wait?
They're coming in for marriageboot camp.
Soulja Boy had a how to turnout with Soulja Boy.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
He listen.
He was so funny he used toalways like that to me when we
walked by.
He was hilarious.
He was just absolutely.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
They all were are these shows on YouTube right now
?
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Hip Hop Boot Camp, that's what it's called Hip Hop
Boot Camp.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
And what channel, what network, what app I don't
know.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
I always watch it on youtube was it uh?
Speaker 1 (19:04):
is it a while ago?
Yeah?
No, it's still there but you do, you still do it oh, no, no, a
lot of that stuff.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
You know, when covid came, that was a huge production
.
You would have a hundred peopleon set at any given time.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
It was just too hard, we just couldn't do it I think
when you bring up covid, that'sanother thing where a lot of the
mental health right peoplestarted mental health.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
It did right.
What do you think?
Speaker 1 (19:28):
what do you mean?
How so?
Speaker 2 (19:29):
I think it broke us.
I think we we lost the abilityto calibrate and regulate
ourselves out in the in thelarger community.
We got isolated.
We got what we want.
We got to drink it too much, wehad too much to eat, and then
we got isolated.
We got what we want.
We got to drinking too much, wehad too much to eat, and then
we got irritated.
And now we're all out here andnow that we're on social media
that you know you got rage bait,everybody's looking at that, so
(19:52):
everybody is amped up.
We got cortisol, adrenalineeverything is just rushing and
rolling all the time and we werehome.
Everything is just rushing androlling all the time.
And we were home and we just welost.
I think we lost a bit of ourability to regulate in company.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
We're all siloed now.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
You don't think exactly what I think and if you
don't think it at the same levelthat I think it, and if you
don't think at it, think aboutit quick enough.
I hate you.
I can't talk to you, you can'ttell me nothing and I won't deal
with you.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
That's where we are, I believe it's something we've
never seen before in society.
So we do not know how tonavigate this effectively and I
think a lot in the medicalcommunity right now we're trying
to deal with that because we'reon the front lines right the.
ER doctors are on the frontlines, the first responders are
on the front lines of a lot ofthis, and I don't think we've
been given the tools tounderstand how to help people
(20:55):
out of that.
And you know we're talkingabout marriage bootcamp.
I mean mean so much of thisinfighting that's happening
within the family unit.
You're talking about beingsiloed in your home, but then in
the home you've got a new levelof kind of dysregulation and
dysfunction amongst the peoplethere.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
um, we've got to, we've got to find a new way
around this, a new norm, right,better norm, right, right,
because the new norm is notworking and one of the thing and
the and the reason I got caughtup with the tyler and all of
this kind of stuff is we have tomake practicing our
emotionality a norm.
You know what I mean.
To practice.
I have to practice being, uh,secure.
(21:35):
I'm very nervous, I'm very shy,I'm I tense towards depression.
My mother thinks I'm bipolar.
My father was definitelybipolar.
All of his brothers werebipolar, so much so that none of
them did well, they just youknow.
So I didn't have the option ofnot managing myself emotionally
(21:57):
at all periods of time.
And my thing is, if I can takethis shy, reclusive chick and
turn her into somebody who doesthis for a living, everybody can
take who they are and make it acalmer, less excitable.
Everybody's that.
You know what I mean.
You can be better.
(22:19):
So there's no more of thisgetting shot at Taco Bell.
You know everybody talks mentalhealth after a shooting for
about a week.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
You're saying you're shy.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Extraordinarily, you would never know it.
Reclusive.
That's why my sister and Ididn't get along, because she
was very outgoing.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Wow, I mean I see you as extremely outgoing.
Not at all Because you're herewith cameras and you're on, but
when you go, if you're at thegrocery store you're yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
This is the first time I left the house this week.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
And my son had to drive me.
I don't like to drive.
I'm scared to drive.
I'm scared to fly.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
Do it.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Don't do it, don't like it, have to be driven to do
it.
I think it's very yes, I thinkit's very relatable what you're,
what you're saying, I feel verysimilar to to what you're
saying.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
So do normal things unnerve you?
Speaker 1 (23:11):
unnerve me or what does that unnerve me?
Like they nerve me if normalthings like like I don't want to
do anything oh well, there,well, there you go.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
Yeah, we're together.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Yeah, I like to stay home and not do it.
I don't like to go on vacation,I'd rather just stay home,
don't?
Speaker 3 (23:25):
want to go.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
But I do it because of my family, right?
Or I do it because I do a radioshow.
Like I do a radio show, I sitin a little room and gets sick
to my stomach me too.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Yeah, me too.
I never thought I just figuredsomeone got to deal with yeah
and yeah and it is and it's.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
You know it's like if I'm at a concert and they're
like, hey, go on stage and bringon justin bieber.
I'm like, oh my god, oh god,why do I have to do that?
Can somebody else do that?
You know what I mean.
I have to do t.
I'm on tv every day.
I get sick to my stomach beforeI know I had to put myself in
some zone, kind of right.
You know what I mean like okay,I gotta go on tv.
All right, hold on, let's go.
All right, I'm ready.
You know what I?
Speaker 2 (24:03):
mean yeah, yeah, mine is a little different.
It's like I if, if you ask meto, if there's 10,000 people in
rooms hey, the speaker didn'tshow up could you give a speech?
No problem, uh, but don't takeme to a cocktail party oh yeah,
no, I've tried, I'm, I try tofall into the wall.
I'm ducking under the couch.
(24:24):
I don't want to talk to nobody.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
I'm in the corner or I go in the bathroom and wait as
long as I can.
You don't?
Speaker 2 (24:30):
go around the corner and hide and sip my little drink
forever Let me tell you hownervous I get.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
I was hoping you were going to cancel, but then, when
it's over'm like that wasawesome, I'm so, I'm so glad I
win, you know.
But up until then I'm hopingthat, whatever, if I get invited
somewhere, I'll say yes.
And then when I'm like, why didI say yes to that?
And I gotta go to this thing, Iget sick to my stomach, but I
get through it.
So then, with all this, I thinkwe should talk about election
(24:57):
anxiety, because I think that'sfascinating.
It goes along the lines of whatyou were saying, like I did.
Uh, somebody made a post on our,our radio shows, instagram, and
they made a a cool little video.
Someone on our show like thefour people dancing and having a
good time.
This is the way we feel when wecome to work in the morning.
And someone made a commentthey're trump supporters, they
know this and someone goes howdo you know that?
(25:17):
And they go Trump.
And then I was like I think wefollow Biden too.
I think we follow.
There's a Mormon leader that Ireally like, that I follow.
I'm not Mormon Just because Ifollow someone on Instagram and
all hell broke loose, like whatis with people.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Yeah, I mean, I think we're just severely siloed.
I mean they want you to declarea position, like remember when
all of the universities had tostate a position on I think it
was Gaza?
Maybe I think it was Gaza, yeah, and that sister lost her job
at Harvard.
You know it was a dumb thingshe said, but it's just
(25:53):
everybody.
You got to state your positionWell, it's decisive.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
It's decisive, it's divisive sorry, it is divisive,
and we've never been in aposition where we've been this
divisive as a culture.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
And nuance is complicated.
You know the fine print iswhere your humanity is and you
can't read the fine print acrossthe room.
But nobody's getting closeanymore to read the fine print.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Which one?
Speaker 3 (26:16):
Where she said that you can't read the fine print
across the room.
I like that that speaks loudly.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
So you've got to be able to talk to people who don't
agree with you, and you can'ttalk to them by saying he's an
idiot, you're an idiot.
I don't know why I keeppointing at you.
I think it's because you havebeautiful red hair.
Speaker 3 (26:35):
Well, thank you, and I love a red hair, but anyway,
not in that way.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Oh Lord, where am I going?
What was I talking about?
Speaker 3 (26:44):
We were just talking about how to connect and talk to
people, and once again socialmedia.
You also can't have thoseconversations you can't talk at
people.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
What you have to do is start where people are and
then slowly walk them home.
My mother told me this.
I was on the bench, some guywas about he was getting ready
to go for domestic violence.
So I give him what anotherjudge friend of mine calls the
acid rain dance.
I hollered at him, bam, put himin jail.
(27:11):
And my mother happened to be inthere just checking out seeing
what all that money went thatthey paid for for college.
And she says Lynn, let me tellyou what you did wrong.
And said well, what did I dowrong, I mean?
And she said you didn't helpthat woman at all.
Now he's in jail thinking aboutthat.
Be hit and the other be who puthim in jail?
What you should have done.
(27:33):
And this is what I did.
From then on, I'd start sayingwhat did she do?
And then he'd say tell me, didthat upset you?
Uh-huh, uh-huh, and I'd getthem.
They would know that I knew howupset they were, which is why
they did what they did.
And then I said now let me tellyou why you're going to jail.
(27:55):
I can get them to laugh, I canget them to.
I've had a few of them write meafterwards.
Not asking for shortening time,he said I just want to tell you
I'm not a bad guy.
I made it so it mattered tothem what they thought.
Not all of them, not most ofthem, but every once in a blue
(28:20):
moon, if you can catch somebody,sit him down and stop him.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
You've rescued a family.
Well, you got him to own whathe did versus just accusatory.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Accusatory and fight.
People defend.
When you attack, people defend.
But if you show them that youunderstand their emotionality
they were upset then you canhelp them change their behavior,
because incarceration withoutelucidation is pointless.
You know, if we would go by therecidivism rates, we'd all lose
(28:49):
our jobs, because it's like arevolving door is there a movie
or tv show that's exactly likecourt?
Speaker 1 (28:58):
there you go, that's real.
Ooh, I stumped the judge.
Yeah, you know, I object, youobject Most of them aren't even.
You're out of order.
This whole courtroom is out oforder.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
Yeah right, Wasn't that a few good men or something
?
Speaker 1 (29:18):
No, that's Injustice for All Opportunity.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Oh, okay, yes.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
A few good men is you can't handle the truth.
End the truth.
Yeah, that's one of my favoritescenes of all time.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
But, no, I think real court is really boring.
I mean, I enjoy watching it,but you know, people don't, you
know?
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Like do you ever put anyone in jail or prison for
contempt?
I'll hold you in contempt.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Oh, I've had to put people in contempt.
One guy kind of he was there onit isn't?
I remember his whole name, hismiddle initial and everything he
.
He threatened to attack mebecause over a speeding ticket,
you know, and I was like, oh no,you got to go to jail, but the
best one, I will tell you, I wasat a jury trial and this guy
(30:04):
was stalking his counselor andso it was a jury trial.
He was representing himself.
So the prosecutor got up andvoir dired the the people and I
asked the questions.
You said, hey, who do you know?
you know, just ask so you canpick your jury.
And then I said okay, mr Smith,you may voir dire the jury.
(30:27):
And he stood up.
He said do you believe in JesusChrist?
It happened to be.
We had all Christians therethat day, so everybody threw up
their hands and he said as longas you believe in me, I'm good
with all of you, and sat down.
(30:50):
Wow.
So this is the first time I'veever had jurors that were
released come back.
So I had to do an exam to seeif he was competent to stand
trial.
The bizarre thing about that iscompetency is determined
legally as follows youunderstand the nature of the
proceedings, you understandwhat's involved, who's who,
(31:14):
who's doing what, and youunderstand the nature of the
offense and you can participatemeaningfully in your defense.
Now, unless I could prove tohim he wasn't, I could prove he
wasn't Jesus because I ain'tseen Jesus.
He got the right to believeanything he wants to.
I asked him all the pertinentquestions.
(31:36):
He knew everything that wasgoing on.
He knew what the penalty was.
He knew everything we had to goforward with the trial.
He stood up, gave an openingstatement talking about not only
am I Jesus, I was Adam in thegarden and that man, the guy who
(31:56):
he was stalking, screwed Eve.
It's a good story.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
I don't know if it had anything to do with what we
were talking about.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
Yeah, Jail or the psych unit.
Well, yeah, he needed a mentalhealth.
I mean psych unit.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
I couldn't because I couldn't adjudicate First guy I
ever had to go see I rememberhis name too and we were going
to adjudicate him.
He was trying to get him toplead no contest by reason of
insanity and we sent him to apsychiatrist and I kept the note
.
It said Mr Smith refuses toplead not guilty by reason of
(32:39):
insanity because he is under thedelusional belief that he is
not insane well, yeah, that'sthe answer that's a fact are
there cases that are worldfamous that you look at?
Speaker 1 (32:53):
you would have ruled differently not that I know
about like if you go at the ojtrial which, by the way, uh
judge ito.
Whatever happened to that guy.
He was, like, so famous whathappens to you judges?
Speaker 2 (33:04):
yeah, I had cocktails with uh.
I used to hang out with uhmarcia clark and uh chris darden
because we were doing a showtogether.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
I don't know what show we were doing together you
know, chris chris darden, myfriend kevin rowe, from learning
rowe, chris darden was hisprofessor, his law professor.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
oh yeah, he was an interested dude.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
He was an interested dude.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
He really really was.
It was just fascinating.
They gave me a lot of behindthe scenes stuff which they
swore me to secrecy so I had toleave it alone.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
It's probably on a Netflix special.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
I know, but like I was just watching the Lacey,
Peterson documentary.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
You see that one.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
The Lacey Pearson, scott Pearson one.
Yes, oh, but I watched all thetrials.
Jodi Arias had me by the throatand I was living in Mesa at the
time.
It was fantastic.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
The guy I worked with used to write her notes.
He was one of those crazies ohman, he'd write her letters and
stuff, yeah.
And then there's another showright now I'm watching on Max.
It's called Born Evil.
Have you seen it?
It's terrifying, it's it'sabout a serial killer.
It's, it's true, documentary aserial killer that we don't know
(34:08):
about.
But they've got him and it'sjust awful and I can't.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
I have to watch it in increments in the afternoon
because I can't sleep, can't doit at night, I can't sleep yeah
yeah, what so when you're homealone chilling out, I know
you're always active writingbooks and stuff.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
And what do you watch on tv?
Speaker 2 (34:21):
what do I watch?
I watch a lot of true crime.
I watch a lot of serial killerstuff.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Well then, you've got to watch Born Evil.
No, I am Mindhunter, I'mwatching that right now you are.
They stopped doing it, davidLynch is not going to do it
anymore and there's a bigprotest and I think they're
trying to do a season three.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
I hope so.
So, because I was so mad whenthey stopped.
Yeah, oh, my goodness.
And I knew I read a lot aboutKemper and all those guys and
the ones that started out and itwas so true to life.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
I would pause it and then Google everything and it's
like the actors are identical.
The Ed Kemper guy that playshim looks exactly like him, the
B2K killer guy, all of it.
You're probably not there yet.
Speaker 3 (35:08):
I am, I am there.
I am there as a heck of a show.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
I really love that so you know me.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
I'm sitting next to somebody else on the couch right
who has that background.
I'm like isn't he this real?
Is this how the FBI does it?
And he's like, yeah, that'sexactly how we do it he's a
profiler, her husband.
You gotta meet that, oh yeah soit's just funny, because I, you
know it's like you always wantto fact check that kind of stuff
.
You know, is it tv drama or isit real?
And he says it's actually quitereal.
(35:33):
So her dude yeah wow, we weredoing that with Linus too, with
the CIA.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
Linus, I was.
Could you watch that?
Speaker 3 (35:41):
no, I haven't seen that.
Oh, you might want to checkthat one out.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
It's not quite courtroom drama, but so with are
you have new books coming out?
Are you writing?
Because you said you earlier?
You said you sit like that whenyou write.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
Yeah, I have three books that are already out my
Mother's Rules genius, and howshe taught me to be some, to act
in opposition to how I feel soI could get out of the house,
and how those lessons helped meon the bench.
Then I did another book calledmaking marriage work, because I
(36:14):
was in the in the middle of a 30some odd year marriage.
And then I wrote a book, dearSonali, for daughters, because I
never had a daughter.
I married a man with four sonsand I had two more boys and I
was like, well, this brothercan't do girls, so I'm never
going to get a daughter.
I'm not trying Again.
So I wrote a book for20-year-old girls and now I'm
(36:35):
writing my first novel.
I ain't going to tell you aboutit because if it don't work out
I'm throwing it right in thetrash okay, so let's talk about
marriage and 30-year marriage.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
And it was what was the marriage book?
Speaker 2 (36:43):
it was called wait making marriage work so how do
you make marriage work?
Speaker 1 (36:48):
what's we're not gonna?
Speaker 2 (36:49):
talk about that because he died last year and
I'm not I'm not, I'm not, I'mnot good oh, I understand at all
.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
Oh, I'm sorry, but you can't tell us how make it
work before that.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
It's in the book communication yeah, I have a
whole chapter on speaking manand teaching women how to speak
man and how man to speak woman.
You know what I mean.
I was one day, he and I.
I was home and I had one kidwho's a wild man in one room
(37:26):
doing homework with him.
He was about 8.
And I had one kid who's a wildman In one room doing homework
with him.
He was about eight and I hadanother one in another room
doing homework because thelittle one would bother the big
one.
I was cooking and my husbandwas watching a ball game and I'm
sitting there and I see lightsand sirens and my husband looks
(37:47):
at me and says the police arehere, doesn't move.
I get up, I go to the door, guyputs his foot in the door,
police cop pushes me back.
What's up?
My son the one that messesaround did a 911 hang-up call
(38:08):
and they knew it was my house,so they rolled because they
thought somebody was in there.
Speaker 3 (38:14):
Oh man.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
And I was hot, you know.
Then my husband looks in therefrigerator and says there's no
milk.
My husband looks in therefrigerator and says there's no
milk.
And I was about to light thatbrother up and I said I'm going
(38:35):
to give him enough room to hanghimself.
And I said, could you get some?
And he said, sure, baby, whatelse you need?
He didn't notice, he did notlook around, he didn't.
You got to make a solid, hardass, baby.
I need you to a and they willit's communication.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
Yeah, I said.
Her and I have been marriedalmost 30 years and I think it's
.
Here's an example.
I'll never forget this.
I had an iced tea in therefrigerator and she says to me
are you not going to drink youriced tea?
And I was like well, it's inthe refrigerator, I'm going to.
But I was like do you want it?
Like, if you want it, you canhave it.
(39:19):
But that's not what she said.
She't like can I have your icedtea?
She was like are you gonnadrink your iced tea?
Well, the answer to that is I'mgoing to, yeah, but if you want
it, you can have it.
You see what I'm saying?
There's these women.
You women play, we do it allthe time.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
It's like it's like we're driving in the car and I'm
not gonna say I want, I wanthungry.
I said, baby, are you hungry?
It's what we do, it's how we wetry not to be pushy so we do,
we come in, we come in on yourlight, so except they don't hear
light.
They don't hear light.
So because if you say I'mhungry, it's like, oh, here she
(39:53):
goes, get like, baby, are youhungry?
You know what I mean.
You kind of kind of come intoit slow.
But then again, like I was inthe car and my husband was
driving, we were in the parkinglot going up and up.
Yeah well, baby, here's aparking spot, here's a parking
spot.
He's going up and up, and mymother was in the back seat and
(40:13):
she could see because I wasgetting crisp and she tapped me
on the back and said men do that.
Speaker 3 (40:30):
She was a wise woman without judgment.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
They do it.
That happened yesterday.
We ask a question when we wantsomething.
That's what we do.
You just, they're just we're.
Speaker 3 (40:41):
They're weird and we're odd, and that's what it is
.
Every woman listening to thathas said I've been in the car
when that happened happened tome yesterday.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Her and I were going to go out get coffee and I'm
pulling in the parking lot shewas there's a space right there,
like I know, and there's aspace right here.
I'm going into this space righthere like why don't you, why
are you bringing?
I'm driving, I know um, yourmother.
Was she like a psychiatrist orsomething like she's?
Speaker 2 (41:02):
just extraordinarily emotionally intelligent.
My father was, uh, bipolar,badly so, and uh, he was
unmedicated his entire life andI know one time, like my mother,
didn't put all of the shadesdown equidistantly around the
house.
This is back in the 60s, right.
So the phone was stillconnected to the wall and I was
(41:23):
sitting in the kitchen and thephone would ring Mom, pick it up
.
He'd yell, put the phone down.
Five minutes later, phone wouldring, pick it up.
He'd yell put the phone downfor hours.
And I said mommy, why do youkeep picking up the phone?
He says, cause, as long as he'sat work, as long as he's on the
(41:45):
phone, I know he's not on hisway home.
It seems to be enough for himto yell at me from there, and I
have things to do.
Speaker 1 (41:54):
Jeez, what did he do for a living?
Speaker 2 (41:56):
He was a lawyer.
Oh wow, he went to BluefieldState.
He used to go two weeks in thecoal mine, then two weeks in
undergrad, two weeks in the coalmine, two in undergrad and then
he went to, uh, world war iiand he was born in 1919.
(42:17):
My grandmother was born in 1886and she went to college because
she was the smart one.
My grandfather had two wives.
The first one was just regular,because all her kids are
regular, and I remember thesecond one of them that was
married to the second wife whenI was pregnant and uh, she says
what is it?
And I says it's a boy and shesays that's too bad because
(42:38):
there's something wrong with allthe boys and they are.
They were extraordinarilybrilliant and just crazy and and
my mother was able to managehim and me and my sister, and we
got done, wasn't, nobody mad,everybody got where they were
(42:59):
going.
She did, she died, she lived 20years after he died off the
interest of the income of thetrust fund he left for my sister
and I, wow, she was comfy,comfy, comfy but did he?
Speaker 1 (43:12):
did you ever go to him for legal advice, or when
you were on a case or you weredoing something?
Speaker 2 (43:16):
daddy, don't do things like that really no, he
was either solving a problem,but you couldn't he no, he was
an unusual dude.
He really really was Very smart.
Very, very, very friend of hiscame.
(43:40):
He said I'm going to divorce mywife.
He's got a lot of money.
She said he goes.
You can divorce her if you wantto, but you can't use me.
She's a good woman.
You need to stay with her.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
Oh, wow.
That kind of dude wow, are anyof your kids following your
profession?
Speaker 2 (43:54):
uh, no one.
One of them is, um, he doessomething about coordinating
systems in new homes, security,I don't know.
He does something about housing.
(44:14):
Anyway, new homes, and that one, I'm loving him, I'm loving him
hard.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
That's funny.
We have a son that we think isgoing to graduate next year from
U of A our oldest son and I wastelling my wife I was like I
don't know what he's going to dowhen he graduates.
But we're going to be aboutempty nesters for maybe six
months and then I think he'sprobably going to move back into
the house and I'm okay with it.
We downsized just to get him out, and it didn't work.
(44:44):
What do you do, for you know,one of the things with this,
this podcast that we're doing is, you know, it's health and
nutrition too.
We get into it.
What's your?
Do you exercise?
Do you eat right?
Speaker 2 (44:51):
What's your practice?
I do exercise, I do.
I walk uphill on the treadmilla lot and I run outside with the
dogs a lot, and I don't know.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
But do you get into that stuff?
Do you look at?
Okay, this is how old I am, Ishould.
They're saying that I shouldlift weights.
I should do this, I should dothat.
Speaker 2 (45:14):
You don't do you follow any trends no, but I
always get caught up into thingslike for like.
When I in my 30s to my 40s, Ibecame a black belt in taekwondo
, that took 10 years, and so youhave to do that every three
days.
And then when I came here Iplayed tennis for years and then
, you know, I was a day, youknow.
(45:34):
So I usually get into stuffthat is physical.
Now I'm going to try to dodancing or something, so,
because I used to be a dancerback in the day, but I do
something that's physical.
Speaker 3 (45:44):
You move, I move yeah , right, that's the thing, the
most important thing absolutelywhat about what?
Do you do anything specificallyfor stress release, because
we've talked about a lot aboutthe stressors right now out
there.
So is there anything youpractice?
People talk about doinggrounding.
They talk about meditation.
Is there anything you foundthat helps you there?
Speaker 2 (46:03):
oh, a million things.
I have a worry book.
You know I worry.
If I'm worrying about something, I have to write it all down,
that's your journal?
not quite, because I know if Iwrote it down I won't have to
remember it, because I knowwhatever worry is down.
And then I have to go back in aweek and then I have to write
down what actually happened.
And then you feel stupid.
(46:25):
So I have to go.
I go around making myself feelstupid about my worries so that
that lets me worry less and lessand less and less.
Uh, if I'm upset in the morning, I have a.
Uh, I have a playlist for thetype of upset I am to take me
from.
I'm gonna start with celeeLoGreen's FU and then I moved to
(46:50):
Anita Baker.
You know.
So you know.
And by the time we get to Anita, you know I'm singing, you know
I'm just laying out WhitneyHouston.
They can't do anything with me.
I have sticky notes and stuff onmy computer.
Are you worrying or are youworking?
I started that when I was ajudge.
(47:11):
My husband used to call me thenight stalker because I used to
walk around the house all nightwondering what if I did the
right thing that day.
But I have a lot of them.
I do.
I do have a lot of them.
I do have to.
Uh, I got two dogs.
Sometimes I just have to gooutside with the dogs and just
run and gun and carry on, andthen I always say this
(47:34):
expression everything's aproblem until you're sick, and
then sick is the only problemyou have.
I'm not sick, let's keep itmoving.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
That's good.
I don't understand the worrybook.
Can you tell me that again?
How does the worry book work?
Speaker 2 (47:49):
Worry book.
You can keep it by my bed whenI'm worrying Obsessive thoughts
and you write down whatever Iwrite it down and then have a
little thing online on the pageand then I write down what
happened afterwards.
Oh, it's hilarious.
Speaker 1 (48:02):
So you write, because if you write it down it's kind
of out of your head.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
It kind of out of your head.
It's out of my head, right?
Sometimes I hang on to stuffbecause I think I don't want to
forget all of the different waysI could possibly solve this
problem.
Because that's what I do Ichase problems.
So if I put down everything Ithought I know I I have, I have
the list and it's exhaustive bythe morning sometimes by the
morning, I already think it'sstupid.
Speaker 1 (48:24):
But if, if, if this situation occurs and it's not a
problem, which it usually isn't-so then you compare what really
happened to the worry andyou're like that was so stupid,
I can't believe I was worriedabout that amazing that's
awesome, she quantifies theproblem, that's awesome because
it's only a problem in themoment.
I know there's so many I I reada lot of that stuff.
You know, uh, the memes thattell you don't worry about stuff
(48:47):
, everything you're worriedabout about now, a year from now
, what you're worrying aboutright now is not going to matter
.
Speaker 2 (48:50):
Right.
Speaker 1 (48:50):
But the sick thing is dead.
Speaker 2 (48:52):
on I'm terrified of that.
Speaker 1 (48:53):
Yeah, oh man.
Well, I mean thanks for jumpingon our podcast.
Speaker 2 (48:57):
Thanks for having me.
Can I say something about mypodcast?
Speaker 3 (49:01):
Yes, absolutely Go right ahead.
Speaker 2 (49:12):
I've got a new podcast.
It's on.
We already had two episodes.
It's called Feeling on Purposeand the whole thing is I'm
trying to teach others what mymother taught me, which was the
ability to think your waythrough how you feel, so you can
do what you need to do even ifyou don't feel like doing it.
And, deeper still, it allowsyou to help reach behind and
manage other people, because ifyou understand how other people
feel, despite what they say,you're going to have an easier
(49:34):
time understanding what theyneed and being able to you know,
start where they are andwelcome home to you.
Speaker 1 (49:42):
So is it available on all platforms?
Speaker 2 (49:44):
yes, it's available on all platforms and youtube oh
so it's a video.
Speaker 1 (49:48):
It's a video podcast as well.
Yes, audio podcast as well.
All right, man, that's great.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (49:53):
Thank you.
Thank you for having me, it wasfun.
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