Gods, Stories, Spiders, and Secrets - Season 2: The Story & The Engine

Hey, Who fans and welcome to Episode 424.

We're off to Lagos, where the Doctor plans to visit an old friend in his barber shop, however, there's weirdness afoot as trapped patrons are being forced to feed their stories to a terrifying engine.

The episode dives deep into cultural themes and storytelling, making for a visually stunning experience, but it’s not without its confusions. Join us as we unravel the good, the weird, and the downright puzzling moments.

This is The Big Blue Box Podcast

Join us each week for a new episode every Friday from your hosts Garry and Adam. We talk news, reviews, commentaries and general chat on everything Doctor Who PLUS listen to our monthly Round Table episodes with the whole team. Check out our website where you can also listen to all of our episodes for free along with the amazing reviews and articles from our writing team.

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Come and get involved and chat Who between episodes on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. We also have a free Discord server for you to hop in and chat with other like-minded Who fans.

Thank you for listening to this episode and remember to follow the podcast on your fav podcast app so you don't miss an episode when they drop every Friday (or pop over here for links to all the popular podcast platforms).

Have a fantastic week and until next time remember... Aaaaaaaaaaallons-y!

Episode Transcript

(00:19):
Hey, hey, hey who fans andwelcome to the Big Blue Box podcast.
My name's Garry.
My name's Adam.
And welcome to episode 424.Hey, you lot, welcome back to another

(00:49):
week and another episode.Thank you so much for coming back
and checking out our review ofseason two. As we rattle through
each week, it feels like wehope you've had a cracking one and
that you've managed to dosomething Doctor.
Doctor Who.
Related.
Did it properly this week.Yeah, yeah, not too bad.

(01:13):
Not too bad. Last week Adamwas in there like swimwear. Absolutely
obliterated me.
That's right. Gone easy on youthis week. Gone easy on you.
Yeah, yeah. So another episodeof season two, bud. We'll get onto
our review of that in amoment. Of course, those of you that

(01:34):
are joining us for the firsttime, welcome aboard the Big Blue
Box. It's great to have youhere and we are a very long standing
Doctor Who podcast. We've beenwaffling about Doctor Who for many
years now. So if you're new tothe show and new to the podcast and
thank you so much for checkingus out, welcome aboard. If you're
a longtime listener, welcomeone of the old grizzled ancients,

(01:55):
then welcome back. Great tohave you here, of course. And make
sure you're following orsubscribing to the podcast on your
fave podcast app of choice soyou don't miss a notification when
new episodes drop. And we alsodo a monthly roundtable episode as
well where we gather thewriting team and we just pick a subject
about Doctor Who and we justsit down and chill and just talk

(02:17):
about all the things to dowith Doctor Who. You can also listen
for free over on the website,which is bigblueboxpodcast.co.uk
and you can check out thereviews on from the writing team.
They've put big finish reviewsout. They do convention roundups
and all sorts of editorials.It's very cool there. There's also
links to the socials. We chatDoctor Who throughout the week quite
a lot on the social. So comeand join in over there. Give us a

(02:39):
like and a follow and chatDoctor Who there. And we have a very
cool free Discord server aswell. There's a link on our website.
Hop in there and chat lots ofDoctor Who with some very, very cool
Doctor Who fans. We've got agreat little community over there.
And don't forget to rememberto check out my co host channel over
on YouTube. It is of course,we all know by now the Geeks Handbag.

(03:01):
That's it. Let's all say ittogether. Come on. The Geeks Handbag.
Yep. Check out my YouTubechannel. I've got a new vid coming
out actually of me goingshopping, so hopefully you'll all
enjoy that for toys. I shouldprobably not. You know, I'm not just
popping to. Not just poppingout to get some groceries and taking
you with me. It's. It's alittle shopping video about toys.

(03:23):
So. Yeah, that'll be out on mychannel imminently.
Yeah, I'm so glad you followedup with shopping for toys because,
yeah, not a great advert for.
Just pop into Sainsbury's andother supermarkets are available.
Yes, go and check out hischannel. Loads of very cool geekery

(03:45):
stuff over there. Tons ofDoctor Who content, plus some other
Doctor Who just general geekstuff. And the video that Adam's
talking about, he gave me asneak. He gave me a little sneak
preview synopsis and somedetails before we recorded. And it
sounds excellent. So make sureyou go and sub to his YouTube channel
and go and check that all out.So how you been, bud? The last last

(04:08):
week since we last spoke, haveyou. How many times have you watched
our review episode?
Twice. I've watched it twiceto really try and get to grips with
it. I haven't done much DoctorWho related stuff this week, unless
you count having a haircut.But yeah, no, actually I haven't
done much Doctor Who, but afriend of mine did send me some photos

(04:30):
today. She said, oh, I was ina junk shop as you are, and they
had a load of Doctor Whofigures. Have you got any of these?
And there is like a wholecabinet of eagle moss figures. And
there were some pretty coolones in there. And I'm like, oh my
gosh, no, some of them lookreally good. Like you still there?
She was like, no, this isthree days ago. I was like, well,

(04:51):
if you go back. But yeah,some. I mean, the eagle moss stuff
I did did collect some of thatback in the day and some of them
were good and some were not sogood, but there were some good ones.
So may get her to grab some ofthem. So just point out, by the way,
this is back in the UK and I'mobviously in the US so it's not like
I can just pop over to have alook at this junk shop. But nice

(05:13):
of her to tell me.
Actually, dude, this remindsme, I was meant to say this a few
weeks back on the podcast, sothanks for jogging my memory. Talking
of shops that sell Doctor Whostuff, you know that over the years
we've commented quitefrequently about Forbidden Planet
and the decline in. Well, Iguess not just Forbidden Planet specifically,
but because of you, and I gothere quite frequently. That's, you

(05:36):
know, the sort of commondenominator between the two of us.
But the Doctor Who stuff hasbeen on decline, hasn't it, in terms
of merch?
Yeah.
And back in the day, weobviously had the Cabinet of Woe.
The grizzled Ancients willknow about that one. And. Yeah, so
you don't really see muchDoctor Who merch when you're out
and about these days. But afew weeks ago, I went over to. They

(06:00):
do this Star Wars event overin the shopping center in Redditch.
It's called Echo Base Live.And it's basically just one huge
Star Wars trading event. Likea million stalls, a billion Star
Wars products. Vintage, new,the lot. Very, very cool. Anyway,
was in there for a couple ofhours, picked up a few Star Wars

(06:22):
bits, was walking back throughthe shopping center and there was
a shop there. I can't rememberwhat it's called. I think it's called.
I think. I think it was calledthe Movie and Prop Store or the Movie
Store or something like that.Yeah, mate, there was the biggest
amount of Doctor Who merchI've ever seen.
Really?
Yeah. And you know what mademe. It made me think that they had

(06:43):
just swiped loads of stufffrom the Doctor Who Experience after
it closed down. And just Eaglemoss, Because you mentioned eagle
Moss, mate. There was like 500eagle moss figures.
Wow.
Literally hundreds andhundreds of them. And they had. Because

(07:05):
when I went to the DoctorExperience, this is like, I don't
know, six, seven years agonow. I remember seeing in the official
shop at the Experience, youknow, the old Doctor Who, the old
teapots and the milk jugs andthe shot glasses and all that. They
had all of that there. Theyhad like 20 of those each.

(07:25):
They had any of thosepoisonous mugs of the Doctor Who
faces that we learned thatcontained lead?
They did.
Did they have any of those?
They did, Yep. They had fouror five of those. They had about
10 different designs ofhoodies, about 30 different Dr. Who
T shirt designs. They hadeverything, mate. Like everything

(07:46):
that Forbidden Planet used todo, that the Experience Shop used
to do. Eagle, moth, the lot,mate. It was incredible.
Sounds good. Did you pickanything up?
No.
Right.
I'd already spent my budgetfor the day at the Star Wars event.
So, yeah, I didn't pick it,but I was tempted by a few things.
But as you Know, I did pick upa T shirt because I wore that at

(08:09):
the capital event that me andthe team went to a few weeks back.
So, yeah, sorry, I tell a lie,I did pick up a T shirt, but, no,
what did it have on was the.You know, the Cybermen, but in the
funko pop style. Oh, yeah, itwas one of those, yeah.
Cool. Sounds a good shot,mate. I mean, I don't see much Doctor

(08:31):
Who merch over here in Texas.Occasionally I'll spot something,
weirdly and quite bizarrely,one of the few bits of merch I have
seen over here, and it's in ashop, which is close to me, which
is full of, like, retro toysand stuff. I go in there quite a
lot. It's called the MovieStore. And there is, in a cabinet,

(08:52):
one of those mugs, the poisonmugs. And it's the fourth Doctor
one, you know, the big one,the fourth Doctor head. So he's in
the cabin over here. So theymade their way over to the US and
probably poisoned a few peopleon the way. But the only other thing
I've seen is, and you'll seeit, anyone who watches my latest
video, whenever it comes out,you'll see I go into Gamestop and

(09:12):
they had some sonicscrewdrivers and. Not the 15th Doctor?
No, no, a proper sonic. Theyhad the 10th Doctor sonic and the
Capaldi one, You know, thatweird blue and that blue Capaldi
one, they had those, which wasunusual to see because they're in
different packaging to the uk.So I don't know where they've come

(09:33):
from or if they've just beenhanging around forever. But, yeah,
don't see that much dot toomuch over here. It's a bit lacking.
Yeah.
Which is good for the wallet,to be fair, you know.
Oh, great for the wallet,mate. Yeah, I know what you mean,
yeah. So, yeah, the world ofDoctor Who merch. Crazy, crazy times.

(09:53):
Crazy.
Yeah. Anyway, enough of allthat talking about tap. We'll leave
that to Dalek Tat. Wherever he is.
Where is he?
Gone forever.
Is he anywhere? He's not overhere, is he? He's not in the US by
any chance? I'm not gonna bumpinto him when I go to, like, Billy
Bob's or somewhere, am I? Seehim in a Stets at the bar.

(10:14):
Bubba Gumps. Oi, darling.Chat. What you doing here?
Yeah, imagine that. Imaginegoing to Potbelly or somewhere or.
Or Walmart, and he's just inthere doing a weekly shop. What are
you doing in here?
Oh, God, he's too Miserable tobe hanging around people, mate. You
won't be in a built up area.
That's true.

(10:35):
We struggled to get him ontothe show and there's just two of
us remotely.
That's right.
That's hard enough.
I'd like to say I miss him, but.
Yeah, he'll make an appearanceone day, I'm sure.
Yeah.
All righty. Enough of allthat, hey? Enough of all this. We've
got a review to get to.
That's true. Yes.

(10:55):
What we doing this week?
Yeah. So here we are. Whatepisode is this? Episode five, isn't
it? And it's called The Story& The Engine.
Lagos, Nigeria. I've beenexpecting you. Wait. You're all missing.
Welcome. We need him now. Itis always hungry.

(11:19):
We must feed it. They cannot leave.
No one can. Are we under attack?
What is. Hello? Hello? Story.
Who are you? This is my domain.
What the hell is this?

(11:42):
Cor blimey.
Cor blimey indeed.
Watch. What a trailer.
The Story and the Engine firstbroadcast the other day on the 10th
of May. And it was written byInua Ellums, Directed by Michaela
McPherson. It was overseenobviously by RTD version 2, which

(12:06):
seems to be his name thesedays. RTD 2, obviously. Shootigatwa
Verada Sethu as Doctor andBelinda, and then about a dozen supporting
cast members. And the synopsisfor this one is when the Doctor and
Belinda land in Lagos foranother Vindicator reading, the Doctor
goes to a barbershop to meetan old friend. There he discovers

(12:29):
a mysterious barber trappingthe patrons, feeding an Engine with
their stories, as the titlesuggests. So, mate, really interesting
one this week. Very, verydifferent to what we've seen in Doctor
Who for a long time, I think,in many respects. So I'd love to.

(12:49):
I'm so interested in yourthoughts on this one, mate. So, as
usual, straight out the trap.What are your thoughts on this one?
Yeah, a very interesting onethis week, mate. And if ever an episode
needed a second watching, Ithink this is it. Because when we.
I was watching this on myother half when it finished, we kind
of just turned it and lookedat each other and were like, what

(13:11):
was all that about? This wasconfusing. This made Ghost Light
look like poetry. But no,that's not to say I didn't enjoy
it. It just was a veryconfusing watch. And I think for
the first probably good 15minutes, me and my partner were really
quite engrossed in this. Ithought I was liking it a lot, you
know, I thought it lookedvisually really nice. I loved the

(13:34):
Idea of this barbershop thatwas kind of not where it was supposed
to be. It was on the back of aspider and all this stuff, you know,
cool concept. And, like, yousaid, something we haven't seen before.
And I do love it. And I'vesaid this many times before, like
when Doctor Who tries stuff,whether it works or not, like the
frog in the chair, People hatethat poor old frog. But I like that
episode because it was weirdand different and this one was certainly

(13:57):
heading in that direction. Butthe problem with it is that as it
went on, me and my partnerwere just constantly asking each
other questions about what washappening. So I was like, sorry,
hang on, where's the spidercome from? What's that? Who's a God?
What? You know, where are wenow? It was just. I don't know how
the fugitive Doctor turns up.Hang on. Blink. And I nearly missed

(14:20):
that. So what was that about?What I'm gonna say, mate, is I kind
of enjoyed the visuals and Ireally liked a lot of the ideas in
this episode. If anything, Ijust think it was. It had too many
ideas. I think it was justtrying to cram in a load of stuff
and it. It was very hard tofollow. I can't imagine any child,

(14:40):
for example, being able tomake head or tail of this, let alone
a fully grown adult. So it wasconfusing. It was a bit of a mess
overall. But there was somestuff I really liked in it, mate.
Loved all the visuals of the,you know, the cartoons or whatever
coming to life in the windowand all that, and this concept of,
you know, having to tellstories, which I know we've seen

(15:03):
before, like in the Rings ofAkaten and all that sort of stuff,
but. Yeah, it's. I hate to sayit because I know I've said this
a few weeks on the trot now,it's a little bit like all the other
episodes where I really likeda lot of what I saw, but it just
fell apart once again. So Idon't want to be repeating myself,
but it's exactly how I feelabout this episode that it just.

(15:25):
I don't know, it just confusedme. And I have to be honest, even
on the second watch, I wasstill left quite confused by it.
I definitely got a better gripof what the story was trying to tell.
I just don't think it did itin a particular particularly good
way. And it certainly wasn'thelped by the fact that the. I don't

(15:45):
know if it was the fact theactors were mumbling or if it was
just A bad sound mix, but weboth really struggled to understand
and hear a lot of thedialogue. And on a second watch,
I was really, really trying.And we did put the subtitles on on
the second watch to actuallytry and work out because a lot of
the plot points that I'dmissed the first time around, like
what the spider was, forgoodness sake. I mean, I had no clue

(16:09):
the first time watching this.It just seemed to be randomly. The.
Suddenly the barbershop was.Was on the back of a spider and I
was like, what the heck isgoing on? You know. But just to sum
up, mate, it didn't frustrateme in a bad way that I didn't understand
it. If anything, it was makingme laugh that it was just so bonkers.
I was just like, this iscrazy. What is this episode? So,

(16:30):
yeah, a really odd one, mate.I didn't dislike it. I just found
it very confusing. And I feelthere was probably a really good
concept and story buried inthe middle of this. It just struggled
to get out. And I think ifanything, it just had too many ideas
going on to be acomprehensible story. So it ended
up being a bit of a mess.Yeah. What do you think of it?

(16:52):
I see. Yeah. Overall, I. Iquite liked it. Overall, I. I kind
of get what you're saying.It's. Even though we've got slightly
longer episodes with this sortof just shy of 50 minutes, I guess

(17:13):
it still didn't feel longenough to explain some of what was
going on. And so, yeah, you'reabsolutely right. I think because
of that, it then tries to.It's a bit like the Rise of Skywalker,
you know, that third film inthe sequel trilogy where there's
so much going on, but there'sjust not enough runtime to tell it,

(17:33):
to tell each sort of threadsufficiently. And so you end up just
feels like you're speedrunning through the story and by
the time you get to the end,it's like, okay, that was cool. I
think. I don't know. Was itcool? I don't know. I'll have to
watch it again to sort ofcatch myself up to see what was going
on. So there was a lot that Iliked about it and there was also
a. A bit that was like. I feellike this season every episode seems

(18:01):
to suffer with the same thingwhere it's like. Like the. Conceptually,
it's there. Like on paper, theingredients, everything, it's there.
But yeah, there's justsomething that's like. Like some.
It's like a piece of thejigsaw that you've put in a lovely
frame and then it's likeyou've, you've bought this 5,000

(18:23):
piece jigsaw and you've,you've done it and you framed it
and you're up on the wall andyou're proud of it and then you think,
hold on a minute, I've missedout a couple of pieces. That's really
annoying. Like, that's reallyplaying on my mind that, you know,
it's that there's a piecemissing. And I feel that's what I'm
feeling like with eachepisode. Like last week it was really

(18:44):
weird because you and I werelike, oh, I wasn't too keen on that.
I wasn't too keen on that. Butas we were talking through it and
I was sort of reminiscingabout the story that we'd just watched,
I ended up thinking, actually,yeah, this actually wasn't a bad
story at all. So the scoreended up being okay. Even though
we spent the episode saying weweren't happy about this or that

(19:06):
wasn't great, you know, thatkind of thing. I think that's, that's
like the ebb and flow of thethought process on it. It's like
for, for a couple of minuteswhen I'm thinking about this story
and as you and I are talkingabout it, I'm thinking, yeah, that
was fantastic. That was agreat bit of storytelling and it
was really good. But thenliterally at the click of fingers,

(19:27):
it's like, yeah, but then thatbit was, you know, what was going
on with that and that wasn'tgreat. And it was all crammed in
and so, yeah, mate, I think,yeah, in a nutshell, this wasn't
a bad episode at all. It waspretty good. There was just a few
elements where for the, Imean, the casual viewer. See you

(19:47):
later. Yeah, no chance inhell. Not a chance.
Yeah, I mean, that's thething. In many ways, it was just
a frustrating episode, wasn'tit? Because I was, as I said, I was
still, even when I was gettingconfused by it, I was still invested
enough to stick with it.Because it was very much a sort of

(20:08):
bottle episode, wasn't it?Very much contained in the barbershop.
And I know from listening tosome other podcasts that a lot of
people found that hard goingafter a time, you know, and I must
admit, probably around the 35minute mark, I was thinking, come
on, this needs to go in adifferent direction now. I think
it was around about when theDoctor started to Say he recognized

(20:30):
so and so, and then he got inthe barber chair and then she got
in the barber chair. I wasthinking, oh, this is all getting
a little bit bogged down now.And nothing's really interesting
is happening in thebarbershop. But I did like the concept
of it being somewhere wherethey were all trapped and the people
that gone missing were all inthere and how's the Doctor going
to save them? So as I said,you know, it was frustrating in that

(20:52):
sense because I was enjoyingthe concept of this episode and I
love it when Doctor triessomething different like this. But
it just was getting boggeddown in all the other stuff, like
the gods coming in and he's aGod. He's not a God. He used to work
for the God. She's a God. She.The Doctor remembers her, but he
doesn't remember her. Here'sthe fugitive Doctor. You know, it
just all suddenly started toget a little bit too much for me.

(21:14):
I was like, I just need tosort of concentrate on, let's, you
know, pull it back a bit,break it down a little bit and just
concentrate on the actualstory rather than throwing in all
this other stuff on top or atleast do it later, you know, I think
it's just. It almost felt likewe were in that barbershop trap with
them and everything was beingthrown us at once rather than actually

(21:34):
letting it play out. And maybethat is a downfall of having it all
contained in a 45 minuteepisode. Maybe it could have worked
a lot better as a two parter,I don't know. Because when the Doctor
breaks into the room with thebig old brain at the end and starts
doing all that stuff, I wasthinking, this is, you know, this
is cool, good stuff. It lookedgreat, that brain and, and all that.

(21:57):
So it just. Yeah, I thinkmaybe it's the middle part where
I was just getting a bit lost,a bit confused. Belinda was. I thought
she was trapped in the TARDISat first, and then I realized, watching
it again, she'd just been leftbehind. The Doctor just said, oh,
you wait there, I'm off to getme haircut. So. So I couldn't understand
why the TARDIS kept doing thatalarm thing. And then that kind of

(22:18):
went nowhere, you know, Imean, there was a lot of stuff that
kind of went nowhere. Therewas a lot of stuff being thrown at
us that didn't sort of have apayoff or didn't get explained. And
I think that's what. I foundit sort of frustrating. Overall.
I read you, dude, but I Canimagine it's it. Yeah. So for. I

(22:40):
just. I'm wondering where the.Because the rationale for making
this type of episode, when Imentioned the casual view, would
have been sort of lost in theweeds a little bit. I guess at this
point, when you're halfwaythrough the season, you're allowed
that. I guess if this wasepisode one or two, then, yeah. Any

(23:01):
newcomers to the show wouldhave been like, I have no clue what's
going on at all. Just becausewe had the. On the surface, like
you said, it's kind of anisolated story, isn't it? I can't
imagine we're gonna see theBarber turn up again, or Abby or
Bina, you know, but I don'tthink those guys are going to turn

(23:22):
up again in future Doctor Who.Big finish, present company accepted.
Yeah, I don't know. Big Finishwill probably do something with it.
I don't know. But. But evenas, like, regulars, you know, longtime
fans like you and I watchingit, I thought to myself, you know,
this is because you mentionedit's an isolated story, but I think

(23:43):
at this point in the series,you could probably get away with
that. We're over halfwaythrough, so, you know, newcomers
to everything. If you're notclued up on Doctor Who yet, tough,
you know, tough noogies. It's.It's your own fault for not. For
not going back and watching itall or. Or reading the books and

(24:04):
stuff like that. I just. Ofcourse. But I think these isolated
stories, they can be cool. Andit was a bit of a Belinda Light story
as well. Even though she wasin it. I kind of. I only remember
her from the beginning and theend, really. But the rest of it,
it, like, dived into, like,the Doctor's previous memories. We

(24:25):
saw a little show reel of theprevious incarnations of the Doctor.
Always nice.
Yeah, yeah. We had the. Ofcourse, we're going to. In a second,
we had Jo Martin back as thefugitive Doctor and, you know, all
these things where it reallydives into, like, the Doctor's history
and. And all that stuff. Soeven as a regular viewer of Doctor

(24:47):
Who, I found it a bit sort of,yeah. Speed running, having to go
through all these bits, whichI think why is why when you and I
review these episodes, wealways watch them at least twice,
don't we? So we said thisloads of times, but we try and watch
it once as a fan and then thesecond time as. As a reviewer or
opposite order, whichever wayyou want to do it. But, mate, I think

(25:11):
at some point I will Watchthis episode again in the future,
but I think another watch isgoing to be needed just to sort of
cement the ideas in your headand totally, you know, see what's
going on and whatnot. But.
I think if I was to watch thisin the future, mate, I'd watch it
with the mindset of just nottrying to. Not trying to worry too

(25:33):
much about explanations andjust take the story for what it is.
Because I think once you starttrying to work out exactly what's
going on, like, why what isthe spider, what's the web, you know,
why is the barbershop in,like, this dimension? How did the
barber do that in the first.You know, if you just stop trying
to sort of actually work outas a story, I think it could be quite

(25:55):
enjoyable because, as I said,visually really lovely, actually.
Love all the animation stuffand the sets and everything, and
it was nicely directed. But,yeah, I did compare it a bit to Ghost
Light earlier, which I thinkis kind of fair. I just mean that
in the sense of, you know,Ghost Light suffered from. From poor.
Well, not poor editing, but ithad to be edited down to fit, you

(26:16):
know, the time slot. So itlost a lot of stuff. I think this,
in a sense has the same issue,because if you were a casual viewer,
if you were just tuning intothis, the Doctor talks about these
people that are in thebarbershop as if he's known him forever.
I don't know when he's beengoing to this barbershop. You know
what I mean? So you could beforgiven for thinking we've seen
these people before. And so asa casual viewer and someone who watches

(26:40):
this all the time, that initself is a bit confusing because
it's. We don't know any ofthese people, we're just told that
the Doctor knows them. So wekind of have to take that on face
value that, oh, these are theDoctor's friends, and that's there's
no relationship been built up.You know what I mean? If we'd have
met them previously, even ifit was briefly in some previous episodes,
you know, you could have evenhad the Doctor just popping back

(27:02):
to the barbershop in oneepisode, just as a scene to set this
up further down the line, youknow, I mean, but to just throw us
in at the deep end and betold, this is a place the Doctor
likes to go, these are thepeople he likes to hang around with,
blah, blah, blah. It was alittle bit like, tell, not show a
lot as well, which I thinkalso probably didn't help in Establishing

(27:23):
a connection with thecharacters a bit.
Yeah, that makes sense, mate.I do like the. You mentioned about
the Doctor going back to thisbarbershop, presumably many times
that we've not seen. I didquite like the setup with that, though,
at the beginning. So once youget past the rinse and repeat with

(27:43):
Belinda, we've had every episode.
You know, mate, the firstthing my partner said and I thought
of you, the first thing hesaid when we were watching this was,
God, this is getting boring.Then keep saying that every week
I'm like, I know. Because it'sliterally the same dialogue. Oh,
my God. It was not a greatstart, that.
Yeah, once you get past thatbit with Belinda doing the whole.
Yeah, I did quite like the.The way that. I mean, the entire

(28:11):
episode itself is obviouslyset in a. The way it deals with people
of. Of color and the Africanculture and that sort of stuff. I
think that's a lovely. Reallylovely way of sort of moving Doctor
Who over to the sort ofadjacent storytelling area, because.

(28:32):
And what I mean by that is theway that they've handled race issues
so far since shooty has beenthe Doctor is. It's been quite. It's
been reactive to something,hasn't it? So in the previous episodes,
like Dot and Bubble and, youknow, when the Doctors, he's. He's
witnessed racism firsthand andhe's then reacted to that and it's

(28:55):
like. It's almost like shockvalue for the, you know, for the
viewer. It's like, you know,it's just one of those things where
now that the Doctor is aperson of color, that comes with
a set of unfortunatechallenges. And the way that they
did this at the beginning wasquite nice, where the Doctor kind

(29:15):
of said, I can't rememberexactly what he said, but now that
he's a Doctor of a black man,he doesn't always fit in with, you
know, the rest of the world.Presumably he means Earth the way
he did before as a whiteDoctor, which is completely understandable
based on those previous, youknow, bits I just mentioned. And

(29:39):
so when he says that. Buthere, though, in this location, that's
not a concern. It's not aworry. You know, we can just freely
be accepted. And. And I thinkBelinda even says, you know, my nan
was like, that had thatviewpoint where she took me to India
for that very reason and thatsort of thing. So I think that was
a really nice way to. To bringyou into that environment, rather

(30:01):
than just the TARDIS landingin Nigeria. They come out the doors
and it's like, oh, we're inNigeria. This is weird. The TARDIS
is playing up again. Or thatkind of thing that we've had many
times before. I think it wasnice that they just address that
right off the bat. And that'sthe reason why the Doctor is just
beaming, isn't he? When herealizes that. Where they are and

(30:24):
that he can go and visit hismate, Omo, in the. In the barbershop.
He's just beaming and it'sgreat. And, and all that stuff. So
culturally, the whole Africanculture and, and that sort of stuff,
it was really well done andlike you said, the, the direction
and the design and everything,really, really well done. And, you
know, as they're just walkingthrough the markets and, and doing
all that, very, very cool.

(30:45):
But it was nice to give theDoctor and Belinda that moment at
the start as well, to actuallybond and to start to get to know
them a little bit. Becausethis is the other thing that's very
much in the back of my mind atthe minute is we've got three episodes
left and I don't feel likeBelinda has been utilized as a companion
very well at all up until thispoint. I think we've needed a few
more moments where they juststop and have a chat. Let's get to

(31:08):
know them, you know, let's getto know Belinda at the same time
as the Doctor. So that, that.And it was a nice moment, but then,
sadly, she was left behind inthe TARDIS for a lot of the episode.
So again, it did feel like abit of a wasted episode for Belinda
because she didn't really getanything to do. On the plus side,
we did get the Doctor tellingthat nice story about Belinda that's,

(31:32):
you know, when she was a nurseand how she's trying to get home
but she has to stay late tosave someone. That actually worked
quite well for me, I thought,oh, yeah, we're actually getting
to, you know, getting to warmtowards Belinda by seeing this sort
of scene, you know, getting tosee her life. But again, mate, I
guess when they made thisseries, we. We assumed that, you

(31:53):
know, another series would befollowing it, which you still might
be, but I just don't feel likewe've got enough time to get to know
Belinda as a character that'sgoing to stand out unless something
dramatic happens over the nextthree episodes. Because even in this
one, I think she got a bitleft behind, to be fair. But it was
nice. I liked that momentbetween her and the Doctor. Just
would like to have seen a bitmore of that and if he gets that

(32:15):
blooming gadget out again,that's that stupid gadget, you know,
he gets it every week whenhe's trying to get home. What? Oh,
I want to break it over myknee. Actually, the clip, they've
just.
You're not a fan of the Vindicator?
No, I think I. I didn't mindit to begin with, but I know you've
said this a few times, but itis very much rinse, repeat, TARDIS

(32:37):
lands, get that gadget out,unfold it, pretend to look at it.
Oh, yeah, blah, blah, blah.Even in the clip they've released
today, the preview clip fromthe Interstellar episode that's coming
up, that's the clip theyshowed. He gets out the tardis, gets
the thing out. Let's test it.Oh, we're nearly there. It's. Oh,
my gosh. I'll be really gladto see the back of that thing. I
hope when he Hope when itfinally does what it's going to do,

(32:58):
he opens the TARDIS door andboots it as far into space as he
possibly can.
I'm sure it will all come tofruition in the finale. What that
actually is, mate.
Yeah, I'm sure it will.
Sure. Yep. Moving a bitfurther into the episode, then, let's
talk about a couple of thingsthat were very cool, and then we'll.

(33:20):
We'll pick up a couple of bitsthat we weren't so keen on. So, yeah,
I've already mentioned, like,the. The. The. The cultural aspect
and. And that stuff is very. Iloved all that. And, um, sometimes
when modern franchises dothat, it's. It. I think it's really,
really cool that people ofcolor can sort of identify with something

(33:45):
that's predominantly white inits sort of delivery over the years.
So I had that a lot with. Soanyone who's listening to podcasts
for years will know that I'mmarried to a woman of color and our
son. This happened whenSpider-Man: Into the Spider Verse
came out. You know, theanimated film that was not centered

(34:06):
so much around Peter Parker,but more around Miles Morales, a
person of color. So that was areally cool way of having. When you're
in that situation, it's like,okay, this is really, really cool
to have a bit ofrepresentation and a bit of mainstream
media, you know, and this isexactly what's happened with Dr.
Who in this episode, whereother than shooty, a black actor,

(34:28):
you know, being in the rolethat removed, it was pretty cool
to have an entire episodearound that. And I think it was.
I think I'm getting thisright, but the, the writer was a
good friend or is a goodfriend of Shooty's.
I believe so, yeah, yeah.
And I think he recommended himto Russell T. Davis and said this
could be a really cool, youknow, idea if we get him on board

(34:51):
and, and do all that stuff. Sohaving, you know, just, it was just
really cool to see that. So Ilove that, love that aspect of it.
The other thing I really likedwas a couple of performances we'll
get onto in a moment. But thefirst half an hour, the first 30
minutes for me were very, verycool in terms of having a lot of

(35:14):
unanswered questions. Soalthough we're saying on one hand,
yep, this episode falls foul alittle bit because it was confusing
in some ways and we didn'tknow what was going on. When you
were in watching it for thefirst time and you're sort of half
an hour in, you were kind ofexpecting the payoff for some of
those things anyway. Some ofthem didn't quite work out. But up

(35:35):
to that point it was reallycool to have this mystery around
who the barber actually is,you know, and who Abby is and what
exactly is going on with thegiant. You know, this barbershop
that's in sort of transdimensional on one hand from the
inside, but on the outsideit's still in Lagos and all that
stuff. So that was, I reallylike sort of the mystery around those

(35:58):
things until the, until thedoctor presses the barber about who
exactly he, you know, who areyou? You know, and I think he tells
him a bit of a yarn and thenthe doctor sees through it and starts
cracking up and, you know, getto the bottom of it. But up to that
point, dude, really love thatwhole, you know, what's going on.
It was, it was intriguing in agood way.

(36:20):
Yeah, I mean, that's what Imeant when I said we were invested
in this for a good sort of 20minutes. I think it had a good atmosphere
to it. Even though a lot ofquestions are being thrown out, it
was definitely pulling me in.And I did feel a certain amount of
threat, intention, which Iknow a lot of people didn't, but
I did when, you know, likewith the barber, when he, you know,
chewies in the chair and heswitches the clippers on, you're

(36:42):
like, I don't know. I, I feltthere was a good atmosphere to this
story even though I couldn'treally understand exactly what was
going on. And I did hope thatby the end of it I would. But that
just wasn't the case, but I. Idid sort of enjoy the ride for the
most part, if you know what I mean.
Yeah. Up until that point.
Just going back to what you'resaying about, you know, the episode

(37:03):
obviously being, you know,contained episode and the whole cast
is people of color andeverything. A lot of people have
picked up on the line, whichconfused me as well, where Schuti
said it was the first timehe'd had, you know, been in a body
that was a. A black body, aperson of color, which obviously

(37:24):
is a bit confusing, especiallyas we get to see the fugitive doctor
later and we know that thegirl at the portal was. Was a child
of color. So, I mean, I don'tknow, that line seems odd and I don't
think Russell. Yeah, you know,I'm sure Russell looks over the scripts.
Right. He wouldn't have letthat slip through.
Yeah. He didn't say he was thefirst doctor of color. He said he

(37:47):
was. He said he was. He wasthe. He was the first black man.
Okay. Yeah. I just. I don'tknow. A few people have picked up
on it and I. And I thought itat the time too, that when he said
that, I thought, no, no,you're not. You know, but actually,
dude, then he doesn't rememberthe fugitive, does he? I don't know.
Well, that's just about to saythat. That does lead into something

(38:09):
that is a bit of a conundrum.We might as well mention it now,
which is the fugitive doctor.Right. So. So yeah, I'm just going
back to what you said. I'mpretty sure he says being a. A man
of color, a black man. I don'tthink he says black. I could be wrong.
But even if he did, I'm having.
A black body, I think.
All right. Okay. So, Eve, sothat's the conundrum, isn't it? Is

(38:32):
that he's not supposed toremember the fugitive doctor. That's
the whole point, isn't it? Ofthat storyline with the 13th doctor.
13th, 14th. Jody's doctor inthat the fugitive doctor was pre
Hartnell and she was part of.What was it? The division.

(38:54):
The division, yeah.
Yeah. And around all thatstoryline with memories being erased
and all that stuff. Thedoctor's not supposed to. To remember
anything about that. It wasn'tuntil that storyline. Yeah. With
Jody's doctor that theystarted to piece that together a
little bit and she starts tobecome aware of the fugitive doctor.

(39:15):
So in this one, it's not untilhe sees Abby or Abena that that triggers
his memory a little Bit, Ithink, and. But up until that point,
I think he was just goingalong the lines of, you know, not
really remembering who shewas. I mean, the Fugitive Doctor.
I mean.
Yeah, no, that's. That kind ofmakes sense, I guess, because I've

(39:35):
kind of forgotten whathappened with all that was all put
in the FOB watch, wasn't it,and dropped into the middle of the
tardis. So, I don't know, it'sall a little. Still a little bit
hazy, that whole storyline.But were you surprised to see the
Fugitive Doctor turn up? Wedid. You gasp, oh, my gosh, she's
back.
Yeah. Just because I didn'texpect to see her back. Yeah, well,

(39:59):
when we went to the CapitalEvent, Joe Martin was there and we.
We attended a panel with her,a Q A. And she doesn't let it slip,
did she? She didn't. Not. Noton the nose. But she did have a little
smile on her face when one ofthe audience members asked her, the
last time that we saw theFugitive Doctor on screen, is that

(40:20):
the last time we're going tosee her?
Right.
She kind of had a little grinon her. She didn't say anything,
but she had a little smile andeverybody just sort of took that
as, okay, we'll read betweenthe lines in this scenario, you know,
so. But I'd completelyforgotten about that watching this
episode. So, yeah, when shepopped up, I was like, okay, right,

(40:40):
so we're back to. We're backto sort of to this thing with the
Fugitive Doctor. So how myinitial thought was, once the episode
had finished, was it wasreally cool to see Joe Martin because
she was great. But is Russellgonna dive down into some of this
timeless child stuff a bit more?

(41:04):
Yes, that's what I'm thinking,mate. Yeah. Because I. Yes, I was
pleased to see her. I thought,oh, Fugitive Doctor. Wasn't expecting
that. And then. But I wassurprised how brief the scene was.
It was like. It really was ablink and you'll miss it to the point
that I actually was. So Ithink actually turns me off and spoke
over the scenes. Oh, my God,Joe. You know, fugitive dots back

(41:26):
and then turned and she'dalready gone off the screen. And
I was like, oh, hang on, whywas she back? What was that? So,
you know, I had to go back andrewatch it to find out what she actually
said and why she was there,because it was so brief. And I am
like you, hoping that there'smore to this and perhaps she's gonna
turn up again in the final.Because I would Hate to think they

(41:47):
brought her back. Got her alldressed up in that outfit, which,
I mean, gosh, it looks. I'd bebaking under all those clothes. She's
wearing so much stuff. Youknow what I mean? Get her all dressed
up to do that five secondclip. Come on. You know, that's.
I don't think that's fair onher as an actor. You know, she's
got such potential to be agood doctor, you know that? To just

(42:09):
have a turn every now andagain, say one line and vanish. It's.
She deserves more, mate,really, is what I'm saying. So I
am hoping this plays into thebigger picture because I don't know
if that's all we get. To me,it feels such a waste. But it was
nice to see her make a littlecameo this week. But I definitely

(42:30):
hope there's more to it, mate.I really do.
Yeah, I would say so. Judgingby Joe Martin's response at that
Q and A, I think. I don'tthink this is the last time her character
gets some screen time. Yeah.
Do you think. Do you thinkwe'll see her in the final?
Oh, I'm not sure, mate. Don'tknow about that. But I don't think
it's the last time we've seenher on screen. Yeah.

(42:53):
Have you checked out any ofthe Big Finish stuff, just out of
interest? I mean, I haven't,but I'm curious to hear what she's
like on Big Finish. Justwondered if you'd delved in yet.
No, I might do that at some point.
Yeah. Yeah. But her cameo wasreally cool. And it also was a good
visual way of. Of explainingwhy the Doctor recognized Abby. So

(43:16):
we. We dived immediately intowhen the Doctor does, remember. So
this is after the barber triesto spin a bit of a yarn to the Doctor
about who he actually is. Andthen when the Doctor unravels that,
he then, you know, when. WhenAbby, you know, gives him a bit of
a, you know, if looks couldkill moment again, he. He sort of

(43:37):
clicks in his brain and, youknow, that's when we have the thing.
Okay. This happened like, way,way, way back. Like, way back. Like,
I don't want to open a can ofworms here, dude, but this obviously
happened, like, way beforeHartnell, you know, and those of
us that are, you know, verymuch a staunch.

(43:59):
You.
Know, Doctor Who is Doctor Whofrom the first Doctor and some fans,
like. And I mean it when I saythis, Hartnell, as in the first Doctor,
you know, if you're that typeof fan, then you're not going to
be too keen on this, but, youknow, if you buy into this whole
timeless child thing and theDoctor having many, many incarnations

(44:20):
before Hartnell, then thishappened long, long time ago.
Yes. Yeah. So, yeah, it is acan of worms. We. We could probably
do a whole podcast on that. Soperhaps best leave it there. But
she. She wasn't the only oneto return, mate. There was another
returning character which tookme by surprise. Probably even more
is that we saw baby Poppy fromSpace Babies. Now, I'm telling you

(44:45):
now, if we, if we are gettinga sequel to Space Babies, that could
be me done. But yeah, we sawPoppy back and it is actually in
the credits listed as Poppythe from Space Baby. So it is supposed
to be the same character. Now,what's that about? And do you know
what, I'm just gonna sayquickly, I kind of like the mystery.

(45:05):
I hope it's gonna have somesort of payoff. But what was Baby
Poppy doing back?
Honestly, don't know, dude.That. That was a. That was a weird
one for me because it's noteven the Doctor that sees Poppy.
It's Belinda. So what's theconnection between. Between space
babies and Poppy and Belinda?Belinda wasn't even around at this

(45:29):
point in the Doctor's timestream. So, yeah, I'm not sure what
the connection is there. Itfelt to me like, oh, you know, in
some weird horror films or scifi films, whatever, this has happened
quite a few times wheresomebody has seen somebody that guides

(45:50):
them somewhere and then itturns out that it's been like a hallucination
or figment of their mind orsomething like that.
Yeah.
So it felt like that felt likePoppy was there for a reason. Sort
of guide Belinda to thebarbershop to find the Doctor. But
I'm not sure why it was thatcharacter from that episode. Like,

(46:10):
what's the. What? I can't. Ican't join the dots basically with
that one at the moment. Butagain, it's something that might
pop up in finale futureepisode. I don't know.
Could it be? Because, and I'veonly just remembered, there is another
underlying Ark mystery whichactually has not been mentioned much

(46:33):
this series, which issurprising. But don't forget, there
was a whole setup, thismystery setup in Belinda's first
episode about the fact thatshe looks like the character that
was in Boom. And the Doctorwas like, oh, there's a similar.
That's not been mentionedsince. Is it that whole mystery that's
kind of been forgotten about?I mean, I'm Assuming that's gonna

(46:55):
get answered, otherwise whymake it into a story in the first
episode? So could it play intothat? I don't know. I'm intrigued
to see where that's going. Ihope that's not just gonna fizzle
out and be forgotten about or.Because it's odd that hasn't been
mentioned, doesn't it? Likewe've mentioned the fact that the
Doctor. Every week, you know,it's a bit rinse and repeat, oh,

(47:16):
I want to go home. I can't getyou home. We're nearly there. But
instead of having that everyweek, we could have been reminded
about. Yeah, you look a bitlike. What were they called that,
Captain Monday or something. Idon't know, you know, could have
been that storyline could havebeen brought up to remind the viewer.
Because I bet. Had you evenremembered that storyline until I
just mentioned it? Because I.I'd completely forgotten about it
until you started talkingabout, you know, Poppy and could

(47:39):
that lead somewhere else?Which triggered my memory that. Oh,
we've got another thread thathasn't been answered. So that storyline's
fizzled out a bit.
Yeah. And we're running out ofepisodes as well next, I'm thinking.
Yeah, I don't think anything'sgoing to happen next week because
we've got that intergalacticsong called. It's like Eurovision
on steroids.
Oh, that's going to be such aninteresting review next week.

(48:03):
So. Yeah, I honestly don't.That to me looks like another isolated
story to me based on thetrailer. So I don't. I could be wrong,
of course, have been many,many times, but I don't think there's
going to be any big bombshellsdropped next week. I think we're
gonna have to wait for the.The next. Presumably a two part finale
the week after that kicks off.

(48:24):
Yeah, I mean the finale's gota lot of stuff to. To to land, isn't
it? The Mrs. Flood thing as well.
Yeah, she wasn't in it thatmuch this week. She was only in it
in Belinda's flashback when,you know, when the Doctor was telling
the story of Belinda and.
Yeah.
How she's such a good personand lovely and stayed with that woman,
saved her life and all that.Mrs. Flood just walks past her and

(48:46):
says hello and she's come toget a medication and that's it. We
don't have any big appeals.Yeah. So, mate, what was that about?
Every episode up to now, we'vehad a nice little very intriguing
moment with Mrs. Flood whereshe's been really cryptic and a little
bit sort of borderlinesinister in a way, but none of that

(49:07):
this week, just a veryfleeting. Yeah, hello.
So I don't know, I'm not surehow else they could have put her
into it. I'm trying to thinknow. Unless they had a riding the
spider on the back.
Yeah, she could have been thespider itself. Face on the front.
That would have been evenmore. I mean, it was a bonkers episode.

(49:27):
Why not? You know?
Yeah, let's move on. Just.Let's rattle through just a couple
of things that we liked anddidn't like before we put a score
on it. I really liked thebarber character, though, to begin
with, you know, at thebeginning of the episode, there was
a few scenes where it's gotthe. It's got Omo in the chair and
he's telling a story. And thenyou got the other guys in the barber

(49:48):
shop. You never see thebarber's face. They sort of had him
cut off screen. You only sawhis body and, like, the lower part
of his face and stuff. It'snot until the Doctor turns up that
they reveal his face. And Ireally liked his character, man.
Arion Bakari, that guy wasbrilliant in this. Yeah, really liked

(50:11):
him.
Unsettling, wasn't he? Heplayed it really well, I thought,
as the villain. I found himquite, Quite creepy.
Yeah. What I liked about himthe most was his vulnerability, because
to begin with, he plays upthis bit of a character, doesn't
he? He's got this bit of falsebravado about him. Yeah. And then
the Doctor presses him andpresses him and he comes up with

(50:32):
this story like he's actuallyone of the gods. You know, he says
that he sort of rattles offthis thing where he said that he
himself was. Was what thegods, like Anansi and Loki and, you
know, tries to scare everybodyinto thinking that, you know, he's
this God, but it turns out hewas just working for the gods. He's

(50:55):
just. He's a bit of a demigod,where he's, you know, he's got sort
of partial sort of powers, ifyou like. And that enabled him to
build this thing called theNexus, where, you know, he was really
proud of this thing with theNexus, and he basically wanted to
be like the ultimatestoryteller. So he built this thing

(51:16):
where he could connect, like,culture and stories and myths and
everything. Called it theNexus, presented it to the gods and
they were just like, yeah,whatever, just very dismissive. And
so he wants to take revengeand you know, get them canceled out
of human culture. But what hedoesn't realize is by doing that,
he's going to unravel humanexistence, essentially, because humans,

(51:37):
you know, rely on. On gods aspart of their, you know, everyday
life and culture andeverything and their belief system.
So. So when the Doctor sort ofsees through that and breaks him
down, he's so vulnerable fromthat point. And then, especially
in the last five minutes ofthe episode, you know, when they're
outside, he gets like a secondchance, doesn't he? Like, everyone's

(52:00):
very forgiving, you know, andwants to give him a second chance
and he's overwhelmed a littlebit. So hats off. And big round of
applause to. To Arion Bakari.Loved his performance, mate.
Yeah, no, I think he was verygood in it, actually. And, I mean,
a few people have pointed outas well. Just something that I noticed

(52:23):
as well, that, you know, hedid get a redemption arc and it did
work for his character, but Iguess it kind of, after the last
couple of weeks, where theDoctor has, you know, laughed at
somebody dying, given a bigold sort of speech to someone in
prison and stuff, you know,was very forgiving towards this character.
But I don't know, to me,that's more Doctor like. So I. I

(52:47):
didn't mind that. But I do getwhy people have picked up that, you
know, the Doctor was a lotmore forgiving this week towards,
you know, the bad guy. Butthat, to me, that's more Doctorish,
mate. So, you know, I actuallywhere I. Whereas I've criticized
shooty a little bit lastcouple of weeks, I found him more
Doctor ish in this episode. Iliked him in this episode a lot more
than I have the last couple ofweeks. What I would have liked to

(53:11):
have said, though, is a bitmore of the friendship between him
and Omo, you know, because Ididn't really feel much chemistry
between those two, althoughthey were both, you know, good in
their parts. I just thoughtthis is supposed to be this Doctor's,
you know, best friend orwhatever, or someone he's got to
know really well. And I feltlike, again, and I think this is

(53:33):
down to the timing of theepisode. I mean, in terms of it was
just a bit rushed and maybe itwould have been nice if we'd have
seen those two in a previousepisode so we already knew. Oh, Mojo.
I mean, it just didn't feelthe friendship or relationship between
the two of them. And thereforeI found it really odd when the Doctor
just seemed to get cross withOmo out of nowhere. I thought that

(53:54):
was a bizarre scene. Again, Ithought I'd missed something on a
first watch. I actually turnedto the other half and was like, why
is he. Why is he having to goOmo for? I didn't get it. And then
on a second watch there isn'treally a build up to that, but I
think these little nickels arejust part of the whole. Trying to
cram everything into 45minutes. It's like, oh, the Doctor
needs to get crossed now sothat he opens the door and we realize

(54:17):
he's not, you know, he can'tescape and all that sort of thing.
So, yeah, that's somethingthat could have breathed more and
maybe a two parter. I thinkthe friendship between those two.
Yeah, that's very true. Ithink that's exactly what is with
the runtime and trying tosqueeze some stuff in.
Yeah.
And interesting as well thatyou say that in the last couple of
episodes and prior in thisseason, the Doctor not acting quite

(54:40):
Doctory that we had expect,like with celebrating someone's death,
you know, all this sort ofthing. His reaction to Omo it, that
was his turn to be undoctoryin this one for me a little bit where
just, yeah, it felt like justthat the, you know, drop of a hat,
he's just snapped on his, onhis mate and, you know, he's not,

(55:02):
it's not like, yeah, you know,it's not like Omo had summoned the
Doctor into a trap, knowingly.Yeah, you know, this was just circumstance,
you know, the Doctor hadturned up out the blue as a coincidence
at this point and has stumbledinto this problem that his mate's
in, you know, so I felt likethat was a little bit unjustified

(55:22):
to, you know, it's not like hewas entrapped into this situation.
So. I don't know.
No, no, I absolutely agreewith you, mate. It was very clunky.
I do absolutely agree with you.
Yeah, I really liked MichelleAsantia's Abena and it was really
cool. It was, it's the classicold, you know, a woman scorned, you

(55:45):
know, that old fable, youknow, there's nothing, I don't know
what the full saying is, butessentially, you know, a woman scorned
is not to be trifled with andholds a bit of, a, bit of a grudge.
So it all goes back to thisthing with the fugitive Doctor, doesn't
it, where there was this betthat, you know, if the Doctor loses

(56:06):
the bet or something likethat, or if Abena lost the bet, then
they'd have to marry theDoctor and they'd go off and stuff,
and the Doctor wasn't havingit. And Joan Martin's doctor said,
you know, quite nicely, and,you know, I'm sorry, darling, but
I had my own beep going on atthe time. You know, I had stuff,
stuff going on, so. And thatall comes good. But she played that

(56:30):
character in two halves reallywell, the first two thirds of the
story, where she played thatvery betrayed, you know, not happy
with the Doctor at all. Iflooks could kill. Yeah, not good.
And then in the last third,where she kind of realizes that she's
been lied to, although she'sin cahoots with the barber, she's.
She's been lied to,essentially, and it's the outcome

(56:53):
that he's told her is not theactual outcome that's going to happen
if he goes through with theplan. So, you know, she's a bit more
forgiving and then, you know,forgives the Doctor and then at the
end she's very happy and goeson about her business, so. But I
really liked her performanceas well, mate. Thought she was good.
Yeah. I'll be honest, she gota little bit lost in the mix the

(57:14):
first time I watched this, butI definitely appreciated more her
performance in the second.Second watch. Yeah.
And I. I don't know thecharacters names, but the. The dudes
that were in the barbershopthat we see throughout the majority
of the episode, I. There'ssort of not one that stands out,
but they've all got their sortof individual personalities. I think

(57:37):
they even say that whenthey're telling the Doctor Who they
are and the people thatthey're missing on the outside and
they can't wait to get back toand stuff. It was really cool to
see that, you know, sort ofband of mates who are petrified of
what's gonna happen to them,but at the same time, they're sort
of chilling out in thebarbershop and not sort of going
on. It kind of links into.Back into the whole. The black culture

(58:01):
thing with barbershops. Anyonethat's seen the Pixar film Soul from
a few years ago, really goodif you've ever dived into the making
of. Of that film. One of theco directors, a guy called Kemp Powers,
he was basically saying thatas a black man, I wanted to try and
get, you know, some kind ofculture into the film. And he said

(58:23):
one of the. One of the bestsort of social interactions is in
a barbershop. If you go into ablack Barbershop, you know, people
spend hours in there, gettheir hair cut and then they're just
in there for another few hoursjust trading stories, hanging out,
gossiping, all the rest of it.So this really plays into that cultural

(58:43):
thing as well. So that wascool. So like I said, I don't know
the whole individual characternames, but those guys that were just
in the barbershop, that wasreally cool vibe. And they're all.
Especially at the end whenthey were smiling and laughing. It's
a bit of a feel. Good at the end.
Yeah, yeah. As an assembledcast, I think everyone, you know,
although those guys didn'tstand out, they definitely all worked

(59:04):
together to create that sortof atmosphere, didn't they? Which
worked really well.
Yeah. Yes. Okay. We spokeabout Shooty and Varada Sethi. So
she's not in it a great deal.She has a few lines, isn't she? But
nothing too crazy. And thenShooty, we spoke about his doctor

(59:25):
in this one. Is there anyoneelse you want to mention, dude, before
anything else, the only otherthing I do want to mention, dude,
is Murray Gold's music. Again,we've gone back to generic sci fi
a little bit and a bit tooloud in the mix. I know it's not
Murray's fault, but whoever'sdoing the audio mixes on this one,

(59:49):
I don't know, I think theywant. I think they want to work on
Marvel films. I think that'stheir vibe. They want to do like
massive high action cinemastyle, you know, sound mixes. But
yeah, it's. It's. Did you sayyou put subtitles on, mate? The second
time.
The second time. I mean, Ithought the audio mix was dreadful

(01:00:10):
this week and I don't think itwas just the. I don't think it's
necessarily the music drowningout the dialogue. Murray's music,
by the way. Fine. This week,nothing amazing, but, you know, it
was nice. But the actual soundmix of the audio, even in the quieter
moments, as I said earlier, Idon't know if it was the actors mumbling
or just a really bad soundmix, but it was bad. Unless my ears

(01:00:31):
are finally gone, whichwouldn't surprise me. But I really
struggled to hear what wasbeing said a lot of the time. So
I put the subtitles on asecond watch to actually try and
get to grips with what wasbeing said.
Same. It was like that. We'vehad that this season. I. Mate, it

(01:00:51):
seems like each episode I'vehad a bit. So I've had to rewind,
hit the old back by 10seconds. And try and pick out what
someone said.
Yeah, It's a common thing withtoday's television, how they make
it. I don't know why, becausethis has been happening for years,
isn't it? Where people havesaid, music's too loud, I can't hear
it. I mean, when I go back andwatch the Series 1 DVD, you know,

(01:01:13):
Eccleston, the sound mix isreally bad at times. The music's,
you know, blaring out and thenyou have to turn it down and you
turn it back up to hear thedialogue. So it's know, how is it
still being made like this?It's as if they think everyone's
got 5.1 sound systems in theirhouse. You know, I'm pretty sure
that's how they mix it. Theymust have a, you know, in their big
studio, they must have realgood surround sound and it probably

(01:01:34):
sounds great, but when you'rewatching on just a normal television,
it's, it's not, not good. Theonly other thing I've got on my list,
mate, is I just put. I thoughtI was interested. The Doctor says
the TARDIS cuts his hair. Ithought that was interesting. Like,
I'd like to see how thatworks. And I did think the whole
thing. And again, this is areal thing that they, you know, that

(01:01:55):
happens and they put it intothe episode and was quite interesting
to see was when they, youknow, braided the Doctor's hair to
make a map. I thought, youknow, that was a lovely, lovely idea
and something that, as I said,I think they used to do. So it's
quite educational and, youknow, I thought it was a nice way
to actually wrap up theepisode and actually have him escape
by having the map in his hairand stuff. So I thought that was

(01:02:17):
really cool.
Agreed on that. Yeah. And theactual design of the spider and stuff,
you know, walking through onits web and, and all that stuff is
sort of symbolically very cool.
He actually called it theWorld Wide Web, didn't he? I mean,
he had to. Yeah, okay, comeon, you know.
Yeah, that was a little bitobvious, wasn't it? Like, okay, yeah,

(01:02:40):
writers doing writery things,you know, for the sake of the viewer
to, you know, we need to makesure the viewer gets what we're talking
about in this line ofdialogue. So we'll go right on the
nose. We'll go really over thetop obvious. Yeah, yeah, yeah, dude.
The audio mix is done by athird party company.

(01:03:03):
Well, they should be sacked.
No lie. Bang. Post Productionin Cardiff handled the, the post
audio mixing etc. Andinterestingly enough, though, they
handled series two of theSarah Jane adventures, and that was
okay. And series one of class.So, mate, go back and watch class

(01:03:27):
all from the beginning.
Oh, I'd love to.
Let us know what it's like,the audio, please.
Yeah, I'll do that straightaway, mate. As soon as you finish,
I'll get it on. Oh, damn. Idon't think they have it over here
in the U.S. oh, no. I'd loveto buy the Blu Ray.
Right, anything else on thenotes? Let's have a look. Yeah, I

(01:03:48):
was just gonna pick up on the.The cool design for the big brain
at the back of the barbershop, which was, you know, in the
beating heart, which is thebarber's, you know, thing, and. And
all that was pretty good. Oh,and I really liked the way that the
Doctor had finished off thewhole. The engine that needed this
fuel via way of stories wherehe used Hemingway's short six word

(01:04:12):
story. And he did it in a waythat was like, you know, I am born.
I am, and I'm born and stuff.So essentially just overloading the,
you know, the spider'scognitive ability to process that,
and it just went intooverload. And that was pretty sweet.
Yeah, I like the brain, mate.I got flashbacks to the whole time
in the Rani brain. You know,when she had it up in that room.

(01:04:34):
Kind of reminded me of that.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
But visually, I really likethis episode, mate. I think visually
it was lovely. All the artstuff and the brain and all that,
it's all good. It looked goodas an episode, I thought, yes.
All right, let's whack a scoreon it then. Dude, she needs to go
first.
Yeah, I'm gonna give it a 6.5this week, I think. I think the writer,

(01:04:59):
he's delivered a good script,but I think Russell, and we all know
he likes to get his fingers inand, you know, put his own little
bits into script. I thinkRussell should have said, right,
you've delivered a good scripthere. But I need to just, you know,
need to just make a couple oflittle alterations to make this work
because to me, it was close tobeing, you know, quite a good story,

(01:05:20):
but just, yeah, just got toomuddled. So I can't really go any
higher than that. 6.5.
6.5. Okay. I'm gonna give thisa seven out of ten. Yes, I. I quite
like this one. It wasn't.There was a lot to like about it,
as I said at the beginning,and I loved some of the performances
and the overall, the storywas. Was reasonably good and I love

(01:05:43):
the cultural setting and allthat stuff. It's really cool. But
I can't go any higher thanthat just because of, again, what
I mentioned earlier, where itfeels like it's there, it's almost
there, but it's just gettingstuck in a certain gear in terms
of narrative and some piecessort of, you know, slotting into

(01:06:04):
place. So I. I'm watching itin little pockets of brilliance and
I'm thinking, yeah, this bit'sgood and that bit's good. But when
I finish watching it, I'mlike, okay, that was cool, that was
good, I enjoyed it. But I'mnot walking away thinking, that was
amazing. Like, that wasabsolutely amazing. And I'm itching
to watch next week. I'm justnot feeling that right now. But that

(01:06:26):
aside, I do think this was a.A solid watch. So I'm going to stick
with a 7.
7. Talking to next week, mate.Are you a Eurovision fan? I get the
feeling you're not sure.
I'm not, mate. I think it'sthe most boring blow. I know you
like it, but I think I get sobored, mate.
Honestly, I have that. Inprevious years I have enjoyed Eurovision

(01:06:47):
quite a lot. I'd been to acouple of Eurovision parties. I can't
remember. I don't know. It'sgoing to be an interesting one next
week. I think it's a geniusidea to actually do a doctor Eurovision
episode before Eurovision. Howthat will pay off, we shall see.
I'm actually really lookingforward to next week. Or this week
even.
This week's Indeed. Yes. Okaythen. So on that note, on a song

(01:07:12):
note, let's end it there forepisode 424, mate.
Tada.

(01:07:45):
Thank you so much forlistening to another episode of the
Big Blue Box podcast. That was424. And our review of the story
and the engine wear it was a6.5 from him and a 7 from me. We'll
be back next week to reviewthis week's episode of the Rylan's
big Doctor Who debut.

(01:08:07):
He's the Master. I'm callingit now. He's the master is he's got
a beard and a mustache. Hemust be.
Oh, we shall see. It's thelast one in the series before Russell
takes back writing duties, sowe will see what goes on with that
one. But stay tuned for ourreview of that next next week. You
can do that by making sure youare following along in whatever podcast

(01:08:31):
app of choice you listen toyour podcast on that way you won't
miss a notification when itdrops and you can listen to all the
back catalog and all thatstuff from many years of us waffling
about Doctor Who. You can alsolisten online over at bigblueboxpodcast.co.uk.
you can also check out thereviews from the writing team and
their editorials, etc. Linksto the show notes, links to the socials

(01:08:52):
should I say are on thewebsite and the link to the Discord
server. Hop in there and chatlots of Doctor Who goodness with
other who fans. Don't forgetto remember to check out my co host
channel once again on YouTube.Once again it is the Geeks Handbag.
The Geek Sandbag. Also on allthe socials under the same name,
the Geek Sandbag.

(01:09:13):
Go and check him out. So yeswe will be back next week and who
knows what's going to happenin next week review? I really don't
know but we look forward to itnonetheless. So until then my name's
Garry. My name's Adam and remember.