Roundtable June 2025: S2 Wrap-Up and the Future of Doctor Who

Hey, Who fans and welcome to the [Month] Round Table!

The team is all here as we wrap up Season 2 with their thoughts, both good and bad. Did it stick the landing for this lot, or are they eager to get this latest era of Doctor Who long behind us?

There's plenty of in-depth chat as always, plus a few laughs, so grab a cold drink (or a cuppa in this heat) and enjoy.

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Join us each week for a new episode every Friday from your hosts Garry and Adam. We talk news, reviews, commentaries and general chat on everything Doctor Who PLUS listen to our monthly Round Table episodes with the whole team. Check out our website where you can also listen to all of our episodes for free along with the amazing reviews and articles from our writing team.

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Have a fantastic week and until next time remember... Aaaaaaaaaaallons-y!

Episode Transcript

(00:19):
Hey, hey, hey, hey, fans andwelcome to the Big Blue Box Podcast.
My name's Garry.
I'm Jordan.
My name's Matt.
I'm Maria.
My name's Harry.
And welcome to the June Roundtable.
Yeehaw.
Yay.

(00:46):
Thank you everybody for comingback and listening to another monthly
bonus episode. This is ofcourse the roundtable. Thank you
very much for hopping back into listen to this lot and what they
think of stuff to do withDoctor who. Is it the current series?
Is it old stuff? Is it news?Is it character options? Vortex edition

(01:06):
figures? Who knows? What we doknow is that we haven't heard from
these guys since the end ofShoot. His ear was wrapped up. So
Wish World, the reality war,all done and dusted. Shoot, he's
buggered off. We don't know ifDoctor who's coming back next year
or in five years, who knows?So we're up in limbo at the moment.
But one thing that's not inlimbo, as I said, it's the round

(01:31):
table with these guys. Who arewe missing? Who are we missing? Adam's
not here. Adam's not. Adamhasn't jumped in on this one. So
let's introduce the gang.They're all here as usual. Jordan,
how are you, sir?
I'm very good, thank you,Garry. Yeah.
Now your post. First,congratulations to Jordan, everybody.

(01:52):
He's just wrapped up his firstyear at uni. Come on. Very good.
I'm knackered, but I'veenjoyed every minute of it, so it's
fine. Even the 6 o' clock wakeup time.
Oh yeah, because you didn'tstay on, on campus, did you?
Yeah, yeah, I was. Partypooper. I didn't fancy staying in

(02:13):
campus of I other students.God, dear. No, thank you.
Not for me. Thank you.
No, but no, I'm good, I'mgood. I'm looking forward to this
because I think this will bea, a polarizing episode. Let's think.

(02:33):
Because I'm. I'm still notentirely sure how I feel about Wish
World and the reality war. Soit'll be interesting to hear what
everybody else thinks becauseI'm still like. I don't know.
Yeah, polarizing is a goodword. I think that'd be.
I was thinking, is that theright word? But it must be the right

(02:53):
word. It's fine.
Yeah, good. Nice one, dude.Matt, you alright, dude?
Yes, very well, thank you,Garry. Yeah, just same as Jordan.
I can't wait to hear whateverybody thinks about the, the finale
and the, the two parter. Ithink it's going to be rather explosive,

(03:17):
shall we say. But, yeah, noDoctor who. Do you know what? I've
been. I've been proper old thelast couple weeks and I haven't done
hardly any Doctor who. That'sa lie, actually. I've listened to
some big finish. I've donethat and what I've listened to has
been very, very good. So I'msurprising, I'm. I don't normally

(03:38):
gravitate towards the fifthDoctor, but I have delved into the
Hook Light, part one and parttwo, the recent adventures that they've
released with Sarah Sutton,Janet Fielding and Matthew Waterhouse
and they're. Oh, if youhaven't listened to them yet, go

(04:01):
and do that. It's some of thebest big finish that I've listened
to for a while. It's, it's.Yeah, it's real sort of knock your
socks off brilliance, youknow. But aside from that, I've just
been doing boring adult stuff.You know, I was, I've, I've got a
list of chores from the, from,from the missus and I've just been
piling my way through them.But I think I'm gonna have to make

(04:26):
some sort of deal as if I dothem all, I get to buy some more
Doctor who stuff.
Well, that's not a badexchange. That's not bad. That's
not. No, it's a. Yeah, I wasgonna say, yeah, there are worse.
You could have bargainedsomething and come out of that a
lot worse. So, yes, okay. Imean, how's the Dalek come along?

(04:46):
The build?
You know what, this, all thisadult stuff that I've just. Lame
adult stuff. I know, I know.I've let myself down. I've let you
guys down. I, I've let theDalek down. I haven't managed to
do any.
Built mine.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

(05:07):
Shame on you, Matt. I've beenwaiting for pictures. Come on, you've
got, you've got a whole threadin discord all about it. Come on.
I do. And listeners, there issome exciting developments with that.
I am just working out how todo a top down camera view. Then I'm
going to do some sort of cooledits, you know, techno skills being,

(05:32):
you know, providing. I will dosome cool stuff. So that's, that's
to come, hopefully. I've got afew that I've already done that unfortunately
are just going to be pictures,but after that I'm hoping towards
maybe next week, the weekafter. I'm hoping to have a few in
the Can. And I can put somereally cool video edits on for you

(05:54):
guys to have a look at.
Interesting, Matt, that you'vecurrently. Okay, okay.
A big let down. Yeah.
All right, all right. That'sokay. That's okay. You're allowed
one as you go through theprocess, mate. Just get on top of
it, get the camera anglesorted back on it, and then, yes,

(06:14):
sir, we'll be forgiven. Cool.Right, that's Matt and the Dalek
build. Let's come to a halt.Maria, how are you doing these days?
Now that. Now that Doctor whohas wrapped up in fine fashion, how
are you doing?
How am I doing? Yeah, I'mgood. I went. I went back to classic

(06:37):
who recently, and I actuallywatched Time in the Rani. It's never
been one of my favoritestories, if I'm honest, but I thought,
obviously, given. Given whatwe've seen recently, I thought I'll
go back and just kind ofrefresh myself on who the character

(06:58):
is. Kind of watch Mel in heryounger days, and it was good fun.
I mean, I. You know, it's.It's not a bad script in some ways.
I mean, it's very traditional,kind of Doctor who. Yeah. I still
can't get over to Weston McCoykind of playing the spoons on Kate

(07:20):
O' Mara's chest. But, youknow, aside from that, it was fine.
You know, it was. It was good.I mean, it. It was very colorful
for the day, you know, so, youknow, they obviously went mad with
the. The palette box. So, youknow, it was fine. It was fine. So
I think that was the onlyDoctor who thing that I've done recently.

(07:43):
But, yeah, it was fine.
Nice. Yeah. You know, I don'tmind Time in the Rani. I don't. I
don't mind that one. It's.Yeah, I don't think it's one of McCoy's
best, but he's. He's doing allright. Did you appreciate the blonde
wig at the beginning, the. Inthe region?
Oh, do you know what? Youforget about these things sometimes

(08:06):
when you haven't watched thestory for such a long time. I mean.
I mean, it is a terrible wig.I mean, you know, I don't know where
they got it from, but, youknow, it definitely didn't fit him
very well. I mean, they didthe best that they could, I suppose,
with, you know, given the factthat Colin wasn't going to come back
and, you know, film hisregeneration, you know, fair enough.

(08:28):
You know, he got kind of axedfrom the show, so, you know, I can
understand that. I Mean, itwas a real shame that they. The way
they did it, really. Isuppose. I mean, could they have
done it another way? Possibly,you know, but I suppose at least.
At least they did theregeneration. It's not one of the
greatest ones. I mean, myfavorite has always been Peter Davison's

(08:54):
regeneration as the fifthDoctor. I think that's always been
my favorite. And. And TomBaker's fourth Doctor has always
been a, you know, one thatI've kind of really liked as well.
So it's not my favoriteregeneration, but I suppose at least
he got a regeneration, so.Yeah, it was fine. It was fine. That's

(09:14):
all I'm going to say. It'sfine. It's classic who you make,
you know, you make allowancesbecause. Yeah, they didn't. They
didn't have a lot of money,did they, so. Yeah, that's true,
yeah. I mean, they could haveprobably turned the lights down,
to be honest, when they kindof. I suppose when they got into
the tardis and. And the Ranisays that, you know, immortal line,

(09:39):
leave the girl, it's the man Iwant. You know, they could have.
They could have maybe had theTARDIS in darkness, maybe they could
have turned all those lightsdown and maybe it would have been
a bit more effective. But heyho, yeah.
Yeah. It's back in the day,wasn't it? TV that was studio based.
Just. Just whack all thelights on. Yeah, all the time. Just
leave them. Yep.

(09:59):
Yeah.
Don't.
Don't think about theelectricity bill. Just put all the
lights on, you know.
Yeah. Do you know what? I'venot watched any thinking about it
now that you've said that,I've not watched any stories, any
regeneration stories in awhile. Oh, yeah, Like, I've not seen
Caves in a long time. What's.What's Davison's last words is it

(10:23):
feels different this time. Is it?
Oh, yeah.
Is it?
No, I don't think it is. Is it?
Is it?
I think it's Andrew.
I think it is, yeah.
Okay.
Although there's. Obviously.
Because he says the line is.

(10:44):
And then the chameleon pops up.
Yeah. I don't know.
Is this Death? That's right,yeah, something like that. Crikey.
I've got to go back and watchCaves. It's such a good story, that
one as well. Really good. Oh,dear. Bloody Spectrox, whatever it's
called. Right, Maria, I'm gladyou're. You're doing okay. As well

(11:04):
as can be expected, given the circumstances.
More on that later.
Garry and Harry, good sir, howare you?
Hello. Hi, I'm good, Garry.Yeah, not too bad. I went to a convention
recently and had a great time.That was my Doctor. Oh yeah, yeah,
yeah, My Doctor who relatedthing for this month. Besides, we'll

(11:28):
get into it later, the realitywar. But yeah, it was cracking. Really
good day. So I went to MCON inNottingham. I had such a great time
meeting Anita Dobson inCapital Cutaway. I had to meet her
again. So yeah, we had a photoand she let me put the scarf around
her which was great. And yeah,she's Anita Dobson, honestly is one

(11:51):
of the loveliest people I'vemet at a convention. She is just
so nice and so friendly. So,yeah, a real joy to meet her. I really
recommend if you head to aconvention and she's there, definitely,
definitely get an auto or aphoto. And yeah, and I also had my
photo with Peter Davison. Hewas in full Doctor costume, he was

(12:14):
in front of his TARDISexterior. So it was a really special
photo. I should probably put aphoto in the Discord chat just so
everyone can have a look atit. But yeah, it was great. I, so
I was only going to get aphoto with Peter and I was milling
around the, the conventionfloor and you know, there are lots

(12:34):
of like traders there likeselling like figures and, and like
someone was selling like somevirgin new adventures and Long Barrow
was going for about £200. Iwas like, whoa. Like the amount of
money some people would spendon Long Barrow is crazy to me. But
I was going to spend a bunchof money on just tat, basically.

(12:57):
And then I thought, do youknow what? I don't get this opportunity
often. I'm gonna get a jointphoto shoot with Peter Davison and
Paul McGann in costume infront of the TARDIS. So I got another
photo with, with the both ofthem and yeah, it's one of my favorite
all time photos I think I'vegot at a convention. I don't normally

(13:19):
get starstruck anymore atthese things. I tend to just, you
know, you know, likecelebrities are just people like
the rest of us, you know, So Idon't, I don't tend to get starstruck.
But there was something aboutthat photo made me feel really emotional,
you know, it made me feellike, oh, it's so great to be a Doctor
who fan and to have momentslike these, you know. So, yeah, that

(13:41):
was lovely. So I'll probablyget that framed and put it on my
wall so that I can look at itwhile I'm working Or recording podcasts
or whatever. So, yeah, thatwas a. That was a really brilliant
day. And, yeah, it just makesme excited for Hooverville, which
we've got coming up. I thinkmyself and Maria will be there in

(14:02):
August in Derby. So, yeah, getyour tickets. And I believe we're
going to be doing Capital, theCapital event next year. Got to get.
Saving my pennies for thatone, but that should be pretty good.
So. Yeah, so that was a realhighlight. That was. That was fantastic.
You know, I mean, spoileralert. There was a bit of a bad taste

(14:27):
in my mouth from that seriesfinale, so it was nice to kind of
realize. Oh, actually, I doreally love Doctor who. It was good.
It was good.
I was gonna say the photo youput in the chat was Paul McGann,
actually. Still looksfantastic. That man never ages. I

(14:47):
mean, I. I met him a few yearsago at the. There was an event at
the Leicester Space Station.You know, I know that you've been
there, Harry, and, you know,he's a fantastic ambassador for the
show, as is Peter Davison aswell. You know, they're fantastic
ambassadors for the show and,you know, and neither of them seem

(15:11):
to age that much, to behonest. I mean, they both still look
fantastic.
They do.
This is true.
Yeah. And they looked reallydapper, like, in their costume still,
you know, it was really cool.Yeah. It's always good when you get
a photo of them in theircostume. Absolutely. Yeah.

(15:32):
Awesome. Yeah, that picturewas really cool with McGann and.
Is it McGann and Davison, thetwo of them? Yes, yes. Yeah, Very
cool. Right, so busy beavers,this lot with stuff. Some of it who
related? Some of it not Matt.Not. Is anyone picking up the character

(15:58):
figure?
No.
David Tennant and the Meep.
Nah, I'll do better next month.
You do, Yeah. I think this isa character's second exclusive of
the year so far this year,apparently. And, yeah, I was gonna
get it. I was gonna pick itup, look pretty cool. Then I saw
the price and I was like, Idon't think I can. Yeah, just not

(16:21):
sure it's worth.
That's what I was like. 50quid price tag.
Yeah, exactly.
I would have been interestedif it were plush. A Meep plush. But,
yeah, not. Not too keen on. Ona Meep figure. I don't think I was
gonna say that, actually. Iwanted a Fluffy. A fluffy meep.

(16:44):
Yeah.
Yeah, man.
It was shown, wasn't it? Therewas a massive meep plush shown at
one of the toy fairs and Ijust. I hope they still plan on Releasing
it at some point, because I'dlove to have that. Just. It looked
beautiful and so screenaccurate and cuddly and, you know,
you'd just love to have it inyour collection.

(17:04):
But it'll be just like theseries 10 soundtrack. It will just
go into the ether. We'llnever, never see the light day.
We'll see it in like, 2080 orsomething like that. And they'll
say, oh, yeah, sorry, yeah,forgot about this one. Oh, it's in
our release schedule, youknow, But I don't know with this
set, I think it's, it's alovely set and it's, it's charming

(17:27):
as well. It's, it's. They'vegone the extra mile with it with
all the different swappablehands and, and head for Happy Meep
and. And Mad Meep, as it were.And the 14th doctor without his coat
looks. Yeah, it looks, looksgreat. I mean, the head sculpt on

(17:49):
the 14th Doctor, I think it's.It is what it is. I don't think they're
going to get better than whatthey, they have. I just, I look at
it and I think it's not reallythe 14th doctor, but it's just the
price tag for me. Because youall know, and listeners are well

(18:11):
aware that I am a sucker formerchant, real sucker for merch.
And I'm constantly being toldoff by the better half, stop spending
all our money on Doctor whotoys. You're a grown man. And I'm
like, yeah, I know I'm a grownman. I can buy whatever I want. And
it just so happens to beDoctor who toys. But this, this is

(18:34):
a bit much. I think 45 quid isjust a bit too much for me. If it
was 29.99, like, the. What was29.99 were the, the TARDIS sets.
With the Joe Martin TARDISset. Was that. No, hang on. Was it
the John pertwee with the 39screwdriver? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it

(18:58):
was definitely one of thosesets. And, and the, the sonic screwdriver
by itself and it. That was thekind of price range I think they
should top out at going. Iknow that they've got an entirely
new sculpt for the Meep, andthat is costly and I get that. But
at what point do you got toabsorb some of that cost as a company?

(19:19):
Because otherwise you're justgoing to price yourself way out of
the market for, like, 80% ofconsumers. That's my take on it.
Yeah, there's the merch guy.In depth.
I'll tell you what I would buyif they released it, you know, in
Wild Blue Yonder. TheDoctor's. The Doctor's double. When

(19:39):
he was like, my arms are toolong. I'd get like one of those,
like, stretchy things, like,you know. You know, those, like,
stretchy men that they used tosell. I'd get, like, a stretchy fortune.
Yeah, yeah, that's the one.I'd get all Stretch Armstrong. And
then when you stretch it outtoo far, there's a little. There's
a little voice box inside ofit that goes, my arms are too long.
That'd be great.

(20:03):
Oh, Harry, you've missed yourcalling, I think, mate.
Yeah, Character should hireme. I'm full of ideas. I'll give
you all one of my ideas.
Well, the CEO of Characterdoes listen, of course, along with
every other person who's everbeen involved with Doctor who listens.

(20:24):
So, yeah, give Harry a nudge.He's got it all sorted out. So, alrighty,
let's get on to the subjectsthat we're all here for. These guys
are here for it. The listenersare here for it. We need to dive
into the end of season two,the end of shoot, his run, where
he's been unceremoniouslypicked up by his collar and thrown

(20:46):
out into the cosmic corridor,or the cosmic alleyway where there's
a dumpster on fire and otherwho actors just knocking around.
And so you would have heardmine and Adam's thoughts on this
on our episode last week. AndI think on that episode, we either

(21:07):
mentioned it on the episode orbefore or after we recorded something
along the lines of, yeah, thewriting team are going to have a
field day, because Ipersonally know of at least two of
them who are not. Not feelingit, should we say. But it's a surprise
for two, for the other two. SoI'm literally up in the air as to

(21:31):
what you think. So let's startoff with. Because as hard as it might
be for a couple of you, I dowant to try and inject some kind
of positive outlook on it insome way of if there's things that
you guys didn't like or didn'tenjoy, I'd love to sort of counterbalance
it somewhat with things thatyou did enjoy. There must have been

(21:53):
at least. At least one thingthat you. You didn't mind you didn't
enjoy. Sorry. That you enjoyedfrom it. So let's start off with
the bad stuff first, though,and we'll. We'll circle back and
come back to the positivestuff. So we all know there's negative
thoughts. So who wants to jumpin first with their, with their thoughts

(22:15):
on it? You can give us yourthoughts on the two parter. You can
give us your thoughts on justa reality war, a combination of both
and your feeling on. Shoot.His last bit of Doctor who. So he
wants to jump in. Who's goingto jump in?
We all went to the cinema,didn't we? We all went to cinema

(22:36):
to see. See it. I think we alldid, didn't we?
I didn't. You guys did.
Garry. Yeah, Garry, I thinkyou were the only one sensibly didn't.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, to behonest, I did. I didn't. I didn't
begrudge going to the cinemato watch it because I thought, okay,
it's the finale. I knew, Iknew, I knew I probably wouldn't

(22:57):
like it, but I thought, I'llgo, I'll go anyway. I'll put myself
through. Through watching. Oh,my God. What was the name of the
first episode? Wish. What wasit called? Wish World. Yeah, sorry
it's that bad. Yeah. So Ithought, can I put myself through

(23:17):
watching Wish World again? AndI thought, okay, I probably can because,
you know, sometimes when I'mat home watching tv, I don't catch
everything. And, you know,maybe, maybe I didn't understand
it and it didn't make sense tome. Me, you know, I'm being, you
know, I'm being. I'm beingprobably a bit harsh on myself in

(23:41):
that respect. So I thought,I'll go and I'll watch it again.
So I mean, I, I find the wholeconcept that, you know, that we've,
that we've done with the wholeseries, this thing about gods and,
you know, and obviously it wasmeant to be a big thing and throughout
the whole series, but in allhonesty, the whole gods thing kind

(24:04):
of didn't really. Didn'treally amount to much. You know,
if. If we're talking about,you know, the Big Bad that was meant
to be. We don't even know ifwe've met the Big Bad because Anita
said, you know, the boss sayshello, whatever that means. And I
don't really care to be honestat this stage. If I'm honest. Yeah,

(24:27):
you want me to be honest. So Idon't really care. But, you know,
if, if we're talking aboutgods and the idea that Omega is now
this person that's beentransformed in the underverse into
a God. Yeah, I'm sorry, I justdidn't buy any of it. You know, I'll

(24:50):
be honest with you, I thoughtthe. The final episode was terrible.
That's what I said. I thinkyou all knew my reaction. I think
we all reacted immediatelyafter we'd seen it at the cinema
and it was like, what wasthat? You know, what has just happened?
You know, I think. I don'tthink the episode went where I would
have expected it to go. Idon't think. I don't think any of

(25:14):
the characters in it wereserved particularly well. I mean,
we had, you know, Belinda, whowas our companion for this series
that started out reallystrong, you know, but after Lux just
seemed to kind of diminish.You know, there's something about

(25:36):
her becoming a mother that Ikind of, you know, I just find it.
It wasn't really very wellsignposted, it wasn't seeded in the
series. There was nothing inher character that we met that said
she wanted to be a mother. Sothis, this emphasis of the episode

(25:58):
where, you know, there's thisemotional heft that, you know, the
whole story becomes about theexistence of Poppy. You know, I just
didn't buy it at all. I justthought it was the most over sentimentalized
story. I just. I didn't feelany of that kind of emotional pull

(26:22):
that I was meant to feel aboutit. You know, I thought the whole
story was we were going tomeet Omega. You know, that was the
whole thing of the Raniappearing and saying, you know, this
is the big badge. I think theproblem was that Omega didn't appear
in the episode. He should havereally appeared in the cliffhanger
probably between the episodesand then something should have been

(26:43):
done with him further, but hedidn't. He kind of appeared for about
three minutes and then he waskind of dispatched and. And there's
all this thing about theDoctor kind of blasting him back
with the Vindicator, you know,and doing something that felt a bit
kind of. Do you remember thoseRambo films that they used to have
in the 80s where Rambo had hisgun and off, you know, and he'd just

(27:07):
shoot everyone and it was kind of.
Oh, yeah.
And it was kind of a bit likethat. It was kind of so strange.
I mean, you know, they lockedBelinda in a box for, you know, the
zero box or Zero Room,whatever it was for most of the episode.
She was kind of locked awaywith Poppy, so nothing really happened
with her. So all of that last,I'd say the last half an hour of

(27:31):
it, bar the regeneration, Isuppose, was all about Poppy and,
you know, and that story and Ijust. I just didn't feel. Feel anything
with it, you know, it wasn't.It wasn't what. We were sold in some
respects. And I don't thinkany of the characters were kind of
used really well. I mean, wehad Mel returning, you know, she
didn't do very much. She had afew words with the Rani. I was saying

(27:55):
to a friend, I really wouldhave loved it if they'd had a cat
fight. You know, that wouldhave livened up the episode. You
know, if the Rani and Mel hadgone at it, you know, it would have
at least made it a bit moreexciting. But you've got everyone
in unit, you've got Kate,you've got Shirley, you've got Mel,
you've got Rose, who neverdoes really very much. You've got

(28:18):
the Vlinx, and they're alljust there, you know, there's nothing
happening with the characters.It's all kind of. The incidental
music is coming in really loudand kind of trying to tell me how
I'm meant to feel about theepisode, but I'm not feeling anything
with it. I really, really do.I didn't enjoy this episode at all.
I mean, there's so much Icould say about it. The idea of the

(28:40):
Belinda and the Doctor havinga baby together was just icky. It
just. The thought of it makesme feel, ugh. It just gives me. Gives
me the ick. You know, Anita,pregnant woman, she's there for 20
minutes holding a door open.You know, she was one of the most
interesting characters that wehad that was in the Christmas special.

(29:05):
And she comes back and she'sbasically holding a door for 20 minutes.
We've got Kate, who, at onepoint, it really made me laugh. She
had a ship's wheel and shewas. She was navigating this ship's
wheel as the building kind ofmoved around. And it was kind of
like. It was just soridiculous. It kind of. I just had

(29:25):
to laugh. You know, there wasall these things going on. All the
characters were kind of justso misused, I would say. You know,
and Omega eating the Rani. Imean, that is unbelievable to me.
I mean, the Rani is meant tobe this character that's been seeded

(29:46):
through the series. You know,obviously, we've got Anita Dobson
and then, you know, we've gother counterpart. I know her name's
Archie. I can't remember hersurname at the moment. Rani's kind
of eaten by Omega. I mean,that is just something unbelievable.
I just. I just really, reallydidn't enjoy this episode. It was

(30:08):
just ridiculous. Sorry.There's so much I could say about
it. But yeah, I really didn'tenjoy it at all. I was kind of, I
think I was a bit in shockactually by the end of it, to be
honest. Coming out the cinema,I really didn't enjoy it at all.
And you know, there's theseawful jokes that they've got, you
know, the Two Ronnies,apparently, you know, it was a play

(30:29):
on the Two Ronnies, you know,and, and Anita Dobson kind of says,
well, that's good night fromme. And off she disappears with the
time ring. I don't know, Ijust, I just really, really didn't
like it. I think the only, theonly character that probably got
a good, that was good wasprobably Millie Gibson. I mean, she

(30:53):
was the only one that Ithought kind of brought some episode
because, you know, she's sucha good actress, you know, and there
were some, there were somegood points. I know you're kind of
saying, you know, you'llcircle back around to the, to the
good points. There were somegood points in the episode, but not
that many. You know, I kind offelt, I kind of felt bombarded. There

(31:16):
was all this kind of stuffcoming at me, all these different
things happening, but I just,it just didn't make sense. It was
just such a bad episode.Sorry, I'm, I'm going to let somebody
else talk. Cuz I, I was soangry when I came out the cinema.
I was absolutely furious. Iwas beyond furious really, if I'm
honest. And now, you know, Ihad a couple of weeks to think about

(31:39):
it, but I'm still, I'm stillso angry about it. And, you know,
and I said to you guys, youknow, I've kind of, I've kind of
left lost a lot of respect forRussell T. Davis. I mean, how can
you deliver an episode as badas that, you know, and call it a
finale? I mean, I, you know, Iknow there was things going on behind

(32:01):
the scenes, but even so, it'sa mess. It's a mess with an episode.
Okay. Yeah, we kind of guessedthat you were not happy via the WhatsApp
group chat after the cinema.Yeah, not good. And as Harry said,
you festered on it a littlebit. It's not improved. It's not

(32:24):
gone up in your estimationafter a couple of weeks. It's just,
you're still. Okay, noworries. Does anybody, the rest of
you, do you share Maria's viewon this or has anyone got a different,
a slightly different take?
Yeah. Do you know what withthis, with this two part final or

(32:47):
finale, I'm really 50, 50 withit because on some parts it worked
for me really well and I, youknow what, I left the cinema. I think
part and parcel was being inthe cinema and I love seeing Doctor
who in the cinema. I don'tknow anybody who doesn't if they're
a Doctor who fan. Doctor whoin the cinema is peak. That is, that
is where you want to be. Youknow, the amount of Peter Davison

(33:10):
Fifth Doctor costumes. Iwalked past and an amazing 14th Doctor
cosplay that I actuallystopped the gentleman and said, you
know, brilliant, absolutelybrilliant. And, you know, we had
a little chat about, aboutDoctor who and what he thought of
the episode. And it was kindof much like Maria's, to be honest.

(33:31):
But yeah, the episode itself,yeah, just really 50, 50 I parts
of it I loved, but it wasovershadowed by some of the just
lunatic ideas of, well, Omegafor a start. You know, you just disrespected

(33:55):
just such a amazing, amazingvillain. The. And, and such a. Like
the most. One of the mostimportant Time Lords. Or is he actually
a Time Lord? Or is he. He. Hesacrificed himself so they could
become Time Lords, wasn't it?
I think he's considered likethe first Time Lord.

(34:18):
Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, he,he is, he's just so important and,
and there's so much riding onhis return and then you go and give
CGI rubbish. And you knew itwas coming after blooming, you know,
big dog on a leash, but youdidn't want it to happen. And I was,

(34:41):
I was sat there going, don'tdo it, don't do it.
Don'T do it, don't do it.
And the door was opening andthere was a chap next to me and we
were both sort of edge of ourseats and then it was called Quite
Funny. As soon as the big handcame around, we both just flopped
back on our seats on. It'slike, oh, God, here we go. But saying

(35:03):
that the episode as a wholekind of worked for me, especially
like the two part that it.It's deeply, deeply flawed. But I
came away not feeling like100% unsatisfied. There were some
lovely moments in it, Ithought. Actually, I really liked

(35:24):
Unit and quitecontroversially, I loved how the
UNIT tower completely turnedinto a big death gun ray and could
just. You could control itwith a big wheel. I thought that
was, that was unique.
Oh, man.
How, how I liked it.
How could you say that? Imean, it just defies all logic. I

(35:47):
was Going to say all the stuffthat you said about Omega, I think.
I think that's what it was. Ithink part of it was that, you know,
if you look into the historyof who Omega is, he's. He was an
engineer and he. He gave hislife so that they could have time
travel. And, you know, he. Hewas bitter about it, you know, because

(36:08):
they. He thought he'd beenabandoned. But there was never any
stage where he was shown asthis, like, as you said, a CGI gigantic
monster. I think if they'd. Ifthey'd gone a different route and
maybe had somebody playinghim, so there was. There was an actor
that was playing Omega, itprobably would have come across a

(36:30):
little bit better, but it. Itfeels like they are lacking some
creativity in that respect, inthat they kind of went like they
did with the Sutek characterlast season.
Yeah.
You know, they went the CGIroute and it was a ridiculous. It
was a ridiculous monster. Youknow, it wasn't. It wasn't meant
to be Omega, I think. I thinkit was. It was just meant to be a

(36:53):
scary monster. And the way.And the speed at which he was kind
of dispatched, you know, interms of who he is, in terms of the
history of the show, and, youknow, it felt disrespectful. And
I think, you know, Russell T.Davis has disrespected his villains,
you know, definitely. I mean,he just. He disrespected the Ronnie

(37:14):
as well. You know, havingOmega eat her. I mean, if you think
about it, Omega was a man. Youknow, he wasn't. And. And in the
Three Doctors, from what Iremember, he wasn't actually. He
didn't actually have aphysical body. So how he became a
CGI monster, I don't know, buthe did. But the thing was, you know,
the Rani is also a character,you know, that. That is kind of,

(37:38):
you know, known to Doctor whofans. And, you know, he. I think
Russell T. Davies could havegiven a bit more thought to, you
know, who those characterswere, because they didn't. They didn't
feel very well fleshed out inthe story. I think there was too
much going on in that story.You know, I like the idea of the

(37:59):
kind of Stepford Wives world,you know, that Conrad created. And
that could have actually beensomething that was through the whole
series that could haveactually been over three or four
episodes. But they've kind ofcrammed everything, including the
kitchen sink in. In this. Inthis finale. There's just too much,

(38:19):
too many characters, you know,and they're having to kind of get
rid of them, you know, gettingrid of the Rani tick, getting rid
of Omega tick, you know, andit's, that's what it felt like for
me watching it. I know. I'mglad you enjoy, I'm glad you enjoyed
bits of it. I'm glad you did, though.
Yeah. I mean, definitely some,some positive notes though. I, I,

(38:41):
I loved seeing the Sundaysagain. I just absolutely love Cherry.
I think she, as, as it is thecherry on the cake, she is pinnacle.
Carla's lovely and they havesuch, that is, that is the family
dynamic that you expect fromrtd and then it just sort of goes

(39:02):
out the window after, afteryou leave them. So I loved all of
those bits and I think Cherrywas on fine form. You know, she's
the world's best mum, butshe's too busy playing poker and
that sort of thing. Thevisuals looked absolutely amazing
and I loved the scene wherethe Doctor tricked the Rani and actually

(39:28):
copied the, the code or Iguess to take control of the, what
you might call it, the hoverscooter thing. And then the Doctor
just does this brilliant sortof fly through London and he's sort
of going down to the Thamesand, and just sort of scraping it
and the bottom. And it lookedvisually stunning and you could tell,

(39:52):
like as, as uncomfortable asit probably was to film. They made
it look like he had anabsolute whale of a time. He definitely
didn't like. I've seen some ofthe stuff, like the behind the scenes
things and it didn't look funwhatsoever, but, you know, that looked
brilliant. Going forward, Ithink the idea of where Poppy is

(40:16):
in the tardis, they'rewrapping up and slowly, you know,
Belinda and the Doctor arepassing back and forth the, the coat
and it's getting smallervisually. That, that was, that was
brilliant. That brilliant ideaexecuted really, really well. And
it's, it's, it's such a changeto not have it explained to you,
like completely down yourthroat, like, oh, by the way, why

(40:39):
is this coat getting smaller?I don't know. We should probably
find that out. Well, it'sprobably because of this and this
and this and you know, all theexposition that normally goes with
it, just to have it subtly inthe background as it's, you know,
Millie can, Ruby can see it,but, and we can see it, but they
can't see it. It was love,lovely. Really well done. I didn't

(41:01):
like the exact scene afterthat, which, when they're almost
kind of ganging up on Ruby, Idon't know why it Was written this
way. But you've got 15 almostbeing mean to her, sort of, you know,
kind of. What's the, what'sthe word? Oh, it'll come to me. But,

(41:25):
you know, when he's kind ofalmost gaslighting. Gaslighting.
Thank you. He's gaslightingher blade, plain as day, going, you
know, it's in your head, love,you know, don't, don't worry about
it. And it just didn't sitright with me. It felt like some
sort of thug was right in thatpart. And then we've got back after

(41:47):
going back to unit and, andsaying, you know, do you believe
me? Can you remember all this?And it takes the entirety of unit
to kind of make the Doctorlisten that, that ruby's not just
some, you know, gone a bitloopy, which I thought was just not
great writing. But then on theflip side, Jody, Jody's entrance.

(42:10):
Amazing. That whole scenebetween 15 and Jody, beautifully
done. And the, the, theemotion that, that got me was when
Jody was saying, you know, oh,I should say that to Yaz, and he's
like, you never do. But sheknows. And you can see in her face

(42:32):
that the emotion, likebrilliant, brilliant actor Jodie
Whittaker. It's just, yeah,absolutely hit the nail on the head.
And surprisingly so, becauseyou just. She could. Well, she had
like a day in, in the studio,probably half a day, and just hit
the nail straight, straight onthe head. It's easily just falling

(42:53):
back into that character. Andthen probably the most controversial
thing I loved was the Regen,not, not obviously who Shooty turned
into. We'll get more ontothat. But the actual Regen itself,
the idea for the Regen, as inhe's having to, you know, almost

(43:14):
sacrifice himself, basicallycommit suicide to, to save this one
life, which is, in a way, it'scompletely Doctorish. You know, you've
got 10 doing exactly the samefor Wilf. I'm sure there's other
examples. Well, nine did it tosave Rose from the, from the time

(43:36):
vortex. And, you know, it isvery Doctorish and I, I did like
that. And the visuals for himsummoning the regeneration energy
from his hands, it looked alittle bit like Hulk Smash, but it
did look really cool. And Iloved the glass shattering effect.

(43:59):
I thought they've, they,they've really tried something with
the different visuals in, inthe story. Some like quite a lot
of new out there sort of, sortof techniques that they've. They've
not all of them worked, but alot of them did. And then the actual
region itself looking a bitlike the. I kind of likened it to

(44:20):
the Raknos ship when. When itall kind of went off in a big star,
like a big ragnar ship. But Ithought it's probably to me the best
it's ever looked. The regenwith. With it all sort of flowing
out everywhere. It didn't helpwith the shooty fading away and then

(44:42):
CG CGI ing Billy in. It didn'tlook very good from there. But pre
that when it's, you know, fullregeneration mode, it's going out
everywhere, I thought that's.That looks the best it's ever looked.
So yeah, I took away a lot ofgood stuff from these. This two parter

(45:03):
wish world looked. Lookedbrilliant. It was a bit confusing
and it was very sort ofWandaVision. But you know, people
give and take from shows allthe time. It's creative license.
If he. If they called it Dr.Vision or something or Dr. Belinda
Vision, then maybe it's a steptoo far. But you know, I. I enjoyed

(45:27):
that. There are loads of goodpoints, but just some. Some bad points
in there as well.
Some clangers.
Yeah, yeah.
No region. Yeah. Respect forthat. Yeah. So there's actually quite
a bit that you are. That. Youliked that one. Cool. Okay. Right,

(45:48):
where's Jordan? Jordan's leftus. He's probably gone to get some
gin. Harry, your thoughtsplease. What did you. What did you
think? And then did you takeaway anything good from. From this?
The reality war. The realitywar? More like the rubbish war. That's
what I'd call it.

(46:08):
Oh no, look, Maria's clapping.
Okay, so was it without merit?Absolutely not. Matt, you listed
some of the positive thingsjust then. Seeing Jody again was
wonderful. I think Shootyreally felt like the Doctor in those
final moments where hesacrifices himself to save one life

(46:32):
kind of thing. Very doctory.Love it. The wish world concept to
begin with was reallyintriguing. You know, lots of little
nuggets of goodness, for sure.I think overall I was. I didn't find
it offensively bad. I actuallyfound it laughably bad in a lot of

(46:54):
places. Some of my highlights,the Rani's line about drowning in
a universe of breast milk.Kate Stewart's line about thinking
that we're all the Doctor'schildren or some crazy rubbish.
Agree with you. Agree withyou, Harry, on that line. That line
was terrible.

(47:14):
It was terrible.
It was.
When she said that, I waslike, what? That makes no sense at
all. And Omega come like, whatthe. What the hell? Like for real.
Like I just I just cannot getover the fact that, you know, they
have this character and theydecided to not essentially not bring

(47:39):
back Omega and just bring backa giant snake with arms that goes,
I am the God of time with TimeLords to feast.
Upon, blah, blah, blah.
It was absolutely stupid. And,you know, just. Just the kind of.
Yeah, the Doctor and Belindabeing horrible to Ruby. That. That
was just. It reminded me ofthat bit in Joy to the World where

(48:01):
the Doctor was being reallymean to Joy. Just, you know, again,
like, weirdly enjoying it likethat. At least that's what I took
from it. I don't know. It was.It was so strange. Strange acting
and strange writing, Ithought, in that particular part.
And that leads into, like, thereshoots and all that kind of stuff.
Like the fact that they had tochange things, the fact that it was

(48:25):
obvious, like, that's fine.The thing that I. Because, you know,
stuff happens. But what Ididn't like was the fact that they
kind of. They lied about it.And actually there was kind of an
air of. I might be reading toomuch into this, but there was kind.
It felt a little bitcondescending, like watching Doctor

(48:45):
who Unleashed and hearingShooty go, oh, yeah, it was always
the plan to do two seasons.It's like, no, we all know it wasn't.
We all know it wasn't. Andlike, you don't have to say, oh,
yeah, like, we were uberconfident that we were going to get
renewed and we didn't. So,like, Shooty decided to leave because
of that. You don't have to saythat, but at least, like, give us

(49:08):
a little bit of credit, youknow, like, like be honest and say,
oh, yeah, you know, the planchanged. You know, originally it
was going to be Ruby for thewhole two seasons because, let's
be honest, like, it would havemade far more sense for Ruby to have
been Poppy's mother and it beall like, full circle because. Because
of space babies, it. I feel sosorry for Belinda and I feel sorry

(49:31):
for Vera de Sethu because, youknow, that character had so much
potential in the first coupleof episodes. I said on the last roundtable,
I loved how Belinda just tookno crap and I really liked that,
you know, she kind of kept theDoctor on her toes in that way, on
his toes in that way. Rather,well her now, I suppose. But I. Yeah,

(49:56):
the character did a whole 180and this whole, like, motivation
came out of nowhere for herto, you know, want to be a mother.
And there's nothingnecessarily wrong with that, but
it just Felt like, I don'tknow, it just came out of nowhere.
It didn't feel earned and thatwas really unsatisfying. And can

(50:19):
we discuss Billy Piper now, orare we going to go. Are we going
to get on to that? Of course, yeah.
No, you go for it.
Before you mention Billy, canI mention a couple of bits of dialogue
from Mel that I reallydisliked? There was one bit where
she said, she's come. She'scoming to Unit and she says, I've
been a housewife. And thenthere was another bit of dialogue
where she said to the Rani,she says, we meet again. Like she's

(50:42):
some Bond villain, you know.So there was. There was all these
little kind of bits ofdialogue that just kind of made me
laugh. You know, like you weresaying, it was laugh. Laughably bad,
Harry. I kind of. I kind offelt that as well. You know, it's
kind of. I was in the cinemaand I'm kind of thinking, I can't
believe what I'm watching. Andwhat was interesting when I was in

(51:04):
the cinema was, I think therewas only about 25 people, there was
only a couple of kids inthere. And, you know, I was really
hoping that, you know, itwould be, you know, obviously attracting
a younger generation, but Idon't know.
That's mad.
Mine was fully booked anyway.Sorry, go back to Billy.
That's cool. Yeah. So BillyPiper, I mean, I sort of read rumors

(51:29):
that she was going to be back.I didn't think they'd actually do
it. The fact that they have. Imean, I suppose they want us to be
excited about this. I. I just.I was just kind of. At first, I was.
I went absolutely mental. Imean, in the group chat, I said some
things which I can't repeathere, and I was like, this is. This

(51:49):
is just insane. Like, whywould they do this? Now the dust
has settled a bit and I'm kindof like, you know what? I'm really
not bothered. I'm notbothered. Like, she might be Bad
Wolf the moment. She might beRose Tyler. I'm not bothered. I don't
care. I just want them to kindof wrap that up and then get on to,
like, the next Doctor, havesomeone new and do something exciting.

(52:13):
Because, yeah, I just thinkit's gimmicky and I don't particularly
like it. Will I watch itanyway? Obviously I will, but I.
Yeah, I just. I'm in a placenow where I don't really care and,
like, you know, I don't mindDoctor who being laughably bad. I

(52:33):
Don't mind, like, watching itand having a good time, because it's
a bit rubbish and I stillenjoy it more than most other shows
on the tv. So, like, it's notdoom and gloom in that sense, but
I. I would rather it just begood again. And I think, Garry, in
the main episode, you hit thenail on the head by saying that Doctor

(52:54):
who just needs to find, like,find out what it is and stick to
it. Like, pick a lane andfollow that lane and just like, you
know, pick a tone, pick anaudience and just really grow in
that space. Don't try to,like, be a bit of everything and
be all bells and whistles,like, just, you know, just. I think
it needs a new show for that.But I don't think Russell is going

(53:16):
to go anytime soon. But I'llstill go to the cinema screenings,
I'll still watch it. I'llstill laugh about, you know, stupid
lines about everyone being theDoctor's children or whatever, you
know, like, yeah, it's not alldoom and gloom, but it's in a bit
of a weird place right now, I think.

(53:36):
Yes, I would. Yeah, it's not.It's a really difficult one because
I think there's a. There's awhole bag of subjectivity to carry
around with this stuff. Ithink there are. If you look at the
social media side of things,and Twitter and Facebook and stuff,
and Blue sky, all of those.There was load. There was loads of

(53:59):
people that absolutely lovedit. You know, they're absolutely
gutted that shoot he's left.They really didn't want him to go.
And there's plenty of peoplethat are quite upset that he's gone.
And they really loved thereality war. They absolutely loved
it. And I can't wait for. Sowe have to bear that in mind that
our opinion is that it wasn'tgreat, didn't really stick the landing

(54:22):
and. And wasn't cool. And oursolution is like, yeah, we just need
a new showrunner. And for me,personally, I agree with you. I think
we. We absolutely do need anew showrunner. But, you know, there's
probably listeners of thisvery podcast who are like, well,
actually, guys, you know, Iloved it. I thought it was really
cool.
And more power to them,honestly, you know, like, of course,

(54:44):
if you really enjoyed this,like, that's fantastic. And like,
you know, I mean, speakingjust for this podcast, this is not
a place where we condemnanyone for enjoying anything or not
liking anything. You know,your opinion is your opinion. And,
you know, one thing that Iwanted to Add is that when I went
to mcon, I was chatting tosomebody in the photo queue for Anita

(55:07):
Dobson and we were talkingabout Doctor who, obviously. And
one of the things we got ontois that she was talking about she
had like nieces or nephews whowatch Doctor who, who were like 4
or 5 years old and theyabsolutely loved Shootigatwa as the
Doctor and they loved his era.And like they tuned in every single
week and I was like, oh, wow,this is great. Because like, I didn't

(55:31):
know, like as a, you know, 20something, if, like, if I were a
kid watching it now, would Ienjoy it? But hearing that, you know,
kids still watch Doctor whoand still really enjoy it, that's
really cool. Like, that warmsmy heart. So, like there, you know,
there is still a place for it,there is still value in it. People
still, still love it. Andthat's. And that's great. And so

(55:54):
they're doing something right,you know.
Yeah, I mean, although I willsay they are doing something right
to a degree. But what I willsay is on this one, it did feel like.
Because I think at the end ofseason one, what was the finale of
season one? Was it Empire ofDeath? The Church Empire of Death?

(56:17):
Yeah, that one seemed to havemore of a. More of a reasonably even
split. When you take CGIsutech out of the equation, that
seemed to have a bit more inmy memory anyway, a bit more even.
Whereas this one, althoughthey are doing a few things right,

(56:37):
as you said, there is anoverwhelming like, yeah, that was
crap on this, on this one, in.In both ways as well. Because normally
when you go to the cinema towatch Doctor who, this, the atmosphere
of being around other Doctorwho fans and everything normally
makes the episode perceivedlike it's perceived to be better

(57:00):
because of the atmosphere andeverything like that. And then when
you go back and watch it athome, it's like, okay, I remember
it being better in the cinema.Whereas even on this one there were
people coming out the cinema.Like, that was a waste of money.
Why did I go and see Doctorwho? Like, Maria's absolutely livid.
It was about going to.
It was, it was very subdued inthe cinema, to be honest. I mean,

(57:20):
obviously, you know, therewere people, you know, it was mature
people that were there, youknow, people. I don't know, I'm not.
I'm not sure at what the agesof people were there, but it was
very subdued coming out of thecinema. Nobody was whooping, you
know, because Billy Piperappeared at the end. It was kind
of like, oh, well, that's.That's that, you know, let's. Let's

(57:42):
see what happens. It was kindof like that, really, because I had
a chat with a couple of people.
It's funny because everybodyin my screen, like, they went absolutely
crazy when Billy showed up,but it wasn't like whooping and cheering.
It was like screams ofabsolute terror. Like, Billy Piper
comes, comes up and everyone'slike, oh. Like, they're absolutely

(58:03):
terrified of her. You know,what does this show become kind of
thing?
I think.
Do you know what that was?That was kind of the exact opposite
in. In my cinema screening. Icouldn't believe when you said there
was hardly anybody in. Inyours, Maria, because ours was so
packed. They put on a second screen.
Wow.
And they put. Yeah, they put.

(58:25):
Same here.
Yeah, the one I was in. Yeah,was. Was the biggest screen that
they have, and it was packed.And I'd say probably around 40% were
kids, you know, like. Likeunder 11s and under. And I was waiting
for some popcorn after gettingmy ticket and there was a couple

(58:51):
of kids with their parents infront of. And they were just. They
were chatting about, like,what they hoped was going to be in
it, and it was magical and howmuch they loved Doctor who and Shooty
as the Doctor and all of thisstuff. And I was just sort of. I
was just thinking, oh, that'sbrilliant like that. It's that joy

(59:11):
that I felt when I was thatage is still happening for kids these
days because it's easy toforget that. Especially, you know,
you see a lot of. A lot ofnegativity on social media and stuff
towards it, and you forgetthat there are kids still there,
that we were once currentlyloving the show. So, like you say,

(59:34):
it is doing something right. And.
Yeah, I think for me, though,I think the tone of the series has
been a bit more cartoonish.For this series. I. I think it's.
I kind of got that impressionfrom watching the Robot Revolution.
It. It feels like it was a bitDisneyfied, you know, it was kind

(59:55):
of. Maybe. Maybe it was goingfor a younger demographic. You know,
it's obviously not maybe goingfor adults. Maybe it is going for
those younger kids, you know,I think it probably was, you know,
so.
I think so. Yeah.
You know, because it's. It'svery. I don't know, it did feel very
kind of slick in a lot ofways. And. And, you know, and I mean,

(01:00:19):
what I, you know, like I'vesaid before, I think I didn't like
the Gods theme, that they kindof went down really, because I don't,
I don't think that kind ofpaid off in terms of the finale because,
you know, the God, the godsthing didn't really amount to much.
So, you know, it'd beinteresting to see what happens going
forward because I'm assuming,Assuming that the deal with Disney

(01:00:39):
is done now and, you know, andif they're looking for somebody new,
it's hopefully we'll go in adifferent direction. I mean, you
know, it sounds like RTD isgoing to stay with it. And that worries
me, to be honest, because Idon't think he needs to be writing
the stories. You know, if he'sgoing to be the showrunner, then

(01:01:03):
it. That's a different type ofrole. But I think as a writer, I,
you know, I don't think allthe ideas that he's tried have landed
really. You know, not for meanyway. They haven't landed. I really
hope we do get a new creativeteam, you know, if it does come back.
It feels like it is on hiatusat the moment, obviously, you know,

(01:01:27):
in terms of the main series,so I guess we'll just have to see.
But I really want to see. Ireally want to see some, Some proper
sci fi in it. And, you know, Idon't want all this fantasy, you
know, because there was a lotof assumptions, you know, in terms
of fantasy. You know, thingsare kind of waved away, you know,
you know, like the Rani, forinstance, you know, kissing the baby

(01:01:50):
and, you know, the mother thatgave birth to the baby becomes flowers
and the children were ducksand all that, you know, all of that
kind of stuff. I just don'twant all of that. I want, I want.
I want science fiction, youknow, I want science fiction concepts.
You know, they. And I wantthem to go out into space a lot more

(01:02:12):
as well. You know, I, I don'tthink being on Earth is actually,
you know, really, really. Youdon't need that. I think you need
to be out in space and goingto different places, different planets.
You want Blake's 7, don't you?
I do, yeah. I want Blake's 7.Really? That's. Yeah, it's true.
Insert some interesting points.

(01:02:32):
Federation Strike now.
Yeah, you make some goodpoints with, with, with that stuff.
I, I mentioned that on theepisode that I read some tweets after
the reality all went out and afew people were saying they've enjoyed
Doctor who for years and yearsand. But they're just not sure. They're

(01:02:54):
not sure exactly who the showis aimed at at the moment. They're
not sure. If it's made for me.If it's made for. And that's not
from a selfish point of view.It's not like, you know, I want you
to make everything for me andnobody else. It's not about that.
It's just like I felt exactlythe same after the episode. I felt
a bit like, where does, wheredo I slot into, you know, who they're

(01:03:16):
targeting the show at, at themoment? Is it because they could
have done. I mean, I think thenumber one reason for me why they
did the big CG slop just withSutek and now with, with, with Omega,
is because that's what thecool kids want to see, you know,
because you've got thisgeneration that have grown up watching,

(01:03:39):
you know, dragons in Game ofThrones and the Mind Flayer in Stranger
Things and all this stuff.They don't want to see you, Doctor.
They don't want to see a guyin a, in a robe, in a dressing gown,
you know, being Shakespearean.And they, they just. Kids don't.
That's not for them. It's,it's not. That's not the thing, unfortunately.

(01:04:02):
But Russell, Russell said tous when Shutti came in, he said,
it's going to go new places,it's going to be a joy ride, you
know, and all he's done ishe's kind of picked from the history
of the show. As for hisvillains, I mean, you know, go and
create some new villains, youknow, fine. If you want a great big
CGI monster, don't call itOmega. Oh, and there was that thing

(01:04:24):
with Omega and Omega and whichway you kind of say it? I don't know,
I'm getting confused now. Butyeah, it is Omega, I think. No, it
is, isn't it?
Omega.
Omega.
Omega.
Omega, yeah, Omega. Sorry, Omega.
It's the Omega.
It's definitely not Omega,that's for sure. I don't know what

(01:04:48):
people's problem is. I mean,when Moffbag was in charge, he created
brand new Daleks. What's theproblem? You had like the bright
yellow one, the bright blueone, the red.
I loved the yellow one.
All it takes is a bit ofcreative thought.
I loved it. They were great.
Just needed a bit of creativethought. That's all. That's all he
had to do was bring back maybeCybermen with like, you know, bright

(01:05:12):
purple, fizzing, glowing likeAvengers style armor and everyone
would have been happy.
If you think about, you seethat though Moffat created loads
of monsters, though he didcreate loads of new ones. You know,
we did angels, the VashtaNarada, the silence.
Oh, yes.
You know, the, the flesh. Youknow, all of those.

(01:05:33):
Yeah. He created so many.That's what we need. If you're going
to have more monsters, youknow, create new ones. You don't
need to pillage. I'm gonna saythat word and I will say that word.
You don't need to pillage thehistory of the show. Just leave it
in the past. You know, ifwe're gonna go forwards, then, you
know, don't. Don't keeppicking up Omega and Sutech.

(01:05:54):
He didn't.
I was really careful.
Make something out of bogeys either.
Yeah. The problem we've gotnow is that they. They've now removed
any kind of opportunity to. Togive Omega a decent story in the
future, because he's now. He'snow obliterated. He's gone.

(01:06:16):
Can I mention something that Ithought. I didn't. I didn't remember
earlier, but was really. Ithought was. Was something that they
shouldn't have done, which wasthey've made the Time Lord sterile.
And that was the explanationfor the bi generation.
Definitely.
I'm sorry, I don't. I don'tbuy all of that. It's kind of. Again,
it's this kind of, you know,it. Because. Oh, I don't know, that

(01:06:39):
just irritated me so much. Imean, I. You know, if, again, it's
kind of picking at thathistory and kind of, you know, giving
it a new slant. And I'm. And Iwas thinking in my head, well, when.
When did they do this? Was it.Was it when the Mark before the Master,
you know, destroyed Gallifrey?Was it during the Tour Time War?
You know, when did all of thishappen? You know, suddenly they're

(01:07:01):
sterile, that means they can'tcome back. You know, it's like he.
It's like. It's like he's, youknow, it's like he purposely kind
of, you know, trying todestroy some of that history. You
know, don't pick at thehistory. Go forward. Don't pick at
the Time Lords. You know, I, Iwould have quite liked to see them
come back, but, you know, he'sobviously. Stop that now through

(01:07:24):
that. And I, I really hatedthat as an explanation for. By generation.
It's a. It's weak. Pathetic.Sorry. It is.
Do you know what? We're sopicky as who fans. You know, there's.
I remember when the 50thlanded and everybody lost their mind
because it was like, oh, why.Why haven't you gone back into Doctor
who history and. And broughtus all like the classic stuff and

(01:07:47):
there's no. There's noappearance by the classic Doctors
or any classic companions. Whydon't you go back into whose history
there's so much there. Andthen fast forward to now. We're like,
why you, why are you doingthat? Just look forward, just keep
moving forward. We're very,very picky.
It has to be a balance, you.
Know, you know what it waswhen Chibnall was in charge. Okay,

(01:08:11):
he had his own ideas about theshow, but at least he kept the classic
villains looking like theywere classic villains. Whereas I
think RTD has kind ofreimagined Sutek. He's reimagined
Omega. You know, the Ranidoesn't seem very Rani. Like, I mean,
you know, where was thescience in her whole plan? It was

(01:08:33):
all kind of fantasy and fairydust and, you know, she was the master,
basically. Yeah, exactly. AndI really don't like that, you know,
if we're going to bring backthese characters, you know, give
them the respect, you know, gointo the history, you know, I love.
I love Mark of the Rani, youknow, where you had Kate o' Mara

(01:08:54):
actually experimenting inhuman history, you know, and she
said, I've been there, I'vebeen in. I've been meddling in human
history for a long time, youknow, so why is the Rani now relying
on fantasy, you know, and theDoctor's dao and all this kind of
stuff and the Doctor's doubt?I mean, you know, please, you know,

(01:09:16):
I mean, why bother creatingthe wish world at all? Why do you
need the Doctor's doubt, youknow, to break it open? I mean, it
just doesn't make sense. I'msorry if I. If you examine it too
closely, it doesn't makesense. Can I go on to some good stuff
that I did like, though?Because I. I feel like I've been
really negative and I. And Idon't want to kind of leave it like
that. I did actually make somenotes of some good stuff. Stuff.

(01:09:40):
Rattle them off. You've gotone. One minute. Rattle them through.
I will rattle through them. SoRuby's interaction with Conrad, where
she talked about what they hadwas real. And the fact that she was
kind of quite merciful withhim, I liked that interaction. The
only problem was it was cut inbetween all the action sequences

(01:10:00):
with units. So, you know,every time you wanted to kind of
feel something for them, it.It kind of cut away from that. But
I really enjoyed that scene,their interaction together. The section
which Matt mentioned wherePoppy's coat got smaller and smaller
and Ruby was watching that,that was kind of. That kind of hit

(01:10:22):
me because I kind of. I kindof realized what was going on and.
And that was quite sad. Andthen the last bit was when the thirteenth
Doctor and Shutti's Doctorkind of met in the Tardis and Jody
was actually probably more ofa Doctor than Shuty was. I felt like
she kind of dwarfed him insome ways in terms of how Doctorish

(01:10:44):
she was. He felt like. It feltlike the student was watching. Watching
the Doctor. So that's my one minute.
Oh, wow. So you did have acouple of things then.
I did a couple of bits.
Not too bad, right?
I did.
Okay, cool. Right, before wewrap up, I'm just going to give you

(01:11:05):
Jordan's because Jordan'sphone has died on him. So I just
want to give you Jordan's.He's. He's put it in a discord quickly.
And then I want to finish upby asking each of you a quick question.
So Jordan says a 7 out of 10for him. He says, I liked it, but
it wasn't my favorite. Russellseems have lost the knack to write

(01:11:26):
science fiction now. Theemotional stuff in the episode was
well written and I really likethe bit where the coat gets smaller
and smaller, but the sciencefiction stuff just wasn't handled
well. And that tomb doorclosing after Omega has to be the
slowest closing door in all ofhistory. He makes a good point, does

(01:11:48):
our Jordan. So thank you.Jordan gives it a seven, apparently.
So, yeah, I think Jordan'smore kind of liked it, but there
was just a few bits thatreally didn't stick the landing in
terms of the slight Mariasaying the science fiction aspect
of it didn't quite land. Okay,so I've got a question for each of

(01:12:11):
you and just a quick answerfrom you before we wrap this up.
But before we get to thequestion, just very quickly, Matt,
the reality war. Out of ten.
Seven and a half.
andahalf. Harry?
Let's go with four. Four outof ten.

(01:12:35):
Four. Okay, Maria. Out of ten.The reality.
Two out of ten. And that's.And that's purely for Ruby's. Ruby's
appearance in the story. No,can't go. Can't go any higher than
that.
Crikey. Okay, wow. So on thatchirpy note, we're gonna finish up

(01:12:59):
with a question and it's toall three of you. Let's go with Harry
first. And it's a choice.Would you rather have Would you rather
have the show come back nowwith Russell T. Davis and everybody
just resuming service? Ifthere was announcement that went
out tonight that said this hasall been a ruse, we've actually been

(01:13:21):
filming season three with anew Doctor and it lands later this
year. Would you be happy withthat or would you rather a break
for five years and the showcome back with a complete reset?
New showrunner, neweverything, and completely new, as
in, like not even consider 60years worth of storytelling? Absolutely

(01:13:43):
brand new. Hard reset. Out ofthose two, what would you prefer?
Oh, that's. That's a toughchoice because of the hard reset
thing.
Oh.
I think I probably have to gofor the hard reset though, at this
stage, I think. Oh, okay,yeah, I think, yeah, if those were

(01:14:07):
the only two choices. BecauseI think Doctor who's a bit of a mess
right now, if I'm beinghonest. And they can always. If they
rebooted it, started fromscratch, they could always repcon
it and say that, you know, allof the previous stuff was actually
canon and then it will all beall right. So, yeah, let's go, let's

(01:14:28):
go with that.
The hard reset. Okay, samequestion to Matt. What would you
prefer?
No, I couldn't do the hardreset. I'd have to go with option
one. Although don't quote meon this because it's probably absolute
rubbish. But there wassomething I saw which I really liked.

(01:14:50):
The. The Christmas special.That is probably not going to happen.
Moffat. I'm sorry, sorry.Moffat was going to come in and write
it and sort of bridge the gapand then potentially a new showrunner
coming in its place. It'sprobably absolute rubbish, but I

(01:15:11):
think if anybody's got achance at some decent writing at
this point, it needs to betaken probably out of RTD's hand.
I think he's kind of lost it abit and give it to the. Moffat to
try and settle the. Settle thewaves a bit and then go forward from
there. But yeah, no, Icouldn't do the hard reset. You can't

(01:15:35):
do that to Hartnell.
Yeah, the moth bag. He'sabsolutely loving life at the minute.
You know when he was like, oh,yeah, I remember the season, sorry,
the series where it was calledback then, the series six, Series
seven. Hatred that you held atme. Now look. Now look, you can't

(01:15:56):
wait for me to come back andsort it all out. Maria, what would
you prefer?
Well, I'll be honest with you,I feel quite disillusioned after
what we've seen the lastcouple of years. So even though five
years is quite a time, I wouldhave to say a reset. I would. I can't.

(01:16:20):
I don't know what I'm going todo if Russell T. Davis is coming
back for a third and a fourthseries that he said he's written.
I'm, you know, I'm completelydisillusioned if I'm honest with
the show. I am. I, you know, Idon't want to watch. I don't want
to watch any of it at themoment, the new series. So I would
say hard reset with a newteam, fresh creative direction. If

(01:16:45):
it doesn't refer to the 60years, that's fine. Just do a reset
back how it was. Just a man ina Time Lord, I suppose, in a box.
Traveling. Traveling the universe.
Yeah, gotcha. I see two very,very surprising answers there.

(01:17:06):
What would you do?
Really surprising. What wouldI do? I would opt for the reset at
this point. Yeah. If thatquestion was put to me a couple of
years ago, I probably wouldsaid no. But, yeah, I think the more
that, the more that peoplelike chibnall and now RTD version

(01:17:29):
2 just mess with the wholedeep lore of Time Lords and Gallifrey
and timeless children, and wejust seem to be, like, writing ourselves
into bigger corners and wedon't realize. We don't realize how
big of a corner we're in rightnow. It's like 10 miles away in the
distance. There's like alittle brick wall, it looks like,

(01:17:52):
and it just. Oh, don't worry.When we get that, we'll just hurdle
over it. But when we getthere, it's like the size of, like,
you know, the Great Wall ofChina, and you can't. You can't get
over it. And so, yeah, withall these. Yeah, I think it's just
been messed around.
Yeah.
Just a tad too much now. SoGod help the next showrunner who

(01:18:13):
comes in after Russell T.Davis, because they will have to
write themselves in such anarrow capacity because they probably
want to be like, oh, it wouldbe great if the Doctor went off and
did that. But you've got. Yo,yo, quick word. You can't do that
because, you know, in. Inseason 12, the doctor said very clearly

(01:18:37):
that Time Lords don't do that.So back to the drawing. It's just
so confined.
I think in my head, Canon,Garry. I think that there's a group
of Time Lords that escapedGallifrey during the Time War. So
I think in my head, canon,this is my personal headspace. I

(01:18:58):
think, you know, a restartwould I Think be a really good idea
at this stage. Obviously, fiveyears, as I say, is quite a distance,
but I think it gives time forthe dust to settle because I honestly
don't know how we go forward.Yeah. Billie Piper, and there's no
disrespect to her as anactress. She, you know, she. I can't

(01:19:22):
see her being the Doctor. Youknow, she may be Rose, but, you know,
Russell T. Russell T. Davishas written himself into a corner
with putting her back in theshow again. And I don't know how
you come out of that and kindof move forward. I think the show
has. It's been the last 20years. They've messed around with

(01:19:46):
a lot of the history of theshow. You know, there's been all
the issue led stories thatwe've had the last couple of years.
It just. It just all needs todie down. You know, I would be so
disenchanted if a new serieswas coming very soon with RTD back
at the helm. And, you know,I'm sure, you know, I'm sure he wants

(01:20:08):
to kind of hang on in therebecause he thinks he's protecting
it. But, you know, we need. Weneed fresh people in the show. We
need. You know, you saw theimpact of some of those stories when
other people were writing.Writing them, you know, and, you
know, it's. He can't writeanymore for the show. You know, he's
not. He's not got it in himanymore. Sorry.

(01:20:32):
Yeah, no, that's fair. Here'sa cool reset idea for you. Oh, at
least I've got some animatedhere. Yeah, here's. Here's a cool
reset idea.
That's exactly what we needed.
Five years. Five years time.It's not a reset, but the camera

(01:20:54):
pans round and it's the. It'sPaul McGann's Tardis interior. And
there's McCoy. There's McCoyasleep in his chair with the record
player on. And everything thatwe've witnessed from the episode
rose up until now has been anelaborate dream in the seventh Doctor's

(01:21:19):
head. And he's woken up. A Dallas.
Yeah, he's woken up, he'sgoing. He's going, time, time, time.
And he's woken up and he'slike, crikey, what a dream that was.
I've dreamt of these newDoctors. I've dreamt of all these
things. And then. Yeah, andthen something happens to him. And
then we regen. And then McGanncomes back and he's the next Doctor

(01:21:41):
and he finally gets a Decentshot at his own TV series. So yeah,
everything was a dreambasically from 2005.
Do that.
Maybe that's where they. Maybethat's the way they should have gone
with the. Instead of the warbetween the land and the sea, maybe
they should have had a PaulMcGann spin off. I mean, you know,

(01:22:02):
we know that there are classicdoctors out there somewhere, you
know and they. And theyinteract and you know, they could
have, they could have done afive part series for him. I think
he deserves it, to be honest.
You know, there's no maybeabout it. McGann deserves to be the
16th doctor like this. Iwouldn't cast anybody else. He's,

(01:22:23):
he's. He just. He needs to bein it like that would. If they want
to sort viewing figures out,that's what they need to do. RTD
know you listen like take awayall the magic crap and just listen.
Get Paul McGann back.
Yeah, I mean, yeah, that's it.That's done.

(01:22:47):
There you go.
That's.
That's the poor Joe Martinwouldn't mind that either.
Alrighty. Or Joe Martin. Yeah.I mean, yeah, that would be cool
as well because there'sprobably. Because she predates Hartnell.
Right. There's probably anabsolute ton of adventures that she's
been on that would beinteresting to see. Who knows?

(01:23:09):
Who knows? Just quickly with.When you say pre Hartnell, did they
not confirm that she wasn'twith the doctor's faces before the
regen and it goes through fromHartnell to 14 but after 13 comes
fugitive.
That's a whole can of worms.
I think that was just. I thinkthat was just for viewers benefit

(01:23:31):
in terms of like the doctorscoming through roughly and release
order. I don't think that wasa chronological.
Just another bit of thing.Poor writing.
Yeah. Alrighty. I think we'regonna wrap their dudes. Let's. Let's
do it there for this veryenlightening and interesting June

(01:23:52):
Round table.

(01:24:18):
Thank you. Thank you. Thankyou so much listener for joining
us once more for the monthlybonus episode. That is of course
the round table. It's beenreally honestly interesting to get
these guys thoughts. Thecouple of you I thought were gonna
get. I knew Maria was gonnadestroy the whole thing but there
was a couple of you I thoughtwould like it. I thought Harry would

(01:24:38):
like it a bit more. Didn't. Ithought Matt would dislike it a bit
more. But like. So, yeah, it'sall good and good times. As I said.
Jordan had to bail on us buthe gave it a 7 out of 10. So I think
we're all kind of sort ofinterested to see where the show
goes from here on. As Mariasaid, we're in a bit of a hiatus

(01:24:59):
situation at the moment.Disney looks like it's going to bail
out another streaming partner,perhaps, or we're going to default
back to BBC Studios doing thething. Who knows? But we'll be here
to talk about Doctor who, I'msure, for the foreseeable future
and all of that stuff. Makesure you are following and subscribing
to this podcast on your favepodcast app so you don't miss a notification
when these episodes drop. Andyou can also listen over on the website,

(01:25:23):
which isbigblueboxpodcast.co.uk and you can
also read the reviews andarticles from this lot over on the
website as well. And there'salso links to the social channels.
Go and chat with us there. Andyou can hop into the Discord server,
which is another place to hangout with us and chat lots of Doctor
who. Okay, until next monthfor the July roundtable. God knows

(01:25:45):
what we're talking about onthat one. My name's Garry.
My name's Matt.
Sorry, Matt. My name's Maria.
My name's Harry.
Sorry about that, guys.
We will see you next time.Until then, remember Lonzi.

(01:26:07):
That was good therapy.