The Reality of Current Doctor Who - Season 2: The Reality War - The Doctor Who Big Blue Box Podcast

Episode Transcript
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(00:19):
Hey, hey, hey who fans andwelcome to the Big Blue Box Podcast.
My name's Garry.
My name's Adam.
And welcome to episode 427.Welcome back to another episode who

(00:49):
fans, we hope you are keepingwell and safe. We hope you've had
a cracking couple of weeksthat you've all managed to do something.
Doctor. Doctor Who related.Just got in there.
That was close.
You paused for a fraction toolong there, bud.

(01:09):
You snooze, you lose.
That's the moral. That's thestory of the day. There we go. So
we are at 427. Thank you verymuch for bearing with us. We've had
a bit of time off, reallyinconveniently planned in the world
of Doctor Who. Adam's beentraveling back from the US to the
uk. I've been traveling overto the US For a vacation and this

(01:33):
all happened, as I said, quiteinconveniently. It turns out that
when you're planning trips andstuff like that and you say to your
better half, yeah, but wecan't go then because of Doctor Who.
Apparently that doesn't holdmuch water.
No, apparently don't go down well.
Doesn't go down that well. So,yeah, on the flip side, it has given

(01:53):
us an opportunity to watch theepisode a couple of times, digest
it a little bit, and listen tosome other podcasts who have. Who
have given their thoughts andread some blogs and just absorbed,
you know, what fandom'sthinking and. And all the rest of
it. So, yeah, just want togive a wee shout out to some other

(02:14):
Doctor Who podcasts thatwe've. I don't know about you, bud,
but I still listen to about ahandful of Doctor Who pods these
days.
Yeah, me too.
Yeah, and not as many as Iused to. Some of them, sadly, have
fallen by the wayside ofrecent years. But yeah, the Doctor
Who podcast dot com. Thoseguys always do a good one. Who's

(02:37):
he podcast? The Doctor Whoshow. Our friends down under, they
always got a good take. AndRadio Free Scaro, those guys are
always, I think consistent isprobably the best way to describe
that one. But bit likeourselves over the years, they've
just. Just turn up and show upand do the show. I mean, the other

(03:00):
guys do that as well. DoctorWho show and those guys do it. But
the old Radio Free Scaro dudeshave been doing it for so long now.
Consistency is the name of thegame with those guys.
I'm going to throw in the 50%podcast as well. 50, 50. I love those
guys.
Oh, 50%. Yeah.
Yeah.
Those two Aussies as well, right?
Yeah, from down under.
Very, very cool, those guys.Really cool on Tick Tock. By the

(03:23):
way, if any of you are DoctorWho tick tockers, then check out
50. They do loads of reallycool. They've got the Tick Tock thing
nailed.
Yes.
For Doctor Who, corner tocorner. Those guys are cool. They've
had some good guests on overthe years. Quite like their. Their
take on it. And there wasanother one, Phil. What's. Phil?

(03:44):
You know Phil.
Phil Cannon.
He's been around. Phil Cannon.That's. Who's he, isn't he? Sorry,
yeah, I've said that.
I was gonna say he's. Who's he?
Yeah, yeah.
Although he does jump on theDoctor Who show as well, I think.
Yeah, he does, he does, yeah.
There's a couple of othersthat I listen to, but I can't remember
top my head what they are. Soit's been cool just to check out
what fandom's thinking and.And stuff like that as we fill up

(04:06):
the notebook with thoughts and whatnot.
So it's always mixed, isn'tit? That's why I like to listen to
a variety of podcasts becauseyou think, you know, you think, oh,
these guys are gonna. Andthen, yeah, it, you know, the reaction
is always different on the, onthe shows, you know, there's. It's
not like. Although it's beenfairly consistent on this particular

(04:27):
finale, I think. But yeah,it's always good to get a few variety
of opinions. I find myself aswell sometimes listening and. And
I'm sure people do with us aswell. And when they don't, their
views don't align with mineand I'm sort of shouting at my phone
saying, what are you talkingabout? It was rubbish, you know,
so. But that's half the fun ofit, I think, is. Yeah, of course,

(04:50):
other people's thoughts.
Yeah, yeah, of course. It'svery cool that. And before we get
going of our review and on thereality war, I'm going to forget
later, so I'm going to ask younow, what did you think to the trailer
for the War between the Landand the Sea? Because that dropped
afterwards, didn't it? And youand I have had some interesting thoughts

(05:10):
on. Because this is one of thefirst sort of proper spin offs we've
seen since, I guess, class. Ithink class would have been the last.
When you say it, it's like adagger for the class. Cosmic angst
every time you say that word. Yeah.
But the trailer dropped forit. And I will say, mate, I was pleasantly

(05:33):
surprised by, by the trailer.So I know you. Obviously the trailer
is a. Somewhat of anindication of what to expect, but
you should never go on that,of course, to see what the actual
thing is going to be like,whether it's TV or films. But what
do you think to the trailer drop?
Yeah, I thought the trailerlooked pretty good. I mean, this
is it. Because this is thething I keep forgetting this spin

(05:55):
off is even, you know, youknow, happening until someone mentions
it or we see a trailer. So,you know, I, I kind of don't feel
like I'm that bothered aboutwatching it, but when I saw the trailer,
mate, yeah, I thought thatlooks decent. Production values,
looks good. I, I got a bit ofa sort of torch with Children of
Earth vibe. It looks like it'staking, you know, a bit more adult,

(06:15):
a bit more. Taking itself abit more seriously. I'm not sure
about the fish person design,what that is, so I'm intrigued by
that. But no, I thought thetrailer looked good, mate. And it's
the first thing that actuallymade me sort of sit up and, and take
notice of this spin offbecause up till now I've really been
so unbothered about it. Yeah,it looked, it looked good, I thought.

(06:40):
I mean, the problem is, Idon't. We don't know when we're getting
it. Is this. Is it this year,next year? When's it coming?
Well, it's expected to bereleased in 2025. That's the.
Oh, it is coming this year. Okay.
Supposedly. Yeah, but, yeah,well, like any, if anything, about
the recent era of Doctor Whohas taught us all the basic. You

(07:02):
could use this line to answeranybody's question about anything
to do with Doctor Who thesedays. And the answer is who bloody
knows?
Right?
That's your answer to prettymuch every question whether it's.
Is this character coming back?Could you, you know, what went on
with this storyline? What wasthat plot thing there?

(07:22):
Yeah.
Is the War between the Landand the Sea coming? The answers.
Who bloody knows?
Have they finished filming it?I'm assuming it's all in the can
and ready to go. Is it?They're probably doing post production
on it, but yeah.
So that was filmed thatwrapped up December last year. So
between August and December,that was all filmed and.
Yeah.
And done.
Yeah, yeah. No, I thought itlooked good. The trailer looked promising.

(07:43):
I think that's the word I'duse. I sort of. Yeah. When it finished,
I thought, that lookspromising. And I like Russell Tovey,
mate. Actually, he's a goodlittle actor and, and so having him
in it I think is a plusbecause the unit lot, I mean, I don't
know, that's not enough tosort of. That's not enough to get

(08:04):
me in as a viewer. But I thinkRusty is a good actor and also I.
He's one of the nicest peopleI've ever bumped into. So, you know,
like with celebrities, peoplesay, oh, what were they like when
you met him? I bumped into himrandomly in London ago and mate,
he could not have been nicer.You know, just he stopped and chatted
and had pictures and yeah, itwas a lovely meeting. So whenever

(08:25):
I see him, he's already won meover because I think, oh, he was
lovely when I met him. So I'mquite looking forward to it. Actually.
I wanted to ask you something.Did you watch the Doctor Who unleashed
20 years thing? Of course, yeah.
Pretty good that.
Yeah. I mean, I. I've been abit grumpy after the finale. Sorry.

(08:46):
Not to give any spoilers awayabout my thoughts, but I was a bit
like, oh, I'm not botheredabout it, I'm not watching it. And
then I really was being grumpyand then it just. I was watching
some YouTube late at nightbecause I've been suffering from
the old jet lag. I've beenstaying awake watching YouTube. Took
all hours. And I switched offYouTube and it was on the TV. It

(09:07):
was actually on at like half11 at night. I guess they were repeating
it or something because Iassumed it was just an iplayer thing,
you know, I thought youactually had to go and seek it out
to watch it. So it was on theTV and I thought, I'll watch it.
And mate, I'm so glad I didactually. It's watching all those
early clips and a few littlebehind the scenes bits and I mean,
I wish it had been longer. Iknow they rushed us out. I know it

(09:27):
was a bit of an afterthoughtto even put this show together. And
it did show because theyreally skipped through certain eras,
particularly Capaldi, which alot of people have picked up on blink
and you miss it. But it was,it was so lovely actually. It really
reminded me what I love aboutthis show. In some ways it made me
feel a little bit sad aboutthe sort of place we're in now. You

(09:48):
know, when it finished, thissort of limbo we're in and the way
the sort of show's gone, Ithought, oh, it's a shame actually,
when you look back at,particularly for Me, when seeing
the behind the scenes of Matt,Karen and Arthur just messed around.
I said, I just saw those guysjust. I don't know, they just had
such a good friendship, itseemed, and it really translated

(10:08):
to screen. So seeing thoseguys messing around behind the scenes
and Billy talking with Davidand, yeah, it was just lovely, I
thought, really nice. I knowthey rushed in and put it together
and it could have been better,but it was a nice little sort of
sum up of, of the last sort of20 years of what they're calling
New who. Which consideringit's 20 years old, I'm not sure we

(10:29):
could still call it New who.But anyway, yeah, we know what they
mean.
Yeah, it was a good, it was agood one, that one. It was. And as
someone who's half, halfWelsh, I, I really appreciated the,
the spin on this one. So itwas 20 years in Wales. Yeah, was
the, was the hook for it. Andso, yeah, I really liked it and I
absolutely agree. Whenever yousee Billy Piper and David Tennant,

(10:50):
they're always just chummy andlaugh. You can tell they're good
mates and, and, and it's allgood. But I had similar feelings,
mate, I'll be honest with you.When that finished, I thought, oh,
that was, I don't know, just.I know everything looks a bit rosier
and nicer and with yournostalgia goggles on and I totally

(11:10):
get that. But I did have alittle feeling of Doctor Who feels
very, very different now andwe could, I think we could spend
an entire podcast episodediving into why that is. But I think,
yeah, just overall I just.Similar to you, I felt like I've
got a very different feelingnow after watching an era or a series

(11:34):
of Doctor Who now versus, youknow, series three or four one. Whatever,
you know, whatever it is.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, Iknow it would probably never happen
because it would take a lot todo, but I would love to see like
a show like that. But if theycould manage to get like Peter Capaldi

(11:55):
and Matt Smith to actuallycome back and partake in it and just
talk about that, I would justlove to hear, you know, them reminisce
about the talent show becauseDavid obviously came back with Billy
and there was some really nicelittle segments with them. So they
come back and chatted abouttheir time and even that was really
interesting because theyagain, obviously get on really well.
There was lots of laughter andsmiles and reminiscing and there

(12:19):
was a little bit where Billysaid, you know, oh, I wasn't actually
going to come back for Anotherseries after Chris left, I sort of
thought now, and David waslike, really? What made you come
back? And so I thought, oh,that's interesting. I had no idea.
I just, you know, just assumedthat she was up for doing it. So
I was thinking, I would haveliked to heard more about that. Why
did what. You know, why didn'tyou want to come back? Was it. It

(12:39):
was the first. It was not thatgood. And in terms of production,
did you not enjoy doing it?What happened? And then she was saying,
you know, she was so glad shedid because her and David just clicked
and they laughed pretty muchevery day on set and all this sort
of thing. So there were somenice little nuggets in there. And
I thought, God, imaginehaving, you know, Peter and, dare
I say it, Jenna come back.But, you know, I'd still be interested.

(13:01):
I'd be interested to hear themtalk about stuff like that. I mean,
I was amazed. Jenna Colemandidn't even make the cut. She wasn't
in the show at all,considering what a big part she was
of the latter era, of Clara,who. She wasn't even in it. So, yeah,
it would be lovely, wouldn'tit, if we could do like a proper,
you know, real retrospective?You get all the old, you know, all

(13:23):
the new, whatever, Doctorsback. Chris, of course, would never
do it. But be fascinating,though, wouldn't it, to hear there.
That'd be amazing.
Look back on, you know, that time.
But it would be amazing. Ithink they will do it one day. One
day.
One day, yeah.
In the future, I think. Giveit another 15, 20 years when they're
a bit older and, you know,because I think a lot of actors go

(13:45):
through that, that period ofreflection when they want to make
that. That public, where theywant to write a book or they want
to start a podcast orwhatever, so, you know, they start
to talk about things a bitmore publicly once they've been out
of something like that for awhile. I think David Tennant, though,
I think he's just. He's alwaysjust going to be Mr. Doctor Who.

(14:07):
I think anytime that the. TheBBC or Russell or somebody says,
dave, do you want to come andbe in this interview? He's like,
yeah, I was meant to fly outto LA in the morning and settle this,
you know, this budget and getpaid 3 or 4 million dollars for this
film. But, yeah, I'm gonnadrop that and come and do this Doctor
Who thing in rainy Cardiff.

(14:29):
Yeah.
So I'll see you in the morning.
He is. I mean, that waslovely, wasn't it. That's what you
do, get that impression withDavid. That was lovely. When him
and Billy were talking aboutthe Dalek and how she was. He was
so fanboying over the Dalekwhen he first saw it. And Billy was,
like, so unbo by, but knewthat it was a big thing, so she was
like. So I had to pretend. Andhe's like, yeah, you weren't fooling

(14:50):
anyone. You know, there's likeDavid on his knees going, oh, wow,
this is amazing. And Billy'slike, yeah, wow. And he's like, you
haven't got a clue, have you?This is doing nothing for you. You
know, there were lovelymoments like that. I think Matt would
come back, actually. I mean,the other bit I loved about it was
Steven Moffat. He's so dry. Ilove the old Mothball, mate, don't
you? When he's in interviews,he's such a dry old stick. And I

(15:13):
mean that with love, you know,in a good way. And he was like, I.
I text this morning and said,you know, why did you leave? And
he said, oh, I wish I wasstill on set now and all this. And,
you know, there is. Yeah, youcan see there is really light, nice
friendships and. And thingsthat are still there. You know, even
though actors have moved onand they're still in touch with each
other, the moth still textshis Matt and, you know, stuff like

(15:36):
that. So, yeah, I can imagineMatt coming back and doing something.
Maybe when he's a bit older,he will do defo. Yeah, yeah. And
he's less busy. He's probablyout filming another Terminator film.
But, you know, whatever he'sdoing now, I don't know what he's
doing now. I love Matt, by theway. He's still. Even when I watch
clips, he's still, to me, thebest. Him and Capaldi, maybe the

(15:58):
best Doctors we've had sincethe show came back. I just. Yeah,
whenever I see Matt, mate, Ijust think I'm, you know, just want
to watch whatever episode thatthey're showing. Not because it's
a good episode, just becauseof him, you know, he's amazing. Yeah,
he is.
Yeah. When you and I weregoing through our retro reviews,
you know, when we were. What'sthe phrase? We were clearing the

(16:20):
board. We were just gettingthrough every episode of Doctor Who
ever.
Yeah.
And, you know, back in theday, so going back a few years, if
you're a new listener, we usedto do this sort of rotation where
we. Throughout the month, ifit was a standard four week, month,
week, one I think was a new. Anew, like, recent Doctor Who. Week

(16:41):
two was Torchwood. I thinkweek three was classic who, and week
four was the Sarah Jane adventures.
Yeah.
And we did a couple of yearsof that rotation. It was really cool.
And every time we got onto aMatt Smith episode, you and I would
inevitably say similar thingsin our review. It'd be. The more
we watch Matt, the more hejust is just a hundred percent one

(17:03):
of the best Doctors.
Yes.
To be, you know, one of thebest actors to be the Doctor in the.
In the current years, youknow, the recent revival years. And
he's. He's a gem. I have notwatched Matt in a while. I'll be
honest with you. I've notwatched a Matt Smith episode in.
Or.
It must be pushing on for acouple of years now, mate. At least.

(17:25):
Yeah. So I think I'm slowlygoing through a. A bit of a re. Watch
of all of Doctor Who at themoment. I'm just coming up to the
end of. This is going to be along chew, but I'm coming up to the
end of Hartnell's era. Istarted this last year and I'm only
up to the end of Hartnell, so.But when I, you know, in 50 years,

(17:46):
when I get to Matt Smithstuff, it's going to be awesome.
But, yeah, I agree, mate. Heis one of the best.
And actually, somebody saidit. I think it was on that show.
No, it must have been apodcast I was listening to or something.
Said the thing that I'vealways said. I loved him at the time.
He was. But he was a young guyand I would. Now he's a bit older
and a bit more aged and helooks a bit more rugged. I just think,

(18:08):
wow, imagine what it'd be likeas the Doctor now. I mean, I would
love him to come back, but Iwouldn't because he's already. Let's
say he. He hadn't been theDoctor before. I would love Matt
to play the Doctor now. Imean, I still would, actually, if
he come back. I think I lovehim so much that I actually wouldn't
be bothered. But I just think,you know, in the last few years,
he's really sort of. I don'tknow, I just think he'd be phenomenal

(18:30):
as the Doctor now as thisslightly more age, because when you
see him in the 11th hour, whenthey show clips of it, he think,
freaking heck, he was soyoung. You know, how was he that
good at that age? So imaginewhat he'd be like now.
Yeah, I don't know whetherhe'd ever come back and do another
stint as, like, you know, doit, do a tenant and come back as

(18:51):
some kind of. I don't know,maybe in X amount of years, when
whatever showrunner hasfigured out that there's also another
way of regenerating andanother. We've had standard generation
regen and, yeah, we've now hadbi generations. There'll be another
way of, you know, thingshappening in the Doctor Who universe
when we're. I was going to saywhen we're old and decrepit. But

(19:13):
we're already there. Alreadythere, you know, so Matt Smith, he
might. He might come back atsome point in some way. The showrunners
invented this way for aprevious incarnation to come back.
It would be amazing.
Yeah, yeah. And how many, justlastly, how many of those castles
in Cardiff have you been to?Or Wales, I should say, have you
been to. Because there was. Ididn't realize there was so many

(19:34):
castles that there. BecauseI've only been to one of them, I
think. But you've been.Probably been to all of them.
Bloody hell. You've been toone castle.
I think I've only been to theone in. The one in the middle. I've
only been to Wales probablytwo or three times in my whole life.
Yeah. Now I want to go to thebig. The big one by the beach, by
Bad Wolf beach, whatever.That's the one I want to go to, which

(19:56):
I'm pretty sure you'd have.
Been to the one down. Oh,there's. What's the.
I don't even know the names of the.
The actual name for that beachand that stuff there. I can't remember
what it is. But yeah, there'sa big, Big, like, proper old school
stone castle.
Yeah.
Down by there. Yeah, there'sbeen a load of castles that have

(20:18):
been in. In Doctor Who, mate.Yeah. Caerphilly Castle and Cafilius.
Yeah, yeah, there's been loadsand I do love. Yeah. But, yeah, Wales
has got. I think something isridiculous, like, per square mile,
Wales has got more castlesthan any other country in Europe
or something like that.
I'm definitely overdue a visitto Wales, mate. I've. I, I absolutely

(20:40):
loved it when I went all thoseyears ago. Went to Eddie's Diner,
which is no longer there, ofcourse. Went to the Torchwood Hub.
I didn't make it to SarahJane's House. That's somewhere that's
still on my list of places togo. Have you been there? I can't
remember.
I Have. Yeah, it's not toofar. It's from. From Cardiff Town,
City center. Yeah, it's nottoo far. But you need to go down
to Yanto Shrine as well, downby the bay.

(21:01):
Oh, yeah, I went there becausethis was when I went. It was. I went
to the Doctor exhibition. Iknow. Shouldn't mention it. I don't
want to. Don't get teared up.So it was back in those days, whenever
that. And I went to the studioon the TARDIS set and. Oh, man. Yeah.
I was in heaven that weekend,I tell you. Yeah, yeah. But, yes,
I did Yanto Shrine, obviously.I'm so glad it's still there as well.

(21:24):
I mean, you know, I am goingback years that I visited it and
it's still there. Going strong.
It is, yeah. I was there, Ithink, two months ago.
Yeah.
Three months ago. And it'sstill just as it was. Yeah. Five
years ago.
There's always a big old pairof pants or knickers. Somebody always
puts a pair up on there, whichis good to see with Yanto's face

(21:46):
on it. But, yeah, no, it iscool in it. And I mean, I've seen.
I forget the actor's name.What's Iantos? What's the actor called?
I've seen.
He's not. Russell Tovey.
No, no, no, not.
Yeah. What's his name?
David Lloyd. Is it?
I think so.

(22:06):
Just doesn't sound right in myhead. But I know that he occasionally
pops and takes a selfieoutside the front of it to post on,
like, Twitter, doesn't he, tosay, oh, still here, sort of thing,
which must be quite surrealfor him. Yeah, you Google.
Gareth David Lloyd.
Gareth David Lloyd. That's it.
Yeah, that's the one. Again,if you're a new listener. That's

(22:28):
our thing. We're absolutelyshocking with names.
Yeah.
It's just the thing we've gottogether. It's like a weird coincidence.
It's like out of two co hosts,one of them should be good with names,
the other one's bad. But no,we're both absolutely terrible and.
We'Re not getting any betterwith age. We're getting worse.
There you go.

(22:48):
So, yeah, don't expect that toimprove anytime soon, dear listener,
if anything, it's.
Going to get worse. It is sowelcome. Welcome to the podcast.
On a serious note, welcome tothe podcast. New listeners and old
grizzled ancients, it's greatto have you listening to us. Waffle.
It's 20 minutes in. We shouldprobably get onto the review before
we crack on with that. If youare a new listener, make sure you're

(23:11):
following or subscribing tothe podcast as you'll get a notification
every time we drop a newepisode. And we also do a monthly
roundtable where we get theguys over at the writing team who
do all the blogs and articlesto the website. We get them on and
we just chat about randomstuff to do with Doctor Who. It's
all good. The next one we'lldo for that. Those guys are going
to dive into their thoughts onthe Reality War and Wish Weld. I

(23:34):
think they're going to. Theyall want to talk about the two part
finale and so on. So that willbe coming up. So make sure you're
following for that stuff. Youcan find us on all the major podcast
platforms or you can head overto the website and listen there,
which isbigblueboxpodcast.co.uk. all the
episodes are there, plus allthe reviews and articles and whatnot
from the writing team. Whileyou're there, you can link off to

(23:54):
the social channels. We're onall of those. We chat Doctor Who
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a link to the free Discordserver. It's another place to hang
out and chat Doctor Who withlots of other cool Doctor Who fans.
And lastly, don't forget toremember to head over to YouTube.
Type in the old search bar,the Geek's Handbag.

(24:15):
The Geeks Handbag. Yeah,that's my YouTube channel. I really
want that on a T shirt. By theway, mate, don't forget to remember.
Yeah, my YouTube channel, theGeeks Handbag. Also on all the socials
under the same name.
Indeedy. Come check it out.Alrighty, bud. For the last time
in Ncuti's era.
Yeah.

(24:35):
What are we reviewing this week?
Yeah, let's wrap this era up.The episode was called The Reality
War.
Deep in the underburse. Omega.With his body I can resurrect the
time and construct a new colorframe. My battle is in there. Saving

(24:57):
my daughter.
I swear I will stop you.
Omega. Omega. Omega.
Omega. Fire.
Lots going on.
Lots going on. Yeah. Lots of noise.

(25:19):
Yep. Before we crack on, is itOmega or O? Is it Omega or Omega?
Omega.
I thought it was omega.
I've always said omega and butI mean it's pronounced about three
different ways in this oneepisode, so I think anything goes,
mate, I think.

(25:39):
Cool.
Yeah.
Yeah. A couple of people therescored me up on the old Twitter on
the pronunciation, so I thinkI went back and checked out a couple
of clips on YouTube of thethree doctors. And I think I'm writing
saying that Pertwee is like Omega.

(25:59):
Omega is mate. And actuallyit's funny because I knew that you'd
somebody had ticked you off onTwitter or wherever about your pronunciation
of it. And when I was watchingthe episode with my partner, I did
turn to him and say, do youknow what? Someone had to go at Garry
about mispronouncing Omega.It's been mispronounced about three
times in this episode. So, youknow, I think we should let him off.

(26:22):
Yeah, I don't think it mattersanymore. So, yeah, I did think of
you, mate, while I waswatching this.
Apparently it's a. It's alonger O sound followed by a shorter.
So it's Omega. Omega asopposed to Omega. I think Omega is
the, is the thumbs down gettold off for that one.
It's the whole metabilismetabis, whatever thing. It all over

(26:45):
again. Metabolism. Yeah, youknow, it depends what directors on
set that day, I think. Yeah,yeah, yeah, we'll get to that though.
We'll get to. I did noticethat it, you know, even Ncuti said
it different ways in differentscenes. I kept thinking, what's going
on? As someone corrected himhalfway through the shoot and said,
oh, by the way, we've justrealized just saying it wrong. So

(27:05):
say it like this now. So just.Yeah, anyway, Omega.
Anyway. The Reality War firstbroadcast on 31 May a couple of weeks
ago. It was written by RussellT. Davis, directed by Alex Sanjeev
Balai, and it stars ShatwaVirada Sethi as Belinda, Millie Gibson

(27:26):
as Ruby and then a bunch ofother people. And the synopsis is
short and sweet. Battle ragesacross the skies as the unholy trinity
unleash their deadly ambition.The Doctor, Belinda and Ruby, to
risk everything in their questto save one innocent life. So, Bud,
as always, what do you thinkto the Reality War?

(27:49):
Well, mate, what an absolutedog's dinner this was. If I, if I.
I mean, if I'd have paid £17or whatever it was to see this at
the cinema, I think I'd havethrown my popcorn at the screen,
honestly.
Oh, mate. Oh, mate.
Yeah, I thought it wasterrible. I. I was. Wasn't expecting
it to be good. I mean, myexpectations were pretty low anyway
because of Russell's finals.But the thing with this, mate, is,

(28:12):
and you said earlier, therewas a lot of noise. There was a lot
going on, a lot of screaming,a lot of shouting, a lot of explosions,
a Lot of expedition, you know,things happening. And I was just
unengaged by all of it. I wasjust sat there thinking, God, I watched
this again last night. Ithought, you know, because we've
had a bit of a break inbetween. I thought, yeah, we'll give

(28:34):
this another watch, you know,because let it all sink in. And obviously
there is quite a bit to talkabout and stuff. Oh, I tell you,
mate, honestly, about 10minutes in and I'm not even, you
know, just literally 10minutes, not even further. I was
thinking, I am reallystruggling with this. I can't wait
for this episode to end. Just.It just was even worse in a way,

(28:55):
on the second watch. Yeah, Ijust thought it was terrible. A terrible
final. Nothing landed for meat all. I think watching it again
last night, if I'm honest,when. When the episode, I think probably
originally ended and then itdoes feel very tacked on, the last
sort of 20 minutes, you know,I think we know there was reshoots

(29:16):
or whatever. I actually think,if anything, the only bit I really
enjoyed was when the episodeactually stopped shouting and blowing
things up and calmed down. Andwe got the whole scene with the Doctor
realizing he's got toregenerate. And there's a nice scene
where he goes back and herealizes he's not Poppy's dad and
all. And the thing where I'mconflicted is, mate, I think that's

(29:37):
the bit where I actually feltsome sort of connection to the episode
in terms of I was actuallyfeeling a bit emotion that the Doctors,
like, I can never have kidsand all this. Oh, it's actually okay.
These scenes are quite nice.But the problem is that none of it
really made sense of what comebefore. And you. I felt like you
could tell that. That, youknow, a lot of this was rewritten
to accommodate Ncuti leaving,because I don't believe he. It was

(30:01):
always the plan. I think hesaid that in Unleashed. I think that's
clearly not true. We heard himon At Norton saying he was doing
another series, even thoughthey cut the line out and we've already
talked about him leaving. And,you know, it's absolutely fair enough
that he's decided to move onat this point with the way things
are going, so. But, yeah, forme, mate, this episode was. Was just

(30:21):
a mess, an absolute mess. AndI didn't find it entertaining. I
didn't find it satisfying atall, really. I didn't really feel
much emotion when Ncutiregenerated. And as for the person
that popped up at the end, I'mJust going to say this, right, I.
I really like Billie Piper andI do think she's a good actor. And

(30:44):
a bit like with Russell Tovey,she's springs to mind as one of the
nicest people I've met inperson. I didn't meet her at convention,
I actually met her at StageDoor, and I was really impressed
how she interacted with fans,how she had time for everyone. So
I'm a. I'm a fan of BillyPiper, right, as an actor and as
a person, as someone I've met,but I just was like, what's this

(31:05):
about? You know, I don't thinkshe's the Doctor. I think Russell's
put her in there as a bit of aplaceholder, to be honest, as something
to sort of get us talking, tokeep the show rather than just sort
of ending with an openregeneration, it's something for
us to talk about. So I don'tmind if she does turn out to be the
Doctor. I. At this point, Idon't think I really care, but it's

(31:26):
no slight on Billy. I'm noproblem with him at all. I just.
At this point, I'm just like.I don't know where Russell's going
with this. And the sad thingis, I don't think I care. So, yeah,
this episode, mate, it justleft me feeling like that, to be
honest with you. So not good.And I don't like feeling like that
battle, too. In a way, it'sbeen good that we've had these two

(31:47):
weeks off, because I feel likethis might sound a bit overdramatic,
but I feel like I've had tostep away, mate, to be honest. You
know, you talked aboutwatching Doctor Who again. I. I have
not wanted to go near DoctorWho since this episode aired. I've
really needed a break from it.It's almost like a. Like a relationship
split. You think? No, youknow, we're still friends, but I

(32:08):
need to just step away for abit and that. I know that sounds
dramatic, but that's genuinelyhow I felt. I've just not really
wanted to engage or even talkabout Doctor Who for the last two
weeks. And now I feel like thedust has settled. I've rewatched
it and, you know, maybe I'mready to go back and give that person
a hug and say, okay, let'smove forward. But it. It didn't leave

(32:28):
a very good taste in my mouth,this finale, mate. It was. If anything,
it was worse than I wasexpecting. I mean, I haven't even
gone into, like, the Ranibeing eaten and the waste of Omega.
There was just so much thatjust didn't land for me. Anyway,
I've probably waffled on longenough. What did you think? Did you
love it?
Did I love it? I did not love it.
Okay, Right.

(32:48):
And I think more thananything, I'm going to sound like
a proper parent here. Overall,because a lot of fandom was very.
Was. I saw a lot of. A lot ofpeople really frustrated and borderline
angry at some of the things init. Don't get me wrong, there was

(33:08):
also a portion of fandom thatreally liked it. And fair play for
me, as a. As a proper parentthing, I wasn't angry or frustrated
with it. I was disappointed.Not angry, I'm just disappointed.
Reason why is because I feellike they. When I say they, I probably

(33:29):
mean Russell. Russell hascompletely just, just backed himself
into such a massive cornerwith a lot of things within the story,
completely unnecessarily.This, like a lot of Doctor Who finales
that don't quite stick thelanding. What you can see is the

(33:54):
potential there. You can seethat they, you know, this could have
been an absolutely brilliantstory. I guess that's a. A wishy
washy thing to say. You cansay that about any show. But it's
very true with this. You hadall the ingredients there to play
with and this could have beenan amazing finale. But things like

(34:18):
that. You know, we were sayingbefore we went on break about, are
they just going to have amassive reset button in the finale?
And you were like, of coursethey are, mate.
Yeah.
There's going to be somethingthat happens where miraculously the
Doctor's saved from somewhereand then at the end of the episode,
reality is going to go back tonormal. Everything's going to be
fine, you know, so what wouldhave been cool is to leave everything

(34:42):
on a bit of a cliffhanger,which I know is difficult because
things behind the scenes ofthe show have been a bit topsy turvy
with the whole Disney thing,which we are guessing now. We've
an educated guess thatthey've. They've dropped Doctor Who.
So that was sort of up in theair. You also had. Because of that,

(35:03):
you had the offshoot of hisshoot. He gonna stick around. Like
you mentioned on the GrahamNorton, he was like, yeah, season
three, blah, blah, blah. Andthen that doesn't happen. So he's
obviously moved on becausehe's got bored of waiting and all
that stuff. And then on top ofthat, you've got series one and two
filmed almost back to back. Soby the time you've gone back and

(35:24):
realized, actually, you know,this would be cool, or we should
have done that, or we could dothat. It's too late. It's already
done and in the can and readyto rock and roll. There's not enough
money and time to go back andchange anything. So they've sort
of shoehorned in like thefinal five minutes of it all and
left it on a bit of a. An openended thing, which is not the way

(35:47):
open ended thing that Iwanted. Like, if you go back and
watch the end of, say,Stranger Things Season 4, it looks
like it's going to be tied upquite nicely. But then all hell breaks
loose and it gets left on thisamazing cliffhanger and you're like,
wow, like 100% cannot wait forseason five.
Yeah.
You know, whereas with DoctorWho, I think you're the same with

(36:09):
this. It's like, well,whenever it turns up, you know, we'll
watch it. But I'm not sort ofchomping at the bit to see who Billy
Piper's character actually is.Is she the Doctor? Is she the moment
that's back to fill the gap?Because they haven't. Because they've
been waiting around for thiswhole Disney thing. Everybody's in

(36:30):
limbo, cast and crew,everybody. They can't obviously go
into sort of casting modebecause they don't know where the
money's coming from. Theydon't know what's going on. So I
think you're absolutely right,mate. I think this is. The Billy
Piper thing is just a gapfiller because there's nothing else
they can do. You can't have.You can't have Shutey signing on

(36:52):
a dotted line saying, right,I'm out of here. And then the regeneration
scene is done. The only thingyou could do is sort of cut his regeneration
off halfway and then you sortof CGI it later with the new actor's
face and so on.
But.
So, yeah, a lot of wastedopportunity and a lot of things that

(37:14):
just didn't make sense to mein terms of Omega. I'd lost for words
on that stuff, mate.
Yeah, that was the mostdisappointing bit. And I knew it
was going to be disappointingas well.
Yeah. Because. And this, Ithink this goes back to. And we will
get on to a few things that wedid, like, I'm sure, but just get

(37:36):
these sort of bits out of theway. There's like certain things
within Dr. Who law that youjust don't. Yeah. You just don't
mess with Too much becausethey have a certain status within
the law of the story and alsowithin fandom and. And that kind
of thing. It's a bit like.It's a bit like making Batman. Instead

(38:01):
of having, like, you know,black cowl and cape and that sort
of thing, you know, he has anold sort of dinner lady Tabard on.
And then when fans questionit, you're just like, oh, no, that's
just, you know, just how wesee Batman. It's like, no, like the
cowl and the cape is like theiconic thing.
Yeah.
But when you mess with it forno reason, it's like, why'd you do

(38:24):
that? It's a bit like Omega.It's. He was this great character
from the classic years, andinstead of making something of that
and making him potentiallythe. The focus of the story in terms
of being the taking over asthe bad guy, it just ends up being
this big bit of CG slop thatwe had with Sutek in the last series.

(38:48):
Yeah, but that's. That goesback to the issue of if they hadn't
filmed all this stuff back toback then, potentially you could.
Because once series one hadgone out and you had the finale with
Sutek and then you saw that avery large portion of fandom just.
Just wet themselves laughingat how ridiculous the whole Sutek

(39:10):
thing was, then you keep itlike, right, okay, that didn't land.
So the idea, we've got to dothis CG version, Monster of Omega.
Let's revisit that. Becausefandom's clearly not keen on the
whole, let's turn theseclassic characters into just CG monsters.
But you can't, because it'salready been filmed and done and
you've paid for the visualeffects to make it. It's all there.

(39:33):
So there's a lot of problemsthat. That's what I mean by you in
a corner. You're in a cornerbecause you've done all this stuff.
You've then look at fanfeedback and you're like, oh, crikey,
I can't go back to the BBCbosses or Disney and say, can have
a bit more money. Which theymight do something.
They might have had to do thatwith the regeneration as well. And

(39:56):
they. I feel like that thereshoots, they may have already had
to say, can we have a bit moremoney? So, yeah, you're right. They
can't go back and say again,yeah, yeah.
And then the Rani, you've gotthe bi generation thing for Mrs.
Flood with the other, youknow, the other version of The Ronnie,
the. The cooler one, in myopinion, the. The one that had, again,
the most potential and shejust gets swallowed up. And then

(40:21):
I think there's some rulesaround. I could be wrong here, mate,
so please correct me, but Ithink there's some rules that have
been created clearly out ofthin air about by generations, where
if you're the offshoot onefrom the generation, then you can
go on to regenerate, whereasif you're the one that sort of was

(40:42):
there before, you can'tgenerate regenerate anymore.
Yeah.
So what they've done isthey've now just binned off the Rani
as a character that could comeback and regenerate. Now we've got
Mrs. Flood, who's obviouslystill the Rani, but she can't regenerate
now.
Oh, yeah, I didn't even.
So now you've got this verycool character who you've brought

(41:05):
back, which fans really like,but now you've essentially just condemned
them to some kind of death inthe future, because they can't. That's
it. That's the Rani done as acharacter, if you follow the rules
that you've set out foryourself in terms of. By generation,
of course. So they've wastedOmega, they've wasted that. That
iteration of the Rani, they'vewasted Belinda's character in the

(41:28):
end.
Yeah.
She just ends up defaulting tojust a single mom. After everything
that we had at the beginningof this series, I know where we.
The mystery of why she wasMonday from that episode in series
one. Nope, nope. Nothing atall. So you know when in episode
one, where the Doctor scansher DNA and she gets humpy with him.

(41:49):
Yeah.
And we have that mysteryaround. Oh, I've met somebody looked
just like, you know, what'sgoing on there? What's the. What's
the connection? Nothing. Thiswhole attitude that I want to say
attitude. I mean this in agood way that Belinda brought to
the role of the companion topush back against the Doctor, like,
kind of insinuating that theprevious companions had been swept

(42:11):
up in his. Kind of in his vibeand, you know, the thrill of adventure
and all that stuff. She'slike, no, I just want to go home.
So she pushes back and she'sstronger. We get three episodes in
and she's like, oh, this is.This is like the. I'm living my best
life here. I get to dress upin all these things. And, Doctor,

(42:33):
you're amazing. And I thinkyou're amazing, and everything's
great and brilliant. And thenwe get to the End where that strength
has just slowly gone. Thatattitude and that sass, you know,
that sassy that she had,that's gone. And now at the very
end, she's just a single mum.
Yeah, so.
And don't be wrong. I'm notsaying anything. Single mums.
That's not what the characterstarted. And the potential waste

(42:56):
of potential, you.
Know, I mean, so that's a.Yeah, sorry, mate. Yeah, that's another
waste. So do you see what I'msaying? The potential was there to
have some really cool thingsgoing on. But, yeah, down. Down the
drain.
Yeah. I think Verada Sephu wasso badly let down by Russell. I mean,
this is what I don't get.We've always. In the past, we've

(43:19):
always praised Russell for howgood he is at writing and creating
characters. Now he manages totap into characteristics that we
can relate to and connect to.Belinda as a character is gonna be
so forgettable, mate. She'sgonna be one of those companions
that people say, oh, BelindaChandra. And you're like, well, oh,
yeah, her. She's not quite indodo territory, but she's certainly

(43:42):
down there. It's such a shame,because, like you said, and I do
wonder if we may never findout, but we've heard so much about,
you know, issues behind thescenes that Millie was sort of dropped
after series one, and theoriginal tension was for her to be
in series two, blah, blah. Idon't know if any of that's true,
but it does align with howthis series sort of ended. A few

(44:05):
people have said this. Itwould have made much more sense if
Millie had still been thecompanion because of the connection
to space babies and Poppy. Andit just didn't make sense for Belinda
to be, you know, this mum atthe end and with Poppy to me, anyway,
and even watching it againlast night when we had the flashbacks
where she said, oh, I kepttelling you I need to get back because

(44:25):
my mum's got a babysit, orwhatever. It. That's the thing. It
was frust, I think you saidearlier, frustrating watching this
because nothing really madesense. And I do feel like whether
those rumors have, you know,what's her name? Ruby. What's her
real name? Millie. Whetherthose rumors are true about, you

(44:46):
know, her being sidelined, youknow, and taken off the series or
whatever. There's definitelybeen some issues in this series because
nothing. You felt like it wasbeing rewritten. You could almost
see that Russell had had tosort of do reshoot, rewrites and
reshoots, and it felt Veryclunky and it didn't piece together
and it didn't make sense. Andthat's why nothing landed, because

(45:08):
you start to think, wang on,well, why did that happen then? Why
did she do that? You know, howdid she know this? How? She didn't
even meet Poppy. The line thatreally got me, mate, this is. And
I'm sorry to say, you know, Iused to think Russell was such a
good writer, we used to praisehim to the hill, but he's. He's lost
it somewhere along the line.Because the bit that really showed
up to me was when Rubyactually says to the Doctor, but

(45:31):
why? Why could I remember andno one else could? And the Doctor
says, don't worry about it.You know, I don't know. I have no
idea. I think he says. And Ithink that's Russell sort of saying,
yeah, I know that I haven'texplained that. I'm just going to
put it in and it's. And if Isay I haven't explained it, then
that makes it okay. And I justthought, yeah, it's just so many
plot holes and threads thatdidn't really sort of connect. If

(45:53):
you actually, you know, watchthe series overall and. And I just
want to quickly say aboutOmega as well, mate, I. It was so
predictable. It was going tobe some sort of CGI abomination,
you know, it just. You couldsee that coming a mile off. But even
so, it didn't feel anythinglike the character of Omega at all,
did it? You know, and then to.

(46:14):
Not at all.
When it swallowed the Rani,that's the bit where I would have
framed my popcorn at thescreen. I was just like, are you
kidding me? Just, you know,that's that solved. Then you can
almost see Russell doing it,you know, writing it. Right, so we
need to get rid of Rani.Sutek. Sorry, not Sutek. Omega eats
the Rani. That's that done.Then Mrs. Flood grabs the bracelet,
she's gone. And again it is.It's just like, reset, reset. That's

(46:36):
done, that's done, you know,and when the episode wrapped up,
I looked at the clock. Ithought, we've still got, like, 25
minutes. And it feels like theepisodes ended. So what's the rest
of it? That, to me, is whereit feels like, you know, all the.
All the stuff's been tacked onand he's tried to sort of make it
all work. And I do believethat Millie was supposed to be the

(46:57):
companion for series two, andthen perhaps Belinda was supposed
to come on board for seriesthree. I think that that, to me,
sort of makes more sense inthe narrative. And obviously, you
know, things haven't workedout for whatever reason, and Russell's
gone in and changed it, but. Idon't know, it just. None of it really
connected, mate. None of itreally landed for me at all.
No, I. It's one of thosethings. Yeah, you're absolutely right.

(47:22):
It's. It felt a bit convolutedand a bit disjointed as you went
through the story. And therewas a couple of. Once the episode
had first gone out, obviously,I know that fandom's a bit of a.
There's a sort of. A lot ofknee jerk sort of things going on,
but there was a couple oftweets that sort of stuck with me.

(47:42):
I can't remember who the. Whothe. Who the guy was. What's his
name? I think it's Joshsomething. Does a lot of Doctor Who
YouTube stuff.
Josh Snares.
Josh Snares. That's the guy.Yeah. And he put a tweet out that
said something along the linesof, I don't think Doctor Who is aimed

(48:06):
at me anymore.
Yeah, it feels like that.
Yeah. And that kind ofresonated a little bit because I
thought to myself, well, maybeif I was, you know, 20 years younger,
that would make me 25. If Iwas 25, or if I was, you know, 18
or 19, whatever, this. Thisprobably would have been a great

(48:28):
episode of Doctor Who,potentially. Because I feel like.
I feel like the powers that beof making decisions around these
iconic, important characters Imentioned earlier, they're making
decisions because it's okay.What does. What does the younger
audience want to see here? AndI honestly feel like that's been

(48:51):
a bit of a driving force withsome of these decisions around Sutek
being a big CG monster. Andnow the same with Omega, I feel like,
because remember when a coupleof years ago when you and I were
doing whatever episode it was,and we spoke about when the news
broke that Disney was going tobe the streaming partner.
Yeah.

(49:11):
And all this stuff. And thenas part of that, they said that they
were going to reset all thenumbers. So it was going to be season
one and it was going to. In anattempt for sort of more international
viewers to feel like they'vegot a safe sort of jumping on point

(49:33):
to get into the season. Andthen secondly, when we were going
through season one and we weretalking about viewing figures, the
BBC or Russell, one of thetwo, came out and said, yeah, the
viewing figures are down andwe Expected that because of the landscape
of TV and how people view ithas changed and blah, blah, blah.
But one thing that we'rereally, really happy with is the

(49:55):
younger viewer count. So,like, the big bracket of teenagers
to lower 20s, people likethere that they've seen the biggest
growth in those viewingfigures. So I feel like the people
at Disney and some other BBCexecs or Bad Wolf don't know who
they are. Maybe a combinationof those people have said, nobody
wants to see an old dude in arobe and a helmet having a conversation

(50:20):
with the Doctor. Nobody wantsto see that. What they do want to
see is amazing visual effects,and they want to see a monster. Because
we want to give them StarWars. We want to give them Stranger
Things. We want to give themthat stuff.
Yeah.
What we don't want to givethem is. So I feel like that's the.

(50:43):
The kind of crux of why thesethings are happening. And the. The
wasted potential of Omega, Ithink, is the perfect example of
that. And when Josh Snaressaid, I don't think this show is
aimed at me anymore, this allkind of resonated with me a little
bit. And a couple of otherpeople said similar things. And I
thought, you know what I feel?I fear that that is potentially correct.

(51:07):
I don't know about you, mate,but I came away from this thinking,
I don't know if that's for me anymore.
Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean,I know a few people said that. And
it's a. Is a horrible feelingto have when you've been, you know,
invested in a show for as longas we've been invested in Doctor
Who. Because that is exactlyhow, at the minute I feel that even

(51:29):
if there's talk at the minuteof it getting a new streaming partner,
even if it does, I think aslong as RTD is in charge, I don't
think I want to continuewatching it, because, again, I don't
think it's aimed at me. It'scertainly not. I'm certainly not
enjoying it. I mean, we've hada couple of people comment saying
we've been really negativeeven when we've enjoyed an episode,

(51:49):
so. Which is fair enough, youknow, but that's the thing. If. Yeah,
if I'm not enjoying something,why do I continue to watch it? I
was having a conversationactually, with a friend about it,
and I. I said, you know, Ifeel like if it gets another season,
Russell's gonna be showrunnerfor another season. I feel like I'm.
I'm probably not gonna watchbecause I just. I just don't want

(52:12):
to. I think I've just lostfaith in him as a showrunner and
a writer in terms of I don'twant to be watching something and
just sat there like I am now,just moaning, saying, I'm not enjoying
it. But I do think I. I wouldsay that. And then when the time
come, I think the curiositywill get the better of me and I'm.
I'm still going to want totune in. It's a bit of a morbid fascination,

(52:34):
isn't it? Like, I don't. Can Iactually step away from the show
after all the years I've beenwatching it, even though I'm not
enjoying it? And I think Ifelt a bit like that during the Jody
era, but I. It wasn't quitethe same as now because even though
the Jody era didn't hit homewith me, there were still elements
I enjoyed. And I. And I thinksometimes, you know, the writing,

(52:58):
the heart was in the rightplace, if you know what I mean. Although
I think they didn't get itright a lot of time, but, you know,
there was still. There werestill things to enjoy in it at the
minute. It just. Every week,it's just like I'm almost got my
head in my hands and I think,why am I watching this? You know,
why am I putting myselfthrough it? So, I don't know, we're
such a strange place a minute,mate, but I do feel like it's not
being made for us. But then Iask myself, who is it being made

(53:21):
for? Like, that, to me, says,you've got a brand. I'm all for change
and renewing it and. Andfreshen it up. But at the end of
the day, you know, you'remaking Doctor Who, so you, at the
core of it, you still want itto appeal to people who have been
watching Doctor Who for years,you know, that's surely got to still
be at the core of the show.Otherwise, who are you making it

(53:44):
for? You may as well make atotally different program. If you're
not aiming Doctor Who atDoctor Who fans, well, what's the
point of calling it Doctor WhoDid. I don't know if I'm quite getting
the point across, but you knowwhat I mean. Why not make a different
show then? Because if you wanta whole new set of fans, if you want
to appeal to a whole newaudience, well, you may as well make
a different show, you know, ifyou want. If you don't want Doctor

(54:07):
Who fans, I don't know. Thisdoesn't make sense to me, man. That's
what I'm saying. I don't knowwho they are making it for now.
It's weird, mate, because tofollow on from that, I want to mention
just a couple of minutes agoabout resetting the season numbers.
The whole point of doing thatwas to encourage new viewers to jump

(54:29):
in to Doctor Who, but I thinkit was. What episode was it where
we spoke about some thingsthat were going on and my wife, he
was, she was just, I'm done. Ithink it was, I think it was the
story in the end.
No, no. Was it the well? Ican't remember. I remember you saying

(54:52):
that Nat said, oh, I've hadenough of this. No, it wasn't the
well. The well was a good one.I can't remember. But I remember
you saying it might have beenstoring the engine.
Yeah, the well was, okay, itmight be lucky day or soy engine,
but basically my wife justsaid, look, I don't have a beeping
clue what is going on. So foreven if they're trying to make this

(55:17):
a point for new viewers to getinto the show and start watching
it. So on one hand you think,okay, they're kind of gearing the
show towards people who havenot watched 60 plus years of Doctor
Who. You just want to get intoit and if you like it, then go back
and check all that previousstuff, great. On the other hand,
you've got new viewers whomust be watching this thinking, what,

(55:40):
you know, excuse the pun withthe whole tenant thing. But they
must be thinking, what? What?Like what the hell? And then on top
of that, you've, you know, ifyou've got a viewing party going
on or you're chatting to yourfriends and you've got older viewers,
sorry, long time viewersversus brand new viewers, you've
probably got them saying, oh,you wait, you wait. Reality war is

(56:01):
going to be an absolutebelter. Because Omega, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah. And you havefans are like, oh, sweet. You know,
my, my mate who's beenwatching Doctor Who for his entire
life has just, you know, setme on a bit of a hype train about
Omega. This really, you know,popular character, this baddie from
the old school days, thingsare gonna go down. You get that.

(56:23):
And then you look over at yourmate and he's just sort of rolling
his eyes or show our eyes. Andit's just so it's, it's at odds with
itself. The show is kind ofset itself up to be one thing. You
watch it and then you think,okay, it's clearly now this thing.
Yeah.
But while it's trying to bethis thing, it's also. It kind of

(56:43):
goes round in a bit of acircle. And you think, I don't know
enough. Unfortunately, thisis. The finale is just an extension
of that. There are things thathappen and you think, okay, you want
it to be a CG monster for allthe cool kids, fine, but why did
you do it to that particular character?
Yeah.
Like, surely to God, thatparticular character has earned the

(57:05):
right to be a more. To holdmore weight and to be more important
in the story than just athrowaway bit of cg. That. It just
makes no sense to me.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure youpredicted. Because I said this when
I was watching it going outlive, you know, when he pulls his

(57:28):
washing line off the clock andstarts shooting Omega back into his
little cave. I'm sure you saidthat. You said, he's gonna pull that
thing off the clock. I bet youthat's how he resets it. Or he did.
I was just like, oh, God, it'sso predictable. But that's the thing
with Omega. I mean, like yousaid, the actual design of it, right.
Quite a cool looking CGIskeleton thing, but it's not Omega.

(57:50):
So like you said, why call itOmega? Why not just say, oh, there's
this thing coming out and it,you know, looks pretty scary and
whatever, but also the factthat it didn't do anything. And that
is the problem with when youbring big characters back, the fan
favorites, if you're gonnabring them back, you know, you can't
just have, you know, they'vegot to do something and they don't
seem to know what to do withthem. You know, that's the problem.

(58:11):
Just going back to what you'resaying about the show, mate, who
it's aimed at as well. I thinkthat is the problem at the minute
is that I think Doctor Who'ssort of lost or forgotten its identity.
It's forgotten what it is.It's trying to appeal to just about
everybody, but appealing tohardly a, you know, to nobody really,
is it? So that's what I mean.I think they need to just, you know,

(58:33):
sit back, look at what DoctorWho is as a show. What do they want
it to be? Stop trying toappeal to everyone. Stop trying to,
you know, be everything withit and just be Doctor Who. And if
people like it, they'll watch.You'll grow an audience if it's good
television. But you've got tostick to your format and at the Minute,
like you said, they're tryingto appeal to new fans, are trying

(58:55):
to have. Jumping on points,they're trying to throw in old monsters
for the classic fans. Andit's. What it's turning into is just
a complete mess, you know,instead of. Actually, it's not working.
I mean, you've got to sort ofalmost. I mean, I, you know, if it
was me as showrunner, I wouldgo back to basics, you know, get
it back to being a simple showabout a guy who's traveling in a

(59:16):
police box that he can'tcontrol, that lands on planets and
in different time zones andthere you go. Just. Just go back
to basics a bit, I think. But,you know, what do I know? But that's
what I. That's what I woulddo, you know, I mean, just rediscover
what Doctor Who is as a showinstead of trying to make it into
whatever it is now, you know,and like I said, you know, maybe.

(59:39):
Maybe it's just that it is sodifferent from what we're used to
as Doctor Who that maybe itisn't being made for us anymore.
Which is a shame, really.
It is a shame. Yeah. A goodexample that I thought of when I
finished watching this episodewas, you know, Journey's End and
Stolen Earth. When theybrought Davros back.

(01:00:01):
Yeah.
So when you see. Who was it?
Julian Bleach.
Julian Bleach as Davros,That's a really good example for
me of bringing back an oldschool baddie, but not having to
reinvent the wheel with it andtrying to be. Can you imagine if
they did a CG Davros?
Yeah.

(01:00:21):
And all that. So althoughthey've tweaked the look and feel
just a little bit and, youknow, Julian Bleach is playing it
slightly differently from.From the old school days, for the
most part, it's just Davros,isn't it? From. What's it? Of the
Daleks.
Genesis of the Daleks.
Genesis of the Daleks. Yeah,it's. It's basically that. And. And

(01:00:42):
that was a really good examplefor me because when I finished watching
that two parts of that finale,I thought, yeah, I'm watching Davros
from Doctor Who.
Yeah.
You know that. You know, it'spretty much there with some slight
nuances, but with this, it'slike you're not watching anything.
You're not watching any sortof coherent thing. You know, it's
just a. I don't know. Omega,we're done with it.

(01:01:06):
It's in name only. Isbasically, isn't it? That's what
you're saying. It doesn't. Youdon't feel any connection to the
Omega that we've seen in. Inthe other stories, Basically, you
don't look at that and think,oh, that. Yeah, I can see Omega in
that. I totally get it. Just.Just before we move on from other
things being thrown in, mate.And I think we're. Like you said,
we're done with Omega, but Ithink we were both expecting Susan

(01:01:26):
in this. And I do wonderagain, if this is due to the reshoots
slash rewrites, that shewasn't in it, or maybe she was never
intended to be in it. But I.And I'm not one for speculation or
rumor, but I am siding onspeculation. Rumor that I think she
was supposed to be in this.I'm sure you've seen that photo that's
floating around of the Doctorin a club with Belinda, which is

(01:01:48):
from a scene that was never inthe episode that is rumored to be
the. The original ending, Ibelieve that came from. It was like
a, you know, like a German TVshow or something. You know, like
when you upload a YouTubevideo, it gives you sort of templates
to use as the. You know, asthe thumbnail. And I think that's
what that picture was. Ibelieve that's where it's come from.

(01:02:09):
So it is genuine. So I'mfascinated now. Like what? I would
just love to know what wasthe. The true original ending, you
know, what was Russell'splans? There's clearly been stuff
that has gone, you know, awryduring production of this series,
especially as they couldn't.They were filmed back to back. So
I don't know if this stuffwill ever come out. And what's worse,

(01:02:31):
mate, is I feel like they'retrying to cover it up. And I think
it'd be much, much better ifthey were just honest with people.
I think we've worked out a lotof it already. Just come out and
say, yeah, you know, thiswasn't planned. We weren't sure where
the show was going. Ncutidoesn't want to hang around forever.
I mean, you don't have to wordit like this, obviously. I'm just

(01:02:51):
saying, just come out and tellus, you know, it'd be so much better
than all this. Oh, yeah. Itwas always the plan, darlings. You
know. Yeah, I was always gonnaleave and. And all that. No, you
weren't. You said you weredoing another series. Just be frank
with us. Just tell us what'sgoing on. But the Susan Thing, mate.
I. We saw her in a differentcostume on the Unleashed. She was

(01:03:13):
in the previous episode, theInterstellar or the episode back.
So what was the point ofbringing her back? I mean, I'm. We.
Well, both of us have wantedto see Susan back for absolutely
forever, so we were delightedthat we might get to see her come
back. And there is a line, Ishould have written it down towards

(01:03:34):
the end of this episode wherethe Doctors, she says, oh, you'll
have to settle down now, orsomething. And I thought there was
a line that said. And Ithought that that could almost lead
him into going and findingSusan. You know, it could almost
be like, yeah, I'm gonna goand find. I haven't got a baby. I'm
gonna go and find mygranddaughter. I need to reconnect,
you know, I don't know. So myfeeling, mate, is that Susan was

(01:03:55):
supposed to be in this. Ibelieve. I. I think she may have
filmed stuff that was cut fromthis episode to accommodate the regeneration,
which I would love to knowwhen the Jody stuff was filmed. I
want to get on to that aswell, because. Was that a late addition?
Did she replace Susan? I don'tknow. But let's talk just quickly.

(01:04:16):
A, do you think Susan wasmeant to be in it? And B, I want
to know what you saw, what youthought when you saw Jodie come through
the door.
Yes, I think Susan was meantto be in it. 100%. Yeah. I feel like
she was meant to be linked toPoppy in some way.
Yes.
And I think she was meant tobe. She was meant to be either Susan's

(01:04:38):
mum or Susan daughter,whichever way around it was. There's
like a thousand rumors aboutthat, but I think, yes, Carol Anne
Ford was totally meant to bein the finale. And so I think that
was cut due to the wholeshooty leaving reshoots, you know,
bit of a Frankenstein end inthat kind of thing. And. And when

(01:05:01):
I saw Jody come through thedoor, you know what? I wasn't too,
too miffed about that, if I'mhonest with you.
Had you heard the rumors shewas back, or was it a surprise?
I heard, yes. Yeah, I heardthe rumors, yeah. But because they
were rumors, I didn'tobviously pay. Didn't pay them too
much mind, but I wasn't toomiffed, mate, if I'm being totally
honest with you, I think in. Ithink just enough time has elapsed

(01:05:24):
from when we last saw Jody tonow. Like, if she had. If this was
the end of season one or ifthere wasn't Such a big gap with
Doctor Who coming out afterher era and getting this all going
and whatnot, then I think thatwould have been slightly too soon.
But I think, you know, a fewyears have gone by and I think she's.
I wasn't too. She was like,very good. I mean, Jody, we've always

(01:05:47):
said that Jodie is a greatactor and she, she went back into
the role of the Doctor very,very quickly and was almost like
she had stopped filmingyesterday. She was very good in that
respect. I just wonder, likewe were saying earlier, maybe if
Matt Smith had come throughthe door, would that have got a better
reaction? Obviously itwouldn't have been David Tennant,

(01:06:10):
because we've been down thatroad a few times already. But, you
know, if Matt had come back, Ithink I would have been. I would
have lost my beep at thatpoint. It would have been amazing.
Or Capaldi, one of the two.But yeah, it wasn't too bad. It was
a. As far as like shoe hornedendings go, that part of it wasn't
too bad. What did you think?
Well, this might surprise you,mate. I actually think it's one of

(01:06:33):
the things I. One of the veryfew things I enjoyed in the episode.
And I was surprised feelingthat myself because I'm not. As long
time listeners know, I'm notthe biggest fan of Jody's Doctor
and nothing against Jodie, Ijust never clicked with her incarnation
of the Doctor. So when I sawher I was like, oh, no, God, Jodie.

(01:06:54):
Now, like, you know, I'malready hating this episode. Nothing.
Jodie turns up and actually Ireally liked that little scene. I
really liked Jodie in itbecause I don't know, it's just the
way she sort of strutted inand she looked very at home on that
set as well. I kind of reallysuited her Doctor somehow, that tardis
and she comes in, she's like,hello, mate. And all this sort of

(01:07:14):
thing and I don't know, it's abit like seeing sort of an old friend,
but maybe one that you've sortof, you know, that gets on your nerves.
After all, you can only be init, you know, she. That's how she's
always struck me as a Doctor.I like her, but I can't spend too
long with her because shestarts to get on my nerves, you know,
I mean, but, you know, they'rea friend that you like and. Yeah,
no, I just thought it was alovely scene, actually. I really,

(01:07:35):
really liked it. And I thoughtJodie, yeah, sort of effortlessly
slipped back into being herDoctor, you know. So, yeah, I thought
it was nice. I just like thefact that she sort of was there to
reassure him and there was allthat stuff on the screen when they're
showing the old Doctor'sfaces. I just thought it was a nice
scene. As I said, I'd sort ofalmost. My eyes had sort of rolled

(01:07:57):
at the back of my head at thispoint during the episode, but when
she come in, it did sort ofsnap me back into it. And, yeah,
I. I thought it was a nicemoment and a nice scene and I was
surprised when I finishedwatching it the first time that one
of the few things about itthat I liked was Jodie. I thought,
gosh, how times have changed,you know, she. Yeah, I just thought
it was good. It was. I was,you know, surprised. Pleasantly surprised

(01:08:20):
to see her, actually. Morethan I thought I'd be. I'd heard
the rumors as well, and I keptthinking, oh, no, when she comes
on, I'm going to be like, oh,God. But no, it wasn't. I just thought,
oh, that was quite nice.
Yeah, same. I thought it waspretty cool.
It almost made me want to goback and reevaluate Earth. I almost
felt like, have I been tooharsh on her era? Maybe I should

(01:08:41):
go back and rewatch it. But Idon't know. I don't know if I'm quite
ready for that. But, yeah, itwas good. I don't know, it did feel
cool, I thought, to see.
Yeah, same. And we're kind ofdoing this bit, Ask About Face. But
what did you think to shoothis regeneration, then? Because just
quickly for me, bud, on onehand, I was like, okay, I kind of.

(01:09:05):
If this is a really weird sortof paradigm that my mind was in when
I was watching theregeneration, because I wasn't. I
was. I didn't have any. Ormuch feeling or emotion for the Doctor
regenerating in my head. I wasthinking, well, shooty. I was thinking
about the actor going morethan the character, which is weird.

(01:09:27):
And I thought to myself, youknow, fair play to shooty, because
whether you like his portrayalas the Doctor or if you don't like
it, he's put up with a lot of stick.
Yeah.
Since he's been the Doctor,he's as. Russell's taken some of
it, but Schuti has taken a lotof criticism and a lot of backlash.

(01:09:49):
He's taken it all and. Andhe's just kept going with that, with
buckets of energy and that bigsmile and so on, and he kept that
going Right up until the end.So it was weird. I didn't feel much
of a connection to the Doctor,but I did somehow was weird as like,
oh, you know, fair play,shooty. You know, you're regenerating
now. So that was weird. Andthen the other thing is just to give

(01:10:10):
you a massive slap of ironyacross the face. You and I have said
for the last two seasons, Idon't know what Murray Gold's doing,
but he's a bit like Russell.It's not like, you know, the very
cool stuff that he did when hewas in Doctor Who before, right up
until the very end. They waituntil the last bloody two minutes

(01:10:31):
or whatever, and he pulls outthis absolutely beautiful piece of
music that I do remember afterthe episode had finished. So they
wait till, right, the very endand then lovely bit of music, which
I remember. And, yeah, so itwas. It was a weird regeneration
for me. I don't know about you.
I can hear that music. I'mhead. Yeah. So it's a nice.

(01:10:53):
Really cool.
It is. And that's what youwant, isn't it? Something you think
it, like you said, you caninstantly recall in your head and
it sticks in your brain. Yeah,that's a really nice way of putting
it, mate. Actually, I. Iabsolutely agree with that. I didn't
feel anything towards hisDoctor leaving, but I. I was, I think,
whilst watching that, thinkingabout shooting as an actor and. And
like you said, just the factthat he's felt that it's time to

(01:11:16):
leave already. He's only donea handful of episodes, you know,
really, he's done theequivalent of one season compared
to the other Doctors, hasn'the? Pretty much. Maybe a little bit
more. So, yeah. That's areally interesting way of looking
at it. And I absolutely agreewith you. I. When I'm watching it,
I wasn't thinking, oh, wow,you know, the 15th doctor's off.
I was thinking, gosh, poor oldNcuti. I think he's been handed a

(01:11:37):
rough. He's been dealt a roughhand is what I feel. I think when
he burst onto the screen, youknow, in his first proper episode,
the. The Ruby Road. Was itChurch on Ruby Road? The Christmas
one?
Yeah.
I remember saying, he's got alot of potential, this guy. I'm loving
him already. I remember sayingthat. I remember saying, he has that
spark to be a fantasticDoctor. I. You know, if you go back

(01:12:01):
and listen to Episode, I'msure. I remember feeling that Ncuti
was going to be, you know,real sort of a good vibe from him,
his Doctor. And over thecourse of these two seasons, the
way. And I am gonna. I know alot of people say this about Jodie's
Doctor and people say, yeah,well, she wasn't very good, but blah,
blah. I do feel with Ncuti, alarge majority of why I have not

(01:12:23):
clear this Doctor is down tothe way he's been written, the material
he's been given, because Idefinitely saw some great stuff from
him in between that. But he.He's been massively let down, in
my opinion, with the waythey've characterized his Doctor.
And so, yeah, I didn't feelmuch emotion seeing that Doctor moving

(01:12:44):
on, you know, but I felt forNcuti, I thought, he's probably.
When he took this role, youknow, had all these expectations
and he probably. I'm prettysure no matter what he says, he was
not gonna leave after seriestwo. You know, he probably thought
he'd be going on and filmingseries three by now. So, yeah, I
think that's what was goingthrough my head when I saw it. I

(01:13:04):
just thought, wow, I wonderwhat he was thinking filming this.
Because I almost feel like,mate, with the way things have gone,
if it was me, I'll bethinking, well, if it was me, I'll
be thinking, things have notworked out the way I thought they
would. And I. I can't wait tojump ship. I've got to get out of
here. That. That's. I don'tknow. I don't want to talk for him,

(01:13:25):
but I'd be thinking almost asigh of relief of like. Like I've
got, you know, I've got tomove on from this asap, because it's
not. It's not gone the way Ithought it would. You know, that's
what I'd be thinking. But whoknows? So I was. I felt for him,
is what I'm trying to get to.I felt for him more than the Doctor.
So, yeah, it's a really goodway of summing up.
Yes, indeed. Circling back tojust a couple more bits to pick up

(01:13:49):
on, then the Time Hotel. Yeah,that was another appearance and an
interesting little thing, asin, you know, how's the Doctor gonna
get out of this one? You know,the cliffhanger from a. From a Wish
World, and you think, how's a.How's a Doctor gonna get out of this
one? And then, you know, themagic door opens and. And away we

(01:14:13):
go. And that was the. Who wasit that opened the door?
Anita, Is it?
Is it Anita, Ben, Isn't it?That's right, yeah. So interesting.
When me and the rest of thebig Blue Box crew went to the Capital
Cutaway event a couple ofmonths ago, one of the guests on

(01:14:33):
stage was Steph Diwali, whoplayed Anita. And somebody had asked
her about. Sorry, the guyinterviewing, because she was on
stage with and Susan Twistedand Gemma Redgrave. And the interviewer
said, so, what you guysworking on now, then? Anything you
want to plug, anything thatyou're working on that's cool. And

(01:14:53):
got to Steph. And she waslike, oh, I'm actually doing a bit
more television work now. I'mdoing that right now as we speak.
Almost finished, but I can'ttell you guys what it is. But, yeah,
something cool coming up. So Ithink this is what it was. I think
she had come back and aftershe had done finishing the Time Hotel

(01:15:14):
stuff later on, I think shehad. She was doing something else
as part of this reshoot stuffbecause there was an interaction
between Anita and the Doctorthat was very, oh, we're not going
to do anything anymore. It'slike, I won't see you again. Yeah,
you know, so there was. Ithink they. There was a bit going
on there, but she was quitecool. I mean, that episode back in

(01:15:35):
season one with the TimeHotel, that was really cool. I think
we rated that reasonably well.But her character was good, so that
was kind of. Kind of cool tosee her. Do you think we'll see the
Time Hotel again?
No.
Do you reckon or that's done?
And Dusty, I don't think wedid write that episode very hard.
I'm trying to think that,mate. Maybe we did. But I'll tell

(01:15:55):
you what, I was actuallypleased to see her because so much
of this. So there were so manyrumors about this episode that actually
came true. Billy Piper beingthe biggest one, the biggest shock.
I still can't believe thatthat rumor was true. Ncuti, regenerating,
Suze, all this stuff, youknow, so that was one of the few
things I wasn't expecting, ifyou know what I mean, was Anita and

(01:16:16):
the Time Hotel to be part ofthe story. So I liked that. A few
people have said, you know,having a magic door, that's. That's
not actually how the TimeHotel worked. If you go back and
watch the episode, which.Yeah, okay, but it doesn't bother
me. I'm not. I'm never reallytoo bothered about stuff like that.
So, yeah, I thought it workedwell and it was a good way getting
them out of it. And it wasnice to see her character back. So

(01:16:36):
I think from My memory, mate.You might have enjoyed it more than
I did, but one of the fewthings I liked about the episode
was her character. I thinkshe. She was one of the things that
worked well in it. So, yeah,good to see her back. I sort of liked
the flashback scenes, youknow, she sort of opened the door
and there was 11 playingchess. I was like, Ah. And then the
third doctor with the Daleks.But then she opens the door and sees

(01:16:59):
the Doctor dancing with Rogueand she looks upset as if. And she
sort of does this sort of nodas if, like, oh, yeah, of course
he's. Yeah, he's gay, isn'the? And I. You spent a year or whatever
with him. It was supposed tobe. I think you might have picked
up on it, you know, unlessyour gay dar's really crap, you know.
So I didn't get that scene,like, why she was upset seeing him

(01:17:21):
dance with Rogue. So it wasjust like, oh, yeah. Oh, I should
have realized that. Didn't getthat. But yeah. Anyway, good to see
her back and I, I thought itwas a good way of getting him out
of the cliffhanger because itjust sort of got. Got him out of
it straight away and straightback into the story. And I like the
fact it tied it up with thatparticular episode because it did
feel a bit filler. So at leastit kind of makes it more part of

(01:17:45):
the overall arc, if you likehaving it come back.
Yes, yeah. Yeah. I just wonderif we're going to see that time.
It just seems a bit of a.Convenient. Like a nice little.
It's almost too convenient,mate. I don't think we should. Because
if you start to. Because,like, if you can open doors anywhere,

(01:18:05):
you can pretty much saveyourself from it. I don't know, I
think if it's a little bit tooconvenient, I don't think we should
see it again, to be honest.But we might.
Yeah. Yeah. Feels like aconvenient little mechanism for future
writers to. To dip into ifthey need. Who knows.
That's what I mean. It's tooconvenient. It's too much of a get
out clause for any, you know,you know, we're going to die, blah,

(01:18:26):
blah, blah. Hang on, there's adoor here. What's this? And the neat
is there. You know, herperformance is good as well. I know
she's. She said she has a.Done much acting work, but she's
actually quite natural. Whatdo you say her name was, the actor?
Steph. Diy.
She's. She gives a nice littleperformance, actually. Did she kind
of Just vanish. Where did shego in the episode? I'm struggling

(01:18:47):
to think now. Did she just popoff in her time at our.
Well, the Doctor. It's kind ofweird, isn't it, that the only way
that him and the rest of unitand everybody can get their correct
memories back is if she holdsthe door open. So she was.
Yeah.
Oh, bless her, she was a bitof a glorified doorstep for. For
most of it. But I think at theend, you know, he was like, you know,

(01:19:07):
you're gonna have to go now.And she's like, you know, I'm not
gonna. I'm sure she sayssomething like, I won't. This is
the last time I'll see you or something.
All right, okay. Even.
But I think the Doctor justsays, yeah, you've got. You've got
a split.
You might be right, mate. Evenwatch. I mean, I only watched this
last night. I can't evenremember that. That's the thing,
it does towards the end. Itdoes get very disjointed, this episode,
doesn't it? Like, Mel rides inon a scooter and does a big old hair

(01:19:29):
flip and then does absolutelynothing. You know, completely wasted.
You know, I was really lookingforward to seeing Mel and the Rani
together again. And there is atiny little bit where they're like
a bit of bounce back andforth, but, you know, again, what
up to Mel. I just. I can't.It's as if, like, the episode just
the characters just suddenlyvanish and it moves on. I don't know.

(01:19:52):
Yeah, it's. It's fallen foul.A little bit of the. The problem
we had with the Rise ofSkywalker, where you've got so much
going on, but you haven't gotenough run time to. To do a satisfying
conclusion to a lot of things.Oh, so Mel was wasted, mate.
Mel was wasted. Sorry, Ididn't mean to interrupt you there.
I just suddenly remembered. Ido remember her leaving because I'm

(01:20:14):
talking about Anita, becauseshe says, the boss says hi, by the
way.
Oh, the boss.
I've just remembered. Yeah,that's how she goes. And. And the
Doctor says, oh, the boss. Eh?I'm gonna park that. That. So that
getting this other sort of arcthat's been thrown in since the three
specials, wasn't it? The bossgot first brought up. I think so.

(01:20:36):
I don't know if that wassomething Russell was hoping to carry
on over to series three, or ifby the Doctor saying he's going to
park that, that they can't bebothered. I don't know. But, yeah,
that's how she goes, isn't it?She mentions the boss.
She does, yeah. That's anotherarc that will get picked up in five,
six years. Yeah, that'd besomething that pops up.
In the Amazon produced DoctorWho, but. But, yeah, Melmate completely

(01:20:59):
wasted. Completely. Such ashame in that they. This is the problem
I don't have. I don't have alot of sympathy for rtd because he's
thrown everything in thekitchen sink in there and he didn't
need to do it. I don't knowwhy he's created so much, you know,
stress for himself by tryingto have all these characters and
give them something to do,because it doesn't, you know, he's
just made a rod for his ownback, isn't he, really?

(01:21:21):
Yep, yep, yep. Yeah. Let'sfinish up on a couple of bits. So,
Poppy, the baby, this was likethe crux of. Of everything, I guess.
So I guess what happened iswhen Conrad had set up this wish

(01:21:44):
world, which is. That was acool concept in a way, where they
had. That was the reason whythe. Ronnie kidnapped the baby in
the first place. So it was oneof the. It was one of the gods, wasn't
it? The wish. The God ofwishes. And Conrad uses that power
to. To create this sort offalse reality on the world, but it

(01:22:07):
kind of. It's on a loop. So,you know, it. Reality crashes down
on itself and then it resetsitself and it goes round around.
And so that was a coolconcept. And. And the way that you
could see the Rani sort oftrying to put the pieces in place,
to move forward with that, youknow, in terms of a grand plan. It

(01:22:30):
was almost. I think it goesback a little bit to what we said
last week. So a couple ofweeks ago, where she. She was almost
like the master in a lot of ways.
Yeah, yeah.
In that respect, you couldsee, like, the evil, you know, Bond
villain thing going on and allthat stuff. And. And the. The result
of Conrad making this wish wasthat the Doctor and Belinda were

(01:22:53):
a couple with a baby. And thenit transpires that obviously that
none of that's real. But whatdo you think to this concept of.
Because it was quite weird towatch at first. The. Let's put Belinda
and the baby into the ZeroRoom. The Zero Room. So that was
kind of weird. And then at theend, when they're in the TARDIS and

(01:23:17):
Ruby can't believe what'sgoing on, they're folding up and
passing to each other. Poppy'scoat and it's getting smaller and
smaller, which is like avisual way, I guess, of their memories
being, you know, vanishing andgetting smaller. So. And then Poppy
comes back, obviously. Sothat's the whole reason for the regeneration.
Right. The Doctor sacrificeshis regeneration energy, slams it

(01:23:40):
into the time vortex and thenmoves reality by one degree, I think
it is. And by doing that, he'skind of saved the life that was created,
AKA Poppy. So what did youthink to this whole thing with. With
Poppy, then? Because, yeah,that. That ended up being like, the
main thing, if you like, thething that the Doctor had to do.

(01:24:02):
So I don't want to get intothe whole. Well, really, it should
have been taking down Omegaand the Ronnie, that sort of thing,
but it became more about,let's save the baby, save Poppy and
stuff. So what do you reckonto Poppy being the main plot device
in the end?
I think it's a really strangenarrative choice. That's what I mean.
It's just another thing throwninto that sort of. I don't know.

(01:24:23):
I just don't know whereRussell was going to with this episode,
mate. It just seemed to haveno structure to it. It was so clunky.
I mean, I will say, you know,once you realize that the sort of
main story arc is about Poppy,then, yeah, I really liked the scene
where they were folding up herjacket and it slowly vanished. I

(01:24:45):
thought that was such alovely, you know, interesting way
to show that, you know, sortof almost getting rid of the reality.
I don't know. It's a reallygood scene, that. And also Ruby.
And hats off to Millie Gibson,mate. By far the best actor in this
whole thing. You know, theonly one who's actually really delivering

(01:25:05):
some emotion. I thought she,you know, she was. Millie was great
in that scene because shelooks absolutely horrified about
the fact that they rememberPoppy, you know, and while she's
watching them fold theclothes. So I. That was where the.
The story sort of finally hithome to me, was that scene. From
that point onwards up untilthen, I really couldn't care. I really

(01:25:26):
was like, what's all thisabout? You know? So, yeah, I think
the sort of bulk of thisepisode did not work for me at all
in terms of me being investedin anything that was going on. But
from that point onwards, mate,I was kind of. Yeah, that's when
the emotion comes into thescenes and I was sort of. I did sort
of start to care, if you like.But I think by then it was a bit

(01:25:48):
late. But, yeah, I just wantto say I loved that whole scene in
the TARDIS with Ruby saying tothe Doctor and Belinda, Poppy. And
they're like, who's Poppy? Youknow, that was cool. That, that was
interesting. And I do wonderwhat, you know, if there was an original
ending, which I'm pretty surethere was, I. What was the original
ending? Was it just that hebrought Poppy back with a regeneration

(01:26:09):
energy and he didn'tregenerate? I don't know. Because
something's gone on there,isn't it? That's why it felt clunky.
You know, it cannot beoverlooked that the Doctor is touching
grass in that end scene. Thatis so intentional. Such a little
sort of middle finger to allthe people that have been using that

(01:26:30):
phrase that he came out with,which I don't think he's ever going
to live down. But, yeah. So,yeah, I don't know, mate. The whole
Poppy thing, it just seems astrange crux of an episode to me,
considering only because ofeverything else that's been thrown
in the mix that Russell couldhave used, like Omega the Rani, which
he just is dispatches ofreally quickly to focus on Poppy.

(01:26:54):
I don't know. But I do wonderif that's down to the reshoots, rewrites.
I don't know.
It probably is, mate. Yeah.
What did you think to.Probably just gonna say. What did
you think to the whole, the,the bioregeneration explanation,
where the dot. You know, theysay that the Time Lords are sterile
now and, and that's why theybuy regenerate. Is that a can of

(01:27:17):
worms? Yeah, we got anotherhour to get.
Yeah, that is a can of worms,a little bit. I mean, there is, I'm,
I'm, I'm reasonably sure thereis some. There, there are some sort
of Gallifreyan or Time Lordlore around that somewhere there
was a, there's a story aboutthat. I can't remember what the name
of it is, but. And that wouldhave been a better explanation for,

(01:27:41):
for that stuff. But, yeah, Imean, it's, it was kind of sad in
a way.
I didn't like it. I, I, I, Idon't see. I'm not aware. I've heard
other podcasters talk aboutthis story where that's explained.
I don't know what it is. So itseems that a lot of people don't
really have an issue with itbecause of. Apparently this has been
mentioned before in othermedia, but I'm just not aware of

(01:28:02):
it. But when they said it, Iwas just like, this whole bi regeneration
thing, to me does not work.Anyway, I hope when, if or when the
series continues, they kind ofput that to bed and just don't mention
it anymore.
Yeah, I hope so, mate, becausethere's been a couple of things,
isn't there, that have messedaround with the law the last few
years, starting with the timetimeless child thing and by generation

(01:28:24):
and on all sorts, it's. Theyseem to be throwing things into the.
Almost reinventing the law asthey go along for, for all that stuff.
So, yeah, I don't know, man.I'm kind of in two minds about it.
It's. I don't know,unfortunately, like some other things
within the story that couldpotentially be big important things.

(01:28:46):
They ended up being a bitthrowaway. It was like, oh, okay,
now that you've gone throughthat, what's the implications? Oh,
nothing. We're just on withthe story, are we? Okay, let's, let's
crack on.
Yeah. And I mean, and that isthe thing, actually. I agree. A lot
of people have said, andRussell's even said it himself, you
know, he's sort of makingDoctor Who for content, for sound

(01:29:06):
bites, for click bites nowinstead of actually, you know. So
it does feel just like contentrather than good stories and something,
you know, that's got, I mean,rewatch ability, mate. I don't ever
want to watch this episodeagain. I struggled to watch it a
second time last night andI'll tell you, when I finished it,
I was like, that's it. Youknow, I'm never going to revisit

(01:29:28):
this episode and I. I don'teven know if I revisit much of this
whole last two seasons. Theremight be a time when I feel like
watching what episodes have Ienjoyed? I don't know. I know you
didn't like Dot and Bubble,but weirdly, that sort of springs
to mind as one. I feel like Imight go back and watch Dot and Bubble.
I don't know. But yeah, that'sthe thing. It's Doctor Who's feeling

(01:29:50):
a bit shallow these days. Thatit is just all just like you said,
wrapped up so quick. It's.It's got no substance to it and it's
the re watch ability for methat's the big issue that I just
feel like, yeah, I don't feellike re watching these episodes,
sadly.
Yeah. Yep. Yeah, yep. And thenlastly, we haven't spoken about unit.

(01:30:13):
They were obviously back inthe mix. They got their memories
back. Yeah, everything'srocking and rolling for those guys
because Anita veryconveniently turned up and. And they're
all good. But, yeah, in termsof unit, I mean, I can't really remember

(01:30:33):
what they did.
Shouted a lot.
Shouted a lot, yeah, becausein the previous episode we had that
whole, you know, fandom, youknow, lost their mind because Kate
had, you know, allowed Conradto be bullied a little bit. So she
was very shouty in theprevious episode. And then in this
one, the Vlinx is back andRuby's trying to, you know, plead.

(01:30:57):
You know, this is an Android,surely, that, you know, the computer
banks. Because that's whenshe's like, what's going on with
you lot? Surely you remember?And she's pleading sort of links.
And he doesn't know either.And so, yeah, UNIT are in it, of
course. But I know we've gotShirley Bingham back as well and
we've mentioned. We'vementioned Melanie, but, yeah, just.

(01:31:20):
I don't remember them. Iremember Melanie's hair changing
quite.
Yeah, it does, yeah. She getsa perm somewhere between the shots.
She gets a lovely perm. So,yeah, yeah, UNIT were in it, mate.
Yeah, they were in it. That'sit. And that is a. That is what worries
me a little bit about the spinoff, mate, is that the minute UNIT

(01:31:41):
are not clicking with me atall. They're not working. They don't
even feel like unit to me. Sothat. That's the concern I have for
the spin off. But I get thefeeling they'll be written a little
bit more serious in that, Ihope, you know.
Yeah. And obviously Conraddoesn't get killed by the Doctor.
I think a few people wereexpecting a Doctor to cut loose and

(01:32:01):
give him a few slaps againand. And be mean to him and all the
rest of it. But, yeah,ultimately came down to. To Ruby
giving him a bit of a. Showingsome mercy there. So in a way, Ruby
was acting more like theDoctor we know of, more than the
Doctor has acted in the lastfew episodes of the season, really.

(01:32:25):
She gave him a chance to. Nota chance. But she showed mercy in
terms of when she made herwish to turn everything back to normal.
She also wished that he wouldno longer be unhappy, basically,
and, you know, be content and whatnot.
So, yeah, that's exactly whatI was gonna say, mate. She was more
like the Doctor. She was thebigger person in the situation, which
is what the Doctor should be,not tasering people to death, you

(01:32:49):
know. So, yes, I thought thatwas. That was nice because, again,
it just makes me warm towardsthe character of Ruby, which is what
I want to feel about theDoctor. But, yeah, he didn't do that.
She did. So. Yeah, I'm gladshe did that. I mean, a lot of people
saying, oh, he should have gothis greatest desserts. But no, it's
about being the bigger man.It's about being the bigger person,
you know, and doing the rightthing, not just getting angry and

(01:33:12):
lashing out. You know, you gotto keep your emotions in check and
actually think, well, if I dothis, he'll go on to be a better
person, the world will be abetter place. So yeah, I, I kind
of like she did that. I know alot of people want to see Conrad
gets just desserts, but Iguess in an alternative limelight
timeline, he did. So. Yeah, maybe.
Yeah, a couple of episodesback when the doctor was tasing that

(01:33:35):
dude, I didn't hate thatbecause I, I understood from what
they were trying to do withthe Doctor's character about being
triggered by something andshowing that side of, of emotion
and so on. But fast forward tothis. When I saw Ruby do that, I
was like, okay, that's moretypical sort of doctor behavior.

(01:33:56):
So, yeah, I saw the, thecontrast between the two of those.
And so. And then the baby, shealso wishes that the baby can no
longer give the power of wishto anybody. So little, little, little
Bubba becomes a normal. It'squote unquote, baby desiderium. I

(01:34:17):
think.
Yeah, I think that's one. Yeah.
The now human baby goes off tolive with Ruby's fam.
Yeah. Which kind of is a niceway of tying the episode up because,
you know, that relates back tofoundlings and, and Ruby's mum, you
know, adopting and so that,you know, that all kind of works.
That kind of ties up in a niceneat little bow. I don't mind that.

(01:34:38):
Yeah, samesies. Okay, beforewe put a score on this, which I think
I know what your score isgoing to be, do you have anything
else on your notes, dude?
No, I, I just wanted to askyou, just quickly, I. I think you
said you'd heard the rumor ofBilly Piper coming back. Did you
believe it and were yousurprised when it turned out to be

(01:34:59):
true? And secondly, how would,how different would your reaction
have been if it hadn't beenBilly Piper but had been either the
fugitive doctor or McGann'sdoctor? That's face turned up because
that I think would have setthe Internet alight. But I don't
think Billy's, as I said, asmuch as I love, I don't think it's

(01:35:20):
had quite the reaction people,you know, perhaps they were expecting,
but Anyway, did you. Were yousurprised to see her and would you
have preferred to see Fugitiveor McGann?
Your first question? I wasn'tthat surprised because although I
took the rumens with a pinchof salt, I then immediately thought,

(01:35:43):
well, as I said at the verybeginning, who bloody knows? So she
could bloody turn up. Sheprobably will turn up, because Doctor
Who's just bonkers in thatregard at the moment. So I wasn't
mega surprised, although I didsee quite a few reaction videos on
YouTube and Twitter andwhatnot, where people were just losing
their mind. They're like,what? You know, it's really funny

(01:36:05):
watching those reaction videoswhere everyone's, like, fairly docile
watching the episode and thenthe last 10 seconds they're losing
their mind and. And whatnot.So, yeah, I wasn't hugely surprised,
but then I would have 100%have lost my beep if it was McGann.
If McGann had turned up. Yeah.Because I think he's. Other than
that small sort of webisodethey did for the 50th, I honestly

(01:36:29):
feel like his Doctor's got somuch potential for on screen stuff.
I really do, because he's.Outside of him, just Paul McGann
being a great actor and alsohim being from the years of Big Finish
stuff, him being a fantasticDoctor, you can tell that I honestly
believe that he's just morethan any other actor, he's. He's

(01:36:50):
earned another shot, you know,because he had the rug pulled, you
know, back in the day with theTV movie. That was an attempt to
sort of. Sort of green light afuture Doctor Who has Paul McGann
as the doctor. And because itwasn't received very well, that was
his one shot done. I dobelieve that he's earned another
shot at that.
Absolutely.

(01:37:10):
And just because he slogged itout and done so many great stories
for Big Finish over the years,and he's gone to every convention,
time permitting, and he'sturned up and chatted with fans and
pictures and all the rest ofit. He's been doing that alongside
all the other actors who haveplayed on screen Doctors. So I feel
like he should be givenanother, either as a spin off or,

(01:37:33):
you know, in the show. So,yeah, 100%, mate. What about you?
I think. I think the reactionwould have been a lot more positive
if it had been McGann orFugitive. I think fans have been
like. Because even if it wasjust for another three specials,
even if Russell doesn't knowwhat he's doing yet, but as I used
the word placeholder earlier.I don't know what better phrase to
use, but just something to putin there until they can find their

(01:37:54):
new Doctor, you know, justlike a stopgap, whatever. I think
if you'd have put fugitive orMcGann, people would have been, oh,
my God, you know, they're thenew Doctor. And are they going to
get even? If it's just threespecials, I think we would have been
excited with Billy. We don'tknow. Only because. Is she the Doctor?
That's. That's my finalquestion to you, mate. Is Billy the
new Doctor? She's notintroduced as the Doctor in the credits

(01:38:17):
at the end, which everyone'spicked up on, which does suggest
she's probably not. My gutfeeling is she's like the moment
from the TARDIS that there is,if you notice a quick flashback to
the TARDIS console just beforeshe appears or something. So I think
she's going to be like themoment or something like that. She's
going to be something to dowith the tardis, or she'll be the

(01:38:38):
Doctor for maybe one specialto regenerate into the new one when
they found them. I don't know.I don't know. I don't think she's
the Doctor, but, yeah, we'llsee. But do you think she's the Doctor,
mate, or do you think she'sthe moment?
No, yeah, I think this is astop gap.
Yeah.
Because they haven't hadenough time because the show's in

(01:39:00):
limbo behind the scenes. Theycan't just plow ahead and start casting
for a new actor because theydon't know where the money's coming
from to make the show anymore.So I think because the show's in
limbo, they've put. They'vehad to inject some kind of middle
stopgap thing until they getthat concrete and then they can go
on and see, Right, okay, who'sgoing to be our next Doctor sort

(01:39:21):
of thing. So, yeah, I don'tthink she's going to be the Doctor.
I feel like she's going to besome weird. You know, Russell's.
Like, at the minute, she couldbe anything, but I think she's kind
of. There's another rumor aswell, or theory, should I say that
because Rose absorbed all ofthe time, the, The. The energy from

(01:39:43):
the TARDIS in Parting of theWays. Was it part of the ways?
Yeah, yeah, Part of the way, too.
Yeah, yeah, because she'sabsorbed all that energy and so on.
It's like one of the humanFaces that the TARDIS feels it can
embody if it was to become ahuman. So this, the Billy Piper's
character is actually aphysical manifestation of the tardis

(01:40:07):
and it uses that. That face aslike, you know, because it's. It
knows the face, basically.
Yeah, that's exactly what I'mthinking. Yeah.
Yeah, I think so.
Yeah, I think that's whatRussell's thinking as well.
That could be interesting,bud. Alrighty, if there's nothing
else on your.

(01:40:27):
Notes, dude, mate, I could goon for another hour. But I. It would
just be moaning. It would justbe moaning. So I'll end with a positive,
shall I? I. And I'm probablyvery much in the minority here because
I doubt very much doubt manypeople watching this would know.
Well, they might do. But Iappreciated the Ernest Borgnine line

(01:40:48):
because when they said, oh,everything sees back to normal except
Ernest Borgnine still alive.And I did appreciate that because
I. I used to love Airwolf. Ilove the Black Hole. And I don't.
There's something about hisname. I've always loved the name
Ernest Borgnine. And it's soof random. Like, it's such a random
actor's name to pull out thehat. So I know it's a weird positive

(01:41:10):
to end on, but I. It did makeme smile, that line. So just wanted
to end on one positive that Ihad on my notes.
You take what you.
Exactly. Yeah.
Take whatever positive you can.
I can imagine a lot of peoplewatching, like, what? But they'll
be the odd one like me that'sold enough to remember him. Yeah,
he was a cool, cool actor.

(01:41:30):
Agreed. Okay. For scores, Ithink it's me to go first. And I'm
gonna give this a 5.5. I'mgonna give it a 5.5. Just because
I think it's just kind of.It's that on the fence, middle of
the roady sort of thing. And Ihate being indifferent. So the 0.5

(01:41:51):
for me is for. Is for MillieGibson. Yeah, as Ruby. Ultimately,
I think she's been a solidcharacter and a solid actress since
she's been in it since theprevious season. And, yeah, I've
really enjoyed shooty, butlike you said, he's been dealt a
shorthand, I think, with thewriting and so on. And then they

(01:42:12):
just screwed Belinda'scharacter towards the end. She's
the. You know, she. VeradaSethi, she's been great as Belinda,
but as the character justscrewed towards the end and reduced
to nothing more than asupporting cast member, really, in
that in that last sort of halfan hour. And so, yeah, millie's bringing

(01:42:34):
that 0.5 home for us. A sortof fairly middling middle of the
road watch for me, mate. Whatabout you?
Yeah, I'm still, I don't know,open up the can of worms. I'm still
confused. Belinda was livingin a flat that in episode. Well,
anyway, I still don'tunderstand how that all happened
and. And that storyline withBelinda. So, yeah, completely nutterly

(01:42:54):
wasted. I. I'm giving this a 4out of 10 and I think I'm being generous
giving it that. To be honestwith you, I was, I was around about
a 2, 3 for the majority ofthis episode. It went up a bit because
I did feel a bit of emotionwhen the doctor's looking at the,
you know, kid and realizingit's not his. And I don't know, I
felt something towards theend. You know, it was sad when he
said I can't have children andall this stuff. So there was a bit

(01:43:17):
towards the end and I thinkMillie was great. I think production
wise it looked pretty good. Soit's not a complete and utter disaster,
but yeah, four out of ten. Andas I said, I think I'm being generous
with that.
It's not a complete and utter disaster.
It's a dog's dinner is what itis. Just start as I end as I started
it. Said it was a dog'sdinner, mate. Complete and utter

(01:43:40):
mess.
Okay. Alrighty. So weobviously we will. We will be back
on the show in some shape orform. If you guys have listened to
the podcast for a while. Acouple of months ago we put an update
out to say that we're movingto a more seasonal thing. So unless

(01:44:02):
any giant big news drops or wewant to come back and revisit some
older stories or talk aboutstuff, we'll probably be back now
together to talk about thespin off the war between land and
we see. Yeah, whenever thatlands. So we'll still be back once
a month to do the roundtableepisodes. They're not going anywhere
because they're always good.But for now, I think on that bombshell

(01:44:25):
of your lowest score and Ithink a long, long time, potentially
ever. I think we'll end itthere, dude. For episode 427.
What a way to end it. Alrighty.

(01:45:02):
Thank you. Thank you so muchfor listening to another episode
of the big blue box, ATS 427and our review of the reality war.
It was a 4 from him and a 5.5from me. So we haven't finished on
the strongest of storiesunfortunately for shoot his era.
However, we don't know when,we don't know how. But the show will
be back we're sure at somepoint to explain the whole Billy

(01:45:25):
Piper thing and however wemove forward with Doctor Who, who
knows. But we will be backthen obviously talk about it and
we'll be back again hopefullyin a few months time to review the
spin off the War between theLand and Sea. So we're back for that.
And as I said, the roundtables will still rock and roll as
will the reviews and thearticles on our website and and I'll
drop in. I've got some someepisodes that are going to come up

(01:45:48):
in the next month or two, someinterview stuff. So the big blue
box is not to going goinganywhere at all. But in terms of
us two old fuddy duddieswaffling about current stuff it will
next stuff will be the spinoff. Until then make sure you're
following or subscribing ofcourse to the show. It's on all the
podcast platforms. You canalso listen online over the website

(01:46:09):
bigblueboxpodcast.co.uk andyou can also read the articles and
reviews there. We're on thesocials too. Just do a search for
the big blue box. You'll findus on there. And we've got a great
Discord server which is free.Hop in there and chat doc to other
who fans. Also don't forget toremember to check out my co host
channel. It is of course thegeeks handbag on YouTube.
The geeks handbag, YouTube andall the socials under the name the

(01:46:31):
Geeks Handbag.
Indeedy Deedee. So for thelast time for season two and shoot
his era. That's gonna be itfrom us. Until next time. My name's
Garry. My name's Adam andremember Ra.

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The Reality of Current Doctor Who - Season 2: The Reality War

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The Reality of Current Doctor Who - Season 2: The Reality War