August 6, 2024 • 54 mins
British toy designer Rachel Godfroy joins host Louisa Maxwell to celebrate over sixty years of fashion doll Sindy.
Sindy was launched in 1963 by Pedigree toys at a time when British fashion and music were sweeping the world. The Beatle’s topped the charts with “She Loves You” and Mary Quant’s mini skirts set off a youth quake in fashion. Sindy was a doll created for the British market and she reflected the culture and fashion of a very exciting time.
Louisa and Rachel chart the course of fashion doll Sindy throughout her six decades and her enduring legacy as a time capsule of popular culture and fashion.
Rachel Godfroy, who has worked in the Toy industry for twenty years as a designer, illustrator, and brand developer and was the designer for Sindy’s relaunch in 2020.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
Welcome to the Doll Podcast.
I'm your host, Louisa Maxwell.
Cindy, the fashion doll thatwas launched in the swinging 60s
, celebrated her 60th birthdayin 2023.
It's a milestone birthday for adoll that's a firm favourite
with vintage and moderncollectors alike.
To discuss Cindy and herhistory, my guest is British toy
(00:32):
designer Rachel Godfroy, whohas worked in the toy industry
for 20 years as a designer,illustrator and brand developer,
and was part of the design teamfor Cindy's relaunch in 2020.
Rachel Godfroy, welcome to theDoll Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Thank you very much.
It's amazing to be here.
Thanks for inviting me.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Well, it's really lovely to talk to you again.
We spoke before, when you wereworking on the Cindy project in
2020, and that resulted in somefabulous dolls, and it's really
great to talk to you againbecause we're both Cindy girls,
aren't we?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
I had Cindy in my childhood and I really enjoyed
playing with her.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Oh, me too.
How do you feel?
Speaker 2 (01:25):
about Cindy reaching the milestone birthday of 60
years.
I mean 60 years of Cindy it is.
It's completely amazing.
And I think it's amazing for adoll brand to have gone on this
long, for 60 years, becausethere are a lot of other doll
brands and toy brands which justhaven't lost the distance.
And if you think back to olderbrands like Thomas the Tank
Engine, Rupert the Bear andPaddington, They've all had TV
(01:46):
series and movies and booksabout them and Cindy hasn't had
that.
You know she was always the girlnext door and I think that both
the pedigree and othercompanies that have had her
before Cindy was kind ofdesigned on her own strengths.
She was so different from otherdolls and so for me I'm not
surprised that she's lasted thislong, even though she's had a
(02:09):
lot of changes.
But I think definitely duringthe last 20 years or so, I think
Cindy really has been carriedon by the collectors out there
because they are so passionateabout Cindy and they organise
meet-ups and get get togethers.
And there's an amazing dollconvention in Lincoln which
(02:30):
happens every year, calledDollycon, and my friend Mel
Quint it's amazing she organisesit and the amount of people who
go and are on waiting lists togo, because it's such an amazing
day where a lot of Cindy peoplereally have the same
personality, amazing day where alot of Cindy people really have
the same personality, the sameinterest, so everybody gets on
really, really well.
It's lovely, and it's been solovely for me, being a doll
(02:57):
collector and a doll fan, to beable to design these dolls but
also being able to hear fromtheir points of view of what
they wanted for Cindy too.
So I think that from the lastwell, especially the last few
years, there's definitely been alot of collector input, because
a lot of them are my friendsand complete Cindy fans, just
like me.
So, yeah, it's great.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
You have the distinction of having been part
of the design team for the playline and you've also been part
of the design team for thecollector line.
That came out a couple of yearsago and they're beautiful dolls
.
I have the recreation of cindyin weekenders, which is a lovely
blue and white we'll havepictures on the website but
(03:35):
lovely red, white and blue top.
But this, the doll itself, isvibrant, really beautiful hair.
I mean it's one that personally, I would keep in my collection
forever.
It's just a beautiful doll, andisn't it?
fantastic that there's aconvention like DollyCon and
that everyone can get togetherand there's so many activities
(03:56):
online.
When you go on Instagram, forexample, some of the pictures
are extraordinary that people doand the reroutes and the
creativity around Cindy.
It's a fantastic, vibrantcommunity.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
It's amazing and I love it, when people get vintage
Cindy's that they found in acharity shop and they completely
save them and they show themonline and everybody's like this
is amazing, we love, you know,and it kind of cheers other
people on to do it.
There have been a lot of peoplewho have not really had the
confidence to paint cindy likepaint cindy's face or to re-root
(04:33):
her hair, and other people havejust kind of they're being
cheerleaders for people who aretrying to get into it.
So more and more people aredoing it and it's becoming such
a massive thing that when I lookon doll collector groups now,
you do obviously find a lot ofthe vintage Cindy's there anyway
, but a lot of them are theseamazing Cindy's that other
people have done and placed itwith these incredible dioramas
(04:54):
where they've got amazing shopsand tiny living rooms that
they've created for Cindy Justincredible.
You know I love it.
It's such a massive world ofCindy compared to you know what
we think of other doll brands.
You know I it.
It's such a massive world ofCindy compared to you know what
we think of other doll brands,you know I think it's incredible
you know, the amazing thing isliving here in Vienna.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
I always associate because I had Cindy when I was
growing up in Ireland, um, andyeah, yo, I was fantastic.
But here in Vienna Cindy wasalso a thing too.
So we do find Cindy in the dollcollector shops, but sometimes
in flea markets and other places.
Oh wow, it's great to know thatthe Cindy community is just as
(05:34):
into it here as everywhere else.
She's really a worldwidephenomenon and that's a
wonderful thing.
And I also saw Cindy's.
I was at Puppenfest in Germany.
It's the big doll festival inMay.
Wow, I mean, it's a whole towndevoted to dolls.
You look up and down thestreets and there are stands
(05:55):
selling dolls everywhere.
It's a bit.
My husband got in the car andran away.
And it was just amazing to seeCindy.
I love seeing her as aworldwide phenomenon, and of
course she was in the US as well.
So you know, we've all grown upwith Cindy.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Yeah, it's been amazing.
And I met somebody at Dollycona few years ago.
Her name was Elizabeth and shehad come all the way from the
Far East and she absolutelyloved Cindy.
And it's amazing to hear frompeople from all parts of Europe
and Australia and the USabsolutely love Cindy in all her
forms, whether it's one of thebrand new ones or whether it's
(06:31):
one of the vintage ones.
Everybody seems to have such alove of Cindy, whether it's
nostalgic or something new, thatthey've kind of started
collecting or whatever.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
It's something that's amazing, it's great, I love her
and I've been very lucky herebecause we've really good doll
hospitals so you can bring in.
Some of my limping cindies havenow been had their legs put
back and all kinds of things andyou know, they just look as
good as new.
And then I love a reroute yesso I'm there with the big needle
and my husband just looks at melike what are you doing?
(07:03):
Sticking that?
Oh, I, I'm like, do it Cindy'sReroot.
But there's such joy in it.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
I think there really is a thing of dolly therapy I
really do.
There's so many people I mean Ilove rerouting doll's heads
that it's something that you cando, which is very mindful.
You're working on somethingthat you absolutely love maybe
you had it as a child and whenyou remake, especially one of
your old favorite dolls, youknow and bring it to life in a
completely new way.
(07:28):
I think there's something sothrilling about that.
It's amazing.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
My favorite thing with Cindy is to find a
destroyed, poor side part Cindywho really needs a makeover and
to really give her thatbeautiful side part look again
and then had kind of a fliphairdo.
I mean, it's one of my favoriteCindy looks.
It's just wonderful therapy,like you said, and there's just
(07:53):
so much information.
If anyone is listening to this,I'll give lots of links to
sites that allow you to learnhow to do all these amazing
things for Cindy, because it isa very relaxing thing to do.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
It is.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Cindy was launched in 1963 by Pedigree Toys at a time
when British fashion and musicwere sweeping the world.
The Beatles topped the chartswith she Loves you, yeah, yeah,
yeah, and Mary Quant's miniskirtset off a youthquake in fashion
.
Cindy was a doll created forthe British market and she
(08:31):
reflected the culture andfashion of a very exciting time.
Rachel, do you think Cindy is atime capsule of British pop
culture?
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Absolutely.
I think it's amazing.
I visited the V&A Museum ofChildhood a while ago.
There was something on thereabout toys reflecting the social
culture from every decade andit really brought it home to me
that Cindy was absolutely theepitome of that, especially for
British culture, because I thinkwe have something which is very
(08:59):
different from other countries,especially when it comes to
fashion, and I think, especially, as you've mentioned earlier,
with the 1960s and TuffingtonFall and I think when it got on
to the 1970s, when you reallysaw some of the fashions really
explode, cindy was wearing allof them.
It was incredible.
She had so many outfits andthey really reflected the flares
(09:22):
and the long collared tops thatshe had and all of the dresses
that she had.
All the patterns and the colorswere all so trendy.
It was things that you couldsee.
If you'd walked into a store inthe 70s any high street store
in the UK you would have foundsomething that Cindy would have
worn, which was kind ofincredible.
And then for me my childhood ofCindy was the 1980s, the early
(09:44):
80s.
So for me I was watching Top ofthe Pops and Princess Diana was
going to get married to Charles, so of course, like that was
enormous.
And you know, pedigree broughtout a Cindy with short hair like
Princess Diana.
Her wedding dress looked verymuch like the Princess Diana
wedding dress that you saw,looked very much like the
Princess Diana wedding dressthat you saw.
(10:05):
And of course they had theEmanuels who designed Princess
Diana's wedding dress design awhole load of evening dresses
for her as well.
And again she had just massesand masses of clothes, which I
used to go into a shop calledChelsea Girl which was kind of a
high street, very trendy storeand you could buy things in
there that you would find onCindy Not exactly the same, but
(10:27):
you could tell that the wholething had been influenced by
what was happening that year infashion.
It was absolutely brilliant.
And of course, all thehairstyles as well.
It was very, very 80s.
It was great.
And then even with thefurniture as well, with the
1970s, the amazing kitchen thatyou could buy you could have
found that in any kind ofcatalogue and it was amazing
(10:49):
because it all worked.
And that's what I think Ithought was just fantastic that
you would be able to open thedoor and the light of the fridge
would come on.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Oh yeah, the stove had something in it as well, it
heated up if you put batteriesin the back it did something you
know.
It was really interestingbecause it captures.
You know, if you watch likestuff like now, my era is more
of the 70s.
But if you watch things likemary tyler moore, for instance,
or any of these famous sitcomsyou know from the 60s, 70s, 80s,
(11:18):
you see cindy's housereflecting that kind of
distilled look that they want toget at the time to capture
what's in like in anyLittlewoods catalog or whatever
Sears if you're in the US folks,or wherever we are around the
world.
But it's really interestingthat the dolls were reflecting
(11:41):
what was going on.
But it was so tiny details likelittle potatoes to go in the
pot that went on the stove.
And, of course, everyone'sfavorite yes, folks, cindy's
toilet, let's.
Yes, cindy was brave enough tosay I have a toilet.
Yes, that girl could keep itreal.
(12:02):
I mean, I don't know, I don'tremember barbie having a toilet
no, never she'd an airplane.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
She'd a camper, she had multiple vehicles, but I
don't remember having a toilet,I mean yeah, and I mean, how
much fun did every child havepretending that their cindy was
going to the toilet?
I thought it was brilliant,brilliant, and the bath went
with it.
So you know the shower and thebath.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
You'd have one in the bath, one in the toilet and you
know your younger sister woulddecide to put water in
everything.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Yep Not realizing.
You know there's a lot ofcardboard involved in this house
.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
So maybe water is not a good idea 's.
It's brilliant because itallows children to really act
out.
You know a little life for thedoll and then think about what
kind of little life they wouldlike.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
You know if they're their own little house and I
think as well.
I think that especially youngchildren, they have a lot of
rules they have to follow, youknow, obviously just to keep
them safe and everything else.
So I think that Cindyespecially, and other dolls, but
I think for me especially, youcould act out whatever you
wanted to with Cindy, with norules whatsoever.
You know she had a house, shehad a car, but to me she was a
(13:18):
young teenager which in an adultworld obviously you wouldn't
have.
But you could make her.
You know you could make her doanything that you wanted to.
A lot of the time I used tolike pretending that she was a
princess in an enchanted castle.
You know I'd make a cardboardcastle for her and pretend that
we were back in medieval times.
You know she wasn't always forme like the 1980s trendsetter,
(13:39):
but she was for everybody.
But I think that was it.
I think a lot of the furnitureand the doll's house, the tv
studio and the hospital that shehad there was a hospital.
There was a hospital.
Well, it was a hospital playset and it was amazing you'll
have to look it up because it'sincredible and it had two sides
to it.
So one was the operatingtheater and the other side was a
(14:00):
hospital ward where she had thebed, and it literally I'm not
kidding it came with like a tinyplastic syringe.
It came with a bag that youcould kind of hang up on one of
those lines so you could put aniv drip into her, had x-rays and
things that turned off andturned on, and a little um, a
little tray that went over thebed which had water and a bit of
food for her, and I justthought it was brilliant.
(14:23):
Oh gosh, that is brilliant.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
I wish I had that.
I have the tv studio that wasamazing.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
I loved that, you know, and what was great for I
think for me especially thatwhere they had the weather, like
the weather charts on the back,that was exactly like the BBC's
, you know, there'd be somebodystanding there, a guy called
Michael Fish who was like theweatherman at the time, and he
would be sticking these stickers.
But it was that kind of thing,I think.
For me, cindy, compared withBarbie and other dolls, cindy
(14:52):
felt more real, I think, becauseshe was, even though obviously
she didn't look realistic inthat way.
She had a well-cautioned bodybut obviously her head didn't
look realistic.
But for me she was more realthan any other doll that I had
because of the world that shelived in and because of the
clothes that she dressed in,because it was what I was seeing
all around me and then I couldrecreate straight in front of me
(15:13):
as a child, which was great.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
It's not a fashion model style.
It's, as you said, the kind ofthing you went into a shop as a
young teen and bought on aSaturday.
So if you were looking at yourolder sister and being a bit
aspirational, when you walk downthe high street, you were
seeing the same kind of clothesas Cindy wore and, of course,
Cindy's.
As you said, Cindy's firstwardrobe drew on the talents of
(15:39):
design team Tuffin and Foll andthey did fantastic graphic print
mini skirts and dresses andthese were the thing to wear
shopping in the boutiques of theKing's Road or Carnaby Street.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
And then, of course, mary.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Quant is another famous name associated with
Cindy, so the pedigree designteam and designer Valerie
Saunders transformed thesecouture designs into looks fit
for fashion doll Cindy.
Rachel, when you're designingfashions for Cindy, what's the
biggest challenge?
Speaker 2 (16:11):
I think the biggest challenge today is that there
are so many trends going on andfashion is so fast that
something that back in the 1980sand even the 1990s, you could
pretty much predict what wasgoing to happen next year and
you'd be able to do the doll'seye knowing that it would be
relevant for the year afterwards.
What we have now is that, withInstagram and social media and
(16:31):
teen fashion going so quicklyall the time, it's knowing then
which fashion trends you wouldlike to capture for Cindy and
which ones that you think Idon't think that's going to last
or not.
So there's an awful lot ofresearch that goes into that,
because sometimes it can be hitand miss.
And the other big designchallenge, I think, is that
Cindy and, for now, a lot offashion dolls is that the
(16:54):
children who are playing withCindy are much younger than they
were, like you know, 20, 30years ago.
So they're much younger.
So you need to make sure that,keeping with Cindy's girl next
door character, that all of thefashions are age appropriate and
fun and that the clothes can beput on and taken off and
exchanged really easily, becausethat's really frustrating when
(17:15):
you have a fashion doll and youcan't put the clothes on, and
then also obviously, making surethat all of the fashion is
still on trend.
And I think one of the waysthat I get around that is I
always see Cindy as a teenagerthrough a child's eyes, so you
never think you 'd never have tothink that you're an adult.
When you're designing anythingfor children, toy wise, you have
(17:37):
to think you know it's achild's rules, and so for me
it's a lot of.
I think when people werecertainly saying with these new
Cindy play line, they weresaying, well, there's a lot of
pastels, there's a lot of pinksand lilacs and that kind of
thing.
And we know that the reasonthat we used a lot of those
colors was because it soldreally well.
That's the colors that youngkids are dressing themselves in,
(17:58):
and it was the colors that theyliked.
They chose for theiraccessories as well and their
bedding and their bedrooms, likethey chose for their
accessories as well and theirbedding and their bedrooms.
And we did try other colors.
We did a lot of market research, but the young kids that were
looking at this really preferredall the pinks and the lilacs,
so we were going with them.
You know it wasn't kind ofsomething that we thought that
we would just dream up.
We went out with a lot of kids'opinions and I think also, I
(18:21):
suppose for me as well, thinkingof the budget obviously that
you get, which is very boringand technical.
I mean, if it was me, I wouldlove Cindy to be like this doll,
that you could have everyaccessory possible in with it.
You know, and I always wantedto design a doll which has a
whole lot of clothes that wentin it as well, and obviously you
can't do that when you'redesigning commercially.
(18:42):
So a lot of things andaccessories that I would put in
these dolls were eventuallytaken out because they just
would have been too expensive.
The design team, we all agreedthat we needed to keep it at a
price that would be affordablefor everybody, because the
collector's dolls obviously wereexpensive and for a play line.
We knew that there were otherdolls out there, like the LOLs
(19:03):
and the Rainbow Highs and Barbie, which were really really
expensive, and we wanted Cindyto be really high quality and to
have moving joints andeverything.
It wouldn't be a basic dollEvery doll would be the same and
have the same quality to it,but we wanted to make sure that
we were on budget as well.
So you have all these things tothink about budget and then
(19:24):
fashion trends, and then arekids going to like it?
Are they going to be into thisnext year?
And then you also have to lookat TV shows as well and what
they're into.
What movies are coming out nextyear too.
So I often find myself livingthe life of a six-year-old,
watching the movies on Disneyand that kind of thing.
And it's funny when I do meetyoung kids and they kind of look
(19:45):
at me like this grown adult andI'm chatting to them about
something.
And then I say, oh, have youseen this movie recently?
And they kind of look at me andthey're like, how do you know
about that?
Or what's your favorite CareBear or my Little Pony and
they're like, wow, how do youknow about that kind of stuff?
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Yeah, I know, they think everything started with
them and they're like wow, howdo you know about that kind?
Speaker 2 (20:05):
of stuff.
Yeah, I know they thinkeverything started with them.
Yes, absolutely yeah.
So it's really important, Ithink, especially for me to
remain relevant all the time.
So, but I am.
We're all looking at adultfashion as well as teen fashion
and child fashion and trying toget a good balance between all
of that and the budget too.
So it's not really just, Isuppose, one challenge.
There's a lot of differentchallenges that all come with it
(20:27):
.
But, of course, if you'redesigning for Cindy and it's
designing for, like, yourchildhood idol and best friend,
and we all really put our heartsand souls into it, so every,
every tiny decision that we putinto it was really really well
thought out.
You know, just because we lovethe doll so much, it it was
great.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Well, it's true, it's like even us together making
this podcast.
I mean, why are we making it?
Because we love Cindy.
She just spoke to us throughoutour childhood and, as we
mentioned before, thousands andthousands of people all over the
planet love Cindy.
She's just so popular.
The planet love Cindy.
(21:07):
She's just so popular.
When I think back about Cindymy favorite- still is Weekenders
because it was such a kind ofcutting edge thing Jeans were
coming in as a thing and Iremember getting a pair and that
was really new and she worejeans and you identified with
that and it meant you were.
It made you feel teenage, itmade you feel separate from
adults, even though there's alot of great fashions to wear
(21:29):
and mod fab stuff going on, evenas a kid, but what was really
lovely was that she was justthis little model that you held
in your hand and you felt likeshe really did shop in really
great boutiques where teenagegirls would actually shop.
What's your favorite Cindyoutfit?
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Oh my goodness.
Well, I think I'm an 80s Cindykid, so the early 80s was just
my biggest thing for me, andalthough I wasn't really into
fashion as a kid, I was reallyinto kind of more fantasy, I
suppose.
So one of my favorite, favoriteCindy's her look was space
fantasy.
I'd never seen a doll with pinkhair before and especially
(22:14):
Cindy and that she was wearingthis incredible like pink and
silver outfit which was totallyout of this world.
I'd never seen anything like itbefore.
Although I'd seen her in thecatalog, I didn't actually get
her until about 10 years agowhen I got her in the box
winning her on an auction.
It was one of those amazingkind of childhood experiences
suddenly flashing back to youand you think, wow, I've
(22:36):
actually managed to get thisafter all these years.
And you know, I think I wasjust as excited about getting
that doll as I was when I wouldhave been about nine.
It was incredible.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
I really understand this.
I bought for the first time.
I bought Cindy a present forher 60th birthday, oh, brilliant
.
But I bought her Paul becausewe never had a Paul in my
collection or my sister'scollection and I just feel, you
know, it'd be nice for Cindy tomeet him.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
But more about him later.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
It is an amazing sensation when you find that
childhood memory.
I remember because myWeekenders doll went a long time
ago and when I recreated thatmemory by buying one, it was an
amazing moment.
And then after that, I found aphotograph of myself holding my
(23:25):
original Cindy so it's like youget a little bit of that person
back and you think about theperson you are now.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
So getting the pink haired one.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
That's a great doll.
She looks like something offTop of the Pops from.
Legs and Co.
They used to have all thesedancers.
For those of you who didn'tgrow up with Top of the Pops,
they have all these fabulousdancers.
They're really marvelousdancers who used to come out and
do these great routines towhatever the top number one song
was, and Cindy was capturingthat.
(23:55):
Look that we saw every week.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Yeah yeah, they had another one called Starlight
Cindy and she was wearing thisreally sparkly, shiny, crazy
suit that you would have seenpop stars wearing on top of the
pops.
And she was another one and shehad crimped hair.
Of course crimped hair in the80s was really in, and she was
another one of my favorites aswell.
I thought she was incredible.
(24:17):
There were so many.
I suppose the one look, whichis very I suppose it's what
Cindy's really most popular forwas the ballerina.
She stayed with me, you know,always, and I even remember as a
little kid, you know, doing upher little laces at the back,
these little plastic laces, andmaking her pose in different
ways.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
The little laces on the shoes once they came undone.
It was a nightmare.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
It took hours, hours, just for the popper Kids.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
that's how we kept out of trouble way back then,
because we didn't have mobilephones.
So we were there trying to tieCindy's shoes on instead of
having an iPhone and being onTikTok.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Yeah, take you hours.
Just the same amount of time, Ithink.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Yeah, it was wonderful the ballerina was a
really beautiful Cindy and itcame in this rather long box
where she posed doing a splitand the costume was excellent
and the mobility of the doll'sbody, the joints, the hand joint
, the ankle joint it was reallybeautiful.
It was a beautiful doll.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
No one had ever seen that before either.
I think, especially for me whenBarbie was just starting to
come in to the UK.
Then, and I think that whatreally got me, my mum bought me
a Barbie when I was about nineor 10 and it was peaches and
cream and it was very, veryglamorous, but she had arms that
were just kind of stuck at thehalfway elbow position and
(25:44):
didn't move.
I found that Barbie's body andher hands were really made of
hard plastic and of course,cindy had these wonderful vinyl
limbs which was soft, and Ifound her very easy to dress.
And I found in Barbie's shoes Iwas always leaving them
somewhere because they were sotiny and with Cindy you had
these shoes which were easy toput on and stayed on.
(26:05):
You know, I also had shaping upCindy as well, which was one of
my favorites, and she obviouslywas right out of the 80s.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
she looked like she had just come out yeah, she was
going for the burn with JaneFonda.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Yes, and I remember getting the box.
I remember having it atChristmas and it had written on
the front over 115 poses and Iremember sitting there on
Christmas morning trying to workout which one would be the 115
poses.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
You know, what would be a great thing to do on TikTok
is get that doll and try and dothe 115 poses you know.
Put it in a reel or somethingit'd be amazing, try it out.
Someone's going to do that nowthey will send it to us send it
to us.
We want to see it, but that'sthe thing the chat know.
(26:56):
A toy should challenge you.
It shouldn't just be somethingthat's plonk there in front of
you.
You need to engage and sheengaged.
All through the decades withvarious trends like fitness.
There was a lot of royaltythemed dolls.
There was dolls that came outto celebrate various milestones
(27:16):
in the late queen elizabeth'sreign and various anniversaries
and things and they werebeautiful dolls and they were,
they were, they were channeling.
There was a kind of a.
You know, the maxi dress was abig thing in the 70s.
They kind of channeled thatedwardian vibe but it was really
cool and on trend and, as yousaid, the Emanuels, so many
(27:37):
wonderful designers who workedwith Cindy.
But we mentioned of course shehad this boyfriend, Paul, and
she had little sister Patch.
And you know, just like Cindy,Paul's wardrobe, his wardrobe
was really on trend too.
He shared his name withheartthrob Paul McCartney of the
Beatles, and that can't be loston pop fans, and he drew his
(28:00):
fashion inspiration from popstar style too.
So did you have Paul or Patch?
We had Patch.
My little sister had Patch, butI had Cindy, and Patch was so
cute with the school uniform andall those things.
As I said, I didn't get Paultill now.
Did you have Paul?
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Funnily enough, no.
So I have a little brother andhe had Action man, so I was
quite happy.
I don't think I ever asked forPaul, because obviously Cindy
had her Action man and theycould be articulated in the same
way that Cindy could.
So that was brilliant.
They were always going off todances and getting on adventures
together.
And I didn't have a patch doll.
I always wanted one but I neverhad one.
(28:41):
The closest I got was a dollcalled Amanda Jane, but she was
very much smaller than Cindy.
But yeah, I suppose back in theearly 80s patch wasn't sold
again.
You know that that was the endof it was at the 60s.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
When did?
When was she withdrawn in the70s?
Speaker 2 (28:57):
it must have been the 70s.
Yeah, it's a shame, but I meanwhen I started working for Cindy
back in the late 90s, whenVivid Imaginations had taken the
license for manufacturing Cindyfrom Hasbro, they brought back
Patch and Paul in a differentform.
So they brought back Patch, asCindy's little sister Didn't
look anything like the originalPatch.
(29:19):
I thought she was a bit of anot very good looking version,
but so they called her Pattyinstead of Patch.
So I wanted maybe I wassupposed to update the name and
then, of course, paul.
In exactly the same vein asthey named Paul, cindy's
boyfriend was called Robbie.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Wait a minute, that's a bit controversial.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Yes, it is, isn't it?
I don't know if I'd want mychild playing with Robbie
Williams.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
That's true.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
This was kind of in the old, like the very start of
the Take that era.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
I'm thinking of when he was first.
I mean, he's a great performer.
I'm a fan, don't get me wrong.
Well, you know, when you'redealing with children, you kind
of want a pop star.
That you know.
You know, paul mccartney seemedsuper.
The beatles looked, yeah, supersqueaky clean, but of course,
at the time, their hair, theirhaircuts and Paul had that same
haircut to adults who had grownup in the 50s the Beatles looked
(30:18):
very, very different.
So I suppose maybe that's thethe element you always need,
that you're thinking ahead onwhat kids are engaging with
today.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Yeah, as you said, I think yeah, especially because
around that time as well waswhen the Spice Girls were around
.
So the reason that Cindy's bestfriend was called Mel was after
Mel B.
So you know the scary Spice.
So you know she was really mucha millennial girl.
Back then, again, she tookinspiration from pop stars and
(30:50):
that kind of thing too, popstars and that kind of thing too
.
So a lot of the friends thatshe had, or the um, obviously
Robbie that she had as well theoutfits that they had, even
though obviously they weren't asbeautifully created as the ones
back in the 60s and 70s, theywere still very much kind of
millennial on trend at the timeyeah, it was what was happening,
yeah in the UK especially yeah,it is really interesting
(31:13):
because the UK is a veryfast-paced fashion market and it
just moves so quickly and Cindyhad to stay right on trend with
all of that and that's amazingthat she did.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
Yeah, cindy has had her share of different looks
over the decades.
In 1986, she opted for a newface sculpt and a more slender
figure, and in 1989 she had tomake over again with a more
adult face and figure.
Do you think she was trying tobe more like her rival barbie?
Speaker 2 (31:48):
yeah, I, I think, well, I think from.
I suppose my perspective isthat Hasbro took over the
license to manufacture Cindy andof course they're an American
company and I think they reallywanted to bring Cindy to the
mass market and introduce acompetitor to Barbie, and I
think that's why they thought,right, well, let's make her look
(32:11):
more American to appeal to thatmarket.
So of course, they made Cindylook far more like Barbie with
this, as you say, the slenderfigure and the smaller, more
realistic head.
But of course Mattel then fileda lawsuit against them, saying
that you really can't have adoll like Cindy who looks so
(32:31):
much like Barbie.
Now, so apparently I thinkHasbro sent over a whole load of
face sculpts to Mattel and theywere the ones who actually said
well, you may have these ones,you can choose from these ones.
These ones are the ones that wewill accept, we will not sue
you for, but the other ones thatyou have used we're not.
You know we don't need to usethem.
So so, yeah, so they kind ofcarried on that way.
But of course, cindy Reid didn'tmake any US markets.
(32:53):
She was still very big in theUK but, as you say, barbie was
massive, she was becomingenormous in the UK as well,
especially because of all theAmerican influences that we had,
all the TV shows that we had.
You know those movies, you knowit was amazing.
So Barbie suddenly became morerelatable to kids because they
were watching American TV showsand getting American popular
(33:15):
culture.
For me, I think that was one ofthe worst decisions that were
made for Cindy, because she hadsuch a unique look and I think
they could have carried her onin the same way that in Japan,
the Takara Nikuchan doll hasn'tchanged her face since 1986.
And she's been really popularsince.
And although I know, obviously,that our culture is different
(33:35):
there and the populationobviously favours a different
look for the doll, I still thinkthat we had such an individual
and classic look for Cindy thatI think we could have pulled off
for the last 60 years, you know, just by changing little bits
here and there.
So although I think thatCindy's gone through so many
different changes after lookingvery much more like her American
(34:00):
counterpart, I'm so pleasedthat now we managed to get her
back to how I thought she shouldhave originally have been.
She should have been like myfavorite doll, which was the
early 1980s one.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
When she came back and you were part of the design
team that brought her back in2020, she was right on trend
because she came back, as yousaid, with a face sculpt, which
was from her earlier era, andshe was back to being Cindy but
her jobs and the things she wasdoing.
She was exploring life as amedia influencer, also a pet
(34:34):
groomer, and she came with allthese cute tiny animals.
It was really, really sweet.
She was a stylist, she was adancer and ballerina, she was a
florist, came with loads ofgreat accessories and a baker
too, so she was getting ready toget on TV and win one of those
challenges.
What challenges did therelaunch of such an iconic brand
(34:57):
give you as a designer?
Because everybody grew up withCindy, so the moms who are there
buying for their children arelooking and going it's Cindy.
It was a big challenge.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
Yeah, yeah, I think for me, because I'd had about 30
years of thinking about it andI really had promised my
nine-year-old self.
I really promised myself that Iwas going to change Cindy one
day, because I didn't like herlook when she changed in 1986.
And so I think in my head formany, many years I thought it
really Cindy.
For me, the epitome of whatCindy should look like in my own
(35:29):
opinion was the Cindy from theearly 80s.
And when Pedigree contacted meto say that kit creations were
going to had got the contract tomake a cindy doll, uh, I met,
uh, linda osborne, who's the umceo of kit creations, and I had
just been making some.
Well, so, just getting vintagecindy dolls from the early 80s
(35:50):
and making them look like byrerouting and repainting, making
them look really, really ontrend for like 2019, and they'd
been looking at other bodysculpts and everything before
I'd even come on board and Lindasaid to me well, what do you
think in your opinion Cindyshould look like?
And I literally just pulled outof this, this bag that I had
with me, one of my 90s or 2019Cindy's and even made the box
(36:15):
for it and everything.
So it really did come off theshelf and she took one look and
she just said, oh my god, oh mygoodness me, I didn't realize
that this 1980s Cindy couldactually look so modern.
I think, whatever we're doing,we need to start focusing on
this doll sculpt.
And I was like brilliant, thisis great.
And I was explaining as well toher.
I said, look the the shape ofCindy's body is amazing as well
(36:38):
because, um, she's wellproportioned to which, obviously
in um, this day and age isreally, really important.
You know you, I didn't want todo a stick, thin, kind of
Hasbro-esque Cindy.
We wanted to make her withbetter proportions and also then
obviously then that carries onto designing clothes that will
fit her really well, that youcan dress and undress really
(36:58):
easily if you're a young child.
So I actually I gave KidCreations one of my childhood
doll heads.
The whole doll, I think, hadbeen so loved and played with.
There really wasn't very muchmore I could do with that.
I was going to re-root hermyself, so she didn't have any
hair, she was completely bald,and I gave the head to Kid
Creations and they sent it offto the factory for them to
(37:21):
prototype from that head.
So it was.
I think it was a 1983 Popsinger.
I think that was a 1983 popsinger.
Um, I think that was the, thedog that had the one with short
hair.
So she really was.
And I said, like we really gotto get her like the 1980s body.
So I was taking photos and wewere doing measurements of
everything just to make surethat her arms were the same
(37:41):
length as Cindy's.
And although Cindy had thevinyl rubber arms and we had, we
couldn't do that obviously,because it's like manufacturing
health and safety these days.
If you compare the arm widthand the arm shape to an active
vintage 80s Cindy doll, theyshould be pretty much the same
shape and the same length as an80s doll.
(38:03):
She's got the same hands aswell as the 80s doll too, as as
an 80s doll, she's got the samehands as well as the 80s doll
too.
So really, I mean, even likeright down to um, you know how I
make them and everything, I waslike this is a doll.
We've got to do so I think,from from that part, that was
definitely, uh, not a challengefor me because I was so
headstrong, I suppose, but Ithink, but in another way, after
(38:24):
we'd kind of got all of this.
Of course, there was so manydesign challenges that came on
after that because Pedigreeobviously you know I just wanted
to bring back Cindy as she wasand Pedigree said, no, we need
her now to be more than just afashion doll because of
everything else that is outthere.
You know, we've had everything.
You know dolls are fairlyoutrageous now and we need to
(38:45):
bring back Cindy in her lovely,wholesome form but still in a
way that would get her noticed.
So we kind of went back to thedrawing board and I was, uh,
thinking for ages and I thoughtI need to go back to what's the
basics of why I love Cindy andnostalgia about it.
And before, um, I got a Cindyhouse, I used to love making
(39:06):
stuff for Cindy and I was alwayslike I was even trying to make
dresses out of tissue paper.
It was crazy and I was alwaysgetting cardboard shoe boxes and
making beds and you know,really decorating all of that
kind of thing.
And I remember I thought tomyself it's funny because I
always had as much fun doingthat as I did.
Once I put Cindy in my littlemock-up that I had made and I
(39:29):
thought, well, we've got this,we're not going to do any
furniture for the launch.
We had a very small budget.
So why couldn't we makesomething like Cindy was
supposed to be?
Because Cindy was always onedoll and her world around her.
I always thought that was theway she really differentiated
herself from Barbie.
With Barbie, you have one dollthat was a ballerina, and if you
(39:49):
wanted a mermaid doll you'd goand buy another doll.
You had an outfit for her andcertain dolls came with certain
play sets.
But with Cindy, you had yourone doll or several that you
really bonded with and youbrought in different furniture
and accessories to add to herworld.
I thought this was reallyimportant and something which
was very different, and so westarted looking at the doll box
(40:13):
and how much play value we couldput into it, and that's when we
started coming up with.
So when we were doing, say, thebakery, why can't we put
something in there that you canmake?
We'd have to cut out yourself.
We were going to just put themin so you could just build.
It can make.
You'd have to cut out yourself.
We were going to just put themin so you could just build it.
We thought, no, let's reallyget into crafting here, because
arts and crafts are massive inthe toy industry.
Young kids love doing crafts.
(40:35):
You see it all on YouTube.
There's a lot of people outthere who are making things for
fashion dolls, for theirdioramas or for playing with
it's all over Instagram.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
Both adult collectors make things.
I have to confess that I walkedinto Ikea last week and I
wasn't the least bit interestedin whatever book case or serious
thing we came for.
I was like, look, there's tinyfurniture over there and I said
I don't know, I don't reallyneed it, but I really want it
and I thought it was a bitmid-century modern, so it'd be
(41:06):
really cool.
Of course, when will I havetime to do this?
I don't know, but I loved itand I just said this would make
a wonderful photograph and youknow, that is also part of what
kids are thinking when they setthings out and set out their
little world.
And those dolls with the floristor the pet groomer so the pet
(41:27):
groomer doll.
I thought this had great playvalue.
Yeah, because it's.
It's a wonderful piece for achild to get all these little
fun things to do.
All the dolls.
I really love what you did withthe doll's hair, because they
had a lot of hair play value, alot of length, a lot of
different colors, a lot ofdifferent textures, and you were
(41:49):
exploring how kids look now.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Yeah, that was so important, I think back in.
Well, back in the early 80s,for me we had Cindy that was
dark, brunette, auburn andblonde, and for me Cindy was
Cindy, regardless of her haircolor.
Every single Cindy was exactlythe same to me.
You know I was thinking this isCindy, but she's got, you know,
ginger hair and I think thatwas something that really stuck
(42:12):
with me and that was anotherthing that really put Cindy's
streets ahead from other fashiondolls at the time, a long time
ago, and it was one thing that Ireally wanted to bring into the
doll when we were designing her, because I was saying they were
saying, well, do we do Cindywith a whole lot of friends with
different ethnicities?
(42:33):
And I just said, well, no, Isaid you know, for a long time
Cindy's tagline in the early2000s was Cindy, she's just like
me.
And I said, well, if, yeah, ifwe're kind of promoting a doll
with blonde hair and blue eyesand saying this is what you've
got to look like, to be likecindy, I said that's kind of
it's ridiculous.
You know, every child is reallybeautiful, so we need to
celebrate that cindy can be allof these kids, you know, um,
(42:54):
whoever they are.
I want them to be able to gointo a shop and go oh my good,
mommy, look, this doll lookslike me, or look you know, it's
the most important thingcompletely, I think, especially
from hearing from collectors andmyself.
I didn't know that there was ablack Cindy until I got the
History of Cindy book andthere's a black ballerina on the
cover.
I just thought she's the mostbeautiful.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
Cindy ever.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
Yeah, I have two.
I'm so lucky I bought them along time ago, not the crazy
prices that they are now.
So I love Gail.
She's incredible.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
Even when Cindy was everywhere, they were hard to
find.
Yes, they were hard to find,and now things are getting much
better because children havefriends from all different
ethnicities.
So why shouldn't everyone seethemselves as Cindy?
It's meant to be a reflectionof you.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
And I think for me, I always said that for every
cindy doll that we were going tomake, we were going to make it
slightly different, though therewould never be one cindy doll
the same, because, also as acollector in my collector's hat
on you don't want the same dollin a different outfit.
You want a different doll, evenif it's in the same outfit.
The fact you have a doll whichhas got slightly different eye
color or different skin color,you want that for your
(44:06):
collection, because otherwiseit's not a whole collection, you
know, and it's something alittle bit different.
Speaker 1 (44:10):
They have a slightly different character.
It's the same doll, so sheplays a different character.
So maybe she puts on thesparkly dress or something I
thought was really wonderful,and that's the onesie because
there was a huge trend where theonesie was everywhere, and one
of the fashions that came withCindy recently is this really
(44:32):
cute little onesie and I boughtit for my collection and
actually kept it in the boxbecause I just thought great,
moment in time fashion, it's notsuch a big thing now.
Speaker 2 (44:43):
But yeah, just 10 years ago christmas morning we
were all wearing our santa clausonesies or reindeers or
whatever it was a big thing um,yeah, yeah, you know, and she
was reflecting that, and that'sa really important thing and I
think what was what wasbrilliant I think as well about
kid creations was that theyreally went into detail, like
(45:03):
the original sims.
How I remembered it.
So, with that unicorn onesie,she had little wings on the back
which you probably couldn't seefrom the package, and the hood
was actually embroidered on.
You know the little face.
So there were so many littletiny things that we could put in
within budget as well whichjust made Cindy that extra, a
little bit extra better thanthings that you'd see, and it's
(45:27):
extra better.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
Pardon me.
It's extra better play valuewhether you're an adult
collector or whether you're achild, you know it's play value,
play value for us thatphotograph the dolls and enjoy
them that way through socialmedia.
But more important than that,folks, is that the kid gets it
out of the box and says oh, Ilove this.
(45:49):
Look at this cute thing.
It reflects something about youknow, the marvelous thing about
childhood is that we're allowedto reinvent ourselves.
We can be Spider-Man one day.
We can be Fairy Princess thenext day.
The dolls should reflect thatkind of fun.
Yeah, absolutely yeah,completely.
(46:12):
Rachel, when we're talkingabout all these wonderful dolls
and wonderful memories, Ibelieve there's going to be a
new Cindy released for Cindy's60th anniversary.
Speaker 2 (46:20):
And I've seen that online.
She wears a sparkly dress andshe's got blonde hair and she's
a really beautiful doll yeah,well, kit creations, who I now
work for, are manufacturing thedoll, and pedigree made all the
design decisions.
So it is probably pedigree'sdoll and she's beautiful.
She's got the most amazingdetails.
(46:41):
The only thing that I think wecouldn't do were the rooted
eyelashes on the doll, becausethe company that we used for the
collector's dolls, sadly itclosed.
Maybe it was the pandemic, Idon't know, but the company
isn't around anymore, so thefactory that we would always use
for that kind of thing had shutdown.
But I don't think.
In a way although withcollector dolls they do they
(47:03):
love the eyelashes and for me,you know, if I could have
somehow got the eyelashes on, Iwould have loved that, and
there'll be an awful lot ofcollectors who will be putting
eyelashes on their dolls.
Speaker 1 (47:11):
I'm sure let's get the needles out now, ladies.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
Yes, yeah, I'm sure she's got gorgeous dark blonde
hair.
It's a lovely colour and herdress was going to originally be
pale pink but with littlesparkly bits on.
The pedigree really wanted thedress to be very diamond-esque
for, I suppose, her diamondanniversary.
(47:34):
So it took us a very long timeto find a fabric that was
manuable enough to make intothis dress design that we had,
especially with the puffballunderneath the puffball skirt,
and also looked really sparklyas well.
And we managed to find someamazing fabric, which the
factory were able to find aswell, and make the dress how
(47:55):
Pedigree wanted it to.
And then we went back to all ofthe different sources that we
had that had done the originalcollector's, cindy dolls for all
of the tiny shoes and thehandbags and the beautiful
accessories.
And so she's got the mostbeautiful little diamond drop
earrings that she wears and shehas a necklace, because she has
(48:16):
an off-the-shoulder dress, so wethought it'd be nice.
But she was going to have abracelet.
We thought, no, let's kind ofaccentuate the neckline.
We she's got a beautiful silvernecklace with a heart, what
looks like a diamond heartpendant on it, and then her
shoes I think are the mostfabulous things you'll ever see,
because they are gorgeous.
They're tiny, silver, sparkly,strappy sandals with a real
(48:40):
buckle.
They just look amazing.
They really do.
And she has this gorgeoussilver, sparkly handbag with a
little heart on it and I thoughtit was really important to kind
of put the the heart in to allof this because, yes, she's, she
has been loved for 60 years.
But also, I think Cindy hasalways been synonymous with
hearts in the heart shape toCindy logo yeah yeah, and the
(49:02):
tokens that she's had.
So I think that we wanted to putsomething else like that into
it.
And yes, and so we.
Now we just do themanufacturing.
It's all now up to Pedigree.
They're going to be doing themagazine and everything else.
They're the ones who are goingto be selling.
I think you can now pre-orderthem on the website.
So for me, it'll be great tosee them when they, when they
(49:23):
eventually come out because, um,it's all now.
It's all now pedigree's baby,isn't it wonderful?
Speaker 1 (49:29):
there's another cindy to look forward to and of
course, we'll put links to allthe information about that on
our doll podcast website, rachel.
It's amazing to think cindy is60 and I have to say that, and I
love Barbie, but I always willbe a Cindy girl because I can
remember my mom giving me myfirst Cindy and it was a really
(49:53):
lovely moment.
She was giving me something andshe was the first fashion doll
I had and I really felt thatthis was a really special thing
and it was a special moment.
It's an amazing thing to thinkthat she's been part of so many
people's lives.
So I know I'm still a Cindygirl.
Are you still a Cindy girl,rachel?
Speaker 2 (50:13):
I will always be a Cindy girl and I think a lot of
my friends definitely feel thesame way as well.
They are definitely Cindypeople and I think it's because
she resonated with us so much atthe time we were able to relate
to her so much.
To me she really was my bestfriend.
You know, if I was feelinglonely I would just take out my
(50:34):
Cindy dolls.
It was also when I had newfriends at school.
First thing I would be askingwas do you play with Cindy, you
know?
And so I had a lot of fun, notjust only playing with Cindy on
my own, but with my friends too,and I think that just kind of
throughout the the years, thatkind of most nostalgic, firm
bond that I had with Cindy stillremains.
(50:57):
And I think this is why Cindyis just such a beautiful and a
magical doll for so many people,because I think they feel
exactly the same way that I do.
There's a lot of warmth, a lotof nostalgia and a lot of love
for this British fashion doll.
But to me it wasn't so much ofa fashion doll.
She was so much more than that.
To me it was about Cindy'sworld and the world that you
(51:18):
were able to immerse yourselfinto, and I think I will always
be a collector.
I'm always still collectingvintage Cindy from all decades,
yeah, and I just hope that Cindycarries on for the next 60
years in whatever guise she'sgoing to be in.
You know she's such a, I think,an important fashion and toy
icon for the UK and I know thata lot of women who had Cindy
(51:43):
when she first came out, who arenow grandmothers themselves,
you know, are thankfully stillbuying Cindy because they're
still on the shelves at themoment and giving them to their
grandchildren.
So they're still carrying onthis memory.
I even know of collectors whohave got together just to buy
the new Cindy's and spend anafternoon doing the crafts from
the boxes all together and sentme photos of them doing it.
(52:03):
It's just lovely.
It's just such an amazing kindof energy that people have.
It's like Cindy energy.
It's incredible.
Yeah, once you are a Cindyperson, you are always a Cindy
person.
Speaker 1 (52:13):
Well, I couldn't agree more, and I hope that
Cindy has 60 years and many,many more.
Rachel Godfroy, thank you forjoining us on the Doll Podcast
to celebrate Cindy.
Speaker 2 (52:25):
Thank you so, so much .
It's been wonderful to be here.
Speaker 1 (52:27):
Thank you it's been such fun every time we get
together.
Thank you, rachel oh, thank you.
Thank you, brilliant, I've lovedit thank you for joining us on
the doll podcast.
To find out more about c anddesigner Rachel Gottfroy, go to
(52:47):
wwwdollpodcastcom.
Thank you again for joining uson this season of the Doll
Podcast.
It's been a bit busy for me asI moved home and moved cities
and I have to say that movingover well, let me say
conservatively over a hundreddolls I'm not admitting to
(53:10):
anything and thousands of bookswas quite a task.
So the Doll Podcast has hadquite an interesting season.
But the good news is the DollPodcast returns in 2024, in
October, with a whole new seasonon lots of episodes that we're
(53:31):
recording right now.
So, from everyone at the DollPodcast, thank you for joining
us and have a great rest of thesummer.
The Doll Podcast is a productof Niche Media Productions.
The Doll Podcast copyrightLouisa Maxwell 2024.
All rights reserved.
Welcome to the Doll Podcast.
I'm your host, Louisa Maxwell.
Cindy, the fashion doll thatwas launched in the swinging 60s
, celebrated her 60th birthdayin 2023.
It's a milestone birthday for adoll that's a firm favourite
with vintage and moderncollectors alike.
To discuss Cindy and herhistory, my guest is British toy
(00:32):
designer Rachel Godfroy, whohas worked in the toy industry
for 20 years as a designer,illustrator and brand developer,
and was part of the design teamfor Cindy's relaunch in 2020.
Rachel Godfroy, welcome to theDoll Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Thank you very much.
It's amazing to be here.
Thanks for inviting me.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Well, it's really lovely to talk to you again.
We spoke before, when you wereworking on the Cindy project in
2020, and that resulted in somefabulous dolls, and it's really
great to talk to you againbecause we're both Cindy girls,
aren't we?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
I had Cindy in my childhood and I really enjoyed
playing with her.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Oh, me too.
How do you feel?
Speaker 2 (01:25):
about Cindy reaching the milestone birthday of 60
years.
I mean 60 years of Cindy it is.
It's completely amazing.
And I think it's amazing for adoll brand to have gone on this
long, for 60 years, becausethere are a lot of other doll
brands and toy brands which justhaven't lost the distance.
And if you think back to olderbrands like Thomas the Tank
Engine, Rupert the Bear andPaddington, They've all had TV
(01:46):
series and movies and booksabout them and Cindy hasn't had
that.
You know she was always the girlnext door and I think that both
the pedigree and othercompanies that have had her
before Cindy was kind ofdesigned on her own strengths.
She was so different from otherdolls and so for me I'm not
surprised that she's lasted thislong, even though she's had a
(02:09):
lot of changes.
But I think definitely duringthe last 20 years or so, I think
Cindy really has been carriedon by the collectors out there
because they are so passionateabout Cindy and they organise
meet-ups and get get togethers.
And there's an amazing dollconvention in Lincoln which
(02:30):
happens every year, calledDollycon, and my friend Mel
Quint it's amazing she organisesit and the amount of people who
go and are on waiting lists togo, because it's such an amazing
day where a lot of Cindy peoplereally have the same
personality, amazing day where alot of Cindy people really have
the same personality, the sameinterest, so everybody gets on
really, really well.
It's lovely, and it's been solovely for me, being a doll
(02:57):
collector and a doll fan, to beable to design these dolls but
also being able to hear fromtheir points of view of what
they wanted for Cindy too.
So I think that from the lastwell, especially the last few
years, there's definitely been alot of collector input, because
a lot of them are my friendsand complete Cindy fans, just
like me.
So, yeah, it's great.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
You have the distinction of having been part
of the design team for the playline and you've also been part
of the design team for thecollector line.
That came out a couple of yearsago and they're beautiful dolls
.
I have the recreation of cindyin weekenders, which is a lovely
blue and white we'll havepictures on the website but
(03:35):
lovely red, white and blue top.
But this, the doll itself, isvibrant, really beautiful hair.
I mean it's one that personally, I would keep in my collection
forever.
It's just a beautiful doll, andisn't it?
fantastic that there's aconvention like DollyCon and
that everyone can get togetherand there's so many activities
(03:56):
online.
When you go on Instagram, forexample, some of the pictures
are extraordinary that people doand the reroutes and the
creativity around Cindy.
It's a fantastic, vibrantcommunity.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
It's amazing and I love it, when people get vintage
Cindy's that they found in acharity shop and they completely
save them and they show themonline and everybody's like this
is amazing, we love, you know,and it kind of cheers other
people on to do it.
There have been a lot of peoplewho have not really had the
confidence to paint cindy likepaint cindy's face or to re-root
(04:33):
her hair, and other people havejust kind of they're being
cheerleaders for people who aretrying to get into it.
So more and more people aredoing it and it's becoming such
a massive thing that when I lookon doll collector groups now,
you do obviously find a lot ofthe vintage Cindy's there anyway
, but a lot of them are theseamazing Cindy's that other
people have done and placed itwith these incredible dioramas
(04:54):
where they've got amazing shopsand tiny living rooms that
they've created for Cindy Justincredible.
You know I love it.
It's such a massive world ofCindy compared to you know what
we think of other doll brands.
You know I it.
It's such a massive world ofCindy compared to you know what
we think of other doll brands,you know I think it's incredible
you know, the amazing thing isliving here in Vienna.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
I always associate because I had Cindy when I was
growing up in Ireland, um, andyeah, yo, I was fantastic.
But here in Vienna Cindy wasalso a thing too.
So we do find Cindy in the dollcollector shops, but sometimes
in flea markets and other places.
Oh wow, it's great to know thatthe Cindy community is just as
(05:34):
into it here as everywhere else.
She's really a worldwidephenomenon and that's a
wonderful thing.
And I also saw Cindy's.
I was at Puppenfest in Germany.
It's the big doll festival inMay.
Wow, I mean, it's a whole towndevoted to dolls.
You look up and down thestreets and there are stands
(05:55):
selling dolls everywhere.
It's a bit.
My husband got in the car andran away.
And it was just amazing to seeCindy.
I love seeing her as aworldwide phenomenon, and of
course she was in the US as well.
So you know, we've all grown upwith Cindy.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Yeah, it's been amazing.
And I met somebody at Dollycona few years ago.
Her name was Elizabeth and shehad come all the way from the
Far East and she absolutelyloved Cindy.
And it's amazing to hear frompeople from all parts of Europe
and Australia and the USabsolutely love Cindy in all her
forms, whether it's one of thebrand new ones or whether it's
(06:31):
one of the vintage ones.
Everybody seems to have such alove of Cindy, whether it's
nostalgic or something new, thatthey've kind of started
collecting or whatever.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
It's something that's amazing, it's great, I love her
and I've been very lucky herebecause we've really good doll
hospitals so you can bring in.
Some of my limping cindies havenow been had their legs put
back and all kinds of things andyou know, they just look as
good as new.
And then I love a reroute yesso I'm there with the big needle
and my husband just looks at melike what are you doing?
(07:03):
Sticking that?
Oh, I, I'm like, do it Cindy'sReroot.
But there's such joy in it.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
I think there really is a thing of dolly therapy I
really do.
There's so many people I mean Ilove rerouting doll's heads
that it's something that you cando, which is very mindful.
You're working on somethingthat you absolutely love maybe
you had it as a child and whenyou remake, especially one of
your old favorite dolls, youknow and bring it to life in a
completely new way.
(07:28):
I think there's something sothrilling about that.
It's amazing.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
My favorite thing with Cindy is to find a
destroyed, poor side part Cindywho really needs a makeover and
to really give her thatbeautiful side part look again
and then had kind of a fliphairdo.
I mean, it's one of my favoriteCindy looks.
It's just wonderful therapy,like you said, and there's just
(07:53):
so much information.
If anyone is listening to this,I'll give lots of links to
sites that allow you to learnhow to do all these amazing
things for Cindy, because it isa very relaxing thing to do.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
It is.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Cindy was launched in 1963 by Pedigree Toys at a time
when British fashion and musicwere sweeping the world.
The Beatles topped the chartswith she Loves you, yeah, yeah,
yeah, and Mary Quant's miniskirtset off a youthquake in fashion
.
Cindy was a doll created forthe British market and she
(08:31):
reflected the culture andfashion of a very exciting time.
Rachel, do you think Cindy is atime capsule of British pop
culture?
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Absolutely.
I think it's amazing.
I visited the V&A Museum ofChildhood a while ago.
There was something on thereabout toys reflecting the social
culture from every decade andit really brought it home to me
that Cindy was absolutely theepitome of that, especially for
British culture, because I thinkwe have something which is very
(08:59):
different from other countries,especially when it comes to
fashion, and I think, especially, as you've mentioned earlier,
with the 1960s and TuffingtonFall and I think when it got on
to the 1970s, when you reallysaw some of the fashions really
explode, cindy was wearing allof them.
It was incredible.
She had so many outfits andthey really reflected the flares
(09:22):
and the long collared tops thatshe had and all of the dresses
that she had.
All the patterns and the colorswere all so trendy.
It was things that you couldsee.
If you'd walked into a store inthe 70s any high street store
in the UK you would have foundsomething that Cindy would have
worn, which was kind ofincredible.
And then for me my childhood ofCindy was the 1980s, the early
(09:44):
80s.
So for me I was watching Top ofthe Pops and Princess Diana was
going to get married to Charles, so of course, like that was
enormous.
And you know, pedigree broughtout a Cindy with short hair like
Princess Diana.
Her wedding dress looked verymuch like the Princess Diana
wedding dress that you saw,looked very much like the
Princess Diana wedding dressthat you saw.
(10:05):
And of course they had theEmanuels who designed Princess
Diana's wedding dress design awhole load of evening dresses
for her as well.
And again she had just massesand masses of clothes, which I
used to go into a shop calledChelsea Girl which was kind of a
high street, very trendy storeand you could buy things in
there that you would find onCindy Not exactly the same, but
(10:27):
you could tell that the wholething had been influenced by
what was happening that year infashion.
It was absolutely brilliant.
And of course, all thehairstyles as well.
It was very, very 80s.
It was great.
And then even with thefurniture as well, with the
1970s, the amazing kitchen thatyou could buy you could have
found that in any kind ofcatalogue and it was amazing
(10:49):
because it all worked.
And that's what I think Ithought was just fantastic that
you would be able to open thedoor and the light of the fridge
would come on.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Oh yeah, the stove had something in it as well, it
heated up if you put batteriesin the back it did something you
know.
It was really interestingbecause it captures.
You know, if you watch likestuff like now, my era is more
of the 70s.
But if you watch things likemary tyler moore, for instance,
or any of these famous sitcomsyou know from the 60s, 70s, 80s,
(11:18):
you see cindy's housereflecting that kind of
distilled look that they want toget at the time to capture
what's in like in anyLittlewoods catalog or whatever
Sears if you're in the US folks,or wherever we are around the
world.
But it's really interestingthat the dolls were reflecting
(11:41):
what was going on.
But it was so tiny details likelittle potatoes to go in the
pot that went on the stove.
And, of course, everyone'sfavorite yes, folks, cindy's
toilet, let's.
Yes, cindy was brave enough tosay I have a toilet.
Yes, that girl could keep itreal.
(12:02):
I mean, I don't know, I don'tremember barbie having a toilet
no, never she'd an airplane.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
She'd a camper, she had multiple vehicles, but I
don't remember having a toilet,I mean yeah, and I mean, how
much fun did every child havepretending that their cindy was
going to the toilet?
I thought it was brilliant,brilliant, and the bath went
with it.
So you know the shower and thebath.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
You'd have one in the bath, one in the toilet and you
know your younger sister woulddecide to put water in
everything.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Yep Not realizing.
You know there's a lot ofcardboard involved in this house
.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
So maybe water is not a good idea 's.
It's brilliant because itallows children to really act
out.
You know a little life for thedoll and then think about what
kind of little life they wouldlike.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
You know if they're their own little house and I
think as well.
I think that especially youngchildren, they have a lot of
rules they have to follow, youknow, obviously just to keep
them safe and everything else.
So I think that Cindyespecially, and other dolls, but
I think for me especially, youcould act out whatever you
wanted to with Cindy, with norules whatsoever.
You know she had a house, shehad a car, but to me she was a
(13:18):
young teenager which in an adultworld obviously you wouldn't
have.
But you could make her.
You know you could make her doanything that you wanted to.
A lot of the time I used tolike pretending that she was a
princess in an enchanted castle.
You know I'd make a cardboardcastle for her and pretend that
we were back in medieval times.
You know she wasn't always forme like the 1980s trendsetter,
(13:39):
but she was for everybody.
But I think that was it.
I think a lot of the furnitureand the doll's house, the tv
studio and the hospital that shehad there was a hospital.
There was a hospital.
Well, it was a hospital playset and it was amazing you'll
have to look it up because it'sincredible and it had two sides
to it.
So one was the operatingtheater and the other side was a
(14:00):
hospital ward where she had thebed, and it literally I'm not
kidding it came with like a tinyplastic syringe.
It came with a bag that youcould kind of hang up on one of
those lines so you could put aniv drip into her, had x-rays and
things that turned off andturned on, and a little um, a
little tray that went over thebed which had water and a bit of
food for her, and I justthought it was brilliant.
(14:23):
Oh gosh, that is brilliant.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
I wish I had that.
I have the tv studio that wasamazing.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
I loved that, you know, and what was great for I
think for me especially thatwhere they had the weather, like
the weather charts on the back,that was exactly like the BBC's
, you know, there'd be somebodystanding there, a guy called
Michael Fish who was like theweatherman at the time, and he
would be sticking these stickers.
But it was that kind of thing,I think.
For me, cindy, compared withBarbie and other dolls, cindy
(14:52):
felt more real, I think, becauseshe was, even though obviously
she didn't look realistic inthat way.
She had a well-cautioned bodybut obviously her head didn't
look realistic.
But for me she was more realthan any other doll that I had
because of the world that shelived in and because of the
clothes that she dressed in,because it was what I was seeing
all around me and then I couldrecreate straight in front of me
(15:13):
as a child, which was great.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
It's not a fashion model style.
It's, as you said, the kind ofthing you went into a shop as a
young teen and bought on aSaturday.
So if you were looking at yourolder sister and being a bit
aspirational, when you walk downthe high street, you were
seeing the same kind of clothesas Cindy wore and, of course,
Cindy's.
As you said, Cindy's firstwardrobe drew on the talents of
(15:39):
design team Tuffin and Foll andthey did fantastic graphic print
mini skirts and dresses andthese were the thing to wear
shopping in the boutiques of theKing's Road or Carnaby Street.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
And then, of course, mary.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Quant is another famous name associated with
Cindy, so the pedigree designteam and designer Valerie
Saunders transformed thesecouture designs into looks fit
for fashion doll Cindy.
Rachel, when you're designingfashions for Cindy, what's the
biggest challenge?
Speaker 2 (16:11):
I think the biggest challenge today is that there
are so many trends going on andfashion is so fast that
something that back in the 1980sand even the 1990s, you could
pretty much predict what wasgoing to happen next year and
you'd be able to do the doll'seye knowing that it would be
relevant for the year afterwards.
What we have now is that, withInstagram and social media and
(16:31):
teen fashion going so quicklyall the time, it's knowing then
which fashion trends you wouldlike to capture for Cindy and
which ones that you think Idon't think that's going to last
or not.
So there's an awful lot ofresearch that goes into that,
because sometimes it can be hitand miss.
And the other big designchallenge, I think, is that
Cindy and, for now, a lot offashion dolls is that the
(16:54):
children who are playing withCindy are much younger than they
were, like you know, 20, 30years ago.
So they're much younger.
So you need to make sure that,keeping with Cindy's girl next
door character, that all of thefashions are age appropriate and
fun and that the clothes can beput on and taken off and
exchanged really easily, becausethat's really frustrating when
(17:15):
you have a fashion doll and youcan't put the clothes on, and
then also obviously, making surethat all of the fashion is
still on trend.
And I think one of the waysthat I get around that is I
always see Cindy as a teenagerthrough a child's eyes, so you
never think you 'd never have tothink that you're an adult.
When you're designing anythingfor children, toy wise, you have
(17:37):
to think you know it's achild's rules, and so for me
it's a lot of.
I think when people werecertainly saying with these new
Cindy play line, they weresaying, well, there's a lot of
pastels, there's a lot of pinksand lilacs and that kind of
thing.
And we know that the reasonthat we used a lot of those
colors was because it soldreally well.
That's the colors that youngkids are dressing themselves in,
(17:58):
and it was the colors that theyliked.
They chose for theiraccessories as well and their
bedding and their bedrooms, likethey chose for their
accessories as well and theirbedding and their bedrooms.
And we did try other colors.
We did a lot of market research, but the young kids that were
looking at this really preferredall the pinks and the lilacs,
so we were going with them.
You know it wasn't kind ofsomething that we thought that
we would just dream up.
We went out with a lot of kids'opinions and I think also, I
(18:21):
suppose for me as well, thinkingof the budget obviously that
you get, which is very boringand technical.
I mean, if it was me, I wouldlove Cindy to be like this doll,
that you could have everyaccessory possible in with it.
You know, and I always wantedto design a doll which has a
whole lot of clothes that wentin it as well, and obviously you
can't do that when you'redesigning commercially.
(18:42):
So a lot of things andaccessories that I would put in
these dolls were eventuallytaken out because they just
would have been too expensive.
The design team, we all agreedthat we needed to keep it at a
price that would be affordablefor everybody, because the
collector's dolls obviously wereexpensive and for a play line.
We knew that there were otherdolls out there, like the LOLs
(19:03):
and the Rainbow Highs and Barbie, which were really really
expensive, and we wanted Cindyto be really high quality and to
have moving joints andeverything.
It wouldn't be a basic dollEvery doll would be the same and
have the same quality to it,but we wanted to make sure that
we were on budget as well.
So you have all these things tothink about budget and then
(19:24):
fashion trends, and then arekids going to like it?
Are they going to be into thisnext year?
And then you also have to lookat TV shows as well and what
they're into.
What movies are coming out nextyear too.
So I often find myself livingthe life of a six-year-old,
watching the movies on Disneyand that kind of thing.
And it's funny when I do meetyoung kids and they kind of look
(19:45):
at me like this grown adult andI'm chatting to them about
something.
And then I say, oh, have youseen this movie recently?
And they kind of look at me andthey're like, how do you know
about that?
Or what's your favorite CareBear or my Little Pony and
they're like, wow, how do youknow about that kind of stuff?
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Yeah, I know, they think everything started with
them and they're like wow, howdo you know about that kind?
Speaker 2 (20:05):
of stuff.
Yeah, I know they thinkeverything started with them.
Yes, absolutely yeah.
So it's really important, Ithink, especially for me to
remain relevant all the time.
So, but I am.
We're all looking at adultfashion as well as teen fashion
and child fashion and trying toget a good balance between all
of that and the budget too.
So it's not really just, Isuppose, one challenge.
There's a lot of differentchallenges that all come with it
(20:27):
.
But, of course, if you'redesigning for Cindy and it's
designing for, like, yourchildhood idol and best friend,
and we all really put our heartsand souls into it, so every,
every tiny decision that we putinto it was really really well
thought out.
You know, just because we lovethe doll so much, it it was
great.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Well, it's true, it's like even us together making
this podcast.
I mean, why are we making it?
Because we love Cindy.
She just spoke to us throughoutour childhood and, as we
mentioned before, thousands andthousands of people all over the
planet love Cindy.
She's just so popular.
The planet love Cindy.
(21:07):
She's just so popular.
When I think back about Cindymy favorite- still is Weekenders
because it was such a kind ofcutting edge thing Jeans were
coming in as a thing and Iremember getting a pair and that
was really new and she worejeans and you identified with
that and it meant you were.
It made you feel teenage, itmade you feel separate from
adults, even though there's alot of great fashions to wear
(21:29):
and mod fab stuff going on, evenas a kid, but what was really
lovely was that she was justthis little model that you held
in your hand and you felt likeshe really did shop in really
great boutiques where teenagegirls would actually shop.
What's your favorite Cindyoutfit?
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Oh my goodness.
Well, I think I'm an 80s Cindykid, so the early 80s was just
my biggest thing for me, andalthough I wasn't really into
fashion as a kid, I was reallyinto kind of more fantasy, I
suppose.
So one of my favorite, favoriteCindy's her look was space
fantasy.
I'd never seen a doll with pinkhair before and especially
(22:14):
Cindy and that she was wearingthis incredible like pink and
silver outfit which was totallyout of this world.
I'd never seen anything like itbefore.
Although I'd seen her in thecatalog, I didn't actually get
her until about 10 years agowhen I got her in the box
winning her on an auction.
It was one of those amazingkind of childhood experiences
suddenly flashing back to youand you think, wow, I've
(22:36):
actually managed to get thisafter all these years.
And you know, I think I wasjust as excited about getting
that doll as I was when I wouldhave been about nine.
It was incredible.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
I really understand this.
I bought for the first time.
I bought Cindy a present forher 60th birthday, oh, brilliant
.
But I bought her Paul becausewe never had a Paul in my
collection or my sister'scollection and I just feel, you
know, it'd be nice for Cindy tomeet him.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
But more about him later.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
It is an amazing sensation when you find that
childhood memory.
I remember because myWeekenders doll went a long time
ago and when I recreated thatmemory by buying one, it was an
amazing moment.
And then after that, I found aphotograph of myself holding my
(23:25):
original Cindy so it's like youget a little bit of that person
back and you think about theperson you are now.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
So getting the pink haired one.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
That's a great doll.
She looks like something offTop of the Pops from.
Legs and Co.
They used to have all thesedancers.
For those of you who didn'tgrow up with Top of the Pops,
they have all these fabulousdancers.
They're really marvelousdancers who used to come out and
do these great routines towhatever the top number one song
was, and Cindy was capturingthat.
(23:55):
Look that we saw every week.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Yeah yeah, they had another one called Starlight
Cindy and she was wearing thisreally sparkly, shiny, crazy
suit that you would have seenpop stars wearing on top of the
pops.
And she was another one and shehad crimped hair.
Of course crimped hair in the80s was really in, and she was
another one of my favorites aswell.
I thought she was incredible.
(24:17):
There were so many.
I suppose the one look, whichis very I suppose it's what
Cindy's really most popular forwas the ballerina.
She stayed with me, you know,always, and I even remember as a
little kid, you know, doing upher little laces at the back,
these little plastic laces, andmaking her pose in different
ways.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
The little laces on the shoes once they came undone.
It was a nightmare.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
It took hours, hours, just for the popper Kids.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
that's how we kept out of trouble way back then,
because we didn't have mobilephones.
So we were there trying to tieCindy's shoes on instead of
having an iPhone and being onTikTok.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Yeah, take you hours.
Just the same amount of time, Ithink.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Yeah, it was wonderful the ballerina was a
really beautiful Cindy and itcame in this rather long box
where she posed doing a splitand the costume was excellent
and the mobility of the doll'sbody, the joints, the hand joint
, the ankle joint it was reallybeautiful.
It was a beautiful doll.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
No one had ever seen that before either.
I think, especially for me whenBarbie was just starting to
come in to the UK.
Then, and I think that whatreally got me, my mum bought me
a Barbie when I was about nineor 10 and it was peaches and
cream and it was very, veryglamorous, but she had arms that
were just kind of stuck at thehalfway elbow position and
(25:44):
didn't move.
I found that Barbie's body andher hands were really made of
hard plastic and of course,cindy had these wonderful vinyl
limbs which was soft, and Ifound her very easy to dress.
And I found in Barbie's shoes Iwas always leaving them
somewhere because they were sotiny and with Cindy you had
these shoes which were easy toput on and stayed on.
(26:05):
You know, I also had shaping upCindy as well, which was one of
my favorites, and she obviouslywas right out of the 80s.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
she looked like she had just come out yeah, she was
going for the burn with JaneFonda.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Yes, and I remember getting the box.
I remember having it atChristmas and it had written on
the front over 115 poses and Iremember sitting there on
Christmas morning trying to workout which one would be the 115
poses.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
You know, what would be a great thing to do on TikTok
is get that doll and try and dothe 115 poses you know.
Put it in a reel or somethingit'd be amazing, try it out.
Someone's going to do that nowthey will send it to us send it
to us.
We want to see it, but that'sthe thing the chat know.
(26:56):
A toy should challenge you.
It shouldn't just be somethingthat's plonk there in front of
you.
You need to engage and sheengaged.
All through the decades withvarious trends like fitness.
There was a lot of royaltythemed dolls.
There was dolls that came outto celebrate various milestones
(27:16):
in the late queen elizabeth'sreign and various anniversaries
and things and they werebeautiful dolls and they were,
they were, they were channeling.
There was a kind of a.
You know, the maxi dress was abig thing in the 70s.
They kind of channeled thatedwardian vibe but it was really
cool and on trend and, as yousaid, the Emanuels, so many
(27:37):
wonderful designers who workedwith Cindy.
But we mentioned of course shehad this boyfriend, Paul, and
she had little sister Patch.
And you know, just like Cindy,Paul's wardrobe, his wardrobe
was really on trend too.
He shared his name withheartthrob Paul McCartney of the
Beatles, and that can't be loston pop fans, and he drew his
(28:00):
fashion inspiration from popstar style too.
So did you have Paul or Patch?
We had Patch.
My little sister had Patch, butI had Cindy, and Patch was so
cute with the school uniform andall those things.
As I said, I didn't get Paultill now.
Did you have Paul?
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Funnily enough, no.
So I have a little brother andhe had Action man, so I was
quite happy.
I don't think I ever asked forPaul, because obviously Cindy
had her Action man and theycould be articulated in the same
way that Cindy could.
So that was brilliant.
They were always going off todances and getting on adventures
together.
And I didn't have a patch doll.
I always wanted one but I neverhad one.
(28:41):
The closest I got was a dollcalled Amanda Jane, but she was
very much smaller than Cindy.
But yeah, I suppose back in theearly 80s patch wasn't sold
again.
You know that that was the endof it was at the 60s.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
When did?
When was she withdrawn in the70s?
Speaker 2 (28:57):
it must have been the 70s.
Yeah, it's a shame, but I meanwhen I started working for Cindy
back in the late 90s, whenVivid Imaginations had taken the
license for manufacturing Cindyfrom Hasbro, they brought back
Patch and Paul in a differentform.
So they brought back Patch, asCindy's little sister Didn't
look anything like the originalPatch.
(29:19):
I thought she was a bit of anot very good looking version,
but so they called her Pattyinstead of Patch.
So I wanted maybe I wassupposed to update the name and
then, of course, paul.
In exactly the same vein asthey named Paul, cindy's
boyfriend was called Robbie.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Wait a minute, that's a bit controversial.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Yes, it is, isn't it?
I don't know if I'd want mychild playing with Robbie
Williams.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
That's true.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
This was kind of in the old, like the very start of
the Take that era.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
I'm thinking of when he was first.
I mean, he's a great performer.
I'm a fan, don't get me wrong.
Well, you know, when you'redealing with children, you kind
of want a pop star.
That you know.
You know, paul mccartney seemedsuper.
The beatles looked, yeah, supersqueaky clean, but of course,
at the time, their hair, theirhaircuts and Paul had that same
haircut to adults who had grownup in the 50s the Beatles looked
(30:18):
very, very different.
So I suppose maybe that's thethe element you always need,
that you're thinking ahead onwhat kids are engaging with
today.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Yeah, as you said, I think yeah, especially because
around that time as well waswhen the Spice Girls were around
.
So the reason that Cindy's bestfriend was called Mel was after
Mel B.
So you know the scary Spice.
So you know she was really mucha millennial girl.
Back then, again, she tookinspiration from pop stars and
(30:50):
that kind of thing too, popstars and that kind of thing too
.
So a lot of the friends thatshe had, or the um, obviously
Robbie that she had as well theoutfits that they had, even
though obviously they weren't asbeautifully created as the ones
back in the 60s and 70s, theywere still very much kind of
millennial on trend at the timeyeah, it was what was happening,
yeah in the UK especially yeah,it is really interesting
(31:13):
because the UK is a veryfast-paced fashion market and it
just moves so quickly and Cindyhad to stay right on trend with
all of that and that's amazingthat she did.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
Yeah, cindy has had her share of different looks
over the decades.
In 1986, she opted for a newface sculpt and a more slender
figure, and in 1989 she had tomake over again with a more
adult face and figure.
Do you think she was trying tobe more like her rival barbie?
Speaker 2 (31:48):
yeah, I, I think, well, I think from.
I suppose my perspective isthat Hasbro took over the
license to manufacture Cindy andof course they're an American
company and I think they reallywanted to bring Cindy to the
mass market and introduce acompetitor to Barbie, and I
think that's why they thought,right, well, let's make her look
(32:11):
more American to appeal to thatmarket.
So of course, they made Cindylook far more like Barbie with
this, as you say, the slenderfigure and the smaller, more
realistic head.
But of course Mattel then fileda lawsuit against them, saying
that you really can't have adoll like Cindy who looks so
(32:31):
much like Barbie.
Now, so apparently I thinkHasbro sent over a whole load of
face sculpts to Mattel and theywere the ones who actually said
well, you may have these ones,you can choose from these ones.
These ones are the ones that wewill accept, we will not sue
you for, but the other ones thatyou have used we're not.
You know we don't need to usethem.
So so, yeah, so they kind ofcarried on that way.
But of course, cindy Reid didn'tmake any US markets.
(32:53):
She was still very big in theUK but, as you say, barbie was
massive, she was becomingenormous in the UK as well,
especially because of all theAmerican influences that we had,
all the TV shows that we had.
You know those movies, you knowit was amazing.
So Barbie suddenly became morerelatable to kids because they
were watching American TV showsand getting American popular
(33:15):
culture.
For me, I think that was one ofthe worst decisions that were
made for Cindy, because she hadsuch a unique look and I think
they could have carried her onin the same way that in Japan,
the Takara Nikuchan doll hasn'tchanged her face since 1986.
And she's been really popularsince.
And although I know, obviously,that our culture is different
(33:35):
there and the populationobviously favours a different
look for the doll, I still thinkthat we had such an individual
and classic look for Cindy thatI think we could have pulled off
for the last 60 years, you know, just by changing little bits
here and there.
So although I think thatCindy's gone through so many
different changes after lookingvery much more like her American
(34:00):
counterpart, I'm so pleasedthat now we managed to get her
back to how I thought she shouldhave originally have been.
She should have been like myfavorite doll, which was the
early 1980s one.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
When she came back and you were part of the design
team that brought her back in2020, she was right on trend
because she came back, as yousaid, with a face sculpt, which
was from her earlier era, andshe was back to being Cindy but
her jobs and the things she wasdoing.
She was exploring life as amedia influencer, also a pet
(34:34):
groomer, and she came with allthese cute tiny animals.
It was really, really sweet.
She was a stylist, she was adancer and ballerina, she was a
florist, came with loads ofgreat accessories and a baker
too, so she was getting ready toget on TV and win one of those
challenges.
What challenges did therelaunch of such an iconic brand
(34:57):
give you as a designer?
Because everybody grew up withCindy, so the moms who are there
buying for their children arelooking and going it's Cindy.
It was a big challenge.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
Yeah, yeah, I think for me, because I'd had about 30
years of thinking about it andI really had promised my
nine-year-old self.
I really promised myself that Iwas going to change Cindy one
day, because I didn't like herlook when she changed in 1986.
And so I think in my head formany, many years I thought it
really Cindy.
For me, the epitome of whatCindy should look like in my own
(35:29):
opinion was the Cindy from theearly 80s.
And when Pedigree contacted meto say that kit creations were
going to had got the contract tomake a cindy doll, uh, I met,
uh, linda osborne, who's the umceo of kit creations, and I had
just been making some.
Well, so, just getting vintagecindy dolls from the early 80s
(35:50):
and making them look like byrerouting and repainting, making
them look really, really ontrend for like 2019, and they'd
been looking at other bodysculpts and everything before
I'd even come on board and Lindasaid to me well, what do you
think in your opinion Cindyshould look like?
And I literally just pulled outof this, this bag that I had
with me, one of my 90s or 2019Cindy's and even made the box
(36:15):
for it and everything.
So it really did come off theshelf and she took one look and
she just said, oh my god, oh mygoodness me, I didn't realize
that this 1980s Cindy couldactually look so modern.
I think, whatever we're doing,we need to start focusing on
this doll sculpt.
And I was like brilliant, thisis great.
And I was explaining as well toher.
I said, look the the shape ofCindy's body is amazing as well
(36:38):
because, um, she's wellproportioned to which, obviously
in um, this day and age isreally, really important.
You know you, I didn't want todo a stick, thin, kind of
Hasbro-esque Cindy.
We wanted to make her withbetter proportions and also then
obviously then that carries onto designing clothes that will
fit her really well, that youcan dress and undress really
(36:58):
easily if you're a young child.
So I actually I gave KidCreations one of my childhood
doll heads.
The whole doll, I think, hadbeen so loved and played with.
There really wasn't very muchmore I could do with that.
I was going to re-root hermyself, so she didn't have any
hair, she was completely bald,and I gave the head to Kid
Creations and they sent it offto the factory for them to
(37:21):
prototype from that head.
So it was.
I think it was a 1983 Popsinger.
I think that was a 1983 popsinger.
Um, I think that was the, thedog that had the one with short
hair.
So she really was.
And I said, like we really gotto get her like the 1980s body.
So I was taking photos and wewere doing measurements of
everything just to make surethat her arms were the same
(37:41):
length as Cindy's.
And although Cindy had thevinyl rubber arms and we had, we
couldn't do that obviously,because it's like manufacturing
health and safety these days.
If you compare the arm widthand the arm shape to an active
vintage 80s Cindy doll, theyshould be pretty much the same
shape and the same length as an80s doll.
(38:03):
She's got the same hands aswell as the 80s doll too, as as
an 80s doll, she's got the samehands as well as the 80s doll
too.
So really, I mean, even likeright down to um, you know how I
make them and everything, I waslike this is a doll.
We've got to do so I think,from from that part, that was
definitely, uh, not a challengefor me because I was so
headstrong, I suppose, but Ithink, but in another way, after
(38:24):
we'd kind of got all of this.
Of course, there was so manydesign challenges that came on
after that because Pedigreeobviously you know I just wanted
to bring back Cindy as she wasand Pedigree said, no, we need
her now to be more than just afashion doll because of
everything else that is outthere.
You know, we've had everything.
You know dolls are fairlyoutrageous now and we need to
(38:45):
bring back Cindy in her lovely,wholesome form but still in a
way that would get her noticed.
So we kind of went back to thedrawing board and I was, uh,
thinking for ages and I thoughtI need to go back to what's the
basics of why I love Cindy andnostalgia about it.
And before, um, I got a Cindyhouse, I used to love making
(39:06):
stuff for Cindy and I was alwayslike I was even trying to make
dresses out of tissue paper.
It was crazy and I was alwaysgetting cardboard shoe boxes and
making beds and you know,really decorating all of that
kind of thing.
And I remember I thought tomyself it's funny because I
always had as much fun doingthat as I did.
Once I put Cindy in my littlemock-up that I had made and I
(39:29):
thought, well, we've got this,we're not going to do any
furniture for the launch.
We had a very small budget.
So why couldn't we makesomething like Cindy was
supposed to be?
Because Cindy was always onedoll and her world around her.
I always thought that was theway she really differentiated
herself from Barbie.
With Barbie, you have one dollthat was a ballerina, and if you
(39:49):
wanted a mermaid doll you'd goand buy another doll.
You had an outfit for her andcertain dolls came with certain
play sets.
But with Cindy, you had yourone doll or several that you
really bonded with and youbrought in different furniture
and accessories to add to herworld.
I thought this was reallyimportant and something which
was very different, and so westarted looking at the doll box
(40:13):
and how much play value we couldput into it, and that's when we
started coming up with.
So when we were doing, say, thebakery, why can't we put
something in there that you canmake?
We'd have to cut out yourself.
We were going to just put themin so you could just build.
It can make.
You'd have to cut out yourself.
We were going to just put themin so you could just build it.
We thought, no, let's reallyget into crafting here, because
arts and crafts are massive inthe toy industry.
Young kids love doing crafts.
(40:35):
You see it all on YouTube.
There's a lot of people outthere who are making things for
fashion dolls, for theirdioramas or for playing with
it's all over Instagram.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
Both adult collectors make things.
I have to confess that I walkedinto Ikea last week and I
wasn't the least bit interestedin whatever book case or serious
thing we came for.
I was like, look, there's tinyfurniture over there and I said
I don't know, I don't reallyneed it, but I really want it
and I thought it was a bitmid-century modern, so it'd be
(41:06):
really cool.
Of course, when will I havetime to do this?
I don't know, but I loved itand I just said this would make
a wonderful photograph and youknow, that is also part of what
kids are thinking when they setthings out and set out their
little world.
And those dolls with the floristor the pet groomer so the pet
(41:27):
groomer doll.
I thought this had great playvalue.
Yeah, because it's.
It's a wonderful piece for achild to get all these little
fun things to do.
All the dolls.
I really love what you did withthe doll's hair, because they
had a lot of hair play value, alot of length, a lot of
different colors, a lot ofdifferent textures, and you were
(41:49):
exploring how kids look now.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Yeah, that was so important, I think back in.
Well, back in the early 80s,for me we had Cindy that was
dark, brunette, auburn andblonde, and for me Cindy was
Cindy, regardless of her haircolor.
Every single Cindy was exactlythe same to me.
You know I was thinking this isCindy, but she's got, you know,
ginger hair and I think thatwas something that really stuck
(42:12):
with me and that was anotherthing that really put Cindy's
streets ahead from other fashiondolls at the time, a long time
ago, and it was one thing that Ireally wanted to bring into the
doll when we were designing her, because I was saying they were
saying, well, do we do Cindywith a whole lot of friends with
different ethnicities?
(42:33):
And I just said, well, no, Isaid you know, for a long time
Cindy's tagline in the early2000s was Cindy, she's just like
me.
And I said, well, if, yeah, ifwe're kind of promoting a doll
with blonde hair and blue eyesand saying this is what you've
got to look like, to be likecindy, I said that's kind of
it's ridiculous.
You know, every child is reallybeautiful, so we need to
celebrate that cindy can be allof these kids, you know, um,
(42:54):
whoever they are.
I want them to be able to gointo a shop and go oh my good,
mommy, look, this doll lookslike me, or look you know, it's
the most important thingcompletely, I think, especially
from hearing from collectors andmyself.
I didn't know that there was ablack Cindy until I got the
History of Cindy book andthere's a black ballerina on the
cover.
I just thought she's the mostbeautiful.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
Cindy ever.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
Yeah, I have two.
I'm so lucky I bought them along time ago, not the crazy
prices that they are now.
So I love Gail.
She's incredible.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
Even when Cindy was everywhere, they were hard to
find.
Yes, they were hard to find,and now things are getting much
better because children havefriends from all different
ethnicities.
So why shouldn't everyone seethemselves as Cindy?
It's meant to be a reflectionof you.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
And I think for me, I always said that for every
cindy doll that we were going tomake, we were going to make it
slightly different, though therewould never be one cindy doll
the same, because, also as acollector in my collector's hat
on you don't want the same dollin a different outfit.
You want a different doll, evenif it's in the same outfit.
The fact you have a doll whichhas got slightly different eye
color or different skin color,you want that for your
(44:06):
collection, because otherwiseit's not a whole collection, you
know, and it's something alittle bit different.
Speaker 1 (44:10):
They have a slightly different character.
It's the same doll, so sheplays a different character.
So maybe she puts on thesparkly dress or something I
thought was really wonderful,and that's the onesie because
there was a huge trend where theonesie was everywhere, and one
of the fashions that came withCindy recently is this really
(44:32):
cute little onesie and I boughtit for my collection and
actually kept it in the boxbecause I just thought great,
moment in time fashion, it's notsuch a big thing now.
Speaker 2 (44:43):
But yeah, just 10 years ago christmas morning we
were all wearing our santa clausonesies or reindeers or
whatever it was a big thing um,yeah, yeah, you know, and she
was reflecting that, and that'sa really important thing and I
think what was what wasbrilliant I think as well about
kid creations was that theyreally went into detail, like
(45:03):
the original sims.
How I remembered it.
So, with that unicorn onesie,she had little wings on the back
which you probably couldn't seefrom the package, and the hood
was actually embroidered on.
You know the little face.
So there were so many littletiny things that we could put in
within budget as well whichjust made Cindy that extra, a
little bit extra better thanthings that you'd see, and it's
(45:27):
extra better.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
Pardon me.
It's extra better play valuewhether you're an adult
collector or whether you're achild, you know it's play value,
play value for us thatphotograph the dolls and enjoy
them that way through socialmedia.
But more important than that,folks, is that the kid gets it
out of the box and says oh, Ilove this.
(45:49):
Look at this cute thing.
It reflects something about youknow, the marvelous thing about
childhood is that we're allowedto reinvent ourselves.
We can be Spider-Man one day.
We can be Fairy Princess thenext day.
The dolls should reflect thatkind of fun.
Yeah, absolutely yeah,completely.
(46:12):
Rachel, when we're talkingabout all these wonderful dolls
and wonderful memories, Ibelieve there's going to be a
new Cindy released for Cindy's60th anniversary.
Speaker 2 (46:20):
And I've seen that online.
She wears a sparkly dress andshe's got blonde hair and she's
a really beautiful doll yeah,well, kit creations, who I now
work for, are manufacturing thedoll, and pedigree made all the
design decisions.
So it is probably pedigree'sdoll and she's beautiful.
She's got the most amazingdetails.
(46:41):
The only thing that I think wecouldn't do were the rooted
eyelashes on the doll, becausethe company that we used for the
collector's dolls, sadly itclosed.
Maybe it was the pandemic, Idon't know, but the company
isn't around anymore, so thefactory that we would always use
for that kind of thing had shutdown.
But I don't think.
In a way although withcollector dolls they do they
(47:03):
love the eyelashes and for me,you know, if I could have
somehow got the eyelashes on, Iwould have loved that, and
there'll be an awful lot ofcollectors who will be putting
eyelashes on their dolls.
Speaker 1 (47:11):
I'm sure let's get the needles out now, ladies.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
Yes, yeah, I'm sure she's got gorgeous dark blonde
hair.
It's a lovely colour and herdress was going to originally be
pale pink but with littlesparkly bits on.
The pedigree really wanted thedress to be very diamond-esque
for, I suppose, her diamondanniversary.
(47:34):
So it took us a very long timeto find a fabric that was
manuable enough to make intothis dress design that we had,
especially with the puffballunderneath the puffball skirt,
and also looked really sparklyas well.
And we managed to find someamazing fabric, which the
factory were able to find aswell, and make the dress how
(47:55):
Pedigree wanted it to.
And then we went back to all ofthe different sources that we
had that had done the originalcollector's, cindy dolls for all
of the tiny shoes and thehandbags and the beautiful
accessories.
And so she's got the mostbeautiful little diamond drop
earrings that she wears and shehas a necklace, because she has
(48:16):
an off-the-shoulder dress, so wethought it'd be nice.
But she was going to have abracelet.
We thought, no, let's kind ofaccentuate the neckline.
We she's got a beautiful silvernecklace with a heart, what
looks like a diamond heartpendant on it, and then her
shoes I think are the mostfabulous things you'll ever see,
because they are gorgeous.
They're tiny, silver, sparkly,strappy sandals with a real
(48:40):
buckle.
They just look amazing.
They really do.
And she has this gorgeoussilver, sparkly handbag with a
little heart on it and I thoughtit was really important to kind
of put the the heart in to allof this because, yes, she's, she
has been loved for 60 years.
But also, I think Cindy hasalways been synonymous with
hearts in the heart shape toCindy logo yeah yeah, and the
(49:02):
tokens that she's had.
So I think that we wanted to putsomething else like that into
it.
And yes, and so we.
Now we just do themanufacturing.
It's all now up to Pedigree.
They're going to be doing themagazine and everything else.
They're the ones who are goingto be selling.
I think you can now pre-orderthem on the website.
So for me, it'll be great tosee them when they, when they
(49:23):
eventually come out because, um,it's all now.
It's all now pedigree's baby,isn't it wonderful?
Speaker 1 (49:29):
there's another cindy to look forward to and of
course, we'll put links to allthe information about that on
our doll podcast website, rachel.
It's amazing to think cindy is60 and I have to say that, and I
love Barbie, but I always willbe a Cindy girl because I can
remember my mom giving me myfirst Cindy and it was a really
(49:53):
lovely moment.
She was giving me something andshe was the first fashion doll
I had and I really felt thatthis was a really special thing
and it was a special moment.
It's an amazing thing to thinkthat she's been part of so many
people's lives.
So I know I'm still a Cindygirl.
Are you still a Cindy girl,rachel?
Speaker 2 (50:13):
I will always be a Cindy girl and I think a lot of
my friends definitely feel thesame way as well.
They are definitely Cindypeople and I think it's because
she resonated with us so much atthe time we were able to relate
to her so much.
To me she really was my bestfriend.
You know, if I was feelinglonely I would just take out my
(50:34):
Cindy dolls.
It was also when I had newfriends at school.
First thing I would be askingwas do you play with Cindy, you
know?
And so I had a lot of fun, notjust only playing with Cindy on
my own, but with my friends too,and I think that just kind of
throughout the the years, thatkind of most nostalgic, firm
bond that I had with Cindy stillremains.
(50:57):
And I think this is why Cindyis just such a beautiful and a
magical doll for so many people,because I think they feel
exactly the same way that I do.
There's a lot of warmth, a lotof nostalgia and a lot of love
for this British fashion doll.
But to me it wasn't so much ofa fashion doll.
She was so much more than that.
To me it was about Cindy'sworld and the world that you
(51:18):
were able to immerse yourselfinto, and I think I will always
be a collector.
I'm always still collectingvintage Cindy from all decades,
yeah, and I just hope that Cindycarries on for the next 60
years in whatever guise she'sgoing to be in.
You know she's such a, I think,an important fashion and toy
icon for the UK and I know thata lot of women who had Cindy
(51:43):
when she first came out, who arenow grandmothers themselves,
you know, are thankfully stillbuying Cindy because they're
still on the shelves at themoment and giving them to their
grandchildren.
So they're still carrying onthis memory.
I even know of collectors whohave got together just to buy
the new Cindy's and spend anafternoon doing the crafts from
the boxes all together and sentme photos of them doing it.
(52:03):
It's just lovely.
It's just such an amazing kindof energy that people have.
It's like Cindy energy.
It's incredible.
Yeah, once you are a Cindyperson, you are always a Cindy
person.
Speaker 1 (52:13):
Well, I couldn't agree more, and I hope that
Cindy has 60 years and many,many more.
Rachel Godfroy, thank you forjoining us on the Doll Podcast
to celebrate Cindy.
Speaker 2 (52:25):
Thank you so, so much .
It's been wonderful to be here.
Speaker 1 (52:27):
Thank you it's been such fun every time we get
together.
Thank you, rachel oh, thank you.
Thank you, brilliant, I've lovedit thank you for joining us on
the doll podcast.
To find out more about c anddesigner Rachel Gottfroy, go to
(52:47):
wwwdollpodcastcom.
Thank you again for joining uson this season of the Doll
Podcast.
It's been a bit busy for me asI moved home and moved cities
and I have to say that movingover well, let me say
conservatively over a hundreddolls I'm not admitting to
(53:10):
anything and thousands of bookswas quite a task.
So the Doll Podcast has hadquite an interesting season.
But the good news is the DollPodcast returns in 2024, in
October, with a whole new seasonon lots of episodes that we're
(53:31):
recording right now.
So, from everyone at the DollPodcast, thank you for joining
us and have a great rest of thesummer.
The Doll Podcast is a productof Niche Media Productions.
The Doll Podcast copyrightLouisa Maxwell 2024.
All rights reserved.
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