April 6, 2025 • 55 mins
The story of fashion and dolls has been linked throughout time as dolls have
long been associated with social aspiration and style. Host Louisa Maxwell is joined by Barbie expert Bradley Justice Yarbrough and Sara Woodbury curator of art at the Barry Art Museum to discuss the current shows exploring the relationship of dolls and fashion through the centuries.
Two stunning exhibitions at the BarryArt Museum run in tandem :“Carved Couture “ offer's an intimate look at the world of the 18th century fashion doll - while the second exhibition “ Out of the Box: A Barbie Doll Retrospective considers the evolution of this iconic fashion doll and the role of the innovative teams that created the fashion doll that has endured for over 66 years.
The Barry Art Museum brings this rich history alive through not just displaying historical dolls but creating immersive experiences, including life-sized recreations of Barbie's iconic Dream Houses that visitors can explore. Join us for a lively discussion on dolls and fashion and the enduring historic legacy of the fashion doll.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:14):
Welcome to the Doll Podcast.
I'm your host, louisa Maxwell.
The story of fashion and dollshas been linked throughout time,
as dolls have long beenassociated with social
aspiration and style.
The Barry Art Museum in Norfolk, virginia, usa, has two
(00:35):
exhibitions exploring therelationship of dolls and
fashion through the centuries.
To find out more, I am joinedby author and Barbie expert,
bradley Justice Yarborough andSarah Woodbury, curator of Art
at the Barry Art Museum.
Sarah and Bradley.
Welcome to the Doll Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Thanks for having me again, Louisa.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
As always, it's a pleasure to be here.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Well, it's delightful to see both of you again.
I always really enjoy ourpodcast together.
So I'm really looking forwardto hearing more about these two
shows, because we're looking attwo very we would think, two
very diverse dolls Woodenfashion dolls of the 17th and
18th century and Barbie and yetthey all have a lot in common.
(01:26):
So the first exhibition CarvedCouture will offer an intimate
look at the world of the 18thcentury fashion doll, while the
second exhibition is called Outof the Box, a Barbie doll
retrospective, and thisconsiders the evolution of this
iconic fashion doll and the roleof the innovative teams that
(01:47):
created her, and she's a dollthat has endured for over 65
years.
Sarah and Bradley, when willthese two shows start and how
long will they run for?
Speaker 3 (01:59):
That's a great question, louisa, and Carve
Couture is actually on view now.
It opened in late January andit will run through July 31st of
this year.
And then Barbie, the Barbiedoll retrospective opens on
March 7th and it will also beopen through July 31st of 2025.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Bradley, when is Barbie's birthday?
It's in March, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
It's March 9th, and so the exhibit will open in time
for a fabulous birthdaycelebration for our favorite
fashion doll.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
So she's now 66 years old?
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Yes, yes, that is probably longer than any fashion
doll has ever lasted.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
It's an amazing track record and today we're going to
examine just why she hasendured for such a long time.
So let's start with CarveCouture, which is on view now.
This exhibition offers anintimate look at the world of
the 18th century fashion dolland, if we go back as early as
the 16th century, wooden fashiondolls called Pandoras traveled
(03:05):
between the courts of Europesharing the latest fashions,
accessories and even hairstyles.
The dolls also taught littlegirls about the role they would
play in society.
Sarah, tell us about thesewooden dolls that showcased
fashion trends for royalty andthe fashion elite.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Sure thing, louisa.
So the fashion elite Sure thing, louisa.
So you have to think back a fewcenturies and how arduous
shipping could be.
Imagine trying to pack up afull-size mannequin and an
outfit and sending it around,because modern printing
techniques that we're familiarwith lithography, etching,
beyond anything with copperplates that technology won't
(03:43):
come into being until the later18th and 19th centuries.
So what you're dealing withinstead are tangible
three-dimensional objects.
Now, it's not that full-sizemannequins and costumes didn't
travel they did but it was oftenmore efficient to send these
smaller sizes little maquettesbasically and those would travel
around the continent andshowcase the latest fashions.
(04:03):
They're essentially 3Dprecursors to fashion magazines.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
So how did these fashion dolls for, I imagine,
very affluent people, because weoften see them in beautiful
portraits of young girls andthey're holding a doll how did
they transfer into being fashiondolls?
Or did people take the Pandorasand give them to children?
Speaker 3 (04:26):
Well, again, that's another great question, and
there are a couple of things weneed to keep in mind whenever
we're looking at the materialrecord for dolls, particularly
in portraiture.
When you're looking atportraiture, you're generally
looking at the upper classes whocan afford to pay somebody to
paint their likeness.
The idea of portraiture for themasses is really.
(04:48):
That's something that comesabout more in the 19th century
via people.
That's part of what makesBarbie stand out from her
earlier peers is that she'sreally targeted more toward
(05:10):
middle-class consumers.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Yes, in many ways Barbie is a little bit more
democratic because she was amass-produced doll available to
everyone and still is.
What role did the carved woodendolls play in instructing young
girls?
Speaker 3 (05:23):
So they're fulfilling a couple of different roles.
On the one hand, they are amodel for learning how to make
clothing.
It makes me think of a knittingproject that I did a couple of
years ago.
So I took up knitting duringthe pandemic because we all had
to do something during the hourswe were at home, and for me it
was knitting.
And when I got down to makingmy first sweater, the pattern
(05:46):
guide said you should considerknitting a baby sweater first.
That's a smaller scale, meansit's less material, it's not as
much of a disaster if you screwup, and so forth.
I immediately proceeded toignore those instructions and
made a full-size sweater.
But the basic concept was therein terms of you're working on a
(06:06):
smaller scale, it's lessmaterial, it gives you a chance
to see in miniature how thesedesigns are going to work, and
then from there it's a processof enlargement.
So the doll, on the one hand, isa model for learning to make
clothes.
But the doll is also in a lotof ways modeling different types
of social roles and behaviors.
The type of gown it's wearing,for example, can tell you what
(06:28):
kind of social occasion that'sappropriate for.
Susan Dossiter has done a lotof research on wooden dolls, and
one thing that's particularlyfascinating about extant dolls
and their wardrobes is theystart to reflect the interests
and tastes of their respectiveowners.
I know of at least one examplethat she mentioned, for instance
, where it has a writing habiton, and we know that that family
(06:50):
was really into writing.
So it's also a chance to seehow you fit within your own
family as well as your moregeneral social class.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
It's really interesting, then, because each
of these dolls as opposed to,maybe, barbie, who will have a
lot of manufactured clothing,but when you make clothes for a
doll, when you make clothes forBarbie, you are making a
personal expression and often,as collectors, we are looking
for the original costume, thepristine mint-in-the-box costume
(07:21):
.
I mean, you must be familiarwith this, bradley.
When you're collecting forBarbie, you're looking for the
best costume ever.
But do you think we shouldvalue more sometimes when we
make a handmade thing for a doll, because perhaps that reveals
more about how the doll has beenpart of our social history.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Well, I personally feel that collectors often
dismiss the handmade things, butto me, as you just said, there
is such a personal sort ofinjection into creating that
with the textile, the pattern,the fit, that sometimes to me
it's just as exciting and justas important to find that in a
collection.
It's not documented but itreflects the moment in history
(08:05):
that it was created, Much likethese antique wooden dolls.
It was existing fabrics, it wasexisting trims and techniques,
so it tells a story.
There is a bit of that momentworked into that tiny garment
for Barbie or any doll that wascreated.
That really reflects ourhistory.
Any garment for Barbie or anydoll that was created that
really reflects our history.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
And, if I may jump in , it also traces the object, the
doll's movement through time.
With a lot of the wooden dollsthat we have on view, they're
loans from colonial Williamsburg, and the doll itself may date
from the early 18th century, forexample, but its gown will
reflect a much later style, from, say, the 1770s or 1780s, and
(08:46):
it reminds us that these are notstatic objects.
Tastes change, you get newfabrics or whatnot, or you're
reusing fabrics, repurposingthem to reflect current styles.
So again, it's just that's oneof the things I like about this
exhibition is it shows how thedolls not only reflect the
moment of when they were made,but how they move through time.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
I think that's the whole reason behind collecting
antique dolls at all.
Is this amazing time capsule.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
What I see in the costumes that we have is again
this idea of upcycling and therepurposing of fabrics into new
fashions, because you might havea doll again dating from the
early 18th century butreflecting a much later fashion,
and I think there are a coupleof interesting ideas going on
behind that.
One is again the idea ofrepurposing fashions, but it
(09:37):
also emphasizes to us how muchresearch there is still left to
do on these dolls.
You know we so often rely onthe written record and when it
comes to women's historyespecially, a lot of the
conversations that we'rementioning here were not written
down.
So you do move into this realmof speculative history a little
bit.
And there are definitely dollswithin the show where I don't
(10:00):
know why it's dressed that way,I don't know why it has a
certain gown and a certain hatto go with it, and it just again
reminds us that the historicalrecord, no matter how deeply we
dig into it, will always beincomplete on some level.
But we still need to.
It's our duty to go into thatmore deeply and to get into
those stories as much as we can,because if we don't, who will?
Speaker 1 (10:22):
As I was reading through the exhibition catalog,
and there's an interestingmoment in the exhibition that
intrigued me, and I'm referringto the wooden doll in the bicorn
hat, and that's a style of hatthat we long associate with
Napoleon Bonaparte's militaryuniform, so it's a very dashing
look for an 18th century miss.
(10:43):
How do you think she ended upwith this bold fashion statement
?
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Well, I'm glad you brought that doll up, because
that is a perfect example of theI don't know instance of the
show.
So I was reading about bicornsand the more I was going into it
I was like this is militaryfashion, this doesn't come into.
First of all, it doesn't comeinto style until the 1790s, but
based on her gown it's looking1760s.
(11:08):
So there's a disparity there.
And then, as you pointed out,it's almost exclusively
associated with the military,and particularly Napoleon.
So I don't have an exact answerfor why we have the bicorn, and
this is one of the reasons whydoll history is so intriguing,
because there are these littlemysteries that tease us.
So, whether or not it was madeintentionally for that doll, or
(11:30):
perhaps it appeared at a latertime, it's one theory that I've
been playing around with ismaybe as the bicorn fell out of
fashion and people forgot thehistorical associations with it,
they paired it with the doll,not knowing it was a piece of
military clothing initially.
But again, that's allhypothetical.
So that is to be continued, butthat's honestly true of all
(11:52):
history.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
So do you think someday we'll puzzle over why
Barbie is wearing one of Ken'shats and just not know why?
Or Action man?
You know, these things arethings just that happen.
Bradley, what do you think?
Do you think we'll ever puzzleover Barbie?
Or is she so well documented wecan't sort of adult grownups
(12:26):
looking at.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
This is the fact of child's play.
And the little girl may havediscovered this hat in some way,
shape or form and thought youknow what my doll needs?
A lovely little chapeau, andthis fits the bill, and she just
added it to her doll's wardrobe.
So those little things happenand 66 years later with Barbie
and 166 years later with adifferent doll, we're still
asking some of those questions.
But they're always going to bethose little mysteries and I'm
sure one day someone's going tounpack a Barbie and have lots of
(12:49):
questions as to why she'ssqueezed into a skipper dress or
other little strange things.
But those are just little to me, little Easter eggs, little fun
things to discover that leaveus scratching our head and
asking questions.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
And sometimes with mass-produced dolls, we find
these things of a fabric.
I've seen this with Cindy,where there's a fabric it's not
in the catalog in that blouse,but I have found the same fabric
being incorporated into anotheroutfit.
People use up the ends offabrics in workrooms and
factories and you know it's amass-produced thing and that's
(13:27):
how kind of a fashion historymystery starts.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Absolutely.
And I will tell you that youknow a lot of these 17th and
18th century dolls used upexisting fabrics or leftover
fabrics from dresses.
And the one thing I will tellyou with Barbie, with Cindy,
those factories wasted nothing.
One thing I will tell you withBarbie with Cindy, those
factories wasted nothing.
And there's a little joke thata friend of mine and I have with
working with some factories inChina and in Japan.
(13:52):
We always joke and say there'sno such thing as black fabric
and they never manufacture blackfabric.
Because what happens if theymake?
They use orange fabric for adress and nobody buys it and
they have lots of orange fabricleft over.
Well, they just dunk it in theblack dye and voila, black
fabric.
And I found this perfect exampleof that happening with a Ken
(14:14):
outfit, and it was a 1970s Kenoutfit.
That was a tuxedo and the pantswere black.
However, if you held them up tothe light, this outfit was from
1978.
If you held them up to thelight, you could see the
Pepsi-Cola logo on it,indicating that they had reused
this 1973-74 Best Buy fabricthat was red, with the
(14:35):
Pepsi-Cola label on it.
And I thought, oh my God, thatis so funny, because they wasted
nothing.
They utilized every singlething.
It was, you know, they utilizedevery single thing.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
It really is amazing that there are so many little
mysteries out there that we haveto unravel and then they tell a
story of people makingdecisions that it's not some big
mass produced thing all thetime in a boardroom, that it's
somebody in a workroom sayingmake use of this, let's get it
out there.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
Oh, exactly, there's definitely this element of
choice that I think is part ofBarbie's appeal, more generally,
of fashion dolls where, even ifit is a doll that's mass
produced, you know the makershave choices that they execute
in terms of the types of fabricbeing used, but also the
impromptu choices that you knowchildren use when playing with
(15:24):
the dolls, Like well, I don'tknow, I like this color better
on the doll, so I don't care ifit actually went with Skipper
it's going on Barbie, and ofcourse that's also how we end up
with Weird Barbie, one of themost iconic Barbie dolls.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
We've all got one where we face the disappointment
that no, barbie's hair isn'tgoing to grow back.
And of course, there's thosetimes when you experiment with
her makeup and decide she looksnice with a lot of blue pen
eyeshadow.
Well, they're very rare dolls,those.
And you know we have to agreethat dolls are such an important
source of costume history forus today and that perhaps these
(16:05):
beautiful antique dolls andtheir beautiful costumes, maybe
they are amalgamations ofdifferent looks.
But one of the dolls thatreally intrigued me when I was
reading and looking at theexhibition was an 18th century
English doll.
It's 17 inches tall and itscostume has a pair of what were
called then leading strings,which are two long strips of
(16:27):
cloth attached to a child's gownto help them learn to walk.
And then I believe that oldergirls later wore a shorter
variation of this style as areminder of her status as an
unmarried woman, sarah, whatdoes this reveal about the
status of girls in the 17thcentury?
That they have this fashionstatement going throughout their
(16:49):
lives?
Speaker 3 (16:50):
Well, again, this is a great example of the social
history of dolls and how theytell us not only the types of
social values that they'reconveying to their respective
owners within their ownrespective time, they're telling
girls about their respectiveplace within society.
And the leading strings are agreat example From a practical
function.
(17:10):
You see them in 17th centurypaintings of toddlers and
they're basically a walking tool.
You put them on and then itkeeps children from falling over
or toddling off.
It's not unlike the harnessesthat you sometimes see today.
But then there's this socialdimension that gets attached to
them too, and it's thismetaphorical idea of you being,
(17:32):
as a woman, attached to yourfamily prior to marriage, but
then, when you are married, thestrings are cut as you
presumably joined your husband'sfamily.
So there's very much thisobjectification, patriarchal
lens attached to this Again,another great insight that I got
from Susan Dossiter during myresearch.
But again it emphasizes howit's not just dolls in pretty
(17:55):
dresses.
Those dresses carry meaning.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
They carry great social meaning and explain a lot
about that society to us today.
Exactly meaning, and explain alot about that society to us
today.
Bradley, what do you think ofthe dress with the little
leading strings?
Do you think Barbie also hadthese kind of?
No, she didn't really, did she?
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Well, she didn't really have anything such as
that, but the doll with theleading strings.
You kind of pretend to teachthat little doll to walk and you
know there was walking Barbie.
That was kind of a you helpedher walk.
It was a different concept.
However, just with speaking ofsociety and norms, it's no
mistake that when children weregetting Barbie and playing with
(18:35):
Barbie, that there was a levelof expectation of our society at
that moment, which is why wesaw a wedding gown.
There was a wedding gown forBarbie.
It was very much expected thatyou would grow up and get
married and that was going to bethe most amazing moment in your
life, but that was veryaspirational at that moment.
But I also loved that therewere other choices for Barbie.
(18:56):
There were career choices forBarbie.
So, although the wardrobe didreflect some of that, the one
thing that Barbie gave us wasmore of a choice and more of the
child making that decision whenthey're role-playing and
playing out that moment with thedolls.
So I do see there beingsocietal expectations because,
(19:17):
let's also face it, in the 1959wardrobe the little lingerie set
comes with a girdle and we allknow that Barbie really never
needed a girdle.
However, a girdle was a veryimportant moment in fashion at
that moment that you had to wearto make the dresses of the day
look the most amazing.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
And this was part of playing at being adult and a
variation on a style.
Bradley, as you mentioned,barbie had a girdle and
historically fashion dolls worecorsets, crinolines and bustles
all garments that restrictedmovement.
Do you think when childrenthrough history were told to put
these garments on dolls, werethey also being told to grow up
(20:00):
and perhaps reject the things weassociated with childhood, or
did they just want to play atbeing grown up?
I'm going to.
Or did they just want to playat being grown up?
Speaker 2 (20:07):
I'm going to go with.
They probably wanted to play atbeing grown up.
But the one thing with fashionas the silhouettes changed, as
the hems changed, as fit changed, there was always some form of
an undergarment that aided withportraying that silhouette, be
it the bustle with giving theemphasis to the back, the corset
(20:27):
or the stays, you know, holdingyou in and giving you good
posture.
And this is what the kids wereseeing that their mothers and
sisters were wearing and doing.
And so there is an aspect ofonce you start doing those
things, you are a grown up andmaybe you start rejecting some
of that freedom and movement torun and play.
But also it's the fitting intothe society, the fitting into
(20:50):
fashion, becoming the woman orthe person that you're expected
to become.
In all of these eras there isthat sort of moment of
conformity.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
The title of your Barbie exhibition is called Out
of the Box a Barbie dollretrospective, and one of the
things I believe very firmly isthat when the doll comes out of
the box, that's when the magicreally happens, because she
comes to life as children or ascollectors, we play with it,
dress it and give it a whole newpersonality.
(21:22):
Our own particular twist on thestory of the doll Barbie has
millions of fashions that allowher to transform from
cheerleader to pop star todoctor, encouraging children to
create their own story for thedoll.
Bradley, do you think hercareer aspirations allowed
Barbie doll to transcend justbeing a fashion figure?
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Absolutely.
I think even in the beginning,when Ruth Handler conceived the
idea of Barbie, I think shewanted the child to see that
they had choices and you chosethe way you would play with the
doll, the role of the doll, whatthe doll would be.
And I think as they added insort of these career elements
and even like the cheerleader Imean you can aspire to be a
(22:05):
cheerleader but I think theybecame more and more
aspirational.
By adding in the stewardesscostume or the flight attendant
uniform to the doctor, the nurse, it gave the indication to
little girls, little boys,whoever was playing with Barbie,
that you could aspire to besomething that maybe seemed out
(22:25):
of the realm of possibility, butyou could always aspire to that
and make it become a reality.
It is really sort of a momentof reflecting the evolution of
the society at that moment towhere, when Barbie started, the
traditional professions thatwere available to women were
teacher or secretary orstewardess or nurse.
(22:47):
And by the 70s you're seeingdoctor, you're seeing surgeon,
you're seeing many otheropportunities, you know, from
businesswoman to superchar, topaleontologist.
I mean there were so manythings that we never would have
imagined a woman or Barbie doingand suddenly we had those
choices.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Sarah, do you think the voices of parents, who
sometimes some mothers, and I'mafraid my own mother was one of
these people?
I was allowed to play withCindy, but when it came to
Barbie she was judged as toomature.
So I saved up my allowance andbought Barbie myself.
(23:29):
Thank you, malibu.
Barbie, she was a veryreasonable price and I, small
child that I was, could affordher.
But sometimes I wonder,sometimes you know, growing up
with Barbie, did this kind ofdisapproval of parents did it
make us want Barbie more?
But did it also say to Mattelwell, you have to help her
(23:52):
depart away from just being afashion figure, just being a
girl at the beach or a girl in apretty dress.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
That's a really interesting question.
And well, first of all, theidea of Barbie being too mature.
She's not the first fashiondoll to come under controversy.
For that I'm thinking of MadameAlexander Sissy.
When she debuted in 1955 as afull-figured debutante, she also
faced some criticism from otherdoll makers in terms of why are
(24:22):
you debuting this busty dollfor children?
But, as madame alexanderexplained, like she's an
aspirational figure.
This is what the could be forchildren in terms of what you
could be in a few years.
You could be this sophisticatedyoung person going out and
enjoying the opera or taking inan elegant luncheon somewhere.
(24:43):
So, on the one hand, barbiereflects those ongoing
controversies, but it's evenmore concentrated because she's
so widely available.
But Barbie is also she's alwaysbeen in some ways a reflection
of the aspirations of the timeand, as Bradley pointed out, as
she has moved through these pastsix decades, her career has
(25:03):
diversified and I think thatreflects a variety of influences
.
I mean, certainly probably partof it is a response to parents
in terms of oh well, you know,we don't want her to be overly
sexualized, so let's providesome other options.
But it's also reflecting theinterest of youth culture at the
time.
I mean think of what'shappening with women's lib in
the 70s and then with theyuppies of the 80s and their
(25:26):
power moves and the mansions ofthe 90s.
Barbie is very much areflection of the aspirations of
society at large, so she'sresponding to not just
criticisms from parents but alsothe interests of children.
One of the things that alwaysintrigued me about when I was
researching for this show wasreading about the studies done
that Mattel conducted on Barbiewhen they were getting ready to
(25:48):
market the doll.
And they were conductingstudies with parents and
children to see how they reactedto the dolls.
And they found that whileparents were all saying oh, no,
no, no, she's too sexualized,what are you doing with this
full figure doll or whatnot,children were fascinated because
(26:09):
they could play out thesegrown-up scenarios that
intrigued them.
You've got the mysterious worldof adulthood that is in the
future, but you're not there yet.
But you're intrigued and Barbieis your guide.
She's your Virgil, essentiallytaking you through this passage
as you imagine what thesescenarios could be like.
One of the ways that I've cometo think about Barbie is that,
whereas some of these olderfashion dolls we've been looking
(26:30):
at from the 18th and 19thcenturies are the what will be.
Barbie is very much a whatcould be and presenting a
variety of futures to theiryoung owners.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
I think this is a very interesting way of looking
at Barbie what could be.
And actually, if I go back tomy little self with Malibu
Barbie, that's what I wasplaying out, what I could be.
So it is about what you couldbe.
It's not just about whatparents think you should be.
So maybe this is something thatthese dolls offer every
(27:01):
generation and every century.
When you go and play with themon your own, you make your own
little personal world.
What do you think, bradley?
Speaker 2 (27:10):
I totally agree with that because I know as a kid
playing with Barbie and you know, gi Joe with my brothers and
action figures and stuff, it wascreating that little world out
of your head, being inspired bytelevision and movies that we
saw.
But you know it wasrole-playing, it was imagination
.
It was, as I've said repeatedly, aspirational, like playing out
(27:31):
those adult situations that Iwas trying to understand and
work my way through.
So I definitely see it as whatSarah said, what could be.
So maybe Mattel should workwith that idea, sarah, I think
they should pay for that.
That's a great way of lookingat it.
So it's very, very, very muchthe aspirational sort of tool to
(27:55):
play with.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
It certainly is, and when we look at these dolls, one
of the most interesting thingsabout them is their posability.
I mean, they're small enough tobe in our hand, so they're
quite an intimate thing.
But one of the things I loveabout Barbie and you see this
also even with the larger woodendolls the wooden dolls had
mortise and tendon joints toallow them to pose.
(28:18):
Barbie really intrigued kidsbecause she had the bendable
legs.
Later she had bendable arms.
She had little wrist joints.
She even had little tiny anklejoints and of course these are
innovations that we see also in19th century French fashion
dolls.
Dolls and bébés could actuallybe posed as ballerinas, which is
(28:43):
quite an extraordinary level ofmovement when you think it was
in a composition or a woodenbody, and it had to have all
these little ball joints.
Barbie had a team of makeupartists, engineers and designers
to give her a more lifelikelook and even to talk.
Bradley, tell us about thedesigners and innovators who
(29:03):
worked with Mattel to makeBarbie such a dynamic fashion
doll.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
Well, Mattel was very determined that they would have
the best innovators, creatorsand sort of geniuses creating
for them.
They actually were part of thegreat brain drain of Europe,
like in the 1950s and 60s, wherethey brought over so many
talented and brilliant people towork on making toys.
(29:29):
One of the people that theyacquired in the mid-1950s was
Jack Ryan, and Jack Ryan hadbeen a Yale-educated gentleman
who had worked for Raytheondeveloping the Sparrow and Hawk
low-altitude missiles in the1950s, but he ends up at Mattel
and he was an absolute sort ofgenius that he designed and
(29:52):
created so many toys in his nameappears on so many of the
patents, including the patentfor the Barbie.
But he also developed the twistand turn waist, the bendable
leg, the articulated livingBarbie body, and he had
developed the talking mechanismfor the Chatty Cathy doll and
was finally able to shrink thatdown to fit into a Barbie torso.
(30:15):
So then we had Talking Barbie.
So many of the innovations thatmade the doll more lifelike and
more poseable he had a verylarge hand in.
And then the other fun thingslike Color Magic Barbie with the
hair that could change color,and the quick curl Barbie hair
that had little tiny metalfilaments in that would allow it
(30:35):
to be curled with no heat orwater.
He had a hand in that as well.
So he held so many patents forMattel and he worked with a team
of creative minded people thatthey were just churning out so
many ideas that it really reallyevolved the doll over time more
(31:06):
gimmicky, where I always tendto think of Barbie as a fashion
doll.
So Mattel also employed amazingwomen's wear designers that had
worked in the fashion industryand for Hollywood to create some
of these classic looks forBarbie.
Charlotte Johnson was the firstdesigner hired for Barbie and
she sort of paved the way andcreated the method and style
that they would use to designfor Barbie.
(31:28):
You know, Barbie is not like uswhere we can move our hand to
fit through the sleeve of ajacket.
Her hand is very fixed and shehas separate fingers.
So the sleeves had to bedesigned in such a way that
those hands would slide throughand the fit always had to be
perfect.
And Charlotte Johnson herselffaced the criticisms of Barbie's
(31:48):
unrealistic figure.
But, as she reminded you, add alayer of clothing to this and
it becomes very much normal thatthe layers of clothing that
went onto the doll it had to beslightly too small, Otherwise
she would look too bulky.
It had to be slightly too small, Otherwise she would look too
bulky.
So there were so many creativepeople over those first years
(32:12):
that really kind of created theroadmap that I think all the
Mattel people today sort offollow.
It's really kind of a pathwayof geniuses.
The men innovated those Barbiebodies.
It's very similar to the 19thcentury with all of the French
fashion bodies.
There are so many patents inthe 19th century for the French
fashion dolls, for articulationand movement to create that
(32:32):
realism.
And it's reflected in theout-of-the-box exhibit as well.
One of the focal points thatSarah had pointed out when I was
there is the Radicke Cordonierdoll.
That's sort of the centerpieceof the antique portion of the
exhibit and it's kind of ironicthat that doll is there.
(32:52):
From the perspective of, it'sthe same thing that the original
Barbie doll had.
This doll has openings in thebottom of her feet that allow
her to stand on a posing standthat has these two prongs that
stick up, which is exactly thesame concept that the number one
Barbie did.
So I always like to remindeverybody that, as innovative as
(33:12):
Barbie is, there was so muchinnovation and inspiration that
took place more than 100 yearsago.
That kind of paved the way forthe way we look at the dolls.
Kind of paved the way for theway we look at the dolls.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Sarah.
As Bradley mentioned, the 19thcentury fashion dolls and Barbie
share many characteristics andinnovations.
What other fashion dolls willthe exhibitions discuss and what
will we see on view when wevisit?
Speaker 3 (33:46):
So we've got quite a few of our historical dolls out
on view.
The exhibition is reallydivided in two parts.
So we have the Barbie andFriends, as I've been calling it
, on one side of the show, butthen the other half of the
exhibition is focusing onpre-Barbie.
So we go back as far as theearly 19th century and then we
move up in through the 1950swith Madame Alexander's Sissy,
and the whole point of thatexhibition is it's twofold.
(34:09):
On the one hand, we wanted tobring out some great examples
from our collection to have onview to go with the Barbie show.
But we also wanted to iteratethe idea that Barbie did not
emerge from a vacuum.
Barbie did not emerge out ofnowhere as this fully formed
fashion doll with an extensivewardrobe and whatnot and these
patents that enabled her to move.
(34:29):
You find these precedents withother companies such as Maison
Hiret or Steiner or Jumeau.
In terms of making the dollmore lifelike, We've been
focusing on movement, but Jumeauwas also interested in talking
dolls and briefly explored thatoption after Thomas Edison
developed a doll a few yearsprior.
(34:49):
So this idea of, on the one hand, creating dolls that foster
imagination, but also creatingdolls that cultivate the
imagination of the people makingthem.
That's an idea that you see atplay across the decades.
But what makes Barbie stand outis the scale and the depth of
that innovation.
I mean, Barbie is just on ascale that's unlike any of these
(35:11):
other dolls that we see interms of the size of the
production and the global reach.
I mean, yes, 19th centuryfashion dolls did travel the
world, but how many peoplearound the world can recognize a
Jumeau as opposed to a Barbie?
So her main influence is herubiquity, I would say.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
Barbie is a pop culture icon and that's quite an
extraordinary statement to beable to make about what is a
fashion doll.
Barbie is one of the mostrecognized dolls across the
world and, of course, her teamof designers never tire of
innovating, and one of the mostinnovative things that Barbie
(35:50):
has is her style and wardrobe.
Bradley, who are some of thegreat Mattel designers, who
around three or four Barbiedesigners and that team
continued to grow.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
It grew in many ways from originally just being what
they considered a soft goodsdesigner, where they did
anything that was in fabric foranything, to just being what
they would recur to as aprincipal designer for the
Barbie doll would recur to as aprincipal designer for the
Barbie doll.
(36:26):
In 1977, they added Kitty BlackParkins, and she was from South
Carolina and was one of thefirst African-American designers
hired by Mattel.
She brought a whole new styleand approach to designing for
Barbie.
Kitty was amazing in that shedid what we call
transformational Barbie dolls.
The one example I'll give youis like Golden Dream Barbie,
(36:50):
which has this metallic swimsuitand metallic gold pants and
like a sheer sort of like littlecapelet that could also be a
hat.
The doll, the single doll,could go from being on the beach
and laying out in the sun to aglittery night at the disco.
Kitty told me when Iinterviewed her one time that
she felt that if a child onlyreceived that one doll, it was
going to have everything kind ofbuilt into that doll that the
(37:11):
child would get hours of playvalue out of it.
Katie had like a 25-year careerat Mattel, but one of the
things that she was very focusedon being an African-American
woman was to create a doll thatreflected her.
So many times throughout historywe've just said that the
analogy we've used is manyAfrican-American dolls, or Black
(37:33):
dolls, were just white dollsdipped in brown paint.
They did not reflect the wayother cultures and other people
looked.
But Mattel started approachingit in 1980 with creating dolls
that were very reflective of theworld we lived in and that not
everybody was, you know, blondeand blue-eyed.
And so Kitty designed in 1980the first black Barbie.
(37:56):
It was not the first black dollin the Barbie line we had had
Christy and Francine Cara, butthis was the first doll that was
black, that was called Barbie.
She had this fabulous littleafro and this like glittery red
outfit and all of this jewelryand these like strappy disco
sandals and the skirt snappedoff.
So it was like this little likeswimsuit, playsuit kind of
(38:17):
thing.
It was just really, reallyfabulous, one of my favorite
dolls.
It was just a moment in history.
Kitty continued to do reallyfabulous dolls and really kind
of bringing it to Metallus, towanting to instill diversity in
this line and creating a wholeworld of amazing black and brown
dolls and so much play valuealways worked into every single
(38:41):
one of her designs.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
It's amazing that they were thinking that way of
adding the different parts ofthe costume, because that's just
the thing you love as a child,and yet they were also making
doll history with this beautifuldoll.
So, sarah, following in thefootsteps, perhaps, of the
Pandoras that were dressed bycouturiers, barbie has inspired
(39:04):
fashion designers to design forher.
Tell me, have you got any ofthese fantastic designer Barbies
in the exhibition?
Speaker 3 (39:11):
We sure do, thanks to Bradley.
So a couple of examples off thetop of my head is we have a
fabulous dark turquoise gowndesigned by Oscar de la Renta
from the 1980s, and we've alsogot a fabulous Bob Mackie
ensemble.
I mean, I think what appeals tothese designers about Barbie is
the fact that, on the one hand,she is so readily recognizable
(39:35):
and that, too, she can beanything.
So it's this invitation, thischallenge to make your mark with
this doll and to stand out fromall these other incarnations.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
I think also Bob Mackie has really been such a
iconic Hollywood designer forCher, for Carol Burnett, for so
many stars of the stage andscreen, and he also chooses to
design for Barbie.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Bob Mackie did a pair of dolls one year.
That was the Goddess of the Sunand the Goddess of the Moon,
and she's this sort of likegolden, orangey, radiant doll in
a beaded costume with thiselaborate headdress.
That is a true Bob Mackie style.
That was just, you know,evocative of Cher or some sort
of stage costume.
Bob Mackie really made someamazing costumes for Barbie and
(40:25):
continues to work with Matteldoing some things for Barbie.
So it's to me it's really coolthat one of Hollywood's greatest
designers is actually designingfor the Barbie doll.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
I know one of the things I love about these
designer Barbies is that itallows you to own a little bit
of haute couture magic withoutpaying the incredible price for
the full-size version.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
Well, we all would like to have like a designer
costume hanging in the closet.
You can once again livevicariously through Barbie.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
I think that's what's great about Barbie and fashion
dolls.
The historic fashion dollsallow us to look at the past and
allow us to hold the past inour hands, and Barbie does the
same thing.
Whether it's vintage Barbiefrom 1959, mod Barbie, she's
charting 66 years of fashion.
One of the things in thisexhibition that I think is going
(41:17):
to be really somethingdifferent is the fact that
you've been inspired by Barbiethe movie and you have built
some of Barbie's dream houses,because in Barbie the movie, of
course, her whole community ispopulated by various dream
houses that reflect the variousguises of Barbie, bradley and
(41:38):
Sarah.
How did you get the idea ofrecreating the Dreamhouse?
Speaker 3 (41:42):
You're right, louisa.
That is going to be such a funpart of the show and it actually
ties into the Berry ArtMuseum's commitment to working
with different universitydepartments.
So the Dreamhouses in thisinstance are a collaboration
between the museum and ourtheater program, whom we've
actually worked with beforeElwood Woody Robinson and Jim
(42:03):
Lydon back in 2021, designedsome theater sets for a show
that we did on Karen Lamont backin 2021, which was aptly titled
Théâtre de la Mode and wasexploring those fashion dolls
from post-World War II France,and we had theater sets designed
for these full-size maquettes.
So when we came up with theBarbie show idea and we were
(42:26):
thinking about ways to activateit for visitors, it felt like a
natural fit to go back to thetheater department and work on
some of these life-size dreamhouses, especially after the
Barbie movie came out and thatwhole opening sequence where you
see the neighborhood and all ofthese different dream houses
and the accessories that go withthem, and you know that people
who collected those dream housesknow exactly what types of
(42:48):
toast is being referenced in theopening scene and so forth.
So we wanted to inject a senseof that fun into the show.
So what you will find in theexhibition are two human-scaled
recreations of different dreamhouses.
In the center of the galleryyou have a recreation of the
1979 Barbie dream house, theA-frame, the very 70s earth tone
(43:12):
one.
This is actually the gatewaybetween the two parts of the
show.
So when you enter theexhibition, you start out in the
pre-Barbie section and what yousee is a silhouette of the 79
Dreamhouse that will be coveredin a custom wallpaper depicting
paper dolls.
Because we wanted to tie in theinfluence of paper dolls on the
(43:33):
development of Barbie.
Because that's what initiallysparked Ruth Handler's idea was
she saw her daughter Barbaraplaying with paper dolls and was
imagining how a 3D version ofthat could enhance her
make-believe.
But then when you walk throughthe gateway of this silhouette,
you cross into Barbie land andon the other side you have a
three-dimensional rendering ofthe dream house and then
(43:53):
everything is Technicolor.
So that's the first dream house,and then the second one is in
the corner over by the exit ofthe show and that is based on
the 2021 dream house, and ourtheater folks picked that one
for a couple of reasons.
One they thought it would be funto reconstruct it because it
had a couple of different levelsand it just provided more
visual interest than a singlelevel dream house, for example.
(44:16):
But they also picked thatdesign because it was a
wonderful synthesis of vintagearchitectural taste with modern
sensibilities.
So, on the one hand, you'rechanneling this 1960s,
california, mid-centurymodernism style, but the 2021
dream house was builtspecifically to cater to 21st
(44:37):
century interests.
It's modular in design, it'sthinking of influencer culture
and that you can convert yourpool into a shop for selfies or
filming videos or whatnot.
It also features a wheelchairaccessible lift that can take
visitors up to the second floor,so keeping in mind
accessibility.
So we thought that those twodream houses would be great
(44:59):
because, on the one hand, the 79is such an iconic silhouette
and then the 2021 dream housereally reflects how Barbie, the
brand today, is a combination ofvintage tastes and 21st century
interests.
Speaker 1 (45:14):
But that sounds so exciting and like such a
wonderful installation, and whatI love about this is it's
bringing innovation to a Barbieexhibition.
Bradley, what is your favoritedream house in the exhibition?
Speaker 2 (45:28):
Oh my gosh.
Well, I love the 1979 dreamhouse because, as nine-year-old,
bradley would have loved tohave gotten that under the
Christmas tree and did not.
So seeing it in such an amazingscale is pretty incredible, and
just walking through thosedoors into the exhibit it really
sort of transports you toBarbie land.
It's really kind of amazing.
Now the 2021 house that's inthe corner of the exhibit to me
(45:53):
is amazing because as you'restanding there, you can look out
the window onto the beach,because you know we have to have
a location for Ken to bebecause you know his job is
beach and so we have a completeview of the beach and it's
really incredible.
And also in that corner they aredoing an exhibit of costumes
(46:14):
that were created in-house atMattel in the early 1980s, that
live models actually wore atevents and special events, like
at department stores and stuff.
So they actually have likelife-size versions of Barbie,
best Buys and Dream Date Barbiethat are historical, which I
kind of got very excited when Isaw.
(46:35):
So I love the whole idea ofBarbie fashion inspiring real
fashion.
And when we were speaking ofthe fashion designers, this is
what popped in my head because Ilove to see sort of the
historical thing of like howwomen's fashion inspired Barbie
in the beginning, and then inthe 80s, we have Barbie fashions
being created for grownups, andthen I think it was 2015 that
(46:57):
Jeremy Scott did a wholecollection of fashions inspired
by Barbie.
So Barbie's just everywhere andI love it.
Being in this exhibit, seeingit in my scale, really kind of
transforms me and it's just,it's pretty incredible.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
This sounds so original, so epic, and it brings
together so many elements ofthe things that make Barbie
interesting and keep herrelevant and perhaps this is the
secret of her 66 years ofinnovation that she just never
stops surprising us withwonderful elements.
(47:36):
She never stops inspiring us uswith wonderful elements.
She never stops inspiring us.
Speaker 3 (47:40):
I think that is so true, Louisa, and it really
plays out in the contents of theshow itself, because those
life-size costumes that Bradleywas describing, those came from
a local lender and a lot of thedolls that you will find in the
exhibition are from lendersbased in the Hampton Roads area.
(48:00):
That was a deliberate call onour part.
We have found that with everydoll exhibition we have done,
there has always been a robustlocal response and we find out
about these fabulous collectionsafter the show opens.
So when we did Madame Alexandera couple years ago, several
locals came forward with thesewonderful dolls.
And when we did Martha Chase,we had a similar response and we
(48:23):
were just thinking all right,if we got that response to these
dolls that are upwards of 80,90 years old at this point, how
are they going to respond toBarbie?
Let's see what happens.
So we did a community call andquite a few of the dolls that
you will see in the show arefrom this very area and it just
goes to emphasize how importantBarbie is around the world and
(48:45):
to different local communities.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
Oh, she is, and she brings communities together and
she brings people together todiscuss her, to discuss her
fashion influences, to discusshow designers interpret for her.
And then, of course, Barbie.
The movie brought out so manydifferent discourses about being
Ken, what Ken meant to Barbieand maybe why Barbie never
married Ken, which is alwaysvery interesting for a girl who
(49:11):
had Bradley.
How many wedding gowns do youthink Barbie had?
Speaker 2 (49:14):
Oh my gosh.
Well, there's always been oneevery single year, and in some
cases there were multiples eachyear, so over 100 at least.
So it's pretty incredible thatthat is one of the most popular
fashions for the Barbie doll.
Speaker 1 (49:30):
And it's a doll that all of us love to have because
it's a magical moment.
Like at the end of a fashionshow they always show a bride,
because it's about rebirth,transformation, you know, a new
life, new things happening, andBarbie just keeps transforming
and keeps inspiring, and I thinkthis show is going to inspire
(49:51):
collectors and non-collectorsand people who just enjoy pop
culture, phenomenons andinteriors, and there's just so
many elements on, of course,fashion.
But what I love also is they'regoing to be able to see this
relationship between history,fashion history and dolls and
discover dolls throughout thecenturies and what influencers
(50:13):
fashion dolls the originalinfluencers.
Can you give us some details,sarah, of the Carve Couture, the
first exhibition we talkedabout?
Remind us of how long it'll beon for.
Speaker 3 (50:26):
Yes, certainly so.
Carve Couture will be openthrough July 31st of 2025, and
it's located on the second floorof the museum.
It's in the doll gallery insidethe smaller feature gallery.
And Bradley what are the datesof Out of the museum?
It's in the doll gallery insidethe smaller feature gallery.
Speaker 1 (50:41):
And Bradley.
What are the dates of Out ofthe Box, a Barbie doll
retrospective?
Speaker 2 (50:46):
It will run through July 31st through the summer.
Speaker 1 (50:49):
Wonderful, and is there going to be any online
content?
Because perhaps for those of usin Europe or around the world,
maybe we can't get to theexhibition, because I just can't
wait to see the dream houses.
Speaker 3 (51:02):
Oh, certainly so.
There is a webpage up for itnow, and typically for our
exhibitions we'll do a 3D tourso that you can visit it
virtually.
And then I know we're planningsome special programming
alongside the show, and thoseare often broadcast virtually as
well.
Speaker 1 (51:19):
That's going to be wonderful.
Bradley, have you anything youwant to add to that?
Speaker 2 (51:23):
With the museum's permission, I probably will do
like a little video tour ofmyself or something like that
that I might share with myfriend Louisa.
Speaker 1 (51:32):
Oh, thank you.
I would love that.
I really would love that,because it's going to be an
incredible exhibition.
So I hope you share a lot withus online, because the Barry Art
Museum has so much and hasgiven so much to doll collectors
since it opened, and I believeyou're going to have a refit.
There's some news from theBarry, isn't there, sarah?
Speaker 3 (51:54):
There certainly is, and I'm glad you brought that up
, because it has to do with theclosing dates of the shows.
So if you are able to come tothe Berry Art Museum this summer
, please do, because these arethe last two exhibitions before
we temporarily close for a majorexpansion.
We've been open a little oversix years, but in that time we
(52:14):
have doubled the size of ourcollections.
So this summer we're going toembark on an expansion that will
double the size of ourgalleries and our collection
storage spaces and ouradministrative spaces.
We're going to be addingseveral new galleries onto the
museum, including a brand new,larger permanent gallery for the
dolls and a new temporary dollgallery for the rotating shows.
(52:38):
So instead of being nestedinside one larger gallery, it
will get a space of its own.
And additionally, we're goingto be adding a new education
suite.
We're going to convert theadministrative offices we have
now and turn it into studiospace, and then we're going to
add a brand new third floorwhere we will move our
collection storage as well asour offices.
(52:59):
So in 2027, we're scheduled toreopen and it's going to be a
new museum that will be able todo what we're doing now even
better.
Speaker 1 (53:08):
That sounds so amazing, bradley.
Isn't it wonderful for us, aslongtime doll collectors, to
think that a museum as importantas the Barry Art Museum has
been so successful with its dollexhibitions that now it's
actually going to expand andthis is an enduring legacy of
(53:28):
Carolyn and Dick Barry that isgoing to continue and be
sustained?
What do you think, bradley?
Isn't it wonderful?
Speaker 2 (53:36):
I find it just sublime to finally finally see
the doll presented as art, thedoll presented as such a
cultural thing and it presentedin such an amazing and I I'll
just say, serious, importantkind of way that it's not just
relegated to a nostalgia sort ofthing, that it's presented in
(53:57):
such a, you know, serious mannerthat it requires study, it
requires you to pay attentionand to acknowledge just how
important the doll as a tool, asa plaything, is important to
our culture.
Speaker 1 (54:13):
It is important and it's such a step forward.
Sarah and Bradley, thank you somuch for joining me on the Doll
Podcast, for sharing the storyof fashion dolls throughout the
century and for telling us allabout the exhibitions and also
for sharing this news.
I want to congratulate you onwhat you've done for dolls, for
(54:35):
doll collecting, for the doll asart.
Thank you so much for joiningme on the Doll Podcast and for
sharing these great moments indoll collecting with me.
Speaker 3 (54:46):
Thank you so much for having us.
It is always a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (54:49):
Thank you so much, Louisa.
Speaker 1 (54:51):
Thank you.
Thank you for joining us on theDoll Podcast.
Thank you for joining us on theDoll Podcast.
To find out more about thisepisode, just go to our website,
wwwdollpodcastcom, where you'llfind lots of photos and links
(55:12):
and more information.
You can also find the DollPodcast on Facebook and
Instagram.
Be sure to subscribe to ourpodcast to keep up to date with
all the latest news.
The Doll Podcast is created byNiche Podcast Productions.
Our music is by CelticConspiracy.
(55:36):
Copyright Louisa Maxwell 2025.
All rights reserved.
Welcome to the Doll Podcast.
I'm your host, louisa Maxwell.
The story of fashion and dollshas been linked throughout time,
as dolls have long beenassociated with social
aspiration and style.
The Barry Art Museum in Norfolk, virginia, usa, has two
(00:35):
exhibitions exploring therelationship of dolls and
fashion through the centuries.
To find out more, I am joinedby author and Barbie expert,
bradley Justice Yarborough andSarah Woodbury, curator of Art
at the Barry Art Museum.
Sarah and Bradley.
Welcome to the Doll Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Thanks for having me again, Louisa.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
As always, it's a pleasure to be here.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Well, it's delightful to see both of you again.
I always really enjoy ourpodcast together.
So I'm really looking forwardto hearing more about these two
shows, because we're looking attwo very we would think, two
very diverse dolls Woodenfashion dolls of the 17th and
18th century and Barbie and yetthey all have a lot in common.
(01:26):
So the first exhibition CarvedCouture will offer an intimate
look at the world of the 18thcentury fashion doll, while the
second exhibition is called Outof the Box, a Barbie doll
retrospective, and thisconsiders the evolution of this
iconic fashion doll and the roleof the innovative teams that
(01:47):
created her, and she's a dollthat has endured for over 65
years.
Sarah and Bradley, when willthese two shows start and how
long will they run for?
Speaker 3 (01:59):
That's a great question, louisa, and Carve
Couture is actually on view now.
It opened in late January andit will run through July 31st of
this year.
And then Barbie, the Barbiedoll retrospective opens on
March 7th and it will also beopen through July 31st of 2025.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Bradley, when is Barbie's birthday?
It's in March, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
It's March 9th, and so the exhibit will open in time
for a fabulous birthdaycelebration for our favorite
fashion doll.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
So she's now 66 years old?
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Yes, yes, that is probably longer than any fashion
doll has ever lasted.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
It's an amazing track record and today we're going to
examine just why she hasendured for such a long time.
So let's start with CarveCouture, which is on view now.
This exhibition offers anintimate look at the world of
the 18th century fashion dolland, if we go back as early as
the 16th century, wooden fashiondolls called Pandoras traveled
(03:05):
between the courts of Europesharing the latest fashions,
accessories and even hairstyles.
The dolls also taught littlegirls about the role they would
play in society.
Sarah, tell us about thesewooden dolls that showcased
fashion trends for royalty andthe fashion elite.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Sure thing, louisa.
So the fashion elite Sure thing, louisa.
So you have to think back a fewcenturies and how arduous
shipping could be.
Imagine trying to pack up afull-size mannequin and an
outfit and sending it around,because modern printing
techniques that we're familiarwith lithography, etching,
beyond anything with copperplates that technology won't
(03:43):
come into being until the later18th and 19th centuries.
So what you're dealing withinstead are tangible
three-dimensional objects.
Now, it's not that full-sizemannequins and costumes didn't
travel they did but it was oftenmore efficient to send these
smaller sizes little maquettesbasically and those would travel
around the continent andshowcase the latest fashions.
(04:03):
They're essentially 3Dprecursors to fashion magazines.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
So how did these fashion dolls for, I imagine,
very affluent people, because weoften see them in beautiful
portraits of young girls andthey're holding a doll how did
they transfer into being fashiondolls?
Or did people take the Pandorasand give them to children?
Speaker 3 (04:26):
Well, again, that's another great question, and
there are a couple of things weneed to keep in mind whenever
we're looking at the materialrecord for dolls, particularly
in portraiture.
When you're looking atportraiture, you're generally
looking at the upper classes whocan afford to pay somebody to
paint their likeness.
The idea of portraiture for themasses is really.
(04:48):
That's something that comesabout more in the 19th century
via people.
That's part of what makesBarbie stand out from her
earlier peers is that she'sreally targeted more toward
(05:10):
middle-class consumers.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Yes, in many ways Barbie is a little bit more
democratic because she was amass-produced doll available to
everyone and still is.
What role did the carved woodendolls play in instructing young
girls?
Speaker 3 (05:23):
So they're fulfilling a couple of different roles.
On the one hand, they are amodel for learning how to make
clothing.
It makes me think of a knittingproject that I did a couple of
years ago.
So I took up knitting duringthe pandemic because we all had
to do something during the hourswe were at home, and for me it
was knitting.
And when I got down to makingmy first sweater, the pattern
(05:46):
guide said you should considerknitting a baby sweater first.
That's a smaller scale, meansit's less material, it's not as
much of a disaster if you screwup, and so forth.
I immediately proceeded toignore those instructions and
made a full-size sweater.
But the basic concept was therein terms of you're working on a
(06:06):
smaller scale, it's lessmaterial, it gives you a chance
to see in miniature how thesedesigns are going to work, and
then from there it's a processof enlargement.
So the doll, on the one hand, isa model for learning to make
clothes.
But the doll is also in a lotof ways modeling different types
of social roles and behaviors.
The type of gown it's wearing,for example, can tell you what
(06:28):
kind of social occasion that'sappropriate for.
Susan Dossiter has done a lotof research on wooden dolls, and
one thing that's particularlyfascinating about extant dolls
and their wardrobes is theystart to reflect the interests
and tastes of their respectiveowners.
I know of at least one examplethat she mentioned, for instance
, where it has a writing habiton, and we know that that family
(06:50):
was really into writing.
So it's also a chance to seehow you fit within your own
family as well as your moregeneral social class.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
It's really interesting, then, because each
of these dolls as opposed to,maybe, barbie, who will have a
lot of manufactured clothing,but when you make clothes for a
doll, when you make clothes forBarbie, you are making a
personal expression and often,as collectors, we are looking
for the original costume, thepristine mint-in-the-box costume
(07:21):
.
I mean, you must be familiarwith this, bradley.
When you're collecting forBarbie, you're looking for the
best costume ever.
But do you think we shouldvalue more sometimes when we
make a handmade thing for a doll, because perhaps that reveals
more about how the doll has beenpart of our social history.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Well, I personally feel that collectors often
dismiss the handmade things, butto me, as you just said, there
is such a personal sort ofinjection into creating that
with the textile, the pattern,the fit, that sometimes to me
it's just as exciting and justas important to find that in a
collection.
It's not documented but itreflects the moment in history
(08:05):
that it was created, Much likethese antique wooden dolls.
It was existing fabrics, it wasexisting trims and techniques,
so it tells a story.
There is a bit of that momentworked into that tiny garment
for Barbie or any doll that wascreated.
That really reflects ourhistory.
Any garment for Barbie or anydoll that was created that
really reflects our history.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
And, if I may jump in , it also traces the object, the
doll's movement through time.
With a lot of the wooden dollsthat we have on view, they're
loans from colonial Williamsburg, and the doll itself may date
from the early 18th century, forexample, but its gown will
reflect a much later style, from, say, the 1770s or 1780s, and
(08:46):
it reminds us that these are notstatic objects.
Tastes change, you get newfabrics or whatnot, or you're
reusing fabrics, repurposingthem to reflect current styles.
So again, it's just that's oneof the things I like about this
exhibition is it shows how thedolls not only reflect the
moment of when they were made,but how they move through time.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
I think that's the whole reason behind collecting
antique dolls at all.
Is this amazing time capsule.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
What I see in the costumes that we have is again
this idea of upcycling and therepurposing of fabrics into new
fashions, because you might havea doll again dating from the
early 18th century butreflecting a much later fashion,
and I think there are a coupleof interesting ideas going on
behind that.
One is again the idea ofrepurposing fashions, but it
(09:37):
also emphasizes to us how muchresearch there is still left to
do on these dolls.
You know we so often rely onthe written record and when it
comes to women's historyespecially, a lot of the
conversations that we'rementioning here were not written
down.
So you do move into this realmof speculative history a little
bit.
And there are definitely dollswithin the show where I don't
(10:00):
know why it's dressed that way,I don't know why it has a
certain gown and a certain hatto go with it, and it just again
reminds us that the historicalrecord, no matter how deeply we
dig into it, will always beincomplete on some level.
But we still need to.
It's our duty to go into thatmore deeply and to get into
those stories as much as we can,because if we don't, who will?
Speaker 1 (10:22):
As I was reading through the exhibition catalog,
and there's an interestingmoment in the exhibition that
intrigued me, and I'm referringto the wooden doll in the bicorn
hat, and that's a style of hatthat we long associate with
Napoleon Bonaparte's militaryuniform, so it's a very dashing
look for an 18th century miss.
(10:43):
How do you think she ended upwith this bold fashion statement
?
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Well, I'm glad you brought that doll up, because
that is a perfect example of theI don't know instance of the
show.
So I was reading about bicornsand the more I was going into it
I was like this is militaryfashion, this doesn't come into.
First of all, it doesn't comeinto style until the 1790s, but
based on her gown it's looking1760s.
(11:08):
So there's a disparity there.
And then, as you pointed out,it's almost exclusively
associated with the military,and particularly Napoleon.
So I don't have an exact answerfor why we have the bicorn, and
this is one of the reasons whydoll history is so intriguing,
because there are these littlemysteries that tease us.
So, whether or not it was madeintentionally for that doll, or
(11:30):
perhaps it appeared at a latertime, it's one theory that I've
been playing around with ismaybe as the bicorn fell out of
fashion and people forgot thehistorical associations with it,
they paired it with the doll,not knowing it was a piece of
military clothing initially.
But again, that's allhypothetical.
So that is to be continued, butthat's honestly true of all
(11:52):
history.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
So do you think someday we'll puzzle over why
Barbie is wearing one of Ken'shats and just not know why?
Or Action man?
You know, these things arethings just that happen.
Bradley, what do you think?
Do you think we'll ever puzzleover Barbie?
Or is she so well documented wecan't sort of adult grownups
(12:26):
looking at.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
This is the fact of child's play.
And the little girl may havediscovered this hat in some way,
shape or form and thought youknow what my doll needs?
A lovely little chapeau, andthis fits the bill, and she just
added it to her doll's wardrobe.
So those little things happenand 66 years later with Barbie
and 166 years later with adifferent doll, we're still
asking some of those questions.
But they're always going to bethose little mysteries and I'm
sure one day someone's going tounpack a Barbie and have lots of
(12:49):
questions as to why she'ssqueezed into a skipper dress or
other little strange things.
But those are just little to me, little Easter eggs, little fun
things to discover that leaveus scratching our head and
asking questions.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
And sometimes with mass-produced dolls, we find
these things of a fabric.
I've seen this with Cindy,where there's a fabric it's not
in the catalog in that blouse,but I have found the same fabric
being incorporated into anotheroutfit.
People use up the ends offabrics in workrooms and
factories and you know it's amass-produced thing and that's
(13:27):
how kind of a fashion historymystery starts.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Absolutely.
And I will tell you that youknow a lot of these 17th and
18th century dolls used upexisting fabrics or leftover
fabrics from dresses.
And the one thing I will tellyou with Barbie, with Cindy,
those factories wasted nothing.
One thing I will tell you withBarbie with Cindy, those
factories wasted nothing.
And there's a little joke thata friend of mine and I have with
working with some factories inChina and in Japan.
(13:52):
We always joke and say there'sno such thing as black fabric
and they never manufacture blackfabric.
Because what happens if theymake?
They use orange fabric for adress and nobody buys it and
they have lots of orange fabricleft over.
Well, they just dunk it in theblack dye and voila, black
fabric.
And I found this perfect exampleof that happening with a Ken
(14:14):
outfit, and it was a 1970s Kenoutfit.
That was a tuxedo and the pantswere black.
However, if you held them up tothe light, this outfit was from
1978.
If you held them up to thelight, you could see the
Pepsi-Cola logo on it,indicating that they had reused
this 1973-74 Best Buy fabricthat was red, with the
(14:35):
Pepsi-Cola label on it.
And I thought, oh my God, thatis so funny, because they wasted
nothing.
They utilized every singlething.
It was, you know, they utilizedevery single thing.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
It really is amazing that there are so many little
mysteries out there that we haveto unravel and then they tell a
story of people makingdecisions that it's not some big
mass produced thing all thetime in a boardroom, that it's
somebody in a workroom sayingmake use of this, let's get it
out there.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
Oh, exactly, there's definitely this element of
choice that I think is part ofBarbie's appeal, more generally,
of fashion dolls where, even ifit is a doll that's mass
produced, you know the makershave choices that they execute
in terms of the types of fabricbeing used, but also the
impromptu choices that you knowchildren use when playing with
(15:24):
the dolls, Like well, I don'tknow, I like this color better
on the doll, so I don't care ifit actually went with Skipper
it's going on Barbie, and ofcourse that's also how we end up
with Weird Barbie, one of themost iconic Barbie dolls.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
We've all got one where we face the disappointment
that no, barbie's hair isn'tgoing to grow back.
And of course, there's thosetimes when you experiment with
her makeup and decide she looksnice with a lot of blue pen
eyeshadow.
Well, they're very rare dolls,those.
And you know we have to agreethat dolls are such an important
source of costume history forus today and that perhaps these
(16:05):
beautiful antique dolls andtheir beautiful costumes, maybe
they are amalgamations ofdifferent looks.
But one of the dolls thatreally intrigued me when I was
reading and looking at theexhibition was an 18th century
English doll.
It's 17 inches tall and itscostume has a pair of what were
called then leading strings,which are two long strips of
(16:27):
cloth attached to a child's gownto help them learn to walk.
And then I believe that oldergirls later wore a shorter
variation of this style as areminder of her status as an
unmarried woman, sarah, whatdoes this reveal about the
status of girls in the 17thcentury?
That they have this fashionstatement going throughout their
(16:49):
lives?
Speaker 3 (16:50):
Well, again, this is a great example of the social
history of dolls and how theytell us not only the types of
social values that they'reconveying to their respective
owners within their ownrespective time, they're telling
girls about their respectiveplace within society.
And the leading strings are agreat example From a practical
function.
(17:10):
You see them in 17th centurypaintings of toddlers and
they're basically a walking tool.
You put them on and then itkeeps children from falling over
or toddling off.
It's not unlike the harnessesthat you sometimes see today.
But then there's this socialdimension that gets attached to
them too, and it's thismetaphorical idea of you being,
(17:32):
as a woman, attached to yourfamily prior to marriage, but
then, when you are married, thestrings are cut as you
presumably joined your husband'sfamily.
So there's very much thisobjectification, patriarchal
lens attached to this Again,another great insight that I got
from Susan Dossiter during myresearch.
But again it emphasizes howit's not just dolls in pretty
(17:55):
dresses.
Those dresses carry meaning.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
They carry great social meaning and explain a lot
about that society to us today.
Exactly meaning, and explain alot about that society to us
today.
Bradley, what do you think ofthe dress with the little
leading strings?
Do you think Barbie also hadthese kind of?
No, she didn't really, did she?
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Well, she didn't really have anything such as
that, but the doll with theleading strings.
You kind of pretend to teachthat little doll to walk and you
know there was walking Barbie.
That was kind of a you helpedher walk.
It was a different concept.
However, just with speaking ofsociety and norms, it's no
mistake that when children weregetting Barbie and playing with
(18:35):
Barbie, that there was a levelof expectation of our society at
that moment, which is why wesaw a wedding gown.
There was a wedding gown forBarbie.
It was very much expected thatyou would grow up and get
married and that was going to bethe most amazing moment in your
life, but that was veryaspirational at that moment.
But I also loved that therewere other choices for Barbie.
(18:56):
There were career choices forBarbie.
So, although the wardrobe didreflect some of that, the one
thing that Barbie gave us wasmore of a choice and more of the
child making that decision whenthey're role-playing and
playing out that moment with thedolls.
So I do see there beingsocietal expectations because,
(19:17):
let's also face it, in the 1959wardrobe the little lingerie set
comes with a girdle and we allknow that Barbie really never
needed a girdle.
However, a girdle was a veryimportant moment in fashion at
that moment that you had to wearto make the dresses of the day
look the most amazing.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
And this was part of playing at being adult and a
variation on a style.
Bradley, as you mentioned,barbie had a girdle and
historically fashion dolls worecorsets, crinolines and bustles
all garments that restrictedmovement.
Do you think when childrenthrough history were told to put
these garments on dolls, werethey also being told to grow up
(20:00):
and perhaps reject the things weassociated with childhood, or
did they just want to play atbeing grown up?
I'm going to.
Or did they just want to playat being grown up?
Speaker 2 (20:07):
I'm going to go with.
They probably wanted to play atbeing grown up.
But the one thing with fashionas the silhouettes changed, as
the hems changed, as fit changed, there was always some form of
an undergarment that aided withportraying that silhouette, be
it the bustle with giving theemphasis to the back, the corset
(20:27):
or the stays, you know, holdingyou in and giving you good
posture.
And this is what the kids wereseeing that their mothers and
sisters were wearing and doing.
And so there is an aspect ofonce you start doing those
things, you are a grown up andmaybe you start rejecting some
of that freedom and movement torun and play.
But also it's the fitting intothe society, the fitting into
(20:50):
fashion, becoming the woman orthe person that you're expected
to become.
In all of these eras there isthat sort of moment of
conformity.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
The title of your Barbie exhibition is called Out
of the Box a Barbie dollretrospective, and one of the
things I believe very firmly isthat when the doll comes out of
the box, that's when the magicreally happens, because she
comes to life as children or ascollectors, we play with it,
dress it and give it a whole newpersonality.
(21:22):
Our own particular twist on thestory of the doll Barbie has
millions of fashions that allowher to transform from
cheerleader to pop star todoctor, encouraging children to
create their own story for thedoll.
Bradley, do you think hercareer aspirations allowed
Barbie doll to transcend justbeing a fashion figure?
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Absolutely.
I think even in the beginning,when Ruth Handler conceived the
idea of Barbie, I think shewanted the child to see that
they had choices and you chosethe way you would play with the
doll, the role of the doll, whatthe doll would be.
And I think as they added insort of these career elements
and even like the cheerleader Imean you can aspire to be a
(22:05):
cheerleader but I think theybecame more and more
aspirational.
By adding in the stewardesscostume or the flight attendant
uniform to the doctor, the nurse, it gave the indication to
little girls, little boys,whoever was playing with Barbie,
that you could aspire to besomething that maybe seemed out
(22:25):
of the realm of possibility, butyou could always aspire to that
and make it become a reality.
It is really sort of a momentof reflecting the evolution of
the society at that moment towhere, when Barbie started, the
traditional professions thatwere available to women were
teacher or secretary orstewardess or nurse.
(22:47):
And by the 70s you're seeingdoctor, you're seeing surgeon,
you're seeing many otheropportunities, you know, from
businesswoman to superchar, topaleontologist.
I mean there were so manythings that we never would have
imagined a woman or Barbie doingand suddenly we had those
choices.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Sarah, do you think the voices of parents, who
sometimes some mothers, and I'mafraid my own mother was one of
these people?
I was allowed to play withCindy, but when it came to
Barbie she was judged as toomature.
So I saved up my allowance andbought Barbie myself.
(23:29):
Thank you, malibu.
Barbie, she was a veryreasonable price and I, small
child that I was, could affordher.
But sometimes I wonder,sometimes you know, growing up
with Barbie, did this kind ofdisapproval of parents did it
make us want Barbie more?
But did it also say to Mattelwell, you have to help her
(23:52):
depart away from just being afashion figure, just being a
girl at the beach or a girl in apretty dress.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
That's a really interesting question.
And well, first of all, theidea of Barbie being too mature.
She's not the first fashiondoll to come under controversy.
For that I'm thinking of MadameAlexander Sissy.
When she debuted in 1955 as afull-figured debutante, she also
faced some criticism from otherdoll makers in terms of why are
(24:22):
you debuting this busty dollfor children?
But, as madame alexanderexplained, like she's an
aspirational figure.
This is what the could be forchildren in terms of what you
could be in a few years.
You could be this sophisticatedyoung person going out and
enjoying the opera or taking inan elegant luncheon somewhere.
(24:43):
So, on the one hand, barbiereflects those ongoing
controversies, but it's evenmore concentrated because she's
so widely available.
But Barbie is also she's alwaysbeen in some ways a reflection
of the aspirations of the timeand, as Bradley pointed out, as
she has moved through these pastsix decades, her career has
(25:03):
diversified and I think thatreflects a variety of influences
.
I mean, certainly probably partof it is a response to parents
in terms of oh well, you know,we don't want her to be overly
sexualized, so let's providesome other options.
But it's also reflecting theinterest of youth culture at the
time.
I mean think of what'shappening with women's lib in
the 70s and then with theyuppies of the 80s and their
(25:26):
power moves and the mansions ofthe 90s.
Barbie is very much areflection of the aspirations of
society at large, so she'sresponding to not just
criticisms from parents but alsothe interests of children.
One of the things that alwaysintrigued me about when I was
researching for this show wasreading about the studies done
that Mattel conducted on Barbiewhen they were getting ready to
(25:48):
market the doll.
And they were conductingstudies with parents and
children to see how they reactedto the dolls.
And they found that whileparents were all saying oh, no,
no, no, she's too sexualized,what are you doing with this
full figure doll or whatnot,children were fascinated because
(26:09):
they could play out thesegrown-up scenarios that
intrigued them.
You've got the mysterious worldof adulthood that is in the
future, but you're not there yet.
But you're intrigued and Barbieis your guide.
She's your Virgil, essentiallytaking you through this passage
as you imagine what thesescenarios could be like.
One of the ways that I've cometo think about Barbie is that,
whereas some of these olderfashion dolls we've been looking
(26:30):
at from the 18th and 19thcenturies are the what will be.
Barbie is very much a whatcould be and presenting a
variety of futures to theiryoung owners.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
I think this is a very interesting way of looking
at Barbie what could be.
And actually, if I go back tomy little self with Malibu
Barbie, that's what I wasplaying out, what I could be.
So it is about what you couldbe.
It's not just about whatparents think you should be.
So maybe this is something thatthese dolls offer every
(27:01):
generation and every century.
When you go and play with themon your own, you make your own
little personal world.
What do you think, bradley?
Speaker 2 (27:10):
I totally agree with that because I know as a kid
playing with Barbie and you know, gi Joe with my brothers and
action figures and stuff, it wascreating that little world out
of your head, being inspired bytelevision and movies that we
saw.
But you know it wasrole-playing, it was imagination
.
It was, as I've said repeatedly, aspirational, like playing out
(27:31):
those adult situations that Iwas trying to understand and
work my way through.
So I definitely see it as whatSarah said, what could be.
So maybe Mattel should workwith that idea, sarah, I think
they should pay for that.
That's a great way of lookingat it.
So it's very, very, very muchthe aspirational sort of tool to
(27:55):
play with.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
It certainly is, and when we look at these dolls, one
of the most interesting thingsabout them is their posability.
I mean, they're small enough tobe in our hand, so they're
quite an intimate thing.
But one of the things I loveabout Barbie and you see this
also even with the larger woodendolls the wooden dolls had
mortise and tendon joints toallow them to pose.
(28:18):
Barbie really intrigued kidsbecause she had the bendable
legs.
Later she had bendable arms.
She had little wrist joints.
She even had little tiny anklejoints and of course these are
innovations that we see also in19th century French fashion
dolls.
Dolls and bébés could actuallybe posed as ballerinas, which is
(28:43):
quite an extraordinary level ofmovement when you think it was
in a composition or a woodenbody, and it had to have all
these little ball joints.
Barbie had a team of makeupartists, engineers and designers
to give her a more lifelikelook and even to talk.
Bradley, tell us about thedesigners and innovators who
(29:03):
worked with Mattel to makeBarbie such a dynamic fashion
doll.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
Well, Mattel was very determined that they would have
the best innovators, creatorsand sort of geniuses creating
for them.
They actually were part of thegreat brain drain of Europe,
like in the 1950s and 60s, wherethey brought over so many
talented and brilliant people towork on making toys.
(29:29):
One of the people that theyacquired in the mid-1950s was
Jack Ryan, and Jack Ryan hadbeen a Yale-educated gentleman
who had worked for Raytheondeveloping the Sparrow and Hawk
low-altitude missiles in the1950s, but he ends up at Mattel
and he was an absolute sort ofgenius that he designed and
(29:52):
created so many toys in his nameappears on so many of the
patents, including the patentfor the Barbie.
But he also developed the twistand turn waist, the bendable
leg, the articulated livingBarbie body, and he had
developed the talking mechanismfor the Chatty Cathy doll and
was finally able to shrink thatdown to fit into a Barbie torso.
(30:15):
So then we had Talking Barbie.
So many of the innovations thatmade the doll more lifelike and
more poseable he had a verylarge hand in.
And then the other fun thingslike Color Magic Barbie with the
hair that could change color,and the quick curl Barbie hair
that had little tiny metalfilaments in that would allow it
(30:35):
to be curled with no heat orwater.
He had a hand in that as well.
So he held so many patents forMattel and he worked with a team
of creative minded people thatthey were just churning out so
many ideas that it really reallyevolved the doll over time more
(31:06):
gimmicky, where I always tendto think of Barbie as a fashion
doll.
So Mattel also employed amazingwomen's wear designers that had
worked in the fashion industryand for Hollywood to create some
of these classic looks forBarbie.
Charlotte Johnson was the firstdesigner hired for Barbie and
she sort of paved the way andcreated the method and style
that they would use to designfor Barbie.
(31:28):
You know, Barbie is not like uswhere we can move our hand to
fit through the sleeve of ajacket.
Her hand is very fixed and shehas separate fingers.
So the sleeves had to bedesigned in such a way that
those hands would slide throughand the fit always had to be
perfect.
And Charlotte Johnson herselffaced the criticisms of Barbie's
(31:48):
unrealistic figure.
But, as she reminded you, add alayer of clothing to this and
it becomes very much normal thatthe layers of clothing that
went onto the doll it had to beslightly too small, Otherwise
she would look too bulky.
It had to be slightly too small, Otherwise she would look too
bulky.
So there were so many creativepeople over those first years
(32:12):
that really kind of created theroadmap that I think all the
Mattel people today sort offollow.
It's really kind of a pathwayof geniuses.
The men innovated those Barbiebodies.
It's very similar to the 19thcentury with all of the French
fashion bodies.
There are so many patents inthe 19th century for the French
fashion dolls, for articulationand movement to create that
(32:32):
realism.
And it's reflected in theout-of-the-box exhibit as well.
One of the focal points thatSarah had pointed out when I was
there is the Radicke Cordonierdoll.
That's sort of the centerpieceof the antique portion of the
exhibit and it's kind of ironicthat that doll is there.
(32:52):
From the perspective of, it'sthe same thing that the original
Barbie doll had.
This doll has openings in thebottom of her feet that allow
her to stand on a posing standthat has these two prongs that
stick up, which is exactly thesame concept that the number one
Barbie did.
So I always like to remindeverybody that, as innovative as
(33:12):
Barbie is, there was so muchinnovation and inspiration that
took place more than 100 yearsago.
That kind of paved the way forthe way we look at the dolls.
Kind of paved the way for theway we look at the dolls.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Sarah.
As Bradley mentioned, the 19thcentury fashion dolls and Barbie
share many characteristics andinnovations.
What other fashion dolls willthe exhibitions discuss and what
will we see on view when wevisit?
Speaker 3 (33:46):
So we've got quite a few of our historical dolls out
on view.
The exhibition is reallydivided in two parts.
So we have the Barbie andFriends, as I've been calling it
, on one side of the show, butthen the other half of the
exhibition is focusing onpre-Barbie.
So we go back as far as theearly 19th century and then we
move up in through the 1950swith Madame Alexander's Sissy,
and the whole point of thatexhibition is it's twofold.
(34:09):
On the one hand, we wanted tobring out some great examples
from our collection to have onview to go with the Barbie show.
But we also wanted to iteratethe idea that Barbie did not
emerge from a vacuum.
Barbie did not emerge out ofnowhere as this fully formed
fashion doll with an extensivewardrobe and whatnot and these
patents that enabled her to move.
(34:29):
You find these precedents withother companies such as Maison
Hiret or Steiner or Jumeau.
In terms of making the dollmore lifelike, We've been
focusing on movement, but Jumeauwas also interested in talking
dolls and briefly explored thatoption after Thomas Edison
developed a doll a few yearsprior.
(34:49):
So this idea of, on the one hand, creating dolls that foster
imagination, but also creatingdolls that cultivate the
imagination of the people makingthem.
That's an idea that you see atplay across the decades.
But what makes Barbie stand outis the scale and the depth of
that innovation.
I mean, Barbie is just on ascale that's unlike any of these
(35:11):
other dolls that we see interms of the size of the
production and the global reach.
I mean, yes, 19th centuryfashion dolls did travel the
world, but how many peoplearound the world can recognize a
Jumeau as opposed to a Barbie?
So her main influence is herubiquity, I would say.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
Barbie is a pop culture icon and that's quite an
extraordinary statement to beable to make about what is a
fashion doll.
Barbie is one of the mostrecognized dolls across the
world and, of course, her teamof designers never tire of
innovating, and one of the mostinnovative things that Barbie
(35:50):
has is her style and wardrobe.
Bradley, who are some of thegreat Mattel designers, who
around three or four Barbiedesigners and that team
continued to grow.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
It grew in many ways from originally just being what
they considered a soft goodsdesigner, where they did
anything that was in fabric foranything, to just being what
they would recur to as aprincipal designer for the
Barbie doll would recur to as aprincipal designer for the
Barbie doll.
(36:26):
In 1977, they added Kitty BlackParkins, and she was from South
Carolina and was one of thefirst African-American designers
hired by Mattel.
She brought a whole new styleand approach to designing for
Barbie.
Kitty was amazing in that shedid what we call
transformational Barbie dolls.
The one example I'll give youis like Golden Dream Barbie,
(36:50):
which has this metallic swimsuitand metallic gold pants and
like a sheer sort of like littlecapelet that could also be a
hat.
The doll, the single doll,could go from being on the beach
and laying out in the sun to aglittery night at the disco.
Kitty told me when Iinterviewed her one time that
she felt that if a child onlyreceived that one doll, it was
going to have everything kind ofbuilt into that doll that the
(37:11):
child would get hours of playvalue out of it.
Katie had like a 25-year careerat Mattel, but one of the
things that she was very focusedon being an African-American
woman was to create a doll thatreflected her.
So many times throughout historywe've just said that the
analogy we've used is manyAfrican-American dolls, or Black
(37:33):
dolls, were just white dollsdipped in brown paint.
They did not reflect the wayother cultures and other people
looked.
But Mattel started approachingit in 1980 with creating dolls
that were very reflective of theworld we lived in and that not
everybody was, you know, blondeand blue-eyed.
And so Kitty designed in 1980the first black Barbie.
(37:56):
It was not the first black dollin the Barbie line we had had
Christy and Francine Cara, butthis was the first doll that was
black, that was called Barbie.
She had this fabulous littleafro and this like glittery red
outfit and all of this jewelryand these like strappy disco
sandals and the skirt snappedoff.
So it was like this little likeswimsuit, playsuit kind of
(38:17):
thing.
It was just really, reallyfabulous, one of my favorite
dolls.
It was just a moment in history.
Kitty continued to do reallyfabulous dolls and really kind
of bringing it to Metallus, towanting to instill diversity in
this line and creating a wholeworld of amazing black and brown
dolls and so much play valuealways worked into every single
(38:41):
one of her designs.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
It's amazing that they were thinking that way of
adding the different parts ofthe costume, because that's just
the thing you love as a child,and yet they were also making
doll history with this beautifuldoll.
So, sarah, following in thefootsteps, perhaps, of the
Pandoras that were dressed bycouturiers, barbie has inspired
(39:04):
fashion designers to design forher.
Tell me, have you got any ofthese fantastic designer Barbies
in the exhibition?
Speaker 3 (39:11):
We sure do, thanks to Bradley.
So a couple of examples off thetop of my head is we have a
fabulous dark turquoise gowndesigned by Oscar de la Renta
from the 1980s, and we've alsogot a fabulous Bob Mackie
ensemble.
I mean, I think what appeals tothese designers about Barbie is
the fact that, on the one hand,she is so readily recognizable
(39:35):
and that, too, she can beanything.
So it's this invitation, thischallenge to make your mark with
this doll and to stand out fromall these other incarnations.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
I think also Bob Mackie has really been such a
iconic Hollywood designer forCher, for Carol Burnett, for so
many stars of the stage andscreen, and he also chooses to
design for Barbie.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Bob Mackie did a pair of dolls one year.
That was the Goddess of the Sunand the Goddess of the Moon,
and she's this sort of likegolden, orangey, radiant doll in
a beaded costume with thiselaborate headdress.
That is a true Bob Mackie style.
That was just, you know,evocative of Cher or some sort
of stage costume.
Bob Mackie really made someamazing costumes for Barbie and
(40:25):
continues to work with Matteldoing some things for Barbie.
So it's to me it's really coolthat one of Hollywood's greatest
designers is actually designingfor the Barbie doll.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
I know one of the things I love about these
designer Barbies is that itallows you to own a little bit
of haute couture magic withoutpaying the incredible price for
the full-size version.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
Well, we all would like to have like a designer
costume hanging in the closet.
You can once again livevicariously through Barbie.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
I think that's what's great about Barbie and fashion
dolls.
The historic fashion dollsallow us to look at the past and
allow us to hold the past inour hands, and Barbie does the
same thing.
Whether it's vintage Barbiefrom 1959, mod Barbie, she's
charting 66 years of fashion.
One of the things in thisexhibition that I think is going
(41:17):
to be really somethingdifferent is the fact that
you've been inspired by Barbiethe movie and you have built
some of Barbie's dream houses,because in Barbie the movie, of
course, her whole community ispopulated by various dream
houses that reflect the variousguises of Barbie, bradley and
(41:38):
Sarah.
How did you get the idea ofrecreating the Dreamhouse?
Speaker 3 (41:42):
You're right, louisa.
That is going to be such a funpart of the show and it actually
ties into the Berry ArtMuseum's commitment to working
with different universitydepartments.
So the Dreamhouses in thisinstance are a collaboration
between the museum and ourtheater program, whom we've
actually worked with beforeElwood Woody Robinson and Jim
(42:03):
Lydon back in 2021, designedsome theater sets for a show
that we did on Karen Lamont backin 2021, which was aptly titled
Théâtre de la Mode and wasexploring those fashion dolls
from post-World War II France,and we had theater sets designed
for these full-size maquettes.
So when we came up with theBarbie show idea and we were
(42:26):
thinking about ways to activateit for visitors, it felt like a
natural fit to go back to thetheater department and work on
some of these life-size dreamhouses, especially after the
Barbie movie came out and thatwhole opening sequence where you
see the neighborhood and all ofthese different dream houses
and the accessories that go withthem, and you know that people
who collected those dream housesknow exactly what types of
(42:48):
toast is being referenced in theopening scene and so forth.
So we wanted to inject a senseof that fun into the show.
So what you will find in theexhibition are two human-scaled
recreations of different dreamhouses.
In the center of the galleryyou have a recreation of the
1979 Barbie dream house, theA-frame, the very 70s earth tone
(43:12):
one.
This is actually the gatewaybetween the two parts of the
show.
So when you enter theexhibition, you start out in the
pre-Barbie section and what yousee is a silhouette of the 79
Dreamhouse that will be coveredin a custom wallpaper depicting
paper dolls.
Because we wanted to tie in theinfluence of paper dolls on the
(43:33):
development of Barbie.
Because that's what initiallysparked Ruth Handler's idea was
she saw her daughter Barbaraplaying with paper dolls and was
imagining how a 3D version ofthat could enhance her
make-believe.
But then when you walk throughthe gateway of this silhouette,
you cross into Barbie land andon the other side you have a
three-dimensional rendering ofthe dream house and then
(43:53):
everything is Technicolor.
So that's the first dream house,and then the second one is in
the corner over by the exit ofthe show and that is based on
the 2021 dream house, and ourtheater folks picked that one
for a couple of reasons.
One they thought it would be funto reconstruct it because it
had a couple of different levelsand it just provided more
visual interest than a singlelevel dream house, for example.
(44:16):
But they also picked thatdesign because it was a
wonderful synthesis of vintagearchitectural taste with modern
sensibilities.
So, on the one hand, you'rechanneling this 1960s,
california, mid-centurymodernism style, but the 2021
dream house was builtspecifically to cater to 21st
(44:37):
century interests.
It's modular in design, it'sthinking of influencer culture
and that you can convert yourpool into a shop for selfies or
filming videos or whatnot.
It also features a wheelchairaccessible lift that can take
visitors up to the second floor,so keeping in mind
accessibility.
So we thought that those twodream houses would be great
(44:59):
because, on the one hand, the 79is such an iconic silhouette
and then the 2021 dream housereally reflects how Barbie, the
brand today, is a combination ofvintage tastes and 21st century
interests.
Speaker 1 (45:14):
But that sounds so exciting and like such a
wonderful installation, and whatI love about this is it's
bringing innovation to a Barbieexhibition.
Bradley, what is your favoritedream house in the exhibition?
Speaker 2 (45:28):
Oh my gosh.
Well, I love the 1979 dreamhouse because, as nine-year-old,
bradley would have loved tohave gotten that under the
Christmas tree and did not.
So seeing it in such an amazingscale is pretty incredible, and
just walking through thosedoors into the exhibit it really
sort of transports you toBarbie land.
It's really kind of amazing.
Now the 2021 house that's inthe corner of the exhibit to me
(45:53):
is amazing because as you'restanding there, you can look out
the window onto the beach,because you know we have to have
a location for Ken to bebecause you know his job is
beach and so we have a completeview of the beach and it's
really incredible.
And also in that corner they aredoing an exhibit of costumes
(46:14):
that were created in-house atMattel in the early 1980s, that
live models actually wore atevents and special events, like
at department stores and stuff.
So they actually have likelife-size versions of Barbie,
best Buys and Dream Date Barbiethat are historical, which I
kind of got very excited when Isaw.
(46:35):
So I love the whole idea ofBarbie fashion inspiring real
fashion.
And when we were speaking ofthe fashion designers, this is
what popped in my head because Ilove to see sort of the
historical thing of like howwomen's fashion inspired Barbie
in the beginning, and then inthe 80s, we have Barbie fashions
being created for grownups, andthen I think it was 2015 that
(46:57):
Jeremy Scott did a wholecollection of fashions inspired
by Barbie.
So Barbie's just everywhere andI love it.
Being in this exhibit, seeingit in my scale, really kind of
transforms me and it's just,it's pretty incredible.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
This sounds so original, so epic, and it brings
together so many elements ofthe things that make Barbie
interesting and keep herrelevant and perhaps this is the
secret of her 66 years ofinnovation that she just never
stops surprising us withwonderful elements.
(47:36):
She never stops inspiring us uswith wonderful elements.
She never stops inspiring us.
Speaker 3 (47:40):
I think that is so true, Louisa, and it really
plays out in the contents of theshow itself, because those
life-size costumes that Bradleywas describing, those came from
a local lender and a lot of thedolls that you will find in the
exhibition are from lendersbased in the Hampton Roads area.
(48:00):
That was a deliberate call onour part.
We have found that with everydoll exhibition we have done,
there has always been a robustlocal response and we find out
about these fabulous collectionsafter the show opens.
So when we did Madame Alexandera couple years ago, several
locals came forward with thesewonderful dolls.
And when we did Martha Chase,we had a similar response and we
(48:23):
were just thinking all right,if we got that response to these
dolls that are upwards of 80,90 years old at this point, how
are they going to respond toBarbie?
Let's see what happens.
So we did a community call andquite a few of the dolls that
you will see in the show arefrom this very area and it just
goes to emphasize how importantBarbie is around the world and
(48:45):
to different local communities.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
Oh, she is, and she brings communities together and
she brings people together todiscuss her, to discuss her
fashion influences, to discusshow designers interpret for her.
And then, of course, Barbie.
The movie brought out so manydifferent discourses about being
Ken, what Ken meant to Barbieand maybe why Barbie never
married Ken, which is alwaysvery interesting for a girl who
(49:11):
had Bradley.
How many wedding gowns do youthink Barbie had?
Speaker 2 (49:14):
Oh my gosh.
Well, there's always been oneevery single year, and in some
cases there were multiples eachyear, so over 100 at least.
So it's pretty incredible thatthat is one of the most popular
fashions for the Barbie doll.
Speaker 1 (49:30):
And it's a doll that all of us love to have because
it's a magical moment.
Like at the end of a fashionshow they always show a bride,
because it's about rebirth,transformation, you know, a new
life, new things happening, andBarbie just keeps transforming
and keeps inspiring, and I thinkthis show is going to inspire
(49:51):
collectors and non-collectorsand people who just enjoy pop
culture, phenomenons andinteriors, and there's just so
many elements on, of course,fashion.
But what I love also is they'regoing to be able to see this
relationship between history,fashion history and dolls and
discover dolls throughout thecenturies and what influencers
(50:13):
fashion dolls the originalinfluencers.
Can you give us some details,sarah, of the Carve Couture, the
first exhibition we talkedabout?
Remind us of how long it'll beon for.
Speaker 3 (50:26):
Yes, certainly so.
Carve Couture will be openthrough July 31st of 2025, and
it's located on the second floorof the museum.
It's in the doll gallery insidethe smaller feature gallery.
And Bradley what are the datesof Out of the museum?
It's in the doll gallery insidethe smaller feature gallery.
Speaker 1 (50:41):
And Bradley.
What are the dates of Out ofthe Box, a Barbie doll
retrospective?
Speaker 2 (50:46):
It will run through July 31st through the summer.
Speaker 1 (50:49):
Wonderful, and is there going to be any online
content?
Because perhaps for those of usin Europe or around the world,
maybe we can't get to theexhibition, because I just can't
wait to see the dream houses.
Speaker 3 (51:02):
Oh, certainly so.
There is a webpage up for itnow, and typically for our
exhibitions we'll do a 3D tourso that you can visit it
virtually.
And then I know we're planningsome special programming
alongside the show, and thoseare often broadcast virtually as
well.
Speaker 1 (51:19):
That's going to be wonderful.
Bradley, have you anything youwant to add to that?
Speaker 2 (51:23):
With the museum's permission, I probably will do
like a little video tour ofmyself or something like that
that I might share with myfriend Louisa.
Speaker 1 (51:32):
Oh, thank you.
I would love that.
I really would love that,because it's going to be an
incredible exhibition.
So I hope you share a lot withus online, because the Barry Art
Museum has so much and hasgiven so much to doll collectors
since it opened, and I believeyou're going to have a refit.
There's some news from theBarry, isn't there, sarah?
Speaker 3 (51:54):
There certainly is, and I'm glad you brought that up
, because it has to do with theclosing dates of the shows.
So if you are able to come tothe Berry Art Museum this summer
, please do, because these arethe last two exhibitions before
we temporarily close for a majorexpansion.
We've been open a little oversix years, but in that time we
(52:14):
have doubled the size of ourcollections.
So this summer we're going toembark on an expansion that will
double the size of ourgalleries and our collection
storage spaces and ouradministrative spaces.
We're going to be addingseveral new galleries onto the
museum, including a brand new,larger permanent gallery for the
dolls and a new temporary dollgallery for the rotating shows.
(52:38):
So instead of being nestedinside one larger gallery, it
will get a space of its own.
And additionally, we're goingto be adding a new education
suite.
We're going to convert theadministrative offices we have
now and turn it into studiospace, and then we're going to
add a brand new third floorwhere we will move our
collection storage as well asour offices.
(52:59):
So in 2027, we're scheduled toreopen and it's going to be a
new museum that will be able todo what we're doing now even
better.
Speaker 1 (53:08):
That sounds so amazing, bradley.
Isn't it wonderful for us, aslongtime doll collectors, to
think that a museum as importantas the Barry Art Museum has
been so successful with its dollexhibitions that now it's
actually going to expand andthis is an enduring legacy of
(53:28):
Carolyn and Dick Barry that isgoing to continue and be
sustained?
What do you think, bradley?
Isn't it wonderful?
Speaker 2 (53:36):
I find it just sublime to finally finally see
the doll presented as art, thedoll presented as such a
cultural thing and it presentedin such an amazing and I I'll
just say, serious, importantkind of way that it's not just
relegated to a nostalgia sort ofthing, that it's presented in
(53:57):
such a, you know, serious mannerthat it requires study, it
requires you to pay attentionand to acknowledge just how
important the doll as a tool, asa plaything, is important to
our culture.
Speaker 1 (54:13):
It is important and it's such a step forward.
Sarah and Bradley, thank you somuch for joining me on the Doll
Podcast, for sharing the storyof fashion dolls throughout the
century and for telling us allabout the exhibitions and also
for sharing this news.
I want to congratulate you onwhat you've done for dolls, for
(54:35):
doll collecting, for the doll asart.
Thank you so much for joiningme on the Doll Podcast and for
sharing these great moments indoll collecting with me.
Speaker 3 (54:46):
Thank you so much for having us.
It is always a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (54:49):
Thank you so much, Louisa.
Speaker 1 (54:51):
Thank you.
Thank you for joining us on theDoll Podcast.
Thank you for joining us on theDoll Podcast.
To find out more about thisepisode, just go to our website,
wwwdollpodcastcom, where you'llfind lots of photos and links
(55:12):
and more information.
You can also find the DollPodcast on Facebook and
Instagram.
Be sure to subscribe to ourpodcast to keep up to date with
all the latest news.
The Doll Podcast is created byNiche Podcast Productions.
Our music is by CelticConspiracy.
(55:36):
Copyright Louisa Maxwell 2025.
All rights reserved.
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