December 22, 2024 • 58 mins
Did you know paper dolls were the original fashion influencers?
Samy Odin author, lecturer and former Director of the the Musée de la Poupée-Paris joins host Louisa Maxwell to discuss the historic role of paper dolls. Samy takes us through the evolution paper dolls from their beginnings as a playful exploration of identity in the 17th century, to promoting fashion and the arts. These delicate creations are now valued collectables and a record of fashion and play through the centuries.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to the Doll Podcast.
I'm your host, louisa Maxwell.
Paper dolls tell a unique story.
As we trace their history, wediscover that they have been
used as fashion plates, asadvertising, to promote the arts
and, of course, as toys to playwith.
(00:27):
My guest is author and lecturerSamy Odan.
Samy Odan served as thedirector of the Musée de la
Poupe, paris for 25 years.
During that time, he wasfortunate enough to curate
exhibitions with some of theworld's most beautiful and
precious dolls.
Sammy is the author of numerousbooks on dolls and shares his
(00:52):
expertise lecturing atconventions and exhibitions.
Sammy has a new featurededicated to paper dolls in the
American monthly magazineAntique Doll Collector Sammy
Audin.
Welcome to the Doll Podcast.
Hello, louisa, I'm so thrilledto be back.
(01:12):
Well, it's so wonderful to seeyou again and I am absolutely
fascinated by this topic.
I read your articles and it'sjust amazing what a huge world
it opens up when you begin toexplore paper dolls.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Yes, it is.
I've been privileged to be, youknow, playing paper dolls since
my childhood.
So here I am.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Sammy, reading your recent feature in Antique Doll
Collector reminded me of howmuch I enjoyed playing with
paper dolls as a child.
I was fascinated to learn howlong these dolls have been
produced and how they reflectedfamous personalities, fashion
and childhood throughout thecenturies.
So, to begin with, how did youstart collecting paper dolls?
Speaker 2 (02:09):
collecting paper dolls.
Well, I was fortunate becausemy father was a painter and I
was raised with two cousins, agirl and a boy, and we were
exposed to the existence ofpaper dolls since our very small
childhood.
I remember I was probably fouror five years old when we
already had paper dolls to playwith during our rainy days, so
(02:32):
this is something that reallyhas been constant throughout my
life.
My father drew paper dolls forme, which I kept, of course, and
I drew paper dolls myself.
Once I was a little more ableto use a pencil, and long before
I got interested in antiquedolls, I was already a paper
(02:54):
doll collector.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
I used to play with them as a child too.
They used to come in comicbooks that we used to get in
Ireland and also my mother'smagazines that we used to get in
Ireland and also my mother'smagazines, and you'd cut them
out and you'd play with mysisters, put on all the little
clothes and it was so delightfulthe colorful costumes and it
was very sympathetic with thingslike Cindy and various things I
(03:17):
was playing with at the time.
But I also felt that the paperdolls just like when you see
illustrations about Barbie orCindy or any 20th century doll
that the doll seems to come tolife in the illustration and I
also noticed this with the paperdolls.
There was a vibrancy in theexpression, in the way that
(03:38):
sometimes the clothes seem tohave a little bit of movement
because the doll was gesturing.
It was such fun.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Yes, it was, and I have the feeling that you know.
The fact that paper dolls havebeen constantly linked with
three-dimensional dolls made thedoll scene so much more
colorful and opening up waysthat you can, as a child, get to
(04:06):
enjoy those playthings.
And adults, of course, havebeen as much into them, since we
will discuss later thatinitially it was an adult
entertainment more than a childentertainment a child
(04:26):
entertainment.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
That's what fascinated me about your article
and when we were discussingthis for the podcast that paper
dolls really go back as far asthe first paper that was created
.
People were making figures andusing them to animate them with
fashion or with ideas.
One of the earliest games thatyou told me about is in the
mid-17th century, and that's thejeu de métamorphosis.
(04:49):
Well, perfect.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
In French we say it's jeu de métamorphose, but of
course it's metamorphosis withan English pronunciation.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
It's a little metamorphosis or a
transformation, and the gameshave little characters and they
have maybe interchangeable heads, bodies and feet, which can be
combined in different ways tocreate humorous or dramatic
changes.
What are some of the earlyexamples of this game and what
kind of characters did theyfeature?
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Well, the real source for Jeux de Métamorphose goes
really back to the 17th and 18thcentury, before even paper was
really used for it.
They had those wonderfulhand-painted portraits that were
most of the time onlyrepresenting a head, and then
(05:44):
you had the costumes that werehand-painted on mica overlays.
So there was no paper in it, itwas a transparent material that
was called mica and that youcould hand-paint, of course, on
the back of it and have aneffect that you would change in
(06:04):
the transformations that were sopopular under the Ancien Régime
.
You could pretend to be anyonethrough these guys.
So you had different socialstatus, appearances.
You could both be in gender,male, female.
(06:25):
In between.
It was very open and, you see,those portraits usually are
extremely good looking, but it'sthe way they are painted.
They can be turned into a maleor a female indiscriminately.
So it's interesting to see thatsociety at that time didn't
(06:49):
seem to have to struggle withgender as much as our present.
So Les Jeux de Métamorphose thatI've been admiring for so long,
because most of the majormuseums, public museums and
private museums have in theircollections sometimes we present
(07:09):
people from the courts theCourt of England, the Court of
France and they were probablypainted either in France or in
Holland and they were atelierswho were specializing in these
portraits with mica overlays.
And they were atelier orspecializing in these portraits
with mica overlays, and theywere kept into a very chic
(07:31):
little container that wasusually covered in leather and
you could add, layer after layer, all of these disguises.
So I think it was really asocial way, you know, of
pretending to be someone else.
And when you think the wayaristocracy used to gather for
(07:53):
bowls, most of the time theywould be invited to a disguised
bowl.
So this was really part of the.
You know you would getinspiration from the theater,
from the actuality, from novels,and I'm sure that most of us
(08:16):
today don't get the culturalreference that these disguises
refer to, but they must havebeen, you know, very easy to
understand and to read for thepeople from the 17th and 18th
century.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Ah, it's a little bit like, for example, when we hear
about the language of flowers.
Flowers used to have a specificmeaning, so these disguises had
a specific meaning and ofcourse that's very apt to
Halloween and masquerade and westart to imagine ourselves as
other people.
So in many respects it's such amodern concept.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
As you said, it moved outside gender and it was a
very fluid idea of exchange ofideas and fun.
Yes, indeed, I think we we ascollectors today to get the
chance to look at some of thesejeux de métamorphose.
Very few are representing afull figure, so most of the time
(09:17):
it's only portraits.
But the portraits have theselayers that really tell you a
lot about these guys.
It's also those inspired by theCommedia dell'Arte from Italy,
and all those concealingidentity was really part of the
social game of the time,especially for adults.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Oh, this is really good.
So would this be a game?
Because it's so interesting totry and think about how they
played.
This game would be this kind ofan after dinner game where
you'd all get together andthere'd be almost an innuendo,
or.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
I think so, and it was probably, you know,
something that we forgot aboutand we no longer are able to
read.
But since society was socodified, you could probably
send messages through simply,you know, showing your pictures.
If these portraits wererepresenting the sitter, then
(10:18):
you could pretend to be.
You know, send messages thatwere implicit.
But.
But to us today it's difficultto understand how it worked.
But it certainly did workbecause I've noticed Jeux de
Métamorphose in almost all ofthe major museums in London.
There is one exceptional in theIsabella Gardner Museum in
(10:41):
Boston In the Isabella GardnerMuseum in Boston.
There are several in Italianmuseums in the UK, some in
American major institutions,including the Met.
So, yes, the Jeux deMétamorphose are difficult to
find, but when one happens tofind one, it's really very
(11:04):
highly sought-after, collectible.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
They should pick that as a theme for the Met Ball and
have to reveal what it meanswhen you dress.
So what kind of character?
Speaker 2 (11:25):
So if you're a lady and you've got the beautiful
portrait, what kind ofcharacters could she transform
into?
Well, the one that I have in mycollection has, I would say,
50% are representing malecostumes, including Episcopal
characters.
So you have a monk, a priest, acardinal, and then you have
(11:46):
royalty, so some wearing crowns,others are very flamboyant, so
you have ball gowns, you havehigh aristocracy type of
garments and then you have veryat the opposite, you have very
simple garments representingpoor people or people that are
(12:08):
from the countryside.
You can tell that there was agame, especially with shepherds.
For example, In almost all ofthe jeux de métamorphose that
I've seen or had in my hands,there is always a shepherd
somewhere seen or had in myhands.
There is always a shepherdsomewhere.
So the game I'm thinking ofMarie Antoinette, who was so
(12:29):
thrilled to be always wearingshepherdess disguises.
And then you have many that arecertainly referring to the
opera.
So the heroes of the operas areconstant and we see that even
in the later period, during theRomantic era, with the paper
(12:52):
dolls that represent ballerinas,and the ballerinas, of course,
wear the garments that are thedisguises for each character
that they play from history ornovels and all of that.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
It's wonderful.
It's all linked up with poetry,with music of the time, marie
Antoinette, the way they allused to play, and they'd have
actual sheep, perfectly washedand groomed for Marie.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Antoinette to walk next to and this beautiful,
idealized, idyllic existence.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
And of course it's a movement in music and literature
.
And you bring all this to lifewhen you tell us about this
wonderful game.
It's amazing.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Well, it's true that, even though paper was not
involved in that stage, but itreally has been the grain that
bloomed into a hobby that becamefirst a fashion hobby for
adults and very quickly itturned into a plaything for
(13:59):
everyone, including childrenincluding children.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Well, that's true, because in 1834, in France, a
new magazine was publishedcalled La Toilette de Sicier,
nouveau Journal des Modes,sciences, Littérateurs et
Beaux-Arts, and that'stranslated as the Toilette, and
we'd say in English Psy, psyche,like a little bit like the
Greek, the New Journal ofFashion, science, literature and
Fine Arts.
That's quite a magazine.
(14:30):
They really covered everything.
Yes, exactly.
They had a revolutionary way ofshowcasing the latest fashions
using a paper doll called Ciché.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
Were these paper dolls like fashion magazines
today, showcasing the lateststyles magazine like this, the
same concept that was developedmuch later by Las Mendes Suzette
, for example.
The subscribers were kind ofbelonging to an elite, to a
group of those who had commoninterest.
(15:16):
And if you were into fashionand you would go into a shop and
say, you know, I would likethis and that, because this is
what is trendy, the people whowere publishing the magazine and
giving out all of these veryluxury paper dolls were
certainly, you know, theequivalent of the influencers
(15:37):
that we have today through theinternet.
So it was a way to really get acrowd of knowledgeable and fans
club to follow up and to createa trend.
I had the feeling that thecompanies, the couturiers, the
(15:59):
ateliers that were behind thescene for the Toilette de Psyché
magazine were actually theinfluencers of that time and it
worked, as I understand fromthem.
Unfortunately, I haven't spentenough time to go through the
magazines that are at theBibliothèque Nationale in Paris,
(16:22):
but going through a few, Inoticed that you could feel the
mentality of the editor was toyou know, we are among ourselves
, we are.
If you want to be in, you haveto do this, and that it was very
(16:44):
almost judgmental, you know,but they would give directions
and the way they describe eachgarment, which is so important
today for us, when we look atfrom three-dimensional point of
view, it's a wonderful source ofinformation to, for example,
(17:05):
understand which fabrics aretrendy at a certain time and
which techniques are supposed tobe used by seamstresses in
order to get the right effect,are in a fashion scene that is
much more open to diversity when, I think, during the 1830s it
(17:31):
was extremely codified, so ifyou wanted to be perceived as
trendy, you really had to befollowing the pattern and, you
know, be very respectful of whatwas shared through these
magazines.
La Toilette de Psyché.
(17:51):
Only the wealthy people couldafford it.
It was not something that youwould find in middle class.
So it's interesting to see thatwe still have some that have
survived, and it's aninteresting collectible for the
fact that it was refined enoughto have a value as an artifact.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
So, like haute couture, like today, the amount
of people who can afford a realChanel suit are only a certain
exclusive.
They call them, I believe, thecouture club, or they're used to
the ladies who lunch in NewYork?
And this is reminiscent a littlebit of that.
(18:35):
It's a very exclusive group ofpeople, but it's also allowing
them to look at the clothes inthree dimensions, as you said,
to look at the back and thefront, because it's a beautiful
Ciché is a beautiful demurepaper doll and I imagine she
could be mounted on a she was akind of a stiff cardboard and on
(18:56):
a little stand, and then youcould actually look at the
fashions, discuss them Must havebeen an incredible talking
point for this group of people.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
I think so.
Also, of course, pichet wears awardrobe that is printed back
and front, so you really havethe possibility of looking at
all the details and looking ateach garment carefully.
It's the best explanations fora seamstress that want to get
that result.
I'm sure that there were localseamstresses that simply by
(19:30):
subscribing to a psyché theycould actually realize wonderful
garments that were probably notfrom the haute couturier, but
they would get as close aspossible.
And this was the point themagazine was saying you know,
this is the style, but if youare good enough you can make it
(19:50):
yourself and go and get thisvery luxury poncher de soie in a
certain shop and then you willbe able to make this.
So before or at the same timewith the craze for fashion
plates that were in most of theother magazines, la Toilette de
Psyché was actually pointingmore on the social side of it,
(20:16):
were kind of more advanced thanthe others, and I can guess that
it was a circle of people thathad this elusive kind of
consciousness.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
You know, when you were talking about Tzvi, it
reminded me of people copying.
For example, one of the greatmoments in fashion was the
wedding dress of Princess Diana.
She emerges from the carriageand everyone goes.
It's wrinkled, but after that,and apparently couturiers
(20:59):
everywhere were drawing patternsand by the time the wedding was
over you could get a pattern ofDiana's dress and people were
already sewing them.
So it's interesting to see thatthese concepts of, as you said,
influencers and she was atremendous fashion influencer go
on and on and on and arenothing new.
(21:21):
No, not at all.
By the middle of the 19thcentury, advances in print
technology meant that paper toys, books and board games could be
mass-produced.
Publishers like the McLaughlinBrothers in New York and Raphael
Took and Sons in London usedthe chromolithographic print
(21:42):
process to publish colourfulprints.
They could mass-produce them,making books and toys readily
available.
What type of paper dolls didthey produce, sami, with this
new technology?
Speaker 2 (21:55):
You are right.
It really is the force of thetechnical improvements that
became affordable for the mass,for the mass that helped in
(22:16):
divulgating paper dolls andprints for children, printed
books for children and all sortsof popular imagery to the
widest possible public.
What amazes me is that the rolethat publishers and lithography
printers gained at that timewas enormous.
And actually if you were anartist, an illustrator, the only
(22:38):
way to get visibility at thattime was to be in good terms
with a good lithographic company.
They had the power, they werethe ones that were behind the
entire machinery that broughtall of these items to the public
and they were the ones that hadthe money.
(23:01):
When I look back at the waypublishing worked let's say the
1850s, 60s, 70s really it wasthe printers who had the solid
background to be able to offer aservice that was making money.
And it's especially startingfrom the point where they were
(23:23):
mass producing that the costsstarted to go down, but starting
to also give an opportunity tothose companies to make more
money.
And of course, it's like whenyou go back in older times if
you were an artist in 1550, youhad to go through either the
(23:45):
church or a very wealthyaristocrat to get orders and for
illustrators in the mid-19thcentury you had to be in good
terms with a good printer andthis is why Raphael Tuck became
so popular in England andworldwide.
(24:06):
They had points where theywould distribute their printing
in France, in England, inGermany, and they were good in
choosing the best printers.
Most of Raphael Tuck'sproduction was printed in
Germany because the Germans werereally ahead of time.
(24:26):
Even compared to the printingtechniques that we had in France
, they were doing a better job.
The French were probably doingmore elusive, smaller quantities
on demand.
So you could.
The lithography was each colorhad to go through the print
phase, each color separately.
(24:47):
So of course if you wanted todo a very elusive product that
went 20 times into print, youcould, but it costed of course
much more.
When I look at what McLaughlinwas doing, most of McLaughlin's
paper dolls are actually quitebasic.
The quality of the printing isnot that great compared to what
(25:07):
the Germans did, but theirpurpose was to really reach out
to mass production that would beprofitable without spending too
much into the printing processwhen the Germans evidently,
technically they were moreadvanced and they were able to
make for a reasonable price verygood printing.
(25:29):
So really that generation,especially the 1870s, 1880s, is
the generation that has giventhe opportunity to quality of
(25:51):
the printing, for example, ofwhat we call the Victorian
chromolithographies, which areexquisite, especially when you
get the gilded details that givea wonderful depth to the images
.
And that quality, when we wantto print the same today, it's
(26:11):
flat, it's non-significantcompared to the originals.
And this is probably where theforce as collectibles today, the
force of paper dolls and scrapsthat have been printed with
that system of chromalutographyof the second half of the 19th
(26:32):
century, is really fantastic.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
In photography.
When we work with film, it hasmuch greater depth.
I mean, today digital reallydoes compete with film, but if
we look at a print, especiallyfrom a colour film, it really
has incredible depth.
Isn't it amazing to think thatif we looked at a Victorian
print of a paper doll and wetried to realise the same thing
(26:58):
with our modern printer, even areally good printer and really
good paper, it's still not goingto have that depth, it's still
not going to have that magic,because they applied the colors
in a different way.
It's extraordinary.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Indeed, In a way, we are not far from the supremacy
of the Dutch painters of theRenaissance, which the fact that
you would paint over and overand over and over on the same
image for so long gave such adepth to the image.
(27:37):
And it's like today.
We tend to be very conscious ofnature and try to use a
recycled paper to printnewspapers, which is fine to me.
But when you put on the samebalance, something that has been
(27:59):
printed on poor, recycled paperand something else that is more
I'm thinking, for example, ofthe fantastic Italian magazine
Franco Maria Ricci, FMR, whichfor years was printed in those
glossy, fantastic pictures thatyou could have you know you
(28:20):
would important to get your eyeused to noticing the differences
.
And some are very well printed,others are not so much, because
(28:44):
not all of them, even in thesystem of mass producing, not
all of the sheets were comingout in the best way.
It's like with normal dollssome are well painted, others
are not so well painted.
So it's really a matter ofeducating your eye to quality.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
So when we go to collect Victorian paper dolls
ourselves you know, inspired bythis podcast and your articles
we go to collect we need to getused to seeing the print quality
so that we're not buying areproduction, for example,
because someone can try andreproduce them.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
But really the quality and the depth of this
color is something we've got tostart to learn to look for of a
lady in America whose name wasMaureen Popp and she had the
best eye I ever met inimmediately spotting where the
quality was on a print.
She was a collector and dealer,but when it came to paper dolls
(30:01):
that were really her intimatepassion, she had the best eye I
ever met.
And the second lady that Iremember meeting and I was so
privileged because she was sogenerous and, you know, she
really was a mentor to me wasShirley Fisher.
And Shirley Fisher had agigantic quality collection of
early, early paper dolls and shegathered the most elusive
(30:25):
things.
I would go to these conventionsand she would always get the
best blue ribbons ever.
I mean, the things that she hadin her collection were out of
this world and she was excellentin perceiving when dolls were
complete.
I mean the documentation thatshe had at home and the
(30:46):
experience she had seen so muchthat she knew exactly when
something was wrong or missing.
And this is something that youdon't acquire, you know, like
this nipping in your hands.
So it's good to start educatingyour eye and you will see that
(31:07):
your collection will improvequickly.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
How do you store?
Because I'm thinking of some ofthe illustrations you have in
the magazine and they really doattest to the fact that there is
a difference in the richness ofprinting.
You can even see it in thepages of Antique Dog Collector
magazine that there's a richnessin the colors and the vibrancy.
But if somebody buys I noticedthat some when we were doing the
(31:33):
research some of the sheets,for example for La Poupee Model,
they're going to be quite big.
How do you store them andpreserve them?
Because they are quite delicate, they are paper.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Any of these wonderful Victorian prints paper
any of these wonderfulVictorian prints.
Well, I think this is a concernthat most paper doll collectors
have, you know, to find theright techniques to preserve
these paper fragile things.
One lady who was masterful inkeeping her collection was
(32:05):
Cynthia Musser.
Masterful in keeping hercollection was Cynthia Musser.
She had an extensive collectionand I remember her giving talks
and seminars about preservingthis.
So it's true that, of course,to use acid-free supports to
(32:27):
keep them safe and, of course,avoid bending and I'm the kind
of collector that likes to gothrough a collection I mean to
use it, to take it out and lookback, and not simply look at the
pictures on my computer.
You know I really need to havethe physical contact with the
(32:49):
object, but I admit that, ofcourse, over and over, it can,
if not ruin, but at least use ita little bit.
But I try to be careful in themovements.
What I think paper dollcollecting is fantastic is that
most of the time you have to beon a slow mode.
(33:11):
You don't want to be rushingwith paper.
It's a hobby where, like withpeople who get interested in
stamps, it's a quiet momentwhere you take your time, you
enjoy, you contemplate and thenthe pleasure comes.
It's a way a very calm kind ofhobby, yet very exciting to be
(33:36):
looking for the missing hat orfinding.
You know, when there are series, you're always a very addicting
kind of hobby.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
It is.
I find, with doll collecting,you are looking for, as you said
, the missing glove or the pairof shoes, but with this, what I
loved about it was that it isvery ephemeral, but there are so
many accessories.
It's not just the dress,sometimes the dolls have little
wiglets that go on, and then ahat and a bag, and the level of
(34:13):
detail is just fabulous.
And I have to say, if I had itI would very carefully want to
play with it.
The French children's magazineLa Poupe et Modèle, which was
launched in 1863 during this eraby Parisian businesswoman
Madame Lévelé Perron, waspublished monthly and each issue
(34:34):
included stories, plays,recipes, puzzle and supplements
of beautifully coloured paperdolls and accessories.
What type of paper dolls didthey feature, and do you have
many of them in your collection?
Were they ladies or children,or both?
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Actually, la Poupee Modèle is probably the magazine
that has been the mostflamboyant in publishing and
distributing paper dolls.
They started as early as 1863,as you mentioned and they first
realized a doll that, like theHuret and Romare dolls, were
(35:14):
actually representing a childbut who was wearing mostly mode
enfantine.
At the beginning Some had achildish proportion, I would say
the proportion of a 10-year-oldchild but very quickly it
evolved into a wide range ofcharacters that could go from
(35:39):
infant to elderly ladies.
So when you start collecting LaPoupee Modèle paper dolls it's
a never-ending process becausethey really printed hundreds of
them and they are of courseclearly documented, because if
(36:12):
you own the magazines theoriginal magazines there was
always a column that wasmentioning the annex.
So the annex were eitherprinted fabric or printed paper
and they were included in thesubscription for those who took
the full subscription and theycould be purchased separately at
the shop of Madame LavalléePerron or by special order.
But of course they were luxuryaddendum to the magazine itself
(36:35):
and the paper dolls were printedon a regular basis and not only
did they print the dolls butsometimes also the pieces of
furniture, the background, soyou can, out of the paper dolls
you can create a world and it's.
The number of printed cardboardsheets that La Poupe Nadelle has
(36:59):
distributed is really amazingand I've been deep into that for
a few decades now and I stillam far from being complete with
the collection.
You know, I especially rememberthose that I couldn't afford to
buy at the beginning and neversaw again.
But I do have a richdocumentation on that and it's a
(37:23):
topic that I think is justglorious.
I mean, for a collector if hehas time to dedicate to that,
it's very rewarding.
The quality of the printing,especially during the two
decades the 70s and 80s wasextraordinary.
They had these wonderful sheetsthat sometimes were folded in
(37:45):
half in order to fit inside theformat of the magazine.
And you open those pages andwith those vibrant colors and
those little girls that looklike a urée, they are really
very fun pieces to have.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
There's such a rich history of how people interacted
with these magazines and it'sthe same with the paper
furniture and the paper dollsand the joy and the enjoyment
and how we're enjoying it todayand also we're learning so much
about the history of thiswonderful magazine and how it
(38:25):
affected French children's lives.
As time went on, paper dollsalso took on a new role as
companies like Nestle used themto promote their products.
Paper dolls were also used fordirect marketing to parents and
children.
In 1867, Nestle launched theirNourishing Foods for Babies and
(38:48):
Children.
They understood the power ofadvertising and decided to give
away branded paper doll sheets.
In your recent article forAntique Doll Collector magazine,
it features an array of thesebeautifully illustrated sheets.
How many generations ofchildren went on to enjoy these
(39:08):
paper dolls distributed bycompanies?
What a wonderful thing.
It's a gift to the customers.
Speaker 2 (39:15):
It's true that advertising became a real
propulsing force for paper dollsbecause, especially at the turn
of the century, and I would saydown to, I would, the mid-1930s
, so before second world warstarted paper dolls were
(39:35):
perceived as one of the bestadvertising mediums, especially
if you wanted to reach out tofamilies.
So it was meant for children,but of course the main purpose
was to get the attentions of theadults who were buying the
products.
And Nestlé was of course verystrong in distributing paper
(40:00):
dolls on one side and scrapvignettes on the other, and
those both are highlycollectible today.
I remember being aware of theimportance of certain series,
for example of scraps in the1980s, and the prices that I had
(40:22):
to spend in order to get acomplete series or a paper doll
sheet by Nestle in the 80s was afraction of what they cost
today, when they are in pristinecondition, which means that the
world of collectors isrecognizing the value, the
historical, the aesthetical andI would say, patrimonial value
(40:48):
of these things today.
And it's true that certainprints from the Nestle series of
paper dolls are, for somethingthat was given away, amazing for
the quality sheets that includethe paper doll and their
garments and their pieces offurniture on the same sheet
(41:10):
which could be folded, and tofind them in those, I remember
one that has a deep blue, royalblue details with gilded details
.
My goodness, gilded details, mygoodness, that was.
So you feel the same excitementas looking at a very luxury
(41:35):
bijouterie on the Fifth Avenue,that sensation of luxury that
was yet affordable and availablefor the majority.
And Nestle was distributingtheir products worldwide.
So I happened, for example, tobuy a sheet of a Nestle paper
(41:57):
doll when I went on a tour inIndia a few years ago, and I
couldn't believe that I wouldfind this in India.
Wow, and there it was, you know.
So the exposure of theseartifacts is so wide that I
better understand why now, ascollectibles, these are so
(42:22):
valuable, because they remindthings to many populations and
they are really the reflectionof the popular culture.
Speaker 1 (42:32):
They really are.
That's extraordinary.
So it's become a worldwidehobby.
You can go to all corners ofthe earth and if they market it
there, you find the paper doll.
That's amazing.
Yes, now in the 20th century,paper dolls continued to be a
popular feature, especially inwomen's magazines like Women's
(42:52):
Day or Ladies Home Journal orMcCall's.
These magazines targeted womenwith homemaking tips, parenting
advice and recipes.
The American magazine PictorialReview featured Dolly Dingo,
illustrated by Grace Dayton.
Dolly reflected the changingroles girls could dream of, as
she not only dressed up for playand parties, but also became an
(43:16):
aviatrix or joined the RedCross and explored the world.
Dolly was intent on becomingthe new woman of the 1920s.
She was produced from 1913until 1933.
Do you think she inspired girlsto be more than just wives and
mothers?
Speaker 2 (43:35):
Well, my father was a very dedicated Grace Drayton
collector and he loved DollyDingle and got inspired by it.
And all that when I came to beaware of what Grace Drayton had
done with Dolly Dingle and gotinspired by it, and all of that
when I came to be aware of whatGrace Drayton had done with
Dolly Dingle, actually Irealized that the ingredients
(43:55):
that made Dolly Dingle such apopular character were the same
that we already had seen in 1905with the third-dimensional doll
of another magazine that wasfor children and it was Bluette
for Las Men de Suzette.
We had exactly the same pattern.
You know, you dress, you have awardrobe that changes depending
(44:17):
on if you travel to this countryor that country, or if you go
for a Sunday, in your Sundaybest, for traditional family
gathering, or if you go intosports.
Then you have all the series ofpossible different sports, from
the riding horse or skating,and so the reflection of what
(44:42):
people really did in theireveryday life is evident in the
sheets of Donny Dingle as wellas in the wardrobe of Bleuet.
So they really are therepresentation, through the
child form, of how people livedat that time and the kind of
education that they were getting.
(45:02):
Bleuet had several weddinggowns, so did Dolly Dingle, but
of course they are still in thechild proportion.
So they are preparing for whatwill come next.
And it was more evident in thatkind of creation of playthings
that the playthings were reallythe lives of the adults in the
(45:26):
process of educating children.
Speaker 1 (45:28):
And it's just the same play pattern which children
have, even with Barbie.
The doll will have an adventure, but it'll have a wedding.
It's all about imagination andwhat game the child wants to
play and what's inspiring them.
Speaker 2 (45:43):
Yes, and what's inspiring them.
Speaker 1 (45:45):
I remember when I was a child I used to have Barbies,
but I also had paper Barbies.
They came on cardboard withrichly colored clothes.
You cut everything out and itwas really interesting.
Did they make paper dolls ofother 20th century dolls too?
I mean, there's Shirley Templepaper dolls and they look like
the doll, but they're alsorelated to her films and they're
(46:07):
very interesting.
But did they make paper dollsabout other three-dimensional
dolls?
Speaker 2 (46:20):
Indeed, and actually this, I would say, is a niche.
Within the niche, there arecollectors that only are
interested in the dolls thatrepresent three-dimensional
dolls, Of course, are interestedin the dolls that represent
three-dimensional dolls.
Of course Barbie was the bestknown.
The variety of albums Barbiewas more than single sheets, it
was more albums that werepublished with Barbie and her
(46:40):
fashions from as early as the60s.
So Willie Mattel was veryself-conscious of the importance
of reaching out as apromotional campaign to children
through the paper dolls first,in order to get them tempted to
then get the three-dimensionalitems.
Paper dolls at that time, ofcourse, were, I would say, a
(47:03):
cheap way to satisfy a child.
So I put myself in the mind ofa mother who would have, let's
say, in 1961 or 62, a child whobadly wanted a Barbie and didn't
want to spend the amount ofmoney for a real one To get the
paper doll version of it wasgood enough to keep the child
(47:24):
quiet for a while and wait forChristmas to get the paper doll
version of it was good enough,you know, to keep the child
quiet for a while and wait,waiting for Christmas to get the
real thing that's so true.
It was the best way also to keepthe child interested in what he
liked without being completely.
(47:45):
You know, it was a projectionand Barbie was the most evident
derived product of athree-dimensional doll.
But the competition to Barbie.
Tressie, for example, existedas a paper doll and Mary Quant
existed as a paper doll, andthis is the generation, of
(48:06):
course, of the 1960s and soforth.
But in the past you mentionedShirley Temple, but they made
tons of paper dolls representingthe Dion quintuplets, and those
are something that has beengoing on between the two world
wars, especially in the 1930s.
(48:26):
And so they did with otherchild stars like Sonia Hennig or
in the past they already hadstarted with great celebrities
such as La Taglioni the dancerand other, sarah Bernard, who
was also made in the shape of apaper doll, and Charlie Chaplin,
(48:48):
who was adimensional derivedproducts.
But the art itself was a veryefficient way of advertising.
Speaker 1 (49:13):
It's also, as you said, something that jogged a
memory in me, that my motherwasn't going to buy me a Barbie,
but every week when I got myallowance, I could buy paper
dolls, and you could buy, as yousaid, an album of paper dolls,
and the wonderful thing is ittook you a while to cut them all
out and you could mix and matchdifferent ones, but the
(49:36):
illustrations were verybeautiful, very vibrant, and so
it was a different aspect ofyour play, and that's an
important thing, because itallows you to free your
imagination in a new directionthe importance for children to
act on their plaything itself.
Speaker 2 (50:08):
So you would get a page where you had a complete
outfit that was printed in colorand vibrant and all that.
And then the very same page wasprinted only in black and white
so that you could color ityourself and then create a
little bit.
And I've seen that evolvinginto the era where the paper
(50:35):
dolls stopped being cut outbecause in the meantime there
was a concern to give scissorsto children, to children which
I'm always kind of sorry for thekids who were not allowed to
use proper scissors to cut theirdolls out.
So the magnets arrived on themarket and you have the
(50:59):
generation in the late 70s, 80sand later where everything had
become magnetic, but of coursethe things were already.
You had to peel them off, butthere was not the pleasure of
cutting them out, which to mewas kind of, you know,
frustrating.
(51:19):
But after the magnetic ones yougot the generation of those
paper dolls that were actuallywith a glue so you can peel it
off, put it on the doll and putit back and reuse it again.
There is no magnet, but it doesstick.
I think that generation madethe game no longer exciting for
(51:45):
children because it was toostatic you were not doing much
of anything, that simply movingpiece to another, and probably
this is what killed the habit ofgiving paper dolls to children.
But I have the feeling thatwith, especially, the virtual
reality that are brought by ourcomputers, now children are back
(52:07):
.
They are not drawing them, butthey are creating paper dolls
through the applications thatthey have on their computer, and
this is something that I thinkis opening up to a new
generation of paper dollcollectors.
Speaker 1 (52:22):
It's very important that whole aspect, as you said,
of cutting out.
And so now maybe the child isinteracting with the computer
and seeing something grow on thescreen and once again they're
creating, taking chances,because you know sometimes you
cut them out and you'd make amistake and snip a tab or
something, and you know youlearn an awful lot by having to
(52:45):
engage in a physical process andthat's what paper dolls offer
us.
But I think also as collectors,I really see, and I've learned
so much from your articlesbecause I never thought, I
thought of them as part of mychildhood.
I recognized them as part of LaPoupee Model, but now I want to
(53:06):
become a dedicated paper dollcollector because I think that
this is an aspect of collectingthat is really really
fascinating, has so many socialimplications, and it seems that
paper dolls are a complement toany doll collection, whether you
(53:26):
collect antique or modern dolls.
And also, paper dolls have thebonus that they take up a lot
less room, so you can have moreof them.
Sammy, thank you so much forinspiring us to learn more about
the history of paper dolls andwe look forward to your articles
in Antique Doll Collectormagazine.
(53:46):
And we look forward to yourarticles in Antique Doll
Collector magazine.
It's a really amazing study andI can't wait to get started on
the adventure of paper dolls.
Speaker 2 (54:00):
Oh, welcome.
I'm so thrilled that throughyour podcast, this column will
get more people interested.
I always have been a dreamer ofstrong collectible bases.
I always have been a dreamer ofstrong collectible bases.
The emulation between us all isso important to keep having fun
.
Speaker 1 (54:14):
It's so important and also I can never emphasize how
much importance magazines hold.
I used to write for Dollmagazine when I was in Britain
and I look back on that as areally enjoyable experience and
I keep the issues and sometimeswhen I need to do research to go
back into something physical,we have this with, of course,
(54:37):
uftc Doll News, but also withthe Antique Doll Collector
magazine.
If you're able to keep yourvolumes, you have a wonderful
library and we're able to holdin our hands your article and
really inspect and look at thepictures.
But of course, antique DollCollector, they're very forward
(54:57):
thinking.
It's also available online.
So if you're like me and kind oftraveling around the world,
often I opt for an onlinesubscription and then download
it on my iPad and it does lookvery beautiful and I can also
zoom in and really look at.
So magazines are a veryimportant part of our study and
(55:19):
I'm delighted that you're doingthis new series on paper dolls.
It's a whole new adventure forcollectors to get involved in
and just to maybe add adimension of it to your own
collection would be a most well.
It's always a great adventureto be looking for something new
to add, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (55:39):
Yes, it is, and I also realize now that I've been
looking at private collectionsall over the world.
Simply as faire-valoir we sayin French Collectors who like to
display their dolls in cabinetsand so on, the combination of
(55:59):
three-dimensional dolls andpaper dolls in settings is
sometimes so thrilling, I meanyou really get like a diorama
with matching.
You know the doll, the paperdoll and the scraps.
It all comes together becausethey come from the same period,
(56:21):
the same aesthetics, and I wouldtend to say that the
expectation of the children of,I would say, the golden age from
second half of the 19th centurydown to World War II, that
period is extremely refinedaesthetically.
(56:45):
Things change after, I mean forthe best in certain cases.
But the fact that children wereeducated in having a good eye
for quality during that hundredyears about is really very
inspiring for us as collectorstoday to try to preserve those
(57:07):
achievements, because we nolonger seem to be producing
today things that are equivalentin quality for children.
Thank you so much for theexposure of this niche market.
Speaker 1 (57:20):
Sammy, thank you so much for sharing this wonderful
story with us, for your articles, articles for all your work,
for your lectures.
You travel the world tolecturing about dolls and, of
course, paper dolls, and it'sbeen a thrill and a delight to
talk to you today.
Thank you, sammy odin, forjoining us on the doll podcast.
Speaker 2 (57:41):
You are, sweetheart, right, thank you.
Speaker 1 (57:44):
Thank you so much, bye-bye.
The Doll Podcast is created byNiche Media Productions.
Our music is by KeltyConspiracy.
Copyright Louisa Maxwell 2024,.
All rights reserved.
To find out more about the DollPodcast, go to our website on
(58:11):
wwwdollpodcastcom.
You can also find us onFacebook and Instagram as the
Doll Podcast.
We look forward to welcomingyou next time, thank you.
Welcome to the Doll Podcast.
I'm your host, louisa Maxwell.
Paper dolls tell a unique story.
As we trace their history, wediscover that they have been
used as fashion plates, asadvertising, to promote the arts
and, of course, as toys to playwith.
(00:27):
My guest is author and lecturerSamy Odan.
Samy Odan served as thedirector of the Musée de la
Poupe, paris for 25 years.
During that time, he wasfortunate enough to curate
exhibitions with some of theworld's most beautiful and
precious dolls.
Sammy is the author of numerousbooks on dolls and shares his
(00:52):
expertise lecturing atconventions and exhibitions.
Sammy has a new featurededicated to paper dolls in the
American monthly magazineAntique Doll Collector Sammy
Audin.
Welcome to the Doll Podcast.
Hello, louisa, I'm so thrilledto be back.
(01:12):
Well, it's so wonderful to seeyou again and I am absolutely
fascinated by this topic.
I read your articles and it'sjust amazing what a huge world
it opens up when you begin toexplore paper dolls.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Yes, it is.
I've been privileged to be, youknow, playing paper dolls since
my childhood.
So here I am.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Sammy, reading your recent feature in Antique Doll
Collector reminded me of howmuch I enjoyed playing with
paper dolls as a child.
I was fascinated to learn howlong these dolls have been
produced and how they reflectedfamous personalities, fashion
and childhood throughout thecenturies.
So, to begin with, how did youstart collecting paper dolls?
Speaker 2 (02:09):
collecting paper dolls.
Well, I was fortunate becausemy father was a painter and I
was raised with two cousins, agirl and a boy, and we were
exposed to the existence ofpaper dolls since our very small
childhood.
I remember I was probably fouror five years old when we
already had paper dolls to playwith during our rainy days, so
(02:32):
this is something that reallyhas been constant throughout my
life.
My father drew paper dolls forme, which I kept, of course, and
I drew paper dolls myself.
Once I was a little more ableto use a pencil, and long before
I got interested in antiquedolls, I was already a paper
(02:54):
doll collector.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
I used to play with them as a child too.
They used to come in comicbooks that we used to get in
Ireland and also my mother'smagazines that we used to get in
Ireland and also my mother'smagazines, and you'd cut them
out and you'd play with mysisters, put on all the little
clothes and it was so delightfulthe colorful costumes and it
was very sympathetic with thingslike Cindy and various things I
(03:17):
was playing with at the time.
But I also felt that the paperdolls just like when you see
illustrations about Barbie orCindy or any 20th century doll
that the doll seems to come tolife in the illustration and I
also noticed this with the paperdolls.
There was a vibrancy in theexpression, in the way that
(03:38):
sometimes the clothes seem tohave a little bit of movement
because the doll was gesturing.
It was such fun.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Yes, it was, and I have the feeling that you know.
The fact that paper dolls havebeen constantly linked with
three-dimensional dolls made thedoll scene so much more
colorful and opening up waysthat you can, as a child, get to
(04:06):
enjoy those playthings.
And adults, of course, havebeen as much into them, since we
will discuss later thatinitially it was an adult
entertainment more than a childentertainment a child
(04:26):
entertainment.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
That's what fascinated me about your article
and when we were discussingthis for the podcast that paper
dolls really go back as far asthe first paper that was created
.
People were making figures andusing them to animate them with
fashion or with ideas.
One of the earliest games thatyou told me about is in the
mid-17th century, and that's thejeu de métamorphosis.
(04:49):
Well, perfect.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
In French we say it's jeu de métamorphose, but of
course it's metamorphosis withan English pronunciation.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
It's a little metamorphosis or a
transformation, and the gameshave little characters and they
have maybe interchangeable heads, bodies and feet, which can be
combined in different ways tocreate humorous or dramatic
changes.
What are some of the earlyexamples of this game and what
kind of characters did theyfeature?
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Well, the real source for Jeux de Métamorphose goes
really back to the 17th and 18thcentury, before even paper was
really used for it.
They had those wonderfulhand-painted portraits that were
most of the time onlyrepresenting a head, and then
(05:44):
you had the costumes that werehand-painted on mica overlays.
So there was no paper in it, itwas a transparent material that
was called mica and that youcould hand-paint, of course, on
the back of it and have aneffect that you would change in
(06:04):
the transformations that were sopopular under the Ancien Régime
.
You could pretend to be anyonethrough these guys.
So you had different socialstatus, appearances.
You could both be in gender,male, female.
(06:25):
In between.
It was very open and, you see,those portraits usually are
extremely good looking, but it'sthe way they are painted.
They can be turned into a maleor a female indiscriminately.
So it's interesting to see thatsociety at that time didn't
(06:49):
seem to have to struggle withgender as much as our present.
So Les Jeux de Métamorphose thatI've been admiring for so long,
because most of the majormuseums, public museums and
private museums have in theircollections sometimes we present
(07:09):
people from the courts theCourt of England, the Court of
France and they were probablypainted either in France or in
Holland and they were atelierswho were specializing in these
portraits with mica overlays.
And they were atelier orspecializing in these portraits
with mica overlays, and theywere kept into a very chic
(07:31):
little container that wasusually covered in leather and
you could add, layer after layer, all of these disguises.
So I think it was really asocial way, you know, of
pretending to be someone else.
And when you think the wayaristocracy used to gather for
(07:53):
bowls, most of the time theywould be invited to a disguised
bowl.
So this was really part of the.
You know you would getinspiration from the theater,
from the actuality, from novels,and I'm sure that most of us
(08:16):
today don't get the culturalreference that these disguises
refer to, but they must havebeen, you know, very easy to
understand and to read for thepeople from the 17th and 18th
century.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Ah, it's a little bit like, for example, when we hear
about the language of flowers.
Flowers used to have a specificmeaning, so these disguises had
a specific meaning and ofcourse that's very apt to
Halloween and masquerade and westart to imagine ourselves as
other people.
So in many respects it's such amodern concept.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
As you said, it moved outside gender and it was a
very fluid idea of exchange ofideas and fun.
Yes, indeed, I think we we ascollectors today to get the
chance to look at some of thesejeux de métamorphose.
Very few are representing afull figure, so most of the time
(09:17):
it's only portraits.
But the portraits have theselayers that really tell you a
lot about these guys.
It's also those inspired by theCommedia dell'Arte from Italy,
and all those concealingidentity was really part of the
social game of the time,especially for adults.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Oh, this is really good.
So would this be a game?
Because it's so interesting totry and think about how they
played.
This game would be this kind ofan after dinner game where
you'd all get together andthere'd be almost an innuendo,
or.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
I think so, and it was probably, you know,
something that we forgot aboutand we no longer are able to
read.
But since society was socodified, you could probably
send messages through simply,you know, showing your pictures.
If these portraits wererepresenting the sitter, then
(10:18):
you could pretend to be.
You know, send messages thatwere implicit.
But.
But to us today it's difficultto understand how it worked.
But it certainly did workbecause I've noticed Jeux de
Métamorphose in almost all ofthe major museums in London.
There is one exceptional in theIsabella Gardner Museum in
(10:41):
Boston In the Isabella GardnerMuseum in Boston.
There are several in Italianmuseums in the UK, some in
American major institutions,including the Met.
So, yes, the Jeux deMétamorphose are difficult to
find, but when one happens tofind one, it's really very
(11:04):
highly sought-after, collectible.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
They should pick that as a theme for the Met Ball and
have to reveal what it meanswhen you dress.
So what kind of character?
Speaker 2 (11:25):
So if you're a lady and you've got the beautiful
portrait, what kind ofcharacters could she transform
into?
Well, the one that I have in mycollection has, I would say,
50% are representing malecostumes, including Episcopal
characters.
So you have a monk, a priest, acardinal, and then you have
(11:46):
royalty, so some wearing crowns,others are very flamboyant, so
you have ball gowns, you havehigh aristocracy type of
garments and then you have veryat the opposite, you have very
simple garments representingpoor people or people that are
(12:08):
from the countryside.
You can tell that there was agame, especially with shepherds.
For example, In almost all ofthe jeux de métamorphose that
I've seen or had in my hands,there is always a shepherd
somewhere seen or had in myhands.
There is always a shepherdsomewhere.
So the game I'm thinking ofMarie Antoinette, who was so
(12:29):
thrilled to be always wearingshepherdess disguises.
And then you have many that arecertainly referring to the
opera.
So the heroes of the operas areconstant and we see that even
in the later period, during theRomantic era, with the paper
(12:52):
dolls that represent ballerinas,and the ballerinas, of course,
wear the garments that are thedisguises for each character
that they play from history ornovels and all of that.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
It's wonderful.
It's all linked up with poetry,with music of the time, marie
Antoinette, the way they allused to play, and they'd have
actual sheep, perfectly washedand groomed for Marie.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Antoinette to walk next to and this beautiful,
idealized, idyllic existence.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
And of course it's a movement in music and literature
.
And you bring all this to lifewhen you tell us about this
wonderful game.
It's amazing.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Well, it's true that, even though paper was not
involved in that stage, but itreally has been the grain that
bloomed into a hobby that becamefirst a fashion hobby for
adults and very quickly itturned into a plaything for
(13:59):
everyone, including childrenincluding children.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Well, that's true, because in 1834, in France, a
new magazine was publishedcalled La Toilette de Sicier,
nouveau Journal des Modes,sciences, Littérateurs et
Beaux-Arts, and that'stranslated as the Toilette, and
we'd say in English Psy, psyche,like a little bit like the
Greek, the New Journal ofFashion, science, literature and
Fine Arts.
That's quite a magazine.
(14:30):
They really covered everything.
Yes, exactly.
They had a revolutionary way ofshowcasing the latest fashions
using a paper doll called Ciché.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
Were these paper dolls like fashion magazines
today, showcasing the lateststyles magazine like this, the
same concept that was developedmuch later by Las Mendes Suzette
, for example.
The subscribers were kind ofbelonging to an elite, to a
group of those who had commoninterest.
(15:16):
And if you were into fashionand you would go into a shop and
say, you know, I would likethis and that, because this is
what is trendy, the people whowere publishing the magazine and
giving out all of these veryluxury paper dolls were
certainly, you know, theequivalent of the influencers
(15:37):
that we have today through theinternet.
So it was a way to really get acrowd of knowledgeable and fans
club to follow up and to createa trend.
I had the feeling that thecompanies, the couturiers, the
(15:59):
ateliers that were behind thescene for the Toilette de Psyché
magazine were actually theinfluencers of that time and it
worked, as I understand fromthem.
Unfortunately, I haven't spentenough time to go through the
magazines that are at theBibliothèque Nationale in Paris,
(16:22):
but going through a few, Inoticed that you could feel the
mentality of the editor was toyou know, we are among ourselves
, we are.
If you want to be in, you haveto do this, and that it was very
(16:44):
almost judgmental, you know,but they would give directions
and the way they describe eachgarment, which is so important
today for us, when we look atfrom three-dimensional point of
view, it's a wonderful source ofinformation to, for example,
(17:05):
understand which fabrics aretrendy at a certain time and
which techniques are supposed tobe used by seamstresses in
order to get the right effect,are in a fashion scene that is
much more open to diversity when, I think, during the 1830s it
(17:31):
was extremely codified, so ifyou wanted to be perceived as
trendy, you really had to befollowing the pattern and, you
know, be very respectful of whatwas shared through these
magazines.
La Toilette de Psyché.
(17:51):
Only the wealthy people couldafford it.
It was not something that youwould find in middle class.
So it's interesting to see thatwe still have some that have
survived, and it's aninteresting collectible for the
fact that it was refined enoughto have a value as an artifact.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
So, like haute couture, like today, the amount
of people who can afford a realChanel suit are only a certain
exclusive.
They call them, I believe, thecouture club, or they're used to
the ladies who lunch in NewYork?
And this is reminiscent a littlebit of that.
(18:35):
It's a very exclusive group ofpeople, but it's also allowing
them to look at the clothes inthree dimensions, as you said,
to look at the back and thefront, because it's a beautiful
Ciché is a beautiful demurepaper doll and I imagine she
could be mounted on a she was akind of a stiff cardboard and on
(18:56):
a little stand, and then youcould actually look at the
fashions, discuss them Must havebeen an incredible talking
point for this group of people.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
I think so.
Also, of course, pichet wears awardrobe that is printed back
and front, so you really havethe possibility of looking at
all the details and looking ateach garment carefully.
It's the best explanations fora seamstress that want to get
that result.
I'm sure that there were localseamstresses that simply by
(19:30):
subscribing to a psyché theycould actually realize wonderful
garments that were probably notfrom the haute couturier, but
they would get as close aspossible.
And this was the point themagazine was saying you know,
this is the style, but if youare good enough you can make it
(19:50):
yourself and go and get thisvery luxury poncher de soie in a
certain shop and then you willbe able to make this.
So before or at the same timewith the craze for fashion
plates that were in most of theother magazines, la Toilette de
Psyché was actually pointingmore on the social side of it,
(20:16):
were kind of more advanced thanthe others, and I can guess that
it was a circle of people thathad this elusive kind of
consciousness.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
You know, when you were talking about Tzvi, it
reminded me of people copying.
For example, one of the greatmoments in fashion was the
wedding dress of Princess Diana.
She emerges from the carriageand everyone goes.
It's wrinkled, but after that,and apparently couturiers
(20:59):
everywhere were drawing patternsand by the time the wedding was
over you could get a pattern ofDiana's dress and people were
already sewing them.
So it's interesting to see thatthese concepts of, as you said,
influencers and she was atremendous fashion influencer go
on and on and on and arenothing new.
(21:21):
No, not at all.
By the middle of the 19thcentury, advances in print
technology meant that paper toys, books and board games could be
mass-produced.
Publishers like the McLaughlinBrothers in New York and Raphael
Took and Sons in London usedthe chromolithographic print
(21:42):
process to publish colourfulprints.
They could mass-produce them,making books and toys readily
available.
What type of paper dolls didthey produce, sami, with this
new technology?
Speaker 2 (21:55):
You are right.
It really is the force of thetechnical improvements that
became affordable for the mass,for the mass that helped in
(22:16):
divulgating paper dolls andprints for children, printed
books for children and all sortsof popular imagery to the
widest possible public.
What amazes me is that the rolethat publishers and lithography
printers gained at that timewas enormous.
And actually if you were anartist, an illustrator, the only
(22:38):
way to get visibility at thattime was to be in good terms
with a good lithographic company.
They had the power, they werethe ones that were behind the
entire machinery that broughtall of these items to the public
and they were the ones that hadthe money.
(23:01):
When I look back at the waypublishing worked let's say the
1850s, 60s, 70s really it wasthe printers who had the solid
background to be able to offer aservice that was making money.
And it's especially startingfrom the point where they were
(23:23):
mass producing that the costsstarted to go down, but starting
to also give an opportunity tothose companies to make more
money.
And of course, it's like whenyou go back in older times if
you were an artist in 1550, youhad to go through either the
(23:45):
church or a very wealthyaristocrat to get orders and for
illustrators in the mid-19thcentury you had to be in good
terms with a good printer andthis is why Raphael Tuck became
so popular in England andworldwide.
(24:06):
They had points where theywould distribute their printing
in France, in England, inGermany, and they were good in
choosing the best printers.
Most of Raphael Tuck'sproduction was printed in
Germany because the Germans werereally ahead of time.
(24:26):
Even compared to the printingtechniques that we had in France
, they were doing a better job.
The French were probably doingmore elusive, smaller quantities
on demand.
So you could.
The lithography was each colorhad to go through the print
phase, each color separately.
(24:47):
So of course if you wanted todo a very elusive product that
went 20 times into print, youcould, but it costed of course
much more.
When I look at what McLaughlinwas doing, most of McLaughlin's
paper dolls are actually quitebasic.
The quality of the printing isnot that great compared to what
(25:07):
the Germans did, but theirpurpose was to really reach out
to mass production that would beprofitable without spending too
much into the printing processwhen the Germans evidently,
technically they were moreadvanced and they were able to
make for a reasonable price verygood printing.
(25:29):
So really that generation,especially the 1870s, 1880s, is
the generation that has giventhe opportunity to quality of
(25:51):
the printing, for example, ofwhat we call the Victorian
chromolithographies, which areexquisite, especially when you
get the gilded details that givea wonderful depth to the images
.
And that quality, when we wantto print the same today, it's
(26:11):
flat, it's non-significantcompared to the originals.
And this is probably where theforce as collectibles today, the
force of paper dolls and scrapsthat have been printed with
that system of chromalutographyof the second half of the 19th
(26:32):
century, is really fantastic.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
In photography.
When we work with film, it hasmuch greater depth.
I mean, today digital reallydoes compete with film, but if
we look at a print, especiallyfrom a colour film, it really
has incredible depth.
Isn't it amazing to think thatif we looked at a Victorian
print of a paper doll and wetried to realise the same thing
(26:58):
with our modern printer, even areally good printer and really
good paper, it's still not goingto have that depth, it's still
not going to have that magic,because they applied the colors
in a different way.
It's extraordinary.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Indeed, In a way, we are not far from the supremacy
of the Dutch painters of theRenaissance, which the fact that
you would paint over and overand over and over on the same
image for so long gave such adepth to the image.
(27:37):
And it's like today.
We tend to be very conscious ofnature and try to use a
recycled paper to printnewspapers, which is fine to me.
But when you put on the samebalance, something that has been
(27:59):
printed on poor, recycled paperand something else that is more
I'm thinking, for example, ofthe fantastic Italian magazine
Franco Maria Ricci, FMR, whichfor years was printed in those
glossy, fantastic pictures thatyou could have you know you
(28:20):
would important to get your eyeused to noticing the differences
.
And some are very well printed,others are not so much, because
(28:44):
not all of them, even in thesystem of mass producing, not
all of the sheets were comingout in the best way.
It's like with normal dollssome are well painted, others
are not so well painted.
So it's really a matter ofeducating your eye to quality.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
So when we go to collect Victorian paper dolls
ourselves you know, inspired bythis podcast and your articles
we go to collect we need to getused to seeing the print quality
so that we're not buying areproduction, for example,
because someone can try andreproduce them.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
But really the quality and the depth of this
color is something we've got tostart to learn to look for of a
lady in America whose name wasMaureen Popp and she had the
best eye I ever met inimmediately spotting where the
quality was on a print.
She was a collector and dealer,but when it came to paper dolls
(30:01):
that were really her intimatepassion, she had the best eye I
ever met.
And the second lady that Iremember meeting and I was so
privileged because she was sogenerous and, you know, she
really was a mentor to me wasShirley Fisher.
And Shirley Fisher had agigantic quality collection of
early, early paper dolls and shegathered the most elusive
(30:25):
things.
I would go to these conventionsand she would always get the
best blue ribbons ever.
I mean, the things that she hadin her collection were out of
this world and she was excellentin perceiving when dolls were
complete.
I mean the documentation thatshe had at home and the
(30:46):
experience she had seen so muchthat she knew exactly when
something was wrong or missing.
And this is something that youdon't acquire, you know, like
this nipping in your hands.
So it's good to start educatingyour eye and you will see that
(31:07):
your collection will improvequickly.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
How do you store?
Because I'm thinking of some ofthe illustrations you have in
the magazine and they really doattest to the fact that there is
a difference in the richness ofprinting.
You can even see it in thepages of Antique Dog Collector
magazine that there's a richnessin the colors and the vibrancy.
But if somebody buys I noticedthat some when we were doing the
(31:33):
research some of the sheets,for example for La Poupee Model,
they're going to be quite big.
How do you store them andpreserve them?
Because they are quite delicate, they are paper.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Any of these wonderful Victorian prints paper
any of these wonderfulVictorian prints.
Well, I think this is a concernthat most paper doll collectors
have, you know, to find theright techniques to preserve
these paper fragile things.
One lady who was masterful inkeeping her collection was
(32:05):
Cynthia Musser.
Masterful in keeping hercollection was Cynthia Musser.
She had an extensive collectionand I remember her giving talks
and seminars about preservingthis.
So it's true that, of course,to use acid-free supports to
(32:27):
keep them safe and, of course,avoid bending and I'm the kind
of collector that likes to gothrough a collection I mean to
use it, to take it out and lookback, and not simply look at the
pictures on my computer.
You know I really need to havethe physical contact with the
(32:49):
object, but I admit that, ofcourse, over and over, it can,
if not ruin, but at least use ita little bit.
But I try to be careful in themovements.
What I think paper dollcollecting is fantastic is that
most of the time you have to beon a slow mode.
(33:11):
You don't want to be rushingwith paper.
It's a hobby where, like withpeople who get interested in
stamps, it's a quiet momentwhere you take your time, you
enjoy, you contemplate and thenthe pleasure comes.
It's a way a very calm kind ofhobby, yet very exciting to be
(33:36):
looking for the missing hat orfinding.
You know, when there are series, you're always a very addicting
kind of hobby.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
It is.
I find, with doll collecting,you are looking for, as you said
, the missing glove or the pairof shoes, but with this, what I
loved about it was that it isvery ephemeral, but there are so
many accessories.
It's not just the dress,sometimes the dolls have little
wiglets that go on, and then ahat and a bag, and the level of
(34:13):
detail is just fabulous.
And I have to say, if I had itI would very carefully want to
play with it.
The French children's magazineLa Poupe et Modèle, which was
launched in 1863 during this eraby Parisian businesswoman
Madame Lévelé Perron, waspublished monthly and each issue
(34:34):
included stories, plays,recipes, puzzle and supplements
of beautifully coloured paperdolls and accessories.
What type of paper dolls didthey feature, and do you have
many of them in your collection?
Were they ladies or children,or both?
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Actually, la Poupee Modèle is probably the magazine
that has been the mostflamboyant in publishing and
distributing paper dolls.
They started as early as 1863,as you mentioned and they first
realized a doll that, like theHuret and Romare dolls, were
(35:14):
actually representing a childbut who was wearing mostly mode
enfantine.
At the beginning Some had achildish proportion, I would say
the proportion of a 10-year-oldchild but very quickly it
evolved into a wide range ofcharacters that could go from
(35:39):
infant to elderly ladies.
So when you start collecting LaPoupee Modèle paper dolls it's
a never-ending process becausethey really printed hundreds of
them and they are of courseclearly documented, because if
(36:12):
you own the magazines theoriginal magazines there was
always a column that wasmentioning the annex.
So the annex were eitherprinted fabric or printed paper
and they were included in thesubscription for those who took
the full subscription and theycould be purchased separately at
the shop of Madame LavalléePerron or by special order.
But of course they were luxuryaddendum to the magazine itself
(36:35):
and the paper dolls were printedon a regular basis and not only
did they print the dolls butsometimes also the pieces of
furniture, the background, soyou can, out of the paper dolls
you can create a world and it's.
The number of printed cardboardsheets that La Poupe Nadelle has
(36:59):
distributed is really amazingand I've been deep into that for
a few decades now and I stillam far from being complete with
the collection.
You know, I especially rememberthose that I couldn't afford to
buy at the beginning and neversaw again.
But I do have a richdocumentation on that and it's a
(37:23):
topic that I think is justglorious.
I mean, for a collector if hehas time to dedicate to that,
it's very rewarding.
The quality of the printing,especially during the two
decades the 70s and 80s wasextraordinary.
They had these wonderful sheetsthat sometimes were folded in
(37:45):
half in order to fit inside theformat of the magazine.
And you open those pages andwith those vibrant colors and
those little girls that looklike a urée, they are really
very fun pieces to have.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
There's such a rich history of how people interacted
with these magazines and it'sthe same with the paper
furniture and the paper dollsand the joy and the enjoyment
and how we're enjoying it todayand also we're learning so much
about the history of thiswonderful magazine and how it
(38:25):
affected French children's lives.
As time went on, paper dollsalso took on a new role as
companies like Nestle used themto promote their products.
Paper dolls were also used fordirect marketing to parents and
children.
In 1867, Nestle launched theirNourishing Foods for Babies and
(38:48):
Children.
They understood the power ofadvertising and decided to give
away branded paper doll sheets.
In your recent article forAntique Doll Collector magazine,
it features an array of thesebeautifully illustrated sheets.
How many generations ofchildren went on to enjoy these
(39:08):
paper dolls distributed bycompanies?
What a wonderful thing.
It's a gift to the customers.
Speaker 2 (39:15):
It's true that advertising became a real
propulsing force for paper dollsbecause, especially at the turn
of the century, and I would saydown to, I would, the mid-1930s
, so before second world warstarted paper dolls were
(39:35):
perceived as one of the bestadvertising mediums, especially
if you wanted to reach out tofamilies.
So it was meant for children,but of course the main purpose
was to get the attentions of theadults who were buying the
products.
And Nestlé was of course verystrong in distributing paper
(40:00):
dolls on one side and scrapvignettes on the other, and
those both are highlycollectible today.
I remember being aware of theimportance of certain series,
for example of scraps in the1980s, and the prices that I had
(40:22):
to spend in order to get acomplete series or a paper doll
sheet by Nestle in the 80s was afraction of what they cost
today, when they are in pristinecondition, which means that the
world of collectors isrecognizing the value, the
historical, the aesthetical andI would say, patrimonial value
(40:48):
of these things today.
And it's true that certainprints from the Nestle series of
paper dolls are, for somethingthat was given away, amazing for
the quality sheets that includethe paper doll and their
garments and their pieces offurniture on the same sheet
(41:10):
which could be folded, and tofind them in those, I remember
one that has a deep blue, royalblue details with gilded details
.
My goodness, gilded details, mygoodness, that was.
So you feel the same excitementas looking at a very luxury
(41:35):
bijouterie on the Fifth Avenue,that sensation of luxury that
was yet affordable and availablefor the majority.
And Nestle was distributingtheir products worldwide.
So I happened, for example, tobuy a sheet of a Nestle paper
(41:57):
doll when I went on a tour inIndia a few years ago, and I
couldn't believe that I wouldfind this in India.
Wow, and there it was, you know.
So the exposure of theseartifacts is so wide that I
better understand why now, ascollectibles, these are so
(42:22):
valuable, because they remindthings to many populations and
they are really the reflectionof the popular culture.
Speaker 1 (42:32):
They really are.
That's extraordinary.
So it's become a worldwidehobby.
You can go to all corners ofthe earth and if they market it
there, you find the paper doll.
That's amazing.
Yes, now in the 20th century,paper dolls continued to be a
popular feature, especially inwomen's magazines like Women's
(42:52):
Day or Ladies Home Journal orMcCall's.
These magazines targeted womenwith homemaking tips, parenting
advice and recipes.
The American magazine PictorialReview featured Dolly Dingo,
illustrated by Grace Dayton.
Dolly reflected the changingroles girls could dream of, as
she not only dressed up for playand parties, but also became an
(43:16):
aviatrix or joined the RedCross and explored the world.
Dolly was intent on becomingthe new woman of the 1920s.
She was produced from 1913until 1933.
Do you think she inspired girlsto be more than just wives and
mothers?
Speaker 2 (43:35):
Well, my father was a very dedicated Grace Drayton
collector and he loved DollyDingle and got inspired by it.
And all that when I came to beaware of what Grace Drayton had
done with Dolly Dingle and gotinspired by it, and all of that
when I came to be aware of whatGrace Drayton had done with
Dolly Dingle, actually Irealized that the ingredients
(43:55):
that made Dolly Dingle such apopular character were the same
that we already had seen in 1905with the third-dimensional doll
of another magazine that wasfor children and it was Bluette
for Las Men de Suzette.
We had exactly the same pattern.
You know, you dress, you have awardrobe that changes depending
(44:17):
on if you travel to this countryor that country, or if you go
for a Sunday, in your Sundaybest, for traditional family
gathering, or if you go intosports.
Then you have all the series ofpossible different sports, from
the riding horse or skating,and so the reflection of what
(44:42):
people really did in theireveryday life is evident in the
sheets of Donny Dingle as wellas in the wardrobe of Bleuet.
So they really are therepresentation, through the
child form, of how people livedat that time and the kind of
education that they were getting.
(45:02):
Bleuet had several weddinggowns, so did Dolly Dingle, but
of course they are still in thechild proportion.
So they are preparing for whatwill come next.
And it was more evident in thatkind of creation of playthings
that the playthings were reallythe lives of the adults in the
(45:26):
process of educating children.
Speaker 1 (45:28):
And it's just the same play pattern which children
have, even with Barbie.
The doll will have an adventure, but it'll have a wedding.
It's all about imagination andwhat game the child wants to
play and what's inspiring them.
Speaker 2 (45:43):
Yes, and what's inspiring them.
Speaker 1 (45:45):
I remember when I was a child I used to have Barbies,
but I also had paper Barbies.
They came on cardboard withrichly colored clothes.
You cut everything out and itwas really interesting.
Did they make paper dolls ofother 20th century dolls too?
I mean, there's Shirley Templepaper dolls and they look like
the doll, but they're alsorelated to her films and they're
(46:07):
very interesting.
But did they make paper dollsabout other three-dimensional
dolls?
Speaker 2 (46:20):
Indeed, and actually this, I would say, is a niche.
Within the niche, there arecollectors that only are
interested in the dolls thatrepresent three-dimensional
dolls, Of course, are interestedin the dolls that represent
three-dimensional dolls.
Of course Barbie was the bestknown.
The variety of albums Barbiewas more than single sheets, it
was more albums that werepublished with Barbie and her
(46:40):
fashions from as early as the60s.
So Willie Mattel was veryself-conscious of the importance
of reaching out as apromotional campaign to children
through the paper dolls first,in order to get them tempted to
then get the three-dimensionalitems.
Paper dolls at that time, ofcourse, were, I would say, a
(47:03):
cheap way to satisfy a child.
So I put myself in the mind ofa mother who would have, let's
say, in 1961 or 62, a child whobadly wanted a Barbie and didn't
want to spend the amount ofmoney for a real one To get the
paper doll version of it wasgood enough to keep the child
(47:24):
quiet for a while and wait forChristmas to get the paper doll
version of it was good enough,you know, to keep the child
quiet for a while and wait,waiting for Christmas to get the
real thing that's so true.
It was the best way also to keepthe child interested in what he
liked without being completely.
(47:45):
You know, it was a projectionand Barbie was the most evident
derived product of athree-dimensional doll.
But the competition to Barbie.
Tressie, for example, existedas a paper doll and Mary Quant
existed as a paper doll, andthis is the generation, of
(48:06):
course, of the 1960s and soforth.
But in the past you mentionedShirley Temple, but they made
tons of paper dolls representingthe Dion quintuplets, and those
are something that has beengoing on between the two world
wars, especially in the 1930s.
(48:26):
And so they did with otherchild stars like Sonia Hennig or
in the past they already hadstarted with great celebrities
such as La Taglioni the dancerand other, sarah Bernard, who
was also made in the shape of apaper doll, and Charlie Chaplin,
(48:48):
who was adimensional derivedproducts.
But the art itself was a veryefficient way of advertising.
Speaker 1 (49:13):
It's also, as you said, something that jogged a
memory in me, that my motherwasn't going to buy me a Barbie,
but every week when I got myallowance, I could buy paper
dolls, and you could buy, as yousaid, an album of paper dolls,
and the wonderful thing is ittook you a while to cut them all
out and you could mix and matchdifferent ones, but the
(49:36):
illustrations were verybeautiful, very vibrant, and so
it was a different aspect ofyour play, and that's an
important thing, because itallows you to free your
imagination in a new directionthe importance for children to
act on their plaything itself.
Speaker 2 (50:08):
So you would get a page where you had a complete
outfit that was printed in colorand vibrant and all that.
And then the very same page wasprinted only in black and white
so that you could color ityourself and then create a
little bit.
And I've seen that evolvinginto the era where the paper
(50:35):
dolls stopped being cut outbecause in the meantime there
was a concern to give scissorsto children, to children which
I'm always kind of sorry for thekids who were not allowed to
use proper scissors to cut theirdolls out.
So the magnets arrived on themarket and you have the
(50:59):
generation in the late 70s, 80sand later where everything had
become magnetic, but of coursethe things were already.
You had to peel them off, butthere was not the pleasure of
cutting them out, which to mewas kind of, you know,
frustrating.
(51:19):
But after the magnetic ones yougot the generation of those
paper dolls that were actuallywith a glue so you can peel it
off, put it on the doll and putit back and reuse it again.
There is no magnet, but it doesstick.
I think that generation madethe game no longer exciting for
(51:45):
children because it was toostatic you were not doing much
of anything, that simply movingpiece to another, and probably
this is what killed the habit ofgiving paper dolls to children.
But I have the feeling thatwith, especially, the virtual
reality that are brought by ourcomputers, now children are back
(52:07):
.
They are not drawing them, butthey are creating paper dolls
through the applications thatthey have on their computer, and
this is something that I thinkis opening up to a new
generation of paper dollcollectors.
Speaker 1 (52:22):
It's very important that whole aspect, as you said,
of cutting out.
And so now maybe the child isinteracting with the computer
and seeing something grow on thescreen and once again they're
creating, taking chances,because you know sometimes you
cut them out and you'd make amistake and snip a tab or
something, and you know youlearn an awful lot by having to
(52:45):
engage in a physical process andthat's what paper dolls offer
us.
But I think also as collectors,I really see, and I've learned
so much from your articlesbecause I never thought, I
thought of them as part of mychildhood.
I recognized them as part of LaPoupee Model, but now I want to
(53:06):
become a dedicated paper dollcollector because I think that
this is an aspect of collectingthat is really really
fascinating, has so many socialimplications, and it seems that
paper dolls are a complement toany doll collection, whether you
(53:26):
collect antique or modern dolls.
And also, paper dolls have thebonus that they take up a lot
less room, so you can have moreof them.
Sammy, thank you so much forinspiring us to learn more about
the history of paper dolls andwe look forward to your articles
in Antique Doll Collectormagazine.
(53:46):
And we look forward to yourarticles in Antique Doll
Collector magazine.
It's a really amazing study andI can't wait to get started on
the adventure of paper dolls.
Speaker 2 (54:00):
Oh, welcome.
I'm so thrilled that throughyour podcast, this column will
get more people interested.
I always have been a dreamer ofstrong collectible bases.
I always have been a dreamer ofstrong collectible bases.
The emulation between us all isso important to keep having fun
.
Speaker 1 (54:14):
It's so important and also I can never emphasize how
much importance magazines hold.
I used to write for Dollmagazine when I was in Britain
and I look back on that as areally enjoyable experience and
I keep the issues and sometimeswhen I need to do research to go
back into something physical,we have this with, of course,
(54:37):
uftc Doll News, but also withthe Antique Doll Collector
magazine.
If you're able to keep yourvolumes, you have a wonderful
library and we're able to holdin our hands your article and
really inspect and look at thepictures.
But of course, antique DollCollector, they're very forward
(54:57):
thinking.
It's also available online.
So if you're like me and kind oftraveling around the world,
often I opt for an onlinesubscription and then download
it on my iPad and it does lookvery beautiful and I can also
zoom in and really look at.
So magazines are a veryimportant part of our study and
(55:19):
I'm delighted that you're doingthis new series on paper dolls.
It's a whole new adventure forcollectors to get involved in
and just to maybe add adimension of it to your own
collection would be a most well.
It's always a great adventureto be looking for something new
to add, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (55:39):
Yes, it is, and I also realize now that I've been
looking at private collectionsall over the world.
Simply as faire-valoir we sayin French Collectors who like to
display their dolls in cabinetsand so on, the combination of
(55:59):
three-dimensional dolls andpaper dolls in settings is
sometimes so thrilling, I meanyou really get like a diorama
with matching.
You know the doll, the paperdoll and the scraps.
It all comes together becausethey come from the same period,
(56:21):
the same aesthetics, and I wouldtend to say that the
expectation of the children of,I would say, the golden age from
second half of the 19th centurydown to World War II, that
period is extremely refinedaesthetically.
(56:45):
Things change after, I mean forthe best in certain cases.
But the fact that children wereeducated in having a good eye
for quality during that hundredyears about is really very
inspiring for us as collectorstoday to try to preserve those
(57:07):
achievements, because we nolonger seem to be producing
today things that are equivalentin quality for children.
Thank you so much for theexposure of this niche market.
Speaker 1 (57:20):
Sammy, thank you so much for sharing this wonderful
story with us, for your articles, articles for all your work,
for your lectures.
You travel the world tolecturing about dolls and, of
course, paper dolls, and it'sbeen a thrill and a delight to
talk to you today.
Thank you, sammy odin, forjoining us on the doll podcast.
Speaker 2 (57:41):
You are, sweetheart, right, thank you.
Speaker 1 (57:44):
Thank you so much, bye-bye.
The Doll Podcast is created byNiche Media Productions.
Our music is by KeltyConspiracy.
Copyright Louisa Maxwell 2024,.
All rights reserved.
To find out more about the DollPodcast, go to our website on
(58:11):
wwwdollpodcastcom.
You can also find us onFacebook and Instagram as the
Doll Podcast.
We look forward to welcomingyou next time, thank you.
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