Have you ever struggled to know when to move forward and when to pause and trust God’s timing? That’s the heart of this conversation as we explore the balance between God’s sovereignty and our personal responsibility.
It’s a real tension—how much do we surrender, and how much do we strive? When is it time to let go and trust, and when is it time to push through with perseverance? We’re diving into that space where our efforts align with God’s direction—like a GPS that adjusts our route but still guides us to the destination.
We also talk about how unexpected opportunities can become part of God’s plan, even when we feel unqualified. Whether it’s stepping into a new career or a leadership role, we explore how God can lead us into places we never imagined—and how feelings of imposter syndrome can actually signal growth, not failure.
Ministry isn’t just for the church. We challenge the idea that serving God only happens on Sundays, showing how our workplaces and daily lives are often the front lines of our faith. We also look at how to tell the difference between God closing a door and our own fear getting in the way.
If you’re making tough decisions, dealing with delays, or doubting your path, this episode offers encouragement to keep trusting God while taking bold steps forward. It’s all about learning to live in the tension between God’s plan and our choices—with faith, courage, and confidence.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
I'm so excited for today's conversation.
It's truly the heartbeat behindthis entire podcast.
Sure is, and so many of usstruggle with this notion of how
much is surrender versus howmuch is striving.
How much should we let go andlet God entrust the process, or
where do we need more grit?
(00:30):
And we just have to double downand work harder and be the
pesky lady who's knocking at thedoor of the judge's chamber.
Right, that's right.
So yeah, it's this notion ofhow much is God's grace going to
show up versus what he isrequiring of us in grind.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
It's good.
I know it can be reallydifficult to figure out, right,
because it's not all hustle andit's not all let go and let God.
There actually is this sweetspot where.
God's sovereignty meets ourpersonal responsibility, kind of
this space where we know thathe is always in control but that
we have to step up and takeaction and still do our part
(01:12):
right.
And, man, when we get thatright, our whole lives expand in
the best possible way.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
I love that, and you touched on something you said
the words God's sovereignty andour responsibility.
Let's just dive into that justa little bit.
What is God's sovereignty?
It's the fact that he isultimately in control of all
things.
And so I love the scriptureProverbs 16, 9, where it says
(01:42):
that a man can make the plans.
He's going to make the plans ofhis heart, but it's the Lord
who establishes the steps.
And so what does this mean?
It means that there's thisreality that I have desires,
dreams, hopes in my heart, asyou do, as everyone does, and
that we have divine purpose,that God has put a purpose on us
(02:04):
before we were even fashionedin our mother's womb.
And God is in control, he'sgoing to see that purpose
through, and it's ourresponsibility to lean into Him
and to start to figure out whatthat can look like, and so we
can make plans.
Meaning, what is it going totake to fulfill that dream, that
(02:26):
hope, that desire?
I'm going to do A, b and C, andif those things don't work, I'm
going to do D, e and F.
Right, I'm going to keep goingand at the end of the day, when
something's fulfilled, when wereach a goal, when we see
success and we look in therearview mirror, we can see that
the plans we made were notlinear.
(02:48):
It's jagged, and it's becausethe Lord allows the path to veer
, so we can see Him at work withus, but His purposes will
continue to be established.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Yeah, you're hitting on a really important point when
you speak about how God haswritten the plan, and he has
right.
But it's easy for us tomisunderstand that a little bit,
I think, because just becausehe's written the story and he is
responsible for our plan, itdoesn't mean that the exact path
is already decided and that ourchoices don't matter, right?
(03:25):
It does mean that he's sosovereign and so wise and so far
ahead of us that he's actuallyalready accounted for every
choice that we will make.
But how quickly we actuallyreach the promise, how quickly
we step into our full potentialunder him, has a lot to do with
(03:45):
our choices and our actions,right?
I mean, it's like GPS you plugin your destination, you get
going on the road, you suddenlydecide you're going to take a
different route, or maybe youmiss a turn, right, and that's a
choice maybe that we made.
GPS is going to automaticallyrecalculate and eventually, we
(04:07):
will get to that destinationright, but now maybe we're
taking the long way.
You know we've had to reroute acouple of times.
We're in traffic, we hitdetours and now we have to stop
in a questionable gas stationbathroom right.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
God forbid, those bathrooms can be quite
questionable in nature.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
He tries to open doors and make it easy for us to
take the direct route, but ourchoices really?
Speaker 1 (04:33):
matter.
That's right.
He's not looking for spectators, he wants us to participate
with him.
Just like the GPS is in the car, the car doesn't just naturally
follow the GPS, it takes thedriver in the seat and it the
driver and the seat, and it'skind of like this I once heard
this analogy that God has Hisheavenly blueprints.
God has heavenly blueprintswhere he has a purpose and a
(04:55):
plan for our life.
It's predestined before we'reeven formed, as I said, and he,
in His love, in His grace andHis faithfulness and it's that
keyword, faithfulness that he'sgoing to see that purpose
through that, despite the bumpsand the falls that we may
(05:17):
experience on the journey toseeing the purpose fulfilled,
god is faithful to be with usevery step of the way.
He's not ever abandoning us orleaving us by ourselves.
So that's the heavenly blueprintand that's God's part, okay,
and he's going to see it tofulfillment.
Then there's the canvas of lifeand we all have a blank canvas
(05:40):
and, just like when you start acanvas and you want to draw a
picture or paint somethingbeautiful, you start to add
color to it, you put shapes init and it starts to become
filled out over time.
That's good and in the eye ofthe artist, the end result never
is quite like it was at thebeginning.
But the point is is the artisthas to start to put pen to the
(06:03):
canvas, marker to the canvas,paint to the canvas in order for
the canvas to be filled out.
So good.
And so when that canvas iscompletely filled out to
perfection and then it's becauseGod's establishing our steps,
it's perfectly aligned to theheavenly blueprint we actually
start to see God's purposesfulfilled in our lives.
Oh, that's good.
(06:23):
That's good.
It's that awkwardness that weall resist of the unknown space
between when God gives us thedesire of our heart and we have
the hope that we expect it,instant gratification, instant
fulfillment that it's going tobe fulfilled.
Tomorrow we all want the endstory of Joseph, right Joseph in
(06:46):
the Bible, in Genesis.
He got a prophecy that he wasgoing to be a leader over the
nations at the age of 17.
And his brothers were sojealous of that promise that
they threw him into slavery.
They literally took him andsold him into human slavery.
And it wouldn't be another 13years until the fulfillment of
(07:07):
that promise started to becometrue.
And so what was the journeybetween when God gave the
promise to the fulfillment?
Joseph had to go into slavery.
He was thrown into prison.
He was in pit after pit afterpit and at the end of the day,
that adversity, god used it allfor his purposes.
And then Joseph was put intoposition.
(07:28):
But I mean again, josephwouldn't have planned all those
adverse events to happen in hislife.
It would have been a perfectlyharmonious straight line between
desire given to desirefulfilled.
If man were doing it alone, butwith God he establishes his
(07:49):
purposes along the way to theultimate fulfillment of the
promise.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Yeah, when we lean too far on all God's sovereignty
and no personal responsibility,I think that's often when we
become a little bit too passive.
Right, it's that whole let goand let God bucket where we're
just waiting for Him to do ourpart.
And then sometimes we can findourselves blaming God for not
(08:14):
fulfilling the promise when wedidn't take action and step out
in faith ourselves right.
But then when we lean too faron our own personal
responsibility and we don't walkwith God, that's when it turns
into burnout, right.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Well, it's the notion too of delayed obedience,
meaning when we know God'scalled us to do something but,
for whatever the reason, we'renot doing it.
Maybe it's lack of confidence,it's the fear of success.
If I actually reach success,what does that actually mean for
me?
But whatever's delaying myobedience to take the step, or
(08:55):
what you said, outsourcing theresponsibility back to God, and
it's God's problem and I'm justa victim if he doesn't do it.
That delayed obedience isactually disobedience Agreed,
and it's important because whenwe are walking in disobedience
of the Lord, it's almost likehis hedge of protection and his
covering may not be fully intact, right, and so the
(09:22):
encouragement is if you hearfrom the Lord, how quickly can
you step into obedience?
Just doing what you know to do,regardless of if it's getting
the fruit that you so expect,but trusting God with the
outcome?
Speaker 2 (09:35):
I love it.
Philippians 2.13 says it is Godwho works in you to will and to
act in order to fulfill hisgood purpose.
So if we show up with effort,he's going to bring the outcome
right.
He's going to open the doors,he's going to put the right
people around us, he's going togive us the courage, he's going
to guide our steps.
You know all the things, but wejust need to team up with him
(09:56):
and do our part.
You know, Angelique, your storyis such a beautiful example of
this.
I know that you didn't chasetechnology.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
It beautiful example of this.
I know that you didn't chasetechnology.
It found you.
It's so true I barely couldturn on a computer back in my.
I find that very hard tobelieve.
It's hard to believe today.
You were a coder.
Come on, I know, but how did Ibecome a coder?
Is the question.
I literally could barely turnon a computer in my late teens
and I started in technology 18,19 years old.
(10:24):
And so how did this come to be?
I was actually in college tobecome a paralegal.
I graduated high school when Iwas 17.
I was on a two-year track to bea paralegal.
I'm in my last days of beingeducated in this phenomenal
field, where I started to do aninternship and guess what?
I found out that this field ofchoice.
(10:45):
I chose it.
It wasn't going to be for me.
I was going to maybe have aboring life if I chose to stay
in a paralegal.
From my perspective, I knowlots of paralegals are out there
and they love what they do, butit wasn't for me.
And at that point where I hadthis realization that I just
spent all this money on thiseducation, I did everything I
(11:05):
knew to do and I was like, oh mygosh, I can't imagine this for
the rest of my life.
I had this divine encounterwith this recruiter from
Manpower and she was literallysourcing bodies to do this
project all over the Chicagolandarea and it was basically I
call it idiot proof.
What is the dummies book?
(11:26):
The dummy books that they have?
Speaker 2 (11:27):
out there.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Yes, yes, Okay, they basically gave you an
instruction manual.
Follow this step by step bystep, Go into each location,
Turn up this technology, and itwas idiot-proof.
And so it was.
I was highly successful, but somuch.
So.
What started to happen is it wasclient server installs standing
(11:48):
up new technology for retailersout there Doesn't really matter
, but the point is I had anatural knack for the field of
technology.
So let's just say, the typicalperson could do one to two
installs per day.
I was doing like five per day.
I was crushing it and I'm notbragging in myself, it was just
(12:09):
something that just was lit onfire.
As soon as I started to do itand because I was set apart
amongst the crowd, all of asudden the spotlight's on me and
they moved me.
I was the only field rep out ofa two-week project to then say
hey, we want to offer you afull-time opportunity, we're
going to train you in the fieldof technology, we're going to
(12:29):
send you back to college so youcan get a comp sci degree and
literally they wrote my ticketinto the future.
Now I can't take credit for that.
That is a divine miracle.
I literally did not even knowhow to turn on a computer and
you laugh at me, but I promiseyou I didn't.
It's just hard to envision.
And then all of a sudden itjust came to me.
(12:50):
It's like when you getsupernatural downloads.
I'm telling you, God wasworking through my fingertips.
He was working through my bodybecause he was going to use my
career for so much more thanjust survival mode putting food
on the table, et cetera.
Right, he had a divine purposein calling me to technology and
(13:11):
there was nothing that was goingto thwart his plan, because
he's establishing my steps.
I had his divine wisdom, I hadfavor with him and with man.
I mean.
Again, out of a couple hundredpeople, I was the only one who
was offered a full-timeopportunity with the runway to
(13:34):
get a college education inCompSci Like absolutely God's
divine plan.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
What really stands out to me is you said yes even
when you were uncomfortable.
And then he surrounds you withthe people.
What really stands out to me isyou said yes even when you were
uncomfortable.
And then he surrounds you withthe people he trains on the job
more often than not.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
He does.
It's really the essence ofProverbs 3, 5 through 6.
It says One of my favorites, setyour path straight.
And the crazy thing is I wasnot following God back in those
days, okay, but he knew that hewas calling me forward and it
(14:15):
would take a couple years beforeI would even get to the point
where I would be like, oh, thisJesus, dude, like I need him in
my life.
But he's so sovereign that hewas there each step of the way,
giving me what I needed, feedingme what I needed, to set me up
for the fulfillment of what's tocome.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
It's just so, so good and do you feel like were you
comfortable or were youuncomfortable every time you
took a step and rose higher?
Speaker 1 (14:46):
You know it's funny In my early days.
You know, naivete is bliss.
What you don't know is just abeautiful thing.
I had no fear when I wasyounger.
I just did it boldly.
My glass was always half full,incredibly optimistic, and I
can't say that I did things withcourage or bravery because,
honestly, I didn't look at theworld through that lens.
(15:08):
I just did it.
It's just okay here I am todayshowing up on the scene and I'm
just going to do what's in frontof me, and it's that very
childlike way of living.
That that's how I started.
Now, as you gain more of theworld, you start to realize the
(15:29):
cost of losing it.
Sure, Okay.
So when I had nothing, I didn'teven think about it.
I was just like, well, this isexciting.
I guess I'm going to try outtechnology.
Oh, and look at thecompensation.
It pays pretty well.
Oh, look at the learningopportunity.
I'm never going to be bored.
I'm going to keep learning,learning, learning.
All I saw were the benefits andthe fruit and just the goodness
(15:50):
of it all.
Then, as you become accustomedto a lifestyle again, you gain
the things of this world.
Then you have more to lose, andthen I would say that's where,
for me, it was probably, I don'tknow less than a decade into my
career, but still a coupleyears in where I started to say,
(16:14):
what if I lost it?
What if I'm actually notqualified to be at the table?
I didn't find technology.
It found me.
And what if it was a mistakethat it found me?
And you know, I start showingup and you know, when you're in
technology specifically, you aresurrounded by brilliant minds.
(16:40):
Sure, I mean, I'm talking like,like technologists coming out
of MIT.
And then you got little old mefrom Podunk, Illinois, in the
middle of nowhere and I say thatwith love in my heart, but
literally I grew up half my lifein a little town with less than
2,000 people, and maybe ahandful of folks would go on and
(17:01):
get a higher education.
Yeah, a handful of folks wouldgo on and get a higher education
.
And so for me, specifically,when I found myself in New York
and I'm working at the pace ofNew York and with the pedigree
of New Yorkers like highlyeducated they come from a
different pedigree, if you will,and I say that in air quotes I
(17:22):
found myself starting to ask thequestion should I actually be
in the seat?
Do I deserve to be here?
Who's going to upset me?
Who's going to be the smarterone?
Who comes and displaces me?
And not only that if you workin technology as a woman nine
times out of 10, you're the onlyfemale at that table.
(17:43):
Yeah, and so eventually Istarted to find myself being
highly aware that I was a femaleat the table, and it's not
because my peer group or even myleadership that I worked under
made me feel that way.
It was an insecurity thatstarted to come up later,
(18:05):
naturally, that God wanted todeal with.
Just for the record, I amincredibly blessed because I've
always had incredible men asleaders and peers.
I've worked with some of thebest and the brightest and the
most caring.
So, again, I just want to saythis thing that I started to
(18:27):
feel we could call it impostersyndrome.
Sure, it was something that wasgoing on with me, based on
underlying issues that had to bedealt with, but it did come up.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
So interesting that it came so much later in life.
I listened to your story and Ihad no idea that.
I mean, you appear veryfearless, so it doesn't surprise
me to hear that you are, but Iwish that I knew what that felt
like, because my entire life ithas been feeling the fear and
doing it anyway.
(19:00):
It has been being extremelycourageous because my body would
betray me, hush back and then Iwould get so red and so
splotchy and inside my body theknots and shaking hands and the
whole thing and, frankly, stillto this day I have a bit of that
(19:21):
.
This is very uncomfortable forme, even if it doesn't look that
way.
But I have felt kind of mywhole life like tapped, called,
pushed, and I'm grateful thatI'm somebody who.
It's okay.
If I stumble, you know, and Ifail, I will lay my head on the
(19:43):
pillow at night and be moreproud that I tried right.
And then I lean into the Lordand I know that he's faithful
and that oftentimes he doesn'tnecessarily call the most
qualified right.
I even think in scripturedidn't Moses say Lord, I don't
speak well and I want to go?
(20:04):
I feel you, moses, or Gideon,who's like I'm the weakest in
the family David.
He was the little guy right, soI trust that he'll teach on the
job, and it even makes me thinkabout, I mean, what a blessing
our church is right.
Because they're famous for theirstatement we never leave you
(20:24):
where you are.
So you're that person hiding inthe back, you know.
So you're that person hiding inthe back.
They'll, they'll.
They see a little spark in you,you know.
And then and then you, theywere surrounded by people who
lift each other up and and findeach other's hidden gifts and
talents and encourage each other.
So I think of all these peoplewho have stepped up, scared as
(20:46):
well.
Right, and in six months, in ayear, in two years, I am blown
away by the transformation.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Yeah, you know.
I just want to click back toyou saying you did things scared
, you know, despite.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
I'm scared right now.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Yeah, you're really amazing.
Okay, tell us more about that,though.
Tell us more about what did itlook like when you were in
middle school, high school orpick your point in time, but
where you felt like leadershipwas grabbing a hold of you,
because it's easy to see youtoday again successful business
(21:30):
owner, entrepreneur, you're aleader of many multitudes, and
you do it with such grace andelegance and strength.
Where did that start?
Speaker 2 (21:43):
You know it's hard to say.
I feel like people just somehowalways assumed that I would be
the one to step up and I wouldthink in my mind, why me?
Don't they understand howwildly uncomfortable this is for
me and that I'm over here justtrying to figure things out
myself?
But oftentimes I cared moreabout other people's discomfort
(22:04):
than my own, and I was raised ina family I mean, we all are
kind of never quit.
No matter what you do in life,give it your best shot, no
matter how it plays out.
And I mean, of course you neverwant to look silly and no one
wants to fail.
But the most successful peoplein the world actually embrace
(22:27):
failure right, because it meansthat you're truly going for
things.
So I don't know.
I can just think back tostanding up in front of
elementary school class andacting out book reports, to
running for middle schoolpresident where I did a rap
literally over the entire PAsystem which I still remember to
(22:47):
this day.
We're going to hear it.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
We're going to hear it in the future.
Maybe one day, another day.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Yes, to finding myself to your point about
imposter syndrome just veryearly in my career, somehow at
these tables with thesebrilliant minds and people with
pedigrees that could run circlesaround mine and wondering why
I'm here with pedigrees thatcould run circles around mine
(23:14):
and wondering why I'm here, youknow, to finally having the
courage to start my own business.
I mean, the list goes on.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
But I just did it scared.
I love that and you know it canshow up.
You know fear can show up inmany different ways from what we
kind of touched on.
Do it scared even if, maybe, ifyou're feeling like an imposter
, like do you really deserve tobe at the table.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
It also can show up like this.
It reminds me of how I steppedinto my current CIO role, and so
I was at a company prior towhere I'm at now.
I was at a company and I hadbeen there for about six years
and I had really deep personalrelationships at that
(23:58):
organization.
It was a smaller techorganization, founder-led two
amazing founders, had, again,deep trust, deep connectivity
with them and we did some prettyamazing things, okay, so what
you could say is I was verycomfortable, okay, I had done a
lot of hard things with thatcompany, yeah, and but I had
(24:21):
deep trust and deep comfort andI found myself.
This is the summer of 2018.
Okay, I found myself in apersonal crisis where my son,
austin, who is today 29 yearsold, he had another issue.
In the last episode I kind oftalked about an episode that he
(24:44):
went through in 2011.
And I've said I've had a lifeof episodes with this kid and
young man now, but in 2018, hegot into trouble again and he
found himself in cardiac arrestin the Minneapolis airport.
And if anybody knows anythingabout cardiac arrest, it's not
an actual heart attack.
(25:05):
It's when your heart just stops, and his heart was stopped for
over 20 minutes and it's a crazy, miraculous story, but he was
clinically brain dead for threedays in the ICU.
Not a hope like not a hopebeing breathed into us.
It was literally just prepareto have your son, you know, be
(25:26):
taken home via casket, youknowket, back to North Carolina
after the three days.
Not going to get into all thedetails of that, but I say all
that to say.
Austin eventually came home andin the middle of this personal
crisis, I'm working for acompany that I loved, that I had
(25:47):
a tremendous amount of trustinside, of deep relationships.
These people were supporting methrough one of the biggest
crises that I would go throughright, I mean literally facing
the death of a child and theyloved and they cared for me
deeply, alisa.
And in the middle of it all,there was this divine
(26:07):
interruption in my career wherean opportunity for the role that
I'm in now came forward.
And in my plan it's like heckto the no, I'm not going to be
disloyal and leave this workfamily that just has been
supporting me and is continuingto support me through a personal
crisis.
(26:27):
They've done so much for meover the past six years, like
the loyalty thing.
And then there's just thecommon sense insurance, like
Austin, is in great need ofstable medical insurance.
So you're not going to leaveyour current role to go to
(26:49):
another one and just disruptmedical benefits, right?
Yeah, well, as the Lord wouldhave it.
Despite every kick and screamthat I had, it was very clear
that he was calling me to a newplace and that place was going
to say do you trust me?
Going back to Proverbs 3, 5through 6, lean not on your own
(27:11):
understanding, doesn't matterabout the medical benefits,
doesn't matter about the loyaltyto the human beings.
Are you actually going to trustme and are you going to be
faithful to me?
Are you going to be loyal to meBecause I'm calling you higher
and I'm widening yourresponsibility?
And I would say yes.
And seven days later, after Istarted I'll never forget I
(27:32):
started Avid Exchange, where I'mat now, october 22, 2018.
And one week later, austinwould go in for open heart
surgery at Duke University.
It can't be more turbulent thanthat.
And that decision again wasjust a faithful decision that I
made, trusting the Lord, and itwould bear an incredible amount
(27:56):
of fruit over the years to comethat I'm seeing right now.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
But yeah, we know that God works all things out
for the good of those that loveHim and are called according to
His purposes.
Yes, he does Seek first Hiskingdom that love him and are
called according to his purposes.
Yes, he does Seek first hiskingdom.
Amen, and it will be done untoyou.
That's right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Well, let's talk a little bit about imposter
syndrome.
You brought that up a littlebit earlier.
I think we all struggle with it.
We've sat at tables withbrilliant people.
You said that you started tofeel that a little bit later in
life.
You started out life fearless,just stepped up hey, what are we
here to do?
And then later, the more youhad you felt, the more you had
(28:40):
to lose.
And so you started to questionyourself a little bit there.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
Yeah, and I think the higher God calls you, you're
being elevated with people whohave been elevated ahead of you.
Great point, right, great point.
And so when I first started mycareer, it would be you know I'm
going to say threat.
I never felt threatened by them.
(29:04):
I was never in competition withpeer groups, but I was always
in high regard of their talentand their backgrounds and I
always valued their path morethan my own path, okay, and so I
wasn't threatened by them, butI had more revere in regard for
(29:24):
them over my own personaljourney, and I have to continue
to be aware of that even stillto this day.
So it started with softwareengineers coming out of MIT, and
now it's business leaders withMBAs from Harvard University or
the founder of some of theworld's greatest financial
(29:46):
institutions financialinstitutions, or some of the
greatest investors on this sideof heaven, meaning they've
invested in the likes of Fitbit,linkedin, and we've seen the
success of these companies.
I mean, god has put in mycircle an incredible network of
(30:08):
accomplished people and I canlook at their paths and going
how did I get here?
Again and again, should I behere?
And I don't live in that place.
You can't live in that place.
But when it comes up, I ask why?
Why is this coming up?
(30:32):
What is still not dealt with,that needs to be dealt with?
That's a good question With theLord.
And then how do I work throughit?
Because the next question is ifyou don't deal with it, you're
putting a ceiling on yourself.
Yes, so people say you hit theglass ceiling if you will, but
(30:52):
they don't talk about it's aself-imposed ceiling.
Oh yeah, we talk about it, thatit's put on people.
But actually my experience hasbeen I put it on myself
Absolutely, and so I'm a strongbeliever if you're not growing,
you're dying.
If you're not pushing throughthe current ceiling that you are
(31:15):
putting yourself in right now,that's the highest you're ever
going to go.
But God calls us to keep goinghigher and higher and higher
until we meet Him.
Why?
Because the stakes are high,because he's calling us higher
so we can have greater influence, so we can disciple the nations
.
So good, so oftentimes we putministry in a box meaning, oh,
(31:38):
we do ministry, meaning we gomake disciples of the nations
for Jesus, in the church or onthe mission field, on a mission
trip in the name of Jesus, thework that we do, but we kind of
divide it from the work that wedo for location right when we
(31:58):
actually are compensated, butthat is where we spend the
majority of our time.
So for me, my ministry, firstand foremost is my family.
Second is my marketplace role,all the people that I lead and
shepherd every day.
It's my direct accountability tocare and love for those people
(32:19):
and to shepherd them.
And then it goes to the broadercommunity and so it's really
getting back to impostersyndrome.
It's so critical to lean in andjust ask yourself be brave
enough to say where, where, notif where, does imposter syndrome
(32:39):
show up?
Yeah, Because the greatestpeople in the Bible going back
to your point, Moses, David, etcetera, they all struggled with
imposter syndrome.
Yeah, so to think that we don't, we're not being honest with
ourselves.
So where is it showing up?
That's good.
And how do I deal with it so Ican continue to grow my
(32:59):
influence for His glory, Not myown glory, but His glory so good
.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
And I feel like the closer we walk with Christ right
and the more consistently weseek a relationship with Him,
the more we understand ouridentity in Him, and then he
becomes the only one thatmatters.
So you can ask yourself, youknow, is what I'm doing in
alignment with the Lord, whetherI'm doing it well or not?
(33:28):
But imposter syndrome, it's sucha common human emotion that we
all struggle with and feel, butI even have some notes here of
just some thought leadership toshare with other people.
That has helped me really flipthe script on this.
Oh, I love it and I'd love foryour thoughts on this.
(33:53):
I love it and I'd love for yourthoughts.
So the first thing is, considerthat imposter syndrome isn't
always about inadequacy, right,that the fear that you're
feeling isn't necessarily thatyou aren't worthy, but that it's
simply a sign that you'regetting ready to level up, right
, that you're getting ready torise higher, because we talked
about this a little bit earlier.
You've acknowledged that aswell.
When you're taking that nextstep, typically it's going to be
(34:16):
uncomfortable, because, if youthink about it, when you're
playing small and you're juststaying in your comfort zone,
you don't feel imposter syndrome, right.
So that whole ceiling you spokeabout, you're going to stay
right there.
Right, it has to getuncomfortable in order for you
to take the next step.
And then I would also sharethat.
(34:37):
Secondly, being surrounded bygreatness doesn't mean that
you're less than I.
Think that there's another realopportunity for us to reframe
that one too.
And when you start tounderstand and I think we spoke
about this earlier too, the waythat God works, that he opens
doors and he surrounds you withthe right people, if you think
(34:59):
about it more not as comparison,but I have this opportunity to
learn from these people who havebeen there, done that or have
something to teach me, andthere's a reason that God put me
in this room.
You look at it differently,right?
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Have you had any of those moments?
You know absolutely 100%.
And I would also say anotherquestion is what do the people
around you have to gain frombeing in your presence?
And so I go back to it used tobe the mindset of again.
(35:41):
I'm in a meeting with thefounder of one of the biggest
financial institutions in theglobe and I'd be like in awe,
yeah.
And then I would ask myself thequestion I wonder if he knows
Jesus.
That's good.
I wonder what his upbringingwas.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
And what adversities has he lived through.
So, taking the role and theaccomplishment of the person out
, whatever the world equatessuccess to for that person, take
that out and look at them as aperson so good and say what can
I give them that is valuable tothem?
(36:25):
Yeah, and it's not about evenwhat I can give them.
It is what does God want to doin and through me?
So why am I at this table rightnow?
It's not.
Should I be.
I'm already here.
God has put me here, and sowhat's His purpose in it?
So I'm going to learn from themand I'm going to soak it all in
and keep growing and not bethreatened by it.
(36:47):
But also, what do I need toshare back?
Speaker 2 (36:51):
out so good.
Just that heart posture isshining his light right, amen,
amen.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
One of my greatest mentors and he is absolutely
phenomenal has the pedigree, theworld success, all the things
right, and he has a heartposture.
He's one of the most humblepeople I've ever come into
contact with and I've beendeeply mentored by him and he
has publicly shared that he hasbattled depression over the
(37:22):
years and even in him sharingthat if I would have had First
of all, if I would have justheld him on a pedestal and never
connected with him in a veryhumane way, I wouldn't have
really been able to connect tothe fact that he had an issue
with depression.
And then I can look at peoplethat I care about and I love
(37:45):
that have also had struggleswith depression and start to
make that connection.
So I can learn from my mentornot just how to make me
successful in my career, butteach me more about your
personal struggle withdepression, because that wisdom
and that personal journey of himcan help me with those that I
(38:08):
love.
I love that.
And so just trying to draw acouple different parallelisms to
if we are truly, if we say thatthe marketplace is our ministry
call and we're there to lovepeople, then it's not just about
getting ahead and breakingthrough glass ceilings.
It gets to the why behind, whywe're there to begin with and if
(38:30):
we're in service to His kingdompurposes.
The ceilings are going to bebusted wide open because the
heart posture to what you said,god's just going to create
avenues for us to doimmeasurably more than we can
ask, think or imagine.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
That's right, it's cool, yeah, and the last thing
that I'll say about impostersyndrome is the enemy wants you
there, right?
I mean, we have to rememberthat, because if you stay in
that place, then you disqualifyyourself for him.
He doesn't even have to do anywork.
Amen.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
It's not about being perfect either.
That's so good.
It's not about being perfectwhere we're at.
It's about the position that wehold.
We are sons and daughters ofthe King.
Yes, and that holds position.
Yeah.
And when we know we are rightlypositioned, then all the things
(39:24):
, the weapons that the enemyuses against us, are going to
come down very, very quickly.
I go back to 2 Timothy 1.7, forthe spirit God gave us does not
make us timid, but gives uspower, love and self-discipline.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
I love that.
Speaking of timid, one morething the man in the arena.
You know that quote, right,theodore Roosevelt.
One more thing yes, the man inthe arena.
Yeah, you know that quote,right, theodore Roosevelt.
One of my absolute favorites.
I got to read it just as areminder for folks who've never
heard it it's not the critic whocounts, not the one who points
out how the strong man stumblesor where the doer of deeds could
(40:03):
have done them better.
The credit belongs to the onewho is actually in the arena,
whose face is marred by dust andsweat and blood, who falls
short, who stumbles again andagain but who keeps striving
valiantly.
I mean I love that because,again, it's about obeying right,
(40:24):
it's showing up, it's trustingthat he'll equip us through the
process and being proud that,even if you stumble and fall,
that you just tried.
I mean, keep in mind, thepeople who are the loudest are
the ones who won't be courageousenough to even try, right.
And they're the ones with allthe judgment and the opinion.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Yeah, amen.
I think that's very well said.
And I think I want to pivotback to ministry in the
marketplace for a minute,because here we are, you know,
we have a president.
What you just quoted basicallykeeps striving, keeps striving,
keeps striving.
And here we are, two women inthe marketplace.
So what does it look like forus?
(41:08):
And I go back to what is yourmission field.
Do we just show up to collect apaycheck and it's almost like
the Monday dread comes upon us?
Or do we think about Monday asa Sunday that we're taking God
(41:31):
out of the pulpit, we're takingHim out of sermons and we're
actually living it out?
God says in Luke that those whohear the Word of God and who
put it into practice, those arethe ones who are going to
inherit the kingdom.
So it's not about just going tochurch on Sundays and doing the
rituals of faith, it's aboutputting it, doing the rituals of
faith, it's about putting itinto practice.
And so for me, if I aspire tocontinue to impact nations, so
(41:58):
in my heart, god has put nationson my heart.
Now, do I feel like that'shappening right now?
Maybe, maybe this podcast isgoing to the ends of the earth,
right, but the fact of thematter is, god put desires in my
heart and I'm waiting, justlike Joseph, for certain things
to be fulfilled.
And he calls me to be a goodsteward where I'm at, be
(42:22):
thankful for small beginnings.
Be thankful that I got themanual back in the 90s to go do
client server installs and torun around Chicago for two weeks
, because that small beginningas a temp worker literally was a
gate that God used to open tothe rest of my career.
(42:43):
And even where I'm at right now, I believe that there's bigger
gates that are going to beopening.
And so, seeing the people howdo you be faithful where you're
at?
By seeing the people.
People don't care what you haveto say until they know that you
care that famous quote right.
(43:04):
How do people know that I careabout them?
And I can tell you, through myjourney and my career, I've had
people turn me into HR becauseI'm very open with my faith.
It's a great story Not to getinto that today, but the point
is that happened.
(43:26):
Did I get angry?
Did I get bitter?
Actually, no, I was maybe alittle hurt when it first
happened.
It's happened numerous timesnow, so not that I'm used to it.
You never get used to that sortof thing, but I am confident in
the Lord and what I stand for.
And what do I mean by that?
My truth is my truth and justlike we say that we want people
(43:53):
to be able to explore theirfaith in a safe space with us on
this podcast, I take that sameapproach in the marketplace,
where I don't expect everyonewho works for me to fall at the
feet of Jesus tomorrow.
I hope they do.
Sure, right, but that's betweenthem and God, that's right.
God is the one who's in thebusiness of salvation, but what
I can do is love them wherethey're at.
(44:15):
And just because I haveteammates whose moral compass
may not align perfectly to mine,maybe their values and
worldview don't align perfectlyto mine, I can still love them
where they're at.
Yeah, and what does that mean?
I can see what God's put inthem.
Everyone is a unique treasure,yeah, and I can nurture it.
(44:35):
I can call it forward and I canbe the best leader I can be to
that person in the season thatGod's given me leadership
opportunity with them.
Yeah, right, so what does thatlook like?
Speaker 2 (44:47):
for you, I think ministry is every moment of
every day right.
So what does that look like?
For you, I think, ministry isevery moment of every day right.
I mean literally every word,every interaction, every
response is an opportunity.
I think it's interesting.
We were talking about thisrecently in one of our life
groups where we're reading abook actually it's over there
called Shape.
I highly recommend this book.
(45:07):
It's amazing.
It's about finding andfulfilling your gifts and
talents and true purpose underGod.
But sometimes it can get veryoverwhelming when you care about
sharing the gospel and making adifference in people's lives
and really serving the Lord ineverything that you do, we get
(45:28):
so twisted that we have to bedoing something profound, when
sometimes, maybe your role wasone interaction with somebody
that literally changed thetrajectory of their life, just
based on a conversation that youhad right, or the way that you,
(45:49):
you know, reflected thegoodness of Jesus, you know, an
encouraging word, a prayer, anyof those things.
So I just I feel like it'shappening every moment of every
day.
And then, yes to your point,sometimes things happen for
people immediately as a resultof that that you interact with,
(46:09):
and other times it takes a whilefor them to come around.
I mean even—we won't get intoall those stories, but I know
even in your stories it startedout with I'm going to HR on
Angelique ended up with somebodywalking very close to the Lord
today.
So it's incredible.
And I would also add that it'salso even ministry is happening
(46:33):
behind closed doors, right?
It's all the things you'redoing with Him when no one's
looking.
Speaker 1 (46:39):
That's right.
Our heart's formed in thesecret place and so from the
heart is the wellspring of life.
So if there's good stuff in it,it's going to naturally flow
out.
But if you don't have thatsacred time with the Lord, your
heart's not going to bepositioned well to do ministry,
because you can't pour out froman empty cup.
And the other thing that justreally hits me is that our job
(47:04):
is to sow into water.
So we plow up the hard ground,we sow the seeds and we water it
.
And that just means we plantseeds of truth, we tell truth,
we water by continuing to loveand to care.
And God is the God of theharvest, he's the God that makes
it grow, makes the fruit come.
We may never see the seedsbloom, the great point.
(47:28):
And we just need to know thatif we're obedient, where God has
us, he's in the business ofmaking the fruit come.
And the thing that Jesus said,his departing words to his
disciples, that he has giveneach of us his authority, what
he did on earth, he said we'regoing to do immeasurably more
(47:50):
than what he did.
And he didn't say sit, hedidn't say just pray, he said go
.
Yes, that is action.
Again, faith without action isdead, yeah.
So again, it's not aboutsitting, it's do what we need to
do from a place of rest.
(48:11):
Okay, he says take care of yourmind, your body, your soul and
your spirit.
Take care of you so you canhave overflow to others and when
you're coming from that placeof overflow you're not going to
burn out.
But he does not say sit idle.
He says go and make disciplesof the nations.
It's a command, it is.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
It's so good Faith isn't passive, that's for sure,
amen.
So what happens when we stepout and things don't go the way
that we planned?
I think it's an easy place toget twisted.
To know the difference betweendivine resistance and personal
resistance, right, yes, whenyou're?
Speaker 1 (48:48):
walking it out?
Yeah, 100%.
And so there is divineresistance and personal
resistance, and I think thatwe've covered a lot of the
personal resistance when we areoperating from a place of fear,
and there's this old saying fearstands for false evidence
(49:10):
appearing real.
I love that False evidenceappearing real.
So when we are believing a lieand we're just comfortable in
our rest, meaning our inaction,then we're going to create our
own resistance.
Right, we're actually.
It's a self-fulfilling prophecy, you know, you are what you
(49:31):
think, which we're going to getinto in the next episode.
But it's so critically importantto understand where the
resistance is coming from, andit first takes inspection of
your personal mind and yourheart.
What is happening If you'retaking all the steps that you
know to take and you're stillfeeling like it's just not going
(49:56):
your way?
That could be divine resistance.
So what do I mean by that?
This podcast, getting it offthe ground?
This is a real life workingexample.
I can't tell you the sheernumber of what I would call
attacks on me personally and myfamily, and then the volume of
(50:24):
work that's been turned up inthe last two quarters.
The day we declared that wewere going to do a podcast, my
work turned up and then justbumps and bruises with my family
got amplified, and then thatall comes on me personally.
(50:45):
That all comes on me personallyand it's easy to say, ooh, yes,
god, I'm going to do it, butI'm going to delay because I
need to get through all thisstuff first.
And what I have found in mylife is the more I say, well,
did I hear you?
And I go back and look at myjournals and I go back into
prayer and I'm like, no, I heardyou.
(51:10):
You said do the podcast withElisa and do it now.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (51:12):
And he really did, and he really did and yeah, we
heard.
Speaker 1 (51:16):
That's a whole other story.
Speaker 2 (51:17):
Yes, that's a whole other story.
Speaker 1 (51:18):
But we heard loud and clear.
And so what can we do?
We have to be flexible, we haveto be proactive and communicate
, be vulnerable, communicatewhat's going on, but still work,
create a plan and trust thatGod's going to establish the
steps behind us.
And the plan has to berealistic.
At first me go-getter I'm likewe are going to hire Hellwater,
(51:41):
we're going to launch thispodcast in April, and Lisa,
you're like, oh, that's kind ofpushing it.
And I'm like, nope, we're goingto do it.
And then you've got to getrealistic and you've got to make
your plan and can it fit?
And then the bumps and thebruises that come along the way,
god will divinely work in it.
But here we are.
So divine resistance it can worktwofold.
(52:03):
God could be slowing you downso you can lean in to what
matters most, not only justleaning into what matters most.
There's lessen in theresistance Meaning.
What did he need me to learn inthe last six months?
That is actually going to helpme be even a better steward of
(52:25):
what he's given me for now.
Do you know what I mean?
Yeah, and so there's alwayspurpose in the resistance when
it's coming from God or if he'sallowing the weapon formed
against us.
He's not going to allow it toprevail, but there is this truth
that he's allowing theturbulence.
And what are we to learn in theturbulence?
(52:47):
That's positioning us forgreater authority.
Because we've lived it, we'veexperienced it, we can give
testimony to the truth thatGod's teaching us so we can have
a greater impact to others.
Speaker 2 (52:59):
Yeah, so you got to keep asking Him.
I mean, you hit on a reallyimportant point, because
sometimes it's not God saying Iwant you to go in a different
direction.
You're chasing your own dream,not my vision.
It's really the enemypreventing you from stepping up
into what God has put on yourheart in the first place.
Speaker 1 (53:17):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (53:18):
And then really understanding the difference
between am I just scared or isGod truly redirecting me?
That's right.
Just keep asking, yeah, or isGod truly redirecting me?
Speaker 1 (53:26):
That's right so yeah, just keep asking, right, and
the thing is, is God alwaysgives the promise before you
know.
The promise comes before thefulfillment, of course, but he
gives the promise but he neversays the day is going to be
fulfilled.
Yes, and you can go fromGenesis all the way to
Revelation, and you can look atevery single book in the Bible.
(53:47):
And you can look at everysingle book in the Bible and you
can see the promises given bythe Lord, and then you can
literally see the adversarycoming in to thwart that promise
.
Right, I mean, go all the wayback to Abraham.
And so it literally starts withAbraham and it goes all the way
in to Mary getting pregnantwith Jesus and Joseph having to
(54:11):
say did she really get pregnantby the Holy Spirit?
What, yeah, Like.
So there's always this promiseand then you actually have to
live it out.
Yes, Joseph, we talked aboutJoseph, 17 years old.
He's going to rule the nationsand his brothers were going to
bow to him and, sure, sureenough, fast forward.
(54:32):
It's like 20 years later,because they went through the
abundance and then they gothrough the famine.
But when the Israelites wentthrough the famine, or the whole
land went through the famine,rather, the brothers had to come
and they bowed to Joseph to getfood because he was the right
hand to Pharaoh, the leader ofthe nations.
Like there's going to be anattack against the promises of
(54:59):
God.
Speaker 2 (55:00):
Yeah, always.
Speaker 1 (55:01):
And we got to stand up and lean into him.
Like you said, what is theresistance that is slowing us
down?
Because God's redirecting oursteps versus the ones that we
just have to push through,because the enemy we have an
enemy of our souls.
Oh yeah, the enemy doesn't wantto see the purpose fulfilled,
(55:22):
because it's thwarting his plans.
Speaker 2 (55:24):
So good Amen.
So we talked about the power ofsaying yes and certainly the
sweet spot of God's sovereigntyand our personal responsibility.
You know, what are?
Just some general ideas on howfolks can live this out in their
daily lives.
Speaker 1 (55:38):
Yeah, I mean, we've said it and we'll keep saying it
, but journaling is such acritical component.
I mean I have journals, journalentries going back to 2017 for
this podcast.
It's incredible 2017, that'seight years and we are now
(56:00):
launched, and it's I could say,you know, 2018, 19, 20,.
Every single year I could havedone something, but you know
God's timing and his purposesare always on time and I can see
it through journaling.
So why do I say journaling?
Because it builds faith.
(56:21):
It does.
It helps us not lose hope thatwhen we write the vision down
plainly, we can keep going backand leaning in and said God, you
said, you said you said, and ithelps bring clarity too right A
hundred percent To what?
Speaker 2 (56:34):
he is saying Exactly, exactly, so you can see the
patterns.
Speaker 1 (56:38):
Yeah, and then so we journal what the desires of our
hearts are, the visions from theLord.
We lean into his word to see,you know, what is the anchor of
scripture on the promise,because God's never going to
give a promise and not have hisword back it.
We can have a lot of humanaspirations, but if it's not
backed by the word of God, honey, you might want to run.
(57:00):
That's right.
And so we need to make surethat what we are desiring in our
heart aligns with God's word.
And then we got to pray it in.
You know, sometimes the actiontoo is prayer, and that doesn't
mean sometimes I think, we canuse prayer as an excuse.
I'm praying, I'm waiting forGod, I'm praying.
It's prayer and action Right.
(57:20):
Do what you know to do untilyou don't know what else to do.
You plan with God.
Speaker 2 (57:27):
Yeah, and I would.
I would encourage our listenersif you know you feel like God's
placed something on your heart,something stirring in your
spirit.
It's just a gentle reminderthat he doesn't expect you to
have it all figured out.
Speaker 1 (57:40):
Right.
Speaker 2 (57:40):
God rewards courage.
He rewards people who arewilling Just say yes, give it a
shot.
Rewards people who are willingjust say yes, give it a shot.
Amen, keep praying Journal onit.
It'll all become clear Exactly.
He will guide your steps andhe'll redirect them.
Speaker 1 (57:59):
If that's needed too, I love it.
It's just.
It goes back to trusting in him.
Yeah Right, I'm going to say itagain Trust in the Lord with
all your heart.
It's one of my favorites.
Lean not on your ownunderstanding and all your ways,
acknowledge him and he will setyour path straight.
He will, amen.
Let's go ahead and pray us out,please.
Okay, heavenly Father, we thankyou that you have created us
(58:23):
with purpose in mind, that yousaid that we are unique and we
are set apart, and that you haveplans to prosper us, to give us
hope in a future.
So, lord, as we faithfully takesteps to be in obedience to
your will, thank you that youpromise to establish our steps
(58:44):
perfectly straight, all for yourglory.
In the name of Jesus, we prayAmen.
I'm so excited for today's conversation.
It's truly the heartbeat behindthis entire podcast.
Sure is, and so many of usstruggle with this notion of how
much is surrender versus howmuch is striving.
How much should we let go andlet God entrust the process, or
where do we need more grit?
(00:30):
And we just have to double downand work harder and be the
pesky lady who's knocking at thedoor of the judge's chamber.
Right, that's right.
So yeah, it's this notion ofhow much is God's grace going to
show up versus what he isrequiring of us in grind.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
It's good.
I know it can be reallydifficult to figure out, right,
because it's not all hustle andit's not all let go and let God.
There actually is this sweetspot where.
God's sovereignty meets ourpersonal responsibility, kind of
this space where we know thathe is always in control but that
we have to step up and takeaction and still do our part
(01:12):
right.
And, man, when we get thatright, our whole lives expand in
the best possible way.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
I love that, and you touched on something you said
the words God's sovereignty andour responsibility.
Let's just dive into that justa little bit.
What is God's sovereignty?
It's the fact that he isultimately in control of all
things.
And so I love the scriptureProverbs 16, 9, where it says
(01:42):
that a man can make the plans.
He's going to make the plans ofhis heart, but it's the Lord
who establishes the steps.
And so what does this mean?
It means that there's thisreality that I have desires,
dreams, hopes in my heart, asyou do, as everyone does, and
that we have divine purpose,that God has put a purpose on us
(02:04):
before we were even fashionedin our mother's womb.
And God is in control, he'sgoing to see that purpose
through, and it's ourresponsibility to lean into Him
and to start to figure out whatthat can look like, and so we
can make plans.
Meaning, what is it going totake to fulfill that dream, that
(02:26):
hope, that desire?
I'm going to do A, b and C, andif those things don't work, I'm
going to do D, e and F.
Right, I'm going to keep goingand at the end of the day, when
something's fulfilled, when wereach a goal, when we see
success and we look in therearview mirror, we can see that
the plans we made were notlinear.
(02:48):
It's jagged, and it's becausethe Lord allows the path to veer
, so we can see Him at work withus, but His purposes will
continue to be established.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Yeah, you're hitting on a really important point when
you speak about how God haswritten the plan, and he has
right.
But it's easy for us tomisunderstand that a little bit,
I think, because just becausehe's written the story and he is
responsible for our plan, itdoesn't mean that the exact path
is already decided and that ourchoices don't matter, right?
(03:25):
It does mean that he's sosovereign and so wise and so far
ahead of us that he's actuallyalready accounted for every
choice that we will make.
But how quickly we actuallyreach the promise, how quickly
we step into our full potentialunder him, has a lot to do with
(03:45):
our choices and our actions,right?
I mean, it's like GPS you plugin your destination, you get
going on the road, you suddenlydecide you're going to take a
different route, or maybe youmiss a turn, right, and that's a
choice maybe that we made.
GPS is going to automaticallyrecalculate and eventually, we
(04:07):
will get to that destinationright, but now maybe we're
taking the long way.
You know we've had to reroute acouple of times.
We're in traffic, we hitdetours and now we have to stop
in a questionable gas stationbathroom right.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
God forbid, those bathrooms can be quite
questionable in nature.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
He tries to open doors and make it easy for us to
take the direct route, but ourchoices really?
Speaker 1 (04:33):
matter.
That's right.
He's not looking for spectators, he wants us to participate
with him.
Just like the GPS is in the car, the car doesn't just naturally
follow the GPS, it takes thedriver in the seat and it the
driver and the seat, and it'skind of like this I once heard
this analogy that God has Hisheavenly blueprints.
God has heavenly blueprintswhere he has a purpose and a
(04:55):
plan for our life.
It's predestined before we'reeven formed, as I said, and he,
in His love, in His grace andHis faithfulness and it's that
keyword, faithfulness that he'sgoing to see that purpose
through that, despite the bumpsand the falls that we may
(05:17):
experience on the journey toseeing the purpose fulfilled,
god is faithful to be with usevery step of the way.
He's not ever abandoning us orleaving us by ourselves.
So that's the heavenly blueprintand that's God's part, okay,
and he's going to see it tofulfillment.
Then there's the canvas of lifeand we all have a blank canvas
(05:40):
and, just like when you start acanvas and you want to draw a
picture or paint somethingbeautiful, you start to add
color to it, you put shapes init and it starts to become
filled out over time.
That's good and in the eye ofthe artist, the end result never
is quite like it was at thebeginning.
But the point is is the artisthas to start to put pen to the
(06:03):
canvas, marker to the canvas,paint to the canvas in order for
the canvas to be filled out.
So good.
And so when that canvas iscompletely filled out to
perfection and then it's becauseGod's establishing our steps,
it's perfectly aligned to theheavenly blueprint we actually
start to see God's purposesfulfilled in our lives.
Oh, that's good.
(06:23):
That's good.
It's that awkwardness that weall resist of the unknown space
between when God gives us thedesire of our heart and we have
the hope that we expect it,instant gratification, instant
fulfillment that it's going tobe fulfilled.
Tomorrow we all want the endstory of Joseph, right Joseph in
(06:46):
the Bible, in Genesis.
He got a prophecy that he wasgoing to be a leader over the
nations at the age of 17.
And his brothers were sojealous of that promise that
they threw him into slavery.
They literally took him andsold him into human slavery.
And it wouldn't be another 13years until the fulfillment of
(07:07):
that promise started to becometrue.
And so what was the journeybetween when God gave the
promise to the fulfillment?
Joseph had to go into slavery.
He was thrown into prison.
He was in pit after pit afterpit and at the end of the day,
that adversity, god used it allfor his purposes.
And then Joseph was put intoposition.
(07:28):
But I mean again, josephwouldn't have planned all those
adverse events to happen in hislife.
It would have been a perfectlyharmonious straight line between
desire given to desirefulfilled.
If man were doing it alone, butwith God he establishes his
(07:49):
purposes along the way to theultimate fulfillment of the
promise.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Yeah, when we lean too far on all God's sovereignty
and no personal responsibility,I think that's often when we
become a little bit too passive.
Right, it's that whole let goand let God bucket where we're
just waiting for Him to do ourpart.
And then sometimes we can findourselves blaming God for not
(08:14):
fulfilling the promise when wedidn't take action and step out
in faith ourselves right.
But then when we lean too faron our own personal
responsibility and we don't walkwith God, that's when it turns
into burnout, right.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Well, it's the notion too of delayed obedience,
meaning when we know God'scalled us to do something but,
for whatever the reason, we'renot doing it.
Maybe it's lack of confidence,it's the fear of success.
If I actually reach success,what does that actually mean for
me?
But whatever's delaying myobedience to take the step, or
(08:55):
what you said, outsourcing theresponsibility back to God, and
it's God's problem and I'm justa victim if he doesn't do it.
That delayed obedience isactually disobedience Agreed,
and it's important because whenwe are walking in disobedience
of the Lord, it's almost likehis hedge of protection and his
covering may not be fully intact, right, and so the
(09:22):
encouragement is if you hearfrom the Lord, how quickly can
you step into obedience?
Just doing what you know to do,regardless of if it's getting
the fruit that you so expect,but trusting God with the
outcome?
Speaker 2 (09:35):
I love it.
Philippians 2.13 says it is Godwho works in you to will and to
act in order to fulfill hisgood purpose.
So if we show up with effort,he's going to bring the outcome
right.
He's going to open the doors,he's going to put the right
people around us, he's going togive us the courage, he's going
to guide our steps.
You know all the things, but wejust need to team up with him
(09:56):
and do our part.
You know, Angelique, your storyis such a beautiful example of
this.
I know that you didn't chasetechnology.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
It beautiful example of this.
I know that you didn't chasetechnology.
It found you.
It's so true I barely couldturn on a computer back in my.
I find that very hard tobelieve.
It's hard to believe today.
You were a coder.
Come on, I know, but how did Ibecome a coder?
Is the question.
I literally could barely turnon a computer in my late teens
and I started in technology 18,19 years old.
(10:24):
And so how did this come to be?
I was actually in college tobecome a paralegal.
I graduated high school when Iwas 17.
I was on a two-year track to bea paralegal.
I'm in my last days of beingeducated in this phenomenal
field, where I started to do aninternship and guess what?
I found out that this field ofchoice.
(10:45):
I chose it.
It wasn't going to be for me.
I was going to maybe have aboring life if I chose to stay
in a paralegal.
From my perspective, I knowlots of paralegals are out there
and they love what they do, butit wasn't for me.
And at that point where I hadthis realization that I just
spent all this money on thiseducation, I did everything I
(11:05):
knew to do and I was like, oh mygosh, I can't imagine this for
the rest of my life.
I had this divine encounterwith this recruiter from
Manpower and she was literallysourcing bodies to do this
project all over the Chicagolandarea and it was basically I
call it idiot proof.
What is the dummies book?
(11:26):
The dummy books that they have?
Speaker 2 (11:27):
out there.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Yes, yes, Okay, they basically gave you an
instruction manual.
Follow this step by step bystep, Go into each location,
Turn up this technology, and itwas idiot-proof.
And so it was.
I was highly successful, but somuch.
So.
What started to happen is it wasclient server installs standing
(11:48):
up new technology for retailersout there Doesn't really matter
, but the point is I had anatural knack for the field of
technology.
So let's just say, the typicalperson could do one to two
installs per day.
I was doing like five per day.
I was crushing it and I'm notbragging in myself, it was just
(12:09):
something that just was lit onfire.
As soon as I started to do itand because I was set apart
amongst the crowd, all of asudden the spotlight's on me and
they moved me.
I was the only field rep out ofa two-week project to then say
hey, we want to offer you afull-time opportunity, we're
going to train you in the fieldof technology, we're going to
(12:29):
send you back to college so youcan get a comp sci degree and
literally they wrote my ticketinto the future.
Now I can't take credit for that.
That is a divine miracle.
I literally did not even knowhow to turn on a computer and
you laugh at me, but I promiseyou I didn't.
It's just hard to envision.
And then all of a sudden itjust came to me.
(12:50):
It's like when you getsupernatural downloads.
I'm telling you, God wasworking through my fingertips.
He was working through my bodybecause he was going to use my
career for so much more thanjust survival mode putting food
on the table, et cetera.
Right, he had a divine purposein calling me to technology and
(13:11):
there was nothing that was goingto thwart his plan, because
he's establishing my steps.
I had his divine wisdom, I hadfavor with him and with man.
I mean.
Again, out of a couple hundredpeople, I was the only one who
was offered a full-timeopportunity with the runway to
(13:34):
get a college education inCompSci Like absolutely God's
divine plan.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
What really stands out to me is you said yes even
when you were uncomfortable.
And then he surrounds you withthe people.
What really stands out to me isyou said yes even when you were
uncomfortable.
And then he surrounds you withthe people he trains on the job
more often than not.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
He does.
It's really the essence ofProverbs 3, 5 through 6.
It says One of my favorites, setyour path straight.
And the crazy thing is I wasnot following God back in those
days, okay, but he knew that hewas calling me forward and it
(14:15):
would take a couple years beforeI would even get to the point
where I would be like, oh, thisJesus, dude, like I need him in
my life.
But he's so sovereign that hewas there each step of the way,
giving me what I needed, feedingme what I needed, to set me up
for the fulfillment of what's tocome.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
It's just so, so good and do you feel like were you
comfortable or were youuncomfortable every time you
took a step and rose higher?
Speaker 1 (14:46):
You know it's funny In my early days.
You know, naivete is bliss.
What you don't know is just abeautiful thing.
I had no fear when I wasyounger.
I just did it boldly.
My glass was always half full,incredibly optimistic, and I
can't say that I did things withcourage or bravery because,
honestly, I didn't look at theworld through that lens.
(15:08):
I just did it.
It's just okay here I am todayshowing up on the scene and I'm
just going to do what's in frontof me, and it's that very
childlike way of living.
That that's how I started.
Now, as you gain more of theworld, you start to realize the
(15:29):
cost of losing it.
Sure, Okay.
So when I had nothing, I didn'teven think about it.
I was just like, well, this isexciting.
I guess I'm going to try outtechnology.
Oh, and look at thecompensation.
It pays pretty well.
Oh, look at the learningopportunity.
I'm never going to be bored.
I'm going to keep learning,learning, learning.
All I saw were the benefits andthe fruit and just the goodness
(15:50):
of it all.
Then, as you become accustomedto a lifestyle again, you gain
the things of this world.
Then you have more to lose, andthen I would say that's where,
for me, it was probably, I don'tknow less than a decade into my
career, but still a coupleyears in where I started to say,
(16:14):
what if I lost it?
What if I'm actually notqualified to be at the table?
I didn't find technology.
It found me.
And what if it was a mistakethat it found me?
And you know, I start showingup and you know, when you're in
technology specifically, you aresurrounded by brilliant minds.
(16:40):
Sure, I mean, I'm talking like,like technologists coming out
of MIT.
And then you got little old mefrom Podunk, Illinois, in the
middle of nowhere and I say thatwith love in my heart, but
literally I grew up half my lifein a little town with less than
2,000 people, and maybe ahandful of folks would go on and
(17:01):
get a higher education.
Yeah, a handful of folks wouldgo on and get a higher education
.
And so for me, specifically,when I found myself in New York
and I'm working at the pace ofNew York and with the pedigree
of New Yorkers like highlyeducated they come from a
different pedigree, if you will,and I say that in air quotes I
(17:22):
found myself starting to ask thequestion should I actually be
in the seat?
Do I deserve to be here?
Who's going to upset me?
Who's going to be the smarterone?
Who comes and displaces me?
And not only that if you workin technology as a woman nine
times out of 10, you're the onlyfemale at that table.
(17:43):
Yeah, and so eventually Istarted to find myself being
highly aware that I was a femaleat the table, and it's not
because my peer group or even myleadership that I worked under
made me feel that way.
It was an insecurity thatstarted to come up later,
(18:05):
naturally, that God wanted todeal with.
Just for the record, I amincredibly blessed because I've
always had incredible men asleaders and peers.
I've worked with some of thebest and the brightest and the
most caring.
So, again, I just want to saythis thing that I started to
(18:27):
feel we could call it impostersyndrome.
Sure, it was something that wasgoing on with me, based on
underlying issues that had to bedealt with, but it did come up.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
So interesting that it came so much later in life.
I listened to your story and Ihad no idea that.
I mean, you appear veryfearless, so it doesn't surprise
me to hear that you are, but Iwish that I knew what that felt
like, because my entire life ithas been feeling the fear and
doing it anyway.
(19:00):
It has been being extremelycourageous because my body would
betray me, hush back and then Iwould get so red and so
splotchy and inside my body theknots and shaking hands and the
whole thing and, frankly, stillto this day I have a bit of that
(19:21):
.
This is very uncomfortable forme, even if it doesn't look that
way.
But I have felt kind of mywhole life like tapped, called,
pushed, and I'm grateful thatI'm somebody who.
It's okay.
If I stumble, you know, and Ifail, I will lay my head on the
(19:43):
pillow at night and be moreproud that I tried right.
And then I lean into the Lordand I know that he's faithful
and that oftentimes he doesn'tnecessarily call the most
qualified right.
I even think in scripturedidn't Moses say Lord, I don't
speak well and I want to go?
(20:04):
I feel you, moses, or Gideon,who's like I'm the weakest in
the family David.
He was the little guy right, soI trust that he'll teach on the
job, and it even makes me thinkabout, I mean, what a blessing
our church is right.
Because they're famous for theirstatement we never leave you
(20:24):
where you are.
So you're that person hiding inthe back, you know.
So you're that person hiding inthe back.
They'll, they'll.
They see a little spark in you,you know.
And then and then you, theywere surrounded by people who
lift each other up and and findeach other's hidden gifts and
talents and encourage each other.
So I think of all these peoplewho have stepped up, scared as
(20:46):
well.
Right, and in six months, in ayear, in two years, I am blown
away by the transformation.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Yeah, you know.
I just want to click back toyou saying you did things scared
, you know, despite.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
I'm scared right now.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Yeah, you're really amazing.
Okay, tell us more about that,though.
Tell us more about what did itlook like when you were in
middle school, high school orpick your point in time, but
where you felt like leadershipwas grabbing a hold of you,
because it's easy to see youtoday again successful business
(21:30):
owner, entrepreneur, you're aleader of many multitudes, and
you do it with such grace andelegance and strength.
Where did that start?
Speaker 2 (21:43):
You know it's hard to say.
I feel like people just somehowalways assumed that I would be
the one to step up and I wouldthink in my mind, why me?
Don't they understand howwildly uncomfortable this is for
me and that I'm over here justtrying to figure things out
myself?
But oftentimes I cared moreabout other people's discomfort
(22:04):
than my own, and I was raised ina family I mean, we all are
kind of never quit.
No matter what you do in life,give it your best shot, no
matter how it plays out.
And I mean, of course you neverwant to look silly and no one
wants to fail.
But the most successful peoplein the world actually embrace
(22:27):
failure right, because it meansthat you're truly going for
things.
So I don't know.
I can just think back tostanding up in front of
elementary school class andacting out book reports, to
running for middle schoolpresident where I did a rap
literally over the entire PAsystem which I still remember to
(22:47):
this day.
We're going to hear it.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
We're going to hear it in the future.
Maybe one day, another day.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Yes, to finding myself to your point about
imposter syndrome just veryearly in my career, somehow at
these tables with thesebrilliant minds and people with
pedigrees that could run circlesaround mine and wondering why
I'm here with pedigrees thatcould run circles around mine
(23:14):
and wondering why I'm here, youknow, to finally having the
courage to start my own business.
I mean, the list goes on.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
But I just did it scared.
I love that and you know it canshow up.
You know fear can show up inmany different ways from what we
kind of touched on.
Do it scared even if, maybe, ifyou're feeling like an imposter
, like do you really deserve tobe at the table.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
It also can show up like this.
It reminds me of how I steppedinto my current CIO role, and so
I was at a company prior towhere I'm at now.
I was at a company and I hadbeen there for about six years
and I had really deep personalrelationships at that
(23:58):
organization.
It was a smaller techorganization, founder-led two
amazing founders, had, again,deep trust, deep connectivity
with them and we did some prettyamazing things, okay, so what
you could say is I was verycomfortable, okay, I had done a
lot of hard things with thatcompany, yeah, and but I had
(24:21):
deep trust and deep comfort andI found myself.
This is the summer of 2018.
Okay, I found myself in apersonal crisis where my son,
austin, who is today 29 yearsold, he had another issue.
In the last episode I kind oftalked about an episode that he
(24:44):
went through in 2011.
And I've said I've had a lifeof episodes with this kid and
young man now, but in 2018, hegot into trouble again and he
found himself in cardiac arrestin the Minneapolis airport.
And if anybody knows anythingabout cardiac arrest, it's not
an actual heart attack.
(25:05):
It's when your heart just stops, and his heart was stopped for
over 20 minutes and it's a crazy, miraculous story, but he was
clinically brain dead for threedays in the ICU.
Not a hope like not a hopebeing breathed into us.
It was literally just prepareto have your son, you know, be
(25:26):
taken home via casket, youknowket, back to North Carolina
after the three days.
Not going to get into all thedetails of that, but I say all
that to say.
Austin eventually came home andin the middle of this personal
crisis, I'm working for acompany that I loved, that I had
(25:47):
a tremendous amount of trustinside, of deep relationships.
These people were supporting methrough one of the biggest
crises that I would go throughright, I mean literally facing
the death of a child and theyloved and they cared for me
deeply, alisa.
And in the middle of it all,there was this divine
(26:07):
interruption in my career wherean opportunity for the role that
I'm in now came forward.
And in my plan it's like heckto the no, I'm not going to be
disloyal and leave this workfamily that just has been
supporting me and is continuingto support me through a personal
crisis.
(26:27):
They've done so much for meover the past six years, like
the loyalty thing.
And then there's just thecommon sense insurance, like
Austin, is in great need ofstable medical insurance.
So you're not going to leaveyour current role to go to
(26:49):
another one and just disruptmedical benefits, right?
Yeah, well, as the Lord wouldhave it.
Despite every kick and screamthat I had, it was very clear
that he was calling me to a newplace and that place was going
to say do you trust me?
Going back to Proverbs 3, 5through 6, lean not on your own
(27:11):
understanding, doesn't matterabout the medical benefits,
doesn't matter about the loyaltyto the human beings.
Are you actually going to trustme and are you going to be
faithful to me?
Are you going to be loyal to meBecause I'm calling you higher
and I'm widening yourresponsibility?
And I would say yes.
And seven days later, after Istarted I'll never forget I
(27:32):
started Avid Exchange, where I'mat now, october 22, 2018.
And one week later, austinwould go in for open heart
surgery at Duke University.
It can't be more turbulent thanthat.
And that decision again wasjust a faithful decision that I
made, trusting the Lord, and itwould bear an incredible amount
(27:56):
of fruit over the years to comethat I'm seeing right now.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
But yeah, we know that God works all things out
for the good of those that loveHim and are called according to
His purposes.
Yes, he does Seek first Hiskingdom that love him and are
called according to his purposes.
Yes, he does Seek first hiskingdom.
Amen, and it will be done untoyou.
That's right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Well, let's talk a little bit about imposter
syndrome.
You brought that up a littlebit earlier.
I think we all struggle with it.
We've sat at tables withbrilliant people.
You said that you started tofeel that a little bit later in
life.
You started out life fearless,just stepped up hey, what are we
here to do?
And then later, the more youhad you felt, the more you had
(28:40):
to lose.
And so you started to questionyourself a little bit there.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
Yeah, and I think the higher God calls you, you're
being elevated with people whohave been elevated ahead of you.
Great point, right, great point.
And so when I first started mycareer, it would be you know I'm
going to say threat.
I never felt threatened by them.
(29:04):
I was never in competition withpeer groups, but I was always
in high regard of their talentand their backgrounds and I
always valued their path morethan my own path, okay, and so I
wasn't threatened by them, butI had more revere in regard for
(29:24):
them over my own personaljourney, and I have to continue
to be aware of that even stillto this day.
So it started with softwareengineers coming out of MIT, and
now it's business leaders withMBAs from Harvard University or
the founder of some of theworld's greatest financial
(29:46):
institutions financialinstitutions, or some of the
greatest investors on this sideof heaven, meaning they've
invested in the likes of Fitbit,linkedin, and we've seen the
success of these companies.
I mean, god has put in mycircle an incredible network of
(30:08):
accomplished people and I canlook at their paths and going
how did I get here?
Again and again, should I behere?
And I don't live in that place.
You can't live in that place.
But when it comes up, I ask why?
Why is this coming up?
(30:32):
What is still not dealt with,that needs to be dealt with?
That's a good question With theLord.
And then how do I work throughit?
Because the next question is ifyou don't deal with it, you're
putting a ceiling on yourself.
Yes, so people say you hit theglass ceiling if you will, but
(30:52):
they don't talk about it's aself-imposed ceiling.
Oh yeah, we talk about it, thatit's put on people.
But actually my experience hasbeen I put it on myself
Absolutely, and so I'm a strongbeliever if you're not growing,
you're dying.
If you're not pushing throughthe current ceiling that you are
(31:15):
putting yourself in right now,that's the highest you're ever
going to go.
But God calls us to keep goinghigher and higher and higher
until we meet Him.
Why?
Because the stakes are high,because he's calling us higher
so we can have greater influence, so we can disciple the nations
.
So good, so oftentimes we putministry in a box meaning, oh,
(31:38):
we do ministry, meaning we gomake disciples of the nations
for Jesus, in the church or onthe mission field, on a mission
trip in the name of Jesus, thework that we do, but we kind of
divide it from the work that wedo for location right when we
(31:58):
actually are compensated, butthat is where we spend the
majority of our time.
So for me, my ministry, firstand foremost is my family.
Second is my marketplace role,all the people that I lead and
shepherd every day.
It's my direct accountability tocare and love for those people
(32:19):
and to shepherd them.
And then it goes to the broadercommunity and so it's really
getting back to impostersyndrome.
It's so critical to lean in andjust ask yourself be brave
enough to say where, where, notif where, does imposter syndrome
(32:39):
show up?
Yeah, Because the greatestpeople in the Bible going back
to your point, Moses, David, etcetera, they all struggled with
imposter syndrome.
Yeah, so to think that we don't, we're not being honest with
ourselves.
So where is it showing up?
That's good.
And how do I deal with it so Ican continue to grow my
(32:59):
influence for His glory, Not myown glory, but His glory so good
.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
And I feel like the closer we walk with Christ right
and the more consistently weseek a relationship with Him,
the more we understand ouridentity in Him, and then he
becomes the only one thatmatters.
So you can ask yourself, youknow, is what I'm doing in
alignment with the Lord, whetherI'm doing it well or not?
(33:28):
But imposter syndrome, it's sucha common human emotion that we
all struggle with and feel, butI even have some notes here of
just some thought leadership toshare with other people.
That has helped me really flipthe script on this.
Oh, I love it and I'd love foryour thoughts on this.
(33:53):
I love it and I'd love for yourthoughts.
So the first thing is, considerthat imposter syndrome isn't
always about inadequacy, right,that the fear that you're
feeling isn't necessarily thatyou aren't worthy, but that it's
simply a sign that you'regetting ready to level up, right
, that you're getting ready torise higher, because we talked
about this a little bit earlier.
You've acknowledged that aswell.
When you're taking that nextstep, typically it's going to be
(34:16):
uncomfortable, because, if youthink about it, when you're
playing small and you're juststaying in your comfort zone,
you don't feel imposter syndrome, right.
So that whole ceiling you spokeabout, you're going to stay
right there.
Right, it has to getuncomfortable in order for you
to take the next step.
And then I would also sharethat.
(34:37):
Secondly, being surrounded bygreatness doesn't mean that
you're less than I.
Think that there's another realopportunity for us to reframe
that one too.
And when you start tounderstand and I think we spoke
about this earlier too, the waythat God works, that he opens
doors and he surrounds you withthe right people, if you think
(34:59):
about it more not as comparison,but I have this opportunity to
learn from these people who havebeen there, done that or have
something to teach me, andthere's a reason that God put me
in this room.
You look at it differently,right?
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Have you had any of those moments?
You know absolutely 100%.
And I would also say anotherquestion is what do the people
around you have to gain frombeing in your presence?
And so I go back to it used tobe the mindset of again.
(35:41):
I'm in a meeting with thefounder of one of the biggest
financial institutions in theglobe and I'd be like in awe,
yeah.
And then I would ask myself thequestion I wonder if he knows
Jesus.
That's good.
I wonder what his upbringingwas.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
And what adversities has he lived through.
So, taking the role and theaccomplishment of the person out
, whatever the world equatessuccess to for that person, take
that out and look at them as aperson so good and say what can
I give them that is valuable tothem?
(36:25):
Yeah, and it's not about evenwhat I can give them.
It is what does God want to doin and through me?
So why am I at this table rightnow?
It's not.
Should I be.
I'm already here.
God has put me here, and sowhat's His purpose in it?
So I'm going to learn from themand I'm going to soak it all in
and keep growing and not bethreatened by it.
(36:47):
But also, what do I need toshare back?
Speaker 2 (36:51):
out so good.
Just that heart posture isshining his light right, amen,
amen.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
One of my greatest mentors and he is absolutely
phenomenal has the pedigree, theworld success, all the things
right, and he has a heartposture.
He's one of the most humblepeople I've ever come into
contact with and I've beendeeply mentored by him and he
has publicly shared that he hasbattled depression over the
(37:22):
years and even in him sharingthat if I would have had First
of all, if I would have justheld him on a pedestal and never
connected with him in a veryhumane way, I wouldn't have
really been able to connect tothe fact that he had an issue
with depression.
And then I can look at peoplethat I care about and I love
(37:45):
that have also had struggleswith depression and start to
make that connection.
So I can learn from my mentornot just how to make me
successful in my career, butteach me more about your
personal struggle withdepression, because that wisdom
and that personal journey of himcan help me with those that I
(38:08):
love.
I love that.
And so just trying to draw acouple different parallelisms to
if we are truly, if we say thatthe marketplace is our ministry
call and we're there to lovepeople, then it's not just about
getting ahead and breakingthrough glass ceilings.
It gets to the why behind, whywe're there to begin with and if
(38:30):
we're in service to His kingdompurposes.
The ceilings are going to bebusted wide open because the
heart posture to what you said,god's just going to create
avenues for us to doimmeasurably more than we can
ask, think or imagine.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
That's right, it's cool, yeah, and the last thing
that I'll say about impostersyndrome is the enemy wants you
there, right?
I mean, we have to rememberthat, because if you stay in
that place, then you disqualifyyourself for him.
He doesn't even have to do anywork.
Amen.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
It's not about being perfect either.
That's so good.
It's not about being perfectwhere we're at.
It's about the position that wehold.
We are sons and daughters ofthe King.
Yes, and that holds position.
Yeah.
And when we know we are rightlypositioned, then all the things
(39:24):
, the weapons that the enemyuses against us, are going to
come down very, very quickly.
I go back to 2 Timothy 1.7, forthe spirit God gave us does not
make us timid, but gives uspower, love and self-discipline.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
I love that.
Speaking of timid, one morething the man in the arena.
You know that quote, right,theodore Roosevelt.
One more thing yes, the man inthe arena.
Yeah, you know that quote,right, theodore Roosevelt.
One of my absolute favorites.
I got to read it just as areminder for folks who've never
heard it it's not the critic whocounts, not the one who points
out how the strong man stumblesor where the doer of deeds could
(40:03):
have done them better.
The credit belongs to the onewho is actually in the arena,
whose face is marred by dust andsweat and blood, who falls
short, who stumbles again andagain but who keeps striving
valiantly.
I mean I love that because,again, it's about obeying right,
(40:24):
it's showing up, it's trustingthat he'll equip us through the
process and being proud that,even if you stumble and fall,
that you just tried.
I mean, keep in mind, thepeople who are the loudest are
the ones who won't be courageousenough to even try, right.
And they're the ones with allthe judgment and the opinion.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Yeah, amen.
I think that's very well said.
And I think I want to pivotback to ministry in the
marketplace for a minute,because here we are, you know,
we have a president.
What you just quoted basicallykeeps striving, keeps striving,
keeps striving.
And here we are, two women inthe marketplace.
So what does it look like forus?
(41:08):
And I go back to what is yourmission field.
Do we just show up to collect apaycheck and it's almost like
the Monday dread comes upon us?
Or do we think about Monday asa Sunday that we're taking God
(41:31):
out of the pulpit, we're takingHim out of sermons and we're
actually living it out?
God says in Luke that those whohear the Word of God and who
put it into practice, those arethe ones who are going to
inherit the kingdom.
So it's not about just going tochurch on Sundays and doing the
rituals of faith, it's aboutputting it, doing the rituals of
faith, it's about putting itinto practice.
And so for me, if I aspire tocontinue to impact nations, so
(41:58):
in my heart, god has put nationson my heart.
Now, do I feel like that'shappening right now?
Maybe, maybe this podcast isgoing to the ends of the earth,
right, but the fact of thematter is, god put desires in my
heart and I'm waiting, justlike Joseph, for certain things
to be fulfilled.
And he calls me to be a goodsteward where I'm at, be
(42:22):
thankful for small beginnings.
Be thankful that I got themanual back in the 90s to go do
client server installs and torun around Chicago for two weeks
, because that small beginningas a temp worker literally was a
gate that God used to open tothe rest of my career.
(42:43):
And even where I'm at right now, I believe that there's bigger
gates that are going to beopening.
And so, seeing the people howdo you be faithful where you're
at?
By seeing the people.
People don't care what you haveto say until they know that you
care that famous quote right.
(43:04):
How do people know that I careabout them?
And I can tell you, through myjourney and my career, I've had
people turn me into HR becauseI'm very open with my faith.
It's a great story Not to getinto that today, but the point
is that happened.
(43:26):
Did I get angry?
Did I get bitter?
Actually, no, I was maybe alittle hurt when it first
happened.
It's happened numerous timesnow, so not that I'm used to it.
You never get used to that sortof thing, but I am confident in
the Lord and what I stand for.
And what do I mean by that?
My truth is my truth and justlike we say that we want people
(43:53):
to be able to explore theirfaith in a safe space with us on
this podcast, I take that sameapproach in the marketplace,
where I don't expect everyonewho works for me to fall at the
feet of Jesus tomorrow.
I hope they do.
Sure, right, but that's betweenthem and God, that's right.
God is the one who's in thebusiness of salvation, but what
I can do is love them wherethey're at.
(44:15):
And just because I haveteammates whose moral compass
may not align perfectly to mine,maybe their values and
worldview don't align perfectlyto mine, I can still love them
where they're at.
Yeah, and what does that mean?
I can see what God's put inthem.
Everyone is a unique treasure,yeah, and I can nurture it.
(44:35):
I can call it forward and I canbe the best leader I can be to
that person in the season thatGod's given me leadership
opportunity with them.
Yeah, right, so what does thatlook like?
Speaker 2 (44:47):
for you, I think ministry is every moment of
every day right.
So what does that look like?
For you, I think, ministry isevery moment of every day right.
I mean literally every word,every interaction, every
response is an opportunity.
I think it's interesting.
We were talking about thisrecently in one of our life
groups where we're reading abook actually it's over there
called Shape.
I highly recommend this book.
(45:07):
It's amazing.
It's about finding andfulfilling your gifts and
talents and true purpose underGod.
But sometimes it can get veryoverwhelming when you care about
sharing the gospel and making adifference in people's lives
and really serving the Lord ineverything that you do, we get
(45:28):
so twisted that we have to bedoing something profound, when
sometimes, maybe your role wasone interaction with somebody
that literally changed thetrajectory of their life, just
based on a conversation that youhad right, or the way that you,
(45:49):
you know, reflected thegoodness of Jesus, you know, an
encouraging word, a prayer, anyof those things.
So I just I feel like it'shappening every moment of every
day.
And then, yes to your point,sometimes things happen for
people immediately as a resultof that that you interact with,
(46:09):
and other times it takes a whilefor them to come around.
I mean even—we won't get intoall those stories, but I know
even in your stories it startedout with I'm going to HR on
Angelique ended up with somebodywalking very close to the Lord
today.
So it's incredible.
And I would also add that it'salso even ministry is happening
(46:33):
behind closed doors, right?
It's all the things you'redoing with Him when no one's
looking.
Speaker 1 (46:39):
That's right.
Our heart's formed in thesecret place and so from the
heart is the wellspring of life.
So if there's good stuff in it,it's going to naturally flow
out.
But if you don't have thatsacred time with the Lord, your
heart's not going to bepositioned well to do ministry,
because you can't pour out froman empty cup.
And the other thing that justreally hits me is that our job
(47:04):
is to sow into water.
So we plow up the hard ground,we sow the seeds and we water it
.
And that just means we plantseeds of truth, we tell truth,
we water by continuing to loveand to care.
And God is the God of theharvest, he's the God that makes
it grow, makes the fruit come.
We may never see the seedsbloom, the great point.
(47:28):
And we just need to know thatif we're obedient, where God has
us, he's in the business ofmaking the fruit come.
And the thing that Jesus said,his departing words to his
disciples, that he has giveneach of us his authority, what
he did on earth, he said we'regoing to do immeasurably more
(47:50):
than what he did.
And he didn't say sit, hedidn't say just pray, he said go
.
Yes, that is action.
Again, faith without action isdead, yeah.
So again, it's not aboutsitting, it's do what we need to
do from a place of rest.
(48:11):
Okay, he says take care of yourmind, your body, your soul and
your spirit.
Take care of you so you canhave overflow to others and when
you're coming from that placeof overflow you're not going to
burn out.
But he does not say sit idle.
He says go and make disciplesof the nations.
It's a command, it is.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
It's so good Faith isn't passive, that's for sure,
amen.
So what happens when we stepout and things don't go the way
that we planned?
I think it's an easy place toget twisted.
To know the difference betweendivine resistance and personal
resistance, right, yes, whenyou're?
Speaker 1 (48:48):
walking it out?
Yeah, 100%.
And so there is divineresistance and personal
resistance, and I think thatwe've covered a lot of the
personal resistance when we areoperating from a place of fear,
and there's this old saying fearstands for false evidence
(49:10):
appearing real.
I love that False evidenceappearing real.
So when we are believing a lieand we're just comfortable in
our rest, meaning our inaction,then we're going to create our
own resistance.
Right, we're actually.
It's a self-fulfilling prophecy, you know, you are what you
(49:31):
think, which we're going to getinto in the next episode.
But it's so critically importantto understand where the
resistance is coming from, andit first takes inspection of
your personal mind and yourheart.
What is happening If you'retaking all the steps that you
know to take and you're stillfeeling like it's just not going
(49:56):
your way?
That could be divine resistance.
So what do I mean by that?
This podcast, getting it offthe ground?
This is a real life workingexample.
I can't tell you the sheernumber of what I would call
attacks on me personally and myfamily, and then the volume of
(50:24):
work that's been turned up inthe last two quarters.
The day we declared that wewere going to do a podcast, my
work turned up and then justbumps and bruises with my family
got amplified, and then thatall comes on me personally.
(50:45):
That all comes on me personallyand it's easy to say, ooh, yes,
god, I'm going to do it, butI'm going to delay because I
need to get through all thisstuff first.
And what I have found in mylife is the more I say, well,
did I hear you?
And I go back and look at myjournals and I go back into
prayer and I'm like, no, I heardyou.
(51:10):
You said do the podcast withElisa and do it now.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (51:12):
And he really did, and he really did and yeah, we
heard.
Speaker 1 (51:16):
That's a whole other story.
Speaker 2 (51:17):
Yes, that's a whole other story.
Speaker 1 (51:18):
But we heard loud and clear.
And so what can we do?
We have to be flexible, we haveto be proactive and communicate
, be vulnerable, communicatewhat's going on, but still work,
create a plan and trust thatGod's going to establish the
steps behind us.
And the plan has to berealistic.
At first me go-getter I'm likewe are going to hire Hellwater,
(51:41):
we're going to launch thispodcast in April, and Lisa,
you're like, oh, that's kind ofpushing it.
And I'm like, nope, we're goingto do it.
And then you've got to getrealistic and you've got to make
your plan and can it fit?
And then the bumps and thebruises that come along the way,
god will divinely work in it.
But here we are.
So divine resistance it can worktwofold.
(52:03):
God could be slowing you downso you can lean in to what
matters most, not only justleaning into what matters most.
There's lessen in theresistance Meaning.
What did he need me to learn inthe last six months?
That is actually going to helpme be even a better steward of
(52:25):
what he's given me for now.
Do you know what I mean?
Yeah, and so there's alwayspurpose in the resistance when
it's coming from God or if he'sallowing the weapon formed
against us.
He's not going to allow it toprevail, but there is this truth
that he's allowing theturbulence.
And what are we to learn in theturbulence?
(52:47):
That's positioning us forgreater authority.
Because we've lived it, we'veexperienced it, we can give
testimony to the truth thatGod's teaching us so we can have
a greater impact to others.
Speaker 2 (52:59):
Yeah, so you got to keep asking Him.
I mean, you hit on a reallyimportant point, because
sometimes it's not God saying Iwant you to go in a different
direction.
You're chasing your own dream,not my vision.
It's really the enemypreventing you from stepping up
into what God has put on yourheart in the first place.
Speaker 1 (53:17):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (53:18):
And then really understanding the difference
between am I just scared or isGod truly redirecting me?
That's right.
Just keep asking, yeah, or isGod truly redirecting me?
Speaker 1 (53:26):
That's right so yeah, just keep asking, right, and
the thing is, is God alwaysgives the promise before you
know.
The promise comes before thefulfillment, of course, but he
gives the promise but he neversays the day is going to be
fulfilled.
Yes, and you can go fromGenesis all the way to
Revelation, and you can look atevery single book in the Bible.
(53:47):
And you can look at everysingle book in the Bible and you
can see the promises given bythe Lord, and then you can
literally see the adversarycoming in to thwart that promise
.
Right, I mean, go all the wayback to Abraham.
And so it literally starts withAbraham and it goes all the way
in to Mary getting pregnantwith Jesus and Joseph having to
(54:11):
say did she really get pregnantby the Holy Spirit?
What, yeah, Like.
So there's always this promiseand then you actually have to
live it out.
Yes, Joseph, we talked aboutJoseph, 17 years old.
He's going to rule the nationsand his brothers were going to
bow to him and, sure, sureenough, fast forward.
(54:32):
It's like 20 years later,because they went through the
abundance and then they gothrough the famine.
But when the Israelites wentthrough the famine, or the whole
land went through the famine,rather, the brothers had to come
and they bowed to Joseph to getfood because he was the right
hand to Pharaoh, the leader ofthe nations.
Like there's going to be anattack against the promises of
(54:59):
God.
Speaker 2 (55:00):
Yeah, always.
Speaker 1 (55:01):
And we got to stand up and lean into him.
Like you said, what is theresistance that is slowing us
down?
Because God's redirecting oursteps versus the ones that we
just have to push through,because the enemy we have an
enemy of our souls.
Oh yeah, the enemy doesn't wantto see the purpose fulfilled,
(55:22):
because it's thwarting his plans.
Speaker 2 (55:24):
So good Amen.
So we talked about the power ofsaying yes and certainly the
sweet spot of God's sovereigntyand our personal responsibility.
You know, what are?
Just some general ideas on howfolks can live this out in their
daily lives.
Speaker 1 (55:38):
Yeah, I mean, we've said it and we'll keep saying it
, but journaling is such acritical component.
I mean I have journals, journalentries going back to 2017 for
this podcast.
It's incredible 2017, that'seight years and we are now
(56:00):
launched, and it's I could say,you know, 2018, 19, 20,.
Every single year I could havedone something, but you know
God's timing and his purposesare always on time and I can see
it through journaling.
So why do I say journaling?
Because it builds faith.
(56:21):
It does.
It helps us not lose hope thatwhen we write the vision down
plainly, we can keep going backand leaning in and said God, you
said, you said you said, and ithelps bring clarity too right A
hundred percent To what?
Speaker 2 (56:34):
he is saying Exactly, exactly, so you can see the
patterns.
Speaker 1 (56:38):
Yeah, and then so we journal what the desires of our
hearts are, the visions from theLord.
We lean into his word to see,you know, what is the anchor of
scripture on the promise,because God's never going to
give a promise and not have hisword back it.
We can have a lot of humanaspirations, but if it's not
backed by the word of God, honey, you might want to run.
(57:00):
That's right.
And so we need to make surethat what we are desiring in our
heart aligns with God's word.
And then we got to pray it in.
You know, sometimes the actiontoo is prayer, and that doesn't
mean sometimes I think, we canuse prayer as an excuse.
I'm praying, I'm waiting forGod, I'm praying.
It's prayer and action Right.
(57:20):
Do what you know to do untilyou don't know what else to do.
You plan with God.
Speaker 2 (57:27):
Yeah, and I would.
I would encourage our listenersif you know you feel like God's
placed something on your heart,something stirring in your
spirit.
It's just a gentle reminderthat he doesn't expect you to
have it all figured out.
Speaker 1 (57:40):
Right.
Speaker 2 (57:40):
God rewards courage.
He rewards people who arewilling Just say yes, give it a
shot.
Rewards people who are willingjust say yes, give it a shot.
Amen, keep praying Journal onit.
It'll all become clear Exactly.
He will guide your steps andhe'll redirect them.
Speaker 1 (57:59):
If that's needed too, I love it.
It's just.
It goes back to trusting in him.
Yeah Right, I'm going to say itagain Trust in the Lord with
all your heart.
It's one of my favorites.
Lean not on your ownunderstanding and all your ways,
acknowledge him and he will setyour path straight.
He will, amen.
Let's go ahead and pray us out,please.
Okay, heavenly Father, we thankyou that you have created us
(58:23):
with purpose in mind, that yousaid that we are unique and we
are set apart, and that you haveplans to prosper us, to give us
hope in a future.
So, lord, as we faithfully takesteps to be in obedience to
your will, thank you that youpromise to establish our steps
(58:44):
perfectly straight, all for yourglory.
In the name of Jesus, we prayAmen.
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