October 21, 2025 • 47 mins
The storm never sends a warning. One day life hums along, the next you’re hit by a wave you didn’t see coming. We lean into a simple, sticky image—cows run from storms and suffer longer; buffalo run through storms and reach clear skies faster—and use it to reframe how we face pain. Together we unpack why avoidance feels safer, how fight, flight, freeze, and especially fawn keep us stuck, and why the familiar can become a padded prison that masquerades as peace.
From there, we move into the deeper work. We talk about the “sharper but shorter” pain of healing: pulling back the bandage, cleaning the wound, and letting God rebuild what trauma and disappointment tried to break. We explore secondary gain—the hidden payoffs that keep us wounded—and how pain can slip into identity if we’re not careful. Scripture anchors us: James 1 on perseverance, Romans 5 on character and hope, Romans 8 on redemption, and Isaiah 61 on beauty for ashes. Spurgeon’s insight on affliction shaping God’s best soldiers meets real-life stories—Mandela, Viktor Frankl, Bethany Hamilton, Ruth, Hannah, David and Saul—to show how surrender transforms suffering into strength.
We don’t leave this at theory. You’ll hear a practical mindset shift from excuse to fuel: pain as disqualifier vs pain as the place God qualifies you. We offer clear next steps—naming the wound, confessing the payoffs, forgiving those who never apologized, seeking wise counsel or therapy, journaling, and taking one small step each day. The question Jesus asked the man by the pool still stands: Do you want to be healed? Run into the storm. Meet God in the middle. Let your pain become a bridge to purpose.
If this conversation moved you, subscribe, share it with a friend, and leave a quick review to help others find hope and healing too.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:09):
Hello, my beautiful friend.
Hello.
Here we are back again.
We are.
It is October 14th, the daywe're recording.
Oh, big day.
It is a big day.
Last time we were together, wewere honoring the life of
Charlie Kirk, and today we arecelebrating his birthday.
Is that not crazy?
I didn't even put that together.
Yeah.
It's a big off-cycle session forus.
(00:32):
Wow.
Yeah.
So for our listeners, wetypically record at the crack of
dawn.
You know that.
And it will either typically bereally early on a Monday morning
or really early on a Fridaymorning.
Yeah.
And today it's Tuesday.
It's 5 30, almost 6 o'clock atnight.
And so totally off schedule.
But this is the only day thatworked for us to get back
(00:54):
together.
So God ordained it.
Right?
SPEAKER_03 (00:56):
Incredible.
SPEAKER_01 (00:57):
Yeah.
The other thing that's prettyincredible, I mentioned it
really briefly on the lastepisode, but today is also the
31st year anniversary of my AuntBonnie's heaven date.
Yep.
So she shares her heaven datewhere she went to be with the
Lord with Charlie Kirk'sbirthday, which is pretty
special because she was myspiritual mother, in effect.
(01:18):
Um, so this day already meant,you know, a lot to me.
And now with Charlie, it meanseven more to me.
And so much has happened sincethen.
So I heard you were on a littlegirls' cruise.
So were you, my friend.
Oh, that's right.
SPEAKER_02 (01:33):
I was.
Tell our list.
SPEAKER_03 (01:36):
We had 150 authentic women who came together to be
together, to grow, you know,spiritually, go deeper in
relationship with the Lord andwith each other.
And we went to Nassau and CocoBay and Coco Kay.
Oh, sorry.
Whatever.
SPEAKER_01 (01:56):
Let's be truthful.
Beautiful Caribbean island.
She's not a cruise lady.
She loved the community too.
SPEAKER_03 (02:03):
Born and done.
Yeah, maybe for me.
She loved the time of thecolour.
SPEAKER_01 (02:06):
She's a community of the women, yes.
Yes.
But I'm convincing her that sheneeds to give it another try
because I'm a cruise girl.
And albeit the ship was nicethat we were on, there's many
more out there to choose from.
I have heard.
I'm open.
I'm open.
Yes, but 150 ladies, we laughed,we just shared meals together.
(02:28):
We had so much fun.
We poured out so much, just loveon each other.
It was just amazing to see uhthe cliche of when women get
together, like that cliche notbe uh realized, where women can
get together and not hate oneach other and not gossip and
not be about the world'sbusiness, but be about the
Lord's business.
Amen.
Amen.
(02:48):
Amen.
And so next week, so go fromcruise to quiet to next week.
I'm going to Chicago.
Okay.
I get to see my grandson Noah,who's 18 months old already.
Actually, maybe a little bitolder now.
No, I think he's about 18months.
And I'm gonna see my mom and mybrother, who I haven't seen
forever.
I'm so excited.
SPEAKER_03 (03:08):
That's awesome.
SPEAKER_01 (03:09):
And of course, I'm gonna see my daughter and her
husband.
But next week's a family-filledweek for me.
How about you?
What do you got coming up?
I can't wait to hear about that.
SPEAKER_03 (03:17):
I have a little visit to my parents down on
Hilton Hood.
Um nice.
Not this weekend, but nextweekend.
So I'm looking forward to that.
It's a beautiful time of year tovisit and be on the beach and
whiskey can swim.
SPEAKER_02 (03:29):
I was just gonna say, your boy's going.
SPEAKER_01 (03:32):
I love it.
He loves it.
That's good.
Well, we have a lot to talkabout today.
So why don't you go ahead andkick us off?
What are we gonna talk about?
SPEAKER_03 (03:40):
Yeah, today we are talking about pain.
And just to kind of set thestage a little bit, you know, I
think something that we wouldall agree on is that pain always
has a way of showing upuninvited, right?
It doesn't call ahead, itdoesn't send you a text in
advance.
Um, it just kind of shows up.
(04:00):
And sometimes it shows up whenthings are going so well.
Like maybe you feel like God hasjust been stacking up kind of
blessing after blessing, and outof nowhere it's wham, you know,
and you're like, what the heckjust happened?
And then other times it shows upwhen you're already on your
(04:23):
knees, you know, already dealingwith all kinds of struggles.
And at that point, you're justkind of like, okay, cool, you
know, here's here's one morething, right?
But the thing that's absolutelytrue is none of us gets a pass
on pain.
That's right.
You know, every single one of usis gonna face it.
Um, but the question is, andthat's one of the things we're
(04:44):
gonna wrestle with today, iswhat do you do with that pain?
You know, do we let the paindefine us or do we let God use
it to refine us?
Because at the end of the day,it can either paralyze us or it
can propel us forward.
And so today we're gonna breakall that down and then check
this out.
(05:05):
Um, I think this is so funny,uh, certainly not
coincidentally.
Um, you know, we have all thosemoments, but literally
yesterday, my neighbor, whooften sends me spiritual things,
um, and he sends me mostly99.99%, it's political things
because we share the same uhviewpoint, but happens to send
me this video um that is aboutbuffalo and cows, okay, that I
(05:30):
have never heard of.
Um, but it couldn't have beenmore perfect on topic.
And so uh the way that it goesis both of those animals sense
when a storm is coming.
They can just, you know,instinctively feel it, right?
But here's the part where itgets wild is cows instantly take
(05:50):
off running.
They run away from the storm.
They actually try to outrun it,um, but inevitably the storm
always catches up to them.
So because they're running fromthe storm, they end up staying
in that storm longer.
And it's like this this cycle ofsort of terror and misery, and
they're afraid and they getexhausted, right?
(06:11):
But on the flip side, thebuffalo do the exact opposite.
They actually run directly intothe storm.
And of course, it's terrifyingin the moment, right?
Um, but it passes faster andthey come out stronger, they're
less shaken, they're more, youknow, sure.
And then the message went on tosay something like we are
(06:33):
currently raising a generationof cows, people who run from
pain.
Um, you know, we've spoken aboutthis in early episodes.
You know, we self-medicate, wenumb, we, you know, do
everything that we can to avoidthe hard stuff.
And the result is we never stoprunning.
And so we never stop hurting andwe never heal, right?
(06:55):
Um, but the buffalo kind ofteach us that the way is through
the storm.
And you and I both know and havespoken about it a million times
over, that that's exactly whereGod will meet us if we let Him,
right?
You know, not after it passes,not after you've cleaned up your
mess.
That's right.
Uh, but right when you're in themiddle of the storm.
SPEAKER_01 (07:15):
So and amen.
The faster you run into it, thefaster it's gonna be behind you.
And it's funny how we tend tothink the opposite.
We run and run and run, and thestorm just doesn't it doesn't
leave, it just chases us.
And so, yeah, we're gonna getinto it today.
A little bit of psychology,neuroscience, and a whole lot of
truth.
Amen.
Amen.
I love it.
I love it when it all comestogether.
(07:36):
You know, it all comes together.
It's that that littlethree-legged stool.
Uh-huh.
But the reality is, just likeyou said, we all have pain.
Yeah, pain knows everyone, andwe can either deal with it or we
can let it run us.
And so this notion of is yourpain holding you back is an
excuse for you to stay in thestatus quo.
(07:58):
Yep.
Status quo can actually be yourpain.
And I don't know that peopleactually pause and think about
that.
Good.
Or is your pain a source of fuelfor your growth?
So, pain is the one thing we allhave in common, and it is the
great equalizer.
SPEAKER_03 (08:14):
It sure is.
You're so right about that.
I mean, it doesn't care about,you know, your bank account or
what car you drive or what zipcode you live in, um, or even
your social media following,which seems so important these
days.
Yes.
You know, it doesn't matterwhether you're a billionaire CEO
on Wall Street or your singlemom with uh two kids, you know,
working two jobs, at the end ofthe day, we're all gonna
(08:36):
experience pain.
But the catch is is that pain isnever neutral, right?
Um, you know, you can't justhave it and then move on.
Pain is always gonna catch up tous, it's going to do something
to us, at least eventually.
Um, and so, you know, our choiceis will we allow it to shape us
(08:59):
in the dark or will we lean intoGod um and allow Him to use it
to sharpen us in the light?
SPEAKER_01 (09:07):
Yeah, amen.
There's so many people we see,right?
And you we can see it inourselves.
When we're walking around, wesee people angry.
They could be addicted tosomething, yeah, right?
Uh, they could have a need tocontrol the environment that
they're in.
SPEAKER_03 (09:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (09:20):
Or maybe their insecurity is constantly coming
to the forefront.
It could be that friend that'sconstantly sabotaging every
relationship.
They have a large circle offriends, and then all of a
sudden their friend circle goesto zero, and then they move on
to the next group.
Or maybe it's that boss whodoesn't know how to control his
temper.
The point is, is pain doesn'tstay bottled up inside.
(09:42):
Yeah, it has a way of pouringout of us, even if we don't want
it to.
And so the fact of the matter iswe can either deal with the pain
or not, and it's gonna be it'sgonna be a result in our
relationships, the health of ourrelationships around us, the
quality of those things.
One of my favorite theologiansof all times is Charles
(10:03):
Spurgeons.
He's known as the um preacherprince or something of that
nature.
SPEAKER_03 (10:08):
Do you know what I said?
A preacher prince.
SPEAKER_01 (10:11):
Yeah, that's not what he's called.
Hold on.
The preacher prince.
Let's see, what's he called?
A preacher preacher.
Prince of preachers, prince ofpreachers.
Is that the same difference?
So one of my favoritetheologians of all time is
Charles Spurgeon.
He's called the Prince ofPreachers.
And he was, you know, born inthe 1800s, and he was just
(10:32):
incredible.
And he taught so much on pain,he suffered throughout his
entire life with um a reallydeep, dark depression.
It was constantly this cloudthat chased him.
But yet he chose to lean intoChrist, and many of his works is
a result of that pain that hewas constantly in with the Lord.
(10:56):
And one of the things that um hesays, and I just love it, he
says, the Lord gets his bestsoldiers out of the highlands of
affliction.
And so when we think about that,some of the best soldiers out
there who are on fire for theLord have walked through some of
the deepest sources of pain.
(11:18):
And when we get into this, well,how do I know if I'm letting my
pain become an excuse?
Or how do I know if it'sactually fuel to grow me into
the future?
An excuse mindset willcontinually say, I can't grow
because I'm hurting.
Where a fuel mindset will say,I'm growing because I'm hurting,
(11:40):
and God is teaching me somethingI couldn't learn in my own
comfort.
It really mirrors James 1, 2through 4.
Count it all joy, for thetesting of your faith produces
the endurance.
SPEAKER_03 (11:53):
So good.
So good.
Um, my guy, my guy, my guy,Jordan Peterson, um, he says
that which you most need to findwill be found where you least
wish to look.
So it's exactly what you'rehitting on.
The places, the things, youknow, that we want to ignore, we
want to not deal with are thevery places that we have to lean
(12:17):
into and and address to actuallyset us free.
SPEAKER_02 (12:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (12:21):
Um, and you know, to your point, the Bible echoes
that too.
In Romans 5, 3 through 4, werejoice in our sufferings
because suffering producesendurance, endurance produces
character, and characterproduces hope.
So the translation is facewhatever it is that you're
avoiding, because what you dodgetoday will absolutely be waiting
(12:43):
for you tomorrow.
You know, pain is always gonnademand a voice.
You either deal with it or yourpain's gonna deal with you,
right?
But here's where it really getstricky.
Um, psychologically, and getinto some of the neuroscience
stuff that you love so much, ourbrains are pre-wired to avoid
pain.
(13:04):
So, you know, let's kind of diginto that, the psychology of
avoidance, um, because it's it'seasier to deal with our pain
once we understand where it'scoming from and that whole
principle of avoidance.
SPEAKER_01 (13:17):
Yeah, you said something really powerful.
I'm gonna hit a retweet on itreal quick.
Retweet, okay.
Retweet, even though Twitterdoesn't exist anymore.
Uh your pain will demand avoice.
Yeah.
And so psychologically, when wego to avoid it, it's still gonna
demand a voice to be heard.
Yeah, and so we've been familiarwith some of these things on
(13:39):
what does it mean to be insurvival mode?
But it's fight, flight, freeze,or fawn.
SPEAKER_03 (13:46):
Okay.
Hold on, you gotta explain fawn.
I think we've all heard fight,flight, or freeze, right?
But fawn is one that's a littleless talked about, and it's
really important because um itit's it's plays right into like
our natural human tendency.
So explain what what that means.
SPEAKER_01 (14:05):
Yeah, I call it uh when when someone says that
someone's a peacemaker, I'mlike, are they really a
peacemaker?
Or are they just pacifying asituation to diffuse the tension
in the room?
But it doesn't mean that theroot, it doesn't mean the
problem that's actually causingthe conflict to begin with has
been dealt with.
And so somebody who goes into adefault fawn is often seen as
(14:29):
someone who likes harmony and isa peacemaker.
But really, what they're doingis they're pacifying a person to
avoid continued conflict.
It's incredible.
SPEAKER_03 (14:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:42):
Because aren't we in that state just as a culture
right now?
We we have a we see a lot offight, we see a lot of flight,
but we also see a lot ofnarrative that waters down the
truth and waters down the gospelso much just to pacify whatever
side of the fence you're on.
It doesn't really matter.
But it's all about we in thewake of Charlie Kirk, how many
(15:05):
pastors sat silent on CharlieKirk because they were pacifying
the donor base in their church,yeah, as opposed to standing for
what is right.
And so just you know, that's ona very large scale.
But you know, I've I've playedfawn.
I'm typically more of a fighter.
I like to lean in and I'm anEnneagram aide if anybody out
(15:27):
there knows what that is.
Um, but I'm all about justice,and so I tend to lean in and
fight, and I'm gonna tearsomething down.
But there's absolutely timeswhere if I'm in a situation
where I feel intimidated, thatfawn mode is gonna kick in where
I'll just be a little bit morequiet to pacify the moment.
But this is the thing realizethat just even if you pacify in
(15:51):
the moment, you can still circleback and go back in to actually
resolve the underlying conflict.
SPEAKER_03 (15:56):
That's good.
Yeah.
Fawing um, you know, is is kindof the same wiring that keeps
that saves us in a crisis, butcan actually keep us stuck.
So, you know, another examplewould be like people don't stay
in toxic relationships or toxicjobs because they feel good.
Um, they do it because it feelsfamiliar and they're avoiding
(16:20):
the pain of healing, as youmentioned.
And our brain craves what itknows, even when what it knows
is misery, you know, and and sowe make the mistake of of
pacifying, uh justifying asituation that's actually pretty
painful and maybe evenmiserable.
And and we tell ourselves thatit's less painful to stay in the
(16:42):
misery that we know than toactually address uh it or leave,
you know, or heal.
SPEAKER_01 (16:49):
Yeah, it could actually be uh where you choose
to be employed too.
What is the environment, youknow, whether it be a
relationship that you'repersonally engaged with, that
takes a lot of time.
So it could be a best friend, itcould be uh a partner in life, a
spouse, someone you're dating,or it could be the work
relationship.
Yeah.
Or it could be where you'revolunteering.
(17:10):
Uh there could be things thatare keeping you locked,
something that's taking yourtime that's actually still a
toxic environment.
And so the question is, why areyou staying?
Yeah.
And it's typically because youfeel comfortable.
Yep.
Specifically, like with the job,it's easy to say, I'm collecting
a paycheck.
I know I'm being successful.
(17:31):
My performance reviews tell metime and time again.
But even if God is needing youto go somewhere else, he's
calling you out, the comfort ofthe known will keep you, you
know, from having God's best foryou.
The fear of failure, the fear ofnot being good enough to move
on.
So whatever that false narrativeis that's connected to some root
(17:52):
pain that's still permeating inyour heart, it's literally
keeping you stuck.
It's good.
SPEAKER_03 (17:58):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that's the first trap whereyour brain is clinging to the
things that feel familiar.
Brene Brown says people willchoose certainty over curiosity,
even when certainty is misery.
And sadly, it's so true, right?
At least when, at least when wehaven't done the work to get
healthy and we aren't connectedto God.
(18:20):
Um, and speaking of gettinghealthy, the second trap, um,
and this is where things kind ofgo a little bit deeper, um, is
when we're not just avoiding thepain that we're in, but we're
avoiding that pain of healing.
Um, because I thinkinstinctively we kind of know
that healing is painful uh inits own way, because it's a
(18:43):
little bit like tending to anopen wound, right?
You pull back the bandage, theskin hasn't grown over yet,
you're putting the alcohol swabon there, it stings, right?
Um, but it stings for a shorterperiod of time if we lean into
it.
It's kind of like surgerywithout anesthesia.
(19:04):
You gotta, you gotta be cut openbefore you can be put back
together again better.
Sorry, sorry, you can't unseethat, right?
Yeah, visually.
SPEAKER_01 (19:15):
Uh yes, yes.
It can be a challenge to faceyour trauma.
The the thing though is thehammer of uh affliction is meant
to shape us, it's not meant tocrush us, right?
Tweet, retweet that.
That's good.
Say that again.
The hammer of affliction ismeant to shape us, not shatter
us.
It's not meant to crush us.
Yeah.
And so that's the whole thing.
(19:36):
When suffering comes in or paincomes in, what it's really doing
is it's exposing the foundationwe're living our life upon.
It can expose idols that wehave, shaky foundations, or even
pride that's stuck in ourhearts.
Oftentimes, you know, forforgiveness or the lack of
(19:58):
forgiving is actually what'skeeping us trapped in pain.
And I think it's uh so easy toget caught up in the mindset
that if I forgive that person,it affirms that what they did to
me is okay.
It's it affirms what they did tome is the right behavior and
that I'm worthy of being treatedthat way.
(20:21):
Yeah.
And that's not what it's atabout at all.
Yeah.
But what God does want to showus is He wants to use that pain
to shape us, to build us up, tounderstand that the forgiveness
we received from Him on thecross is the same forgiveness
we're extending out.
It doesn't mean that we acceptor tolerate the same behaviors
(20:42):
coming in, but it is meant toshape us.
And the whole idea that when itgets to a place where we're
stuck, it's actually starting toshatter us.
And we need to wake up andrealize that we are under the
oppression of the pain that is,you know, again, what's meant to
shape us is actually starting tocrush us and shatter us.
SPEAKER_03 (21:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (21:04):
And that's the absence of dealing with pain
without God and dealing withpain with God.
SPEAKER_03 (21:10):
Yeah.
Yeah.
We spoke uh um on our our lastepisode about full circle
seasons and kind of recyclingsome of the same um kinds of
pain over and over again and howwe miss the opportunities for
growth and transformation.
You know, examples like uhdating the same person.
I spoke a little bit about thaton the last one over and over
(21:33):
again.
Um, you know, how it kind ofalways ends the same because you
haven't let God uh heal thereasons that you're attracted to
that person.
Um, you know, things like wekeep uh numbing, you know, with
food, with wine, uh, with sexpartners, addictive social, you
know, media scrolling, or evenin some cases, an inability just
(21:55):
to be alone with yourself.
Um, you know, and not because itsatisfies you, um, but because
it distracts you from having toask what is really going on
inside of my heart and my soul.
Um, and so it's not that thetoxic thing isn't painful, um,
because I think we all knowinstinctively that it is, but
(22:16):
it's pain that we've gotten usedto, you know, it's the devil you
know is a famous saying for areason, right?
Um, what we're really avoidingis the the sharper but shorter
pain of healing.
SPEAKER_01 (22:27):
Yeah, well, that's what you just the sharper and
the sh shorter pain of healing.
So the reality is the longer wehang on to pain, it's permanent.
Yeah.
It's permanent until we startdealing with it.
But when we navigate the paincycle of healing, it's
temporary, it's short, and it'sover.
It's in the rearview mirror.
We can actually start movingforward.
You know, there's actually apretty gross proverb, and yet
(22:48):
it's so beautiful when you getunderneath of it.
Proverbs 26, 11 says, as a redog returns to its own vomit, so
fools repeat their folly.
Can you imagine a dog returningto its own vomit and eating it
up?
It's total sidetrack here.
I actually had I've seen apuppy.
(23:10):
Okay.
I had a puppy who would go tothe bathroom and then go back
and eat its own feces.
Oh, yeah.
I just learned that it had amineral deficiency in the nuts.
But that's what we actually doto our soul when we keep going
(23:31):
back to that same pain.
I mean, how many times do yousee the cranky old man who's
crotchety and cantankerous?
It's like, you know, you yourheart breaks for him because
he's got years of pent-up painthat he's never dealt with.
And that's what we're talkingabout.
We don't want to wake up in oldage and realize that we were
(23:52):
returning to our own vomit everysingle day.
So good.
SPEAKER_03 (23:57):
And that's the moment that everything shifts
because you realize that stayingin the place that you are and
not dealing with it is actuallygonna cost you more than
stepping into the healing,which, you know, is kind of
uncertain and unknown, right?
But avoiding pain feels safe.
Um, because instinctively weknow healing hurts too.
(24:20):
But you gotta wrap your armsaround the fact that staying
stuck is so much harder thanleaning into the healing.
Um again, another famous saying,choose your heart.
It's famous for a reason, right?
If you continue to stay stuck inthese toxic cycles, I feel like
you'll end up on your deathbedwith nothing but regret.
(24:42):
And to me, I don't know aboutyou, but when I think of some of
the worst human emotions, regretis right up there, um, along
with shame, you know, that weneed to let God heal.
SPEAKER_01 (24:52):
Amen.
Amen.
And that's a that's actually asignal, right?
If there's regret in our heartthat we can't face, that's also
connected to pain.
So you know, be asking yourselfthat hard question.
But the familiarity of the paincan feel like freedom, but it's
not.
It's it's literally like apadded prison.
It's not free.
It's not free at all.
(25:13):
And so our brains may crave thefamiliar, but our soul wants to
be set free.
SPEAKER_03 (25:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (25:20):
Anyway.
SPEAKER_03 (25:22):
So we've talked about how pain is inevitable for
all of us, and we've also talkeda little bit about the
psychology behind it.
Now let's talk about that wholeconcept when pain becomes your
excuse, because this is theplace where we really get stuck.
Um, and what I mean by that isif we're not careful, pain can
(25:44):
quietly become our identity.
Um, when we start tellingourselves things like, you know,
this is just who I am.
Yeah, I've always been this way.
If you knew what happened to me,you'd be the same way.
Uh, I can't help it, you know,and the list goes on and on.
(26:04):
Um, and if we don't let God, youknow, do the healing work in us,
then pain is gonna give us a tonof reasons for why things are
the way that they are.
Um, and for a while, just likewhat'd you say, padded prison?
Um, it feels like protection,you know, but uh, and it also
lets us off the hook a littlebit to not deal with our our
(26:28):
pain.
So psychology, um, this is cool.
Psychology even has a name forthis too, and it's called
secondary gain.
Um, and what secondary gain is,is it's this hidden payoff that
we get from staying stuck.
Like maybe your pain gets youattention, you know, or your
(26:48):
pain gets you a bunch ofsympathy.
Um, maybe it gives you an excuseactually not to take risks.
Um, and it also could explainthings like why your
relationships always fail, andso you have an excuse not to
try, things like that.
Um, Dr.
Phil is actually really famousfor this.
Um, very early on, when he, youknow, started uh the online um
(27:14):
TV shows.
I can remember him reallypushing people to say, what is
your payoff?
People who would stay in thesetoxic cycles and help them
unpack the fact that they hadstill a payoff, or there's no
way they would continue downthat road, like attention, like
uh, you know, just gettingsomething out of the behavior.
(27:35):
Um, he talks a lot about it inone of my favorite books called
Life Strategies.
Um, so that's that's kind of thesting of secondary pain.
It's it's you realize that yourpain is costing you, um, but
you've convinced yourselfsomewhat, somehow, whether
consciously or subconsciously,that it's also rewarding you
too.
SPEAKER_01 (27:55):
Um I think it's important too to kind of look at
that.
Maybe it's not even foryourself, it's for a loved one
that you can see that they're ina cycle of being a victim of
their own actions and maybethey're they just don't have the
language or the courage or thethe tools and the tool belt to
(28:16):
help get themselves out of thesituation that they're in.
And so um part of it is I'veI've had real relationships in
my life where I've seen thesetypes of behaviors and I've kind
of slowed down and I've said,hey, uh where is this coming
from?
Yeah, and oftentimes peoplecan't even identify the pain
(28:39):
that's making them behave thatway because maybe they didn't
grow up to understand differentemotions.
And you know, I have one personwho told me that um their
behavior of anger was just theculmination of that's how they
expressed themselves becausethey didn't actually they didn't
know how to unpack how they werefeeling in the moment.
(29:01):
They couldn't label differentfeelings and everything just
kind of merged together.
Um, so I say all that to saythat you know what we're talking
about today is for usindependently to heal in our
pain.
And then also as we disciple thenations, like how can we have
eyes to see people's blindspots?
(29:21):
Because some of these things arereally hard to see.
And it takes someone who is atrusted, loving advisor to speak
into the heart of thatindividual.
Um, and believe it or not, wecan actually look at John 5 and
we see that Jesus comes on sceneand this man who's been ill for
over 38 years wants to behealed.
(29:42):
And he says, you know, if ifyou're willing, you can heal me.
And he goes, Well, if I'mwilling, he goes, really, do you
want to be healed?
And just if you just pause,yeah, if you kind of just pause,
ironically, uh, you know, wekind of fit this into.
Today's conversation, but I justwatched The Chosen.
(30:04):
Uh we, John and I, my husbandand I are going back and
watching season one, and we werewatching the episode where this
person's coming in to be healed.
Like I literally just watchedthis on The Chosen.
So I have this very vividvisualization of this scripture
in my head.
And it's just shocking to seehow physically sick this person
(30:26):
is.
And yet Jesus, in all hiswisdom, is saying, Do you really
want to be healed?
And that's kind of us.
Yeah.
We're carrying the suitcase ofpain around.
The suitcase is actually ourbody, and it's just kind of
lugging the, you know, the it'sall packed with the pain in the
baggage.
We're lugging it around, and hesays, You've been carrying this
(30:47):
for quite some time.
Are you really ready to let itgo?
Because all it takes is beliefand surrender that I am with
you.
SPEAKER_03 (30:55):
Yeah.
It's pretty, it's prettypowerful.
It's so good.
It's so good.
Yeah.
So, I mean, that's you're reallytalking about the crossroads
where you decide, you know, ispain going to be my permission
slip or my platform?
Am I going to keep clinging tothese excuses, you know, like a
badge of honor?
Or, you know, will I let Godtake this wound and turn it into
(31:19):
a weapon for healing and growthand freedom and uh a launch pad
into everything that God, youknow, intended for us to be.
SPEAKER_01 (31:28):
Yeah.
So we're going to move from ourpain that keeps us into excuse
mode to how does it actuallybecome the jet fuel that God
intends it to be?
Because really, when we walkthrough pain, we actually learn
spiritual authority.
So when we go into the pain withthe Lord, we gain spiritual
(31:49):
authority over that type ofpain.
And we literally get to see thefather's heart of what Jesus
bore on the cross.
And so if we truly want to livea life that radiates God's love
outward, this is where, and itshould, you know, as Christians,
our hearts desire is that we canbe the light to the world.
We want to be hope and we wantto be light.
(32:10):
Yeah.
But in order to do thateffectively, you have to have
the courage to say, okay, I havethis pain in my life.
I'm going to go into it with theLord, and I'm going to allow it
to be the fuel to heal that thenteaches me the spiritual
authority that I have.
Because none of us can actuallybear witness to the depths of
(32:30):
our Savior's love until we havefelt the measure of the sorrows
he bore for us.
And that's what it comes downto.
So excuses will stall us, butour pain surrendered, transforms
us.
Just like it says in Romans8.28, God says that he works all
things for good.
Not that all things are good,but that he can use the ugliest
(32:53):
moments in our life to write themost beautiful story.
Spurgeon often warned againstpampering self in the chamber of
ease.
He observed that when believersnurse their pain without
surrender, they stagnate.
But when they yield their painto God, God transforms them and
(33:14):
he follows right there withthem.
He actually takes Romans 8.28,Spurgeon, and he says it a
little bit differently.
We know that all things worktogether for the good, for good
to them that love God.
This includes the bitter as wellas the sweet, the hard as well
as the easy.
It's incredible.
So it's the emotional pain caneither become our throne where
(33:36):
self reigns or an altar whereGod can refine us.
SPEAKER_03 (33:40):
Yeah, that's so good.
I mean, here's some historicalexamples.
Um take Nelson Mandela, right?
Spent 27 years in prison andcame out to lead a nation into
reconciliation.
Um, I love Victor Frankel'sbook.
Have you read his book, Man'sSearch for Meaning?
SPEAKER_01 (33:58):
Yeah, well, funny.
Funny you should ask me thisquestion today.
I was having a I was having aconversation with uh one of my
peers at work, and he's talkingabout this book.
Oh he literally was talkingabout it, and I'm like, I don't
think I've ever read that book.
SPEAKER_02 (34:13):
So good.
SPEAKER_01 (34:13):
So it literally just got delivered to my house last
week.
Oh, yeah.
So I'm gonna be reading it.
SPEAKER_03 (34:17):
So he lost his entire family in Auschwitz and
went in, went on to write, youknow, that's a major
best-selling book, might haveeven won.
I'm sure it's from Ultra Prize.
Yeah, but it's changed millionsof lives.
Another one I think of isBethany Hamilton, um, who lost
her arm in a shark attack, Ithink when she was 13, and then
(34:38):
went on to become, you know,world-famous professional
surfer.
So again, you know, use yourpain, it will either propel you
or paralyze you.
SPEAKER_01 (34:47):
Yeah, and I I I even just boil it down to people that
I know in my life.
I think about my grandmother,and I've shared a little bit
about this in previous episodes.
But my grandmother, um, she hadthree children.
Her first son, Robbie, died in ahouse fire, you know, before he
was three years old.
I cannot even imagine, you know,trapped on the second floor and
they couldn't get to him.
Just if that's not enough todestroy his soul, I don't know
(35:10):
what is.
And then, you know, she lost myfather.
I mean, I was two and a half,three years old when my father
died.
And uh, so she had to bury hersecond son.
He was 26 years old.
And then she got MS and she wasrid into a wheelchair.
Wow, she actually drove an amigobecause she liked to scoot her,
(35:30):
she liked to be bees around, butthat just kind of shows you her
personality.
She didn't let her slow herdown.
I mean, she had the tenacity andthe grit and the love of the
Lord like nobody's business.
But it's through the afflictionthat she went through that she's
literally, in my mind's eye, sheis one of the greatest sources
of joy that I have ever known.
(35:52):
And yet she walked through somuch adversity.
And then, you know, we can so wecan go through big public
figures to people that we knowpersonally, and then you know,
you can look in the Bible andyou can see it literally from
Genesis to Revelation, all theseheroes of faith, where you could
start with Ruth.
Ruth, you know, the book ofRuth, it goes through her whole
(36:13):
story, but she lost her husbandand she was a widow, and she was
basically she could have beenleft for destitute.
And literally, hermother-in-law, Naomi, was like,
go back to your own peoplebecause she wasn't of Jewish
descent.
And she literally said to hermother-in-law, No, your people
will be my people and your God,my God.
(36:38):
And because she put her painaside, she dealt with her pain,
but she was faithful to the callof the Lord and she went with
her mother-in-law and she wasfaithful to her.
The Lord literally blessed herwith a second husband, Boaz.
We always hear the saying, I'mgonna pray for you to get a
Boaz.
Yeah.
I'm praying for you right now,Lisa.
(36:58):
Thank you very much.
Boaz.
Um, but the cool thing is thatthe lineage of Boaz, they had
Obed, who is the grandfather ofKing David, which is the lineage
line straight to Jesus Christ.
So it's like this crazy sourceof pain where Naomi, she
actually, Naomi lost herhusband, she lost her sons, she
(37:21):
lost everything.
And then her daughter-in-law wasstill there, and her
daughter-in-law's faithfulnessactually opened up the blend uh
the blessing to the messianicline.
It's just incredible.
And there's so many more.
You could talk about Hannah, whowas barren and she couldn't have
a baby, and she's heartbroken,and she cried out to the Lord,
and she was just, she bared itall.
And God did not look at her withuh disgust, he met her with
(37:46):
mercy, yeah, and he heard hercries and he responded.
Yeah, and she bore her sonSamuel, who became one of the
greatest prophets, and it justgoes on and on and on.
But the scripture is clear thatwhen we don't choose bitterness,
God intervenes, he heals, andthe blessings follow.
SPEAKER_03 (38:11):
Yeah, that's beautiful.
That's incredible.
There is story after story thatproves that it can either propel
you or bury you, you know, buildyou or bury you, um, become your
fuel.
SPEAKER_01 (38:22):
Well, you can look at Saul too, okay?
Saul is the antithesis of thevictors that we just talked
about, right?
Um, so we can talk about KingDavid, who was a king of Israel,
and he had the heart, his heartwas chasing after God, and he
just was just righteous in theeyes of the Lord, and he laid
his pain.
I mean, he had his David had hisson, Abalon, trying to I'm
(38:46):
probably saying his son's namewrong in this moment, but his
son literally was chasing himdown to kill him.
I don't know how much I can'timagine one of my children
wanting to kill me, but Davidwent through it.
He had to bury children, and youknow, he did his own mistakes,
but he he had his his his painand God was was there.
Saul took his pain and he becamebitter and jealous of David.
(39:08):
David served Saul faithfully.
SPEAKER_02 (39:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (39:11):
Even though Saul was chasing him down to kill him,
Saul, David had this heart wherehe wanted to protect him and
cover him and love him.
And we see Saul still wanting tokill him.
SPEAKER_03 (39:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (39:22):
Like he he just, it was just he operated from his
source of pain.
He never surrendered it to theLord.
So what was the end result?
He was killed.
Yeah.
Like God let him be killed inbattle, and he lost the throne
of Israel.
And David took the throne.
And so, to your point, callingit out, the pain can either it
(39:45):
can shatter us, yeah, but Godintends it to shape us.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (39:49):
Yeah, that that's that's so good.
Um, so let's let's keep diggingdeeper into where the faith
comes in, because you know, youcan read every psychology book
and listen to all the podcastsand master all the self-help,
you know, hacks.
But at the end of the day, realhealing, as you and I know,
takes God.
Um, you've mentioned Romans 8.28already.
(40:11):
I think God works all thingstogether for good for those who
love him.
Um, and he doesn't say that allthings are good, yeah.
Right?
Uh abuse isn't good, betrayal isnot good, um, you know, loss and
pain, none of that is good.
But somehow, in ways that wecan't see at the at the moment,
God will weave even the darkestthings into a story of
(40:33):
redemption.
SPEAKER_01 (40:34):
It's truly amazing.
I think uh that is the greatestexperience of the Lord.
SPEAKER_03 (40:39):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (40:40):
Is that when we wal walk through the trial and we're
faithfully journaling the trialbecause we're all journalers by
now, if we're listening to theDouble Dose Podcast.
If you have paid attention toAngelique, you are journaling.
We're all journaling.
But what's really cool is whenyou really look at what the Lord
does, yeah.
Uh it's it's never fun to be inthe valley.
(41:03):
But there is this sweetness ofthe valley when you actually
learn the art of surrender.
And you know, I I certainlyhaven't perfected it in my own
life, but my prayer is that letme get to the art of surrender
as fast as the pain comes in.
SPEAKER_02 (41:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (41:20):
Because as soon as we start to surrender, that's
where we can taste and see thegoodness of the Lord.
And it it could just be that wetaste and experience his mercy.
We taste and experience hiscomfort, his peace that
surpasses all understandingstarts to become the blanket
that's wrapped around us.
And so we're we're when we're inthe pit of pain and despair,
(41:43):
there is this supernatural peaceand comfort that just comes when
you surrender to the Lord.
SPEAKER_02 (41:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (41:52):
And quite frankly, I can testify in my life that the
sweetness is sweeter in thevalley than it is on the
mountaintop.
Agreed.
Right?
Yeah.
And so let the valley transformyou and take you up the
mountain.
SPEAKER_03 (42:11):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (42:12):
And then you're gonna realize that the valley
was really, really sweet becauseyou were with the Lord so
intimately in it.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (42:18):
Yeah.
Back to the scripture youmentioned earlier.
It's like Jesus is asking, Doyou want to be healed?
Right?
Because healing takes courage.
Um, it means you got to let goof all the excuses.
You have to forgive people, youknow, who never said they were
sorry.
Um, and you got to open up thoseold wounds and feel the sting of
(42:40):
that pain until it heals and newskin grows, right?
SPEAKER_01 (42:46):
That's right.
And there's no perfect path toget there.
You just have to have a willingheart that's ready to lay it out
before the Lord.
And it's if you don't have thewords to say, just say, Lord,
you know my heart.
You know my heart.
Give me the words, give me theunderstanding, help me
understand the pain that I'meven having.
Just again, there's no perfectway to go to the Lord.
(43:08):
It's literally teach me what Idon't understand.
And it's not just teach me yourways, it's teach me what I don't
understand about my own pain.
SPEAKER_03 (43:20):
Beautifully said.
Yeah.
So if you're if you're listeningtoday, you know, and you feel
that nudge and that stirring umin your spirit, in your heart,
you know, this might be Jesuswhispering to you, do you really
want to be healed?
SPEAKER_01 (43:34):
Yeah.
Let's do it.
Amen.
And I want to just summarizelike what are some of the
sayings we you we've talkedabout them throughout this
episode.
Yeah.
Just kind of summarizing forpeople as we go to put this into
next step actions, what couldyou be really just laying before
the Lord?
So, what does an excuse posturemindset say versus a fuel
(44:00):
posture mindset?
That's good.
Okay.
So an excuse posture will say,My pain disqualifies me.
A fuel posture says, My pain iswhere God qualifies me.
Okay.
Excuse, self-focus, bitterness,withdraw is the fruit.
(44:22):
Fuel, surrender, dependence, anda deeper intimacy with Christ.
Okay.
Excuse, pain is a barrier that'spreventing you.
Fuel, pain is a bridge togrowth.
Excuse, comfort is the goal.
You want to live in the land offamiliar.
(44:43):
Fuel, Christ-likeness is thegoal, which means you gotta go
through the transformation.
Excuse, blame, why me?
Fuel, purpose.
What is God forming in methrough this?
And that's kind of just the bigpicture takeaway.
(45:05):
Um it's good to see.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (45:08):
So, I mean, that's really what the summary is,
right?
Yeah, it's great.
And and just a reminder toeverybody, you don't have to
change your whole life in oneweek, right?
It's like take take one smallstep, you know, every every
single day.
Um and decide that pain is nolonger going to be, what did you
call it?
Your padded, padded prison.
Padded prison, yes.
(45:28):
And the promise in Isaiah 61says, God gives beauty for
ashes, joy for mourning, agarment of praise for a spirit
of despair.
And it's not just poetry, eventhough it sounds beautiful, um,
but it's a guarantee in terms ofwhat you're laying down, he's
gonna replace it with somethingbetter.
So, you know, stop, stoprunning, stop numbing, stop
(45:50):
making excuses and give it toGod.
SPEAKER_01 (45:53):
Yep.
Ask the hard questions, invitethem in, get the support that
you need, mentors, friends, gettherapy, right?
Just take one step that's gonnamove you closer to where God
needs you to be.
SPEAKER_03 (46:05):
And so often it's the very soil where where your
ultimate purpose grows.
SPEAKER_01 (46:10):
Amen.
Healing is possible.
Yeah, it's absolutely possible.
We are living, breathingtestimonies of the freedom that
is possible through Christ isabsolutely amazing.
SPEAKER_03 (46:19):
That's it.
SPEAKER_01 (46:20):
Um, so I think we're coming to the end here.
We are.
So, friends who are listeningout there, if you love this
episode, remember, please shareit with a friend.
We want to reach as many peopleas God allows with his hope and
light uh to really go makedisciples of the nations.
So share us on social media, shhave people, you know,
subscribe, like, do all thethings, you know, all the
(46:41):
things.
I always get so lost in all thethings that we can do today.
That's right.
But yeah, just uh thank you forlistening.
Absolutely.
You want to close us in prayer?
SPEAKER_03 (46:50):
I would love for you to.
SPEAKER_01 (46:52):
You do that rule reversal.
Should I ask Elisa about wherethat pain's at right now?
She wants me to pray.
I love that.
Okay.
Heavenly Father, we just loveyou and we are just so thankful
that you are just so intimateand so personal, just to meet us
exactly where we're at.
You're just so tender and filledwith mercy and gentle with our
(47:14):
pain, Lord, that we can approachyou and we can literally empty
our hearts before you and knowthat we are emptying it into
perfectly safe and beautiful,transforming hands.
So, Lord, I just thank you thatyou're stirring all the hearts
of the listeners and helpingthem have language and
understanding, to understand thedepths of where their pain is
(47:35):
hidden in their hearts.
And Lord, I just thank you thatyou will be gentle to bring it
forward for true healing, fortrue transformation, to lead
them exactly where you need themto be, to bring you glory and to
spread hope and lighteverywhere.
We love you.
In the name of Jesus, we pray.
Amen.
SPEAKER_03 (47:54):
Amen.
Hello, my beautiful friend.
Hello.
Here we are back again.
We are.
It is October 14th, the daywe're recording.
Oh, big day.
It is a big day.
Last time we were together, wewere honoring the life of
Charlie Kirk, and today we arecelebrating his birthday.
Is that not crazy?
I didn't even put that together.
Yeah.
It's a big off-cycle session forus.
(00:32):
Wow.
Yeah.
So for our listeners, wetypically record at the crack of
dawn.
You know that.
And it will either typically bereally early on a Monday morning
or really early on a Fridaymorning.
Yeah.
And today it's Tuesday.
It's 5 30, almost 6 o'clock atnight.
And so totally off schedule.
But this is the only day thatworked for us to get back
(00:54):
together.
So God ordained it.
Right?
SPEAKER_03 (00:56):
Incredible.
SPEAKER_01 (00:57):
Yeah.
The other thing that's prettyincredible, I mentioned it
really briefly on the lastepisode, but today is also the
31st year anniversary of my AuntBonnie's heaven date.
Yep.
So she shares her heaven datewhere she went to be with the
Lord with Charlie Kirk'sbirthday, which is pretty
special because she was myspiritual mother, in effect.
(01:18):
Um, so this day already meant,you know, a lot to me.
And now with Charlie, it meanseven more to me.
And so much has happened sincethen.
So I heard you were on a littlegirls' cruise.
So were you, my friend.
Oh, that's right.
SPEAKER_02 (01:33):
I was.
Tell our list.
SPEAKER_03 (01:36):
We had 150 authentic women who came together to be
together, to grow, you know,spiritually, go deeper in
relationship with the Lord andwith each other.
And we went to Nassau and CocoBay and Coco Kay.
Oh, sorry.
Whatever.
SPEAKER_01 (01:56):
Let's be truthful.
Beautiful Caribbean island.
She's not a cruise lady.
She loved the community too.
SPEAKER_03 (02:03):
Born and done.
Yeah, maybe for me.
She loved the time of thecolour.
SPEAKER_01 (02:06):
She's a community of the women, yes.
Yes.
But I'm convincing her that sheneeds to give it another try
because I'm a cruise girl.
And albeit the ship was nicethat we were on, there's many
more out there to choose from.
I have heard.
I'm open.
I'm open.
Yes, but 150 ladies, we laughed,we just shared meals together.
(02:28):
We had so much fun.
We poured out so much, just loveon each other.
It was just amazing to see uhthe cliche of when women get
together, like that cliche notbe uh realized, where women can
get together and not hate oneach other and not gossip and
not be about the world'sbusiness, but be about the
Lord's business.
Amen.
Amen.
(02:48):
Amen.
And so next week, so go fromcruise to quiet to next week.
I'm going to Chicago.
Okay.
I get to see my grandson Noah,who's 18 months old already.
Actually, maybe a little bitolder now.
No, I think he's about 18months.
And I'm gonna see my mom and mybrother, who I haven't seen
forever.
I'm so excited.
SPEAKER_03 (03:08):
That's awesome.
SPEAKER_01 (03:09):
And of course, I'm gonna see my daughter and her
husband.
But next week's a family-filledweek for me.
How about you?
What do you got coming up?
I can't wait to hear about that.
SPEAKER_03 (03:17):
I have a little visit to my parents down on
Hilton Hood.
Um nice.
Not this weekend, but nextweekend.
So I'm looking forward to that.
It's a beautiful time of year tovisit and be on the beach and
whiskey can swim.
SPEAKER_02 (03:29):
I was just gonna say, your boy's going.
SPEAKER_01 (03:32):
I love it.
He loves it.
That's good.
Well, we have a lot to talkabout today.
So why don't you go ahead andkick us off?
What are we gonna talk about?
SPEAKER_03 (03:40):
Yeah, today we are talking about pain.
And just to kind of set thestage a little bit, you know, I
think something that we wouldall agree on is that pain always
has a way of showing upuninvited, right?
It doesn't call ahead, itdoesn't send you a text in
advance.
Um, it just kind of shows up.
(04:00):
And sometimes it shows up whenthings are going so well.
Like maybe you feel like God hasjust been stacking up kind of
blessing after blessing, and outof nowhere it's wham, you know,
and you're like, what the heckjust happened?
And then other times it shows upwhen you're already on your
(04:23):
knees, you know, already dealingwith all kinds of struggles.
And at that point, you're justkind of like, okay, cool, you
know, here's here's one morething, right?
But the thing that's absolutelytrue is none of us gets a pass
on pain.
That's right.
You know, every single one of usis gonna face it.
Um, but the question is, andthat's one of the things we're
(04:44):
gonna wrestle with today, iswhat do you do with that pain?
You know, do we let the paindefine us or do we let God use
it to refine us?
Because at the end of the day,it can either paralyze us or it
can propel us forward.
And so today we're gonna breakall that down and then check
this out.
(05:05):
Um, I think this is so funny,uh, certainly not
coincidentally.
Um, you know, we have all thosemoments, but literally
yesterday, my neighbor, whooften sends me spiritual things,
um, and he sends me mostly99.99%, it's political things
because we share the same uhviewpoint, but happens to send
me this video um that is aboutbuffalo and cows, okay, that I
(05:30):
have never heard of.
Um, but it couldn't have beenmore perfect on topic.
And so uh the way that it goesis both of those animals sense
when a storm is coming.
They can just, you know,instinctively feel it, right?
But here's the part where itgets wild is cows instantly take
(05:50):
off running.
They run away from the storm.
They actually try to outrun it,um, but inevitably the storm
always catches up to them.
So because they're running fromthe storm, they end up staying
in that storm longer.
And it's like this this cycle ofsort of terror and misery, and
they're afraid and they getexhausted, right?
(06:11):
But on the flip side, thebuffalo do the exact opposite.
They actually run directly intothe storm.
And of course, it's terrifyingin the moment, right?
Um, but it passes faster andthey come out stronger, they're
less shaken, they're more, youknow, sure.
And then the message went on tosay something like we are
(06:33):
currently raising a generationof cows, people who run from
pain.
Um, you know, we've spoken aboutthis in early episodes.
You know, we self-medicate, wenumb, we, you know, do
everything that we can to avoidthe hard stuff.
And the result is we never stoprunning.
And so we never stop hurting andwe never heal, right?
(06:55):
Um, but the buffalo kind ofteach us that the way is through
the storm.
And you and I both know and havespoken about it a million times
over, that that's exactly whereGod will meet us if we let Him,
right?
You know, not after it passes,not after you've cleaned up your
mess.
That's right.
Uh, but right when you're in themiddle of the storm.
SPEAKER_01 (07:15):
So and amen.
The faster you run into it, thefaster it's gonna be behind you.
And it's funny how we tend tothink the opposite.
We run and run and run, and thestorm just doesn't it doesn't
leave, it just chases us.
And so, yeah, we're gonna getinto it today.
A little bit of psychology,neuroscience, and a whole lot of
truth.
Amen.
Amen.
I love it.
I love it when it all comestogether.
(07:36):
You know, it all comes together.
It's that that littlethree-legged stool.
Uh-huh.
But the reality is, just likeyou said, we all have pain.
Yeah, pain knows everyone, andwe can either deal with it or we
can let it run us.
And so this notion of is yourpain holding you back is an
excuse for you to stay in thestatus quo.
(07:58):
Yep.
Status quo can actually be yourpain.
And I don't know that peopleactually pause and think about
that.
Good.
Or is your pain a source of fuelfor your growth?
So, pain is the one thing we allhave in common, and it is the
great equalizer.
SPEAKER_03 (08:14):
It sure is.
You're so right about that.
I mean, it doesn't care about,you know, your bank account or
what car you drive or what zipcode you live in, um, or even
your social media following,which seems so important these
days.
Yes.
You know, it doesn't matterwhether you're a billionaire CEO
on Wall Street or your singlemom with uh two kids, you know,
working two jobs, at the end ofthe day, we're all gonna
(08:36):
experience pain.
But the catch is is that pain isnever neutral, right?
Um, you know, you can't justhave it and then move on.
Pain is always gonna catch up tous, it's going to do something
to us, at least eventually.
Um, and so, you know, our choiceis will we allow it to shape us
(08:59):
in the dark or will we lean intoGod um and allow Him to use it
to sharpen us in the light?
SPEAKER_01 (09:07):
Yeah, amen.
There's so many people we see,right?
And you we can see it inourselves.
When we're walking around, wesee people angry.
They could be addicted tosomething, yeah, right?
Uh, they could have a need tocontrol the environment that
they're in.
SPEAKER_03 (09:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (09:20):
Or maybe their insecurity is constantly coming
to the forefront.
It could be that friend that'sconstantly sabotaging every
relationship.
They have a large circle offriends, and then all of a
sudden their friend circle goesto zero, and then they move on
to the next group.
Or maybe it's that boss whodoesn't know how to control his
temper.
The point is, is pain doesn'tstay bottled up inside.
(09:42):
Yeah, it has a way of pouringout of us, even if we don't want
it to.
And so the fact of the matter iswe can either deal with the pain
or not, and it's gonna be it'sgonna be a result in our
relationships, the health of ourrelationships around us, the
quality of those things.
One of my favorite theologiansof all times is Charles
(10:03):
Spurgeons.
He's known as the um preacherprince or something of that
nature.
SPEAKER_03 (10:08):
Do you know what I said?
A preacher prince.
SPEAKER_01 (10:11):
Yeah, that's not what he's called.
Hold on.
The preacher prince.
Let's see, what's he called?
A preacher preacher.
Prince of preachers, prince ofpreachers.
Is that the same difference?
So one of my favoritetheologians of all time is
Charles Spurgeon.
He's called the Prince ofPreachers.
And he was, you know, born inthe 1800s, and he was just
(10:32):
incredible.
And he taught so much on pain,he suffered throughout his
entire life with um a reallydeep, dark depression.
It was constantly this cloudthat chased him.
But yet he chose to lean intoChrist, and many of his works is
a result of that pain that hewas constantly in with the Lord.
(10:56):
And one of the things that um hesays, and I just love it, he
says, the Lord gets his bestsoldiers out of the highlands of
affliction.
And so when we think about that,some of the best soldiers out
there who are on fire for theLord have walked through some of
the deepest sources of pain.
(11:18):
And when we get into this, well,how do I know if I'm letting my
pain become an excuse?
Or how do I know if it'sactually fuel to grow me into
the future?
An excuse mindset willcontinually say, I can't grow
because I'm hurting.
Where a fuel mindset will say,I'm growing because I'm hurting,
(11:40):
and God is teaching me somethingI couldn't learn in my own
comfort.
It really mirrors James 1, 2through 4.
Count it all joy, for thetesting of your faith produces
the endurance.
SPEAKER_03 (11:53):
So good.
So good.
Um, my guy, my guy, my guy,Jordan Peterson, um, he says
that which you most need to findwill be found where you least
wish to look.
So it's exactly what you'rehitting on.
The places, the things, youknow, that we want to ignore, we
want to not deal with are thevery places that we have to lean
(12:17):
into and and address to actuallyset us free.
SPEAKER_02 (12:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (12:21):
Um, and you know, to your point, the Bible echoes
that too.
In Romans 5, 3 through 4, werejoice in our sufferings
because suffering producesendurance, endurance produces
character, and characterproduces hope.
So the translation is facewhatever it is that you're
avoiding, because what you dodgetoday will absolutely be waiting
(12:43):
for you tomorrow.
You know, pain is always gonnademand a voice.
You either deal with it or yourpain's gonna deal with you,
right?
But here's where it really getstricky.
Um, psychologically, and getinto some of the neuroscience
stuff that you love so much, ourbrains are pre-wired to avoid
pain.
(13:04):
So, you know, let's kind of diginto that, the psychology of
avoidance, um, because it's it'seasier to deal with our pain
once we understand where it'scoming from and that whole
principle of avoidance.
SPEAKER_01 (13:17):
Yeah, you said something really powerful.
I'm gonna hit a retweet on itreal quick.
Retweet, okay.
Retweet, even though Twitterdoesn't exist anymore.
Uh your pain will demand avoice.
Yeah.
And so psychologically, when wego to avoid it, it's still gonna
demand a voice to be heard.
Yeah, and so we've been familiarwith some of these things on
(13:39):
what does it mean to be insurvival mode?
But it's fight, flight, freeze,or fawn.
SPEAKER_03 (13:46):
Okay.
Hold on, you gotta explain fawn.
I think we've all heard fight,flight, or freeze, right?
But fawn is one that's a littleless talked about, and it's
really important because um itit's it's plays right into like
our natural human tendency.
So explain what what that means.
SPEAKER_01 (14:05):
Yeah, I call it uh when when someone says that
someone's a peacemaker, I'mlike, are they really a
peacemaker?
Or are they just pacifying asituation to diffuse the tension
in the room?
But it doesn't mean that theroot, it doesn't mean the
problem that's actually causingthe conflict to begin with has
been dealt with.
And so somebody who goes into adefault fawn is often seen as
(14:29):
someone who likes harmony and isa peacemaker.
But really, what they're doingis they're pacifying a person to
avoid continued conflict.
It's incredible.
SPEAKER_03 (14:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:42):
Because aren't we in that state just as a culture
right now?
We we have a we see a lot offight, we see a lot of flight,
but we also see a lot ofnarrative that waters down the
truth and waters down the gospelso much just to pacify whatever
side of the fence you're on.
It doesn't really matter.
But it's all about we in thewake of Charlie Kirk, how many
(15:05):
pastors sat silent on CharlieKirk because they were pacifying
the donor base in their church,yeah, as opposed to standing for
what is right.
And so just you know, that's ona very large scale.
But you know, I've I've playedfawn.
I'm typically more of a fighter.
I like to lean in and I'm anEnneagram aide if anybody out
(15:27):
there knows what that is.
Um, but I'm all about justice,and so I tend to lean in and
fight, and I'm gonna tearsomething down.
But there's absolutely timeswhere if I'm in a situation
where I feel intimidated, thatfawn mode is gonna kick in where
I'll just be a little bit morequiet to pacify the moment.
But this is the thing realizethat just even if you pacify in
(15:51):
the moment, you can still circleback and go back in to actually
resolve the underlying conflict.
SPEAKER_03 (15:56):
That's good.
Yeah.
Fawing um, you know, is is kindof the same wiring that keeps
that saves us in a crisis, butcan actually keep us stuck.
So, you know, another examplewould be like people don't stay
in toxic relationships or toxicjobs because they feel good.
Um, they do it because it feelsfamiliar and they're avoiding
(16:20):
the pain of healing, as youmentioned.
And our brain craves what itknows, even when what it knows
is misery, you know, and and sowe make the mistake of of
pacifying, uh justifying asituation that's actually pretty
painful and maybe evenmiserable.
And and we tell ourselves thatit's less painful to stay in the
(16:42):
misery that we know than toactually address uh it or leave,
you know, or heal.
SPEAKER_01 (16:49):
Yeah, it could actually be uh where you choose
to be employed too.
What is the environment, youknow, whether it be a
relationship that you'repersonally engaged with, that
takes a lot of time.
So it could be a best friend, itcould be uh a partner in life, a
spouse, someone you're dating,or it could be the work
relationship.
Yeah.
Or it could be where you'revolunteering.
(17:10):
Uh there could be things thatare keeping you locked,
something that's taking yourtime that's actually still a
toxic environment.
And so the question is, why areyou staying?
Yeah.
And it's typically because youfeel comfortable.
Yep.
Specifically, like with the job,it's easy to say, I'm collecting
a paycheck.
I know I'm being successful.
(17:31):
My performance reviews tell metime and time again.
But even if God is needing youto go somewhere else, he's
calling you out, the comfort ofthe known will keep you, you
know, from having God's best foryou.
The fear of failure, the fear ofnot being good enough to move
on.
So whatever that false narrativeis that's connected to some root
(17:52):
pain that's still permeating inyour heart, it's literally
keeping you stuck.
It's good.
SPEAKER_03 (17:58):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that's the first trap whereyour brain is clinging to the
things that feel familiar.
Brene Brown says people willchoose certainty over curiosity,
even when certainty is misery.
And sadly, it's so true, right?
At least when, at least when wehaven't done the work to get
healthy and we aren't connectedto God.
(18:20):
Um, and speaking of gettinghealthy, the second trap, um,
and this is where things kind ofgo a little bit deeper, um, is
when we're not just avoiding thepain that we're in, but we're
avoiding that pain of healing.
Um, because I thinkinstinctively we kind of know
that healing is painful uh inits own way, because it's a
(18:43):
little bit like tending to anopen wound, right?
You pull back the bandage, theskin hasn't grown over yet,
you're putting the alcohol swabon there, it stings, right?
Um, but it stings for a shorterperiod of time if we lean into
it.
It's kind of like surgerywithout anesthesia.
(19:04):
You gotta, you gotta be cut openbefore you can be put back
together again better.
Sorry, sorry, you can't unseethat, right?
Yeah, visually.
SPEAKER_01 (19:15):
Uh yes, yes.
It can be a challenge to faceyour trauma.
The the thing though is thehammer of uh affliction is meant
to shape us, it's not meant tocrush us, right?
Tweet, retweet that.
That's good.
Say that again.
The hammer of affliction ismeant to shape us, not shatter
us.
It's not meant to crush us.
Yeah.
And so that's the whole thing.
(19:36):
When suffering comes in or paincomes in, what it's really doing
is it's exposing the foundationwe're living our life upon.
It can expose idols that wehave, shaky foundations, or even
pride that's stuck in ourhearts.
Oftentimes, you know, forforgiveness or the lack of
(19:58):
forgiving is actually what'skeeping us trapped in pain.
And I think it's uh so easy toget caught up in the mindset
that if I forgive that person,it affirms that what they did to
me is okay.
It's it affirms what they did tome is the right behavior and
that I'm worthy of being treatedthat way.
(20:21):
Yeah.
And that's not what it's atabout at all.
Yeah.
But what God does want to showus is He wants to use that pain
to shape us, to build us up, tounderstand that the forgiveness
we received from Him on thecross is the same forgiveness
we're extending out.
It doesn't mean that we acceptor tolerate the same behaviors
(20:42):
coming in, but it is meant toshape us.
And the whole idea that when itgets to a place where we're
stuck, it's actually starting toshatter us.
And we need to wake up andrealize that we are under the
oppression of the pain that is,you know, again, what's meant to
shape us is actually starting tocrush us and shatter us.
SPEAKER_03 (21:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (21:04):
And that's the absence of dealing with pain
without God and dealing withpain with God.
SPEAKER_03 (21:10):
Yeah.
Yeah.
We spoke uh um on our our lastepisode about full circle
seasons and kind of recyclingsome of the same um kinds of
pain over and over again and howwe miss the opportunities for
growth and transformation.
You know, examples like uhdating the same person.
I spoke a little bit about thaton the last one over and over
(21:33):
again.
Um, you know, how it kind ofalways ends the same because you
haven't let God uh heal thereasons that you're attracted to
that person.
Um, you know, things like wekeep uh numbing, you know, with
food, with wine, uh, with sexpartners, addictive social, you
know, media scrolling, or evenin some cases, an inability just
(21:55):
to be alone with yourself.
Um, you know, and not because itsatisfies you, um, but because
it distracts you from having toask what is really going on
inside of my heart and my soul.
Um, and so it's not that thetoxic thing isn't painful, um,
because I think we all knowinstinctively that it is, but
(22:16):
it's pain that we've gotten usedto, you know, it's the devil you
know is a famous saying for areason, right?
Um, what we're really avoidingis the the sharper but shorter
pain of healing.
SPEAKER_01 (22:27):
Yeah, well, that's what you just the sharper and
the sh shorter pain of healing.
So the reality is the longer wehang on to pain, it's permanent.
Yeah.
It's permanent until we startdealing with it.
But when we navigate the paincycle of healing, it's
temporary, it's short, and it'sover.
It's in the rearview mirror.
We can actually start movingforward.
You know, there's actually apretty gross proverb, and yet
(22:48):
it's so beautiful when you getunderneath of it.
Proverbs 26, 11 says, as a redog returns to its own vomit, so
fools repeat their folly.
Can you imagine a dog returningto its own vomit and eating it
up?
It's total sidetrack here.
I actually had I've seen apuppy.
(23:10):
Okay.
I had a puppy who would go tothe bathroom and then go back
and eat its own feces.
Oh, yeah.
I just learned that it had amineral deficiency in the nuts.
But that's what we actually doto our soul when we keep going
(23:31):
back to that same pain.
I mean, how many times do yousee the cranky old man who's
crotchety and cantankerous?
It's like, you know, you yourheart breaks for him because
he's got years of pent-up painthat he's never dealt with.
And that's what we're talkingabout.
We don't want to wake up in oldage and realize that we were
(23:52):
returning to our own vomit everysingle day.
So good.
SPEAKER_03 (23:57):
And that's the moment that everything shifts
because you realize that stayingin the place that you are and
not dealing with it is actuallygonna cost you more than
stepping into the healing,which, you know, is kind of
uncertain and unknown, right?
But avoiding pain feels safe.
Um, because instinctively weknow healing hurts too.
(24:20):
But you gotta wrap your armsaround the fact that staying
stuck is so much harder thanleaning into the healing.
Um again, another famous saying,choose your heart.
It's famous for a reason, right?
If you continue to stay stuck inthese toxic cycles, I feel like
you'll end up on your deathbedwith nothing but regret.
(24:42):
And to me, I don't know aboutyou, but when I think of some of
the worst human emotions, regretis right up there, um, along
with shame, you know, that weneed to let God heal.
SPEAKER_01 (24:52):
Amen.
Amen.
And that's a that's actually asignal, right?
If there's regret in our heartthat we can't face, that's also
connected to pain.
So you know, be asking yourselfthat hard question.
But the familiarity of the paincan feel like freedom, but it's
not.
It's it's literally like apadded prison.
It's not free.
It's not free at all.
(25:13):
And so our brains may crave thefamiliar, but our soul wants to
be set free.
SPEAKER_03 (25:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (25:20):
Anyway.
SPEAKER_03 (25:22):
So we've talked about how pain is inevitable for
all of us, and we've also talkeda little bit about the
psychology behind it.
Now let's talk about that wholeconcept when pain becomes your
excuse, because this is theplace where we really get stuck.
Um, and what I mean by that isif we're not careful, pain can
(25:44):
quietly become our identity.
Um, when we start tellingourselves things like, you know,
this is just who I am.
Yeah, I've always been this way.
If you knew what happened to me,you'd be the same way.
Uh, I can't help it, you know,and the list goes on and on.
(26:04):
Um, and if we don't let God, youknow, do the healing work in us,
then pain is gonna give us a tonof reasons for why things are
the way that they are.
Um, and for a while, just likewhat'd you say, padded prison?
Um, it feels like protection,you know, but uh, and it also
lets us off the hook a littlebit to not deal with our our
(26:28):
pain.
So psychology, um, this is cool.
Psychology even has a name forthis too, and it's called
secondary gain.
Um, and what secondary gain is,is it's this hidden payoff that
we get from staying stuck.
Like maybe your pain gets youattention, you know, or your
(26:48):
pain gets you a bunch ofsympathy.
Um, maybe it gives you an excuseactually not to take risks.
Um, and it also could explainthings like why your
relationships always fail, andso you have an excuse not to
try, things like that.
Um, Dr.
Phil is actually really famousfor this.
Um, very early on, when he, youknow, started uh the online um
(27:14):
TV shows.
I can remember him reallypushing people to say, what is
your payoff?
People who would stay in thesetoxic cycles and help them
unpack the fact that they hadstill a payoff, or there's no
way they would continue downthat road, like attention, like
uh, you know, just gettingsomething out of the behavior.
(27:35):
Um, he talks a lot about it inone of my favorite books called
Life Strategies.
Um, so that's that's kind of thesting of secondary pain.
It's it's you realize that yourpain is costing you, um, but
you've convinced yourselfsomewhat, somehow, whether
consciously or subconsciously,that it's also rewarding you
too.
SPEAKER_01 (27:55):
Um I think it's important too to kind of look at
that.
Maybe it's not even foryourself, it's for a loved one
that you can see that they're ina cycle of being a victim of
their own actions and maybethey're they just don't have the
language or the courage or thethe tools and the tool belt to
(28:16):
help get themselves out of thesituation that they're in.
And so um part of it is I'veI've had real relationships in
my life where I've seen thesetypes of behaviors and I've kind
of slowed down and I've said,hey, uh where is this coming
from?
Yeah, and oftentimes peoplecan't even identify the pain
(28:39):
that's making them behave thatway because maybe they didn't
grow up to understand differentemotions.
And you know, I have one personwho told me that um their
behavior of anger was just theculmination of that's how they
expressed themselves becausethey didn't actually they didn't
know how to unpack how they werefeeling in the moment.
(29:01):
They couldn't label differentfeelings and everything just
kind of merged together.
Um, so I say all that to saythat you know what we're talking
about today is for usindependently to heal in our
pain.
And then also as we disciple thenations, like how can we have
eyes to see people's blindspots?
(29:21):
Because some of these things arereally hard to see.
And it takes someone who is atrusted, loving advisor to speak
into the heart of thatindividual.
Um, and believe it or not, wecan actually look at John 5 and
we see that Jesus comes on sceneand this man who's been ill for
over 38 years wants to behealed.
(29:42):
And he says, you know, if ifyou're willing, you can heal me.
And he goes, Well, if I'mwilling, he goes, really, do you
want to be healed?
And just if you just pause,yeah, if you kind of just pause,
ironically, uh, you know, wekind of fit this into.
Today's conversation, but I justwatched The Chosen.
(30:04):
Uh we, John and I, my husbandand I are going back and
watching season one, and we werewatching the episode where this
person's coming in to be healed.
Like I literally just watchedthis on The Chosen.
So I have this very vividvisualization of this scripture
in my head.
And it's just shocking to seehow physically sick this person
(30:26):
is.
And yet Jesus, in all hiswisdom, is saying, Do you really
want to be healed?
And that's kind of us.
Yeah.
We're carrying the suitcase ofpain around.
The suitcase is actually ourbody, and it's just kind of
lugging the, you know, the it'sall packed with the pain in the
baggage.
We're lugging it around, and hesays, You've been carrying this
(30:47):
for quite some time.
Are you really ready to let itgo?
Because all it takes is beliefand surrender that I am with
you.
SPEAKER_03 (30:55):
Yeah.
It's pretty, it's prettypowerful.
It's so good.
It's so good.
Yeah.
So, I mean, that's you're reallytalking about the crossroads
where you decide, you know, ispain going to be my permission
slip or my platform?
Am I going to keep clinging tothese excuses, you know, like a
badge of honor?
Or, you know, will I let Godtake this wound and turn it into
(31:19):
a weapon for healing and growthand freedom and uh a launch pad
into everything that God, youknow, intended for us to be.
SPEAKER_01 (31:28):
Yeah.
So we're going to move from ourpain that keeps us into excuse
mode to how does it actuallybecome the jet fuel that God
intends it to be?
Because really, when we walkthrough pain, we actually learn
spiritual authority.
So when we go into the pain withthe Lord, we gain spiritual
(31:49):
authority over that type ofpain.
And we literally get to see thefather's heart of what Jesus
bore on the cross.
And so if we truly want to livea life that radiates God's love
outward, this is where, and itshould, you know, as Christians,
our hearts desire is that we canbe the light to the world.
We want to be hope and we wantto be light.
(32:10):
Yeah.
But in order to do thateffectively, you have to have
the courage to say, okay, I havethis pain in my life.
I'm going to go into it with theLord, and I'm going to allow it
to be the fuel to heal that thenteaches me the spiritual
authority that I have.
Because none of us can actuallybear witness to the depths of
(32:30):
our Savior's love until we havefelt the measure of the sorrows
he bore for us.
And that's what it comes downto.
So excuses will stall us, butour pain surrendered, transforms
us.
Just like it says in Romans8.28, God says that he works all
things for good.
Not that all things are good,but that he can use the ugliest
(32:53):
moments in our life to write themost beautiful story.
Spurgeon often warned againstpampering self in the chamber of
ease.
He observed that when believersnurse their pain without
surrender, they stagnate.
But when they yield their painto God, God transforms them and
(33:14):
he follows right there withthem.
He actually takes Romans 8.28,Spurgeon, and he says it a
little bit differently.
We know that all things worktogether for the good, for good
to them that love God.
This includes the bitter as wellas the sweet, the hard as well
as the easy.
It's incredible.
So it's the emotional pain caneither become our throne where
(33:36):
self reigns or an altar whereGod can refine us.
SPEAKER_03 (33:40):
Yeah, that's so good.
I mean, here's some historicalexamples.
Um take Nelson Mandela, right?
Spent 27 years in prison andcame out to lead a nation into
reconciliation.
Um, I love Victor Frankel'sbook.
Have you read his book, Man'sSearch for Meaning?
SPEAKER_01 (33:58):
Yeah, well, funny.
Funny you should ask me thisquestion today.
I was having a I was having aconversation with uh one of my
peers at work, and he's talkingabout this book.
Oh he literally was talkingabout it, and I'm like, I don't
think I've ever read that book.
SPEAKER_02 (34:13):
So good.
SPEAKER_01 (34:13):
So it literally just got delivered to my house last
week.
Oh, yeah.
So I'm gonna be reading it.
SPEAKER_03 (34:17):
So he lost his entire family in Auschwitz and
went in, went on to write, youknow, that's a major
best-selling book, might haveeven won.
I'm sure it's from Ultra Prize.
Yeah, but it's changed millionsof lives.
Another one I think of isBethany Hamilton, um, who lost
her arm in a shark attack, Ithink when she was 13, and then
(34:38):
went on to become, you know,world-famous professional
surfer.
So again, you know, use yourpain, it will either propel you
or paralyze you.
SPEAKER_01 (34:47):
Yeah, and I I I even just boil it down to people that
I know in my life.
I think about my grandmother,and I've shared a little bit
about this in previous episodes.
But my grandmother, um, she hadthree children.
Her first son, Robbie, died in ahouse fire, you know, before he
was three years old.
I cannot even imagine, you know,trapped on the second floor and
they couldn't get to him.
Just if that's not enough todestroy his soul, I don't know
(35:10):
what is.
And then, you know, she lost myfather.
I mean, I was two and a half,three years old when my father
died.
And uh, so she had to bury hersecond son.
He was 26 years old.
And then she got MS and she wasrid into a wheelchair.
Wow, she actually drove an amigobecause she liked to scoot her,
(35:30):
she liked to be bees around, butthat just kind of shows you her
personality.
She didn't let her slow herdown.
I mean, she had the tenacity andthe grit and the love of the
Lord like nobody's business.
But it's through the afflictionthat she went through that she's
literally, in my mind's eye, sheis one of the greatest sources
of joy that I have ever known.
(35:52):
And yet she walked through somuch adversity.
And then, you know, we can so wecan go through big public
figures to people that we knowpersonally, and then you know,
you can look in the Bible andyou can see it literally from
Genesis to Revelation, all theseheroes of faith, where you could
start with Ruth.
Ruth, you know, the book ofRuth, it goes through her whole
(36:13):
story, but she lost her husbandand she was a widow, and she was
basically she could have beenleft for destitute.
And literally, hermother-in-law, Naomi, was like,
go back to your own peoplebecause she wasn't of Jewish
descent.
And she literally said to hermother-in-law, No, your people
will be my people and your God,my God.
(36:38):
And because she put her painaside, she dealt with her pain,
but she was faithful to the callof the Lord and she went with
her mother-in-law and she wasfaithful to her.
The Lord literally blessed herwith a second husband, Boaz.
We always hear the saying, I'mgonna pray for you to get a
Boaz.
Yeah.
I'm praying for you right now,Lisa.
(36:58):
Thank you very much.
Boaz.
Um, but the cool thing is thatthe lineage of Boaz, they had
Obed, who is the grandfather ofKing David, which is the lineage
line straight to Jesus Christ.
So it's like this crazy sourceof pain where Naomi, she
actually, Naomi lost herhusband, she lost her sons, she
(37:21):
lost everything.
And then her daughter-in-law wasstill there, and her
daughter-in-law's faithfulnessactually opened up the blend uh
the blessing to the messianicline.
It's just incredible.
And there's so many more.
You could talk about Hannah, whowas barren and she couldn't have
a baby, and she's heartbroken,and she cried out to the Lord,
and she was just, she bared itall.
And God did not look at her withuh disgust, he met her with
(37:46):
mercy, yeah, and he heard hercries and he responded.
Yeah, and she bore her sonSamuel, who became one of the
greatest prophets, and it justgoes on and on and on.
But the scripture is clear thatwhen we don't choose bitterness,
God intervenes, he heals, andthe blessings follow.
SPEAKER_03 (38:11):
Yeah, that's beautiful.
That's incredible.
There is story after story thatproves that it can either propel
you or bury you, you know, buildyou or bury you, um, become your
fuel.
SPEAKER_01 (38:22):
Well, you can look at Saul too, okay?
Saul is the antithesis of thevictors that we just talked
about, right?
Um, so we can talk about KingDavid, who was a king of Israel,
and he had the heart, his heartwas chasing after God, and he
just was just righteous in theeyes of the Lord, and he laid
his pain.
I mean, he had his David had hisson, Abalon, trying to I'm
(38:46):
probably saying his son's namewrong in this moment, but his
son literally was chasing himdown to kill him.
I don't know how much I can'timagine one of my children
wanting to kill me, but Davidwent through it.
He had to bury children, and youknow, he did his own mistakes,
but he he had his his his painand God was was there.
Saul took his pain and he becamebitter and jealous of David.
(39:08):
David served Saul faithfully.
SPEAKER_02 (39:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (39:11):
Even though Saul was chasing him down to kill him,
Saul, David had this heart wherehe wanted to protect him and
cover him and love him.
And we see Saul still wanting tokill him.
SPEAKER_03 (39:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (39:22):
Like he he just, it was just he operated from his
source of pain.
He never surrendered it to theLord.
So what was the end result?
He was killed.
Yeah.
Like God let him be killed inbattle, and he lost the throne
of Israel.
And David took the throne.
And so, to your point, callingit out, the pain can either it
(39:45):
can shatter us, yeah, but Godintends it to shape us.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (39:49):
Yeah, that that's that's so good.
Um, so let's let's keep diggingdeeper into where the faith
comes in, because you know, youcan read every psychology book
and listen to all the podcastsand master all the self-help,
you know, hacks.
But at the end of the day, realhealing, as you and I know,
takes God.
Um, you've mentioned Romans 8.28already.
(40:11):
I think God works all thingstogether for good for those who
love him.
Um, and he doesn't say that allthings are good, yeah.
Right?
Uh abuse isn't good, betrayal isnot good, um, you know, loss and
pain, none of that is good.
But somehow, in ways that wecan't see at the at the moment,
God will weave even the darkestthings into a story of
(40:33):
redemption.
SPEAKER_01 (40:34):
It's truly amazing.
I think uh that is the greatestexperience of the Lord.
SPEAKER_03 (40:39):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (40:40):
Is that when we wal walk through the trial and we're
faithfully journaling the trialbecause we're all journalers by
now, if we're listening to theDouble Dose Podcast.
If you have paid attention toAngelique, you are journaling.
We're all journaling.
But what's really cool is whenyou really look at what the Lord
does, yeah.
Uh it's it's never fun to be inthe valley.
(41:03):
But there is this sweetness ofthe valley when you actually
learn the art of surrender.
And you know, I I certainlyhaven't perfected it in my own
life, but my prayer is that letme get to the art of surrender
as fast as the pain comes in.
SPEAKER_02 (41:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (41:20):
Because as soon as we start to surrender, that's
where we can taste and see thegoodness of the Lord.
And it it could just be that wetaste and experience his mercy.
We taste and experience hiscomfort, his peace that
surpasses all understandingstarts to become the blanket
that's wrapped around us.
And so we're we're when we're inthe pit of pain and despair,
(41:43):
there is this supernatural peaceand comfort that just comes when
you surrender to the Lord.
SPEAKER_02 (41:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (41:52):
And quite frankly, I can testify in my life that the
sweetness is sweeter in thevalley than it is on the
mountaintop.
Agreed.
Right?
Yeah.
And so let the valley transformyou and take you up the
mountain.
SPEAKER_03 (42:11):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (42:12):
And then you're gonna realize that the valley
was really, really sweet becauseyou were with the Lord so
intimately in it.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (42:18):
Yeah.
Back to the scripture youmentioned earlier.
It's like Jesus is asking, Doyou want to be healed?
Right?
Because healing takes courage.
Um, it means you got to let goof all the excuses.
You have to forgive people, youknow, who never said they were
sorry.
Um, and you got to open up thoseold wounds and feel the sting of
(42:40):
that pain until it heals and newskin grows, right?
SPEAKER_01 (42:46):
That's right.
And there's no perfect path toget there.
You just have to have a willingheart that's ready to lay it out
before the Lord.
And it's if you don't have thewords to say, just say, Lord,
you know my heart.
You know my heart.
Give me the words, give me theunderstanding, help me
understand the pain that I'meven having.
Just again, there's no perfectway to go to the Lord.
(43:08):
It's literally teach me what Idon't understand.
And it's not just teach me yourways, it's teach me what I don't
understand about my own pain.
SPEAKER_03 (43:20):
Beautifully said.
Yeah.
So if you're if you're listeningtoday, you know, and you feel
that nudge and that stirring umin your spirit, in your heart,
you know, this might be Jesuswhispering to you, do you really
want to be healed?
SPEAKER_01 (43:34):
Yeah.
Let's do it.
Amen.
And I want to just summarizelike what are some of the
sayings we you we've talkedabout them throughout this
episode.
Yeah.
Just kind of summarizing forpeople as we go to put this into
next step actions, what couldyou be really just laying before
the Lord?
So, what does an excuse posturemindset say versus a fuel
(44:00):
posture mindset?
That's good.
Okay.
So an excuse posture will say,My pain disqualifies me.
A fuel posture says, My pain iswhere God qualifies me.
Okay.
Excuse, self-focus, bitterness,withdraw is the fruit.
(44:22):
Fuel, surrender, dependence, anda deeper intimacy with Christ.
Okay.
Excuse, pain is a barrier that'spreventing you.
Fuel, pain is a bridge togrowth.
Excuse, comfort is the goal.
You want to live in the land offamiliar.
(44:43):
Fuel, Christ-likeness is thegoal, which means you gotta go
through the transformation.
Excuse, blame, why me?
Fuel, purpose.
What is God forming in methrough this?
And that's kind of just the bigpicture takeaway.
(45:05):
Um it's good to see.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (45:08):
So, I mean, that's really what the summary is,
right?
Yeah, it's great.
And and just a reminder toeverybody, you don't have to
change your whole life in oneweek, right?
It's like take take one smallstep, you know, every every
single day.
Um and decide that pain is nolonger going to be, what did you
call it?
Your padded, padded prison.
Padded prison, yes.
(45:28):
And the promise in Isaiah 61says, God gives beauty for
ashes, joy for mourning, agarment of praise for a spirit
of despair.
And it's not just poetry, eventhough it sounds beautiful, um,
but it's a guarantee in terms ofwhat you're laying down, he's
gonna replace it with somethingbetter.
So, you know, stop, stoprunning, stop numbing, stop
(45:50):
making excuses and give it toGod.
SPEAKER_01 (45:53):
Yep.
Ask the hard questions, invitethem in, get the support that
you need, mentors, friends, gettherapy, right?
Just take one step that's gonnamove you closer to where God
needs you to be.
SPEAKER_03 (46:05):
And so often it's the very soil where where your
ultimate purpose grows.
SPEAKER_01 (46:10):
Amen.
Healing is possible.
Yeah, it's absolutely possible.
We are living, breathingtestimonies of the freedom that
is possible through Christ isabsolutely amazing.
SPEAKER_03 (46:19):
That's it.
SPEAKER_01 (46:20):
Um, so I think we're coming to the end here.
We are.
So, friends who are listeningout there, if you love this
episode, remember, please shareit with a friend.
We want to reach as many peopleas God allows with his hope and
light uh to really go makedisciples of the nations.
So share us on social media, shhave people, you know,
subscribe, like, do all thethings, you know, all the
(46:41):
things.
I always get so lost in all thethings that we can do today.
That's right.
But yeah, just uh thank you forlistening.
Absolutely.
You want to close us in prayer?
SPEAKER_03 (46:50):
I would love for you to.
SPEAKER_01 (46:52):
You do that rule reversal.
Should I ask Elisa about wherethat pain's at right now?
She wants me to pray.
I love that.
Okay.
Heavenly Father, we just loveyou and we are just so thankful
that you are just so intimateand so personal, just to meet us
exactly where we're at.
You're just so tender and filledwith mercy and gentle with our
(47:14):
pain, Lord, that we can approachyou and we can literally empty
our hearts before you and knowthat we are emptying it into
perfectly safe and beautiful,transforming hands.
So, Lord, I just thank you thatyou're stirring all the hearts
of the listeners and helpingthem have language and
understanding, to understand thedepths of where their pain is
(47:35):
hidden in their hearts.
And Lord, I just thank you thatyou will be gentle to bring it
forward for true healing, fortrue transformation, to lead
them exactly where you need themto be, to bring you glory and to
spread hope and lighteverywhere.
We love you.
In the name of Jesus, we pray.
Amen.
SPEAKER_03 (47:54):
Amen.
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