S4 E10: Overcoming and Disarming Narcissists

Episode Transcript
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This week on the DonoBox podcast, we talk about narcissism, how to disarm narcissists and the

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narcissists we've dealt with in our lives. And we might have a guest feature from Chris's upstairs
neighbors playing UFC, body slamming each other and doing MMA. Just like last week, we've heard
them a little bit, but we might hear them again all on this week of the DonoBox podcast. Let's roll
the intro. Hi, I'm Micah. And I'm Chris. And we've been friends for over 20 years. Surprisingly,

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we haven't killed each other yet. Years ago, we started our own variety show and it's now that
we're adults, we decided to give it another try. And you know what it says like in the movie,
life is like a box of donuts. You never know which one's going to be the next one.
Wait a second. It's chocolates. Life is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're

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going to get. Oh, right. Okay. Well, let's start the show. This is the DonoBox podcast. Well,
buddy, it's another week, another great episode, man. I'm so excited. We are officially season four
episode 10. Man, we've hit double digits in this season. That's wild to me. It's crazy that we're

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three years in 10 episodes out of three years. That's crazy. We really appreciate all of our
listeners out there are DonoBox OGs and that group is growing ever steadily. Man, I mean,
our YouTube is popping off a little bit here. We're starting to gain some subscribers on that end.
And the numbers on the audio end are fantastic. So we can't thank you guys enough from all over

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the country, all over the world. We never thought that it would get to this point. And we're just
getting started, man. So we're really, really grateful. But man, as you alluded to it in the
beginning of this episode, we have a great, great episode for you. A lot of life experiences that
we're going to share with you and really just some hopefully some advice for some of you guys if

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you're going through some of those situations. But man, you want to talk more about what we're
going to talk about today? Yeah. So we have talked a little bit about this and other episodes. And
so we were talking about this this week and we talked about this on the, on a long drive that
we just took, but we're talking about narcissism, kind of some narcissists that we have dealt with
in our lives disarming narcissism. Because when you talk about narcissism, I feel like that's,

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that term is a lot of times overused. And let's, let's be honest, everyone to some degree is
narcissistic. Okay. So everyone is self-centric because I heard this illustration when you look
at a photo that you're in, you automatically look for who first yourself, right? And so I think
everybody to some degree has some narcissism. Now the question I want to start with before we get

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into like the experiences and all that stuff, do you think that there are spectrums of narcissism?
And do you think that narcissism, if like, if you're a narcissist, do you think that that can be
helped and overcome? You know, I want to answer that question and say, I think there is, I'm still

(03:09):
kind of in the discovery stage because if we're being honest, it's just been a few years since
I've realized that some of these people in my life were narcissism or narcissists, I'm sorry,
and have narcissism. What that term truly means because again, like you said, it is a term that
is very overused and people go, oh, you're a narcissist. And it also can be used to gaslight

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people and say, oh, you're being narcissistic and you have narcissistic tendencies. Again,
Chris says, yeah, you do. But when we're talking about full blown narcissism, we're talking about
people who want to be in absolute control of every bit of your life. And we're talking about people
who are, you know, if they were diagnosed by a medical professional, yes, narcissistic

(03:57):
tendencies, do I believe there's a spectrum that I don't know. And it's just because we're, personally,
I'm still in that discovery process of understanding just a few years in of, okay, these people are
narcissists. So to me, at this point, and maybe ask me in a few years and it might be different,
but at this point, I feel like, yes, some people have narcissistic tendencies, but if you are a

(04:19):
narcissist, it is like a zero to 100 experience. It's either you are not a narcissist or you are
a narcissist. So when you talk about a spectrum, I don't necessarily think so. I think that full
blown narcissism is on its own, it's on its own plane. It's way over here personally. That's what

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I think. How about yourself? If you, if you think people do have narcissistic tendencies and they
are self aware, right? Like you be like, Oh, wow, like I do notice that when I talk, I do tend to
turn the conversation about me and you become aware. Do you think that can be helped? Do you
think people can work on that? Now we're going to delve into full blown narcissism here and a

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little bit, but like, do you think that that can be helped and worked on and all that?
Absolutely. And reason being is because, so I believe, and you've known me for years. So as we
alluded to in the intro here, we've been friends for over 20 years. You've seen that even I had
narcissistic tendencies, but a lot of that had to do is because I was in close contact with a

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narcissist and I believe that narcissism really spreads to other people. Whenever it's there
within a person and they are a full blown narcissist, it is hard not to have that pot overflow
per se, right? And so it overflows to everybody else. And so everybody else starts having these
narcissistic tendencies because when you're in a narcissistic situation, the typical thing that

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tends to happen, or at least in my experience, it's happened is you look up to that narcissistic
person and you think that all their ideals and values are absolutely right. And you think that
that, Hey, I need to follow. Yep. Right. That is, that is the gospel truth. I need to follow what
this person is saying because they're absolutely right. And so you start having these narcissistic

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tendencies as well. And like Chris said, we'll get into more of those things and kind of those
triggers and some of the things that I followed along with. And I know Chris probably followed
along with based on the things that these people have said, I do think that it's hard because
just because you have narcissistic tendencies, that just means that maybe you're in touch with

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somebody who is a narcissist and you have bought into their ideals for the time being.
Yeah. And it's really hard to recognize a full blown narcissist at first, if you have not been
around a lot of them and Mike and I have been around a lot of them. So I'm not saying I can
identify them like that, but like when you're in that and we're going to, I'm going to segue into

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your experience, right? So kind of setting up some backstory and Mike and I were both raised to be
very, at least I was raised to be a very trusting person. What people tell you is the truth. Absolutely.
And you believe that. So when someone would tell me something, and even to this day, I still find
myself, if someone tells me something, I give them benefit out and I believe that. So, Micah,

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do you want to go ahead? I'm going to let you kick us off. Whatever you want to share about
growing up with that, dealing with that, whatever you want to share.
Yeah, absolutely. So my father was a narcissist. We'll just go ahead and start there. He was a full
blown narcissist. And the things that he would say, and you know, I'm going to go ahead and start

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off in these points because these are moments that you are sitting here and for people like myself
who are very trusting Chris alluded to, we were raised to be very trusting. I was also raised
to be very trusting. And also, I think part of that had to do with also my grandparents,
they lived in a different time. People trusted people way differently in my grandparents'

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generations than they did now. I mean, you can't really, the feeling now is you can't trust a whole
lot of people. You can't even answer the phone. I was talking to some elderly people today,
and they were just so frustrated like you can't even answer the phone for random phone numbers
anymore and things like that used to be, and that is why they fall for so many scams and things is

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because there was so much more of a trusting generation. It was so much more of a trusting
time. Whoever is calling you and says, Hey, this is who I am. And this is what is their word was
their word and they were going to keep their word. And we live in a time where that is vastly
different. That's one thing, but we were raised in a very old school environment. And so I feel

(08:48):
that that old school environment again was okay, you can trust people at their word. So what they
are saying is the truth and what they're saying is what they mean. And that is what it is. Now,
on the contrary, growing up with a father who was a narcissist, he gave me a roadmap of everything
that he was thinking in his mind and things like that. One of the biggest things that he taught me

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that really sticks to my mind of and I don't live this way and I see absolutely the opposite end of
this way, but he would tell me all the time, listen, Micah, it is your world and everybody
else is privileged to be around you. And that is how you have to think. And that is absolutely
wrong. The further that I went into life, the understanding was right. The opposite of I am

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really, really blessed to be around the people that I am around and God has blessed me to be
around the people who I'm supposed to be around. And he's blessed to have shown me the people that
I'm not supposed to be around. And so the thought of, okay, everybody's blessed to be around you
and you're the greatest things in sliced bread. Chris will tell you that is how I was raised.

(10:01):
And for a long time, I had a very big complex of wanting to be the center of attention and to be
very known because listen, I'm the pride and joy. I'm and it didn't also help. I think that I was
also the only child. So I'm the only one being told this, right? And it also didn't help that you were
a miracle child, right? Like it was that is true. I think that did add to it. You're the only child

(10:26):
being a miracle. My parents are supposed to have children, right? They were not supposed to have
children. And so automatically it's you're the miracle child. You're the best thing since sliced
bread. And we so my father was in the military for a while, and we ended up moving to Georgia.
And that's where I ended up meeting Chris. And around the age of eight, you know, I was very,

(10:46):
very interested in aviation. And again, I'm going to plug my own channel, Trash Can Travel. So if
you want to go over there, I'm still very interested in aviation. And as I alluded to in a video over
on Trash Can Travel, I've been interested in it since I was five years old. I've been very interested
in the world of aviation. And of course, my father knew that. And so he got me into flight lessons.
And so this is where I'm going to start with narcissism, right? Because you sit here and go,

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well, that's a really good dad. That's a great dad who's going to support your hobbies and things
like that. But it was about the intention of it. The intention that he had was not because that is
Micah's interest. That is what he wants to do when he grows up. It was a bragging point of, hey,
my kid at age eight knows how to fly a plane. Does your kid at age eight know how to fly a plane?

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No, they don't. And so it was a sticking point of, listen, I'm better than you. I have the control
over you. And so those are the things that narcissists tend to do. I will add a story into
that just to kind of illustrate the point that you're making. Maybe I've shared this before. This
is probably, we're probably about the same time. I remember hanging out with you and you know which

(11:56):
story I'm going to tell, but hanging out in your room. And I remember your maternal unit,
she comes in and is like making this big deal. And she was like, oh my gosh, Micah, she was like,
you have been invited to go join the Augusta Players Junior to be part of their program.
She was like, that's an honor. So many kids would love to do this. And I remember being like,

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I got the same invitation in the mail. I think everybody like in the air, I got them and broke,
she was mad when I said, she was like, well, she was like, wait, she was like, wait a disappoint
things or whatever. Like it was almost like, and she, and she told everyone, I remember she would
tell it. She was like, yeah, well, Micah was a baby. He looked just like the Gerber baby. And like,
absolutely. Those points where it's like, I'm better than you. And like, I don't know. So

(12:43):
continue. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt. Absolutely. No, no, no, great, great points.
And so a lot of the things that happened were a lot along those lines of, oh my gosh, look how
great my child is. So fast forward just a few years, I get into the fourth grade. And, you know,
really, it wasn't my fault. It was made out to be my fault. But I moved from Germany, which was

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Department of Defense Education. And if anybody knows, unfortunately, Department of Defense and
the government's form of education for military kids is behind what normal public school is.
And that's saying something as public school, especially in Georgia is already not great.
But if the Department of Defense is behind that whole thing, and I'll give you an example. So when

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I moved to Georgia, when I left, I was in the third grade and I moved halfway through the year in
third grade. So I was finishing the back half of third grade. When I got to Georgia, we hadn't
started on multiplication at all when we were in Germany at all. When we got to Georgia,
they were already on division. So it was like, I was already vastly, as you know, multiplication,

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you have to know multiplication in order to do division. So it was like, I was already well
behind the curve. And luckily, I had a third grade teacher who was very, very helpful. And I did a
lot of tutoring with her. And she was very gracious enough to be like, help me out from school and
all this other things. And so I, she, and I think really and truly, I probably should have failed

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the third grade. But she was like, you know what, he worked so hard, let's bump him forward. Right.
So I get to the fourth grade. And the fourth grade teacher that I had was a first year teacher.
She had never taught before. And she was also kind of a witch. Like she was not very a nice
person. And in fact, I remember a PTO meeting, she used to give so much homework, she would give

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homework, like six, seven pieces of homework, I would call them pieces because it was six, seven
different assignments worth of homework a night, not a week a night. And so the thing was I would
always be working and working and working. And of course, my parents weren't the best ones to
help me with homework either. But at the same time, it was hard because there's so much going on.
And I remember being in a PTO meeting and her saying, listen, if your kid is not getting these

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pieces, because that was one of the complaints was listen, you're giving too much homework,
they're kids, right? They need to go home, they need to have a little bit of homework, sure.
But then they need to go out and play and things my kids work until seven, eight o'clock at night.
And the vert and the thing I remember her saying was, no, if they can't do all this homework within
an hour, something is wrong with your child. That is literally what she said. So that should tell

(15:22):
you what kind of teacher she was. Anyways, different thing. It was put on me that, Hey,
you're doing wrong, you're not getting things done, you're making bad grades, even though it
necessarily wasn't my fault. That's another sign of narcissism. If it's literally your fault for
everything, that, you know, that's not, that's not right. But anyways, so we get to that point.

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And that was probably the point where, because up to this point, from the time I was born to the
time that I got to the fourth grade, the first time, I was the, my parents pride and joy,
because they had nothing to do with, but to brag on me, they had nothing but to brag,
like, Oh man, my kid knows how to fly. Oh man, my kid's making good grades. Oh, what?

(16:06):
And so when I failed the third grade or the fourth grade, I'm sorry, it was detrimental.
Like it was horrible. Like it was one of those things to where I got locked out of my own room.
Like they literally locked me out of my room, moved me to the gas bedroom where I had nothing.
You know, it's interesting. I watched a night at the Roxbury. If you've ever seen that movie,

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that SNL movie, and I haven't thought about this for years. I've watched that movie. I don't know
how many times, but the only thing that I had in this guest bedroom was I had hidden a CD player,
one of those portable CD players, and I had a night at the Roxbury CD in there. And that was
the only contents that I had from my room at the time. And it was, I had hit it between the mattress

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and the box spring. And that's the only music that I would listen to. So listening to the soundtrack,
I started remembering, oh man, because I thought to myself like, oh yeah, I remember the soundtrack
very vividly. I can remember all the lyrics and everything else. Why is that? Because that's the
only CD you had during that time. And so why that was is because I no longer was the pride and joy.

(17:14):
They no longer can see me as a source of pride because I failed the fourth grade and that is
not a source of pride anymore. That is detrimental. They can't sit here and say, oh, well, he
knows how to fly and whatever because everybody knew that I failed the fourth grade. So it was to
them, they're sitting here thinking, oh man, well, he failed. So that's an indication to us.

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And that is a pride issue with us. That's no longer a pride point to us. And so things got
vastly worse during that time. And I was treated horribly during that time. And so things began
to pick up. I get into fifth grade, everything's fine. I get into sixth grade, everything's fine.

(17:58):
I started picking up my grades. I started playing football and football was a big motivator of,
okay, I got to keep my grades good because of football and everything else. Other than that,
I didn't have a huge motivation to keep my grades up. But once I got to that point, okay,
things were good. But then that's when I became the pride and joy again. It's always playing
football, he has good grades. And by this point, and something I didn't say, when I started

(18:22):
when I failed the fourth grade, that's when the flight lessons also stopped. That's when the money
stopped coming out. That is when I stopped getting money spent on me. And so it was, and Chris, I
just want to stop right here. Do you remember those times I want to ask you as a friend who saw
those times, what kind of was your perspective when that happened? My perspective was, I thought

(18:44):
your parents were wealthy, to be honest with you, because like, I remember going over to your room
for the first or going to your house for the first time, I went to your room and like you had like
this like brand new sound system, you had those lights that were like, and it was like, oh, wow,
like, I was like, you had an Xbox, like you had like all these things. And I was like, I'm like,

(19:06):
you were getting like, I say this, and I've told Micah this to his face, but like, I was kind of
envious of Micah during that time, because like he would always get like the newest clothes, all
that stuff. And so during that time, like I was that's when we shared like I would get Micah's
hand me downs because he was also growing. But I think around like, I don't know, they had to buy

(19:28):
you clothes because you were like growing, right? But like constantly after like seventh grade, I
don't I didn't get any more like reason being is because I stopped growing at that point. Like I
had all my growth spurts and I was this you can't tell from the camera, but I'm six three, as far as
height wise, and I was that tall in the seventh grade. So it you know, I was having all these

(19:49):
growth spurts during that time. But it was very much and this will kind of put you in perspective
and just kind of how Micah's friendship was. And we've we joke about it now, but Micah would tell
me like I saved you like you were a little nerd boy, like I'm the reason you're not a nerd anymore.
To be quite frank with you and they were pretty open about it, you know, they pretty much said my

(20:10):
family was like lesser than your family because of where we lived and they were like, they didn't
straight up call us trash, but they were just like, I like he's I felt like I was like the charity case.
Yeah, you were your best friend. Absolutely. So like I would go on trips and like vacations with
Micah because I was like, he's only kid. So like, he wants a friend to hang out with but it was always

(20:34):
kind of like, well, they feel bad. Right. Well, like my whole life wasn't like my home life wasn't
terrible, but like my parents were going through some things and like, yeah, it's kind of why it
wasn't widely known, but people knew like my parents were, you know, having some things that
they were going through. And so it was kind of like, Oh, we'll pray for Christopher and his family.
They're you know what I mean? So it was and yeah, at the beginning when when y'all first moved, like

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that's when like it was like high end, like everything high end everything like that's a
whole nother rabbit trail that we can get. But right. Much like, you know, Micah, Micah was like,
Hey, I got to be the forefront of attention and like looking back at it. Now it's kind of like
part of it is being in a narcissistic atmosphere, but part of it is also too like, it's like, I got

(21:23):
a fight for attention because unless I'm getting attention, like you had the mines because there
was a there was a period where Micah like, I would say probably from after he failed fourth grade,
the first time to probably that seventh grade time, it was a trouble kid, I guess. And you were always

(21:44):
getting in trouble for always getting trouble. I was always fighting for attention. And the reason
being is because even though I had all this stuff at the beginning, all this stuff was because it
was just for what Chris said is so that when Chris came over or when friends came over, they can go,
Oh my gosh, Micah has all this stuff. Look how great of a life he lives. And again, that comes back

(22:08):
on them that comes back on them and go look how great of parents we are because we bought them
an Xbox, we bought them a sound system. The funny thing is going back to the whole sound system thing,
I couldn't run it because my mother was all like, Oh my God, so loud and like you could barely turn
that thing to nothing. So it was all for show like it was all a those are all showpieces. Like,

(22:28):
yes, I was able to play the Xbox. But I remember so many nights where my father would come up to
my room. I'd be trying to sleep like I'm trying to go to bed and do this other thing. And he's the
one playing the Xbox. It really wasn't for me. Like it was for them. And not just that it was to show
that Hey, yes, we got the money. We spoiled the crap out of our kid. My kid is better than yours.

(22:50):
My life is better than yours. Like that's a lot of like, but they would use like, Oh yeah, like
we we cut the cable off because you got bad grades. But reality was football season was just over
and they didn't want to pay. Right. Exactly. Every time football season would be over. So,
you know, just after February, February, March, it's like, Oh, well, you didn't get good grades

(23:11):
this year. So we're cutting off the cable. It had nothing to do with me getting bad grades. It was
literally, yes, they were trying to punish me for it. But at the same time, they're going to cut
the cable off anyways, right? They were going to go down to basic cable anyways. And so a lot of
what ended up happening, and what a lot of people don't know is between fourth grade and what Chris
was saying, the eighth grade timeframe was I was not allowed unless they were home. I wasn't allowed

(23:36):
to go outside. And during the summer times, they're not hiring babysitters. Like there was a to a
certain point, like I remember the hired babysitters up until I always call it fourth grade, the first
time, right? The first time I went through it. And then I went through it the second time. But
fourth grade, the first time I remembered them hiring babysitters every afternoon. It was two
sisters that lived down the road and, you know, they were in high school and they would help me

(23:59):
with my homework and all sorts of stuff, which I was very grateful for because I had that wonderful
experience. Just like some of y'all have, which y'all's parents have like, okay, Johnny's got two
apples and you take what away? What does that mean? It's like, that beats three, go get my belt
or something. You know what I mean? Like that was the experience I had. And so it's like, I was
very grateful. Okay, they're going to do this. But once that second fourth grade came about, it was

(24:25):
like, okay, you can handle yourself. We're not hiring anybody anymore. But you got to stay inside.
If I catch you come home and you're not outside. And the whole thing was because it's like, you
can get kidnapped, you can get whatever, you know, that was the whole guys that it was under.
But it what it really was for was it was because of control. It was that whole control piece of you

(24:48):
staying inside. If you go outside, we're going to get you like the belt's coming off and you're
going to get your hide taken off. And I did a few times because I want to go outside and play with
my friends. My parents wouldn't come home till 536 o'clock at night. And we got out of school at
three. So sure. And then in the summertime, we're home all day long. We're home all day long. You

(25:10):
think a kid wants to sit there all day long and do nothing but watch TV? Like they're going to get
bored and you want to go outside and be with your friends. And so I got in trouble many times for
that sort of thing. But this is why there was a lot of attention seeking as well is because I was
left alone a lot. I was left alone a ton. And when you're being told, you're the greatest thing since

(25:34):
sliced bread, the actions are showing differently. The actions are showing no, you're doing horrible.
And what they're telling people. So what would be interesting is what they would tell me is like
you're doing bad, your grades are bad, we're taking the cable away, we're taking this away,
we're taking your room away, we're locking you in the guest bedroom. You're not going to have
anything. You're not supposed to even have a CD in there. It's like, I remember there were several

(25:58):
times that friends of my folks would come over with their kids and whatever, and they would unlock my
bedroom. And it would be like one night of being back in my bedroom, like my official bedroom and
be like, enjoy it while you can because you got like three, four hours in here and it's locked back
up. Everybody didn't know. Everybody didn't know. Everybody still got the whole show of like, hey,
you got the Xbox, hey, you got the sound system, hey, you got all this stuff. But I had no access to

(26:23):
it because of this punishment that was going on because there was a lack of pride. And even it
was very confusing because when they would tell me, hey, you're doing wrong, they would tell other
people, oh, look how great Micah is. Oh, he's doing fantastic. And the story was always so vastly
different. In fact, I used to enjoy when other people came over because it was like, hey, I'm

(26:45):
actually something again, right? I'm something to them. I'm something to other people. But when it
was not there, when people were not there, when Chris wasn't there, when other people weren't
there, it was like, it was a vastly different experience than what they were seeing. And so it
was, and it was based off of the whole fact that there was no pride in what I was doing at the time.

(27:08):
It was about what I was doing and how well I was doing. And if that's not there, they have no pride
and they have nothing to tell people. So they have to literally give a facade and a show. Again,
another bits of narcissism there. So I, and again, this tell you, like, hey, I considered Micah's
parents like my second parents for sure. So it's not like a, hey, Chris was, but like they, because

(27:31):
when I looked up to them, I was like, man, they got a great marriage, like, especially with Micah's
paternal unit, like, man, he's successful, like, because he would always be like, yeah, if you
want something, you just go in there and take it. And he would have these stories of like, oh, yeah,
well, like I wanted this at a discount and they were telling me no. And so I just kept on and on.

(27:52):
I asked for the manager a good phrase he would always use is tell them that's not good enough.
And so I was like, man, this guy is like successful, like, and he had like influence and people looked
up to him. And so I maybe be like, man, like, this is what success is like. And so if I want to
be successful, I need to be this way. Doing what he's doing. I gotta be doing the actions that he's

(28:16):
doing, what he does. And, you know, and one thing that I will say about narcissism, and we'll go back
to kind of the timeline and things like that. But one thing I will say about narcissists is they are
very good at portraying a character. They're very good at portraying, look at me, I am the best
thing since life's bred, I volunteer over here, I do this over here. But one thing that I will tell

(28:39):
you, and this is a verbatim from something that my father, the narcissist has said is everybody
has an agenda. Everybody is out and they have their own agenda, and they're looking to do their own
things. And so just because of what is outward facing, that is not what they're after, you have
to look beyond that and see the agenda that they have. As I've lived life, I've realized, no, not

(29:01):
everybody has a hidden agenda of what is going on. That's just narcissistic people that have
hidden agendas that are like, okay, how can I look good so that I can use the situation? And I can
use the situation for my gain. And so that was, you know, and again, these are all lessons that
have been learned over time. There would be, and we talked a little bit more, I'm kind of jumping

(29:26):
ahead, but we talked a little bit of how the mica came related to this where it'd be like, I know
you're lying to me, don't lie to me, tell me the truth. And it would be about something that you're
like, completely blindsided by number one, right? It's just love to blindside you. The number two,
if you don't give them the answer they want, then they're going to, it's like an interrogation. And

(29:47):
so my cooking probably, yeah, that way it's like, yeah. And so we'll go into the next part, seventh
grade. So it just like a lot of kids and a lot of other things, I went through a lying phase, I
went through a phase where I was lying about everything. And the reason being is because I never
felt good enough, right? I never felt like I was good enough. So I had to portray myself as something

(30:08):
higher than I actually was. And Chris, all that even earlier in time, third, fourth grade, I used to
say stupid stuff like, Oh yeah, I just hit my watch and dropped the mom and I rack and all this
other crap, right? When I was stupid little. And the reason being is because I felt like I wasn't
enough just being me sitting here being a friend. Like I felt like I had to be something larger than

(30:31):
life because that's what I'm betrayed as is, Hey, you're a miracle child. Hey, you know how to fly
a plane. Hey, and so you have to build yourself up to be this larger than life person. And so I
always wanted to build myself up as this huge larger than life person who's doing things that
nobody else is doing, right? And so a lot of what ended up happening and the instances that I'm

(30:55):
going to go into is I started lying a ton. I started lying about everything and small things,
big things, all sorts of things. And kind of what Chris is talking about, about, you know,
going and saying, I know what you did and things like that. So during these times, yes, I was getting
in a lot of trouble because I was also trying to get a lot of attention in school. I was talking a

(31:18):
ton. I was like, Oh yeah, I know how to fight. I was fighting kids left and right because it was
like, okay, I'm the best fighter out there. I'm the, you're trying to prove that you're the best
at everything. You're the best at everything that you can do. And so because that is the only way
that I felt like I was getting love from particularly my father. And what's interesting is at that

(31:39):
time, that's when I really saw my mother more as an equal than actually a parent because we were
almost in the same boat together. We were both vying for attention as well. And so a lot of what
ends up happening is you're just vying for this attention. And so I was getting in trouble a lot.
I was having all these problems. And so it's like, okay, I know what you did. I know what you did
at school. Your teacher called me. They're lying to you nine times out of 10. It's like, he didn't

(32:04):
hear from my teacher. He didn't know what was going on. But at the same time I'm sitting here
going the other live that I was pumped was I'm your father. I will always know better than you.
I'll always know before you. I will always know everything about what's going on. So you just
mind as well just tell me what's going on, which was not the truth. That was not the truth. He
didn't know what was going on. And a lot of the things that I was going through and doing at school

(32:26):
were very small, minuscule items that the teacher really and truly was probably like, Hey, watch it.
I'm going to give you this, you know, it wasn't like a full ride up or anything like that. It was
like, I'm going to give you a demerit. Like I remember middle school demerits were like a big
thing. And basically all that was was just like a brown, you know, as a black note on whatever. But
if you got like three or four of those, then you'd get written up and go to the principal's

(32:47):
office. But it's for minor things like, Hey, you're talking in class. Hey, you're making a nuisance
out of yourself. Hey, you're doing this, you're doing that, or you're being disrespectful or
whatever. It's like most teachers don't have time to send the kids the principal for every two seconds,
right? And so they're not calling your parents either because they ain't got time for all that.
But what would happen is you I'd be sitting there at dinner and go, and you know, it was always and

(33:09):
what also was worse too was my father was also a psychiatry major. So he also knew all about how
mentally things work, right? So he knew how to just really get things going. And so you'd be
sitting there at dinner and I would be sitting there. I don't know how many times it'd be sitting
there like, okay, he doesn't know what's going on. Like he doesn't know what I did at school today.

(33:31):
Like he doesn't know all this stuff that happened. And then all of a sudden we'd just be eating. He
wouldn't even look up from his plate. He'd just go, Yeah, your teacher told me exactly what you
did today. You want to go ahead and tell me about that before, because the whole thing that he told
me was if you tell me about it, you're in less trouble than if you don't tell me about it,

(33:51):
which was not necessarily true. It was you're going to be in trouble regardless. And you're
going to go through the same experience regardless, but I didn't know that at the time. So of course,
you're like, man, I don't want to get more trouble. I don't want to get the belt. Like I don't want
to get in trouble for what I'm not supposed to do. So you go, okay, and you tell the truth. And
so many times I would tell the truth and it's like, Nope, you're lying. That's a lie. And so what

(34:15):
ends up happening is you start a pattern of placating them by lying and going, You know what,
because they're pushing the issue so many times. For example, there was one time that and this is
kind of a weird example, but we had kind of a career day at school sort of thing where a bunch
of people came in and just with different careers and you had to like sign up for different

(34:38):
like the different classes. And one of the main like ones that everybody wanted to do, there was a
guy from Coca-Cola. And the reason that we wanted to go to that one was because they were giving
that cans of Coca-Cola. And like that might not sound like a big deal, but when you're in middle
school, you're like, Oh, I want to get a can of Coke for free and everything. So everybody wanted
to be it. Everybody did. And I remember I signed up and I got the last spot at the last class.

(35:02):
And I was like, Oh, yes, like this is great. I'm going to get a can of Coca-Cola and like, I'm going
to go see this guy. And I remember getting to that classroom and there was a guy who cut in front
of me and I was like, and they were counting the kids like they weren't actually going by the list.
They were counting the kids and go, Okay, this is 25. We're cutting off right here. And so that

(35:23):
kid was in front of me. And I said, man, like I'm, I'm in line and everything. And that guy said,
tough luck. I mean, I'm paraphrasing. He said something a lot worse than that. But I was a
big kid. I was this big at the time. And I was like, really dude, like I'm getting into that class,
whether you like it or not. And he goes, Oh, yeah, what are you going to do about it? So I checked
them into a locker, I just went right into the locker, right? And of course, a teacher sees me,

(35:47):
sees what happens. I get sent to the principal's office. I get this whole thing, right? And so
I tell, you know, I go to the principal's office, but it really wasn't that big of a deal. The principal
was like, dude, why are you doing this crap? Go back to class, right? Like seriously, don't be
checking people in the lockers. Because it really wasn't that big of a deal. It's not like we got
into a full fight or anything. It's just like, dude, don't, don't do that. Just, just go back to

(36:10):
class. So I ended up going back to class. It was no big deal. I get home for dinner. The whole thing
about, I know what you did at school, teacher called me, the principal called me, I know exactly
what ended up happening. And so I said, okay, yeah, no big deal. I was in line for this Coca
Cold thing. I checked this kid into a locker, you know, but it wasn't that big of a deal. It's like,
nope, nope, nope. That's not what ended up happening. That's not what ended up happening. I heard you

(36:32):
punch this kid in the face and all this other stuff. And like it was like, it was this whole thing.
It's like, you made this kid bleed and like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's just this
whole thing. And what ends up happening is it's like you have two choices. You can either fight it.
And with narcissists, that doesn't go too far. You can fight it all the live long day till you're
blue in the face. And you can tell them to be like, I'm telling you, this is the truth. This is exactly

(36:56):
how it happened. I'm not bsing about what is going on. I literally checked them into the locker
because I wanted to can a Coke. He sent me back to class. It was no big deal. That's not when it
ended up happening. You didn't tell me what's going on. And so that just keeps going and going.
And the punishments get worse, right? It's like, okay, well, you're getting, you're getting a whipping
for lying to me. You're getting a way and you're going, well, I don't want that. Like I'm not lying

(37:19):
to you. So what ends up happening is you placate that and go, all right, yeah, I punched the kid in
the face and I beat him up and his blood was, you know, and all this other stuff. And you're like
telling all this stuff. And nine times out of 10, you're going, that's not what actually happened.
But I'm just trying to keep myself safe because I don't want this to continue to go on because

(37:40):
you're not believing anything that I'm saying. And what's interesting is a lot of the things,
even as I got to be an adult and when I would ask my father like, Hey, why wouldn't you believe these
things when I would tell you these things every time it would be things I remember one of the
biggest excuses that I was given. It's like, when you were in the fifth grade, you remember when you

(38:01):
bought that Xbox, right? And I bought this Xbox with my own money of $50. I spent this, spent to
get this Xbox. And it was the original Xbox and 360 was already out and there was a sale and whatnot.
And I bought this Xbox and we got mad, right? And a kid unbeknownst to me, I got mad and you
know how you can go into Madden and the settings and like change the sliders. And basically you can

(38:26):
make like the kicker be super crazy and make 70 yard kicks and all this other crap. Like you can,
you can do all that stuff in Madden. And so what ended up happening, not knowing, not knowing that's
technically cheating because nobody ever taught me that, I ended up doing that. And so I play against
him and my kicker hits a 75 yard field goal and he's like, Oh, you're cheating. That's me.

(38:47):
Ta ta ta ta ta. Homie used that against me all the way into, I mean, even into adulthood.
But it's like ever since that point, it was like, I don't trust you anymore. And so everything that
you say is a lie. Everything that you say to me is a lie, whether it is or whether it isn't. And
the whole thing is, it wasn't even about Madden. It wasn't about Madden. It was about, I can tell

(39:11):
you those things and make you feel like a piece of crap to the point where you go, Okay, this guy
has to be right in what he is saying. Because listen, I don't have integrity. I don't have character.
I don't have anything that I have. And you have no morals. Like they will make you feel like you
have zero morals. Yes. And so the thing is, it's like that example just was always wild to me

(39:36):
because it's like, dude, I was like nine 10 years old, like I was in the fifth grade with that,
that scenario that you just talked about about checking the kid. He was probably like, well,
he's only telling me partially the truth. I heard you did X, Y and Z to see if you would
confess to it's like a second. Yeah, he detects like, okay, you're being you're being a liar,

(39:59):
but really and truly he's lying to himself and going, okay, that's not the full story and whatever.
I know the full story when he had no clue the full story. And you would lie to he would lie to
himself. And then all of a sudden that makes you the liar, you the bad guy. And again, that is one
of the big keys of narcissism is you're the problem, not me. I'm not the liar. You're the liar. I'm not

(40:22):
lying to myself. You're lying to yourself. But really and truly, he's the one doing that sort of
thing. And so these things happened over the years. And so I went through that lying phase for quite a
while, right? And some different things happened. And really what it came down to was he, you know,
I'm not going to delve into really deep into what happened. But there was a lot of corrective

(40:44):
action that he tried to take to try to not have me be a liar. And I'm sure that a lot of it was
because like, I don't want you to turn out to be the compulsive liar that I am. But at the same
time, that's not how it came out, right? That's not how it came across. And really and truly,
all that it became was, okay, I'm going to have to learn how to lie better to get around all of

(41:06):
this issue. And so that's the mindset that I ended up having instead of, Hey, I don't need to lie
about things. It's you need to be a better liar. You need to be a better because, you know, and a
lot of it was because you need to lie to be able to placate whatever he's doing, not necessarily
what the truth is, because you could tell him the truth doesn't matter. It's, and then even sometimes

(41:30):
if you're like, okay, no, you're right. This is what ended up happening. They're like, nope,
you're lying. See, I could tell that you're lying because of this, this and this. And you're going,
wait a second, I'm literally telling you what you want to hear. What do you mean I'm lying?
And so now it's like, okay, well, I got to figure out how to lie better because I want to get out
of these situations. I don't want to be in a discussion for three hours and get just interrogated

(41:52):
for three stinking four hours, right? And then still end up getting punished out the wazoo
for something that I didn't even do. And so it was a lot of those things that really was hard
during those times. And so it became one of those things where it shifted the mindset and I had to
unlearn that really hard when I became an adult because I started, I was lying to a lot of people

(42:17):
because I was worried about how, and you know, I still even fight that sometimes there's still
that little thing in my head of, oh, this is going to upset certain people. Maybe I should lie and
placate them and tell them what they want to hear so that I don't make them mad and I don't get the
consequences of their actions. And you know, that all comes from back then and dealing with that

(42:38):
sort of thing. Now I know we went through a lot, Chris. And I know I did a lot of the talking
because we're still on this track. I know. So we're kind of in our timeline, we talked about how
we took out hiatus from being friends and part of the reason why I moved out like, yeah, Micah
and I were having like, not like kind of, but like what really caused me to move out was it would

(43:01):
be one of those things of, Hey, you can come in, you can tell us anything like, even if you wreck
the car, if you get someone pregnant, whatever, like we are expecting you to come in and have
this conversation. So whatever. And it was also like a, Hey, like you're young, you're 20, like
1920, like be free. You got your whole life to do all this. And then I remember this one family

(43:27):
meeting. And again, we've talked about how like anytime we would go out or get a burger or whatever,
it was always like, where are you at? What are you doing? You shouldn't be out this way, this
and that. So they would say like, Hey, go live your life. But then it was like, where are you at?
What are you doing? Type deal. And I remember this one family meeting, he came down hard on me and
Micah and was like, this isn't just a place for you to hang your hat. Like you need it. Y'all need

(43:50):
to start contributing and this and that. But like, we had gone through a period like, Hey, we'll cut
the grass, like all that stuff. And we kind of stopped doing that because we were like, we're
tired of just, I don't know, whatever. But so I remember being like, okay, well, this is his house.
These are his rules. I don't like them. So I'm going to move out. So my question for you, sorry,

(44:11):
that was a long way to get this. When did you start being like, Hey, I really am starting to
notice these signs. And as an adult, and you're like, Hey, like, this is not something I want to
be a part of. When did you start having that self awareness? Because during the, you don't know
any better, right? Right, right. It really took my wife coming into the equation to really help

(44:33):
me out. And of course, she was my girlfriend at the time and things like that. But part of the
things that I started seeing was, I did bring a few friends by like, we talked about Fat Cat before,
and things like that. He hated coming to my house. He refused to come to my house because he did not
like my parents like he did not like them at all. He didn't like anything they stood. I don't know

(44:54):
necessarily what they did to make him not like them, but that was not a unique scenario. Right.
It was a lot of people that I would bring by they're like, Yeah, let's hang out other places and
let's not hang out around them and things like that. And, you know, there was a lot that I started
realized and it's like, man, I'm starting to offend them or not really starting. It's like,

(45:16):
I've been defending them a lot my entire life. And even some of the things that they would say,
even some of the things that my paternal unit would say, he used to say this one thing.
He's like, if something is going on, and there's all these people up here and you're the common
denominator, you're the one, right? You're the one who feels a certain type of way, then it's you,

(45:38):
that's the problem. And he used that a lot to make it like, okay, you're the problem. But I started
realizing, wait a second, there's all these numbers of people saying, Hey, they're the problem. And
they're the only one saying, Hey, everybody else is the problem, not me. So it's like, hold on,
that principle does math, but it's mapping in the other direction that you're telling me that it's

(45:59):
mapping. And so that's kind of how it started. I ended up meeting my girlfriend at the boot
corral. When I worked there the second time, Chris wasn't working there this that time. And I met her,
I brought her home. I mean, she was, I only brought two girls home. I brought a previous girlfriend
home and I brought her home. And I remember the first thing that happened. They liked her. They

(46:22):
thought that she was good and whatnot. But I remember they had said, you know,
do you think she's the one? And I said, Yeah, I do. And she said, Well, you think you thought
about that the last time you thought about that the last time you thought the last one was the
girl and whatnot. And it's like, both of them were very for both very serious situations, right?
The very first girlfriend that I ever had was the one that brought home. And of course, if you've

(46:44):
ever been in that first situation, of course, you think there's the one because you've never been
loved before. So of course, you think that's the one you're going to spend the rest of your life
with, right? But this one was vastly different. My wife was like, No, this is the one I know this
is it like beyond the shadow of a doubt this the last time was whatever. But they were like, Oh,
no, you said that about the last one, you said about the last one. And not just that, but when
they would come over her name is Megan, they would call her by my ex's name, like they would be like

(47:09):
whatever just to screw with her. And they like, Oh, accident, it was on purpose. Oh, it was on
purpose. And they'd be like, Oh, yeah, well, is there really any difference, you know, da, da,
da, da, da, da, like, yeah, they would say things like that. Yeah, it was real messed up. And then
what ended up happening was, so the biggest thing where I really started seeing it was,

(47:31):
they were very much again, I'm very big on aviation, I wanted to be a pilot and things like
that. One of the biggest things that was happening at the time was I was going through college and
I was paying my own way through South Plains College, which is a community college at that point.
And so it was cheap, it was like $2,000 a semester, which some people that's like, Oh,
that's not cheap. But for college, that's pretty cheap. And so with the money that I was making

(47:53):
and living at home, I was able to afford to pay my own college tuition, even though I was told,
Hey, we're going to cover your college tuition. But the whole reason that they were not covering
the college tuition all of a sudden, whenever it came time was because you're not doing anything
aviation related. So we're not going to cover that. You're just wasting your time. We're not

(48:14):
going to cover that. And the whole argument was, Okay, well, I'm just trying to get a degree.
Really, there's a lot of people who are pilots who have degrees and all sorts of other things.
It's just about getting the degree. And for me, this is my logical side of my mind. And this
is how I was thinking at the time at age 19 and 20. And I still feel this way is the aviation

(48:35):
industry is a very volatile industry. It goes up and down and up and down and up and down and up
and down. So if you get a degree in aviation, if aviation goes, then you're kind of SOL, right?
Like you're having a problem. And I remember trying to explain that to them. And my paternal
unit is like, well, you listen, you're, you're, and I'm not going to say my last name, but it's

(48:55):
like you're this last name and you're better than everybody else. And so what should happen is if
you're going to be like that, then, you know, you are going to have a job no matter what. And you
need to have the faith that you're going to be the best and the brightest and you're going to have
the job no matter what. I'm sitting here going like, yeah, that doesn't make a lot of sense.

(49:16):
Because as much as you can think that way, aviation is one of those things you could be out on.
It don't matter how many hours you have. It doesn't matter anything about you could be out on your
butt and have no job tomorrow. Like that is not how that works. So I knew I needed a backup plan
to where it's like, okay, because especially, and I think this was a very much of a God thing,
because at the time the aviation industry was down, like it was incredibly down to where there

(49:40):
was people just a few months before who had thousands of hours of flight time who are working
at McDonald's because they had no other experience besides flying. And they could not get back into
flying because of how the industry was now. Now the industry picked back up, they were able to get
back into it. But the thing is, it's like, listen, I need to be able to make good tangible money

(50:01):
if I get laid off in between these hiatus times. So I thought, okay, a business degree.
I even, you know, I didn't think about information technology at the time, but largely it was
business. It was, I think there was even like, I want to learn cultural studies or something
like that. There was like biology, marine biology, like there was all sorts of things, right? And so

(50:27):
my girlfriend and I, we were living out, she was living out of town. She was living in Central
Texas. I was living in Lubbock with my parents, and she came up for the weekend. And we had talked
about all this and she agreed with me. She said, listen, I understand where you're coming from.
And I think that's very smart of you to do that. And so let's print out a bunch of these degree
programs and a bunch of the flight schools and say, Hey, I will attend this flight school,

(50:51):
and I will attend this school and do a degree program at the same time. And so I can fly,
I can get the degree. And so that I'm covered on both ends, right? And so I remember having that
conversation with him. And that was a no go. My God, I, both of us got ripped, like you would
not believe because it was, Oh no, that's not good at all. That's not what you're supposed to do.

(51:15):
I'm not going to pay for that. I'm not going to support that. I can't even believe you would even
think like that. You are about aviation. Your passion is flying. You should be doing nothing
but flying. And it's like, listen, you don't know the industry like I know the industry. I am trying
to tell you that the industry is volatile. It is down right now. Even if I were to jump in right now

(51:37):
as a newbie, I couldn't get a job if I even wanted to. And even if it picks back up, it is going to
drop back off. That is just the ebb and flow of the industry. I need to be smart about these things.
Like I have to, and you, you don't know anything about that sort of thing. Don't tell,
don't tell a narcissist they don't know about a certain subject, by the way. And so it was that

(51:57):
at that point in that conversation, I knew, okay, he is only going to see what he wants to see.
He is only going to see what he wants to see. And what he wanted to see, it's because of the
narrative. Again, it goes back to the narrative of it sounds so much better of my kid is going to
school for an aviation degree and he's in flight school at the same time. Business degree in flight

(52:20):
school doesn't sound as good, right? Biology in flight school doesn't sound as good. So it's one
of those things that's not what he wanted. In fact, what he wanted for the longest time, he wanted
me to go to the Air Force Academy and he wanted me to go into the Air Force. I did not want to go
into the Air Force. But at the same time, think about how good that sounds. My kid is going to

(52:42):
the one of the military academies, which are hard to get into. And so I even remember
I applied for the, for the Air Force Academy, got the little recommendation from whoever the,
not Chip Roy, whoever the Congressman was up there at the time, like I got a recommendation
from him, but it was only for West Point and Merchant Marine. Like that was literally all that was

(53:06):
for. I'm like, man, I'm not going Coast Guard in Army. Like I really did not want to go do those
things. And so he was like, he even like made the plan for me. He's like, all right, so what you're
going to do is you're going to go to tech, Texas Tech, they're in Lubbock and we're, you know, you're
going to join the Air Force ROTC, you're going to make good grades. And then in two years, there's a

(53:26):
whole program like he'd looked all this up and he's like, there's this whole program where you can
transfer over and it's easier than getting in high school and all this. He really wanted me to go
Air Force ROT, Air Force Academy, all this stuff, right? And so again, when it's like, no, I'm not
going to do that sort of thing. It started getting, the relationship started going very, very far down.

(53:48):
That is one thing about narcissism is, you know, a lot of things, especially from parents, you're
expecting an unconditional relationship. It was very conditional. It was very conditional of
you either do what we want you to do, or you are not getting the support. That's literally it.
That's literally it. And I'm going to kind of link those two again together. So I ended up,

(54:10):
I ended up saying, you know what, screw this, man, I'm not playing the games anymore. I'm not
doing any of this. And I was still talking with him, but I decided to move down to Central Texas
with my girlfriend and I decided to go and that was a big deal, especially growing up in the
religious space that we did. I went and moved in with my girlfriend, got an apartment with her.

(54:32):
And at the time they had a flight school down there that I was like, okay, I'm going to attend that
flight school. And of course it didn't end up happening because I couldn't afford it. But
because I had no financial support from them. It's like, you move down there, that's all on you.
So I remember saving up the money and I ended up moving down there because,
and especially towards the end, the narrative was, you're just a bum. You're just a bum. And I have

(54:54):
this cousin who lived at home until he was 30. And they use that guy as an example left and right
of, oh, you just go live at home till you're 30. Like you're not doing nothing with your life. It's
like, dude, I have a job. I'm in college. I'm paying my own tuition in college. And that was not good
enough. Like that was not good enough. And so I was just like, man, I'm sick and tired of this

(55:15):
not being good enough ever. Like I'm helping around the house. I'm mowing the grass. I'm going to
school. I'm going to work. I'm doing all this stuff. And it's not good enough. So you know what?
I'm going to go be happy. I'm going to go with my girlfriend. I'm going to go down to Central
Texas and I'm going to go to flight school and I'll figure out a way to afford it then because
you're not paying for anything anyways. And so now that I talked about a lot. And of course,

(55:38):
there's a lot of in between that's, it would take a lot more than this podcast to delve through
everything that happened. But essentially that's what ended up happening. And I'm going to zoom
forward just in my experience, Chris, but what ended up happening, I still talked with them for
quite a while. But again, it was very conditional. And every time that I talked with them, I'll put

(55:59):
it to this way. I was scared to death. Like, okay, my father wants to talk to me on the phone. And
like my wife now who is my girlfriend will tell you that I would sit there for moments just like
shaking like, man, I'm going to have to talk to him because I knew the conversation was about to
be you're doing wrong. You're doing terrible. You're living with your girlfriend. That's sinful.

(56:20):
You're not you're not doing flight school like you're supposed to. You're going to school for
something else. That's not right. And just just rip you the entire time. And I told them, I don't
know how many times like, man, let me live my life. What I want from you right now is I want,
I want because I feel like at a certain point and what I try to convey to him is after the age of 18,

(56:41):
you've reared me enough to the point where at this point, you should be supportive of what I'm
doing, even if you don't agree with it, you should be supportive of what I'm doing. You should help
me through my life challenges. And it's not that I'm being a bad guy. I'm not even out of jail. I'm
not doing I'm not on drugs. I'm not doing any of this stuff. So all I want you to do is I want
to pick up the phone and say, Hey, did you watch the tech game this weekend? Hey, did you watch

(57:05):
what the Cowboys were doing and have a relationship with you like that? And that was not possible
at all. It was literally you are doing wrong. You were the absolute worst thing that is going on
right now. And it was always wrong. And that happened for years. And you know, when it changed,
it changed. So I got into it, which was the same industry that he is in. And I worked my way up

(57:31):
and I had a friend of mine at the time, he's no longer a friend, but he was working. I had
got him a job with my father in it there in Lubbock at one point. And my father had left,
I had left Lubbock and everything like that. And I was still in contact with this friend and he
said, Hey, you know, we've got this position open. It's like two steps ahead of where you're at

(57:53):
right now, but we can't find anybody. And so I told the guy said, Well, why not me man? Like,
I'm a quick learner, like I'll get in there and I'll really work it out and things like that.
And so I get in there and he says, Sure, like absolutely, I think that's great. I interview,
I end up getting a job. I kid you not man, given my father that parental unit that call,

(58:15):
he's like, Well, yeah, you should thank me for that, you know, and you know, he was taking
the credit for for getting this. And I didn't think anything of it, man, I was just more happy
that he was happy with me. Right. And the relationship improved vastly. It improved greatly.
Like we had the best relationship we probably had in my entire life. Like we were close,
we would literally just talk on the phone and it would just be about, it wouldn't be about work.

(58:39):
Like sometimes it would be like, Oh yeah, someone's still still working there or whatever, but a lot
of it would be what I was looking for was the support was the, you know, Hey, football, we're
watching football this weekend, we're doing this, we're doing that, whatever. Suddenly that started
changing in that job. And unfortunately, the other person I was working with was a narcissist as

(59:02):
well. And the biggest thing about narcissists is they demand loyalty, 100% loyalty. I started
coming across things that some people were doing over there based and I was doing my job, but I
started uncovering certain things that they did not like. And so they viewed that as, Hey, you're
not being loyal anymore. You're not being loyal because you are outing us for what we are doing.

(59:27):
We expected you to be in this position. They expected me to be a yes man. They expected me to
just play Kate and just go on with what they're doing. Yeah, exactly. And so what ended up happening
was I was like, no. And so they started pressuring me to get out. They started making meetings just
to pressure me and everything like that. And so I started calling my father and go, Hey, listen,
this guy is not what I thought he was supposed to be. He is starting to force me out. What do I do?

(59:53):
It was all about, it was all, well, that's your problem. You did something to screw this up. You
did something to screw this up. You did something. Well, you know, it was all about, it was my fault.
It was somehow my fault that I was doing all of this and just stick it out because, you know,
this, you know, it'll be, it'll be better. Do you know how many times I've had HR reports
filed on me? And it's like, but dude, I've never had an HR report filed on me because I've never

(01:00:16):
done anything crazy. I'm literally just doing my job. I had an HR report filed on me that I
had faked the drug test to get the job. And I knew exactly where it came from. It was from this other
guy because he's trying to force me out of this place. And so I'm like, dude, I've never had these
things happen in my life. So I need your help. Like I need your help as a father. Tell me how

(01:00:37):
to get out of this situation because this is not what I'm looking for. Every other job that I've
had, they've loved me because of how hard that I work. And it was all based off of my merits. This
is the first job that they're like, man, you suck your terrible HR reports left and right and all
this other stuff. And I know what they're trying to do. I need your help. No, it's your fault. It's
your fault. And so finally, I made the decision because it was really affecting my relationship

(01:01:01):
with my now wife, who was my still my girlfriend at the time, but it was really affecting that it
was really affecting every bit of my life. I was unhappy. Like, Chris will tell you he was this
is when we had reconvened his friends. I mean, we took so many drives or I'm just talking about
these things. And it's just like he's not bad, but it was to the point where you were you're

(01:01:22):
pretty paranoid, like you were constantly looking like, are they listening in to me like this and
that? I would turn off my phone when we had conversations because I'm like, I'm worried
that they're tapped into my phone and they're listening to me. And I'm worried that you know,
like it was it was just to a really, really bad point. I was also having health problems because
of it. I ended up having to have a surgery and I'm convinced those health problems are just the

(01:01:43):
sheer stress of the of the matter, right? And so finally, and this is definitely a God thing.
And this is how you know it's God is I called my former, my former job, my former boss and I said,
Hey, do you have any openings? And this was during COVID. And he said, Yeah, we do. And we're all
remote right now. And we would love to give you your job back. Like I gave one call, five minute

(01:02:04):
conversation. Like, dude, we will send you a laptop and you can start in two weeks.
Bet me, like I could be out of here and I could have another job. I mean, how many, how many
times in life have you had like a lineup like that happen? It typically does not happen like that.
So you know, it's a God of like, open the door, get the heck out of here because it's not the
place for you. And so I remember I gave my two weeks and again, all these people that were trying

(01:02:29):
to oust me also knew him as well. So I knew that, Hey, they're going to probably give him a call
and be like, your son is da da da da da da da da da. And so I wanted to be like, listen, I wanted
you to hear it for me first. And this is why. So I gave him the call. And I said, Hey, you know,
I'm leaving, I'm leaving this, this place. And here's the reason why I've already got another job

(01:02:50):
lined up. Like it's no big deal. He ripped me hours of just ripping me on the phone. And I remember
getting really heated and going, listen, you don't sit in my chair and you don't do what I do every
day and you don't face the pressures that I face every single day. You don't hear the things that
are being said, you don't have that happening to you. So you don't understand what's going on.

(01:03:13):
And the line that came out of that was, and this was when Donald Trump was doing the first thing.
And for all you Donald Trump fans, but he's literally said, you want to be like Donald Trump,
you want to be able to walk out in the street, shoot somebody in the head and get away with it.
And I'm, and that was the really defining moment for me to go, my gosh, this guy is a monster.

(01:03:34):
Like this, it's not just he's bad. He is a monster. Because if anybody that is going to say that,
that is the intentions and how they live. That is, he was giving me the exact way that he wants to
live. He wants to be able to do whatever he wants and be able to get away with it and have people
just go along with it. And he's like, that's where you're going wrong is you're not doing things and

(01:04:00):
you're not being rude and mean enough and being able to get away with it. You need to figure out
how to do that. No, I don't. And that is when I made the decision to say, I'm not talking to you
anymore because I understood full on from then, his alignment and what he wanted to do and my,
and what I wanted to do was way on different fronts. They were in, and that's when I started

(01:04:23):
thinking about a lot of those other things, like those terms that I had said about everybody,
you're, you know, everybody's in your world and they're just privileged to be in it.
That sort of thing. You start thinking about all these things and go, oh my gosh, this is how he
is. He literally thinks this way. He's not, he wants that hidden agenda. Everybody's got a hidden,
no, he's got the hidden agenda. And so those are the things that were really like, oh man,

(01:04:48):
I got to get away from this guy. This guy is dangerous. And so that a long point to your
answer or a long point to your question there, but yeah, that was everything that really led up to
that point. And once I got to that point, it really just, that's when I was like, oh man, this guy is
a textbook narcissist. He wants what he wants. He wants control the situation. He wanted me to be

(01:05:15):
at the same job that he was at because he had the pride of, I got him there. I got him to that point.
And not just that, but he had control the situation because he knew the other people at the place.
He had utter control of the situation by me leaving that pride is gone. The control is gone.
And so it's not about what I was doing. It's not about supporting his son. It's about what he,

(01:05:38):
what was on his end and that pride in the control. And a lot of a narcissist, they,
they will either treat you one or two ways. Most of the time, narcissists have to attach themselves
to people of power so that they can, and he would constantly do that. There were different
situations. Like there was a church that he attached himself to the senior pastor and was like,

(01:06:00):
he would joke. He was like, we're going to take over the church this and that. He called himself
Chancellor Palpatine. Like he called himself Chancellor Palpatine for like the Star Wars
guy, right? Like he's like secretly kind of the puppet master before, you know,
anybody knew he was the puppet master behind the whole thing.
Yeah. He would, he would do that. And then narcissists, if they attach themselves to power,

(01:06:22):
but they can't control you, then they see you as a threat. So they're thinking of,
hey, are you a person that's going to either three groups, one, you're a person of power,
so you can help me to, are you someone that I can control or manipulate and loyal to me?
Or three, if you're neither one of those, you're a threat to me. And now I have to take you out

(01:06:43):
and I'm going to make up any lies that I can to take you out. I'm going to assassinate your character
and I will, because a lot of not all of them, but a lot of narcissists do have charisma and they do
have, they're very believable. And so it's easy for them to be like, Oh yeah, did you hear Micah,
X, Y and Z, blah, blah, blah. And then other people are like, what? Like, I would have never

(01:07:04):
been like, yeah, but like this, that and the other. And so it's like, then people are like,
they, they are those puppet masters. And so it's, man, it's, it's hard because they're very dangerous
and very sneaky. And we've talked about this and you've talked about this with your therapist,
that if you are around a narcissist for prolonged periods of time, like, like what, I don't know

(01:07:30):
what the threshold is, like eight years plus, nine years, 10 years plus, then a, you start to develop
those narcissistic tendencies, but B, there's like something like mentally where you're just,
you know, that you just been so manipulated for so long, you just don't see it. And I like,
you know, I, I'm, I have come out of that being in a relationship with a narcissist before I met

(01:07:55):
my wife and then to being around other narcissists. And I see their wise and I'm like, oh yeah, like
you have no idea. And it's like, I feel bad for you because you only believe what your spouse is
telling you. So you don't know any difference. So you think they're telling you the truth,
especially because these are the people who are supposed to love and protect you.
And they're also narcissists are very good. Most of them have very silver tongues, they're very

(01:08:19):
smooth, tongueed people to where they will say, listen, you're nothing without me, you're nowhere
without me. And so you really do feel like, Hey, if I come out of your umbrella, like I'm screwed,
like I have no shot at life. I don't, and you know, I, we're talking a lot about my father,
but we've had bosses like this, the bargain or the bootcoural guy that we're talking about before.

(01:08:43):
I forget what we called him, but our boss there was the same way. It's like, listen,
if you're not working here and you're not a lifer and you're like away from me, then you're
nothing. And like, and the thing is, it's hard when you experience one narcissist to not
full on buy into other narcissists because you already have, and especially when you grow up

(01:09:04):
in that environment, you already have that kind of hook in your mind, so to speak, to where you
sit here and go, well, maybe I'm not all that in the bag of chips. Like I think I am. And maybe
I'm not as good as I think I am. So maybe I should keep going with this, even though it's a bad
situation, but at least I'm protected, at least I'm protected and at least I'm loved and whatever,

(01:09:26):
but you're really not, you're really not. It's all a facade. It is a facade. And that is like,
they didn't say it, but my ex-wife made me feel that way when I thought about like,
after we'd gone through the doors and we were like, still trying to like, you know, see if it
worked, like I was, the hopes were still like in there. And it was like, if I leave this situation,
then I'm going to, I'm not doing God's best for my life. No one's ever going to want me. No one's

(01:09:51):
ever going to love me. Like, no, I'm going to be like, I'm going to screw up God's plan for my entire
life. And that's how I thought. And it was just the narcissistic tendencies. Now, I want to ask
you a little bit about your situation. So we went through a lot of my situations and things like
that. And again, we could probably fill four or five episodes up with all of what we're going through.

(01:10:12):
But just want to talk about ex-wife, things like that. When did you start seeing, because I know
that you saw when you moved out, right, of my parents situation, when did you start saying,
Hey, my ex-wife is having, is a narcissist and having narcissistic tendencies and treating me,
you know, and having that hindered the agenda as well. So I knew she treated me poorly, but I

(01:10:41):
thought I deserved it. You know what I mean? So I, so I fell into that trap of, because it was,
so I'll kind of try to give you a quick timeline, but if we go long, we go long. It's okay. So
when we first got together, a lot of it was about control. And so she would, she did not like Micah,

(01:11:02):
right? So, um, and most people did like Micah. And I would, I would say there was no one that
like actively disliked you around that, even though you were like, yeah, kind of a lot.
I was very outgoing and I was still very much attention seeking and things like that. But
at the same time, Chris and I were a very good duo, right? I guess to say everybody knew we were

(01:11:25):
friends, everybody knew we were best friends. And I don't really remember anybody leading up to that
point being like, Micah is a problem and telling you like, Hey, I'm a problem. I mean, maybe they
didn't necessarily like my style and things like that. But typically I don't remember anybody being
like, okay, I don't like him and you being in friends together and things like that.
Yeah. And so a lot of it was she'd be like, Oh, well, I don't like when you hang around Micah,

(01:11:49):
because when you hang around Micah, you act this way, like you act X way. When really it was me
just like being myself. Cause even though I talked about like being in my shell, like me joking with
Micah and like laughing and like when I got in high school, I like, I was pretty much being myself.
And so she was like, I don't like that you're acting. Micah is a bad influence on you because

(01:12:11):
when you're around him, you, you act this way. And but she really just didn't like my, she didn't
like anybody really joking or even like teasing, like teasing her was like a big like, no, no, no.
So, so she was like, can I share a story? Like when y'all first started dating?
Yeah, go for it.
Share one or quick. So when he and he and his, when they just first started dating,

(01:12:35):
you know, before it got real serious, I remember being at our friend Fat Cat's house and there was
always again, I was, we were stupid kids at the time, 18, 19 years old. And I remember she called
and was like chewing them out. Like, where are you at? What are you doing? All this other stuff.
And one of the routines that I used to do is a quit and we were good little Christian boys.

(01:12:55):
So of course this would kind of freak some people out, but I would go, Hey, Chris,
stop buying the cheap cigarettes and stuff like that. Like that was one of, do you remember
I used to say that all the time with people in the background? Oh my God, she'd lost it.
Like she lost it about the anyways, that was one of the things I remember a little stuff that it
would always turn into fights. It would always be like, well, and always it was, this was always

(01:13:19):
the thing. And this is what kind of like made me feel bad. It was like, Oh, well, if you were really
a man of God, like you wouldn't be hanging around that you wouldn't be acting this way. Like the
men of like, I don't want to be with a man of God, like I'm looking for a man of God. And like,
if you're not going to be that, then I don't want to be with you. And it was like, it would attack
my character. And it was like, I was like, she controlled like who I hung out with, like I pretty

(01:13:43):
much had to spend like all my time with her all my free time. But like when it came to her, like,
I was always like the second priority. Like I was always the sort of like school and choir and all
that that came first. And then I was always on the back burner. So it was like, I don't like you
hanging around this person, that person, whatever. And I would get accused like all the time, like

(01:14:04):
all the time, like, why were you looking at that girl? And I was like, I'm not like she was like,
no, you were looking, do you know her? Like, I'm like, who are you talking about? Like, you know
who I'm talking about? Like stop trying to play dumb with me. Like it was that it was one of those
situations of like, dude, what are you talking about? So everything was a fight. I remember like,
there's those memes where it's like, that one guy who's always in an argument with his with his girl

(01:14:29):
when he's going to hang out with friends, like it would just be like anytime I would go out and
she wasn't there to like monitor me or track me or whatever it was, like, I couldn't have any
fun. Like I would get blown up. Like if I didn't text back like in like a couple minutes or so,
like, it was always like, who are you with? Like, what are you doing? I'm like, I'm just hanging

(01:14:49):
out with like, Oh, well, you're hanging out. Where are you going? You better not be going anywhere
bad or you better not be going to see this bad movie or that bad movie. Like she controlled like
what I what I watch. And so for me, I think the reason why I fell into it is because at the time,
I had not experienced that many girls who had been like interested in me. So like, she was interested

(01:15:11):
in me. And so it was kind of like, well, like, and I had the belief kind of like Mike and this
didn't come from what did come from her. But like, it was, I'm not good enough. I'm not good looking
enough. I'm not this and that. And like, there was that part where like, I had spent that time
where I did like was like, you know what, I'm not going to go to church, this and that. And so like

(01:15:34):
when I did, it was kind of like, I trusted on what she defined as like a godly man and like,
how did that be my identity? So I'm like, if I'm making her upset or making her mad, then I'm not
doing my job as a godly man. So that's, that's what I thought. And she would do this thing of like,
you're not the same person you were. And she would like send me like screenshots of old texts that

(01:15:58):
I sent her when we were first dating. She was like, if you were really a man of God, like this is
when you are on fire for God, like I just missed that person. It was always about like, my potential
so it's like, you have the potential to be such a good godly man and do so many great things for
God. And like, you know, and so for me, I was like, man, I guess I'm really not being like,

(01:16:18):
and I would beat myself up. Like I'd get upset. It's like, man, like I did this, did that. So to
answer your question, I'm fast forwarding. So it was years of that and her family, her family would
always say like, it's just her being dramatic, like everyone in her family would say, Oh, she's
just being dramatic like this and that. And I should have listened to them, right? But she would

(01:16:40):
spend it like no one in my family understands me and they all choose to pick up, pick on me. Like
I'm the target of their jokes. And like, I wish my family would do like this and that. And so she
would always spend the family situation of like, it's their fault. They're targeting me. I'm the
black sheep of my family. Nobody gets me. Let me put this in for two perspective for you guys. And

(01:17:03):
some of you guys are not gonna like, you guys are not going to know what this is, but there's a movie
called Gone with the Wind. Okay. It's one of like the most famous move and the main character.
I hate that movie. Scarlett O'Hara is she is narcissistic. She is manipulative. Like she uses men
basically to survive. And like she's like, she's a kind of a really terrible human being, like

(01:17:25):
really terrible for sure character. And so I remember watching that movie with her and she
never watched it. And most people like, yeah, like I hate Scarlett Scarlett's this and that.
And again, she was like, man, she was like, I really like Scarlett. She's just misunderstood.
Like she's like, I identify with her. She's just misunderstood. I'm not should have been my life.
But you know, it's so funny about that. I am we're not going to go all into that. But the

(01:17:49):
relationship that I had that I alluded to before my wife, the very first relationship that I had,
she loved that movie too. And it was the same exact. That was one of her favorite movies. And
she was like, Oh, I love Scarlett O'Hara. And she just misunderstood. And she had a lot of narcissistic
tendencies to we could dive in all her crap, but that would take forever. Yeah, it's the same thing
though. You know, and what's interesting is going back to the similarities between your ex-wife

(01:18:15):
and what my father did was it was a lot of the same thing is, well, I expected you to be a better
man than this. And it was always attacking your manhood. It was always attacking your integrity,
character. And you know, even, you know, I was talking about the whole Madden example, where he
was like, you cheated at Madden when you were eight, it was they would always exploit those

(01:18:36):
small things that were like character flaws, because we're all not perfect, right? We all make
mistakes. There's all things that happen. And even as a kid, there's even things that you have to
learn and grow from. But those things are the things that they will attach themselves onto and
say, listen, you are not good and a terrible person because of this. And if you want help,

(01:18:57):
you have to listen to what I'm telling you. And if you don't listen to what I'm telling you,
you are a terrible person. And it is very easy to believe because in a lot of situations, and I
knew your ex-wife and things like that, you know, and at first I did like her. I at first, I did
like her until I started seeing the way that she was treating you and the way that it was changing.
But it seemingly because what I say she was successful, no, but she was in school, she was

(01:19:20):
in choir. She was a very prominent member of the church that we had at the time. She like, if I'm
not mistaken, she was like involved in Sunday school, involved in the youth group and things like
that. And so you're sitting here going, okay, this is a godly person, seemingly you would think, okay,
this is a good example to follow after because she is doing all the right things. And then the same

(01:19:41):
thing with my father, it's like, okay, he has a really good job. He came from nothing, right? He
came from the middle of nowhere and came from nothing. And now he's got money and status and
success and all this stuff. But again, all of that is a facade. And all of that is it's kind of like,
I remember the my cousin Vinny part where it's like, they could show you the cards and how it

(01:20:02):
has straight edges and how it has all this stuff. But if you look at it, it's all it's thin as a
playing card. And it's like, because it's not true, it's not there. And it's the same thing. It's
like, they'll show you every little thing. And it's very easy to go, okay, these are solid bricks,
like these are solid bricks that build a house. But it's really just as thin as that playing
card, there's not anything that is actually a substance there. And I think, and let me ask

(01:20:26):
you this question, as you started getting away from that situation, was that really when you
started seeing more? Because for me personally, I would say that being in the situation, it was so
hard to see out of the situation. Like even if there was people who were on the outside looking
in and saying, Hey, man, he's not treating you right. Or hey, that girlfriend is not treating

(01:20:48):
you right. Or hey, that boss is not treating you right. It's like, well, yeah, I get you. But
you don't really understand because they're just trying to help me out and they're trying to make
me successful. And they're trying to help me do these things. Was that a lot of the same feelings
that you had as well? Yeah, so a lot of I can go into many stories, but fast forwarding it. So

(01:21:09):
when we're having our issues, right, they were like, okay, we're gonna go to you're gonna go to
counseling, she picked the counselor right because it was recommended. And so what happened is we
only ever went to one and this will tell you, I will not say the counselor's name, but the counselor
I had, she should have her license removed because there was only one time where she

(01:21:31):
counseled us together and she counseled us separately while we were going through this.
And what was crazy was and I knew narcissistic tendency is I got to get the story out first.
So she actually had the visit with her first, right? The very first session. The counselor did.
And so I remember when I went to my session a couple of days later, I was kind of like sharing

(01:21:52):
like, okay, this is what I'm experiencing. This is how she made me feel. And she stopped, she said,
well, it's so easy to focus on what other people are doing. You should focus on what you're doing
and take accountability for that. And it was like, okay. And so I remember and I feel like they were
working together, bro, like they were like working together because even, you know, when we were

(01:22:16):
talking after these sessions and stuff, my ex wife would tell me she was like, yeah, well, I talked
with our counselor. I'm not going to say her name. And she said that you, you are a closet
narcissist. You're a narcissist that doesn't realize they're a narcissist. And so that
projected onto you. And like, even now, still, there are times where that tries to pop in my head

(01:22:37):
where it's like your closet. So she said the counselor said that the way for us to save our
marriage was to get a divorce. And so the only time we met, we met one time before we met a
second time and the second time was to sign divorce papers. So, which was a week later. So we, we

(01:22:58):
met and I remember just like sharing like, Hey, like, I poured my heart out, like I poured my
heart out. And as cold as like my ex wife said, well, I've heard you say all this before. And
that was it. Like no, like, I was like, holy crap. And so it took me a while to go back to a second

(01:23:19):
counselor because the first counselor I had like a trauma thing, I was like, okay, if I have a
counselor, I'm gonna, and he helped me understand like, he was like, dude, that's not normal. He was
like, you don't deserve to be treated that way. He was like, this is not normal. Like that doesn't
like who made her the end all be all authority on who you are. Like, yeah, do you have flaws?

(01:23:43):
Yeah, but that's not who you are. And he was like, just from meeting with you, I can tell
that you're not that way because you have this and he started naming all the ways like, I know
that's what it counts like a good counselor supposed to do is supposed to help affirm you
and supposed to help you. But like he said, you are literally like a good person. Like,
and when you said that like it made me and so when in those moments I would get in those fights,

(01:24:06):
I'd be like, because we've talked about it, Mike and I have talked about where it would be go back
a fourth where it was like, okay, I've tasted my freedom. But I'm also still feeling like, okay,
God wants me to make my marriage work. But my marriage was over, right? She was the one who
chose not to be married anymore. And so I said, I got to do everything I can to fight for my marriage.

(01:24:28):
So I was like, okay, but then when I would do that, and then she would go back to the way that she
was before I was like, hold up, wait a second, like, I shouldn't be treated like this. I'm bringing
things up from six years ago, like, okay, but like, smooth on a different person now.

(01:24:48):
And so then whenever I would stand up, it was like a, well, your anger is getting out of control,
or I'm not going to talk to you if I'm going to be disrespected. And I'd be like, and I'd be like,
you know what? No, so that's when I started to see like, because my mom, my mom said,

(01:25:09):
you know, during all that, she was like, yeah, she's a narcissist. And that's when the term first
real, the term narcissists and toxic was first starting to be used before people were using it.
And I was like, yeah, like, no, like, yeah, I think this is right, because people like people
would tell me all the, all the time, like, hey, like, she, you know, she's kind of an issue. Like,
and I was like, Oh, well, people just think she's dramatic, but you don't know her like,

(01:25:33):
you just don't understand her. Yeah. And so it's one of those things like people tell you,
but until you see for yourself, you're like, hold up, like, and everything with her, it was always
someone else's fault, like with her working in the school is like, Oh, yeah, this person,
they've got a heart issue because this and that, and I've got a problem out to get me out to get
me because of this or that. And yeah, and everybody that was competition because she was a singer.

(01:26:00):
So like anybody that was competition, it was like, Oh, they're, they're bad. They may be a good
singer, but they don't have a good heart. And this and that, like I wouldn't do it this way. And so
it's like, yeah, you just look back and you have all those things. And you know, so Mike, Mike,
do you have any more questions on that? Cause I was going to kind of shift gears. Do you have
any more questions? Yeah, I was, I was thinking about shifting gears as well. The only question

(01:26:23):
that I had, cause I was going to wrap it up something that I think too, I didn't realize how
much content we had on here and how much we had to say, because I definitely think we needed to
part two and talk about some things in a part two. I don't know when that part two will happen,
maybe a few episodes from now, but I definitely think we need a part two on this. But personally,

(01:26:43):
my last question was going to be, okay, so say that we have somebody who's watching this episode
and they're like, holy crap, I'm with a narcissist or these tendencies are exactly what I see in
whatever relationship capacity that you have with another person. What would you say,

(01:27:03):
how would you say is the best way to either combat that and get out of that or
and heal from it? I mean, that's, that's what, what would you say? I know that's a really
loaded question. But what do you think? That's hard because, and it's funny, this is why we're
friends because I have as a question I was going to ask you. So I think a lot of it is you, depending

(01:27:26):
on who it is in your family, right? For you as your dad, right? If you're married to one, I'm not
saying get a divorce. Okay, hear me out. Okay, but you also, I would recommend a counselor,
you need to talk this through and see, Hey, is this person really a narcissist because everyone

(01:27:47):
is labeled a narcissist, right? Like people use that and people use that as they get out of jail
free car. So I would say narcissist will use that as a get out of jail free card. They'll call
other people narcissists. These are kind of tendencies that you can see with a narcissist.
Do they affirm you as a person or are they constantly trying to tear you down? Is everything,

(01:28:08):
when you bring up accountability, do they deflect or do they take ownership of it? Because a narcissist
will always deflect and say, you're the problem. But a person who really and truly says, you know
what? I did mess up. I'm sorry. Now, narcissists can have the trick of, I'm sorry, but you may

(01:28:30):
need to react this way. So then they're turning it back on you. I would also say narcissists also
tend to try to control and manipulate situations. And if you're in close proximity with one,
they will try to control and dictate who you can and can't hang out with. So ask people around you,
like ask your friends, if all your friends and your family are saying, yeah, that person is

(01:28:54):
like kind of a narcissist. Then that's probably true. But I would say counseling man and you,
the thing with narcissists, full blown narcissist, it's going to take an act of God for them to
change. It is going to take a heart change that only the Holy Spirit can provide. And so you can
pray for them. But at the same time, narcissists are very dangerous. So you're going to have to

(01:29:19):
draw boundaries. Okay. So if it's with a family member, you're going to say, okay,
maybe not cut off the whole relationship because, but say, Hey, these are our boundaries.
And if that person crosses your boundaries, cut them off. Like they have a related, you say,
Hey, here's a line and they keep stepping over the line. They're not going to, because that's

(01:29:41):
something with narcissists, they're going to test you and say, Hey, like, Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah,
you said there were boundaries, but that doesn't apply to me. Because right. So I don't know.
It's kind of like case by case situation. Some time you're just going to have to put it on
distance. Counseling helps. I mean, drawing boundaries is a huge one. So what would you say?

(01:30:07):
So I want to piggyback everything that you said is 100% correct. The other thing that I would
say, and I think this is the same thing just kind of rephrased. If you're in a situation and you
want to look at these situations and say it is a 50 50 relationship, if you're not having a symbiotic
relationship. And what I mean by symbiotic is everybody is giving the same amount of effort,

(01:30:30):
love, support, caring, both ways. If you're not having that, if it's literally and because what
will happen in a lot of these situations and every narcissistic relationship that I've been in,
is they will tell you, Hey, I'm giving your part. In fact, I'm giving more than what you're giving,
but really and truly you're the one working the hardest. You're the one giving 110% and they're

(01:30:53):
giving negative 10. All they are telling you is that you're the problem and that you need to work
harder. That is a clear sign that Hey, something is wrong. They keep moving the goalposts for you to
earn their love or earn their affection or earn their praise. And that is again, why we're friends
because the next point that I was going to say, if the love is conditional, if the love is conditional,

(01:31:17):
and you know, this goes beyond narcissism, like there are other people who have conditional love
too. So this is on that same front, but if the love is conditional, right? Okay, you need to do
this or I'm not giving you this. That is not true love. That is not true love. Like, yeah, they may
love the idea of you, but a lot of what they're loving the idea of is the fact that either they

(01:31:39):
can control you or what they can get out of you. That is literally all that it is. And so if you're
finding yourselves in those situations, I think a lot of those are the biggest keys of seeing.
And that's what I saw was Hey, these relationships are not symbiotic. It is not a two way street is
a one way street. I am literally doing all the work and you know, again, going back to the whole

(01:32:00):
telephone call, and my father never called me. I called him, right? And I was the one who had to
call him. He would text me and be like, call me. It was always you have to be the one to take the
actions. You have to be the one to do these things. And then you're still the problem at the end of
the day. I think the biggest thing if you find yourselves in those situations, and this is way

(01:32:22):
easier said than done way easier said than done from somebody who has gone through it and has
stepped away from this scenario. It is incredibly hard. You have to find a way to get some sort of
space like Chris was talking about with the boundaries that is you set the boundaries,
right? That's step one, you set the boundaries and say, Hey, this is the level that I'm comfortable

(01:32:44):
with you cross this line. It's not good. That is putting the ball in their court. If you put the
ball in their court and you tell them, Hey, this is the boundary that I've said, and they supersede
that and say, I don't really care about your boundary. I don't really care about what you think.
And you're the problem for putting a boundary up. It's time to recede even further back. Keep them
at arms distance because now they're showing you, Hey, I don't care about you. I don't care about

(01:33:10):
because anybody and this is what I learned from my therapist. This is what I've learned. Even my
grandmother has told me this and you know, we have our own thing. But the thing is, it's like,
if you have a relationship that is worth any sort of value and they value the relationship,
if you put a boundary in place, say, I don't want you to go anywhere past this point. I don't want

(01:33:30):
you like, for instance, I talked to my family and I was like, listen, I'm having problems with my
parents. I'd rather not talk about it is a problem between me and them. We're not talking about it.
The majority of my family was like, I honor and respect that because they want to keep the relationship.
I'll even give another example. There was a, and one of the things that blew my mind back in the

(01:33:53):
day was we had across the street neighbors who were lesbians, right? And for religious folks,
that is huge, right? Especially nowadays, it's no big deal. But for old school people, like we
were, that was a really big deal. And so I met there, one of the ladies' mothers. And I remember
sitting there talking with her and she was Southern Baptist, very traditional Southern Baptist,

(01:34:15):
very hardcore, but she loved her daughter and still spent time with her daughter, loved daughter's
wife, all this stuff, right? And I remember asking her like, how, because all of my family's
experience and a lot of things, it's like, if I turn out to be gay, oh my God, I'd be ostracized,
they wouldn't love me. It'd be, I'd be out way over here, right? And so how did you get to that

(01:34:36):
point? And she says, well, I don't like it. I don't agree with it. I believe that they're going to
hell. But at the same time, I love my daughter enough to where I want to have the relationship.
And that's the way that she wants to live. I've already told her I don't agree with what it is.
But I told her once, she knows how I feel. But at the same time, that doesn't mean that I love her
any less, and then I'm not going to have a relationship with her. And that's the key difference.

(01:35:00):
It's, are they going to put you out here and say, no, and have that condition in place of you put a
boundary here, and you're living your life and whatever, and I'm going to throw you out over
here until you do what I want you to do. Or are they going to say, Hey, I disagree with what
you're doing, but I love and support you. And I wish you wouldn't. But at the same time, that's

(01:35:20):
not going to affect the way that I treat you. That's a huge thing for me. Now, I will have to
follow up with this because with narcissists, everything is a game. So make sure you give
yourself that free space, but also make sure you don't get sucked back in because you can put up
that boundary and they will appear to change. But really and truly, if they can get you back into

(01:35:40):
their clutches, they'll do anything. They'll be nice or show you a little bit of change enough
for you to be like, okay, I can let them back in. Yeah. And when you're back to turn, it's like,
Oh, they snapped right back. That happened. That happened to me where it was like, Oh, yeah, like,
maybe they've changed, but then it's like, hold up, wait, they go back to them. They get you.

(01:36:01):
And it's once they get you in, it's not that much harder to get out. It's that whole thing about,
you know, how it talks about in the Bible, God breaks you free of the chains and, you know,
you get back into it. It comes back sevenfold. It really does. I mean, it's so much harder to
get back out of it after you're back in it. I think a lot of that is, and how to combat that as
well. Again, don't say too much. You put those boundaries in place. Bank those boundaries very

(01:36:26):
simple. Don't tell them the intent behind the boundaries because if you tell them the intent
behind the boundaries, they will twist that and go, okay, I know what they're looking for.
I know what they're looking for. And so now I will give them what they're looking for to get back in
that situation and go, okay, because there's a lot of situations that I've been like, you know what,

(01:36:48):
I'm going to keep it very discreet. I'm not going to say anything. And they end up showing their
hand. They end up showing their hand and go, okay, we haven't changed at all. And so if you give them
too much information, that's what gets very hard is if you give them too much information, they
can really, it's almost like a chameleon, they can change their color to be like, oh no, I'm in
alignment with you and I want to have this whole thing. But all it is is about control. The other

(01:37:12):
thing and the last thing that I'm going to say because we are way over time is you do not want
to give them any sort of ultimatum. Do not give a narcissist ultimatum. I've seen that happen
multiple times. They view that as a challenge. Okay, you don't ever want to talk to me ever again.
Challenge. Now I'm going to get you back. Now I'm going to get you back. And so they will fight

(01:37:36):
everything because that's a source of pride. That is a weird sick thing that's like you were out.
And now you're back in. Now you're my trophy. I got you back. Look what I did. I'm in control of
you. I got the hook in your mind. And so you have to be very careful about these people. And again,
we really need to part two. We really need to part two. Yeah, maybe next week or two weeks after.

(01:37:56):
But yeah, going on, Micah and Chris's therapy session.
Of narcissism and all the crap we've dealt with. That helps someone. And so thank you guys for
listening. Speaking of aviation and Micah being a prodigy pilot at two years old. Go check out
Trash Travel. He's got a lot of aviation stuff. He's coming up with some really good ideas. He told

(01:38:19):
me about them. I'm not going to share with them. You guys are just going to have to watch for them
and go subscribe. Yeah, man. Over at Trash Can Travel and over here at the Trash Can Network,
or you can search at the Donut Box podcast and come see your gorgeous faces. If you're not seeing
us already on YouTube, if you're ever on Spotify. And again, that is D O U G H in UT Box podcast.

(01:38:40):
And we're, we're really rocking and rolling. I'm enjoying, you know, being on camera. I was
really nervous about doing it before. Kind of because the narcissist in life and some of the
things that have gone on before, but at the same time, I'm really enjoying being on camera. I'm
enjoying this aspect of things. And so come check us out over there. Trash Can Travel is, is really

(01:39:01):
got some great stuff coming up, you know, in some really good videos. Go check that out as well.
But, you know, we really love and appreciate you guys. We love our fans out there. We're growing
ever so steadily and I'm super excited the direction that we're going. And again, kind of like Chris
said, I really hope this helps somebody, even if this helped one person in their situation,
understand the situation, maybe get out of their narcissistic situation. I'm happy for you. If

(01:39:26):
that is what ends up happening from this, I really hope so. And I do firmly believe that
there's somebody out here who can use that to this information and help you. So, you know,
please, if you're hearing this and you're like, man, this really resonates in my heart, you know,
listen to what we have said and, you know, take the lessons that we have gone through and try
to not go through as hard of times because everything that we've said has come out of

(01:39:50):
really hard experiences. So, you know, we love you guys. That's pretty much all I got to say.
You can do it. You can get out of that situation and have my pastor Jedi power. So,
drop in the comments and you can text here too. No, I'm just kidding. All right. Well,
it's one or two, one or two. It's time for the Starship to take it. So, I'm Chris.

(01:40:11):
And this is it. We'll see you later.

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S4 E10: Overcoming and Disarming Narcissists

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