S4 E4: Healing From Church Hurt

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
This week on the DonaBox podcast, Chris and I talk about our church hurts, how we've overcome them, and what we're doing in our lives now about it.

(00:08):
Ooh, that sounds like a really interesting episode. So I'm ready to dive in. Let's roll the intro.
Hi, I'm Micah. And I'm Chris. And we've been friends for over 20 years.
Surprisingly, we haven't killed each other yet. Years ago, we started our own variety show, and it sucked.
Now that we're adults, we decided to give it another try. And you know what it says, like in the movie, life is like a box of donuts.

(00:29):
You never know which one's going to be the next one.
Wait a second. It's chocolate. Life is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're going to get.
Oh, right. Okay. Well, let's start the show.
This is the DonaBox podcast.
We've got a heck of an episode like we had talked about in the intro there. But man, it's another week of the DonaBox podcast.

(00:54):
We are on to episode four of season four. So four and four, fofo.
I ain't even gonna sing them lyrics. Fofo's tipping. But man, how you feeling, dude? We are on episode four of this third year into this thing.
I am feeling great. It's funny that you say that because I've been, I've been listening to a lot of Texas rap.

(01:18):
And if you don't know what Texas rap is, it is different. It's different, man. It's got that.
There's a lot of like sing song type lyrics, but like, it's fun to jam for sure. But I'm doing great, man.
I'm excited for this episode next week. Did you know next week is our Christmas episode?
Yeah, next week is our Christmas episode. You know what, man? It's going to be kind of interesting because, you know, Chris kind of talked about it last week.

(01:44):
I'm typically not a Christmas guy, but I've actually been somewhat in the Christmas spirit.
So it's going to be interesting to see how our Christmas episode turns out this year. I know that Christmas episode, that first year of season one, really is near and dear.
It's near and dear to my heart. And so like, it's always hard because like, man, I want to top that, that Christmas episode.
I'll probably even listen to that Christmas episode and see what we can do. But I'm super, I'm super thrilled about the Christmas episode next week.

(02:11):
This is a rabbit hole and we'll, I promise we'll jump in. Have you watched any Christmas movies yet?
Believe it or not, yes. So my wife and I, while we were setting up for Christmas, one of hers is the Muppets Christmas Carol.
Oh, I love that one. I love that one. That's great.
So, so yeah, we, and typically I'm not a musical person, but you know, it's Christmas.

(02:33):
And then we watched another one like my wife.
And I don't know if you've ever seen this one. It's very early 2000s late 90s animatronics or not animatronics animation. It's called the nuttiest nutcracker.
Have you seen that one before? Oh, it's, it's, it's really weird. I don't, it's, it's one of those like, it's kind of like the movie hit man for me.

(02:57):
It's a B rated movie that like is nostalgic to them because they had the DVD since they were like two years old.
And it's kind of interesting. The only part that I remember is like there's a scene of like all the holiday foods and there's like a bunch of beans that they're like passing gas and they're like got all this green aroma around them and they're like making all the other vegetables like pass out.
I don't know. It's like, it's kind of an interesting movie.

(03:20):
So we watched that one. And then we watched the Jim Carrey Grinch. That was that was my pick.
If I'm going to watch that one for closer to Christmas.
Yeah, you know, Jim Carrey said we're going on another rabbit hole. This is definitely not what we're talking about in the Dona Box podcast today, but we're going to keep talking about this.
You know, Jim Carrey actually came out and said, you know, a lot of people get it, get it twisted that the Grinch really didn't hate Christmas. He didn't like people.

(03:47):
It was just like, that was the whole point. Like everybody thinks like the Grinch was like, I get like anti Christmas, but he was anti Christmas because of people.
And like, that's pretty understandable and relatable. Like I can get that too. So yeah, you I think you identify with that.
Yes, I do. Yes, I do. But anyways, onto bigger and better things of what's going on this week in the Dona Box podcast.

(04:12):
We're going to talk about our religious adventures, if you will, I guess.
And mentors. I like that word.
Yeah, it was a journey adventure.
It's our faith journey. That's a better word. Faith.
I'm going to use a church term with you. Faith.
Yeah. Okay. Faith journey. And you're going to take a nice trip here with MC ministries. I'm joking.

(04:38):
It's no, I'm sorry.
But we're going to talk about some of this stuff. So I'm going to go a little bit briefly into my history, even before I met Chris here.
I'm kind of the religious background that I came from. So my family was five generations of Pentecostal and that is a sub sub sect of Christianity.

(05:04):
I mean, you could get down to the nitty gritty if you wanted to put it into a big like tree deal that trickled down. It's like way way down there into the weeds.
I don't know the history of it, but there was quite a few sub sects of Christianity that came from the Azusa Street Revivals. If you've ever heard of that, this was one that came out of that, that time if you want to look that up, you can look that up to kind of see where the origins of that came from.

(05:29):
But pretty much it's a lot of rules and regulations. Most people see them kind of in public and most identifiable is probably the ladies because they can't wear pants. They have to wear skirts dresses and it has to be either three quarter length or longer.
So typically we're not talking about skirts like we're talking about like you got to wear like full dress kind of thing. And then you have to wear your hair up in a certain kind of manner and no makeup, no jewelry, that sort of thing like it's, it's one of those kind of deals.

(06:03):
And like the guys used to, and this is a whole controversy, they wouldn't weren't allowed to shave or like they had to shave sorry they weren't allowed to grow their facial hair so like Chris here, sit her out there you I'd be going to hell I guess and not do with your with your with your beard there.
And so, that's kind of where I came from and then I grew up part of my life in South Mississippi and not just that went to a homegrown Pentecostal church that had some family members help start and is still down there today and they still go to that church.

(06:38):
So I had some interaction there, but what ended up happening when I was about five years old is I ended up moving to Germany and reason being is because my father he ended up getting we as a family all got shipped over to Germany, like you do in the military and that was his duty station was over there so we go over there and it
was kind of a different thing because my parents were getting out of being Pentecostal at the time which is it's a doing to kind of do that because again, being five generations in your very much taught it's this way or no way like this is the right way there is no other right way besides this so to

(07:15):
explore other things is just how do you let me pause you real quick they believe that other Christians are probably like if you're Baptist or Methodist or any other denomination you're going to hell is that right.
Do they believe that for the most part and yeah it varies but yeah like you can believe but there's only one way to believe and if you're believing any other way then it's just not the right way.

(07:43):
It's like it's I've heard it being called a crap shoot before, like as bad as it is it really depends on who their target enemy is like the cap like if you say Catholics like oh yeah going to hell for sure like it's a bunch of rituals like they're not doing anything, which is funny because
Pentecostals in there and it's a bunch of rituals to but anyways, not to get into those weeds but for some sub sex yes it's like immediate like oh those guys are bound for it and then there's some that's like well they could you know they somehow are doing right and they're close enough kind of thing right but most of the time now.

(08:17):
And so ended up going to the military chapel which is kind of a it's a hodgepodge really you have a chaplain.
It's not a nominational and they try to cater to everyone the only other people that they tried to cater to were Catholics like I remember there was Catholic Mass, and then you had the everybody else service like it was, you know, everybody else.

(08:39):
And so we did that and remember my mother sang for the church and all that other stuff my father was deployed in Iraq and all sorts of stuff at, you know at the time.
So a lot of that was more in this chapel and that's what kind of made me see outside of being Pentecostal.
I remember a lot of times in Sunday school kind of being confused because being taught certain Pentecostal things and then coming to Sunday school in such a, it was a lot more open of an environment, of course not a nomination where they're trying to cater to everybody, and not just that your Sunday

(09:16):
school teacher is, you know, somebody, one of your, the person your father is working with friends who's, you know, deployed with them and so they're not there and they're just trying to fill their time and so, like you get kind of this mixed bag experience and I remember the first
time asking somebody, I remember being in the end of this kind of weird but do you remember I wanna like I remember joining a wanna.

(09:42):
I remember joining a wanna.
I remember that one of the guys was a big and if you guys don't know what a wanna is, a wanna is like a very big it's like a boy scout for Christian or like boy scouts or girl scouts for like Christian.
Kind of kind of they really focus on scripture memory bringing a front like you get patches and so it is like the scout thing and you wear the best.

(10:10):
And just like in the scouts, you know how boys got your like a cub scout and then you move up to regular boy scout it was kind of the same thing like I remember the younger kids you were a spark and then until you got like a certain number of jewels in your little like Jesus
crown or whatever it was.
Once you got enough jewels, I still got my little thing I remember, I've got.

(10:31):
What you do bro you have to bring it dude.
I've never seen this ladies and gentlemen the 21 years I'm knowing it's in a storage unit like buried in a box somewhere but it's it's there.
But like, I never end up making it because we were only in it for about two years because we were only stationed there for about three years but I, a long story short I remember where my classroom was and where they had all of us was in the basement of my elementary

(10:58):
school and so there's like a classroom space in the basement of the military school and I remember talking to this lady and she was I don't remember what the subject matter was, but I just remember stopping her and being like, yeah but it's not like
Catholics or Methodists or any of these other people are going to heaven, and they're like, no, as long as you believe in everything like that like you're going to heaven. And that was the first time like I had heard the concept of like wait Catholics Methodist, you know, Lutherans everybody

(11:29):
else they're they're going to heaven do really like that's that's a thing. And so I remember like that moment just I was really flabbergasted as a kid I was like wait that's that's wild and I remember. I mean think about this ladies and gentlemen I was like five or six and like that was
something that stood out my memory so it definitely impacted me. And then fast forward a little bit. Towards the end of the time in Germany. When my father was back from deployment and things like that. He said, Okay, I'm missing.

(12:02):
So part of being Pentecostal is the Holy Spirit. How would you describe it like the worship is different. Like, it's hard for me. So let me kind of explain it so basically with denominations.
95% of what they believe is the same. Okay, when it comes to the basics. Okay, so like, did God create the earth right God created the earth Jesus came down here on earth he's the son of God died for our sins right baptism all those things.

(12:37):
A lot of them, the big stuff like what what is sin what's not sin like the 10 commands a lot of that stuff they agree on, but the little 5% is where people get hung up and it's more about in practicing your faith.
So with Pentecostals, they're more charismatic, which means they believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, which you know, if you read in first Corinthians chapter 13, if you want to do that on your own way first Corinthians 12 through verse 14, all that gets our chapters 12 through 14 talks about spiritual

(13:10):
gifts and like how the Holy Spirit operates. And so they believe that like the Holy Spirit empowers people today and that's where a lot of like the speaking and tongues and stuff comes from and so they're more charismatic in practicing the gifts, versus a Lutheran who's very reserve
things are very ritualistic method, methodists right that's why they're called method this because they did a method right. So that's probably what your personal unit was missing like I missed the charismatic practice of worship or the worship element the

(13:44):
worship aspect of it and then what you were talking about in the speaking of tongues is the same same way like they were my my folks were missing that whole aspect because take for instance that those church services we were having in the non denominational,
you know, catering for everybody. There is in regular Pentecostal services, there is a lot of raising of hands hooping and holler and speaking in tongues it's very vocal it's very out loud there's very much.

(14:17):
You know, there's, you hear what's going on like it's not a, it's not a quiet thing versus you go to, again, I like to use Catholic masses because a lot of people are familiar with Catholicism, but it's a little bit more reserved.
So if you are using instruments it's probably just acoustic instruments and it's probably like music. A lot of the times Pentecostal worship is pumping like when I'm talking about like pumping, like I'm talking like it's high beats a minute and it's, you know, a lot of times it's

(14:49):
very repetitious, but like a lot of it is meant for you to go wild and crazy with it like it's supposed to be pumping to get you get you pumping. Yeah, it's serves up a lot of emotion and we can we'll go into this a little bit later and that's where the Pentecostals take the verses in the Bible and they go way the opposite way and it's it's chaotic and it's

(15:12):
like hey, you look at some of those Pentecostal services. And again, let me just preface this ladies and gentlemen we're not trying to bash churches we're not trying to bash Jesus like both of us are believers and we both, you know, have faith in Jesus Christ but some of the
things that we grew up we realized hey like the way that we're practicing our faith is not right but like with these Pentecostal services the music is high-paced to get your emotions going so what you may think is the Holy Spirit is just you like the Holy Spirit is not going to cause you to go run into a wall or to do a backflip.

(15:46):
Right, which we have seen happen like that's that's the whole thing is it's not. We've seen those things happen even in the environment that we were in together Chris and I but that's that's coming down the road here.
So my folks were missing that aspect of it. We actually were going to a Christian bookstore that was in in Germany it was in this little town or whatever. And I don't know I really don't know because this was in Germany this was not like on a military base or anything, but these

(16:19):
Americans had had bought a bookstore or something like that and made a Bible bookstore. And so like they went to go over there because I mean if you have American shops like especially in Germany like on in town and whatnot that's kind of a special thing and so you go and do stuff like that.
Well we went and we were looking around and there wasn't a ton of people, but we could hear like. So I'm just gonna say there's not to bring race into it but like it was owned by an African American couple and so like, if you've ever been to, if you've ever been to black church, and I'm talking like

(16:56):
a black gospel church. You want to talk about some pumping music and so like we heard some pumping music coming from out back. And it was one of those things like oh they're having their revival tonight like it was like a Friday night or something like that
and oh they have a revival tonight. And man I remember it was like walking there and it was like people get like laid hands on they falling out like you had you had aunties like doing this number and like I mean it was, it was wild and chaotic like that but at the same time, like my parents, they were like we

(17:28):
were like we were like we were looking at home like this is this is what we were looking for this is great. And I remember that being such a such a harsh switch from going from one to the other, and not just that but it's.
This was also different.
And we've never really talked about this, but you know, African American Pentecostal and Caucasian white Pentecostal are way two different things.

(17:53):
It's interesting how those two things have separated and you're talking about Pentecostal on one end and Pentecostal on the other end they look totally different, but they they believe similarly but they look different.
And so I remember even feeling out of place not because of the racial thing but the culture was different it was a different Pentecostal than what I was used to.

(18:14):
And so, that was already kind of a weird thing. But what ended up happening was we were only in that church environment for about six months four to six months, then it's like okay, we get the marching orders to go back to the United States.
And that's where we pick up where I met Christopher, where he was going to church you want to give a little backstory of where you were at before we met it.

(18:38):
Yeah, so my family, my mom and dad grew up Baptist. So there's a lot of Baptist roots and again, Southern Baptist is a big deal which Baptist and Southern Baptist again Southern Baptist is very strict like very, very strict.
It's not Baptist are not like they're not going to be running around the church or speaking in tongues or they're not the stuff that the Pentecostals are doing but there are a lot of strict rules.

(19:05):
How do I put this like Southern Baptist is like the DeMere Pentecostal like I don't like using the word like DeMere like but it's like it's like they're kind of like they were like they do some of the stuff the Pentecostals do but it's almost like more like there's rules and regulation but it's almost like more classy I don't know how to describe it like it's more like a it's just different it's just different.

(19:27):
I guess so we so I grew up in church so my dad was friends with this pastor pastor Roger and I guess he went to go start his own church and my dad went like to go help him.
And it was in this office building and the church was only 50 people I promise you was probably maybe 50 people and it never grew and it was called Overcomers Outreach and and so it was more geared towards the way my parents put it it was more of a 12 step program than to act then like actually but what was crazy is most people that went there weren't

(20:06):
struggling with addiction that I knew of maybe I'm maybe they were and I just didn't know when I was a kid but I remember something happened and my mom started going to where we went started going and I think there were some other things that happened with the pastor I remember my dad being like yeah the pastor was sharing with him like all the congregation members problems and stuff.

(20:34):
I think like business personal business I think like he was doing it as a like to combine in my dad because when you're a pastor and you're carrying all this weight like who are you going to combine it but my dad was my dad was kind of like it's not right for me to know all these people's businesses like you shouldn't be telling me their business.
So I know there was part of that I don't I don't know why they left. So we ended up going Mike and I met at an Assemblies of God church and so Assemblies of God they still fall under the Pentecostal realm like umbrella.

(21:09):
But Assemblies of God do not have as many strict rules so you can have facial hair you can wear jeans like there when you on the service level there's not as many rules but I would say it is very legalistic in the sense of it's all it's all about serving right like they're very big on serving.

(21:33):
So okay, I think I'm sorry to interrupt you I think a good way for to put it Assemblies of God was kind of applied heat and pressure on the rules of like here's what you need to do and it was the applied pressure on the back like you felt it but it wasn't necessarily 100% in your face.

(21:54):
The Pentecostal experience that got like that's 100% in your face a lot of the time like a lot of times it'll be you're not doing enough because of that.
And maybe necessarily when we were in the Assemblies of God aspect or in that area, it still was in your face but a lot of it was expectation and you knew what the expectation was more than somebody coming and putting a finger in your face saying you're wrong.

(22:19):
And when we're talking about a certain denomination again not all Assemblies of God are this way.
No, this is just our experience with you.
Yeah, just our experience because our church so there's Pentecostal umbrella then there's Assembly of God which is another umbrella and then there's Church of God which is falls under the Assemblies of God.

(22:43):
Whatever, it's a confusing thing. So where we went, I don't know, I enjoyed it and I remember like it was a big church.
I think it's still considered, I don't know if it's still considered a big church now but it was right off the interstate right off the highway so there's a lot of traffic.

(23:04):
It was in Church of God but I think you would probably consider it now a non-denominational church in the sense.
And even back then they would talk about Assemblies of God and how that was their backing but they even called themselves non-denominational back then.
Like I remember they called themselves non-denominational but they would always preface it with but we have an Assemblies of God backing and that's where the majority of our beliefs come from.

(23:32):
Yeah, so I remember being like this church is awesome. This church is great.
I think we're children's church as an old church. It was like six kids but coming there and the worship was cool, the stage was cool and it was definitely, all they did was definitely geared towards getting people to come to church who didn't go to church there.

(23:56):
So it was very outreach focused, very evangelistic I would say in their approach because they had kind of the bells and whistles and like, oh this is really cool.
And so I don't think it really, even in the first few years of elementary and then middle school, you didn't really notice it. It was once you started.

(24:19):
So this is where Assemblies of God and Pentecostal, they kind of stray off the mark a little bit, right?
So just to give you, I'm going to put on my pastor hat just for a little bit. So they talk about, you know, they believe that the church in Acts, right, how the early church was when the day of Pentecost came and hence where they got their name right, the Holy Spirit,

(24:44):
empowered the believers and that was the Holy Spirit, you know, being active and present in the world today, which is true.
And the Holy Spirit allowed the disciples to be able to speak in different languages, right? And so there is a gift of what's called gift of tongues and then there's, which is praying or speaking in a different language.
Now the Bible is very clear about if you speak in tongues in a public setting that there needs to be an interpretation followed up with that, right?

(25:13):
So they believe that the evidence.
One thing, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, one thing though. And what kind of gets interesting in the nitty gritty is tongues spoken in public are different than regular tongues that you're speaking and praying on your own.
You could still pray in tongues out loud and you can have in a room filled with people speaking in tongues, but there is a different tone and demeanor and a different way that it comes across when it's meant for the entire room.

(25:41):
So it's kind of a, it's not just like you can't speak in tongues out loud. No, it's sorry.
This is an again, we're probably going in my, but I think if you're in a room and there's a whole bunch of people speaking in tongues, I don't think that's okay either.
Like it's supposed to be meant for your prayer language to pray between you and God because the Bible says, what if an unbeliever comes into the church and then they hear all these people speaking in tongues, they're going to be like, what the heck is this crap?

(26:09):
They're going to leave. Like the Bible specifically talks about that gift. And so where assemblies of God strays off is they believe that the only way to know that you have the Holy Spirit living in you is if you speak in tongues.
So when you pray to go get filled with the Holy Spirit, they harp on, okay, unless you spoke in tongues, it didn't happen, right?

(26:35):
Which I don't believe is true, right? The Bible says that the Holy Spirit is giving every believer when they put their faith in Jesus Christ. And they almost equate, I feel like they maybe even elevate speaking in tongues more than having salvation in Jesus.
I feel like that.
Yeah, and that's, I mean, it is literally they call it having the evidence of tongues, like it is providing evidence that, hey, and this is where your spiritual activity, and this is really going to come into play later, was monitored really and truly is because on that standard,

(27:09):
if you have that standard, if you're not speaking in tongues and speaking in tongues actively quite frequently, something is going on with your spirit, but we can get to that here in a little bit as well.
I feel like all this needs explanation, man, it's because we're in the weeds.
Yeah, so we, we went and you know, youth group was, we, you know, we thought it was awesome and we talked about this.

(27:36):
Probably two or three weeks ago when we talked about our, like our, about how they had cool parties and they were trying to reach everyone.
And so Micah and I, we were like, I don't know if our parents were heavily involved, but we were heavily involved.
And like, I know like my parents were kind of, we're pretty involved, but like, I felt like we were super involved.
And so, again, you got a small group, all that stuff.

(28:01):
Well, then they have these things which are called encounters, right, which is like, it's like a Friday night, Saturday, and then it used to be Sunday morning where it's like, okay, you're going to get away with God and they do different topics like, it's basically a lock in, right, like you spend the night, all that.
And then it's like, okay, we're going to talk about marriage and dating, we're going to talk about listening to music and what kind of music you can social media and then we're going to talk about the Holy Spirit.

(28:30):
And this, which I think the Holy Spirit doesn't need to be taught, and we can go to this later, but I think the way that they taught it and then at the end you'd be like, how do you have a chance to get filled with the Holy Spirit?
I shouldn't put it in quotation marks because that's not a fake thing. Getting filled with the Holy Spirit is true, but.
Okay.
The reason he's putting it into quotations is so going back to what we were talking about about how a lot of times pumping music can get the emotions going certain things can get the emotions going.

(29:00):
Basically, they would talk to you all day, right and talk to you about, you know, the type of music you're listening to like all the way down the line movies all this stuff, love life like Chris is saying, and then to start off the session where it's like, okay, now you get to basically
get a little bit of a hint for everything and they called it the cross session and what they would do is they would show not the whole passion of the Christ, but just like certain scenes and all the like, if we're being real all the worst like tear jerking like hard scenes, all into one compilation pretty

(29:32):
much. So they make you watch that. And then basically, so you're already like going into this thing pretty.
I mean, if you've done anything wrong in your life, it is flashed through your mind about any time. Oh, I forgot to tell them before you start the encounter you have to fill out this. I don't know if it's a question or it's a form, but as like you have to check like all the sins that you have done right so or even thought about doing

(29:58):
right it's like, and some of them were like the main ones like yeah like pornography lying still, but there were some that was like, I didn't know this was a sin. Oh playing with fire.
That was the one that got me because I remember, I remember filling this thing out and of course I had people helping you fill it out and so I'm like wait playing with fires and it is a sin and they're like they're like absolutely it's a sin.

(30:22):
And so I had to mark play with fire on the thing and then it's like I played Dungeons and Dragons I've owned Pokemon cards. I've owed you Geo cards. I've. Yeah, I've.
What was what was another one there was like, it was a lot of stuff like that there was a lot of stuff like that. So what you would do is it depended on and the early days I don't remember but in the early days during the cross session after the cross session after you watch the passion, whatever, you would either go out to this fire pit and you would like burn the paper you throw the paper the fire or you would.

(31:01):
I think later on, you would take that paper and you would like tape it to the cross like you're leaving all your sins.
We did taping to the cross. Okay. The only reason I have so much experience is because I worked so many of the darn things. There was taping and then one year I or one encounter I remember that they actually built across like a temporary one.

(31:23):
And then they had nails like the big like railroad spike looking one. They like actually had you like I thought that was pretty cool. Like where you like nailed the paper in but like sometimes it was that or it was like the bonfire.
Yeah, I remember when they built that little temporary cross and like people are that I thought that was kind of cool. Now I'm not going to lie. I'm going to I'm going to admit it here on the Dona box podcast.

(31:44):
Not not sins. Okay. I didn't have the kids right down their sins, but I did have them write down one lie that they believed about themselves or about God like on a piece of paper and I had them tape it to a cross.
So I think the exercise is good. But what I'm talking about is the four and I think the four I think the idea was good but like the list of sins some of those should not have made it onto the form like no.

(32:10):
Like if you're struggling with pornography or lying or addiction or whatever like yeah or suicide. Yeah, like feel but like if you're struggling with playing with fire like I think that could have been left off but that's just my opinion.
And so I'm going to go just briefly and reason. A lot of our experience that we had once we got to the youth group was like that it was probably good and intent but an execution.

(32:35):
And maybe things didn't go so well because it wasn't thought out 100% or sometimes that was the case.
So, the youth pastor that we had.
Of course we didn't see a lot of the stuff at first because, you know, when you're when we first came into the youth ministry we were in the sixth grade, right you go in sixth grade.

(32:57):
Chris went a little bit before me because he was a great hire than me.
I remember it was cool like there was a game room there was all sorts of stuff and like you don't think about a lot of this, you know, crazy stuff that's going on.
But reason, you know, our youth pastor was the way that he was first his backstory he was thrust into the position really really early on basically he had started as like a ministry assistant for this one church.

(33:26):
And essentially what happened was that church merged with the church that we were going to like I think they'd bought them out or something.
And so the staff was retained, but they didn't have a youth pastor.
So it was like okay you're the guy because you were basically the incumbent from last time from this last thing. And then he was the youth pastor ever since like that was pretty much what what ended up happening.

(33:49):
But when he took over he was 19 years old and I'm, we were all 19 man, I'm telling you, it had to be a pretty tough road and I'm sure the dude figured out some stuff really early on being a youth pastor 19 moving forward.
But the thing was the church that he come from was fundamentally Pentecostal. And now he goes into an assemblies of God environment where it is a little bit different however the ideals carried over like so.

(34:16):
And I feel like, and maybe I'm wrong on this but I did feel like there was a mix of Pentecostal ideals and assembly even though they're under the same umbrella, like it's kind of this weird inner inner mix of like okay he had his ideology before and then brought it over as well.
And then I feel like, because when we were in his ministry, I think he was in his late 30s early 40s.

(34:42):
And so you got to think 19 to then he's been in there 20 years, things had changed. And so I think, and I hate accusing people but I think where I'm talking about the execution not going very well.
The dude was a master at winging it and you could tell he's been winging it since he was 19, like and I, you know, good on him and I'm sure it worked for a while. But like the thing is, there was a lot of the execution things that just never got refined and polished along the way he still shot from the

(35:14):
hip like he was 19 I feel like a lot of time. Now that's just me kind of stating my opinion, but I think he I think he also so. And again, we're going we're getting really into the weeds but he came to know Christ and gave his life to Christ in the 80s.
And so during the 80s in Christian culture that was very much like turn your Christ or you're going to burn in hell. And that was a lot of what was being preached during that time.

(35:41):
And so like rock and roll was the big thing that was just like do not listen to rock and roll. You know, it was also really, really heavy of why the Dungeons and Dragons came up on the paperwork is because of Dungeons and Dragons at that point.
You know, there would be a lot of these things that would still come up from the 80s, a lot of these 80s ideals of like, you know what don't listen to this. And I mean, just short of being like don't play your records backwards because they have hidden messages kind of thing.

(36:13):
You know what I mean. Now it was one of those in the 80s. When you come to Jesus Christ, burn all your records, you can't go to movies anymore. Like it was pretty much cut everything secular cold turkey and that's pretty and he grew up that way so you can't fault the guy for
No, definitely not knowing or knowing how to do things only one way.

(36:36):
Right. And I think so all that to get to this. I think the product that we're about to talk about in the experience that we're to talk about.
I think it's one of those happenstances of life to where it's not necessarily his fault and it's not necessarily that he did wrong and I think that the intentions were well, but I think that the experience that we had just it impacted us.

(37:01):
And so, by no way am I calling anybody out but at the same time we're going to talk about what happened just want to give that little backstory before go into this so
Chris you started having problems pretty so we're fast forwarding into when we get into high school and we're we're firmly in the ministry we're helping out quite a bit.

(37:25):
And the nutrition is starting to set in because when Chris talked about us being involved.
We were there almost every night of the week, like we were at one point we were there almost every night of the week of course you have Sundays, you have Sundays, and then, depending on what was going on if there was something at event for the week you might be there Monday and Tuesday and

(37:46):
Friday, you know, that is a possibility. But then Thursday night was always our youth night. If we had one of those parties which happened once a month. That would happen on Saturday Friday is preps so pretty much Thursday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday on a party week like you know, like hey you're
going to be you're going to be helping for this. And then of course Sunday you know you're going to be there so four days stacked in there and of course, again if you're performing or doing any because we would do little skits and stuff like that all the time so be personally.

(38:16):
It was like Monday and Tuesday I'm practicing for that and then I'm doing this so it's not uncommon that you would be there every day of the week like that is not uncommon. And not just that but our, our responsibilities were not just limited to the youth.
We did ushering, we did what was called TriCaster, which was, you know, every church has it now but online streaming, our church was pretty, I would say pretty pioneer in that like not a lot of people had online streaming.

(38:49):
Because when we started doing and I think it was like 2008 2009 when we started running it and they had already had it. And so that that was pretty novel but we were doing that on the side as well. And just again we were doing all sorts of, of everything and not to mention, we were kind of becoming the
outsiders Chris and I, it was very interesting it was there was all these clicks forming, and what ended up happening is Chris and I kind of found ourselves on the outside of all those clicks.

(39:18):
Yeah. And through all that time. And you may be wondering like why did you serve so much is in the assemblies of God it's really kind of, it's I would say it's very workspace so it's very don't do this but you need to be serving all this time like your relationship with God is dependent on how much you don't do or how much you do and so your identity and Christ right

(39:42):
is never taught like who I was in Christ it was like oh man you messed up this week so now God doesn't love you or the Holy Spirit is going to leave you or whatever. And so it's like if you serve more than yeah God's going to love you so it's very it's very like give and take or very
workspace which is not scriptural or biblical at all. And so again we started to see these clicks and I mean every youth group has clicks okay right so like that's that's not typical but

(40:11):
it's teenagers it's the it's the normal thing to click up and even adults click up to it happens but keep going sorry. But it became a point where I was like man I don't feel like I fit in here anymore I don't feel like I belong.
And you know of course you're 16 years old so you pop off out the mouth on Facebook and just rant and I remember him calling me in the center.

(40:38):
Yeah our youth pastor and I think more than anything our youth pastor was very good at planning events I think he was doing youth ministry like from an event standpoint and it's pretty similar to other churches I've known that have done youth ministry during that time like he was doing
what all other churches but the big problem I didn't like I would say he was more of a preacher than like a shepherd pastor caring for your people right because I never felt cared for it was always like anytime is like oh don't do this or don't do that or whatever

(41:16):
but like I didn't feel cared for or seen and it was kind of like man like I'm serving here I just don't feel seen I don't feel like I'm a part of the tribe or part of the group or whatever and I would notice anytime new people would come in I'd be like man ain't nobody going to talk to him so Mike and I took it upon ourselves
because we're like I feel like an outsider you feel like an outsider these people probably feel like an outsider so let's be friends with them and I remember like no one would say a word to them and that really hurt like me because that's I don't know maybe just who I am but it would hurt me because I'm like bro ain't nobody said

(41:50):
nothing like we're supposed to be Jesus to these people and we talked again about when we went bull riding of how we met those people and they weren't even church people and they care about us and knew our name and I'm like man this is what church is supposed to be going going to that man we so we went bull riding like he said and really that
was one of the biggest secular events that I had attended for a really made an impact all these people and the other thing about assemblies of God and a lot of other religious pieces and I'm not talking about Christianity and not everybody's like this but it's very judgmental and

(42:29):
gossip centric and so the judgmental parts is it's like well so and so sleeps around or so and so you know has done drugs in the past or so and so is whatever and so we go to this rodeo and it's like oh yeah homegirls has slept with like every dude here
and it's like that dude's like got a you know kids with that lady and whatever over here and typically with Pentecostal that's like oh my gosh like this is just they're living this this hard raunchy lifestyle and I shouldn't even be around these people yet they were the nicest people that were like here let's get you gear you want to do this like yeah we'll get you like they were even

(43:08):
giving us pointers like they didn't they didn't care who we were we were Joe Schmo off the street like we were two city slickers they didn't care they were like you know what we'll show you the ropes we'll show you how to do it and they were the nicest
people and that was the whole thing was I remember Chris and I coming back and being like man those people that you know even the people in the church are like would deem like oh man I wouldn't hang out with them then raunchy people like they treated us better than the experience that we could do

(43:37):
experience that we get every single week and we're doing all this work and we're doing it like it doesn't make any sense
but and again I would kind of going on a theological topic here like they push so hard about speaking in tongues and I'm quoting this okay this is not from me I'm quoting this but a guy said he said he said I

(44:02):
people focus so much on the gifts of the spirit when they should be focusing on the fruit of the spirit right Bible says that you will know a tree by its fruits and he's like he was like y'all speak in tongues but y'all are mean in English he was like you speak in tongues but you're gossiping about people in English it's like that's not the Holy Spirit man like yeah like if you speak in tongues like cool but if you don't love people and Paul even writes that in 1st Corinthians 13 and 14 it's like if I prophesy or I speak in tongues but I don't have love I'm just making it up

(44:31):
I love I'm just making noise and that's really and truly what it was that we were living in because they focus so much on speaking tongues speaking tongues speaking tongues fall out during the whole which is if you ever seen those videos of like Benny him and like yeah right
people and they like fall out and it's like okay the Holy Spirit yes when the Holy Spirit actually because there have been times were like the whole like someone's pretty you listen listen you feel that power like you feel the power when the dude touches you to the point where it's like it is what it is like it's

(45:02):
and and that's the thing is a lot of these feelings are undeniable if you've had this happen like it's these are undeniable feelings but then you've had that and that's the biggest thing that I've always heard is if you guess it if there's any sort of second guess of like was that experience really what it was supposed to be
then then it wasn't like you know those experiences and Chris and I both have those experiences where we know but then there's some other experiences where it's like I so it at least for me personally so it's it's kind of interesting but continue I'm sorry yeah but you you go and you're like you know what like

(45:38):
I would I would rather y'all be kind and y'all love me and and and have patience and and and care about me as a person and like speaking you know what I mean and so and again kind of backtracking it and it wasn't from a place of having an identity in Christ but it was always the
spiritual highs where it's like oh yeah I'm doing really good I'm serving I'm reading my Bible I'm doing great I'm doing great my relationship with God is really good and then you mess up and then you hit these really low lows are you like oh man I feel so on fire for God right

(46:10):
at these at this youth party at this youth camp at this youth event but two weeks later now I'm burned out and it's a spiritual or not spiritual emotional roller coaster that you're on it really is it's not the way it's supposed to be and especially especially being a teenager it's like that's you already got a lot of emotional
hormonal crap going on on top of it but the biggest thing to give a prime example what Chris is talking about they there for the longest time I believe that you know the whole lambs book of life like you get your names written name written in the lambs book of life means you're in heaven right

(46:49):
I was so convinced that it's like God is sitting there with a pencil it with the eraser like your names in right now but screw up and that thing is getting erased like right now and it's one thing like it's one thing and that name is getting scratched out
and so like that's if that's how you're living us I mean us as humans we are not perfect so yeah you were going to screw up especially as a teenager like when you're trying to figure things out and not to mention like on my end Chris talking about his personal stuff as well but on my end like we were both going to

(47:22):
to public school right and so the thing is it's not just the pressure of we also had the pressure of being little evangelists going through our school and you know evangelizing and doing these other things and so it puts a lot of other pressure because a lot of the friends and the people you

(47:43):
hang out with yeah they curse yeah they fight they do all sorts of crap that you know you've been taught not to do and so the thing is and the biggest thing that you were also taught is if you engage in any of these actions well your witness is killed so you might as you
like you're going to have to so the thing is you would do one little thing at school you would you would you would slip up you would do whatever right with your friend or whatever and all of a sudden you would feel like absolute garbage you would be you would leave a youth rally and you would go through the weekend you would have a great church service on Sunday Monday would roll around you get with your friends

(48:20):
something would happen and it's just like man I slipped up I said I said hell I said whatever right like I said it was before lunchtime right it is before lunchtime and you're just like man what happened to me like I thought that I was you know because it gets you to the place with a lot of these
it makes you feel almost invincible with God you're just like oh I'm going to get into these spots and these temptations are going to just bounce off me because I went through this thing and then you get in there and you go wow that was fast okay and so now you feel like okay now I'm

(48:58):
going to heaven like literally I just I said I said a bad word with my friends and now now I'm out like God is erased the the the name out of the book and we are we're done to the point where I remember having dreams and these are very morbid dreams just f y
but of like I'm about to get killed like I'm on stage like I'm about to get executed and like I'm fine with it but like I pray to God like you would like before you're going to get whacked and just like God just like I'm about to see you in a minute I'm sorry for everything I've done

(49:30):
and so like and I would feel good like okay you go into heaven like everything is fine and then all of a sudden I'd be like oh be in my mind even in my mind and then all of a sudden it's like oh don't kill me yet don't kill me and I gotta I gotta you know because it's
pray the prayer yeah pray the prayer again and you're just so worried about that one little mess up that's like you're out you know that sort of thing and so yeah it is a roller coaster because it's constant it's constant

(49:58):
and that's not ladies and gentlemen that's not how it's supposed to be with God right the Bible says literally in Romans 8 38 that nothing can separate us from Jesus love now if you're continuing to like go down a destructive path and like yeah like okay that's a different
conversation you're like you know what screw I don't care I prayed the prayer you know like that's a different mindset but what if you were like actively trying to follow Jesus and everything like I here's the thing I wish someone had taught me how to pray as a teenager or how to read my Bible as a

(50:34):
how to legitimately deal with lust right like it was instead and they would say oh yeah well just don't do it or just pray it away and it's like do or even even in the smallest senses it like because they didn't delve into like deeper things I remember it's
just like well if you see a woman with lots of cleavage you know look up at the ceiling and count the ceiling tiles or whatever like it wasn't it was surface level stuff like yes those are problems and yes it's hard to be especially like nowadays being a married Christian guy it is hard

(51:08):
like it is hard but even back then it's like okay yoga pants start coming out and stuff like that you try to you know have all this stuff go on and so they tell you just like bounce your eyes and just like okay but really beyond that what conversations did we have about like and when they'd be like
like after women they would maybe bring up some scriptures but basically just be like but you shouldn't do that and it's going to lead you down a bad path but like how do you not do that because you're 16 and a dude right yeah I wish we would have had like a open place where you could just share

(51:46):
hey I'm sure and someone passed and like hold hold you a counter where yeah dude like it takes me like don't don't do that you're better than that and so anyways I know that was those whole so anyways back to the original question you said
so we're in the youth group we're noticing these things and the youth pastors like calls me in his office and well Micah goes with me because you know we're tag team we go everywhere so so and what he did was he was like what's going on I shared what was going on and he he took out a blank piece of paper

(52:26):
and he drew a dot on it in the middle of the paper and he said what do you see here and I said a dot and then he was like what else do you see I was like a small dot and then he was like then Michael was like the dots not all the way colored in he was like what else do you see and we were just you know
you know name or just guessing yeah we're just guessing my god and then he goes well he was like you're only focusing on the dot what you fail to see is the rest of the sheet of paper and I'm like okay like and looking back now I'm like okay I understand like his analogy like it's a it's a decent

(53:00):
analogy but the way he turned it was like like it was my fault that that I was just seeing things a different way and he wasn't really addressing the problem or the root of it and he didn't make me feel pastored for or cared for again it was that well this is your problem you need to fix it
you it's just perspective yeah and I mean naturally when you tell him like hey we're not feeling at home in our own youth group we're doing all this work we're doing all the behind the scenes stuff and we're getting treated like garbage and then it's like oh well you're not focused on you're focused on the small

(53:34):
problem you're not focused on the big picture and you're going what do you mean
like we're the ones not just the boots on the ground but we're also the ones that when these visitors come in they're the they're the only reason some of these people were the only reason some of these people come back
like you know and like it seemed like it's like okay we don't really care about that sort of thing it's like we're

(53:57):
the main clicks and we're not going to go into the who's in the house of all that but like we had expressed explicit like okay these certain people tend to be the problem right these these didn't to be the problem and essentially all he was telling us is like yeah
I acknowledge that it's a problem but the thing is you're you're not focused on the fact that like we have this bigger picture and we're supposed to be you know the love and the eyes and ears of God and yes they can operate on their own but they're really operating for the kingdom anyway so

(54:31):
all you know flows together that's pretty much kind of how how that played out yeah and so again we're gonna fast forward here in a minute but so I think and a lot of this like when you're dealing with teenagers they're already dealing with self worth and identity and it's not up to one person to fix that right
because really your your identity is found in Christ but I think I just wish I would have been like pastored or hey you're doing a good job it's always like well you're not doing enough and that was again that was kind of the needle or straw that broke the camel's back when it was like oh it's your problem you're not doing enough and this and that and so it just made me bitter it made me angry I was still showing up to serve and no one even noticing and anytime anybody did notice it was to ask me to do something else and it wasn't like

(55:18):
I mean it wasn't like a thank you and again like you're 16 right some people don't need out of boys so I became really bitter and that was around the time that I wanted to become a police officer and so I started to get into this program called the Explorer program which is for high school kids who want to become law enforcement officers and I really

(55:39):
really yearning to be in the jails and those people were like I wouldn't say my family but my family at the time like they accept to me I had like they were nice to me they were kind to me like I fit in with them
and so that's stop I didn't it's not that I stopped believing in God or Jesus or anything like that I just was like you know what I'm not going to church like I'm just not going to do it like I'm mad at I'm mad at the church like and again there are people out there that are probably mad at the church

(56:08):
the church right now like they have hangups and everything but I just want to let you know just
because people like did some messed up stuff that doesn't mean that doesn't equate it to Jesus right
and so don't let that be a hindrance and I let that be a hindrance for me I let that stop me from
going to church and church it I wouldn't say it's um like like if you don't ever go to church

(56:32):
but you ask Jesus it to be your Lord and Savior right like it's not like if you die tonight and
you haven't gone to church in a month you're going to go to hell it's not that church is supposed to
be beneficial to add to it's supposed you're supposed to worship God together because you weren't
made to do life alone and so if you think oh I don't need church right like that's kind of a

(56:53):
dangerous mindset on that front too but um because it's supposed to help you right you're
supposed to grow you're supposed to find a community and so anyways I was like you know what I'm not
going to church no more yeah and and meanwhile I think so I think the youth group kind of saw his
decision right and for the first time we kind of split roles here he went to the explore program

(57:16):
and they asked me to be a small group leader they said that we want you to and I was in high school
I was junior in high school and they said we want you to be a middle school boys small group leader
and so I said yeah absolutely because I'm not saying no at that point they asked me to do something
it's like yeah I'll do it and then especially if it's a position of leadership um because at the

(57:38):
time we didn't know just a just a little precursor to what's coming we're you know we were going to
move to Texas there here probably the next year but we didn't know that at the time so it was one
of those things of like naturally you want to move up in excel and whatever you're doing so this was
the next step and so I remember starting to to do that and so my workload got a lot more

(58:02):
and I'm gonna I'm gonna speed through that whole thing but essentially I had the same
experience that Chris had I was already upset about the the black dot on the paper analogy
you know that sort of thing I had a run in with the head guitarist of the of the band
at one point and while I was running sound and running lights I had a whole fluffle with them

(58:26):
where I was this guy was uh probably 15 years older than you so he's an adult he was a leader
but he but he treated you poorly and yeah and I was and you know it was hard because that youth
pastor just like any youth pastor is going to do is like you got to apologize he's going to

(58:46):
apologize to you he gave me some half behind apology and I gave him some half behind apology
and it was just one of those things of like I could tell that this is just forced makeup but
you know things are already beginning to start being fractured and not just that but
what ended up starting to happen was I started having other small group leaders middle school

(59:09):
small group leaders I remember several times and you gotta think this is I'm a 17 16 and then
17 year old kid um I went from you know teaching a class of 15 20 20 kids to where I would have
two people drop out on me and it's like okay now you have a small group of 60 middle school boys

(59:32):
and like you shouldn't be put in that situation like at all there should have been some sort of
buffer of like okay we need to get you at least somebody to sit in here and help and kind of
crowd control because like to keep them kids in controls all 60 of them like it wasn't happening
like and my brother was famous for getting everybody off track so he would he would he would

(59:55):
rile everybody up because there was a ton of basketball fans that were in this group and so
I'd have to be like he'd be like so LeBron LeBron's better than everybody and then he
LeBron's better than MJ and then it'd just be this whole freaking fight and it would be this thing
and so he was such an instigator uh your your brother anyways so you know went through all of that

(01:00:17):
so we suddenly um my family had a little bit of something happen my grandmother passed away
and we were gonna move out to Texas to take care of my grandfather and so Chris wanted to go to
Texas Tech and so it's like you know what might as well come out there with you and so we ended
up moving to Texas and I'm sure we'll tell that full story some other time but I'm glossing over

(01:00:40):
it so we get out to Texas and what's interesting is now we start yet another church this one is
interesting because it is called Trinity and the deal is um the ideals that we were brought up in
or at least the ones that I was brought up in is you know they'll say like Godhead 3 and 1 but

(01:01:00):
anytime you identify as Trinity um they for some reason Pentecostals, Assemblies of God, they'll be
like you believe in three gods you know you believe in Father, Son, and Holy Ghost and that's
three different people. That's three different God are not that way it's Pentecostals. It's Pentecostals.
Okay so it was already different going to a church called Trinity right because it was like okay that

(01:01:21):
was already kind of a big deal in breaking this whole thing but uh grandfather was a big part of
this church and so immediately Chris and I get involved like immediately I mean boots on the
ground I think we were like we were like meeting people like the first time and like where can
we help out like that's that's how quickly we became involved. Yeah and I'm gonna go through

(01:01:44):
this really really quick because I want to get I want to get to the part where um we've healed
from it right so I don't want to just to be like a old bashing this about like there's healing in
and there's goodness and like on the other side of it so got involved and then to be honest with
you just typical um I think I still had a lot of hurt from from past church and I was like you

(01:02:07):
know I'm not gonna go to church I started working I'm a lot of on my own I got a girlfriend like
I'm gonna do whatever I want and um like stop going to church I got involved with someone uh
uh it wasn't bad that I got involved with them but it was bad that I got involved with them um

(01:02:27):
and so I just ended up really hitting rock bottom really that's what it was um because I was just
I still believed in God and Jesus like my faith in God and Jesus didn't change it's just I just
stopped going to church and I call it like my prodigal son um era because it's really still
believed in God still believed in Jesus still believed all the things but um I just want to do

(01:02:52):
my own thing and then hit rock bottom and this is the point in life where me and Micah kind of split
so after I hit rock bottom I'm like okay God I know you're trying to get my attention and so
I go back on like this journey of okay I'm getting into the Bible I'm praying I'm going to church
and everything was pretty normal it was just when it came to like the Holy Spirit and like the

(01:03:13):
practice and all that I had to like unlearn some things and I really had to unlearn like uh my
identity of this is not workspace and I'm still working on that to be honest with you ladies and
gentlemen because sometimes I'm like oh man like I did this like is God mad at me or maybe God's
punishing me for this and I know that's really bad to say like as a pastor like that you're still

(01:03:36):
trying to figure it out but I'm just gonna be honest with you like hey man hey man you're human
we're all trying to figure it out it'll matter what stage you're in you'll be a pastor at age 90
and still be figuring some stuff out like I hope so I'd hope so because that that just means growth
if you're sitting here going nope I'm good I ain't growing and like and I don't need to learn nothing
and I'm not learning anyways go ahead yeah so I went really went on a journey of like okay like

(01:03:59):
I believe all the basic stuff right like you know that Jesus is the way to salvation and Jesus died
for my sins and I have salvation in him and all that good stuff and I believe what the bible says
but like in practicing I think where do I find like what church do I want to be a part of Baptist
Church do I want to be part of like um what was it method I think I maybe tried some Methodist

(01:04:23):
Churches do I want to know if it's non-denomination I'm like okay are you affiliated with assembly
of God like what do like what do we need where is your background right so um so I really went on
that journey of like me and God like and it was for a minute like and I was trying out different
churches like every week um but I had a lot of time to be by myself a lot of time because I was

(01:04:49):
working over nights and so like I spent a lot of time praying spent a lot of time reading spent a
lot of time listening so I had a lot of time to kind of like wrestle with my faith with God like
God what like I'm dealing with this there were pains from this there's traumas from this so um
but I'll go ahead and switch to you and kind of your little okay again I'm going to gloss over

(01:05:13):
this quickly because um do want to get to the healing part of it as well um but essentially what
happened was um I stopped going to Trinity first so Chris was going there I stopped going um just
there was a lot of things that I didn't like that were going on and I'm not going to get into all

(01:05:34):
that and so at that point I felt very discouraged of like okay and not to mention just like what
had happened at the previous church I had felt very stone walled by a lot of people in like
and a lot of it had to do with they had grown up together and so and they'd all went to a
Christian school together and everything like that and so of course you're an outsider coming in so

(01:05:55):
of course you're going to be treated like the outsider that's coming in and not to mention I didn't
go to the Christian school with them I went to public high school so I still didn't go to school
with them so it was still I'm just the guy that comes to youth right that's that's that's me
and so it was already kind of interesting I get uh I graduate or I'm getting close to graduating
from high school and my folks's only stipulation at the time was you can't not go to church we're

(01:06:22):
okay with you trying different things but you can't not go to church now the thing was it was like
you can only try things within a certain realm um I tried to go to an Islamic mosque and they didn't
let me do that so there was that but um I tried I tried a few different ones one that I do remember
very and and went multiple times was to what's called an axe 29 church and basically what they

(01:06:48):
believe is and why I was in on it is one of their beliefs is anything in moderation so drinking is
okay in moderation um you know pretty much any sort of indulgence is okay as long as you're at a
balance in moderation I thought hey that's how I believe in a lot of life it's not that these
things are bad but hey if you're you know alcohol is not inherently bad but if you're getting drunk

(01:07:11):
every night and beating your wife well there's the problem right and you can point back to the
alcohol and some people can't handle that very well and so the thing is it's about knowing yourself
knowing what that balance is and that's what this church seemingly was all about now when I got to
this church it was in Lubbock right and so it was right next to Texas Tech and really and truly what

(01:07:31):
they catered to they were like the coffee bros before like the coffee shops were like the really
really big deal and so everybody had their little fancy coffee and like the service I remember was
30 minutes in and out right which for Pentecostal assemblies of God like assemblies of God our
services were less time but 30 minutes in and out that's wild that's wild I mean Pentecostal

(01:07:56):
anything like that like hour and a half tends to be short like 90 minutes was a it was still a short
service so when you're talking about 30 it almost seemed sacrilegious it was almost like okay and so
I felt like I had swung to the other end of the pendulum I didn't want to just go to a place where
it's a check the block and that's what it felt like it felt like a yay I went to church this week

(01:08:18):
let's check the block and we really didn't have any relationships and most of these people are
college kids anyways and so you could tell the pastoral staff was not diving into them
and they were like we know that y'all are going to be gone and might not even attend you y'all
aren't going to attend every week right semester ends you're going to go home summer happens you're
going to go home like they they were fully aware like hey we don't have to fully invest in your

(01:08:42):
lives and I was like I'm out of that and so I try to a series of other churches and things like that
none of it worked out what ended up happening then was my my folks were like okay well you're
going to go to the church that we're going to and the church that they were going to at the time
was a four square church and I'm not even going to go into all that that's a whole another it's

(01:09:02):
close to Pentecostal back to the Azusa Street revival was one of those that spawned off of there
we had to learn their whole ideology and doctrine now that one you know some of these we can consider
cults I would say that was probably the closest one because they were teaching their kids this
ideology too like from a very it was very interesting and so we started going there and

(01:09:23):
this is where my final straw started really really happening it was a smaller church and of course
delve into gotta start helping not just that but my parents it being a smaller church my father in
particular he started really moving up in the ranks I think he was on the board at one point he had
keys like he was always doing something for the church and like what was kind of really not a good

(01:09:50):
sign was they just kind of let this happen they barely knew this guy and they're like here's keys
here's digging and you should never do that by the way because they did not know who this guy was
and so not just that but like he advised the pastors like hey get rid of the youth pastor and his
wife and all this other stuff and end up happening now don't give me around these pastors wife or

(01:10:14):
bonkers and did need to leave and that was a good call but still to think about that these people
had been there for years and that this guy just barely comes in and is like hey you need to get
them out and this pastor followed along with it shows how much influence in such a short amount
of time that there was which was already kind of this bad sign not just that and I'm trying to rush
through this as fast as possible not just that but they were hemorrhaging money like seriously

(01:10:38):
every month but they were they could do things to improve their finances as well and so anytime
that a church is not managing their finances very very well it's always a very hard time not just
that the congregation was not about giving there was so many things about it but the biggest part
about it I was helping and I was running the sound booth and this they had a really nice sound board

(01:11:06):
they had bought it from a local community college it was extremely nice and if you've ever run sound
a sound board in your life especially for church you understand that it is dynamic the music is
dynamic slower songs you have to change certain things about the cues you have to turn certain

(01:11:27):
people up certain people down like and it's all about here you have to hear it and know what
you're doing it's a whole process and these people believed you keep these keys they had a picture
of how the the guy initially set it up and you key it to that picture and if you change any of the
dials you are getting yelled at and so long story short I had a whole fight with the whole band

(01:11:52):
about this for weeks and everything like that and just it it was it was a these were fights for no
reason and these are also people you're watching these people on band on stage worshiping God
saying these things yet they're not paying ties and offering they're not you like you could I don't

(01:12:14):
mean to judge people's spirituality but you're looking at these people going I can tell you're
running through the motions and I don't like that either you can't just run through the motions with
this stuff like this is this is really really big and so after that I remember like I still went there
and whatnot but my folks ended up leaving there and going through a bunch of other churches as well

(01:12:40):
but after that church I was incredibly disengaged I never I never worked for another church ever
again like volunteer wise I attended but never volunteered which was also very hard because
I was against everything that I had known and so long story short when I finally moved out and got
on my own I didn't go just did not go and didn't even think about it really it was one of those

(01:13:06):
things of like yay I get Sundays as a day off now that's pretty much how that went it was like
yay I get Sundays as a day off and my beliefs changed drastically over those years before I
met got back with Chris as a friend I even went through a time where I thought maybe I was atheist
I thought that maybe that I was what is agnostic agnostic there you go where you believe that

(01:13:33):
there is a higher power but you're not sure that it's God you know that it was probably something
but you don't know I even believed in the theory at one point about when you die you know DMT
drips in your brain and basically DMT is a very every time you sleep you get a little bit of DMT
right and so a lot of people your brain's active as long as you're not like beheaded or some craziness

(01:13:57):
right your brain is active for up to 10 minutes after you pass away and so all this DMT is released
and so some people believe that you know in your dreams these things are only milliseconds worth
of time they feel like forever even your longest dreams feel like a long time but the really millisecond
blips so 10 minutes in this realm must feel like an eternity right and so I've even believed like

(01:14:20):
hey you're sitting in your own body you go through this whole entire thing that feels like eternity
but you're really like I believed in all sorts of stuff is what I'm trying to tell you and so
circle back around meet Chris again do you want to talk about the healing yeah man um
and again it's been it's been a journey but I think some of it has come with maturity some of it

(01:14:46):
has come with counseling some of it has just come with the Lord doing work in my life man and really
truly looking at people and saying you know what they're flawed too like I can't expect them to be
my savior and so my advice and what I've learned is you know what like don't let people keep you

(01:15:11):
from your relationship with God like don't let people keep you from your late because just because
people hurt you and I'm not trying to negate anybody's pain I'm not trying to negate our disc
credit but like you know the church is full of imperfect people man and so people are gonna get
hurt because we're human right like that's just nature but but let the Lord like heal you like

(01:15:34):
let that you know and and again you don't have to be best friends with people but I learned that
and like you know what like I need to have grace because the Lord has grace with me um
and so I mean I've been I've been a pastor you know um six actually on staff six years
but doing ministry for eight and like there are people you run into doing ministry and they're

(01:15:59):
not perfect either and sometimes you get into arguments sometimes they do things that are not
right and it's just part of being human but I don't let that keep me from having a relationship
with the Lord or keep me from going to church um but I really think it's because I did go through a
period of time where I was like you know what do I even need to go to church I could just sit at

(01:16:20):
home and read my Bible you know like it's not that important but then I realized you know what
it says in 1st Peter to be alert and be vigilant because the devil roams around like a like a roaring
lion seeking and you think about lions they pick off the sheep that are by themselves right and so
I was kind of like you know what like I need to be surrounded by people who are going to help me

(01:16:43):
grow and you're going to help me like encourage me I need to be around people that have been around
the block for this and so I mean I went through a whole bunch of different church like do I I still
lean on the charismatic side sometimes um but I I believe the Holy Spirit is still active I still
believe the gifts are still active I still believe that God still does miracles I still believe all

(01:17:05):
that but I think there's like an order and I think there's like structure to how that should
again this back flipping and running around the church and being chaotic that's not from God like
that's a distraction like why would because that's a distraction to the message and so um I have I
don't know I would call myself like a weird mutt of like mixiology like because I'm like

(01:17:26):
bro there are stuff that the Methodists do like I'm like oh yeah like let's go bro like they got
that on point and there's stuff is a Baptist do that I'm like yeah like they got that on point
and there's stuff that like Anglicans do like I I can appreciate the like structure and like their
love for like there's a holy reverence that they have that I feel like is missing uh from a lot

(01:17:49):
of churches right like there's things about each nomination that I'm more like you know what like
as long as we believe like the major big points like how you choose to practice whether you choose to
do um like your service is more methodical you choose to I don't know have your prayers more

(01:18:10):
methodical or like that's on you bro like if that helps you get some people that helps them get closer
to God if they have like a structured prayer like that helps them and so it's it's about your
relationship with Christ and you need other believers to do that and help you with that um
and so sorry that was a really long question our long answer to your question but anyways

(01:18:32):
what would what would you say your healing journey's been and what would be your advice to people
that are like walking through church hurt so mine is a little different than Chris and the
and reason being is because I don't know if I can necessarily say that I found my church home or my
theology home and I'm still kind of looking I mean um now the the key premise here that I'm

(01:18:54):
going to say is and the key thing is I'm looking and I'm trying like that's those are the biggest
things is a lot of times I've you know I've been to this spot too where you say oh grandma I'm
looking and I'm trying and you're actually not right and you're not actually trying these things
but the thing that's been really interesting is reading back through the Bible again as an adult

(01:19:17):
who has had these open ideas and different beliefs and are now getting to a point where
I'm kind of like Chris I'm I'm a theological theological I don't know what word I was trying
to say theological month and so what's interesting is there are times where I don't know if I

(01:19:37):
necessarily fall into a category like I can't say categorically I do agree I do agree with some of
the things that Lutherans put out there I do agree with some of the things that Methodist put out
there heck there's even things that Pentecostals do and say and I'm like hey I still believe that
those things are accurate and that this is how you should model things like there are there are

(01:19:58):
still things out there that I I still hold on to but at the same time um the biggest thing that I've
come across and the biggest problems that I'm that I'm still having is a lot of organized religion
a lot of churches put God in a box God is huge and we have such finite minds and finite thinking

(01:20:20):
the biggest thing that I come in contact with while looking for churches and organized religion
are these churches who think they have it all figured out it's one of the biggest problems
that I have with Pentecostals in particular and I I hate to call them out in particular
but and this is not all Pentecostal churches but what I've seen a lot is they put their faith in a
lot of men and not in God they put their faith in a lot of pastors and a lot of leadership

(01:20:45):
but not in God and those leadership will tell people this is what God is he's he's this box
he's in this box and this is who he is and it's very cut and dry God is not cut and dry like we
can't understand everything that is going on we it says that we I mean my thing is you will never
find out what what God truly is and the biggest part that I have to say as well is for me I believe

(01:21:13):
that the word of God being the Bible one I still believe that is the the holy book but what a lot
of people what I wish was taught more to me early on was that this was the Jewish people's historical
book on top of being our the holy book this is the history of the Jewish people like I

(01:21:35):
wasn't ever told that until I got into high school and then it's like oh yeah this is a historical
book and it really is talking about these families where they've come from the stories they've gone
through and things like that and we have these texts all over the world from all these different
peoples but this is the holy text as mandated by the God that we choose to believe in and so

(01:21:57):
and so what's interesting on that think about how broad and in depth I just talked about on top of
that I truly believe that Chris can read a scripture and I can read a scripture and even
though we are very much in common and a lot of our life experiences have a line he can read something
and I can read something and the interpretations can be totally different because the word is

(01:22:21):
dynamic and I feel like that is what's lost in a lot of churches is they don't believe that the
word is dynamic there are a lot of things that are in the word that are cut and dry don't get
wrong I was like but I was like there are things like don't that are extremely right right things
are like like ten commandments ten commandments very cut and dry like hey you know these are the

(01:22:43):
things that you don't do but there are a lot of things out there as well and I'm trying to find
good examples but there are a lot of things out there as well that are subjective that's like
okay to me that could mean this to you that means something totally different and that's just because
of the life experiences we've had some of the different things that we've done you know and

(01:23:05):
so I think for me what I've struggled to find in a church is I've struggled to find
one people that don't put all their faith and all their eggs in the pastoral basket and
don't get me wrong having a good strong pastor and having that shepherd to lead your flock is what

(01:23:25):
you need in a church but I think the the biggest problem is just like any man you can get too high
on your horse and think I'm the man of God now you know I'm the big head honcho and I feel like
that's what you come across in a lot and I've had that too much in the past with this so I'm trying
to look away from that and and not just that but the having a church and a pastor that understands

(01:23:46):
and I'm not talking about being so open that like the cut and dry stuff you know
you know that's not not killing they're sitting here like well if you look here you know you know
it's like oh it's okay to go uh divorce your wife so you can go be with another side piece like it's
kind of like uh it's like don't you know it's like don't you know king David did that no big deal

(01:24:12):
no big deal yeah it's all good um and it's like you know they'll just pass some things off or whatever
like it's what's hard for me is finding that balance and what's been the hardest thing for me is
understanding that there is not going to be a perfect church there's not I mean there's going
to be things that will tick 85 percent of your blocks and those are the things that I'm looking

(01:24:33):
for right but part of the church hurt in the healing that I've had to go through Chris will tell you
even from when we became you know got to being friends again that you know straight up I've told
him like listen I am not a part of it I'm not gonna try to be a part of it like literally I'm just
I'm out here and I'm like I'm not ready for it at all and slowly but surely I've started coming back

(01:24:56):
started looking back into the theology what do I believe ideology wise like what where where do I
stand and what does that mean for what I do every Sunday and so we're still kind of in that in that
figuring out process but I think a lot of it is you know we're kind of what Chris was saying to

(01:25:17):
regardless of what subsect of Christianity it is you believe in we all believe in 95 of it together
of hey this is what I mean I'm even gonna throw his long into the mix I know that there's a ton of
fighting and that's a controversial thing it's the same god it's following two different brothers
it's you follow one brother we follow another brother and that's that's really what ends up

(01:25:37):
happening in the storylines and the lineages and so the thing is it's like we all are really really
the same but we can get all that stuff we were talking about the nitty gritty of being in the
weeds this is the stuff that they talk they fight about and so I think my battle is not necessarily
with Christ my relationship with Christ or anything like that I think I'm still having the struggles

(01:25:59):
of the organized religion and trying to find something a better home for that but I've come a
long way and and just wanting to have a relationship with Christ and keep you know keep going is already
a a big thing because there for a while it's like man if all I'm gonna have to do if if you know
getting to heaven just means working like I'm not gonna do that you know like if it just means working

(01:26:23):
all the time and wasting my life like it's not worth that and I've grown a lot from that point
yeah man and it's and it is important to know like I mean honestly if we could just work
and just it was all on us there wouldn't be no reason for us to have Jesus come here to die on
the cross to our sins and all that it's like just pay your dues just pay your dues and like

(01:26:48):
and you'll be in the right thing they could they couldn't do it for what however many thousands
of years before Jesus came right so they couldn't they had to sacrifice animals all the time but
then Jesus came and made a way so it's like but I think it's I think it's just knowing knowing who
you are in Christ and knowing who God is made you to be and again please hear please hear my heart

(01:27:12):
church I think church is important I do I do 100% and it's important to find your community and
it's important to find other believers right that you can share in that way so even if it's
hey small groups and homes right like that's being the church is not a building like church is not
a building church's community right it says we're we're two or more gathered you know he'll be there

(01:27:34):
and so the thing is going back to one of your points that you were saying earlier now I mean
there have been times where my wife and I have had church at the house right because we're two people
we can crack open the bible and have a little church now the thing is if just like everything
there's a balance I feel like there is definitely it's not the same if you say okay I'm going to

(01:27:59):
make every week with my wife church like okay now now you're going to be missing things and I believe
that it's truly about the community aspect of it going to church one of the best parts about it
is the community aspect about it those are some of the things that I miss the absolute most and
some of the things that I haven't found in modern today churches is those without it being small

(01:28:22):
and podunk to the point where they're going to put you to work to death too to where they have
the potluck dinners with the whole with the whole church right like with the whole church things
like that or they have the community events that maybe not aren't not necessarily God focused but
like they're doing things for the community in the name of God if that makes sense and so there's

(01:28:46):
I feel like there's a lot of that missing and we've kind of gone into our internal four walls of
the church instead of getting out of the four walls of the church and doing things as well and so
we should start our own church Chris that's all I'm saying just
just kind of like my uh I kind of like my next church that I'm going to so

(01:29:12):
but uh but and again to wrap it up like Micah said there's not gonna be any perfect church
there's not it's because we're all none of us are perfect so um don't let that stop you don't
let that stop and if you have church hurt like Micah's like it's a process sometime maybe the
first step is for you is I don't know to read the Bible I don't know what your first step is but

(01:29:34):
don't feel like hey man I gotta dive back into it but as long as you're as long as it's not like okay
10 years now and we're kind of at the same point right like you always want progress you always want
healing you always want you know yeah yeah no absolutely and one other thing that I want to
say is there are so many people and I really do feel like the number one and I'm not going to say

(01:29:55):
the word excuse because it's not an excuse but the number one reason that people will give it's like
oh have you been to church you know here recently and when we used to have to evangelize and go out
and talk to people that was a question we asked a lot like how when was the last time you went to
church and a lot of people like I don't go to church well why is that and the I would say the

(01:30:15):
number one answer is well people are bad at church people have treated me bad there's been bad things
that have gone down but at the same time I will tell you to the contrary of that they're always
going to be bad people everywhere and what better place for a bad person to be than in the church
but at the same but at the same time and that's where these people are supposed to be broken

(01:30:38):
people they're all supposed to and they're all a work in progress as well I don't let that deter you
but at the same time if you're in situations to where it's like there are very toxic church
situations and I'm not saying stick through that just because you know just because of whatever
but again just like anything in life there's a balance but I think a lot of people use that

(01:30:59):
as a crutch of like well I was treated poorly so I'm just not even gonna I'm not even gonna like you
you kill the relationship with Christ completely just because of what people have done and that's
you don't need to do that like you can have the relationship with Christ without the church
but it is also going to you know benefit you to find a good church because once you do and you

(01:31:19):
do find that good community like man it is really it's really a fun thing and it's really you know
you make a lot of friends and you I mean there's there's a lot of benefits to it so yeah it's all
good well you know what else is all good our Instagram and YouTube page if you have been
listening on Spotify please check us out on YouTube at the Donalbox podcast because we have a brand

(01:31:45):
new channel you can see our faces and then trash can travel not the aviators society no more is
trash trash can travel right I know it's hard to I know it's hard to say yeah trash can travel over
on Instagram and then over on YouTube as well we've got trash can travel and pretty much identical
copies so if you see one you see the other but identical but at the same time like and subscribe

(01:32:10):
both of those if you're an avgeek like myself we've had some really good videos here lately
dude there was one posted the other day I'm gonna be really brief about it but it was pretty cool
had a downward view of like what it looks like when landing gears are retracting which by the way
if you haven't watched last week's episode where we talked about those stowaways too speak of
landing gear retracting go ahead and watch that as well those are up on YouTube as well so you

(01:32:38):
can see our beautiful faces for this hour this past week so but man that's pretty much all I have
I appreciate we appreciate all the listeners who have been listening trash can OGs Donalbox OGs
and then if this is your first time we really appreciate it as well and tell them what's going

(01:32:58):
on next Christopher it's time for the starship to take us out I'm Chris and I'm Michael and this is Ben
Donalbox OGs

(01:33:36):
I just want so much to give you this love

(01:34:06):
we

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