June 19, 2022 • 21 mins
The narcissist-borderline dynamic is common in couples counseling and underlies many super high conflict relationships. Here we cover what Borderline Personality is (extreme preoccupied attachment is one helpful lens), how it interacts with Narcissist Personality Disorder and why these two types are drawn to one another, and what to do if this episode leads to a lightbulb recognition moment about your own dynamic.
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Link:
Books:
I Hate You Don't Leave Me: https://amzn.to/3OaPKl5
Stop Walking on Eggshells by Mason Kreger
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Emotional Vampires by Albert J. Bernstein
Disarming the Narcissist by Wendy T. Behary
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Hi everybody, and welcome to thedr.
Psych mom show today, I'm going to discuss the narcissistic
borderline Dynamic and this is acommon Dynamic that people see
in couples counseling where somebody with narcissistic
traits. And someone with borderline
traits are drawn to one another frequently.
It's the man as the narcissist in the woman has the borderline
(00:27):
symptoms, but it can be invertedas well before we get to that.
Let's just as always tell y'all to subscribe, Close to 50
subscription-only episodes, they're all super good and
there's the oral sex on women. And the you don't care, there's
the oral sex on women one, anyhow.
So let's just then Dive Right In.
(00:49):
And by the way there's lots of people following me for therapy
and asking not following me for therapy.
There's people on the street that are following me.
Begging me for therapy? No, there aren't there's people
asking about therapy. I have a group practice, best
life. Behavioral Health, so best life
Behavioral, Health.com. We have clinicians mostly in the
(01:10):
DC area, but some are licensed elsewhere to.
So let me know if you need a therapist, by emailing through
that site. Anyhow, let's move into this.
So a lot of people come in, like, with real like, fucking
crazy relationships, you know? And you know, if you're in one
of these, you know, because it'sreally volatile, it's really
chaotic but you kind of don't know because that's likely what
(01:31):
you grew up with and First. Let's go to borderline traits
because this is going to give a lot of men, an aha moment about
their wives now. Borderline is is not super
common in the population at large but it's pretty common in
counseling, particularly in marital counseling you know
where else it's coming. You know who also knows a lot
about it. Divorce attorneys because these
(01:52):
are the most contentious conflictual divorces.
So borderline personality is like a very extreme version of
preoccupied. Attachment people with
borderline personality, we're sensitive children.
And raised in an invalidated andwe're even abusive home and
that's the etiology of it. And it is a personality
disorder, which means it's more pervasive.
(02:13):
It used to be thought that it couldn't be cured, but it can at
least in as much as symptoms canremit.
Not not the entirety of how somebody views the world but
symptoms can permit and in fact,during mid over time, even just
with age particularly the more impulsive ones.
So what is borderline look like?Well, I mean I just I could just
(02:34):
read you Criteria and explain kind of what they are.
So, an intense fear of Abandonment, now you should be,
you know, counting these off on your fingers about either
yourself or your husband or yourwife.
It's more commonly presents in women and men, this manifest
more is antisocial personality. There's some controversy over
(02:56):
whether the diagnostic criteria are just kind of gender biased
or not. But again, since it's more often
exemplification of extreme preoccupied attachment, I do see
more Women that I genuinely think have borderline than men,
but I definitely see men that dotoo.
So count these offer, you know do a tally mark an intense fear
(03:19):
of Abandonment going to Extreme Measures to avoid real or
imagined separation or rejection.
So it is this person freak out when they think you're about to
leave a pattern of unstable intense relationships
idealizing. Someone one moment and believing
the person doesn't care enough. The next.
So this splitting making somebody all good or all bad
somebody's on. On a pedestal and then they come
(03:40):
off the pedestal. It happens with everybody,
probably happened with you for, if you are the person who is a
partner of the person with borderline and it happens with
friends with their family Etc. Somebody's all good and then all
of a sudden, there's a break, there's strange moment, this
person is terrible, they never loved me.
They never cared about me, they're horrible.
I didn't know how horrible they were.
(04:01):
And there's a lot of burned Bridges there for rapid changes
in self identity, and self image, including shifting, goals
and values. So this person is not stable in
terms of career, possibly even religion, in terms of how they
dress, how they act like they kind of, they can almost be a
chameleon with different sorts of groups.
(04:22):
And this isn't just in terms of adolescence and young adulthood,
and then adulthood, or what haveyou?
This is kind of, you know, more frequently than that.
Such that you kind of don't really know who they are in a
way and it's always changing. And if you are the person with
the borderline, sometimes you don't necessarily know who Ooh,
you are when you deeply introspect periods of stress
related. Paranoia lasting from a few
(04:44):
minutes to a few hours. This is particularly.
If you feel rejected, then it's like, oh my God.
Everybody's out to get me. And if you hear your spouse
saying crazy stuff, like, oh, somebody must have hacked into
my account. People are watching me my how
did my friend know this or that about me or, you know, just
stuff that sounds just off the wall then you'll know what this
is impulsive and risky Behavior.We're up to five now, impulsive
(05:06):
in Risky behaviors, such as gambling, reckless driving.
Unsafe sex spending sprees binge, eating or, and also
believe me I've been doing and purging drug abuse or sabotaging
success by suddenly quitting. A good job, or ending a positive
relationship. You'll know that if you see it,
especially the impulsivity interpersonally.
So just like, yelling at somebody, you're ruining a
(05:28):
relationship or The Burning Bridges had talked about
suicidal threats or behavior or self injury often in response to
a perceived us separation. That's going to happen.
So this is often with younger people with borderline traits
that they will either really attempt to kill themselves or
say they're going to not to be manipulative in a bad way, but
(05:51):
to be manipulative in the way that they are panicked, at the
thought of a person leaving them, the loved ones, they're
literally doing anything to keepthem around wide.
Mood swings lasting from a few hours to a few days.
You know, what this is if you have it and if you see it on
doing feeling as of Dienes. So that means like you kind of
(06:11):
really do not know who you are and you feel very bored and
intolerant of being alone because you're empty inside.
Really? You feel that way?
You're not, but you feel that way.
And the last one is inappropriate intense anger,
such as frequently lost, losing your temper being sarcastic, or
bitter, or having physical fights.
Okay? So those were nine.
If you got at least five, or if your spouse does, then that
(06:34):
would meet criteria for borderline again.
I can't diagnose anybody, but I'm saying, if you were to Bring
yourself or your partner in for evaluation.
These are the criteria that would be looked at.
So now you have a sense of what borderline traits are.
And again, I can't diagnose or, you know, whatever, but, like,
just like you could look up symptoms of anything.
Most people aren't going to. So that's where I come in.
(06:56):
So anyhow, people like this. Are, you know, the quote crazy
wife in my mr. Perfect.
And it's crazy wife, they have many symptoms of borderline and
just people, Who kind of also don't really live up to their
potential at all frequently havethese symptoms?
So a guys like kind of confused because his wife's really smart
(07:17):
but she does like nothing she does really nothing.
I mean, there are people who do nothing in the world and you
see, I see a lot of them in my officer gets hold of them.
What I mean by this is? Yeah, sure like she doesn't
work. Okay.
She's a stay-at-home mom or maybe you know, she does work
but she's always losing jobs or she's has problems.
(07:39):
As with authority or if she's a stay-at-home mom, she kind of
doesn't do anything really, you know, and she just has kind of
dramatic conflicts with people. There's also a lot of
psychosomatic symptoms. So this person often achieves
way less than they would give intheir intelligence.
Now there may be other issues atplay, obviously, borderlines, a
(07:59):
personality disorder could be comorbid.
And often is with things like depression anxiety, ADHD PTSD at
cetera. Another way to think about
borderline now. That's I thought of more and
more is just basically complex trauma that lasted from
childhood that manifest in this way.
Now why are people with borderline drawn to people with
(08:19):
narcissistic personality? You can read about that on my
site but people kind of know more about narcissism.
So basically when you think you're better than everybody
either covertly or overtly and your kind of arrogant so like
you know you got you got no skinin the game of lying to yourself
if you know that this is you Andit's funny because there was a
(08:40):
study that showed that the a large narcissism, like, scale
was as good as literally asking somebody.
Do you think your narcissistic because most people's narcissism
will be like yeah, you know whatI really do and it's funny
because whenever I tell anybody in therapy that they have
narcissistic traits you could tell if it's right or not.
(09:01):
I mean you know I know them a long time.
So it's usually not like wrong but when I try to bring it in
they'll always be like really you know, because I heard that.
And do you like delighted almostlike there's special?
They love being special. Now, they even have a diagnosis
and they really thought about itall along that they are, you
know, especially overt narcissists, the covert or more
(09:21):
victim type of narcissists, are different.
They'll be like, no, I'm not. But males especially will
usually be like yeah, you know what, you could be right.
Like I've heard that a lot. My wife always certainly says,
I'm self-centered. So and they're very high
achieving and they've heard thatthey're like a bulldog at the
Boardroom or whatever, and they kind of Pride themselves on
(09:41):
being like an arrogant asshole. So guess what?
Like, you know, if if it quacks,it's a duck.
So anyhow, the reason that border lines are drawn to
narcissists is that they don't have this internal sense of self
or the strong core of self-esteem.
So, they're drawn to these more arrogant flagrantly, quote
confident, but really arrogant people because other people
(10:04):
would find the narcissist to be unappealing.
Like they're so into themselves as so-called Barney almost like
it's like cliche but a borderline is like, wow, that
person knows who they are. Holy shit.
If I liked myself to that personand this is all subconscious and
unarticulated. Then I too will have some sort
of an identity. I'll basically ride on their
(10:25):
identity in a way because I don't feel very confident and
secure. I don't really know who I am,
but this person really does and then if we create a couple and a
family, then I can kind of ride on on on their deep.
Self-knowledge. At least they're so great and
then I won't have to think abouthow I don't really know who I
am. Now also people with borderline
(10:48):
do that idealization devaluationthing and who's going to believe
that shit a narcissist, right? A narcissist doesn't even get a
question it. Oh, this woman thinks, I'm
amazing. She just met me and she wants to
get into a relationship. With me were having sex six
times a day. Wow, this will last forever.
Finally, somebody realizes trulyhow amazing I am.
(11:09):
And then, you know, six months, 18 months later the woman's
done. And she's, you know, she, as he
has fallen off the pedestal, she's beginning to devalue him,
seeing him as the enemy. But he always keeps on trying to
get back to that early phase, which she was acting like, he
was God and more securely attached.
(11:30):
Non narcissistic, man, will be like, whoa, like what the fuck's
happening? Sex?
Six times a day. All right, that's nice.
Like, this is nice for Little while.
But this seems insane. Why she talking about a future
with me already. Like, why is she drinking all
the time? And why does she have?
I should crying all the time. And what's happening with the
friend groups? And what's the why she cut off
(11:52):
from her family? You know, they're going to
interrogate some of these more dramatic history on a treat,
whereas a narcissist just going to be like, wow, look somebody
thinks I've totally amazing lotsof shape their whole life around
me neat, you know. So that's how they end up
together and then when they're fighting, Which set, of course,
these get into very contentious battles.
They are both very dramatic. They both are very
(12:15):
attention-seeking in a sense, and so the fights get insane.
A nuclear, which is cool, I guess for them before kids.
But after kids, these are the houses that people grow up in
and have lasting Trauma from. And in fact, their own
personality issues including borderline because the houses
are so chaotic and conflictual. So if you recognize yourself and
(12:38):
your partner, Her in this description.
What do you really do about it? You got to get yourself into
counseling. I mean, like, you know,
sometimes I feel like people think, oh, well, I'm just gonna,
you know, tell you Silver Bulletway to save and transform this
decades-long Dynamic that started like basically, when my
wife and I were both born in ourindividual homes, you know and
(13:00):
shape through our individual, family of origin experiences and
Trauma. And then like you know I'm just
going to tell you like here's your five point plan.
To like not be in this Dynamic. I don't have a five-point plan
or a 1 million point plan to notbe in this Dynamic, you need to
do some deep work where you try to see if this Dynamic can be
shifted, including individual work for each person.
(13:22):
The Narcissist needs to stop kind of needs to get his head
out of his ass, really, and start to build some empathy.
And the person with borderline needs to basically create.
Sometimes a secure personality from scratch because you don't
feel like she has one and how can this happen?
Best is with deep introspective,Insight oriented work and which
(13:45):
we do go back to early experiences and see how they set
us on the path that they're in. Now while also building empathy
perspective, taking and especially for the borderline
building up ways to self-regulate.
That's why DBT is so helpful forpeople with borderline, that's
dialectical behavior therapy waspioneered by Marsha Linehan.
(14:06):
Who in later years it came out actually was Yourself for
borderline personality as a teenand she then came up later on
with DB T which is not anything new.
It was a combination of basically CBT Buddhist Zen,
mindfulness techniques, basic distress, tolerance techniques
from behavioral training, a whole amalgam of things that she
(14:27):
marketed and as DBT and and really a DBT framework can be
for Border Lines of all Stripes.So low functioning too high
functioning. So a low No functioning
borderline person is going to bein a hospital for repeated
suicide attempts, high-functioning ones man, I see
at the highest levels of business education everywhere,
(14:48):
you know they're CEOs their professors there everybody.
So you could be very high functioning but your internal
world is a complete mess from unresolved childhood trauma.
So there's nothing to be ashamedof you know and people can work
on both narcissism and borderline and they frequently
do. And as long as both people,
(15:08):
Committed to the relationship orreally to even their own work as
individuals. This can be very useful and
frequently. Of course what motivates people
most their kids not continuing the cycle of crazy.
Dramatic marital conflict that they saw growing up and now
appear to be replicating. Now the mr.
Perfect. And his crazy wife.
Dynamic can also give you a verygood insight into how this
(15:31):
manifests that's one of my bonusepisodes can give you a really
good insight into how this manifests in terms of certain
interactions the worst thing, NGfor a borderline is to feel
invalidated. So you know think then about
your style if you're the partner, if you're the one who
keeps saying calm down calm down.
It's fine. What do you acted so crazy for?
(15:51):
That's like the worst thing you could do and also lying even if
you of course are going to be lying.
No shit. You're gonna be lying at times
because every single thing seemsto activate this person, they're
going to say what's wrong, you're gonna say nothing because
you're terrified, you know, Ed But they pick up on any sort of
dishonesty because that's a formof invalidation.
(16:13):
So couples counseling works on being more, genuine authentic
and empathic for the narcissist which is very difficult.
And for the person with borderline to be more to really
grow their own self esteem. So sometimes you know, they are
very, very high achieving and work as the only area that they
feel good at many times, they don't really have an identity
because every time they start a job or even a volunteer position
(16:37):
there, they get very triggered. And somebody says something mean
to them, they're super high rejection, sensitivity, and
borderline personality. And they leave, you know, they
throw up their hands and leave. And so, when enough of these
happened, they really lose theirthere.
Any self-esteem that they had because should they can't make
anything work, really. And this also happens with
(16:59):
relationships with children. So you a kid only needs a few
insane freak outs by a parent before they become very scared
and avoidant. And That angry depending on
their own innate style. So frequently parenting also
feels like it's going to shit, you know?
And so this person feels just like things are getting worse
and worse and worse and then if you throw in perimenopause you
(17:22):
know which starts in the 40s andso and then you get real mood
swings based on hormones. This can be a very volatile
situation. Also pmdd all of these things
are worse when it's against a backdrop of Personality level
issues like no shit, obviously. So if this resonates with you,
this is something to think aboutsome books that you can read
(17:44):
our, stop walking on eggshells, that's a good one.
I hate you don't leave me. I'll just link you to my reading
list and then you can go into the borderline section and also
on the narcissistic side, you know, you individual therapy,
people say does it, work are narcissistic some kind of
monsters. What the hell do?
(18:04):
These people never work with high-achieving people.
All y'all have narcissist. Symptoms mostly you know.
So of course it does. Like this is some crazy pop
psych shit. Is that narcissists are
monsters. It can't work out stuff, we're
working on making people less self-absorbed.
Wow that's therapy in general having a wider world view.
So of course, it's going to be very helpful for those with
(18:25):
narcissism who can definitely change.
So it's funny to like a lot of the there's a lot of overlap
between narcissism and sex, addiction addiction of all
Stripes, really. And And yet people say that
addicts can be helped, there's so much overlap between
narcissism and particularly sex addiction, from what I see in my
(18:46):
practice. So how could it be that
narcissist? Can't change, of course, they
can change. So, don't let any of those memes
and stuff about narc abuse. Like, make you think that a
narcissist can't change. Of course, they could change.
They change daily incrementally in my practice.
You know, somebody doesn't have to be diagnosed with narcissism
for them to be working on narcissism you know, like the
(19:07):
majority of People that come in,that are avoidant, attachment
are working on a bit of narcissism quite honestly.
So also the other way to think about this narcissus borderline
Dynamic is extreme version of preoccupied avoided or pursuer
distance sir. So and those you're more
comfortable with but when she goes really derailed, then it is
this, right? An amplified version of one of
(19:29):
those. So I hope that this was useful
to you and it can be an extremely validating honestly
for somebody who thinks that their partner.
Has been acting dispatching, crazy and or they must be
driving their partner. Batshit crazy to think oh my
partner actually suffering from symptoms of borderline
personality probably and more maybe and I'll do some more
(19:52):
reading and some more thinking and encourage them to be in
treatment because that is its own constellation of symptoms
that I may be exacerbating but Ididn't create them.
And so of course that can be very validating the on the other
end to to Understand more about as the borderline that you were
drawn to somebody narcissistic for various adaptive reasons at
(20:15):
the time that I explained. But now they are just making
everything worse by being so invalidating so arrogant.
So their their confidence and stuff is making you feel even
worse about your lack their inability to empathize.
It's really the worst possible thing for you in many regards
Etc. So of course it's a million more
(20:35):
things you could read and think about these topics.
And I will if there is sufficient Interest on specific
issues within this Dynamic. But for now, I will go and I
will link you in my description to all of the various reading
that you could do. Because I know there's going to
be at least a few probably, a few dozen of you listening.
There could be like whoa. That's like exactly myself /, my
(20:56):
partner and that could be very transformative to know that.
What exactly is the problem? This is in and of itself can be
very healing can set you on the path to finally know what you're
dealing with which is The best sort of thing when you feel
struggling and like, wow, I'm incrazy town and I don't know
which way out. All right, I'll talk to
everybody soon. I hope that you got a lot out of
(21:19):
this and that you subscribe. Bye bye.
Hi everybody, and welcome to thedr.
Psych mom show today, I'm going to discuss the narcissistic
borderline Dynamic and this is acommon Dynamic that people see
in couples counseling where somebody with narcissistic
traits. And someone with borderline
traits are drawn to one another frequently.
It's the man as the narcissist in the woman has the borderline
(00:27):
symptoms, but it can be invertedas well before we get to that.
Let's just as always tell y'all to subscribe, Close to 50
subscription-only episodes, they're all super good and
there's the oral sex on women. And the you don't care, there's
the oral sex on women one, anyhow.
So let's just then Dive Right In.
(00:49):
And by the way there's lots of people following me for therapy
and asking not following me for therapy.
There's people on the street that are following me.
Begging me for therapy? No, there aren't there's people
asking about therapy. I have a group practice, best
life. Behavioral Health, so best life
Behavioral, Health.com. We have clinicians mostly in the
(01:10):
DC area, but some are licensed elsewhere to.
So let me know if you need a therapist, by emailing through
that site. Anyhow, let's move into this.
So a lot of people come in, like, with real like, fucking
crazy relationships, you know? And you know, if you're in one
of these, you know, because it'sreally volatile, it's really
chaotic but you kind of don't know because that's likely what
(01:31):
you grew up with and First. Let's go to borderline traits
because this is going to give a lot of men, an aha moment about
their wives now. Borderline is is not super
common in the population at large but it's pretty common in
counseling, particularly in marital counseling you know
where else it's coming. You know who also knows a lot
about it. Divorce attorneys because these
(01:52):
are the most contentious conflictual divorces.
So borderline personality is like a very extreme version of
preoccupied. Attachment people with
borderline personality, we're sensitive children.
And raised in an invalidated andwe're even abusive home and
that's the etiology of it. And it is a personality
disorder, which means it's more pervasive.
(02:13):
It used to be thought that it couldn't be cured, but it can at
least in as much as symptoms canremit.
Not not the entirety of how somebody views the world but
symptoms can permit and in fact,during mid over time, even just
with age particularly the more impulsive ones.
So what is borderline look like?Well, I mean I just I could just
(02:34):
read you Criteria and explain kind of what they are.
So, an intense fear of Abandonment, now you should be,
you know, counting these off on your fingers about either
yourself or your husband or yourwife.
It's more commonly presents in women and men, this manifest
more is antisocial personality. There's some controversy over
(02:56):
whether the diagnostic criteria are just kind of gender biased
or not. But again, since it's more often
exemplification of extreme preoccupied attachment, I do see
more Women that I genuinely think have borderline than men,
but I definitely see men that dotoo.
So count these offer, you know do a tally mark an intense fear
(03:19):
of Abandonment going to Extreme Measures to avoid real or
imagined separation or rejection.
So it is this person freak out when they think you're about to
leave a pattern of unstable intense relationships
idealizing. Someone one moment and believing
the person doesn't care enough. The next.
So this splitting making somebody all good or all bad
somebody's on. On a pedestal and then they come
(03:40):
off the pedestal. It happens with everybody,
probably happened with you for, if you are the person who is a
partner of the person with borderline and it happens with
friends with their family Etc. Somebody's all good and then all
of a sudden, there's a break, there's strange moment, this
person is terrible, they never loved me.
They never cared about me, they're horrible.
I didn't know how horrible they were.
(04:01):
And there's a lot of burned Bridges there for rapid changes
in self identity, and self image, including shifting, goals
and values. So this person is not stable in
terms of career, possibly even religion, in terms of how they
dress, how they act like they kind of, they can almost be a
chameleon with different sorts of groups.
(04:22):
And this isn't just in terms of adolescence and young adulthood,
and then adulthood, or what haveyou?
This is kind of, you know, more frequently than that.
Such that you kind of don't really know who they are in a
way and it's always changing. And if you are the person with
the borderline, sometimes you don't necessarily know who Ooh,
you are when you deeply introspect periods of stress
related. Paranoia lasting from a few
(04:44):
minutes to a few hours. This is particularly.
If you feel rejected, then it's like, oh my God.
Everybody's out to get me. And if you hear your spouse
saying crazy stuff, like, oh, somebody must have hacked into
my account. People are watching me my how
did my friend know this or that about me or, you know, just
stuff that sounds just off the wall then you'll know what this
is impulsive and risky Behavior.We're up to five now, impulsive
(05:06):
in Risky behaviors, such as gambling, reckless driving.
Unsafe sex spending sprees binge, eating or, and also
believe me I've been doing and purging drug abuse or sabotaging
success by suddenly quitting. A good job, or ending a positive
relationship. You'll know that if you see it,
especially the impulsivity interpersonally.
So just like, yelling at somebody, you're ruining a
(05:28):
relationship or The Burning Bridges had talked about
suicidal threats or behavior or self injury often in response to
a perceived us separation. That's going to happen.
So this is often with younger people with borderline traits
that they will either really attempt to kill themselves or
say they're going to not to be manipulative in a bad way, but
(05:51):
to be manipulative in the way that they are panicked, at the
thought of a person leaving them, the loved ones, they're
literally doing anything to keepthem around wide.
Mood swings lasting from a few hours to a few days.
You know, what this is if you have it and if you see it on
doing feeling as of Dienes. So that means like you kind of
(06:11):
really do not know who you are and you feel very bored and
intolerant of being alone because you're empty inside.
Really? You feel that way?
You're not, but you feel that way.
And the last one is inappropriate intense anger,
such as frequently lost, losing your temper being sarcastic, or
bitter, or having physical fights.
Okay? So those were nine.
If you got at least five, or if your spouse does, then that
(06:34):
would meet criteria for borderline again.
I can't diagnose anybody, but I'm saying, if you were to Bring
yourself or your partner in for evaluation.
These are the criteria that would be looked at.
So now you have a sense of what borderline traits are.
And again, I can't diagnose or, you know, whatever, but, like,
just like you could look up symptoms of anything.
Most people aren't going to. So that's where I come in.
(06:56):
So anyhow, people like this. Are, you know, the quote crazy
wife in my mr. Perfect.
And it's crazy wife, they have many symptoms of borderline and
just people, Who kind of also don't really live up to their
potential at all frequently havethese symptoms?
So a guys like kind of confused because his wife's really smart
(07:17):
but she does like nothing she does really nothing.
I mean, there are people who do nothing in the world and you
see, I see a lot of them in my officer gets hold of them.
What I mean by this is? Yeah, sure like she doesn't
work. Okay.
She's a stay-at-home mom or maybe you know, she does work
but she's always losing jobs or she's has problems.
(07:39):
As with authority or if she's a stay-at-home mom, she kind of
doesn't do anything really, you know, and she just has kind of
dramatic conflicts with people. There's also a lot of
psychosomatic symptoms. So this person often achieves
way less than they would give intheir intelligence.
Now there may be other issues atplay, obviously, borderlines, a
(07:59):
personality disorder could be comorbid.
And often is with things like depression anxiety, ADHD PTSD at
cetera. Another way to think about
borderline now. That's I thought of more and
more is just basically complex trauma that lasted from
childhood that manifest in this way.
Now why are people with borderline drawn to people with
(08:19):
narcissistic personality? You can read about that on my
site but people kind of know more about narcissism.
So basically when you think you're better than everybody
either covertly or overtly and your kind of arrogant so like
you know you got you got no skinin the game of lying to yourself
if you know that this is you Andit's funny because there was a
(08:40):
study that showed that the a large narcissism, like, scale
was as good as literally asking somebody.
Do you think your narcissistic because most people's narcissism
will be like yeah, you know whatI really do and it's funny
because whenever I tell anybody in therapy that they have
narcissistic traits you could tell if it's right or not.
(09:01):
I mean you know I know them a long time.
So it's usually not like wrong but when I try to bring it in
they'll always be like really you know, because I heard that.
And do you like delighted almostlike there's special?
They love being special. Now, they even have a diagnosis
and they really thought about itall along that they are, you
know, especially overt narcissists, the covert or more
(09:21):
victim type of narcissists, are different.
They'll be like, no, I'm not. But males especially will
usually be like yeah, you know what, you could be right.
Like I've heard that a lot. My wife always certainly says,
I'm self-centered. So and they're very high
achieving and they've heard thatthey're like a bulldog at the
Boardroom or whatever, and they kind of Pride themselves on
(09:41):
being like an arrogant asshole. So guess what?
Like, you know, if if it quacks,it's a duck.
So anyhow, the reason that border lines are drawn to
narcissists is that they don't have this internal sense of self
or the strong core of self-esteem.
So, they're drawn to these more arrogant flagrantly, quote
confident, but really arrogant people because other people
(10:04):
would find the narcissist to be unappealing.
Like they're so into themselves as so-called Barney almost like
it's like cliche but a borderline is like, wow, that
person knows who they are. Holy shit.
If I liked myself to that personand this is all subconscious and
unarticulated. Then I too will have some sort
of an identity. I'll basically ride on their
(10:25):
identity in a way because I don't feel very confident and
secure. I don't really know who I am,
but this person really does and then if we create a couple and a
family, then I can kind of ride on on on their deep.
Self-knowledge. At least they're so great and
then I won't have to think abouthow I don't really know who I
am. Now also people with borderline
(10:48):
do that idealization devaluationthing and who's going to believe
that shit a narcissist, right? A narcissist doesn't even get a
question it. Oh, this woman thinks, I'm
amazing. She just met me and she wants to
get into a relationship. With me were having sex six
times a day. Wow, this will last forever.
Finally, somebody realizes trulyhow amazing I am.
(11:09):
And then, you know, six months, 18 months later the woman's
done. And she's, you know, she, as he
has fallen off the pedestal, she's beginning to devalue him,
seeing him as the enemy. But he always keeps on trying to
get back to that early phase, which she was acting like, he
was God and more securely attached.
(11:30):
Non narcissistic, man, will be like, whoa, like what the fuck's
happening? Sex?
Six times a day. All right, that's nice.
Like, this is nice for Little while.
But this seems insane. Why she talking about a future
with me already. Like, why is she drinking all
the time? And why does she have?
I should crying all the time. And what's happening with the
friend groups? And what's the why she cut off
(11:52):
from her family? You know, they're going to
interrogate some of these more dramatic history on a treat,
whereas a narcissist just going to be like, wow, look somebody
thinks I've totally amazing lotsof shape their whole life around
me neat, you know. So that's how they end up
together and then when they're fighting, Which set, of course,
these get into very contentious battles.
They are both very dramatic. They both are very
(12:15):
attention-seeking in a sense, and so the fights get insane.
A nuclear, which is cool, I guess for them before kids.
But after kids, these are the houses that people grow up in
and have lasting Trauma from. And in fact, their own
personality issues including borderline because the houses
are so chaotic and conflictual. So if you recognize yourself and
(12:38):
your partner, Her in this description.
What do you really do about it? You got to get yourself into
counseling. I mean, like, you know,
sometimes I feel like people think, oh, well, I'm just gonna,
you know, tell you Silver Bulletway to save and transform this
decades-long Dynamic that started like basically, when my
wife and I were both born in ourindividual homes, you know and
(13:00):
shape through our individual, family of origin experiences and
Trauma. And then like you know I'm just
going to tell you like here's your five point plan.
To like not be in this Dynamic. I don't have a five-point plan
or a 1 million point plan to notbe in this Dynamic, you need to
do some deep work where you try to see if this Dynamic can be
shifted, including individual work for each person.
(13:22):
The Narcissist needs to stop kind of needs to get his head
out of his ass, really, and start to build some empathy.
And the person with borderline needs to basically create.
Sometimes a secure personality from scratch because you don't
feel like she has one and how can this happen?
Best is with deep introspective,Insight oriented work and which
(13:45):
we do go back to early experiences and see how they set
us on the path that they're in. Now while also building empathy
perspective, taking and especially for the borderline
building up ways to self-regulate.
That's why DBT is so helpful forpeople with borderline, that's
dialectical behavior therapy waspioneered by Marsha Linehan.
(14:06):
Who in later years it came out actually was Yourself for
borderline personality as a teenand she then came up later on
with DB T which is not anything new.
It was a combination of basically CBT Buddhist Zen,
mindfulness techniques, basic distress, tolerance techniques
from behavioral training, a whole amalgam of things that she
(14:27):
marketed and as DBT and and really a DBT framework can be
for Border Lines of all Stripes.So low functioning too high
functioning. So a low No functioning
borderline person is going to bein a hospital for repeated
suicide attempts, high-functioning ones man, I see
at the highest levels of business education everywhere,
(14:48):
you know they're CEOs their professors there everybody.
So you could be very high functioning but your internal
world is a complete mess from unresolved childhood trauma.
So there's nothing to be ashamedof you know and people can work
on both narcissism and borderline and they frequently
do. And as long as both people,
(15:08):
Committed to the relationship orreally to even their own work as
individuals. This can be very useful and
frequently. Of course what motivates people
most their kids not continuing the cycle of crazy.
Dramatic marital conflict that they saw growing up and now
appear to be replicating. Now the mr.
Perfect. And his crazy wife.
Dynamic can also give you a verygood insight into how this
(15:31):
manifests that's one of my bonusepisodes can give you a really
good insight into how this manifests in terms of certain
interactions the worst thing, NGfor a borderline is to feel
invalidated. So you know think then about
your style if you're the partner, if you're the one who
keeps saying calm down calm down.
It's fine. What do you acted so crazy for?
(15:51):
That's like the worst thing you could do and also lying even if
you of course are going to be lying.
No shit. You're gonna be lying at times
because every single thing seemsto activate this person, they're
going to say what's wrong, you're gonna say nothing because
you're terrified, you know, Ed But they pick up on any sort of
dishonesty because that's a formof invalidation.
(16:13):
So couples counseling works on being more, genuine authentic
and empathic for the narcissist which is very difficult.
And for the person with borderline to be more to really
grow their own self esteem. So sometimes you know, they are
very, very high achieving and work as the only area that they
feel good at many times, they don't really have an identity
because every time they start a job or even a volunteer position
(16:37):
there, they get very triggered. And somebody says something mean
to them, they're super high rejection, sensitivity, and
borderline personality. And they leave, you know, they
throw up their hands and leave. And so, when enough of these
happened, they really lose theirthere.
Any self-esteem that they had because should they can't make
anything work, really. And this also happens with
(16:59):
relationships with children. So you a kid only needs a few
insane freak outs by a parent before they become very scared
and avoidant. And That angry depending on
their own innate style. So frequently parenting also
feels like it's going to shit, you know?
And so this person feels just like things are getting worse
and worse and worse and then if you throw in perimenopause you
(17:22):
know which starts in the 40s andso and then you get real mood
swings based on hormones. This can be a very volatile
situation. Also pmdd all of these things
are worse when it's against a backdrop of Personality level
issues like no shit, obviously. So if this resonates with you,
this is something to think aboutsome books that you can read
(17:44):
our, stop walking on eggshells, that's a good one.
I hate you don't leave me. I'll just link you to my reading
list and then you can go into the borderline section and also
on the narcissistic side, you know, you individual therapy,
people say does it, work are narcissistic some kind of
monsters. What the hell do?
(18:04):
These people never work with high-achieving people.
All y'all have narcissist. Symptoms mostly you know.
So of course it does. Like this is some crazy pop
psych shit. Is that narcissists are
monsters. It can't work out stuff, we're
working on making people less self-absorbed.
Wow that's therapy in general having a wider world view.
So of course, it's going to be very helpful for those with
(18:25):
narcissism who can definitely change.
So it's funny to like a lot of the there's a lot of overlap
between narcissism and sex, addiction addiction of all
Stripes, really. And And yet people say that
addicts can be helped, there's so much overlap between
narcissism and particularly sex addiction, from what I see in my
(18:46):
practice. So how could it be that
narcissist? Can't change, of course, they
can change. So, don't let any of those memes
and stuff about narc abuse. Like, make you think that a
narcissist can't change. Of course, they could change.
They change daily incrementally in my practice.
You know, somebody doesn't have to be diagnosed with narcissism
for them to be working on narcissism you know, like the
(19:07):
majority of People that come in,that are avoidant, attachment
are working on a bit of narcissism quite honestly.
So also the other way to think about this narcissus borderline
Dynamic is extreme version of preoccupied avoided or pursuer
distance sir. So and those you're more
comfortable with but when she goes really derailed, then it is
this, right? An amplified version of one of
(19:29):
those. So I hope that this was useful
to you and it can be an extremely validating honestly
for somebody who thinks that their partner.
Has been acting dispatching, crazy and or they must be
driving their partner. Batshit crazy to think oh my
partner actually suffering from symptoms of borderline
personality probably and more maybe and I'll do some more
(19:52):
reading and some more thinking and encourage them to be in
treatment because that is its own constellation of symptoms
that I may be exacerbating but Ididn't create them.
And so of course that can be very validating the on the other
end to to Understand more about as the borderline that you were
drawn to somebody narcissistic for various adaptive reasons at
(20:15):
the time that I explained. But now they are just making
everything worse by being so invalidating so arrogant.
So their their confidence and stuff is making you feel even
worse about your lack their inability to empathize.
It's really the worst possible thing for you in many regards
Etc. So of course it's a million more
(20:35):
things you could read and think about these topics.
And I will if there is sufficient Interest on specific
issues within this Dynamic. But for now, I will go and I
will link you in my description to all of the various reading
that you could do. Because I know there's going to
be at least a few probably, a few dozen of you listening.
There could be like whoa. That's like exactly myself /, my
(20:56):
partner and that could be very transformative to know that.
What exactly is the problem? This is in and of itself can be
very healing can set you on the path to finally know what you're
dealing with which is The best sort of thing when you feel
struggling and like, wow, I'm incrazy town and I don't know
which way out. All right, I'll talk to
everybody soon. I hope that you got a lot out of
(21:19):
this and that you subscribe. Bye bye.
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