December 14, 2023 • 40 mins
In this episode of the Drinks.com Podcast, Brandon Amoroso sits down with Joe Fisch, the CEO of Wine Access, a premier platform for expertly curated wines. Joe shares his journey from working in retail and consumer-focused roles, including Ghirardelli Chocolate Company and TWC, to his passion for e-commerce, retail, and wine, leading him to Wine Access.
Wine Access, a direct-to-consumer e-commerce platform renowned for sourcing the world's finest wines, offers not only exceptional wines but also rich narratives that reveal the stories behind each bottle. Joe emphasizes the essence of delivering a high-quality product, as wine transcends categories by connecting people through shared moments and cherished memories.
Brandon and Joe delve into various facets of the wine industry and customer preferences. They discuss Joe's surprises when transitioning into the wine industry, the importance of building relationships within the wine sector, and the gradual adoption of digital tools in the wine business.
Trust and relationships with vintners play a pivotal role when representing premium wine brands on platforms like Wine Access, as Joe underlines. He also sheds light on the slower pace of digital adoption within the wine industry compared to other sectors, emphasizing the need for modern e-commerce practices.
The discussion also touches on wine trends, including the popularity of grower Champagne, affordable white wines, and high-end Bordeaux. Joe explains Wine Access's approach to serving customers with varying wine expertise and introduces strategies for introducing customers to higher-priced wines.
They wrap up the conversation with insights into customer budgeting for wine, including the potential for customers to explore more expensive bottles and different wine regions and varieties.
Tune in to this episode for a deep dive into the world of wine, personalization in e-commerce, navigating regulatory challenges, and unforgettable wine experiences.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey everyone, thank you for listening to
thedrinkscom podcast.
I'm Brandon Amoroso, your host,and today I'm talking with Joe
Fish, CEO at Wine Access, asource for expertly curated wine
(00:21):
.
Thank you for coming on theshow, Joe.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
No, Brandon, thanks for having me and happy to be
here.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
So before we dive into some of the topics we want
to cover today, can you giveeverybody just a quick
background and intro on yourselfand how you got to this point?
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Yeah, with all of you .
So been at Wine Access now forabout six years or so.
So I originally came in as theVP of finance back in 2017, and
then 18 ended up moving in aconcurrent role as CEO.
But prior to that I'd had anumber of different roles,
mostly in the retail andconsumer space.
(00:57):
So prior to that I was at theGhirardelli Chocolate Company,
which was awesome experience wasthere for about two and a half
years and I've always said thatif I can't eat or drink the
product that we're selling, thenI won't be able to understand
it.
So if I had to do cybersecuritySaaS business, I'd be in so
much trouble.
But before that I was at PWCfor about seven years.
(01:21):
I worked both in our dealspractice so mostly doing buy
side and sell side due diligencefor private equity Again in the
retail consumer space and thenwas in audit for about three
years and that's actually whereI really got my first love of
wine.
So my two biggest clients atthe time were Kendall Jackson
and Foster's wine estate.
(01:41):
So what is now Treasury In myhead?
I still always call themFoster's, and this was back in
around 2007, 2008, and fresh outof school, it was great because
I got to go work on these twoclients that are making
absolutely amazing wines,spending my summers up in wine
country, which was a lotdifferent than the year before,
(02:03):
when I was drinking Mickey's 40sin a college dorm.
I remember at Treasury gettingto go into the employee store
and was able to pick up abarrage or private reserve O3,
for really great prices.
And I popped open that firstbottle when I got home with some
of my roommates and were likeholy cow, this is amazing.
(02:26):
I was like this is alsoterrible because I think I'm
going to develop a reallyexpensive habit.
So ever since that time I waslike how do I get back in?
I should say I would reallylike to be in wine.
So that's always been one ofthese things in the back of my
head of like okay, eventuallyI'm going to move into wine.
(02:47):
So spend some time in audit andthen move into our deals
practice, so doing a lot ofconsulting.
So you're flying all over theUS and you're not paid well, but
at least you're kind of eatingand drinking pretty well.
So that again developed the lovefor food and wine, which was
such like a big, at least from afood standpoint, was very big
in my family.
(03:07):
So continue on throughout mycareer.
The Ghirardelli comes up andthen, finally, the opportunity
for Wine Access.
Wine Access comes up and I'mlike, oh, this is going to be
perfect because, well, I thoughtthat potentially working in a
winery could be interesting.
I wanted to be able to dosomething that was a little bit
more broad-based, working acrossmultiple brands and also being
(03:30):
able to kind of use some of mybackground that I had in
e-commerce and retail andconsumer.
So when the job for Wine Accesscame up, I remember my
predecessor was looking forsomeone who knew e-commerce.
So that's got like a super widefunnel and it's like they also
have to run the finance group.
Same thing.
The funnel doesn't get thatmuch more narrow and they also
(03:53):
have to have experience in wineand finance in wine.
So there's probably like fiveof us.
So my buddy ended up getting aninterview.
He's like you know what I'mgoing to pass, but you should
talk to Joe.
And then that's how I ended upat Wine Access and have been
here since.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
That's awesome.
And for those listening, whatexactly is Wine Access?
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Yeah, so we are a direct-to-consumer e-commerce
platform, so 99% of what we dois direct-to-consumer finding
what we think are the best winesin the world, pound for pound.
So I have a great team master'son the team, foremost sake,
expert advanced song who havededicated their lives to going
out and finding the best bottlesin the world, in which we
(04:39):
always put together with a 500to a thousand word narrative
when we put that wine in frontof customers.
So we really want customers toget the best wine but, just as
importantly, know who are thepeople, what's the place behind
it, why is this relevant to you?
And that's what we reallyshowcase to do always ensuring
(04:59):
kind of perfect provenance ofthe way that we taste it in the
Chateau is the same way ittastes when it gets to your
doorstep, and then all backed byphenomenal customer service.
So really kind of your platform, your access to the world of
absolutely amazing wines.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Yeah, something that in wine or anything else.
If you don't have the productquality at a minimum, then
nothing else can happen.
It doesn't matter what you dofrom a retention marketing
standpoint if the customers hatethe product the first time that
they try it.
And so sometimes I think brandsand companies have to face the
(05:39):
hard truth that maybe they needto rethink the product a little
bit or tinker with it, becausethat might actually be where the
issue lies.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
No, I think you're absolutely right.
I mean, there's probablynothing worse than like getting
a bottle of wine, you pour itfor a bunch of friends, you take
a sip and then everyone's likeimmediately dumping it out.
There's nothing sadder thanthat and then having to take
that bottle and walk over to thesink and like pour it out or
save it to cook a little bitlater.
But that can sometimes be anexpensive, expensive volume.
(06:12):
So I think you're exactly right.
You got to nail the productdown.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
The moment where you are able to turn a non-wine
drinker or I have a lot offriends who they only drink
white wine and I'm more of a redperson but when I can get
either like a person from eitherof those two groups and then
introduce them to one of myfavorite bottles of red wine,
and then they're like, oh, wow,this is amazing, like this is
(06:39):
really good and like, yeah,that's because you've been
drinking shit for the last 30years and so this is what you
should be having and that's afun experience to get to educate
.
And it's not like I don't knowa ton either, and I love to be
on the other side of theequation where somebody's
introducing me to something thatI haven't tried before.
But I like to try everything.
(07:01):
I think it narrows your palateif you're like, oh, I only drink
this specific variety.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
So will you pour it?
For that Will you get the darkblack glasses where you can't
see through, and you pour eitherpour red or pour a white in
there, where they're just likeOK, you just have to taste it
objectively so they don't knowwhat they're tasting.
Or they would just say come on,trust me, guys, you're going to
like this.
How do you go about doing that?
Speaker 1 (07:26):
I have not done that, but that is an interesting
concept.
I might actually have to trythat.
Typically, I am doing it overdinner and I just I actually
think it's even funnier whenthey know it's red wine and
people don't like to be wrong.
And then they try it and yousee, the gears are turning in
their head and it's like oh, wow, like yeah, this is actually
(07:48):
pretty great, and I'm sure maybeone or two people are just you
know Saying that, but for thevast majority of them, you can
see whether or not they liked itbased off of, you know, does
the bottle last or does thebottle get finished?
And that's the, that's thebiggest telltale sign for me so
when it comes to the alcoholbusiness, though, like you know
(08:11):
why wine versus, you knownecessarily, you know liquor or
beer like what yeah what?
What brought you into wineversus some of the other alcohol
categories?
Speaker 2 (08:22):
So I think that there's really no other product
on earth like I really trulybelieve there's no other product
on earth that captures a timeand a place better than wine.
Like there you go across food,like sure, you have some stuff
that might be like 21 daydry-aged steak, but you're not
having like 20 year dry-agedsteak, right, it's, it's you
(08:42):
were capturing a place and amoment in a bottle and I just
think that is so, like, so cool,oh, and there's just like no
product like that.
Sure, you have some like agedwhiskeys, but, yeah, it's like,
whether you're going like birthyear, like your birthday or
daughter's birthday year, or ittakes you back to a time of you
(09:04):
know, even when I think aboutlike 2007, like when I, when I,
when I graduated college, likethere there are these things
that can spark memories andconversations, and there's just
no product out there that thatthat can do that.
And is why, like I continue tolove, to continue to love wine
(09:25):
and why I think it's probablywhy it's the best product on the
earth.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
I Think wine more than any other.
You know alcohol is all about.
You know that the setting, thepeople that you're with the.
You know the shared experienceand that's why I enjoy, you know
, having wine over dinner orhaving wine an event or having
wine with certain people, yeah,like, if I don't like somebody,
I'm not going to share a greatbottle with them to begin with.
(09:50):
But you know, the Experiencemakes it what it is and all the
unique history and background aswell.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Yeah, no, you're exactly right, because actually
that you know you say that inprompts is so I do have there.
There are certain wines that Iwon't even share with my best
friends because I don't, becauseI know they they're not huge
wine fans.
But then I might meet someonewho's like this amazing wine fan
and I might have met them forlike 10 or 20 minutes and I'm
like, okay, come over here likeyou're drinking this and then,
(10:17):
like one of my buddies will belike You've known me for 20
years and like you've nevershared that with me.
I was like this because youdon't care, like so I think
there's also this, like thisconnection of Souls that come
together when you have that one,like when you have that person
who really afraid great lovesgreat food or great wine, that
you have this instant connectionwith that you can become, you
(10:39):
know that that end up trumpingyour best friend of 20 years
because they're you're there,your wine friend and they're in
this special, they're in thisspecial category.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Yeah, I've got.
I got three buckets, I've got.
You know, anybody can have this, doesn't matter.
I mean, wine is basically freewhen you're in the industry and
have access to anything that youcould find at the Trader Joe's.
Then you have, you know, the,the mid-tier, where I would say
you know people like that, whoyou meet, who are really
passionate about it.
Yeah, we'd love to share itwith you.
It doesn't really matter ifyou've known them for five
(11:09):
minutes or forever.
And then there's the third tier, which is, you know, nobody's
touching this.
I'm not even touching it andyou know, maybe one day we'll
break into it, but for the mostpart we're just going to look at
it and admire from afar and Seewhat happens over the next 20
years.
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
No, exactly.
So, having men in and I haven'ttaken like a non-traditional
(11:33):
path into the wine industry,what were some of the things
that surprised you?
Speaker 2 (11:38):
you know, coming from other industries, other
verticals, yeah, I think there'sthe level of relationships and
how important relationships areLike.
I've always come through mycareer like relationships are
everything.
It's like how you know youbuild your networks, it's how
(11:58):
you find your mentors, it's howyou find your mentees.
I think that was one of thethings that you know there's a
tremendous like in order for abrand to trust you, like a
premium brand to be represented.
You know, when we're putting itforth on wine access, that
relationship with the Vittner islike so important, which is why
(12:19):
we always want to tell greatstories that really showcase
those brands.
And I knew that that was thecase coming in, but it's, you
know, being in the industry iseven more so because you know a
lot of these producers mightonly have, you know, 500, 1,000,
2,000 cases and like they getto kind of choose who they
(12:39):
decide to work with.
And that's why it's soimportant to invest in those
relationships and why I thinkhaving the amazing wine team we
do is so critically important towhat we do because of honoring
and honoring those relationships, whether it's with Vittners,
you know, obviously withcustomers as well.
(13:01):
So building that trust, so it's.
It probably sounds a littlegeneric, but it like really like
, even that being said, like itstill really is such an
important component of the wineindustry.
So I think that's one aspect ofit.
Then another and you know,obviously Drinks probably knows
this really well is like thedigital adoption has been very
(13:23):
slow in the industry and wineaccess is built a business
because of that.
I still think that, like, I'mstill surprised how much farther
we have have to go, which youknow, I imagine is good for
anyone who's making a bet onwine and digital.
But it's amazing to see some ofthese other.
You know how far along theseother industries are.
(13:46):
So we'll get there eventually.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
That's something that's always shocked me is why
the wine industry in particularis forced to use tools that you
know other verticals that I'veworked within are able to
leverage, and you see it a loton the software and technology
side, whether it's your commerceplatform or your email
(14:12):
marketing platform, and you knowsome of it is.
You know some of it makes alittle bit of sense because
typically businesses will buildstuff for the non-regulated
industries first and thenthey'll allow the regulated
industries in, but then you knowit's not.
I wouldn't say it makes sensein the in the fact that you know
the wine industry might be 10plus years behind when it comes
(14:33):
to some of the experiences thatI've seen online.
I feel like some of them evenpredate my existence when it
comes to the online orderingprocess that I'll go through.
But there's still some otherlegacy industries like that that
I'll run into every once in awhile, whether it's because of
regulation or for some otherreason, and I think one of the
(14:54):
easiest ways to tell is like,how quickly can I get from, you
know, add the cart to thispayment actually processing?
And the other day I was orderinga pickup order from Piravita,
which is this local spot downhere in Miami and it actually
would have been easier for me tojust like walk into the store
and tap my card on the POSreader, because there was no
(15:17):
accelerated checkout in any waywhatsoever.
I mean forced to create anaccount, couldn't create it as a
part of the checkout process,had to go through a separate
experience, then had to verifymy email.
I mean I think I sat in the carfor eight minutes before I was
finally done placing this orderand that stuff is painful,
especially in an industry whereyou know I think the cool factor
(15:38):
is something that's reallyimportant for the brands that
are succeeding online right now.
They're on the social channelslike a TikTok.
They have that customerexperience that you know the
younger generation expects and Ithink is leading a little bit
into why.
You know most people my age,they don't drink wine, they
drink seltzer, they drink, youknow, alternative products,
(16:01):
whatever it may be, and you knowin 30 years people in that
cohort are going to be the onesthat are supposed to be buying.
You know wine, the higher endwine as well, so it'll be an
interesting you know, next fiveyears, I think, as I hear time
and time again from wineries andlike that's a big concern for
them.
But it's like, okay, so nowwhat are you going to do to
(16:23):
address it?
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, good for you.
One for not abandoning car.
Like I'm shocked that it wentthat long.
Most people would have been,like you know, forgetting.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
I'm stubborn as hell, so I wasn't leaving before that
was processed.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Whatever you're getting, you're just like I have
to have that.
Yeah, no, I mean, you know,when you're talking about kind
of younger generations as well,I mean it's one of the things
that you know.
Five years ago I would havesaid we have time to look at NA,
like in terms of non-alcoholicdrinks, and it's something that
we're actually starting.
I've been spending a lot oftime like starting to form a
(16:57):
thesis around it.
Okay, like how do I understandwho are the right brands?
We partner with the Michelinguide, so we get to.
We're talking with a lot ofchefs and a lot of restaurants
and a lot of Psalms, and it'sbeen a conversation that we've
been having where, you know,they said five years ago no one
did an NA, no one had an NAprogram, and it's like now you
will see anywhere between 15 to50% of covers in any given night
(17:23):
are doing the NA pairing, whichto me, is just I was like
shocked.
So it's like each year I'm likeoh, it's only you know, we have
to figure this out in fiveyears.
We have to figure this out intwo years.
Now it's like okay, this issomething where we need to like
really form a good thesis around.
So it's, I feel, like the last,even the last three months, I've
been taking calls with tons ofdifferent producers, trying to
(17:45):
wrap my head around the NA side,because you know the you look
at the number of peopleabstaining from alcohol, you
know, while it hasn't I can'tremember the numbers are it's
something like 31% of the US,but it's up from 29%, which is
not like a huge number till youlook at, like, how big the US is
, which means that some peopleafter really be pushing that
(18:06):
number up.
So when we're talking withthese different brands, we're
also seeing that people who are,who are participating in these
non-alcoholic wines, 80% of themactually drink alcohol.
They actually drink.
It's just that they're lookingfor different, different
substitutes, maybe on that likeTuesday.
So so for me it's, it's it'smaking sure that we capture that
(18:29):
part of the category but also,you know, go through the same
rigorous standards that we wouldfor any, for any particular
wine.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Yeah, the, the NOAAOC is interesting.
I, for me, personally, if I'mgoing to drink wine, I'm going
to drink wine and I'd rather Idon't know I'd have like a poppy
or an ollie pop or something ifI'm, if I'm not drinking wine.
So it's something that isrising a lot and even like the,
you know, the rise of, you know,cbd drinks or cannabis drinks
(19:02):
is something that I've seenmultiple people less in Florida,
a lot more in California, whereyou know they show up to a
party with like a four pack ofone of those you know seltzers
that has cannabis in it, versusshowing up with, you know, a
high noon or a happy dad orwhatever, and and so you have
some of the competition comingfrom from there as well.
(19:23):
But, the aside from NOAAOC,like what are some of the other
trends or things that you'reseeing that you're you're
interested in?
We're?
looking to capitalize on.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Grower Champagne for us has just been like a huge,
huge category.
We've been doing a lot moredirect import with, with
different different producers.
I think there's probably likethree or four that we work with
quite a bit and I mean it'samazing because you're getting
these absolutely like stunninggrapes that would otherwise be
(19:55):
going into some of the like youknow, bigger, bigger Champagne
houses and you're able, you know, for 40, 50, 60 bucks you're
getting these amazing, theseamazing Champagne.
So that's really that's reallytaken off for us over the last
few years.
When we can get, when we canget lowar whites, those have
(20:15):
done really well.
There's obviously been a coupleof a couple of rough vintages
that have knocked down yields.
So we've seen, we've seen thatmove up.
You know quite a bit Trying tothink what else.
Like you know, greek whitewines have helped.
Cab obviously has been down.
Napa Cab has been down because,like you know, when you lose a
vintage or largely lose avintage, you're just going to
(20:37):
see a lot of supply, you know,come off the market.
But high in Bordeaux, like theGrand Coup, class A is the first
growth, second growth, etc.
Those have just been like forus have just been on fire.
It's like almost like we can'tkeep it in stock.
As soon as we get it in, it'salmost going right out the door.
So definitely like a lot, of, alot of French wines and then
(21:01):
some of the Sicilian wines,while kind of a smaller category
for us, probably on apercentage growth, has kind of
has come up quite a bit.
Quite a bit.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
What's your average, like you know?
Bottle price point, would yousay.
And is your customer somebodywho is looking to get in the
wine?
Is it somebody who is like awine aficionado?
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Yeah, it's about 30 or price points, probably around
30, 32 dollars.
I mean it's average, right.
So you have some bottles thatare in the 20 range and then
you're buying, you know, chateauLatour, I mean you're $1,500.
So on the number, but it's amuch smaller number of people
who are actually doing that.
Well, I'd say that most peoplewould see themselves as like
(21:45):
wine enthusiasts to wineaficionados.
So I think most people in therewhere they know they kind of
know enough to be dangerous andthey probably know the category
that they really like, so theymay come in and be like I love
Napa Cavs, I'm really wellversed in this, but they may not
be necessarily well versed inother parts of the world.
So I think that's that's wherewe have like a pretty pretty
(22:08):
savvy.
We have a pretty savvy buyer,but within potentially like a
single category or a couple ofthem.
And then every now and then weget some people who are new to
wine who will mostly come into awine club, one of our wine
clubs.
So wine club is about 15%, about15, 15% of our business and
that would be something like adiscovery club where they're
(22:28):
saying I'm new to wine, we lovethe content.
That that y'all do.
I learned so much from it and Ijust, you know, over every
quarter I want six bottles and Iwant to kind of learn about it,
but the majority, I think, arepretty decently well, well
versed.
If they saw, you know, if theysaw a label of a bottle shot of
silver oak even if you likepulled the name off of it,
they'd probably be able to kindof identify what that is.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Got it.
And how do you work withcustomers on, you know,
graduating them to new pricepoints or to higher price points
?
There's goes, yeah.
Something I've seen anecdotallyis people usually shot within a
defined window and that's their, that's their like price.
They have their lower bound andthen they have their upper
(23:14):
bound.
And it's like very psychologicalor like I know, for me I'm not
touching anything at the, youknow, at the grocery store
that's under a certain pricepoint, yeah, but I'm also.
I'm also the one who sits atthe restaurant or like gets the
list beforehand to see how badlyI'm getting screwed over by the
market.
But then there's other peoplewho you know they only drink,
they only drink cheap stuff andthat's it.
Or they only drink high endstuff, like there's friends of
(23:36):
mine drive me crazy, or it'slike they, if it's not expensive
, it's not good, whether it'swine or other things.
I'm like you're out of yourmind, like there's plenty of
stuff that's far better smallproduction and it might be, you
know, a quarter of the cost, buthow do you work on graduating
customers to like higher levelsof wine?
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Yeah, I think the best way I can describe it is we
meet customers where they're atfirst, so it's just like okay,
where, where's the level wherewe think it's going to be the
highest efficacy of getting themto the purchase?
And then, all but moreimportantly, like, consume and
(24:13):
like, and I think as you do thatand you build trust, I think
you will see customers tend tograduate either to different
categories or maybe workingtheir way up in a particular
category, and but it may not belike hey, I've had three Napa
cabs from you all in the $75price point and I love them, and
(24:36):
now tomorrow I'm going to gobuy you know something for 300.
So what we'll do is we may seethem start to experiment a
little bit more, because now therisk of them going from 75 to
100 is low, because it's lower,because they're like look,
you've, you've knocked it out ofthe park on the three or four
things that I've tried.
Now I'm a little bit morewilling to maybe move, move my
(24:58):
way up and from a contentperspective, they can
potentially see somesimilarities in that higher
price point bottle.
But they're intrigued bysomething that it may do.
It could be, you could be.
Hey, I've always wanted.
I've wanted to go.
Yeah, I've heard great thingsabout about Oakville or about
this particular vineyard.
(25:19):
Okay, maybe I will try it then.
So, whether it's consciouslymoving people I don't know if
we're consciously trying to movepeople up the ladder per se,
but I do think that you tend tosee people do that and also as
well as I think is people buildup sellers and have more and
more wine.
Sometimes, in their mind atleast I do is I have kind of a
(25:42):
fixed budget of what I'm gonnaspend on wine and, depending on
how much I've depleted versusnot, I'll still kind of spend to
that level, but that may justmean I'm buying more expensive
bottles.
At least that's how I'm like.
Well, I gotta use my budgetthis year for it.
So I think, yeah, I don't knowif we consciously move people up
more, so just try to providethem with wines that we think
(26:02):
that they'll love, which may bemore expensive, but they also
could move into differentcategories or different types of
cabs.
That could be less expensive.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
So it's more about what is the customer going to
like than necessarily hey, thisis gonna be a more expensive
product or this is going to be alower price product.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Exactly because I think, at the end of the day, if
we send them a bottle that theyfeel that I don't wanna say
overpaid for, but they gotsomething where they felt like
they had to go and buy, that,that's not a great experience.
A great experience is almostlike well great, you like Napa
Cab?
We actually think, based off ofyour taste profiles, you might
(26:43):
even like something fromAustralia better, which actually
could be less expensive, but itmight be more like within their
alley and to me that's a muchmore.
I'm gonna get so many morepeople who are gonna be smiling
about that and I think that'sactually a really cool part of
wine.
Going back to capturing placeand time.
(27:03):
Better than anything else, Ithink it helps people connect to
a different part of the worldor something else they never
tried before.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense when it comes to
what you're able to do onlineversus in person.
What are some of the thingsthat you like to take advantage
of in the e-commerce experiencethat you're just not able to do?
If you're selling the productthrough retail or if you're
(27:33):
selling the product in a tastingroom.
What are some of the e-commercetactics that you can leverage?
Speaker 2 (27:41):
Yeah, I mean, I think there's this notion of
personalization, like truepersonalization, that you can
get it in an e-commerceexperience.
You can get some, which soundscrazy because it's like if you
go in person, you can kind ofsay what you like.
But then there's something aboutwhere, if you have a purchase
(28:01):
history with a particularconsumer over a 10-year period
and you actually know we'veprofiled every single wine and
it has based off of the thingsthat you've rated and the things
that you said, we actuallyempirically know that you like
bold reds, but you do like alittle bit of acid, you do like
(28:22):
a little bit of, you may likehigh tan in, and that might be
hard to replicate in personunless you have direct access to
someone's buying profile.
It's kind of the notion of ifyou have enough information or
enough data, you have a betteridea of potentially what that
person likes, even more thanthey do.
(28:42):
So I think that's somethingthat online, as long as you have
that data backbone behind you,that's something that you can
showcase and I think with everysingle wine that we write up and
then we profile, you may not beable to get that in a tasting
room per se.
You will have some extremelyknowledgeable people being able
(29:03):
to talk through probably five or10 wines really, really, really
intelligently, I think, online.
It's just simply.
We have just so much dataaround every wine in history
that you're just able todemonstrate that in a pretty
compelling way.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Yeah.
What are your thoughts, though,around how to navigate around
the complexity of the regulatoryenvironment in the US when it
comes to direct shipping ofalcohol?
Because that was totally newfor me when I entered into this
industry.
It was like what do you mean?
I can't just start shippingstuff everywhere.
And then there's also the rulesand regulations when it comes
(29:47):
to the advertising of alcoholonline, but how have you managed
that component like dealingwith the regulatory framework
that's in place?
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Yeah, I mean I think you know the the valley for the
most part uses kind of the sameI feel like it's the same number
of beverage attorneys, whichthey do really well, and have
built down all the differentframeworks that that pretty much
exist.
My guess is, drinks uses thesame person as wine, access as
(30:18):
last bottle, and I think they'vedone a great job over you know
God, what's probably the last 25years of how to set up the
right frameworks as well asbuild the right kind of
technologies, the shipcompliance of the world, and you
have all these different,different tech solutions that
that basically help ensuringthat that everyone is is playing
(30:41):
on, playing on the right youknow the an even playing field
and and following those.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Some of the rules to me are still just mind boggling.
Them that are like countyspecific or even, like you know,
certain dry zip codes.
It's.
It's crazy how tangled thisentire industry has gotten when
it comes to regulations around.
Who can like just consumerchoice?
The state controlled liquor?
(31:11):
Well, you know, like inPennsylvania, for example, where
every retailer is owned by thestate, or going even outside of
the US and Canada, or likeeverything is owned by the
country.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
And.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
I know, like when we're at Pro wine, you know the
Canadian buyer sort of walksaround as if he's this, this
king.
But quite literally he is likehe's the guy.
If you want your product tosell in Canada, you better make
sure that he not only likes you,but that he likes your product.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
It's just wild.
Yeah, it really is.
But you know a lot of thoselaws were written in the.
You know prohibition time inthe 20s might be time to dust
that off, and what do you mean?
Speaker 1 (31:55):
they're not.
They're not still applicable,you know 100 years later.
It's.
I was having a conversationwith somebody the other day
about how everything justhappened so much faster now and
like generations are usuallydefined, I think, in like 15 to
20 year windows and I'm olderGen Z and then you have younger
Gen Z and I am not even anywherenear what you know.
(32:18):
a 14 year old is like right whenit comes to quite when it comes
to quite literally anything,whether it's, you know,
technological savvy.
You know the words that I use.
When I talk, I feel like theydo.
I don't even speak English.
It's hard to keep up with them,and but the same can be said
for just e commerce over thepast couple of years as well.
(32:39):
Yeah, I think that's sort ofgiven the alcohol industry a
little bit of kick in the in theright direction.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Yeah, yeah, no, it's interesting because I was I'm a
millennial, so I but I still had, like I didn't have a cell
phone, I think, until I went tocollege, so it's like largely
grew up like digital, like stillstill knew how to use a pay
phone and then like landlines,so yeah, it's been, it's.
It's interesting to think thatyou know you have you know 21,
(33:07):
22, 23 years year olds that likeI have no clue of that, like of
that timeframe, like it's all.
They've all grown up purely,purely digital.
Yeah, yeah, it's something thatwe think about and I would say
that most, most of the times,our consumers aren't really in
that.
It's in that age group it'sprobably a little bit more,
until they get into their, youknow, above 25, 26 and our
(33:31):
average age is probably closerto about 50, because that's kind
of like what the wine buyer is.
But it is interesting to thinkabout like, okay, when we're
marketing towards that group,like what are you know, what are
the values that they, that theyhave, that we have to, that we
really have to, kind of that wehave to hone in on.
So it's very different than youknow, probably like my parents
(33:52):
generation who was, like you,locked in on a brand like no
matter what.
You just kept going to thatbrand over and over and I think
you saw a lot of brand loyaltywithin boomers and my my
perception at least.
This hasn't been quantified,but it feels like the level of
brand loyalty in a consumerproduct may not necessarily be
(34:14):
there for some of the, some ofthe younger generations.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Yeah, I think you know I hop over from brand to
brand all the time.
I got like maybe a couple thatI'm keyed in on, but for the
most part it's a little bit allover the place, and I think it's
just forcing companies to bemore innovative and to not be
stuck in their ways, which mightbe a good thing.
But I got one last question foryou here which ties back into a
(34:42):
little bit of our earlierdiscussions in the podcast
what's your, what's yourfavorite wine memory?
Speaker 2 (34:48):
wine favorite wine memory there's probably there's
always, like there's so manygood ones and then there's
probably so many that, like Ihave since since forgot as well
Drinking tonight.
If I had to pick a favoritewine memory, it might have been
(35:09):
the first time that there'sactually pretty recent, so I'll
pick this one.
I shouldn't say pretty recent.
A few years ago drink a bottleof solos.
So it was our head of wine atthe time knew that I'm a huge,
like huge champagne fan and hadjust got done with the trip over
(35:30):
over in and she had to likewrestle a bottle of solos, like
sample bottle from from them tobring to me because she had
always wanted me to try, trythis.
It was a solos in a Seattle.
It's like very different thanyou know than than a lot of the
other other champagne's outthere.
I just like this is for you,like you are, you drink this
(35:53):
when you don't drink with me,you just drink it when you know
a special time and I remember itwas had a bunch of friends over
for dinner and like I'd never,never even heard of it before
and we're showing everyone's.
Like you know, our head of winebrought this back.
She said I'm gonna love it.
(36:13):
She said it's so hard to find.
Like you know, like you rarelyget to drink this and like I
ended up pouring it out, pouringit for everyone.
And we're like sitting theredrinking like a little bit and
everyone's like, oh, it's good,I guess, but like you're looking
at everyone's faces andeveryone's like it's that thing
when someone tells you it'ssupposed to be good and then
you're not sure if you like itor not, so no one really says
(36:36):
anything, and we're just kind ofsitting there drinking and
everyone's glasses are kind ofgoing, going down and we keep
pouring out and like within,probably within like 30 minutes,
like we end up pouring out.
We pour everyone the bottlesgone and we like later look and
like what do you think of that?
They're like oh my God, thatwas like the best wine I've ever
had in my life.
But it was like right off thebat we were like actually
(36:58):
confused as to whether we likeit a lot and I think that was
like that showcases, like it wassuch a cool moment to see, like
how not only how that wineevolved, but that I don't know.
You can still like, you canstill be surprised, and ever
since then it's just like wetalk about how my budget stays.
(37:18):
You know the same, but fewerbottles is probably also too,
because anytime I can get myhands on a bottle of Salos, like
I'm grabbing it and I thoughtthat was like such a, such a
Interest.
It was like within 30 minutes,right, oh my god, how do we go
by like three or four more ofthose?
So I call my head, I says yeah,good luck, like Joe that you
like, our allocation we get islike six a year and since then I
(37:43):
always at least take three formyself.
It's the only the only timewhere, the only time where I
take a big portion of our, ofour allocation to something.
So that was that was.
That was a pretty fun one.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
Yeah, I found this wine and maybe I shouldn't
mention on this podcast becauseI don't want other people to
take all mine.
It's called quill Qi ll, notquilt, which is like the one
that you'll see everywhere, butit's.
They've got one at DiamondMountain and one of one of the
(38:17):
other ones that I'm forgetting,but super small production, and
I found it at At a restaurant inSan Diego and Like a born and
raised, like the steakhousethere and it was amazing and I
think it was like it wassomething some ridiculously low
production.
And I found it online.
(38:38):
I was able to like get like 24bottles and I just had my like
second to last one.
But that's the wine that I'vebeen using Without fail to
convert the non-wine drinkers orthe white wine drinkers,
because they're all like 2010,2011, 2012 and they are in their
(38:58):
perfect, like sweet spot fordrinking, where they still are
very, you know, fruit forward,but they've settled out a little
bit and, you know, in fiveyears They'll probably, you know
, not be, though they probablywon't be good, and but it's like
right, right in that perfectdrinking time, and so now I'm
not now I'm on the hunt for more, but they, literally they don't
even reply to me.
I've reached out like a thousandtimes on their website.
(39:19):
You can't order online.
Like what the hell is going onhere?
I'm gonna fly there.
Actually, I'll be in Sonoma inlike a month.
Maybe I'll go track them downand be like listen, I need it
more of your wine.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
It's like knocking.
You're like, let me.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
Yeah, seriously, I'll build you a Shopify website for
free and help you figure outyour direct to consumer presence
, if you just give me a case ayear.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
Yeah, I'll do it for super cheap.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
Yeah, exactly.
Well, thank you so much for forjoining me today, but before we
hop off, can you let everybodyknow where they can find you and
wine access online?
Speaker 2 (39:55):
Yeah, absolutely so, so easy at wwwwineaccesscom.
So super, super simple.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
We love that.
Drinkscom makes it prettysimple too.
Speaker 2 (40:08):
You're even, that's even easier.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
Yes, I have to repeat it though, because people are
like what's your email?
And I'm like Brandon atdrinkscom and they're like what
my god?
Drinkscom like the drink like?
Oh okay, yeah, that is easy.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
It's all.
It's too easy that it justdoesn't like it.
It's like they can't be thecase.
Someone else must have thatdomain.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
Exactly, exactly.
Well, thank you everybody forlistening.
As always, this is BrandonMoroso and you can find me at
drinkscom.
We will see you next time.
Thanks for coming out.
Thanks, brandon.
Hey everyone, thank you for listening to
thedrinkscom podcast.
I'm Brandon Amoroso, your host,and today I'm talking with Joe
Fish, CEO at Wine Access, asource for expertly curated wine
(00:21):
.
Thank you for coming on theshow, Joe.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
No, Brandon, thanks for having me and happy to be
here.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
So before we dive into some of the topics we want
to cover today, can you giveeverybody just a quick
background and intro on yourselfand how you got to this point?
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Yeah, with all of you .
So been at Wine Access now forabout six years or so.
So I originally came in as theVP of finance back in 2017, and
then 18 ended up moving in aconcurrent role as CEO.
But prior to that I'd had anumber of different roles,
mostly in the retail andconsumer space.
(00:57):
So prior to that I was at theGhirardelli Chocolate Company,
which was awesome experience wasthere for about two and a half
years and I've always said thatif I can't eat or drink the
product that we're selling, thenI won't be able to understand
it.
So if I had to do cybersecuritySaaS business, I'd be in so
much trouble.
But before that I was at PWCfor about seven years.
(01:21):
I worked both in our dealspractice so mostly doing buy
side and sell side due diligencefor private equity Again in the
retail consumer space and thenwas in audit for about three
years and that's actually whereI really got my first love of
wine.
So my two biggest clients atthe time were Kendall Jackson
and Foster's wine estate.
(01:41):
So what is now Treasury In myhead?
I still always call themFoster's, and this was back in
around 2007, 2008, and fresh outof school, it was great because
I got to go work on these twoclients that are making
absolutely amazing wines,spending my summers up in wine
country, which was a lotdifferent than the year before,
(02:03):
when I was drinking Mickey's 40sin a college dorm.
I remember at Treasury gettingto go into the employee store
and was able to pick up abarrage or private reserve O3,
for really great prices.
And I popped open that firstbottle when I got home with some
of my roommates and were likeholy cow, this is amazing.
(02:26):
I was like this is alsoterrible because I think I'm
going to develop a reallyexpensive habit.
So ever since that time I waslike how do I get back in?
I should say I would reallylike to be in wine.
So that's always been one ofthese things in the back of my
head of like okay, eventuallyI'm going to move into wine.
(02:47):
So spend some time in audit andthen move into our deals
practice, so doing a lot ofconsulting.
So you're flying all over theUS and you're not paid well, but
at least you're kind of eatingand drinking pretty well.
So that again developed the lovefor food and wine, which was
such like a big, at least from afood standpoint, was very big
in my family.
(03:07):
So continue on throughout mycareer.
The Ghirardelli comes up andthen, finally, the opportunity
for Wine Access.
Wine Access comes up and I'mlike, oh, this is going to be
perfect because, well, I thoughtthat potentially working in a
winery could be interesting.
I wanted to be able to dosomething that was a little bit
more broad-based, working acrossmultiple brands and also being
(03:30):
able to kind of use some of mybackground that I had in
e-commerce and retail andconsumer.
So when the job for Wine Accesscame up, I remember my
predecessor was looking forsomeone who knew e-commerce.
So that's got like a super widefunnel and it's like they also
have to run the finance group.
Same thing.
The funnel doesn't get thatmuch more narrow and they also
(03:53):
have to have experience in wineand finance in wine.
So there's probably like fiveof us.
So my buddy ended up getting aninterview.
He's like you know what I'mgoing to pass, but you should
talk to Joe.
And then that's how I ended upat Wine Access and have been
here since.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
That's awesome.
And for those listening, whatexactly is Wine Access?
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Yeah, so we are a direct-to-consumer e-commerce
platform, so 99% of what we dois direct-to-consumer finding
what we think are the best winesin the world, pound for pound.
So I have a great team master'son the team, foremost sake,
expert advanced song who havededicated their lives to going
out and finding the best bottlesin the world, in which we
(04:39):
always put together with a 500to a thousand word narrative
when we put that wine in frontof customers.
So we really want customers toget the best wine but, just as
importantly, know who are thepeople, what's the place behind
it, why is this relevant to you?
And that's what we reallyshowcase to do always ensuring
(04:59):
kind of perfect provenance ofthe way that we taste it in the
Chateau is the same way ittastes when it gets to your
doorstep, and then all backed byphenomenal customer service.
So really kind of your platform, your access to the world of
absolutely amazing wines.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Yeah, something that in wine or anything else.
If you don't have the productquality at a minimum, then
nothing else can happen.
It doesn't matter what you dofrom a retention marketing
standpoint if the customers hatethe product the first time that
they try it.
And so sometimes I think brandsand companies have to face the
(05:39):
hard truth that maybe they needto rethink the product a little
bit or tinker with it, becausethat might actually be where the
issue lies.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
No, I think you're absolutely right.
I mean, there's probablynothing worse than like getting
a bottle of wine, you pour itfor a bunch of friends, you take
a sip and then everyone's likeimmediately dumping it out.
There's nothing sadder thanthat and then having to take
that bottle and walk over to thesink and like pour it out or
save it to cook a little bitlater.
But that can sometimes be anexpensive, expensive volume.
(06:12):
So I think you're exactly right.
You got to nail the productdown.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
The moment where you are able to turn a non-wine
drinker or I have a lot offriends who they only drink
white wine and I'm more of a redperson but when I can get
either like a person from eitherof those two groups and then
introduce them to one of myfavorite bottles of red wine,
and then they're like, oh, wow,this is amazing, like this is
(06:39):
really good and like, yeah,that's because you've been
drinking shit for the last 30years and so this is what you
should be having and that's afun experience to get to educate
.
And it's not like I don't knowa ton either, and I love to be
on the other side of theequation where somebody's
introducing me to something thatI haven't tried before.
But I like to try everything.
(07:01):
I think it narrows your palateif you're like, oh, I only drink
this specific variety.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
So will you pour it?
For that Will you get the darkblack glasses where you can't
see through, and you pour eitherpour red or pour a white in
there, where they're just likeOK, you just have to taste it
objectively so they don't knowwhat they're tasting.
Or they would just say come on,trust me, guys, you're going to
like this.
How do you go about doing that?
Speaker 1 (07:26):
I have not done that, but that is an interesting
concept.
I might actually have to trythat.
Typically, I am doing it overdinner and I just I actually
think it's even funnier whenthey know it's red wine and
people don't like to be wrong.
And then they try it and yousee, the gears are turning in
their head and it's like oh, wow, like yeah, this is actually
(07:48):
pretty great, and I'm sure maybeone or two people are just you
know Saying that, but for thevast majority of them, you can
see whether or not they liked itbased off of, you know, does
the bottle last or does thebottle get finished?
And that's the, that's thebiggest telltale sign for me so
when it comes to the alcoholbusiness, though, like you know
(08:11):
why wine versus, you knownecessarily, you know liquor or
beer like what yeah what?
What brought you into wineversus some of the other alcohol
categories?
Speaker 2 (08:22):
So I think that there's really no other product
on earth like I really trulybelieve there's no other product
on earth that captures a timeand a place better than wine.
Like there you go across food,like sure, you have some stuff
that might be like 21 daydry-aged steak, but you're not
having like 20 year dry-agedsteak, right, it's, it's you
(08:42):
were capturing a place and amoment in a bottle and I just
think that is so, like, so cool,oh, and there's just like no
product like that.
Sure, you have some like agedwhiskeys, but, yeah, it's like,
whether you're going like birthyear, like your birthday or
daughter's birthday year, or ittakes you back to a time of you
(09:04):
know, even when I think aboutlike 2007, like when I, when I,
when I graduated college, likethere there are these things
that can spark memories andconversations, and there's just
no product out there that thatthat can do that.
And is why, like I continue tolove, to continue to love wine
(09:25):
and why I think it's probablywhy it's the best product on the
earth.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
I Think wine more than any other.
You know alcohol is all about.
You know that the setting, thepeople that you're with the.
You know the shared experienceand that's why I enjoy, you know
, having wine over dinner orhaving wine an event or having
wine with certain people, yeah,like, if I don't like somebody,
I'm not going to share a greatbottle with them to begin with.
(09:50):
But you know, the Experiencemakes it what it is and all the
unique history and background aswell.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Yeah, no, you're exactly right, because actually
that you know you say that inprompts is so I do have there.
There are certain wines that Iwon't even share with my best
friends because I don't, becauseI know they they're not huge
wine fans.
But then I might meet someonewho's like this amazing wine fan
and I might have met them forlike 10 or 20 minutes and I'm
like, okay, come over here likeyou're drinking this and then,
(10:17):
like one of my buddies will belike You've known me for 20
years and like you've nevershared that with me.
I was like this because youdon't care, like so I think
there's also this, like thisconnection of Souls that come
together when you have that one,like when you have that person
who really afraid great lovesgreat food or great wine, that
you have this instant connectionwith that you can become, you
(10:39):
know that that end up trumpingyour best friend of 20 years
because they're you're there,your wine friend and they're in
this special, they're in thisspecial category.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Yeah, I've got.
I got three buckets, I've got.
You know, anybody can have this, doesn't matter.
I mean, wine is basically freewhen you're in the industry and
have access to anything that youcould find at the Trader Joe's.
Then you have, you know, the,the mid-tier, where I would say
you know people like that, whoyou meet, who are really
passionate about it.
Yeah, we'd love to share itwith you.
It doesn't really matter ifyou've known them for five
(11:09):
minutes or forever.
And then there's the third tier, which is, you know, nobody's
touching this.
I'm not even touching it andyou know, maybe one day we'll
break into it, but for the mostpart we're just going to look at
it and admire from afar and Seewhat happens over the next 20
years.
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
No, exactly.
So, having men in and I haven'ttaken like a non-traditional
(11:33):
path into the wine industry,what were some of the things
that surprised you?
Speaker 2 (11:38):
you know, coming from other industries, other
verticals, yeah, I think there'sthe level of relationships and
how important relationships areLike.
I've always come through mycareer like relationships are
everything.
It's like how you know youbuild your networks, it's how
(11:58):
you find your mentors, it's howyou find your mentees.
I think that was one of thethings that you know there's a
tremendous like in order for abrand to trust you, like a
premium brand to be represented.
You know, when we're putting itforth on wine access, that
relationship with the Vittner islike so important, which is why
(12:19):
we always want to tell greatstories that really showcase
those brands.
And I knew that that was thecase coming in, but it's, you
know, being in the industry iseven more so because you know a
lot of these producers mightonly have, you know, 500, 1,000,
2,000 cases and like they getto kind of choose who they
(12:39):
decide to work with.
And that's why it's soimportant to invest in those
relationships and why I thinkhaving the amazing wine team we
do is so critically important towhat we do because of honoring
and honoring those relationships, whether it's with Vittners,
you know, obviously withcustomers as well.
(13:01):
So building that trust, so it's.
It probably sounds a littlegeneric, but it like really like
, even that being said, like itstill really is such an
important component of the wineindustry.
So I think that's one aspect ofit.
Then another and you know,obviously Drinks probably knows
this really well is like thedigital adoption has been very
(13:23):
slow in the industry and wineaccess is built a business
because of that.
I still think that, like, I'mstill surprised how much farther
we have have to go, which youknow, I imagine is good for
anyone who's making a bet onwine and digital.
But it's amazing to see some ofthese other.
You know how far along theseother industries are.
(13:46):
So we'll get there eventually.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
That's something that's always shocked me is why
the wine industry in particularis forced to use tools that you
know other verticals that I'veworked within are able to
leverage, and you see it a loton the software and technology
side, whether it's your commerceplatform or your email
(14:12):
marketing platform, and you knowsome of it is.
You know some of it makes alittle bit of sense because
typically businesses will buildstuff for the non-regulated
industries first and thenthey'll allow the regulated
industries in, but then you knowit's not.
I wouldn't say it makes sensein the in the fact that you know
the wine industry might be 10plus years behind when it comes
(14:33):
to some of the experiences thatI've seen online.
I feel like some of them evenpredate my existence when it
comes to the online orderingprocess that I'll go through.
But there's still some otherlegacy industries like that that
I'll run into every once in awhile, whether it's because of
regulation or for some otherreason, and I think one of the
(14:54):
easiest ways to tell is like,how quickly can I get from, you
know, add the cart to thispayment actually processing?
And the other day I was orderinga pickup order from Piravita,
which is this local spot downhere in Miami and it actually
would have been easier for me tojust like walk into the store
and tap my card on the POSreader, because there was no
(15:17):
accelerated checkout in any waywhatsoever.
I mean forced to create anaccount, couldn't create it as a
part of the checkout process,had to go through a separate
experience, then had to verifymy email.
I mean I think I sat in the carfor eight minutes before I was
finally done placing this orderand that stuff is painful,
especially in an industry whereyou know I think the cool factor
(15:38):
is something that's reallyimportant for the brands that
are succeeding online right now.
They're on the social channelslike a TikTok.
They have that customerexperience that you know the
younger generation expects and Ithink is leading a little bit
into why.
You know most people my age,they don't drink wine, they
drink seltzer, they drink, youknow, alternative products,
(16:01):
whatever it may be, and you knowin 30 years people in that
cohort are going to be the onesthat are supposed to be buying.
You know wine, the higher endwine as well, so it'll be an
interesting you know, next fiveyears, I think, as I hear time
and time again from wineries andlike that's a big concern for
them.
But it's like, okay, so nowwhat are you going to do to
(16:23):
address it?
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, good for you.
One for not abandoning car.
Like I'm shocked that it wentthat long.
Most people would have been,like you know, forgetting.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
I'm stubborn as hell, so I wasn't leaving before that
was processed.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Whatever you're getting, you're just like I have
to have that.
Yeah, no, I mean, you know,when you're talking about kind
of younger generations as well,I mean it's one of the things
that you know.
Five years ago I would havesaid we have time to look at NA,
like in terms of non-alcoholicdrinks, and it's something that
we're actually starting.
I've been spending a lot oftime like starting to form a
(16:57):
thesis around it.
Okay, like how do I understandwho are the right brands?
We partner with the Michelinguide, so we get to.
We're talking with a lot ofchefs and a lot of restaurants
and a lot of Psalms, and it'sbeen a conversation that we've
been having where, you know,they said five years ago no one
did an NA, no one had an NAprogram, and it's like now you
will see anywhere between 15 to50% of covers in any given night
(17:23):
are doing the NA pairing, whichto me, is just I was like
shocked.
So it's like each year I'm likeoh, it's only you know, we have
to figure this out in fiveyears.
We have to figure this out intwo years.
Now it's like okay, this issomething where we need to like
really form a good thesis around.
So it's, I feel, like the last,even the last three months, I've
been taking calls with tons ofdifferent producers, trying to
(17:45):
wrap my head around the NA side,because you know the you look
at the number of peopleabstaining from alcohol, you
know, while it hasn't I can'tremember the numbers are it's
something like 31% of the US,but it's up from 29%, which is
not like a huge number till youlook at, like, how big the US is
, which means that some peopleafter really be pushing that
(18:06):
number up.
So when we're talking withthese different brands, we're
also seeing that people who are,who are participating in these
non-alcoholic wines, 80% of themactually drink alcohol.
They actually drink.
It's just that they're lookingfor different, different
substitutes, maybe on that likeTuesday.
So so for me it's, it's it'smaking sure that we capture that
(18:29):
part of the category but also,you know, go through the same
rigorous standards that we wouldfor any, for any particular
wine.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Yeah, the, the NOAAOC is interesting.
I, for me, personally, if I'mgoing to drink wine, I'm going
to drink wine and I'd rather Idon't know I'd have like a poppy
or an ollie pop or something ifI'm, if I'm not drinking wine.
So it's something that isrising a lot and even like the,
you know, the rise of, you know,cbd drinks or cannabis drinks
(19:02):
is something that I've seenmultiple people less in Florida,
a lot more in California, whereyou know they show up to a
party with like a four pack ofone of those you know seltzers
that has cannabis in it, versusshowing up with, you know, a
high noon or a happy dad orwhatever, and and so you have
some of the competition comingfrom from there as well.
(19:23):
But, the aside from NOAAOC,like what are some of the other
trends or things that you'reseeing that you're you're
interested in?
We're?
looking to capitalize on.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Grower Champagne for us has just been like a huge,
huge category.
We've been doing a lot moredirect import with, with
different different producers.
I think there's probably likethree or four that we work with
quite a bit and I mean it'samazing because you're getting
these absolutely like stunninggrapes that would otherwise be
(19:55):
going into some of the like youknow, bigger, bigger Champagne
houses and you're able, you know, for 40, 50, 60 bucks you're
getting these amazing, theseamazing Champagne.
So that's really that's reallytaken off for us over the last
few years.
When we can get, when we canget lowar whites, those have
(20:15):
done really well.
There's obviously been a coupleof a couple of rough vintages
that have knocked down yields.
So we've seen, we've seen thatmove up.
You know quite a bit Trying tothink what else.
Like you know, greek whitewines have helped.
Cab obviously has been down.
Napa Cab has been down because,like you know, when you lose a
vintage or largely lose avintage, you're just going to
(20:37):
see a lot of supply, you know,come off the market.
But high in Bordeaux, like theGrand Coup, class A is the first
growth, second growth, etc.
Those have just been like forus have just been on fire.
It's like almost like we can'tkeep it in stock.
As soon as we get it in, it'salmost going right out the door.
So definitely like a lot, of, alot of French wines and then
(21:01):
some of the Sicilian wines,while kind of a smaller category
for us, probably on apercentage growth, has kind of
has come up quite a bit.
Quite a bit.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
What's your average, like you know?
Bottle price point, would yousay.
And is your customer somebodywho is looking to get in the
wine?
Is it somebody who is like awine aficionado?
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Yeah, it's about 30 or price points, probably around
30, 32 dollars.
I mean it's average, right.
So you have some bottles thatare in the 20 range and then
you're buying, you know, chateauLatour, I mean you're $1,500.
So on the number, but it's amuch smaller number of people
who are actually doing that.
Well, I'd say that most peoplewould see themselves as like
(21:45):
wine enthusiasts to wineaficionados.
So I think most people in therewhere they know they kind of
know enough to be dangerous andthey probably know the category
that they really like, so theymay come in and be like I love
Napa Cavs, I'm really wellversed in this, but they may not
be necessarily well versed inother parts of the world.
So I think that's that's wherewe have like a pretty pretty
(22:08):
savvy.
We have a pretty savvy buyer,but within potentially like a
single category or a couple ofthem.
And then every now and then weget some people who are new to
wine who will mostly come into awine club, one of our wine
clubs.
So wine club is about 15%, about15, 15% of our business and
that would be something like adiscovery club where they're
(22:28):
saying I'm new to wine, we lovethe content.
That that y'all do.
I learned so much from it and Ijust, you know, over every
quarter I want six bottles and Iwant to kind of learn about it,
but the majority, I think, arepretty decently well, well
versed.
If they saw, you know, if theysaw a label of a bottle shot of
silver oak even if you likepulled the name off of it,
they'd probably be able to kindof identify what that is.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Got it.
And how do you work withcustomers on, you know,
graduating them to new pricepoints or to higher price points
?
There's goes, yeah.
Something I've seen anecdotallyis people usually shot within a
defined window and that's their, that's their like price.
They have their lower bound andthen they have their upper
(23:14):
bound.
And it's like very psychologicalor like I know, for me I'm not
touching anything at the, youknow, at the grocery store
that's under a certain pricepoint, yeah, but I'm also.
I'm also the one who sits atthe restaurant or like gets the
list beforehand to see how badlyI'm getting screwed over by the
market.
But then there's other peoplewho you know they only drink,
they only drink cheap stuff andthat's it.
Or they only drink high endstuff, like there's friends of
(23:36):
mine drive me crazy, or it'slike they, if it's not expensive
, it's not good, whether it'swine or other things.
I'm like you're out of yourmind, like there's plenty of
stuff that's far better smallproduction and it might be, you
know, a quarter of the cost, buthow do you work on graduating
customers to like higher levelsof wine?
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Yeah, I think the best way I can describe it is we
meet customers where they're atfirst, so it's just like okay,
where, where's the level wherewe think it's going to be the
highest efficacy of getting themto the purchase?
And then, all but moreimportantly, like, consume and
(24:13):
like, and I think as you do thatand you build trust, I think
you will see customers tend tograduate either to different
categories or maybe workingtheir way up in a particular
category, and but it may not belike hey, I've had three Napa
cabs from you all in the $75price point and I love them, and
(24:36):
now tomorrow I'm going to gobuy you know something for 300.
So what we'll do is we may seethem start to experiment a
little bit more, because now therisk of them going from 75 to
100 is low, because it's lower,because they're like look,
you've, you've knocked it out ofthe park on the three or four
things that I've tried.
Now I'm a little bit morewilling to maybe move, move my
(24:58):
way up and from a contentperspective, they can
potentially see somesimilarities in that higher
price point bottle.
But they're intrigued bysomething that it may do.
It could be, you could be.
Hey, I've always wanted.
I've wanted to go.
Yeah, I've heard great thingsabout about Oakville or about
this particular vineyard.
(25:19):
Okay, maybe I will try it then.
So, whether it's consciouslymoving people I don't know if
we're consciously trying to movepeople up the ladder per se,
but I do think that you tend tosee people do that and also as
well as I think is people buildup sellers and have more and
more wine.
Sometimes, in their mind atleast I do is I have kind of a
(25:42):
fixed budget of what I'm gonnaspend on wine and, depending on
how much I've depleted versusnot, I'll still kind of spend to
that level, but that may justmean I'm buying more expensive
bottles.
At least that's how I'm like.
Well, I gotta use my budgetthis year for it.
So I think, yeah, I don't knowif we consciously move people up
more, so just try to providethem with wines that we think
(26:02):
that they'll love, which may bemore expensive, but they also
could move into differentcategories or different types of
cabs.
That could be less expensive.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
So it's more about what is the customer going to
like than necessarily hey, thisis gonna be a more expensive
product or this is going to be alower price product.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Exactly because I think, at the end of the day, if
we send them a bottle that theyfeel that I don't wanna say
overpaid for, but they gotsomething where they felt like
they had to go and buy, that,that's not a great experience.
A great experience is almostlike well great, you like Napa
Cab?
We actually think, based off ofyour taste profiles, you might
(26:43):
even like something fromAustralia better, which actually
could be less expensive, but itmight be more like within their
alley and to me that's a muchmore.
I'm gonna get so many morepeople who are gonna be smiling
about that and I think that'sactually a really cool part of
wine.
Going back to capturing placeand time.
(27:03):
Better than anything else, Ithink it helps people connect to
a different part of the worldor something else they never
tried before.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense when it comes to
what you're able to do onlineversus in person.
What are some of the thingsthat you like to take advantage
of in the e-commerce experiencethat you're just not able to do?
If you're selling the productthrough retail or if you're
(27:33):
selling the product in a tastingroom.
What are some of the e-commercetactics that you can leverage?
Speaker 2 (27:41):
Yeah, I mean, I think there's this notion of
personalization, like truepersonalization, that you can
get it in an e-commerceexperience.
You can get some, which soundscrazy because it's like if you
go in person, you can kind ofsay what you like.
But then there's something aboutwhere, if you have a purchase
(28:01):
history with a particularconsumer over a 10-year period
and you actually know we'veprofiled every single wine and
it has based off of the thingsthat you've rated and the things
that you said, we actuallyempirically know that you like
bold reds, but you do like alittle bit of acid, you do like
(28:22):
a little bit of, you may likehigh tan in, and that might be
hard to replicate in personunless you have direct access to
someone's buying profile.
It's kind of the notion of ifyou have enough information or
enough data, you have a betteridea of potentially what that
person likes, even more thanthey do.
(28:42):
So I think that's somethingthat online, as long as you have
that data backbone behind you,that's something that you can
showcase and I think with everysingle wine that we write up and
then we profile, you may not beable to get that in a tasting
room per se.
You will have some extremelyknowledgeable people being able
(29:03):
to talk through probably five or10 wines really, really, really
intelligently, I think, online.
It's just simply.
We have just so much dataaround every wine in history
that you're just able todemonstrate that in a pretty
compelling way.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Yeah.
What are your thoughts, though,around how to navigate around
the complexity of the regulatoryenvironment in the US when it
comes to direct shipping ofalcohol?
Because that was totally newfor me when I entered into this
industry.
It was like what do you mean?
I can't just start shippingstuff everywhere.
And then there's also the rulesand regulations when it comes
(29:47):
to the advertising of alcoholonline, but how have you managed
that component like dealingwith the regulatory framework
that's in place?
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Yeah, I mean I think you know the the valley for the
most part uses kind of the sameI feel like it's the same number
of beverage attorneys, whichthey do really well, and have
built down all the differentframeworks that that pretty much
exist.
My guess is, drinks uses thesame person as wine, access as
(30:18):
last bottle, and I think they'vedone a great job over you know
God, what's probably the last 25years of how to set up the
right frameworks as well asbuild the right kind of
technologies, the shipcompliance of the world, and you
have all these different,different tech solutions that
that basically help ensuringthat that everyone is is playing
(30:41):
on, playing on the right youknow the an even playing field
and and following those.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Some of the rules to me are still just mind boggling.
Them that are like countyspecific or even, like you know,
certain dry zip codes.
It's.
It's crazy how tangled thisentire industry has gotten when
it comes to regulations around.
Who can like just consumerchoice?
The state controlled liquor?
(31:11):
Well, you know, like inPennsylvania, for example, where
every retailer is owned by thestate, or going even outside of
the US and Canada, or likeeverything is owned by the
country.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
And.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
I know, like when we're at Pro wine, you know the
Canadian buyer sort of walksaround as if he's this, this
king.
But quite literally he is likehe's the guy.
If you want your product tosell in Canada, you better make
sure that he not only likes you,but that he likes your product.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
It's just wild.
Yeah, it really is.
But you know a lot of thoselaws were written in the.
You know prohibition time inthe 20s might be time to dust
that off, and what do you mean?
Speaker 1 (31:55):
they're not.
They're not still applicable,you know 100 years later.
It's.
I was having a conversationwith somebody the other day
about how everything justhappened so much faster now and
like generations are usuallydefined, I think, in like 15 to
20 year windows and I'm olderGen Z and then you have younger
Gen Z and I am not even anywherenear what you know.
(32:18):
a 14 year old is like right whenit comes to quite when it comes
to quite literally anything,whether it's, you know,
technological savvy.
You know the words that I use.
When I talk, I feel like theydo.
I don't even speak English.
It's hard to keep up with them,and but the same can be said
for just e commerce over thepast couple of years as well.
(32:39):
Yeah, I think that's sort ofgiven the alcohol industry a
little bit of kick in the in theright direction.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Yeah, yeah, no, it's interesting because I was I'm a
millennial, so I but I still had, like I didn't have a cell
phone, I think, until I went tocollege, so it's like largely
grew up like digital, like stillstill knew how to use a pay
phone and then like landlines,so yeah, it's been, it's.
It's interesting to think thatyou know you have you know 21,
(33:07):
22, 23 years year olds that likeI have no clue of that, like of
that timeframe, like it's all.
They've all grown up purely,purely digital.
Yeah, yeah, it's something thatwe think about and I would say
that most, most of the times,our consumers aren't really in
that.
It's in that age group it'sprobably a little bit more,
until they get into their, youknow, above 25, 26 and our
(33:31):
average age is probably closerto about 50, because that's kind
of like what the wine buyer is.
But it is interesting to thinkabout like, okay, when we're
marketing towards that group,like what are you know, what are
the values that they, that theyhave, that we have to, that we
really have to, kind of that wehave to hone in on.
So it's very different than youknow, probably like my parents
(33:52):
generation who was, like you,locked in on a brand like no
matter what.
You just kept going to thatbrand over and over and I think
you saw a lot of brand loyaltywithin boomers and my my
perception at least.
This hasn't been quantified,but it feels like the level of
brand loyalty in a consumerproduct may not necessarily be
(34:14):
there for some of the, some ofthe younger generations.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Yeah, I think you know I hop over from brand to
brand all the time.
I got like maybe a couple thatI'm keyed in on, but for the
most part it's a little bit allover the place, and I think it's
just forcing companies to bemore innovative and to not be
stuck in their ways, which mightbe a good thing.
But I got one last question foryou here which ties back into a
(34:42):
little bit of our earlierdiscussions in the podcast
what's your, what's yourfavorite wine memory?
Speaker 2 (34:48):
wine favorite wine memory there's probably there's
always, like there's so manygood ones and then there's
probably so many that, like Ihave since since forgot as well
Drinking tonight.
If I had to pick a favoritewine memory, it might have been
(35:09):
the first time that there'sactually pretty recent, so I'll
pick this one.
I shouldn't say pretty recent.
A few years ago drink a bottleof solos.
So it was our head of wine atthe time knew that I'm a huge,
like huge champagne fan and hadjust got done with the trip over
(35:30):
over in and she had to likewrestle a bottle of solos, like
sample bottle from from them tobring to me because she had
always wanted me to try, trythis.
It was a solos in a Seattle.
It's like very different thanyou know than than a lot of the
other other champagne's outthere.
I just like this is for you,like you are, you drink this
(35:53):
when you don't drink with me,you just drink it when you know
a special time and I remember itwas had a bunch of friends over
for dinner and like I'd never,never even heard of it before
and we're showing everyone's.
Like you know, our head of winebrought this back.
She said I'm gonna love it.
(36:13):
She said it's so hard to find.
Like you know, like you rarelyget to drink this and like I
ended up pouring it out, pouringit for everyone.
And we're like sitting theredrinking like a little bit and
everyone's like, oh, it's good,I guess, but like you're looking
at everyone's faces andeveryone's like it's that thing
when someone tells you it'ssupposed to be good and then
you're not sure if you like itor not, so no one really says
(36:36):
anything, and we're just kind ofsitting there drinking and
everyone's glasses are kind ofgoing, going down and we keep
pouring out and like within,probably within like 30 minutes,
like we end up pouring out.
We pour everyone the bottlesgone and we like later look and
like what do you think of that?
They're like oh my God, thatwas like the best wine I've ever
had in my life.
But it was like right off thebat we were like actually
(36:58):
confused as to whether we likeit a lot and I think that was
like that showcases, like it wassuch a cool moment to see, like
how not only how that wineevolved, but that I don't know.
You can still like, you canstill be surprised, and ever
since then it's just like wetalk about how my budget stays.
(37:18):
You know the same, but fewerbottles is probably also too,
because anytime I can get myhands on a bottle of Salos, like
I'm grabbing it and I thoughtthat was like such a, such a
Interest.
It was like within 30 minutes,right, oh my god, how do we go
by like three or four more ofthose?
So I call my head, I says yeah,good luck, like Joe that you
like, our allocation we get islike six a year and since then I
(37:43):
always at least take three formyself.
It's the only the only timewhere, the only time where I
take a big portion of our, ofour allocation to something.
So that was that was.
That was a pretty fun one.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
Yeah, I found this wine and maybe I shouldn't
mention on this podcast becauseI don't want other people to
take all mine.
It's called quill Qi ll, notquilt, which is like the one
that you'll see everywhere, butit's.
They've got one at DiamondMountain and one of one of the
(38:17):
other ones that I'm forgetting,but super small production, and
I found it at At a restaurant inSan Diego and Like a born and
raised, like the steakhousethere and it was amazing and I
think it was like it wassomething some ridiculously low
production.
And I found it online.
(38:38):
I was able to like get like 24bottles and I just had my like
second to last one.
But that's the wine that I'vebeen using Without fail to
convert the non-wine drinkers orthe white wine drinkers,
because they're all like 2010,2011, 2012 and they are in their
(38:58):
perfect, like sweet spot fordrinking, where they still are
very, you know, fruit forward,but they've settled out a little
bit and, you know, in fiveyears They'll probably, you know
, not be, though they probablywon't be good, and but it's like
right, right in that perfectdrinking time, and so now I'm
not now I'm on the hunt for more, but they, literally they don't
even reply to me.
I've reached out like a thousandtimes on their website.
(39:19):
You can't order online.
Like what the hell is going onhere?
I'm gonna fly there.
Actually, I'll be in Sonoma inlike a month.
Maybe I'll go track them downand be like listen, I need it
more of your wine.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
It's like knocking.
You're like, let me.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
Yeah, seriously, I'll build you a Shopify website for
free and help you figure outyour direct to consumer presence
, if you just give me a case ayear.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
Yeah, I'll do it for super cheap.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
Yeah, exactly.
Well, thank you so much for forjoining me today, but before we
hop off, can you let everybodyknow where they can find you and
wine access online?
Speaker 2 (39:55):
Yeah, absolutely so, so easy at wwwwineaccesscom.
So super, super simple.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
We love that.
Drinkscom makes it prettysimple too.
Speaker 2 (40:08):
You're even, that's even easier.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
Yes, I have to repeat it though, because people are
like what's your email?
And I'm like Brandon atdrinkscom and they're like what
my god?
Drinkscom like the drink like?
Oh okay, yeah, that is easy.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
It's all.
It's too easy that it justdoesn't like it.
It's like they can't be thecase.
Someone else must have thatdomain.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
Exactly, exactly.
Well, thank you everybody forlistening.
As always, this is BrandonMoroso and you can find me at
drinkscom.
We will see you next time.
Thanks for coming out.
Thanks, brandon.
Popular Podcasts
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
Introducing… Aubrey O’Day Diddy’s former protege, television personality, platinum selling music artist, Danity Kane alum Aubrey O’Day joins veteran journalists Amy Robach and TJ Holmes to provide a unique perspective on the trial that has captivated the attention of the nation. Join them throughout the trial as they discuss, debate, and dissect every detail, every aspect of the proceedings. Aubrey will offer her opinions and expertise, as only she is qualified to do given her first-hand knowledge. From her days on Making the Band, as she emerged as the breakout star, the truth of the situation would be the opposite of the glitz and glamour. Listen throughout every minute of the trial, for this exclusive coverage. Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial, an iHeartRadio podcast.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy And Charlamagne Tha God!