January 15, 2025 • 23 mins
Can relentless advocacy truly shape the future of marijuana legislation? Join us on the Drug Report podcast as we explore the recent triumph in New Hampshire, where the unwavering efforts of advocates have led Governor Kelly Ayotte to promise a veto on any future marijuana legalization attempts. This victory shines a light on the power of persistence in the ever-evolving landscape of drug policy. As we navigate through these pivotal changes, we're also dissecting the challenges faced by the marijuana industry in New York, revealing how initial promises of social equity have not been fulfilled, leaving many equity applicants in financial distress. Kevin Sabet's op-ed adds a critical perspective to our discussion, emphasizing the widening gap between wealthy investors and disenfranchised communities.
Our conversation takes a crucial turn as we tackle issues surrounding medical marijuana prescriptions, drawing comparisons to the opioid crisis of the 1990s. How can we ensure patient safety when a small group of doctors dominates the recommendation landscape? We're also looking at the ongoing efforts in Florida to legalize marijuana and the strategic legislative initiatives being considered by the new Congress. Randy's resolution serves as a cornerstone in raising awareness about the risks of high-potency THC, reflecting a broader strategic approach to drug policy reform and patient protection.
Federal marijuana legalization remains a hot topic, with the complexities of state and federal enforcement at the forefront. We address the urgent need for Congress to empower the DOJ in regulating marijuana sales near schools, while also examining the emerging debate around Delta 8, especially as companies like DoorDash enter the market. The unexpected halt in the marijuana rescheduling process due to an industry-filed motion has opened the door for broader scrutiny and discussion. President Trump's ambiguous remarks about the Safe Banking Act add another layer of uncertainty, as we acknowledge the collaborative efforts of advocates striving to navigate these challenging waters. Join us as we break down these pressing issues and stay informed on the latest developments.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Yes or no?
Do you believe nicotine is notaddictive?
Speaker 2 (00:02):
I believe nicotine is not addictive.
Yes, Congressman, cigarettesand nicotine clearly do not meet
the classic definitions ofaddiction.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
I don't believe that nicotine for our products are
addictive.
I believe nicotine is notaddictive.
Happy New Year, everyone.
Welcome back to the Drug Reportpodcast.
It's been a little while.
We're thankful to all of youfor continuing to listen and
support all of our content thatwe are pushing out from SAM and
FDPS, the organizations thathelp make this podcast possible.
I'm Luke DeFerratis, your host,and today I am joined again by
(00:35):
our illustrious team member andfriend and just all around great
guy, jordan Davidson, who isgoing to give us a federal
update in just a little bit,kind of give us some the big
picture, kind of what we areexpecting, what we're watching
and working on in this newCongress.
So, jordan, welcome.
Thank you, luke.
So before we get to that, though, I do want to hit on some of
(00:57):
the big news that we aretracking right now here, at the
outset of 2025.
So right now we're reallyexcited.
We just got news from NewHampshire that, for those of you
who were watching New Hampshirelast year, you know it was
tight.
Governor Sununu, who has been alongtime ally and friend of
ours and very opposed tocommercializing marijuana,
(01:19):
flipped his position forwhatever reason, and things
looked really dire.
For whatever reason, and thingslooked really dire.
Our advocates worked acrossboth parties.
They worked to all hours of thenight and in the 11th hour.
They were able to secure a hugevictory in defeating
legalization last year in NewHampshire and we were not
predicted to win that, so it wasa big win.
(01:40):
And now, here at the outset ofthe new session, with a new
governor now Governor KellyAyotte in New Hampshire who has
promised to veto and opposemarijuana legalization in the
state.
Now we have the House Speaker,who is in support of
legalization, saying theyprobably won't even pick up the
marijuana issue again foranother decade.
That was his words.
(02:00):
So that is a huge win and itshows how important advocacy is,
because you keep fighting and Ithink a lot of people think
well, you know, they're justgoing to be back next year,
we're just going to.
You know it'll come eventually.
You hear those refrains and thisis just a great sign of how
that's not true.
You have to outlast youropponents, and so kudos to Bill
Lutie and Sue Hamola and DebNaro and all the other people in
(02:23):
New Hampshire who have workedso hard to achieve this.
It's just got to feel fantasticto have the House Speaker
making a statement like we'renot going to pick this issue up
for a decade.
I mean, you never hear thatright, Jordan.
Have you ever heard that made,whether the federal or the state
level?
Speaker 2 (02:39):
I have never heard that before, Luke, and it was
certainly hope inspiring for us.
And you know, I think this iskind of part of what I see, at
least as a broader trend of it'sbeing increasingly difficult
and we saw this in November forkind of new states to legalize
(03:01):
marijuana.
And so in terms of like the30,000 foot path forward, both
federally and at the state level, I see a lot of momentum
stopping, slowing down for thelegalization industry and I see
at the same time an increase inboth the mainstream media and
just kind of your everydayaverage American and average
family and increased awarenessabout the dangers of high
(03:22):
potency marijuana.
And I think that combination islethal for the marijuana
industry and a shot in the armfor us because we can finally
start to enact strongerregulations, kind of like roll,
the kind of tie back on thelegalization movement.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
And yeah just beginning.
I agree, I agree.
So that's fantastic news.
We couldn't wait to share thatwith you.
We're also watching in otherstates, so in New York, many of
you hopefully have seen KevinSabet, our CEO, his recent op-ed
in the Buffalo News, where hetalks about the fact that.
So right now you have asituation where one of the
(04:00):
legalization bill sponsors inNew York the legalization bill
sponsors in New York who led thefight for legalization said
this would be a boon for socialequity.
It would return money andopportunity to disenfranchised
black and brown communities.
You know she is now calling onmore taxpayer dollars to be
given to bail out equityapplicants in the marijuana
(04:23):
industry there in New York whothey've taken these various
loans.
They're defaulting on the loansbecause the costs of business
have exceeded what theyestimated.
They're getting basically forlack of a better word screwed in
getting into business in themarijuana industry, and now
she's calling for more taxpayerdollars to be poured into this.
And this is something that isnot a surprise.
(04:45):
Our organization, when fightingthis fight in New York in 2017,
18, 19, 20, we warned that thiswould happen.
That legalization was actuallyabout corporations and people
who already had money to getinto the business.
That those who are coming intothis and they've never been in
business before, they do nothave all the advantages of being
a wealthy white investor fromSilicon Valley or Wall Street.
(05:09):
They are not going to be ableto thrive in this, in that
environment, that this billwould not bring about justice,
and so his op-ed in the Buffalonews last week talks about that.
I encourage you to read it.
Jordan, I don't know if youhave anything you wanted to add
to that.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Yeah, no, I mean, it's just like you know.
I've seen comments from, Ithink, representative or like
people Stokes, who led this,just kind of utter shock almost
at some of the stuff that hasn'tworked out as was envisioned,
and it's like it feels likeGroundhog Day for us, luke.
This happens time and timeagain.
If only you know, when you goto states, people's claim that
(05:45):
they're bringing in experts fromother states to see what
they've done, but oftentimesit's people who are very biased.
If only these states actuallybrought in people who are on the
ground and seeing the impact ofthis, maybe some things could
be prevented.
But they haven't seemed tocatch on.
They can't say they weren'twarned, they certainly cannot
say that they were not warned.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
So those are some big news items.
The last thing I wanted tohighlight and all this will be
(06:26):
fleshed out even more in thenewsletter that's going to hit
were involved in very nefariousbusiness dealings former drug
dealers, former federal convicts, who had lost their licenses,
had them reinstated.
Those were the primary doctorsinvolved in this quote unquote
medical marijuana program inPennsylvania and that story just
continues to unfold.
It's like they keep going backto the well and finding more
information.
So the latest on that story andthis is in our newsletter
(06:48):
they're reporting inPennsylvania that only a handful
of their doctors in the stateapproved one third of all of the
medical pot cards in a singleyear.
And so that says you knowexperts are questioning the
quality of care.
So you literally have a handful, so just a few doctors who are
providing tens of thousands, ifnot more, of these medical cards
(07:10):
granting access to thesemarijuana products under the
guise of medicine.
And remember that they're notprescribed.
There's no dosage, there's norefills, there's no
contraindications, there's nowarnings, there's no, there's
nothing that gives any guidance.
It's just a card that says youcan go buy marijuana and the
marijuana is the same marijuanayou can buy in a recreational
store.
So it is just astonishing thatthis continues.
(07:33):
There's a lot of talk at theCapitol We've been working in
Harrisburg for quite some timeand there's a lot of talk about
what to do about it andobviously the industry doesn't
want to do anything about it.
But for those who care aboutmedicine and those who care
about patient safety, these areconcerns that we think are
eventually going to get heard atthe Capitol there.
So important to understand thatthis is also not exclusive to
(07:53):
Pennsylvania, this issue of ahandful of doctors providing
most of the prescriptions.
It was actually widelydocumented that in Oklahoma, one
doctor provided, I think, morethan 20% of all their
prescriptions or, excuse me,recommendations.
Florida.
This dynamic is at play InColorado.
Less than a fraction of 1% ofthe doctors in Colorado provide
(08:14):
medical marijuanarecommendations.
So we're talking about a smallnumber of physicians who
actually will participate inthis and, as the Pennsylvania
reporting indicates, that subsetof the physician population is
not exactly the subset of thephysician population that's
getting Doctor of the Year awardfrom the American Medical
Association.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Right, yeah, yeah Look just to chime in on this,
like when this story first cameout.
I've said this to our teaminternally.
When this story first came out,I think it was the most
upsetting story that I had seenin our field in the over five
years that I've worked in drugpolicy, and this is one thing I
(09:22):
say this is the hill I'll die onthat I is based off of selling
one single drug to as manypeople as possible in quick
appointments for whateverillness or ailment they claim to
present.
That's how people got addictedto opioids in the 1990s.
That's just what happened.
I don't see the difference here.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
And how did they track those doctors who were
prescribing all of the OxyContin?
They, they they tracked who wasprescribing the most, who was.
They weren't prescribing othermedications and all this money
was coming in the door.
It didn't make sense.
And it's this you're exactlyright.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
And and and not even that.
It's like you know, we talkabout big tobacco, right, and we
say this is the new big tobaccoand then we say literally right
, because big tobacco isactually investing in this
industry, this is the pill mills.
Literally, because if you readthese reports, some of the
doctors who are engaged in thosebusinesses selling opioids who
(10:14):
went to prison, like you said,like they did that for opioids
and for even like illicitmethadone clinics and things
that weren't regulated, thatthey were just handing out.
It's the same doctors.
So I don't see a differencehere and it's very upsetting to
me.
I think it's a disgrace to thekind of name of medicine.
It is.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
It absolutely is so great.
So just wanted to touch onthose headlines.
And again, 2025 is off to areally rocking start.
Florida, the safe and I thinkit's called safe and secure
Florida.
The ballot campaign to legalizemarijuana that lost after
spending 150 million last yearand the gigantic tidal wave
victory we had in Florida there,they have now refiled and
(10:52):
they're planning to startsignature gathering to bring
legalization to Florida again.
So that fight is starting to,you know, this very nation.
At this stage, we'll see ifthey can even raise the money,
if they can even put up areasonable effort.
It'll take a lot, so we'll see.
But states are starting to pickup these issues and we will
continue to track them andprovide you analysis and
guidance.
And so, with that, I reallywant to talk about this new
(11:15):
Congress.
We have Jordan, this newadministration.
We have Jordan, this newadministration we have.
What are we watching?
What are you seeing?
What are you hearing?
Obviously, things change by theminute there at the Capitol.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
But what's the outlook?
Yeah, I think the outlook isreally really good for us, Luke.
I think we have a really uniqueopportunity to go on offense,
and we've really laid thegroundwork for doing so even in
the last Congress.
And so, on the one hand, rightlike there are kind of two
buckets here, things that we'vealready begun working on, and
then new initiatives that we canlaunch this year.
(11:50):
So, whether it's standalonebills like Randy's resolution,
which is a bill that we hadintroduced, that we helped write
to raise awareness about highpotency THC and the negative
mental and physical healthimpacts that's getting
reintroduced.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
And that's named after Randy Backus Jr.
The Packers family for those ofyou who know them lost their
son to cause from high potencymarijuana, so that was really
important to put his name onthis and place a face to this
tragedy that's happening allacross the country.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Yeah.
So you know things like thatand you know other things like
appropriations provisions forgovernment funding, that we've
kind of gotten across the finishline.
You know some really keyexamples.
We one of the most interestingareas has been allowing the DOJ
to really enforce federal lawsthat Congress has for the past
(12:40):
decade kind of prevented themfrom enforcing.
Regarding marijuanalegalization specifically
selling marijuana near schoolsRight, some of these
dispensaries in states arebreaking federal law allowing
the sale of controlledsubstances within, well within a
thousand feet of a school zone.
So there are dispensariespopping up right across the
street from elementary schools.
I mean, that's terrible for thedevelopment of young people and
(13:02):
their education, and so we hadsomething in both the House and
the Senate to kind of tacklethis issue and arm the DOJ with
the kind of ammunition they needfrom Congress to actually
confront this problem.
That's something that we'll becarrying into, among many other
things, into 2025.
Additionally, the Delta 8 fightis going to be a really
(13:24):
important one.
Some people may know the farmbill got extended last Congress,
just several weeks ago, into2025.
So they have kind of two dates.
Part of it expires in September, part of it expires at the very
end of this year.
But I think we're going to havea lot of time to really work on
this and fingers crossed likeI'll say this knocking on wood,
(13:46):
because I don't want to make aprediction and then be just
totally wrong, so don't hold meto it completely but I have a
gut feeling and just my head andmy heart says that I think
we're going to get this donethis year.
And when you say get this done,you mean we're going to close
the Delta A.
Yes, we're going to close theDelta A.
Stop using toxicants from beingsold.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Stop using toxicants, yeah, and that's especially
important because DoorDash, oneof the top app delivery
companies, just announcedthey're going to get involved in
delivering hemp-derived THC andCBD products to places where
they allow these products to besold and consumed.
So there are big players nowthat are starting to wade into
(14:24):
this federal gray area that aretaking on that risk, and
Congress is very close toclosing the loophole.
We're going to make sure theydo so.
We are going to be warningthese companies to stay
completely hands-off of theseproducts.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Yeah, so that's kind of another thing that we're
continuously working on.
I think another thing thatcomes to mind is just like we
need to take advantage of thelandscape that we have to raise
awareness among members ofCongress about these issues and
really have kind of a launch padto actually open up discussions
(14:56):
, whether it's about the healthimpacts of discussions, whether
it's about the health impacts ofmarijuana, whether it's about
the influence of China and theCCP in kind of taking advantage
of state legalization to set upthese illicit marijuana grow
farms, you know, whether it'smarijuana impaired driving.
To have hearings right, we'vealready been in discussions with
certain congressionalcommittees in the House and the
Senate about having hearings,and people are really open and
(15:19):
optimistic about schedulingthings to discuss these kind of
relevant issues, and so I'mreally encouraged by that.
Two other just quick, briefthings to discuss Another little
idea that we're working on is anew initiative you know there's
some really terrible adsactually out of sponsored by
department of transportationthat is absolutely abysmal.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Tell people what they are.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Tell people what they are so basically these are ads
from NHSTA, which is likehighway safety so yeah, highway
safety association and they'rebasically taxpayer funded,
taxpayer funded.
Encouraging people to usemarijuana, saying you know,
don't blaze your own path, justdon't drive high.
So basically like use all themarijuana you want, but just try
(16:04):
not to do it while you'redriving.
Encouraging people as a way ofpreventing stone driving,
getting delivery, orderingillegal drug deliveries using
these illicit services.
That should not be advocated bythe federal government.
So that's just abysmal.
(16:26):
And so trying to do somethingthat's already been raised to
the inspector general ofDepartment of Transportation we
got that in a hearing raised byRepresentative Ben Klein from
Virginia, who was great on thatissue and looking forward to
working with him.
Who's an appropriator more thisyear on that?
Um.
And finally I think you know,luke, I don't know what you want
to share discuss um withrescheduling.
I think you know that's on alot of people's minds.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Um, but going, going through that process uh where
that pans out and kind of, yeah,well, I mean, the industry is
really kind of basically justimplement.
You know, they just pulled offone of the biggest self-owns in
the history of self-owns.
I mean, you, you have, uh,village farms, I think is what
(17:07):
they're called, and it's amarijuana industry.
You know company, and they havefiled an interlocutory appeal
excuse me, interlocutory motionthat basically has stopped the
entire rescheduling process,caused the administrative law
judge to cancel all.
We had weeks of proceedingsscheduled.
(17:29):
We had gone through all thescheduling, all the testimony,
everything was set for all ofthe parties that were going to
participate in these historichearings on the rescheduling of
marijuana, and their motion hasstopped everything completely
dead in its tracks.
It's been canceled, it's beencanceled and it's indefinitely
canceled.
So we don't know when thesewill be picked back up.
(17:49):
The DA administrator is goingto, I guess, consider their
motion is my understanding andreally we have no idea what's
going to happen from here, butit's just astonishing that they
would do this Now.
Everything is in limbo as a newadministration is taking office
and we don't know what the Trumpadministration has planned.
But with something like this,it's kind of wide open to say
(18:11):
well, you know this has beenkind of a mess.
You know, hhs completelyinvented new protocols and
procedures that have no basis inlaw, no precedent.
There was a complete bunglingof the process from a political
perspective when it was supposedto be scientific.
There's a lot of reasons tojust call these hearings off,
and so they provided a reallygreat additional reason to do
that.
So I guess, hats off to theindustry for this.
(18:32):
I mean, unless there'ssomething we're really missing
on the strategy here, jordan, Idon't know, maybe you can clue
me in, but we're feeling happyabout that and we'll see, kind
of, what the future holds interms of this process.
I mean, we'll be learning asthe public learns.
(18:59):
Yeah, yeah, nothing, nothingreally to contribute, definitely
yeah, I will say you yeah, yeah, nothing really to contribute,
definitely honest.
I mean, obviously rescheduling.
People say, oh, you know whywould he implement, president
Biden, implement rescheduling?
But you know, as we've talkedabout a lot on this podcast, if
marijuana is rescheduled tothree, it remains completely
(19:20):
illegal.
The entire marijuana industryis completely out of compliance.
So you know we're talking aboutan administration that stuck to
its guns on not legalizingmarijuana.
We're talking about a Congressthat we were told, you know,
with the Senate majority leadertaking the historic stand on
saying, you know, safe bankingact, marijuana banking
legalization is going to be atop priority.
We were told that this was adone deal, and none of that
(19:41):
happened.
So you know we had a verystrikingly successful session
last session, and so it justshows you it doesn't matter
who's in power.
There's common sense on bothsides that can help win the day,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
And one thing to add that I kind of forgot in the
federal overview, luke, that Ithink is important to mention is
just like what the newpolitical kind of dynamic looks
like for us, actual like thekind of pieces on the chessboard
.
So you know, obviously you knowthings we don't know about the
executive branch exactly what'sgoing to happen.
Look, pam Bondi, who's goingthrough her confirmation
hearings right now, has beenreally great on this issue in
(20:17):
the past, so that's kind of likea check.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
We've got a great picture that says don't legalize
pot from her efforts to stopmedical marijuana, so we're very
happy about that we're veryhappy about that.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
So then the House and the Senate, right.
So taking the House, you knowMike Johnson was elected speaker
again.
Mike Johnson is firmly againstthis.
Steve Scalise remains thenumber two member of the House
firmly against this In reallypowerful committees.
Take the Rules Committee, whichis kind of like able to stop
almost anything.
It's kind of the gateway, likethe gatekeeper from House
(20:53):
committees and bills that arepassed to the House floor and
what's voted on.
Representative Virginia Fox wasjust elected, or just placed,
as the chairwoman of the RulesCommittee.
She has an A-plus voting recordby our standard, and Thomas
Massey and Guy Reschenthaler,who were two of the most
pro-marijuana members of thatcommittee, have been taken off
that committee.
(21:14):
So that's really great for us.
And then hopping kind of over tothe Senate.
You know, if you look at, theSenate kind of is broken up, I
think, into really some factions.
And in the Senate majority'sleaders race you had three main
candidates.
You had John Thune who ended upwinning, you had John Corden
who got second place and you hadRick Scott who kind of was
(21:34):
third.
And if you look at all three ofthose candidates leading their
factions, they all split up ashare of the votes.
John Thune, who won, is firmlyagainst marijuana.
He signed a letter that wehelped write against
rescheduling, spoken to him inperson about this issue.
He believes in our fight.
John Cornyn is one of the moreactive members on the marijuana
issue, very knowledgeable aboutit and really strongly against
(21:57):
everything.
And Rick Scott even though hegot last place in the race he
still kind of represents a voicefor a faction of these
Republicans.
And Rick Scott is firmlyagainst all of this as well.
He lost his brother to drugproblems and so he kind of finds
his opposition based inpersonal family experience from
really the heart.
So I think that's a reallyencouraging sign for us as well,
(22:19):
and so I think the legalizersare going to have a really tough
playing field in the newCongress and I think it's going
to be great for us.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
It's fantastic Well, lots to look forward to.
Obviously, it's not allsunshine and roses.
There's challenges along theway.
Eventually, this reschedulingprocess will sort itself out and
we'll have to have a conclusionto these hearings.
We'll have to have some sort ofrule or something promulgated
from that, so we're definitelygoing to be needing your help
with that.
Also, the industry was verysuccessful in getting a number
(22:52):
of Republicans, particularly inthe Senate, on board with Safe
Banking Act.
President Trump, on the campaigntrail, made some kind of vague
remarks about potentiallysupporting the Safe Banking Act
or something of that nature.
Whether that exists now underhis administration we don't know
.
We'll have to see.
But there are definitelychallenges along the way and we
will be again tracking andworking on that along with all
(23:14):
of you, and so many of ourlisteners are advocates who are
working very hard at the stateand local level as well as at
the federal level.
We thank you for that and wewill keep you posted on that.
Jordan, thank you for joiningme on the podcast today.
To all of you who listen, anynew listeners, anyone who hasn't
done this yet please leave us afive-star rating and review.
We really appreciate that, andhave a absolutely wonderful rest
(23:35):
of your week.
Yes or no?
Do you believe nicotine is notaddictive?
Speaker 2 (00:02):
I believe nicotine is not addictive.
Yes, Congressman, cigarettesand nicotine clearly do not meet
the classic definitions ofaddiction.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
I don't believe that nicotine for our products are
addictive.
I believe nicotine is notaddictive.
Happy New Year, everyone.
Welcome back to the Drug Reportpodcast.
It's been a little while.
We're thankful to all of youfor continuing to listen and
support all of our content thatwe are pushing out from SAM and
FDPS, the organizations thathelp make this podcast possible.
I'm Luke DeFerratis, your host,and today I am joined again by
(00:35):
our illustrious team member andfriend and just all around great
guy, jordan Davidson, who isgoing to give us a federal
update in just a little bit,kind of give us some the big
picture, kind of what we areexpecting, what we're watching
and working on in this newCongress.
So, jordan, welcome.
Thank you, luke.
So before we get to that, though, I do want to hit on some of
(00:57):
the big news that we aretracking right now here, at the
outset of 2025.
So right now we're reallyexcited.
We just got news from NewHampshire that, for those of you
who were watching New Hampshirelast year, you know it was
tight.
Governor Sununu, who has been alongtime ally and friend of
ours and very opposed tocommercializing marijuana,
(01:19):
flipped his position forwhatever reason, and things
looked really dire.
For whatever reason, and thingslooked really dire.
Our advocates worked acrossboth parties.
They worked to all hours of thenight and in the 11th hour.
They were able to secure a hugevictory in defeating
legalization last year in NewHampshire and we were not
predicted to win that, so it wasa big win.
(01:40):
And now, here at the outset ofthe new session, with a new
governor now Governor KellyAyotte in New Hampshire who has
promised to veto and opposemarijuana legalization in the
state.
Now we have the House Speaker,who is in support of
legalization, saying theyprobably won't even pick up the
marijuana issue again foranother decade.
That was his words.
(02:00):
So that is a huge win and itshows how important advocacy is,
because you keep fighting and Ithink a lot of people think
well, you know, they're justgoing to be back next year,
we're just going to.
You know it'll come eventually.
You hear those refrains and thisis just a great sign of how
that's not true.
You have to outlast youropponents, and so kudos to Bill
Lutie and Sue Hamola and DebNaro and all the other people in
(02:23):
New Hampshire who have workedso hard to achieve this.
It's just got to feel fantasticto have the House Speaker
making a statement like we'renot going to pick this issue up
for a decade.
I mean, you never hear thatright, Jordan.
Have you ever heard that made,whether the federal or the state
level?
Speaker 2 (02:39):
I have never heard that before, Luke, and it was
certainly hope inspiring for us.
And you know, I think this iskind of part of what I see, at
least as a broader trend of it'sbeing increasingly difficult
and we saw this in November forkind of new states to legalize
(03:01):
marijuana.
And so in terms of like the30,000 foot path forward, both
federally and at the state level, I see a lot of momentum
stopping, slowing down for thelegalization industry and I see
at the same time an increase inboth the mainstream media and
just kind of your everydayaverage American and average
family and increased awarenessabout the dangers of high
(03:22):
potency marijuana.
And I think that combination islethal for the marijuana
industry and a shot in the armfor us because we can finally
start to enact strongerregulations, kind of like roll,
the kind of tie back on thelegalization movement.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
And yeah just beginning.
I agree, I agree.
So that's fantastic news.
We couldn't wait to share thatwith you.
We're also watching in otherstates, so in New York, many of
you hopefully have seen KevinSabet, our CEO, his recent op-ed
in the Buffalo News, where hetalks about the fact that.
So right now you have asituation where one of the
(04:00):
legalization bill sponsors inNew York the legalization bill
sponsors in New York who led thefight for legalization said
this would be a boon for socialequity.
It would return money andopportunity to disenfranchised
black and brown communities.
You know she is now calling onmore taxpayer dollars to be
given to bail out equityapplicants in the marijuana
(04:23):
industry there in New York whothey've taken these various
loans.
They're defaulting on the loansbecause the costs of business
have exceeded what theyestimated.
They're getting basically forlack of a better word screwed in
getting into business in themarijuana industry, and now
she's calling for more taxpayerdollars to be poured into this.
And this is something that isnot a surprise.
(04:45):
Our organization, when fightingthis fight in New York in 2017,
18, 19, 20, we warned that thiswould happen.
That legalization was actuallyabout corporations and people
who already had money to getinto the business.
That those who are coming intothis and they've never been in
business before, they do nothave all the advantages of being
a wealthy white investor fromSilicon Valley or Wall Street.
(05:09):
They are not going to be ableto thrive in this, in that
environment, that this billwould not bring about justice,
and so his op-ed in the Buffalonews last week talks about that.
I encourage you to read it.
Jordan, I don't know if youhave anything you wanted to add
to that.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Yeah, no, I mean, it's just like you know.
I've seen comments from, Ithink, representative or like
people Stokes, who led this,just kind of utter shock almost
at some of the stuff that hasn'tworked out as was envisioned,
and it's like it feels likeGroundhog Day for us, luke.
This happens time and timeagain.
If only you know, when you goto states, people's claim that
(05:45):
they're bringing in experts fromother states to see what
they've done, but oftentimesit's people who are very biased.
If only these states actuallybrought in people who are on the
ground and seeing the impact ofthis, maybe some things could
be prevented.
But they haven't seemed tocatch on.
They can't say they weren'twarned, they certainly cannot
say that they were not warned.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
So those are some big news items.
The last thing I wanted tohighlight and all this will be
(06:26):
fleshed out even more in thenewsletter that's going to hit
were involved in very nefariousbusiness dealings former drug
dealers, former federal convicts, who had lost their licenses,
had them reinstated.
Those were the primary doctorsinvolved in this quote unquote
medical marijuana program inPennsylvania and that story just
continues to unfold.
It's like they keep going backto the well and finding more
information.
So the latest on that story andthis is in our newsletter
(06:48):
they're reporting inPennsylvania that only a handful
of their doctors in the stateapproved one third of all of the
medical pot cards in a singleyear.
And so that says you knowexperts are questioning the
quality of care.
So you literally have a handful, so just a few doctors who are
providing tens of thousands, ifnot more, of these medical cards
(07:10):
granting access to thesemarijuana products under the
guise of medicine.
And remember that they're notprescribed.
There's no dosage, there's norefills, there's no
contraindications, there's nowarnings, there's no, there's
nothing that gives any guidance.
It's just a card that says youcan go buy marijuana and the
marijuana is the same marijuanayou can buy in a recreational
store.
So it is just astonishing thatthis continues.
(07:33):
There's a lot of talk at theCapitol We've been working in
Harrisburg for quite some timeand there's a lot of talk about
what to do about it andobviously the industry doesn't
want to do anything about it.
But for those who care aboutmedicine and those who care
about patient safety, these areconcerns that we think are
eventually going to get heard atthe Capitol there.
So important to understand thatthis is also not exclusive to
(07:53):
Pennsylvania, this issue of ahandful of doctors providing
most of the prescriptions.
It was actually widelydocumented that in Oklahoma, one
doctor provided, I think, morethan 20% of all their
prescriptions or, excuse me,recommendations.
Florida.
This dynamic is at play InColorado.
Less than a fraction of 1% ofthe doctors in Colorado provide
(08:14):
medical marijuanarecommendations.
So we're talking about a smallnumber of physicians who
actually will participate inthis and, as the Pennsylvania
reporting indicates, that subsetof the physician population is
not exactly the subset of thephysician population that's
getting Doctor of the Year awardfrom the American Medical
Association.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Right, yeah, yeah Look just to chime in on this,
like when this story first cameout.
I've said this to our teaminternally.
When this story first came out,I think it was the most
upsetting story that I had seenin our field in the over five
years that I've worked in drugpolicy, and this is one thing I
(09:22):
say this is the hill I'll die onthat I is based off of selling
one single drug to as manypeople as possible in quick
appointments for whateverillness or ailment they claim to
present.
That's how people got addictedto opioids in the 1990s.
That's just what happened.
I don't see the difference here.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
And how did they track those doctors who were
prescribing all of the OxyContin?
They, they they tracked who wasprescribing the most, who was.
They weren't prescribing othermedications and all this money
was coming in the door.
It didn't make sense.
And it's this you're exactlyright.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
And and and not even that.
It's like you know, we talkabout big tobacco, right, and we
say this is the new big tobaccoand then we say literally right
, because big tobacco isactually investing in this
industry, this is the pill mills.
Literally, because if you readthese reports, some of the
doctors who are engaged in thosebusinesses selling opioids who
(10:14):
went to prison, like you said,like they did that for opioids
and for even like illicitmethadone clinics and things
that weren't regulated, thatthey were just handing out.
It's the same doctors.
So I don't see a differencehere and it's very upsetting to
me.
I think it's a disgrace to thekind of name of medicine.
It is.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
It absolutely is so great.
So just wanted to touch onthose headlines.
And again, 2025 is off to areally rocking start.
Florida, the safe and I thinkit's called safe and secure
Florida.
The ballot campaign to legalizemarijuana that lost after
spending 150 million last yearand the gigantic tidal wave
victory we had in Florida there,they have now refiled and
(10:52):
they're planning to startsignature gathering to bring
legalization to Florida again.
So that fight is starting to,you know, this very nation.
At this stage, we'll see ifthey can even raise the money,
if they can even put up areasonable effort.
It'll take a lot, so we'll see.
But states are starting to pickup these issues and we will
continue to track them andprovide you analysis and
guidance.
And so, with that, I reallywant to talk about this new
(11:15):
Congress.
We have Jordan, this newadministration.
We have Jordan, this newadministration we have.
What are we watching?
What are you seeing?
What are you hearing?
Obviously, things change by theminute there at the Capitol.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
But what's the outlook?
Yeah, I think the outlook isreally really good for us, Luke.
I think we have a really uniqueopportunity to go on offense,
and we've really laid thegroundwork for doing so even in
the last Congress.
And so, on the one hand, rightlike there are kind of two
buckets here, things that we'vealready begun working on, and
then new initiatives that we canlaunch this year.
(11:50):
So, whether it's standalonebills like Randy's resolution,
which is a bill that we hadintroduced, that we helped write
to raise awareness about highpotency THC and the negative
mental and physical healthimpacts that's getting
reintroduced.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
And that's named after Randy Backus Jr.
The Packers family for those ofyou who know them lost their
son to cause from high potencymarijuana, so that was really
important to put his name onthis and place a face to this
tragedy that's happening allacross the country.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Yeah.
So you know things like thatand you know other things like
appropriations provisions forgovernment funding, that we've
kind of gotten across the finishline.
You know some really keyexamples.
We one of the most interestingareas has been allowing the DOJ
to really enforce federal lawsthat Congress has for the past
(12:40):
decade kind of prevented themfrom enforcing.
Regarding marijuanalegalization specifically
selling marijuana near schoolsRight, some of these
dispensaries in states arebreaking federal law allowing
the sale of controlledsubstances within, well within a
thousand feet of a school zone.
So there are dispensariespopping up right across the
street from elementary schools.
I mean, that's terrible for thedevelopment of young people and
(13:02):
their education, and so we hadsomething in both the House and
the Senate to kind of tacklethis issue and arm the DOJ with
the kind of ammunition they needfrom Congress to actually
confront this problem.
That's something that we'll becarrying into, among many other
things, into 2025.
Additionally, the Delta 8 fightis going to be a really
(13:24):
important one.
Some people may know the farmbill got extended last Congress,
just several weeks ago, into2025.
So they have kind of two dates.
Part of it expires in September, part of it expires at the very
end of this year.
But I think we're going to havea lot of time to really work on
this and fingers crossed likeI'll say this knocking on wood,
(13:46):
because I don't want to make aprediction and then be just
totally wrong, so don't hold meto it completely but I have a
gut feeling and just my head andmy heart says that I think
we're going to get this donethis year.
And when you say get this done,you mean we're going to close
the Delta A.
Yes, we're going to close theDelta A.
Stop using toxicants from beingsold.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Stop using toxicants, yeah, and that's especially
important because DoorDash, oneof the top app delivery
companies, just announcedthey're going to get involved in
delivering hemp-derived THC andCBD products to places where
they allow these products to besold and consumed.
So there are big players nowthat are starting to wade into
(14:24):
this federal gray area that aretaking on that risk, and
Congress is very close toclosing the loophole.
We're going to make sure theydo so.
We are going to be warningthese companies to stay
completely hands-off of theseproducts.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Yeah, so that's kind of another thing that we're
continuously working on.
I think another thing thatcomes to mind is just like we
need to take advantage of thelandscape that we have to raise
awareness among members ofCongress about these issues and
really have kind of a launch padto actually open up discussions
(14:56):
, whether it's about the healthimpacts of discussions, whether
it's about the health impacts ofmarijuana, whether it's about
the influence of China and theCCP in kind of taking advantage
of state legalization to set upthese illicit marijuana grow
farms, you know, whether it'smarijuana impaired driving.
To have hearings right, we'vealready been in discussions with
certain congressionalcommittees in the House and the
Senate about having hearings,and people are really open and
(15:19):
optimistic about schedulingthings to discuss these kind of
relevant issues, and so I'mreally encouraged by that.
Two other just quick, briefthings to discuss Another little
idea that we're working on is anew initiative you know there's
some really terrible adsactually out of sponsored by
department of transportationthat is absolutely abysmal.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Tell people what they are.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Tell people what they are so basically these are ads
from NHSTA, which is likehighway safety so yeah, highway
safety association and they'rebasically taxpayer funded,
taxpayer funded.
Encouraging people to usemarijuana, saying you know,
don't blaze your own path, justdon't drive high.
So basically like use all themarijuana you want, but just try
(16:04):
not to do it while you'redriving.
Encouraging people as a way ofpreventing stone driving,
getting delivery, orderingillegal drug deliveries using
these illicit services.
That should not be advocated bythe federal government.
So that's just abysmal.
(16:26):
And so trying to do somethingthat's already been raised to
the inspector general ofDepartment of Transportation we
got that in a hearing raised byRepresentative Ben Klein from
Virginia, who was great on thatissue and looking forward to
working with him.
Who's an appropriator more thisyear on that?
Um.
And finally I think you know,luke, I don't know what you want
to share discuss um withrescheduling.
I think you know that's on alot of people's minds.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Um, but going, going through that process uh where
that pans out and kind of, yeah,well, I mean, the industry is
really kind of basically justimplement.
You know, they just pulled offone of the biggest self-owns in
the history of self-owns.
I mean, you, you have, uh,village farms, I think is what
(17:07):
they're called, and it's amarijuana industry.
You know company, and they havefiled an interlocutory appeal
excuse me, interlocutory motionthat basically has stopped the
entire rescheduling process,caused the administrative law
judge to cancel all.
We had weeks of proceedingsscheduled.
(17:29):
We had gone through all thescheduling, all the testimony,
everything was set for all ofthe parties that were going to
participate in these historichearings on the rescheduling of
marijuana, and their motion hasstopped everything completely
dead in its tracks.
It's been canceled, it's beencanceled and it's indefinitely
canceled.
So we don't know when thesewill be picked back up.
(17:49):
The DA administrator is goingto, I guess, consider their
motion is my understanding andreally we have no idea what's
going to happen from here, butit's just astonishing that they
would do this Now.
Everything is in limbo as a newadministration is taking office
and we don't know what the Trumpadministration has planned.
But with something like this,it's kind of wide open to say
(18:11):
well, you know this has beenkind of a mess.
You know, hhs completelyinvented new protocols and
procedures that have no basis inlaw, no precedent.
There was a complete bunglingof the process from a political
perspective when it was supposedto be scientific.
There's a lot of reasons tojust call these hearings off,
and so they provided a reallygreat additional reason to do
that.
So I guess, hats off to theindustry for this.
(18:32):
I mean, unless there'ssomething we're really missing
on the strategy here, jordan, Idon't know, maybe you can clue
me in, but we're feeling happyabout that and we'll see, kind
of, what the future holds interms of this process.
I mean, we'll be learning asthe public learns.
(18:59):
Yeah, yeah, nothing, nothingreally to contribute, definitely
yeah, I will say you yeah, yeah, nothing really to contribute,
definitely honest.
I mean, obviously rescheduling.
People say, oh, you know whywould he implement, president
Biden, implement rescheduling?
But you know, as we've talkedabout a lot on this podcast, if
marijuana is rescheduled tothree, it remains completely
(19:20):
illegal.
The entire marijuana industryis completely out of compliance.
So you know we're talking aboutan administration that stuck to
its guns on not legalizingmarijuana.
We're talking about a Congressthat we were told, you know,
with the Senate majority leadertaking the historic stand on
saying, you know, safe bankingact, marijuana banking
legalization is going to be atop priority.
We were told that this was adone deal, and none of that
(19:41):
happened.
So you know we had a verystrikingly successful session
last session, and so it justshows you it doesn't matter
who's in power.
There's common sense on bothsides that can help win the day,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
And one thing to add that I kind of forgot in the
federal overview, luke, that Ithink is important to mention is
just like what the newpolitical kind of dynamic looks
like for us, actual like thekind of pieces on the chessboard
.
So you know, obviously you knowthings we don't know about the
executive branch exactly what'sgoing to happen.
Look, pam Bondi, who's goingthrough her confirmation
hearings right now, has beenreally great on this issue in
(20:17):
the past, so that's kind of likea check.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
We've got a great picture that says don't legalize
pot from her efforts to stopmedical marijuana, so we're very
happy about that we're veryhappy about that.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
So then the House and the Senate, right.
So taking the House, you knowMike Johnson was elected speaker
again.
Mike Johnson is firmly againstthis.
Steve Scalise remains thenumber two member of the House
firmly against this In reallypowerful committees.
Take the Rules Committee, whichis kind of like able to stop
almost anything.
It's kind of the gateway, likethe gatekeeper from House
(20:53):
committees and bills that arepassed to the House floor and
what's voted on.
Representative Virginia Fox wasjust elected, or just placed,
as the chairwoman of the RulesCommittee.
She has an A-plus voting recordby our standard, and Thomas
Massey and Guy Reschenthaler,who were two of the most
pro-marijuana members of thatcommittee, have been taken off
that committee.
(21:14):
So that's really great for us.
And then hopping kind of over tothe Senate.
You know, if you look at, theSenate kind of is broken up, I
think, into really some factions.
And in the Senate majority'sleaders race you had three main
candidates.
You had John Thune who ended upwinning, you had John Corden
who got second place and you hadRick Scott who kind of was
(21:34):
third.
And if you look at all three ofthose candidates leading their
factions, they all split up ashare of the votes.
John Thune, who won, is firmlyagainst marijuana.
He signed a letter that wehelped write against
rescheduling, spoken to him inperson about this issue.
He believes in our fight.
John Cornyn is one of the moreactive members on the marijuana
issue, very knowledgeable aboutit and really strongly against
(21:57):
everything.
And Rick Scott even though hegot last place in the race he
still kind of represents a voicefor a faction of these
Republicans.
And Rick Scott is firmlyagainst all of this as well.
He lost his brother to drugproblems and so he kind of finds
his opposition based inpersonal family experience from
really the heart.
So I think that's a reallyencouraging sign for us as well,
(22:19):
and so I think the legalizersare going to have a really tough
playing field in the newCongress and I think it's going
to be great for us.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
It's fantastic Well, lots to look forward to.
Obviously, it's not allsunshine and roses.
There's challenges along theway.
Eventually, this reschedulingprocess will sort itself out and
we'll have to have a conclusionto these hearings.
We'll have to have some sort ofrule or something promulgated
from that, so we're definitelygoing to be needing your help
with that.
Also, the industry was verysuccessful in getting a number
(22:52):
of Republicans, particularly inthe Senate, on board with Safe
Banking Act.
President Trump, on the campaigntrail, made some kind of vague
remarks about potentiallysupporting the Safe Banking Act
or something of that nature.
Whether that exists now underhis administration we don't know
.
We'll have to see.
But there are definitelychallenges along the way and we
will be again tracking andworking on that along with all
(23:14):
of you, and so many of ourlisteners are advocates who are
working very hard at the stateand local level as well as at
the federal level.
We thank you for that and wewill keep you posted on that.
Jordan, thank you for joiningme on the podcast today.
To all of you who listen, anynew listeners, anyone who hasn't
done this yet please leave us afive-star rating and review.
We really appreciate that, andhave a absolutely wonderful rest
(23:35):
of your week.
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