March 11, 2025 • 45 mins
Think diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) is just about race and gender? Think again. DEI frameworks impact nearly everyone—veterans, parents, caregivers, disabled individuals, and more—by breaking down barriers to success and ensuring true merit can shine.
In this episode, we tackle the biggest misconceptions about DEI, including the idea that it undermines meritocracy (hint: it actually strengthens it). We explore how everyday policies—like family leave and accessibility accommodations—are DEI in action and why businesses should focus on outcomes over political rhetoric.
You don’t need a corporate mandate to foster inclusion. We break down three practical DEI frameworks that work in any environment and share how leaders can implement meaningful change within their teams: collective accountability, intervention-based approaches, and systemic change mechanisms. Whether you're leading a department or running an enterprise, this conversation will show you how DEI drives real business impact—no buzzwords required.
Join us for a candid, no-nonsense discussion about keeping DEI relevant, practical, and effective—because when done right, it’s not just about fairness. It’s smart business.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Karen McFarlane (00:01):
Hi, brittany, welcome back.
It's good to see you.
It's good to see you too, andyou have to see our guest, our
producer, mina Mina.
Hi, mina, new haircut growingin New hair.
Brittany S. Hale (00:24):
Who's this?
Karen McFarlane (00:30):
I saw her earlier.
You know I was joking that Iyou know she reminded me of
thundercats from back in the day, you know, with the hair
growing in.
So you know, now I feel like Ineed to watch an episode of a
fine one.
You have to.
Brittany S. Hale (00:44):
Absolutely.
That's what we'll do after this.
Okay.
Karen McFarlane (00:49):
Exactly, and you know, the Thundercats fought
chaos every single episode, andwe're living in a world full of
chaos right now.
Brittany S. Hale (00:59):
We are, we are , it is.
It is a quite plot twist inthis latest season of America.
Karen McFarlane (01:11):
You know, some years from now someone's going
to write an episodic and they'regoing to have at least seven or
eight, maybe 13 seasons.
This might be the longestrunning episodic television show
ever, by the time they startand finish.
Stunning, you know, episodictelevision show ever, by the
time they start and finish.
So Absolutely.
Brittany S. Hale (01:27):
I just hope that they they portray us
correctly, accurately.
Karen McFarlane (01:32):
Hopefully we'll make the cut.
But you know, there's so much,so many different things
(01:55):
happening in the world today,right, like, obviously we talk a
lot about DEI, but this isreally, at the end of the day, a
leadership issue, right?
So we see this flurry ofexecutive orders being signed
that affect large swaths ofpeople within our country,
outside of our country.
It has a domino effect acrossthe board that I don't know that
we as people fully understand,because some of these things
that have surfaced, some of usmay be hearing about for the
(02:16):
very first time, right, or havelike some vague understanding of
, but don't really can't reallyget to the heart of the matter
because it just hasn't been partof our lexicon for a really
long time.
But you know, again, it justboils down to leadership.
You know, I just one of thecrazy executive orders is like
(02:40):
oh, plastic is back, we need toswitch.
You know there's going to beexecutive order about paper
straws, right, oh, plastic isback, we need to switch.
There's going to be executiveorder about paper straws.
Is that really where we need tofocus?
Do we need to level thatconversation up?
Is that a critical determinant?
Brittany S. Hale (02:55):
in our day-to-day.
I don't know.
Karen McFarlane (02:58):
Right.
I think that one of the thingswe could spend a little bit of
time on today is helping peopleunderstand, despite the fact
that this flurry of activitythat's happening around
diversity, equity, inclusion,what they can do or continue to
do as leaders while all of thisstuff is being sorted out.
Brittany S. Hale (03:40):
I think, at the end of the day, that's one
of love, a system.
And I put such emphasis onthose because most of the time
we believe we're far more incontrol of our actions, thoughts
and behaviors than we actuallyare.
And because taking time toprocess and make a decision
(04:04):
takes more energy and time thanwe often like for it to.
When you plug into a system,that is the energy efficient way
to move goals forward.
And most people, I think, whenyou present them with the idea
(04:26):
of DEI initiatives,incorporating DEI into their
culture, defining their culture,most people think, oh, this is
going to be super hard.
Oh, we have to start fromscratch.
Karen McFarlane (04:43):
So I like that we'll be talking about this
today.
Yeah, let's just say this partup front.
What I think more people havecome to understand is that DEI
is not just about race, aboutrace or gender or gender.
(05:08):
It is about a series ofcharacteristics that
differentiate all of us but havemeaning to us as individuals,
as a group, as a society, andthat the purpose of diversity,
equity, inclusion as a whole isto make sure that everyone feels
(05:33):
like they belong as part of thegreater society, as part of the
organization, whichever groupthey sit in, Because we are
recognizing that there aredifferences that we hope to
appreciate, celebrate but also,in some cases, make some
accommodations for, so that theycan feel like a full part of
this society.
(05:54):
And that's it.
And you know the fact that theconversation you know the fact
(06:27):
that the conversation,particularly during the campaign
, focused on very polarizingissues confused people and they
didn't quite understand thatthey may be included in the DEI
definition and are getting awake-up call that they also are
included.
So I just wanted to set thetone there, but you may have
some other things you want tosay about what DEI is and what
DEI is not.
Brittany S. Hale (06:42):
I think you did that perfectly.
I think that makes a lot ofsense.
The only thing that I would addis that DEI facilitates and
furthers merit.
It doesn't replace it, and Ithink that is the number one
concern that we've heard is thatorganizations should be
(07:06):
merit-based, and DEI and merit,or MEI as we've seen it touted
by others they're notoppositional others.
You create DEI frameworks sothat you can focus on merit.
Karen McFarlane (07:29):
That's all.
No, that is an excellent pointthat needed to be highlighted
Because, as we also saw, just asan example, when the plane
crashed in the Washington DCarea, there was an automatic
assumption that DEI was aculprit before there was even
(07:54):
any investigation.
Right, that DEI was a culprit.
And it also the president atthe time basically said that
people with disabilities are DEIhires and potentially were
hired to be part of the NTSB,and that was a factor in this
(08:22):
crash.
Right, which was incrediblyirresponsible to say and also
offensive to say, because itleans on a trope that people
with disabilities are lessintelligent, right, don't have
the capability to be excellentin their work and don't deserve
(08:46):
any merit.
Right, like, because there'ssomething wrong with them and,
first of all, having adisability does not mean that
anything's wrong with them.
You just have differentchallenges that you have to face
and the definition ofdisability is pretty broad.
So, like, what are?
What are we talking about?
(09:07):
And it also ignored the factthat there are a series of
merit-based steps to become partof the NTSB.
Right, like you just don't walkin off the street and be like
yeah, you know thischaracteristic, this DEI
characteristic, and you shouldhire me and I can just skip
(09:29):
through all of your protocols.
That doesn't happen.
As a matter of fact, thosethings might even be harder for
you, especially if they weren'tbuilt in consideration of some
of your differences, and thefact that you got through them
anyway actually speaks volumesabout your capabilities.
Brittany S. Hale (09:55):
I have to admit the my own bias and I
think we were speaking when weheard about the crash.
And I think we were speakingwhen we heard about the crash.
I heard the president'sstatements about DEI and I
(10:15):
immediately thought the pilotsmay look a particular way and
that was what caused thestatement about DEI and I was
wrong.
Karen McFarlane (10:44):
And I was wrong , they all presented to be
people that at least thepresident and his administration
would, I believe, find to behighly capable and competent
people, because they were allwhite men.
Yeah, well, I have to admitthat's what I thought too,
because, you know, theconversation around this has
been primarily that DEI equalsrace and then secondarily,
gender, right, and I thoughtthat too, because that because,
(11:04):
if he's talking, that's what Ithink he's talking about and was
surprised to learn that he wastalking about a whole different
group that is inclusive of whitepeople, because white people
can be disabled.
So it was really interesting tosee him, I think for one of the
(11:25):
very first times.
Well, that's not true, becausehe mocked them during his
candidacy for the previouselection.
So, you know, but it's not asprevalent as you know the, you
know other things that he'stalked about.
So I also found myself like kindof falling into that exact same
(11:45):
trap, right, right, and so itwas like we have to still, like
we all have to still retrainourselves.
So it's it's easy to see howother people can kind of fall
into that trap If we as, aspeople who are very focused on
DEI, do it too.
So if you didn't, you know,you're forgiven and everybody
(12:06):
out there is forgiven.
Brittany S. Hale (12:07):
We just need to do that and to that point
it's being forgiven, andcontinuing to stay curious and
say, huh, okay, let me unpackthat Right.
Karen McFarlane (12:19):
Exactly, exactly, and so we're seeing
that play out now on an evenbroader scale, right?
So we see that he was talkingabout.
When he talked about DEI, itwasn't just race, it was women,
and I think some women didn'treally believe it was really
women, right, it was.
(12:39):
But now they're they're seeingevidence of that.
We just talked about disabledpeople.
Veterans were seeing that popup right, like we're seeing
certain groups, like theVenezuelans, right, for example,
who were very pro-Trump that hewas also talking about them,
(13:03):
right, and maybe they would havestill voted the way that they
voted.
Something tells me that, ifthey thought it was going to
affect them negatively, I thinkthat most people, if they
thought that these things weregoing to affect them negatively,
may have reconsidered orthought differently about their
approach to their vote.
And he was dishonest let's justbe honest about what his
(13:25):
positions were but it's a hugewake up call for a lot of
different groups here.
Brittany S. Hale (13:32):
Yes, yes, and that is the point.
I'm so glad you brought that up, because to anyone listening
listening who may think thatthey don't occupy a particular
group, that fits within DEI,you're probably mistaken,
(13:54):
because DEI covers white people,black people, latin people,
asian people, right All, allraces, all genders,
non-conforming people, peoplewho are binary, people who are
(14:20):
veterans, people who aredisabled, people who have
invisible disabilities, peoplewho are able-bodied, people who
believe in progress andinnovation, people who are
parents, people who arecaregivers, people who are
caregivers of parents.
I mean, I could go on, I won't,but the point being is, 99.9%
(14:46):
of people fit within some ofthose categories that I
mentioned.
Karen McFarlane (14:54):
Absolutely.
I mean, let's talk aboutparents for a second.
Yes, so incredibly universal tomany people, not everybody.
Yes, so incredibly universal tomany people, not everybody.
But the fact that you havechanging tables in bathrooms,
the fact that you have familybathrooms, the fact that you
(15:16):
have lactation rooms, the factthat you have parental leave,
family leave right, all of thesethings help you and your
families.
They support you in meaningfulways.
Brittany S. Hale (15:40):
It being extended to the non-birthing
parent right, which is why we'recalling it parental leave
versus paternity leave Extendedto parents who adopt Right IVF
right, even being covered.
Karen McFarlane (15:55):
I think in some cases it can be covered, but in
all cases right, all of thesedifferent things right.
They're in support of helpingyou be able to do something,
something that's more convenientfor you, so you have a, your
quality of life is better, orsomething that you can't do,
(16:15):
like IVF, for example.
That's going to help you buildyour families and give you a
different opportunity in lifeand that's by no fault of your
own right.
It's helping you through.
So, like you said, brittany,everybody kind of fits in that
(16:38):
definition.
You know of DEI and you knowI've been hearing a lot on the
news.
You know you have the punditskind of just vacillating about,
like what's going on in theworld, and one of them talked
about the fact that you knowthat white men are very fearful
(17:03):
and that's where some of this iscoming from and I'm like, well,
that's interesting, but theyalso fit under this category
because all of theintersectionality, right.
So what white men are fearful?
Can we define that scope ofwhat the idyllic situation looks
(17:25):
like in America where you don'tneed any layer of DEI?
I would love to know what thatlooks like Absolutely.
Brittany S. Hale (17:36):
Because let's say again and I think it does a
disservice to white men rightFor that to be their only
identity, but let's say you dohave a workforce of solely white
men, you're going to havepeople still different abilities
, different hair colors,different you know, what I mean,
(17:57):
and we don't.
We would not want their howthey look to replace what they
could do Exactly.
And so, in an odd way, we allagree that the way a person
(18:19):
looks should not speak to theirability Mm-hmm.
Some of us are just a bit more,I would say, forthright about
that than others Mm-hmm Rightabout that, than others, mm-hmm
Right.
So when we're talking about so,I kind of want to go back to
(18:46):
these frameworks and theseoperating systems.
Yep, I'll share three that I'veworked with.
I know that you are incrediblywell-versed and well-studied in
this as well, so I'd love tohear your perspective.
And just really quickly.
So I worked with collectiveaccountability frameworks,
(19:10):
intervention-based frameworksand systemic change frameworks.
Okay, so for those who areunaware, collective
accountability is exactly whatit sounds like.
So if we take an organization,this particular framework would
seek to make everyone within theorganization responsible for
(19:34):
advancing DEI.
Karen McFarlane (19:36):
DEI.
Brittany S. Hale (19:37):
Whether you are a first-year associate,
whether you are in the C-suiteor you're somewhere in the
middle, everyone is aware of andaccountable to DEI within that
organization.
So I've said you know,trickle-down economics may not
work, but trickle-down culturedoes right.
(19:59):
So that looks like your CEOs,like at a Costco or at a JP
Morgan, saying we're not gettingrid of these frameworks, these
systems.
We found them to be highlybeneficial, highly lucrative and
(20:19):
we're going to continue.
And that is echoed at everylevel, not only verbally but
through practice.
Right, you haveintervention-based and that's
where you take notice.
Whether it's throughrecruitment promotion, something
(20:43):
happens where we say, huh, werealize that we don't have any
women in the C-suite, we realizethat our marketing teams are
not very diverse in their globalexperience and develop models
(21:09):
and systems to shift that.
So from a recruitment piece itcould be we realize that we've
only recruited from threeschools.
Does this make sense?
And should we expand our reachto see the types of talent that
(21:30):
we may be missing out on?
Right, race and gender is notpart of that conversation, right
?
Karen McFarlane (21:39):
No, I didn't hear it yet.
Brittany S. Hale (21:40):
Yeah, but that's what it is.
And then, finally, you havesystemic change frameworks,
which, again, that's where,exactly as it sounds, you want
to change the system as a whole.
That's where you're looking atpolicies and procedures.
You're looking at corporategovernance procedures.
You're looking at corporategovernance.
Karen McFarlane (22:01):
you're looking at maybe even you know the
opportunity to leveragelegislation to advance this
within your organization.
So I'll pause there.
Yeah, I mean it feels verycyclical in my view, right, like
you kind of explained it,linear, but it's just a circle.
(22:21):
So it starts like you just said.
It starts with what the mandateis at the top and then
everybody understands themandate and looks at their
respective areas to figure outwhere they can make improvements
.
So that's the interventionpiece and then as you start to
look at those and everybody'sidentifying areas of opportunity
(22:45):
to improve, based on themandate from the collective
accountability structure, thenyou are putting in more
permanent measures, systemicpermanent measures, so that
you're not doing one-offs.
It just becomes part of theendless loop of productivity or
accountability Sorry,accountability.
(23:06):
So I think that's incrediblysimple to think through right,
it's what people do for theirdata, like for other problems
and situations.
For other problems andsituations, it's just about
(23:33):
applying it to culture and howyou want to represent your
culture for your organization,and I think that's incredibly
helpful to think about it inthose terms.
Brittany S. Hale (23:40):
What do you think for anyone listening who
says, yes, we want to keep DEIor we want to keep an eye on DEI
, focus on DEI within ourorganization.
What do you think some of theirbiggest challenges are outside
(24:04):
of legislative shifts, becausewe know for nonprofits that can
be an issue.
Any organization that'sreceiving any sort of federal
funding, that could be an issue.
But just within theorganization, within, let's say,
having conversation with keystakeholders.
Karen McFarlane (24:23):
So I had this conversation the other day,
actually, and we were talkingabout marketing, and one of the
comments that I made was Iactually don't think, whether
you call it DEI or not, becausethat's a different conversation
anything actually changes formarketers Because, at the end of
(24:46):
the day, a marketer's job is toknow their customer but also
assist in growing the business.
If your business requires morecustomers, right, then I don't
think any business is in thebusiness of saying we don't want
(25:08):
this particular customer basedon their physical
characteristics, for example,unless they make clothes for
people that are five, two andunder petite clothes only, right
, for example.
Right, but they're not in thatbusiness.
They're in the business ofunderstanding what motivates
(25:32):
people to purchase their product, what problem they're trying to
solve for certain personas,right, but it's not typically
based on some physicalcharacteristic, with some
exception, don't get me wrong.
And so segmentation inmarketing, for example, it has.
It's just been a thing that wedo, right, we're supposed to
(25:54):
segment our customers by certaincharacteristics and that's how
we grow the business, soexpanding that a little bit more
.
For most companies that we'redealing with, they're global
companies and so not having somesort of cultural intelligence
(26:18):
or cultural competencies on yourteam, whether it's internal or
external talent, is actually anegative, because how are you
going to connect with thosecustomers emotionally, really
understand what problems you'retrying to solve, because they're
not the same for everybody.
Some of those are based onculture or region.
How are you going to tap intothat if you don't build those
(26:40):
competencies on your team?
Even if you are a US company,you are still dealing with
various different cultures.
United States is a your job,right?
And putting out again from amarketing perspective, putting
(27:10):
out content of whatever type Ithink a lot of most of marketing
is a ton of content of whatevertype is about appealing to that
persona in a very specific way,and we also know
personalization is a key driverof engagement, and so how do you
personalize that content in ameaningful way?
(27:31):
So I don't actually think itchanges that much in that
respect.
You zero out a little bit morefrom a leadership perspective,
right.
I think your biggest challengeis how do you communicate that
(27:53):
nothing's changed, although somethings have changed in a way
that doesn't look like and theseare for people who want to do
DX it doesn't look like you arebacking out of your goal for
inclusion and belonging, becauseI think all businesses
(28:14):
understand that at least, at thevery least, the people that
work there need to be connectedto you in some way in order for
them to be productive and beinnovative.
So how you do that within thisnew world order can be tricky if
(28:39):
you don't have the support fromyour, you know, board of
directors, or if you're justresponding to external pressures
, because we see some companiesscrubbing some pieces of
information from their website,but does that necessarily mean
they've given up on all of DEI?
Well, that remains to be seen.
So I think that's a bigchallenge is the communication
(29:02):
piece, which is always achallenge, like communication is
, like, I think, one of thebiggest challenges in every
single corporation ever, becauseyou can never find the right
way to say the right thing toevery single person.
So I think that's it.
And the other part too is justand we talked about this before
it's like standing on your ownbusiness, like you know
(29:25):
ultimately how to run yourbusiness and what's good for
your business, and if you forsome reason feel like people not
feeling included, like you wantto run a you know one size fits
all factory for your business,like you think that makes sense
for you.
Well, go ahead.
You have actually the right todo that and it may be successful
(29:48):
for you, but in many othercompanies it's not going to be.
What do you think thechallenges are?
Brittany S. Hale (29:58):
I think first, I think that was perfectly
stated and I'm just I guess thisis, this is the crux of it.
This is what makes sense.
You can't have, you can't be um.
Create this personalizedexperience that people relate to
, while also trying to deny whatmakes it personal to them.
(30:27):
I would say, especially as itpertains to leaders Leaders
there's a certain level ofcandor that is going to be
required to maintain and deepenthe trust between leadership and
(30:49):
teams.
There have been people who areemailing their resumes to
leadership you know to say I amnot a DEI hire and that's the
wrong approach, as I see it,because that person is doing it
(31:16):
because they're afraid.
They're afraid or they don'tlike what could happen to them.
Right what could happen to them.
Right, and the way that I wouldlook at it is that should not
(31:39):
ever be an issue.
The fact that you were hired isdemonstrative of leadership's
belief in your ability, butthere should be proactive
communications and ongoingcommunications from leadership
about what DEI means, the valuethat it brings to the
organization and tying itdirectly back to business goals.
(32:02):
How does creating ERGs, forexample, further our business
goals?
Ergs, for example, further ourbusiness goals?
How does expanding into globalmarkets further our business
goals?
And how can we moreauthentically show up for these
(32:23):
markets, both existing and, youknow, the markets that we have
our eyes on?
We have to do that throughrepeated practice, and we have
to do that.
People have to be able to trustthat their experience of the
brand will be comparable to theexperience that other people
(32:44):
have had, To your point, thatthey can see themselves
reflected in it, that they canget what they believe they need
from the organization.
So that doesn't happen if theorganization isn't communicating
internally.
(33:04):
The team should not besurprised by any marketing
pushes or any of the you knowany of the headlines that we've
been bombarded with Six weeks.
No one should be surprised bythat.
Karen McFarlane (33:29):
I mean, I agree with you.
I think one of the things thathas been a challenge is the
measuring of those CEI goals andladdering them challenge, and
(33:50):
you know you can't.
It's hard to keep something andjustify something when you
haven't been able to measure it,and that's been tricky.
But also, at the same time, youknow a lot of these
organizations.
Not that many of them weren'tthinking about it before, right,
but since 2020, it just kind ofreally surfaced in a way where
(34:14):
they also had to report on it,right, and so they really only
had a short time to try tofigure out how to measure it in
a way that made sense for thebusiness or laddered up to some
of these external benchmarkreports and things of that
nature.
So, in their defense, in someof the company's defenses, you
(34:36):
know that they haven't hadenough time to do it.
Those that could rally someresources around it have been
able to prove that it has abenefit on their organization in
a very meaningful way, or theyfolded it in into their like
they didn't separate it out, itwas just, it's just part of
their DNA, and so they lean intotheir DNA, um, and so you're
(35:12):
right.
So this, this opportunity fordismantling it.
Yeah, um, and also, peoplehadn't didn't fully understand
it, right?
Because, I mean, we'reliterally still teaching people
what the acronym means, andbecause we turn it into an
(35:34):
acronym, the weight of itbecomes lighter, so there's all
sorts of things.
Brittany S. Hale (35:42):
Absolutely, and I would love for you to kind
of to just emphasize the pointabout benchmarking Because,
again, I'm not a quant Numbersare important and they tell a
story, but you still needcontext around that story, right
(36:35):
?
So if you take a snapshot bitmore for people who want to
understand the point of havingbenchmarks,
Karen McFarlane (36:43):
Well, one of the biggest questions that I
heard or got over the years,past few years is how do I know
if I'm doing well?
And they wanted to look atother companies to understand
where they stacked up so thatthey could create goals for
(37:03):
themselves.
Right, and benchmark.
We do bet, you know you dobenchmarking and so many other
aspects of other uh, the othersides of your business that that
becomes like a very naturalquestion, like, especially if
you're starting from scratch,like I'm, where am I, is this
good and where do I need to beso I know how to chart my goals,
what kinds of investments Ineed to make to get there, you
(37:26):
know in one year, two year, fiveyears, right, years, right,
whatever that is.
So I mean that, I think, isreally the impetus for
benchmarking, like you said,like, unless you have the
narrative around that, becauseyou can have a company that, um,
they've been doing this for 20years.
(37:48):
They just might not have beencalling it DEI, right, they
started to measure it.
So they're much further alongin the process than you that had
just started.
So you also need to understandrelative to where you are.
Maybe it's based on your annualrevenue, years in business,
number of employees, things ofthat nature, like how do you
(38:11):
kind of stack up?
So you know it's a useful tool,but it shouldn't stop you from
progress.
So your story, like you said,is your story.
What's right for your businessis right for your business, even
if you're looking at 10 otherbusinesses that are somewhat
like you, for example, or ahundred other businesses are
(38:33):
somewhat like you, they're notyou, and so you have to build
your own goals around where youthink you need to be in a year,
three years, five years, 10years, and map them to your
business goals.
Because, while some aspects ofany part of your business are
(39:00):
amorphous right, you can'treally measure their soft
metrics, right, there are somevery specific metrics that
everybody has to come up with,no matter where they are.
What are those?
And just start and start tobuild on that and, just like you
(39:21):
, take into account the softerelements of your business,
figure out how you express thoseright.
So, for like for marketing,well, there's a lot of different
metrics, but we have to showhow we've contributed to the
business, and that's going to bein hard dollars and cents, but
(39:41):
also things like brand awareness.
Now, some of that can bemeasured based on sentiment and
some brand analysis, but some ofthat is really not as specific,
right, or just you know as youwould like it to be and you
drive a narrative.
Brittany S. Hale (40:00):
Absolutely.
I was just thinking.
You have groups.
We've talked about parents andcaregivers groups.
We talked about parents andcaregivers.
Those groups could easily beconnected to an organization's
sustainability goals mm-hmm,which could easily be connected
(40:22):
to retention rates.
Right, just those three pointsthere.
How are these parents?
How are they thinking about thefuture?
Why are they here?
What is it about?
How we're showing up forsustainability that not only
attracted them here, but keepsthem here, and how can we
(40:45):
guarantee that these people whoare willing to work in
furtherance of our goals aregoing to stay here?
Karen McFarlane (40:55):
Absolutely.
So, yeah, and that's just likeyou said.
That's just one element.
There's a few data points andlisten, companies figure out how
to measure the darndest things.
You're right, they can figureit out and it's okay.
Like you might be a pioneer ina particular area and be a
(41:16):
pioneer, go talk to people abouthow they're measuring it, share
how you're, you know, thinkingabout this and help people along
.
Like we don't have to alwayshave everything completely
figured out before we startdoing it.
We can evolve a lot of ourpractices.
(41:36):
It's called innovation.
Brittany S. Hale (41:41):
And I think that lends to trust.
Yes, yes, absolutely.
If I know that you're startingand that there's room to grow
and there's room for me to sharemy view, I'm more invested in
seeing you get to the next point.
Karen McFarlane (42:02):
Yes, and helping you get there.
Yes, I mean part of the train,you know.
Yes, I mean part of the train,you know.
So I think the message we Ihope that we're leaving our
listeners with is you don't haveto stop.
You can keep going, obviouslywithin the parameters of your
(42:28):
organization, obviously withinthe parameters of your
organization, but beinginclusive is really not optional
.
Going back to your frameworks,right, collective accountability
(42:50):
, intervention and oh shoot,systemic change, right.
Even in your small like, let'sjust say you work in one
department and you're a managerin one department hiring, like
maybe you're a hiring manager inone department, it can start
with just you thinking aboutyour team, what's best for your
(43:13):
team, right, what kind of skillsets you need, what type of
leadership capabilities that youneed, and you start with that
and then you think about youknow you are a manager that's
like focused on DEI principles.
You think about how you bringthat level of diversity and
(43:35):
diversity of people, diversityof thought, however you want to
call it right Into your team andin the work that you're
producing and you measure itright.
You can just start with justyou.
You don't necessarily need ahuge mandate from the top.
You don't need the words DEIplastered on the website.
(44:00):
Dei is you, because you arerepresentative of it, except for
that small microcosm of peoplethat we talked about, that we
need to identify.
You are a product of it and youneed to extend that grace to
other people.
That's what I think.
Mic drop, I'm not goinganywhere, so we will see what
(44:25):
the world brings us this week.
No, but the listeners havetheir marching orders, I know,
but the listeners have theirmarching orders.
Brittany S. Hale (44:33):
Yes, you have homework.
I'm sure you didn't think thatyou would, but you do yeah.
Karen McFarlane (44:39):
So drop in the comments what you did for your
homework.
Yes, absolutely, until nexttime.
Bye, bye, bye, mina.
Hi, brittany, welcome back.
It's good to see you.
It's good to see you too, andyou have to see our guest, our
producer, mina Mina.
Hi, mina, new haircut growingin New hair.
Brittany S. Hale (00:24):
Who's this?
Karen McFarlane (00:30):
I saw her earlier.
You know I was joking that Iyou know she reminded me of
thundercats from back in the day, you know, with the hair
growing in.
So you know, now I feel like Ineed to watch an episode of a
fine one.
You have to.
Brittany S. Hale (00:44):
Absolutely.
That's what we'll do after this.
Okay.
Karen McFarlane (00:49):
Exactly, and you know, the Thundercats fought
chaos every single episode, andwe're living in a world full of
chaos right now.
Brittany S. Hale (00:59):
We are, we are , it is.
It is a quite plot twist inthis latest season of America.
Karen McFarlane (01:11):
You know, some years from now someone's going
to write an episodic and they'regoing to have at least seven or
eight, maybe 13 seasons.
This might be the longestrunning episodic television show
ever, by the time they startand finish.
Stunning, you know, episodictelevision show ever, by the
time they start and finish.
So Absolutely.
Brittany S. Hale (01:27):
I just hope that they they portray us
correctly, accurately.
Karen McFarlane (01:32):
Hopefully we'll make the cut.
But you know, there's so much,so many different things
(01:55):
happening in the world today,right, like, obviously we talk a
lot about DEI, but this isreally, at the end of the day, a
leadership issue, right?
So we see this flurry ofexecutive orders being signed
that affect large swaths ofpeople within our country,
outside of our country.
It has a domino effect acrossthe board that I don't know that
we as people fully understand,because some of these things
that have surfaced, some of usmay be hearing about for the
(02:16):
very first time, right, or havelike some vague understanding of
, but don't really can't reallyget to the heart of the matter
because it just hasn't been partof our lexicon for a really
long time.
But you know, again, it justboils down to leadership.
You know, I just one of thecrazy executive orders is like
(02:40):
oh, plastic is back, we need toswitch.
You know there's going to beexecutive order about paper
straws, right, oh, plastic isback, we need to switch.
There's going to be executiveorder about paper straws.
Is that really where we need tofocus?
Do we need to level thatconversation up?
Is that a critical determinant?
Brittany S. Hale (02:55):
in our day-to-day.
I don't know.
Karen McFarlane (02:58):
Right.
I think that one of the thingswe could spend a little bit of
time on today is helping peopleunderstand, despite the fact
that this flurry of activitythat's happening around
diversity, equity, inclusion,what they can do or continue to
do as leaders while all of thisstuff is being sorted out.
Brittany S. Hale (03:40):
I think, at the end of the day, that's one
of love, a system.
And I put such emphasis onthose because most of the time
we believe we're far more incontrol of our actions, thoughts
and behaviors than we actuallyare.
And because taking time toprocess and make a decision
(04:04):
takes more energy and time thanwe often like for it to.
When you plug into a system,that is the energy efficient way
to move goals forward.
And most people, I think, whenyou present them with the idea
(04:26):
of DEI initiatives,incorporating DEI into their
culture, defining their culture,most people think, oh, this is
going to be super hard.
Oh, we have to start fromscratch.
Karen McFarlane (04:43):
So I like that we'll be talking about this
today.
Yeah, let's just say this partup front.
What I think more people havecome to understand is that DEI
is not just about race, aboutrace or gender or gender.
(05:08):
It is about a series ofcharacteristics that
differentiate all of us but havemeaning to us as individuals,
as a group, as a society, andthat the purpose of diversity,
equity, inclusion as a whole isto make sure that everyone feels
(05:33):
like they belong as part of thegreater society, as part of the
organization, whichever groupthey sit in, Because we are
recognizing that there aredifferences that we hope to
appreciate, celebrate but also,in some cases, make some
accommodations for, so that theycan feel like a full part of
this society.
(05:54):
And that's it.
And you know the fact that theconversation you know the fact
(06:27):
that the conversation,particularly during the campaign
, focused on very polarizingissues confused people and they
didn't quite understand thatthey may be included in the DEI
definition and are getting awake-up call that they also are
included.
So I just wanted to set thetone there, but you may have
some other things you want tosay about what DEI is and what
DEI is not.
Brittany S. Hale (06:42):
I think you did that perfectly.
I think that makes a lot ofsense.
The only thing that I would addis that DEI facilitates and
furthers merit.
It doesn't replace it, and Ithink that is the number one
concern that we've heard is thatorganizations should be
(07:06):
merit-based, and DEI and merit,or MEI as we've seen it touted
by others they're notoppositional others.
You create DEI frameworks sothat you can focus on merit.
Karen McFarlane (07:29):
That's all.
No, that is an excellent pointthat needed to be highlighted
Because, as we also saw, just asan example, when the plane
crashed in the Washington DCarea, there was an automatic
assumption that DEI was aculprit before there was even
(07:54):
any investigation.
Right, that DEI was a culprit.
And it also the president atthe time basically said that
people with disabilities are DEIhires and potentially were
hired to be part of the NTSB,and that was a factor in this
(08:22):
crash.
Right, which was incrediblyirresponsible to say and also
offensive to say, because itleans on a trope that people
with disabilities are lessintelligent, right, don't have
the capability to be excellentin their work and don't deserve
(08:46):
any merit.
Right, like, because there'ssomething wrong with them and,
first of all, having adisability does not mean that
anything's wrong with them.
You just have differentchallenges that you have to face
and the definition ofdisability is pretty broad.
So, like, what are?
What are we talking about?
(09:07):
And it also ignored the factthat there are a series of
merit-based steps to become partof the NTSB.
Right, like you just don't walkin off the street and be like
yeah, you know thischaracteristic, this DEI
characteristic, and you shouldhire me and I can just skip
(09:29):
through all of your protocols.
That doesn't happen.
As a matter of fact, thosethings might even be harder for
you, especially if they weren'tbuilt in consideration of some
of your differences, and thefact that you got through them
anyway actually speaks volumesabout your capabilities.
Brittany S. Hale (09:55):
I have to admit the my own bias and I
think we were speaking when weheard about the crash.
And I think we were speakingwhen we heard about the crash.
I heard the president'sstatements about DEI and I
(10:15):
immediately thought the pilotsmay look a particular way and
that was what caused thestatement about DEI and I was
wrong.
Karen McFarlane (10:44):
And I was wrong , they all presented to be
people that at least thepresident and his administration
would, I believe, find to behighly capable and competent
people, because they were allwhite men.
Yeah, well, I have to admitthat's what I thought too,
because, you know, theconversation around this has
been primarily that DEI equalsrace and then secondarily,
gender, right, and I thoughtthat too, because that because,
(11:04):
if he's talking, that's what Ithink he's talking about and was
surprised to learn that he wastalking about a whole different
group that is inclusive of whitepeople, because white people
can be disabled.
So it was really interesting tosee him, I think for one of the
(11:25):
very first times.
Well, that's not true, becausehe mocked them during his
candidacy for the previouselection.
So, you know, but it's not asprevalent as you know the, you
know other things that he'stalked about.
So I also found myself like kindof falling into that exact same
(11:45):
trap, right, right, and so itwas like we have to still, like
we all have to still retrainourselves.
So it's it's easy to see howother people can kind of fall
into that trap If we as, aspeople who are very focused on
DEI, do it too.
So if you didn't, you know,you're forgiven and everybody
(12:06):
out there is forgiven.
Brittany S. Hale (12:07):
We just need to do that and to that point
it's being forgiven, andcontinuing to stay curious and
say, huh, okay, let me unpackthat Right.
Karen McFarlane (12:19):
Exactly, exactly, and so we're seeing
that play out now on an evenbroader scale, right?
So we see that he was talkingabout.
When he talked about DEI, itwasn't just race, it was women,
and I think some women didn'treally believe it was really
women, right, it was.
(12:39):
But now they're they're seeingevidence of that.
We just talked about disabledpeople.
Veterans were seeing that popup right, like we're seeing
certain groups, like theVenezuelans, right, for example,
who were very pro-Trump that hewas also talking about them,
(13:03):
right, and maybe they would havestill voted the way that they
voted.
Something tells me that, ifthey thought it was going to
affect them negatively, I thinkthat most people, if they
thought that these things weregoing to affect them negatively,
may have reconsidered orthought differently about their
approach to their vote.
And he was dishonest let's justbe honest about what his
(13:25):
positions were but it's a hugewake up call for a lot of
different groups here.
Brittany S. Hale (13:32):
Yes, yes, and that is the point.
I'm so glad you brought that up, because to anyone listening
listening who may think thatthey don't occupy a particular
group, that fits within DEI,you're probably mistaken,
(13:54):
because DEI covers white people,black people, latin people,
asian people, right All, allraces, all genders,
non-conforming people, peoplewho are binary, people who are
(14:20):
veterans, people who aredisabled, people who have
invisible disabilities, peoplewho are able-bodied, people who
believe in progress andinnovation, people who are
parents, people who arecaregivers, people who are
caregivers of parents.
I mean, I could go on, I won't,but the point being is, 99.9%
(14:46):
of people fit within some ofthose categories that I
mentioned.
Karen McFarlane (14:54):
Absolutely.
I mean, let's talk aboutparents for a second.
Yes, so incredibly universal tomany people, not everybody.
Yes, so incredibly universal tomany people, not everybody.
But the fact that you havechanging tables in bathrooms,
the fact that you have familybathrooms, the fact that you
(15:16):
have lactation rooms, the factthat you have parental leave,
family leave right, all of thesethings help you and your
families.
They support you in meaningfulways.
Brittany S. Hale (15:40):
It being extended to the non-birthing
parent right, which is why we'recalling it parental leave
versus paternity leave Extendedto parents who adopt Right IVF
right, even being covered.
Karen McFarlane (15:55):
I think in some cases it can be covered, but in
all cases right, all of thesedifferent things right.
They're in support of helpingyou be able to do something,
something that's more convenientfor you, so you have a, your
quality of life is better, orsomething that you can't do,
(16:15):
like IVF, for example.
That's going to help you buildyour families and give you a
different opportunity in lifeand that's by no fault of your
own right.
It's helping you through.
So, like you said, brittany,everybody kind of fits in that
(16:38):
definition.
You know of DEI and you knowI've been hearing a lot on the
news.
You know you have the punditskind of just vacillating about,
like what's going on in theworld, and one of them talked
about the fact that you knowthat white men are very fearful
(17:03):
and that's where some of this iscoming from and I'm like, well,
that's interesting, but theyalso fit under this category
because all of theintersectionality, right.
So what white men are fearful?
Can we define that scope ofwhat the idyllic situation looks
(17:25):
like in America where you don'tneed any layer of DEI?
I would love to know what thatlooks like Absolutely.
Brittany S. Hale (17:36):
Because let's say again and I think it does a
disservice to white men rightFor that to be their only
identity, but let's say you dohave a workforce of solely white
men, you're going to havepeople still different abilities
, different hair colors,different you know, what I mean,
(17:57):
and we don't.
We would not want their howthey look to replace what they
could do Exactly.
And so, in an odd way, we allagree that the way a person
(18:19):
looks should not speak to theirability Mm-hmm.
Some of us are just a bit more,I would say, forthright about
that than others Mm-hmm Rightabout that, than others, mm-hmm
Right.
So when we're talking about so,I kind of want to go back to
(18:46):
these frameworks and theseoperating systems.
Yep, I'll share three that I'veworked with.
I know that you are incrediblywell-versed and well-studied in
this as well, so I'd love tohear your perspective.
And just really quickly.
So I worked with collectiveaccountability frameworks,
(19:10):
intervention-based frameworksand systemic change frameworks.
Okay, so for those who areunaware, collective
accountability is exactly whatit sounds like.
So if we take an organization,this particular framework would
seek to make everyone within theorganization responsible for
(19:34):
advancing DEI.
Karen McFarlane (19:36):
DEI.
Brittany S. Hale (19:37):
Whether you are a first-year associate,
whether you are in the C-suiteor you're somewhere in the
middle, everyone is aware of andaccountable to DEI within that
organization.
So I've said you know,trickle-down economics may not
work, but trickle-down culturedoes right.
(19:59):
So that looks like your CEOs,like at a Costco or at a JP
Morgan, saying we're not gettingrid of these frameworks, these
systems.
We found them to be highlybeneficial, highly lucrative and
(20:19):
we're going to continue.
And that is echoed at everylevel, not only verbally but
through practice.
Right, you haveintervention-based and that's
where you take notice.
Whether it's throughrecruitment promotion, something
(20:43):
happens where we say, huh, werealize that we don't have any
women in the C-suite, we realizethat our marketing teams are
not very diverse in their globalexperience and develop models
(21:09):
and systems to shift that.
So from a recruitment piece itcould be we realize that we've
only recruited from threeschools.
Does this make sense?
And should we expand our reachto see the types of talent that
(21:30):
we may be missing out on?
Right, race and gender is notpart of that conversation, right
?
Karen McFarlane (21:39):
No, I didn't hear it yet.
Brittany S. Hale (21:40):
Yeah, but that's what it is.
And then, finally, you havesystemic change frameworks,
which, again, that's where,exactly as it sounds, you want
to change the system as a whole.
That's where you're looking atpolicies and procedures.
You're looking at corporategovernance procedures.
You're looking at corporategovernance.
Karen McFarlane (22:01):
you're looking at maybe even you know the
opportunity to leveragelegislation to advance this
within your organization.
So I'll pause there.
Yeah, I mean it feels verycyclical in my view, right, like
you kind of explained it,linear, but it's just a circle.
(22:21):
So it starts like you just said.
It starts with what the mandateis at the top and then
everybody understands themandate and looks at their
respective areas to figure outwhere they can make improvements
.
So that's the interventionpiece and then as you start to
look at those and everybody'sidentifying areas of opportunity
(22:45):
to improve, based on themandate from the collective
accountability structure, thenyou are putting in more
permanent measures, systemicpermanent measures, so that
you're not doing one-offs.
It just becomes part of theendless loop of productivity or
accountability Sorry,accountability.
(23:06):
So I think that's incrediblysimple to think through right,
it's what people do for theirdata, like for other problems
and situations.
For other problems andsituations, it's just about
(23:33):
applying it to culture and howyou want to represent your
culture for your organization,and I think that's incredibly
helpful to think about it inthose terms.
Brittany S. Hale (23:40):
What do you think for anyone listening who
says, yes, we want to keep DEIor we want to keep an eye on DEI
, focus on DEI within ourorganization.
What do you think some of theirbiggest challenges are outside
(24:04):
of legislative shifts, becausewe know for nonprofits that can
be an issue.
Any organization that'sreceiving any sort of federal
funding, that could be an issue.
But just within theorganization, within, let's say,
having conversation with keystakeholders.
Karen McFarlane (24:23):
So I had this conversation the other day,
actually, and we were talkingabout marketing, and one of the
comments that I made was Iactually don't think, whether
you call it DEI or not, becausethat's a different conversation
anything actually changes formarketers Because, at the end of
(24:46):
the day, a marketer's job is toknow their customer but also
assist in growing the business.
If your business requires morecustomers, right, then I don't
think any business is in thebusiness of saying we don't want
(25:08):
this particular customer basedon their physical
characteristics, for example,unless they make clothes for
people that are five, two andunder petite clothes only, right
, for example.
Right, but they're not in thatbusiness.
They're in the business ofunderstanding what motivates
(25:32):
people to purchase their product, what problem they're trying to
solve for certain personas,right, but it's not typically
based on some physicalcharacteristic, with some
exception, don't get me wrong.
And so segmentation inmarketing, for example, it has.
It's just been a thing that wedo, right, we're supposed to
(25:54):
segment our customers by certaincharacteristics and that's how
we grow the business, soexpanding that a little bit more
.
For most companies that we'redealing with, they're global
companies and so not having somesort of cultural intelligence
(26:18):
or cultural competencies on yourteam, whether it's internal or
external talent, is actually anegative, because how are you
going to connect with thosecustomers emotionally, really
understand what problems you'retrying to solve, because they're
not the same for everybody.
Some of those are based onculture or region.
How are you going to tap intothat if you don't build those
(26:40):
competencies on your team?
Even if you are a US company,you are still dealing with
various different cultures.
United States is a your job,right?
And putting out again from amarketing perspective, putting
(27:10):
out content of whatever type Ithink a lot of most of marketing
is a ton of content of whatevertype is about appealing to that
persona in a very specific way,and we also know
personalization is a key driverof engagement, and so how do you
personalize that content in ameaningful way?
(27:31):
So I don't actually think itchanges that much in that
respect.
You zero out a little bit morefrom a leadership perspective,
right.
I think your biggest challengeis how do you communicate that
(27:53):
nothing's changed, although somethings have changed in a way
that doesn't look like and theseare for people who want to do
DX it doesn't look like you arebacking out of your goal for
inclusion and belonging, becauseI think all businesses
(28:14):
understand that at least, at thevery least, the people that
work there need to be connectedto you in some way in order for
them to be productive and beinnovative.
So how you do that within thisnew world order can be tricky if
(28:39):
you don't have the support fromyour, you know, board of
directors, or if you're justresponding to external pressures
, because we see some companiesscrubbing some pieces of
information from their website,but does that necessarily mean
they've given up on all of DEI?
Well, that remains to be seen.
So I think that's a bigchallenge is the communication
(29:02):
piece, which is always achallenge, like communication is
, like, I think, one of thebiggest challenges in every
single corporation ever, becauseyou can never find the right
way to say the right thing toevery single person.
So I think that's it.
And the other part too is justand we talked about this before
it's like standing on your ownbusiness, like you know
(29:25):
ultimately how to run yourbusiness and what's good for
your business, and if you forsome reason feel like people not
feeling included, like you wantto run a you know one size fits
all factory for your business,like you think that makes sense
for you.
Well, go ahead.
You have actually the right todo that and it may be successful
(29:48):
for you, but in many othercompanies it's not going to be.
What do you think thechallenges are?
Brittany S. Hale (29:58):
I think first, I think that was perfectly
stated and I'm just I guess thisis, this is the crux of it.
This is what makes sense.
You can't have, you can't be um.
Create this personalizedexperience that people relate to
, while also trying to deny whatmakes it personal to them.
(30:27):
I would say, especially as itpertains to leaders Leaders
there's a certain level ofcandor that is going to be
required to maintain and deepenthe trust between leadership and
(30:49):
teams.
There have been people who areemailing their resumes to
leadership you know to say I amnot a DEI hire and that's the
wrong approach, as I see it,because that person is doing it
(31:16):
because they're afraid.
They're afraid or they don'tlike what could happen to them.
Right what could happen to them.
Right, and the way that I wouldlook at it is that should not
(31:39):
ever be an issue.
The fact that you were hired isdemonstrative of leadership's
belief in your ability, butthere should be proactive
communications and ongoingcommunications from leadership
about what DEI means, the valuethat it brings to the
organization and tying itdirectly back to business goals.
(32:02):
How does creating ERGs, forexample, further our business
goals?
Ergs, for example, further ourbusiness goals?
How does expanding into globalmarkets further our business
goals?
And how can we moreauthentically show up for these
(32:23):
markets, both existing and, youknow, the markets that we have
our eyes on?
We have to do that throughrepeated practice, and we have
to do that.
People have to be able to trustthat their experience of the
brand will be comparable to theexperience that other people
(32:44):
have had, To your point, thatthey can see themselves
reflected in it, that they canget what they believe they need
from the organization.
So that doesn't happen if theorganization isn't communicating
internally.
(33:04):
The team should not besurprised by any marketing
pushes or any of the you knowany of the headlines that we've
been bombarded with Six weeks.
No one should be surprised bythat.
Karen McFarlane (33:29):
I mean, I agree with you.
I think one of the things thathas been a challenge is the
measuring of those CEI goals andladdering them challenge, and
(33:50):
you know you can't.
It's hard to keep something andjustify something when you
haven't been able to measure it,and that's been tricky.
But also, at the same time, youknow a lot of these
organizations.
Not that many of them weren'tthinking about it before, right,
but since 2020, it just kind ofreally surfaced in a way where
(34:14):
they also had to report on it,right, and so they really only
had a short time to try tofigure out how to measure it in
a way that made sense for thebusiness or laddered up to some
of these external benchmarkreports and things of that
nature.
So, in their defense, in someof the company's defenses, you
(34:36):
know that they haven't hadenough time to do it.
Those that could rally someresources around it have been
able to prove that it has abenefit on their organization in
a very meaningful way, or theyfolded it in into their like
they didn't separate it out, itwas just, it's just part of
their DNA, and so they lean intotheir DNA, um, and so you're
(35:12):
right.
So this, this opportunity fordismantling it.
Yeah, um, and also, peoplehadn't didn't fully understand
it, right?
Because, I mean, we'reliterally still teaching people
what the acronym means, andbecause we turn it into an
(35:34):
acronym, the weight of itbecomes lighter, so there's all
sorts of things.
Brittany S. Hale (35:42):
Absolutely, and I would love for you to kind
of to just emphasize the pointabout benchmarking Because,
again, I'm not a quant Numbersare important and they tell a
story, but you still needcontext around that story, right
(36:35):
?
So if you take a snapshot bitmore for people who want to
understand the point of havingbenchmarks,
Karen McFarlane (36:43):
Well, one of the biggest questions that I
heard or got over the years,past few years is how do I know
if I'm doing well?
And they wanted to look atother companies to understand
where they stacked up so thatthey could create goals for
(37:03):
themselves.
Right, and benchmark.
We do bet, you know you dobenchmarking and so many other
aspects of other uh, the othersides of your business that that
becomes like a very naturalquestion, like, especially if
you're starting from scratch,like I'm, where am I, is this
good and where do I need to beso I know how to chart my goals,
what kinds of investments Ineed to make to get there, you
(37:26):
know in one year, two year, fiveyears, right, years, right,
whatever that is.
So I mean that, I think, isreally the impetus for
benchmarking, like you said,like, unless you have the
narrative around that, becauseyou can have a company that, um,
they've been doing this for 20years.
(37:48):
They just might not have beencalling it DEI, right, they
started to measure it.
So they're much further alongin the process than you that had
just started.
So you also need to understandrelative to where you are.
Maybe it's based on your annualrevenue, years in business,
number of employees, things ofthat nature, like how do you
(38:11):
kind of stack up?
So you know it's a useful tool,but it shouldn't stop you from
progress.
So your story, like you said,is your story.
What's right for your businessis right for your business, even
if you're looking at 10 otherbusinesses that are somewhat
like you, for example, or ahundred other businesses are
(38:33):
somewhat like you, they're notyou, and so you have to build
your own goals around where youthink you need to be in a year,
three years, five years, 10years, and map them to your
business goals.
Because, while some aspects ofany part of your business are
(39:00):
amorphous right, you can'treally measure their soft
metrics, right, there are somevery specific metrics that
everybody has to come up with,no matter where they are.
What are those?
And just start and start tobuild on that and, just like you
(39:21):
, take into account the softerelements of your business,
figure out how you express thoseright.
So, for like for marketing,well, there's a lot of different
metrics, but we have to showhow we've contributed to the
business, and that's going to bein hard dollars and cents, but
(39:41):
also things like brand awareness.
Now, some of that can bemeasured based on sentiment and
some brand analysis, but some ofthat is really not as specific,
right, or just you know as youwould like it to be and you
drive a narrative.
Brittany S. Hale (40:00):
Absolutely.
I was just thinking.
You have groups.
We've talked about parents andcaregivers groups.
We talked about parents andcaregivers.
Those groups could easily beconnected to an organization's
sustainability goals mm-hmm,which could easily be connected
(40:22):
to retention rates.
Right, just those three pointsthere.
How are these parents?
How are they thinking about thefuture?
Why are they here?
What is it about?
How we're showing up forsustainability that not only
attracted them here, but keepsthem here, and how can we
(40:45):
guarantee that these people whoare willing to work in
furtherance of our goals aregoing to stay here?
Karen McFarlane (40:55):
Absolutely.
So, yeah, and that's just likeyou said.
That's just one element.
There's a few data points andlisten, companies figure out how
to measure the darndest things.
You're right, they can figureit out and it's okay.
Like you might be a pioneer ina particular area and be a
(41:16):
pioneer, go talk to people abouthow they're measuring it, share
how you're, you know, thinkingabout this and help people along
.
Like we don't have to alwayshave everything completely
figured out before we startdoing it.
We can evolve a lot of ourpractices.
(41:36):
It's called innovation.
Brittany S. Hale (41:41):
And I think that lends to trust.
Yes, yes, absolutely.
If I know that you're startingand that there's room to grow
and there's room for me to sharemy view, I'm more invested in
seeing you get to the next point.
Karen McFarlane (42:02):
Yes, and helping you get there.
Yes, I mean part of the train,you know.
Yes, I mean part of the train,you know.
So I think the message we Ihope that we're leaving our
listeners with is you don't haveto stop.
You can keep going, obviouslywithin the parameters of your
(42:28):
organization, obviously withinthe parameters of your
organization, but beinginclusive is really not optional
.
Going back to your frameworks,right, collective accountability
(42:50):
, intervention and oh shoot,systemic change, right.
Even in your small like, let'sjust say you work in one
department and you're a managerin one department hiring, like
maybe you're a hiring manager inone department, it can start
with just you thinking aboutyour team, what's best for your
(43:13):
team, right, what kind of skillsets you need, what type of
leadership capabilities that youneed, and you start with that
and then you think about youknow you are a manager that's
like focused on DEI principles.
You think about how you bringthat level of diversity and
(43:35):
diversity of people, diversityof thought, however you want to
call it right Into your team andin the work that you're
producing and you measure itright.
You can just start with justyou.
You don't necessarily need ahuge mandate from the top.
You don't need the words DEIplastered on the website.
(44:00):
Dei is you, because you arerepresentative of it, except for
that small microcosm of peoplethat we talked about, that we
need to identify.
You are a product of it and youneed to extend that grace to
other people.
That's what I think.
Mic drop, I'm not goinganywhere, so we will see what
(44:25):
the world brings us this week.
No, but the listeners havetheir marching orders, I know,
but the listeners have theirmarching orders.
Brittany S. Hale (44:33):
Yes, you have homework.
I'm sure you didn't think thatyou would, but you do yeah.
Karen McFarlane (44:39):
So drop in the comments what you did for your
homework.
Yes, absolutely, until nexttime.
Bye, bye, bye, mina.
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