March 24, 2025 • 36 mins
This International Women's Day, Karen and Brittany delve into a pressing issue: the federal government's removal of terms like "women," "Black," "Latinx, "mental health," "climate change," "gender" and a host of other words from official communications. They share personal stories of influential women in their lives—mothers balancing careers and family, grandmothers demanding respect in the Jim Crow South, and ancestors whose narratives often go untold—and highlight the importance of recognizing women as whole individuals beyond caregiving roles.
The discussion intensifies as they examine the implications of this linguistic censorship:
- How can we address inequities affecting communities we can no longer name?
- What impact does this have on nonprofit funding for targeted groups?
- How does this policy reflect America's history of undervaluing women's labor and contributions?
Karen and Brittany emphasize that words are foundational to identity, policy, and human dignity. They argue that fighting for language that reflects our full humanity isn't optional—it's essential.
CONTINUING EDUCATION
These Words Are Disappearing in the New Trump Administration
The Pentagon’s DEI purge: Officials describe a scramble to remove and then restore online content
FDA scientists told ‘woman’ and ‘disabled’ are on Trump’s banned word list
White House says it didn't create a banned word list, leaves language choices up to agencies
Stay With Us
- Watch and Subscribe to The E Word on YouTube.
- Follow Karen on LinkedIn and learn more at Colossal Work.
- Follow Brittany on LinkedIn and learn more at BND Consulting Group.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Karen McFarlane (00:01):
Hi, brittany, I'm good, I'm good.
Brittany S. Hale (00:07):
Happy International Women's Day I feel
so fortunate to be partneredwith such an amazing, brilliant,
awesome Kinserian woman.
Karen McFarlane (00:27):
Well, thank you .
The honor is all mine to bepartnered with you.
Brittany S. Hale (00:35):
I was doing some research about
International Women's Day andthere's so many origin points,
which is great, but it justespecially now it feels
important to honor all of thefacets and the experience that
(01:01):
make us us, and being a woman isdefinitely one of them.
Um, I remember being young andI just could not wait to grow up
and just be a woman, and Idon't know.
I was just always surrounded byso many awesome, powerful women
(01:21):
.
That's all I wanted to be, sono, that's that's.
Karen McFarlane (01:28):
I mean, I didn't want to grow up.
I know that for sure.
Um, I was very happy to be caredfor by the wonderful women
around me yeah, I mean,adulthood is vastly overrated,
for sure yeah, exactly, you knowtotally would like to go back
um in my younger capacity, notas an older person that turns
(01:52):
younger, you know, as you getbecome a senior, but no, I mean,
I think it's important toacknowledge, you know the people
that, especially when you'reyounger, maybe you realize that
they were inspirations at thetime, maybe you didn't.
I mean, I think there'sdefinitely people, I think, back
to now, that helped shape me,but I didn't look at it that way
(02:16):
at the time.
But it was important to seethese different people, people
that were like me as women Blackwomen in particular that I
could see myself in and in someways model some aspects of
(02:38):
myself after them.
It's important to be seen inthat way.
It's also important toacknowledge those people that
help shape you.
So they so, they know, so theyknow that they feel good.
I think that people don'trealize, in particular, black
women don't get celebrated andpraised as often as maybe some
other groups, but whether theydo or they don't, it's always
(03:00):
good to know that you made animpact on somebody.
Brittany S. Hale (03:04):
Yes, yes and sharing that is free, right it
doesn't cost anything to sharethat impact.
Karen McFarlane (03:16):
Yeah, yeah.
So first I would want toacknowledge a couple people.
So let me acknowledge my, mymom, for example.
Like you know, obviously shewas around my entire life, right
, and I was talking to someonelast night and I was like I am
(03:37):
so much like my mother in inmany ways that I don't recognize
until I do certain things youknow, and usually the things
that I'm that surface for me.
At the time I felt like theywere annoying and then I do them
and I realized that the reasonI'm doing them is because I care
, right, and so that's whereit's surfaced from and so I
(04:01):
should have grace with that.
She also has been like just avery strong, forward-thinking
figure and she always seesopportunity, she does her
research and even despitegetting older, she wants to keep
(04:22):
her brain young, right, so sheleans into those things that you
know, keep her mind very activeand that she can be a
contributor, ongoing contributorto the family.
There's a lot of things I don'tthink that you know I would have
done without my parents,obviously, but both my mother
(04:43):
who you know, she in her career,is an immigrant, both of my
parents are immigrants fromJamaica and I think one of her
first jobs was in banking.
She didn't want to be a tellerbecause she felt like that was
going to be a stagnant position,so she actually refused the job
as teller, even though she wasin this country without work.
(05:08):
They called her back, I think,the next day to give her more of
a client-facing role and shestayed in banking and she
elevated even after leaving herrole parenting me and then going
back to become one of thebiggest wealth managers on Wall
Street, you know.
(05:28):
So I saw that growth and herability to do both things right,
which I think just I don't knowif I think about that every
single day, but it's justbecause it's part of what I've
seen, but it just makes allthings possible.
Brittany S. Hale (05:48):
I love that.
Love it, karen's mom.
We love and appreciate you.
Thank you for bringing her here, and I would love to similarly
extend that to my mother and mygrandmothers both of whom were
(06:12):
phenomenally progressive and Iwould say important in child
rearing space.
So my mom actually went back toschool when we were young.
So I've experienced her as astay-at-home mom, I've
experienced her as a working momand in both it really cemented
(06:37):
that sense of purpose becausewhatever she did, she was going
to do it really well.
Whatever she did, she was goingto do it really well.
And there were moments whereyou know I'd come home, she'd be
there, there'd be snacks, youknow everything was so well run
that I took it for granted.
Yeah, of course, and with hergoing back to work and seeing
(07:06):
how in retrospect, of course,you know from a child's eyes as
soon as she got home from work,my sister and I were rushing to
tell her everything thathappened with our day and what
we were doing.
And then, of course, my dad'sthere and he's, you know,
sharing with her.
And now, having worked a wholeday, when I come home all I want
is silence.
And so, thinking about how shehad these two kids who were, you
(07:27):
know, looking to be centered, ahusband also looking to be
centered and trying to createthat time for herself, I'm just
like I have no idea how you didit.
My grandmothers, both were inthe medical field.
Both of them had seven children, so I don't even know how.
(07:49):
Both my parents are theyoungest of the seven and for
them, both from differentcommunities, both having
different backgrounds, butgetting to know them as women,
not just in their role you are amother and therefore you take
(08:12):
care of me.
You are my grandmother andtherefore you take care of me.
But later in life, my mother'smother.
I got to know her just havingconversations and she had the
whole life I didn't know about.
You know, I didn't know she wasum.
She was the first black modelfor a um, a department store in
(08:33):
the Southeast.
Oh yeah, and so that was reallyinteresting for her to be
positioned in that role and whatthat meant, and she'd spent
time in New York and there werejust I never knew that.
I just knew that you know shedidn't make these really great
seafood boils every time we wentdown to North Carolina, but
(08:57):
seeing how she advocated forherself, for her children, she
was very well known for standingup for herself.
At one point a man thought it'dbe a good decision to call her
outside of her name.
She chased him down with arifle In all spaces, commanding
(09:25):
respect.
She also had, you know, mixedrace origin and because of how
she appeared being, I would say,commercialized or having people
pay her to touch her hair andjust objectify it in some of the
worst ways, yeah.
(09:48):
And fighting to create a familydespite everything that said
that she couldn't yeah.
Karen McFarlane (09:59):
I think that's amazing right, and this is the
callback to our ancestors, rightthat we need to make on a
regular basis, and I think weneed this to become more a part
of our community, because evenwhat you said about learning who
(10:21):
our relatives are as individualpeople, learning who our
grandmother was as a woman, whoour mother is as a woman, not
just as the person that tookcare of me that's such an
important distinction that wedon't really take time to do.
I think one of my biggestregrets is my grandmother.
(10:42):
She passed, so I didn't know myother grandparents my father's
side.
They died very early on and sodid my grandfather on the other
side, so my grandmother wasreally the one grandparent that
I knew for a period of time andshe ended up having dementia,
ended up having dementia, and soI really never got a chance to
(11:07):
ask her about her life.
Right, I get bits and piecesfrom people like my mother.
Actually, my mother and my auntget bits and pieces and she's
credited, actually, with ourfamily's ability to come over to
America.
Even my dad's side is creditedwith that right.
(11:27):
Like she helped facilitate thatand she came over.
She was married, she had twochildren, but she left.
She came over and got a job onher own as a CNA, I believe or I
don't know if she was a trueCNA when she first started and
you know, that's pretty huge.
And I've learned about, likesome other people and other
(11:50):
older people in my family, likeone of, I guess, my great aunt
was like the first nurse in thearea where she lived, and like
all of those things, and thosethings are lost because we no
longer have a strong oralhistory within our culture, and
it's something I think that'sreally important.
That kind of ties us back towho we are.
(12:13):
We don't call on our ancestors.
It doesn't mean that you can'tstill have the religion that you
practice, right.
Brittany S. Hale (12:25):
Right.
Karen McFarlane (12:26):
You can have that and other spiritual tools
that keep you connected.
Correct?
Brittany S. Hale (12:36):
Yeah, I will say, in the moments when I've
thought about questioning myworth or felt insecure, I
remember where I came from andyou know that my grandmother in
the Jim Crow South was not goingto be condescended to, she was
(12:58):
not going to be disrespected,she was not going to have people
cause harm to her or herchildren and in a time when that
could have meant life or death,that was my reminder like, no,
okay, I can do the thing she waswilling to, quite literally put
(13:20):
her life on the line for hervalues.
I can do it in similar or muchbetter circumstances.
And to your point about thepassing down these stories,
(13:40):
these oral histories that wehave, it just reaffirms how
important words are.
Karen McFarlane (13:47):
Words matter.
Brittany S. Hale (13:48):
Words mean things.
Words communicate a history, alegacy, a worth and an identity.
Yeah, so we're now in a timewhere I think everyone agrees
that words mean things, but itseems like we're dealing in a
(14:13):
space where those words are morepolarizing than ever and people
are taking opposite views ofwhat to do with these words.
Karen McFarlane (14:26):
Well, I think you're putting it nicely,
because we have anadministration that is trying to
erase many of these words thathelp people identify themselves,
(14:48):
right?
The new york times actuallyshared a list, um, the article,
yeah, is these words aredisappearing in the new trump
administration, and it's a longlist of words, but, like, let me
just start with one of the mainones, or we just we've been
talking about.
If we were to have this sameconversation, use the word women
(15:11):
, which is on this list, okay,and not use the word black,
which is on this list, right wecouldn't talk about ourselves.
Brittany S. Hale (15:33):
And this list.
Thank you for sending it over.
So agencies have to limit oravoid these words.
Is that correct?
Yes, Okay, so I'm going toshare some that stuck out to me
(15:57):
and I'd love if you did the same.
So I see accessible belongclean energy, polarization,
pollution, sense of belonging,trauma victim.
(16:24):
I'll just pause there.
I'm jumping over a bunch, butthose are just some, and I bring
those up because, as we'vetalked about, whenever people
think of DEI, they immediatelygo to race and gender.
So, I purposely skipped overanything that could have been
(16:44):
perceived as race or gender.
But yeah, what sticks out toyou.
Karen McFarlane (16:53):
Another one that sticks out to me is mental
health, um, and political,because that word is used all
the time, um.
And what also sticks out to meis what's not on the list, which
(17:15):
is men and which is also white.
So there's black on here,there's Latinx, there's-.
Brittany S. Hale (17:31):
I don't see Asian on here.
Karen McFarlane (17:33):
Indigenous community, you're right.
So Asian's okay.
So white and Asian on here.
Indigenous community, you'reright.
So Asian's okay.
So white and Asian is okay andmen are okay.
So it's okay for us to talkabout those groups, but it's not
okay to talk about the othergroups.
That is what sticks out to meas well.
Brittany S. Hale (17:53):
Identity, the word itself is also.
Karen McFarlane (17:56):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think I mean there's so
many words on here just in thecontext of this conversation.
The fact that women is on thereand men is not Right Just
actually kind of blows my mind.
Like what are we?
And the word and gender is onhere too right For gender,
(18:18):
gender-based, gender-basedviolence, gender diversity,
gender identity, gender ideology, gender affirming care which we
know is very controversial inthis administration and gender.
So we're not supposed to talkabout gender at all and not
specifically women, correct?
(18:42):
But or sex, or sex or sex, right, because LGBTQ and LGBTQ LGBT
is on here as well.
But when we see some of theexamples that they call out from
websites that have been changed, lgb is okay.
(19:05):
So I think one thing we cankind of say kind of in a blanket
way is that I don't know thatthese words have been completely
thought out in terms of thecontext of everything, right?
(19:25):
So if they do say limit oravoid, you know it's not a ban.
I don't think you can ban words, but you could try, but I don't
think you can.
But what happens when youeliminate some of these words
from in the context of thefederal administration, right?
(19:48):
What happens when you removesome of these words?
What happens when you removesome of these words?
How does that affect certaindepartments or policy?
Right?
My big question is okay, on thecensus, are you even doing that
anymore?
Because you can't use thesewords use these words.
Brittany S. Hale (20:19):
Great question .
And if you are a federalorganization giving federal
funds to NGOs, nonprofits, howdo you address a harm toward
underserved communities if youcan't talk about it?
Or underrepresented communities, which can be men, yes, yes,
right, I mean Females, feminism,multicultural, climate crisis.
Karen McFarlane (20:52):
All of these things to your, to that point
that point does it affect onegroup?
I mean, the point has alwaysbeen that certain groups are
more harmed by the samesituations.
It doesn't say that the othergroups are not harmed, like all
(21:13):
groups are harmed by, say,climate change right.
Some groups are harmed more byclimate change right.
And in any business we try tosolve any problem.
Let's just say any problemright, like you're assessing the
risk factors for how you solvethe problem, and the problem is
(21:35):
usually so big that you have tostart to narrow your focus.
So you need to understanddeeper data to figure out where
to start and where to end.
Right.
And in this situation you mightwant to say, hey, let me focus
on where something is doing moreharm and mitigate that first
and step it back.
Or you could say let me focuson where it's doing less harm,
(21:59):
learn from that so that I canimprove something where it's
doing more harm.
I mean, there's different waysto look at it, but you need to
understand and unpack theunderlying factors supporting
that right.
But how do you do it if youdon't have the language to do
that?
To the context to do that?
You don't.
(22:21):
And what does it say to therest of the world?
It's like let's stopacknowledging that women exist.
To your point about thenon-profits, like if they're
focused on women because that'swhat they they're doing, what is
that?
What does that mean?
They no longer get fundingbecause they're focused on women
(22:42):
and they.
I don't understand.
I guess I'm just I'm rambling,I don't understand.
Brittany S. Hale (22:49):
I will say that the united nations
acknowledged internationalwomen's day for the first time
publicly in 1977.
I feel that there arecommittees, whole committees,
that are committed to addressingthe challenges that women face
(23:09):
across the world.
Together, the United States hasenjoyed a particular status,
another band word for some time,as being part of the first
world and having takenparticular approaches toward
(23:39):
women and posturing themselvesright.
The country's postured itselfas having the moral high ground
when it came to providingopportunity, support and freedom
for women.
Because we are a country thatostensibly focuses on freedom,
(24:00):
this seems like anything but andthe question that I posed many
pods ago, many episodes ago whatis the harm?
What's in a word?
What is the harm?
What's, in a word, if, if thewhat clearly you're moving
(24:24):
toward, if this group is trulysuperior, what is the harm in
other groups identifyingthemselves, showing up for
themselves?
What is the harm?
That is something that I justcan't.
(24:45):
I can't understand.
We, at this point, I believe,have more girls right now that
are being born than men we have.
I believe it's around 55% ofthe country is women.
Are we now to release them?
Karen McFarlane (25:09):
Yeah, the answer is yes.
Brittany S. Hale (25:12):
Where do they go?
Where should we be right now,Karen?
Where do they go?
Where should we be?
Karen McFarlane (25:17):
right now.
Well, you know, I think thatpart of the perceived issue is
that, okay, America has enjoyeddifferent forms of free labor
(25:40):
free or low cost labor, rightFor a very long time.
What's not always acknowledgedis part of that free labor is
women.
Yes, so our marriage rates aregenerally lower now.
Right, because part of what wewere tied to in terms of our
(26:00):
future well-being was beingmarried and, you know, having
access to resources and ways tosupport our livelihood and I
can't remember what year it is,but I think it's similar around
the 1970s, right, women couldopen up their bank accounts for
the first time.
Correct, because of that nature.
So that independence startedhappening just basically 50
(26:25):
years ago, right, and so, withwomen being at home taking care
of the children, providing thatfree labor, it allowed men to go
and elevate their stature andbuild and do the things that
they wanted to do, and they wereonly competing with other men
(26:47):
in that regard.
Now that women have surpassedthe original mandate, right,
that competition is raising inmany different ways.
They're no longer home tosupport the males, so less males
are rising up in the same waythat they did before.
They still, depending on who.
You are right, and it's justkind of turned things upside
(27:12):
down for that particular groupand that could be viewed as a
perceived threat to their ownsuccess and existence.
And so if women return to thehome and some of these
(27:33):
traditional values, that opensup more opportunity for them.
Less opportunity for us interms of that growth, but
definitely more opportunity forthem, and maybe that's the long
view.
I don't know, I'm just riffingright now, but I want to just
acknowledge that women haveagain, for a very, very long
(27:54):
time, not been valued for thework that they performed in the
home.
That allowed a lot of you know,america's, you know reputation
and notoriety and growth tohappen.
Brittany S. Hale (28:12):
It's just we've just been cast aside,
that's one view, absolutely,absolutely one view, I, and I
agree with you.
I think about the conversationsthat are kind of being had in
the zeitgeist about the maleloneliness epidemic.
(28:34):
About the male lonelinessepidemic, yeah, and it doesn't
seem, which you know, by thismandate the government wouldn't
even be able to solve becauseit's a mental health situation.
That's true, right.
However, you know, what we'reseeing is a very blatant
(29:00):
demonstration of coercive power.
If we cannot center ourselvesand we will force the exclusion
and exclude is another one ofthe BN words we will force the
exclusion of everyone who is notlike us, and that is a choice,
(29:26):
given that we are positioned.
We have made friends around theworld right We've.
We've again also imposedourself around the world right,
we've again also imposedourselves around the world.
And how do we do that whenthere are women who are leading
(29:49):
countries?
Karen McFarlane (29:52):
Yeah.
Brittany S. Hale (29:54):
We can't speak to humanitarian causes, to
human rights violations, when wevery may well be creating some
right now.
Karen McFarlane (30:10):
Well, yes, but what we have seen is just not
the acknowledgement of thosefacts.
So it's not like, you know,even if we do it, it's not like
we're going to talk about it andact accordingly, like, oh no,
you know, we have ethics.
Ethics seem to be off the tableat this point of view, which is
(30:33):
actually, I think, one of themost frustrating things for me.
At this point of view, which isactually, I think, one of the
most frustrating things for me,it's like no one's being held
truly accountable for theiractions or missteps or, you know
, whatever that's that'shappening in the world today.
And it's just like what ismaddening is that a list like
this could exist at all intoday's society and that it is
(31:00):
unchecked.
Right, like where is and maybeI missed it, so please holler at
me and let me know where is thepushback?
Right on what this means, likewhat the implications are of not
using these words?
Like again, like what policiesis it going to affect?
(31:22):
How does this trickle out tocorporations?
Right, like how I just there'sjust so many things that feel
very open ended, and now it'sjust really this broad case for
everything which we know doesn'twork.
It just you can say you wantput word here for all, right,
(31:51):
and that's cool, it should bethat way, but it doesn't
acknowledge how you get there,what are the barriers to getting
there.
You have to acknowledge the painpoints dead on, and most of
this has to do with people andhow people are treated.
You know, I had a um, I waskind of in a conversation with
(32:13):
chat GPT um, the other day.
Conversation with chat GPT theother day, I was asking it like
how, basically, how do you getrid of bias in people?
Okay, and we had a very long,extensive conversation, but the
(32:33):
short version is too long.
No read, you can't.
That's what Chad JBT said.
You just can't because peoplecome with their own perceived
beliefs and you could takemitigating steps, but it will
(32:54):
never erase it.
It will always be there andthat's why you have to
acknowledge it so that you canaddress it or at least attempt
to try to address it.
If you try to erase it, it justsits below the surface and just
confess itself in differentways.
I thought that was again, I'mgiving you the paraphrased
(33:14):
version, but like, that was veryinsightful.
It was like and I'm like areyou sure?
Be creative?
Like, yeah, actually, you know,and I get it.
Sometimes it hallucinates, butit felt very it was giving me,
(33:35):
it was giving me like examplesof why and all this.
So I just don't, I just don'tknow how this list exists and I
I'm fearful that.
You know, we can't haveconversations like this and talk
about ourselves.
You know, openly.
You know, of course, you and Ican sit on the phone and chat
about our experiences, but oneof the things we like to do is
(33:56):
share them with the world, andso it feels like there's a push
to limit that.
Brittany S. Hale (34:02):
Which is unfortunate, because I find
these conversations deeplyvaluable, as do our listeners.
Yeah, it seems like what'sgoing on is a phrase that tends
to be overused in the startupworld, which is you know, we'll
build the plane as we fly, and Idon't think there's an
(34:25):
acknowledgement of what's lostand how it impacts the people on
the land.
Right, if we're building theplane while we fly, we're
throwing things out withoutconsidering what happens, and,
even though listeners may bescreaming, that's the point,
(34:45):
right?
That is, you know these peoplein power, this is what they want
to do, I would posit.
There are unintended effectsthat even they have not yet
considered.
Karen McFarlane (34:57):
It's not safe, that's.
I mean safety is a real issue.
I mean, you know, in startupland they're usually building
software that's technically notgoing to kill somebody tomorrow.
But when the government's doingthings like this, and you know
they have millions upon millionsof lives around the world in
(35:18):
its hands, there's an extralevel of caution that needs to
be paired with ingenuity that itdoesn't seem as if they're
taking based on the fallout, butI guess there's more to be seen
.
Things change every single day,but I think we, as women have
to fight for our identity.
(35:38):
All of us have to fight for ouridentity, but we as women in
particular, we're half thepopulation, no matter what the
other parts of us are made up of, and we need to assert that
authority.
Agreed, so happy Women'sHistory Month and International
(36:04):
Women's Day.
Brittany S. Hale (36:06):
Yes, same to you.
We will continue to honor women.
Karen McFarlane (36:10):
Absolutely Well , until the next time, bye, bye.
Hi, brittany, I'm good, I'm good.
Brittany S. Hale (00:07):
Happy International Women's Day I feel
so fortunate to be partneredwith such an amazing, brilliant,
awesome Kinserian woman.
Karen McFarlane (00:27):
Well, thank you .
The honor is all mine to bepartnered with you.
Brittany S. Hale (00:35):
I was doing some research about
International Women's Day andthere's so many origin points,
which is great, but it justespecially now it feels
important to honor all of thefacets and the experience that
(01:01):
make us us, and being a woman isdefinitely one of them.
Um, I remember being young andI just could not wait to grow up
and just be a woman, and Idon't know.
I was just always surrounded byso many awesome, powerful women
(01:21):
.
That's all I wanted to be, sono, that's that's.
Karen McFarlane (01:28):
I mean, I didn't want to grow up.
I know that for sure.
Um, I was very happy to be caredfor by the wonderful women
around me yeah, I mean,adulthood is vastly overrated,
for sure yeah, exactly, you knowtotally would like to go back
um in my younger capacity, notas an older person that turns
(01:52):
younger, you know, as you getbecome a senior, but no, I mean,
I think it's important toacknowledge, you know the people
that, especially when you'reyounger, maybe you realize that
they were inspirations at thetime, maybe you didn't.
I mean, I think there'sdefinitely people, I think, back
to now, that helped shape me,but I didn't look at it that way
(02:16):
at the time.
But it was important to seethese different people, people
that were like me as women Blackwomen in particular that I
could see myself in and in someways model some aspects of
(02:38):
myself after them.
It's important to be seen inthat way.
It's also important toacknowledge those people that
help shape you.
So they so, they know, so theyknow that they feel good.
I think that people don'trealize, in particular, black
women don't get celebrated andpraised as often as maybe some
other groups, but whether theydo or they don't, it's always
(03:00):
good to know that you made animpact on somebody.
Brittany S. Hale (03:04):
Yes, yes and sharing that is free, right it
doesn't cost anything to sharethat impact.
Karen McFarlane (03:16):
Yeah, yeah.
So first I would want toacknowledge a couple people.
So let me acknowledge my, mymom, for example.
Like you know, obviously shewas around my entire life, right
, and I was talking to someonelast night and I was like I am
(03:37):
so much like my mother in inmany ways that I don't recognize
until I do certain things youknow, and usually the things
that I'm that surface for me.
At the time I felt like theywere annoying and then I do them
and I realized that the reasonI'm doing them is because I care
, right, and so that's whereit's surfaced from and so I
(04:01):
should have grace with that.
She also has been like just avery strong, forward-thinking
figure and she always seesopportunity, she does her
research and even despitegetting older, she wants to keep
(04:22):
her brain young, right, so sheleans into those things that you
know, keep her mind very activeand that she can be a
contributor, ongoing contributorto the family.
There's a lot of things I don'tthink that you know I would have
done without my parents,obviously, but both my mother
(04:43):
who you know, she in her career,is an immigrant, both of my
parents are immigrants fromJamaica and I think one of her
first jobs was in banking.
She didn't want to be a tellerbecause she felt like that was
going to be a stagnant position,so she actually refused the job
as teller, even though she wasin this country without work.
(05:08):
They called her back, I think,the next day to give her more of
a client-facing role and shestayed in banking and she
elevated even after leaving herrole parenting me and then going
back to become one of thebiggest wealth managers on Wall
Street, you know.
(05:28):
So I saw that growth and herability to do both things right,
which I think just I don't knowif I think about that every
single day, but it's justbecause it's part of what I've
seen, but it just makes allthings possible.
Brittany S. Hale (05:48):
I love that.
Love it, karen's mom.
We love and appreciate you.
Thank you for bringing her here, and I would love to similarly
extend that to my mother and mygrandmothers both of whom were
(06:12):
phenomenally progressive and Iwould say important in child
rearing space.
So my mom actually went back toschool when we were young.
So I've experienced her as astay-at-home mom, I've
experienced her as a working momand in both it really cemented
(06:37):
that sense of purpose becausewhatever she did, she was going
to do it really well.
Whatever she did, she was goingto do it really well.
And there were moments whereyou know I'd come home, she'd be
there, there'd be snacks, youknow everything was so well run
that I took it for granted.
Yeah, of course, and with hergoing back to work and seeing
(07:06):
how in retrospect, of course,you know from a child's eyes as
soon as she got home from work,my sister and I were rushing to
tell her everything thathappened with our day and what
we were doing.
And then, of course, my dad'sthere and he's, you know,
sharing with her.
And now, having worked a wholeday, when I come home all I want
is silence.
And so, thinking about how shehad these two kids who were, you
(07:27):
know, looking to be centered, ahusband also looking to be
centered and trying to createthat time for herself, I'm just
like I have no idea how you didit.
My grandmothers, both were inthe medical field.
Both of them had seven children, so I don't even know how.
(07:49):
Both my parents are theyoungest of the seven and for
them, both from differentcommunities, both having
different backgrounds, butgetting to know them as women,
not just in their role you are amother and therefore you take
(08:12):
care of me.
You are my grandmother andtherefore you take care of me.
But later in life, my mother'smother.
I got to know her just havingconversations and she had the
whole life I didn't know about.
You know, I didn't know she wasum.
She was the first black modelfor a um, a department store in
(08:33):
the Southeast.
Oh yeah, and so that was reallyinteresting for her to be
positioned in that role and whatthat meant, and she'd spent
time in New York and there werejust I never knew that.
I just knew that you know shedidn't make these really great
seafood boils every time we wentdown to North Carolina, but
(08:57):
seeing how she advocated forherself, for her children, she
was very well known for standingup for herself.
At one point a man thought it'dbe a good decision to call her
outside of her name.
She chased him down with arifle In all spaces, commanding
(09:25):
respect.
She also had, you know, mixedrace origin and because of how
she appeared being, I would say,commercialized or having people
pay her to touch her hair andjust objectify it in some of the
worst ways, yeah.
(09:48):
And fighting to create a familydespite everything that said
that she couldn't yeah.
Karen McFarlane (09:59):
I think that's amazing right, and this is the
callback to our ancestors, rightthat we need to make on a
regular basis, and I think weneed this to become more a part
of our community, because evenwhat you said about learning who
(10:21):
our relatives are as individualpeople, learning who our
grandmother was as a woman, whoour mother is as a woman, not
just as the person that tookcare of me that's such an
important distinction that wedon't really take time to do.
I think one of my biggestregrets is my grandmother.
(10:42):
She passed, so I didn't know myother grandparents my father's
side.
They died very early on and sodid my grandfather on the other
side, so my grandmother wasreally the one grandparent that
I knew for a period of time andshe ended up having dementia,
ended up having dementia, and soI really never got a chance to
(11:07):
ask her about her life.
Right, I get bits and piecesfrom people like my mother.
Actually, my mother and my auntget bits and pieces and she's
credited, actually, with ourfamily's ability to come over to
America.
Even my dad's side is creditedwith that right.
(11:27):
Like she helped facilitate thatand she came over.
She was married, she had twochildren, but she left.
She came over and got a job onher own as a CNA, I believe or I
don't know if she was a trueCNA when she first started and
you know, that's pretty huge.
And I've learned about, likesome other people and other
(11:50):
older people in my family, likeone of, I guess, my great aunt
was like the first nurse in thearea where she lived, and like
all of those things, and thosethings are lost because we no
longer have a strong oralhistory within our culture, and
it's something I think that'sreally important.
That kind of ties us back towho we are.
(12:13):
We don't call on our ancestors.
It doesn't mean that you can'tstill have the religion that you
practice, right.
Brittany S. Hale (12:25):
Right.
Karen McFarlane (12:26):
You can have that and other spiritual tools
that keep you connected.
Correct?
Brittany S. Hale (12:36):
Yeah, I will say, in the moments when I've
thought about questioning myworth or felt insecure, I
remember where I came from andyou know that my grandmother in
the Jim Crow South was not goingto be condescended to, she was
(12:58):
not going to be disrespected,she was not going to have people
cause harm to her or herchildren and in a time when that
could have meant life or death,that was my reminder like, no,
okay, I can do the thing she waswilling to, quite literally put
(13:20):
her life on the line for hervalues.
I can do it in similar or muchbetter circumstances.
And to your point about thepassing down these stories,
(13:40):
these oral histories that wehave, it just reaffirms how
important words are.
Karen McFarlane (13:47):
Words matter.
Brittany S. Hale (13:48):
Words mean things.
Words communicate a history, alegacy, a worth and an identity.
Yeah, so we're now in a timewhere I think everyone agrees
that words mean things, but itseems like we're dealing in a
(14:13):
space where those words are morepolarizing than ever and people
are taking opposite views ofwhat to do with these words.
Karen McFarlane (14:26):
Well, I think you're putting it nicely,
because we have anadministration that is trying to
erase many of these words thathelp people identify themselves,
(14:48):
right?
The new york times actuallyshared a list, um, the article,
yeah, is these words aredisappearing in the new trump
administration, and it's a longlist of words, but, like, let me
just start with one of the mainones, or we just we've been
talking about.
If we were to have this sameconversation, use the word women
(15:11):
, which is on this list, okay,and not use the word black,
which is on this list, right wecouldn't talk about ourselves.
Brittany S. Hale (15:33):
And this list.
Thank you for sending it over.
So agencies have to limit oravoid these words.
Is that correct?
Yes, Okay, so I'm going toshare some that stuck out to me
(15:57):
and I'd love if you did the same.
So I see accessible belongclean energy, polarization,
pollution, sense of belonging,trauma victim.
(16:24):
I'll just pause there.
I'm jumping over a bunch, butthose are just some, and I bring
those up because, as we'vetalked about, whenever people
think of DEI, they immediatelygo to race and gender.
So, I purposely skipped overanything that could have been
(16:44):
perceived as race or gender.
But yeah, what sticks out toyou.
Karen McFarlane (16:53):
Another one that sticks out to me is mental
health, um, and political,because that word is used all
the time, um.
And what also sticks out to meis what's not on the list, which
(17:15):
is men and which is also white.
So there's black on here,there's Latinx, there's-.
Brittany S. Hale (17:31):
I don't see Asian on here.
Karen McFarlane (17:33):
Indigenous community, you're right.
So Asian's okay.
So white and Asian on here.
Indigenous community, you'reright.
So Asian's okay.
So white and Asian is okay andmen are okay.
So it's okay for us to talkabout those groups, but it's not
okay to talk about the othergroups.
That is what sticks out to meas well.
Brittany S. Hale (17:53):
Identity, the word itself is also.
Karen McFarlane (17:56):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think I mean there's so
many words on here just in thecontext of this conversation.
The fact that women is on thereand men is not Right Just
actually kind of blows my mind.
Like what are we?
And the word and gender is onhere too right For gender,
(18:18):
gender-based, gender-basedviolence, gender diversity,
gender identity, gender ideology, gender affirming care which we
know is very controversial inthis administration and gender.
So we're not supposed to talkabout gender at all and not
specifically women, correct?
(18:42):
But or sex, or sex or sex, right, because LGBTQ and LGBTQ LGBT
is on here as well.
But when we see some of theexamples that they call out from
websites that have been changed, lgb is okay.
(19:05):
So I think one thing we cankind of say kind of in a blanket
way is that I don't know thatthese words have been completely
thought out in terms of thecontext of everything, right?
(19:25):
So if they do say limit oravoid, you know it's not a ban.
I don't think you can ban words, but you could try, but I don't
think you can.
But what happens when youeliminate some of these words
from in the context of thefederal administration, right?
(19:48):
What happens when you removesome of these words?
What happens when you removesome of these words?
How does that affect certaindepartments or policy?
Right?
My big question is okay, on thecensus, are you even doing that
anymore?
Because you can't use thesewords use these words.
Brittany S. Hale (20:19):
Great question .
And if you are a federalorganization giving federal
funds to NGOs, nonprofits, howdo you address a harm toward
underserved communities if youcan't talk about it?
Or underrepresented communities, which can be men, yes, yes,
right, I mean Females, feminism,multicultural, climate crisis.
Karen McFarlane (20:52):
All of these things to your, to that point
that point does it affect onegroup?
I mean, the point has alwaysbeen that certain groups are
more harmed by the samesituations.
It doesn't say that the othergroups are not harmed, like all
(21:13):
groups are harmed by, say,climate change right.
Some groups are harmed more byclimate change right.
And in any business we try tosolve any problem.
Let's just say any problemright, like you're assessing the
risk factors for how you solvethe problem, and the problem is
(21:35):
usually so big that you have tostart to narrow your focus.
So you need to understanddeeper data to figure out where
to start and where to end.
Right.
And in this situation you mightwant to say, hey, let me focus
on where something is doing moreharm and mitigate that first
and step it back.
Or you could say let me focuson where it's doing less harm,
(21:59):
learn from that so that I canimprove something where it's
doing more harm.
I mean, there's different waysto look at it, but you need to
understand and unpack theunderlying factors supporting
that right.
But how do you do it if youdon't have the language to do
that?
To the context to do that?
You don't.
(22:21):
And what does it say to therest of the world?
It's like let's stopacknowledging that women exist.
To your point about thenon-profits, like if they're
focused on women because that'swhat they they're doing, what is
that?
What does that mean?
They no longer get fundingbecause they're focused on women
(22:42):
and they.
I don't understand.
I guess I'm just I'm rambling,I don't understand.
Brittany S. Hale (22:49):
I will say that the united nations
acknowledged internationalwomen's day for the first time
publicly in 1977.
I feel that there arecommittees, whole committees,
that are committed to addressingthe challenges that women face
(23:09):
across the world.
Together, the United States hasenjoyed a particular status,
another band word for some time,as being part of the first
world and having takenparticular approaches toward
(23:39):
women and posturing themselvesright.
The country's postured itselfas having the moral high ground
when it came to providingopportunity, support and freedom
for women.
Because we are a country thatostensibly focuses on freedom,
(24:00):
this seems like anything but andthe question that I posed many
pods ago, many episodes ago whatis the harm?
What's in a word?
What is the harm?
What's, in a word, if, if thewhat clearly you're moving
(24:24):
toward, if this group is trulysuperior, what is the harm in
other groups identifyingthemselves, showing up for
themselves?
What is the harm?
That is something that I justcan't.
(24:45):
I can't understand.
We, at this point, I believe,have more girls right now that
are being born than men we have.
I believe it's around 55% ofthe country is women.
Are we now to release them?
Karen McFarlane (25:09):
Yeah, the answer is yes.
Brittany S. Hale (25:12):
Where do they go?
Where should we be right now,Karen?
Where do they go?
Where should we be?
Karen McFarlane (25:17):
right now.
Well, you know, I think thatpart of the perceived issue is
that, okay, America has enjoyeddifferent forms of free labor
(25:40):
free or low cost labor, rightFor a very long time.
What's not always acknowledgedis part of that free labor is
women.
Yes, so our marriage rates aregenerally lower now.
Right, because part of what wewere tied to in terms of our
(26:00):
future well-being was beingmarried and, you know, having
access to resources and ways tosupport our livelihood and I
can't remember what year it is,but I think it's similar around
the 1970s, right, women couldopen up their bank accounts for
the first time.
Correct, because of that nature.
So that independence startedhappening just basically 50
(26:25):
years ago, right, and so, withwomen being at home taking care
of the children, providing thatfree labor, it allowed men to go
and elevate their stature andbuild and do the things that
they wanted to do, and they wereonly competing with other men
(26:47):
in that regard.
Now that women have surpassedthe original mandate, right,
that competition is raising inmany different ways.
They're no longer home tosupport the males, so less males
are rising up in the same waythat they did before.
They still, depending on who.
You are right, and it's justkind of turned things upside
(27:12):
down for that particular groupand that could be viewed as a
perceived threat to their ownsuccess and existence.
And so if women return to thehome and some of these
(27:33):
traditional values, that opensup more opportunity for them.
Less opportunity for us interms of that growth, but
definitely more opportunity forthem, and maybe that's the long
view.
I don't know, I'm just riffingright now, but I want to just
acknowledge that women haveagain, for a very, very long
(27:54):
time, not been valued for thework that they performed in the
home.
That allowed a lot of you know,america's, you know reputation
and notoriety and growth tohappen.
Brittany S. Hale (28:12):
It's just we've just been cast aside,
that's one view, absolutely,absolutely one view, I, and I
agree with you.
I think about the conversationsthat are kind of being had in
the zeitgeist about the maleloneliness epidemic.
(28:34):
About the male lonelinessepidemic, yeah, and it doesn't
seem, which you know, by thismandate the government wouldn't
even be able to solve becauseit's a mental health situation.
That's true, right.
However, you know, what we'reseeing is a very blatant
(29:00):
demonstration of coercive power.
If we cannot center ourselvesand we will force the exclusion
and exclude is another one ofthe BN words we will force the
exclusion of everyone who is notlike us, and that is a choice,
(29:26):
given that we are positioned.
We have made friends around theworld right We've.
We've again also imposedourself around the world right,
we've again also imposedourselves around the world.
And how do we do that whenthere are women who are leading
(29:49):
countries?
Karen McFarlane (29:52):
Yeah.
Brittany S. Hale (29:54):
We can't speak to humanitarian causes, to
human rights violations, when wevery may well be creating some
right now.
Karen McFarlane (30:10):
Well, yes, but what we have seen is just not
the acknowledgement of thosefacts.
So it's not like, you know,even if we do it, it's not like
we're going to talk about it andact accordingly, like, oh no,
you know, we have ethics.
Ethics seem to be off the tableat this point of view, which is
(30:33):
actually, I think, one of themost frustrating things for me.
At this point of view, which isactually, I think, one of the
most frustrating things for me,it's like no one's being held
truly accountable for theiractions or missteps or, you know
, whatever that's that'shappening in the world today.
And it's just like what ismaddening is that a list like
this could exist at all intoday's society and that it is
(31:00):
unchecked.
Right, like where is and maybeI missed it, so please holler at
me and let me know where is thepushback?
Right on what this means, likewhat the implications are of not
using these words?
Like again, like what policiesis it going to affect?
(31:22):
How does this trickle out tocorporations?
Right, like how I just there'sjust so many things that feel
very open ended, and now it'sjust really this broad case for
everything which we know doesn'twork.
It just you can say you wantput word here for all, right,
(31:51):
and that's cool, it should bethat way, but it doesn't
acknowledge how you get there,what are the barriers to getting
there.
You have to acknowledge the painpoints dead on, and most of
this has to do with people andhow people are treated.
You know, I had a um, I waskind of in a conversation with
(32:13):
chat GPT um, the other day.
Conversation with chat GPT theother day, I was asking it like
how, basically, how do you getrid of bias in people?
Okay, and we had a very long,extensive conversation, but the
(32:33):
short version is too long.
No read, you can't.
That's what Chad JBT said.
You just can't because peoplecome with their own perceived
beliefs and you could takemitigating steps, but it will
(32:54):
never erase it.
It will always be there andthat's why you have to
acknowledge it so that you canaddress it or at least attempt
to try to address it.
If you try to erase it, it justsits below the surface and just
confess itself in differentways.
I thought that was again, I'mgiving you the paraphrased
(33:14):
version, but like, that was veryinsightful.
It was like and I'm like areyou sure?
Be creative?
Like, yeah, actually, you know,and I get it.
Sometimes it hallucinates, butit felt very it was giving me,
(33:35):
it was giving me like examplesof why and all this.
So I just don't, I just don'tknow how this list exists and I
I'm fearful that.
You know, we can't haveconversations like this and talk
about ourselves.
You know, openly.
You know, of course, you and Ican sit on the phone and chat
about our experiences, but oneof the things we like to do is
(33:56):
share them with the world, andso it feels like there's a push
to limit that.
Brittany S. Hale (34:02):
Which is unfortunate, because I find
these conversations deeplyvaluable, as do our listeners.
Yeah, it seems like what'sgoing on is a phrase that tends
to be overused in the startupworld, which is you know, we'll
build the plane as we fly, and Idon't think there's an
(34:25):
acknowledgement of what's lostand how it impacts the people on
the land.
Right, if we're building theplane while we fly, we're
throwing things out withoutconsidering what happens, and,
even though listeners may bescreaming, that's the point,
(34:45):
right?
That is, you know these peoplein power, this is what they want
to do, I would posit.
There are unintended effectsthat even they have not yet
considered.
Karen McFarlane (34:57):
It's not safe, that's.
I mean safety is a real issue.
I mean, you know, in startupland they're usually building
software that's technically notgoing to kill somebody tomorrow.
But when the government's doingthings like this, and you know
they have millions upon millionsof lives around the world in
(35:18):
its hands, there's an extralevel of caution that needs to
be paired with ingenuity that itdoesn't seem as if they're
taking based on the fallout, butI guess there's more to be seen
.
Things change every single day,but I think we, as women have
to fight for our identity.
(35:38):
All of us have to fight for ouridentity, but we as women in
particular, we're half thepopulation, no matter what the
other parts of us are made up of, and we need to assert that
authority.
Agreed, so happy Women'sHistory Month and International
(36:04):
Women's Day.
Brittany S. Hale (36:06):
Yes, same to you.
We will continue to honor women.
Karen McFarlane (36:10):
Absolutely Well , until the next time, bye, bye.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.