February 15, 2025 • 32 mins
Target’s latest DEI moves are stirring up conversation—are they reacting to political pressure or making a strategic business play? We break down the end of their three-year DEI goals, the impact of past controversies (hello, Pride Month backlash), and what it all means for the brand’s future.
We also explore how big brands can make DEI more than just a corporate checkbox, the influence of Black consumer spending, and fresh ideas like Blackout Week. Tune in for a no-nonsense, insightful chat on what’s next for corporate DEI.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Karen McFarlane (00:02):
We're back, we're back, we're back on the
E-Word.
Hi, Brittany.
Brittany S. Hale (00:06):
Hi Karen, how are you?
Karen McFarlane (00:08):
Hanging in there.
You know, every day is a littlebit of drama in this new world
we live in, but you know hangingin there we look for the wins.
Brittany S. Hale (00:19):
We look for the joy where we can find them
right Exactly.
Karen McFarlane (00:22):
You know who doesn't have a care in the world
, though, Mina, on your lap.
Brittany S. Hale (00:28):
That's true.
It's true.
I momentarily bribed her with adental stick.
Oh, okay, so she's okay, she'shappily chewing, but we may be
interrupted.
Hopefully we won't be.
I make no promises.
I make no promises.
Karen McFarlane (00:45):
Well, in this new world order right, we had
some news about Tarjay right.
Brittany S. Hale (00:57):
We did Tell me this is my favorite place to go
.
Is it your favorite place to go?
I have such fond memories ofjust strolling the aisles
aimlessly to Target with friends, family, my dog.
Target is one of the mostconsistently excellent shopping
(01:20):
experiences I have had, so thisnews you're about to share makes
me feel a little anxious.
Karen McFarlane (01:28):
What's going on , oh my goodness.
Well, so the headlines havesaid that Target's pulling back
on their DEI efforts.
Now you got to dig into that alittle bit, you know, because we
like to go beyond the headlines, right?
Exactly.
Brittany S. Hale (01:51):
I think that's just going to be our theme this
whole year, beyond theheadlines.
Karen McFarlane (01:56):
Beyond the headlines, beyond the headlines,
and so a couple of highlights.
Um, they had this targetbelonging at the bullseye
strategy, which, by the way, itfeels like a weird name.
Brittany S. Hale (02:08):
But yeah, because I don't want to be on
the receiving end of a bullseye.
Karen McFarlane (02:17):
I don't know if that hopefully they didn't get
involved in that, but I don'tknow.
But essentially, they there's acouple of different things that
they have going on, um, thatthey posted on their website,
right?
So, um, they are going toconclude their three-year
diversity, equity and inclusiongoals.
(02:38):
Okay, they're concluding theirracial equity action and change
initiatives.
It was called reach and thatwas as planned.
They had planned to, you know,conclude them in 2025.
Okay, they're ensuring theiremployee resource resource
groups are communities that arefully focused on development and
(03:01):
mentorship and the communitieswill be open to all.
Okay, they're furtherevaluating their corporate
partnerships to ensure they'redirectly connected to their
roadmap for growth.
They're staffing all externaldiversity surveys, including the
HRC's Corporate Equality Index,very similar to many other
(03:22):
organizations.
Brittany S. Hale (03:23):
Yeah, unfortunate for HRC, but like I
said, we heard it.
Karen McFarlane (03:29):
And finally, they're evolving their supplier
diversity team to the supplierengagement team to better
reflect our inclusive globalprocurement process across a
broad range of suppliers,including their focus on small
businesses.
Okay, yeah.
Brittany S. Hale (03:49):
Well the good news is that a significant
portion of minority-ownedbusinesses are small businesses.
Very good point, so that's abonus very good point, so that's
a bonus and, um, if I can putmy strategy hat on for a moment,
(04:12):
please do.
Is there a world where targetlooked at the upcoming
presidential election?
They had their analysts do so,right, whoever's underneath the
hood and said OK, well, if we wehave this.
(04:32):
I believe he said it was athree year roadmap.
Karen McFarlane (04:35):
Mm, hmm, yep.
Brittany S. Hale (04:36):
OK, so we have this three-year roadmap and if
a presidential administrationcomes in that is supportive and
receptive of these types ofinitiatives, then that's good pr
for us because we can say we'rewe've achieved such success
(04:58):
that we're we're continuing thisright, we're renewing our three
year commitment to anotherthree years.
Or if a presidentialadministration comes in that is
not receptive and in fact isvery anti-DEI, then we can fall
(05:21):
in line and say, well, we'reending it.
You know we were sunsetting itbecause we only agreed for three
years anyway.
Am I being too conspiratorial?
Karen McFarlane (05:38):
I mean, those are definite possibilities,
right?
I think there's anotherpossibility which you know could
have nothing to do with thepolitical climate.
Right, there, I think there'sanother possibility which you
know could have nothing to dowith the political climate,
right, we have to give that alittle bit of grace, right, of
course.
And, um, they're looking attheir, their, their roadmap for
growth, which actually they sayright, um, to some degree, and
(05:59):
they're evaluating whether thoseprograms are effective in
laddering up to their you know,their overall business goals,
right, so there's a world whereit could be divorced from the
political climate.
Okay, that's fair, but in thepolitical climate you know, um,
that we're in, it's hard to seethat, to see that, and any
(06:33):
change or evolution is going tobe linked to, you know, this
barrage of news that says thatany change in DEI strategy is
pulling back from a DEI strategy, and it could absolutely be
that.
I'm not saying that it's notright, it could also be
something else.
No-transcript.
Brittany S. Hale (07:10):
Right, and the only reason I bring that up is
because a few years ago, targetreceived a lot of pressure from
conservative groups for theirPride Month merchandise.
Karen McFarlane (07:24):
Yeah.
Brittany S. Hale (07:25):
And there was seemingly some backlash about
the merchandise.
I recall seeing peoplerecording themselves knocking
down the merchandise or any ofthe mannequins that were showing
it.
So that to me, and given theirrapid response of taking all of
(07:53):
the stuff down, that to mesuggests that there's at least
one eye on the political climateand the groups that may be
inspired to act as a result ofwhatever targets policies are.
Karen McFarlane (08:13):
Yeah, I agree.
I mean, at the end of the day,they have to be responsive to
the communities that they serve,right, and there are so many
different forces at play otherthan the communities, economic
forces and all of that and theyhave to look at what kind of
(08:36):
risk that climate provides forthem.
So I think it's a very delicatebalance for any major
corporation to embark on in thisvery volatile climate.
So if we look back at, say, Idon't know when Target actually
really really started, buteverybody seemed to start in
(08:56):
2020, right, 2021.
Sure, if we look back at that, alot of what we saw was in
response to the communities andthe outrage and the call for
change.
And now, some years later, wesee a different kind of response
and we see companies respondingto that.
So it's kind of no differentthan those times.
(09:19):
It just feels like even theprograms that they had in place
prior to it falling under orlabeled DEI are now under attack
as well diversity programs thathave been in place for decades
(09:49):
in many organizations and is nowbeing weaponized in a way.
That's basically saying youknow, supplier diversity and DEI
, for example, are the samething, and then we see these
weird stories crop up around.
You know not playing theTuskegee Airmen video, right?
(10:10):
So basically, this censoring ofBlack history, as if Black
history is a DEI componentrather than it being American
history.
Yeah, that's what I was going tosay.
Brittany S. Hale (10:24):
Yeah, exactly, I mean I come from my father
has served, both of mygrandfathers have served, and so
I take great pride in myfamily's role in ensuring
American freedom and it seemslike such a missed opportunity
(10:47):
to uplift the collectiveinvestment in protecting those
freedoms, simply because ofpersonal animus or any sort of
insecurity.
We can't take it back.
It's done right.
These people served, they, manyof them, gave their lives for
(11:10):
this country in hope of a better, more freer, more perfect union
.
So I I saw that it was put back.
But again, again, the questionis to what end we erase this
history.
To what end, you know, eventoday, and I'm curious to know
(11:36):
what your response is.
I was thinking a lot about kindof reskilling and workforce
planning and what that's goingto look like going forward,
especially if these particularorganizations, like a Target or
(11:57):
McDonald's or anyone else,assuming that they have a CDO or
a chief diversity officer.
Are the CDOs around the countryfeeling nervous, you know?
Is their job in jeopardy?
Karen McFarlane (12:09):
I think their job is in jeopardy for sure.
Brittany S. Hale (12:12):
Yeah, and knowing that over 70% of CDOs
across the United States arewhite.
Karen McFarlane (12:22):
Right, right Does that change the perception
I'm learning of it.
Yeah.
Brittany S. Hale (12:31):
Right?
The argument, as I understandit, is having a CDO or having
these diversity initiatives arefueling a lack of fairness and
opportunity.
So then my question becomeswhat happens when the people who
are drafting these initiativesand encouraging these
(12:57):
initiatives are white?
Because the underlyingassumption is that this is
unfair to white people, right?
Karen McFarlane (13:06):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I think that history hasshown us that the powerful few
will sacrifice their own inorder to further their own
agenda.
So the fact that their ownagenda, so the fact that white
(13:32):
people may also be affected bysome of these changes in their
view, is a necessary byproductor just collateral damage for a
greater good in their view, andthat's always how it's been.
And so, unfortunately for thegeneral population, this is a
wake-up call to realize thatwhen you remove things like DEI,
(13:58):
it also affects veterans,people differently abled people,
right Women, just women ingeneral.
It's not just the black andbrown folks, which that was the
marketing that that other groupput out there, but the reality
(14:19):
is.
Here's the hard truth.
There's never been a programcreated exclusively for the
black and brown people.
We always are a by-product of agreater good, to be honest.
Brittany S. Hale (14:32):
Can you say that again?
Karen McFarlane (14:34):
I think that's never been a program
specifically created to benefitblack and brown people,
particularly black people.
It's just been made to seemthat way.
The biggest okey-doke has beenwelfare right.
It has been marketed andthere's this whole history stuff
about this but marketed to makeit seem as if Black people were
(14:57):
the only people benefiting fromit, when in fact, we are far
from it.
They are not creating a welfareprogram to take care of Black
people.
That's not happening, and so Ithink that's the biggest wake-up
call is that other people areaffected that didn't think they
would be part of the sweep,essentially, unfortunately, and
(15:21):
so people will be affected evenin these like individual pockets
of different companies.
How they will be affected, wedon't.
We don't necessarily know.
There's a big assumption thatthese practices were illegal and
unethical and that were notmerit based, when in fact, it
(15:47):
was just compelling people to beaware of their biases, that
were holding certain groups backand intentionally make systemic
shifts that created morefairness.
It was about fairness andequity, but it has been twisted
into something else, and so thisis what we see happening day in
and day out, and Target is thelatest company right that is
(16:11):
shifting their viewpoints onthis.
Do I think they're taking itall away?
No, do I think they have toappease the administration?
Yes, do I think there's smartpeople working there that's
(16:53):
going to figure it out?
Yes, and do.
Brittany S. Hale (16:54):
I think you're absolutely right.
This is, quite honestly, almosta boon, quite honestly almost a
boon.
You know me, I'm a politicaloptimist.
I'm going to find theopportunity in adversity.
So for those who are listeningor watching, it's just like okay
(17:17):
, here she comes again.
We need optimism.
We need optimism and this is anopportunity for you.
If you are cpg, if you provideconsumer products and goods,
your website needs to befunctional.
You need to be up and running.
(17:39):
You know, if I were, If I weresomeone like the lip bar for
example that is placed in Targetand if I understand that a huge
part of my Target demographicis planning to boycott Target,
(18:00):
head to thelipbarcom.
Intercode boycott for freeshipping.
(18:23):
Intercode boycott for 15% off.
I think there's work to do forentrepreneurs who seek exposure
to greater markets.
If you now know that you can'teasily rely on a big box
retailer, you have to get really, really crafty and really
strategic about how you upliftyour goods and how you get in
front of the people that aregoing to spend the money that
(18:43):
are going to spend the money.
Karen McFarlane (18:45):
Unfortunately, for these small businesses, it's
more work, right, and that isthe trade-off, that's the huge
trade-off.
Their profits are going tosuffer, but you need to survive.
And one thing that smallbusinesses but I'm just going to
talk about Black people rightnow we know about survival.
(19:05):
We are resilient human beingsand we're creative human beings
and we need to figure it out,but we also need to support our
own, and that's something that Idon't think we're as good at,
you know.
I mean, can we talk about theboycotting for a second?
Yes, can we talk about theboycotting for a second yes, and
(19:29):
just talk about the pros andcons of both sides of that?
I mean, we've heard from someBlack-owned retailers that they
don't want us to boycott Targetbecause their sales will suck.
Because their sales will suckand of course, you know, our
(19:50):
economic power is one of thevery most powerful tools that we
have.
So the question is do weboycott Target or do we boycott
certain brands that are notBlack-owned owned?
Let's talk about the blackcommunity specifically for a
second right, sure?
Do we just go to target and buytheir products?
(20:10):
Is that enough?
And I have a bigger question orthought process around
boycotting.
You know I think we talkedabout this a little bit last
week Like we're not veryorganized right now around a
movement in particular, theseboycotts.
(20:33):
Maybe we'll do them and they'lllast for some period of time,
but then most people areeventually going to go back to
(20:54):
shopping in the way that's mostconvenient randomized movement
that thought about theimplications of people not
taking the bus, even down toproviding people with rides.
I mean, it was very wellthought out so that it could
last for a significant period oftime and have the impact, the
(21:20):
economic impact that it neededto have to spark change, whereas
now we're like oh, we don'tlike this, let's boycott this.
Okay, when we start, what do we?
Brittany S. Hale (21:37):
do.
This is a really importantpoint that you bring up, because
we have more access to oneanother than they did 60 years
ago, right, where they were justworking with landline phones
and mailers.
We can galvanize things really,really quickly.
(22:00):
But then the question that cameup for me as you were speaking
was if Target comes to the tableand says, okay, our sales took
a hit, what do you want?
Who's designated to respond?
Who represents the group's bestinterest?
(22:23):
Now I nominate us.
I think that we are greatlisteners, we're not only apping
here and that we were veryintentional about educating
ourselves around the needs ofthe community.
(22:45):
But who decides that?
Karen McFarlane (22:51):
Very good question.
That's our biggest the killer'sheel.
Brittany S. Hale (22:55):
Right and, and so that is.
That is the challenge, whereasagain, you have a particular
group challenge.
Whereas again, you have aparticular group.
You have a project 2025, youhave a thousand page tome
detailing here's what we'regoing to do from the legislative
side, here's what we're goingto do from the judicial side,
(23:16):
here's how we're going to engagein media, and so you have your
actors in each individual space.
My question is where's theproject 2026 or the project 2027
?
And how do you engage people inthat?
So we are, for example, by thetime this comes out, the Chinese
(23:42):
new year will have come andgone, or the Lunar New Year, but
tomorrow's the Lunar New Year.
I'm very excited.
It's always a really nice baseof time.
Target, for example, I saw tonsof decorations around the
(24:05):
incoming year of the snake andthe partnership with I forget
her name, please excuse me, butshe's a Vietnamese creator and
Target's working with her todesign the red envelopes that
family members will exchange andgive to children, you know, in
celebration and welcoming wealthand prosperity for the new year
(24:28):
.
So if this now goes away andagain it's for a limited period
of time, of course, for theLunar.
Karen McFarlane (24:36):
New.
Brittany S. Hale (24:36):
Year.
But if initiatives like this goaway so that when Diwali comes
up, you know I can't go toTarget and buy a card or buy any
sort of decoration for Diwali,well, who do you go to right?
Is it one group that's onlyrepresenting Black creators?
(24:57):
Is it one group that is focusedon really all sort of global
majority creators, right andpeople who are expanding our
awareness of what it means to beAmerican?
And who's going to do that?
(25:17):
Who?
Who does that?
Who's responsible?
Karen McFarlane (25:19):
This is why I think it's not going to go away,
right, for particularly acompany like Target.
I think that if they, they needto focus on their customers and
what their customers want andpeople don't want vanilla
products, right, all the timeand so those moments like that
(25:41):
moment, like what you justshared, that you can A as a
person that doesn't come fromthat culture, experience it and
you know, experience it in theway that you want to experience
it.
But also for people who do comefrom that culture, to have a
place to go and get all thesethings and, you know, engage.
That's still important from acustomer perspective and it's
(26:05):
still a global retailer and Ijust don't feel like these
global corporations can juststrip away the foundation of DEI
from their organizations.
They can strip away the words,right, but what they have to do
to, um, increase sales andconnect with their customers and
build loyalty and all that,those things they recognize that
(26:28):
those things have value.
Over the past years, I don'tthink any of us guys were like,
yeah, we don't, we don't need toconnect with any customer on
that level.
It's not going to make us anymoney.
I'm sure some if we were likesome celebrations don't right,
because maybe they're notauthentically connecting with
them or their audience reallyisn't that, or whatever the case
may be, it's not aligned.
But I just find it very hard tobelieve.
(26:51):
Now, there's a lot of thingsthat have happened recently that
I did not anticipate happening.
But people then that they wantto make money and this does not
make them money.
This does not make them moneyto step away from their
customers, right.
Right, you know so.
But to your point about us nothaving leaders, leaders, people
(27:17):
to speak for us.
That is a huge gap in theopposition.
Essentially, that needs to befilled.
We need to have a plan.
Project 2025 was written downso people can galvanize around
it.
What do we look at Nothing.
We have no idea what's going onat Nothing.
We have no idea what's going on.
(27:38):
By the way, just as a sidebar,I had an idea this many years
ago.
Of course, I didn't know how toexecute.
I just wanted it to be blackoutday, okay, where basically all
the black people just stopped.
And then I wanted to beblackout week, but we stopped
(27:58):
shopping, okay, we just stopped.
And it would be like every week, every year, for one week, we
remind people of our buyingpower.
Brittany S. Hale (28:08):
The collective buying power, which is over a
trillion dollars, I believe.
Karen McFarlane (28:11):
Something like that.
Yes, okay, so I still like thatidea.
The only thing is that I thinkpeople would increase their
shopping the week before if theywere participating.
Brittany S. Hale (28:23):
Right, because it counts.
You're defeating the practice,but this is why I nominated us.
You know, because of ideas likethis, karen, when it comes to
the marketing piece, there's noone that they need to be calling
.
We need to think about BlackoutWeek be calling, so think about
blackout week.
Karen McFarlane (28:48):
We really need to think about blackout week.
I'm just saying we stoppedshopping or maybe we just do all
black that week.
So if you want to buy foodcause I understand you're going
to want to buy food, right, andthings of that nature that week
you and then we have to havepeople need to know where to go,
cause that's that's the hardpart.
Brittany S. Hale (29:01):
It's, and there are apps right, there are
databases that will show you.
Hey, if you would like acaterer in this in Atlanta, here
you go.
Karen McFarlane (29:13):
You know, you.
Brittany S. Hale (29:14):
you want a designer in Tulsa Fantastic.
Karen McFarlane (29:23):
Yeah, exactly, there's a.
I'm just going to shout her outbecause there's a new creator.
She created Shop the Hood Yep,and it has all the black owned
businesses.
I think there's also Shop Blackas well.
You know, we need to justengage with these tools.
I actually just discovered todayanother app going back to the
small business aspect of yousaying, get your website and
stuff right.
It's called Folklore andessentially it's a platform that
(29:45):
enables people to start theirbusinesses and all the different
operational aspects and evenconnects you to freelancers to
help you, you know, build yourbusiness, and there's all
different sorts of resources andtools if you want to get
started and it's Black-owned,okay.
So, which is very cool in myview, obviously, and yeah, we
(30:10):
need to find more things likethis and engage and help them
grow, right, right.
So, whether you boycott Targetor not, that's up to you,
obviously, um, and but if you doshop there, try to support the
Black business owners orwhatever nationality or cultural
(30:36):
you want to support.
We're not just saying blackowned, but of course, we favor
the black code and beintentional, you know, and those
dollars are going to help setthose uh people up for any
changes that that happen goingforward.
We don't know what's going tohappen.
We don't know if contracts aregoing to be canceled.
We just have no idea what theimplications are.
(31:01):
So everyone just needs to gettheir money up and if you're
going to spend, get your moneyup with Black-owned businesses
as much as you can.
I mean, sometimes thebusinesses aren't fully
Black-owned and we totally getthat.
You need capital in order togrow and build.
But you know, just be mindfuland do your do the best that you
(31:22):
can and in the meantime, let'sfind some, some really awesome
leaders.
We might just step up Brittany,but story of our lives right'll
do it oh goodness, it mayhappen.
Brittany S. Hale (31:49):
Yes, and in the meantime, karen, yes, we're
gonna talk about blackout weekand I am wishing you health,
fortune and a year of prosperityas we celebrate the Lunar New
Year.
Karen McFarlane (32:04):
I receive that and I wish you the same.
Thank you, all right, until thenext piece of drama that
happens next week.
Brittany S. Hale (32:15):
Yeah, see you next week.
I'll see you then.
We're back, we're back, we're back on the
E-Word.
Hi, Brittany.
Brittany S. Hale (00:06):
Hi Karen, how are you?
Karen McFarlane (00:08):
Hanging in there.
You know, every day is a littlebit of drama in this new world
we live in, but you know hangingin there we look for the wins.
Brittany S. Hale (00:19):
We look for the joy where we can find them
right Exactly.
Karen McFarlane (00:22):
You know who doesn't have a care in the world
, though, Mina, on your lap.
Brittany S. Hale (00:28):
That's true.
It's true.
I momentarily bribed her with adental stick.
Oh, okay, so she's okay, she'shappily chewing, but we may be
interrupted.
Hopefully we won't be.
I make no promises.
I make no promises.
Karen McFarlane (00:45):
Well, in this new world order right, we had
some news about Tarjay right.
Brittany S. Hale (00:57):
We did Tell me this is my favorite place to go
.
Is it your favorite place to go?
I have such fond memories ofjust strolling the aisles
aimlessly to Target with friends, family, my dog.
Target is one of the mostconsistently excellent shopping
(01:20):
experiences I have had, so thisnews you're about to share makes
me feel a little anxious.
Karen McFarlane (01:28):
What's going on , oh my goodness.
Well, so the headlines havesaid that Target's pulling back
on their DEI efforts.
Now you got to dig into that alittle bit, you know, because we
like to go beyond the headlines, right?
Exactly.
Brittany S. Hale (01:51):
I think that's just going to be our theme this
whole year, beyond theheadlines.
Karen McFarlane (01:56):
Beyond the headlines, beyond the headlines,
and so a couple of highlights.
Um, they had this targetbelonging at the bullseye
strategy, which, by the way, itfeels like a weird name.
Brittany S. Hale (02:08):
But yeah, because I don't want to be on
the receiving end of a bullseye.
Karen McFarlane (02:17):
I don't know if that hopefully they didn't get
involved in that, but I don'tknow.
But essentially, they there's acouple of different things that
they have going on, um, thatthey posted on their website,
right?
So, um, they are going toconclude their three-year
diversity, equity and inclusiongoals.
(02:38):
Okay, they're concluding theirracial equity action and change
initiatives.
It was called reach and thatwas as planned.
They had planned to, you know,conclude them in 2025.
Okay, they're ensuring theiremployee resource resource
groups are communities that arefully focused on development and
(03:01):
mentorship and the communitieswill be open to all.
Okay, they're furtherevaluating their corporate
partnerships to ensure they'redirectly connected to their
roadmap for growth.
They're staffing all externaldiversity surveys, including the
HRC's Corporate Equality Index,very similar to many other
(03:22):
organizations.
Brittany S. Hale (03:23):
Yeah, unfortunate for HRC, but like I
said, we heard it.
Karen McFarlane (03:29):
And finally, they're evolving their supplier
diversity team to the supplierengagement team to better
reflect our inclusive globalprocurement process across a
broad range of suppliers,including their focus on small
businesses.
Okay, yeah.
Brittany S. Hale (03:49):
Well the good news is that a significant
portion of minority-ownedbusinesses are small businesses.
Very good point, so that's abonus very good point, so that's
a bonus and, um, if I can putmy strategy hat on for a moment,
(04:12):
please do.
Is there a world where targetlooked at the upcoming
presidential election?
They had their analysts do so,right, whoever's underneath the
hood and said OK, well, if we wehave this.
(04:32):
I believe he said it was athree year roadmap.
Karen McFarlane (04:35):
Mm, hmm, yep.
Brittany S. Hale (04:36):
OK, so we have this three-year roadmap and if
a presidential administrationcomes in that is supportive and
receptive of these types ofinitiatives, then that's good pr
for us because we can say we'rewe've achieved such success
(04:58):
that we're we're continuing thisright, we're renewing our three
year commitment to anotherthree years.
Or if a presidentialadministration comes in that is
not receptive and in fact isvery anti-DEI, then we can fall
(05:21):
in line and say, well, we'reending it.
You know we were sunsetting itbecause we only agreed for three
years anyway.
Am I being too conspiratorial?
Karen McFarlane (05:38):
I mean, those are definite possibilities,
right?
I think there's anotherpossibility which you know could
have nothing to do with thepolitical climate.
Right, there, I think there'sanother possibility which you
know could have nothing to dowith the political climate,
right, we have to give that alittle bit of grace, right, of
course.
And, um, they're looking attheir, their, their roadmap for
growth, which actually they sayright, um, to some degree, and
(05:59):
they're evaluating whether thoseprograms are effective in
laddering up to their you know,their overall business goals,
right, so there's a world whereit could be divorced from the
political climate.
Okay, that's fair, but in thepolitical climate you know, um,
that we're in, it's hard to seethat, to see that, and any
(06:33):
change or evolution is going tobe linked to, you know, this
barrage of news that says thatany change in DEI strategy is
pulling back from a DEI strategy, and it could absolutely be
that.
I'm not saying that it's notright, it could also be
something else.
No-transcript.
Brittany S. Hale (07:10):
Right, and the only reason I bring that up is
because a few years ago, targetreceived a lot of pressure from
conservative groups for theirPride Month merchandise.
Karen McFarlane (07:24):
Yeah.
Brittany S. Hale (07:25):
And there was seemingly some backlash about
the merchandise.
I recall seeing peoplerecording themselves knocking
down the merchandise or any ofthe mannequins that were showing
it.
So that to me, and given theirrapid response of taking all of
(07:53):
the stuff down, that to mesuggests that there's at least
one eye on the political climateand the groups that may be
inspired to act as a result ofwhatever targets policies are.
Karen McFarlane (08:13):
Yeah, I agree.
I mean, at the end of the day,they have to be responsive to
the communities that they serve,right, and there are so many
different forces at play otherthan the communities, economic
forces and all of that and theyhave to look at what kind of
(08:36):
risk that climate provides forthem.
So I think it's a very delicatebalance for any major
corporation to embark on in thisvery volatile climate.
So if we look back at, say, Idon't know when Target actually
really really started, buteverybody seemed to start in
(08:56):
2020, right, 2021.
Sure, if we look back at that, alot of what we saw was in
response to the communities andthe outrage and the call for
change.
And now, some years later, wesee a different kind of response
and we see companies respondingto that.
So it's kind of no differentthan those times.
(09:19):
It just feels like even theprograms that they had in place
prior to it falling under orlabeled DEI are now under attack
as well diversity programs thathave been in place for decades
(09:49):
in many organizations and is nowbeing weaponized in a way.
That's basically saying youknow, supplier diversity and DEI
, for example, are the samething, and then we see these
weird stories crop up around.
You know not playing theTuskegee Airmen video, right?
(10:10):
So basically, this censoring ofBlack history, as if Black
history is a DEI componentrather than it being American
history.
Yeah, that's what I was going tosay.
Brittany S. Hale (10:24):
Yeah, exactly, I mean I come from my father
has served, both of mygrandfathers have served, and so
I take great pride in myfamily's role in ensuring
American freedom and it seemslike such a missed opportunity
(10:47):
to uplift the collectiveinvestment in protecting those
freedoms, simply because ofpersonal animus or any sort of
insecurity.
We can't take it back.
It's done right.
These people served, they, manyof them, gave their lives for
(11:10):
this country in hope of a better, more freer, more perfect union
.
So I I saw that it was put back.
But again, again, the questionis to what end we erase this
history.
To what end, you know, eventoday, and I'm curious to know
(11:36):
what your response is.
I was thinking a lot about kindof reskilling and workforce
planning and what that's goingto look like going forward,
especially if these particularorganizations, like a Target or
(11:57):
McDonald's or anyone else,assuming that they have a CDO or
a chief diversity officer.
Are the CDOs around the countryfeeling nervous, you know?
Is their job in jeopardy?
Karen McFarlane (12:09):
I think their job is in jeopardy for sure.
Brittany S. Hale (12:12):
Yeah, and knowing that over 70% of CDOs
across the United States arewhite.
Karen McFarlane (12:22):
Right, right Does that change the perception
I'm learning of it.
Yeah.
Brittany S. Hale (12:31):
Right?
The argument, as I understandit, is having a CDO or having
these diversity initiatives arefueling a lack of fairness and
opportunity.
So then my question becomeswhat happens when the people who
are drafting these initiativesand encouraging these
(12:57):
initiatives are white?
Because the underlyingassumption is that this is
unfair to white people, right?
Karen McFarlane (13:06):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I think that history hasshown us that the powerful few
will sacrifice their own inorder to further their own
agenda.
So the fact that their ownagenda, so the fact that white
(13:32):
people may also be affected bysome of these changes in their
view, is a necessary byproductor just collateral damage for a
greater good in their view, andthat's always how it's been.
And so, unfortunately for thegeneral population, this is a
wake-up call to realize thatwhen you remove things like DEI,
(13:58):
it also affects veterans,people differently abled people,
right Women, just women ingeneral.
It's not just the black andbrown folks, which that was the
marketing that that other groupput out there, but the reality
(14:19):
is.
Here's the hard truth.
There's never been a programcreated exclusively for the
black and brown people.
We always are a by-product of agreater good, to be honest.
Brittany S. Hale (14:32):
Can you say that again?
Karen McFarlane (14:34):
I think that's never been a program
specifically created to benefitblack and brown people,
particularly black people.
It's just been made to seemthat way.
The biggest okey-doke has beenwelfare right.
It has been marketed andthere's this whole history stuff
about this but marketed to makeit seem as if Black people were
(14:57):
the only people benefiting fromit, when in fact, we are far
from it.
They are not creating a welfareprogram to take care of Black
people.
That's not happening, and so Ithink that's the biggest wake-up
call is that other people areaffected that didn't think they
would be part of the sweep,essentially, unfortunately, and
(15:21):
so people will be affected evenin these like individual pockets
of different companies.
How they will be affected, wedon't.
We don't necessarily know.
There's a big assumption thatthese practices were illegal and
unethical and that were notmerit based, when in fact, it
(15:47):
was just compelling people to beaware of their biases, that
were holding certain groups backand intentionally make systemic
shifts that created morefairness.
It was about fairness andequity, but it has been twisted
into something else, and so thisis what we see happening day in
and day out, and Target is thelatest company right that is
(16:11):
shifting their viewpoints onthis.
Do I think they're taking itall away?
No, do I think they have toappease the administration?
Yes, do I think there's smartpeople working there that's
(16:53):
going to figure it out?
Yes, and do.
Brittany S. Hale (16:54):
I think you're absolutely right.
This is, quite honestly, almosta boon, quite honestly almost a
boon.
You know me, I'm a politicaloptimist.
I'm going to find theopportunity in adversity.
So for those who are listeningor watching, it's just like okay
(17:17):
, here she comes again.
We need optimism.
We need optimism and this is anopportunity for you.
If you are cpg, if you provideconsumer products and goods,
your website needs to befunctional.
You need to be up and running.
(17:39):
You know, if I were, If I weresomeone like the lip bar for
example that is placed in Targetand if I understand that a huge
part of my Target demographicis planning to boycott Target,
(18:00):
head to thelipbarcom.
Intercode boycott for freeshipping.
(18:23):
Intercode boycott for 15% off.
I think there's work to do forentrepreneurs who seek exposure
to greater markets.
If you now know that you can'teasily rely on a big box
retailer, you have to get really, really crafty and really
strategic about how you upliftyour goods and how you get in
front of the people that aregoing to spend the money that
(18:43):
are going to spend the money.
Karen McFarlane (18:45):
Unfortunately, for these small businesses, it's
more work, right, and that isthe trade-off, that's the huge
trade-off.
Their profits are going tosuffer, but you need to survive.
And one thing that smallbusinesses but I'm just going to
talk about Black people rightnow we know about survival.
(19:05):
We are resilient human beingsand we're creative human beings
and we need to figure it out,but we also need to support our
own, and that's something that Idon't think we're as good at,
you know.
I mean, can we talk about theboycotting for a second?
Yes, can we talk about theboycotting for a second yes, and
(19:29):
just talk about the pros andcons of both sides of that?
I mean, we've heard from someBlack-owned retailers that they
don't want us to boycott Targetbecause their sales will suck.
Because their sales will suckand of course, you know, our
(19:50):
economic power is one of thevery most powerful tools that we
have.
So the question is do weboycott Target or do we boycott
certain brands that are notBlack-owned owned?
Let's talk about the blackcommunity specifically for a
second right, sure?
Do we just go to target and buytheir products?
(20:10):
Is that enough?
And I have a bigger question orthought process around
boycotting.
You know I think we talkedabout this a little bit last
week Like we're not veryorganized right now around a
movement in particular, theseboycotts.
(20:33):
Maybe we'll do them and they'lllast for some period of time,
but then most people areeventually going to go back to
(20:54):
shopping in the way that's mostconvenient randomized movement
that thought about theimplications of people not
taking the bus, even down toproviding people with rides.
I mean, it was very wellthought out so that it could
last for a significant period oftime and have the impact, the
(21:20):
economic impact that it neededto have to spark change, whereas
now we're like oh, we don'tlike this, let's boycott this.
Okay, when we start, what do we?
Brittany S. Hale (21:37):
do.
This is a really importantpoint that you bring up, because
we have more access to oneanother than they did 60 years
ago, right, where they were justworking with landline phones
and mailers.
We can galvanize things really,really quickly.
(22:00):
But then the question that cameup for me as you were speaking
was if Target comes to the tableand says, okay, our sales took
a hit, what do you want?
Who's designated to respond?
Who represents the group's bestinterest?
(22:23):
Now I nominate us.
I think that we are greatlisteners, we're not only apping
here and that we were veryintentional about educating
ourselves around the needs ofthe community.
(22:45):
But who decides that?
Karen McFarlane (22:51):
Very good question.
That's our biggest the killer'sheel.
Brittany S. Hale (22:55):
Right and, and so that is.
That is the challenge, whereasagain, you have a particular
group challenge.
Whereas again, you have aparticular group.
You have a project 2025, youhave a thousand page tome
detailing here's what we'regoing to do from the legislative
side, here's what we're goingto do from the judicial side,
(23:16):
here's how we're going to engagein media, and so you have your
actors in each individual space.
My question is where's theproject 2026 or the project 2027
?
And how do you engage people inthat?
So we are, for example, by thetime this comes out, the Chinese
(23:42):
new year will have come andgone, or the Lunar New Year, but
tomorrow's the Lunar New Year.
I'm very excited.
It's always a really nice baseof time.
Target, for example, I saw tonsof decorations around the
(24:05):
incoming year of the snake andthe partnership with I forget
her name, please excuse me, butshe's a Vietnamese creator and
Target's working with her todesign the red envelopes that
family members will exchange andgive to children, you know, in
celebration and welcoming wealthand prosperity for the new year
(24:28):
.
So if this now goes away andagain it's for a limited period
of time, of course, for theLunar.
Karen McFarlane (24:36):
New.
Brittany S. Hale (24:36):
Year.
But if initiatives like this goaway so that when Diwali comes
up, you know I can't go toTarget and buy a card or buy any
sort of decoration for Diwali,well, who do you go to right?
Is it one group that's onlyrepresenting Black creators?
(24:57):
Is it one group that is focusedon really all sort of global
majority creators, right andpeople who are expanding our
awareness of what it means to beAmerican?
And who's going to do that?
(25:17):
Who?
Who does that?
Who's responsible?
Karen McFarlane (25:19):
This is why I think it's not going to go away,
right, for particularly acompany like Target.
I think that if they, they needto focus on their customers and
what their customers want andpeople don't want vanilla
products, right, all the timeand so those moments like that
(25:41):
moment, like what you justshared, that you can A as a
person that doesn't come fromthat culture, experience it and
you know, experience it in theway that you want to experience
it.
But also for people who do comefrom that culture, to have a
place to go and get all thesethings and, you know, engage.
That's still important from acustomer perspective and it's
(26:05):
still a global retailer and Ijust don't feel like these
global corporations can juststrip away the foundation of DEI
from their organizations.
They can strip away the words,right, but what they have to do
to, um, increase sales andconnect with their customers and
build loyalty and all that,those things they recognize that
(26:28):
those things have value.
Over the past years, I don'tthink any of us guys were like,
yeah, we don't, we don't need toconnect with any customer on
that level.
It's not going to make us anymoney.
I'm sure some if we were likesome celebrations don't right,
because maybe they're notauthentically connecting with
them or their audience reallyisn't that, or whatever the case
may be, it's not aligned.
But I just find it very hard tobelieve.
(26:51):
Now, there's a lot of thingsthat have happened recently that
I did not anticipate happening.
But people then that they wantto make money and this does not
make them money.
This does not make them moneyto step away from their
customers, right.
Right, you know so.
But to your point about us nothaving leaders, leaders, people
(27:17):
to speak for us.
That is a huge gap in theopposition.
Essentially, that needs to befilled.
We need to have a plan.
Project 2025 was written downso people can galvanize around
it.
What do we look at Nothing.
We have no idea what's going onat Nothing.
We have no idea what's going on.
(27:38):
By the way, just as a sidebar,I had an idea this many years
ago.
Of course, I didn't know how toexecute.
I just wanted it to be blackoutday, okay, where basically all
the black people just stopped.
And then I wanted to beblackout week, but we stopped
(27:58):
shopping, okay, we just stopped.
And it would be like every week, every year, for one week, we
remind people of our buyingpower.
Brittany S. Hale (28:08):
The collective buying power, which is over a
trillion dollars, I believe.
Karen McFarlane (28:11):
Something like that.
Yes, okay, so I still like thatidea.
The only thing is that I thinkpeople would increase their
shopping the week before if theywere participating.
Brittany S. Hale (28:23):
Right, because it counts.
You're defeating the practice,but this is why I nominated us.
You know, because of ideas likethis, karen, when it comes to
the marketing piece, there's noone that they need to be calling
.
We need to think about BlackoutWeek be calling, so think about
blackout week.
Karen McFarlane (28:48):
We really need to think about blackout week.
I'm just saying we stoppedshopping or maybe we just do all
black that week.
So if you want to buy foodcause I understand you're going
to want to buy food, right, andthings of that nature that week
you and then we have to havepeople need to know where to go,
cause that's that's the hardpart.
Brittany S. Hale (29:01):
It's, and there are apps right, there are
databases that will show you.
Hey, if you would like acaterer in this in Atlanta, here
you go.
Karen McFarlane (29:13):
You know, you.
Brittany S. Hale (29:14):
you want a designer in Tulsa Fantastic.
Karen McFarlane (29:23):
Yeah, exactly, there's a.
I'm just going to shout her outbecause there's a new creator.
She created Shop the Hood Yep,and it has all the black owned
businesses.
I think there's also Shop Blackas well.
You know, we need to justengage with these tools.
I actually just discovered todayanother app going back to the
small business aspect of yousaying, get your website and
stuff right.
It's called Folklore andessentially it's a platform that
(29:45):
enables people to start theirbusinesses and all the different
operational aspects and evenconnects you to freelancers to
help you, you know, build yourbusiness, and there's all
different sorts of resources andtools if you want to get
started and it's Black-owned,okay.
So, which is very cool in myview, obviously, and yeah, we
(30:10):
need to find more things likethis and engage and help them
grow, right, right.
So, whether you boycott Targetor not, that's up to you,
obviously, um, and but if you doshop there, try to support the
Black business owners orwhatever nationality or cultural
(30:36):
you want to support.
We're not just saying blackowned, but of course, we favor
the black code and beintentional, you know, and those
dollars are going to help setthose uh people up for any
changes that that happen goingforward.
We don't know what's going tohappen.
We don't know if contracts aregoing to be canceled.
We just have no idea what theimplications are.
(31:01):
So everyone just needs to gettheir money up and if you're
going to spend, get your moneyup with Black-owned businesses
as much as you can.
I mean, sometimes thebusinesses aren't fully
Black-owned and we totally getthat.
You need capital in order togrow and build.
But you know, just be mindfuland do your do the best that you
(31:22):
can and in the meantime, let'sfind some, some really awesome
leaders.
We might just step up Brittany,but story of our lives right'll
do it oh goodness, it mayhappen.
Brittany S. Hale (31:49):
Yes, and in the meantime, karen, yes, we're
gonna talk about blackout weekand I am wishing you health,
fortune and a year of prosperityas we celebrate the Lunar New
Year.
Karen McFarlane (32:04):
I receive that and I wish you the same.
Thank you, all right, until thenext piece of drama that
happens next week.
Brittany S. Hale (32:15):
Yeah, see you next week.
I'll see you then.
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