January 4, 2025 • 34 mins
What if the recent election outcomes signal a seismic shift for diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) in both corporate and political realms? As we brace for the impending Trump presidency and a Republican majority, we dissect the potential ramifications for DEI initiatives and draw parallels with historical contexts, like reparations for slave owners. With influential figures such as Stephen Miller poised to shape policy, we're left questioning the sustainability of DEI programs. Despite this uncertainty, the episode uncovers a glimmer of hope, as new data from CHIEF reveals that many companies still hold DEI as a core competency, highlighting its growing recognition within C-suite leadership.
CONTINUED LEARNING
- Where do executives draw the line on DEI? (Chief)
- Marketing’s Role in Creating an Inclusive Future: Are we creating an exclusion pipeline? (Colossal Work & AMA)
- The lesson about diversity from the 2024 election is not what you think (fast company)
Stay With Us
- Watch and Subscribe to The E Word on YouTube.
- Follow Karen on LinkedIn and learn more at Colossal Work.
- Follow Brittany on LinkedIn and learn more at BND Consulting Group.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Karen McFarlane (00:01):
Hi Brittany, hi Karen.
Brittany S. Hale (00:04):
How are you?
I am swell.
It's a full moon today.
I feel a little bit wonky, butright now I'm happily serving as
a bed for Mina.
Karen McFarlane (00:17):
Hi Mina.
She's resting as usual.
As usual, yes, a permanentaudience member.
I know, I know I need to comeback as your dog.
Brittany S. Hale (00:30):
Yes, it is always a great idea to come back
as a childless single Blackwoman's dog.
Her birthday was recently.
I thinly sliced a chickenbreast breast, sauteed it for
her.
Karen McFarlane (00:49):
She had a great time oh nice, you gotta come to
their house for dinner exactlyI just baked the chicken breast
for my dog.
There's no sauteing and stuffgoing on.
Brittany S. Hale (01:02):
Listen, it's still, but you did it.
You did it.
Only the best from our list.
Karen McFarlane (01:12):
So we are.
What are we?
A little more than one week outfrom the election?
Yeah, and, as our listenersshould know, we are both very
disappointed in the outcome,given who we had supported, or
still support, I'm not gonna sayhad, but still it's been a year
(01:34):
of a week, yeah but it has,although, to be honest, I've
mostly stayed out of the newsand social for the most part.
Just to you know, there's aflurry of activity, can be very
overwhelming and I had somethings I needed to focus on and
this would distract me quite abit.
(01:54):
But I think this weekend I'mready to kind of dive into
what's really happening.
I see, you know people call meand you know, obviously we talk
and then the notifications thatcome up on my phone are
unavoidable, yes, but um, yeah,it's going to be a really
(02:16):
different time and, um, you know, there's so many things to
unpack in what's going to behappening in the coming days,
months, years.
But you know, one piece of thatpie is the.
I don't know what therepercussions are.
(02:36):
What's next for diversity,equity, inclusion in this new
political climate?
Brittany S. Hale (02:42):
Yeah, I think that is top of mind, I would say
, for everyone but theprofessionals that I know who
are in the DEI space, the chiefdiversity officers of
organizations.
You know everyone's thinkingabout it, especially since
(03:04):
president elect Trump mentionedthat he's going to issue some
sort of retributive justice forpeople who've been wronged by
DEI, which ironically soundslike reparations, which he seems
not to be a fan of unless itadvances his own agenda, which
(03:30):
is interesting.
Karen McFarlane (03:32):
It's interesting, and I think the
scary part is it's very possiblethat would happen, right, if we
just go back to history, slaveowners were compensated when
slaves were freed and theirproperty was freed, and so it's
really just going back to theold playbook to further advance
(03:58):
certain groups of people on thebacks of other people.
And so, you know, one of thethings that I think is super
scary right around this newworld is that there aren't any
real guardrails around it.
I think we learned that from hislast presidency that a lot of
(04:20):
the things that we thought heldour democracy together were not
necessarily done by, you know,laws or other regulations.
They were mostly done becausepeople had ethics and values and
a belief in how to hold thatdemocracy together, and so I
think the anything is possibleis possible.
(04:50):
You know, the mantra here islike it really fits what could
happen in the future and whatthose policies will be right.
And so we see a lot ofcompanies.
We saw a lot of companiesretreat from their DEI programs
with things like what Trump istalking about with Stephen
(05:10):
Miller, who was one of thearchitects of one of the you
know one of the things we talkedabout in the very beginning of
our podcast around the fearlessfund and dismantling programs
that supported, you know,underrepresented groups,
particularly Black groups andalso around the affirmative
action ruling With him as deputychief of staff, right.
(05:34):
a lot of these things areamplified in very scary ways.
So what does that mean forinclusion in our world?
Brittany S. Hale (05:45):
What does that mean for inclusion?
Karen McFarlane (05:47):
in our world.
Brittany S. Hale (05:48):
You know it's a great question and so, just to
kind of take it back, I know,when it comes to the branches of
government the legislative,executive and judicial branches
we have, within ourrepresentative democracy, checks
and balances.
(06:08):
You know we've traditionallyrelied on these checks and
balances, whether it's theSupreme Court issuing a ruling
or an opinion, whether it's thelegislator, you know, putting
forth laws right through theHouse of Representatives through
the Senate or the executiveright, the president issuing
(06:32):
executive orders, and we sawwith the last Trump presidency,
I believe he issued some of themost, if not you know the um the
highest number of executiveorders, and so you're right, I
think.
Well, now we have um within theSupreme court.
(06:57):
I want to say it's six, threein favor of conservatives.
Republican majority in theSenate.
Yep, we have a new speaker,Republican, still contested, but
it seems like Republicans willmaintain a majority in the House
.
Yeah, and we now have anincoming Republican president
(07:24):
who I don't know if he wouldidentify himself as a Republican
right, he would just identifyhimself as himself.
And so I think what we've seen?
Compliance from a vast number ofRepublicans who are focused on
(07:54):
advancing Trump's agenda, andthis year they issued a report
on C-suite executives, about DEI, and, for those of you who
don't know, CHIEF is amembership community of women
(08:14):
executives.
Across the United Statesexecutives polled, we see that
about 80% of companies aremaintaining or increasing DEI
initiatives or investments,which I thought was interesting.
About 44% are expanding effortsand 40% of executives view DEI
(08:41):
as a core competency for C-suiteleadership view DEI as a core
competency for C-suiteleadership Thoughts.
Karen McFarlane (08:53):
I mean, I agree it's a positive trend.
I would love to see that surveytaken again, again in this new
political climate.
I do believe that most peoplefeel like it has value, whether
it's social value or businessvalue.
I do believe when they apply itstrategically and they measure
(09:17):
it, they can see those outcomes.
And I do believe a lot ofcompanies do try to embed those
principles, whatever they maycall it, within their
organizations.
Right?
My concern is, you know, becauseof the climate, because of you
know proposed, you know newmandates that we have yet to see
(09:47):
, right, but how does thataffect corporations still
embracing it?
Does it cause someorganizations to back off of it
completely?
Does it cause someorganizations to rebrand it?
Right?
Is the movement goingunderground rather than being
(10:11):
amplified out loud, and what'sthe repercussions of it going
underground versus theamplification?
Do people think it's going awaybecause it's going underground?
Right, the goal of DEI hasalways pretty much been to not
need it, been to not need it,but we're absolutely not there
(10:39):
yet.
So my concern is, if it does gounderground, a great, it's
still happening right In someform or fashion, but people
don't know it's happening anddon't understand its benefits.
So it loses some of thegravitas that it needs to have.
And if it's being rebranded,fine, as long as those outcomes
(11:00):
are still being measured andtalked about in a positive way.
Brittany S. Hale (11:05):
You know, as you were talking about the
options, and I've heard a lot ofthe same executives thinking
about ways that they can developcommunity as they seek to go
underground.
My question is, and probablyhas been for a while, whether or
not DEI has a PR problem.
(11:26):
Are we?
And I would say this, and I'mcurious to know what you think,
from a marketing perspective, itseems like DEI has a messaging
and a marketing issue, becausemost, I would argue everyone in
the workforce is an example ofdiversity, and DEI is not solely
(11:56):
just about race and gender.
As we've spoken about, equityis not solely just about race
and gender.
Those are examples andcomponents, but it's not just
that.
The fact that you're wearingglasses and I'm wearing contacts
right now is an example ofequity.
Right, we're provided withresources to allow for us to be
(12:18):
able to see something peopledon't think about.
When I hear people talk aboutgoing underground, my initial
response is when we think aboutwhat we're facing, some people
may say fascism, other peoplemay say an unduly restrictive
(12:42):
government or are anticipatingan unduly restrictive government
, which is atypical forRepublicans right Because.
Republicans are in favor ofsmall government and
deregulation.
Right Is the tenet and, I guess, the advice that you don't
comply in advance, yeah Right.
(13:08):
When I hear people say, oh, weneed to go underground, or don't
call it DEI, let's do ideas,jedi, all of this stuff To me
that seems like compliance inadvance that there's something
wrong with saying that.
What's your take on that?
Karen McFarlane (13:20):
Yeah.
So also going back to, does DEIhave a PR problem?
You know, I don't think it did.
I think that you know a smallgroup of people you know I'm not
(14:02):
little bit followed by gender,but primarily race and to use
that to, I want to say,manipulate people into thinking
that it was a negative thing.
We talked a little bit aboutthis on one of our earlier
(14:24):
podcasts around DEI and MEIright, and so MEI was merit.
Brittany S. Hale (14:36):
Oh shoot, I don't remember yet.
To be fair, Elon.
Musk didn't stay on the topicfor very long either, so I think
you're forgiven for forgetting.
Karen McFarlane (14:44):
Yeah, it wasn't even important.
Okay, right, but my point isthat there's, like you, all,
this propaganda against the EIright, focusing primarily on
race and then adeptly againusing, like the Civil Rights Act
(15:07):
and you know, other regulationsto fold around that so that it
looked as if this kind ofreverse discrimination was going
on, when you know we'reforgetting historically why this
law was created in the firstplace, right, and so we're
ignoring, you know, the realreasons behind the actual need
(15:31):
and the inequitable barriersthat have been, you know, risen
against certain groups of peopleover decades or centuries.
And so I don't know that it hasa PR problem, but you know it's
hard to fight propaganda when,when, especially in the
(15:53):
beginning of something wherepeople were really just starting
to embrace it and they'rereally trying to understand it
and do good, and it leans intofear you know, um, in terms of
compliance early, complyingearly yeah, I don't think you
should try to comply early, butyou should be prepared for
(16:14):
what's to come right.
If this was a different againdifferent Republican
administration, you could figureout your next step in a
well-thought-out, meaningful way, right, and you probably
wouldn't even be asked to do it.
Right.
You wouldn't really be asked tochange, to be honest, right.
(16:37):
But because you don't knowwhat's going to happen next, you
don't know the extremities ofwhat's going to be proposed,
because of the people who are inoffice that focus on the fringe
, because in the previousadministration we saw so many
(16:57):
horrible things, right, that wecouldn't believe, didn't believe
could happen, and then, whenthey did happen, we were shocked
, right.
I think that's where you getearly compliance from.
You get people thinking about,you know about how not to be
caught in the, but how to keepthe momentum going and track
your outcomes so that when thetime comes back around, you can
(17:44):
talk about it in a meaningfulway and show your progress.
Brittany S. Hale (17:50):
I think that makes a lot of sense, I predict,
and I guess it's good news forrisk management specialists,
business strategists around.
I think it's going to be reallyinteresting for us to figure
(18:11):
out ways to navigate through,and I think conflict is going to
become a huge point and we'venot to resolve it.
Karen McFarlane (18:27):
You know me.
Brittany S. Hale (18:27):
I'm never in favor of conflict resolution.
I am in favor of conflictcuriosity, because I think our
approach to conflict resolutionis to step away from conflict
and avoid it at all costs, atthe cost of developing
responsive and innovativesolutions to conflict.
(18:49):
When we think about it,conflict isn't fighting.
It's not folks tussling in thestreets, right.
It's, if anything, that gapbetween what we want and what
we're experiencing.
Yep and, more than anything,organizations, companies,
especially those who advance andsupport DEI initiatives are
(19:12):
experiencing and will continueto experience that space between
what they want and what they'reexperiencing, and the goal is
to figure out how to navigatethrough that.
It's not going away.
Karen McFarlane (19:27):
No, and you need conflict Conflict stretches
you Like.
Not all conflict is bad.
Conflict, right.
We experience conflict withinourselves all the time to
challenge ourselves, to dosomething different.
It could be something small,like what am I going to wear
today, right, but it could besomething other than that
Ordering out or cooking, exactly, exactly.
(19:49):
So I think that there's aredefinition.
I agree with you, and peoplethink about conflict as being a
bad thing and I think about itas being the necessary friction.
You need to level up and thinkdifferently.
And so, even with diversity,that conflict between people
(20:11):
because of those differences iswhat levels you up to think
differently.
That's why you can't have allthese like-minded people Like
who's going to stretch you?
Right, when you think aboutyour performance evaluations and
goals?
Right, like you have yourachievable goals, but you have
your stretch goals, your targetversus your achievable right.
(20:31):
Like don't you have.
Like you have your achievablegoals, but you have your stretch
goals, your target versus yourachievable right.
Ceos have those as well,because you need to be pushed
and you can only be pushedthrough conflict.
And so I don't think thatcompanies should, you know,
avoid it.
Right?
They should lean all the wayinto it to find those innovative
(20:52):
solutions on how to stillcreate community, how to still
build culture, how to stillembrace the diversity of people
and ideas that make them better.
So I guess the thing is forpeople to be brave in a very
different way than they havebeen before, and we don't
(21:15):
exactly know what that lookslike, right, but I think the
other flip side of this, too, iswhat happens when you walk away
from these principles andbehaviors.
Right, what do you openyourself up to?
So you just talked about riskbehaviors, right?
What do you open yourself up to?
So you just talked about riskmanagement, right?
So you know legally what doesthat mean?
(21:39):
Right?
So I don't know the answer tothis.
I think this is an interestingdebate, right, but like if the
mandate says, hey, you can'tfocus on inclusion, right,
(22:00):
diversity, equity, inclusion andsomeone who is of an
underrepresented groupexperiences inclusion, the lack
of inclusion in some way and canprove it what legal
consequences are there for youas an organization?
You know equal opportunitystill exists.
(22:22):
Anti-harassment, anti you knowall of these things still exist
that you have to abide by, andthose are mitigated by making
sure you have inclusivepractices within your
organization.
So you're caught in the middleof a rock and a hard place, and
(22:43):
I'm just scratching the surfacewhen I say that right, how are
you going to manage?
And this is a huge question forboards, a huge question for
senior leadership.
Brittany S. Hale (22:57):
One practical tidbit that our listeners will
get for free is, of course, Iwant them to think about the
administrative backlog andabsolute overwhelm that is in
store for them, as well as UScourts.
If you thought the pandemic wasbad, there are some court
(23:22):
districts that are still dealingwith cases from 2020, 2021,
just because of the sheerbacklog.
Yeah, yeah, with thesequestions to be interpreted both
on a federal and state level, Iknow most state courts, even
(23:44):
federal courts, are not equippedto deal with the sheer number
of cases that are poised to comethrough their halls Without DEI
(24:10):
, without expanding theworkforce, without expanding
opportunity to government thatthe Republican Party advertises
what makes them most appealingis going to be completely
discredited by what seems tocome.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I want ourlisteners executives leaders
(24:35):
within these organizations to beaware, if you're looking at DEI
through solely a moral lens,through a heart space lens, it's
not incorrect, it has its place, but practically we're stalling
innovation, we're stallingbusiness growth.
(25:00):
We're going to stall everythingthat seems to have been at
least articulated throughpolling, important to the
American people the economy, sowe're talking glasses.
Economy right, so we're talkingglasses.
Perfect example the conflictexperienced by people who, for
(25:22):
one reason or another, couldn'tget out to go to a store.
Spur the innovation and thedevelopment of a startup were be
parker.
Right now, you, you don't haveto leave your home for whatever
reason.
Agoraphobes could now purchaseright, people for whom mobility
(25:42):
is a barrier, or even justconvenience, right, you can
purchase items from your homeand have them delivered to you.
If we're shirking away from theconflict, if we're moving away
from innovative and inclusivesolutions because that's a bad
(26:05):
thing and we're going to bereceiving prescriptive
recommendations against that ata state and federal level what
innovation, what business growthis there going to be throughout
the country?
Karen McFarlane (26:23):
Innovation and inclusive practices are also
marketing practices, right,because it is about inviting
your audience, a broaderaudience and community, into
your fold.
And so what do you do?
How do you grow and build youraudiences if you're not talking
(26:43):
to them specifically andconnecting with them on who they
are?
We are emotional beings, right.
Markers want to tap into thoseemotions to get people to make
purchases, but we've learnedthat we've had to connect with
people in a very different way,and so you know leaders need to
(27:04):
really think about exactly whatyou're saying from that lens as
well and understand how itimpacts their business
negatively.
It's not just about peopletalking with their pocketbooks
and wanting to be aligned withorganizations that share their
values.
That's an important and hugepart of it, right, but
(27:30):
ultimately organizations need toexpand, right, and so how are
you going to do that withoutsome of these practices in place
?
It was on a webinar the otherday.
It was about executivecompensation and stuff, and they
(27:50):
were talking about the futureand how to think about setting
your CEO's targets, and a bigquestion which I thought was
really interesting was aroundERG, and the reason why ERG was
there was because they kind ofbifurcated how people thought
(28:13):
about that.
One was people would move moretowards sustainability when they
talked about ERG or moretowards DEI.
And one of the cautions on thiswebinar was that if you make
ERG a target for your CEO, wouldit be diluting some of the
(28:35):
other targets?
And so there's now conversationabout ERG from a D-I-Lens
really, right, that's the code.
Maybe it should no longer be atarget.
So the counter to that isreally, you know, indicative of
(28:55):
what we've seen in themarketplace, right?
So companies who were beingmore performative about it right
, they've gotten rid of theirprograms by whatever name
they've called it, right.
But companies for which havingan inclusive audience right,
having let's take the wordinclusive out having a larger
(29:17):
audience that you know welcomesin the largest group of people,
no matter who they are, right,you know, if that is important
to you, then you're going tolean more into ERG.
Which codename for that at thattime was DEI, right, and
(29:38):
talking about this.
So it just really encouragesorganizations to understand
their customers and theirbusiness and apply it
accordingly, but I thought itwas super interesting that this
is now.
the conversation is do we evenneed it as a primary target for
our CEO and if it's not, whatdoes that mean for the rest of
the organization?
How does that filter?
Brittany S. Hale (29:59):
down, correct, correct.
And I was having a conversationwith a woman about the
generational differences in theworkforce and she's now retired,
but she'd worked about 40 yearsin financial services, but she
came from the eastern block,okay, so she had a very.
(30:23):
Her perspective on thedifferences in the workforce was
uh, eventually they'll comply,because they'll have no choice.
People will either work inoffices or they will starve.
(30:46):
And as simple as that seems,we've seen that's not the case.
And so for those who areshirking away from that problem,
right, how do we quantify ERGs?
Maybe we don't need them at all, maybe we can.
Just, you know, people willneed jobs, people will need us,
(31:12):
and so we don't have to engagewith DEI.
We can skirt around it.
We're not in that space.
Karen McFarlane (31:16):
We definitely not.
It really does not speak to theintelligence level of
intelligence they put on theirpotential employees or their
current employees.
Right, like, people want tolive, you know, a good life for
themselves.
They want to make good money,they want to obtain wealth and,
while people may have to take ajob for a period of time, you
don't want them taking your joband finding ways to get out of
(31:39):
it Like, what's my next move?
Because my next move is nothere.
So while you may get some ofthose people, it's not going to
be all of the people.
You may not get the very bestpeople right.
You'll get somebody right, butis it really going to be the
person that's going to move yourorganization forward?
We see a lot of gig workers now.
We see a rise of the fractionalworker.
(32:01):
You know I used to be one oflike a couple.
Ok, now there's a sea offractionals.
We're seeing people createopportunities for themselves and
using all the available toolsout there.
So you're not only incompetition with the next
(32:22):
organization that is like yours,or not even like yours, because
we're more skills based now atthis point, but you're also in
competition with their dreamsand aspirations that can be
achieved outside of atraditional organization, so
it's something to think about.
Brittany S. Hale (32:42):
I think we've given them a whole lot to think
about and I think I know we'llcontinue to keep ideating along
the way and definitely keepingleaders accountable.
Karen McFarlane (32:56):
Absolutely, and I think the bright side if I
can find one right is really inthe part that we're talking
about conflict, right, like thatfriction that's going to make
us all better.
So there's going to be a lot offriction, I think I can predict
coming up right and we're goingto be learning together because
(33:18):
this is really a new era, right, and so, yeah, we'll continue
ideating, we'll share ideas,right, and hopefully we'll
figure it all out and mitigatesome of the damage that could
potentially occur.
Brittany S. Hale (33:39):
Yes, and hopefully you'll stick with us
as we do.
Karen McFarlane (33:45):
I hope so it should be an interesting time.
Well, it looks like Mina needsto take a nap.
Brittany S. Hale (33:53):
So we're keeping her up.
Karen McFarlane (33:58):
All right, we'll be back next time with the
E word See ya.
See ya.
Hi Brittany, hi Karen.
Brittany S. Hale (00:04):
How are you?
I am swell.
It's a full moon today.
I feel a little bit wonky, butright now I'm happily serving as
a bed for Mina.
Karen McFarlane (00:17):
Hi Mina.
She's resting as usual.
As usual, yes, a permanentaudience member.
I know, I know I need to comeback as your dog.
Brittany S. Hale (00:30):
Yes, it is always a great idea to come back
as a childless single Blackwoman's dog.
Her birthday was recently.
I thinly sliced a chickenbreast breast, sauteed it for
her.
Karen McFarlane (00:49):
She had a great time oh nice, you gotta come to
their house for dinner exactlyI just baked the chicken breast
for my dog.
There's no sauteing and stuffgoing on.
Brittany S. Hale (01:02):
Listen, it's still, but you did it.
You did it.
Only the best from our list.
Karen McFarlane (01:12):
So we are.
What are we?
A little more than one week outfrom the election?
Yeah, and, as our listenersshould know, we are both very
disappointed in the outcome,given who we had supported, or
still support, I'm not gonna sayhad, but still it's been a year
(01:34):
of a week, yeah but it has,although, to be honest, I've
mostly stayed out of the newsand social for the most part.
Just to you know, there's aflurry of activity, can be very
overwhelming and I had somethings I needed to focus on and
this would distract me quite abit.
(01:54):
But I think this weekend I'mready to kind of dive into
what's really happening.
I see, you know people call meand you know, obviously we talk
and then the notifications thatcome up on my phone are
unavoidable, yes, but um, yeah,it's going to be a really
(02:16):
different time and, um, you know, there's so many things to
unpack in what's going to behappening in the coming days,
months, years.
But you know, one piece of thatpie is the.
I don't know what therepercussions are.
(02:36):
What's next for diversity,equity, inclusion in this new
political climate?
Brittany S. Hale (02:42):
Yeah, I think that is top of mind, I would say
, for everyone but theprofessionals that I know who
are in the DEI space, the chiefdiversity officers of
organizations.
You know everyone's thinkingabout it, especially since
(03:04):
president elect Trump mentionedthat he's going to issue some
sort of retributive justice forpeople who've been wronged by
DEI, which ironically soundslike reparations, which he seems
not to be a fan of unless itadvances his own agenda, which
(03:30):
is interesting.
Karen McFarlane (03:32):
It's interesting, and I think the
scary part is it's very possiblethat would happen, right, if we
just go back to history, slaveowners were compensated when
slaves were freed and theirproperty was freed, and so it's
really just going back to theold playbook to further advance
(03:58):
certain groups of people on thebacks of other people.
And so, you know, one of thethings that I think is super
scary right around this newworld is that there aren't any
real guardrails around it.
I think we learned that from hislast presidency that a lot of
(04:20):
the things that we thought heldour democracy together were not
necessarily done by, you know,laws or other regulations.
They were mostly done becausepeople had ethics and values and
a belief in how to hold thatdemocracy together, and so I
think the anything is possibleis possible.
(04:50):
You know, the mantra here islike it really fits what could
happen in the future and whatthose policies will be right.
And so we see a lot ofcompanies.
We saw a lot of companiesretreat from their DEI programs
with things like what Trump istalking about with Stephen
(05:10):
Miller, who was one of thearchitects of one of the you
know one of the things we talkedabout in the very beginning of
our podcast around the fearlessfund and dismantling programs
that supported, you know,underrepresented groups,
particularly Black groups andalso around the affirmative
action ruling With him as deputychief of staff, right.
(05:34):
a lot of these things areamplified in very scary ways.
So what does that mean forinclusion in our world?
Brittany S. Hale (05:45):
What does that mean for inclusion?
Karen McFarlane (05:47):
in our world.
Brittany S. Hale (05:48):
You know it's a great question and so, just to
kind of take it back, I know,when it comes to the branches of
government the legislative,executive and judicial branches
we have, within ourrepresentative democracy, checks
and balances.
(06:08):
You know we've traditionallyrelied on these checks and
balances, whether it's theSupreme Court issuing a ruling
or an opinion, whether it's thelegislator, you know, putting
forth laws right through theHouse of Representatives through
the Senate or the executiveright, the president issuing
(06:32):
executive orders, and we sawwith the last Trump presidency,
I believe he issued some of themost, if not you know the um the
highest number of executiveorders, and so you're right, I
think.
Well, now we have um within theSupreme court.
(06:57):
I want to say it's six, threein favor of conservatives.
Republican majority in theSenate.
Yep, we have a new speaker,Republican, still contested, but
it seems like Republicans willmaintain a majority in the House
.
Yeah, and we now have anincoming Republican president
(07:24):
who I don't know if he wouldidentify himself as a Republican
right, he would just identifyhimself as himself.
And so I think what we've seen?
Compliance from a vast number ofRepublicans who are focused on
(07:54):
advancing Trump's agenda, andthis year they issued a report
on C-suite executives, about DEI, and, for those of you who
don't know, CHIEF is amembership community of women
(08:14):
executives.
Across the United Statesexecutives polled, we see that
about 80% of companies aremaintaining or increasing DEI
initiatives or investments,which I thought was interesting.
About 44% are expanding effortsand 40% of executives view DEI
(08:41):
as a core competency for C-suiteleadership view DEI as a core
competency for C-suiteleadership Thoughts.
Karen McFarlane (08:53):
I mean, I agree it's a positive trend.
I would love to see that surveytaken again, again in this new
political climate.
I do believe that most peoplefeel like it has value, whether
it's social value or businessvalue.
I do believe when they apply itstrategically and they measure
(09:17):
it, they can see those outcomes.
And I do believe a lot ofcompanies do try to embed those
principles, whatever they maycall it, within their
organizations.
Right?
My concern is, you know, becauseof the climate, because of you
know proposed, you know newmandates that we have yet to see
(09:47):
, right, but how does thataffect corporations still
embracing it?
Does it cause someorganizations to back off of it
completely?
Does it cause someorganizations to rebrand it?
Right?
Is the movement goingunderground rather than being
(10:11):
amplified out loud, and what'sthe repercussions of it going
underground versus theamplification?
Do people think it's going awaybecause it's going underground?
Right, the goal of DEI hasalways pretty much been to not
need it, been to not need it,but we're absolutely not there
(10:39):
yet.
So my concern is, if it does gounderground, a great, it's
still happening right In someform or fashion, but people
don't know it's happening anddon't understand its benefits.
So it loses some of thegravitas that it needs to have.
And if it's being rebranded,fine, as long as those outcomes
(11:00):
are still being measured andtalked about in a positive way.
Brittany S. Hale (11:05):
You know, as you were talking about the
options, and I've heard a lot ofthe same executives thinking
about ways that they can developcommunity as they seek to go
underground.
My question is, and probablyhas been for a while, whether or
not DEI has a PR problem.
(11:26):
Are we?
And I would say this, and I'mcurious to know what you think,
from a marketing perspective, itseems like DEI has a messaging
and a marketing issue, becausemost, I would argue everyone in
the workforce is an example ofdiversity, and DEI is not solely
(11:56):
just about race and gender.
As we've spoken about, equityis not solely just about race
and gender.
Those are examples andcomponents, but it's not just
that.
The fact that you're wearingglasses and I'm wearing contacts
right now is an example ofequity.
Right, we're provided withresources to allow for us to be
(12:18):
able to see something peopledon't think about.
When I hear people talk aboutgoing underground, my initial
response is when we think aboutwhat we're facing, some people
may say fascism, other peoplemay say an unduly restrictive
(12:42):
government or are anticipatingan unduly restrictive government
, which is atypical forRepublicans right Because.
Republicans are in favor ofsmall government and
deregulation.
Right Is the tenet and, I guess, the advice that you don't
comply in advance, yeah Right.
(13:08):
When I hear people say, oh, weneed to go underground, or don't
call it DEI, let's do ideas,jedi, all of this stuff To me
that seems like compliance inadvance that there's something
wrong with saying that.
What's your take on that?
Karen McFarlane (13:20):
Yeah.
So also going back to, does DEIhave a PR problem?
You know, I don't think it did.
I think that you know a smallgroup of people you know I'm not
(14:02):
little bit followed by gender,but primarily race and to use
that to, I want to say,manipulate people into thinking
that it was a negative thing.
We talked a little bit aboutthis on one of our earlier
(14:24):
podcasts around DEI and MEIright, and so MEI was merit.
Brittany S. Hale (14:36):
Oh shoot, I don't remember yet.
To be fair, Elon.
Musk didn't stay on the topicfor very long either, so I think
you're forgiven for forgetting.
Karen McFarlane (14:44):
Yeah, it wasn't even important.
Okay, right, but my point isthat there's, like you, all,
this propaganda against the EIright, focusing primarily on
race and then adeptly againusing, like the Civil Rights Act
(15:07):
and you know, other regulationsto fold around that so that it
looked as if this kind ofreverse discrimination was going
on, when you know we'reforgetting historically why this
law was created in the firstplace, right, and so we're
ignoring, you know, the realreasons behind the actual need
(15:31):
and the inequitable barriersthat have been, you know, risen
against certain groups of peopleover decades or centuries.
And so I don't know that it hasa PR problem, but you know it's
hard to fight propaganda when,when, especially in the
(15:53):
beginning of something wherepeople were really just starting
to embrace it and they'rereally trying to understand it
and do good, and it leans intofear you know, um, in terms of
compliance early, complyingearly yeah, I don't think you
should try to comply early, butyou should be prepared for
(16:14):
what's to come right.
If this was a different againdifferent Republican
administration, you could figureout your next step in a
well-thought-out, meaningful way, right, and you probably
wouldn't even be asked to do it.
Right.
You wouldn't really be asked tochange, to be honest, right.
(16:37):
But because you don't knowwhat's going to happen next, you
don't know the extremities ofwhat's going to be proposed,
because of the people who are inoffice that focus on the fringe
, because in the previousadministration we saw so many
(16:57):
horrible things, right, that wecouldn't believe, didn't believe
could happen, and then, whenthey did happen, we were shocked
, right.
I think that's where you getearly compliance from.
You get people thinking about,you know about how not to be
caught in the, but how to keepthe momentum going and track
your outcomes so that when thetime comes back around, you can
(17:44):
talk about it in a meaningfulway and show your progress.
Brittany S. Hale (17:50):
I think that makes a lot of sense, I predict,
and I guess it's good news forrisk management specialists,
business strategists around.
I think it's going to be reallyinteresting for us to figure
(18:11):
out ways to navigate through,and I think conflict is going to
become a huge point and we'venot to resolve it.
Karen McFarlane (18:27):
You know me.
Brittany S. Hale (18:27):
I'm never in favor of conflict resolution.
I am in favor of conflictcuriosity, because I think our
approach to conflict resolutionis to step away from conflict
and avoid it at all costs, atthe cost of developing
responsive and innovativesolutions to conflict.
(18:49):
When we think about it,conflict isn't fighting.
It's not folks tussling in thestreets, right.
It's, if anything, that gapbetween what we want and what
we're experiencing.
Yep and, more than anything,organizations, companies,
especially those who advance andsupport DEI initiatives are
(19:12):
experiencing and will continueto experience that space between
what they want and what they'reexperiencing, and the goal is
to figure out how to navigatethrough that.
It's not going away.
Karen McFarlane (19:27):
No, and you need conflict Conflict stretches
you Like.
Not all conflict is bad.
Conflict, right.
We experience conflict withinourselves all the time to
challenge ourselves, to dosomething different.
It could be something small,like what am I going to wear
today, right, but it could besomething other than that
Ordering out or cooking, exactly, exactly.
(19:49):
So I think that there's aredefinition.
I agree with you, and peoplethink about conflict as being a
bad thing and I think about itas being the necessary friction.
You need to level up and thinkdifferently.
And so, even with diversity,that conflict between people
(20:11):
because of those differences iswhat levels you up to think
differently.
That's why you can't have allthese like-minded people Like
who's going to stretch you?
Right, when you think aboutyour performance evaluations and
goals?
Right, like you have yourachievable goals, but you have
your stretch goals, your targetversus your achievable right.
(20:31):
Like don't you have.
Like you have your achievablegoals, but you have your stretch
goals, your target versus yourachievable right.
Ceos have those as well,because you need to be pushed
and you can only be pushedthrough conflict.
And so I don't think thatcompanies should, you know,
avoid it.
Right?
They should lean all the wayinto it to find those innovative
(20:52):
solutions on how to stillcreate community, how to still
build culture, how to stillembrace the diversity of people
and ideas that make them better.
So I guess the thing is forpeople to be brave in a very
different way than they havebeen before, and we don't
(21:15):
exactly know what that lookslike, right, but I think the
other flip side of this, too, iswhat happens when you walk away
from these principles andbehaviors.
Right, what do you openyourself up to?
So you just talked about riskbehaviors, right?
What do you open yourself up to?
So you just talked about riskmanagement, right?
So you know legally what doesthat mean?
(21:39):
Right?
So I don't know the answer tothis.
I think this is an interestingdebate, right, but like if the
mandate says, hey, you can'tfocus on inclusion, right,
(22:00):
diversity, equity, inclusion andsomeone who is of an
underrepresented groupexperiences inclusion, the lack
of inclusion in some way and canprove it what legal
consequences are there for youas an organization?
You know equal opportunitystill exists.
(22:22):
Anti-harassment, anti you knowall of these things still exist
that you have to abide by, andthose are mitigated by making
sure you have inclusivepractices within your
organization.
So you're caught in the middleof a rock and a hard place, and
(22:43):
I'm just scratching the surfacewhen I say that right, how are
you going to manage?
And this is a huge question forboards, a huge question for
senior leadership.
Brittany S. Hale (22:57):
One practical tidbit that our listeners will
get for free is, of course, Iwant them to think about the
administrative backlog andabsolute overwhelm that is in
store for them, as well as UScourts.
If you thought the pandemic wasbad, there are some court
(23:22):
districts that are still dealingwith cases from 2020, 2021,
just because of the sheerbacklog.
Yeah, yeah, with thesequestions to be interpreted both
on a federal and state level, Iknow most state courts, even
(23:44):
federal courts, are not equippedto deal with the sheer number
of cases that are poised to comethrough their halls Without DEI
(24:10):
, without expanding theworkforce, without expanding
opportunity to government thatthe Republican Party advertises
what makes them most appealingis going to be completely
discredited by what seems tocome.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I want ourlisteners executives leaders
(24:35):
within these organizations to beaware, if you're looking at DEI
through solely a moral lens,through a heart space lens, it's
not incorrect, it has its place, but practically we're stalling
innovation, we're stallingbusiness growth.
(25:00):
We're going to stall everythingthat seems to have been at
least articulated throughpolling, important to the
American people the economy, sowe're talking glasses.
Economy right, so we're talkingglasses.
Perfect example the conflictexperienced by people who, for
(25:22):
one reason or another, couldn'tget out to go to a store.
Spur the innovation and thedevelopment of a startup were be
parker.
Right now, you, you don't haveto leave your home for whatever
reason.
Agoraphobes could now purchaseright, people for whom mobility
(25:42):
is a barrier, or even justconvenience, right, you can
purchase items from your homeand have them delivered to you.
If we're shirking away from theconflict, if we're moving away
from innovative and inclusivesolutions because that's a bad
(26:05):
thing and we're going to bereceiving prescriptive
recommendations against that ata state and federal level what
innovation, what business growthis there going to be throughout
the country?
Karen McFarlane (26:23):
Innovation and inclusive practices are also
marketing practices, right,because it is about inviting
your audience, a broaderaudience and community, into
your fold.
And so what do you do?
How do you grow and build youraudiences if you're not talking
(26:43):
to them specifically andconnecting with them on who they
are?
We are emotional beings, right.
Markers want to tap into thoseemotions to get people to make
purchases, but we've learnedthat we've had to connect with
people in a very different way,and so you know leaders need to
(27:04):
really think about exactly whatyou're saying from that lens as
well and understand how itimpacts their business
negatively.
It's not just about peopletalking with their pocketbooks
and wanting to be aligned withorganizations that share their
values.
That's an important and hugepart of it, right, but
(27:30):
ultimately organizations need toexpand, right, and so how are
you going to do that withoutsome of these practices in place
?
It was on a webinar the otherday.
It was about executivecompensation and stuff, and they
(27:50):
were talking about the futureand how to think about setting
your CEO's targets, and a bigquestion which I thought was
really interesting was aroundERG, and the reason why ERG was
there was because they kind ofbifurcated how people thought
(28:13):
about that.
One was people would move moretowards sustainability when they
talked about ERG or moretowards DEI.
And one of the cautions on thiswebinar was that if you make
ERG a target for your CEO, wouldit be diluting some of the
(28:35):
other targets?
And so there's now conversationabout ERG from a D-I-Lens
really, right, that's the code.
Maybe it should no longer be atarget.
So the counter to that isreally, you know, indicative of
(28:55):
what we've seen in themarketplace, right?
So companies who were beingmore performative about it right
, they've gotten rid of theirprograms by whatever name
they've called it, right.
But companies for which havingan inclusive audience right,
having let's take the wordinclusive out having a larger
(29:17):
audience that you know welcomesin the largest group of people,
no matter who they are, right,you know, if that is important
to you, then you're going tolean more into ERG.
Which codename for that at thattime was DEI, right, and
(29:38):
talking about this.
So it just really encouragesorganizations to understand
their customers and theirbusiness and apply it
accordingly, but I thought itwas super interesting that this
is now.
the conversation is do we evenneed it as a primary target for
our CEO and if it's not, whatdoes that mean for the rest of
the organization?
How does that filter?
Brittany S. Hale (29:59):
down, correct, correct.
And I was having a conversationwith a woman about the
generational differences in theworkforce and she's now retired,
but she'd worked about 40 yearsin financial services, but she
came from the eastern block,okay, so she had a very.
(30:23):
Her perspective on thedifferences in the workforce was
uh, eventually they'll comply,because they'll have no choice.
People will either work inoffices or they will starve.
(30:46):
And as simple as that seems,we've seen that's not the case.
And so for those who areshirking away from that problem,
right, how do we quantify ERGs?
Maybe we don't need them at all, maybe we can.
Just, you know, people willneed jobs, people will need us,
(31:12):
and so we don't have to engagewith DEI.
We can skirt around it.
We're not in that space.
Karen McFarlane (31:16):
We definitely not.
It really does not speak to theintelligence level of
intelligence they put on theirpotential employees or their
current employees.
Right, like, people want tolive, you know, a good life for
themselves.
They want to make good money,they want to obtain wealth and,
while people may have to take ajob for a period of time, you
don't want them taking your joband finding ways to get out of
(31:39):
it Like, what's my next move?
Because my next move is nothere.
So while you may get some ofthose people, it's not going to
be all of the people.
You may not get the very bestpeople right.
You'll get somebody right, butis it really going to be the
person that's going to move yourorganization forward?
We see a lot of gig workers now.
We see a rise of the fractionalworker.
(32:01):
You know I used to be one oflike a couple.
Ok, now there's a sea offractionals.
We're seeing people createopportunities for themselves and
using all the available toolsout there.
So you're not only incompetition with the next
(32:22):
organization that is like yours,or not even like yours, because
we're more skills based now atthis point, but you're also in
competition with their dreamsand aspirations that can be
achieved outside of atraditional organization, so
it's something to think about.
Brittany S. Hale (32:42):
I think we've given them a whole lot to think
about and I think I know we'llcontinue to keep ideating along
the way and definitely keepingleaders accountable.
Karen McFarlane (32:56):
Absolutely, and I think the bright side if I
can find one right is really inthe part that we're talking
about conflict, right, like thatfriction that's going to make
us all better.
So there's going to be a lot offriction, I think I can predict
coming up right and we're goingto be learning together because
(33:18):
this is really a new era, right, and so, yeah, we'll continue
ideating, we'll share ideas,right, and hopefully we'll
figure it all out and mitigatesome of the damage that could
potentially occur.
Brittany S. Hale (33:39):
Yes, and hopefully you'll stick with us
as we do.
Karen McFarlane (33:45):
I hope so it should be an interesting time.
Well, it looks like Mina needsto take a nap.
Brittany S. Hale (33:53):
So we're keeping her up.
Karen McFarlane (33:58):
All right, we'll be back next time with the
E word See ya.
See ya.
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