June 25, 2025 • 33 mins
What does it mean when a university’s right to admit international students comes under legal challenge? In this episode, Karen and Brittany explore Harvard’s recent court victory and what it reveals about the balance between institutional autonomy, educational values, and evolving policy priorities.
At the heart of the case is a deeper conversation about academic freedom and the idea that universities should have the space to foster global learning environments and reflect a diversity of thought and experience. When those choices are constrained, it raises questions about how we define opportunity, innovation, and leadership in a modern world.
Karen and Brittany reflect on the value of cultural exchange in higher education, the innovation it drives, and why diverse perspectives are essential to preparing students for a complex, interconnected world. With examples ranging from groundbreaking inventions to the everyday technologies we rely on, they show how inclusive environments fuel progress for everyone.
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- Follow Brittany on LinkedIn and learn more at BND Consulting Group.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brittany S. Hale (00:01):
Hey Brittany Karen, how are you?
Karen McFarlane (00:04):
I'm hanging in there.
You know how, about you?
Brittany S. Hale (00:07):
Okay, okay, I like it.
I too am hanging in there.
You know I've been taking somefree classes at Harvard, Nice,
yeah, yeah, it's been prettycool.
I mean Harvard's been in thenews and I mean, of course, you
know Harvard's well known, it'sone of the oldest IVs in the
(00:30):
United States.
But you know, I started takingclasses after seeing that
Harvard got a restraining order,Did you?
Karen McFarlane (00:40):
see this, I totally saw that.
But even in regards to theclasses it felt like the
ultimate clapback.
All right, Totally.
Administrates this.
It was like here's some freecourses on, you know, the
Constitution for everybody totake advantage of.
I was like that is soincredibly smart.
Biggest troll, absolutelybiggest troll absolutely.
Brittany S. Hale (01:02):
you know, when I, when I was in undergrad, um,
I had this fantastic professorwho I don't think is still
living, jonathan lorry, and hetaught like an intro to law
course.
He's one of the reasons why Iended up in law school, and one
of the things that he requiredof everyone especially if you
(01:23):
were in the pre-law society, asI was was to carry around a
pocket constitution, and it issomething that I've continued to
do even today.
You can carry it around on yourphone, of course.
They have apps where you candownload the constitution, and
(01:44):
that is because, yeah, yeah,here we go yep, yep, um.
You never know when you need it,and it's always good to have on
hand so that you never have torely on someone else telling you
(02:06):
what it says.
You can just look for yourself.
Karen McFarlane (02:12):
Yeah, that's true.
That's true, yeah, but it feelslike it's under assault these
days in so many different ways.
Right, and yeah, harvard is atthe center of you know some
aspects of it.
Harvard is at the center ofsome aspects of it.
Brittany S. Hale (02:26):
Yeah, I mean, I'm also a huge fan of and this
is just hearkening back to mychildhood Schoolhouse Rock.
I'm just a Bill to focus on andto remember what it means to be
(02:47):
a US citizen, what theConstitution means, what the
protections are for people whoare not US citizens or not yet
US citizens.
So for those who may belistening and have a scant idea
(03:08):
of what we're talking about, afederal judge issued a TRO, or a
temporary restraining order,which blocked the current
administration from being ableto revoke Harvard University's
ability to enroll internationalstudents.
Now the current administrationsays that these international
students are from countries thatare not friendly to the United
(03:33):
States and they alleged they paynothing toward their students'
education.
And Harvard, which again is aprivate university, it's not a
public university.
Harvard, which again is aprivate university, it's not a
public university.
They argued that theadministration's revocation,
their ability to revoke theability to enroll international
(03:54):
students, is a blatant violationof the First Amendment.
If you're a little bit rusty onwhat the First Amendment is,
that your ability to, uh, haveprotected free speech.
I don't know if you wanted toread a little bit of the the
first amendment out, and and Ialways want to be, yeah, clear
(04:16):
that, um, all speech is notprotected.
I always want to be very, veryclear.
There's a difference betweenwhat protected speech is and
unprotected speech.
So unprotected speech arethings like hate speech or
incitement.
The famous example is you can'tyell fire in a crowded movie
(04:38):
theater where there is no firepresent.
That is not protected freespeech.
However, I found it, if youwant me to read it, that is not
protected free speech, however.
Karen McFarlane (04:47):
I found it.
If you want me to read it, oh,please do.
Okay, congress shall make nolaw respecting an establishment
of religion or prohibiting thefree exercise thereof, or
abridging the freedom of speechor of the press, or the right of
the people peaceably toassemble and to petition the
government for a redress ofgrievances.
Brittany S. Hale (05:12):
To petition the government for a redress of
grievances.
That's a that's a huge one,Right?
So you know, I think we're in atime where a lot of people feel
strongly about a lot ofdifferent things, and I guess
(05:37):
the founding fathers did notwant to create a space that may
have been counter to the monarchor any sort of monarchical
legislation or anything comingout of that.
And so, again, this is thefirst amendment to the
Constitution, right, Because itwanted to be very, very clear
(06:01):
about the type of country theyintended to create.
And so Harvard is saying thatthe government is by trying to
control who Harvard admitsthey're trying to control
Harvard's governance, theircurriculum and their ideology of
(06:22):
its faculty and students, andthey're very, very concerned
about what could be consideredto be broad overreach.
Karen McFarlane (06:33):
So I guess the big question is why?
Why do you want to control thegovernance and curriculum of
universities, right?
What is the end game in indoing right and um?
(06:54):
What that says to me is, if youwant to control I'm going to
specifically talk about thecurriculum that means you want
to control what people learn.
Right, and I guess, especiallyin dictatorships, it is best for
people to not truly understandtheir rights, to be uneducated
(07:16):
to a certain degree in order tobe, you know, manipulated or
guided in a certain direction.
And when you attack, you know,one of the most prestigious
universities that churn outreally intelligent or perceived
to be intelligent, a lot of, alot of schools churn out really
(07:38):
intelligent people, but Harvardis a symbol of that level of
intellect, right?
When you do that, what are yousaying, right?
Brittany S. Hale (07:48):
Yeah.
Karen McFarlane (07:49):
Yeah, and on top of the control of what
people are learning, this, thisattempt to unenroll foreign
students.
What is that saying?
Do we not want that globalperspective?
Do we not want to teach foreignstudents on the highest level?
(08:15):
I'm trying to figure out whatthe end game is, and the only
thing that I can come up with isto facilitate a dictatorship.
Brittany S. Hale (08:29):
You know.
So I thought about it, I triedto engage in the same exercise
as you and I said okay, I cansee if someone were a
nationalist, which many in thisadministration seem to be
America first.
Right, we want Harvard to admitmore US citizens into their
(09:12):
student body.
Let's say that's what they weredoing.
I then have to wrestle with thefact that in April in April,
they froze about $2.2 billion ingrants and contracts to Harvard
because Harvard didn't agree tothe policies that they demanded
(09:34):
when it came to hiring andadmissions.
And I have to assume that someof those policies because the
administration has beenstaunchly anti-DEI that some of
those policies would havemandated that Harvard no longer
(09:54):
hire or consider people ofvarying backgrounds, even if
they are US citizens, becausewe're not a homogenous nation.
Karen McFarlane (10:07):
Is reading between the lines.
Is it trying to compel Harvardto maybe roll back to the olden
days, Right, when universitiesonly admitted white males Right
and only admitted white malesright.
(10:30):
And again, through thatcontrolled educational and
controlled curriculum right,Educate this particular group
right In a particular way ofthinking?
That is America first.
And look, America first.
In its name, Right Is notterrible.
(10:51):
I just didn't realize.
It meant America only.
Hmm.
And that is verycounterintuitive to me, because
America has always been thismelting pot.
It is a nation, a country ofimmigrants, right, native
Americans are the only nativesto this land, right, and so it
(11:15):
just, uh, it just feels wrong,right, when we say, hey, you
know, we're a country ofimmigrants, but now we're no
longer, that we don't welcomeanybody else in this country or
we have to limit who comes inthis country based on a set
(11:37):
amount of criteria.
Also, this propaganda that isbasically saying that, you know,
the white race is beingdiscriminated against, right,
(12:03):
because of racist policies thathave now.
So, this reverse racismmentality, you know, and let me
just say, in some ways Iunderstand, right, um, I somehow
understand, but it ignores alot of history, practically all
history, about why we're here inthe first place and who created
(12:23):
these racist ideologies, right,right, and so I understand that
you know, this particular groupcould feel some sort of
backlash, particularly in thepast few years, that they're not
being represented, um, ortreated fairly, despite the fact
that for hundreds and hundredsof years, they were raised up
(12:44):
and treated as the top dog whenother groups were
underrepresented.
And it's really about thismentality that only one group
can have part of the pie right,and that's where the flaws lie
in all of this.
But regardless of how eithergroup feels right, doing to one
(13:07):
group what someone did to theother is not right.
Brittany S. Hale (13:10):
Yeah, and I want to be very clear that
people who are identified aswhite according to a census or
whatever are not the only peoplewho are Americans.
That's just inaccurate.
(13:32):
I know people who look like us,whose families have been here
since the 1800s.
I know people who are ItalianAmericans or who are identified
as white and who said oh, mygreat great great grandfather
came here in 1913.
And thus began our journey andthus began our Americanness.
(13:56):
So if we are and thus began ourAmericanness, so if we are
truly saying America first toyour point, right, the only
people who can truly say, hey,I've been here since the
(14:16):
beginning are IndigenousAmericans.
But when does that start?
How does that start?
When does that start?
How does that start?
What does it mean to beAmerican and what value does
that hold when it comes togaining an education?
Not the only country that'swrestled with this.
(14:40):
There have been other countriesthat have seen an increase in
immigrants and really had to askwhat that meant.
France is a country that comesto mind because I would say in
the past 15 years or so, theysaw a huge uptick in immigrants
(15:01):
into France and there seemed tobe a lot of anti-Muslim
sentiment from French citizensand their response, and I've
(15:21):
spoken about this with friendswho who live in France, who said
oh well, yes, there are somepeople who are you know who are
are being prejudiced, andthere's this very clear sense of
, uh, nationalist pride.
Right, we want you to be French, so if you are here, you speak
(15:45):
French, you engage in the samecustoms and you prioritize being
French over every otheridentity that you have.
Now, if we look back at theUnited States, we don't have an
official language right so wecan't say speak American.
(16:09):
People do say it, but it's notaccurate.
But what is it?
But again my question what doesit mean to be American?
What value are you bringing toclass being an American?
Because there's so manydifferent narratives of what it
means to be an American, and Ithink that's what makes it great
(16:29):
.
Karen McFarlane (16:31):
That's exactly the point is there is no one
definition of America.
America is a hodgepodge ofdifferent cultures.
It is a place that you'resupposed to be able to come and
bring your for lack of a betterterm authentic self and live
that in America and add to themelting pot Like it's a, it's a
(16:54):
big recipe that keeps, you know,just growing and you keep
adding different flavors to it,right, and it just makes it
taste and feel better, right,america is seasoned, okay,
essentially, and you know that'sone of the things that everyone
loves about it.
You know, if you just look atNew York City as just an example
(17:16):
of different neighborhoodswhere you can go and have these
different cultural experiencesand feel like you have traveled
to different countries throughthe, the food and the music and
and interactions that go beyondthat, that, that surface level
stuff, um, you really get toappreciate that there is not
(17:40):
just one way of being.
And then there's also, like, theinterconnectedness as you have,
cultures mix and mingle, youknow, either through friendships
or marriage or whatever thecase may be, you create this new
fabric of identity, right, andit connects us in so many
different ways and I think thatthere's a beauty in that that
(18:04):
connects us as human beings thathave different experiences that
we can share with one another,rather than being a place that
is known for having one specificexperience that everyone must
have, specific experience thateveryone must have.
And maybe there are places outthere that that's exactly what
(18:26):
it needs to be, but that, to me,is not America.
That's not how it was born,that's not how it was grown, and
for it to now turn intosomething homogenous feels just
counterintuitive to how it grewup in the first place.
Brittany S. Hale (18:46):
I love that point.
I've seen differentdescriptions, right.
So we all say the melting pot.
But I've also seen people say,okay, it's not as much a melting
pot, it's more like a mixedsalad.
Right, got some tomatoes yougot lettuce.
You got all of these thingscoming together.
(19:08):
They still remain the sameright.
Just because you mix thetomatoes and the carrots and the
lettuce together doesn't meanthat they cease being tomatoes
and carrots and lettuce right.
Rather, they come together.
But as you were speaking, I wasjust thinking, you know, and
maybe I'm just hungry, but I waslike I think America's kind of
like a seven layer dip.
Karen McFarlane (19:29):
Oh, okay.
Brittany S. Hale (19:31):
Because, again , each layer is its own distinct
self and unfortunately we dohave hierarchies or societal
hierarchies here.
But the point is, when youscoop it all out, everything,
all the flavors together, goreally well.
(19:53):
You wouldn't just want a a dipthat was just sour cream, right?
You wouldn't just want a dipthat was just sour cream, right?
You wouldn't just want a dipthat was just, you know, avocado
.
It's just nothing else, right,just completely mashed avocado.
It's the melding and the mixingand all of the flavors that go
well and makes us stronger, yeah, you know yeah.
(20:19):
Stronger you know, yeah.
Like my challenge today, Ithink, to our listeners would be
I would like for listeners togo a day only using the products
.
If we're saying America firstand if we're saying that the
(20:40):
only people who have good ideasare white men who identify as
American.
Right, go a whole day and onlyuse technologies, systems,
inventions that have only beencreated by white men.
Karen McFarlane (21:06):
Wait, you don't think that might be kind of
easy?
I don't know what it was, butin my head I'm like well.
I'm looking around right nowlike my computer my headphones.
Brittany S. Hale (21:22):
Maybe that might be kind of Indoor plumbing
you couldn't do.
But okay, let's go with yourcomputer and your headphones.
Are your headphones wireless?
Yes, Bluetooth.
Karen McFarlane (21:33):
Oh yes, that's right Okay.
Brittany S. Hale (21:35):
That's right.
Not happening.
Gps Not happening.
You're not leaving the house.
That's right.
Not happening.
Gps Not happening.
You're not leaving the house.
That's true.
You couldn't even drive becauseyou would have to deal with
stoplights, which were inventedMm-hmm, okay, yeah.
Indoor plumbing yeah.
Karen McFarlane (21:54):
You might need to draw people a roadmap.
Brittany S. Hale (21:57):
Yeah, you're not doing laundry.
Okay Washers and dryers.
Karen McFarlane (22:07):
True, all right .
Brittany S. Hale (22:08):
All right, challenge accepted, challenge
accepted, let's see what kind ofday you have.
And so, again, you know, Ithink it's really really
(22:28):
important for us to questionwhether or not that makes sense,
to think okay if I only went bythis.
Karen McFarlane (22:31):
Yeah, I think people may argue though, because
there's always a counter rightthat, yeah, going forward, we
can absolutely do that.
Right, and it's also scary thatthat is the goal.
Right, because the goal itseems to be, as we've looked at
(22:57):
over the past couple of years,to, you know, cut off or limit
funding to underrepresentedgroups, right, and things of
that nature.
There is a nap with theanti-DEI sentiment, right, they
(23:29):
claim it's not merit-based, butthere's a specific movement with
an undertone to make sure thatcertain groups don't reach
positions of power and influence.
So there seems to be thisoverarching desire again to
uplift, once again, certaingroups to the detriment of other
groups.
Once again, right, certaingroups to the detriment of other
groups.
And so does it make thequestion is does America first
mean America only, and doesAmerica only mean only certain
(23:52):
groups?
Brittany S. Hale (23:54):
Yeah, I mean, yes, america only means only
certain groups, and that'sunfortunate because there are so
many other groups that arepatriotic, invested in this
country, want to see thiscountry succeed, want to see
(24:15):
this country thrive, want to bepart of, and critical to that
success.
Yeah, and have been and havebeen.
Karen McFarlane (24:29):
So I just did really quick.
Brittany S. Hale (24:30):
Google.
Everyday technology invented bywomen Dishwasher, windshield
wipers, home security system,electric refrigerator, wi-fi and
GPS, hedy Lamarr, of course,caller ID and call waiting.
Affordable facts, the touchtonetelephone, solar cells, fiber
(25:09):
optic cables.
So no Wi-Fi net, no dial up.
All right, so there's that.
And then, of course, if I gofor black americans, automatic
elevator doors, folding ironingboard, the traffic signal, the
gas mask, the portable electrichair straightener, uh, automatic
gear shifts, so you couldn'tdrive.
All right.
Technology for telephones andfaxes, coffee filters, tons and
(25:32):
tons of inventions that we useevery day and that we just go
okay.
Nameless, faceless people.
Karen McFarlane (25:42):
Yeah, yeah, and it's also a shame that we see
our history, black history inparticular, under attack.
I think I just read that theAfrican American Museum in
(26:02):
Boston just got its funding cutunder right under the anti-DEI
agenda.
And you know, those types ofmoves are again just very
telling and frustrating, becausewhy is Black history anti-DEI,
(26:24):
right?
So all of these things thatyou're just listing, even for
women, if no one knows thatthese people existed, that they
were contributors to society, ifyou can't see it, you can't
believe it.
Check mark on this list ofcontrolling what people know
(26:52):
about themselves right,controlling the educational
system, and we can see remnantsof that right from our history,
especially during slavery, whenthey didn't want enslaved people
to read or write or to knowanything, because that was a
level of control, even when yousee these cuts to Medicaid and
(27:16):
Social Security, these are allthings that create unsure
footing for particularlyvulnerable people, people.
And when you combine that andyou combine a lack of education,
right, you really create thiscommunity of people that are
very susceptible to propagandaand that can't go or learn how
(27:40):
to access the better informationfor themselves.
Right, and it just feels veryintentional.
And again I go back to thisbroader question what is the
ending?
What is the big why?
What are we not seeing that ishappening even behind the scenes
(28:04):
?
That is not reported on, right,um, because what's reported on
is the shiny objects, yes, well,a whole lot of other stuff is
going on in the dark.
So we have to be like wary.
We have to, um, we have to, inmany ways, uphold our
(28:31):
educational institutions.
They have problems Right.
Harvard's under attack for alot of different reasons, right,
but it is still a beacon.
These colleges and universitiesare still a beacon of education
that help us grow and developour critical thinking and
creative thinking skills thatare so important for us to
advance in human society andhelp us grow as individuals as
(28:56):
well in our families.
So education is still somethingthat we need to reach for,
however we achieve it.
And so, yes, we need to upholdthese banners.
They need to be fixed andcorrected.
They're not without flaws, butif they're not there at all, if
they're being controlled by thegovernment, if certain
individuals are banned I mean,if foreign students are banned
(29:20):
and that ban upholds, then we goon to the next tier, right, who
does that affect?
Brittany S. Hale (29:26):
Right, and mutual investment for
diplomacy's sake.
Right To know that we canestablish a shared brain trust,
yeah, and that exposure to oneanother's worlds and cultures.
Maybe I'm just being optimistic, but friendship creates a space
(29:49):
where you know we can beconnected.
Karen McFarlane (29:55):
Absolutely, absolutely.
We only, we only grow bylearning from one another.
Like you, just can't talk tothe same people and do the same
thing.
Brittany S. Hale (30:05):
I mean you can't that's.
I think that's that's.
That's the goal.
Right is talk to the samepeople, do the same thing, rinse
and repeat but uh, how is thatinnovative?
Karen McFarlane (30:23):
I mean, america has been this culture of
advancement and innovation forthe longest period of time.
It's's led industries rightSince it began right.
Brittany S. Hale (30:31):
America is a baby country.
The United States is a babycountry because of people's
innovation and ingenuity.
Karen McFarlane (30:40):
Exactly.
So what does that look like inthe future?
Or maybe are we just wrong?
Maybe, if we become soincredibly insular, we grow.
I don't know Right, I don't seethat, but maybe that's my
limited thinking.
I don't have access to all theinformation.
All I know is when I interactwith different people and
(31:04):
cultures, it makes me better,yes, and when I see that in
organizations that embrace thediversity of their people and
all that they bring to the table, it makes them better.
So why wouldn't it make thecountry better?
Brittany S. Hale (31:29):
Excellent question.
Karen McFarlane (31:32):
These big questions.
So, harvard, keep fighting back.
Yes, harvard Law School allright to good use and show
everybody why they still need tofight to come there, exactly.
And pay tons and tons and tonswe know that you need the
(31:52):
foreign, foreign students tocome right, for not only let's
keep it real, not only for uh,that that diverse perspective,
but foreign students tend to payfull tuition as well.
Right, americans can't afford.
Brittany S. Hale (32:05):
Yes, they are not.
Federal aid is not available tothem.
Karen McFarlane (32:10):
Exactly, and so you know there's an economic
driver there as well.
But we need the schools to cometogether and fight back.
I mean, at the end of the day,one person, one organization,
one university can't do all thestuff alone, so they need to
(32:31):
form coalitions, because ifHarvard loses, guess who they're
coming after?
Yep, it's a long game, we'llsee.
We'll keep watching.
Brittany S. Hale (32:46):
As will I.
Karen McFarlane (32:47):
As will Mina, yes, mina, bye Mina, right Mina
we'll keep an eye on it we will,until next time, see ya, see ya
, brittany.
Hey Brittany Karen, how are you?
Karen McFarlane (00:04):
I'm hanging in there.
You know how, about you?
Brittany S. Hale (00:07):
Okay, okay, I like it.
I too am hanging in there.
You know I've been taking somefree classes at Harvard, Nice,
yeah, yeah, it's been prettycool.
I mean Harvard's been in thenews and I mean, of course, you
know Harvard's well known, it'sone of the oldest IVs in the
(00:30):
United States.
But you know, I started takingclasses after seeing that
Harvard got a restraining order,Did you?
Karen McFarlane (00:40):
see this, I totally saw that.
But even in regards to theclasses it felt like the
ultimate clapback.
All right, Totally.
Administrates this.
It was like here's some freecourses on, you know, the
Constitution for everybody totake advantage of.
I was like that is soincredibly smart.
Biggest troll, absolutelybiggest troll absolutely.
Brittany S. Hale (01:02):
you know, when I, when I was in undergrad, um,
I had this fantastic professorwho I don't think is still
living, jonathan lorry, and hetaught like an intro to law
course.
He's one of the reasons why Iended up in law school, and one
of the things that he requiredof everyone especially if you
(01:23):
were in the pre-law society, asI was was to carry around a
pocket constitution, and it issomething that I've continued to
do even today.
You can carry it around on yourphone, of course.
They have apps where you candownload the constitution, and
(01:44):
that is because, yeah, yeah,here we go yep, yep, um.
You never know when you need it,and it's always good to have on
hand so that you never have torely on someone else telling you
(02:06):
what it says.
You can just look for yourself.
Karen McFarlane (02:12):
Yeah, that's true.
That's true, yeah, but it feelslike it's under assault these
days in so many different ways.
Right, and yeah, harvard is atthe center of you know some
aspects of it.
Harvard is at the center ofsome aspects of it.
Brittany S. Hale (02:26):
Yeah, I mean, I'm also a huge fan of and this
is just hearkening back to mychildhood Schoolhouse Rock.
I'm just a Bill to focus on andto remember what it means to be
(02:47):
a US citizen, what theConstitution means, what the
protections are for people whoare not US citizens or not yet
US citizens.
So for those who may belistening and have a scant idea
(03:08):
of what we're talking about, afederal judge issued a TRO, or a
temporary restraining order,which blocked the current
administration from being ableto revoke Harvard University's
ability to enroll internationalstudents.
Now the current administrationsays that these international
students are from countries thatare not friendly to the United
(03:33):
States and they alleged they paynothing toward their students'
education.
And Harvard, which again is aprivate university, it's not a
public university.
Harvard, which again is aprivate university, it's not a
public university.
They argued that theadministration's revocation,
their ability to revoke theability to enroll international
(03:54):
students, is a blatant violationof the First Amendment.
If you're a little bit rusty onwhat the First Amendment is,
that your ability to, uh, haveprotected free speech.
I don't know if you wanted toread a little bit of the the
first amendment out, and and Ialways want to be, yeah, clear
(04:16):
that, um, all speech is notprotected.
I always want to be very, veryclear.
There's a difference betweenwhat protected speech is and
unprotected speech.
So unprotected speech arethings like hate speech or
incitement.
The famous example is you can'tyell fire in a crowded movie
(04:38):
theater where there is no firepresent.
That is not protected freespeech.
However, I found it, if youwant me to read it, that is not
protected free speech, however.
Karen McFarlane (04:47):
I found it.
If you want me to read it, oh,please do.
Okay, congress shall make nolaw respecting an establishment
of religion or prohibiting thefree exercise thereof, or
abridging the freedom of speechor of the press, or the right of
the people peaceably toassemble and to petition the
government for a redress ofgrievances.
Brittany S. Hale (05:12):
To petition the government for a redress of
grievances.
That's a that's a huge one,Right?
So you know, I think we're in atime where a lot of people feel
strongly about a lot ofdifferent things, and I guess
(05:37):
the founding fathers did notwant to create a space that may
have been counter to the monarchor any sort of monarchical
legislation or anything comingout of that.
And so, again, this is thefirst amendment to the
Constitution, right, Because itwanted to be very, very clear
(06:01):
about the type of country theyintended to create.
And so Harvard is saying thatthe government is by trying to
control who Harvard admitsthey're trying to control
Harvard's governance, theircurriculum and their ideology of
(06:22):
its faculty and students, andthey're very, very concerned
about what could be consideredto be broad overreach.
Karen McFarlane (06:33):
So I guess the big question is why?
Why do you want to control thegovernance and curriculum of
universities, right?
What is the end game in indoing right and um?
(06:54):
What that says to me is, if youwant to control I'm going to
specifically talk about thecurriculum that means you want
to control what people learn.
Right, and I guess, especiallyin dictatorships, it is best for
people to not truly understandtheir rights, to be uneducated
(07:16):
to a certain degree in order tobe, you know, manipulated or
guided in a certain direction.
And when you attack, you know,one of the most prestigious
universities that churn outreally intelligent or perceived
to be intelligent, a lot of, alot of schools churn out really
(07:38):
intelligent people, but Harvardis a symbol of that level of
intellect, right?
When you do that, what are yousaying, right?
Brittany S. Hale (07:48):
Yeah.
Karen McFarlane (07:49):
Yeah, and on top of the control of what
people are learning, this, thisattempt to unenroll foreign
students.
What is that saying?
Do we not want that globalperspective?
Do we not want to teach foreignstudents on the highest level?
(08:15):
I'm trying to figure out whatthe end game is, and the only
thing that I can come up with isto facilitate a dictatorship.
Brittany S. Hale (08:29):
You know.
So I thought about it, I triedto engage in the same exercise
as you and I said okay, I cansee if someone were a
nationalist, which many in thisadministration seem to be
America first.
Right, we want Harvard to admitmore US citizens into their
(09:12):
student body.
Let's say that's what they weredoing.
I then have to wrestle with thefact that in April in April,
they froze about $2.2 billion ingrants and contracts to Harvard
because Harvard didn't agree tothe policies that they demanded
(09:34):
when it came to hiring andadmissions.
And I have to assume that someof those policies because the
administration has beenstaunchly anti-DEI that some of
those policies would havemandated that Harvard no longer
(09:54):
hire or consider people ofvarying backgrounds, even if
they are US citizens, becausewe're not a homogenous nation.
Karen McFarlane (10:07):
Is reading between the lines.
Is it trying to compel Harvardto maybe roll back to the olden
days, Right, when universitiesonly admitted white males Right
and only admitted white malesright.
(10:30):
And again, through thatcontrolled educational and
controlled curriculum right,Educate this particular group
right In a particular way ofthinking?
That is America first.
And look, America first.
In its name, Right Is notterrible.
(10:51):
I just didn't realize.
It meant America only.
Hmm.
And that is verycounterintuitive to me, because
America has always been thismelting pot.
It is a nation, a country ofimmigrants, right, native
Americans are the only nativesto this land, right, and so it
(11:15):
just, uh, it just feels wrong,right, when we say, hey, you
know, we're a country ofimmigrants, but now we're no
longer, that we don't welcomeanybody else in this country or
we have to limit who comes inthis country based on a set
(11:37):
amount of criteria.
Also, this propaganda that isbasically saying that, you know,
the white race is beingdiscriminated against, right,
(12:03):
because of racist policies thathave now.
So, this reverse racismmentality, you know, and let me
just say, in some ways Iunderstand, right, um, I somehow
understand, but it ignores alot of history, practically all
history, about why we're here inthe first place and who created
(12:23):
these racist ideologies, right,right, and so I understand that
you know, this particular groupcould feel some sort of
backlash, particularly in thepast few years, that they're not
being represented, um, ortreated fairly, despite the fact
that for hundreds and hundredsof years, they were raised up
(12:44):
and treated as the top dog whenother groups were
underrepresented.
And it's really about thismentality that only one group
can have part of the pie right,and that's where the flaws lie
in all of this.
But regardless of how eithergroup feels right, doing to one
(13:07):
group what someone did to theother is not right.
Brittany S. Hale (13:10):
Yeah, and I want to be very clear that
people who are identified aswhite according to a census or
whatever are not the only peoplewho are Americans.
That's just inaccurate.
(13:32):
I know people who look like us,whose families have been here
since the 1800s.
I know people who are ItalianAmericans or who are identified
as white and who said oh, mygreat great great grandfather
came here in 1913.
And thus began our journey andthus began our Americanness.
(13:56):
So if we are and thus began ourAmericanness, so if we are
truly saying America first toyour point, right, the only
people who can truly say, hey,I've been here since the
(14:16):
beginning are IndigenousAmericans.
But when does that start?
How does that start?
When does that start?
How does that start?
What does it mean to beAmerican and what value does
that hold when it comes togaining an education?
Not the only country that'swrestled with this.
(14:40):
There have been other countriesthat have seen an increase in
immigrants and really had to askwhat that meant.
France is a country that comesto mind because I would say in
the past 15 years or so, theysaw a huge uptick in immigrants
(15:01):
into France and there seemed tobe a lot of anti-Muslim
sentiment from French citizensand their response, and I've
(15:21):
spoken about this with friendswho who live in France, who said
oh well, yes, there are somepeople who are you know who are
are being prejudiced, andthere's this very clear sense of
, uh, nationalist pride.
Right, we want you to be French, so if you are here, you speak
(15:45):
French, you engage in the samecustoms and you prioritize being
French over every otheridentity that you have.
Now, if we look back at theUnited States, we don't have an
official language right so wecan't say speak American.
(16:09):
People do say it, but it's notaccurate.
But what is it?
But again my question what doesit mean to be American?
What value are you bringing toclass being an American?
Because there's so manydifferent narratives of what it
means to be an American, and Ithink that's what makes it great
(16:29):
.
Karen McFarlane (16:31):
That's exactly the point is there is no one
definition of America.
America is a hodgepodge ofdifferent cultures.
It is a place that you'resupposed to be able to come and
bring your for lack of a betterterm authentic self and live
that in America and add to themelting pot Like it's a, it's a
(16:54):
big recipe that keeps, you know,just growing and you keep
adding different flavors to it,right, and it just makes it
taste and feel better, right,america is seasoned, okay,
essentially, and you know that'sone of the things that everyone
loves about it.
You know, if you just look atNew York City as just an example
(17:16):
of different neighborhoodswhere you can go and have these
different cultural experiencesand feel like you have traveled
to different countries throughthe, the food and the music and
and interactions that go beyondthat, that, that surface level
stuff, um, you really get toappreciate that there is not
(17:40):
just one way of being.
And then there's also, like, theinterconnectedness as you have,
cultures mix and mingle, youknow, either through friendships
or marriage or whatever thecase may be, you create this new
fabric of identity, right, andit connects us in so many
different ways and I think thatthere's a beauty in that that
(18:04):
connects us as human beings thathave different experiences that
we can share with one another,rather than being a place that
is known for having one specificexperience that everyone must
have, specific experience thateveryone must have.
And maybe there are places outthere that that's exactly what
(18:26):
it needs to be, but that, to me,is not America.
That's not how it was born,that's not how it was grown, and
for it to now turn intosomething homogenous feels just
counterintuitive to how it grewup in the first place.
Brittany S. Hale (18:46):
I love that point.
I've seen differentdescriptions, right.
So we all say the melting pot.
But I've also seen people say,okay, it's not as much a melting
pot, it's more like a mixedsalad.
Right, got some tomatoes yougot lettuce.
You got all of these thingscoming together.
(19:08):
They still remain the sameright.
Just because you mix thetomatoes and the carrots and the
lettuce together doesn't meanthat they cease being tomatoes
and carrots and lettuce right.
Rather, they come together.
But as you were speaking, I wasjust thinking, you know, and
maybe I'm just hungry, but I waslike I think America's kind of
like a seven layer dip.
Karen McFarlane (19:29):
Oh, okay.
Brittany S. Hale (19:31):
Because, again , each layer is its own distinct
self and unfortunately we dohave hierarchies or societal
hierarchies here.
But the point is, when youscoop it all out, everything,
all the flavors together, goreally well.
(19:53):
You wouldn't just want a a dipthat was just sour cream, right?
You wouldn't just want a dipthat was just sour cream, right?
You wouldn't just want a dipthat was just, you know, avocado
.
It's just nothing else, right,just completely mashed avocado.
It's the melding and the mixingand all of the flavors that go
well and makes us stronger, yeah, you know yeah.
(20:19):
Stronger you know, yeah.
Like my challenge today, Ithink, to our listeners would be
I would like for listeners togo a day only using the products
.
If we're saying America firstand if we're saying that the
(20:40):
only people who have good ideasare white men who identify as
American.
Right, go a whole day and onlyuse technologies, systems,
inventions that have only beencreated by white men.
Karen McFarlane (21:06):
Wait, you don't think that might be kind of
easy?
I don't know what it was, butin my head I'm like well.
I'm looking around right nowlike my computer my headphones.
Brittany S. Hale (21:22):
Maybe that might be kind of Indoor plumbing
you couldn't do.
But okay, let's go with yourcomputer and your headphones.
Are your headphones wireless?
Yes, Bluetooth.
Karen McFarlane (21:33):
Oh yes, that's right Okay.
Brittany S. Hale (21:35):
That's right.
Not happening.
Gps Not happening.
You're not leaving the house.
That's right.
Not happening.
Gps Not happening.
You're not leaving the house.
That's true.
You couldn't even drive becauseyou would have to deal with
stoplights, which were inventedMm-hmm, okay, yeah.
Indoor plumbing yeah.
Karen McFarlane (21:54):
You might need to draw people a roadmap.
Brittany S. Hale (21:57):
Yeah, you're not doing laundry.
Okay Washers and dryers.
Karen McFarlane (22:07):
True, all right .
Brittany S. Hale (22:08):
All right, challenge accepted, challenge
accepted, let's see what kind ofday you have.
And so, again, you know, Ithink it's really really
(22:28):
important for us to questionwhether or not that makes sense,
to think okay if I only went bythis.
Karen McFarlane (22:31):
Yeah, I think people may argue though, because
there's always a counter rightthat, yeah, going forward, we
can absolutely do that.
Right, and it's also scary thatthat is the goal.
Right, because the goal itseems to be, as we've looked at
(22:57):
over the past couple of years,to, you know, cut off or limit
funding to underrepresentedgroups, right, and things of
that nature.
There is a nap with theanti-DEI sentiment, right, they
(23:29):
claim it's not merit-based, butthere's a specific movement with
an undertone to make sure thatcertain groups don't reach
positions of power and influence.
So there seems to be thisoverarching desire again to
uplift, once again, certaingroups to the detriment of other
groups.
Once again, right, certaingroups to the detriment of other
groups.
And so does it make thequestion is does America first
mean America only, and doesAmerica only mean only certain
(23:52):
groups?
Brittany S. Hale (23:54):
Yeah, I mean, yes, america only means only
certain groups, and that'sunfortunate because there are so
many other groups that arepatriotic, invested in this
country, want to see thiscountry succeed, want to see
(24:15):
this country thrive, want to bepart of, and critical to that
success.
Yeah, and have been and havebeen.
Karen McFarlane (24:29):
So I just did really quick.
Brittany S. Hale (24:30):
Google.
Everyday technology invented bywomen Dishwasher, windshield
wipers, home security system,electric refrigerator, wi-fi and
GPS, hedy Lamarr, of course,caller ID and call waiting.
Affordable facts, the touchtonetelephone, solar cells, fiber
(25:09):
optic cables.
So no Wi-Fi net, no dial up.
All right, so there's that.
And then, of course, if I gofor black americans, automatic
elevator doors, folding ironingboard, the traffic signal, the
gas mask, the portable electrichair straightener, uh, automatic
gear shifts, so you couldn'tdrive.
All right.
Technology for telephones andfaxes, coffee filters, tons and
(25:32):
tons of inventions that we useevery day and that we just go
okay.
Nameless, faceless people.
Karen McFarlane (25:42):
Yeah, yeah, and it's also a shame that we see
our history, black history inparticular, under attack.
I think I just read that theAfrican American Museum in
(26:02):
Boston just got its funding cutunder right under the anti-DEI
agenda.
And you know, those types ofmoves are again just very
telling and frustrating, becausewhy is Black history anti-DEI,
(26:24):
right?
So all of these things thatyou're just listing, even for
women, if no one knows thatthese people existed, that they
were contributors to society, ifyou can't see it, you can't
believe it.
Check mark on this list ofcontrolling what people know
(26:52):
about themselves right,controlling the educational
system, and we can see remnantsof that right from our history,
especially during slavery, whenthey didn't want enslaved people
to read or write or to knowanything, because that was a
level of control, even when yousee these cuts to Medicaid and
(27:16):
Social Security, these are allthings that create unsure
footing for particularlyvulnerable people, people.
And when you combine that andyou combine a lack of education,
right, you really create thiscommunity of people that are
very susceptible to propagandaand that can't go or learn how
(27:40):
to access the better informationfor themselves.
Right, and it just feels veryintentional.
And again I go back to thisbroader question what is the
ending?
What is the big why?
What are we not seeing that ishappening even behind the scenes
(28:04):
?
That is not reported on, right,um, because what's reported on
is the shiny objects, yes, well,a whole lot of other stuff is
going on in the dark.
So we have to be like wary.
We have to, um, we have to, inmany ways, uphold our
(28:31):
educational institutions.
They have problems Right.
Harvard's under attack for alot of different reasons, right,
but it is still a beacon.
These colleges and universitiesare still a beacon of education
that help us grow and developour critical thinking and
creative thinking skills thatare so important for us to
advance in human society andhelp us grow as individuals as
(28:56):
well in our families.
So education is still somethingthat we need to reach for,
however we achieve it.
And so, yes, we need to upholdthese banners.
They need to be fixed andcorrected.
They're not without flaws, butif they're not there at all, if
they're being controlled by thegovernment, if certain
individuals are banned I mean,if foreign students are banned
(29:20):
and that ban upholds, then we goon to the next tier, right, who
does that affect?
Brittany S. Hale (29:26):
Right, and mutual investment for
diplomacy's sake.
Right To know that we canestablish a shared brain trust,
yeah, and that exposure to oneanother's worlds and cultures.
Maybe I'm just being optimistic, but friendship creates a space
(29:49):
where you know we can beconnected.
Karen McFarlane (29:55):
Absolutely, absolutely.
We only, we only grow bylearning from one another.
Like you, just can't talk tothe same people and do the same
thing.
Brittany S. Hale (30:05):
I mean you can't that's.
I think that's that's.
That's the goal.
Right is talk to the samepeople, do the same thing, rinse
and repeat but uh, how is thatinnovative?
Karen McFarlane (30:23):
I mean, america has been this culture of
advancement and innovation forthe longest period of time.
It's's led industries rightSince it began right.
Brittany S. Hale (30:31):
America is a baby country.
The United States is a babycountry because of people's
innovation and ingenuity.
Karen McFarlane (30:40):
Exactly.
So what does that look like inthe future?
Or maybe are we just wrong?
Maybe, if we become soincredibly insular, we grow.
I don't know Right, I don't seethat, but maybe that's my
limited thinking.
I don't have access to all theinformation.
All I know is when I interactwith different people and
(31:04):
cultures, it makes me better,yes, and when I see that in
organizations that embrace thediversity of their people and
all that they bring to the table, it makes them better.
So why wouldn't it make thecountry better?
Brittany S. Hale (31:29):
Excellent question.
Karen McFarlane (31:32):
These big questions.
So, harvard, keep fighting back.
Yes, harvard Law School allright to good use and show
everybody why they still need tofight to come there, exactly.
And pay tons and tons and tonswe know that you need the
(31:52):
foreign, foreign students tocome right, for not only let's
keep it real, not only for uh,that that diverse perspective,
but foreign students tend to payfull tuition as well.
Right, americans can't afford.
Brittany S. Hale (32:05):
Yes, they are not.
Federal aid is not available tothem.
Karen McFarlane (32:10):
Exactly, and so you know there's an economic
driver there as well.
But we need the schools to cometogether and fight back.
I mean, at the end of the day,one person, one organization,
one university can't do all thestuff alone, so they need to
(32:31):
form coalitions, because ifHarvard loses, guess who they're
coming after?
Yep, it's a long game, we'llsee.
We'll keep watching.
Brittany S. Hale (32:46):
As will I.
Karen McFarlane (32:47):
As will Mina, yes, mina, bye Mina, right Mina
we'll keep an eye on it we will,until next time, see ya, see ya
, brittany.
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