September 8, 2025 • 43 mins
What does it really mean to pivot with purpose? In this episode of The E Word, Brittany and Karen discuss the layered controversy around Tabitha Brown’s viral advice to struggling entrepreneurs: “Get a job.” What seems like simple, practical wisdom sparked unexpected backlash, revealing just how deeply social media resists nuance.
Drawing from their own experiences with task management and necessary change, the hosts explore the deeper implications of pivoting in entrepreneurship. Using the SPENT framework, they highlight how Sophia (philosophic wisdom) and Phronesis (good judgment) are essential in evaluating when a shift is not a setback but a strategy. They dive into the data—like how Black women receive less than 0.25% of venture capital—to ground the conversation in Episteme (facts), while also honoring the intuitive and creative aspects of resilience.
Is pivoting a sign of failure, or a powerful act of self-trust and sustainability?
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- Follow Brittany on LinkedIn and learn more at BND Consulting Group.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Karen McFarlane (00:06):
Hi, brittany Hi .
Brittany S. Hale (00:08):
Karen.
Karen McFarlane (00:11):
We are back for another episode of the E-Word.
It's exciting.
Brittany S. Hale (00:17):
It is exciting .
Karen McFarlane (00:18):
How are you?
I'm good.
I've been super busy the pastcouple of weeks just getting all
of my to-dos in order.
You know, when you start makinga list of all the things you
have to do and you start to lookat it, it becomes very
overwhelming.
But I think I have a processnow for focusing a little bit
better than I have in the past,so it feels good to tick things
(00:41):
off.
Brittany S. Hale (00:43):
Do you want to share a little bit about what
that process is, or is that tobe continued?
Karen McFarlane (00:48):
It's still to be continued, but, you know,
over the years I have alwaystried to find a particular
system that didn't annoy me whenthings popped up in front of me
in terms of what I had to doBecause I ultimately am not the
best list maker Like somethingthat I put on the list is really
a multi-step process, right.
So, it, you know, and somethings are, oh, I can do this in
(01:10):
three minutes and so.
But I also didn't want it tolive outside of, I guess, my
calendar.
So I never truly properly usedGoogle Tasks.
It's very simple and, while youmight want some more bells and
whistles, for me the simplicityis perfect and I can see this
(01:31):
whole board in front of me.
I guess it's kind of like aTrello board or maybe a sauna
board, but those things liveoutside of my calendar and you
kind of look at all of thosethings and I have them in
different categories and it'ssorted by the date.
So I could say, hey, today I'msupposed to work on these three,
four things, and then I canmove the dates around fairly
easily because I'm mostlyaccountable to myself and I
(01:55):
don't have to feel so bad aboutit, because you feel bad when
you keep seeing things thatyou're missing.
It will say past, but I can belike, okay, that could just go
for next week.
So this is working for me forthe past couple of weeks, okay,
and we'll see if it keepsworking, just updated.
I will.
I will, but we're going to talkabout something.
Brittany S. Hale (02:24):
It sounds like your task list was kind of a
plot twist to how you werenormally functioning right.
You had to switch something.
It wasn't working.
You had to pivot Right, andthere's a certain wisdom in that
right.
So when we're talking abouteudaimonia, when we're talking
(02:47):
about the seven virtues, ifyou're unfamiliar with that, go
back what two, three episodesand we're breaking that down.
But I think embracing the pivotis really one of the most, if
not the most, valuable skillright now.
Karen McFarlane (03:09):
I totally agree .
I mean, with what's going on inthe political environment, in
the economy, particularly withcertain demographics.
Pivoting is the top skill thatyou have to embrace, and I think
it's about recognizing whereyou are, what the environment is
(03:33):
, and then trying to figure outyour place in the world and how
you might have to shift in orderto recalibrate and take your
place in a new way in this world.
Brittany S. Hale (03:44):
And that's okay, it's experimentation, it's
totally fine, and I thinkthere's some other people who
are okay with it.
So I am in the midst of a pivotMore to share soon, which I'm
really excited about, okay.
And so I was just scrollingthrough my timeline and I saw
(04:07):
Tabitha Brown.
Are you familiar?
Karen McFarlane (04:10):
Yeah, I know a little bit about her, but we
should share more about her forthe audience.
Brittany S. Hale (04:15):
For those who are unfamiliar, tabitha Brown is
an actress and influencer andinspiration to many.
I believe she still has achildren's show on Netflix.
She kept many of us companyduring the pandemic with words
of inspiration and recently hada licensing deal with Target
(04:40):
where she licensed her image fora number of vegan products food
products, I think she had maybelike a hair care line, some
houseware items as well.
She is a vegan and I thinkthat's part of what drew people
(05:02):
to her is that she's makingvegan cooking and the vegan
lifestyle a little bit moreaccessible and flavorful to
people who were unfamiliar withit.
Am I missing anything?
Karen McFarlane (05:17):
I think you got everything Actress, author,
cook, influencer, business ownercreator.
The ultimate portfolio careerexample.
Brittany S. Hale (05:34):
And such a ray of sunshine, at least from my
perspective.
I've come across her posts, andso her post on I want to say
(06:00):
maybe it was last Tuesday, thesecond she posted a video and
she just quote entrepreneurship.
It's not for everybody, thatdoesn't mean it's not for you,
but right now, these last fewmonths, few years, she says,
baby, if it ain't been workingfor you and you're doing a lot
of robbing Peter to pay Paul,it's time for you to get a job.
(06:20):
Initial thoughts andimpressions.
Karen McFarlane (06:26):
Well, given her background and just the context
of her total brand andpersonality.
I am personally not offended bythat opinion.
And let's be clear, it's heropinion, right, and it's her
opinion based on the collectionof her experiences.
(06:48):
So oftentimes we look tosuccessful people and we want to
know how they got it done.
You know what was their mindset, what were the specific steps
they took.
We look to them for advice andcounsel.
She's offering free advice andcounsel again from her
perspective on her social mediachannel.
(07:09):
But what was a littleconcerning is the minute people
don't like what that is.
Then they add some other layersto it that may or may not have
been there.
Brittany S. Hale (07:23):
Exactly, and I should note that Tamitha is
also.
She's also very open about herfaith, and so in the video she
says you can have a dream, youcan have a goal, you can have a
vision that God has given youand you can still have a job
while pursuing it.
Talking to people who burnt alltheir bridges up?
You burnt your bridges becauseyou refused to get a little side
hustle or job, to have incomecoming in while pursuing your
(07:45):
passion.
I'm not talking to people whoare trying to get jobs.
I'm not talking about thepeople who do have a little job.
I'm Victor Stillheart.
I'm not talking about you, andthis was an Assemblant video
that she needed to post toclarify because there was such
outrage and such a strongresponse.
I was actually really surprisedby how strong the response was
(08:12):
to what she said, because Ithought what she said was
emblematic of the conversationsthat I've been having seeing had
among so many entrepreneurs.
You know, I think it's justpart of the journey, right?
(08:32):
Entrepreneurs have that journeywhere there's ups and downs and
sometimes you know those pivotsare important to sustain
yourself.
I don't think anybody's askingfor you to start in the messy
minute, right?
No, it's just one pathway,right?
Karen McFarlane (08:52):
So many of the previous models of
entrepreneurship really lookedlike a very straight line to
success.
You work hard, you dig deep,you focus, you ignore everything
else around you and successwill come to you.
And that really happens for afew people, right.
(09:16):
But, like you said, the messymiddle people really don't talk
about the messy middle becauseit is messy, it's not clean and
clear.
Talk about the messy middlebecause it is messy, it's not
clean and clear.
But that's the part that peoplereally need to understand is
it's not this straight shot tothe top.
Many times you have to, as wetalked about in the beginning,
pivot and pivot a few times, notjust one time.
(09:38):
It might be three, four, five,10 times, until you get to the
place where you need to be.
And when I hear her say that, Ifeel like she's specifically
talking to the people where itmay just not be working in the
way that you envisioned it rightnow and you're struggling and
(10:03):
you have a choice, that'schoices to continue the struggle
and suffer, to have thatamazing story where you rise to
the top right, which could bepossible, or you pivot to create
some stability for yourself sothat you can now refocus and do
(10:23):
what you have always dreamt todo.
That's what I hear from whatshe says.
Brittany S. Hale (10:30):
I think that makes a lot of sense.
And you know I mean duringmarketing.
You know I understand the valueof having the straight shot
story.
It's easy to digest, it's quick, it's punchy and it's
(10:52):
aspirational and for many peopleit's inaccessible.
Yeah, so we know that for manyentrepreneurs, especially
entrepreneurs who are women,that that messy middle is
(11:13):
complicated by familialobligations, whether it's
children, parents, significantothers.
There's tons of things that cantug at your attention and
there's rarely the expectationthat you silo yourself and dig
in and focus and wear the sameT-shirt three months in a row
(11:38):
and eat ramen, you know, for ayear there are women who are
doing it, but that's rarely theexpectation for some of the
unicorns or the women that wesee.
Right, the expectation is thatyou are friendly, that you're
(12:00):
affable, that you're likable,that you're doing great work and
you look great doing it, andthat just seems kind of
disjointed.
Right, it doesn't seem alignedwith the more marketable story,
but you were the marketingexpert, so I defer to you there.
Karen McFarlane (12:20):
I mean, no, that's true, we always want to
have a great story to tell andas an entrepreneur, you're
supposed to build that storyright.
People buy into you as a person, rather than to the brand, more
readily the brand you're tryingto build, and sometimes that's
synonymous with the brand, andas you get bigger, than those
things separate.
And so I think that story iscritical.
(12:41):
But the other piece too, whichis, I think, part of the story,
is access to capital, and womenhave less access.
Black women have lesser accessto capital.
I could just kind of think of,in my past, for example, my
friend and I.
We always wanted to beentrepreneurs and we were really
(13:03):
fond of experimentation.
At one point I had my job atHBO, but I was still doing my
entrepreneur ventures on theside and at some point I stopped
working.
I actually left HBO and went toanother company, but I left
that company to go full throttleon the music business.
(13:24):
We were in music at the timeand we started our own
independent record label and weput out an artist and she was
doing really, really well.
However, we ran out of moneyand so that actually stopped
that business, that independentrecord label, which, by the way,
(13:45):
I'm pretty sure we were thefirst female Black-owned
independent record label If notthe first, then maybe the second
.
But we were pioneers in thatspace.
But because we lost access tocapital, that was the end of
that story.
Brittany S. Hale (14:03):
And so that's really critical.
I'm not the most worried, bythe way.
I just want to make clear toour listeners that I too am
learning this for the first timeand endlessly impressed once
again.
So more on that later.
Karen McFarlane (14:16):
But okay, yes, but anyway, I'm just telling
that story to say that there'sso much further that she and I
could have gone if A we hadaccess to capital.
B particularly in the musicindustry, people really didn't
take us seriously as womenbecause of who we were, and even
(14:37):
while we were doing it, we puta man in front of us who worked
for us, but we put him as, like,the main face in order to get
access to certain rooms andsituations to help us, you know,
get to where we wanted to go.
But ultimately it came down tothe money.
So you can have a great story,but it has to be backed by that
(15:00):
access and that capital, andthat's something that you know
we all, well, many of us lack inthe same way that they don't
have access to, in the same waythat other groups may have
access to it.
Brittany S. Hale (15:16):
Right, right, right, right.
(15:37):
And to put some numbers behindit.
On average, we know that womentend to receive less than 1% of
any sort of venture capital.
Black women especially get lessthan half a percent and it's
closer to a quarter of 1% thananything.
And that is troubling for a lotof reasons.
Right, because you are nowhaving to bootstrap every last
bit of your business, everypayroll, every new program.
Right, it gets expensive.
(15:58):
And so you know, I know thatfrom my experience, you know
that from your experience.
So, in seeing Tabitha speakabout this, I didn't at by this
in any particular way, but forme it was more so if we scope
(16:29):
out, even sharing her opinion,where we see a lot of headlines
about 300,000 Black women,within the past six months, I
believe, or you know, havinglost their jobs.
And this being, what does thismean for the American economy?
(16:51):
What does it mean, not only forthese women in this group but
the country, these women in thisgroup, but the country?
A lot of people seem to takewhat she said as insensitive in
light of that happening, and Isee them as two different
(17:12):
conversations.
But I again, I don't know Withthat backing does it?
Do you receive her messagingany differently?
I?
Karen McFarlane (17:19):
don't know.
With that backing, do youreceive her messaging any
differently?
No, because I think one thingthat we as users of these
platforms, as people who engagewith these different
personalities, have tounderstand or remember is, yes,
(17:41):
context in the moment matters,but we also have to layer in
full context of the person'sbrand, personality and
experiences, and so no one wantsto be judged for one moment
right Without that full context,and I feel like that's what
(18:05):
happens way too often whenpeople speak out about something
.
Social media is, in many ways,an informal opportunity to
connect with your audiences.
It would be much different forme if she did a written piece in
(18:28):
Forbes or wherever, becausethere's an opportunity to you
know, research different aspectsof that and formulate an
opinion about you know the topicin a more in-depth and
meaningful way.
This is a clip, essentiallyright, and it does not, to me,
(18:51):
represent her full opinion aboutanything Like you want to be
able to have a discourse withher, like if we were on a panel
or a fireside.
She would make that comment andwe'd do some back and forth
around it and then you wouldhave fuller context.
So we need to allow people thatgrace and too often everything
(19:13):
is looked at in a very siloedway and judged and blown up from
that perspective, and that'swhy it doesn't change anything
for me.
Brittany S. Hale (19:24):
Yeah, and that's really my concern is is
it too late for us to considercontext?
Is it too late for us to valuecontext?
Because, again, I, I admit Iprefer longer form social media
because it is hard to gaincontext.
(19:45):
You have to be immenselytalented to get your point
across in 90 seconds or less andeven then people are going to
want you to expound, to gofurther, to share other opinions
, found to say you know to gofurther to share other opinions.
So a longer form really doeslend itself to getting the
(20:07):
message across.
But the timeline is is harsh,right, that's so many
impressions.
Before she could, she had toput out a second video to
clarify her statement because ofand I wonder if sometimes
there's a commitment tomisunderstanding, you know, so
(20:28):
that people can get acrosswhatever it is that they want to
platform, right, so you know.
Karen McFarlane (20:34):
I agree with that.
The social discourse isn'talways honest and meant to
elicit positivity.
It is meant to stir the pot inmany ways, and also we're
intrigued by that.
We're being honest, right, welike the controversy.
(20:59):
Let's also be honest.
Would we be talking about thisif there was no controversy
today?
And so we all contribute tothat in some form or fashion and
have to be critical about whatwe're viewing, what we're seeing
(21:21):
, right?
It's just like now, when I'm onsocial and I see a video, I
have to now ask myself is thisAI?
Yeah, and it's getting harderand harder To tell the
difference, just for ourlisteners.
Brittany S. Hale (21:43):
You know the videos of the cats flipping
pancakes, or you know dogsjumping on trampolines, you know
, and they can be really great.
Right, look at this securityfootage of these bears enjoying
time on a trampoline.
It's not real, you know.
Karen McFarlane (22:02):
But then there are other things that are people
interacting in a certain wayand you're like wait a second
Right.
Is this real or did this reallyhappen?
I love the thinking.
Brittany S. Hale (22:15):
You know what do the hands look like Exactly?
What do the hands look likeExactly?
Sometimes you'll look in thebackground and people's faces
are distorted in these reallygnarly ways, and so you have to
(22:39):
again.
Karen McFarlane (22:39):
You probably spend more time trying to
discern whether or not it's AIthan you did, consuming the
content Exactly, and we can evenpull it back.
Sometimes because of what'sgoing on out there in the world,
people will post content thatactually is old, but we don't
know that it's old and we thinkit is happening today because it
adds to whatever discourse isgoing on, and so we're also not
(23:00):
used to doing the research tovet the information for
ourselves, and it's a lot ofwork to do it when you're really
on the platform to beentertained.
Brittany S. Hale (23:12):
For the most part, you want to have this
three, five, seven minute videoand then continue to scroll
without a second thought, andthat also lends itself to
increasingly binary thinking.
That concerns me.
(23:34):
So if I agree with her ordisagree with her, then turns to
I love her, I hate her andeverything else is just
confirmation bias at the sameright.
So I generally have a positiveview of Tabitha Brown.
I find her to be warm, at leastfrom what I've seen and how she
(23:58):
conducts herself, and she'savailing herself of the internet
.
Right, this is part of theinternet and I can hold space to
say, oh, I agree with thispoint.
Maybe I don't agree at thispoint.
Maybe, you know, I can holdspace for the nuance, but that
(24:20):
space is rapidly shrinking forall of us, right, because if you
don't agree with everything,you're an enemy.
Karen McFarlane (24:32):
Yeah, and that space and grace is really
important because we're alsomaking assumptions.
So we're assuming or these, thedissenters, are assuming that
she knew about she knew the jobsnumbers, like they're assuming
that she's relating it to that,they're assuming that that all
(24:52):
of this is part of her Right.
But the people who aredefending her, like me and you,
we're also assuming that shedidn't know All right, or that
it wasn't part of it.
We don't know at the end of theday.
So part of me is like okay, askher and then, once she answers,
(25:16):
then you can have an opinionabout that answer Right, and it
could still go down a rabbithole.
If she says, no, I wasn't aware, then you can be like well, how
don't you know?
Brittany S. Hale (25:30):
How did you not know this?
Yeah, these people support youand this is not what you're
doing.
You know there's no grace,because it could be I was on a
flight and I didn't pay for theWi-Fi.
I was taking a nap, I wasspending time with my children.
(25:51):
There's so many reasons andways that it could say she could
be shooting her show and in themiddle say you know what?
This is something that I'vebeen feeling, that's been on my
heart Again, maybe informed byprivate conversations that she's
had with people in her circlewho have said you know what?
I need to supplement my incomebecause what I thought would
(26:13):
support it did not In the past.
She's spoken about her journeyto being an actress and how
she's had to do things in theinterim and lean on her husband
for support.
And you know, again, she didn'ttake off.
Take off right until thepandemic, when she was at home,
(26:36):
like the rest of us at home,like the rest of us, decided to
make content about her life, herlifestyle choices, eating food,
all that type of stuff.
Karen McFarlane (26:50):
Who knew Exactly.
And so her journey, when wetalk about pivots too, is like a
very slow start and then boom,which is great.
But it took a while to get tothis point.
And now she's here and she'soffering her perspective.
We also don't know, like whydid she even decide to make that
comment Right?
(27:11):
Like what prompted her to dothat Right?
What could be a simple answer?
Of course I'm making this up,but she could have been
somewhere talking to somebodywho was struggling in this
moment.
She gave that piece of adviceand she was like oh you know,
maybe I should just share thatwith everyone because that could
(27:31):
help a few more people, Like Ihelped this person who thought
it was good advice, I mean, youknow.
So, again, nuance, grace andspace, I think, are key lessons
we have to take from anything weengage with on the internet,
(27:53):
and also to your point aboutrecognizing our own biases and
how that plays into how we viewwhat we engage with.
Brittany S. Hale (28:04):
Right, Right, Because I think even to
interpret it in a way that isharmful is to suggest that even
having to do that would be.
There's something shamefulabout it, you know, uh, which
could could lead to anotherconversation, but I just, I
(28:30):
don't know, I don't know.
And so when I, when I thinkabout the E word, when I think
about pneumonia and that lifewell lived, it's to me uh, often
being grounded and admired inconflict and helping people see
their way through right, Closingthat gap between what we want
and what we're experiencing.
(28:51):
Very often, the key to closingthat gap is embracing the change
that you're confronted with.
Yeah, and so when I see this,when I see these pivots, you
know, or these plot twists, as Ilike to call them, very often
it leads to things that youdidn't know.
(29:14):
You know who knew the Brownkept sending out, you know her
headshots and said staying awayfrom social media.
I don't know that she would behousehold name, I don't know
that she would be in people'scupboards and, you know, on
people's TV screens.
But you know, here she is, Iguess.
Karen McFarlane (29:37):
And she's using the platform and there's going
to be good and there's going tobe bad with it.
That comes with it, and I meanyou have to be ready for any of
that.
But one thing you said made mejust want to pose this question,
although I'm not sure how toreally word it, so I'll say it
and then maybe I'll have tocorrect it.
(29:57):
But when we think aboutconflict and we think about the
people making comments and wejust talked about some of the
just genuinely like dishonestcommentary why do people want to
(30:19):
have this conflict?
Brittany S. Hale (30:22):
Or specifically, why do they?
Karen McFarlane (30:22):
want to have this conflict with her?
Right, because they couldeasily watch it and keep moving,
yeah, and not environment atall Right, but they choose to
engage in this and create thislevel of conflict.
That's hard to manage, I think,because you're trying to
(30:51):
Tabitha is trying to, especiallywith her second post right
Communicate.
No, I didn't mean this, I meantthat, but she's kind of doing
it one way.
So we have access to thisperson to say all sorts of
positive and inflammatory things, and their ability to respond
is limited in the traditionalcountry.
Brittany S. Hale (31:13):
Right, absolutely.
So I'm just going to checkreally quickly because I don't
want to misquote my numbers.
Um, when it comes to, when itcomes to Threads, which is the
space where I saw this, she'sactually an Emmy Award winning
(31:35):
host.
We forgot that, but she has 1.1million followers.
She can travel the ground.
You're absolutely right.
Her ability to respond tohowever many responses there
were to that video severelylimited.
(31:57):
Okay, she just couldn't.
It's not going to happen, okay.
Okay, so there were, with thatparticular post, 649 people
(32:17):
directly responded, even then,sizable the number of people it
reached.
So people reposting it orquoting it over a hundred people
doing that.
So if you and you may say, okay,it's only a hundred, to sit
there and make a hundreddifferent videos to respond to
(32:38):
what people are saying, to make649 different videos to type out
649 different responses, it'snot happening.
Most people do not have thetime or interest in doing that.
So I think, to answer yourquestion, why do people do it?
Because in platforms, it'salways going to benefit them,
(33:02):
right, in this particular space,there's a power imbalance.
But the great thing aboutsocial media is that you have
access to people you normallywouldn't have access to.
You might have written astrongly worded letter before,
whereas now you can post a videoresponse.
You can tag Tabitha and if sheresponds to you, that vaults you
(33:26):
to a level of visibility youwould never have reached
otherwise right If she choosesto respond.
Her 1.1 million followers mayhave eyes on you.
And then the question becomesdo you have anything of value to
offer?
Response, right, that's thechallenge with virality, right?
(33:48):
You know a lot of people, Ithink, get that huge dopamine
rush saying, oh my gosh, all ofthese people are liking or
commenting, or you know whatever.
The question is what happensafter that?
What else do you have to offer?
And if it's just simply to showup to disagree with a
(34:12):
particular figure, that's notmuch, I don't think.
Karen McFarlane (34:18):
I mean, you're right, you know I oftentimes,
when I'm, you know, on Instagramor whatever, I decide if I'm
going to comment or not.
And part of my decision makingis does it really matter if I
comment or not?
Why do I feel the need tocomment positively or negatively
(34:39):
?
Because I actually am notlooking for anyone to respond to
me, to be honest, and sometimesI do comment.
Most of the times it's justabout I feel like I need to
express my feelings and move on,and sometimes my feelings
(34:59):
aren't that nice, and those areusually when I don't comment.
Usually.
I'm not saying never Cause.
I'll write something out andthen I'm like, am I doing this?
And then I delete it, so like II understand the whole what
comes next part is a veryimportant question.
You need to ask yourself, like,why are you doing this?
(35:20):
Do you need to just expressyourself yeah and it's one and
done and keep it moving, or doyou really want to engage in a
meaningful dialogue and debatedifferent points of view?
So I think also the mediummatters.
Yes, as I complained to youbefore, you introduced me to
(35:42):
Reddit and so you know,occasionally I will post my
opinion and go back and forthwith various people.
Brittany S. Hale (35:55):
Right.
Right, because you have longform responses, you're also
willing to get long formresponses and people have a
little bit more space to benuanced and thoughtful Not that
they always are, but there'smore space to discuss things you
know in depth.
(36:16):
So, quick, quick, bravo.
Housewives tangent.
It's relevant, I promise.
Karen Huger of Real Housewivesof Potomac fame was recently
released after serving almost ayear for her driving while under
(36:38):
the influence, and local newsstations were interviewing
people who showed up, one ofwhich was a woman who became
Reddit famous if that is a thingbecause she went to the public
trial and she was posting liveupdates of Karen's trial during
(37:02):
the trial, so much so that thejudge had an open warning saying
you know, whoever is postingshould stop.
You know, and so she's.
There are thousands of peoplewho now and she herself, she's
an accountant right, I'm anaccountant, I work from home.
(37:25):
My boss also loves the show andis like totally fine with me
being here.
You know, so it was.
It makes the world smaller andin some ways it can be affirming
and nice to know that the worldis smaller in that way, and
then other times, you know, notso much um, and then other times
(37:51):
, you know, not so much.
Karen McFarlane (37:52):
I mean you're right, I mean so.
I mean we're talking abouttabitha, we're talking about the
pros and cons of social media.
You know, there's a definitepro, which is, again, we also
talk about access.
It gives people access.
It gives people a voice in away that wasn't there before.
I think another episode weshould talk about is that voice
good or like?
What was the world like when wedidn't have that level of
(38:14):
access?
Was it better or was it worse?
And what are the pros and consof that?
Because the fact that anaccountant can just become
Reddit famous for, you know,posting about housewives is like
crazy, but also amazing in thesame vein, right.
So what is that Right?
Brittany S. Hale (38:37):
Before she was anonymous, she could just post.
But now people don't like theway she looks, or people want to
dig more into her life, or, youknow, they disagree with her
opinion and then they, you know,reach out to her business Like
that's the the double-edgedsword of it all.
That's true.
Karen McFarlane (38:56):
But I'll, I'll.
I'll point this part will agree, which I like.
All right, I like very much andI will upvote them.
They agree.
And then the people I disagreewith.
(39:18):
I don't like, however, and itmight take me longer to respond,
but I will always respond, I,and it might take me longer to
respond, but I will alwaysrespond.
And I'm practicing risk tryingto respect that other point of
view, because I post my houselife stuff, so I have a very
strong opinion about it and Ifeel like everybody should agree
with what I'm saying.
So this is actually training meto respond to people of a
(39:43):
complete opposite opinion aboutsomething, for whatever odd
reason I deeply care about andhave a fruitful dialogue right
when there's an agreement todisagree or I try to find a
point of agreement.
And even if they're coming forme because they don't know it's
me, but they're coming for me, Irecognize it's not personal
(40:05):
because they don't know who I amRight and I'm intentionally
trying to flip it so that theynow feel bad for disagreeing
with me.
No, they will still disagree,but we've gotten to a place
where, if we were actually inthe same room, we wouldn't be
fighting about it.
Because sometimes it will startoff as a little bit of fight.
(40:27):
So that's my personal challengeto myself when I ever see
someone that disagrees.
So I would just encourage theviewers to kind of take this
tactic.
It's a very safe way topractice this art of conflict
resolution on social in a veryweird way.
But I like to do everything,you know, I like everything that
(40:51):
I do to kind of teach mesomething, especially if I'm
spending hours on it for someridiculous reason, and so this
is one of my methods.
So to speak and, like you said,it's easier to do on Reddit,
it's harder to do on Instagramor a little bit on threads too.
But I want everyone to juststop and think.
(41:16):
Leverage our five virtues, sojust want to save them for
everybody.
You know Sophia, which is youknow understanding why something
matters.
P is for nieces, which is usegood judgment.
E is episteme, which is knowthe facts.
Brittany S. Hale (41:35):
Know.
The facts Come with thereceipts people.
Karen McFarlane (41:39):
Yes, and it's for noose, which is trust your
intuition and technique, whichis make it real.
So, at the very least, we wantpeople to use good judgment, we
want people to know the factsand we also want people to
understand why all of thismatters and then leverage
context in trying to understandwhy all this matters and then
(42:00):
when you actually comment whichis making it real be thoughtful
in those responses.
What's the last one?
Brittany S. Hale (42:12):
I'm upvoting you for the.
Karen McFarlane (42:19):
Sounds great to me, so we'll leave it there.
Then We'll leave it there.
So if you commented onTabitha's post, go back and
check your comments and makesure the spent framework applies
.
That's your action item.
Yep, alright, brittany, it'salways fun talking to you you
(42:40):
too, see ya, bye bye, mina Mina.
Hi, brittany Hi .
Brittany S. Hale (00:08):
Karen.
Karen McFarlane (00:11):
We are back for another episode of the E-Word.
It's exciting.
Brittany S. Hale (00:17):
It is exciting .
Karen McFarlane (00:18):
How are you?
I'm good.
I've been super busy the pastcouple of weeks just getting all
of my to-dos in order.
You know, when you start makinga list of all the things you
have to do and you start to lookat it, it becomes very
overwhelming.
But I think I have a processnow for focusing a little bit
better than I have in the past,so it feels good to tick things
(00:41):
off.
Brittany S. Hale (00:43):
Do you want to share a little bit about what
that process is, or is that tobe continued?
Karen McFarlane (00:48):
It's still to be continued, but, you know,
over the years I have alwaystried to find a particular
system that didn't annoy me whenthings popped up in front of me
in terms of what I had to doBecause I ultimately am not the
best list maker Like somethingthat I put on the list is really
a multi-step process, right.
So, it, you know, and somethings are, oh, I can do this in
(01:10):
three minutes and so.
But I also didn't want it tolive outside of, I guess, my
calendar.
So I never truly properly usedGoogle Tasks.
It's very simple and, while youmight want some more bells and
whistles, for me the simplicityis perfect and I can see this
(01:31):
whole board in front of me.
I guess it's kind of like aTrello board or maybe a sauna
board, but those things liveoutside of my calendar and you
kind of look at all of thosethings and I have them in
different categories and it'ssorted by the date.
So I could say, hey, today I'msupposed to work on these three,
four things, and then I canmove the dates around fairly
easily because I'm mostlyaccountable to myself and I
(01:55):
don't have to feel so bad aboutit, because you feel bad when
you keep seeing things thatyou're missing.
It will say past, but I can belike, okay, that could just go
for next week.
So this is working for me forthe past couple of weeks, okay,
and we'll see if it keepsworking, just updated.
I will.
I will, but we're going to talkabout something.
Brittany S. Hale (02:24):
It sounds like your task list was kind of a
plot twist to how you werenormally functioning right.
You had to switch something.
It wasn't working.
You had to pivot Right, andthere's a certain wisdom in that
right.
So when we're talking abouteudaimonia, when we're talking
(02:47):
about the seven virtues, ifyou're unfamiliar with that, go
back what two, three episodesand we're breaking that down.
But I think embracing the pivotis really one of the most, if
not the most, valuable skillright now.
Karen McFarlane (03:09):
I totally agree .
I mean, with what's going on inthe political environment, in
the economy, particularly withcertain demographics.
Pivoting is the top skill thatyou have to embrace, and I think
it's about recognizing whereyou are, what the environment is
(03:33):
, and then trying to figure outyour place in the world and how
you might have to shift in orderto recalibrate and take your
place in a new way in this world.
Brittany S. Hale (03:44):
And that's okay, it's experimentation, it's
totally fine, and I thinkthere's some other people who
are okay with it.
So I am in the midst of a pivotMore to share soon, which I'm
really excited about, okay.
And so I was just scrollingthrough my timeline and I saw
(04:07):
Tabitha Brown.
Are you familiar?
Karen McFarlane (04:10):
Yeah, I know a little bit about her, but we
should share more about her forthe audience.
Brittany S. Hale (04:15):
For those who are unfamiliar, tabitha Brown is
an actress and influencer andinspiration to many.
I believe she still has achildren's show on Netflix.
She kept many of us companyduring the pandemic with words
of inspiration and recently hada licensing deal with Target
(04:40):
where she licensed her image fora number of vegan products food
products, I think she had maybelike a hair care line, some
houseware items as well.
She is a vegan and I thinkthat's part of what drew people
(05:02):
to her is that she's makingvegan cooking and the vegan
lifestyle a little bit moreaccessible and flavorful to
people who were unfamiliar withit.
Am I missing anything?
Karen McFarlane (05:17):
I think you got everything Actress, author,
cook, influencer, business ownercreator.
The ultimate portfolio careerexample.
Brittany S. Hale (05:34):
And such a ray of sunshine, at least from my
perspective.
I've come across her posts, andso her post on I want to say
(06:00):
maybe it was last Tuesday, thesecond she posted a video and
she just quote entrepreneurship.
It's not for everybody, thatdoesn't mean it's not for you,
but right now, these last fewmonths, few years, she says,
baby, if it ain't been workingfor you and you're doing a lot
of robbing Peter to pay Paul,it's time for you to get a job.
(06:20):
Initial thoughts andimpressions.
Karen McFarlane (06:26):
Well, given her background and just the context
of her total brand andpersonality.
I am personally not offended bythat opinion.
And let's be clear, it's heropinion, right, and it's her
opinion based on the collectionof her experiences.
(06:48):
So oftentimes we look tosuccessful people and we want to
know how they got it done.
You know what was their mindset, what were the specific steps
they took.
We look to them for advice andcounsel.
She's offering free advice andcounsel again from her
perspective on her social mediachannel.
(07:09):
But what was a littleconcerning is the minute people
don't like what that is.
Then they add some other layersto it that may or may not have
been there.
Brittany S. Hale (07:23):
Exactly, and I should note that Tamitha is
also.
She's also very open about herfaith, and so in the video she
says you can have a dream, youcan have a goal, you can have a
vision that God has given youand you can still have a job
while pursuing it.
Talking to people who burnt alltheir bridges up?
You burnt your bridges becauseyou refused to get a little side
hustle or job, to have incomecoming in while pursuing your
(07:45):
passion.
I'm not talking to people whoare trying to get jobs.
I'm not talking about thepeople who do have a little job.
I'm Victor Stillheart.
I'm not talking about you, andthis was an Assemblant video
that she needed to post toclarify because there was such
outrage and such a strongresponse.
I was actually really surprisedby how strong the response was
(08:12):
to what she said, because Ithought what she said was
emblematic of the conversationsthat I've been having seeing had
among so many entrepreneurs.
You know, I think it's justpart of the journey, right?
(08:32):
Entrepreneurs have that journeywhere there's ups and downs and
sometimes you know those pivotsare important to sustain
yourself.
I don't think anybody's askingfor you to start in the messy
minute, right?
No, it's just one pathway,right?
Karen McFarlane (08:52):
So many of the previous models of
entrepreneurship really lookedlike a very straight line to
success.
You work hard, you dig deep,you focus, you ignore everything
else around you and successwill come to you.
And that really happens for afew people, right.
(09:16):
But, like you said, the messymiddle people really don't talk
about the messy middle becauseit is messy, it's not clean and
clear.
Talk about the messy middlebecause it is messy, it's not
clean and clear.
But that's the part that peoplereally need to understand is
it's not this straight shot tothe top.
Many times you have to, as wetalked about in the beginning,
pivot and pivot a few times, notjust one time.
(09:38):
It might be three, four, five,10 times, until you get to the
place where you need to be.
And when I hear her say that, Ifeel like she's specifically
talking to the people where itmay just not be working in the
way that you envisioned it rightnow and you're struggling and
(10:03):
you have a choice, that'schoices to continue the struggle
and suffer, to have thatamazing story where you rise to
the top right, which could bepossible, or you pivot to create
some stability for yourself sothat you can now refocus and do
(10:23):
what you have always dreamt todo.
That's what I hear from whatshe says.
Brittany S. Hale (10:30):
I think that makes a lot of sense.
And you know I mean duringmarketing.
You know I understand the valueof having the straight shot
story.
It's easy to digest, it's quick, it's punchy and it's
(10:52):
aspirational and for many peopleit's inaccessible.
Yeah, so we know that for manyentrepreneurs, especially
entrepreneurs who are women,that that messy middle is
(11:13):
complicated by familialobligations, whether it's
children, parents, significantothers.
There's tons of things that cantug at your attention and
there's rarely the expectationthat you silo yourself and dig
in and focus and wear the sameT-shirt three months in a row
(11:38):
and eat ramen, you know, for ayear there are women who are
doing it, but that's rarely theexpectation for some of the
unicorns or the women that wesee.
Right, the expectation is thatyou are friendly, that you're
(12:00):
affable, that you're likable,that you're doing great work and
you look great doing it, andthat just seems kind of
disjointed.
Right, it doesn't seem alignedwith the more marketable story,
but you were the marketingexpert, so I defer to you there.
Karen McFarlane (12:20):
I mean, no, that's true, we always want to
have a great story to tell andas an entrepreneur, you're
supposed to build that storyright.
People buy into you as a person, rather than to the brand, more
readily the brand you're tryingto build, and sometimes that's
synonymous with the brand, andas you get bigger, than those
things separate.
And so I think that story iscritical.
(12:41):
But the other piece too, whichis, I think, part of the story,
is access to capital, and womenhave less access.
Black women have lesser accessto capital.
I could just kind of think of,in my past, for example, my
friend and I.
We always wanted to beentrepreneurs and we were really
(13:03):
fond of experimentation.
At one point I had my job atHBO, but I was still doing my
entrepreneur ventures on theside and at some point I stopped
working.
I actually left HBO and went toanother company, but I left
that company to go full throttleon the music business.
(13:24):
We were in music at the timeand we started our own
independent record label and weput out an artist and she was
doing really, really well.
However, we ran out of moneyand so that actually stopped
that business, that independentrecord label, which, by the way,
(13:45):
I'm pretty sure we were thefirst female Black-owned
independent record label If notthe first, then maybe the second
.
But we were pioneers in thatspace.
But because we lost access tocapital, that was the end of
that story.
Brittany S. Hale (14:03):
And so that's really critical.
I'm not the most worried, bythe way.
I just want to make clear toour listeners that I too am
learning this for the first timeand endlessly impressed once
again.
So more on that later.
Karen McFarlane (14:16):
But okay, yes, but anyway, I'm just telling
that story to say that there'sso much further that she and I
could have gone if A we hadaccess to capital.
B particularly in the musicindustry, people really didn't
take us seriously as womenbecause of who we were, and even
(14:37):
while we were doing it, we puta man in front of us who worked
for us, but we put him as, like,the main face in order to get
access to certain rooms andsituations to help us, you know,
get to where we wanted to go.
But ultimately it came down tothe money.
So you can have a great story,but it has to be backed by that
(15:00):
access and that capital, andthat's something that you know
we all, well, many of us lack inthe same way that they don't
have access to, in the same waythat other groups may have
access to it.
Brittany S. Hale (15:16):
Right, right, right, right.
(15:37):
And to put some numbers behindit.
On average, we know that womentend to receive less than 1% of
any sort of venture capital.
Black women especially get lessthan half a percent and it's
closer to a quarter of 1% thananything.
And that is troubling for a lotof reasons.
Right, because you are nowhaving to bootstrap every last
bit of your business, everypayroll, every new program.
Right, it gets expensive.
(15:58):
And so you know, I know thatfrom my experience, you know
that from your experience.
So, in seeing Tabitha speakabout this, I didn't at by this
in any particular way, but forme it was more so if we scope
(16:29):
out, even sharing her opinion,where we see a lot of headlines
about 300,000 Black women,within the past six months, I
believe, or you know, havinglost their jobs.
And this being, what does thismean for the American economy?
(16:51):
What does it mean, not only forthese women in this group but
the country, these women in thisgroup, but the country?
A lot of people seem to takewhat she said as insensitive in
light of that happening, and Isee them as two different
(17:12):
conversations.
But I again, I don't know Withthat backing does it?
Do you receive her messagingany differently?
I?
Karen McFarlane (17:19):
don't know.
With that backing, do youreceive her messaging any
differently?
No, because I think one thingthat we as users of these
platforms, as people who engagewith these different
personalities, have tounderstand or remember is, yes,
(17:41):
context in the moment matters,but we also have to layer in
full context of the person'sbrand, personality and
experiences, and so no one wantsto be judged for one moment
right Without that full context,and I feel like that's what
(18:05):
happens way too often whenpeople speak out about something
.
Social media is, in many ways,an informal opportunity to
connect with your audiences.
It would be much different forme if she did a written piece in
(18:28):
Forbes or wherever, becausethere's an opportunity to you
know, research different aspectsof that and formulate an
opinion about you know the topicin a more in-depth and
meaningful way.
This is a clip, essentiallyright, and it does not, to me,
(18:51):
represent her full opinion aboutanything Like you want to be
able to have a discourse withher, like if we were on a panel
or a fireside.
She would make that comment andwe'd do some back and forth
around it and then you wouldhave fuller context.
So we need to allow people thatgrace and too often everything
(19:13):
is looked at in a very siloedway and judged and blown up from
that perspective, and that'swhy it doesn't change anything
for me.
Brittany S. Hale (19:24):
Yeah, and that's really my concern is is
it too late for us to considercontext?
Is it too late for us to valuecontext?
Because, again, I, I admit Iprefer longer form social media
because it is hard to gaincontext.
(19:45):
You have to be immenselytalented to get your point
across in 90 seconds or less andeven then people are going to
want you to expound, to gofurther, to share other opinions
, found to say you know to gofurther to share other opinions.
So a longer form really doeslend itself to getting the
(20:07):
message across.
But the timeline is is harsh,right, that's so many
impressions.
Before she could, she had toput out a second video to
clarify her statement because ofand I wonder if sometimes
there's a commitment tomisunderstanding, you know, so
(20:28):
that people can get acrosswhatever it is that they want to
platform, right, so you know.
Karen McFarlane (20:34):
I agree with that.
The social discourse isn'talways honest and meant to
elicit positivity.
It is meant to stir the pot inmany ways, and also we're
intrigued by that.
We're being honest, right, welike the controversy.
(20:59):
Let's also be honest.
Would we be talking about thisif there was no controversy
today?
And so we all contribute tothat in some form or fashion and
have to be critical about whatwe're viewing, what we're seeing
(21:21):
, right?
It's just like now, when I'm onsocial and I see a video, I
have to now ask myself is thisAI?
Yeah, and it's getting harderand harder To tell the
difference, just for ourlisteners.
Brittany S. Hale (21:43):
You know the videos of the cats flipping
pancakes, or you know dogsjumping on trampolines, you know
, and they can be really great.
Right, look at this securityfootage of these bears enjoying
time on a trampoline.
It's not real, you know.
Karen McFarlane (22:02):
But then there are other things that are people
interacting in a certain wayand you're like wait a second
Right.
Is this real or did this reallyhappen?
I love the thinking.
Brittany S. Hale (22:15):
You know what do the hands look like Exactly?
What do the hands look likeExactly?
Sometimes you'll look in thebackground and people's faces
are distorted in these reallygnarly ways, and so you have to
(22:39):
again.
Karen McFarlane (22:39):
You probably spend more time trying to
discern whether or not it's AIthan you did, consuming the
content Exactly, and we can evenpull it back.
Sometimes because of what'sgoing on out there in the world,
people will post content thatactually is old, but we don't
know that it's old and we thinkit is happening today because it
adds to whatever discourse isgoing on, and so we're also not
(23:00):
used to doing the research tovet the information for
ourselves, and it's a lot ofwork to do it when you're really
on the platform to beentertained.
Brittany S. Hale (23:12):
For the most part, you want to have this
three, five, seven minute videoand then continue to scroll
without a second thought, andthat also lends itself to
increasingly binary thinking.
That concerns me.
(23:34):
So if I agree with her ordisagree with her, then turns to
I love her, I hate her andeverything else is just
confirmation bias at the sameright.
So I generally have a positiveview of Tabitha Brown.
I find her to be warm, at leastfrom what I've seen and how she
(23:58):
conducts herself, and she'savailing herself of the internet
.
Right, this is part of theinternet and I can hold space to
say, oh, I agree with thispoint.
Maybe I don't agree at thispoint.
Maybe, you know, I can holdspace for the nuance, but that
(24:20):
space is rapidly shrinking forall of us, right, because if you
don't agree with everything,you're an enemy.
Karen McFarlane (24:32):
Yeah, and that space and grace is really
important because we're alsomaking assumptions.
So we're assuming or these, thedissenters, are assuming that
she knew about she knew the jobsnumbers, like they're assuming
that she's relating it to that,they're assuming that that all
(24:52):
of this is part of her Right.
But the people who aredefending her, like me and you,
we're also assuming that shedidn't know All right, or that
it wasn't part of it.
We don't know at the end of theday.
So part of me is like okay, askher and then, once she answers,
(25:16):
then you can have an opinionabout that answer Right, and it
could still go down a rabbithole.
If she says, no, I wasn't aware, then you can be like well, how
don't you know?
Brittany S. Hale (25:30):
How did you not know this?
Yeah, these people support youand this is not what you're
doing.
You know there's no grace,because it could be I was on a
flight and I didn't pay for theWi-Fi.
I was taking a nap, I wasspending time with my children.
(25:51):
There's so many reasons andways that it could say she could
be shooting her show and in themiddle say you know what?
This is something that I'vebeen feeling, that's been on my
heart Again, maybe informed byprivate conversations that she's
had with people in her circlewho have said you know what?
I need to supplement my incomebecause what I thought would
(26:13):
support it did not In the past.
She's spoken about her journeyto being an actress and how
she's had to do things in theinterim and lean on her husband
for support.
And you know, again, she didn'ttake off.
Take off right until thepandemic, when she was at home,
(26:36):
like the rest of us at home,like the rest of us, decided to
make content about her life, herlifestyle choices, eating food,
all that type of stuff.
Karen McFarlane (26:50):
Who knew Exactly.
And so her journey, when wetalk about pivots too, is like a
very slow start and then boom,which is great.
But it took a while to get tothis point.
And now she's here and she'soffering her perspective.
We also don't know, like whydid she even decide to make that
comment Right?
(27:11):
Like what prompted her to dothat Right?
What could be a simple answer?
Of course I'm making this up,but she could have been
somewhere talking to somebodywho was struggling in this
moment.
She gave that piece of adviceand she was like oh you know,
maybe I should just share thatwith everyone because that could
(27:31):
help a few more people, Like Ihelped this person who thought
it was good advice, I mean, youknow.
So, again, nuance, grace andspace, I think, are key lessons
we have to take from anything weengage with on the internet,
(27:53):
and also to your point aboutrecognizing our own biases and
how that plays into how we viewwhat we engage with.
Brittany S. Hale (28:04):
Right, Right, Because I think even to
interpret it in a way that isharmful is to suggest that even
having to do that would be.
There's something shamefulabout it, you know, uh, which
could could lead to anotherconversation, but I just, I
(28:30):
don't know, I don't know.
And so when I, when I thinkabout the E word, when I think
about pneumonia and that lifewell lived, it's to me uh, often
being grounded and admired inconflict and helping people see
their way through right, Closingthat gap between what we want
and what we're experiencing.
(28:51):
Very often, the key to closingthat gap is embracing the change
that you're confronted with.
Yeah, and so when I see this,when I see these pivots, you
know, or these plot twists, as Ilike to call them, very often
it leads to things that youdidn't know.
(29:14):
You know who knew the Brownkept sending out, you know her
headshots and said staying awayfrom social media.
I don't know that she would behousehold name, I don't know
that she would be in people'scupboards and, you know, on
people's TV screens.
But you know, here she is, Iguess.
Karen McFarlane (29:37):
And she's using the platform and there's going
to be good and there's going tobe bad with it.
That comes with it, and I meanyou have to be ready for any of
that.
But one thing you said made mejust want to pose this question,
although I'm not sure how toreally word it, so I'll say it
and then maybe I'll have tocorrect it.
(29:57):
But when we think aboutconflict and we think about the
people making comments and wejust talked about some of the
just genuinely like dishonestcommentary why do people want to
(30:19):
have this conflict?
Brittany S. Hale (30:22):
Or specifically, why do they?
Karen McFarlane (30:22):
want to have this conflict with her?
Right, because they couldeasily watch it and keep moving,
yeah, and not environment atall Right, but they choose to
engage in this and create thislevel of conflict.
That's hard to manage, I think,because you're trying to
(30:51):
Tabitha is trying to, especiallywith her second post right
Communicate.
No, I didn't mean this, I meantthat, but she's kind of doing
it one way.
So we have access to thisperson to say all sorts of
positive and inflammatory things, and their ability to respond
is limited in the traditionalcountry.
Brittany S. Hale (31:13):
Right, absolutely.
So I'm just going to checkreally quickly because I don't
want to misquote my numbers.
Um, when it comes to, when itcomes to Threads, which is the
space where I saw this, she'sactually an Emmy Award winning
(31:35):
host.
We forgot that, but she has 1.1million followers.
She can travel the ground.
You're absolutely right.
Her ability to respond tohowever many responses there
were to that video severelylimited.
(31:57):
Okay, she just couldn't.
It's not going to happen, okay.
Okay, so there were, with thatparticular post, 649 people
(32:17):
directly responded, even then,sizable the number of people it
reached.
So people reposting it orquoting it over a hundred people
doing that.
So if you and you may say, okay,it's only a hundred, to sit
there and make a hundreddifferent videos to respond to
(32:38):
what people are saying, to make649 different videos to type out
649 different responses, it'snot happening.
Most people do not have thetime or interest in doing that.
So I think, to answer yourquestion, why do people do it?
Because in platforms, it'salways going to benefit them,
(33:02):
right, in this particular space,there's a power imbalance.
But the great thing aboutsocial media is that you have
access to people you normallywouldn't have access to.
You might have written astrongly worded letter before,
whereas now you can post a videoresponse.
You can tag Tabitha and if sheresponds to you, that vaults you
(33:26):
to a level of visibility youwould never have reached
otherwise right If she choosesto respond.
Her 1.1 million followers mayhave eyes on you.
And then the question becomesdo you have anything of value to
offer?
Response, right, that's thechallenge with virality, right?
(33:48):
You know a lot of people, Ithink, get that huge dopamine
rush saying, oh my gosh, all ofthese people are liking or
commenting, or you know whatever.
The question is what happensafter that?
What else do you have to offer?
And if it's just simply to showup to disagree with a
(34:12):
particular figure, that's notmuch, I don't think.
Karen McFarlane (34:18):
I mean, you're right, you know I oftentimes,
when I'm, you know, on Instagramor whatever, I decide if I'm
going to comment or not.
And part of my decision makingis does it really matter if I
comment or not?
Why do I feel the need tocomment positively or negatively
(34:39):
?
Because I actually am notlooking for anyone to respond to
me, to be honest, and sometimesI do comment.
Most of the times it's justabout I feel like I need to
express my feelings and move on,and sometimes my feelings
(34:59):
aren't that nice, and those areusually when I don't comment.
Usually.
I'm not saying never Cause.
I'll write something out andthen I'm like, am I doing this?
And then I delete it, so like II understand the whole what
comes next part is a veryimportant question.
You need to ask yourself, like,why are you doing this?
(35:20):
Do you need to just expressyourself yeah and it's one and
done and keep it moving, or doyou really want to engage in a
meaningful dialogue and debatedifferent points of view?
So I think also the mediummatters.
Yes, as I complained to youbefore, you introduced me to
(35:42):
Reddit and so you know,occasionally I will post my
opinion and go back and forthwith various people.
Brittany S. Hale (35:55):
Right.
Right, because you have longform responses, you're also
willing to get long formresponses and people have a
little bit more space to benuanced and thoughtful Not that
they always are, but there'smore space to discuss things you
know in depth.
(36:16):
So, quick, quick, bravo.
Housewives tangent.
It's relevant, I promise.
Karen Huger of Real Housewivesof Potomac fame was recently
released after serving almost ayear for her driving while under
(36:38):
the influence, and local newsstations were interviewing
people who showed up, one ofwhich was a woman who became
Reddit famous if that is a thingbecause she went to the public
trial and she was posting liveupdates of Karen's trial during
(37:02):
the trial, so much so that thejudge had an open warning saying
you know, whoever is postingshould stop.
You know, and so she's.
There are thousands of peoplewho now and she herself, she's
an accountant right, I'm anaccountant, I work from home.
(37:25):
My boss also loves the show andis like totally fine with me
being here.
You know, so it was.
It makes the world smaller andin some ways it can be affirming
and nice to know that the worldis smaller in that way, and
then other times, you know, notso much um, and then other times
(37:51):
, you know, not so much.
Karen McFarlane (37:52):
I mean you're right, I mean so.
I mean we're talking abouttabitha, we're talking about the
pros and cons of social media.
You know, there's a definitepro, which is, again, we also
talk about access.
It gives people access.
It gives people a voice in away that wasn't there before.
I think another episode weshould talk about is that voice
good or like?
What was the world like when wedidn't have that level of
(38:14):
access?
Was it better or was it worse?
And what are the pros and consof that?
Because the fact that anaccountant can just become
Reddit famous for, you know,posting about housewives is like
crazy, but also amazing in thesame vein, right.
So what is that Right?
Brittany S. Hale (38:37):
Before she was anonymous, she could just post.
But now people don't like theway she looks, or people want to
dig more into her life, or, youknow, they disagree with her
opinion and then they, you know,reach out to her business Like
that's the the double-edgedsword of it all.
That's true.
Karen McFarlane (38:56):
But I'll, I'll.
I'll point this part will agree, which I like.
All right, I like very much andI will upvote them.
They agree.
And then the people I disagreewith.
(39:18):
I don't like, however, and itmight take me longer to respond,
but I will always respond, I,and it might take me longer to
respond, but I will alwaysrespond.
And I'm practicing risk tryingto respect that other point of
view, because I post my houselife stuff, so I have a very
strong opinion about it and Ifeel like everybody should agree
with what I'm saying.
So this is actually training meto respond to people of a
(39:43):
complete opposite opinion aboutsomething, for whatever odd
reason I deeply care about andhave a fruitful dialogue right
when there's an agreement todisagree or I try to find a
point of agreement.
And even if they're coming forme because they don't know it's
me, but they're coming for me, Irecognize it's not personal
(40:05):
because they don't know who I amRight and I'm intentionally
trying to flip it so that theynow feel bad for disagreeing
with me.
No, they will still disagree,but we've gotten to a place
where, if we were actually inthe same room, we wouldn't be
fighting about it.
Because sometimes it will startoff as a little bit of fight.
(40:27):
So that's my personal challengeto myself when I ever see
someone that disagrees.
So I would just encourage theviewers to kind of take this
tactic.
It's a very safe way topractice this art of conflict
resolution on social in a veryweird way.
But I like to do everything,you know, I like everything that
(40:51):
I do to kind of teach mesomething, especially if I'm
spending hours on it for someridiculous reason, and so this
is one of my methods.
So to speak and, like you said,it's easier to do on Reddit,
it's harder to do on Instagramor a little bit on threads too.
But I want everyone to juststop and think.
(41:16):
Leverage our five virtues, sojust want to save them for
everybody.
You know Sophia, which is youknow understanding why something
matters.
P is for nieces, which is usegood judgment.
E is episteme, which is knowthe facts.
Brittany S. Hale (41:35):
Know.
The facts Come with thereceipts people.
Karen McFarlane (41:39):
Yes, and it's for noose, which is trust your
intuition and technique, whichis make it real.
So, at the very least, we wantpeople to use good judgment, we
want people to know the factsand we also want people to
understand why all of thismatters and then leverage
context in trying to understandwhy all this matters and then
(42:00):
when you actually comment whichis making it real be thoughtful
in those responses.
What's the last one?
Brittany S. Hale (42:12):
I'm upvoting you for the.
Karen McFarlane (42:19):
Sounds great to me, so we'll leave it there.
Then We'll leave it there.
So if you commented onTabitha's post, go back and
check your comments and makesure the spent framework applies
.
That's your action item.
Yep, alright, brittany, it'salways fun talking to you you
(42:40):
too, see ya, bye bye, mina Mina.
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