September 2, 2025 • 52 mins
It started with a kiss on the Jumbotron.
When the CEO and Chief People Officer of Astronomer showed up mid-embrace at a Coldplay concert—on screen, no less—they probably didn’t expect it to go viral. But those few seconds set off a firestorm: internal resignations, external backlash, and an urgent conversation about boundaries, bias, and what it means to lead in public.
In this episode of The E Word, Brittany and Karen break down the leadership fallout using the SPENT framework:
- Sophia (Philosophic Wisdom): Why proximity to power isn’t just a perk—it’s a responsibility.
- Phronesis (Practical Judgment): What clear boundaries (and clearer policies) could’ve changed.
- Episteme (Fact-Based Insight): What actually happened, and what people got wrong in the rush to react.
- Nous (Intuitive Understanding): Why the woman involved may have taken the bigger hit and what that says about who’s allowed to make mistakes.
- Techne (Making it Real): How Astronomer’s damage control (featuring actress Gwyneth Paltrow) rewrote the typical crisis PR playbook.
From office romances to public reckoning, some moments hit harder because they shine a light on everything we don’t want to talk about: power, gender, double standards, and the very human mess behind corporate polish.
🎧 Listen in and ask yourself: What would you have done if it were your team, your org, your face on that screen?
Stay With Us
- Watch and Subscribe to The E Word on YouTube.
- Follow Karen on LinkedIn and learn more at Colossal Work.
- Follow Brittany on LinkedIn and learn more at BND Consulting Group.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Karen McFarlane (00:02):
Hi Brittany.
Brittany S. Hale (00:06):
Give me one second.
I have to get our executiveproducer.
Karen McFarlane (00:08):
Oh, okay, I see a gorgeous picture of her in
the background too.
Brittany S. Hale (00:13):
Ah, this was a gift for my birthday.
Aw, isn't it great.
Karen McFarlane (00:18):
Aw, that is fantastic, hi, mina Thank you, I
am in flesh.
You're her emotional supporthuman.
Brittany S. Hale (00:30):
I truly am.
I truly am.
It is a distinction that I wearwith honor.
I take that seriously.
Karen McFarlane (00:38):
Well, I'm excited to be here with you
today.
We are into our third season,right?
And, as a reminder to ourlisteners, we have evolved the
E-word, right.
So if you haven't caught up onthat, make sure you listen to
our first episode of seasonthree, which talks about how we
(01:01):
have redefined the E-word.
Talks about how we haveredefined the e-word, yeah, and
so with that, we're going toapproach, you know, start our
new approach to eduomania that'swhat the e-word stands for and
talk about something that hashit the news really recently.
So you want me to kick it off,brittany, or you want to kick it
(01:23):
off, I mean?
Brittany S. Hale (01:24):
you to kick it off, brittany, or you want to
kick it off.
I mean, you can kick it offlooking at many a meme, all
sorts of things, but maps dotell well, um, oh, shoot.
Karen McFarlane (01:37):
Now I just blanked on the man's name.
So the CEO of this companycalled astronomer, which is like
a B2B data company, what washis name?
Again, I can't remember hisname.
All of a sudden it's blanked onhis name.
I want to say it's Brian, butanyway, we'll figure it out.
Long story short is right, he'sa CEO and he was Andy Byard.
(01:59):
Okay, andy Byard.
Yes, so he was hanging out witha coworker at a Coldplay
concert.
A few coworkers, a fewcoworkers, but in particular
they had a special relationshipwith another coworker where they
(02:20):
were let's say hugging Nina, Iwill demonstrate.
Oh yes, For those who are justlistening.
They were hugged up together atthis event.
Brittany S. Hale (02:37):
And unfortunately You're back to
prom, your nice little prom.
Karen McFarlane (02:43):
Prom pose.
That's true.
That's a good example and youknow he's married okay, and he's
hugged up with this woman, aco-worker, I believe.
She works at hr she is theirchief people officer okay, um,
so the ceo and the chief peopleofficer are hugged up at the
(03:04):
concert amongst other co-workers, I guess, and the camera pans
to them and they're on theJumbotron while hugged up, and
so they're caught in the act,right, and this created such a
(03:53):
stir and it you know of beingmarried.
Right, it's also being done infront of other co-workers, right
, and now it is showcased in theworld and it just offers up a
lot of questions around, I don'tknow, relationships in the
workplace, appropriate behaviorfor particularly senior leaders,
and also what that falloutmeans.
(04:18):
When you do get caught, and getcaught in such a public way,
how does that affect theorganizations that you work for
and also how they respond?
Brittany S. Hale (04:31):
So that's what we want to talk about today,
yeah, and so I guess I'm goingto ask a what may seem like a
silly question Do you think thathe should have resigned?
(04:51):
Why or why not?
Karen McFarlane (04:56):
So I think that CEOs are the face of an
organization, even if it's a B2Borganization that may not
normally be in the spotlight,and so they represent the
culture and the norms that weexpect all employees you know
(05:21):
adhere to to some degree.
Because his behavior resultedin such a negative spectacle for
the organization theredefinitely needed to be some
(05:41):
sort of consequence to that andbecause it has made the company
more of a laughingstock right,with all the memes you mentioned
and there are some hilariousones, right how do people now
take the organization seriouslyif their top leader made the
(06:02):
organization a spectacle in away that's not even aligned with
their brand and their mission?
Brittany S. Hale (06:08):
Yes, what are your thoughts on that?
I think yeah.
So I mean, I think we've madethis point about virality right,
and I'm sure, as a CMO, as amarketer, we've heard companies
say we want to go viral.
As a marketer, we've heardcompanies say we want to go
viral, but the challenge in thatseems to be one you can't
(06:29):
always control what you go viralfor, right.
And two, once you go viral,what then?
Do you have a product to pointpeople to?
Do you have some sort ofexciting news Like what do you
want people to do with theattention that they're giving
you?
And so this is to your point.
(06:52):
Again, this is not what astrong and raw one to go viral
for Do.
I think that he should haveresigned.
So I've worked with seniorleaders and many of the leaders
that I've worked with.
Senior leaders and many of theleaders that I've worked with
have been of the mind that howyou do anything is how you do
everything.
And I've actually had someleaders say that if they observe
(07:19):
other leaders cheating on theirspouse, that that is an
indicator to them not to dobusiness with that person,
because they say, if you can bedisloyal to the person that
you're ostensibly sleeping nextto every night or you've, you
(07:39):
know, you've made this solemnvow to.
How can I trust that you willthen adhere to the contract that
we have, the partnership thatwe're building, how can I trust
you generally if I see thatyou're not even loyal to your
family?
And that's something that I'vehad to think about, because when
(08:03):
I saw that, of course it wasembarrassing and they made it
worse because of their reactionto being on the kiss cam.
Right, he's ducking, she'squite literally hiding her face.
Turning around, you haveanother coworker who's kind of
awkwardly staring at the kisscam and laughing.
But when I dug in, so this was acompany owned box, right?
(08:26):
So, um, I, when I thought aboutwhether or not he should resign
, my question was okay, so howmuch of the business is personal
and vice versa?
And when you come in, like I'vecome into organizations and
I've done these types ofinvestigations when it comes to
(08:47):
any potential harassment,nepotism, you know anything that
has to do with these personalrelationships impacting the
workplace, really tangled, so tosee that the chief people
officer and the CEO are having arelationship that doesn't seem
(09:07):
like they disclose to anyone,certainly not the board, because
again, they're the, they arethe bosses, right?
So who would they report to?
They report to the board, butthen you know how much of
company money is being spent onthis box.
Are we having company eventsjust to facilitate this
(09:30):
relationship?
You know so, both of theirspouses, because she's married
as well, so that both of theirspouses can then say, oh okay,
you're just going to a workthing, you know, and not cause
suspicion.
So I do think resigning is theright choice.
I mean, he's already been, he'salready in another role, so it
(09:51):
doesn't seem like it's impactedhim too much.
And I believe, I think, as of afew days ago, the CP of the
chief people officer, she's alsoresigned, which ultimately, I
think is for the best becausehuge, huge loss.
But I think they should, Ithink they should have resigned.
(10:14):
I mean it's, it's awkward, it'sbeen.
If it hasn't already, it shouldlead to a number of
investigations into how thingsare being run at astronomer and
what matters to the strong Imean you're right and you know,
(10:34):
as I was thinking about this, Iwas thinking about this in um a
couple different ways, right.
Karen McFarlane (10:40):
so one is about people's personal relationships
and while some people may feelcertain things are inappropriate
, we don't have the full story.
We don't know if, you know,they have open marriages.
We don't know if their spousesare okay with it or not okay
(11:03):
with it.
They might not be okay with itwhen it becomes public like this
, but there's a lot of thingsthat we don't know about.
What happens with peoplepersonally, but to your point,
it gets really tangled when it'scoworkers.
And it's really tangled whenyou have the top dog, a cheap
people officer, when you havethe top dog, a chief people
(11:28):
officer, that's entangled inthese situations, because if
something does go awry, that'sthe person that's supposed to.
You know, the go-to personthat's supposed to make sure
that you know these policies orthings are appropriate in the
workplace right, and when thatperson is being inappropriate,
coupled with the CEO, that justis not a good look.
And so I agree with everythingthat you said.
(11:51):
I think sometimes I just getcaught up in the personal aspect
of it.
Just because we don't like whatyou do does not mean you can't
do your work.
Those things happen all thetime, right, and I think it's
because of the roles that thisbecomes even more complex.
(12:11):
But when we also say you canbring your whole self to work
which I don't really like thatphrase right?
What does that really mean?
What are we really saying?
Or are we saying, you know,just bring parts of yourself,
just bring the worker, theworker bee parts of yourself
like that phrase right?
What does that really mean?
What are we really saying?
Or are we saying, you know,just bring parts of yourself,
just bring the worker, theworker, bee parts of yourself
(12:32):
and leave the emotional aspectsat the door?
And then what are we saying?
I just think there's justlayers to this.
I'm not defending this at all,because it probably would have
kept going on had they notgotten caught on the jumbotron.
And, like you said, there'sprobably layers.
How are they leveraging companytime to facilitate this
relationship in an inappropriateway?
Brittany S. Hale (12:52):
So all of that has to happen.
Karen McFarlane (12:54):
But we also know that people do fall for
each other at work all the time.
When you spend eight to 10hours a day at work, that's your
pool of people for the mostpart at work, that's your pool
of people for the most part, andso the deeper relationships
form.
And how do you prevent thatwhen humans are emotional beings
?
So I think it just gets reallycomplex in many different ways
(13:18):
and we have to learn how totemper that and manage those
relationships appropriately.
That will inevitably happen.
Brittany S. Hale (13:32):
It just gets worse the higher up you go.
Are you saying that the workwife, the work husband, the work
spouse should then become thereal spouse?
Karen McFarlane (13:40):
Listen, if you're already married, you're
supposed to stay with yourperson.
Or if you're in a committedrelationship, you're supposed to
stay with your person and notventure out At least that's my
belief system unless you have anarrangement.
People have uniquerelationships.
The work wife and the workhusband is a unique relationship
because, again, you're spendingall this time with people and
(14:01):
you get along with them.
You're friends.
That phrase has come out ofsomething.
When does it cross the line?
How does it cross the line?
I don't know, if you take awaythe romantic part of any
relationship in the workplace.
(14:21):
Relationship in the workplace,right.
You just like hanging out withso-and-so and there's perks
available at your company,no-transcript.
So if there's a box seat, right, hey.
(14:43):
Uh, kyle, right, choosing thatname because I watched untamed
last night on netflix with ericbanna, which, by the way, is a
very good show.
Brittany S. Hale (14:54):
so hey kyle, we are not being sponsored by
net Netflix.
Karen McFarlane (14:59):
That show is really good, you know, the
company's got a box at the Redsgame, whatever, right, let's,
let's go to that.
And Kyle is like cool, becauseI want to hang out with me.
Right, are we facilitating thatrelationship?
It's just not romantic.
But when it becomes romantic,then all of a sudden there might
(15:21):
be a problem.
Brittany S. Hale (15:23):
Yeah, so this is interesting because then it
comes back to likability, whichis so subjective and most people
do not have rigid enoughboundaries that they can
separate the personal and theprofessional, enough boundaries
(15:48):
that they can separate thepersonal and the professional.
So it is a boom if you likesomeone and you work with them
and you get along really reallywell.
That's the ideal.
Yeah, there are also somepeople that you can work really
well with together, but they maynot be your favorite person,
exactly.
And there are other people whoare that you can work really
well with together, but they maynot be your favorite person.
Karen McFarlane (16:04):
Exactly.
Brittany S. Hale (16:06):
And there are other people who are your
favorite people, but you alsoknow that the way that your two
work styles don't align.
Karen McFarlane (16:13):
Yep.
Brittany S. Hale (16:16):
We often conflate the two.
So if you say I like Kyle, kyleand I both watch Untamed we had
an amazing time talking aboutthe show.
I want Kyle on my team becauseI like our banter that is not
going to necessarily guaranteesuccess.
(16:36):
That does not take into accountKyle's capabilities, kyle's
skills.
That does not take into accountKyle's capabilities, kyle's
skills, kyle's work style,kyle's dependability.
We like Kyle, right, right.
This also reminds me of twothings.
First, I was having aconversation with a friend.
We were talking aboutbridesmaids and she said you do
(17:01):
not choose your bridesmaidsbased on who you're closest with
.
You choose your bridesmaidsbased on who's more likely to
get work done.
And it's very similar here,right?
So I've been part of weddingsand you know it's a stress test
(17:22):
for the friendship.
Sometimes people come outcloser, sometimes people you
know those friendships fractureand they never really repair
because people didn't work welltogether.
People were unreliable.
You know all of these types ofthings.
And then last week I wasactually working with a group of
attorneys and one of theattorneys.
(17:51):
We were talking about developinga performance framework and how
these attorneys can go forwardand fairly assess how people are
performing on their team fairlyassess how people are
performing on their team,because there has to be some
(18:13):
sort of objective standard thatyou can use to apply to kind of
the key behaviors that you'relooking for for a team.
And so we're going through someof these behaviors within the
framework.
And an attorney said but youknow, I still need to know more
about a person in order to beable to work with them.
I want to know more about them.
And he said, okay, so what doesthat mean?
(18:35):
He said, oh well, I need toknow.
You know, if they have kids,because you know they're going
through a rough time or theirchildren are sick, then you know
, maybe I can give them a littlebit more grace.
And then I said, okay, but thenif they don't have children,
then that leads to well, whydon't you have children?
Which could lead it to stickyterritory because if it's a
(18:59):
medical issue, right, you'resoliciting them to share private
information or you're making avalue judgment If they say, oh,
my gosh, I don't want to havekids, you know.
Or if they say you know, oh, Ihave a dog, or my dog has
special needs, or my dog hasspecial needs, and so the grace
(19:23):
that you might have afforded aparent of a sick child, should
you afford that to the parent ofa special needs pet?
So then you're adding in all ofthese factors, right?
That complicate therelationship.
(19:43):
Additionally, some people valueprivacy, right?
I don't necessarily owe myco-workers a deep dive into my
life outside of work.
Some people agree with that,some people disagree with that.
Karen McFarlane (19:59):
I agree with them.
You don't owe it, but I thinkfor some people it's natural to
deliver that.
You know to offer that up,because it's about building that
connection beyond the work andoftentimes when you have a
deeper connection while doingthe work, you can become more
(20:21):
productive.
So I totally agree that youshouldn't choose Kyle just
because you like him, becauseyou can like a lot of people.
You should choose Kyle becauseyou can work effectively with
him and the bonus is that youlike Kyle right, because that
(20:42):
could create a deeper, better,more productive working
relationship when you're notannoyed with the person that you
have to work with and then whenyou develop that deeper
relationship and you get to knowpeople more personally, that
allows you more room to supportin many different ways.
(21:06):
I think it has to do more withthe mindset and how you're going
to use that information.
So if that person who wants toknow more is looking beyond the
black and white concepts rightand deeper into the person's
spirit and what drives andmotivates them, I think that's a
(21:29):
positive.
Again, it gets a little trickyin how that is applied and
that's why relationships ingeneral are so complex, because
it's not even just about theindividual person.
It's about the individualperson and how they interact
(21:50):
with all the other differentpeople individually and within
groups, and those dynamics canshift and change and you need a
high level of emotionalintelligence in order to manage
all of that complexity.
Brittany S. Hale (22:26):
I think you brought up a very critical part,
which is you need a high levelof emotional intelligence there,
and we're still working on that.
When it comes to accuratelyassessing leadership potential.
Karen McFarlane (22:34):
Absolutely, and I think I have a high level of
emotional intelligence, but Ialways kick in Right A hundred
percent and I ask myselfquestions of emotional
intelligence, right, but it canalways kick in right 100% of the
time and I ask myself questionsaround how I'm perceiving or
how I'm reacting to something.
So I have particular triggersfor myself.
(22:59):
Disrespect is a huge triggerfor me.
I have a hard time moving pastthat and I take that very
personally, right, and so that'ssomething I have to be aware of
because it may skew my reaction.
Um, I also like to reflect onthe individual person and their
(23:29):
particular style of work and ofcommunication, because that may
differ from my style, it maydiffer from the next person, but
if I look at things with just asingular lens, I'm going to
miss some very important cuesthat are going to enable this
person to not only be productivebut also feel good about their
(23:50):
productivity, because I thinkthere's the work and that's how
you feel about the work, and sowe all have to take a step back
and understand the lens throughwhich we are viewing the world
and, again, those triggers andalso the things that motivate me
but also do that individuallyfor people, and then reflect on
(24:12):
am I reacting to this particularsituation based on my
perception?
Do I need to add in some otherlayers, like background is
important to some degree.
The question of home isimportant.
Did this person not get it done?
Because there are things goingon in their life right now and I
(24:37):
should be sensitive to that andhelp them solve for it, which
requires a personal point ofview right To understand that.
Otherwise, I'm going to thinkthat they're just not doing the
work, when there's maybe a verygood reason they can't do it.
They don't understand it, theyneed some more guidance, they
need a buddy, they like to workon their own.
(24:58):
Whatever the different thingsare Okay, so you have to be
willing to do that workindividually to get that person
to the next point of success.
Brittany S. Hale (25:10):
Absolutely, and I think there are different
levels of accountability basedon whether or not you're an
individual contributor, yes,whether you're a team leader,
whether you're a team leader,whether you are, you know, if
you are in a silo and I thinkthis is also going back to the
(25:32):
challenges versus the benefitsof remote work is asking how we
can foster collaboration, askinghow we can foster collaboration
, trust and connection within avirtual box.
We know it's possible, right,our friendship started via Zoom,
(25:53):
right, but there's alsosomething to be said for being
able to connect with someone inperson.
Yes, experience them and all ofthe intangibles, right, the the
intuitive markers that we getanytime we encounter another
(26:18):
human being.
But, um, I think this again isan invitation to assess what's
important to you.
If affiliation is important toyou, if you need to be part of a
team, what is it about thatteam that you enjoy?
Do you enjoy being the personeveryone can rely on?
(26:42):
Are you motivating people?
Are you, you know?
Do you like a sense of powerand control?
And all of those things factorinto these relationships.
If I had to look at this CEOand CPO, I would definitely say
(27:02):
well, first, my question wouldbe did they know each other
before she assumed the role,because I believe, at least from
what's publicly available, itlooks like she assumed the role
in November, so she hasn't evenbeen there a year, right?
So this is either a whirlwindLove at first sight.
Love at first sight Right, it'sa whirlwind romance or it is
(27:27):
something that is.
Maybe there was a priorconnection, right, right that
they were able to build on inthis space able to build on in
(27:56):
this space.
And I wanted to also give somespace to Andy Byron's soon-to-be
ex-wife.
Have you seen her statement?
Karen McFarlane (28:01):
No, I did not see her statement.
What is it?
Brittany S. Hale (28:05):
Okay, so I'm going to read this out to you,
partly because she released astatement on my birthday.
It was the gift that kept ongiving.
But I'm going to go paragraphby paragraph and I would love
your in real time reaction.
So says wife of Andrew Byrondash, for now, love it.
(28:28):
It has come to my attention,and apparently to the attention
of half the internet, that myhusband, andrew Byron, has made
certain dot dot dot choices,public ones, under stadium
lights, during a Coldplayconcert and venue, not typically
associated with infidelity.
(28:49):
But here we are.
Karen McFarlane (28:56):
Okay, next, what's her name again?
What's her name again?
Megan, megan.
Brittany S. Hale (29:06):
Okay, megan Megan.
Next, what's her name again?
What's her name again?
Megan megan.
Okay, megan.
So, um, I should also note thatshe'd removed her husband's
surname from her facebookprofile before she deleted her
facebook profile in the daysfollowing the concert, so this
is attributed to her.
We don't know for sure, butassuming it is, we're going to
(29:29):
continue.
Let me be perfectly clear.
I am not issuing this statementin defense, nor in heartbreak.
I am issuing it in power, inprecision, in silk gloves and
sharpened wit.
Karen McFarlane (29:45):
Oh, oh, megan.
Okay, I don't know you, but Ilike you already.
Brittany S. Hale (29:54):
For sure.
Karen McFarlane (29:57):
Put on my boxing gloves, because I'm
getting ready to go.
Brittany S. Hale (30:00):
Exactly because I'm getting ready to go,
I will not be engaging inperformative forgiveness, nor am
I interested in the optics ofgrace racism.
What Andy has done is not justhumiliating, it is banal common.
A man of ambition brought downby his own astonishing lack of
(30:23):
imagination.
Karen McFarlane (30:27):
That's a diss to the what's her name again.
Brittany S. Hale (30:31):
To the astronomer CPO yes.
Karen McFarlane (30:34):
Call her CPO.
That's a straight diss to theCPO.
Kristen Cabot, kristen Okay,let me write down.
Kristen Megan and Andy GotchaOkay, let me write down.
Brittany S. Hale (30:44):
Kristen Megan and Andy Gotcha.
Okay, I have retained counsel,I have reviewed holdings, I have
reallocated what was once oursinto what is now very cleanly
mine Strike.
I am not spiraling, I amascending.
And while Andy may have quotedColdplay in his statement, I
(31:07):
will simply say when the lightswent out, I saw everything
clearly.
To those who expect tears, Idon't cry for clowns.
I schedule, I document, Irebuild.
Don't cry for clowns.
This is not revenge, it isrefinement, and he will feel it
(31:29):
in the silence that follows.
Karen McFarlane (31:35):
I wonder if Megan's a cancer, feels very
cancer-y Okay.
Brittany S. Hale (31:42):
It feels very cancer-y.
Okay, it feels very muchaligned with our astrological
signs.
If you're in the proverbialshell, cancers, their sign is
the crab.
If you're in the shell fiercelydefending, she could be a
(32:03):
scorpio too.
Karen McFarlane (32:05):
Yeah, because it feels very like you know.
Yeah, she could be.
Or taurus yeah, we need to lookup her birth to confirm, yeah
you need to do this please letus, if you see this, please let
us know.
I respect this statement, right, she's simply moving on.
(32:28):
It sounds as if, obviously, wedon't know her, but it sounds as
if she's not shocked by thisbehavior.
This just may be the last straw, or she doesn't allow for any
straws Once in a while you'reout, there's no straws.
Brittany S. Hale (32:45):
No straws available.
Karen McFarlane (32:46):
So either no straws or this is the last straw
, but whatever it is, we're outof straws at this point in time
and she knows what her optionsare and she's moving forward.
I would like to build anarrative around this that is
completely just.
My own in this story is thatshe was waiting for this moment
to happen.
She knew it would inevitablyhappen and she's already got her
(33:09):
ducks in a row and she's aboutto just collect her checks and
she was like, oh you're busted,I get my moment.
Do, do, do, do, do, activate,activate.
Um, I would like that in herstory.
Brittany S. Hale (33:25):
I don't know if it is, but what was it maya
andrew who said when people showyou who they are?
Yes, so I just believe that atsome point in time she became
aware of its behaviors, becauseI am persuaded by the idea of
how you do anything is how youdo everything.
(33:48):
So if this is someone who veryclearly needed to be in the
limelight, figuratively andliterally, then Possibly, who
knows, we'll never really know.
You know we will not, but thisis.
(34:09):
This is not uncommon, Right?
You see very public co-workerscome together, right?
Good Morning Americacorrespondents.
Right, they were both married,had a longstanding affair, came
(34:30):
together and now, ironically,their exes are in a relationship
.
Karen McFarlane (34:36):
I think that's what makes this so complex.
Right, it's generally accepted,it's just how you do it.
And who knows what washappening before this Coldplay
concert, if they were justhaving an affair, or if they
fell in love or going to getmarried, if they had plans to do
this in an appropriate way?
(34:56):
We, we may never know the trutharound that.
It's just that you know theyhappen to get caught right, and
Megan may intentionally getcaught in this way.
I think there's many differentways they could do it, but maybe
who knows, you know, we don'tknow.
(35:20):
But also with Megan, you knowshe could have had everything on
speed dial.
But I also think that whensomething like this happens so
publicly and shames you, itactivates a different part of
your brain, right, like, whoknows, maybe she would have been
able to forgive, forgiven it, Idon't know, but when this
(35:40):
happens in this way.
But I think the the, thequestion for everybody which
speaks to the everythingstatement is what are your
values?
What are your personal values?
How do those personal valuesmatch to the company values?
And I know for me, if I wasprivy to that behavior, it would
(36:09):
upset me, it would change how Ithought about the people,
particularly in those roles andthe organizations, and that also
says to me that you condonethis type of behavior, which
means you condone it throughoutthe organization.
And this is probably not aplace for me, because we know
cultures differ everywhere.
(36:30):
I'm not going to fit intocertain cultures and that's fine
.
And so this is indicative inthis public display because
you're at a concert, in acompany box with coworkers of
how you feel about relationships.
Brittany S. Hale (36:53):
Truly, and I mean Kristen, especially as a
people operations professionalRight.
So a little bit of backgroundon her.
She is married to Andrew Cabot.
Do you know who Andrew Cabot is, andrew Cabot?
Andrew Cabot is CEO ofPrivateer Room.
(37:14):
So he was actually on anoverseas trip in Japan, oh, when
everything broke out.
Oh, and so he was in Asia, theysaid, for a few weeks.
He returned on that Saturday,so he was gone while everything
went down.
And so Kristen and Andrew gotmarried in 2022, after her
(37:37):
previous divorce was finalized,and you know, of course, that
sent me wondering okay, was sheat another concert with Andrew?
I've been there, and so a fewmonths ago, they purchased a
$2.2 million mansion in Rye, newHampshire, and a source says
(38:01):
that his family is now sayingthat they've been having
marriage trouble for severalmonths and that they were
discussing separating.
And the source says they thinkit's interesting because, as of
a month ago, they were sayinghow in love they are.
So this could be Andrew Stanleyhoping to save face.
But Andrew is the descendant ofthe Cabot family and they're
(38:23):
part of America's elite class,also known as the Boston
Brahmins, and you know it'sessentially a descriptor for
Boston's elite families in NewEngland.
Karen McFarlane (38:35):
So she married very, very well when she married
Andrew and so you know, as youtalked about this, this um,
andrew, and so you know, as youtalked about this, this um,
there's another layer to this,you know.
So, andy, he's in his new role,he'll be fine.
Yes, men, cheating generally isaccepted.
(38:57):
Women doing it.
It's a different.
Almost expected, almostexpected, right.
Women doing it.
It's a different thing.
Almost expected, almostexpected, right.
Women doing it has a differentconnotation and different
consequences to it.
So, again, given her role as achief people officer question
will she be able to get a rolelike that again?
No-transcript layers to that,but because she's an adulterer
(39:25):
on face value right now, thatcreates some complexity for her
should her husband want to get adivorce.
And so I really hope for hersake, although I don't know her
right, because I don't know her,I don't hate any of these
people, right, like whatever.
I hope that Andy and her wereactually in love and Andy takes
(39:51):
care of, helps her, like getback on her feet and takes care
of her, because I really do feellike it's going to be a
challenge for her to get thatparticular role again.
Particular role again she'sgoing to have to do a career
pivot, whereas Andy is alreadysettled.
So the risks are higher fordifferent people.
(40:16):
Maybe it wouldn't be so greatif it wasn't that particular
role.
I don't know, but it's alreadya challenge.
Or maybe she'll be okay, maybeshe'll have a nice settlement
and divorce and keep it moving.
But as people think about youknow not only their values, they
have to.
And I'm wondering and for thelisteners, the ex-wife- of the
(40:49):
Colby thing.
Brittany S. Hale (40:51):
Right, right, exactly which I had forgotten,
right.
Karen McFarlane (40:57):
I had forgotten that for a second, because I'm
like, why, gwyneth?
I'm curious what you thoughtabout the video which, for
listeners who haven't seen itAstronomer hired Gwyneth Paltrow
the actress Gwyneth Paltrow tobe their temporary spokesperson
in light of this wholecontroversy, and she did like a
(41:19):
quick I think it's like a minutevideo sort of on it, sort of
I'm wondering what your thoughtswere about it.
Brittany S. Hale (41:31):
So I I thought it was really, I thought it was
a stroke of genius, especiallyfor people who are chronically
online, to be able to take theattention right, because before
this I know I wasn't speakingabout astronomer, I don't think
(41:54):
you were speaking aboutastronomer and so to be able to
capitalize on this to also kindof bring pop culture along right
, because we all know, when itcomes to chris and gwyneth,
we've had this.
They had a very famousrelationship, their children are
famous, and so for her to weighin on this and you have this
(42:19):
kind of breaking the fourth wallmoment.
But they were able to redirectthe attention because Andy has
kind of fallen to the wayside.
Kristen, I'm so glad youbrought up the difference in how
women who are involved inpublic affairs have been treated
and continue to be treated, atleast in the United States.
(42:43):
All of that blowback, but nowastronomers.
Astronomers have been able tosay, ok, this is an opportunity,
right?
No bad press.
So while you're talking about astrong American, let's get
someone that we all know anA-list celebrity.
Immediately I'm thinking, oh,how much do they have to pay her
(43:03):
to do?
Karen McFarlane (43:03):
that.
Brittany S. Hale (43:05):
I've seen their budget for this but
they're able to have her explainwho the company is, what
they're used for, what theirunique value prop is, and I
think that was really cool.
I don't know that it is goingto move the needle in terms of
acquiring a new business, and sothat's where my concern lies,
(43:31):
but from a I would guess saymaybe a PR perspective, I think
it was stroke of genius.
Ultimately, when it comes timeto at the end of the fiscal year
, to have that discussion Right.
What do you?
Karen McFarlane (43:47):
think, yeah, you know, first of all, you know
I think this is why marketingcorporate communications is so
important.
Sometimes organizations don'tput enough emphasis or budget
towards it, and so this is anexample, you know, even
especially in B, even in B2Bcompanies, right Um, why those
(44:11):
roles are clearly necessary.
So I agree with you.
I feel like it was reallyclever as a way to attempt to
change the narrative and leaninto some of the social media
you know, savviness that B2Bcompanies don't really often get
(44:33):
to play into, and so I thoughtthat was quite clever and I
don't think there's anythingwrong with it, Like I think it
was a positive, interesting spin, kind of meet the moment where
you're at.
You know, I saw some commentsonline and like why wouldn't
they have you know, like, say,their board chair or somebody
come in?
I don't think that it wouldhave had the same social media
(44:56):
play had it been you knowsomeone within the company,
although for, from a differentperspective, for future buyers,
I think that is more importantHaving you know someone from
within the company make somesort of statement, or you know.
(45:21):
However, they wanted to spinthat because I don't know that I
don't believe that anyone'sgoing to buy their services
because Gwyneth Paltrow said soright.
So there's still a lot of workto do to regain that type of
(45:42):
trust, Because even for peoplewho are looking for those types
of services, if you Google thatthat will always come up.
It will always be some level ofscandal.
So how you handle thatafterwards is really critical,
and that's why I think that hehad to resign, because it
couldn't be a company thatallowed that type of behavior
and could build trust withfuture companies, because that
(46:05):
was broken with the public.
But they still have to continuebuilding it, and I think the
first step was definitely theresignation.
The second step was definitelyhow do we change the narrative?
And the third step is going tobe much more quieter in terms of
it's going to be within totheir audience base, to their
(46:27):
prime audience base.
They can't spend too much timeon social media with this stuff
and zhuzh it up even more.
It's not going to be good fortheir marketing.
It was clever, it was cute, itplayed into the moment.
It probably cost him a lot ofmoney and hopefully it works.
Brittany S. Hale (46:47):
Yeah hopefully , because, with his resignation,
wondering if there's some sortof agreement and they agreed on
to say, hey, you know, we'llgive you a golden parachute.
Goodbye.
You have to exit two ceos.
You have to hire an executivesearch firm.
Karen McFarlane (47:09):
I know that the coo is stepping up as an
interim but there's going to bean executive search now for two
roles and that's expensive yeah,yeah, and all the conversations
they're going to have to haveinternally, like you said, the
investigations, you know, um,maybe updating of their values
(47:32):
and policies and and procedures.
It it actually has caused a lotmore work and distraction, uh,
but it has to be done becauseyou got to shore up your
foundation and make sure peopleare still aligned with the
mission and vision of theorganization.
(47:53):
So they'll get past it right,Because they got rid of the
problem.
You know so it totally will.
But you know so it totally will.
But you know organizations haveto be careful about how they
deal with these types ofsituations, but also practical,
(48:14):
about what happens in theworkplace.
Now, this might be a case forremote work.
Brittany S. Hale (48:24):
Yes, yes, I think that's as good a case as
any.
Right If we're not in groupsessions, you know there's no
stroll around the office office.
You know, make sure that our,our engagements are purposeful
(48:47):
and on target.
Karen McFarlane (48:54):
Yes, exactly so we'll see what happens going
forward.
If they're still in the news, Ithink they don't want to be not
in that way, but we'll see.
Brittany S. Hale (48:58):
No, no, no, We'll keep an eye on it.
We'll keep an eye on it, but no, no, no, we'll keep an eye on
it.
Karen McFarlane (49:12):
We'll keep an eye on it, but very interesting.
Brittany S. Hale (49:15):
It's a very interesting situation Moral of
the story is don't get caught.
If you're going to do dirt,don't get caught.
Continue to lurk in the dark ifthat's what you were going to
do.
Karen McFarlane (49:27):
There's a kid here somewhere.
I'm going to be a littlegendered and be like.
That's the moral of the storyfor men and women.
Don't do it, Okay, Because theconsequences are completely
different.
Brittany S. Hale (49:46):
The consequences are completely
different.
I have not seen anywhere.
Ask Monica Lewinsky, ask any ofthese women who were in very,
very public situations and paidthe cost To this day.
(50:06):
Monica Lewinsky, I mean, I'msure she's done great work.
We don't know about that.
Karen McFarlane (50:12):
We only know her for one thing, which is
really At this point it's beendecades of ridicule and laughter
.
Yeah, the consequences arevastly different.
So we have to be careful andyou know, I would just say that
everyone needs to think aboutthat.
You could be caught up in asituation and both parties in
the relationship need to reallythink about how this affects one
(50:35):
another and be willing to paythe cost if should that happen.
So good luck to megan and andy,yes, and kristin.
Everybody it's good luck, um,you know, I don't want to vilify
(50:56):
them in a way because again,that was that's their business,
um, but we'll see what happens,or maybe we won't.
Brittany S. Hale (51:06):
We're still thinking that your true love has
not already happened.
Karen McFarlane (51:11):
Exactly, exactly.
Hey, mina, how do we do?
Brittany S. Hale (51:19):
She's pretty good.
I think she did a good job.
Karen McFarlane (51:22):
I'm proud of us All right.
Well, we got to get feedback,and we love feedback from the
listeners too on our newapproach, so give it to us, let
us know what you think.
All right, brittany, until nexttime.
Bye.
Hi Brittany.
Brittany S. Hale (00:06):
Give me one second.
I have to get our executiveproducer.
Karen McFarlane (00:08):
Oh, okay, I see a gorgeous picture of her in
the background too.
Brittany S. Hale (00:13):
Ah, this was a gift for my birthday.
Aw, isn't it great.
Karen McFarlane (00:18):
Aw, that is fantastic, hi, mina Thank you, I
am in flesh.
You're her emotional supporthuman.
Brittany S. Hale (00:30):
I truly am.
I truly am.
It is a distinction that I wearwith honor.
I take that seriously.
Karen McFarlane (00:38):
Well, I'm excited to be here with you
today.
We are into our third season,right?
And, as a reminder to ourlisteners, we have evolved the
E-word, right.
So if you haven't caught up onthat, make sure you listen to
our first episode of seasonthree, which talks about how we
(01:01):
have redefined the E-word.
Talks about how we haveredefined the e-word, yeah, and
so with that, we're going toapproach, you know, start our
new approach to eduomania that'swhat the e-word stands for and
talk about something that hashit the news really recently.
So you want me to kick it off,brittany, or you want to kick it
(01:23):
off, I mean?
Brittany S. Hale (01:24):
you to kick it off, brittany, or you want to
kick it off.
I mean, you can kick it offlooking at many a meme, all
sorts of things, but maps dotell well, um, oh, shoot.
Karen McFarlane (01:37):
Now I just blanked on the man's name.
So the CEO of this companycalled astronomer, which is like
a B2B data company, what washis name?
Again, I can't remember hisname.
All of a sudden it's blanked onhis name.
I want to say it's Brian, butanyway, we'll figure it out.
Long story short is right, he'sa CEO and he was Andy Byard.
(01:59):
Okay, andy Byard.
Yes, so he was hanging out witha coworker at a Coldplay
concert.
A few coworkers, a fewcoworkers, but in particular
they had a special relationshipwith another coworker where they
(02:20):
were let's say hugging Nina, Iwill demonstrate.
Oh yes, For those who are justlistening.
They were hugged up together atthis event.
Brittany S. Hale (02:37):
And unfortunately You're back to
prom, your nice little prom.
Karen McFarlane (02:43):
Prom pose.
That's true.
That's a good example and youknow he's married okay, and he's
hugged up with this woman, aco-worker, I believe.
She works at hr she is theirchief people officer okay, um,
so the ceo and the chief peopleofficer are hugged up at the
(03:04):
concert amongst other co-workers, I guess, and the camera pans
to them and they're on theJumbotron while hugged up, and
so they're caught in the act,right, and this created such a
(03:53):
stir and it you know of beingmarried.
Right, it's also being done infront of other co-workers, right
, and now it is showcased in theworld and it just offers up a
lot of questions around, I don'tknow, relationships in the
workplace, appropriate behaviorfor particularly senior leaders,
and also what that falloutmeans.
(04:18):
When you do get caught, and getcaught in such a public way,
how does that affect theorganizations that you work for
and also how they respond?
Brittany S. Hale (04:31):
So that's what we want to talk about today,
yeah, and so I guess I'm goingto ask a what may seem like a
silly question Do you think thathe should have resigned?
(04:51):
Why or why not?
Karen McFarlane (04:56):
So I think that CEOs are the face of an
organization, even if it's a B2Borganization that may not
normally be in the spotlight,and so they represent the
culture and the norms that weexpect all employees you know
(05:21):
adhere to to some degree.
Because his behavior resultedin such a negative spectacle for
the organization theredefinitely needed to be some
(05:41):
sort of consequence to that andbecause it has made the company
more of a laughingstock right,with all the memes you mentioned
and there are some hilariousones, right how do people now
take the organization seriouslyif their top leader made the
(06:02):
organization a spectacle in away that's not even aligned with
their brand and their mission?
Brittany S. Hale (06:08):
Yes, what are your thoughts on that?
I think yeah.
So I mean, I think we've madethis point about virality right,
and I'm sure, as a CMO, as amarketer, we've heard companies
say we want to go viral.
As a marketer, we've heardcompanies say we want to go
viral, but the challenge in thatseems to be one you can't
(06:29):
always control what you go viralfor, right.
And two, once you go viral,what then?
Do you have a product to pointpeople to?
Do you have some sort ofexciting news Like what do you
want people to do with theattention that they're giving
you?
And so this is to your point.
(06:52):
Again, this is not what astrong and raw one to go viral
for Do.
I think that he should haveresigned.
So I've worked with seniorleaders and many of the leaders
that I've worked with.
Senior leaders and many of theleaders that I've worked with
have been of the mind that howyou do anything is how you do
everything.
And I've actually had someleaders say that if they observe
(07:19):
other leaders cheating on theirspouse, that that is an
indicator to them not to dobusiness with that person,
because they say, if you can bedisloyal to the person that
you're ostensibly sleeping nextto every night or you've, you
(07:39):
know, you've made this solemnvow to.
How can I trust that you willthen adhere to the contract that
we have, the partnership thatwe're building, how can I trust
you generally if I see thatyou're not even loyal to your
family?
And that's something that I'vehad to think about, because when
(08:03):
I saw that, of course it wasembarrassing and they made it
worse because of their reactionto being on the kiss cam.
Right, he's ducking, she'squite literally hiding her face.
Turning around, you haveanother coworker who's kind of
awkwardly staring at the kisscam and laughing.
But when I dug in, so this was acompany owned box, right?
(08:26):
So, um, I, when I thought aboutwhether or not he should resign
, my question was okay, so howmuch of the business is personal
and vice versa?
And when you come in, like I'vecome into organizations and
I've done these types ofinvestigations when it comes to
(08:47):
any potential harassment,nepotism, you know anything that
has to do with these personalrelationships impacting the
workplace, really tangled, so tosee that the chief people
officer and the CEO are having arelationship that doesn't seem
(09:07):
like they disclose to anyone,certainly not the board, because
again, they're the, they arethe bosses, right?
So who would they report to?
They report to the board, butthen you know how much of
company money is being spent onthis box.
Are we having company eventsjust to facilitate this
(09:30):
relationship?
You know so, both of theirspouses, because she's married
as well, so that both of theirspouses can then say, oh okay,
you're just going to a workthing, you know, and not cause
suspicion.
So I do think resigning is theright choice.
I mean, he's already been, he'salready in another role, so it
(09:51):
doesn't seem like it's impactedhim too much.
And I believe, I think, as of afew days ago, the CP of the
chief people officer, she's alsoresigned, which ultimately, I
think is for the best becausehuge, huge loss.
But I think they should, Ithink they should have resigned.
(10:14):
I mean it's, it's awkward, it'sbeen.
If it hasn't already, it shouldlead to a number of
investigations into how thingsare being run at astronomer and
what matters to the strong Imean you're right and you know,
(10:34):
as I was thinking about this, Iwas thinking about this in um a
couple different ways, right.
Karen McFarlane (10:40):
so one is about people's personal relationships
and while some people may feelcertain things are inappropriate
, we don't have the full story.
We don't know if, you know,they have open marriages.
We don't know if their spousesare okay with it or not okay
(11:03):
with it.
They might not be okay with itwhen it becomes public like this
, but there's a lot of thingsthat we don't know about.
What happens with peoplepersonally, but to your point,
it gets really tangled when it'scoworkers.
And it's really tangled whenyou have the top dog, a cheap
people officer, when you havethe top dog, a chief people
(11:28):
officer, that's entangled inthese situations, because if
something does go awry, that'sthe person that's supposed to.
You know, the go-to personthat's supposed to make sure
that you know these policies orthings are appropriate in the
workplace right, and when thatperson is being inappropriate,
coupled with the CEO, that justis not a good look.
And so I agree with everythingthat you said.
(11:51):
I think sometimes I just getcaught up in the personal aspect
of it.
Just because we don't like whatyou do does not mean you can't
do your work.
Those things happen all thetime, right, and I think it's
because of the roles that thisbecomes even more complex.
(12:11):
But when we also say you canbring your whole self to work
which I don't really like thatphrase right?
What does that really mean?
What are we really saying?
Or are we saying, you know,just bring parts of yourself,
just bring the worker, theworker bee parts of yourself
like that phrase right?
What does that really mean?
What are we really saying?
Or are we saying, you know,just bring parts of yourself,
just bring the worker, theworker, bee parts of yourself
(12:32):
and leave the emotional aspectsat the door?
And then what are we saying?
I just think there's justlayers to this.
I'm not defending this at all,because it probably would have
kept going on had they notgotten caught on the jumbotron.
And, like you said, there'sprobably layers.
How are they leveraging companytime to facilitate this
relationship in an inappropriateway?
Brittany S. Hale (12:52):
So all of that has to happen.
Karen McFarlane (12:54):
But we also know that people do fall for
each other at work all the time.
When you spend eight to 10hours a day at work, that's your
pool of people for the mostpart at work, that's your pool
of people for the most part, andso the deeper relationships
form.
And how do you prevent thatwhen humans are emotional beings
?
So I think it just gets reallycomplex in many different ways
(13:18):
and we have to learn how totemper that and manage those
relationships appropriately.
That will inevitably happen.
Brittany S. Hale (13:32):
It just gets worse the higher up you go.
Are you saying that the workwife, the work husband, the work
spouse should then become thereal spouse?
Karen McFarlane (13:40):
Listen, if you're already married, you're
supposed to stay with yourperson.
Or if you're in a committedrelationship, you're supposed to
stay with your person and notventure out At least that's my
belief system unless you have anarrangement.
People have uniquerelationships.
The work wife and the workhusband is a unique relationship
because, again, you're spendingall this time with people and
(14:01):
you get along with them.
You're friends.
That phrase has come out ofsomething.
When does it cross the line?
How does it cross the line?
I don't know, if you take awaythe romantic part of any
relationship in the workplace.
(14:21):
Relationship in the workplace,right.
You just like hanging out withso-and-so and there's perks
available at your company,no-transcript.
So if there's a box seat, right, hey.
(14:43):
Uh, kyle, right, choosing thatname because I watched untamed
last night on netflix with ericbanna, which, by the way, is a
very good show.
Brittany S. Hale (14:54):
so hey kyle, we are not being sponsored by
net Netflix.
Karen McFarlane (14:59):
That show is really good, you know, the
company's got a box at the Redsgame, whatever, right, let's,
let's go to that.
And Kyle is like cool, becauseI want to hang out with me.
Right, are we facilitating thatrelationship?
It's just not romantic.
But when it becomes romantic,then all of a sudden there might
(15:21):
be a problem.
Brittany S. Hale (15:23):
Yeah, so this is interesting because then it
comes back to likability, whichis so subjective and most people
do not have rigid enoughboundaries that they can
separate the personal and theprofessional, enough boundaries
(15:48):
that they can separate thepersonal and the professional.
So it is a boom if you likesomeone and you work with them
and you get along really reallywell.
That's the ideal.
Yeah, there are also somepeople that you can work really
well with together, but they maynot be your favorite person,
exactly.
And there are other people whoare that you can work really
well with together, but they maynot be your favorite person.
Karen McFarlane (16:04):
Exactly.
Brittany S. Hale (16:06):
And there are other people who are your
favorite people, but you alsoknow that the way that your two
work styles don't align.
Karen McFarlane (16:13):
Yep.
Brittany S. Hale (16:16):
We often conflate the two.
So if you say I like Kyle, kyleand I both watch Untamed we had
an amazing time talking aboutthe show.
I want Kyle on my team becauseI like our banter that is not
going to necessarily guaranteesuccess.
(16:36):
That does not take into accountKyle's capabilities, kyle's
skills.
That does not take into accountKyle's capabilities, kyle's
skills, kyle's work style,kyle's dependability.
We like Kyle, right, right.
This also reminds me of twothings.
First, I was having aconversation with a friend.
We were talking aboutbridesmaids and she said you do
(17:01):
not choose your bridesmaidsbased on who you're closest with
.
You choose your bridesmaidsbased on who's more likely to
get work done.
And it's very similar here,right?
So I've been part of weddingsand you know it's a stress test
(17:22):
for the friendship.
Sometimes people come outcloser, sometimes people you
know those friendships fractureand they never really repair
because people didn't work welltogether.
People were unreliable.
You know all of these types ofthings.
And then last week I wasactually working with a group of
attorneys and one of theattorneys.
(17:51):
We were talking about developinga performance framework and how
these attorneys can go forwardand fairly assess how people are
performing on their team fairlyassess how people are
performing on their team,because there has to be some
(18:13):
sort of objective standard thatyou can use to apply to kind of
the key behaviors that you'relooking for for a team.
And so we're going through someof these behaviors within the
framework.
And an attorney said but youknow, I still need to know more
about a person in order to beable to work with them.
I want to know more about them.
And he said, okay, so what doesthat mean?
(18:35):
He said, oh well, I need toknow.
You know, if they have kids,because you know they're going
through a rough time or theirchildren are sick, then you know
, maybe I can give them a littlebit more grace.
And then I said, okay, but thenif they don't have children,
then that leads to well, whydon't you have children?
Which could lead it to stickyterritory because if it's a
(18:59):
medical issue, right, you'resoliciting them to share private
information or you're making avalue judgment If they say, oh,
my gosh, I don't want to havekids, you know.
Or if they say you know, oh, Ihave a dog, or my dog has
special needs, or my dog hasspecial needs, and so the grace
(19:23):
that you might have afforded aparent of a sick child, should
you afford that to the parent ofa special needs pet?
So then you're adding in all ofthese factors, right?
That complicate therelationship.
(19:43):
Additionally, some people valueprivacy, right?
I don't necessarily owe myco-workers a deep dive into my
life outside of work.
Some people agree with that,some people disagree with that.
Karen McFarlane (19:59):
I agree with them.
You don't owe it, but I thinkfor some people it's natural to
deliver that.
You know to offer that up,because it's about building that
connection beyond the work andoftentimes when you have a
deeper connection while doingthe work, you can become more
(20:21):
productive.
So I totally agree that youshouldn't choose Kyle just
because you like him, becauseyou can like a lot of people.
You should choose Kyle becauseyou can work effectively with
him and the bonus is that youlike Kyle right, because that
(20:42):
could create a deeper, better,more productive working
relationship when you're notannoyed with the person that you
have to work with and then whenyou develop that deeper
relationship and you get to knowpeople more personally, that
allows you more room to supportin many different ways.
(21:06):
I think it has to do more withthe mindset and how you're going
to use that information.
So if that person who wants toknow more is looking beyond the
black and white concepts rightand deeper into the person's
spirit and what drives andmotivates them, I think that's a
(21:29):
positive.
Again, it gets a little trickyin how that is applied and
that's why relationships ingeneral are so complex, because
it's not even just about theindividual person.
It's about the individualperson and how they interact
(21:50):
with all the other differentpeople individually and within
groups, and those dynamics canshift and change and you need a
high level of emotionalintelligence in order to manage
all of that complexity.
Brittany S. Hale (22:26):
I think you brought up a very critical part,
which is you need a high levelof emotional intelligence there,
and we're still working on that.
When it comes to accuratelyassessing leadership potential.
Karen McFarlane (22:34):
Absolutely, and I think I have a high level of
emotional intelligence, but Ialways kick in Right A hundred
percent and I ask myselfquestions of emotional
intelligence, right, but it canalways kick in right 100% of the
time and I ask myself questionsaround how I'm perceiving or
how I'm reacting to something.
So I have particular triggersfor myself.
(22:59):
Disrespect is a huge triggerfor me.
I have a hard time moving pastthat and I take that very
personally, right, and so that'ssomething I have to be aware of
because it may skew my reaction.
Um, I also like to reflect onthe individual person and their
(23:29):
particular style of work and ofcommunication, because that may
differ from my style, it maydiffer from the next person, but
if I look at things with just asingular lens, I'm going to
miss some very important cuesthat are going to enable this
person to not only be productivebut also feel good about their
(23:50):
productivity, because I thinkthere's the work and that's how
you feel about the work, and sowe all have to take a step back
and understand the lens throughwhich we are viewing the world
and, again, those triggers andalso the things that motivate me
but also do that individuallyfor people, and then reflect on
(24:12):
am I reacting to this particularsituation based on my
perception?
Do I need to add in some otherlayers, like background is
important to some degree.
The question of home isimportant.
Did this person not get it done?
Because there are things goingon in their life right now and I
(24:37):
should be sensitive to that andhelp them solve for it, which
requires a personal point ofview right To understand that.
Otherwise, I'm going to thinkthat they're just not doing the
work, when there's maybe a verygood reason they can't do it.
They don't understand it, theyneed some more guidance, they
need a buddy, they like to workon their own.
(24:58):
Whatever the different thingsare Okay, so you have to be
willing to do that workindividually to get that person
to the next point of success.
Brittany S. Hale (25:10):
Absolutely, and I think there are different
levels of accountability basedon whether or not you're an
individual contributor, yes,whether you're a team leader,
whether you're a team leader,whether you are, you know, if
you are in a silo and I thinkthis is also going back to the
(25:32):
challenges versus the benefitsof remote work is asking how we
can foster collaboration, askinghow we can foster collaboration
, trust and connection within avirtual box.
We know it's possible, right,our friendship started via Zoom,
(25:53):
right, but there's alsosomething to be said for being
able to connect with someone inperson.
Yes, experience them and all ofthe intangibles, right, the the
intuitive markers that we getanytime we encounter another
(26:18):
human being.
But, um, I think this again isan invitation to assess what's
important to you.
If affiliation is important toyou, if you need to be part of a
team, what is it about thatteam that you enjoy?
Do you enjoy being the personeveryone can rely on?
(26:42):
Are you motivating people?
Are you, you know?
Do you like a sense of powerand control?
And all of those things factorinto these relationships.
If I had to look at this CEOand CPO, I would definitely say
(27:02):
well, first, my question wouldbe did they know each other
before she assumed the role,because I believe, at least from
what's publicly available, itlooks like she assumed the role
in November, so she hasn't evenbeen there a year, right?
So this is either a whirlwindLove at first sight.
Love at first sight Right, it'sa whirlwind romance or it is
(27:27):
something that is.
Maybe there was a priorconnection, right, right that
they were able to build on inthis space able to build on in
(27:56):
this space.
And I wanted to also give somespace to Andy Byron's soon-to-be
ex-wife.
Have you seen her statement?
Karen McFarlane (28:01):
No, I did not see her statement.
What is it?
Brittany S. Hale (28:05):
Okay, so I'm going to read this out to you,
partly because she released astatement on my birthday.
It was the gift that kept ongiving.
But I'm going to go paragraphby paragraph and I would love
your in real time reaction.
So says wife of Andrew Byrondash, for now, love it.
(28:28):
It has come to my attention,and apparently to the attention
of half the internet, that myhusband, andrew Byron, has made
certain dot dot dot choices,public ones, under stadium
lights, during a Coldplayconcert and venue, not typically
associated with infidelity.
(28:49):
But here we are.
Karen McFarlane (28:56):
Okay, next, what's her name again?
What's her name again?
Megan, megan.
Brittany S. Hale (29:06):
Okay, megan Megan.
Next, what's her name again?
What's her name again?
Megan megan.
Okay, megan.
So, um, I should also note thatshe'd removed her husband's
surname from her facebookprofile before she deleted her
facebook profile in the daysfollowing the concert, so this
is attributed to her.
We don't know for sure, butassuming it is, we're going to
(29:29):
continue.
Let me be perfectly clear.
I am not issuing this statementin defense, nor in heartbreak.
I am issuing it in power, inprecision, in silk gloves and
sharpened wit.
Karen McFarlane (29:45):
Oh, oh, megan.
Okay, I don't know you, but Ilike you already.
Brittany S. Hale (29:54):
For sure.
Karen McFarlane (29:57):
Put on my boxing gloves, because I'm
getting ready to go.
Brittany S. Hale (30:00):
Exactly because I'm getting ready to go,
I will not be engaging inperformative forgiveness, nor am
I interested in the optics ofgrace racism.
What Andy has done is not justhumiliating, it is banal common.
A man of ambition brought downby his own astonishing lack of
(30:23):
imagination.
Karen McFarlane (30:27):
That's a diss to the what's her name again.
Brittany S. Hale (30:31):
To the astronomer CPO yes.
Karen McFarlane (30:34):
Call her CPO.
That's a straight diss to theCPO.
Kristen Cabot, kristen Okay,let me write down.
Kristen Megan and Andy GotchaOkay, let me write down.
Brittany S. Hale (30:44):
Kristen Megan and Andy Gotcha.
Okay, I have retained counsel,I have reviewed holdings, I have
reallocated what was once oursinto what is now very cleanly
mine Strike.
I am not spiraling, I amascending.
And while Andy may have quotedColdplay in his statement, I
(31:07):
will simply say when the lightswent out, I saw everything
clearly.
To those who expect tears, Idon't cry for clowns.
I schedule, I document, Irebuild.
Don't cry for clowns.
This is not revenge, it isrefinement, and he will feel it
(31:29):
in the silence that follows.
Karen McFarlane (31:35):
I wonder if Megan's a cancer, feels very
cancer-y Okay.
Brittany S. Hale (31:42):
It feels very cancer-y.
Okay, it feels very muchaligned with our astrological
signs.
If you're in the proverbialshell, cancers, their sign is
the crab.
If you're in the shell fiercelydefending, she could be a
(32:03):
scorpio too.
Karen McFarlane (32:05):
Yeah, because it feels very like you know.
Yeah, she could be.
Or taurus yeah, we need to lookup her birth to confirm, yeah
you need to do this please letus, if you see this, please let
us know.
I respect this statement, right, she's simply moving on.
(32:28):
It sounds as if, obviously, wedon't know her, but it sounds as
if she's not shocked by thisbehavior.
This just may be the last straw, or she doesn't allow for any
straws Once in a while you'reout, there's no straws.
Brittany S. Hale (32:45):
No straws available.
Karen McFarlane (32:46):
So either no straws or this is the last straw
, but whatever it is, we're outof straws at this point in time
and she knows what her optionsare and she's moving forward.
I would like to build anarrative around this that is
completely just.
My own in this story is thatshe was waiting for this moment
to happen.
She knew it would inevitablyhappen and she's already got her
(33:09):
ducks in a row and she's aboutto just collect her checks and
she was like, oh you're busted,I get my moment.
Do, do, do, do, do, activate,activate.
Um, I would like that in herstory.
Brittany S. Hale (33:25):
I don't know if it is, but what was it maya
andrew who said when people showyou who they are?
Yes, so I just believe that atsome point in time she became
aware of its behaviors, becauseI am persuaded by the idea of
how you do anything is how youdo everything.
(33:48):
So if this is someone who veryclearly needed to be in the
limelight, figuratively andliterally, then Possibly, who
knows, we'll never really know.
You know we will not, but thisis.
(34:09):
This is not uncommon, Right?
You see very public co-workerscome together, right?
Good Morning Americacorrespondents.
Right, they were both married,had a longstanding affair, came
(34:30):
together and now, ironically,their exes are in a relationship
.
Karen McFarlane (34:36):
I think that's what makes this so complex.
Right, it's generally accepted,it's just how you do it.
And who knows what washappening before this Coldplay
concert, if they were justhaving an affair, or if they
fell in love or going to getmarried, if they had plans to do
this in an appropriate way?
(34:56):
We, we may never know the trutharound that.
It's just that you know theyhappen to get caught right, and
Megan may intentionally getcaught in this way.
I think there's many differentways they could do it, but maybe
who knows, you know, we don'tknow.
(35:20):
But also with Megan, you knowshe could have had everything on
speed dial.
But I also think that whensomething like this happens so
publicly and shames you, itactivates a different part of
your brain, right, like, whoknows, maybe she would have been
able to forgive, forgiven it, Idon't know, but when this
(35:40):
happens in this way.
But I think the the, thequestion for everybody which
speaks to the everythingstatement is what are your
values?
What are your personal values?
How do those personal valuesmatch to the company values?
And I know for me, if I wasprivy to that behavior, it would
(36:09):
upset me, it would change how Ithought about the people,
particularly in those roles andthe organizations, and that also
says to me that you condonethis type of behavior, which
means you condone it throughoutthe organization.
And this is probably not aplace for me, because we know
cultures differ everywhere.
(36:30):
I'm not going to fit intocertain cultures and that's fine
.
And so this is indicative inthis public display because
you're at a concert, in acompany box with coworkers of
how you feel about relationships.
Brittany S. Hale (36:53):
Truly, and I mean Kristen, especially as a
people operations professionalRight.
So a little bit of backgroundon her.
She is married to Andrew Cabot.
Do you know who Andrew Cabot is, andrew Cabot?
Andrew Cabot is CEO ofPrivateer Room.
(37:14):
So he was actually on anoverseas trip in Japan, oh, when
everything broke out.
Oh, and so he was in Asia, theysaid, for a few weeks.
He returned on that Saturday,so he was gone while everything
went down.
And so Kristen and Andrew gotmarried in 2022, after her
(37:37):
previous divorce was finalized,and you know, of course, that
sent me wondering okay, was sheat another concert with Andrew?
I've been there, and so a fewmonths ago, they purchased a
$2.2 million mansion in Rye, newHampshire, and a source says
(38:01):
that his family is now sayingthat they've been having
marriage trouble for severalmonths and that they were
discussing separating.
And the source says they thinkit's interesting because, as of
a month ago, they were sayinghow in love they are.
So this could be Andrew Stanleyhoping to save face.
But Andrew is the descendant ofthe Cabot family and they're
(38:23):
part of America's elite class,also known as the Boston
Brahmins, and you know it'sessentially a descriptor for
Boston's elite families in NewEngland.
Karen McFarlane (38:35):
So she married very, very well when she married
Andrew and so you know, as youtalked about this, this um,
andrew, and so you know, as youtalked about this, this um,
there's another layer to this,you know.
So, andy, he's in his new role,he'll be fine.
Yes, men, cheating generally isaccepted.
(38:57):
Women doing it.
It's a different.
Almost expected, almostexpected, right.
Women doing it.
It's a different thing.
Almost expected, almostexpected, right.
Women doing it has a differentconnotation and different
consequences to it.
So, again, given her role as achief people officer question
will she be able to get a rolelike that again?
No-transcript layers to that,but because she's an adulterer
(39:25):
on face value right now, thatcreates some complexity for her
should her husband want to get adivorce.
And so I really hope for hersake, although I don't know her
right, because I don't know her,I don't hate any of these
people, right, like whatever.
I hope that Andy and her wereactually in love and Andy takes
(39:51):
care of, helps her, like getback on her feet and takes care
of her, because I really do feellike it's going to be a
challenge for her to get thatparticular role again.
Particular role again she'sgoing to have to do a career
pivot, whereas Andy is alreadysettled.
So the risks are higher fordifferent people.
(40:16):
Maybe it wouldn't be so greatif it wasn't that particular
role.
I don't know, but it's alreadya challenge.
Or maybe she'll be okay, maybeshe'll have a nice settlement
and divorce and keep it moving.
But as people think about youknow not only their values, they
have to.
And I'm wondering and for thelisteners, the ex-wife- of the
(40:49):
Colby thing.
Brittany S. Hale (40:51):
Right, right, exactly which I had forgotten,
right.
Karen McFarlane (40:57):
I had forgotten that for a second, because I'm
like, why, gwyneth?
I'm curious what you thoughtabout the video which, for
listeners who haven't seen itAstronomer hired Gwyneth Paltrow
the actress Gwyneth Paltrow tobe their temporary spokesperson
in light of this wholecontroversy, and she did like a
(41:19):
quick I think it's like a minutevideo sort of on it, sort of
I'm wondering what your thoughtswere about it.
Brittany S. Hale (41:31):
So I I thought it was really, I thought it was
a stroke of genius, especiallyfor people who are chronically
online, to be able to take theattention right, because before
this I know I wasn't speakingabout astronomer, I don't think
(41:54):
you were speaking aboutastronomer and so to be able to
capitalize on this to also kindof bring pop culture along right
, because we all know, when itcomes to chris and gwyneth,
we've had this.
They had a very famousrelationship, their children are
famous, and so for her to weighin on this and you have this
(42:19):
kind of breaking the fourth wallmoment.
But they were able to redirectthe attention because Andy has
kind of fallen to the wayside.
Kristen, I'm so glad youbrought up the difference in how
women who are involved inpublic affairs have been treated
and continue to be treated, atleast in the United States.
(42:43):
All of that blowback, but nowastronomers.
Astronomers have been able tosay, ok, this is an opportunity,
right?
No bad press.
So while you're talking about astrong American, let's get
someone that we all know anA-list celebrity.
Immediately I'm thinking, oh,how much do they have to pay her
(43:03):
to do?
Karen McFarlane (43:03):
that.
Brittany S. Hale (43:05):
I've seen their budget for this but
they're able to have her explainwho the company is, what
they're used for, what theirunique value prop is, and I
think that was really cool.
I don't know that it is goingto move the needle in terms of
acquiring a new business, and sothat's where my concern lies,
(43:31):
but from a I would guess saymaybe a PR perspective, I think
it was stroke of genius.
Ultimately, when it comes timeto at the end of the fiscal year
, to have that discussion Right.
What do you?
Karen McFarlane (43:47):
think, yeah, you know, first of all, you know
I think this is why marketingcorporate communications is so
important.
Sometimes organizations don'tput enough emphasis or budget
towards it, and so this is anexample, you know, even
especially in B, even in B2Bcompanies, right Um, why those
(44:11):
roles are clearly necessary.
So I agree with you.
I feel like it was reallyclever as a way to attempt to
change the narrative and leaninto some of the social media
you know, savviness that B2Bcompanies don't really often get
(44:33):
to play into, and so I thoughtthat was quite clever and I
don't think there's anythingwrong with it, Like I think it
was a positive, interesting spin, kind of meet the moment where
you're at.
You know, I saw some commentsonline and like why wouldn't
they have you know, like, say,their board chair or somebody
come in?
I don't think that it wouldhave had the same social media
(44:56):
play had it been you knowsomeone within the company,
although for, from a differentperspective, for future buyers,
I think that is more importantHaving you know someone from
within the company make somesort of statement, or you know.
(45:21):
However, they wanted to spinthat because I don't know that I
don't believe that anyone'sgoing to buy their services
because Gwyneth Paltrow said soright.
So there's still a lot of workto do to regain that type of
(45:42):
trust, Because even for peoplewho are looking for those types
of services, if you Google thatthat will always come up.
It will always be some level ofscandal.
So how you handle thatafterwards is really critical,
and that's why I think that hehad to resign, because it
couldn't be a company thatallowed that type of behavior
and could build trust withfuture companies, because that
(46:05):
was broken with the public.
But they still have to continuebuilding it, and I think the
first step was definitely theresignation.
The second step was definitelyhow do we change the narrative?
And the third step is going tobe much more quieter in terms of
it's going to be within totheir audience base, to their
(46:27):
prime audience base.
They can't spend too much timeon social media with this stuff
and zhuzh it up even more.
It's not going to be good fortheir marketing.
It was clever, it was cute, itplayed into the moment.
It probably cost him a lot ofmoney and hopefully it works.
Brittany S. Hale (46:47):
Yeah hopefully , because, with his resignation,
wondering if there's some sortof agreement and they agreed on
to say, hey, you know, we'llgive you a golden parachute.
Goodbye.
You have to exit two ceos.
You have to hire an executivesearch firm.
Karen McFarlane (47:09):
I know that the coo is stepping up as an
interim but there's going to bean executive search now for two
roles and that's expensive yeah,yeah, and all the conversations
they're going to have to haveinternally, like you said, the
investigations, you know, um,maybe updating of their values
(47:32):
and policies and and procedures.
It it actually has caused a lotmore work and distraction, uh,
but it has to be done becauseyou got to shore up your
foundation and make sure peopleare still aligned with the
mission and vision of theorganization.
(47:53):
So they'll get past it right,Because they got rid of the
problem.
You know so it totally will.
But you know so it totally will.
But you know organizations haveto be careful about how they
deal with these types ofsituations, but also practical,
(48:14):
about what happens in theworkplace.
Now, this might be a case forremote work.
Brittany S. Hale (48:24):
Yes, yes, I think that's as good a case as
any.
Right If we're not in groupsessions, you know there's no
stroll around the office office.
You know, make sure that our,our engagements are purposeful
(48:47):
and on target.
Karen McFarlane (48:54):
Yes, exactly so we'll see what happens going
forward.
If they're still in the news, Ithink they don't want to be not
in that way, but we'll see.
Brittany S. Hale (48:58):
No, no, no, We'll keep an eye on it.
We'll keep an eye on it, but no, no, no, we'll keep an eye on
it.
Karen McFarlane (49:12):
We'll keep an eye on it, but very interesting.
Brittany S. Hale (49:15):
It's a very interesting situation Moral of
the story is don't get caught.
If you're going to do dirt,don't get caught.
Continue to lurk in the dark ifthat's what you were going to
do.
Karen McFarlane (49:27):
There's a kid here somewhere.
I'm going to be a littlegendered and be like.
That's the moral of the storyfor men and women.
Don't do it, Okay, Because theconsequences are completely
different.
Brittany S. Hale (49:46):
The consequences are completely
different.
I have not seen anywhere.
Ask Monica Lewinsky, ask any ofthese women who were in very,
very public situations and paidthe cost To this day.
(50:06):
Monica Lewinsky, I mean, I'msure she's done great work.
We don't know about that.
Karen McFarlane (50:12):
We only know her for one thing, which is
really At this point it's beendecades of ridicule and laughter
.
Yeah, the consequences arevastly different.
So we have to be careful andyou know, I would just say that
everyone needs to think aboutthat.
You could be caught up in asituation and both parties in
the relationship need to reallythink about how this affects one
(50:35):
another and be willing to paythe cost if should that happen.
So good luck to megan and andy,yes, and kristin.
Everybody it's good luck, um,you know, I don't want to vilify
(50:56):
them in a way because again,that was that's their business,
um, but we'll see what happens,or maybe we won't.
Brittany S. Hale (51:06):
We're still thinking that your true love has
not already happened.
Karen McFarlane (51:11):
Exactly, exactly.
Hey, mina, how do we do?
Brittany S. Hale (51:19):
She's pretty good.
I think she did a good job.
Karen McFarlane (51:22):
I'm proud of us All right.
Well, we got to get feedback,and we love feedback from the
listeners too on our newapproach, so give it to us, let
us know what you think.
All right, brittany, until nexttime.
Bye.
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On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Cardiac Cowboys
The heart was always off-limits to surgeons. Cutting into it spelled instant death for the patient. That is, until a ragtag group of doctors scattered across the Midwest and Texas decided to throw out the rule book. Working in makeshift laboratories and home garages, using medical devices made from scavenged machine parts and beer tubes, these men and women invented the field of open heart surgery. Odds are, someone you know is alive because of them. So why has history left them behind? Presented by Chris Pine, CARDIAC COWBOYS tells the gripping true story behind the birth of heart surgery, and the young, Greatest Generation doctors who made it happen. For years, they competed and feuded, racing to be the first, the best, and the most prolific. Some appeared on the cover of Time Magazine, operated on kings and advised presidents. Others ended up disgraced, penniless, and convicted of felonies. Together, they ignited a revolution in medicine, and changed the world.