March 18, 2025 • 34 mins
“We live in a world designed to distract us. Quiet isn’t passivity—it’s an active resistance, a space to reconnect with God and ourselves,” says celebrated singer-songwriter Jon Guerra in this episode. He joins hosts Camille Hall-Ortega and Marcus Goodyear to explore the profound relationship between worship, silence, and beauty. Known for his devotional music and work on the critically acclaimed film A Hidden Life, Jon shares his journey from confetti cannons to quiet reflection, crafting songs that offer healing and connection in a noisy world. Together, they talk about the transformative power of worship, the importance of embracing silence, and the ways beauty can draw us closer to God. If you are looking to create a sacred space in your own life, you don’t want to miss this one.
NOTES:
Jon Guerra’s website
"American Gospel" from Jon Guerra's latest EP
Keeper of Days by Jon Guerra
A Hidden Life by Terrence Malick
On Beauty and Being Just by Elaine Scarry
“As Kingfishers Catch Fire” by Gerard Manley Hopkins
Practicing the Way - John Mark Comer
On Beauty and Being Just - Elaine Scarry
The Beatitudes from the Gospels (Matthew 5:3–12)
The Lord’s Prayer (Matthew 6:10)
Ecclesiastes on the rain and sun (Ecclesiastes 9:2)
Mary Magdalene at the tomb (John 20:11–18)
State of the heart (Proverbs 14:13)
Production Team:
- Written and produced by Camille Hall-Ortega, Rob Stennett, and Marcus Goodyear
- Edited by Rob Stennett and Kim Stone
- Executive Producers: Patton Dodd and David Rogers
- Funded by the H. E. Butt Foundation
Special thanks to our guest Jon Guerra for sharing his insights on worship and music.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Camille Hall-Ortega (00:02):
From the time I was very small, worship
was an integral part of my life.At the tiny age of three years
old, I stood in front of mygrandmother's church in Memphis,
Tennessee, a visitor no less,and sang, Jesus loves me, in
front of the congregation.Worship, this word, this
(00:25):
activity, this way of life thatcould sound so odd and foreign
for those not familiar with it,became my haven. An act of
surrender, a joyous celebration,an opportunity for gratitude,
for reminders, for community,for sharpening my musical
(00:47):
skills, for escape. Many of usspend our days bombarded by
alerts, notifications from work,social media chatter, crowded
Netflix queues, and requestsfrom loved ones. And I wonder,
in this world of hustle andbustle and busyness, where does
(01:08):
worship fit? What should it looklike? Should we view worship as
an opportunity to quiet thenoise in our lives?
Contemplation, silence,reflection, they can all be
hugely important, but is quietworship?
(01:29):
From the H.E.Butt Foundation,I'm Camille Hall-Ortega, and
this is The Echoes Podcast.
On today's episode, we'rewelcoming Jon Guerra, a
celebrated singer-songwriter whocrafts devotional music. Jon is
ranked on multiple BillboardCharts, including ones for folk
and Christian albums, and hecomposed music for the feature
(01:49):
film, A Hidden Life. He'sachieved widespread critical
acclaim, and he and his wife,Valerie, record, perform, and
offer songwriting MasterClasses.
I'm here with my co-host, MarcusGoodyear. Welcome, Jon.
Jon Guerra (02:02):
Thanks so much for having me.
Camille Hall-Ortega (02:03):
Well, as you know, we are very, very big
fans of yours and music. And weare not alone. You've a lot of
folks who are big fans, but youhave a pretty, I think, distinct
way of describing your music.You call it a collaboration with
(02:24):
quiet. What does that mean?
Jon Guerra (02:28):
Well, that means that, I like to be different,
and I like to describe music inweird ways, first of all. You
know, I'm embedded in, because Iwrite Christian music, I'm kind
of embedded in an industry thatI think has been co-opted by the
spirit of hype and loudness andvolume.
Marcus Goodyear (02:50):
Yeah.
Jon Guerra (02:50):
And what I'm trying to do with my music is cultivate
a a different kind of space.And, it's the kind of space that
I think makes us most receptiveto the voice of God and to our
own quiet, whispers and murmurs.I think sometimes we are so
(03:12):
estranged even from ourselvesthat it takes quiet to kind of
remind us what we're eventhinking about x, y, or z or how
we're even feeling about our ownlives. And so I with my music,
I'm trying to go to that placemyself, first of all, of quiet,
of silence, figure out what'sthere, and try to hear God there
(03:36):
and write music from that spaceso that hopefully when people
listen to that music, it drawsthem into that space themselves,
and maybe they can hear a littlebit of God for themselves.
Camille Hall-Ortega (03:46):
Oh, that's so good. But there was a lot
there. I'm very intrigued by alot of things. So I should tell
you, I am a worship leader andhave been a worship leader for
years. And I've got some Baptistroots, but now
nondenominational.
But I've done the small churchthing. I've done the megachurch
thing. And then obviously nowbeing a part of the H.E.Butt
(04:07):
Foundation and getting toexperience Laity Lodge, worship
music can kinda run the gamut.
And so it sounds like you'resaying we need a break from the
noise and the loud because itgives us this opportunity to
hear. But does that mean thatthere's a right way to worship
(04:27):
or a wrong way to worship? Inyour opinion, I would love to to
hear more about it.
Jon Guerra (04:31):
I do think there's a right and a wrong way to
worship. It's the soul'sattentiveness to God is the
right way. Trying to give Godwhatever we think God deserves,
whether or not we we feel thator not, I very much believe in
going through the motions. Thatthen begs the question, what
kind of motions are we goingthrough? I think there's
(04:53):
something sane about kneeling,for instance.
I think that, oh, you know, youkneel every day for a decade. I
am of the persuasion that thatdoes something to your own sense
of your position in the worldand before God. If you were to
walk into a grocery store or amall or any kind of public
(05:14):
space, most likely there's musicthat's meant to get your blood
flowing. And when we go intochurch and we hear music that
maybe you'd hear at the mall, wehear a style of music that is
also, it's it's doing the samekind of things to our humanity,
to our personhood, then it justkind of begs the question, what
exactly is the goal of of themusic? I've been a part of all
(05:38):
sorts of traditions myself.
My dad's a pastor,nondenominational church,
Hispanic church, and I was at alarger megachurch for a bunch of
years. And I do think thatpeople are meeting God and
worshiping God in those contextstoo. But as I've kind of grown
older, as I've noticed the waymy own heart and soul is
(06:04):
fatigued with noise, and I'vesort of lost my at different
periods of my life, lost myability to pay attention to
anything or lost my ability orfind myself in seasons of
depression and, disillusionment,the thing that doesn't help me
is loud hype, you know. And Ithink it's the Proverbs or
(06:25):
Psalms that say something whenthe heart is sorrowful, when the
heart is grieving, it's likethere's something bitter about
rejoicing.
And, I found both solace,comfort, healing, and
nourishment in recognizing thatI can be completely still before
God and that, number one, isenough. And number two, there's
(06:48):
actually, there's not passivitythere. There's actually activity
in being quiet and silent,especially in a world that is
seems to be constructed todistract us.
And because when we'redistracted, we spend money, and
we eat more calories, and weclick more things. And so I'm
(07:11):
just trying to kinda go againstthe grain with my music because
I think there's something inChristianity that allows us that
space and that is actually helpsus find God there.
Marcus Goodyear (07:21):
It just feels so insightful to think of church
sometimes using music to hypethe crowd. I get why you would
do that because it brings peopletogether. Right? It helps them
focus. It focuses the energy.
It gets exciting. You want themto come back. If they're
excited, they're more likely tocome back. Was there a moment
(07:42):
for you or or a season for youwhere you were in that hype mode
at one of these previouschurches and you were being
called to something different.
Jon Guerra (07:51):
Yeah. I was. I was a worship leader at a church and,
I remember there was an Easterservice where I was supposed to
let off a confetti cannon. And Idid it, and I left that I left
actually, not that one. I leftafter the fifth service. I left
(08:11):
kind of like, what in the worldis going on here?
I was kind of going through aperiod of depression. There's a
lot of stuff going on in mypersonal life with my family,
and I just felt so estrangedfrom whatever that was. And, I
studied historical theology incollege and knew about the value
(08:33):
of silence and the contemplativetradition and decided I needed
some more quiet in my life.
So I decided I was going tospend my commute in quiet. And
at the time, I was living inChicago, and I was taking the
train from the North Side to theSouth Side where my studio was.
And it was about a thirty fiveminute commute. And I started
spending that commute in insilence, like, not listening to
anything, not reading anything.City's pretty loud anyway.
(08:56):
There's the sound of the noise,but there's also the sound of of
just, you know, shuffling offeet if you're in the city with
people and there's maybe youhear the trees on it from from
my apartment to the train. Andsomething about that period... I
ended up doing that for about, Idon't know, eight or nine months
before our daughter was born,and the silence kinda began to
(09:19):
grow a little bit more. When Iwent into the studio, I wouldn't
turn on the stuff right away. Iwould kind of sit in a little
bit of quiet.
And my wife and I had been doinga little, rhythm of morning
prayer together at that time aswell, and that kind of morning
prayer felt like it began to geta little bit longer. Like, we'd
set a timer for a minute ofquiet, and then it was two
minutes and then five. And itjust was a very rich thing for
(09:40):
me. Also, I was writing my albumKeeper of Days at that time and
realizing I actually want towrite music for this space and
for cultivating this kind ofthing in people.
But that's really, I think, as asongwriter and worship leader,
frankly, I still lead worship inmy church. This is kind of what
(10:01):
I think I'm meant to contributeto the body of Christ is this
just trying to facilitatehealing for people. I think
quiet and silence is healing forall of us living in this
country, in this day and age, inthe Western world at least,
where we're just we're bathed innoise at all times.
Camille Hall-Ortega (10:17):
I love that. I think it's beautiful.
And just hearing the stories ofhow you sort of tried out these
practices that you kind of said,this doesn't feel right. This
very noisy take on thingsdoesn't feel right. And so just
trying out those practices, Ican tell how it moved you to
where you are today.
(10:38):
I'm wondering I think for a lotof people, what you're
describing can sound a bitscary.
Jon Guerra (10:44):
Yeah.
Camille Hall-Ortega (10:45):
If I'm committing to times of silence,
I don't know what that lookslike for me or means for me. Why
do you think we are sometimesafraid of that quiet and that
silence?
Jon Guerra (10:59):
Well, two things. I think we're afraid of it because
I think we're afraid of what'sthere. I think also there's a
little voice in our head that'ssaying if we don't attend to the
immediate responsibilitiesbefore us, then something's
gonna happen. The world's gonnaend. Our family's gonna end. The
bills won't get paid. Some ofthat is real. Right? Some of
that is, like, you know, there'sa lot to do as an adult, as a
(11:20):
parent, as a married person, asan employee, but that voice is
louder than it needs to be.
Marcus Goodyear (11:26):
Jon, were were you always an anti-confetti
cannon worship leader, or isthat something that that
developed? Like, in other words,like, is your desire for quiet
reflection more of a personalitytrait? Or is it something that
that has just comes naturally toyou?
Jon Guerra (11:44):
You know, there's probably something about my
personality that is more benttowards stillness and quiet, at
least at this point in my life.But when I was younger, I was
very much a believer in the sortof high impact services that a
lot of megachurches are builtaround. High impact services in
order to get people in the door,to get them feeling connected,
(12:04):
get them in a small group. Idon't think that anymore. The
confetti cannon never felt rightto me. That always just struck
me as just a little, like, Idon't know, like a caricature of
joy or something.
Yeah, just the the idea of aconfetti cannon on Easter
morning, I mean, it just it begsthe comparison between Jesus
(12:26):
coming out of the tomb andconfetti coming out of the
cannon. It just it's it's very-
I mean, so you can see thelogic. Right? It's like, we need
to celebrate this the way wecelebrate the most important
celebrations of our lives. So ifyour team is winning the Super
Bowl, what do you see at theSuper Bowl? You see confetti.
(12:46):
You see people losing theirminds.
Marcus Goodyear (12:48):
Beer. You see beer. Did you have beer at the
church?
Jon Guerra (12:50):
Yeah. It's true. No. Exactly. The problem with that,
I mean, there's so many problemswith that that I see now, but
the main thing is it I justdon't think that actually does
justice to the reality of theresurrection as we experience it
in our lives right now. Iactually think the scriptures
give evidence of what thereality is.
The resurrection was receivedfirst and foremost through
(13:12):
tears. I mean, Mary, whoreceived it, she received it
through tears, and I thinkthat's probably more the
reality. And then there was themajority of the time was spent
trying to make sense of thisthing that was unverifiable
because Jesus was gone.
Camille Hall-Ortega (13:27):
Yeah. Yeah.
Jon Guerra (13:28):
And, what we're doing in our churches and what
we have done in a lot of thosechurches has given people a
wrong expectation of what theChristian life should be and is
and what our life with God is.When you go to an Easter service
and and you hear Jesus is alive,confetti cannon, lose your mind
in joy, then when you the therug gets pulled out from
(13:48):
underneath you, you aredisillusioned, you don't feel
like the presence of God is nearyou anymore, you don't think you
believe anymore. The last placeyou want to go is the church
because you're like, "Well, thathas nothing to do with me or my
experience."
I remember there was a coupleyears where it felt like
everybody was deconstructing,everything was kind of up for
grabs.
Marcus Goodyear (14:07):
Yeah. I think we're still there, Jon.
Jon Guerra (14:09):
Maybe we're still there. Yeah. Yeah. And I think a
lot of it has more to do withpeople rejecting a version of
Christianity that doesn't makesense with their lives. And that
I bless to the stars, please. Ifthat's not you, then great. That
doesn't need to be you, but thatthat's not the totality of our
(14:29):
life with God.
Camille Hall-Ortega (14:30):
Exactly.
Jon Guerra (14:31):
When we don't give space for lament, for grief, for
silence, for contemplation, it'slike wrong salesmanship. It's
like it's the the bill of goodsis, you know, you think you're
getting one thing and then youget another, in fact. You know,
you get the dark night of thesoul. You get, doubting. You get
all these things.
Camille Hall-Ortega (14:47):
Then you go, why don't why don't I feel
like popping a confetti cannonlike these other people?
Jon Guerra (14:51):
That's right. And and maybe this isn't for me.
Maybe I'm not saying, oh, mygoodness. How many of us have
felt estranged by being atchurch, you know, when that
happens?
Camille Hall-Ortega (14:59):
I just love the the thought of these
practices of quieting the mindand quieting the space and the
noise just kind of allowing itto dissipate. I find myself even
just even just in times of like,kind of wanting to close close a
chapter or complete something,even in simple ways. You know, I
(15:20):
have a commute, I commute fromSan Antonio to Kurville for
work. And so I listen to a lotof audiobooks and when I finish
an audiobook, I just amcommitted to, on the next ride
home, I'll just be silent.
Right? Like, it's just likemoment of completion. Like, I've
had however many hours of anaudiobook of noise on my
(15:42):
commute. And now as a kind ofspace between, I'll just have
these moment this time ofsilence to kind of say, like,
I've completed something, andI'll start something anew. And
so I'll give some space there.
Jon Guerra (15:55):
Yeah.
Camille Hall-Ortega (15:55):
But not everybody's lives look like a
long commute. And so if thereare the folks that say, okay, I
buy what you're saying, I'mhearing you. There is value in
silence. There's value in thissort of intentional seeking of
peace and of quiet. And I knowthat God values this, but my
(16:16):
life doesn't really look likethat. I've got these kids or
I've got this fast moving job orwhere do they start? What would
you say is for someone who'slike, that's gonna be really
difficult for me, but I do buyin. What's a first step?
Jon Guerra (16:32):
I mean, I think the first step is, really having a
mindset shift of what kind ofcreature you think you really
are.
Camille Hall-Ortega (16:42):
Mhmm.
Jon Guerra (16:43):
We spend the majority of our lives doing
things, but we weren't firstmade doers. We were made to be.
We are beings. And quiet andcontemplation isn't just the
absence of doing. It's the it'sthe presence of being.
It's the presence of... it'smaking yourself aware daily that
(17:06):
you are a creature loved by Godinfinitely with infinite value.
John Mark Comer, I love. Hesays, "Contemplation is simply
spending time imagining Godlooking at you with a smile and
looking at you lovingly."
Marcus Goodyear (17:22):
I love that too. Everything you've said
makes me think of meditation,contemplation, prayer, and our
initial conversation was worshipin the traditional sense that
Christians talk about it.Worship music, worship teams,
confetti cannons, flyingdrummers like in the Dallas
church, at Christmas. Andthere's part of me that just I
(17:45):
admires the audacity of theconfetti cannon and the flying
drummer. So I agree with youthat we wanna aim for something
more, but sometimes, I don'tknow, maybe sometimes there is a
place for just the the wildenergy that you get, as long as
you you balance it.
Jon Guerra (18:05):
Yeah.
Marcus Goodyear (18:06):
But then I think about silence and I think
about contemplation. Do youconsider those to be forms of
worship?
Jon Guerra (18:14):
No. I, yeah. I would differentiate between those
things. First of all, to yourcomment on maybe there is a
place for it, I do think there'sa place for it. I just wonder if
the place is church.
Camille Hall-Ortega (18:25):
Yeah.
Jon Guerra (18:26):
You know? Let's have fun. My goodness. I've got a
daughter. I mean, I've justwondered what is the role of
this sacred thing that we'retrying to create together?
Camille Hall-Ortega (18:35):
Sure.
Jon Guerra (18:35):
And if confetti cannon or if the hype is
actually doing what we thinkit's supposed to be doing.
Second of all, yeah, Idifferentiate. I think, again,
contemplation, I sort of see assort of that that loving gaze.
You're sort of you're you'retrying to just dwell on grace or
love coming from a person, likea real person that you can't
(18:56):
see, that you can't taste,touch, smell, or hear audibly
physically, but is really there.It is a you know, Aquinas
defines beauty, which will behelpful for our conversation,
Aquinas defines beauty asgoodness made perceptible to the
senses.
Camille Hall-Ortega (19:14):
Oh, wow.
Jon Guerra (19:15):
So beauty has a way of making something perceptible
to us through our physicalsense, but it's making something
perceptible that isn't otherwiseperceptible through our senses.
So I think contemplation throughbeauty is very important because
we're making the love of aperson, the grace of a person,
whose God, available to us inthis way. Worship, I think, is
(19:37):
kind of this giving over of theself. I think it happens, when
we're giving even giving ourgrief, giving our pain over as
kind of a I'm giving this toyou, God. Like, this I know is
valuable to you.
I think that is worship.
Camille Hall-Ortega (19:51):
Surrender.
Jon Guerra (19:52):
That's right. Yeah.
Camille Hall-Ortega (19:55):
I love that.
Jon Guerra (19:56):
And included in that is songs of praise, songs of
adoration, words of, and then Iwould say meditation is taking
maybe a phrase or takingscripture and and really, like,
almost repeating it and andseeing if something something
becomes clearer in that, in thatfocus in that, like, very
(20:17):
particular focus.
Marcus Goodyear (20:18):
Yeah. I'll tell you something that I have found
helpful in the past year. Iagree with you about meditating
on a phrase. The Lord's prayerhas served that function for me.
Gerard Manley Hopkins poetry hasserved that function for me.
There's some other poets aswell. Reminding myself that I'm
not what I do, that I'm morethan what I do. I am, you know,
(20:41):
I'm to be a part of Christ, togo to his his poem on
Kingfishers.
Lately, though, I have found inmy silence, and I'm talking
about, like, I'm really good atthis or faithful at it, but I
have found myself trying toremove even the stories I tell
(21:01):
myself about myself, just tryingto become nothing. Not in a
sadomasochistic way, but just toto let go even of the story of
myself, even of the story thatI'm being observed by God and
and find sort of a deep silencethat I can be in or rest in. I'm
(21:22):
not quite sure what I'm aimingfor, but it's something that a
spiritual advisor challenged meto to consider. And because I
work in stories, the concept ofletting go of story fully has
been really powerful andchallenging and kind of
exciting. And, also, I don'teven know what it means to let
(21:43):
go of the story of my identity.
Jon Guerra (21:45):
That's amazing, Marcus. No. I'm that's amazing.
I resonate with that deeply.
Camille Hall-Ortega (21:52):
Jon, we have talked a lot about your
style of music and what has ledyou there. We have a a recent EP
that came out that I've beenjamming. And it feels like a
little bit of a departure.
Jon Guerra (22:12):
Yeah.
Camille Hall-Ortega (22:12):
Not in all senses, but in some ways, I
would say. And so I wanna askyou what led you there, but I
also wanna read some lyrics andwe just wanna hear more from you
on your heart for this EP. Sothese are some lyrics from the
song American Gospel. You say,"Blessed are the powerful,
(22:35):
blessed are the rich, blessedare the merciless and the
hypocrites. They will inheritthe empire's passing. It's the
American gospel. Blessed are thesuperstars, blessed are the
famous, blessed are the ones whomake their faces ageless. They
will inherit the magazine coversof the American gospel."
We wanna hear more. Tell us, howdid you land here?
Marcus Goodyear (22:57):
Amazing. Amazing.
Jon Guerra (23:02):
Yeah. Just, you know, just trying to cultivate a
space of quiet protests andpeople, I suppose.
How did I land there? My wifeand I and daughter, we were
overseas this past summer, andwe were in Greece and we were,
like, twelve hours ahead, Ithink. So we spent the majority
of the day out of the news cyclebecause really nothing was, you
(23:25):
know, it was kind of yesterday'snews our whole day. And then
around 6 or 7PM, suddenly thenew day would open up and it was
new things happening. And Ithink that separation from the
American news cycle, over thesummer, we were there for a
while. We were there for, like,two months. Kind of, number one,
gave me a different perspectiveor gave me sort of some clear
(23:46):
eyes. Two, you're right. It isdifferent. It's a bit more
topical. I didn't really set outto, oh, I wanna talk about
what's happening in Americaright now, but I'm writing this
album right now, and I'm in thegospels a lot. And, so I'm
thinking about Jesus and who Hewas and who He is and people who
(24:07):
interact with Him. And He wassuch a wild person, and He is
such a wild person, I shouldsay. And I started writing these
songs. They came out very fast.
And, American Gospelspecifically was, you know, I
first thought, well, what whatdoes Jesus have to say on the
issues? Or what whose side is hereally on here? And I realized I
(24:31):
kinda just wanted Christ tospeak for himself. But I wanted
to do it in a way that tell itslant, you know?
Marcus Goodyear (24:41):
Yes. Thank you, Emily Dickinson.
Jon Guerra (24:44):
Exactly. What is the inverse of these things? And,
once I kind of landed on thatreally first couplet, blessed
are the powerful, blessed arethe rich, I thought, well,
there's something. You don'toften hear it said that bluntly,
but in fact, Jesus is kind ofsaying the opposite, and we all
know he's saying the opposite.
Camille Hall-Ortega (25:04):
Right.
Jon Guerra (25:05):
But, maybe this will help us hear it a little bit
differently. And also wanted tosay something to people on
either side in either party. Youknow, I don't think Christ can
be claimed exclusively by anyparty.
Camille Hall-Ortega (25:22):
Right.
Jon Guerra (25:23):
He's trying to lift us out of our categories, and,
we're constantly trying to bringHim into our categories.
Marcus Goodyear (25:29):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, for me, the the challenge
is to continue to see myself inthis song. It's it's very easy
to hear it and think, oh, yeah,we're talking about those flying
drummers and confetti cannons.
Jon Guerra (25:41):
Yeah.
Marcus Goodyear (25:42):
And I need to remember that I am the powerful.
I am the rich.
Jon Guerra (25:48):
Yeah. Mhmm.
Marcus Goodyear (25:49):
I am the one who doesn't show mercy when I
should. I am the hypocrite, andI'm the one benefiting from all
this empire. I was brought upand raised on the American
gospel like a language, and Ican't not see it everywhere just
like I can't not read a sign inEnglish because I speak English.
Jon Guerra (26:10):
Yeah. That's right.
Marcus Goodyear (26:11):
And I have this this deep desire to reduce
everything to a horse race. Didmy horse win? Did that horse
win? Did my side win? Did thatside win? And I get very caught
up in this. And so the reminderat the end to take us back to
the beatitudes of the powerless,the poor, the merciful, the pure
(26:34):
in heart.
Jon Guerra (26:35):
Yeah.
Marcus Goodyear (26:35):
It it just takes us back to the kingdom of
Heaven, which is an upside downkingdom, which is not a kingdom
of this world in a way that setsus free from from the need to
lean into these politics sohard. It doesn't mean politics
have no meaning because it's away to negotiate power. We have
to figure out how to do that.
Jon Guerra (26:55):
Yeah.
Camille Hall-Ortega (26:56):
Really good.
Jon Guerra (26:56):
Man. Oh my goodness. You were so right that probably
worse than any confetti cannonis sort of self righteousness
that comes from thinking thatyou're better than the confetti
canon or something.
You know? May maybe there is somaybe there is some kind of
growth and even, like, challengeand discipline from God. It's
(27:17):
like sort of the, you know, thethe the of the confetti cannon.
Maybe maybe God's like, youknow, I'm gonna just imagine the
prophets. He's like, if you, youknow, you think you're better
than this, you're gonna spend ayear shooting off confetti
cannons every Sunday.
Camille Hall-Ortega (27:34):
Right? Right.
Jon Guerra (27:35):
Maybe that's the best thing for you.
Marcus Goodyear (27:37):
Not trying to defend the confetti cannons just
to be clear.
Jon Guerra (27:40):
No. But you're you're so right, though. That is
the worst I mean, the the veryworst possible thing is to look
with haughty eyes.
Camille Hall-Ortega (27:49):
Sure.
Jon Guerra (27:49):
Yeah. And how guilty are we of that? Certainly,
that's probably the darkestthing about our, certainly, what
happens during these electionseasons is everybody is tempted
to haughty eyes.
Marcus Goodyear (28:02):
Oh, I'm just I'm more than tempted, Jon. I
put them on.
Jon Guerra (28:05):
Exactly. Yeah.
Marcus Goodyear (28:06):
I fully embrace it.
Jon Guerra (28:07):
Wear the glasses, man. Just permanent vision.
Camille Hall-Ortega (28:10):
Right. Yes. I just want to- I loved what how
you sort of defined worship. Yousaid worship is a giving over of
ourselves, and I just thinkthat's really beautiful. And you
also just kind of tied in sowell beauty, making goodness
perceptible to the senses. Andso I think these two things just
really come together in a verymeaningful way that we can give
(28:33):
ourselves over and that beautyis so in and through that.
And it's reminding me of anarchive clip that we have.
Marcus, tell us more about it.
Marcus Goodyear (28:44):
This is from 2007. So Mark Roberts was,
director of Laity Lodge for manyyears starting right around
2007, and he also wrote forWorship Leader magazine and had
very interesting things to sayabout worship and work as
worship. And at this particularclip, he's in the Great Hall,
(29:04):
which is part of Laity Lodge,the adult retreat center run by
the H.E.Butt Foundation, andit's, in a very beautiful scenic
location, this very narrow,tight, intimate canyon.
And he's talking about therelationship between worship and
nature and our attitude towardGod.
Mark Roberts (recording) (29:26):
Most of us are folk who who love
being in natural settings. Asyou know, there are a lot of
folk in our day who kindaworship nature there and really
sort of nature is it. For us,nature is a reflection, a mirror
reflecting the beauty and theglory of of God. And so as we
drink in the beauty in a spacelike this, it's not the end just
(29:48):
to enjoy the beauty, but to letthe enjoyment of the beauty,
draw us to an enjoyment of Godand recognition of God's, God's
power, but also, God's ownbeauty reflected in creation.
Marcus Goodyear (30:05):
Jon, when you hear that we've been talking
about confetti cannons, andmaybe the problem with confetti
cannons is that they're notsufficiently beautiful. I don't
know. But talk a little bitabout this idea of beauty as a
path toward worship or as a pathtoward God. That worship is when
(30:28):
we don't just enjoy the beauty,we let that beauty guide us
toward the beauty of God, thesource of all beauty.
Jon Guerra (30:37):
Yeah. I like that. Maybe confetti cannons aren't
sufficiently beautiful. One ofthe powers of experience of
Laity Lodge is that you are kindof ensconced in beauty for three
days when you're there, for theretreats at least, and even at
the camps. Natural beauty has away of lifting us even out of
(30:59):
time.
I mean, so many trees, justthink of how long it takes for a
tree to grow. Think of how longthe sun has been rising and
setting. I think God kinda leftbeautiful things in the world as
kind of a, just a littlesignpost for us. You know? And
(31:21):
it's a signpost that that pointsand that delights for people who
recognize where it's pointing ornot. You know?
He is- what does it say inEcclesiastes? The the sun shines
on the righteous and the wicked.The rain falls on the righteous
and the wicked. And, and I havecertainly been both from day to
(31:41):
day. You know?
Camille Hall-Ortega (31:42):
Yeah.
Jon Guerra (31:43):
And I think one of the things we lose is our
ability to recognize beauty whenwhen we are both given over to
noise, given over to haughtyeyes, when we become our own
gods, when the self gets curvedin on itself is we, we lose our
ability to recognize beauty. Theexperience of beauty leaves
(32:04):
because in order to experiencebeauty, there's a little
pamphlet written by, ElaineScarry called On Beauty and
Being Just that came out abouttwenty-five years ago. And she
describes the properties ofbeauty. In one of them, she
says, "Beauty is decentering. Inorder for me to recognize the
beauty of anything, I have to befocused on that thing and not on
(32:27):
me."
Camille Hall-Ortega (32:28):
Wow.
Marcus Goodyear (32:29):
Yes.
Jon Guerra (32:29):
And when we're focused on ourselves, it's like
the first thing we lose is thebeauty of everything. You know?
It's funny. I was actually juston a retreat with Mark and Linda
Roberts at Laity Lodge, and wetalked about beauty, and we
talked about the varieties ofbeauty, actually. And another
variety of beauty is certainlythe cross. Right? That is the
(32:52):
miracle of the cross, that evenin this grotesque tragedy, love
transfigures that grotesquetragedy into the most beautiful
symbol ever.
Camille Hall-Ortega (33:08):
Jon, that's wonderful. I well, these are
just really good reminders.There it's just all really good
reminders. So thank you. Thankyou.
Thank you for sharing. I know,we're wrapping up here. You have
mentioned that you're working onsome projects. Any teasers that
you can tell us what we canexpect soon?
Jon Guerra (33:29):
Yeah. I'm working on an album with Tenielle Neda,
who's a singer songwriter fromAustralia. Beautiful voice,
beautiful writing. Anotherartist, Nick Chambers, who's
another devotional musicsongwriter from Atlanta. Amazing
songs.
I'm hard at work on my nextalbum, which is the thing that
is occupying my attention thisweek, which is another
(33:51):
devotional music album on theperson of Christ and who He is,
what He means, who He is to me.And, those are things that I'm
really looking forward to for2025.
Marcus Goodyear (34:03):
That's wonderful. We'll include links
to so many things that werereferenced in this podcast in
the notes.
Camille Hall-Ortega (34:09):
Yes. Yes. Well, thank you so much for your
time, Jon. This has been atreat. Thanks so much for
joining us.
Jon Guerra (34:16):
Thanks so much or having me.
Camille Hall-Ortega (34:17):
Of course.
Jon Guerra (34:17):
It was a delight.
Camille Hall-Ortega (34:21):
The Echoes Podcast is written and produced
by Marcus Goodyear, RobStennett, and me, Camille
Hall-Ortega. It's edited by RobStennett and Kim Stone. Our
executive producers are PattonDodd and David Rogers. Special
thanks to our guest today, JonGuerra.
The Echoes Podcast is aproduction brought to you by the
H.E.Butt Foundation. You canlearn more about our vision and
mission at hebfdn.org.
From the time I was very small, worship
was an integral part of my life.At the tiny age of three years
old, I stood in front of mygrandmother's church in Memphis,
Tennessee, a visitor no less,and sang, Jesus loves me, in
front of the congregation.Worship, this word, this
(00:25):
activity, this way of life thatcould sound so odd and foreign
for those not familiar with it,became my haven. An act of
surrender, a joyous celebration,an opportunity for gratitude,
for reminders, for community,for sharpening my musical
(00:47):
skills, for escape. Many of usspend our days bombarded by
alerts, notifications from work,social media chatter, crowded
Netflix queues, and requestsfrom loved ones. And I wonder,
in this world of hustle andbustle and busyness, where does
(01:08):
worship fit? What should it looklike? Should we view worship as
an opportunity to quiet thenoise in our lives?
Contemplation, silence,reflection, they can all be
hugely important, but is quietworship?
(01:29):
From the H.E.Butt Foundation,I'm Camille Hall-Ortega, and
this is The Echoes Podcast.
On today's episode, we'rewelcoming Jon Guerra, a
celebrated singer-songwriter whocrafts devotional music. Jon is
ranked on multiple BillboardCharts, including ones for folk
and Christian albums, and hecomposed music for the feature
(01:49):
film, A Hidden Life. He'sachieved widespread critical
acclaim, and he and his wife,Valerie, record, perform, and
offer songwriting MasterClasses.
I'm here with my co-host, MarcusGoodyear. Welcome, Jon.
Jon Guerra (02:02):
Thanks so much for having me.
Camille Hall-Ortega (02:03):
Well, as you know, we are very, very big
fans of yours and music. And weare not alone. You've a lot of
folks who are big fans, but youhave a pretty, I think, distinct
way of describing your music.You call it a collaboration with
(02:24):
quiet. What does that mean?
Jon Guerra (02:28):
Well, that means that, I like to be different,
and I like to describe music inweird ways, first of all. You
know, I'm embedded in, because Iwrite Christian music, I'm kind
of embedded in an industry thatI think has been co-opted by the
spirit of hype and loudness andvolume.
Marcus Goodyear (02:50):
Yeah.
Jon Guerra (02:50):
And what I'm trying to do with my music is cultivate
a a different kind of space.And, it's the kind of space that
I think makes us most receptiveto the voice of God and to our
own quiet, whispers and murmurs.I think sometimes we are so
(03:12):
estranged even from ourselvesthat it takes quiet to kind of
remind us what we're eventhinking about x, y, or z or how
we're even feeling about our ownlives. And so I with my music,
I'm trying to go to that placemyself, first of all, of quiet,
of silence, figure out what'sthere, and try to hear God there
(03:36):
and write music from that spaceso that hopefully when people
listen to that music, it drawsthem into that space themselves,
and maybe they can hear a littlebit of God for themselves.
Camille Hall-Ortega (03:46):
Oh, that's so good. But there was a lot
there. I'm very intrigued by alot of things. So I should tell
you, I am a worship leader andhave been a worship leader for
years. And I've got some Baptistroots, but now
nondenominational.
But I've done the small churchthing. I've done the megachurch
thing. And then obviously nowbeing a part of the H.E.Butt
(04:07):
Foundation and getting toexperience Laity Lodge, worship
music can kinda run the gamut.
And so it sounds like you'resaying we need a break from the
noise and the loud because itgives us this opportunity to
hear. But does that mean thatthere's a right way to worship
(04:27):
or a wrong way to worship? Inyour opinion, I would love to to
hear more about it.
Jon Guerra (04:31):
I do think there's a right and a wrong way to
worship. It's the soul'sattentiveness to God is the
right way. Trying to give Godwhatever we think God deserves,
whether or not we we feel thator not, I very much believe in
going through the motions. Thatthen begs the question, what
kind of motions are we goingthrough? I think there's
(04:53):
something sane about kneeling,for instance.
I think that, oh, you know, youkneel every day for a decade. I
am of the persuasion that thatdoes something to your own sense
of your position in the worldand before God. If you were to
walk into a grocery store or amall or any kind of public
(05:14):
space, most likely there's musicthat's meant to get your blood
flowing. And when we go intochurch and we hear music that
maybe you'd hear at the mall, wehear a style of music that is
also, it's it's doing the samekind of things to our humanity,
to our personhood, then it justkind of begs the question, what
exactly is the goal of of themusic? I've been a part of all
(05:38):
sorts of traditions myself.
My dad's a pastor,nondenominational church,
Hispanic church, and I was at alarger megachurch for a bunch of
years. And I do think thatpeople are meeting God and
worshiping God in those contextstoo. But as I've kind of grown
older, as I've noticed the waymy own heart and soul is
(06:04):
fatigued with noise, and I'vesort of lost my at different
periods of my life, lost myability to pay attention to
anything or lost my ability orfind myself in seasons of
depression and, disillusionment,the thing that doesn't help me
is loud hype, you know. And Ithink it's the Proverbs or
(06:25):
Psalms that say something whenthe heart is sorrowful, when the
heart is grieving, it's likethere's something bitter about
rejoicing.
And, I found both solace,comfort, healing, and
nourishment in recognizing thatI can be completely still before
God and that, number one, isenough. And number two, there's
(06:48):
actually, there's not passivitythere. There's actually activity
in being quiet and silent,especially in a world that is
seems to be constructed todistract us.
And because when we'redistracted, we spend money, and
we eat more calories, and weclick more things. And so I'm
(07:11):
just trying to kinda go againstthe grain with my music because
I think there's something inChristianity that allows us that
space and that is actually helpsus find God there.
Marcus Goodyear (07:21):
It just feels so insightful to think of church
sometimes using music to hypethe crowd. I get why you would
do that because it brings peopletogether. Right? It helps them
focus. It focuses the energy.
It gets exciting. You want themto come back. If they're
excited, they're more likely tocome back. Was there a moment
(07:42):
for you or or a season for youwhere you were in that hype mode
at one of these previouschurches and you were being
called to something different.
Jon Guerra (07:51):
Yeah. I was. I was a worship leader at a church and,
I remember there was an Easterservice where I was supposed to
let off a confetti cannon. And Idid it, and I left that I left
actually, not that one. I leftafter the fifth service. I left
(08:11):
kind of like, what in the worldis going on here?
I was kind of going through aperiod of depression. There's a
lot of stuff going on in mypersonal life with my family,
and I just felt so estrangedfrom whatever that was. And, I
studied historical theology incollege and knew about the value
(08:33):
of silence and the contemplativetradition and decided I needed
some more quiet in my life.
So I decided I was going tospend my commute in quiet. And
at the time, I was living inChicago, and I was taking the
train from the North Side to theSouth Side where my studio was.
And it was about a thirty fiveminute commute. And I started
spending that commute in insilence, like, not listening to
anything, not reading anything.City's pretty loud anyway.
(08:56):
There's the sound of the noise,but there's also the sound of of
just, you know, shuffling offeet if you're in the city with
people and there's maybe youhear the trees on it from from
my apartment to the train. Andsomething about that period... I
ended up doing that for about, Idon't know, eight or nine months
before our daughter was born,and the silence kinda began to
(09:19):
grow a little bit more. When Iwent into the studio, I wouldn't
turn on the stuff right away. Iwould kind of sit in a little
bit of quiet.
And my wife and I had been doinga little, rhythm of morning
prayer together at that time aswell, and that kind of morning
prayer felt like it began to geta little bit longer. Like, we'd
set a timer for a minute ofquiet, and then it was two
minutes and then five. And itjust was a very rich thing for
(09:40):
me. Also, I was writing my albumKeeper of Days at that time and
realizing I actually want towrite music for this space and
for cultivating this kind ofthing in people.
But that's really, I think, as asongwriter and worship leader,
frankly, I still lead worship inmy church. This is kind of what
(10:01):
I think I'm meant to contributeto the body of Christ is this
just trying to facilitatehealing for people. I think
quiet and silence is healing forall of us living in this
country, in this day and age, inthe Western world at least,
where we're just we're bathed innoise at all times.
Camille Hall-Ortega (10:17):
I love that. I think it's beautiful.
And just hearing the stories ofhow you sort of tried out these
practices that you kind of said,this doesn't feel right. This
very noisy take on thingsdoesn't feel right. And so just
trying out those practices, Ican tell how it moved you to
where you are today.
(10:38):
I'm wondering I think for a lotof people, what you're
describing can sound a bitscary.
Jon Guerra (10:44):
Yeah.
Camille Hall-Ortega (10:45):
If I'm committing to times of silence,
I don't know what that lookslike for me or means for me. Why
do you think we are sometimesafraid of that quiet and that
silence?
Jon Guerra (10:59):
Well, two things. I think we're afraid of it because
I think we're afraid of what'sthere. I think also there's a
little voice in our head that'ssaying if we don't attend to the
immediate responsibilitiesbefore us, then something's
gonna happen. The world's gonnaend. Our family's gonna end. The
bills won't get paid. Some ofthat is real. Right? Some of
that is, like, you know, there'sa lot to do as an adult, as a
(11:20):
parent, as a married person, asan employee, but that voice is
louder than it needs to be.
Marcus Goodyear (11:26):
Jon, were were you always an anti-confetti
cannon worship leader, or isthat something that that
developed? Like, in other words,like, is your desire for quiet
reflection more of a personalitytrait? Or is it something that
that has just comes naturally toyou?
Jon Guerra (11:44):
You know, there's probably something about my
personality that is more benttowards stillness and quiet, at
least at this point in my life.But when I was younger, I was
very much a believer in the sortof high impact services that a
lot of megachurches are builtaround. High impact services in
order to get people in the door,to get them feeling connected,
(12:04):
get them in a small group. Idon't think that anymore. The
confetti cannon never felt rightto me. That always just struck
me as just a little, like, Idon't know, like a caricature of
joy or something.
Yeah, just the the idea of aconfetti cannon on Easter
morning, I mean, it just it begsthe comparison between Jesus
(12:26):
coming out of the tomb andconfetti coming out of the
cannon. It just it's it's very-
I mean, so you can see thelogic. Right? It's like, we need
to celebrate this the way wecelebrate the most important
celebrations of our lives. So ifyour team is winning the Super
Bowl, what do you see at theSuper Bowl? You see confetti.
(12:46):
You see people losing theirminds.
Marcus Goodyear (12:48):
Beer. You see beer. Did you have beer at the
church?
Jon Guerra (12:50):
Yeah. It's true. No. Exactly. The problem with that,
I mean, there's so many problemswith that that I see now, but
the main thing is it I justdon't think that actually does
justice to the reality of theresurrection as we experience it
in our lives right now. Iactually think the scriptures
give evidence of what thereality is.
The resurrection was receivedfirst and foremost through
(13:12):
tears. I mean, Mary, whoreceived it, she received it
through tears, and I thinkthat's probably more the
reality. And then there was themajority of the time was spent
trying to make sense of thisthing that was unverifiable
because Jesus was gone.
Camille Hall-Ortega (13:27):
Yeah. Yeah.
Jon Guerra (13:28):
And, what we're doing in our churches and what
we have done in a lot of thosechurches has given people a
wrong expectation of what theChristian life should be and is
and what our life with God is.When you go to an Easter service
and and you hear Jesus is alive,confetti cannon, lose your mind
in joy, then when you the therug gets pulled out from
(13:48):
underneath you, you aredisillusioned, you don't feel
like the presence of God is nearyou anymore, you don't think you
believe anymore. The last placeyou want to go is the church
because you're like, "Well, thathas nothing to do with me or my
experience."
I remember there was a coupleyears where it felt like
everybody was deconstructing,everything was kind of up for
grabs.
Marcus Goodyear (14:07):
Yeah. I think we're still there, Jon.
Jon Guerra (14:09):
Maybe we're still there. Yeah. Yeah. And I think a
lot of it has more to do withpeople rejecting a version of
Christianity that doesn't makesense with their lives. And that
I bless to the stars, please. Ifthat's not you, then great. That
doesn't need to be you, but thatthat's not the totality of our
(14:29):
life with God.
Camille Hall-Ortega (14:30):
Exactly.
Jon Guerra (14:31):
When we don't give space for lament, for grief, for
silence, for contemplation, it'slike wrong salesmanship. It's
like it's the the bill of goodsis, you know, you think you're
getting one thing and then youget another, in fact. You know,
you get the dark night of thesoul. You get, doubting. You get
all these things.
Camille Hall-Ortega (14:47):
Then you go, why don't why don't I feel
like popping a confetti cannonlike these other people?
Jon Guerra (14:51):
That's right. And and maybe this isn't for me.
Maybe I'm not saying, oh, mygoodness. How many of us have
felt estranged by being atchurch, you know, when that
happens?
Camille Hall-Ortega (14:59):
I just love the the thought of these
practices of quieting the mindand quieting the space and the
noise just kind of allowing itto dissipate. I find myself even
just even just in times of like,kind of wanting to close close a
chapter or complete something,even in simple ways. You know, I
(15:20):
have a commute, I commute fromSan Antonio to Kurville for
work. And so I listen to a lotof audiobooks and when I finish
an audiobook, I just amcommitted to, on the next ride
home, I'll just be silent.
Right? Like, it's just likemoment of completion. Like, I've
had however many hours of anaudiobook of noise on my
(15:42):
commute. And now as a kind ofspace between, I'll just have
these moment this time ofsilence to kind of say, like,
I've completed something, andI'll start something anew. And
so I'll give some space there.
Jon Guerra (15:55):
Yeah.
Camille Hall-Ortega (15:55):
But not everybody's lives look like a
long commute. And so if thereare the folks that say, okay, I
buy what you're saying, I'mhearing you. There is value in
silence. There's value in thissort of intentional seeking of
peace and of quiet. And I knowthat God values this, but my
(16:16):
life doesn't really look likethat. I've got these kids or
I've got this fast moving job orwhere do they start? What would
you say is for someone who'slike, that's gonna be really
difficult for me, but I do buyin. What's a first step?
Jon Guerra (16:32):
I mean, I think the first step is, really having a
mindset shift of what kind ofcreature you think you really
are.
Camille Hall-Ortega (16:42):
Mhmm.
Jon Guerra (16:43):
We spend the majority of our lives doing
things, but we weren't firstmade doers. We were made to be.
We are beings. And quiet andcontemplation isn't just the
absence of doing. It's the it'sthe presence of being.
It's the presence of... it'smaking yourself aware daily that
(17:06):
you are a creature loved by Godinfinitely with infinite value.
John Mark Comer, I love. Hesays, "Contemplation is simply
spending time imagining Godlooking at you with a smile and
looking at you lovingly."
Marcus Goodyear (17:22):
I love that too. Everything you've said
makes me think of meditation,contemplation, prayer, and our
initial conversation was worshipin the traditional sense that
Christians talk about it.Worship music, worship teams,
confetti cannons, flyingdrummers like in the Dallas
church, at Christmas. Andthere's part of me that just I
(17:45):
admires the audacity of theconfetti cannon and the flying
drummer. So I agree with youthat we wanna aim for something
more, but sometimes, I don'tknow, maybe sometimes there is a
place for just the the wildenergy that you get, as long as
you you balance it.
Jon Guerra (18:05):
Yeah.
Marcus Goodyear (18:06):
But then I think about silence and I think
about contemplation. Do youconsider those to be forms of
worship?
Jon Guerra (18:14):
No. I, yeah. I would differentiate between those
things. First of all, to yourcomment on maybe there is a
place for it, I do think there'sa place for it. I just wonder if
the place is church.
Camille Hall-Ortega (18:25):
Yeah.
Jon Guerra (18:26):
You know? Let's have fun. My goodness. I've got a
daughter. I mean, I've justwondered what is the role of
this sacred thing that we'retrying to create together?
Camille Hall-Ortega (18:35):
Sure.
Jon Guerra (18:35):
And if confetti cannon or if the hype is
actually doing what we thinkit's supposed to be doing.
Second of all, yeah, Idifferentiate. I think, again,
contemplation, I sort of see assort of that that loving gaze.
You're sort of you're you'retrying to just dwell on grace or
love coming from a person, likea real person that you can't
(18:56):
see, that you can't taste,touch, smell, or hear audibly
physically, but is really there.It is a you know, Aquinas
defines beauty, which will behelpful for our conversation,
Aquinas defines beauty asgoodness made perceptible to the
senses.
Camille Hall-Ortega (19:14):
Oh, wow.
Jon Guerra (19:15):
So beauty has a way of making something perceptible
to us through our physicalsense, but it's making something
perceptible that isn't otherwiseperceptible through our senses.
So I think contemplation throughbeauty is very important because
we're making the love of aperson, the grace of a person,
whose God, available to us inthis way. Worship, I think, is
(19:37):
kind of this giving over of theself. I think it happens, when
we're giving even giving ourgrief, giving our pain over as
kind of a I'm giving this toyou, God. Like, this I know is
valuable to you.
I think that is worship.
Camille Hall-Ortega (19:51):
Surrender.
Jon Guerra (19:52):
That's right. Yeah.
Camille Hall-Ortega (19:55):
I love that.
Jon Guerra (19:56):
And included in that is songs of praise, songs of
adoration, words of, and then Iwould say meditation is taking
maybe a phrase or takingscripture and and really, like,
almost repeating it and andseeing if something something
becomes clearer in that, in thatfocus in that, like, very
(20:17):
particular focus.
Marcus Goodyear (20:18):
Yeah. I'll tell you something that I have found
helpful in the past year. Iagree with you about meditating
on a phrase. The Lord's prayerhas served that function for me.
Gerard Manley Hopkins poetry hasserved that function for me.
There's some other poets aswell. Reminding myself that I'm
not what I do, that I'm morethan what I do. I am, you know,
(20:41):
I'm to be a part of Christ, togo to his his poem on
Kingfishers.
Lately, though, I have found inmy silence, and I'm talking
about, like, I'm really good atthis or faithful at it, but I
have found myself trying toremove even the stories I tell
(21:01):
myself about myself, just tryingto become nothing. Not in a
sadomasochistic way, but just toto let go even of the story of
myself, even of the story thatI'm being observed by God and
and find sort of a deep silencethat I can be in or rest in. I'm
(21:22):
not quite sure what I'm aimingfor, but it's something that a
spiritual advisor challenged meto to consider. And because I
work in stories, the concept ofletting go of story fully has
been really powerful andchallenging and kind of
exciting. And, also, I don'teven know what it means to let
(21:43):
go of the story of my identity.
Jon Guerra (21:45):
That's amazing, Marcus. No. I'm that's amazing.
I resonate with that deeply.
Camille Hall-Ortega (21:52):
Jon, we have talked a lot about your
style of music and what has ledyou there. We have a a recent EP
that came out that I've beenjamming. And it feels like a
little bit of a departure.
Jon Guerra (22:12):
Yeah.
Camille Hall-Ortega (22:12):
Not in all senses, but in some ways, I
would say. And so I wanna askyou what led you there, but I
also wanna read some lyrics andwe just wanna hear more from you
on your heart for this EP. Sothese are some lyrics from the
song American Gospel. You say,"Blessed are the powerful,
(22:35):
blessed are the rich, blessedare the merciless and the
hypocrites. They will inheritthe empire's passing. It's the
American gospel. Blessed are thesuperstars, blessed are the
famous, blessed are the ones whomake their faces ageless. They
will inherit the magazine coversof the American gospel."
We wanna hear more. Tell us, howdid you land here?
Marcus Goodyear (22:57):
Amazing. Amazing.
Jon Guerra (23:02):
Yeah. Just, you know, just trying to cultivate a
space of quiet protests andpeople, I suppose.
How did I land there? My wifeand I and daughter, we were
overseas this past summer, andwe were in Greece and we were,
like, twelve hours ahead, Ithink. So we spent the majority
of the day out of the news cyclebecause really nothing was, you
(23:25):
know, it was kind of yesterday'snews our whole day. And then
around 6 or 7PM, suddenly thenew day would open up and it was
new things happening. And Ithink that separation from the
American news cycle, over thesummer, we were there for a
while. We were there for, like,two months. Kind of, number one,
gave me a different perspectiveor gave me sort of some clear
(23:46):
eyes. Two, you're right. It isdifferent. It's a bit more
topical. I didn't really set outto, oh, I wanna talk about
what's happening in Americaright now, but I'm writing this
album right now, and I'm in thegospels a lot. And, so I'm
thinking about Jesus and who Hewas and who He is and people who
(24:07):
interact with Him. And He wassuch a wild person, and He is
such a wild person, I shouldsay. And I started writing these
songs. They came out very fast.
And, American Gospelspecifically was, you know, I
first thought, well, what whatdoes Jesus have to say on the
issues? Or what whose side is hereally on here? And I realized I
(24:31):
kinda just wanted Christ tospeak for himself. But I wanted
to do it in a way that tell itslant, you know?
Marcus Goodyear (24:41):
Yes. Thank you, Emily Dickinson.
Jon Guerra (24:44):
Exactly. What is the inverse of these things? And,
once I kind of landed on thatreally first couplet, blessed
are the powerful, blessed arethe rich, I thought, well,
there's something. You don'toften hear it said that bluntly,
but in fact, Jesus is kind ofsaying the opposite, and we all
know he's saying the opposite.
Camille Hall-Ortega (25:04):
Right.
Jon Guerra (25:05):
But, maybe this will help us hear it a little bit
differently. And also wanted tosay something to people on
either side in either party. Youknow, I don't think Christ can
be claimed exclusively by anyparty.
Camille Hall-Ortega (25:22):
Right.
Jon Guerra (25:23):
He's trying to lift us out of our categories, and,
we're constantly trying to bringHim into our categories.
Marcus Goodyear (25:29):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, for me, the the challenge
is to continue to see myself inthis song. It's it's very easy
to hear it and think, oh, yeah,we're talking about those flying
drummers and confetti cannons.
Jon Guerra (25:41):
Yeah.
Marcus Goodyear (25:42):
And I need to remember that I am the powerful.
I am the rich.
Jon Guerra (25:48):
Yeah. Mhmm.
Marcus Goodyear (25:49):
I am the one who doesn't show mercy when I
should. I am the hypocrite, andI'm the one benefiting from all
this empire. I was brought upand raised on the American
gospel like a language, and Ican't not see it everywhere just
like I can't not read a sign inEnglish because I speak English.
Jon Guerra (26:10):
Yeah. That's right.
Marcus Goodyear (26:11):
And I have this this deep desire to reduce
everything to a horse race. Didmy horse win? Did that horse
win? Did my side win? Did thatside win? And I get very caught
up in this. And so the reminderat the end to take us back to
the beatitudes of the powerless,the poor, the merciful, the pure
(26:34):
in heart.
Jon Guerra (26:35):
Yeah.
Marcus Goodyear (26:35):
It it just takes us back to the kingdom of
Heaven, which is an upside downkingdom, which is not a kingdom
of this world in a way that setsus free from from the need to
lean into these politics sohard. It doesn't mean politics
have no meaning because it's away to negotiate power. We have
to figure out how to do that.
Jon Guerra (26:55):
Yeah.
Camille Hall-Ortega (26:56):
Really good.
Jon Guerra (26:56):
Man. Oh my goodness. You were so right that probably
worse than any confetti cannonis sort of self righteousness
that comes from thinking thatyou're better than the confetti
canon or something.
You know? May maybe there is somaybe there is some kind of
growth and even, like, challengeand discipline from God. It's
(27:17):
like sort of the, you know, thethe the of the confetti cannon.
Maybe maybe God's like, youknow, I'm gonna just imagine the
prophets. He's like, if you, youknow, you think you're better
than this, you're gonna spend ayear shooting off confetti
cannons every Sunday.
Camille Hall-Ortega (27:34):
Right? Right.
Jon Guerra (27:35):
Maybe that's the best thing for you.
Marcus Goodyear (27:37):
Not trying to defend the confetti cannons just
to be clear.
Jon Guerra (27:40):
No. But you're you're so right, though. That is
the worst I mean, the the veryworst possible thing is to look
with haughty eyes.
Camille Hall-Ortega (27:49):
Sure.
Jon Guerra (27:49):
Yeah. And how guilty are we of that? Certainly,
that's probably the darkestthing about our, certainly, what
happens during these electionseasons is everybody is tempted
to haughty eyes.
Marcus Goodyear (28:02):
Oh, I'm just I'm more than tempted, Jon. I
put them on.
Jon Guerra (28:05):
Exactly. Yeah.
Marcus Goodyear (28:06):
I fully embrace it.
Jon Guerra (28:07):
Wear the glasses, man. Just permanent vision.
Camille Hall-Ortega (28:10):
Right. Yes. I just want to- I loved what how
you sort of defined worship. Yousaid worship is a giving over of
ourselves, and I just thinkthat's really beautiful. And you
also just kind of tied in sowell beauty, making goodness
perceptible to the senses. Andso I think these two things just
really come together in a verymeaningful way that we can give
(28:33):
ourselves over and that beautyis so in and through that.
And it's reminding me of anarchive clip that we have.
Marcus, tell us more about it.
Marcus Goodyear (28:44):
This is from 2007. So Mark Roberts was,
director of Laity Lodge for manyyears starting right around
2007, and he also wrote forWorship Leader magazine and had
very interesting things to sayabout worship and work as
worship. And at this particularclip, he's in the Great Hall,
(29:04):
which is part of Laity Lodge,the adult retreat center run by
the H.E.Butt Foundation, andit's, in a very beautiful scenic
location, this very narrow,tight, intimate canyon.
And he's talking about therelationship between worship and
nature and our attitude towardGod.
Mark Roberts (recording) (29:26):
Most of us are folk who who love
being in natural settings. Asyou know, there are a lot of
folk in our day who kindaworship nature there and really
sort of nature is it. For us,nature is a reflection, a mirror
reflecting the beauty and theglory of of God. And so as we
drink in the beauty in a spacelike this, it's not the end just
(29:48):
to enjoy the beauty, but to letthe enjoyment of the beauty,
draw us to an enjoyment of Godand recognition of God's, God's
power, but also, God's ownbeauty reflected in creation.
Marcus Goodyear (30:05):
Jon, when you hear that we've been talking
about confetti cannons, andmaybe the problem with confetti
cannons is that they're notsufficiently beautiful. I don't
know. But talk a little bitabout this idea of beauty as a
path toward worship or as a pathtoward God. That worship is when
(30:28):
we don't just enjoy the beauty,we let that beauty guide us
toward the beauty of God, thesource of all beauty.
Jon Guerra (30:37):
Yeah. I like that. Maybe confetti cannons aren't
sufficiently beautiful. One ofthe powers of experience of
Laity Lodge is that you are kindof ensconced in beauty for three
days when you're there, for theretreats at least, and even at
the camps. Natural beauty has away of lifting us even out of
(30:59):
time.
I mean, so many trees, justthink of how long it takes for a
tree to grow. Think of how longthe sun has been rising and
setting. I think God kinda leftbeautiful things in the world as
kind of a, just a littlesignpost for us. You know? And
(31:21):
it's a signpost that that pointsand that delights for people who
recognize where it's pointing ornot. You know?
He is- what does it say inEcclesiastes? The the sun shines
on the righteous and the wicked.The rain falls on the righteous
and the wicked. And, and I havecertainly been both from day to
(31:41):
day. You know?
Camille Hall-Ortega (31:42):
Yeah.
Jon Guerra (31:43):
And I think one of the things we lose is our
ability to recognize beauty whenwhen we are both given over to
noise, given over to haughtyeyes, when we become our own
gods, when the self gets curvedin on itself is we, we lose our
ability to recognize beauty. Theexperience of beauty leaves
(32:04):
because in order to experiencebeauty, there's a little
pamphlet written by, ElaineScarry called On Beauty and
Being Just that came out abouttwenty-five years ago. And she
describes the properties ofbeauty. In one of them, she
says, "Beauty is decentering. Inorder for me to recognize the
beauty of anything, I have to befocused on that thing and not on
(32:27):
me."
Camille Hall-Ortega (32:28):
Wow.
Marcus Goodyear (32:29):
Yes.
Jon Guerra (32:29):
And when we're focused on ourselves, it's like
the first thing we lose is thebeauty of everything. You know?
It's funny. I was actually juston a retreat with Mark and Linda
Roberts at Laity Lodge, and wetalked about beauty, and we
talked about the varieties ofbeauty, actually. And another
variety of beauty is certainlythe cross. Right? That is the
(32:52):
miracle of the cross, that evenin this grotesque tragedy, love
transfigures that grotesquetragedy into the most beautiful
symbol ever.
Camille Hall-Ortega (33:08):
Jon, that's wonderful. I well, these are
just really good reminders.There it's just all really good
reminders. So thank you. Thankyou.
Thank you for sharing. I know,we're wrapping up here. You have
mentioned that you're working onsome projects. Any teasers that
you can tell us what we canexpect soon?
Jon Guerra (33:29):
Yeah. I'm working on an album with Tenielle Neda,
who's a singer songwriter fromAustralia. Beautiful voice,
beautiful writing. Anotherartist, Nick Chambers, who's
another devotional musicsongwriter from Atlanta. Amazing
songs.
I'm hard at work on my nextalbum, which is the thing that
is occupying my attention thisweek, which is another
(33:51):
devotional music album on theperson of Christ and who He is,
what He means, who He is to me.And, those are things that I'm
really looking forward to for2025.
Marcus Goodyear (34:03):
That's wonderful. We'll include links
to so many things that werereferenced in this podcast in
the notes.
Camille Hall-Ortega (34:09):
Yes. Yes. Well, thank you so much for your
time, Jon. This has been atreat. Thanks so much for
joining us.
Jon Guerra (34:16):
Thanks so much or having me.
Camille Hall-Ortega (34:17):
Of course.
Jon Guerra (34:17):
It was a delight.
Camille Hall-Ortega (34:21):
The Echoes Podcast is written and produced
by Marcus Goodyear, RobStennett, and me, Camille
Hall-Ortega. It's edited by RobStennett and Kim Stone. Our
executive producers are PattonDodd and David Rogers. Special
thanks to our guest today, JonGuerra.
The Echoes Podcast is aproduction brought to you by the
H.E.Butt Foundation. You canlearn more about our vision and
mission at hebfdn.org.
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