Faith and Justice | With Sister Pearl Ceasar - The Echoes Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Marcus Goodyear (00:00):
What comes to mind when you hear that someone
is a community organizer? Youmight imagine political rallies
or marches or protests or peoplestanding with signs in front of
the city hall. I doubt you wouldimagine a nonpartisan nun in her
eighties. I doubt you wouldimagine Sister Pearl Ceasar.

(00:23):
She's the former SuperiorGeneral of the Sisters of Divine
Providence in San Antonio. "Thatmeans I was the head nun," she
said at the H.E.ButtFoundation's presidential
luncheon in 2024. Being a headnun is a lot more than
cloistered prayer. Sister Pearlis active. She started off as a
school teacher in the 1960s andshe was very disturbed by the
inequal opportunities that werepresented to students. In one

(00:44):
instance, her school district'sboard took money raised for new
books by the black school inwhich she taught and gave it to
the white school. The whiteschool then bought new textbooks
and the black school receivedthe white school's eight year
old textbooks. And Sister Pearllearned that life is not fair.
She also knew that problems likethese don't go away on their
own.
Being a nun had to mean morethan teaching school and saying

(01:06):
prayers, and she wondered howcan society change? How can
everyone have a fair shot? Thosequestions led her to become a
nonpartisan community organizerfor the next forty years. In San
Antonio, she gathered people offaith into a coalition called
Communities Organized for PublicService, or COPS for short. The
parish leaders organized forbetter schools, quality housing,

(01:28):
accessible health care, safeneighborhoods, living wages, and
adequate drainage.
I'm Marcus Goodyear from theH.E.Butt Foundation. This is The
Echoes Podcast. On today'sepisode, we welcome our guest,
Sister Pearl Ceasar.
Sister Pearl understands what itlooks like when a community
works hard. And more than that,she understands how to organize
communities, inspire leaders,empower them to create

(01:50):
institutions that work. Today,we're talking about community
organizing. I'm here with myco-host Camille Hall-Ortega.Hull

Camille Hall-Ortega (01:57):
Hi Marcus, how's it going?

It's good, welcome.

Sister Pearl Ceasar (02:01):
And hello Marcus and Camille.

Yes, thank you. Welcome, we're so glad you're
here. Sister Pearl, I've justshared some of your story, and
I'd love to hear it in your ownwords. Starting at the beginning
with your early work ineducation, could you talk about
your first two teaching jobs?

Yes. Thank you. In 1965, I was assigned to
a white middle class school inTulsa, Oklahoma. I had 40 1st
graders in my class.

Whoa.

That sounds that sounds rough.

It was. I thought it was gonna be rough.
But at least half of thosechildren came to school reading
because they had an incredibly,good foundation from their
kindergarten, from theirpreschool, from their families.
Then I was assigned to an allblack public school in

(03:03):
Louisiana, and I taught theretwo years. Well, I got there,
and the other sister and me werethe only two white teachers in
the school.
And the reason that the publicschools wanted to hire us as
teachers is the public schoolscountywide were integrating, and

(03:26):
this school was integrating. Andthey were concerned they were
going to have some issues. Andthey thought if they had two
sisters there, it would help andease the transition into
integration.

They were a little late, right?

Yes, Very late.

Okay.

Yeah. Very late. But it was a rural area.

Yeah. Okay.

And that, I think that accounted for it. So
I learned I was going to havefirst and second grade because
they had they couldn't figure itout. They, that just was the way
my class was gonna beconfigured.

Sure. Sure.

I had 25 children in first and second
grade. So I thought this isgonna be a cakewalk. I mean
going from 40 to 25. That'ssubstantial, especially in a
primary grade. So I get therethe first day and I learn as I
meet the children that I hadthree boys and I would say their

(04:30):
name, but I don't think I wannado this publicly.
All three were 12 years old andin second grade, and all three
of them could not read. I mean,not read a word because they
were all children of theplantation workers. They lived
in the fields. And when itrained, the school buses

(04:54):
couldn't get to their homes, sothey would miss school. They
didn't have a way to get toschool. And that's why they were
12 years old in second grade andnot reading. Well, the three
boys and I struggled all year interms of learning to read. And
by the end of the year, theywere reading.

Oh my goodness.

You know, I was determined they were gonna
read.

I love it.

I think just, you know, someone having
that kind of interest in themmotivated them to learn to read.
But I was just literallybothered all year remembering
and comparing the students I hadin Tulsa, Oklahoma, where it was
never considered that anyonewould repeat first grade nor did

(05:41):
I have to send anyone back tokindergarten. And the unjustice
between that group and theAfrican American group that I
had in Louisiana. And I thoughttheir lives are gonna be so
difficult. It's not just aquestion of completing
elementary school, high school.It's the rest of their life that

(06:04):
they're gonna struggle.

Wow. And you're you're speaking, of
course, just from your personalexperience with your class. Did
you see the same problemsthroughout the school and in
other schools in that community?

Absolutely. Because the other sister, taught
sixth grade, and she had, I willsay, more issues than I did with
the sixth graders. And then somany of the elementary, those
who graduated from eighth gradenever went to high school. They
just went to work in the fieldswith their parents. And it was

(06:40):
at that school in the secondyear that the principal, he was
an outstanding man. And he, Imean, he tried his best. All the
teachers were great and they alltried their best, but it was the
outside circumstances workingagainst us.
So he came to us and he said,our textbooks, especially for

(07:01):
the upper grades were out ofdate. They were ten year old
textbooks because they alwaysgot the old textbooks from the
white schools. And he said tous, will you work with me to
raise money to buy newtextbooks, especially for the
upper grades? And we said yes.

(07:23):
So the way we did it, and we allagreed to do it, was we would
save money in the cafeteria.That would be one of the major
ways. And we ate, literally aterice and beans the whole year.
That's how we save money. I didnot know there were that many
variations of beans. I mean, weate black beans, lima beans, red

(07:50):
beans, green bean, every kind ofbean there was.

Wow.

The whole year. And that's how we saved
our money to buy the new books.Well, it got to the end of the
year, and we had our money. Wewere ready to buy the new books.
And he came back to us and hesaid, We're not getting new
books. And as teachers, we wereshocked. We said, Why? What
happened? He said, Well, Italked to the superintendent,

(08:17):
I told him we had raised thismoney to buy our new books. He
talked to the school board, andthe school board said, No, we're
not doing that. We are buyingnew books for the white school,
you know, one of the whiteschools, and they will get their
old books. So we got eight yearold old books after eating rice

(08:41):
and beans all year, and thewhite schools got the new books.
That just sealed it for me.Meaning, I just I that just put
the-

Spurred you on.

Spurred me on. Yeah. Exactly. I thought
this is not a fair system. Icould stay there the rest of my
life, and I would not be able tochange anything. I understood
that. I was only, what, twentyfive, twenty six. I understood I
would not be able to changeanything because it wasn't just

(09:15):
the system. It was the fact thatI never met a parent, not
because of them, but just it wasjust the way it was set up. I
never met a parent. I didn'tknow where they lived, how to
contact them, anything likethat, because they were out in
these fields. And I thought, no,I'd like to stay there and

(09:37):
teach, but I thought, no. Icould stay there again for the
rest of my life and nothingwould change. So I left.

You are seeing this injustice. It
clearly burned your heart. Youtried to to help with it, and it
brought about more injustice foryou to see. Right?

Exactly.

For a lot of people, they would be deeply
discouraged by that. As we heardin our introduction, it really
did spur you on. Marcus, I'mcurious because you too were a a
teacher in a public school. Didyou have any experiences where
you thought, oh, this isn'tright. What am I gonna do about
this?

Yes, for sure I did. For sure I did. I learned
later that I had been teachingin a very privileged school, in
fact. Towards the later part ofmy career, I began to really
believe students needed to hearfrom writers and authors
directly. They were experiencingart on the page and they weren't
experiencing it in communitywith the creators.

(10:40):
And so I started partnering withGemini Ink, outside of San
Antonio to bring the poets thatwould come to Gemini Ink for
special events to our classroom.So we would raise money with
like sausage sales and stuff andthen we would donate that money
to Gemini Ink. And they wouldpass along a little bit to the
artist and the artist would comeand do like a little one hour
workshop. We would bring peoplefrom the community.

(11:02):
We did that a couple of times,and then I realized that what I
was essentially doing waspouring enrichment into the
wealthiest community, which youwant to enrich everybody that
you can. But I began shift mythinking to say, how can I reach
beyond this community with thecommunity? And so we started

(11:23):
then sending those poets andwriters to the Krier Juvenile
Detention Center in South SanAntonio.

Woah.

And then our students would take a bus and go
through security, you know, fullbody search. And then we would
have a writing workshopalongside students in juvenile
detention. And even that was farfrom perfect because there was
this really uncomfortable powerdynamic that we brought in. It

(11:51):
felt like we were tourists intotheir in some ways. And yet at
the same time it was a way totry to share in community beyond
our own privilege.
Sister Pearl, you somehow wentfrom this feeling of
powerlessness to communityorganizing and activism.

Yeah.

And I would just wanna hear you talk about
what does it mean to be spurredon to to that bigger vision? And
how did you land on communityactivism or community
organizing?

Well, I went to social work school
thinking if I became a socialworker and they had a community
organizing track in social work,and I I was so naive. But I
thought if I take that, then Ican do community organizing. But
in the second year of, socialwork school, I learned of a

(12:46):
national sisters lobbying groupcalled Network in Washington DC,
and I did my placement there.And I thought, oh, community
organizing isn't the way. Thisis the way.
You know, work at the nationallevel with, we were able to get
some laws changed. They werefairly effective. But what

(13:10):
happened there was I thought, Iam so separated from the local
community. We are literallydoing for people, and we're
bringing about the change wethink they need, but we had no
relationship to the poorercommunities. And I say this

(13:32):
quite seriously, as God wouldhave it, I got very ill there
and had to come back to SanAntonio because of the illness
and was not able to return toWashington, which was truly a
grace from God. And when I gotback here, the sisters were
talking about COPS, CommunityOrganized for Public Service.

Yes.

And COPS was two years old. COPS formed
in '74, and I got here in '76.

Wow. Okay. What I'm realizing is that we're
talking about communityorganizing, but for some people,
they don't know what communityorganizing means, or maybe they
think they do, and they mighthave a different idea of what it
means than perhaps how we'retalking about it today. Can you
help us define what communityorganizing is?

Sure. I'd be happy to. I organize and this
is the long story, not the shortstory.

Please. That's what we're looking for
here.

I organized, with a group called
the Industrial Areas Foundation.That group was formed by Saul
Alinsky, who is the communityorganizer that's probably most
well done in The United States.But he started community
organizing as we know it todayin Chicago. But the way he did

(14:57):
it was he knew it needed to beinstitutionally based, meaning
out of churches, schools, laborunion. And so he brought those
groups together, and that's whatwe do.
We bring groups together, notjust individuals. Because his
insight was the issues ourcountry face are so large. We

(15:25):
need groups involved for thelong term. It's not gonna work
with individuals involved whowill come and go. Problems are
too big for that.
Now the first thing you have todo are, individual meetings.
First, get to know them a littlebit about their background, and

(15:46):
then talk to them. What do yousee as the major needs in this
area? One of them was a mannamed Pedro Guerrero, and he
lived on Potosi Street. So Isaid to Mister Guerrero, what do
you see as the major needs inthis area?
He said, drainage. We don't haveany drainage system here. And he

(16:08):
said, so when it rains hard, ourhouses flood. And he said, my
neighbor drowned in her bed whenit rained because she couldn't
get out of her house fastenough. I was just I was just
shocked. I said, what'd you do?He said, nothing. We can't do

(16:30):
anything. Nothing changes. But Iheard story after story like
that, and I thought, oh, this isthis is where I want to be.
This is where God is calling meto be. To answer your question
more directly, communityorganizing as we do it is

(16:51):
institutional organizing basedon relationships in the
community where people in thecommunity, in those institutions
define their issues. Like, wedon't come in and say, you know,
we need to do this, this. Theydefine the issues, and the
relationships are then formedamong them so that the

(17:15):
organization has power tochange. Power to change. And
we're not afraid of that word atall.

Yes. Yeah.

Which word? Power or change?

Power. Real good, Marcus. Either one. Power
or change. That's a goodinsight, Marcus. And both of
those have to be present forsomething to be different. Power
and change.

So that all makes sense on a level, although
I honestly still have troubleimagining what it looks like as
a job. In my mind, communityorganizing is associated with
partisan politics. I think thefirst time I heard the phrase
was the description of apresidential candidate who had
gotten his start in communityorganizing. And I imagine people

(18:04):
in my small town hearing aboutcommunity organizing and maybe
thinking you're aligned with aspecific political party,
especially when you talk aboutpower because politics is the
negotiation of power. So howwould you how would you talk to
somebody about the role ofpolitics in community
organizing? How do you walk thatline?

Well, the first thing that we would tell
them, I mean, straight out is weare nonpartisan. I mean, we are,
if one can be activelynonpartisan, we are actively
nonpartisan. We support noparty. And if one of our leaders
in the organization wants to runfor political office, they have

(18:46):
to leave the organizationbecause we don't support
candidates. We don't supportparties.
We do a session on the kind ofpolitics, if you will, we want
to create as contrasted to theway politics is. For example,
politics today is centeredaround candidates. Our politics

(19:11):
is centered around the communityand what issues the community
sees that needs to change. Likein San Antonio, it was drainage.
It was education. It wasworkforce development. No
politician came to us and said,we need to change this. We, the

(19:32):
organization, went to them andsaid, these are the changes we
want to see.

So it really sounds like, sister
Pearl, that many folks, myselfincluded, what Marcus was just
saying, that we kind of imaginecommunity organizing as
necessarily entangled withpolitics. And on the one hand,
you're saying, no. It it reallydoesn't start that way. But
perhaps your efforts in thatcommunity organizing sphere can

(20:01):
lead to, some of your solutionsinvolve politics because they
involve community leaders thatare in in politics.

Definitely. And, you know, this year in San
Antonio, we're having a mayoralelection and city council
election. So one of the thingsthat you will see and hear about
with COPS Metro is they will behaving what we call
accountability sessions with thecandidates.

Oh, I love that.

That sounds fun.

Again, it's going to be politics as it
should be. Meaning, thepoliticians don't talk, the
people talk. And then they willask for a commitment from the
politician. If you are elected,will you do such and such? And
sometimes it is as simple as ayes or no answer, and that's all

(20:53):
they get to say. Yes or no. And,you know, facing that many
people, six, seven, eighthundred people, they'll say yes.
And then afterwards, theorganization will follow-up with
them.

We've been talking a lot about community
organizing, but I know that yourcommunity organizing really
comes from your faith. And westarted with that in a sense
indirectly because as a nun, youwere a teacher. As a nun, you
went on to become a socialworker. And as a nun, you're
talking to us today. Can youtalk more about the relationship
between your faith and thiseffort and this work?

Yes. Thank you. My spirituality, if you
will, has always been based onthe Scriptures. Literally, by
the grace of God, I had verygood Scripture courses in
college. We had not had to, butwe were encouraged to major in

(21:49):
theology, so I did. But thattheology was based in Scripture
and looking at the life of Jesusin terms of we are to become
like Jesus. And so what alwaysstruck me about the Scriptures
is, you know, Jesus doesn't layout just a lot of rules for us.

(22:12):
He didn't give us the 10commandments. When he was asked
what's the most importantcommandment, he said to love God
with all your heart, with allyour soul, with everything you
have. And the second is justlike it. Love your neighbor as
yourself. And that always thatjust always struck me and stayed

(22:35):
with me. Love your neighbor asyourself. I grew up in a
segregated Louisiana, and thatformed me. The fact that I went
to an all white, Catholic schooland the fact that the black the
African Americans had their ownschool, Catholic school, but it

(22:55):
was segregated, all black. Butour sisters, the Sisters of
Divine Providence who taught mein Louisiana, were very smart.
What they did, they would invitethe all black Catholic school to
come and to our gym inAlexandria, Louisiana and

(23:18):
perform for us because thesisters uh-huh. The sisters
would tell us, which was true,they have the best choir in the
state. They have won first placein state competitions, and we
want to you to hear themperform.

(23:38):
Well, we had a choir, but wedidn't win any state
competitions. And so my questionwhen they would come or my
insight was, you know, I havebeen taught informally that
whites are superior to blacks.But if they can sing better than

(24:00):
us, if they can win all thesecompetitions and we don't, there
is something not right aboutthis. And if they are better in
singing, what else are theybetter than us in?

So you're working your whole life
organizing these communities,listening to people's problems,
trying to do power analysis,like you said, to decide which
area of the community can beginto address the problems.
Sometimes that's politics,sometimes it's not. And all the
time you move forward two steps,you move back one step, you move

(24:40):
forward two steps, you move backthree steps. How do you do this
work and remain hopeful? How doyou do this work and not have a
sense of frustration by the theslow progress and the just
constant battle to preventbacksliding?

Well, for me, what I keep in mind is we
wouldn't have moved at all if ithadn't been for the
organizations. And so, you know,what what's the alternative? I
don't see an alternative Yeah.Except through the organizations
we've built. And even thoughit's you know, we'll be moving

(25:17):
back, as you say, a step or two,but I don't know what the
alternative is. I I haven't seenanything or anybody be able to
permanently hold something inplace.

Sister Pearl, you you talked about
something that that reminded meof a a quote I read from you. I
think a reporter wasinterviewing you perhaps or or
someone for an article, and theymust have asked you, what are
your plans? What are what arethe big things that you're
planning to do as as you're theleader? And you said that the
first thing you wanted to do wasmeet with each of the sisters to

(25:54):
see where their energies are.And I loved that quote from you.
You went on to talk about howthat's what's important, that
any leader should have a pulseon the people he or she is
leading. And you talked about asermon that you had heard where
the the sentiment was, if you'rea leader and you look behind you

(26:16):
and then there's no onefollowing, then you're just a
fool.

You're you're just out for a walk.

Yes. You're just a fool out for a walk.
Right. Can you talk more aboutthat? Because that's what I'm
seeing here from you as athrough line, that the the
importance of having a pulse onneighborhood or community or
anyone that you are leading orhoping to help, lead folks to
change.

What I have learned in organizing, and I'm
very grateful for, is when youcan tap into people's energies
and their interests, then theywill do what they need to do.
And then you know what you cantalk to them about in terms of

(27:02):
how to direct their energies,how to focus it, who else is
interested in the same thing.Because a lot of times we think
we're out there by ourselves,and we don't know that other
people have the same issues andwant to do something about it.

Mhmm.

And then, you know, it's connecting all
the people with the sameinterest and then moving that
forward. And it literal that'swhy I've always liked that quote
of if you're a leader andthere's no one behind you, then
you're just out taking a walk.You have fooled yourself on who
you are and what kind of changecan happen because we're limited

(27:42):
as one. But if we have a groupbehind us, we can do what we
need to do.

I mean, our capacity to fool ourselves. That
is oh, man. You mentionedstudying religion. You mentioned
teaching religion. You talkedabout your spirituality.
I heard you last year speak andyou defined religion as a
binding together. And soessentially when you say the

(28:11):
leader is out for a walk,they're not bound together to
people they're trying to lead.And I hear so many people talk
today about wanting to bespiritual but not religious and
sort of wanting to hold on totheir sense of the divine but
not wanting to be they don't usethe word bound together, but in

(28:32):
a sense, I think people aremaybe afraid of being bound
together. Maybe they'rerejecting it. Could you just
talk to us a little bit aboutthe power of religion as as a
force, as one of theseinstitutions that you've been
working with all these years.

I think, I'm not positive about this, but
I think that people have becometurned off, if you will, by
organized religion. Becauseorganized religion doesn't
always, it's not alwaysinterested in them as a person.
Right. Organized religion ispresented to them as you have

(29:10):
you need to believe this, this,this, and this, and you need to
do this, this, this, and this.And that's not what organized
religion or churches were formedto do.
Churches were formed to respondto the needs of their
congregation.

Yeah. So, I mean, it it's like it comes down
to loving your neighbor. Right?

Exactly.
They can go and serve the massto the neighbor, then that is a
form of loving the neighbor.

Sister Pearl, I'm just hearing so much
about what it looks like to havea community and do it well, to
do community well, to workwithin neighborhoods, to know
your neighbor. And it'sreminding me of a great quote we
have, right, Marcus?

Yeah, yeah, from Laity Lodge. So this is
from a retreat in 2020. LaityLodge is our adult retreat
center, which is organized andput on by the H.E.Butt
Foundation. This is from aretreat and it is we're going to
hear from Nicole Amri, who istalking about Say Si. She's a
teacher in San Antonio. You weretalking earlier about the power

(30:22):
of art to bridge acrosscommunities that have been
separated and segregated. Andshe's talking about the power of
art to bring neighborhoodstogether.
So I just would love to listento this little clip from Laity
Lodge with you and hear yourtake on it.

Okay.

Here we go.

Nicole Amri (30:39):
Neighborhoods. You fix neighborhoods, and you have
these ponds of resources andlove for the school. And that's
what we do at Stacy. We buildcommunity, we build
neighborhood. Our mission is toignite the creative power of
young people as forces ofpositive change in the world.
And they can only do that, I canonly fulfill my mission, if they
have a place to live, if theyare fed, if they are healthy, if

(31:03):
I know that they are going hometo a family that knows how to
support them, or knows theresources. So my job very much
is way beyond our doors. What Igrew up with were people who
cared and shared with potlucks,with saying, I have this to
offer. Does anybody have that?And it's just this beautiful
thing, and I miss that fromgrowing up at Easter when the

(31:25):
neighbors would get together,you know, and where there was
food, and there was the icecream, and and lots of adults
caring, not just my lonelyparents.

Initially, I think we're talking about the
same thing, but we go a littlebit further.

Yeah.

Meaning, we ask people to have those
conversations among themselvesin groups and to center their
conversations around what kindof changes would they like to
see in their neighborhoods andwhat are they willing to do
about it? Not what do they wantother people to do for them, but

(32:06):
what are they willing to do tobring about those changes? So I
would just take what she said asthe foundation. That has to be
there first.

Good.

Yeah. You have to have a community before you
can organize it.

Exactly. Exactly.

I wonder, do we have a community problem right
now that makes organizingharder? Our neighbors less bound
together? Not just because ofthe distrust of religion, but
just we feel like we don't knowhow to be together. We feel
lonely.

Well, post COVID, right? We were isolated
and alone.

Well, even going back before that, when
mobile phones, smartphones cameout, we saw this rapid decline
in mental health among studentsand adults because they're now
connected to their phone.

Exactly.

Marcus Goodyear: More than they're connected to (32:57):
undefined
their neighbor.

And unfortunately, we have been,
acculturated to relate to peoplewho look like us, talk like us,
think like us, or we don't thinkour neighbor is someone who is
different than us. We go for theperson who is like us.

Wow. Yeah.

And that is very limiting, incredibly
limiting. And so if we're nottalking to people different than
we are, that doesn't happen.
Our organizations, what I didn'tmention, are intentionally
multicultural, multiethnic,multi religion. We have Muslims,

(33:42):
Jews, Catholics, Protestants, awhole mix, and we're intentional
as we form them. Multi income.And COPS, they're they have one
of the wealthiest, not thewealthiest, but one of the
wealthiest congregations in thecity that belong as well as some

(34:04):
of the poorest on the West Side,and they all get together and
talk about their interest, allof them.

So good.

And what they were shocked to find out,
both, I hate to say both sides,but both, groups, is when the
poorer communities were talkingabout police and police
protection. That's exactly whatthe wealthiest people were
talking about.

Wow.

They didn't feel they had police or adequate
police protection. And bothsides, I hate to say sides, but
both groups were shocked. Theysaid, oh my gosh. I just I just
thought, you know, you wouldnever be concerned about police
protection. Well, yes, we are.

Finding commonalities across groups that
you didn't think would findthem.

Sister Pearl Ceasar: Yeah. Exactly. (34:52):
undefined

That's so good. Thank you so much.

Yeah.

You're welcome. Thank you all.

This has been been delightful.

Yes. We've enjoyed it.

The Echoes Podcast is written and produced
by Camille Hall-Ortega, RobStennett, and me, Marcus
Goodyear. It's edited by RobStennett and Kim Stone.
Our executive producers arePatton Dodd and David Rogers.
Special thanks to our guesttoday, Sister Pearl Ceasar. The
Echoes Podcast is a productionbrought to you by the H.E.Butt
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(35:24):
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Faith and Justice | With Sister Pearl Ceasar

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Faith and Justice | With Sister Pearl Ceasar