February 18, 2025 • 40 mins
Church attendance is declining, and people often wonder: Why should we still go?
To answer this question, The Echoes Podcast welcomes Corey Widmer, lead pastor of Third Church in Richmond, Virginia, and a member of the Theological Advisory Council for the H. E. Butt Foundation. Corey shares his insights on the meaning of life, the importance of community, and how the church can better embody Jesus's teachings in a world often disillusioned by religion.
Join hosts Marcus Goodyear and Camille Hall-Ortega as they explore the role of the church in modern life and how our beliefs can shape our actions for the better.
NOTES:
Do you like this story? You’ll love Echoes Magazine. Print subscriptions are free from the H. E. Butt Foundation:
Subscribe - Echoes Magazine (hebfdn.org)
Read Corey’s Echoes article on “The Four-Part Gospel” that inspired this episode:
The Gospel of Wholeness - Canyon
Listen to David Brooks’ full talk at Laity Lodge and one of his articles in The Atlantic:
The Deep Humanity of God - Laity Lodge
Why Americans Are So Awful to One Another - The Atlantic
Investigate materials referenced in this podcast:
- “We move from being consumers to contributors.” - Andy Crouch
- “Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either— but right through every human heart— and through all human hearts.” - Aleksander Solzhenitsyn
- “People who are lonely are seven times more likely to be active in politics...” - Ryan Street - Source
- Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7)
- Jeremiah 29:7-11
Production Team:
- Written and produced by Camille Hall-Ortega, Rob Stennett, and Marcus Goodyear
- Edited by Rob Stennett and Kim Stone
- Executive Producers: Patton Dodd and David Rogers
- Funded by the H. E. Butt Foundation
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Marcus Goodyear (00:01):
Thirty-percent of people in The United States
go to worship services everyweek. The voice of our God
speaks to us even when He issilent. That's not a majority,
and traditional churchattendance has been dropping in
recent years.
News Clip (00:16):
It began tonight as US church membership has fallen
below 50% for the very firsttime.
Marcus Goodyear (00:22):
But many people are still active members of a
faith community. And I've alwayswondered why people go. My son
asked me this one time, "Why arewe Christian?" And I told him,
"Well, we're Christian becausewe were born Christian."
I was being cheeky, of course,though there is a lot of truth
in that answer. I mean, really,I think my son just wanted to
know why we go to church or whywe keep going. What is this all
(00:45):
about? Is it belief orbelonging, peace or power, or
just love? Different people havedifferent answers to that
question, obviously.
It's an open secret that thereis a lot more variety between
churches and between Christiansthan most people think. And some
of this is style, the style ofmusic, organ or guitar, style of
dress, robes or no robes, styleof politics, sadly. Some of the
(01:08):
variety though is alsotheological, sin and grace
stuff, heaven and hell stuff,even different beliefs about who
God is and how God calls us tolive in the world. One thing
Christians agree on though, thisBible thing. If you are a
Christian, that's your book.
However you choose to read it orinterpret it, you might want it
in the public schools. You mightwanna keep it out of the public
(01:30):
schools. It gets messy fastbecause so many of us find our
identity in our faithcommunities. We are what we
believe or put another way,maybe, I believe, therefore I
am.
From the H.E.Butt Foundation,this is The Echoes Podcast.
On today's episode, we welcomeour guest, Corey Widmer. Corey
is the lead pastor of ThirdChurch serving Richmond,
(01:53):
Virginia. He's also on thetheological advisory council for
the H.E.Butt Foundation, and hewrote a theological piece in
Echoes Magazine about the fourpart gospel.
I'm Marcus Goodyear here with myco host, Camille Hall-Ortega.
Today, we are talking about themeaning of life with Corey
Widmer and how our beliefs aboutthe meaning of life affect what
we do each day. Welcome to thepodcast, Corey.
Corey Widmer (02:15):
Thank you. I'm so happy to be here talking about
this little topic of the meaningof life thing.
Camille Hall-Ortega (02:21):
Yes.
Corey Widmer (02:22):
Very very happy to be with you you both.
Camille Hall-Ortega (02:24):
We're glad to have you. We try to keep the
the topics pretty narrow.
Marcus Goodyear (02:29):
Yeah. Yeah. You know, just a small thing. Just a
small thing.
Corey Widmer (02:32):
Small thing. Yes.
Marcus Goodyear (02:34):
So my son asked me once, "Why are we Christian?"
He was in high school, and Isaid, "Well, ultimately, we're
Christian because we were bornChristian." And that's probably
not the answer you're lookingfor. And I'm curious, Corey,
you're a pastor. What do youthink of that response from a
dad, and where should aconversation like that go next?
Corey Widmer (02:53):
There's a beautiful truth in that answer.
And, of course, the way that youmight dialogue with that answer
depends on your theologicaltradition and the brand of
Christian that you are. And so Iactually think there's something
really beautiful about saying wewere born Christian because in
in my tradition, we have areally high view of the church,
(03:16):
and we call the church thecovenant family. We're a
spiritual family. And, ofcourse, you're born into a
family.
And just like we're born into abiological family, we're born
into a spiritual family. And formany, we baptize our babies, and
we want our kids to hopefullynever remember a time when they
were not part of the churchfamily, and they did not know
(03:40):
never remember a time when theycouldn't remember that God loved
them and claimed them. In fact,growing up, my pastor,
Presbyterian pastor, whenever hewould see me, if I was away at
college, I'd come back. He'dsay, "There you are, the child
of the covenant." And
Marcus Goodyear (03:58):
That's intense.
Camille Hall-Ortega (04:00):
Awww.
Corey Widmer (04:00):
He called me a child of the covenant. So I
think there's somethingbeautiful about that, that your
son is a Christian because hewas born into a community that
claimed him as God's beloved. Onthe other hand, I might
challenge that answer just alittle bit. Because Jesus when
Jesus walked around, He was veryHe was very loving, but He was
(04:23):
very critical to one group ofpeople, and that was the
religious people. That was thepeople who just thought they
were they were special becausethey were born that way.
They were born into this tribeand this religion, and Jesus
challenged them deeply to sayparticipation in a religion is
never enough to push themtowards spiritual
transformation. I think we cannever fully settle with just
(04:46):
mere participation because Jesusalways pushes us to spiritual
transformation. So that's why Imight I might haggle with your
answer just a little bit.
Camille Hall-Ortega (04:56):
Yeah. I'm so glad that you talked about it
in that way because I think itis a beautiful sentiment, this
idea that we're born and Godloves us. He loved us already.
He loved us in the womb. Right?
He loved us before we wereknown. He knew us before anyone
else did. And so that's thatsort of beauty in that answer.
(05:19):
But, yes, it's good to sort of__I can imagine me as an
inquisitive kid going, can weunpack that a little bit? Right?
Corey Widmer (05:26):
Yeah.
Camille Hall-Ortega (05:26):
Can we unpack a little because, of
course, you know, as youmentioned, different traditions
have some of these details. Welook at them a little bit
differently. And so for me, Icome from a Baptist background
and now, nondenominational. Andso, yeah, we would say there's a
choice that has to be made.Right?
Corey Widmer (05:46):
Yeah.
Camille Hall-Ortega (05:47):
There's a choice that has to be made. And
so my parents' answer might looka little bit different, but I
think knowing that it's rootedin love and the love of God is
really beautiful.
Corey Widmer (06:03):
Yeah. Even though I grew up in a Presbyterian
church, I very much was alsoimmersed in the world of kind of
nondenominational, baptisticevangelicalism. And there was a
strong sense in that communitythat it is your choice. And I
remember people saying thingslike, just because you're born
in a garage doesn't make you acar. Right.
Just because you're born in abarn doesn't make you a sheep.
You know, just because you'reborn in a church family doesn't
(06:25):
make you a Christian. Andthere's some truth to that. And
yet I want to say drawing fromboth traditions, both the more,
I would say, liturgical reformtraditions and the
nondenominational traditions, wecan say that both things are
true, that we're born we shouldbe born knowing that we're
claimed by God, and we don'thave to do anything to earn
(06:47):
that. And yet we also know thatwe need to be a part of
partnering with God in ourspiritual transformation, and
that means surrendering to Himand inviting the Holy Spirit
into our lives and expecting aspiritual change that produces
fruit.
So, yeah. Yeah. I think this iswhy important we need all the
traditions, notjust stuck in one.
Camille Hall-Ortega (07:06):
That's right.
Marcus Goodyear (07:06):
True. True.
Camille Hall-Ortega (07:08):
Right.
Marcus Goodyear (07:08):
Yeah. To be fair to my son, I'm using him
he's gonna be so mortified thatI did this. But I'm using him as
a foil because I think what hewas he was really asking two
things in my mind. One of themwas why do we have to go to
church?
Corey Widmer (07:20):
Mhmm. Of course. I mean I asked that when I was his age too.
Camille Hall-Ortega (07:24):
Right. Right.
Marcus Goodyear (07:24):
Yeah. I mean, I'll be honest. I still ask that
question.
I just I do, you know? The otherquestion though, the deeper
question I think he was reallyasking was why are we committed
to this form of spiritualformation? Why are we continuing
to choose Christianity?
And that is obviously a muchdeeper conversation that he and
(07:44):
I are continuing to have. We'vetalked a lot about church more
than we have on many otherepisodes we've recorded so far,
which is super fun and I thinkin line with who we are as a
foundation. I read that thechurch is in decline in America
and we're talking about thesecommunities that have been so
important to us and why wechoose them. What do you think
(08:06):
it means for these communitiesto be in decline? And do you
even agree with that?
Corey Widmer (08:10):
I think I do agree with that. I mean, I think
there's a couple of differentways to unpack decline. What
does decline mean? I mean, onthe one hand, we do know that
literally the statisticians showus that the church is in
decline. I mean, twenty yearsago, 45% of people regularly
attend the church.
Ten years ago, 38%. Now 30%. So,I mean, that's that's a
(08:33):
significant decline over twentyyears, and we have every reason
to expect that decline willcontinue. So, yeah,
quantitatively, there has beendecline. But I also think you
could argue that qualitativelythere has been a decline. I
think that when I see theAmerican church, I often see a
(08:57):
church that, is declining in itsspiritual fervor and declining
in its integrity. I see thecaptivity to political idolatry.
I see shallow forms ofdiscipleship. I see reductionist
gospels.
I mean, I mean, there's there'sa lot of ways that like, when I
go to travel around the worldand I go to places that have
(09:19):
traditionally been seen as,like, the third world, I see,
like, a vibrant deepChristianity. Whereas what often
I see in America is a moreshallow form of it. And I think
we'll look back and see the waythat in the twentieth and
twenty-first century, the centerof Christianity really shifted
away from the traditionalChristian west and more into
places of Africa and Asia wheretraditionally we're seen as
(09:40):
missionary, places formissionaries to go. So I do
think there's a decline inAmerica, both in the quantity
and quality of Christians.
Camille Hall-Ortega (09:49):
And I imagine are you thinking, of
course, that those are related,that
Corey Widmer (09:54):
I think so.
Camille Hall-Ortega (09:55):
folks don't want to come to church if they
think it is causing dissension,or that people aren't practicing
what they preach or that theycan find the sort of support
they're looking for somewhereelse? Or what what do
you think about that?
Corey Widmer (10:11):
Certainly, Camille. I mean, we know that
millennials and Gen Z are arethe most inclined to leave
traditional institutional formsof church. And it isn't
necessarily because they don'tlove they don't have respect for
Jesus or they don't believe inJesus or they don't respect
spirituality. It's because manyof them are just disillusioned
(10:31):
with the institution of theAmerican church and what it is
certainly, some of it is the waythat it's been portrayed in the
media, but a lot of that is verytrue. It's true to to to form
and what the church has been andhow we've capitulated to a lot
of compromises.
Marcus Goodyear (10:45):
So if someone has lost faith in the church
like we're talking about, maybethey still self-identify as a
Christian, maybe not. What wouldyou say to them? Why should they
go? Why should they be part of achurch again? And also, what
should that look like? Or maybewhat does it look like?
Corey Widmer (11:05):
Well, you know, despite everything, despite what
the church has been, can be,despite its flaws, despite its
foibles, I would still encouragea person to become a part of a
(11:27):
church. I think thatChristianity is a communal
collective faith. It is notmeant to be practiced alone. The
pages of the New Testament andthe whole Bible are just
stirring with images andmetaphors of our collective
(11:48):
identity, you know, whether it'sthe body of Christ or, or that
we're part of a a wholecollective community that God
redeems. And I would even go sofar as to say we need one
another. We need a community notjust to know God, but to know
(12:10):
ourselves.
Camille Hall-Ortega (12:11):
Mhmm.
Corey Widmer (12:11):
And we can't fully know God. We can't fully know
even ourselves unless we'redeeply embedded within a
community of faith that isseeking to know and love God
together. So I would encourageanyone who is seeking, as hard
as it might be at times, to getget involved in the church.
(12:32):
Now you asked what that shouldlook like. I mean, I would I
would say to find a church, inwhich you can be not just a
consumer watching a really coolshow up at front, not just be an
observer, but to be acontributor. Andy Crouch has
this great phrase where he says,"We move from being consumers to
(12:54):
contributors, from consumers tocreators." And this is what part
of what it means to be made inGod's image is to be not just a
a person who passively sees, butwho actively contributes. And so
a church that where community iscentral, where we're not just
passively standing by, we'reparticipating in the life of the
(13:14):
community together, where wehave a sense of belonging, a
sense of shared purpose. Andthat often will mean that there
are very annoying and difficultpeople, but that's part of what
it means to be in the body ofChrist. So, you know, what do
you guys think?
Camille Hall-Ortega (13:30):
No. I think I think that's really good. I
think hearing the statistics, itfeels like it those statistics
beg sort of two questions, whichis, is church worth it? Right?
Is it a problem that thatdecline exists?
And I think for us as Christfollow followers and speaking to
your answer, the the answer isyes. That we, you know, we know
(13:53):
the importance of corporateworship. We know that the how
the body of Christ is meant towork. And so, yes, there's value
in being a part of a church. AndAnd so then the next question I
would ask, well, what what doyou do about that decline?
What does it look like to makemeaningful strides to improve
(14:13):
that decline? To turn it around?And I think exactly what you
were speaking to is has been myexperience that when you find a
community that can be reallyfruitful and intentional, it's
important not just to say, whatwhat can this place do for me?
(14:36):
But to say, what does it looklike for me to serve in this
place?
And I have found time and againthat when you begin to serve in
your church community is whenyou have the most meaningful
community yourself.
Marcus Goodyear (14:49):
Yeah. Especially when you serve in
your church community beyondyour church community.
Camille Hall-Ortega (14:54):
Sure. Together serving serving the
outside community together.
Marcus Goodyear (14:58):
Yeah. So when I when I think of church as a way
to gather- I'm an old Englishmajor nerd, so I love gathering
around the Bible and justreading scripture because I love
gathering around any book,especially a book that is good
enough to continue to be readtwo thousand years later. So I
like Bible study just becauseI'm a nerd, but I also really
(15:19):
like the pop up food marketsthat we do, the feed the
homeless that we do.
Corey Widmer (15:25):
100% agree with you, Marcus. And I and I think
so much of this relate we talkedabout the meaning of life
before. That's how you openthis. Like we're supposed to be
talking about the meaning oflife. Right? And so a lot of
this comes down to what youunderstand the church to be.
Camille Hall-Ortega (15:40):
Right.
Corey Widmer (15:40):
What you understand yourself to be. And
if your primary goal is to behappy and your primary goal is
to, you know, live a life ofpersonal fulfillment, then
church is gonna be there to helpme with my personal happiness
and personal fulfillment. And soI go there to get a product in
the same way that I would go toa spa or go to a club or
something. And then when I amnot satisfied with it anymore,
(16:00):
you know, I move on to find adifferent church or not at all.
But if the meaning of life is toparticipate with God in his
redemptive mission of allthings, to redeem all things,
and if he has created thischurch to join him in that
redemptive mission, then, gosh,to be a part of a church means
that I get to be a part of apeople who are on mission with
God for the redemption of allthings.
(16:22):
And that just, like, blows thedoors open. It means that I
can't not be human without thiswithout this community. Right? I
need to serve. I need to to beon mission. I need to be get
involved in the problems of theworld, because it's part of what
it means to be human.
Camille Hall-Ortega (16:38):
Even though it can get really messy.
Corey Widmer (16:41):
Oh, so messy.
Camille Hall-Ortega (16:41):
It can get really messy because because we
are human. Right? That so manytimes I hear stories of people
being disillusioned with thechurch, and really they're
disillusioned with people in achurch. Right? And so they go,
"This thing happened."
And it's really important.Right? These aren't things that
we can set aside and just say,like, la c'est la vie, you know,
(17:03):
that kind of thing. No. Thesethese are really important and
sometimes traumatic things forfolks. But it's because we are
flawed. We are fallen. We arenot Jesus. We just want to be as
much like Him as we can. Right?
And so we see that happening.And I know that for us, we say
hurt people hurt people. Right?That that many of us know that
(17:26):
the church can look like ahospital, and you're gonna find
people who are hurting. Andyou're one of those folks.
And a lot of times, hurt peoplehurt people, and so it can get
really messy. But it's, it's soimportant to note that it's
worth it, that the messiness isworth it.
Corey Widmer (17:45):
It is worth it.
Marcus Goodyear (17:47):
Yeah. Defining how it's worth it, I do find
continually to be a challenge,especially for people outside
the system. For me, whensomebody rejects the church
because of broken people, what Iunderstand them to be saying is
that this is a closed systemthat's defending itself. And
they want it to be somethingbigger.
(18:07):
It promises to be somethingbigger. And so when it becomes
insular, when it becomes abouttithes in order to keep the
building, in order to keep thekeep itself running,
self-perpetuation is notinspiring. And so there's the
they experience this differencebetween what the church says it
is and what they believe theywant it to be, which is, in my
mind the body of Christ thatliving all of us together living
(18:31):
out the teachings of Jesus inthe world today, which is a
great thing.
Corey Widmer (18:35):
Yeah.
Marcus Goodyear (18:36):
I don't know anybody of any faith who thinks
the teachings of Jesus are bad.That's a bit of an
overstatement, but not much. Notmuch. You hear a lot of people
talking about He's a goodteacher and all this. And so
people generally agree, thathe's good.
And yet, what we believe andwhat we do can feel so far
(18:56):
apart. And I'm not talking aboutjust, like, the superficial way
of thinking about hypocrisy. Imean, the system itself seems to
not be behaving as the body ofChrist in the world in ways that
are just disillusioning. So it'smore than just I can't get along
with the person in the pew twopews ahead of me. What do we do
with with a closed systemchurch?
Corey Widmer (19:17):
Yeah.
Marcus Goodyear (19:18):
What does it look like for the church to open
up?
Corey Widmer (19:20):
Well, in this I think what you're saying is
really important, Marcus,because you're saying there's a
difference between saying, Ihave challenges in church
because so and so person thereis annoying, and I have a hard
time with them and saying thatthere's something, like,
systemically broken or toxic orin turned in upon itself about
the system. And I do think thatthat is some that is a challenge
(19:40):
for the leaders of the churches,for people like me, for pastors
to really look at ourselves inthe mirror, to understand, you
know, how what are ways that wehave really, lost sight of the
New Testament vision of what thechurch is called to be and
really do, like, some hard workof of correction and, renewal
for this new age that we're in.So I really take what you're
(20:02):
saying seriously, and we'retrying to do that in different
ways in my own community. And Ithink there's many churches
around the country that areseeking to do similar things.
Camille Hall-Ortega (20:11):
Will you tell us what some of those
things are? I'm so curious aboutwhat it looks like to do work
that makes the church look andbe less divisive to folks who
are on the outside looking in.
Corey Widmer (20:26):
So one thing we've done- we're a large church.
We're, you know, over a thousandpeople. And so how do you help a
church like that become a churchin which people feel like they
belong and that they have ashared purpose? And so about
five or six years ago, we sortof came up with a new way to
organize the church. So wecreated 12 geographic parishes
(20:47):
around our city based on wherepeople live, and we tried to
make a bigger church muchsmaller.
And so in each parish, there's acouple hundred people, and we
reconfigured the way ourleadership works. So now leaders
are over each of these areas,and we our our small groups are
organized geographically. We'retrying to grow smaller. So we
might be growing as a church,but we wanna grow smaller. We
(21:07):
wanna get more in touch witheach other, more in touch with
our local communities.
Mission is abstract unlessyou're talking about your own
particular neighbors. And so wewant people together to love
their neighbors, care abouttheir neighborhoods, care about
the schools and the institutionsin their neighborhoods. So we're
trying to make community andmission smaller and more local,
(21:29):
and that has given people asense of belonging and a sense
of shared purpose, that youcan't get just like coming
sitting in a service andconsuming a good, sermon or
something.
Camille Hall-Ortega (21:41):
I love that. It sounds like you are
improving intentionality andintimacy. And I know when we've
talked about, I the phrase hasbeen used, I don't know if it's
an overstatement, but that wehave an epidemic of loneliness.
And so when people are seekingmeaningful relationships that
(22:01):
are not surface level, that godeep, where you really feel
known and you're able to knowothers, I'm sure plenty of folks
are looking for that in theirchurch community. And it sounds
like your efforts would helplead to that, would help lead
away from loneliness and andmore toward intention and
intimacy.
Marcus Goodyear (22:21):
Camille, that makes me wanna go to the David
Brooks clip that we've prepared.Last month, David Brooks was out
at Laity Lodge, the adultretreat center that the H.E.Butt
Foundation runs, and DavidBrooks is a New York Time
columnist. I guess, probably heoften appears on radio and TV
shows as the the thoughtfulconservative or used to be
(22:44):
anyway. And so he was he was notat Laity Lodge with a political
agenda, but it did come up justbecause that's his work.
And so, I'd like to play thislittle clip that we've pulled
from a talk he gave at the lodgeand just get your feedback on
it, Corey.
David Brooks (23:03):
And so you see these skyrocketing rates of of
mental health problems which areattached to politics, and that
gives people a sense ofpowerlessness. And so in my
view, what people are doing isthey feel a pain, they feel
lonely, they feel hopeless, theyfeel mean, and they want to find
a social therapy that will easetheir inner ache. And they
(23:27):
should be coming to faith, butthey're not by and large.
They're going to politics. Andpolitics is an attractive form
of social therapy because itgives you the illusion that you
have a sense of belonging.
I'm on team red or team blue.But you're not really in
community with people. You'rejust hating the same people
together. That's not community.Politics gives the the illusion
(23:51):
of a moral landscape.
I can understand the morality ofthe world because there's good
over here on my side and there'sevil over there on that side.
But as Solzhenitsyn said,"That's not a real moral
landscape. The line between goodand evil runs down every human
heart," Solzhenitsyn said. Itgives you the illusion of moral
action. I'm doing something forthe world.
But you're not sitting with awidow or helping the poor.
(24:13):
You're just being indignant infront of the TV screen. And so
it gives you all these illusionsthat it'll help you solve you
think you're gonna solve yourproblem. And it should be said
that people who are lonely,according to a researcher named
Ryan Streeter, people who arelonely are seven times more
likely to be active in politicsthan people who aren't lonely.
And so that says a lot aboutwhere our politics is.
Corey Widmer (24:37):
So good.
Marcus Goodyear (24:37):
He hit on belonging. He hit on loneliness.
He hit on community. I mean, somany things that we were talking
about.
Corey Widmer (24:44):
Yeah. I just love that. And what makes me wanna
listen to his whole talk- youknow what it reminds me of is
that humans desperately need tofeel belonging. They need to
feel heroic.
They need to feel a a sense ofgrand meaning to their lives.
But when you lose God, when asociety no longer has God within
(25:05):
its imminent frame, what do youturn to? People really a lot
turn to sex and turn to love.And one of the reasons why,
like, romantic love has becomesuch an idol in our society is
because of the loss of God. ButI think that I think what Brooks
is saying is that the same thinghas happened with politics, is
that as not only as our societyhas lost any sense of the
(25:27):
transcendence, but also as thechurch has dramatically declined
and no longer provides thatsense of shared belonging and
shared common purpose, politicshas been a very, very terrible
stand in.
It has given people you know,when they can't find
transcendence, they can't findmeaning, they can't find a sense
of shared purpose. Well, here'shere's an option. But as David
(25:49):
Brooks said, it actually sort ofundermines everything that we're
looking for in so many ways.It's a really beautiful
meditation that he gives there.
Camille Hall-Ortega (25:57):
I love what you're saying because at the
root of a lot of our searchingand striving is this need and
desire for belonging. And it'simportant that we know what it
looks like to try to fulfillthat in the church through God,
(26:22):
through community. Are weattempting to fill that need
with something that's healthy?If it's a shared hate that's not
gonna do it. That's not gonna doit. Right? That's just what we
heard at false community.
Corey Widmer (26:39):
And Christians have been really, like, diluted
and and I think led astray, inthis regard too, especially as
it comes to politics. I thinkthat while politics is certainly
one way that Christians could beinvolved in helping to influence
society, I would say it's not atall the best way and and maybe
(26:59):
not a favored way at all. Andwhen we rest our hopes for what
we want our country to be or theworld to be, on it, like,
political power and we, like,put our hopes in that, it
becomes no wonder, like, youhear people using, like, highly
almost eschatological language.Like, our life will be destroyed
(27:23):
if this candidate wins orAmerica hangs on this election.
I mean, that's just that's justfoolishness.
Camille Hall-Ortega (27:29):
Well, it's it's not biblical.
Corey Widmer (27:30):
Right? That's not all.
Camille Hall-Ortega (27:32):
Our hope is built on Jesus.
Corey Widmer (27:34):
Yeah, and yet when we throw our hopes within the
political sphere because wethink it'll somehow, like, help
us get this meaning and purposethat we're longing for, that's
what happens. We becomeidolaters.
Camille Hall-Ortega (27:44):
Mhmm.
Marcus Goodyear (27:45):
Politics is a way of thinking about power and
negotiating power.
Corey Widmer (27:50):
Yeah.
Marcus Goodyear (27:50):
And what I love about Christian faith is that it
flips that, you know, Jesus isthe servant. He gives up
himself. He empties himself forthe world around us and His,
when He rides into Jerusalem tojust follow the story out, He
(28:11):
knows that He's going into hisdeath. And it's only through
sacrifice, it's only throughdeath, it's only through giving
ourselves up that we find thething that is truly life.
Corey Widmer (28:22):
Mhmm.
Marcus Goodyear (28:23):
And I when I was talking to my son about
Jesus.
Camille Hall-Ortega (28:25):
Preach it today.
Corey Widmer (28:27):
That's the upside down down kingdom. That's
the upside down kingdom.
Marcus Goodyear (28:29):
Yeah. Christ is teaching us to give ourselves
up, to give up our identities. Imean, that is powerful. It is it
is irresistible and scary in away that I want to be part of
it. And so for me, the thechallenge is that I have this
belief that I want to be true.
And I don't even think mostlybeyond the implications of just
(28:50):
emptying myself and helping thethose around me empty
themselves, for for ourcommunity locally. But I want to
be part of this and I want thechurch to promote that. You
know? I want to see that in thechurch, and so often we fall
short of our own beliefs.
(29:11):
We fall short of of what we saywe want to do, and our systems
fall short of it too.
Camille Hall-Ortega (29:17):
And maybe that's related to how folks
interpret things. I know, Corey,you just wrote a great piece in
Echoes about the four partgospel. Will you talk a little
bit about that and how thatmight affect perspective?
Corey Widmer (29:37):
Yes. The Bible tells a big story with four
chapters, creation, fall,redemption, consummation. But
often we reduce the story,reduce the gospel to just the
middle two, the fall andredemption. And when we do that,
I really do think it changeseverything and I including how
we think about politics andthese things that we've been
(29:58):
talking about. I mean, one wayto look at it is that if you
have a two chapter gospel, ifall your gospel is just fallen
redemption, I'm a sinner and Ineed Jesus to save me, then your
posture towards the world isessentially inherently negative,
reactive.
(30:19):
You know, denouncing, critiquingwhat's bad. The world is
inherently bad and wicked. We'removing away from the world. We
resist, react, reject, renounce.So it's an inherently reactive
posture.
I think if you have a fourchapter gospel, then I think you
have a more redemptive posturewhere you're the world is a good
world that is broken, yes, butthat Jesus Christ has redeemed
(30:43):
through his death andresurrection, and he is coming
to consummate his the fruit ofhis work. And therefore, we move
towards the world. We affirm andcultivate what's good. We
instead of resisting, reacting,renouncing, we're renewing,
restoring, redeeming,resurrecting, regenerating. I
mean, these are a lot r words.Right?
Camille Hall-Ortega (31:05):
Right.
Corey Widmer (31:05):
And that just gives us a different posture in
the way that we handleeverything from politics to the
work of human labor to racerelations to everything. It just
changes the bigger story.
Marcus Goodyear (31:18):
In the in the article, you talk about
wholeness and shalom and that'sthe direction of scripture.
Shalom is a Hebrew word.
Corey Widmer (31:27):
I mean, I think a great definition is flourishing.
I know that's become sort of acatchphrase these days, but I
really think it's a beautifulword because it means to be a
person who is flourishing inevery way you could flourish.
Your life with God, your lifewith other humans, your life in
this beautiful creation,everything is is whole. You're
(31:47):
flourishing as a person.
Marcus Goodyear (31:50):
So we've been talking about the church giving
itself away. What does it looklike for us to approach the
church as a tool for helpingothers flourish? Not just
ourselves, but others. And howmuch responsibility do we have
to support our neighbor'scapacity to flourish?
Corey Widmer (32:07):
Well, I think we have- maybe the this is the
call. This is the beautiful callthat God has given us. I mean,
Jeremiah 29, 7-11 is a sectionof scripture that I love where,
the people of God had been takeninto exile in a foreign land,
and they didn't really wanna beinvolved in their community
(32:28):
because they're a bunch of, youknow, people that they hated.
And God through the prophetJeremiah comes to them and says,
actually, I want you to seek theshalom, the flourishing of your
neighbor because in theirflourishing is your flourishing,
which is kinda crazy. Right?
He says if you wanna flourish,you've you've gotta be involved
(32:48):
in your neighbor's flourishing.And Jesus says some very similar
things, in the Sermon on theMount when he calls his people
to be salt and light, to beleavening, to be fruitful. He
calls people to be peacemakers.He calls them to be those who
hunger and thirst for justice,for social righteousness in
their communities.
He's almost saying you've gottabe as just as hungry for your
(33:13):
neighbor's flourishing as youare for food and drink. I mean,
it's just beautiful. And so Ithink what that means is that
the church, we need to figureout ways to support people in
doing that work of offlourishing in their
communities, whether it meansempowering people to come
alongside the most vulnerable intheir neighborhoods and their
cities, or whether it meanshelping to heal, historic places
(33:36):
of injustice and oppression inAmerica. You know, that would
be, for example, in this longhistory of racial oppression in
our society and the ongoingeffects of that oppression. It
could mean getting involved insupporting people in their
everyday labor and the work oftheir hands, whether they're
teachers, educators, doctors,lawyers, tradespeople.
(33:58):
It could mean equipping peopleto be really good neighbors and
to pay attention to the needs oftheir neighbors. It could mean
getting people involved increation care and helping
holistically care for the Earth.It could mean equipping people
to share the good news of Jesusand how to articulate the true
good news that Jesus is offeringpeople, not just to go to heaven
(34:19):
when they die, but to berestored in their full humanity,
to be connected to God, tobe connected to others,
connected to the earth. So Ijust that's what the church is
called to do. We're on thisbeautiful mission of shalom,
mission of flourishing,empowering people to extend that
flourishing to our neighbors.
Camille Hall-Ortega (34:33):
I was just thinking all of those things, we
know that they are good. Andyet, most of them are pretty
hard for us because it's not ournature to do what God has called
us to do, which is to esteemothers higher than ourselves. To
think of your neighbor's needsas more important than your own
(34:55):
does not feel natural. Right?That's not something that comes
easily.
But there's a sort a sort ofbeauty in this incentive that
God is telling us. I'm tellingyou how it's supposed to be
because that's how it's best.And so, esteeming your neighbor,
thinking of your neighbor andhis or her needs above your own
(35:18):
will cause your life to be morefull, cause you to thrive, lead
to you flourishing. What a goodGod we serve.
Corey Widmer (35:28):
I know. Isn't that beautiful?
Camille Hall-Ortega (35:30):
Yeah.
Corey Widmer (35:30):
And it's to become like Jesus. Because Jesus is was
the ultimate lover of neighbor.I mean, look what He gave. He
gave everything. He gave hislife. He gave everything. And
like Marcus was saying earlier,the church will be the church
when we're a crucified church, across shaped church, a church
that looks like Jesus, a churchthat is taking all that we have,
all of our resources and ourpower, and is giving them away
(35:52):
for our neighbor. And I thinkwhat often people are seeing,
especially in politics, is ataking church, a church that
wants to take things forthemselves, power and resources
for themselves. And that is achurch that is obscuring Jesus,
because Jesus is one who gavehimself away.
Marcus Goodyear (36:08):
Yeah. And yet we're reading the same Bible.
Right? So how does it happen?How does it happen that we have
this book that teaches a betterway of living, like demonstrably
better, such that people whodon't believe in it can
recognize the wisdom in the bookand it's like we don't know how
(36:30):
to read. Maybe we're just notreading. I don't know.
Camille Hall-Ortega (36:35):
That brings up a possibility.
Corey Widmer: That brings up some complicated (36:37):
undefined
questions of biblicalinterpretation. How two people
can read the same thing and comeup with very different answers.
And this is where I think weneed the help of the great
teachers of the church and theway that the church has
interpreted the scriptureswisely throughout the ages and,
and being very aware of our owncultural captivity that leads us
(37:00):
to, I think, blindness and notseeing what the truth of the
scripture is really saying. Andwe need each other for that. We
need our traditions for that. Weneed the Holy Spirit for that.
Camille Hall-Ortega (37:11):
And so maybe but we're talking about
the meaning of life. Right? Ithink we've touched on all
aspects of that question forsure. Right? But truly that
we're talking about loving Godand loving our neighbor, and
that's it.
Marcus Goodyear (37:26):
That's right.
Camille Hall-Ortega (37:27):
That's what that's the picture God painted
for us of what it looks like tolive life more abundantly.
Corey Widmer (37:35):
You know, I just love that, Camille. And it
reminds me just to maybe endwith a little story. I visited a
little old lady, who was ahundred and one. She was the
oldest person in our church, andshe was in a tiny little room in
a home. And she was very ill,and, she could barely move.
(38:00):
And I sat with her, before acouple of days before she died
there in that room. And everynurse that came in, she smiled
and greeted them by name, everynursing assistant. When I left
and walked outside, all thenurses were like, we're just so
sad that she's dying, becauseshe's just been such a joy. She
(38:21):
asks us all how we're doing. Sheknows our names of our family
members.
She brings joy into this unit.And it just was so powerful for
me because, you know, we heardebates even about euthanasia
and about people losing theiragency and their sense of
purpose, and they can no longermeaningfully contribute to
(38:42):
society because they're too old.What's the purpose of them even
using up resources anymore? Buthere's this little old lady with
a frail body barely able tomove, and she is fulfilling the
meaning of life in that littleroom more than most any other
person that I knew. She isloving God, and she is loving
her neighbor, and she's doing itin a highly limited way, but
(39:02):
she's doing it in a powerful,beautiful way.
She's so, I mean, what thatmeans is we can we can fulfill
the meaning of life. Whateverour limitations, whatever our
restrictions. If the meaning oflife is to love God and love
neighbor, and we do that throughthe the the the sacrifice of
Jesus for us and his life in us,then we can do that whenever,
(39:22):
wherever, however. That's ourcalling.
Camille Hall-Ortega (39:26):
So good.
Marcus Goodyear (39:27):
Yeah. Powerful story. And in as much as we're
looking toward the end ofthings, I think what a beautiful
end to look toward to to be ableto to be like the woman who you
were with.
Corey Widmer (39:40):
Mhmm. I wanna be like her.
Camille Hall-Ortega (39:43):
Yes. Thank you for that story.
Marcus Goodyear (39:44):
Right. Yeah. Thank you.
Thank you so much for joining ustoday. We really, really
appreciate everything you do forthe foundation and for the
representative you are.
Corey Widmer (39:54):
Thanks, guys. It's a joy to be with you. Thank you
for your work.
Camille Hall-Ortega (39:57):
Thanks. Same to you. Bye bye.
Marcus Goodyear (40:01):
Thank you for listening to The Echoes Podcast.
We will include links to DavidBrooks' audio from Laity Lodge
and Corey Widmer's article inEchoes magazine. And while
you're reading his article onEchoes, be sure to subscribe to
our print magazine. It's freeand it's beautiful, and it comes
once a quarter. So it doesn'teven clutter up your mailbox.
The Echoes Podcast is writtenand produced by Camille
Hall-Ortega, Rob Stennett, andme, Marcus Goodyear. It's edited
(40:25):
by Rob Stennett and Kim Stone.Our executive producers are
Patton Dodd and David Rogers.Special thanks to our guest
today, Corey Widmer. The EchoesPodcast is a production brought
to you by the H.E.ButtFoundation.
You can learn more about ourmission and vision at hebfdn.org
Thirty-percent of people in The United States
go to worship services everyweek. The voice of our God
speaks to us even when He issilent. That's not a majority,
and traditional churchattendance has been dropping in
recent years.
News Clip (00:16):
It began tonight as US church membership has fallen
below 50% for the very firsttime.
Marcus Goodyear (00:22):
But many people are still active members of a
faith community. And I've alwayswondered why people go. My son
asked me this one time, "Why arewe Christian?" And I told him,
"Well, we're Christian becausewe were born Christian."
I was being cheeky, of course,though there is a lot of truth
in that answer. I mean, really,I think my son just wanted to
know why we go to church or whywe keep going. What is this all
(00:45):
about? Is it belief orbelonging, peace or power, or
just love? Different people havedifferent answers to that
question, obviously.
It's an open secret that thereis a lot more variety between
churches and between Christiansthan most people think. And some
of this is style, the style ofmusic, organ or guitar, style of
dress, robes or no robes, styleof politics, sadly. Some of the
(01:08):
variety though is alsotheological, sin and grace
stuff, heaven and hell stuff,even different beliefs about who
God is and how God calls us tolive in the world. One thing
Christians agree on though, thisBible thing. If you are a
Christian, that's your book.
However you choose to read it orinterpret it, you might want it
in the public schools. You mightwanna keep it out of the public
(01:30):
schools. It gets messy fastbecause so many of us find our
identity in our faithcommunities. We are what we
believe or put another way,maybe, I believe, therefore I
am.
From the H.E.Butt Foundation,this is The Echoes Podcast.
On today's episode, we welcomeour guest, Corey Widmer. Corey
is the lead pastor of ThirdChurch serving Richmond,
(01:53):
Virginia. He's also on thetheological advisory council for
the H.E.Butt Foundation, and hewrote a theological piece in
Echoes Magazine about the fourpart gospel.
I'm Marcus Goodyear here with myco host, Camille Hall-Ortega.
Today, we are talking about themeaning of life with Corey
Widmer and how our beliefs aboutthe meaning of life affect what
we do each day. Welcome to thepodcast, Corey.
Corey Widmer (02:15):
Thank you. I'm so happy to be here talking about
this little topic of the meaningof life thing.
Camille Hall-Ortega (02:21):
Yes.
Corey Widmer (02:22):
Very very happy to be with you you both.
Camille Hall-Ortega (02:24):
We're glad to have you. We try to keep the
the topics pretty narrow.
Marcus Goodyear (02:29):
Yeah. Yeah. You know, just a small thing. Just a
small thing.
Corey Widmer (02:32):
Small thing. Yes.
Marcus Goodyear (02:34):
So my son asked me once, "Why are we Christian?"
He was in high school, and Isaid, "Well, ultimately, we're
Christian because we were bornChristian." And that's probably
not the answer you're lookingfor. And I'm curious, Corey,
you're a pastor. What do youthink of that response from a
dad, and where should aconversation like that go next?
Corey Widmer (02:53):
There's a beautiful truth in that answer.
And, of course, the way that youmight dialogue with that answer
depends on your theologicaltradition and the brand of
Christian that you are. And so Iactually think there's something
really beautiful about saying wewere born Christian because in
in my tradition, we have areally high view of the church,
(03:16):
and we call the church thecovenant family. We're a
spiritual family. And, ofcourse, you're born into a
family.
And just like we're born into abiological family, we're born
into a spiritual family. And formany, we baptize our babies, and
we want our kids to hopefullynever remember a time when they
were not part of the churchfamily, and they did not know
(03:40):
never remember a time when theycouldn't remember that God loved
them and claimed them. In fact,growing up, my pastor,
Presbyterian pastor, whenever hewould see me, if I was away at
college, I'd come back. He'dsay, "There you are, the child
of the covenant." And
Marcus Goodyear (03:58):
That's intense.
Camille Hall-Ortega (04:00):
Awww.
Corey Widmer (04:00):
He called me a child of the covenant. So I
think there's somethingbeautiful about that, that your
son is a Christian because hewas born into a community that
claimed him as God's beloved. Onthe other hand, I might
challenge that answer just alittle bit. Because Jesus when
Jesus walked around, He was veryHe was very loving, but He was
(04:23):
very critical to one group ofpeople, and that was the
religious people. That was thepeople who just thought they
were they were special becausethey were born that way.
They were born into this tribeand this religion, and Jesus
challenged them deeply to sayparticipation in a religion is
never enough to push themtowards spiritual
transformation. I think we cannever fully settle with just
(04:46):
mere participation because Jesusalways pushes us to spiritual
transformation. So that's why Imight I might haggle with your
answer just a little bit.
Camille Hall-Ortega (04:56):
Yeah. I'm so glad that you talked about it
in that way because I think itis a beautiful sentiment, this
idea that we're born and Godloves us. He loved us already.
He loved us in the womb. Right?
He loved us before we wereknown. He knew us before anyone
else did. And so that's thatsort of beauty in that answer.
(05:19):
But, yes, it's good to sort of__I can imagine me as an
inquisitive kid going, can weunpack that a little bit? Right?
Corey Widmer (05:26):
Yeah.
Camille Hall-Ortega (05:26):
Can we unpack a little because, of
course, you know, as youmentioned, different traditions
have some of these details. Welook at them a little bit
differently. And so for me, Icome from a Baptist background
and now, nondenominational. Andso, yeah, we would say there's a
choice that has to be made.Right?
Corey Widmer (05:46):
Yeah.
Camille Hall-Ortega (05:47):
There's a choice that has to be made. And
so my parents' answer might looka little bit different, but I
think knowing that it's rootedin love and the love of God is
really beautiful.
Corey Widmer (06:03):
Yeah. Even though I grew up in a Presbyterian
church, I very much was alsoimmersed in the world of kind of
nondenominational, baptisticevangelicalism. And there was a
strong sense in that communitythat it is your choice. And I
remember people saying thingslike, just because you're born
in a garage doesn't make you acar. Right.
Just because you're born in abarn doesn't make you a sheep.
You know, just because you'reborn in a church family doesn't
(06:25):
make you a Christian. Andthere's some truth to that. And
yet I want to say drawing fromboth traditions, both the more,
I would say, liturgical reformtraditions and the
nondenominational traditions, wecan say that both things are
true, that we're born we shouldbe born knowing that we're
claimed by God, and we don'thave to do anything to earn
(06:47):
that. And yet we also know thatwe need to be a part of
partnering with God in ourspiritual transformation, and
that means surrendering to Himand inviting the Holy Spirit
into our lives and expecting aspiritual change that produces
fruit.
So, yeah. Yeah. I think this iswhy important we need all the
traditions, notjust stuck in one.
Camille Hall-Ortega (07:06):
That's right.
Marcus Goodyear (07:06):
True. True.
Camille Hall-Ortega (07:08):
Right.
Marcus Goodyear (07:08):
Yeah. To be fair to my son, I'm using him
he's gonna be so mortified thatI did this. But I'm using him as
a foil because I think what hewas he was really asking two
things in my mind. One of themwas why do we have to go to
church?
Corey Widmer (07:20):
Mhmm. Of course. I mean I asked that when I was his age too.
Camille Hall-Ortega (07:24):
Right. Right.
Marcus Goodyear (07:24):
Yeah. I mean, I'll be honest. I still ask that
question.
I just I do, you know? The otherquestion though, the deeper
question I think he was reallyasking was why are we committed
to this form of spiritualformation? Why are we continuing
to choose Christianity?
And that is obviously a muchdeeper conversation that he and
(07:44):
I are continuing to have. We'vetalked a lot about church more
than we have on many otherepisodes we've recorded so far,
which is super fun and I thinkin line with who we are as a
foundation. I read that thechurch is in decline in America
and we're talking about thesecommunities that have been so
important to us and why wechoose them. What do you think
(08:06):
it means for these communitiesto be in decline? And do you
even agree with that?
Corey Widmer (08:10):
I think I do agree with that. I mean, I think
there's a couple of differentways to unpack decline. What
does decline mean? I mean, onthe one hand, we do know that
literally the statisticians showus that the church is in
decline. I mean, twenty yearsago, 45% of people regularly
attend the church.
Ten years ago, 38%. Now 30%. So,I mean, that's that's a
(08:33):
significant decline over twentyyears, and we have every reason
to expect that decline willcontinue. So, yeah,
quantitatively, there has beendecline. But I also think you
could argue that qualitativelythere has been a decline. I
think that when I see theAmerican church, I often see a
(08:57):
church that, is declining in itsspiritual fervor and declining
in its integrity. I see thecaptivity to political idolatry.
I see shallow forms ofdiscipleship. I see reductionist
gospels.
I mean, I mean, there's there'sa lot of ways that like, when I
go to travel around the worldand I go to places that have
(09:19):
traditionally been seen as,like, the third world, I see,
like, a vibrant deepChristianity. Whereas what often
I see in America is a moreshallow form of it. And I think
we'll look back and see the waythat in the twentieth and
twenty-first century, the centerof Christianity really shifted
away from the traditionalChristian west and more into
places of Africa and Asia wheretraditionally we're seen as
(09:40):
missionary, places formissionaries to go. So I do
think there's a decline inAmerica, both in the quantity
and quality of Christians.
Camille Hall-Ortega (09:49):
And I imagine are you thinking, of
course, that those are related,that
Corey Widmer (09:54):
I think so.
Camille Hall-Ortega (09:55):
folks don't want to come to church if they
think it is causing dissension,or that people aren't practicing
what they preach or that theycan find the sort of support
they're looking for somewhereelse? Or what what do
you think about that?
Corey Widmer (10:11):
Certainly, Camille. I mean, we know that
millennials and Gen Z are arethe most inclined to leave
traditional institutional formsof church. And it isn't
necessarily because they don'tlove they don't have respect for
Jesus or they don't believe inJesus or they don't respect
spirituality. It's because manyof them are just disillusioned
(10:31):
with the institution of theAmerican church and what it is
certainly, some of it is the waythat it's been portrayed in the
media, but a lot of that is verytrue. It's true to to to form
and what the church has been andhow we've capitulated to a lot
of compromises.
Marcus Goodyear (10:45):
So if someone has lost faith in the church
like we're talking about, maybethey still self-identify as a
Christian, maybe not. What wouldyou say to them? Why should they
go? Why should they be part of achurch again? And also, what
should that look like? Or maybewhat does it look like?
Corey Widmer (11:05):
Well, you know, despite everything, despite what
the church has been, can be,despite its flaws, despite its
foibles, I would still encouragea person to become a part of a
(11:27):
church. I think thatChristianity is a communal
collective faith. It is notmeant to be practiced alone. The
pages of the New Testament andthe whole Bible are just
stirring with images andmetaphors of our collective
(11:48):
identity, you know, whether it'sthe body of Christ or, or that
we're part of a a wholecollective community that God
redeems. And I would even go sofar as to say we need one
another. We need a community notjust to know God, but to know
(12:10):
ourselves.
Camille Hall-Ortega (12:11):
Mhmm.
Corey Widmer (12:11):
And we can't fully know God. We can't fully know
even ourselves unless we'redeeply embedded within a
community of faith that isseeking to know and love God
together. So I would encourageanyone who is seeking, as hard
as it might be at times, to getget involved in the church.
(12:32):
Now you asked what that shouldlook like. I mean, I would I
would say to find a church, inwhich you can be not just a
consumer watching a really coolshow up at front, not just be an
observer, but to be acontributor. Andy Crouch has
this great phrase where he says,"We move from being consumers to
(12:54):
contributors, from consumers tocreators." And this is what part
of what it means to be made inGod's image is to be not just a
a person who passively sees, butwho actively contributes. And so
a church that where community iscentral, where we're not just
passively standing by, we'reparticipating in the life of the
(13:14):
community together, where wehave a sense of belonging, a
sense of shared purpose. Andthat often will mean that there
are very annoying and difficultpeople, but that's part of what
it means to be in the body ofChrist. So, you know, what do
you guys think?
Camille Hall-Ortega (13:30):
No. I think I think that's really good. I
think hearing the statistics, itfeels like it those statistics
beg sort of two questions, whichis, is church worth it? Right?
Is it a problem that thatdecline exists?
And I think for us as Christfollow followers and speaking to
your answer, the the answer isyes. That we, you know, we know
(13:53):
the importance of corporateworship. We know that the how
the body of Christ is meant towork. And so, yes, there's value
in being a part of a church. AndAnd so then the next question I
would ask, well, what what doyou do about that decline?
What does it look like to makemeaningful strides to improve
(14:13):
that decline? To turn it around?And I think exactly what you
were speaking to is has been myexperience that when you find a
community that can be reallyfruitful and intentional, it's
important not just to say, whatwhat can this place do for me?
(14:36):
But to say, what does it looklike for me to serve in this
place?
And I have found time and againthat when you begin to serve in
your church community is whenyou have the most meaningful
community yourself.
Marcus Goodyear (14:49):
Yeah. Especially when you serve in
your church community beyondyour church community.
Camille Hall-Ortega (14:54):
Sure. Together serving serving the
outside community together.
Marcus Goodyear (14:58):
Yeah. So when I when I think of church as a way
to gather- I'm an old Englishmajor nerd, so I love gathering
around the Bible and justreading scripture because I love
gathering around any book,especially a book that is good
enough to continue to be readtwo thousand years later. So I
like Bible study just becauseI'm a nerd, but I also really
(15:19):
like the pop up food marketsthat we do, the feed the
homeless that we do.
Corey Widmer (15:25):
100% agree with you, Marcus. And I and I think
so much of this relate we talkedabout the meaning of life
before. That's how you openthis. Like we're supposed to be
talking about the meaning oflife. Right? And so a lot of
this comes down to what youunderstand the church to be.
Camille Hall-Ortega (15:40):
Right.
Corey Widmer (15:40):
What you understand yourself to be. And
if your primary goal is to behappy and your primary goal is
to, you know, live a life ofpersonal fulfillment, then
church is gonna be there to helpme with my personal happiness
and personal fulfillment. And soI go there to get a product in
the same way that I would go toa spa or go to a club or
something. And then when I amnot satisfied with it anymore,
(16:00):
you know, I move on to find adifferent church or not at all.
But if the meaning of life is toparticipate with God in his
redemptive mission of allthings, to redeem all things,
and if he has created thischurch to join him in that
redemptive mission, then, gosh,to be a part of a church means
that I get to be a part of apeople who are on mission with
God for the redemption of allthings.
(16:22):
And that just, like, blows thedoors open. It means that I
can't not be human without thiswithout this community. Right? I
need to serve. I need to to beon mission. I need to be get
involved in the problems of theworld, because it's part of what
it means to be human.
Camille Hall-Ortega (16:38):
Even though it can get really messy.
Corey Widmer (16:41):
Oh, so messy.
Camille Hall-Ortega (16:41):
It can get really messy because because we
are human. Right? That so manytimes I hear stories of people
being disillusioned with thechurch, and really they're
disillusioned with people in achurch. Right? And so they go,
"This thing happened."
And it's really important.Right? These aren't things that
we can set aside and just say,like, la c'est la vie, you know,
(17:03):
that kind of thing. No. Thesethese are really important and
sometimes traumatic things forfolks. But it's because we are
flawed. We are fallen. We arenot Jesus. We just want to be as
much like Him as we can. Right?
And so we see that happening.And I know that for us, we say
hurt people hurt people. Right?That that many of us know that
(17:26):
the church can look like ahospital, and you're gonna find
people who are hurting. Andyou're one of those folks.
And a lot of times, hurt peoplehurt people, and so it can get
really messy. But it's, it's soimportant to note that it's
worth it, that the messiness isworth it.
Corey Widmer (17:45):
It is worth it.
Marcus Goodyear (17:47):
Yeah. Defining how it's worth it, I do find
continually to be a challenge,especially for people outside
the system. For me, whensomebody rejects the church
because of broken people, what Iunderstand them to be saying is
that this is a closed systemthat's defending itself. And
they want it to be somethingbigger.
(18:07):
It promises to be somethingbigger. And so when it becomes
insular, when it becomes abouttithes in order to keep the
building, in order to keep thekeep itself running,
self-perpetuation is notinspiring. And so there's the
they experience this differencebetween what the church says it
is and what they believe theywant it to be, which is, in my
mind the body of Christ thatliving all of us together living
(18:31):
out the teachings of Jesus inthe world today, which is a
great thing.
Corey Widmer (18:35):
Yeah.
Marcus Goodyear (18:36):
I don't know anybody of any faith who thinks
the teachings of Jesus are bad.That's a bit of an
overstatement, but not much. Notmuch. You hear a lot of people
talking about He's a goodteacher and all this. And so
people generally agree, thathe's good.
And yet, what we believe andwhat we do can feel so far
(18:56):
apart. And I'm not talking aboutjust, like, the superficial way
of thinking about hypocrisy. Imean, the system itself seems to
not be behaving as the body ofChrist in the world in ways that
are just disillusioning. So it'smore than just I can't get along
with the person in the pew twopews ahead of me. What do we do
with with a closed systemchurch?
Corey Widmer (19:17):
Yeah.
Marcus Goodyear (19:18):
What does it look like for the church to open
up?
Corey Widmer (19:20):
Well, in this I think what you're saying is
really important, Marcus,because you're saying there's a
difference between saying, Ihave challenges in church
because so and so person thereis annoying, and I have a hard
time with them and saying thatthere's something, like,
systemically broken or toxic orin turned in upon itself about
the system. And I do think thatthat is some that is a challenge
(19:40):
for the leaders of the churches,for people like me, for pastors
to really look at ourselves inthe mirror, to understand, you
know, how what are ways that wehave really, lost sight of the
New Testament vision of what thechurch is called to be and
really do, like, some hard workof of correction and, renewal
for this new age that we're in.So I really take what you're
(20:02):
saying seriously, and we'retrying to do that in different
ways in my own community. And Ithink there's many churches
around the country that areseeking to do similar things.
Camille Hall-Ortega (20:11):
Will you tell us what some of those
things are? I'm so curious aboutwhat it looks like to do work
that makes the church look andbe less divisive to folks who
are on the outside looking in.
Corey Widmer (20:26):
So one thing we've done- we're a large church.
We're, you know, over a thousandpeople. And so how do you help a
church like that become a churchin which people feel like they
belong and that they have ashared purpose? And so about
five or six years ago, we sortof came up with a new way to
organize the church. So wecreated 12 geographic parishes
(20:47):
around our city based on wherepeople live, and we tried to
make a bigger church muchsmaller.
And so in each parish, there's acouple hundred people, and we
reconfigured the way ourleadership works. So now leaders
are over each of these areas,and we our our small groups are
organized geographically. We'retrying to grow smaller. So we
might be growing as a church,but we wanna grow smaller. We
(21:07):
wanna get more in touch witheach other, more in touch with
our local communities.
Mission is abstract unlessyou're talking about your own
particular neighbors. And so wewant people together to love
their neighbors, care abouttheir neighborhoods, care about
the schools and the institutionsin their neighborhoods. So we're
trying to make community andmission smaller and more local,
(21:29):
and that has given people asense of belonging and a sense
of shared purpose, that youcan't get just like coming
sitting in a service andconsuming a good, sermon or
something.
Camille Hall-Ortega (21:41):
I love that. It sounds like you are
improving intentionality andintimacy. And I know when we've
talked about, I the phrase hasbeen used, I don't know if it's
an overstatement, but that wehave an epidemic of loneliness.
And so when people are seekingmeaningful relationships that
(22:01):
are not surface level, that godeep, where you really feel
known and you're able to knowothers, I'm sure plenty of folks
are looking for that in theirchurch community. And it sounds
like your efforts would helplead to that, would help lead
away from loneliness and andmore toward intention and
intimacy.
Marcus Goodyear (22:21):
Camille, that makes me wanna go to the David
Brooks clip that we've prepared.Last month, David Brooks was out
at Laity Lodge, the adultretreat center that the H.E.Butt
Foundation runs, and DavidBrooks is a New York Time
columnist. I guess, probably heoften appears on radio and TV
shows as the the thoughtfulconservative or used to be
(22:44):
anyway. And so he was he was notat Laity Lodge with a political
agenda, but it did come up justbecause that's his work.
And so, I'd like to play thislittle clip that we've pulled
from a talk he gave at the lodgeand just get your feedback on
it, Corey.
David Brooks (23:03):
And so you see these skyrocketing rates of of
mental health problems which areattached to politics, and that
gives people a sense ofpowerlessness. And so in my
view, what people are doing isthey feel a pain, they feel
lonely, they feel hopeless, theyfeel mean, and they want to find
a social therapy that will easetheir inner ache. And they
(23:27):
should be coming to faith, butthey're not by and large.
They're going to politics. Andpolitics is an attractive form
of social therapy because itgives you the illusion that you
have a sense of belonging.
I'm on team red or team blue.But you're not really in
community with people. You'rejust hating the same people
together. That's not community.Politics gives the the illusion
(23:51):
of a moral landscape.
I can understand the morality ofthe world because there's good
over here on my side and there'sevil over there on that side.
But as Solzhenitsyn said,"That's not a real moral
landscape. The line between goodand evil runs down every human
heart," Solzhenitsyn said. Itgives you the illusion of moral
action. I'm doing something forthe world.
But you're not sitting with awidow or helping the poor.
(24:13):
You're just being indignant infront of the TV screen. And so
it gives you all these illusionsthat it'll help you solve you
think you're gonna solve yourproblem. And it should be said
that people who are lonely,according to a researcher named
Ryan Streeter, people who arelonely are seven times more
likely to be active in politicsthan people who aren't lonely.
And so that says a lot aboutwhere our politics is.
Corey Widmer (24:37):
So good.
Marcus Goodyear (24:37):
He hit on belonging. He hit on loneliness.
He hit on community. I mean, somany things that we were talking
about.
Corey Widmer (24:44):
Yeah. I just love that. And what makes me wanna
listen to his whole talk- youknow what it reminds me of is
that humans desperately need tofeel belonging. They need to
feel heroic.
They need to feel a a sense ofgrand meaning to their lives.
But when you lose God, when asociety no longer has God within
(25:05):
its imminent frame, what do youturn to? People really a lot
turn to sex and turn to love.And one of the reasons why,
like, romantic love has becomesuch an idol in our society is
because of the loss of God. ButI think that I think what Brooks
is saying is that the same thinghas happened with politics, is
that as not only as our societyhas lost any sense of the
(25:27):
transcendence, but also as thechurch has dramatically declined
and no longer provides thatsense of shared belonging and
shared common purpose, politicshas been a very, very terrible
stand in.
It has given people you know,when they can't find
transcendence, they can't findmeaning, they can't find a sense
of shared purpose. Well, here'shere's an option. But as David
(25:49):
Brooks said, it actually sort ofundermines everything that we're
looking for in so many ways.It's a really beautiful
meditation that he gives there.
Camille Hall-Ortega (25:57):
I love what you're saying because at the
root of a lot of our searchingand striving is this need and
desire for belonging. And it'simportant that we know what it
looks like to try to fulfillthat in the church through God,
(26:22):
through community. Are weattempting to fill that need
with something that's healthy?If it's a shared hate that's not
gonna do it. That's not gonna doit. Right? That's just what we
heard at false community.
Corey Widmer (26:39):
And Christians have been really, like, diluted
and and I think led astray, inthis regard too, especially as
it comes to politics. I thinkthat while politics is certainly
one way that Christians could beinvolved in helping to influence
society, I would say it's not atall the best way and and maybe
(26:59):
not a favored way at all. Andwhen we rest our hopes for what
we want our country to be or theworld to be, on it, like,
political power and we, like,put our hopes in that, it
becomes no wonder, like, youhear people using, like, highly
almost eschatological language.Like, our life will be destroyed
(27:23):
if this candidate wins orAmerica hangs on this election.
I mean, that's just that's justfoolishness.
Camille Hall-Ortega (27:29):
Well, it's it's not biblical.
Corey Widmer (27:30):
Right? That's not all.
Camille Hall-Ortega (27:32):
Our hope is built on Jesus.
Corey Widmer (27:34):
Yeah, and yet when we throw our hopes within the
political sphere because wethink it'll somehow, like, help
us get this meaning and purposethat we're longing for, that's
what happens. We becomeidolaters.
Camille Hall-Ortega (27:44):
Mhmm.
Marcus Goodyear (27:45):
Politics is a way of thinking about power and
negotiating power.
Corey Widmer (27:50):
Yeah.
Marcus Goodyear (27:50):
And what I love about Christian faith is that it
flips that, you know, Jesus isthe servant. He gives up
himself. He empties himself forthe world around us and His,
when He rides into Jerusalem tojust follow the story out, He
(28:11):
knows that He's going into hisdeath. And it's only through
sacrifice, it's only throughdeath, it's only through giving
ourselves up that we find thething that is truly life.
Corey Widmer (28:22):
Mhmm.
Marcus Goodyear (28:23):
And I when I was talking to my son about
Jesus.
Camille Hall-Ortega (28:25):
Preach it today.
Corey Widmer (28:27):
That's the upside down down kingdom. That's
the upside down kingdom.
Marcus Goodyear (28:29):
Yeah. Christ is teaching us to give ourselves
up, to give up our identities. Imean, that is powerful. It is it
is irresistible and scary in away that I want to be part of
it. And so for me, the thechallenge is that I have this
belief that I want to be true.
And I don't even think mostlybeyond the implications of just
(28:50):
emptying myself and helping thethose around me empty
themselves, for for ourcommunity locally. But I want to
be part of this and I want thechurch to promote that. You
know? I want to see that in thechurch, and so often we fall
short of our own beliefs.
(29:11):
We fall short of of what we saywe want to do, and our systems
fall short of it too.
Camille Hall-Ortega (29:17):
And maybe that's related to how folks
interpret things. I know, Corey,you just wrote a great piece in
Echoes about the four partgospel. Will you talk a little
bit about that and how thatmight affect perspective?
Corey Widmer (29:37):
Yes. The Bible tells a big story with four
chapters, creation, fall,redemption, consummation. But
often we reduce the story,reduce the gospel to just the
middle two, the fall andredemption. And when we do that,
I really do think it changeseverything and I including how
we think about politics andthese things that we've been
(29:58):
talking about. I mean, one wayto look at it is that if you
have a two chapter gospel, ifall your gospel is just fallen
redemption, I'm a sinner and Ineed Jesus to save me, then your
posture towards the world isessentially inherently negative,
reactive.
(30:19):
You know, denouncing, critiquingwhat's bad. The world is
inherently bad and wicked. We'removing away from the world. We
resist, react, reject, renounce.So it's an inherently reactive
posture.
I think if you have a fourchapter gospel, then I think you
have a more redemptive posturewhere you're the world is a good
world that is broken, yes, butthat Jesus Christ has redeemed
(30:43):
through his death andresurrection, and he is coming
to consummate his the fruit ofhis work. And therefore, we move
towards the world. We affirm andcultivate what's good. We
instead of resisting, reacting,renouncing, we're renewing,
restoring, redeeming,resurrecting, regenerating. I
mean, these are a lot r words.Right?
Camille Hall-Ortega (31:05):
Right.
Corey Widmer (31:05):
And that just gives us a different posture in
the way that we handleeverything from politics to the
work of human labor to racerelations to everything. It just
changes the bigger story.
Marcus Goodyear (31:18):
In the in the article, you talk about
wholeness and shalom and that'sthe direction of scripture.
Shalom is a Hebrew word.
Corey Widmer (31:27):
I mean, I think a great definition is flourishing.
I know that's become sort of acatchphrase these days, but I
really think it's a beautifulword because it means to be a
person who is flourishing inevery way you could flourish.
Your life with God, your lifewith other humans, your life in
this beautiful creation,everything is is whole. You're
(31:47):
flourishing as a person.
Marcus Goodyear (31:50):
So we've been talking about the church giving
itself away. What does it looklike for us to approach the
church as a tool for helpingothers flourish? Not just
ourselves, but others. And howmuch responsibility do we have
to support our neighbor'scapacity to flourish?
Corey Widmer (32:07):
Well, I think we have- maybe the this is the
call. This is the beautiful callthat God has given us. I mean,
Jeremiah 29, 7-11 is a sectionof scripture that I love where,
the people of God had been takeninto exile in a foreign land,
and they didn't really wanna beinvolved in their community
(32:28):
because they're a bunch of, youknow, people that they hated.
And God through the prophetJeremiah comes to them and says,
actually, I want you to seek theshalom, the flourishing of your
neighbor because in theirflourishing is your flourishing,
which is kinda crazy. Right?
He says if you wanna flourish,you've you've gotta be involved
(32:48):
in your neighbor's flourishing.And Jesus says some very similar
things, in the Sermon on theMount when he calls his people
to be salt and light, to beleavening, to be fruitful. He
calls people to be peacemakers.He calls them to be those who
hunger and thirst for justice,for social righteousness in
their communities.
He's almost saying you've gottabe as just as hungry for your
(33:13):
neighbor's flourishing as youare for food and drink. I mean,
it's just beautiful. And so Ithink what that means is that
the church, we need to figureout ways to support people in
doing that work of offlourishing in their
communities, whether it meansempowering people to come
alongside the most vulnerable intheir neighborhoods and their
cities, or whether it meanshelping to heal, historic places
(33:36):
of injustice and oppression inAmerica. You know, that would
be, for example, in this longhistory of racial oppression in
our society and the ongoingeffects of that oppression. It
could mean getting involved insupporting people in their
everyday labor and the work oftheir hands, whether they're
teachers, educators, doctors,lawyers, tradespeople.
(33:58):
It could mean equipping peopleto be really good neighbors and
to pay attention to the needs oftheir neighbors. It could mean
getting people involved increation care and helping
holistically care for the Earth.It could mean equipping people
to share the good news of Jesusand how to articulate the true
good news that Jesus is offeringpeople, not just to go to heaven
(34:19):
when they die, but to berestored in their full humanity,
to be connected to God, tobe connected to others,
connected to the earth. So Ijust that's what the church is
called to do. We're on thisbeautiful mission of shalom,
mission of flourishing,empowering people to extend that
flourishing to our neighbors.
Camille Hall-Ortega (34:33):
I was just thinking all of those things, we
know that they are good. Andyet, most of them are pretty
hard for us because it's not ournature to do what God has called
us to do, which is to esteemothers higher than ourselves. To
think of your neighbor's needsas more important than your own
(34:55):
does not feel natural. Right?That's not something that comes
easily.
But there's a sort a sort ofbeauty in this incentive that
God is telling us. I'm tellingyou how it's supposed to be
because that's how it's best.And so, esteeming your neighbor,
thinking of your neighbor andhis or her needs above your own
(35:18):
will cause your life to be morefull, cause you to thrive, lead
to you flourishing. What a goodGod we serve.
Corey Widmer (35:28):
I know. Isn't that beautiful?
Camille Hall-Ortega (35:30):
Yeah.
Corey Widmer (35:30):
And it's to become like Jesus. Because Jesus is was
the ultimate lover of neighbor.I mean, look what He gave. He
gave everything. He gave hislife. He gave everything. And
like Marcus was saying earlier,the church will be the church
when we're a crucified church, across shaped church, a church
that looks like Jesus, a churchthat is taking all that we have,
all of our resources and ourpower, and is giving them away
(35:52):
for our neighbor. And I thinkwhat often people are seeing,
especially in politics, is ataking church, a church that
wants to take things forthemselves, power and resources
for themselves. And that is achurch that is obscuring Jesus,
because Jesus is one who gavehimself away.
Marcus Goodyear (36:08):
Yeah. And yet we're reading the same Bible.
Right? So how does it happen?How does it happen that we have
this book that teaches a betterway of living, like demonstrably
better, such that people whodon't believe in it can
recognize the wisdom in the bookand it's like we don't know how
(36:30):
to read. Maybe we're just notreading. I don't know.
Camille Hall-Ortega (36:35):
That brings up a possibility.
Corey Widmer: That brings up some complicated (36:37):
undefined
questions of biblicalinterpretation. How two people
can read the same thing and comeup with very different answers.
And this is where I think weneed the help of the great
teachers of the church and theway that the church has
interpreted the scriptureswisely throughout the ages and,
and being very aware of our owncultural captivity that leads us
(37:00):
to, I think, blindness and notseeing what the truth of the
scripture is really saying. Andwe need each other for that. We
need our traditions for that. Weneed the Holy Spirit for that.
Camille Hall-Ortega (37:11):
And so maybe but we're talking about
the meaning of life. Right? Ithink we've touched on all
aspects of that question forsure. Right? But truly that
we're talking about loving Godand loving our neighbor, and
that's it.
Marcus Goodyear (37:26):
That's right.
Camille Hall-Ortega (37:27):
That's what that's the picture God painted
for us of what it looks like tolive life more abundantly.
Corey Widmer (37:35):
You know, I just love that, Camille. And it
reminds me just to maybe endwith a little story. I visited a
little old lady, who was ahundred and one. She was the
oldest person in our church, andshe was in a tiny little room in
a home. And she was very ill,and, she could barely move.
(38:00):
And I sat with her, before acouple of days before she died
there in that room. And everynurse that came in, she smiled
and greeted them by name, everynursing assistant. When I left
and walked outside, all thenurses were like, we're just so
sad that she's dying, becauseshe's just been such a joy. She
(38:21):
asks us all how we're doing. Sheknows our names of our family
members.
She brings joy into this unit.And it just was so powerful for
me because, you know, we heardebates even about euthanasia
and about people losing theiragency and their sense of
purpose, and they can no longermeaningfully contribute to
(38:42):
society because they're too old.What's the purpose of them even
using up resources anymore? Buthere's this little old lady with
a frail body barely able tomove, and she is fulfilling the
meaning of life in that littleroom more than most any other
person that I knew. She isloving God, and she is loving
her neighbor, and she's doing itin a highly limited way, but
(39:02):
she's doing it in a powerful,beautiful way.
She's so, I mean, what thatmeans is we can we can fulfill
the meaning of life. Whateverour limitations, whatever our
restrictions. If the meaning oflife is to love God and love
neighbor, and we do that throughthe the the the sacrifice of
Jesus for us and his life in us,then we can do that whenever,
(39:22):
wherever, however. That's ourcalling.
Camille Hall-Ortega (39:26):
So good.
Marcus Goodyear (39:27):
Yeah. Powerful story. And in as much as we're
looking toward the end ofthings, I think what a beautiful
end to look toward to to be ableto to be like the woman who you
were with.
Corey Widmer (39:40):
Mhmm. I wanna be like her.
Camille Hall-Ortega (39:43):
Yes. Thank you for that story.
Marcus Goodyear (39:44):
Right. Yeah. Thank you.
Thank you so much for joining ustoday. We really, really
appreciate everything you do forthe foundation and for the
representative you are.
Corey Widmer (39:54):
Thanks, guys. It's a joy to be with you. Thank you
for your work.
Camille Hall-Ortega (39:57):
Thanks. Same to you. Bye bye.
Marcus Goodyear (40:01):
Thank you for listening to The Echoes Podcast.
We will include links to DavidBrooks' audio from Laity Lodge
and Corey Widmer's article inEchoes magazine. And while
you're reading his article onEchoes, be sure to subscribe to
our print magazine. It's freeand it's beautiful, and it comes
once a quarter. So it doesn'teven clutter up your mailbox.
The Echoes Podcast is writtenand produced by Camille
Hall-Ortega, Rob Stennett, andme, Marcus Goodyear. It's edited
(40:25):
by Rob Stennett and Kim Stone.Our executive producers are
Patton Dodd and David Rogers.Special thanks to our guest
today, Corey Widmer. The EchoesPodcast is a production brought
to you by the H.E.ButtFoundation.
You can learn more about ourmission and vision at hebfdn.org
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