Grace and Grit | With Ashley Cleveland - The Echoes Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Camille Hall-Ortega (00:00):
My grandmother, Laureen Loretta

(00:02):
Simpson Tinel, was born in theDeep South, Pickens, Mississippi
in 1930. She watched as thewhites only school bus passed by
her home. She made the trek toschool on foot with her brother
and sister each weekday. Whenshe got older, she knew she
loved helping others, so shedecided to be a nurse. She
applied and got into a nursingprogram states away.

(00:22):
She moved to complete theprogram, but it wasn't long
before the school told her thatthere had been a change. They
could no longer accept her as astudent because they felt the
black students were bringing theschool down. Undeterred, she
returned to the South anddecided to pursue a career in
education. She studied at RustCollege, one of the oldest
historically black colleges, andshe became an elementary school
teacher. She had discovered herpassion.

(00:45):
During her career, she taught ata pair of Memphis, Tennessee
public schools, grade second,third, and fifth, and worked
until retirement. My grandmothermarched with Doctor Martin
Luther King Jr during thesanitation workers strike,
"Demanding that this city willrespect the dignity of labor."
She sat at Mason Temple in 1968and listened to Doctor King's

(01:09):
"I've been to the mountaintopspeech the night before he was
killed. "We've got somedifficult days ahead, but it
really doesn't matter with menow because I've been to the
mountaintop."
She fought and clawed andovercame obstacles too numerous
to name. My grandmother hadgrit. This sometimes seemingly

(01:31):
indefinable quality that drivesthose who have it to persevere,
to be courageous, and to pursuetheir desires with passion. Do
you know someone that exhibitsgrit? Someone who reached what
seemed like rock bottom andfound what they needed to escape
what others saw asinsurmountable?
I'm Camille Hall-Ortega, andthis is the Echoes Podcast. On

(01:53):
today's show, we're welcomingAshley Cleveland. She's a
three-time Grammy award winningmusical artist who released nine
critically acclaimed albums. Shewas the first woman nominated
for the best rock gospel albumGrammy, and she's the only
person to win the award threetimes. Ashley is also the author
of a memoir called Little BlackSheep, which details her journey
to rock bottom with alcohol anddrugs and how she overcame it

(02:16):
all.
We're thrilled to welcome Ashleyto the podcast today. I'm here
with my co-host Marcus Goodyear.Welcome, Ashley.

Ashley Cleveland (02:23):
Thank you. Good to be here.

I can just say just hearing a little bit
about your life and all you'vegone through and your
accomplishments, I probablycould have a million questions
for you, but we'll keep it tojust a few for today. I'm
wondering first about yourmemoir. You wrote a memoir about
your life, and you didn't setout to do that initially. In

(02:46):
fact, you described a number ofpeople who pushed you and
encouraged you to write aboutyour life, including by the way,
Olga Samples-Davis, has been aguest on our podcast. I'd love
to hear about that situation andabout the people who encourage
you to sort of get out of yourcomfort zone.

It wasn't like people were banging on my door
saying, you have got to write abook. So, but, Olga, and you
know this, because you've hadher here, her personality and
her her light counts for about20 people. So, you know, I just
saw myself strictly as asongwriter. And I'm such, I love

(03:28):
books so much. I'm such a devoutreader.
I just thought nobody needsanother book, certainly not from
me. And it just also feltdaunting, just the the idea of
it. But, you know, Olga justkinda hounded me for a couple of
years. It, then, it was justreally a process of surrender.
You know? I kinda surrendered tothe Lord first. I just said, if

(03:52):
I actually have something tosay, you have to give me the
first line. If you give me thefirst line, I think I can find
my way in. And and I felt likeHe did that. So that was one
step.
And then I, you know, I found anagent who, when I gave her my
first chapter, acted like Ihadn't given it to her, just

(04:13):
kind of rolled her eyes anddidn't say anything. And then
she left me a message a coupleof days later and said, "Hello,
Ashley. This is Kathleen." Shesaid, "Well, when you handed me
your chapter, I thought, great,just what the world needs,

(04:34):
another memoir." She said, "Butthen I read it and I loved it."
So send me another chapter. Sothings like that kept happening
where I just, you know, if atany time I had gotten a hard no,
I just, I don't know that I hadthe confidence to keep going
with it, but I just, doors keptopening.

Well, I'm very curious because we alluded
to it in the intro, but ofcourse your memoir captures a
lot of tough times in your life.Been through a lot of hard
things. I'm wondering if you cantell us about some of the
obstacles that you experiencedin your life.

Well, to me, it's kind of, the memoir is
around, recovery from fairlysevere addiction and then coming
to faith and a very kind ofunusual, colorful family,
southern family. So and all ofthose things kinda came to play

(05:34):
in my own story. I just think, Iwas born in the South in
Knoxville, Tennessee. I was bornto two alcoholic parents who, on
the surface, were veryaccomplished and beautiful and
were decidedly performanceoriented. So it was hard to

(05:58):
tell. Like, from the surface,you couldn't tell anything was
wrong. But I, you know, therewas a whole lot that was wrong,
and I think I just felt it morethan anything. But children are
so, you know, they tend toabsorb the feeling of a
household and blame themselvessometimes. At least I did.

(06:23):
And so, you know, eventually myfamily was something of an
alcoholic dynasty, so it wasdefinitely in the blood. You
know, late in my teens, I kindof picked up the mantle and put
it on, so. And started drinkingand using. But I also, it's a

(06:43):
funny thing. It's like, youknow, at the same time I
discovered music and there, youknow, I was kind of the
scapegoat of my family andscapegoats will often act out
the pain and suffering of thefamily, you know, in sort of
attention grabbing ways.
I got a lot of attention, butover time it became pretty

(07:06):
negative attention. And I justhad a hard time finding any
value in myself. And then Ipicked up, you know, somebody
taught me like five guitarchords, and I realized that I
had a gift for playing music andsinging. So, playing music and

(07:30):
particularly playing otherpeople's songs who were all
older than I was and had moreexperience, it was a vehicle
for, for a lot of the hardshipin my family. And, so that was a
gift to me.
But also, you know,simultaneously, once I hit the
end of my teens, you know, I wasin bad shape drinking and so,

(07:56):
you know, they say in the roomsof AA that, you know, on some
level drinking kind of kept usalive until we were ready to get
sober, which sounds so bizarre.

Wow.

But in a way it's true. It's like the
destructive behavior is kind ofhow you keep yourself on the
planet. But I would say for me,was music and drinking.

Marcus Goodyear (08:20):
I love this idea that you were singing songs
from other people. In your bookyou talk about how you try to
fill your head with voices thataren't your own, and you talk
about specifically memorizingscripture. And when you're
writing a book though, that isvulnerability that's coming from
you. How, was that difficult todo? And, I mean, you were

(08:44):
sharing both your stories andthe stories of those around you.
What was that like?

That's a really interesting question,
Marcus, because here's thething, This is just me. I have
no problem being transparent.I'm almost transparent to a
fault. Like, I could definitelyleave a few things out. You know
what I'm saying?

That's a superpower.

But vulnerability is really hard for
me. So there's an element of,you know, it might even be
borderline exhibitionism. Idon't know. You know what I'm
saying? Kind of like, don't mindtelling people the truth of my
life, but vulnerability to me issomething else. Is putting

(09:29):
yourself in a place where yourisk love or rejection.

Or judgment.

Yeah. And I'm sure people did judge me, or do
judge me, you know, for puttingmy story out there. But at the
same time, that for some reasondidn't feel vulnerable to me.
And also, by the time I wrotethe book, I'd been sober a good
little while. And it wasshocking to me, the stigma that

(09:59):
remains.
And I mean to say remains,because to this day-

That's surprising.

It is surprising because people look
at drug and alcohol addictionthrough a moral lens. Still. You
know, like, if you were a betterhuman being, you wouldn't be
behaving this way. They wouldn'tsay it in so many words, but

(10:28):
it's still kind of there. Theydon't put it in an illness
category, a straight up they putit in a different category. It's
funny, now I've experienced itgenerationally in my family,
like I've experienced it with myparents, and with myself, but
also with my oldest child. Thepower of the disease can take

(10:53):
your breath away. Like, it isthe big dog in the room if it's
active, and overcoming it is notreally an option, not for me.

Yeah. Yeah. But now you've talked about how
you got, you said you got soberand of course you're sober now.
Can you take us along for thatjourney a little bit of, you
know, at the end of your teens,you said, you know, highly
addicted. And how did, how didyou get sober?

I got sober because prior to getting sober,
I got pregnant and I wasn'tmarried to my daughter's father.
And, you know, I'm not going tosay I was alone because my
family really stepped up for me,but there is still a loneliness

(11:45):
when you realize you're kind ofin this on your own. And also, I
knew that I was in bad shape.And I also knew I didn't have
the slightest idea how to parentor be a mother. I just didn't
know.
And I knew I'd grown up in afamily where there were really

(12:08):
severe challenges. And so I waspretty terrified to have this
baby, but I was also terrifiednot to have it. I had grown up
in a family that went to church,but even that is complex,
especially in the South where itis much a social construct as it

(12:30):
is anything. You know, it'swhere it's your status in the
community where you go tochurch. And maybe you've had an
encounter with the living God,and maybe not.
But surrendering to God withthis pregnancy was like the
beginning of, I don't know howto do this. And I thought He

(12:53):
might kill me.

You thought God would kill you?

Yes. Everything was on the table,
because I realized I didn't knowwho I was dealing with. And I
thought I was just a crummyexcuse for a person, you know?

Camille Hall-Ortega: Oh, that would be a really dark (13:10):
undefined
place.

Very dark. Very dark. And I'd done some
very dark things. And I, youknow, I was kind of a crummy
excuse for a person at that, youknow, I mean, I think we all
carry so much darkness and lightin us, you know, we're all of
the above. And, you know, when Ihad her, I had a c-section and

(13:32):
my mother came into my recoveryroom and I happened to just be
the only person having surgerythat day in this little hospital
in Northern California, so I wasin there by myself and I'm
laying there and I don't knowwhat's happened. I just saw her
very briefly, and they put alittle hat on her. And my mother

(13:54):
comes in and says, she is sobeautiful. She's perfect. And I
said, perfect? And she said, oh,yeah, she's just doing great.
And then my mom left, and I'msitting there laying there
thinking, "How can that be? Howcan she be perfect?" It just
didn't even make any sense tome. And I felt like that was my

(14:16):
first experience of the God thatI feel that I belong to now.
That, you know, it's almost likeHe kind of pulled back the
curtain and said, See, I'm notwho you think I am.

Oh, that's so powerful. That's so powerful.
Yeah.

Yeah. And I wish I could say, I never drank
again, and I got sober as soonas- it was another two years.
But the thing is that I left thehospital knowing two things. I
knew I was loved, and I didn'tknow why. But that love just, I
kept coming back to, I think,whoever God is, that He loves

(14:57):
me. And so I was able finally tosurrender. I guess that's a very
long winded answer to yourquestion about how did I get
sober? I finally just said, Icannot do this.

So is grit something that's born out of
surrender?

So people think grit, I think this is a
really interesting question,because people think grit is
like a will to survive, and itcan be, it is. But also, our
illness or our behavior in ourillness is often described as
self will run riot. So for me,to surrender takes an enormous

(15:44):
amount of courage. And to standdown and not think that I know-
Like, I was my own best counsel,which was horrible. Like, I
wasn't fit to counsel aninanimate piece of furniture,
like, let alone me.

Gosh, there's so much there to unpack,
but I know you have spoken aboutyour faith you've said, you were
in a dark place and you overcamethese obstacles and you talk
about how God has used thebrokenness. Can you tell us a
bit more about how you see goodcoming from those obstacles and

(16:25):
how God has used yourbrokenness?

One of the things I do now is spiritual
direction. And I go to thismonastery in Kentucky where I go
for my own silent retreats, butI also lead silent retreats. And
it's a, it is a passionistconvent. And, the nuns are all

(16:47):
cloistered. They devote theirlives to praying for people and
also to connecting with Jesus inhis suffering and death.
Their whole life is devoted to-And so you go and every painting
on the wall, every bit, everystatue, all the iconography,

(17:10):
it's all pretty bloody. It's allaround the passion. And yet, and
so we got to meet them once, andthey were so joyful. And they
were kind of, they were funnyand kind of, they were, you
know, they were kind ofrascally. And that really
connects with that whole idea ofgrit.
Like, I just think a lot aboutthe call to meekness. And people

(17:34):
think that's kind of like a wimpor a victim or a baby or
whatever you want to attach tothat. But to me, that's the
strongest posture that there is.Which is such a picture of Jesus
who had all the strength in theworld and yet chose to set it

(17:57):
aside and to let other people doto him what they did. And I
think in my brokenness, like Heidentifies with me in my
brokenness because of hisbrokenness.
And I identify with other peoplein their brokenness because I'm

(18:20):
a broken person. And it's notalways perfect. Like, I can get
judgy just like anybody else.But I know that whatever
compassion I have, whatevermeekness and willingness to
decrease and take the lowerrung, you know, to stand down

(18:41):
with people, that is because ofthat. That is because of the
brokenness in me.

Yeah, that is so interesting to think about
this idea of, it feels soobviously Christian, but it
hadn't really occurred to methat grit is coming from a place
of humility.

Yeah.

That strength comes from humility, which is
kind of the obvious Christianway I think of this. But it
makes me wonder if sometimeswhat I think of is when I'm not
having grit or when I don't haveperseverance, it's because my
ego is getting in the way. Andthen...

Well, for us as Christ followers, yeah, it
would be that you're trying todo something in your own
strength. God tells us that Hewould get the glory, right? That
it's through him. And so there'sthis strength in admittance of
our weakness.

Yeah. When I finally went, you know, I got
hospitalized a couple of yearslater. And the first go around
with me, I started recovering in1985, but then, you know, I
still kind of, I still hadenough of a rebel yell in me to
where I did it my way. Ithought, "Well, I'll do this

(19:57):
part, but I won't do that part.And I'm going to do this, but I
won't do that." And, "I knowbest."
And so when my husband and I gotmarried, he's not, he's not an
addict. So I just, you know,that crazy thinking started up
in my head where I thought, oh,I've had so much therapy and
recovery stuff and church, and Ibet you I could drink. I bet you

(20:23):
I could drink moderately And soright, you know, with an
addict's talent for timing, Irelapsed right before we got
married, and, drank off and onfor another six years. And that
time I was trying to prove Icould do it, like, and be like

(20:46):
other people. You know, but thatwas, I'm really fortunate I got
through that. And the greatthing about that was I realized
that I wasn't like other people.Like, for me, even when I was
controlling it, even on the dayswhen I could keep it together,
it was all I ever thought about.It was like this constant

(21:08):
plotting and scheming.
Like I had two drinks yesterday,can I have three today? Just
that kind of nonsense going on.It was like a full length series
in my head and it never everended. And then at that point,

(21:28):
once again, I felt like the Lordjust said, "Why don't you give
that to me?" And I totally hadgotten myself back into a place
where I said, "I cannot facethis world without a bottle. I
can't do it. It's too harsh of aplace."
But once again, I knew who I wasdealing with well enough. It's

(21:53):
not like I totally know the Lordat all, but I knew that He had
done so much more for me than Icould have ever hoped for that I
just said, I can't do this. Idon't even want to.
But if you want to, you can giveme the willingness. And the
great thing about that for mewas when I went back into the

(22:14):
rooms of AA, I went on a veryordinary day, like no disasters
had happened. I was not beingdriven by pain and misery. It
was just I got up one day andthought, I'm going to go to an
AA meeting. And something hadshifted in me where I thought,
"I'm just going to follow everysuggestion and I'm just gonna do

(22:38):
what they say do," which is notmy nature, and I don't even like
it, but I'm gonna do it anyway.
You know, that was almost twentyeight years ago, so it was good.

Yeah, beautiful. There's so much to
unpack that you shared, but whatreally stood out to me was your
discussion of story and theimportance of story. And I know
we have an archive clip thatwe'd love to play. Marcus, will
you tell us more about it?

There was a very good storyteller who used
to come to Laity Lodge namedMadeleine L'Engle. She wrote a
book, a wonderful little sciencefiction book called A Wrinkle in
Time. And she came starting in,I think the 70s and just came
out to the Lodge. The Lodge isour adult retreat center, which
is sponsored by the H.E.ButtFoundation, which sponsors this

(23:28):
podcast. And she is talking withus in the Great Hall, where
speakers speak, where youyourself, Ashley, have spoken at
Laity Lodge. And she's talkingabout story.

Madeleine L'Engle (23:43):
Because we're human and finite, there are
things we simply are not goingto understand and that's all
right. It is all right also toask the questions that don't
have answers. As people havealways told stories rather than
answered questions as they'vesearched for truth. Our ancient

(24:03):
forebears sitting around thecampfire at night told the story
of their day so that they wouldknow what their day meant. What
was the truth of the mammothhunt or the roar of the cave
line or falling in love?
And bards and troubadoursthroughout the centuries have,
have sung the story of the dayso that people would know what

(24:23):
their day is about to givemeaning to the events of human
life. I believe that we we readstories. We go to the movies in
order to find out more about theendeavor of all of us to be
human.

Oh, I'm with her all the way. Well, because
I'm a storyteller, you know?

That's right.

You're a troubadour.

I am. And to me, living the questions is so,
so much more interesting thantrying to nail everything down
with an answer, you know? And itjust makes the space broader. To

(25:07):
me, it's the story that gives usthe opportunity to see other
people and to see otherperspectives. And, you know,
whereas if I'm telling yousomething factually, you may be
interested, you may not,especially if it's not how you

(25:31):
see it.
But if I tell you a story andall of a sudden something
catches you, then we may havesomething to talk about. You
know, if I bring it into thespiritual direction realm, a lot
of times, you know, people cometo spiritual direction- Well,
now it's sort of, it's sort ofentered the consciousness of a

(25:54):
lot of people of faith. Somepeople come-

More mainstream?

Yes, a little more, not totally, but much more
than it used to be. But somepeople come for curiosity, but
most people, if they're gonnacommit to that and come, they
either have a relationship withGod that is meaningful to them
and they want to go deeper, orthey had a relationship and they

(26:20):
think somehow they've lost itand they don't know why. Or
their faith, a lot of times,especially like, I feel like
we're kind of in a sea of changeculturally. A lot of people come
because the faith of theirchildhood, they're leaving it

(26:41):
and it terrifies them. Orbecause they don't know where
they're gonna land.
Don't know if they'll have anyfaith at all. Like, those are
huge questions and such bigconcepts. But if you bring them
into their day or their week andjust talk about just the rhythms

(27:03):
of their life and just supportthem as they, you know, you
just, you figure, hopefully I'masking good questions, but when
they start to see the presenceof God in their lives, that
changes things.

I love this clip because it makes me think
of this, the notion ofstorytelling as sense making.

Right.

That people are sharing stories and telling
stories to make sense of thingsthat don't make sense, didn't
make sense before. But I lovewhat you brought in also,
Ashley, where you said it's alsoa way of finding commonality and
I think that's beautiful. Wetalked quite a bit about your

(27:46):
struggles with addiction, but Iread a note that you wrote to
your fans and supporters yearsago about the obstacle of losing
your voice. Can you talk to us alittle bit about that?

So around eight years ago, my voice just
completely started failing onme. And, you know, and I'd only
ever had one career. And, youknow, I had jobs before that,
but I think I was fired fromevery single one of them. So, I
mean, not a promising employee,let me tell you that right and

(28:22):
so, nor did I want the jobs. SoI think for me, it was beyond
devastating. So I started seeingall these vocal coaches. I had
disasters on stage, like a bunchof them. So it just became the
place that I had felt mostcomfortable and most happy being

(28:45):
suddenly became dangerous to me.
Then, you know, it's like theworst thing that can happen for
a musician or a singer is totense up. So that's, so over
time, that's how I fell intospiritual direction. Like when I
first, when somebody firstsuggested that I look into it,

(29:09):
wasn't even sure I knew what itwas. So it wasn't like a burning
desire, but I had this tinylittle yes in my soul where I
just thought, I don't know ifthis is right for me, but it is
something I want to learn alittle more about. And then, you
know, I was working with allthese coaches.
So, you know, over time I endedup with this pastoral job,

(29:32):
becoming a spiritual director,the Lord opened up all these new
avenues in my life. And then Ikind of figured out how to sing
again in in the voice that Ihave now. So it kinda gave it
all back to me, which is sosweet.

Yeah. But it's more overcoming. Right? But
more surrender. I think it'ssurrender.

You have to accept, like I don't have all
the facility and all the bellsand whistles I used to, I don't
have the range, but I still havethe emotion and the power. And
so my thing was, I'm not goingto do it unless I can start to
have fun again. And I've startedto have fun playing again. Then
as soon as I figured out I coulddo that, it's not like I'd let

(30:17):
my agent go a while ago. Butthen the phone started ringing
and people started booking me.So I thought, well, I guess I
can do this.

There's a beauty in that pivot, right? And
it harkens back to us talkingabout God making something out
of brokenness. It's making methink of what I mentioned in the
intro about my grandmother. Shehad a fascinating life. But
yeah, just early on she wasfaced with being told no.
And for reasons out of hercontrol, right? Where she's

(30:49):
going, I got accepted into thisschool. And now you're saying,
I'm guilty by associationbecause of the color of my skin.
And so I'm headed back fromCalifornia back to the South,
right? So I think we are seeingthis through line, to me, I will
say, of the grit that youexhibit.
And I think it's this beautifulthing of what you've said,

(31:12):
surrender, of kind of the art ofthe pivot, the amazing passion
that you have, and the drive.And so I I think it's beautiful.
And the fact that you're able toshare your story to encourage
others is huge.

I mean, what an idea that no has
possibilities to it. You know?
And I love that story about yourgrandmother. I mean, you know,
we only live our own storiesbecause that's what we know, but
I just think, God, that was sucha brutal no. And so you just

(31:50):
think, me, I might've just laydown and taken it, but she
didn't and just saw thepossibility elsewhere. And I
really think that is very muchthe mark of how the Lord has
worked in my life.

Camille, when you talk about your grandmother,
I have to say that there's kindof this dark side to grit if
it's misused. Not in the wayyou've talked about it, Ashley,
but this sense that had she notovercome, it would have somehow
been her fault.

Like a mark on a person. That's such a great
point. Like a mark against aperson. Yeah. And in our work,
we see, you know, we have ourcommunity engagement work that a
lot of it takes place in SanAntonio.
Ashley, I'm sure you've seensome of that work. And we talk
about safety nets and aboutpeople being born in different
zip codes and how their outcomesare associated with just the zip

(32:43):
code that they live in, thatthey might have a decades
difference in life expectancybecause of the opportunities
that are varied by the placethey live or by the color of
their skin or by the businessesthat surround them as they walk
to school. We certainly canacknowledge that there's so much

(33:06):
at play here. Ashley, we havecovered a lot of things, but I
have to say, I'm very curious.You have spoken about your
spiritual advising, but I wonderyou are still producing music.
And I know I've gotten to readabout you and your husband's
work. I'm wondering, what's onthe horizon for you? Is there

(33:27):
anything that we could look outfor?

Well, you know, I'm not sure I'm going to
continue recording. That shipmay have sailed for me, but my
husband's very busy. He'sproducing and recording. But
between church work and being inschool and traveling and
speaking and playing, I've gotas much as I can deal with. But
I have found my favorite thingright now is writing sermons.

Yeah. I've gotten to listen to

Thank you for listening. Oh my gosh.

Camille Hall-Ortega: I knew from your memoir that you (34:00):
undefined
write beautiful prose. Obviouslywe know you have beautiful song
lyrics, you write beautifulprose, but your sermons are
lovely. I encourage people.We'll put it in the show notes.
Encourage people togo give it a listen, yes.

That's so nice. Well, I, it's so fun. It's
like another way to get lost inwriting. You know? All I ever
wanted was to live a creativelife, you know?
So I feel like whatever I'mdoing, as long as that's there,
I'm having a good time on somelevel. And it does feel very

(34:32):
meaningful to me. Like, I'vealways sort of been an outlier
in the church world. So now tobe up in the middle of
everything is kind of hilariousand very unexpected to me. But
it's been wonderful too to bepart of a body and to really get
to know the body, you know, writlarge, also individuals, and to

(34:55):
get to be part of their livesand their families' lives in a
way that's meaningful.
And, you know, I think I've beengood for them, but I know
they've been super wonderful forme.

Ashley, I think that's a great place for
us to wrap up. We're so gratefulto have had you on the show
today. Thank you. Thank you foryour time.
The Echoes Podcast is writtenand produced by Marcus Goodyear,
Rob Stennett, and me, CamilleHall-Ortega.
It's edited by Rob Stennett andKim Stone. Our executive
producers are Patton Dodd andDavid Rogers. Special thanks to

(35:29):
our guest today, AshleyCleveland. In addition to the
Echoes Podcast, we welcome youto subscribe to Echoes Magazine.
You'll receive a beautiful printmagazine each quarter, and it's
free.
You can find a link in our shownotes. The Echoes Podcast and
Echoes Magazine are bothproductions brought to you by
the H.E.Butt Foundation. You canlearn more about our vision and
mission at hebfdn.org.

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Grace and Grit | With Ashley Cleveland

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Grace and Grit | With Ashley Cleveland