We live in a difficult time. People have their opinions about how to solve problems, but distrust runs deep. People make promises—especially our politicians—but they can’t always deliver on those promises. In our season one finale, bestselling author and columnist David Brooks joins The Echoes Podcast to explore what’s really missing—and how we might find it again. Brooks helps us see that what’s broken in our world is not simply political, but spiritual and relational. He shares stories of moral formation and vulnerability, and together we practice the simple but powerful act of asking good questions. Along the way, we reflect on the limits of AI, the enduring power of art, and why overinvesting in friendship might just be the hope we need.
David Brooks is the author of The Road to Character, The Second Mountain, and How to Know a Person. A columnist for The New York Times and The Atlantic, he’s known for exploring the intersection of politics, culture, and morality.
Mentioned in this episode:
- The Road to Character and How to Know a Person by David Brooks
- East of Eden by John Steinbeck
- The Gift by Lewis Hyde (referenced contextually)
- Ronald Reagan’s address at the Laymen’s Leadership Institute in 1974 (excerpted clip begins at 6:50).
- “Remembering Jim Lehrer” on PBS
Subscribe to Echoes Magazine at hebfdn.org/echoes/subscribe/ to receive a beautiful, free print magazine each quarter.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Marcus Goodyear (00:00):
It is a strange time to read the news in our
country. Everything feels like acrisis, as if the world is
crashing down around us.
News Clip (00:08):
Key political partnership is imploding in
spectacular fashion tonight...
Racing tonight after sweepingimmigration raids sparked
protests and plagues...
...after Israel warned it isconsidering a strike on Iran.
Marcus Goodyear (00:19):
And in moments like that, it's tempting to look
to politics for answers. Left,right, center, whatever. But
what if we've been askingpolitics to do something it was
never meant to do? New YorkTimes bestselling author David
Brooks, our guest today, says itlike this.
David Brooks (00:33):
What people are doing is they feel a pain and
they should be coming to faith,but they're not, by and large.
They're going to politics.
Marcus Goodyear (00:42):
Maybe you felt let down by leaders from both
sides. Maybe you've been waitingfor the next person in power to
fix what feels broken, but deepdown, we know this repair work
isn't really political. It'sspiritual. It's relational. We
are in the middle of a moral andsocial crisis, and it's one that
runs deeper than any campaign orpolicy.
I'm Marcus Goodyear from theH.E.Butt Foundation, and this is
(01:04):
The Echoes Podcast. On today'sepisode, we welcome our guest
David Brooks. He is the authorof six books, including The Road
to Character. He's a columnistat The New York Times and The
Atlantic, and he's a regularcontributor to NPR, PBS, and The
Wall Street Journal. His TEDTalk has been viewed more than
5,000,000 times.
This week, David Brooks joins usto discuss not parties or
(01:24):
platforms, but the courage tolead a life of meaning. I'm here
with my co-host, Camille HallOrtega.
Camille Hall-Ortega (01:30):
Hey, Marcus. How are you?
Marcus Goodyear (01:32):
Great. David, welcome to the Echoes Podcast.
David Brooks (01:35):
Good to be here.
Marcus Goodyear (01:36):
Let's just jump right in. It feels like we are
living through some kind ofcrisis of meaning in our culture
right now, and that has peoplelooking to power rather than
purpose. What do you think makespower feel so seductive? Maybe
always, but especially rightnow.
David Brooks (01:52):
Well, in particular, you know, I trace
our political problems to whatyou described as a spiritual and
relational crisis. And it showsup in the mental health
statistics. It shows up inrising suicide rates. It shows
up in the fact that thirty fivepercent of Americans say they're
persistently lonely. Forty fivepercent of high school kids say
they're persistently hopelessand despondent.
The number of Americans who sayno close personal friends is up
(02:14):
by four times since February.And so that's a crisis in the
fabric of our society. And ifyou leave people alone, and
especially in a time ofpolarization when people feel
under siege, then they're gonnareach out to some sort of power.
Mhmm. And they wanna feel I needsomebody on my side when I feel
(02:34):
under siege, when I feeldistrustful.
The core social statistic to meis the loss of interpersonal
trust. A generation ago, if youasked people, do you trust your
neighbors? 60% of Americanssaid, yeah. I trust my
neighbors. That's down to30% and 19% of millennials.
And so if you ask millennial andGen Z, do you agree with the
(02:54):
following statements? Mostpeople are selfish and out to
get you. In one recent survey,72% of Gen Z said, yeah, agree
with that. And that's true of mystudents when I teach in
college. So imagine goingthrough life when you think most
people are selfish enough to getyou, everybody in the grocery
store, the gas station,whatever.
And so if that's your mentality,then of course you want power.
(03:15):
You want defense. And politicsis a surprisingly effective or
seductive form of social therapybecause politics seems to give
you a sense of belonging. I'm amember of team blue or team red.
But, of course, it's not reallybelonging.
You're just hating the sameside. Politics seems to give you
the illusion of righteousaction. You're doing something
(03:35):
moral, but you're not sittingwith a widow or serving the
poor. You're just tweeting atsomebody. And so it it gives you
the illusion you're gonna fillthe hole in your soul, but
really it just puts you in astate of perpetual war.
Marcus Goodyear (03:51):
Yeah.
David Brooks (03:51):
And so to me, when I look at the politicization of
society of, like, late nightcomedy, of sports, of churches,
that's that's people trying tofill a hole in their soul with
politics, and I'm asking more ofpolitics than it can deliver.
Marcus Goodyear (04:02):
I hear you talking about distrust in
society, and that makes me thinkof distrust in institutions. Do
you think we can believe ininstitutions again? What would
that even look like to to godown that route?
David Brooks (04:15):
Yeah. Well, there are two kinds of distrust that
social scientists measure. Theone is institutional distrust,
and for most of Americanhistory, the question they ask
is, do you trust institutions orgovernment or schools to do the
right thing most of the time?And up until about 1967, 75% of
Americans or so would say, yeah,I do. I trust my government to
do the right thing most of thetime.
(04:36):
That trust collapsed in the eraof Vietnam and Watergate. And
it's gone up a little sometimesduring the Reagan years, during
the Clinton years, during theObama years, but it's never
really recovered. So distrust ininstitutions is caused by a
sense that institutions areletting us down. I have a friend
who's an electrician in Ohio,and he heard me say somewhere
(04:57):
that I really trustinstitutions. I do.
I went to a great elementaryschool. I went to a great
college. I went to a greatsummer camp. And those were
glorious institutions. I nowwork at The New York Times.
It's an institution. It's beenaround for hundreds of years.
And it has its problems likeevery institution, but I'm proud
to be part of it. You can tellwhen an institution is being
(05:19):
successful, when it sets aseries of standards that you try
to live up to. For example, Iwork at a place called PBS on
the NewsHour and it was foundedby Jim Lehrer.
And when I first started, and Iwas a baby pundit, when I said
something he liked, I could seehis eyes crinkle with pleasure.
(05:39):
When I said something he didn'tlike, I could see his mouth
downturn with displeasure. Hethought it was crass or stupid.
So for ten years that I workedwith him, I just tried to chase
the eye crinkle and avoid themouth downturn. And without ever
saying anything to to me, he seta standard.
This is how we do things at theNews Hour. And he said that
standard not only to me,everybody on the team. And so
(06:00):
Jim has been dead for severalyears now. But that moral
ecology he created glass on. Andso I trust the News Hour as an
institution because it told me,here's how you should behave to
be excellent.
And a lot of people, and myfriend from Ohio heard me
talking about this and he said,I've never been part of an
institution that I reallytrusted. The institutions I've
(06:21):
been part of are just like aboot in my face. And that's a
school that didn't see him,other institutions that have let
him down, government that hefeels has let him down. And so
that's the voice of somebodywho's had a different experience
than I have, but his experienceis probably a little more common
than mine.
Camille Hall-Ortega (06:38):
Right. Well, now, and you're discussing
there, you're talking aboutlearning about standards via
implicit rules, right, implicitguidelines. And we have this
knowledge of implicit versusexplicit guidelines. And what a
lot of us see, perhaps, when weare sort of churning up this
(07:00):
mistrust, distrust, is thatsometimes the explicit standards
or what we say we expect or wantor want to live up to does not
match what we're seeing. So itseems to me like some of the
experiences of of institutionssort of saying the right things,
(07:20):
but that becoming lip service,where they're not walking the
walk, they're just talking thetalk, becomes sort of the root
of some of that distrust. Isthat what you've seen as well?
David Brooks (07:31):
Yeah. I mean, there's a sure way to lose trust
if somebody tells you they'regonna do one thing and they
don't do another. If I run foroffice and I say, I'm gonna take
care of you. And I'm really, I'mthere with the common person.
I'm not there for the elites.
And then they are there for theelites and not for the common
person, well that's a sense ofbetrayal. I grew up in New York
City so you wouldn't think thisof me, I love to ride horses.
Marcus Goodyear (07:53):
Nice.
David Brooks (07:54):
I was out in Montana and I was with a 21 year
old and she said, where do youlive? I said, Washington DC. And
she's like, that's a cesspool. Idespise that place. I was like,
woah.
Marcus Goodyear: Strong feelings. (08:07):
undefined
David Brooks (08:08):
From like a sweet little 21 year old young woman.
But I think that has built up.But now we've gotten to a point
where the distrust is soprofound that they don't even
believe you the first timeyou're gonna say it. I'm gonna
look after you. And then theydon't mind if you lie.
Because lying has become just soexpected. And that they take it
(08:29):
for granted if you're apolitician, of course you're
gonna lie. People aren'tbothered by it because of
course, they all lie. And soonce you get into a place where
they all lie, then you're in a aplace where people have morally
checked out. And you're sort ofin a place of nihilism.
Camille Hall-Ortega (08:43):
So we're we're pretty jaded at this
point. Right? And now I heardyou talk a bit about
millennials, and I'm amillennial. And when you were
talking about some of the rootsof or the history of these
issues, you mentioned Watergateand Vietnam. But, of course, my
generation, that's not salientfor us. Right? I wasn't alive
then. Are we seeing some of itcome from family? Are we seeing
(09:06):
some of that be rooted in howwe're raised, that that distrust
is is sort of trickling down tous, or are you seeing other
roots for for generations likemillennials and Gen Z?
David Brooks (09:16):
Well, I think some of it is national. And so if
you're a millennial and you'renot familiar with or personally
familiar with Vietnam,Watergate, but the financial
crisis may have affected you.The war in Iraq may have
affected you. That whole madnessof our politics over the last
few years is just going to seemlike normal. And so I think I do
think there's national.
The second thing, I teachcollege, I ask my students why
(09:39):
you guys so distrustful. And oneyoung woman said to me, have you
looked at our social life? Andshe said to me, I've had four
boyfriends and all of themghosted me at the end. And so I
expect the next guy's gonnaghost me. So of course, I'm
distrustful.
And then the final thing I'd sayis, and this is not a
millennial, this is true of GenX, Boomer, whatever. I think for
(10:00):
the last three or fourgenerations, we have not taught
succeeding generations how to beconsiderate toward each other in
the complex circumstances oflife. Like how do you sit with
someone who's grieving? How doyou sit with someone who's
depressed? How do you break upwith someone without crushing
their heart?
How do you ask for an offer offorgiveness? These are just
(10:20):
basic social skills. And I don'tthink anybody taught them to me.
Maybe in the old days people gotthem in church or somewhere, I
never got And so I've had tospend an adulthood trying to
learn basic social skills. Thewoman who had her boyfriend's
ghost her, partly it could bethe guys are jerks, but it could
be nobody ever taught them howto have that conversation.
(10:41):
Nobody even suggested to themthat they needed to have that
conversation. And so I thinkthere's just been a loss in how
we treat each other,consideration or not
consideration. And if peoplearen't being considerate toward
you, it doesn't matter whatnational politics are, you're
you're gonna be a littlesuspicious.
Camille Hall-Ortega (10:56):
Right.
Marcus Goodyear (10:57):
It almost sounds like what part of I feel
bad about what I'm about to say.Let me just preface it that way.
It almost feels like we'remissing etiquette. Like, we
don't know the rules of politeengagement anymore. I mean, used
to be all those those books ofetiquette. And and, I mean, I
get it. There were problems withthose books. There were all
kinds of expectations andstereotypes embedded in them.
(11:20):
But the rules of engagement,probably because of technology
and the many different ways inwhich we can communicate and
message each other, have justchanged. And we don't have clear
etiquette for how to behave.
Camille Hall-Ortega (11:33):
Oh, sure. It's a bit broader. Right? But
it goes outside of etiquette orpoliteness, but into the realm
of of really interpersonalcommunication and and how to
relate to others in healthyways. Right?
David Brooks (11:47):
Yeah. I mean, nobody ever taught me how to end
a conversation gracefully. Andso what I should say is,
Camille, I really enjoyedtalking with you. I really like
what you said about the implicitversus the explicit. That was
very interesting.
It's been a pleasure spendingtime with you. Like, that's a
nice way to end a conversation.
Camille Hall-Ortega (12:00):
Sure.
David Brooks (12:01):
But it took me till my forties or fifties to
know how to do that. And Iremember I went to my fifth high
school reunion, and my only movein a cocktail setting to get out
of conversation was to say, I'vegot to go to the bar. And so 20
since my high school reunion,I'm so drunk I had to leave
because I'd gone to the bar likesix times.
Marcus Goodyear (12:20):
But you could've gotten to water.
David Brooks (12:21):
I could've gotten to water.
News Clip (12:22):
Bartender's like, do wanna swap the water here?
David Brooks (12:27):
That that part is basic etiquette. Then some of it
is like being more considerate.Like, someone has lost a child
and you're in conversation withthem. Do you talk about it or
don't? And so I had a friend wholost a child and she said,
people are afraid to mention mydaughter Anna to me because they
don't raise a bad subject.
(12:48):
But they should know Anna isalways on my mind and if you
raise it then I can talk abouther if I want to if I don't feel
like I won't but you've given methe option. And so these are
just basic rules, social skills.We the way you teach tennis or
carpentry, we we could teachthese skills better, and I think
it would do a lot of good.
Camille Hall-Ortega (13:04):
It seems like we're out of practice. I
think so much of what our worldadvancement in the world today
has offered us has also sort ofcrippled us in this realm that
we are able to escape reallyeasily from having to practice
how to be in relation with oneanother. And that escape is
really welcome for a lot offolks, But then yet you get to
(13:26):
your high school reunion and yougo, when can I leave? Right?
David Brooks (13:29):
Yeah. Yeah. And as Marcus said, you know, we used
to have these rules ofetiquette. And to me, I was
raised in a generation. Theyseemed stuffy.
They seemed old fashioned. Theyseemed artificial and
pretentious. But it turns out ifyou don't have those rules, life
can get pretty ragged. And sofor example, I'm old enough to
have been at a time, I wasn'tthere like in the 1950's when
(13:51):
people were like, they would pina girl out of this was like if
you're in high school you wantto go out with somebody who put
a pin on her that was a thing. Iwasn't around for that but I was
around for you ask a girl outthen you're going steady and you
you have an officialrelationship, you know where you
stand and then you break up.
And when I talk to my students,those courtship rituals are gone
(14:13):
and they often don't know wherethey stand if it's a hookup is
it are we having a relationshipor we're not having a
relationship and so some ofthose artificial rules have been
taken away and in some ways it'sliberating but in some ways it's
anarchy.
Marcus Goodyear (14:27):
Wow. I feel like morality in general is kind
of on the edge of thisconversation too. And I'm
wondering like what morals do weneed to be teaching in our
society right now? How can wehow can we shift the morals that
we're teaching?
David Brooks (14:42):
Yeah. Well, it used to be that moral formation
was at the center of everyinstitution. And so there's a
school in England called theStowe School. And the headmaster
there said, our job as a schoolis to turn out young men and
women who will be acceptable ata dance, invaluable at a
shipwreck. The kind of peopleyou can turn to when people
(15:02):
chips are down.
And that was their job. That wasthe primary job. And that was
the primary job. If you look atthe National Education
Association in this country,they said character formation is
the primary job of schools aslate as the 1960s. But now, if
you look at how schools behave,some of them still talk a good
game, it's about characterformation, but really it's about
SAT scores, standardized tests,and been getting kids into the
(15:26):
college their parents can beproud of.
Marcus Goodyear (15:28):
And it has to be, right? Because we have a
kind of a stated meritocracy,and I know that it's
complicated. You've writtenabout in ways that are really
interesting to me. But if kidsdon't show their merit, they
will not get a good jobpotentially. The stakes are
really high.
Camille Hall-Ortega (15:45):
We've created this madness,
David Brooks (15:47):
Yeah, I mean your characters, your ability to
persevere, it's more importantthan how smart you are. How do
you how well you do onstandardized tests. And so my
definition of moral formationcomes from the gospel of Ted
Lasso.
Camille Hall-Ortega (16:02):
Perfect.
David Brooks (16:03):
The first season of that show, he was asked,
what's your goals for yourfootball team, FC Richmond? And
he said, my goal is not to win achampionship. It's to help these
fellows become better the bestversions of themselves on and
off the field.
And that's it. Becoming the bestversion of yourself on and off
the field. And what Jim Lehrerdid to me with those eye crinkle
and the mouth downturn, that'smoral formation. He was the
(16:26):
standard on how to what here'show we do things here, how to be
an excellent. And so it doesn'thave to be like Stern rules of
those sometimes help. I wrote acolumn years ago on how hard it
was to teach more formation in aclassroom. And I got an email
from a veterinarian in Oregonand he says, never forget what a
wise person says is the least ofthat which they give. What gets
(16:49):
communicated is the smallest oftheir gestures.
So if you're in a classroom, isthe teacher generous toward you?
Is the teacher really interestedin seeing you and understanding
you? And those kind of smallgestures get communicated. We're
all spreading moral ecologiesevery second of every day and
people are watching us moreclosely than we think. And
really that's how moralformation happens in everyday
(17:11):
life. I wanna know, are youconsiderate toward me? And if
you are, I'll become a littlemore considerate because I'll
what it looks like.
Camille Hall-Ortega (17:18):
That's really good. I would always say
I I taught at the college levelpreviously, and I would always
say the best reviews that Iwould get from students came
from the ones who would come tooffice hours because they got to
see more. You had a betteropportunity, more time to show
yourself as being consideratetoward them. Right? They see a
lecture, and they see the gradesthey get, and they go, this
(17:40):
class is too hard, or she's atough grader. The ones that
would come and spend time andreally desire to learn would see
how relational you are. Right?
David Brooks (17:50):
Yeah. I'll tell you one of my best moments as a
teacher. And so I I was teachingup at Yale and I would teach
Tuesday morning and Wednesday,Tuesday night, Tuesday afternoon
and Wednesday morning. That wasmy class schedule and then when
I was in New Haven. And so I hadoffice hours, what I called
office hours, at a restaurant ora bar on Tuesday nights. And
sometimes we'd go to like one inthe morning. It was just me and
(18:11):
like seven or eight students andit was totally fun. And I was
courting a woman who happened towork at the Howard Butt
Foundation and lived in Houston.
Camille Hall-Ortega (18:20):
Oh, wow.
David Brooks (18:21):
And she was gonna fly to New Haven and tell me
whether she was gonna marry me.And so I thought I didn't I
didn't tell my students that,but I told them that I was going
to cancel office hours and thatevening of the 24 students in
the seminar 18 of them sent mean email saying professor Brooks
(18:42):
I just want you know, I'mpraying for you and we're going
through but I'm thinking of you.And that changed the temperature
of that classroom the wholetime. Because suddenly I wasn't
Professor Brooks.
I was just another schmo goingthrough the normal stuff normal
people go through. And so it wasa revelation to me as a teacher
to be not super vulnerable, butslightly more human and
(19:04):
vulnerable than maybe I'mcomfortable with being. Then
it'll it'll really change thetemperature and get people
really relating to you in a way.
Camille Hall-Ortega (19:11):
Sure.
David Brooks (19:12):
And she told me she would never marry me. And
now we've been married for eightyears, so it all worked out at
the end.
Camille Hall-Ortega (19:17):
Oh, I love that story. That's beautiful.
That's beautiful. And I think ittouches on another point here,
right, that this sort of powerof vulnerability, that there's
this element that we want torelate to one another, and that
vulnerability humanizes in a waythat people can appreciate,
(19:39):
people can relate to. They seethemselves in you.
David Brooks (19:42):
Yeah. And you can feel how hard that vulnerability
is when you feel the world isdistrustful.
Camille Hall-Ortega (19:48):
Sure.
David Brooks (19:49):
And then you don't wanna do it. And one of the, I
had a moment. It was afterOctober 7, I was in a hotel bar
and I was you would have saiddrinking alone. But I would I
call it reporting. So I I was onmy phone at this bar late at
night and I'm scrolling throughall this these images from The
(20:11):
Middle East And you can imaginethey're brutal, brutal images.
Camille Hall-Ortega (20:15):
Yeah.
David Brooks (20:15):
But then I come across a little video, black and
white video, of the novelistJames Baldwin. And I I stop on
that video and I listen to whathe says, and it's just a few
seconds. And he says, there'snot as much humanity as one
would like in the world, butthere's enough. There's more
than you would think. And thenhe says, you have to remember,
when you walk down the street,every person you see, you could
(20:37):
be that person. That personcould be you. And you have to
decide who you wanna be.
And so James Baldwin had theright to be very distrustful of
American society because of theterrible way American society
treated him. But he still, evenin that harshness, made the
ultimate humanistic comment. Youcould be that person.
(20:58):
That person could be you. Andwhen I was watching the video,
the phrase that left my mind wasdefiant humanism. That even in
harsh and brutal times, evenwhen the world is really being
unfair to you, that he still wasgonna insist on being a human
and treating other people ashumans. And it seems to me it's
scary, but in harsh and brutaland polarizing times, that kind
(21:19):
of defiant humanism is whatwe're called to do, even while
we understand how vulnerability,it will lead people to betray
you. But I found in life, if youlead with trust, then most of
the times people will show upfor you and respond with trust
in trustworthy ways.
News Clip (21:34):
So good.
That makes me think of AI.You're talking about humanism
and being human I'm very awareright now that we have this
technology that is pretending tobe human. For the first time in
human history do we have atechnology like this. And I'm
curious what do you think thatdoes to our moral intuition when
(21:59):
we're surrounded by technologiesthat are acting like they care?
David Brooks (22:03):
Yeah. Well, it's, AI simulates humanity, but it's
not.
Marcus Goodyear (22:08):
Right.
David Brooks (22:08):
It has no emotion. It has no agency. It has no
sense of self. And so I'll giveyou my upbeat version. I can
give you my downbeat version ofthe AI future. But my upbeat
version is that it's gonnaremind us who we are by
revealing what it can't do.
Marcus Goodyear (22:21):
Yes.
David Brooks (22:22):
And so there's certain things that it can't
that it it's really good at.It's really good at taking
batches of information andsynthesizing it into a
paragraph. It's really bad atdesiring things. It doesn't have
desire. It's really bad athaving a distinct voice. It's
really bad at coming up withunusual opinions. So, and it's
(22:43):
really bad at actual empathy.And so, I do think it's going to
help us see what is at the coreof ourselves and maybe disabuse
of a notion that has been toopowerful for a hundred years,
which is that the core humantrait is intelligence. I don't
think that's the core humantrait. And so if AI takes on
some of that certain kinds ofintelligence, it doesn't bother
(23:05):
me.
As long as we have our emotions,our will, our passions, our
character, our soul, ourspiritual yearnings, that
strikes me as more at the coreof being human than your SAT
score.
Camille Hall-Ortega (23:16):
Right.
Marcus Goodyear (23:16):
That's a good answer. I like it. If you were
to flip it, you said you couldhave flipped it.
David Brooks (23:22):
How do you do the negative? Well, you know, I'm I
just look at my students andsome of them are using AI to
write their papers. And at thecurrent technology, I can always
tell that voice is abstract, andit's like they the structure is
all too formulaic. And if you'redoing that, all you're doing is
robbing yourself of aneducation. If you're using AI to
(23:42):
write your papers, like and evenif you think, oh, I'll only help
do the help it do my firstdraft.
Well, your first draft is howyou think. And and writing badly
is part of the process ofactually learning something. And
if we use AI as a crutch, thenwe will simply not develop as as
full human beings. And that'snot even to talk about the, you
know, the job displacement andall the rest.
Camille Hall-Ortega (24:04):
Really good. We were talking a bit
about morals and and how itseems like in some ways we've
lost our way. How do we find ourway? Where where are we supposed
to sort of begin to get betterat all of that, really?
David Brooks (24:21):
Yeah. Well, I think the first step is just
seeing each other better. And soI do think the, you know, the
the primary source of a goodsociety is people feel seen,
heard, respected, understood.And so that's a set of skills,
like I said, but it's also aposture.
(24:41):
It's a posture that says we'reall made in the image of God and
each person is deserving ofrespect reverence and respect.
And if you start with thatposture, then you're probably
gonna do okay. But then thesecond thing is just become
really good at asking each otherquestions. And you know, my job
as a journalist and your job aspodcast host is to ask people
(25:04):
questions. And in my lifetime,how many times has somebody said
to me, none of your damnbusiness? And the answer is
zero.
Camille Hall-Ortega (25:13):
Yeah.
David Brooks (25:13):
Because if you ask people to tell you their life
story in a respectful way, noone has ever asked them that.
And they are delighted to do it.And so to me, that's the core
thing.
Simone Weil, this mystic, Frenchmystic in World War II, she said
attention is the ultimate formof generosity. And one of her
(25:33):
disciples said that most of thetime we see each other with self
centered eyes. And our real jobis to cast a just and loving
attention on each other. And sothat's the right kind of
attention. The novelist I wasthinking of is Iris Murdoch.
And so it's the act of castingattention is the prime the first
(25:54):
moral act. I'm reminded, don'tknow if this is apropos, but I
once heard about an interviewthat Dan Rather, the CBS
newsman, did with Mother Teresa.And he asked her when you pray
to God, what do you say to himand she says I don't say
anything I just listen. And heasked her what is your what is
(26:14):
God saying to you and she saysoh he's not saying anything he's
just listening. And she says, ifyou can't understand what I'm
talking about, I can't explainit to you.
Camille Hall-Ortega (26:23):
I love this idea of asking each other
questions. We used to say and itdoesn't seem true for everyone,
but we used to say, if you'relooking for something to talk
about with someone, theirfavorite subject is themself.
People love to and so we wouldencourage our students, you
know, if you're if you aretrying to get to know someone or
impress someone, make sure touse their name a few times in
(26:45):
the conversation and ask themquestions about themselves. You
know, even if you don't careabout these people's kids, ask
about their kids. People willnever tire of talking about
their kids.
Right? Some of that can seemsort of superficial or script
script like. But in the end, itoftentimes helps us get where we
(27:07):
need to be, which is justlearning more about one another.
David Brooks (27:10):
Yeah. I'm a friend with a guy, a social
psychologist named Nick Epley atthe University of Chicago. And
we were on a stage in front of,I don't know, an audience. And
we were talking on one of theseconversations. And then he
interrupted our conversation.
And he said to the audience,Okay, we're going to, David and
I are going to stop talking now.But I want you, every one of
you, to find somebody in theroom you don't know and spend
(27:32):
the next ten minutes tellingthem about the high point of
your life, the low point of yourlife, and the turning point of
your life. And this big groanwent up from the audience, and
he said, how many of you don'twant to do this? And 80% of the
hands went up. And he said goand so they all found somebody.
They all found somebody theystarted doing this exercise and
(27:54):
ten minutes later we couldn'tget them to shut up. We're
having such a good time Andfinally, twenty minutes later,
we got them to quiet down andpay back attention to us. And
Nick said, how many of youenjoyed that? And 80% of the
hands went up again. And so thelesson, and this is comes from
his research, that weunderestimate how much we'll
enjoy talking to strangers.
(28:14):
We underestimate how deep peoplewant to go. And so we
underestimate what pleasure itis to talk to another human
being. And so now when I'm on aplane, not all the time, but
sometimes when I've got an hourleft in the flight, I won't do
the whole flight, but maybe whenthere's an hour left, I'll take
off my headphones and see if wecan have a conversation. And
that is a surefire way toimprove your life, by the way,
(28:37):
because the people you talk to,they're always more interesting
than whatever it is you happento be reading.
Marcus Goodyear (28:42):
I'm imagining when you do that on an airplane,
do people know who you are? Doesthat help introduce the
conversation or is that abarrier to conversation?
David Brooks (28:52):
It's a barrier. I when they know who I am, I don't
do it because I don't need toplay that rep, that game. If
they don't know who I am, we canjust have a normal conversation,
then it's a natural conversationand it's more fun.
Marcus Goodyear (29:07):
And forgive me if this is silly, but we were
talking about, you know, thingsthat people, you wish people had
taught you that you didn't know.How do you initiate the
conversation in the planewithout seeming weird?
David Brooks (29:21):
Well, it's like it's like what Camille said. You
find something they're proud of.And if they're wearing a New
York Mets jersey, then I'll askthem about the New York Mets or
their kids soccer team oranything. And then before long,
I can get to the spot where it'sjust my next go to, which is
asking, Where'd you grow up? AndI travel a lot and there's a
(29:43):
good chance I've been there.
But then if I even haven't,people love to talk about their
childhood. And then as theconversation develops, you can
push it pretty fast. People loveto talk to strangers and
sometimes they're moreuninhibited with strangers than
with adults. And so some of thegood questions are the good
questions I like are they liftyou out of your normal view of
(30:03):
yourself and they allow you tosee your life from a higher
vantage point. So like, if thisfive years is a chapter in your
life, what's the chapter about?
And then people get tostep back, and then, you know,
what crossroads are you at? Areyou in the middle of some sort
of transition? This, this, yougotta know people. But I had a
(30:24):
friend who was in a jobinterview and he turned to the
interviewer. He was beinginterviewed.
And he said, what would you doif you weren't afraid? And she
started crying because shewouldn't be doing HR at that
company if she wasn't afraid.She's too afraid to leave. And
so fear plays a role in ourlives. And so you have to build
some trust before you ask thatquestion, believe me.
(30:46):
But you can get there with somespeed. And people just love
telling the stories of theirlives. And the one thing I've
learned is always get them tostorytelling mode. So I never
asked people what do you believeI said how did you come to
believe that and then suddenlythey're telling me about some
mentor or some experience theyhad and when they're in
(31:06):
narrative mode then they'rereally talking in a more natural
way. We were born to talk instories.
Marcus Goodyear (31:12):
Yeah. They're being relational, right? They're
talking about the relationshipthat brought them to a certain
understanding rather than namingthe truth.
David Brooks (31:21):
And I found it it doesn't take long before they're
pulling out their phone andshowing you pictures.
Camille Hall-Ortega (31:26):
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.
David Brooks (31:29):
Yeah.
Camille Hall-Ortega (31:29):
I wonder maybe then if if we can get a
story out of you. We we talkedagain yeah. We talked about
morals as sort of a through athrough line of our conversation
here. And I wonder who shapedyour morals in your life?
David Brooks (31:43):
Yeah. I would say a bit it's my family. My
grandfather was a he wasactually born here, but his
grandfather was an immigrant.And so he had the immigrant
mentality that we're sort ofmarginal to this society but
we're gonna make it here nomatter what. We're gonna work
our rears off and we're gonnamake it here. And that really
was pretty formative. I'm not animmigrant but I still think I
(32:03):
have that immigrant mentality.
Camille Hall-Ortega (32:05):
Yeah.
David Brooks (32:05):
And my, I grew up in Lower Manhattan, on the Lower
East Side Of Manhattan. And mywife used to be a trustee at a
university called Nyack College,which was a Christian college in
New York City. And I would govisit the students there and
they were really immigrants fromall over the country, all over
the world. And some of themdidn't look like me, but that
hustle, that immigrant hustle, Irecognized it. Was just like my
(32:26):
grandfather.
So that was very formative. Andthen frankly, went to the
University of Chicago where ourprofessors, they did a lousy job
of preparing us for theworkforce, believe me. But they
did a great job of trying toconvey what matters in life. My
professors said, if you readthese books, these great books,
(32:47):
whether it's Aristotle orSocrates or Rousseau or whoever,
and you think about themcarefully, you will have the
keys to the magic kingdom of howto live. And once you've tasted
the fine wine, the grape juiceis not satisfying. And so they
instilled in me a love of greatdeep reading. And I think that's
that's been a great gift to mylife that they they gave me.
Camille Hall-Ortega (33:10):
Really good. Thank you for sharing
that.
Marcus Goodyear (33:12):
Speaking of deep reading, that makes me
think of just engaging with artof all kinds. Recently we
discovered that there is in ouraudio archives some clips from
Ronald Reagan who spoke at afoundation event back when he
was governor. So this is hewasn't actually at Laity Lodge,
is our adult retreat center, buthe was at an event that
(33:35):
essentially the staff of LaityLodge was putting on. I believe
it was in California. And hetalks, in this clip about the
importance of art and deepattention to art in shaping I
would love to just get your takeon this.
Here's Ronald Reagan.
Ronald Reagan (33:56):
One of our truly great playwrights, Maxwell
Anderson, evidently believedthat each of us can practice
faith in his daily work. He saidthe purpose of the theater is to
find and hold up to our regardwhat is admirable in the human
race. The theater is a religiousinstitution devoted to the
exaltation of the spirit of man.It is an attempt to prove that
(34:19):
man has a dignity and a destiny,that life is worth living, and
that he is not purely animalwithout purpose. He went on to
say, Analyze any play which hassurvived the test of continued
favor, and you will find a moralor a rule of social conduct
which is considered valuableenough to learn and pass along.
(34:41):
The theater is the centralartistic symbol of the struggle
of good and evil within man. Itsteaching is that the struggle is
eternal and unremitting, thatthe forces which would drag men
down are always present, alwaysready to attack, that the forces
which make for good cannot sleepthrough the night without
(35:02):
danger.
David Brooks (35:04):
I I have a couple reactions. First of all, it
makes sense that he he was anactor, the theater would be
important. Second, I can't helpbut reminding myself that one of
his big hit movies was calledBedtime for Bonzo, about him and
his relationship with a monkey,which I'm not sure really lived
up to the high calling that hejust described in that that
quotation.
Marcus Goodyear (35:23):
We all take ourselves very seriously.
David Brooks (35:24):
It's entertaining. And I guess the final
distinction I've made is I don'tthink play is like a sermon. I
don't think it's there to likehammer a moral message over us.
Yeah. But I do think what a playor any artwork is there is to
help us understand humanity andto understand the essential
(35:46):
dignity of humanity.
And in that is its morals, asyou see people struggling with
right and wrong. As I waslistening to that, I was
reminded that I'm not gonna getthe quote right, but the great
novelist John Steinbeck in hisbook East of Eden says, he says
there's only one struggle and atthe end of life, the only
essential question of did I dowell or did I do ill? And he
(36:07):
said this struggle between goodand evil is operating on all
levels of our consciousness. AndI think the job of theater,
literature, or art is to show usin that struggle, not
necessarily to sermonize us intohow to do it. And when you do
that, a, you're spreadingempathy.
If you want to have your kidslearn empathy, literally, this
(36:29):
is research, the number onething you should have them do is
get involved in their school'sdrama department.
Marcus Goodyear (36:34):
Yes. Preach it.
David Brooks (36:36):
The act of inhabiting another role is
that's empathy. And I wrote abook on how to know people, and
my best interviews were oftenwith actors.
Like I got to interview MatthewMcConaughey and he said, of the
things I do when I'm trying toget into a role is I look at the
one gesture that guy does thatreveals his character. And he
said, some people are front inthe hands pocket. They're hands
(36:58):
in the front pocket kind ofpeople. They put their hands in
their front pockets. They'rekinda curled in on themselves.
And I know if that guy's curledin on himself, if he's gonna try
to be assertive and big, he'sgonna be a little fake. He's
gonna overdo it.
Camille Hall-Ortega (37:11):
Mhmm.
David Brooks (37:11):
And so those one little gestures from McConaughey
were a way for him to understandsort of at the core of that
being. And there's a quote fromViola Davis I saw where she
says, we're thieves. We'relooking to gesture, and we're
trying to see why did thisperson nod their head that way?
Why do they swallow this way?Like, we I'm just looking around
observing people. And so I dothink the theater plays a great
(37:32):
role in humanizing societybecause it shows us what's going
on in another person's mind andheart. And every bit of time you
can do that is, to me, the mostpractical thing you can do.
If you don't understand otherpeople, you're gonna be
miserable and make other peoplemiserable. And so all the things
that we think are soft andsquishy, like theater, art,
(37:53):
music, those are hard andpractical in my book. And as we
eliminate them from school, thatfeeds into a lot of the
dehumanization we've beentalking about.
Camille Hall-Ortega (38:01):
Sure. I love that, this idea, because I
think some of what Ronald Reaganwas discussing there really is
what you were hitting on aboutyour professors from University
of Chicago, which is that theywere conveying what matters in
life. And so perhaps these playsor these works of art aren't
(38:22):
showing in this very explicitway, we should behave like this,
this is what morals look like.But get to know people because
that's that's what matters inlife.
David Brooks (38:32):
Yeah. Like like, take Hamlet. Like, somebody
kills his father, and one valuesystem that he's inherited from
the classical world saysrevenge. Kill the guy who killed
your father. That's your job.
Camille Hall-Ortega (38:46):
Yeah.
David Brooks (38:47):
But then another moral tradition he's inherited
from Christianity says love yourenemy. Revenge is not what
you're supposed to do. And so wesee a guy, Hamlet, who's caught
between these two value systems.And Shakespeare isn't saying he
should have chose column Arather than column B. He's just
showing a guy caught betweenthese two value systems.
Camille Hall-Ortega (39:04):
Right. The tension is the story.
David Brooks (39:07):
Right. Exactly.
Marcus Goodyear (39:08):
How do we learn to trust each other when we feel
that divide within us? You knowwe feel the conflict in our own
value systems so when we alreadyexperience our own conflict how
are we learning to trust otherswho we know implicitly are also
in conflict?
David Brooks (39:25):
Yeah. It's hard to trust people who don't share
your value system. And becausebecause trust is faith that
you'll do what you ought to do.And your trust in me is faith
that I will do what I ought todo. But for that to happen, we
both have to have the sameunderstanding of what we ought
to do.
Camille Hall-Ortega (39:43):
Yeah.
David Brooks (39:44):
And so that requires shared values. And then
beyond shared values, we have tohave faith that we each
understand the norms that guideus in these circumstances. So if
I'm on the highway and two lanesare merging into one, I know the
left lane goes and then theright lane goes. The left lane
goes and the right lane goes.
And if somebody butts in line,I'm gonna honk at them because I
(40:05):
wanna enforce the norms. No,this is how we do things. And
that's how trust is built. And Ithink one of the things that I
think is at the core of a lot ofour problems is that we've
privatized morality. Instead ofbelieving that morality is a
shared thing that that is anorder in which we all live, that
betrayal is always wrong,adultery is always wrong,
(40:26):
segregation is always wrong,whatever, it's always wrong.
And it's not just a matter ofcircumstances. Betrayal is
always wrong. There's never beena society on Earth where people
were praised for running away inbattle. I think CS Lewis wrote
that. So there are I think thereare some universal moral truths.
(40:46):
If we tell people, you come upwith your own morality, then
we're privatizing morality. It'snot gonna be a shared possession
anymore. And there was a greatbook by a guy named Walter
Lippmann in 1955. He was anewspaper columnist. And he
wrote, if what is good and badis a matter of personal opinion
based on our own individualfeelings, then we are outside
(41:09):
the realm of civilization.
And I think the value, hyperindividualist values we've sent
over the last fifty years, comeup with your own morality, come
up with your own truth.
Camille Hall-Ortega (41:19):
Your truth and my truth.
David Brooks (41:21):
Yeah. Yeah. It's had the effect of making it
harder for each to connect witheach other.
Camille Hall-Ortega (41:24):
But people having different value systems
is a reality. Right? We can workon that perhaps, but the reality
is that people have differingvalue systems. How do we trust
them? How do we live life? Andin society with folks that we
know differ from us, perhaps invery deep and real ways. What
(41:46):
what do we do?
David Brooks (41:47):
Yeah. Well, first, I think there are some human
universals. So you may be stoic.You might think that I I'm I
shouldn't show emotion, I mightbe an anti stoic. I like showing
vulnerability.
And so we're going to bedifferent. But we probably have
some same beliefs that lying toeach other is wrong. That being
(42:08):
callous and cruel to each other.And as pluralists, and we live
in a pluralistic diversesociety, so we understand that
some values are universal andpretty rock solid. But, know,
whether I drive on the rightside of the wrong road or the
left side of the road, that'smore about custom.
And even how I regard dating.We're gonna have different
(42:31):
people have different values.Yeah. Negotiating those values
is hard, those differences, butit's also fun because it's
interesting to be aroundsomebody who's a very different
value system than you. I Iremember I had a friend who was
a foreign correspondent, and hewas in Korea and the young
people were protesting. And oneof the kids bit off his
(42:53):
fingertip and wrote a slogan inblood on the wall. And he said,
well, I understand why they callthis foreign correspondents
because that's very foreign tome. You know, you you see you
know, I've been a foreigncorrespondent myself, and you
you go to Russia and peoplethere have you know, they
they're from a differentculture. They've got different
values.
(43:13):
And I found some of the bestpeople on earth are Russian.
Some of the worst people onearth are Russian.
Camille Hall-Ortega (43:19):
Right.
David Brooks (43:19):
And so you you deal with that that pluralism
that that's just part of beingmodern.
Camille Hall-Ortega (43:25):
But sounds like what you're saying is find
the commonalities and lean in.Right? Because they're there. We
we have places where we canagree. But then there's also
this notion of in in faith,sometimes we call it open handed
and closed handed issues.
If you believe that it's rightto harm children, we're never
(43:46):
going to be on the same page.That's not that's not an open
handed issue.
David Brooks (43:50):
Yeah. I I would just say that and nobody has a
monopoly on being right. So itit could be that my moral value
system has some blind spots, italmost certainly does.
Marcus Goodyear (44:00):
David, if somebody is young and listening
to this, we've been talkingabout morality, we've been
talking about the lack of trust,we've been talking about some
pretty dark statistics, whatwhat encouragement do you have
for Gen Z, for Gen Alpha?
David Brooks (44:18):
One of the hard parts about being in Gen Z is
how often rejection comes.Because it's important to apply.
It's so easy online to apply fora job, or to apply for an
internship, or to apply for acollege, or to apply to be
somebody's boyfriend andgirlfriend, that there's just a
(44:38):
lot of applications than thereare spaces. And so people who
apply to college get rejected bymost as people try to get a
summer internship, I talked tokids who have to apply to a 150
to get one.
Camille Hall-Ortega (44:50):
Woah.
David Brooks (44:51):
And then they they swipe right on 900 people and
nobody responds. And so I havetremendous sympathy. So I was
talking to a young woman who'sin Gen Z, and she said, I wish
I'd been young in the 90's. Itseemed so much easier. And I
told her, I was real young inthe 90's, and it was.
I guarantee you, it was a loteasier. And so I just would say
(45:14):
to Gen Z, A, be not afraid. Thatyou will be betrayed. But if you
lean in onto that. The secondthing I'd say is over invest in
your friendships.
I have a friend who, when he wasin college, he got together with
10 of his closest collegefriends and they formed a giving
(45:35):
circle. And they said, we'regonna put some money in a pot
depending on what we can afford.Every year we're gonna get
together we're going to have himget together for three days and
decide where to give the money.And the purpose of this exercise
is not to give away money,though that's a nice side
effect. The purpose of this isto keep his college friendships
(45:56):
through the rest of your life.
And those friendships, thefriendships you make when you're
young are just so powerful. Andso over investing in friendships
is a good way to give yourself asecure base so when the
challenges of life come, you'vegot a secure base, and you can
handle them.
Camille Hall-Ortega (46:13):
So good. David, I feel like that's a
great place to end on a note ofhope. We're so grateful for your
help.
Marcus Goodyear: Hope in humanity. (46:21):
undefined
News Clip (46:23):
Thank you, David.
David Brooks (46:24):
It's been great to be with you guys. Thank you.
Marcus Goodyear (46:28):
The Echoes Podcast is written and produced
by Camille Hall-Ortega, RobStennett, and me, Marcus
Goodyear. It's edited by RobStennett and Kim Stone. Our
executive producers are PattonDodd and David Rogers. Special
thanks to our guest today, DavidBrooks. In addition to The
Echoes Podcast, we welcome youto subscribe to Echoes Magazine.
You'll receive a beautiful printmagazine each quarter. You can
find a link in our show notes.The Echoes Podcast and Echoes
(46:50):
Magazine are both productionsbrought to you by the H.E.Butt
Foundation. You can learn moreabout our vision and mission at
hebfdn.org.
It is a strange time to read the news in our
country. Everything feels like acrisis, as if the world is
crashing down around us.
News Clip (00:08):
Key political partnership is imploding in
spectacular fashion tonight...
Racing tonight after sweepingimmigration raids sparked
protests and plagues...
...after Israel warned it isconsidering a strike on Iran.
Marcus Goodyear (00:19):
And in moments like that, it's tempting to look
to politics for answers. Left,right, center, whatever. But
what if we've been askingpolitics to do something it was
never meant to do? New YorkTimes bestselling author David
Brooks, our guest today, says itlike this.
David Brooks (00:33):
What people are doing is they feel a pain and
they should be coming to faith,but they're not, by and large.
They're going to politics.
Marcus Goodyear (00:42):
Maybe you felt let down by leaders from both
sides. Maybe you've been waitingfor the next person in power to
fix what feels broken, but deepdown, we know this repair work
isn't really political. It'sspiritual. It's relational. We
are in the middle of a moral andsocial crisis, and it's one that
runs deeper than any campaign orpolicy.
I'm Marcus Goodyear from theH.E.Butt Foundation, and this is
(01:04):
The Echoes Podcast. On today'sepisode, we welcome our guest
David Brooks. He is the authorof six books, including The Road
to Character. He's a columnistat The New York Times and The
Atlantic, and he's a regularcontributor to NPR, PBS, and The
Wall Street Journal. His TEDTalk has been viewed more than
5,000,000 times.
This week, David Brooks joins usto discuss not parties or
(01:24):
platforms, but the courage tolead a life of meaning. I'm here
with my co-host, Camille HallOrtega.
Camille Hall-Ortega (01:30):
Hey, Marcus. How are you?
Marcus Goodyear (01:32):
Great. David, welcome to the Echoes Podcast.
David Brooks (01:35):
Good to be here.
Marcus Goodyear (01:36):
Let's just jump right in. It feels like we are
living through some kind ofcrisis of meaning in our culture
right now, and that has peoplelooking to power rather than
purpose. What do you think makespower feel so seductive? Maybe
always, but especially rightnow.
David Brooks (01:52):
Well, in particular, you know, I trace
our political problems to whatyou described as a spiritual and
relational crisis. And it showsup in the mental health
statistics. It shows up inrising suicide rates. It shows
up in the fact that thirty fivepercent of Americans say they're
persistently lonely. Forty fivepercent of high school kids say
they're persistently hopelessand despondent.
The number of Americans who sayno close personal friends is up
(02:14):
by four times since February.And so that's a crisis in the
fabric of our society. And ifyou leave people alone, and
especially in a time ofpolarization when people feel
under siege, then they're gonnareach out to some sort of power.
Mhmm. And they wanna feel I needsomebody on my side when I feel
(02:34):
under siege, when I feeldistrustful.
The core social statistic to meis the loss of interpersonal
trust. A generation ago, if youasked people, do you trust your
neighbors? 60% of Americanssaid, yeah. I trust my
neighbors. That's down to30% and 19% of millennials.
And so if you ask millennial andGen Z, do you agree with the
(02:54):
following statements? Mostpeople are selfish and out to
get you. In one recent survey,72% of Gen Z said, yeah, agree
with that. And that's true of mystudents when I teach in
college. So imagine goingthrough life when you think most
people are selfish enough to getyou, everybody in the grocery
store, the gas station,whatever.
And so if that's your mentality,then of course you want power.
(03:15):
You want defense. And politicsis a surprisingly effective or
seductive form of social therapybecause politics seems to give
you a sense of belonging. I'm amember of team blue or team red.
But, of course, it's not reallybelonging.
You're just hating the sameside. Politics seems to give you
the illusion of righteousaction. You're doing something
(03:35):
moral, but you're not sittingwith a widow or serving the
poor. You're just tweeting atsomebody. And so it it gives you
the illusion you're gonna fillthe hole in your soul, but
really it just puts you in astate of perpetual war.
Marcus Goodyear (03:51):
Yeah.
David Brooks (03:51):
And so to me, when I look at the politicization of
society of, like, late nightcomedy, of sports, of churches,
that's that's people trying tofill a hole in their soul with
politics, and I'm asking more ofpolitics than it can deliver.
Marcus Goodyear (04:02):
I hear you talking about distrust in
society, and that makes me thinkof distrust in institutions. Do
you think we can believe ininstitutions again? What would
that even look like to to godown that route?
David Brooks (04:15):
Yeah. Well, there are two kinds of distrust that
social scientists measure. Theone is institutional distrust,
and for most of Americanhistory, the question they ask
is, do you trust institutions orgovernment or schools to do the
right thing most of the time?And up until about 1967, 75% of
Americans or so would say, yeah,I do. I trust my government to
do the right thing most of thetime.
(04:36):
That trust collapsed in the eraof Vietnam and Watergate. And
it's gone up a little sometimesduring the Reagan years, during
the Clinton years, during theObama years, but it's never
really recovered. So distrust ininstitutions is caused by a
sense that institutions areletting us down. I have a friend
who's an electrician in Ohio,and he heard me say somewhere
(04:57):
that I really trustinstitutions. I do.
I went to a great elementaryschool. I went to a great
college. I went to a greatsummer camp. And those were
glorious institutions. I nowwork at The New York Times.
It's an institution. It's beenaround for hundreds of years.
And it has its problems likeevery institution, but I'm proud
to be part of it. You can tellwhen an institution is being
(05:19):
successful, when it sets aseries of standards that you try
to live up to. For example, Iwork at a place called PBS on
the NewsHour and it was foundedby Jim Lehrer.
And when I first started, and Iwas a baby pundit, when I said
something he liked, I could seehis eyes crinkle with pleasure.
(05:39):
When I said something he didn'tlike, I could see his mouth
downturn with displeasure. Hethought it was crass or stupid.
So for ten years that I workedwith him, I just tried to chase
the eye crinkle and avoid themouth downturn. And without ever
saying anything to to me, he seta standard.
This is how we do things at theNews Hour. And he said that
standard not only to me,everybody on the team. And so
(06:00):
Jim has been dead for severalyears now. But that moral
ecology he created glass on. Andso I trust the News Hour as an
institution because it told me,here's how you should behave to
be excellent.
And a lot of people, and myfriend from Ohio heard me
talking about this and he said,I've never been part of an
institution that I reallytrusted. The institutions I've
(06:21):
been part of are just like aboot in my face. And that's a
school that didn't see him,other institutions that have let
him down, government that hefeels has let him down. And so
that's the voice of somebodywho's had a different experience
than I have, but his experienceis probably a little more common
than mine.
Camille Hall-Ortega (06:38):
Right. Well, now, and you're discussing
there, you're talking aboutlearning about standards via
implicit rules, right, implicitguidelines. And we have this
knowledge of implicit versusexplicit guidelines. And what a
lot of us see, perhaps, when weare sort of churning up this
(07:00):
mistrust, distrust, is thatsometimes the explicit standards
or what we say we expect or wantor want to live up to does not
match what we're seeing. So itseems to me like some of the
experiences of of institutionssort of saying the right things,
(07:20):
but that becoming lip service,where they're not walking the
walk, they're just talking thetalk, becomes sort of the root
of some of that distrust. Isthat what you've seen as well?
David Brooks (07:31):
Yeah. I mean, there's a sure way to lose trust
if somebody tells you they'regonna do one thing and they
don't do another. If I run foroffice and I say, I'm gonna take
care of you. And I'm really, I'mthere with the common person.
I'm not there for the elites.
And then they are there for theelites and not for the common
person, well that's a sense ofbetrayal. I grew up in New York
City so you wouldn't think thisof me, I love to ride horses.
Marcus Goodyear (07:53):
Nice.
David Brooks (07:54):
I was out in Montana and I was with a 21 year
old and she said, where do youlive? I said, Washington DC. And
she's like, that's a cesspool. Idespise that place. I was like,
woah.
Marcus Goodyear: Strong feelings. (08:07):
undefined
David Brooks (08:08):
From like a sweet little 21 year old young woman.
But I think that has built up.But now we've gotten to a point
where the distrust is soprofound that they don't even
believe you the first timeyou're gonna say it. I'm gonna
look after you. And then theydon't mind if you lie.
Because lying has become just soexpected. And that they take it
(08:29):
for granted if you're apolitician, of course you're
gonna lie. People aren'tbothered by it because of
course, they all lie. And soonce you get into a place where
they all lie, then you're in a aplace where people have morally
checked out. And you're sort ofin a place of nihilism.
Camille Hall-Ortega (08:43):
So we're we're pretty jaded at this
point. Right? And now I heardyou talk a bit about
millennials, and I'm amillennial. And when you were
talking about some of the rootsof or the history of these
issues, you mentioned Watergateand Vietnam. But, of course, my
generation, that's not salientfor us. Right? I wasn't alive
then. Are we seeing some of itcome from family? Are we seeing
(09:06):
some of that be rooted in howwe're raised, that that distrust
is is sort of trickling down tous, or are you seeing other
roots for for generations likemillennials and Gen Z?
David Brooks (09:16):
Well, I think some of it is national. And so if
you're a millennial and you'renot familiar with or personally
familiar with Vietnam,Watergate, but the financial
crisis may have affected you.The war in Iraq may have
affected you. That whole madnessof our politics over the last
few years is just going to seemlike normal. And so I think I do
think there's national.
The second thing, I teachcollege, I ask my students why
(09:39):
you guys so distrustful. And oneyoung woman said to me, have you
looked at our social life? Andshe said to me, I've had four
boyfriends and all of themghosted me at the end. And so I
expect the next guy's gonnaghost me. So of course, I'm
distrustful.
And then the final thing I'd sayis, and this is not a
millennial, this is true of GenX, Boomer, whatever. I think for
(10:00):
the last three or fourgenerations, we have not taught
succeeding generations how to beconsiderate toward each other in
the complex circumstances oflife. Like how do you sit with
someone who's grieving? How doyou sit with someone who's
depressed? How do you break upwith someone without crushing
their heart?
How do you ask for an offer offorgiveness? These are just
(10:20):
basic social skills. And I don'tthink anybody taught them to me.
Maybe in the old days people gotthem in church or somewhere, I
never got And so I've had tospend an adulthood trying to
learn basic social skills. Thewoman who had her boyfriend's
ghost her, partly it could bethe guys are jerks, but it could
be nobody ever taught them howto have that conversation.
(10:41):
Nobody even suggested to themthat they needed to have that
conversation. And so I thinkthere's just been a loss in how
we treat each other,consideration or not
consideration. And if peoplearen't being considerate toward
you, it doesn't matter whatnational politics are, you're
you're gonna be a littlesuspicious.
Camille Hall-Ortega (10:56):
Right.
Marcus Goodyear (10:57):
It almost sounds like what part of I feel
bad about what I'm about to say.Let me just preface it that way.
It almost feels like we'remissing etiquette. Like, we
don't know the rules of politeengagement anymore. I mean, used
to be all those those books ofetiquette. And and, I mean, I
get it. There were problems withthose books. There were all
kinds of expectations andstereotypes embedded in them.
(11:20):
But the rules of engagement,probably because of technology
and the many different ways inwhich we can communicate and
message each other, have justchanged. And we don't have clear
etiquette for how to behave.
Camille Hall-Ortega (11:33):
Oh, sure. It's a bit broader. Right? But
it goes outside of etiquette orpoliteness, but into the realm
of of really interpersonalcommunication and and how to
relate to others in healthyways. Right?
David Brooks (11:47):
Yeah. I mean, nobody ever taught me how to end
a conversation gracefully. Andso what I should say is,
Camille, I really enjoyedtalking with you. I really like
what you said about the implicitversus the explicit. That was
very interesting.
It's been a pleasure spendingtime with you. Like, that's a
nice way to end a conversation.
Camille Hall-Ortega (12:00):
Sure.
David Brooks (12:01):
But it took me till my forties or fifties to
know how to do that. And Iremember I went to my fifth high
school reunion, and my only movein a cocktail setting to get out
of conversation was to say, I'vegot to go to the bar. And so 20
since my high school reunion,I'm so drunk I had to leave
because I'd gone to the bar likesix times.
Marcus Goodyear (12:20):
But you could've gotten to water.
David Brooks (12:21):
I could've gotten to water.
News Clip (12:22):
Bartender's like, do wanna swap the water here?
David Brooks (12:27):
That that part is basic etiquette. Then some of it
is like being more considerate.Like, someone has lost a child
and you're in conversation withthem. Do you talk about it or
don't? And so I had a friend wholost a child and she said,
people are afraid to mention mydaughter Anna to me because they
don't raise a bad subject.
(12:48):
But they should know Anna isalways on my mind and if you
raise it then I can talk abouther if I want to if I don't feel
like I won't but you've given methe option. And so these are
just basic rules, social skills.We the way you teach tennis or
carpentry, we we could teachthese skills better, and I think
it would do a lot of good.
Camille Hall-Ortega (13:04):
It seems like we're out of practice. I
think so much of what our worldadvancement in the world today
has offered us has also sort ofcrippled us in this realm that
we are able to escape reallyeasily from having to practice
how to be in relation with oneanother. And that escape is
really welcome for a lot offolks, But then yet you get to
(13:26):
your high school reunion and yougo, when can I leave? Right?
David Brooks (13:29):
Yeah. Yeah. And as Marcus said, you know, we used
to have these rules ofetiquette. And to me, I was
raised in a generation. Theyseemed stuffy.
They seemed old fashioned. Theyseemed artificial and
pretentious. But it turns out ifyou don't have those rules, life
can get pretty ragged. And sofor example, I'm old enough to
have been at a time, I wasn'tthere like in the 1950's when
(13:51):
people were like, they would pina girl out of this was like if
you're in high school you wantto go out with somebody who put
a pin on her that was a thing. Iwasn't around for that but I was
around for you ask a girl outthen you're going steady and you
you have an officialrelationship, you know where you
stand and then you break up.
And when I talk to my students,those courtship rituals are gone
(14:13):
and they often don't know wherethey stand if it's a hookup is
it are we having a relationshipor we're not having a
relationship and so some ofthose artificial rules have been
taken away and in some ways it'sliberating but in some ways it's
anarchy.
Marcus Goodyear (14:27):
Wow. I feel like morality in general is kind
of on the edge of thisconversation too. And I'm
wondering like what morals do weneed to be teaching in our
society right now? How can wehow can we shift the morals that
we're teaching?
David Brooks (14:42):
Yeah. Well, it used to be that moral formation
was at the center of everyinstitution. And so there's a
school in England called theStowe School. And the headmaster
there said, our job as a schoolis to turn out young men and
women who will be acceptable ata dance, invaluable at a
shipwreck. The kind of peopleyou can turn to when people
(15:02):
chips are down.
And that was their job. That wasthe primary job. And that was
the primary job. If you look atthe National Education
Association in this country,they said character formation is
the primary job of schools aslate as the 1960s. But now, if
you look at how schools behave,some of them still talk a good
game, it's about characterformation, but really it's about
SAT scores, standardized tests,and been getting kids into the
(15:26):
college their parents can beproud of.
Marcus Goodyear (15:28):
And it has to be, right? Because we have a
kind of a stated meritocracy,and I know that it's
complicated. You've writtenabout in ways that are really
interesting to me. But if kidsdon't show their merit, they
will not get a good jobpotentially. The stakes are
really high.
Camille Hall-Ortega (15:45):
We've created this madness,
David Brooks (15:47):
Yeah, I mean your characters, your ability to
persevere, it's more importantthan how smart you are. How do
you how well you do onstandardized tests. And so my
definition of moral formationcomes from the gospel of Ted
Lasso.
Camille Hall-Ortega (16:02):
Perfect.
David Brooks (16:03):
The first season of that show, he was asked,
what's your goals for yourfootball team, FC Richmond? And
he said, my goal is not to win achampionship. It's to help these
fellows become better the bestversions of themselves on and
off the field.
And that's it. Becoming the bestversion of yourself on and off
the field. And what Jim Lehrerdid to me with those eye crinkle
and the mouth downturn, that'smoral formation. He was the
(16:26):
standard on how to what here'show we do things here, how to be
an excellent. And so it doesn'thave to be like Stern rules of
those sometimes help. I wrote acolumn years ago on how hard it
was to teach more formation in aclassroom. And I got an email
from a veterinarian in Oregonand he says, never forget what a
wise person says is the least ofthat which they give. What gets
(16:49):
communicated is the smallest oftheir gestures.
So if you're in a classroom, isthe teacher generous toward you?
Is the teacher really interestedin seeing you and understanding
you? And those kind of smallgestures get communicated. We're
all spreading moral ecologiesevery second of every day and
people are watching us moreclosely than we think. And
really that's how moralformation happens in everyday
(17:11):
life. I wanna know, are youconsiderate toward me? And if
you are, I'll become a littlemore considerate because I'll
what it looks like.
Camille Hall-Ortega (17:18):
That's really good. I would always say
I I taught at the college levelpreviously, and I would always
say the best reviews that Iwould get from students came
from the ones who would come tooffice hours because they got to
see more. You had a betteropportunity, more time to show
yourself as being consideratetoward them. Right? They see a
lecture, and they see the gradesthey get, and they go, this
(17:40):
class is too hard, or she's atough grader. The ones that
would come and spend time andreally desire to learn would see
how relational you are. Right?
David Brooks (17:50):
Yeah. I'll tell you one of my best moments as a
teacher. And so I I was teachingup at Yale and I would teach
Tuesday morning and Wednesday,Tuesday night, Tuesday afternoon
and Wednesday morning. That wasmy class schedule and then when
I was in New Haven. And so I hadoffice hours, what I called
office hours, at a restaurant ora bar on Tuesday nights. And
sometimes we'd go to like one inthe morning. It was just me and
(18:11):
like seven or eight students andit was totally fun. And I was
courting a woman who happened towork at the Howard Butt
Foundation and lived in Houston.
Camille Hall-Ortega (18:20):
Oh, wow.
David Brooks (18:21):
And she was gonna fly to New Haven and tell me
whether she was gonna marry me.And so I thought I didn't I
didn't tell my students that,but I told them that I was going
to cancel office hours and thatevening of the 24 students in
the seminar 18 of them sent mean email saying professor Brooks
(18:42):
I just want you know, I'mpraying for you and we're going
through but I'm thinking of you.And that changed the temperature
of that classroom the wholetime. Because suddenly I wasn't
Professor Brooks.
I was just another schmo goingthrough the normal stuff normal
people go through. And so it wasa revelation to me as a teacher
to be not super vulnerable, butslightly more human and
(19:04):
vulnerable than maybe I'mcomfortable with being. Then
it'll it'll really change thetemperature and get people
really relating to you in a way.
Camille Hall-Ortega (19:11):
Sure.
David Brooks (19:12):
And she told me she would never marry me. And
now we've been married for eightyears, so it all worked out at
the end.
Camille Hall-Ortega (19:17):
Oh, I love that story. That's beautiful.
That's beautiful. And I think ittouches on another point here,
right, that this sort of powerof vulnerability, that there's
this element that we want torelate to one another, and that
vulnerability humanizes in a waythat people can appreciate,
(19:39):
people can relate to. They seethemselves in you.
David Brooks (19:42):
Yeah. And you can feel how hard that vulnerability
is when you feel the world isdistrustful.
Camille Hall-Ortega (19:48):
Sure.
David Brooks (19:49):
And then you don't wanna do it. And one of the, I
had a moment. It was afterOctober 7, I was in a hotel bar
and I was you would have saiddrinking alone. But I would I
call it reporting. So I I was onmy phone at this bar late at
night and I'm scrolling throughall this these images from The
(20:11):
Middle East And you can imaginethey're brutal, brutal images.
Camille Hall-Ortega (20:15):
Yeah.
David Brooks (20:15):
But then I come across a little video, black and
white video, of the novelistJames Baldwin. And I I stop on
that video and I listen to whathe says, and it's just a few
seconds. And he says, there'snot as much humanity as one
would like in the world, butthere's enough. There's more
than you would think. And thenhe says, you have to remember,
when you walk down the street,every person you see, you could
(20:37):
be that person. That personcould be you. And you have to
decide who you wanna be.
And so James Baldwin had theright to be very distrustful of
American society because of theterrible way American society
treated him. But he still, evenin that harshness, made the
ultimate humanistic comment. Youcould be that person.
(20:58):
That person could be you. Andwhen I was watching the video,
the phrase that left my mind wasdefiant humanism. That even in
harsh and brutal times, evenwhen the world is really being
unfair to you, that he still wasgonna insist on being a human
and treating other people ashumans. And it seems to me it's
scary, but in harsh and brutaland polarizing times, that kind
(21:19):
of defiant humanism is whatwe're called to do, even while
we understand how vulnerability,it will lead people to betray
you. But I found in life, if youlead with trust, then most of
the times people will show upfor you and respond with trust
in trustworthy ways.
News Clip (21:34):
So good.
That makes me think of AI.You're talking about humanism
and being human I'm very awareright now that we have this
technology that is pretending tobe human. For the first time in
human history do we have atechnology like this. And I'm
curious what do you think thatdoes to our moral intuition when
(21:59):
we're surrounded by technologiesthat are acting like they care?
David Brooks (22:03):
Yeah. Well, it's, AI simulates humanity, but it's
not.
Marcus Goodyear (22:08):
Right.
David Brooks (22:08):
It has no emotion. It has no agency. It has no
sense of self. And so I'll giveyou my upbeat version. I can
give you my downbeat version ofthe AI future. But my upbeat
version is that it's gonnaremind us who we are by
revealing what it can't do.
Marcus Goodyear (22:21):
Yes.
David Brooks (22:22):
And so there's certain things that it can't
that it it's really good at.It's really good at taking
batches of information andsynthesizing it into a
paragraph. It's really bad atdesiring things. It doesn't have
desire. It's really bad athaving a distinct voice. It's
really bad at coming up withunusual opinions. So, and it's
(22:43):
really bad at actual empathy.And so, I do think it's going to
help us see what is at the coreof ourselves and maybe disabuse
of a notion that has been toopowerful for a hundred years,
which is that the core humantrait is intelligence. I don't
think that's the core humantrait. And so if AI takes on
some of that certain kinds ofintelligence, it doesn't bother
(23:05):
me.
As long as we have our emotions,our will, our passions, our
character, our soul, ourspiritual yearnings, that
strikes me as more at the coreof being human than your SAT
score.
Camille Hall-Ortega (23:16):
Right.
Marcus Goodyear (23:16):
That's a good answer. I like it. If you were
to flip it, you said you couldhave flipped it.
David Brooks (23:22):
How do you do the negative? Well, you know, I'm I
just look at my students andsome of them are using AI to
write their papers. And at thecurrent technology, I can always
tell that voice is abstract, andit's like they the structure is
all too formulaic. And if you'redoing that, all you're doing is
robbing yourself of aneducation. If you're using AI to
(23:42):
write your papers, like and evenif you think, oh, I'll only help
do the help it do my firstdraft.
Well, your first draft is howyou think. And and writing badly
is part of the process ofactually learning something. And
if we use AI as a crutch, thenwe will simply not develop as as
full human beings. And that'snot even to talk about the, you
know, the job displacement andall the rest.
Camille Hall-Ortega (24:04):
Really good. We were talking a bit
about morals and and how itseems like in some ways we've
lost our way. How do we find ourway? Where where are we supposed
to sort of begin to get betterat all of that, really?
David Brooks (24:21):
Yeah. Well, I think the first step is just
seeing each other better. And soI do think the, you know, the
the primary source of a goodsociety is people feel seen,
heard, respected, understood.And so that's a set of skills,
like I said, but it's also aposture.
(24:41):
It's a posture that says we'reall made in the image of God and
each person is deserving ofrespect reverence and respect.
And if you start with thatposture, then you're probably
gonna do okay. But then thesecond thing is just become
really good at asking each otherquestions. And you know, my job
as a journalist and your job aspodcast host is to ask people
(25:04):
questions. And in my lifetime,how many times has somebody said
to me, none of your damnbusiness? And the answer is
zero.
Camille Hall-Ortega (25:13):
Yeah.
David Brooks (25:13):
Because if you ask people to tell you their life
story in a respectful way, noone has ever asked them that.
And they are delighted to do it.And so to me, that's the core
thing.
Simone Weil, this mystic, Frenchmystic in World War II, she said
attention is the ultimate formof generosity. And one of her
(25:33):
disciples said that most of thetime we see each other with self
centered eyes. And our real jobis to cast a just and loving
attention on each other. And sothat's the right kind of
attention. The novelist I wasthinking of is Iris Murdoch.
And so it's the act of castingattention is the prime the first
(25:54):
moral act. I'm reminded, don'tknow if this is apropos, but I
once heard about an interviewthat Dan Rather, the CBS
newsman, did with Mother Teresa.And he asked her when you pray
to God, what do you say to himand she says I don't say
anything I just listen. And heasked her what is your what is
(26:14):
God saying to you and she saysoh he's not saying anything he's
just listening. And she says, ifyou can't understand what I'm
talking about, I can't explainit to you.
Camille Hall-Ortega (26:23):
I love this idea of asking each other
questions. We used to say and itdoesn't seem true for everyone,
but we used to say, if you'relooking for something to talk
about with someone, theirfavorite subject is themself.
People love to and so we wouldencourage our students, you
know, if you're if you aretrying to get to know someone or
impress someone, make sure touse their name a few times in
(26:45):
the conversation and ask themquestions about themselves. You
know, even if you don't careabout these people's kids, ask
about their kids. People willnever tire of talking about
their kids.
Right? Some of that can seemsort of superficial or script
script like. But in the end, itoftentimes helps us get where we
(27:07):
need to be, which is justlearning more about one another.
David Brooks (27:10):
Yeah. I'm a friend with a guy, a social
psychologist named Nick Epley atthe University of Chicago. And
we were on a stage in front of,I don't know, an audience. And
we were talking on one of theseconversations. And then he
interrupted our conversation.
And he said to the audience,Okay, we're going to, David and
I are going to stop talking now.But I want you, every one of
you, to find somebody in theroom you don't know and spend
(27:32):
the next ten minutes tellingthem about the high point of
your life, the low point of yourlife, and the turning point of
your life. And this big groanwent up from the audience, and
he said, how many of you don'twant to do this? And 80% of the
hands went up. And he said goand so they all found somebody.
They all found somebody theystarted doing this exercise and
(27:54):
ten minutes later we couldn'tget them to shut up. We're
having such a good time Andfinally, twenty minutes later,
we got them to quiet down andpay back attention to us. And
Nick said, how many of youenjoyed that? And 80% of the
hands went up again. And so thelesson, and this is comes from
his research, that weunderestimate how much we'll
enjoy talking to strangers.
(28:14):
We underestimate how deep peoplewant to go. And so we
underestimate what pleasure itis to talk to another human
being. And so now when I'm on aplane, not all the time, but
sometimes when I've got an hourleft in the flight, I won't do
the whole flight, but maybe whenthere's an hour left, I'll take
off my headphones and see if wecan have a conversation. And
that is a surefire way toimprove your life, by the way,
(28:37):
because the people you talk to,they're always more interesting
than whatever it is you happento be reading.
Marcus Goodyear (28:42):
I'm imagining when you do that on an airplane,
do people know who you are? Doesthat help introduce the
conversation or is that abarrier to conversation?
David Brooks (28:52):
It's a barrier. I when they know who I am, I don't
do it because I don't need toplay that rep, that game. If
they don't know who I am, we canjust have a normal conversation,
then it's a natural conversationand it's more fun.
Marcus Goodyear (29:07):
And forgive me if this is silly, but we were
talking about, you know, thingsthat people, you wish people had
taught you that you didn't know.How do you initiate the
conversation in the planewithout seeming weird?
David Brooks (29:21):
Well, it's like it's like what Camille said. You
find something they're proud of.And if they're wearing a New
York Mets jersey, then I'll askthem about the New York Mets or
their kids soccer team oranything. And then before long,
I can get to the spot where it'sjust my next go to, which is
asking, Where'd you grow up? AndI travel a lot and there's a
(29:43):
good chance I've been there.
But then if I even haven't,people love to talk about their
childhood. And then as theconversation develops, you can
push it pretty fast. People loveto talk to strangers and
sometimes they're moreuninhibited with strangers than
with adults. And so some of thegood questions are the good
questions I like are they liftyou out of your normal view of
(30:03):
yourself and they allow you tosee your life from a higher
vantage point. So like, if thisfive years is a chapter in your
life, what's the chapter about?
And then people get tostep back, and then, you know,
what crossroads are you at? Areyou in the middle of some sort
of transition? This, this, yougotta know people. But I had a
(30:24):
friend who was in a jobinterview and he turned to the
interviewer. He was beinginterviewed.
And he said, what would you doif you weren't afraid? And she
started crying because shewouldn't be doing HR at that
company if she wasn't afraid.She's too afraid to leave. And
so fear plays a role in ourlives. And so you have to build
some trust before you ask thatquestion, believe me.
(30:46):
But you can get there with somespeed. And people just love
telling the stories of theirlives. And the one thing I've
learned is always get them tostorytelling mode. So I never
asked people what do you believeI said how did you come to
believe that and then suddenlythey're telling me about some
mentor or some experience theyhad and when they're in
(31:06):
narrative mode then they'rereally talking in a more natural
way. We were born to talk instories.
Marcus Goodyear (31:12):
Yeah. They're being relational, right? They're
talking about the relationshipthat brought them to a certain
understanding rather than namingthe truth.
David Brooks (31:21):
And I found it it doesn't take long before they're
pulling out their phone andshowing you pictures.
Camille Hall-Ortega (31:26):
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.
David Brooks (31:29):
Yeah.
Camille Hall-Ortega (31:29):
I wonder maybe then if if we can get a
story out of you. We we talkedagain yeah. We talked about
morals as sort of a through athrough line of our conversation
here. And I wonder who shapedyour morals in your life?
David Brooks (31:43):
Yeah. I would say a bit it's my family. My
grandfather was a he wasactually born here, but his
grandfather was an immigrant.And so he had the immigrant
mentality that we're sort ofmarginal to this society but
we're gonna make it here nomatter what. We're gonna work
our rears off and we're gonnamake it here. And that really
was pretty formative. I'm not animmigrant but I still think I
(32:03):
have that immigrant mentality.
Camille Hall-Ortega (32:05):
Yeah.
David Brooks (32:05):
And my, I grew up in Lower Manhattan, on the Lower
East Side Of Manhattan. And mywife used to be a trustee at a
university called Nyack College,which was a Christian college in
New York City. And I would govisit the students there and
they were really immigrants fromall over the country, all over
the world. And some of themdidn't look like me, but that
hustle, that immigrant hustle, Irecognized it. Was just like my
(32:26):
grandfather.
So that was very formative. Andthen frankly, went to the
University of Chicago where ourprofessors, they did a lousy job
of preparing us for theworkforce, believe me. But they
did a great job of trying toconvey what matters in life. My
professors said, if you readthese books, these great books,
(32:47):
whether it's Aristotle orSocrates or Rousseau or whoever,
and you think about themcarefully, you will have the
keys to the magic kingdom of howto live. And once you've tasted
the fine wine, the grape juiceis not satisfying. And so they
instilled in me a love of greatdeep reading. And I think that's
that's been a great gift to mylife that they they gave me.
Camille Hall-Ortega (33:10):
Really good. Thank you for sharing
that.
Marcus Goodyear (33:12):
Speaking of deep reading, that makes me
think of just engaging with artof all kinds. Recently we
discovered that there is in ouraudio archives some clips from
Ronald Reagan who spoke at afoundation event back when he
was governor. So this is hewasn't actually at Laity Lodge,
is our adult retreat center, buthe was at an event that
(33:35):
essentially the staff of LaityLodge was putting on. I believe
it was in California. And hetalks, in this clip about the
importance of art and deepattention to art in shaping I
would love to just get your takeon this.
Here's Ronald Reagan.
Ronald Reagan (33:56):
One of our truly great playwrights, Maxwell
Anderson, evidently believedthat each of us can practice
faith in his daily work. He saidthe purpose of the theater is to
find and hold up to our regardwhat is admirable in the human
race. The theater is a religiousinstitution devoted to the
exaltation of the spirit of man.It is an attempt to prove that
(34:19):
man has a dignity and a destiny,that life is worth living, and
that he is not purely animalwithout purpose. He went on to
say, Analyze any play which hassurvived the test of continued
favor, and you will find a moralor a rule of social conduct
which is considered valuableenough to learn and pass along.
(34:41):
The theater is the centralartistic symbol of the struggle
of good and evil within man. Itsteaching is that the struggle is
eternal and unremitting, thatthe forces which would drag men
down are always present, alwaysready to attack, that the forces
which make for good cannot sleepthrough the night without
(35:02):
danger.
David Brooks (35:04):
I I have a couple reactions. First of all, it
makes sense that he he was anactor, the theater would be
important. Second, I can't helpbut reminding myself that one of
his big hit movies was calledBedtime for Bonzo, about him and
his relationship with a monkey,which I'm not sure really lived
up to the high calling that hejust described in that that
quotation.
Marcus Goodyear (35:23):
We all take ourselves very seriously.
David Brooks (35:24):
It's entertaining. And I guess the final
distinction I've made is I don'tthink play is like a sermon. I
don't think it's there to likehammer a moral message over us.
Yeah. But I do think what a playor any artwork is there is to
help us understand humanity andto understand the essential
(35:46):
dignity of humanity.
And in that is its morals, asyou see people struggling with
right and wrong. As I waslistening to that, I was
reminded that I'm not gonna getthe quote right, but the great
novelist John Steinbeck in hisbook East of Eden says, he says
there's only one struggle and atthe end of life, the only
essential question of did I dowell or did I do ill? And he
(36:07):
said this struggle between goodand evil is operating on all
levels of our consciousness. AndI think the job of theater,
literature, or art is to show usin that struggle, not
necessarily to sermonize us intohow to do it. And when you do
that, a, you're spreadingempathy.
If you want to have your kidslearn empathy, literally, this
(36:29):
is research, the number onething you should have them do is
get involved in their school'sdrama department.
Marcus Goodyear (36:34):
Yes. Preach it.
David Brooks (36:36):
The act of inhabiting another role is
that's empathy. And I wrote abook on how to know people, and
my best interviews were oftenwith actors.
Like I got to interview MatthewMcConaughey and he said, of the
things I do when I'm trying toget into a role is I look at the
one gesture that guy does thatreveals his character. And he
said, some people are front inthe hands pocket. They're hands
(36:58):
in the front pocket kind ofpeople. They put their hands in
their front pockets. They'rekinda curled in on themselves.
And I know if that guy's curledin on himself, if he's gonna try
to be assertive and big, he'sgonna be a little fake. He's
gonna overdo it.
Camille Hall-Ortega (37:11):
Mhmm.
David Brooks (37:11):
And so those one little gestures from McConaughey
were a way for him to understandsort of at the core of that
being. And there's a quote fromViola Davis I saw where she
says, we're thieves. We'relooking to gesture, and we're
trying to see why did thisperson nod their head that way?
Why do they swallow this way?Like, we I'm just looking around
observing people. And so I dothink the theater plays a great
(37:32):
role in humanizing societybecause it shows us what's going
on in another person's mind andheart. And every bit of time you
can do that is, to me, the mostpractical thing you can do.
If you don't understand otherpeople, you're gonna be
miserable and make other peoplemiserable. And so all the things
that we think are soft andsquishy, like theater, art,
(37:53):
music, those are hard andpractical in my book. And as we
eliminate them from school, thatfeeds into a lot of the
dehumanization we've beentalking about.
Camille Hall-Ortega (38:01):
Sure. I love that, this idea, because I
think some of what Ronald Reaganwas discussing there really is
what you were hitting on aboutyour professors from University
of Chicago, which is that theywere conveying what matters in
life. And so perhaps these playsor these works of art aren't
(38:22):
showing in this very explicitway, we should behave like this,
this is what morals look like.But get to know people because
that's that's what matters inlife.
David Brooks (38:32):
Yeah. Like like, take Hamlet. Like, somebody
kills his father, and one valuesystem that he's inherited from
the classical world saysrevenge. Kill the guy who killed
your father. That's your job.
Camille Hall-Ortega (38:46):
Yeah.
David Brooks (38:47):
But then another moral tradition he's inherited
from Christianity says love yourenemy. Revenge is not what
you're supposed to do. And so wesee a guy, Hamlet, who's caught
between these two value systems.And Shakespeare isn't saying he
should have chose column Arather than column B. He's just
showing a guy caught betweenthese two value systems.
Camille Hall-Ortega (39:04):
Right. The tension is the story.
David Brooks (39:07):
Right. Exactly.
Marcus Goodyear (39:08):
How do we learn to trust each other when we feel
that divide within us? You knowwe feel the conflict in our own
value systems so when we alreadyexperience our own conflict how
are we learning to trust otherswho we know implicitly are also
in conflict?
David Brooks (39:25):
Yeah. It's hard to trust people who don't share
your value system. And becausebecause trust is faith that
you'll do what you ought to do.And your trust in me is faith
that I will do what I ought todo. But for that to happen, we
both have to have the sameunderstanding of what we ought
to do.
Camille Hall-Ortega (39:43):
Yeah.
David Brooks (39:44):
And so that requires shared values. And then
beyond shared values, we have tohave faith that we each
understand the norms that guideus in these circumstances. So if
I'm on the highway and two lanesare merging into one, I know the
left lane goes and then theright lane goes. The left lane
goes and the right lane goes.
And if somebody butts in line,I'm gonna honk at them because I
(40:05):
wanna enforce the norms. No,this is how we do things. And
that's how trust is built. And Ithink one of the things that I
think is at the core of a lot ofour problems is that we've
privatized morality. Instead ofbelieving that morality is a
shared thing that that is anorder in which we all live, that
betrayal is always wrong,adultery is always wrong,
(40:26):
segregation is always wrong,whatever, it's always wrong.
And it's not just a matter ofcircumstances. Betrayal is
always wrong. There's never beena society on Earth where people
were praised for running away inbattle. I think CS Lewis wrote
that. So there are I think thereare some universal moral truths.
(40:46):
If we tell people, you come upwith your own morality, then
we're privatizing morality. It'snot gonna be a shared possession
anymore. And there was a greatbook by a guy named Walter
Lippmann in 1955. He was anewspaper columnist. And he
wrote, if what is good and badis a matter of personal opinion
based on our own individualfeelings, then we are outside
(41:09):
the realm of civilization.
And I think the value, hyperindividualist values we've sent
over the last fifty years, comeup with your own morality, come
up with your own truth.
Camille Hall-Ortega (41:19):
Your truth and my truth.
David Brooks (41:21):
Yeah. Yeah. It's had the effect of making it
harder for each to connect witheach other.
Camille Hall-Ortega (41:24):
But people having different value systems
is a reality. Right? We can workon that perhaps, but the reality
is that people have differingvalue systems. How do we trust
them? How do we live life? Andin society with folks that we
know differ from us, perhaps invery deep and real ways. What
(41:46):
what do we do?
David Brooks (41:47):
Yeah. Well, first, I think there are some human
universals. So you may be stoic.You might think that I I'm I
shouldn't show emotion, I mightbe an anti stoic. I like showing
vulnerability.
And so we're going to bedifferent. But we probably have
some same beliefs that lying toeach other is wrong. That being
(42:08):
callous and cruel to each other.And as pluralists, and we live
in a pluralistic diversesociety, so we understand that
some values are universal andpretty rock solid. But, know,
whether I drive on the rightside of the wrong road or the
left side of the road, that'smore about custom.
And even how I regard dating.We're gonna have different
(42:31):
people have different values.Yeah. Negotiating those values
is hard, those differences, butit's also fun because it's
interesting to be aroundsomebody who's a very different
value system than you. I Iremember I had a friend who was
a foreign correspondent, and hewas in Korea and the young
people were protesting. And oneof the kids bit off his
(42:53):
fingertip and wrote a slogan inblood on the wall. And he said,
well, I understand why they callthis foreign correspondents
because that's very foreign tome. You know, you you see you
know, I've been a foreigncorrespondent myself, and you
you go to Russia and peoplethere have you know, they
they're from a differentculture. They've got different
values.
(43:13):
And I found some of the bestpeople on earth are Russian.
Some of the worst people onearth are Russian.
Camille Hall-Ortega (43:19):
Right.
David Brooks (43:19):
And so you you deal with that that pluralism
that that's just part of beingmodern.
Camille Hall-Ortega (43:25):
But sounds like what you're saying is find
the commonalities and lean in.Right? Because they're there. We
we have places where we canagree. But then there's also
this notion of in in faith,sometimes we call it open handed
and closed handed issues.
If you believe that it's rightto harm children, we're never
(43:46):
going to be on the same page.That's not that's not an open
handed issue.
David Brooks (43:50):
Yeah. I I would just say that and nobody has a
monopoly on being right. So itit could be that my moral value
system has some blind spots, italmost certainly does.
Marcus Goodyear (44:00):
David, if somebody is young and listening
to this, we've been talkingabout morality, we've been
talking about the lack of trust,we've been talking about some
pretty dark statistics, whatwhat encouragement do you have
for Gen Z, for Gen Alpha?
David Brooks (44:18):
One of the hard parts about being in Gen Z is
how often rejection comes.Because it's important to apply.
It's so easy online to apply fora job, or to apply for an
internship, or to apply for acollege, or to apply to be
somebody's boyfriend andgirlfriend, that there's just a
(44:38):
lot of applications than thereare spaces. And so people who
apply to college get rejected bymost as people try to get a
summer internship, I talked tokids who have to apply to a 150
to get one.
Camille Hall-Ortega (44:50):
Woah.
David Brooks (44:51):
And then they they swipe right on 900 people and
nobody responds. And so I havetremendous sympathy. So I was
talking to a young woman who'sin Gen Z, and she said, I wish
I'd been young in the 90's. Itseemed so much easier. And I
told her, I was real young inthe 90's, and it was.
I guarantee you, it was a loteasier. And so I just would say
(45:14):
to Gen Z, A, be not afraid. Thatyou will be betrayed. But if you
lean in onto that. The secondthing I'd say is over invest in
your friendships.
I have a friend who, when he wasin college, he got together with
10 of his closest collegefriends and they formed a giving
(45:35):
circle. And they said, we'regonna put some money in a pot
depending on what we can afford.Every year we're gonna get
together we're going to have himget together for three days and
decide where to give the money.And the purpose of this exercise
is not to give away money,though that's a nice side
effect. The purpose of this isto keep his college friendships
(45:56):
through the rest of your life.
And those friendships, thefriendships you make when you're
young are just so powerful. Andso over investing in friendships
is a good way to give yourself asecure base so when the
challenges of life come, you'vegot a secure base, and you can
handle them.
Camille Hall-Ortega (46:13):
So good. David, I feel like that's a
great place to end on a note ofhope. We're so grateful for your
help.
Marcus Goodyear: Hope in humanity. (46:21):
undefined
News Clip (46:23):
Thank you, David.
David Brooks (46:24):
It's been great to be with you guys. Thank you.
Marcus Goodyear (46:28):
The Echoes Podcast is written and produced
by Camille Hall-Ortega, RobStennett, and me, Marcus
Goodyear. It's edited by RobStennett and Kim Stone. Our
executive producers are PattonDodd and David Rogers. Special
thanks to our guest today, DavidBrooks. In addition to The
Echoes Podcast, we welcome youto subscribe to Echoes Magazine.
You'll receive a beautiful printmagazine each quarter. You can
find a link in our show notes.The Echoes Podcast and Echoes
(46:50):
Magazine are both productionsbrought to you by the H.E.Butt
Foundation. You can learn moreabout our vision and mission at
hebfdn.org.
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