May 27, 2025 • 31 mins
Do “kids these days” have you scratching your head? You’re not alone. In this episode, Dr. Crystal Kirgiss joins Camille Hall-Ortega and Marcus Goodyear to explore the ancient roots of adolescence, the unchanging traits of teenagers across time, and why understanding young adults has more to do with showing up than keeping up with trends. Whether you're a parent, a mentor, or just someone who wants to support the next generation, this conversation offers wisdom, encouragement, and a reminder that you’re not the first person to face these challenges.
Even if you don't have kids, simply being a good neighbor can include noticing and caring for teens in your community. You don’t need to be cool—you just need to be there.
Notes
- Dr. Crystal Kirgiss – Director of Discipleship Content at Young Life, author, speaker, and expert on the history of adolescence.
- Hosted by Camille Hall-Ortega and Marcus Goodyear.
- The Relate Study by Young Life
- Young Life Discipleship Resources
- Eugene Peterson’s book on raising teenagers
- Crystal’s article in the Echoes Magazine (Issue 1, 2025)
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Camille Hall-Ortega (00:00):
If you polled a crowd of people and
asked, what's the toughest jobanyone could have? I'm betting a
good number of folks would sayparenting. Sixty two percent of
parents say that parenting isharder than they expected.
Nearly half of millennialparents 46% say they feel burnt
(00:21):
out. With every stage ofparenting, from infants to
toddlers to parenting teens,challenges abound. As a mom of a
three and five year old, I hearI've got lots to look forward
to.
But there are tips and tricks tothis parenting game, right?
Constancts and predictabilitythat help make the path a bit
(00:43):
more straight? Crystal Kirgiss,our guest today, would answer
those questions with aresounding yes. Crystal is an
expert on adolescence, and shesays that the core traits of
adolescent youth, how theythink, act, and grow, have
stayed pretty consistent overthe centuries. Essentially,
Kirgiss claims the behaviors wesee in adolescents today are
(01:04):
really a tale as old as time.
So what can we learn from thesecenturies old patterns of human
development? What tips andencouragement can we derive from
the trends that so often seem tolead to frustration for parents
and teens alike? From the H.E.Butt Foundation, this is the
Echoes Podcast.
(01:25):
On today's episode, we'rewelcoming doctor Crystal
Kirgiss. Crystal is an awardwinning writer, a teacher, and a
national speaker. She currentlyworks as the director of
discipleship content andpartnerships for Young Life, a
Christian ministry that works togrow the faith of middle school,
high school, and collegestudents all over The US.
Crystal is also an expert onadolescence, having completed a
(01:46):
PhD in medieval literature andlinguistics with a focus on the
history of adolescence. We'rethrilled to have her here today.
I'm here with my co-host, MarcusGoodyear. Welcome, Crystal.
Crystal Kirgiss (01:57):
Thank you. It's lovely to be with you.
Camille Hall-Ortega (01:59):
Yeah.
Marcus Goodyear (02:00):
We're so glad you're here.
Crystal Kirgiss (02:01):
I feel like we should first make a caveat about
being an expert in adolescence.I don't think that's actually a
thing or possible. It was verykind. It was very kind, but I am
not an expert in adolescence.
Marcus Goodyear (02:17):
I don't know. I I feel like we named you as an
expert in my opinion. That'sthat's what it's worth.
Crystal Kirgiss (02:21):
I'll take it.
Camille Hall-Ortega (02:22):
Right. We vote yes. But that's fair. And I
think actually we're going toget into some of that of why it
might be this idea or this thingthat would be really hard to be
an expert at. I think we cantalk some about that.
But first, just getting started,Crystal, will you just tell us
what is adolescence? What agesdoes that even include? What
(02:43):
does it mean?
Crystal Kirgiss (02:44):
Yeah. Well, it's from an old Latin word,
adolescentia, and which justmeans youth if you were to
translate it straight up. So butit's been used, the word
adolescence, has been used for avery long time to refer to a
stage of life that is betweenchildhood and between adulthood.
I think for a long time, therewas sort of this popular idea
(03:06):
that went around that if youwent back far enough, you just
were a kid, and then all of asudden, one day you were an
adult, and there wasn't thistransitional stage. But this
transitional stage has beenrecognized and talked about and
described and defined for a longtime.
Camille Hall-Ortega (03:23):
Okay. I find that really helpful because
I think people would really wantus to pin down the age. Let's
just jump right into that. Whatare the findings that you've
seen in relation to these kindof through lines or patterns in
adolescence?
Crystal Kirgiss (03:39):
Yeah. Well, you know, research didn't look the
same back in the fourteen,fifteen, sixteen, seventeen,
eighteen hundreds as now. So youcan't look up lots of research.
You can just read concrete textsfrom that time and see what
people were saying. And thenotions that there was starting
to be a lot of emotionalupheaval, that appears over and
(04:01):
over again.
The tendency to sometimes makedecisions rashly without
thinking them through carefully.That description comes in over
and over again. The tendency topush back, challenge boundaries,
challenge authority. Thatdescription shows up over and
over again. The tendency tostart asking hard questions or
(04:25):
doubts about faith, that showsup over and over again.
So there were a lot of fears fora long time about the fact that
if the youth of the church orthe adolescents of the church
aren't embraced and solidifiedin their faith, there's not
gonna be a church in anothergeneration because they're the
generation that's up and coming.If the rising generation didn't
(04:47):
rise to the challenges of havinga rooted faith, then what was
gonna happen to the church?
Marcus Goodyear (04:53):
Well, and the culture, right? Because their
faith and church and culture,that was all bound up. So it was
almost a desire to see theculture perpetuate and to see
the culture have stability.
Crystal Kirgiss (05:04):
Sure. Sure. It was. I think there might be also
a myth that everybody wasinvolved with faith, and that's
not the case. But it was maybe alittle more woven into the day
to day lives of people than itis today. But yes, there were so
I think there were a lot offears about youth, teenagers.
Actually, the word teenagersisn't a new word either. There
(05:27):
are, no, there's, there aresermons and parenting books
going back many hundreds ofyears that talk about how now
they get into their teens inquotations, they might say, or
in parentheses, as we say, kindof like teens is a scare quote
word. They get into their teens,and now they now they don't
(05:47):
wanna do what you tell them todo, or they are pushing back on
school or on church attendanceor whatever it might be.
There was a lot of fear becauseteenagers could recite all the
ballads of Robin Hood, like allthe popular, narratives, but
they didn't know the Our Father,and they didn't know the creed.
Marcus Goodyear (06:09):
Oh, the evils of Robin Hood.
Crystal Kirgiss (06:11):
Yeah. Yeah. When when novels were a new
thing, they were afraid aboutnovels. When little Broadstreet
songs that they sold on thecorner for a penny were a new
thing, and they're they'redisgustingly dirty. They're very
awful. There was worries aboutthat. There was worries about
dancing. There was worries aboutall the same things that there
are worries about today.
Camille Hall-Ortega (06:32):
Wow. Okay. So I can imagine that these
characteristics playing out overtime lead to a lot of the things
looking very similar in a lot ofways. But I'd love to hear more
about how the times really canlead to something different.
Like our lives don't happen in avacuum.
(06:54):
I think we're living in a timeright now where technology makes
things seem to look reallydifferent than perhaps it would
be for folks going to the fairand buying German college.
Crystal Kirgiss (07:06):
Sure. A teenager growing up in 2025
looks very different in someways than a teenager growing up
in 1525. But I would add tothat, so does being an adult.
And I think sometimes we focusall the differences on
adolescents, and we forget thatit's impacting us as well. So
(07:30):
sometimes we feel like, we're wedon't change. Whoever we are as
the adult, we just stayconstant. But those kids, that
everything's changing. So arewe. So that's that's just an
important thing to keep in mindthat we we tend to isolate it or
point it all on them when it'sjust as much us.
Marcus Goodyear (07:51):
That's a really good point.
Camille Hall-Ortega (07:52):
Yeah. That's a huge point. I want us
to even unpack that more. Whatdoes that mean? What does that
look like? Can we boil it down abit?
Crystal Kirgiss (08:00):
I think if we could, we would have the answer
to so many questions.
Yes. Right.
Marcus Goodyear (08:04):
Yes. Alright. Let's do it. Alright. I want
those answers.
Crystal Kirgiss (08:07):
Yeah. This I don't have an answer, but this
would be one of the things I'vethought about in that regard.
Marcus Goodyear (08:14):
Sure.
Crystal Kirgiss (08:14):
One, some people's then immediate
responses.... Well, then I haveto figure out everything about
culture so that I can be moreaware of teenagers. And I would
say to that, you don't have toknow the lyrics to one single
new song or have watched onesingle new show or played one
(08:36):
single new game or whatever elsethere might be to understand
teenagers and adolescents if youjust spend time with them. It's
way more important to get toknow them than it is to get to
know culture. You can get reallysidetracked by that.
And the other thing would be youcould know everything there is
(08:57):
about Gen Z or Millennials ornow Gen Alpha, and it is not
going to make any differencein... let me back up. Knowing
everything about thosegenerations isn't going to help
you know those people unless youspend time with people of
different ages.
Marcus Goodyear (09:16):
It's a marketing demographic in so many
ways. You know? They're usinggenerational theory to sell
t-shirts and to sell movies andwhatever.
Crystal Kirgiss (09:24):
Very nice point, Marcus.
My kids, Camille's kids, areyounger than mine. Mine are 20
and 24. And so we just, Isuppose we're still in the
teenage years based on what yousaid earlier, but I feel like
we're coming out of it. And forme, I actually had very little
anxiety about needing todiscover the culture my family,
(09:48):
we took those tours of culturetogether. So my son became our
tour guide, my daughter becameour tour guide, and we just
discovered what they liked.
Marcus Goodyear (09:57):
And so there was some resistance to us
shadowing them. My son inparticular is very private, my
daughter as well. And so theywould say, Why are you asking
what we're watching? Why are youlooking over our shoulders when
we're on the computer? And therewas a degree of wanting to
protect them. But more thanthat, it was just, I'm
interested in what you'reinterested in.
Crystal Kirgiss (10:19):
Mhmm.
Marcus Goodyear (10:19):
And it's not more complicated than that.
Crystal Kirgiss (10:21):
You use the phrase cultural tour guide,
which is a brilliant that is alovely phrase to use.
Camille Hall-Ortega (10:27):
Yeah.
Crystal Kirgiss (10:28):
And I think inviting your kids to do that
for you could be a beautifulthing as long as you're ready
for what might be a pushbackthat I I'm of course, I'm not
gonna do that. You're the lastperson I would want to have
here. But that's a really lovelyimage, Marcus.
You should do something withthat. How to be how to invite
your teenager to be yourcultural tour guide, which
(10:52):
doesn't mean you're invitingthem to make all the decisions
or to be the head of the family.But I always find that when you
ask a student what they'reinterested in, you allow them to
be the expert in something.
Camille Hall-Ortega (11:08):
Yeah.
Crystal Kirgiss (11:08):
You can usually have a pretty good conversation.
Marcus Goodyear (11:10):
Mhmm. Mhmm.
Camille Hall-Ortega (11:11):
I love it. We've mentioned some of the
generations that are alive.Right? We've talked about Gen Z.
You talked about Gen Alpha.
I am a millennial. Marcus is GenX.
Marcus Goodyear (11:24):
Woo hoo. Gen X.
Camille Hall-Ortega (11:25):
Represent, we're representing multiple,
multiple generations here. Iknow that the youth that are in
adolescence right now or thegeneration that includes folks
that are in adolescence rightnow is Gen Z. Is that correct?
Crystal Kirgiss (11:43):
And in middle school, you've got Alphas as
well.
Camille Hall-Ortega (11:45):
Okay. Yeah. Some grammarian.
Crystal Kirgiss (11:47):
I even I hate that I just said that. Have
alphas as well.
Marcus Goodyear (11:51):
I know what you mean.
Crystal Kirgiss (11:52):
Because I, yeah. I just I don't know how
long we're gonna be able to dothis because I think the the
descriptions of generations tendto be centered around either big
cultural events or worldwideevents or technological events.
And at some point, those aregoing to shift too quickly for
us to keep making newgenerations. Even right now, Gen
(12:16):
Z, the gap that they embrace,the people on the high end of it
and the youngest end are reallyfar apart in what their
experiences might have been inculture. So I just wonder
generational theory is not it'sa fairly new thing.
You know, it didn't really startuntil the twentieth century. And
I wonder if it's gonna fade outafter a while because things are
simply changing too fast for usto define-
Camille Hall-Ortega (12:39):
Because of technology?
Crystal Kirgiss (12:40):
Because of how fast technology is changing.
Absolutely.
Camille Hall-Ortega (12:43):
We know boomers, they're a generation
defined by World War II. Knowthe silent generation. We know
the greatest generation. So weknow the things that sort of
defined those generations werenot about technology so much.
Crystal Kirgiss (12:57):
I wonder if even generational theory
developed because there were somany changes happening, we
wanted to put some parametersand definitions on it. Before
that, we were defining people bythe stage of life they were in.
You were a child. You were anadolescent. You were a young
adult. You were an adult. Youwere a senior adult or an
(13:19):
advanced adult. We keeping itwithin the lifespan. Now we're
defining it by other things,which I haven't thought about
this that much, but that's veryinteresting to me. It's like
we're taking it outside ofourselves.
Marcus Goodyear (13:31):
Well, and we're breaking our ability to connect
with the other generationsbecause historically, perhaps I
might have said I'm somebody inmy 50s, but now I say I'm a Gen
X'er, which means I'm able toconnect to the other people who
are Gen X, but I'm separatingmyself from the people who are
50 before me. And I'm separatingmyself from the people who are
gonna be 50 after me. It justmakes me wonder how useful are
(13:56):
these labels? I mean, they arethey really helping us do
anything more than just sellstuff?
Crystal Kirgiss (14:00):
I think if you're using it as a label- for
I work with teenagers.
Marcus Goodyear (14:04):
Right.
Crystal Kirgiss (14:05):
And so I work with Gen Z right now. But my
husband's been in youth work for35 years. He just says he works
with teenagers. He didn't at onetime say, I work with
millennials, and I work with GenX, and now I work with Gen Z. He
just says, I work with teenagersbecause that stays constant.
I don't know if we're gonna keepdefining generations or if at
(14:26):
some point we won't. We're veryjazzed about talking about
generations right now. It's avery hot conversation. I don't
know if we will be for muchlonger. I don't know, maybe.
Camille Hall-Ortega (14:36):
But I would say that I feel certain
important distinctions from GenZ and certainly from Gen Alpha.
And I feel really what feelslike important comradery with
Millennials. And I don't know ifthat is because I'm told to,
right? Society kind of hypes itup for me, but it does feel
(15:00):
like, oh my gosh, I can lookover to a Millennial and say,
NSYNC or Backstreet Boys. Andthere's no question, we both
have an answer to that, right?And maybe that feels silly, but
there's there is this connectionthat happens that does not
always happen if I'm asking mymom that or if I'm asking
someone from Gen X that.
Crystal Kirgiss (15:20):
Sure.
Camille Hall-Ortega (15:20):
It's not gonna be the same.
Crystal Kirgiss (15:21):
It could be because you're a Millennial or
it could be because you grew upin this year, which is kind of
connected. Or it could bebecause you're the age you are.
I mean, that could be because ofa lot of things. We do like to
have categories. Actually,that's a very medieval thing.
Like, the need to categorize andorganize is not a new thing. I
(15:42):
think the bigger question iswhat are we doing with that?
Camille Hall-Ortega (15:45):
Right. Right.
Crystal Kirgiss (15:46):
Is it serving us, or does it just fill a need
in us to kind of put a post itnote on everything and put it in
a file and contain it? Or doesit move us forward in some way?
And I certainly don't know theanswer to that.
Camille Hall-Ortega (16:01):
Yeah. I think these are big questions. I
can see how it can bedetrimental or shallow and not
useful. And I can also see howit could be, I don't know, this
thing of, I know thatmillennials share with me that
they can remember where theywere on 9/11. And I know that
the generations after me cannot.
They weren't born or they don'tremember. And I know that my
(16:25):
kids don't remember thepandemic. They are pandemic
babies, but they don't recall itand they won't recall it.
Crystal Kirgiss (16:32):
Sure. But is that the most important thing?
That's the one question is, Arewe, are we putting more
importance on things than weshould or on the wrong things?
Those are huge questions.
Camille Hall-Ortega (16:45):
And in the end, I would still say the
bigger call on our lives is toactually know people, not know
about generations
Marcus Goodyear (16:56):
Mhmm.
Crystal Kirgiss (16:56):
Or not know about a life stage, but to
actually know people, which isway harder.
Camille Hall-Ortega (17:02):
Really important stuff, really
important. Now I know, Crystal,you are working with Young Life
and you have this background inresearch in adolescence. I would
love to know, you've touched onit a bit, but I would love to
know first how your research onadolescence and your knowledge
of adolescence, how it informsyour work and how you see these
trends in adolescence play outin faith in general.
Crystal Kirgiss (17:26):
Okay. Wow. Big question. First of all, I don't
do a lot of contemporaryresearch in adolescence. We do
have some people who do that.But my research, if you will,
from my PhD was in ancientthings. And so part of that
happened because-
Marcus Goodyear (17:43):
Ancient means how far back?
Crystal Kirgiss (17:45):
I I went back into the a 900's, a little bit
when when people were first kindof defining, you know, eight
stages of life, they weren'tdoing generational theory like
today, but they were doingstages of life. And it was
usually divided into four or 10or 12. You know, they try and
(18:07):
connect it to something in thelarger universe, like the
seasons or the months or theplanets or whatever. But I still
find that very interesting. I'mjust getting home from
conference with some pastors
Camille Hall-Ortega (18:19):
Mhmm.
Crystal Kirgiss (18:20):
Where I talked about the history of youth over
time.
Camille Hall-Ortega (18:23):
Yeah.
Crystal Kirgiss (18:24):
For them to hear what pastors have been
saying for a long time, whatparenting manuals have been
saying for a long time. Once youonce your children hit this age,
this is what you might face.This is what you might
experience, and this is what youshould be ready for. Like,
talking about once you hit thisage, moms, you're gonna need to
(18:45):
start pouring into yourdaughters more. Their emotions,
you'll understand more. Theirinterests. Dads, you need to
start figuring out what yoursons seem to be interested in so
that you can direct them to thecorrect apprenticeship that's
going to match their interestsand their skills and abilities.
I mean, these are not newconversations.
So hearing what was said orreading about what was said in
(19:08):
parenting manuals for one isvery fascinating. And those have
been around for a very longtime, probably before printed
books. But as certainly as soonas they were printed books,
there were books for parents.
Marcus Goodyear (19:20):
People have asked me how I raised my kids.
And I have said that there'sthis Bible verse that says raise
them in the way they're bent andthey won't stray from it, Which
means to me to pay attention towhere they want to go. So in a
sense, I would follow theirlead. So when my son was
(19:43):
interested in video games, I waslike, great, let's build a
computer. And so I would try totake the things that were
interesting to them and-
Camille Hall-Ortega (19:52):
That's such a Marcus answer.
Marcus Goodyear (19:56):
You know, are we trying to-
Camille Hall-Ortega (19:57):
You want a video game? Make it.
Marcus Goodyear (19:59):
Yeah. Well, but he did. I mean, he was 12. He
was 11 or 12. And you can lookthese things up online. I mean,
it's hard, but it's not thathard. Anyone can do it.
Crystal Kirgiss (20:07):
Wow.
Marcus Goodyear (20:08):
And so we built a computer. And of course that
did wonders for his confidence.And my daughter, she wanted to
play violin. So it's like, okay,great. Let's get a, you know, we
just follow their lead. Shewanted to do mock trial. So we
follow that, we show up. And Ifeel like that is different than
what I imagine a lot of parentshear when they hear lead.
Crystal Kirgiss (20:29):
Yes.
Marcus Goodyear (20:32):
I'm imagining, I don't know that I've seen
this, I have seen it for some,but I imagine parents are
saying, I need to give my kidsthe prescription to follow so
that their life will be good. Ifeel-
Camille Hall-Ortega (20:46):
Or like God, right? We're Christian
parents also. So for us, mightbe hand them the guidebook that
we know is number one.
Not one for Barnes & Noble.
Marcus Goodyear (20:56):
Yeah.
Camille Hall-Ortega (20:59):
Sure.
Crystal Kirgiss (20:59):
Marcus, that what you just said is so
interesting because what youwere doing was you weren't
letting your kids go, this ishow I want you to parent me. You
were tapping into what they wereinterested in. You were tapping
into their interests, passions,and hobbies, and saying, there's
a there is a really goodconnection point for us right
(21:22):
there. But you weren't saying,why don't you tell me what kind
of hours you wanna keep and howyou want to spend all your free
time? Right? No. We want yourcurfew to be...
Marcus Goodyear (21:33):
Who would that? Who would do that?
Crystal Kirgiss (21:34):
Well, I will say there are parents today who
feel that they should be theirteenager's friend. That's their
best shot at any- I know.Following their lead is not
following them, nor is it I dothink there are some things that
(21:55):
we still dictate as parents ofteenagers. You are still the
parent, and and you are you haveevery right to dictate.
Sounds like a terrible word. Youhave every right to make
decisions for them and for yourfamily based on your role as a
parent. That's fine. So somepeople back off way too much.
(22:16):
Some people, press down way toomuch.
And I think there's a middlespace. A lot is changing in
adolescence. In some ways,they're dealing with identity
development. They're dealingwith figuring out how much
autonomy they have to make theirown decisions and be independent
people. And in that period oftime, we're hoping that their
(22:40):
faith cements itself.
And think about how ironic thatis. This is the stage of life
where they're like, I'm gonnafigure out who I am, and I'm
gonna make my own decisions. Andwe're saying there is a God who
his presence, his realness,defines your identity. And our
job is to completely surrenderourselves to him at a stage of
(23:04):
life where someone's going, I'mgonna make my own decisions and
decide who I am. In some ways,it feels like it should be a
total clash, which is why it'ssuch an important stage for life
or for faith to be real to them.
It's also easy for parents ofteenagers to simply tell them
what to believe or tell themwhat you believe, but not to
also share with them your faithexperiences. Like, this is how
(23:29):
I'm experiencing the Lord rightnow. This is what I'm praying
about. This is what's difficultfor me in my life of faith. They
need to hear what their parents'faith experiences are, not just
their faith framework for themto see that faith is a real
thing beyond just the exteriorof what's going on.
(23:51):
And I actually think that's oneof the hardest things to do as a
parent. I don't think I did itvery well. I wasn't even aware
of it at the time. But it's askill and a habit and a mindset
that I think is really importantfor Christian parents to have.
Camille Hall-Ortega (24:06):
Yeah. That's so good.
Marcus Goodyear (24:08):
I want to go back to this idea of how much
boundaries that parents givetheir kids and the idea of
balancing freedom and engagementand boundaries that really are
designed to protect our kids. Iwas very aware of those.
Although I will say one of thethings we decided to do was
(24:30):
never make decisions based onfear.
Crystal Kirgiss (24:33):
Oh, that's lovely.
Marcus Goodyear (24:34):
So this is a slight tangent, but I saw this
video, I don't know, fifteenyears ago about this guy who was
blind.
I think Camille's heard thisstory before. And his parents-
He's blind. He's a kid. And hisparents buy him a bike because
he wanted a bike. And he hadthis method of clicking so that
(24:55):
he could kind of get a sense ofecholocation of his environment.
And I thought to myself, yourkid is blind and you buy them a
bike.
I want to be that brave with mykids to follow their interests.
(25:17):
Still, you don't just send themoff down the mountain bike
trail, but to let them explore.And so thinking about that,
thinking about the balancebetween freedom and structure
and freedom and boundariesreminds me of this clip we've
queued up. I'd love to listen tothis with you from from
Laity Lodge and Allan Josephsonand and get your take on it.
Allan Josephson (25:39):
Tell me what I do right for a change. I want
you to understand that I have myown life to live. Balance with
that is do I have a guide?Freedom without structure is a
problem, and it's really linkedto that. So children need
regularity and structure,certain boundaries define
safety. There's been researchthat has shown when fences were
(26:01):
taken away from playgroundareas, kids were more insecure,
and when the fences were putback, they were able to play
with more freedom. They huddledin the center of the of the
playground without that. So soboundaries define safety, and
they also define freedom. Theycould only enjoy that freedom
unless there was structure, sothat there's panic with freedom
(26:21):
without structure. It's got tobe balanced.
Marcus Goodyear (26:25):
What do you think?
Crystal Kirgiss (26:27):
I think that's true for everybody, including
adults. When I listened to it, Ithought, isn't that true for all
of us?
Marcus Goodyear (26:37):
Yeah.
Crystal Kirgiss (26:39):
Can you imagine taking 10 kids and putting them
in a gym with a ball and twobaskets on the wall and say, you
have twenty minutes. Go. With nodefinition about what they're
doing or what the boundariesare, what the goal is, or what
(27:00):
the point is.
Marcus Goodyear (27:01):
Yeah. The rules make the game.
Crystal Kirgiss (27:03):
Every game has rules that give it life and
meaning and excitement and valueand purpose and identity and all
of those things. I thinkboundaries do that for all of us
at different stages of life. Thechallenge in adolescence is that
they are moving from a stage ofchildhood where we are really
(27:25):
defining all the boundaries andmaking many decisions for them.
And adulthood where they'regoing to have to do that all for
themselves or more so than now.And we're at this transition
stage where that is still a rolethat we play.
But we also have to allow themto learn how to make decisions
(27:46):
and learn how to even set someof their own boundaries that are
healthy for them. And if someonecould write the book that would
tell all of us or could havetold me when my kids were that
age how to do that, we wouldhave this whole thing figured
out. Right?
Camille Hall-Ortega (28:03):
We want folks to know just as this
episode comes out, that this isnot just an episode for parents.
Right?
Crystal Kirgiss (28:11):
Oh, yeah.
Camille Hall-Ortega (28:12):
That we talk a lot about being good
neighbors and being good to yourcommunity. What are some
takeaways that people who don'thave kids can can take from our
time together concerningadolescence?
Crystal Kirgiss (28:27):
Really, really great question, Camille. I have
a friend, Mark Ostreicher, whodoes a lot with teenagers, and
he has said this. I've heardother people say this. I've said
it. If you can shift fromthinking that adolescence is a
stage of life or people to besolved to these are people to
get to know and love. That mightbe enough right there.
Marcus Goodyear (28:50):
So simple.
Crystal Kirgiss (28:51):
Yeah. If you if you are a church attender, if
your church has a moment whenthey you greet somebody,
intentionally greet a teenager.They will go greet children or
their own age, but there's thestage of life that just gets
overlooked. At stores whereyou're shopping, there's a lot
(29:14):
of teenagers who are cashiers,and they almost always wear a
name tag. Thank them by name.Treat them like the beautiful,
lovely, God created person thatthey are. Even if they don't
reciprocate, most of them will.They're really very lovely
people once if you take the timeto get to know them.
Marcus Goodyear (29:34):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If you give respect, you
get it back.
Crystal Kirgiss (29:37):
Yeah. And I think being a good listener
would be another if you know ateenager and you ask them about
their life or ask them whatthey're interested in in a way
that's not doesn't come off asI'm here to fix things for you
or I'm here to help you. If youjust treat them like a human
being, I think you can have somereally lovely conversations. And
(30:01):
you then may be one of theadults. I knew this as a parent.
My kids didn't need just me andtheir dad. In fact...
Marcus Goodyear (30:11):
Mentors.
Crystal Kirgiss (30:12):
They needed lots of other people in their
life to see them and know them.
Marcus Goodyear (30:15):
Mhmm. Mhmm.
Crystal Kirgiss (30:16):
If you don't have teenagers of your own, you
might be one of the people who ateenager needs to help them
navigate this stage of life,feeling like they matter to
somebody, really matter, andthat they're really seen and
someone really cares about themand who they are.
Camille Hall-Ortega (30:33):
Well, that's great. I think that's
really a great place to end. Ithink you've given us a lot to
think about and a lot to hopefor, which we really appreciate.
Thank you, Crystal.
Crystal Kirgiss (30:42):
I think we should always be very hopeful.
Always.
Marcus Goodyear (30:44):
Yes.
Camille Hall-Ortega (30:45):
Yeah. Thank you so much for being with us.
Thank you for all of yourinsights. We're grateful.
Crystal Kirgiss (30:50):
Thanks for inviting me. It was a delight to
visit.
Camille Hall-Ortega (30:56):
The Echoes Podcast is written and produced
by Marcus Goodyear, RobStennett, and me, Camille
Hall-Ortega. It's edited by RobStennett and Kim Stone. Our
executive producers are PattonDodd and David Rogers. Special
thanks to our guest today,Doctor Crystal Kirgiss.
We recently featured Crystal inEchoes Magazine and you can read
the article online atechoesmagazine.org. While you're
(31:16):
there, consider subscribing.You'll receive a beautiful print
magazine each quarter, and it'sfree. You can find a link in our
show notes. The Echoes Podcastand Echoes Magazine are both
productions brought to you bythe H.E. Butt Foundation.
You can learn more about ourvision and mission at
hebfdn.org.
If you polled a crowd of people and
asked, what's the toughest jobanyone could have? I'm betting a
good number of folks would sayparenting. Sixty two percent of
parents say that parenting isharder than they expected.
Nearly half of millennialparents 46% say they feel burnt
(00:21):
out. With every stage ofparenting, from infants to
toddlers to parenting teens,challenges abound. As a mom of a
three and five year old, I hearI've got lots to look forward
to.
But there are tips and tricks tothis parenting game, right?
Constancts and predictabilitythat help make the path a bit
(00:43):
more straight? Crystal Kirgiss,our guest today, would answer
those questions with aresounding yes. Crystal is an
expert on adolescence, and shesays that the core traits of
adolescent youth, how theythink, act, and grow, have
stayed pretty consistent overthe centuries. Essentially,
Kirgiss claims the behaviors wesee in adolescents today are
(01:04):
really a tale as old as time.
So what can we learn from thesecenturies old patterns of human
development? What tips andencouragement can we derive from
the trends that so often seem tolead to frustration for parents
and teens alike? From the H.E.Butt Foundation, this is the
Echoes Podcast.
(01:25):
On today's episode, we'rewelcoming doctor Crystal
Kirgiss. Crystal is an awardwinning writer, a teacher, and a
national speaker. She currentlyworks as the director of
discipleship content andpartnerships for Young Life, a
Christian ministry that works togrow the faith of middle school,
high school, and collegestudents all over The US.
Crystal is also an expert onadolescence, having completed a
(01:46):
PhD in medieval literature andlinguistics with a focus on the
history of adolescence. We'rethrilled to have her here today.
I'm here with my co-host, MarcusGoodyear. Welcome, Crystal.
Crystal Kirgiss (01:57):
Thank you. It's lovely to be with you.
Camille Hall-Ortega (01:59):
Yeah.
Marcus Goodyear (02:00):
We're so glad you're here.
Crystal Kirgiss (02:01):
I feel like we should first make a caveat about
being an expert in adolescence.I don't think that's actually a
thing or possible. It was verykind. It was very kind, but I am
not an expert in adolescence.
Marcus Goodyear (02:17):
I don't know. I I feel like we named you as an
expert in my opinion. That'sthat's what it's worth.
Crystal Kirgiss (02:21):
I'll take it.
Camille Hall-Ortega (02:22):
Right. We vote yes. But that's fair. And I
think actually we're going toget into some of that of why it
might be this idea or this thingthat would be really hard to be
an expert at. I think we cantalk some about that.
But first, just getting started,Crystal, will you just tell us
what is adolescence? What agesdoes that even include? What
(02:43):
does it mean?
Crystal Kirgiss (02:44):
Yeah. Well, it's from an old Latin word,
adolescentia, and which justmeans youth if you were to
translate it straight up. So butit's been used, the word
adolescence, has been used for avery long time to refer to a
stage of life that is betweenchildhood and between adulthood.
I think for a long time, therewas sort of this popular idea
(03:06):
that went around that if youwent back far enough, you just
were a kid, and then all of asudden, one day you were an
adult, and there wasn't thistransitional stage. But this
transitional stage has beenrecognized and talked about and
described and defined for a longtime.
Camille Hall-Ortega (03:23):
Okay. I find that really helpful because
I think people would really wantus to pin down the age. Let's
just jump right into that. Whatare the findings that you've
seen in relation to these kindof through lines or patterns in
adolescence?
Crystal Kirgiss (03:39):
Yeah. Well, you know, research didn't look the
same back in the fourteen,fifteen, sixteen, seventeen,
eighteen hundreds as now. So youcan't look up lots of research.
You can just read concrete textsfrom that time and see what
people were saying. And thenotions that there was starting
to be a lot of emotionalupheaval, that appears over and
(04:01):
over again.
The tendency to sometimes makedecisions rashly without
thinking them through carefully.That description comes in over
and over again. The tendency topush back, challenge boundaries,
challenge authority. Thatdescription shows up over and
over again. The tendency tostart asking hard questions or
(04:25):
doubts about faith, that showsup over and over again.
So there were a lot of fears fora long time about the fact that
if the youth of the church orthe adolescents of the church
aren't embraced and solidifiedin their faith, there's not
gonna be a church in anothergeneration because they're the
generation that's up and coming.If the rising generation didn't
(04:47):
rise to the challenges of havinga rooted faith, then what was
gonna happen to the church?
Marcus Goodyear (04:53):
Well, and the culture, right? Because their
faith and church and culture,that was all bound up. So it was
almost a desire to see theculture perpetuate and to see
the culture have stability.
Crystal Kirgiss (05:04):
Sure. Sure. It was. I think there might be also
a myth that everybody wasinvolved with faith, and that's
not the case. But it was maybe alittle more woven into the day
to day lives of people than itis today. But yes, there were so
I think there were a lot offears about youth, teenagers.
Actually, the word teenagersisn't a new word either. There
(05:27):
are, no, there's, there aresermons and parenting books
going back many hundreds ofyears that talk about how now
they get into their teens inquotations, they might say, or
in parentheses, as we say, kindof like teens is a scare quote
word. They get into their teens,and now they now they don't
(05:47):
wanna do what you tell them todo, or they are pushing back on
school or on church attendanceor whatever it might be.
There was a lot of fear becauseteenagers could recite all the
ballads of Robin Hood, like allthe popular, narratives, but
they didn't know the Our Father,and they didn't know the creed.
Marcus Goodyear (06:09):
Oh, the evils of Robin Hood.
Crystal Kirgiss (06:11):
Yeah. Yeah. When when novels were a new
thing, they were afraid aboutnovels. When little Broadstreet
songs that they sold on thecorner for a penny were a new
thing, and they're they'redisgustingly dirty. They're very
awful. There was worries aboutthat. There was worries about
dancing. There was worries aboutall the same things that there
are worries about today.
Camille Hall-Ortega (06:32):
Wow. Okay. So I can imagine that these
characteristics playing out overtime lead to a lot of the things
looking very similar in a lot ofways. But I'd love to hear more
about how the times really canlead to something different.
Like our lives don't happen in avacuum.
(06:54):
I think we're living in a timeright now where technology makes
things seem to look reallydifferent than perhaps it would
be for folks going to the fairand buying German college.
Crystal Kirgiss (07:06):
Sure. A teenager growing up in 2025
looks very different in someways than a teenager growing up
in 1525. But I would add tothat, so does being an adult.
And I think sometimes we focusall the differences on
adolescents, and we forget thatit's impacting us as well. So
(07:30):
sometimes we feel like, we're wedon't change. Whoever we are as
the adult, we just stayconstant. But those kids, that
everything's changing. So arewe. So that's that's just an
important thing to keep in mindthat we we tend to isolate it or
point it all on them when it'sjust as much us.
Marcus Goodyear (07:51):
That's a really good point.
Camille Hall-Ortega (07:52):
Yeah. That's a huge point. I want us
to even unpack that more. Whatdoes that mean? What does that
look like? Can we boil it down abit?
Crystal Kirgiss (08:00):
I think if we could, we would have the answer
to so many questions.
Yes. Right.
Marcus Goodyear (08:04):
Yes. Alright. Let's do it. Alright. I want
those answers.
Crystal Kirgiss (08:07):
Yeah. This I don't have an answer, but this
would be one of the things I'vethought about in that regard.
Marcus Goodyear (08:14):
Sure.
Crystal Kirgiss (08:14):
One, some people's then immediate
responses.... Well, then I haveto figure out everything about
culture so that I can be moreaware of teenagers. And I would
say to that, you don't have toknow the lyrics to one single
new song or have watched onesingle new show or played one
(08:36):
single new game or whatever elsethere might be to understand
teenagers and adolescents if youjust spend time with them. It's
way more important to get toknow them than it is to get to
know culture. You can get reallysidetracked by that.
And the other thing would be youcould know everything there is
(08:57):
about Gen Z or Millennials ornow Gen Alpha, and it is not
going to make any differencein... let me back up. Knowing
everything about thosegenerations isn't going to help
you know those people unless youspend time with people of
different ages.
Marcus Goodyear (09:16):
It's a marketing demographic in so many
ways. You know? They're usinggenerational theory to sell
t-shirts and to sell movies andwhatever.
Crystal Kirgiss (09:24):
Very nice point, Marcus.
My kids, Camille's kids, areyounger than mine. Mine are 20
and 24. And so we just, Isuppose we're still in the
teenage years based on what yousaid earlier, but I feel like
we're coming out of it. And forme, I actually had very little
anxiety about needing todiscover the culture my family,
(09:48):
we took those tours of culturetogether. So my son became our
tour guide, my daughter becameour tour guide, and we just
discovered what they liked.
Marcus Goodyear (09:57):
And so there was some resistance to us
shadowing them. My son inparticular is very private, my
daughter as well. And so theywould say, Why are you asking
what we're watching? Why are youlooking over our shoulders when
we're on the computer? And therewas a degree of wanting to
protect them. But more thanthat, it was just, I'm
interested in what you'reinterested in.
Crystal Kirgiss (10:19):
Mhmm.
Marcus Goodyear (10:19):
And it's not more complicated than that.
Crystal Kirgiss (10:21):
You use the phrase cultural tour guide,
which is a brilliant that is alovely phrase to use.
Camille Hall-Ortega (10:27):
Yeah.
Crystal Kirgiss (10:28):
And I think inviting your kids to do that
for you could be a beautifulthing as long as you're ready
for what might be a pushbackthat I I'm of course, I'm not
gonna do that. You're the lastperson I would want to have
here. But that's a really lovelyimage, Marcus.
You should do something withthat. How to be how to invite
your teenager to be yourcultural tour guide, which
(10:52):
doesn't mean you're invitingthem to make all the decisions
or to be the head of the family.But I always find that when you
ask a student what they'reinterested in, you allow them to
be the expert in something.
Camille Hall-Ortega (11:08):
Yeah.
Crystal Kirgiss (11:08):
You can usually have a pretty good conversation.
Marcus Goodyear (11:10):
Mhmm. Mhmm.
Camille Hall-Ortega (11:11):
I love it. We've mentioned some of the
generations that are alive.Right? We've talked about Gen Z.
You talked about Gen Alpha.
I am a millennial. Marcus is GenX.
Marcus Goodyear (11:24):
Woo hoo. Gen X.
Camille Hall-Ortega (11:25):
Represent, we're representing multiple,
multiple generations here. Iknow that the youth that are in
adolescence right now or thegeneration that includes folks
that are in adolescence rightnow is Gen Z. Is that correct?
Crystal Kirgiss (11:43):
And in middle school, you've got Alphas as
well.
Camille Hall-Ortega (11:45):
Okay. Yeah. Some grammarian.
Crystal Kirgiss (11:47):
I even I hate that I just said that. Have
alphas as well.
Marcus Goodyear (11:51):
I know what you mean.
Crystal Kirgiss (11:52):
Because I, yeah. I just I don't know how
long we're gonna be able to dothis because I think the the
descriptions of generations tendto be centered around either big
cultural events or worldwideevents or technological events.
And at some point, those aregoing to shift too quickly for
us to keep making newgenerations. Even right now, Gen
(12:16):
Z, the gap that they embrace,the people on the high end of it
and the youngest end are reallyfar apart in what their
experiences might have been inculture. So I just wonder
generational theory is not it'sa fairly new thing.
You know, it didn't really startuntil the twentieth century. And
I wonder if it's gonna fade outafter a while because things are
simply changing too fast for usto define-
Camille Hall-Ortega (12:39):
Because of technology?
Crystal Kirgiss (12:40):
Because of how fast technology is changing.
Absolutely.
Camille Hall-Ortega (12:43):
We know boomers, they're a generation
defined by World War II. Knowthe silent generation. We know
the greatest generation. So weknow the things that sort of
defined those generations werenot about technology so much.
Crystal Kirgiss (12:57):
I wonder if even generational theory
developed because there were somany changes happening, we
wanted to put some parametersand definitions on it. Before
that, we were defining people bythe stage of life they were in.
You were a child. You were anadolescent. You were a young
adult. You were an adult. Youwere a senior adult or an
(13:19):
advanced adult. We keeping itwithin the lifespan. Now we're
defining it by other things,which I haven't thought about
this that much, but that's veryinteresting to me. It's like
we're taking it outside ofourselves.
Marcus Goodyear (13:31):
Well, and we're breaking our ability to connect
with the other generationsbecause historically, perhaps I
might have said I'm somebody inmy 50s, but now I say I'm a Gen
X'er, which means I'm able toconnect to the other people who
are Gen X, but I'm separatingmyself from the people who are
50 before me. And I'm separatingmyself from the people who are
gonna be 50 after me. It justmakes me wonder how useful are
(13:56):
these labels? I mean, they arethey really helping us do
anything more than just sellstuff?
Crystal Kirgiss (14:00):
I think if you're using it as a label- for
I work with teenagers.
Marcus Goodyear (14:04):
Right.
Crystal Kirgiss (14:05):
And so I work with Gen Z right now. But my
husband's been in youth work for35 years. He just says he works
with teenagers. He didn't at onetime say, I work with
millennials, and I work with GenX, and now I work with Gen Z. He
just says, I work with teenagersbecause that stays constant.
I don't know if we're gonna keepdefining generations or if at
(14:26):
some point we won't. We're veryjazzed about talking about
generations right now. It's avery hot conversation. I don't
know if we will be for muchlonger. I don't know, maybe.
Camille Hall-Ortega (14:36):
But I would say that I feel certain
important distinctions from GenZ and certainly from Gen Alpha.
And I feel really what feelslike important comradery with
Millennials. And I don't know ifthat is because I'm told to,
right? Society kind of hypes itup for me, but it does feel
(15:00):
like, oh my gosh, I can lookover to a Millennial and say,
NSYNC or Backstreet Boys. Andthere's no question, we both
have an answer to that, right?And maybe that feels silly, but
there's there is this connectionthat happens that does not
always happen if I'm asking mymom that or if I'm asking
someone from Gen X that.
Crystal Kirgiss (15:20):
Sure.
Camille Hall-Ortega (15:20):
It's not gonna be the same.
Crystal Kirgiss (15:21):
It could be because you're a Millennial or
it could be because you grew upin this year, which is kind of
connected. Or it could bebecause you're the age you are.
I mean, that could be because ofa lot of things. We do like to
have categories. Actually,that's a very medieval thing.
Like, the need to categorize andorganize is not a new thing. I
(15:42):
think the bigger question iswhat are we doing with that?
Camille Hall-Ortega (15:45):
Right. Right.
Crystal Kirgiss (15:46):
Is it serving us, or does it just fill a need
in us to kind of put a post itnote on everything and put it in
a file and contain it? Or doesit move us forward in some way?
And I certainly don't know theanswer to that.
Camille Hall-Ortega (16:01):
Yeah. I think these are big questions. I
can see how it can bedetrimental or shallow and not
useful. And I can also see howit could be, I don't know, this
thing of, I know thatmillennials share with me that
they can remember where theywere on 9/11. And I know that
the generations after me cannot.
They weren't born or they don'tremember. And I know that my
(16:25):
kids don't remember thepandemic. They are pandemic
babies, but they don't recall itand they won't recall it.
Crystal Kirgiss (16:32):
Sure. But is that the most important thing?
That's the one question is, Arewe, are we putting more
importance on things than weshould or on the wrong things?
Those are huge questions.
Camille Hall-Ortega (16:45):
And in the end, I would still say the
bigger call on our lives is toactually know people, not know
about generations
Marcus Goodyear (16:56):
Mhmm.
Crystal Kirgiss (16:56):
Or not know about a life stage, but to
actually know people, which isway harder.
Camille Hall-Ortega (17:02):
Really important stuff, really
important. Now I know, Crystal,you are working with Young Life
and you have this background inresearch in adolescence. I would
love to know, you've touched onit a bit, but I would love to
know first how your research onadolescence and your knowledge
of adolescence, how it informsyour work and how you see these
trends in adolescence play outin faith in general.
Crystal Kirgiss (17:26):
Okay. Wow. Big question. First of all, I don't
do a lot of contemporaryresearch in adolescence. We do
have some people who do that.But my research, if you will,
from my PhD was in ancientthings. And so part of that
happened because-
Marcus Goodyear (17:43):
Ancient means how far back?
Crystal Kirgiss (17:45):
I I went back into the a 900's, a little bit
when when people were first kindof defining, you know, eight
stages of life, they weren'tdoing generational theory like
today, but they were doingstages of life. And it was
usually divided into four or 10or 12. You know, they try and
(18:07):
connect it to something in thelarger universe, like the
seasons or the months or theplanets or whatever. But I still
find that very interesting. I'mjust getting home from
conference with some pastors
Camille Hall-Ortega (18:19):
Mhmm.
Crystal Kirgiss (18:20):
Where I talked about the history of youth over
time.
Camille Hall-Ortega (18:23):
Yeah.
Crystal Kirgiss (18:24):
For them to hear what pastors have been
saying for a long time, whatparenting manuals have been
saying for a long time. Once youonce your children hit this age,
this is what you might face.This is what you might
experience, and this is what youshould be ready for. Like,
talking about once you hit thisage, moms, you're gonna need to
(18:45):
start pouring into yourdaughters more. Their emotions,
you'll understand more. Theirinterests. Dads, you need to
start figuring out what yoursons seem to be interested in so
that you can direct them to thecorrect apprenticeship that's
going to match their interestsand their skills and abilities.
I mean, these are not newconversations.
So hearing what was said orreading about what was said in
(19:08):
parenting manuals for one isvery fascinating. And those have
been around for a very longtime, probably before printed
books. But as certainly as soonas they were printed books,
there were books for parents.
Marcus Goodyear (19:20):
People have asked me how I raised my kids.
And I have said that there'sthis Bible verse that says raise
them in the way they're bent andthey won't stray from it, Which
means to me to pay attention towhere they want to go. So in a
sense, I would follow theirlead. So when my son was
(19:43):
interested in video games, I waslike, great, let's build a
computer. And so I would try totake the things that were
interesting to them and-
Camille Hall-Ortega (19:52):
That's such a Marcus answer.
Marcus Goodyear (19:56):
You know, are we trying to-
Camille Hall-Ortega (19:57):
You want a video game? Make it.
Marcus Goodyear (19:59):
Yeah. Well, but he did. I mean, he was 12. He
was 11 or 12. And you can lookthese things up online. I mean,
it's hard, but it's not thathard. Anyone can do it.
Crystal Kirgiss (20:07):
Wow.
Marcus Goodyear (20:08):
And so we built a computer. And of course that
did wonders for his confidence.And my daughter, she wanted to
play violin. So it's like, okay,great. Let's get a, you know, we
just follow their lead. Shewanted to do mock trial. So we
follow that, we show up. And Ifeel like that is different than
what I imagine a lot of parentshear when they hear lead.
Crystal Kirgiss (20:29):
Yes.
Marcus Goodyear (20:32):
I'm imagining, I don't know that I've seen
this, I have seen it for some,but I imagine parents are
saying, I need to give my kidsthe prescription to follow so
that their life will be good. Ifeel-
Camille Hall-Ortega (20:46):
Or like God, right? We're Christian
parents also. So for us, mightbe hand them the guidebook that
we know is number one.
Not one for Barnes & Noble.
Marcus Goodyear (20:56):
Yeah.
Camille Hall-Ortega (20:59):
Sure.
Crystal Kirgiss (20:59):
Marcus, that what you just said is so
interesting because what youwere doing was you weren't
letting your kids go, this ishow I want you to parent me. You
were tapping into what they wereinterested in. You were tapping
into their interests, passions,and hobbies, and saying, there's
a there is a really goodconnection point for us right
(21:22):
there. But you weren't saying,why don't you tell me what kind
of hours you wanna keep and howyou want to spend all your free
time? Right? No. We want yourcurfew to be...
Marcus Goodyear (21:33):
Who would that? Who would do that?
Crystal Kirgiss (21:34):
Well, I will say there are parents today who
feel that they should be theirteenager's friend. That's their
best shot at any- I know.Following their lead is not
following them, nor is it I dothink there are some things that
(21:55):
we still dictate as parents ofteenagers. You are still the
parent, and and you are you haveevery right to dictate.
Sounds like a terrible word. Youhave every right to make
decisions for them and for yourfamily based on your role as a
parent. That's fine. So somepeople back off way too much.
(22:16):
Some people, press down way toomuch.
And I think there's a middlespace. A lot is changing in
adolescence. In some ways,they're dealing with identity
development. They're dealingwith figuring out how much
autonomy they have to make theirown decisions and be independent
people. And in that period oftime, we're hoping that their
(22:40):
faith cements itself.
And think about how ironic thatis. This is the stage of life
where they're like, I'm gonnafigure out who I am, and I'm
gonna make my own decisions. Andwe're saying there is a God who
his presence, his realness,defines your identity. And our
job is to completely surrenderourselves to him at a stage of
(23:04):
life where someone's going, I'mgonna make my own decisions and
decide who I am. In some ways,it feels like it should be a
total clash, which is why it'ssuch an important stage for life
or for faith to be real to them.
It's also easy for parents ofteenagers to simply tell them
what to believe or tell themwhat you believe, but not to
also share with them your faithexperiences. Like, this is how
(23:29):
I'm experiencing the Lord rightnow. This is what I'm praying
about. This is what's difficultfor me in my life of faith. They
need to hear what their parents'faith experiences are, not just
their faith framework for themto see that faith is a real
thing beyond just the exteriorof what's going on.
(23:51):
And I actually think that's oneof the hardest things to do as a
parent. I don't think I did itvery well. I wasn't even aware
of it at the time. But it's askill and a habit and a mindset
that I think is really importantfor Christian parents to have.
Camille Hall-Ortega (24:06):
Yeah. That's so good.
Marcus Goodyear (24:08):
I want to go back to this idea of how much
boundaries that parents givetheir kids and the idea of
balancing freedom and engagementand boundaries that really are
designed to protect our kids. Iwas very aware of those.
Although I will say one of thethings we decided to do was
(24:30):
never make decisions based onfear.
Crystal Kirgiss (24:33):
Oh, that's lovely.
Marcus Goodyear (24:34):
So this is a slight tangent, but I saw this
video, I don't know, fifteenyears ago about this guy who was
blind.
I think Camille's heard thisstory before. And his parents-
He's blind. He's a kid. And hisparents buy him a bike because
he wanted a bike. And he hadthis method of clicking so that
(24:55):
he could kind of get a sense ofecholocation of his environment.
And I thought to myself, yourkid is blind and you buy them a
bike.
I want to be that brave with mykids to follow their interests.
(25:17):
Still, you don't just send themoff down the mountain bike
trail, but to let them explore.And so thinking about that,
thinking about the balancebetween freedom and structure
and freedom and boundariesreminds me of this clip we've
queued up. I'd love to listen tothis with you from from
Laity Lodge and Allan Josephsonand and get your take on it.
Allan Josephson (25:39):
Tell me what I do right for a change. I want
you to understand that I have myown life to live. Balance with
that is do I have a guide?Freedom without structure is a
problem, and it's really linkedto that. So children need
regularity and structure,certain boundaries define
safety. There's been researchthat has shown when fences were
(26:01):
taken away from playgroundareas, kids were more insecure,
and when the fences were putback, they were able to play
with more freedom. They huddledin the center of the of the
playground without that. So soboundaries define safety, and
they also define freedom. Theycould only enjoy that freedom
unless there was structure, sothat there's panic with freedom
(26:21):
without structure. It's got tobe balanced.
Marcus Goodyear (26:25):
What do you think?
Crystal Kirgiss (26:27):
I think that's true for everybody, including
adults. When I listened to it, Ithought, isn't that true for all
of us?
Marcus Goodyear (26:37):
Yeah.
Crystal Kirgiss (26:39):
Can you imagine taking 10 kids and putting them
in a gym with a ball and twobaskets on the wall and say, you
have twenty minutes. Go. With nodefinition about what they're
doing or what the boundariesare, what the goal is, or what
(27:00):
the point is.
Marcus Goodyear (27:01):
Yeah. The rules make the game.
Crystal Kirgiss (27:03):
Every game has rules that give it life and
meaning and excitement and valueand purpose and identity and all
of those things. I thinkboundaries do that for all of us
at different stages of life. Thechallenge in adolescence is that
they are moving from a stage ofchildhood where we are really
(27:25):
defining all the boundaries andmaking many decisions for them.
And adulthood where they'regoing to have to do that all for
themselves or more so than now.And we're at this transition
stage where that is still a rolethat we play.
But we also have to allow themto learn how to make decisions
(27:46):
and learn how to even set someof their own boundaries that are
healthy for them. And if someonecould write the book that would
tell all of us or could havetold me when my kids were that
age how to do that, we wouldhave this whole thing figured
out. Right?
Camille Hall-Ortega (28:03):
We want folks to know just as this
episode comes out, that this isnot just an episode for parents.
Right?
Crystal Kirgiss (28:11):
Oh, yeah.
Camille Hall-Ortega (28:12):
That we talk a lot about being good
neighbors and being good to yourcommunity. What are some
takeaways that people who don'thave kids can can take from our
time together concerningadolescence?
Crystal Kirgiss (28:27):
Really, really great question, Camille. I have
a friend, Mark Ostreicher, whodoes a lot with teenagers, and
he has said this. I've heardother people say this. I've said
it. If you can shift fromthinking that adolescence is a
stage of life or people to besolved to these are people to
get to know and love. That mightbe enough right there.
Marcus Goodyear (28:50):
So simple.
Crystal Kirgiss (28:51):
Yeah. If you if you are a church attender, if
your church has a moment whenthey you greet somebody,
intentionally greet a teenager.They will go greet children or
their own age, but there's thestage of life that just gets
overlooked. At stores whereyou're shopping, there's a lot
(29:14):
of teenagers who are cashiers,and they almost always wear a
name tag. Thank them by name.Treat them like the beautiful,
lovely, God created person thatthey are. Even if they don't
reciprocate, most of them will.They're really very lovely
people once if you take the timeto get to know them.
Marcus Goodyear (29:34):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If you give respect, you
get it back.
Crystal Kirgiss (29:37):
Yeah. And I think being a good listener
would be another if you know ateenager and you ask them about
their life or ask them whatthey're interested in in a way
that's not doesn't come off asI'm here to fix things for you
or I'm here to help you. If youjust treat them like a human
being, I think you can have somereally lovely conversations. And
(30:01):
you then may be one of theadults. I knew this as a parent.
My kids didn't need just me andtheir dad. In fact...
Marcus Goodyear (30:11):
Mentors.
Crystal Kirgiss (30:12):
They needed lots of other people in their
life to see them and know them.
Marcus Goodyear (30:15):
Mhmm. Mhmm.
Crystal Kirgiss (30:16):
If you don't have teenagers of your own, you
might be one of the people who ateenager needs to help them
navigate this stage of life,feeling like they matter to
somebody, really matter, andthat they're really seen and
someone really cares about themand who they are.
Camille Hall-Ortega (30:33):
Well, that's great. I think that's
really a great place to end. Ithink you've given us a lot to
think about and a lot to hopefor, which we really appreciate.
Thank you, Crystal.
Crystal Kirgiss (30:42):
I think we should always be very hopeful.
Always.
Marcus Goodyear (30:44):
Yes.
Camille Hall-Ortega (30:45):
Yeah. Thank you so much for being with us.
Thank you for all of yourinsights. We're grateful.
Crystal Kirgiss (30:50):
Thanks for inviting me. It was a delight to
visit.
Camille Hall-Ortega (30:56):
The Echoes Podcast is written and produced
by Marcus Goodyear, RobStennett, and me, Camille
Hall-Ortega. It's edited by RobStennett and Kim Stone. Our
executive producers are PattonDodd and David Rogers. Special
thanks to our guest today,Doctor Crystal Kirgiss.
We recently featured Crystal inEchoes Magazine and you can read
the article online atechoesmagazine.org. While you're
(31:16):
there, consider subscribing.You'll receive a beautiful print
magazine each quarter, and it'sfree. You can find a link in our
show notes. The Echoes Podcastand Echoes Magazine are both
productions brought to you bythe H.E. Butt Foundation.
You can learn more about ourvision and mission at
hebfdn.org.
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