June 10, 2025 • 34 mins
What does it mean to create something beautiful—not despite our limitations, but because of them? We talk with bestselling author and artist Austin Kleon about creativity as resistance, the tension between process and product, and the courage to show our work. From crushed oyster shells to pink conchas, from ancient nun rhythms to the modern grind, this episode reminds us that creativity is not about abundance—it’s about attention. And it might just save our souls.
Our guest this week, Austin Kleon, is the New York Times bestselling author of Steal Like an Artist, Show Your Work, and Keep Going. Known for his accessible insights into the creative process, he writes a widely followed weekly newsletter and shares his own journey of making art with words and pictures.
Notes
- Steal Like an Artist, Keep Going, and Show Your Work by Austin Kleon
- The Gift by Lewis Hyde
- Makoto Fujimura at Laity Lodge
- Pink concha painting by Eva M. Marengo Sanchez
- Get a beautiful quarterly print magazine for free at echoesmagazine.org
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Marcus Goodyear (00:05):
I never had the 64 count crayon box. Just the
modest set of eight, red,orange, yellow, green, blue,
violet, brown, and black. I'dwatch the other kids open their
crayon castles, four rows ofcolors like silver and gold and
purple mountain's majesty. And Ialways felt like their lives
just must be more beautiful thanmine.
(00:27):
Maybe that's where it started.This belief that beauty comes
not from abundance, but fromattention. From limitation even.
Creativity isn't the freedom ofinfinite colors. It's the art of
working with what you have.
They say creativity means beingwilling to color outside the
lines, and I get that. Rules canbecome a form of self
censorship, but there's asubversive kind of power in
(00:49):
staying between the lines andstill importing beauty from the
outside. Because I still believein creativity, not just as an
expression, but as resistance,as resourcefulness. And I refuse
to believe that beauty requiresabundance. I think of poetry,
how a sonnet doesn't trap thepoet, it sharpens the poem.
(01:10):
How even a single blue crayonmoving in one direction on paper
can become the sea. I'm MarcusGoodyear from the H.E.Butt E
Foundation. This is The EchoesPodcast. Today, we welcome
Austin Kleon, New York Timesbestselling author of Steal Like
an Artist, Show Your Work, andKeep Going. And we're gonna talk
about creativity as an act ofpower and belief.
(01:32):
I'm here with my co-host,Camille Hall-Ortega. Austin,
welcome.
Camille Hall-Ortega (01:36):
We're so glad to have you.
Austin Kleon (01:37):
Thank you for having me.
Marcus Goodyear (01:38):
Let's dive right in. Tell us a little bit
about what you do and whatcreativity looks like for you.
Austin Kleon (01:44):
Oh my. Well, I usually tell people I, I'm a
writer who draws. I make bookswith pictures and art with
words. So I'm kind of a hybridbeast where the verbal and the
visual is kind of, you know,they're interwoven for me. As
far as creativity, now that'sit's a funny word.
I never really thought about itthat much until I had a book
(02:07):
that said creative on the cover.You know, I've always been
really interested in art andmaking art, but you know, as
part of my kind of journey as aperson who makes things is that
I have had to think about thatword creativity a lot. I think,
you know, for me, it's justtaking what's in front of you
(02:28):
and everybody else and turn itinto something new that we
haven't seen before.
Camille Hall-Ortega (02:32):
So good. One thing that I wondered about
is for folks who feel kind ofcreatively blocked, if you feel
like you're experiencing somesort of creative block or
writer's block or anything likethat.
Austin Kleon (02:43):
Yeah. I think that's a two fold approach
though. I think you have to, theinput and the output, you know,
you really have to be sure thatthe ratio is is correct. Like
something that, you know, wasreally interesting to me as a
young writer is I discoveredthat someone like Stephen King
(03:04):
will write for three hours inthe morning, and then he'll read
all afternoon.
That was really shocking to meas a young writer is that
someone with that prodigious ofan output would actually spend a
good deal of his day on thecouch reading. But if you think
about it, three hours is aboutthat's if you're cranking for
(03:25):
three hours and you do that daysa year, you got a novel.
Especially if you're someonelike King who seems to be able
to write with a kind of openthrottle, you know.
And so it's very important, Ithink, for people to figure out
what the ratio is, what theirproper ratio is. For me, you
(03:48):
know, I really only have aboutthree or four really creative
hours in me in the studio. Andthen the rest of the day needs
to be, you know, spent fillingup. But so I think it's twofold.
I think, you know, you need tofind inspiration. So, you know,
like Julia Cameron says, takeyourself on an artist date. I
actually think that really thematerial that most people need
(04:09):
to use the most is time. I thinktime is kind of the primary
material for creative work. Ithink time, space, and
materials, I don't think they'rein that order of hierarchy.
But time is really the thingthat the artist, I think, has to
work with. And one of the ways Ithink to get inspired is to put
(04:31):
inspiration on the calendar.
Camille Hall-Ortega (04:33):
Oh, wow.
Austin Kleon (04:34):
You know, is to, I'm gonna schedule this day, I'm
gonna go out, I'm gonna buy somenew art supplies, I'm gonna go
to the museum, I'm going towatch a movie, I'm gonna do this
thing. And then you scheduleanother time where you're going
to go into the studio and you'regonna do something with that
stuff.
Marcus Goodyear (04:49):
Yeah, that makes me think of William
Wordsworth. He said, "Poetry isemotion recollected in
tranquility." So you have to goout and experience it and then
the poetry comes when yourecollect on the experience of
inspiration that you had.
Austin Kleon (05:04):
So influence is actually one of the great leaps
that creative people can make isthey make influence active.
You're actively seekinginfluence. You're actively
seeking inspiration. So it's nota passive thing. You're not just
like waiting for the call.You're showing up at the studio
and it's like there were thesethere were these nuns once I
(05:26):
forget which which none it was.I was reading this article about
nuns one time and they said, youknow, we don't pray because we
feel like praying. We praybecause the bell rings. We pray
because the bell rings.
And I always felt like, youknow, the the spiritual devotion
of of having an art practices.You know, we don't paint because
(05:48):
we feel like it. We paintbecause it's time to paint, you
know, and whatever inspirationthere is is gonna find us
working.
Marcus Goodyear (05:56):
I love the idea of time as a gift, which I think
is one of the things I heard yousaying. As opposed to time as
money, which is something else Isometimes hear. That takes me
back to Lewis Hyde and this thisidea of viewing what we do as a
gift both to ourselves and toothers. And most of our
(06:18):
listeners probably have notheard The Gift.
So I'm curious if you could justlike summarize for you what what
does that work mean to you? Andthen maybe we can hear a little
clip of of it.
Austin Kleon (06:30):
Well, The Gift's a weird book. I mean, it's it's
it's hugely influential onpeople. It's one of those books
when people read them, it likereally gets you if you can get
through it. The gift was a veryimportant thing to read as a as
a young artist for me because itsimply makes the case that there
is the world of there is themarket economy and there is the
(06:53):
gift economy.
You can make art without theeconomics, but you can't make
art without the gift. If youthink of the gift economy and
the market economy as twocircles and then in the middle
is this little sliver of Venndiagram, that's where a lot of
really great art exists. Butit's very tricky once those
(07:14):
worlds are great alone, but whenyou get them together, things
get very tricky. And everycreative person knows this.
There's a great, great showabout this right now called The
Studio that is Seth Rogen showabout being a Hollywood
Producer.
Marcus Goodyear (07:31):
Oh, okay.
Austin Kleon (07:32):
And one of the things that Seth Rogen says is
that on the outside, you'relooking at Hollywood and you're
thinking, how do all thesecrappy movies get made? When you
work inside Hollywood, you'reamazed that any good movie gets
made because-
Marcus Goodyear (07:44):
Yes. I've heard that too.
Austin Kleon (07:46):
-it's a system in which commerce rules the day.
Marcus Goodyear (07:50):
Yeah. Yeah. We have found an audio clip from
Laity Lodge where somebody isalso talking about The Gift. And
this is Makoto Fujimura. He is aJapanese paint, Japanese
American painter and he works inNihonga, which is a Japanese
style of painting that he saysis slow art.
And it's basically made wherethey crush minerals. They crush
(08:15):
natural things and use it as thecolor. And so if the color gold
is on the painting, then it isgold. Like actual gold, crushed
gold, crushed oyster shell,crushed mica, things like that.
It's the only painting I've everseen that absolutely is not
captured unless you're lookingat it in person.
It's sort of hard to describeand it's very very beautiful.
(08:38):
And we had the opportunity ofbringing him to Laity Lodge in
2009. Laity Lodge is the adultretreat center sponsored by the
H.E.Butt Foundation. And he wastalking to artists and writers
about how he understands thevalue of art. So here is Makoto
Fujimura.
Makoto Fujimura (08:58):
And I was thinking about this, what good
is this? Does a capital isticmarket system look at what I do
and put value on it? And I wasreading this book called The
Gift by a guy named Lewis Hyde,he's a poet. One, you know, is,
I agree with Hyde here that workof art is a gift. Second, that
(09:24):
it needs to be received as agift. And that in itself is a
gift. That transaction thattakes place is not commoditized,
you know, commercialized,celebrity driven thing that we
what we have now come to callcontemporary art. There is
(09:45):
something intrinsic about theart process that is needed to
sustain you and I creating work.Apart from the marketplace, the
work of art can exist on its ownwithout the marketplace. But
civilization cannot. Without thegift of art, we lose our soul.
Austin Kleon (10:13):
Another way to think about, you know, what what
he's talking about is processversus product.
Marcus Goodyear (10:19):
Yes.
Austin Kleon (10:20):
When we think about art, I mean, lot of people
think about art as the finishedwork. It's the thing up on the
wall. That is the product. Butthen there's the process of art.
There's everything that goesinto the artist's life.
There's the walk they take inthe morning. There's the
preparation of the materials.There's the inspiration. There
(10:43):
is the actual work that is doneover time to make the thing. And
I think that people who reallylove and understand art know
that they can feel that process,whether you really, you know,
you can feel what has gone intoa real work of art.
(11:04):
And I think we're in a momentright now where a lot of people
only understand the product ofart. And I think a lot of the,
you know, the chitchat about AIright now,
Camille Hall-Ortega (11:20):
You're reading our minds.
Austin Kleon (11:22):
These these are people who who really believe in
the product of art, and theydon't understand the process of
art. I mean, the entire worldright now is run by people who
don't know anything about art.Pretty much every tech person
has no idea what is really Idon't think there's an art lover
(11:43):
in the batch, really. Theycertainly don't they're
certainly not interested in interms of, well, won't
necessarily go there, but Ithink that's what people really
miss the point with AI work isthat there's no gift there.
There's no struggle. There's nolimitations, there's no, it's
(12:04):
just, it's all about product.Give me this thing.
Camille Hall-Ortega (12:07):
Yeah. It's prompting, you know? And I think
that people can tell that. Sothe artist is dealing with a
bunch of things. I think a lotof artists right now are really
upset. They think that they'restruggling with the technology
problem. A lot of what we'redealing with is an audience
problem. You simply don't havethe audience who's ready to
(12:29):
receive.
Marcus Goodyear (12:30):
If the audience hears poems from ChatGPT and
thinks they're good, that'sbecause they don't know how to
receive-
Camille Hall-Ortega (12:36):
There's all sort of evaluation issue with
audience. Right? That they don'tthey don't know what
Austin Kleon (12:41):
You know, and I'm not trying to be snobby. I'm
just saying you have adisappearing writers, for
example. There are you know, whoreads anymore? The problem isn't
that there's nothing to saynecessarily. The problem or that
chat GPT is gonna replace us oranything.
The problem is where is theaudience? Where is the audience
(13:03):
that is hungry for the human forthis kind of work? And so I
think part of the artist neverwants to think about the
audience. You know, they alwayswanna think about their work and
their process and this and that.But part of the great work of,
you know, making things in thisworld is finding people to
(13:24):
receive them and finding theright people to receive it.
Camille Hall-Ortega (13:27):
Austin, you're reading our minds because
we were very, very excited tohear what your thoughts are
about AI and creativity. But I'mloving what you're also saying
about product versus process.And I'm actually thinking about
the connection between thesethings. When you spoke about the
importance of process and sortof art as doing, not just as
(13:49):
product, It made me think ofeven the art that we have where
I am in in our San Antoniooffice, our sunset office. We
have many beautiful paintings,but we have a beautiful painting
from an artist.
Well we'll link her in our shownotes. But she did a beautiful
painting for us of a pinkconcha, which for for those that
aren't familiar is a Mexicanpastry dessert, essentially.
Austin Kleon (14:11):
Delicious.
Camille Hall-Ortega (14:12):
That are they're very delicious. And she
does these very realisticpaintings of things like concha,
conchas and other things thatreally represent her culture
that also represent culture inSan Antonio. And the piece is
stunning. But what was evenperhaps more stunning was her
(14:34):
discussing her process.
And so she spoke about going andbuying real conchas from
Panaderias and looking at eachone and deciding what color pink
this concha that she waspainting was going to include,
and then the process of creatingthe pinks that were going to be
(14:56):
included in the concha that shewas going to paint. And it was
just mind blowing to hear aboutthe process. And I think what's
important here is that you don'tget that with AI. Not going to
happen with AI. Can you justtalk about kind of this
intersection of product versusprocess and problems with AI?
Austin Kleon (15:20):
Well, I wrote a whole book about it. This is
what my book, this is what mybook, Show Your Work, is about.
Yeah. Yeah. Because one of thethings that I realized right
away is that that book,actually, now that we're talking
about it comes directly out ofthe tension that Lewis Hyde
talks about in the gift is thatyou have this gift to this
(15:42):
process, this thing that youlove to do, and you're trying to
make it exist, you're trying tothrive in this market driven
world.
In the old days, whencommunication was different and
the gatekeeping was differentand the world was different, you
weren't supposed to ever showanyone your process. That's how
(16:05):
the sausage is made, so tospeak.
Camille Hall-Ortega (16:07):
Yeah.
Austin Kleon (16:09):
But I really grew up admiring people like, I don't
know, I was you know, my momused to be a home ec teacher, so
I was always really interestedin people like Martha Stewart or
Bob Ross. These people who sortof like gave away their secrets
and kind of demystified theprocess. And so I was kind of
always inspired by that, but Ialso noticed as a young artist
(16:30):
that people were able to buildan audience for their work, not
just through their own work, butthe way they talked about their
work. Yes. And so many of thethings that artists are told,
like, you never show people howthe sausage is made.
The work should speak foritself. Mhmm. Someone always
speaks for the work. That's howart kind of works, actually.
(16:52):
That's how that world works.
And so what I was trying tofigure out with that book is
people would come to me and theymost artists hate self
promotion. They hate marketing.After Steal Like an Artist came
out, people would come up to meand then say, how did you do
this? How how did you go frombeing unknown and not even
(17:14):
really having work of your ownthat was that, you know, to to
where you are now?
And I was like, can I write abook about that? And that's what
Show Your Work was about becausewhat I saw was that all artists
really care about is theirprocess. What if there was a way
that they could share theirprocess while they were working
(17:34):
that could build an audience forwhat they do? And when they had
something ready for thataudience, that audience would
kind of be primed for it. Theywould be ready to receive it.
Marcus Goodyear (17:45):
Yeah, this is what you do, right? I mean, is
in some way feels like this isyour brand.
Austin Kleon (17:51):
So yeah, I practice what I preach here.
Like, yes. Yeah, it comes rightout of my experience.
Marcus Goodyear (17:57):
Right and the way you preach it makes it sound
easy. I have tried this. It'sbeen many years because I
essentially retreated and youknow, I wasn't producing the
kinds of content you are I don'twant delusional or anything but
I had a blog, had variousdifferent ways to kind of grow
(18:19):
my audience and was on track todo that And I found that as a
person I was changing and that Ilost the ability to decide how I
could be vulnerable and Iactually did not want to be
vulnerable about kind of theways in which I was beginning to
(18:41):
think about the world and felthonestly unsafe to share some of
those things with the audiencethat I had built. So how do you
be transparent about yourprocess and be vulnerable
essentially about who you are asan artist without, you know,
opening yourself up to harm?
Or maybe you just do and you'resome kind of super courageous
(19:03):
person that I am not.
Austin Kleon (19:05):
No. I'm not courageous. I'm cowardly. That's
very important to know about me.I am very cautious and cowardly.
So I hear what you're saying.The one thing that I think the
mistake of show your work isthis idea that was all about
authenticity and all abouttransparency and putting a
(19:27):
webcam up in your studio andbeing vulnerable twenty four
seven. I actually thought of itmore as I mean, I have a real
marketing part of me. You know,I'm driven by opposites. I I I
find that the tension I I thinkthe tension in the creative
life, you know, we're in aculture right now.
It's like, oh, tension bad.Like, oh, man. I don't wanna be
(19:50):
tense. Like, oh, you gotta,like, loosen up. But I find that
tension is this very importantthing for creative work is that
in the way I describe it topeople is like a guitar string.
Guitar string is is slungbetween two opposites, two
poles. And if you don't ratchetup the tension on a guitar
(20:12):
string, if you would loosen thetension totally, it just buzzes
and there's no music, just makesnoise. If you ratchet it too
tight, it snaps. And and so itis with our spirit. Our spirit
needs just the right tension.
There needs to be just the righttension and work to create
energy, you need to be able to,like, tap into that tension for
(20:33):
the music to happen. But for me,that tension is that marketing,
wanting the work out in theworld but wanting to do really
good work and be the art the theartist in the market. Right?
Yeah. But to go back to yourinitial question, my thing is
that you control what you share.
You are in control of what youshare. When you stick a webcam
(20:56):
up in your studio, that willshut you down because you're
being observed. So my feelingwas always the tension is to try
to proceed as if you're notgoing to share things and then
to later pick up these littlebits and pieces and say, oh,
here are things that I canshare. Right? And I do think
(21:19):
that in some ways, it'sworthwhile to, like, you'll
notice that, like, I don'tactually share stuff while I'm
working on a book.
You know, I I I'm too in theheadspace of it's too raw. It's
too I'm too vulnerable. I can'tshare things, you know, from a
book. But what I can do is do,like, a piece about, here's
(21:41):
what's helping me write thisweek, you know, and talk about,
I don't know, writing books orsomething. You know what I mean?
Like, there's always and and oneof the ways that I tell people,
so what I so my great hustle isis that I have this newsletter
that I do every week on Fridaythat that people that in some
(22:02):
ways is kind of what I'm knownfor. You know, I'm known for the
books, and then the newsletteris kind of the thing that people
really interact with and has areally big audience.
Marcus Goodyear (22:11):
This is the freebie newsletter on Substack.
Austin Kleon (22:13):
The freebie newsletter that's been going on
way before Substack and will begoing on way after Substack.
Yeah. Just so I can say that outloud because I I like Substack
as a platform right now, but Idon't trust it. And they know
that and I've told them that,you know?
But to me, the newsletter issomething that I've been doing
for about a dozen years now. Andit's a list of 10 things I think
(22:37):
are worth sharing every Friday.Yeah. And, the great thing that
I do in that newsletter is everyweek I give you this stuff that
I think is really interesting.And then when I have something
to sell to you, it goes right upat the top of the list. So every
week I'm building a relationshipwith this audience. I'm giving
(23:00):
them great things. I'm trying tobe as generous as I can. I'm
trying to point out as much as Ican.
I'm trying to like give peopleas much good stuff. And then the
minute I have something to sellthem, that's the good stuff.
Here's what I made for you. Youcan buy it here. So that is my
great work of like showing mywork is that every Friday you
(23:20):
get this kind of peek at what'smaking me excited what's going
into my work.
And that's part of the process,and I'm showing you that stuff
while I'm busy cooking upwhatever I got going, you know,
on my own stuff. And then whenit's time to blow out my own
stuff, you're gonna hear aboutit because I've got your email.
(23:41):
And so that's the dance between,you know, that's the dance
between the gift and the that'sthe gift. And that and and and
the layers of the newsletterhave changed now because we have
a paid tier now.
I say we as if it's someoneother than me and May, my wife,
doing this thing. But, the ideawith the paid tier was, okay.
(24:03):
You wanna get a little bitcloser to the process. You want
to hear from me twice a week.You wanna get writing that might
end up in a book someday, butyou want to get it right now
when it's raw and new.
Okay, well, pay $50 a year andyou get that connection and
you're able to talk back at mein the comments and stuff. So,
you know, it's kind of that, youknow, Marcus, I really hear what
(24:26):
you're saying because it it is,you know, in some ways, I'm
selling access to me. You know?I mean, there is a sense that
the the Tuesday tier and by theway, I am blessed with the most
I have the kindest, nicestaudience. This has always been
true.
(24:46):
The comment section of the paidnewsletter is like standing in
line at one of my book signings.Just the nicest people. I don't
know what the one thing I'll sayabout the work is a lot of jerks
don't show up. Know, jerks justdon't show up. And so, but I do
think that these days, if youhave a kind of walled garden,
(25:08):
you know, everybody, you know,because people are like, well,
why don't you let us comment ifwe are not paying people?
And I'm like, well, one of thethings that happens when you pay
into something and you buy intoit is that you really want to
keep it nice. You have a senseof ownership over it.
Marcus Goodyear (25:21):
Yes.
Austin Kleon (25:22):
Right? And so the comment section in our Tuesday
newsletter and even in theFriday because only paid people
are able to comment on theFriday newsletter. So sometimes
the Friday newsletter is just asinteresting. But again, this is
why our world is so strange. Themarket, again, if we think about
that gift economy and the marketeconomy, putting up a market
(25:44):
paywall saying, no, you gottapay to get in here, It actually
creates a space in which giftthings can enter.
Marcus Goodyear (25:54):
That's right. I really resist product in my work
maybe because I have product inmy day to day work and so my
creative work, try to keep, puresounds like a judgment on the
work I do to get paid, which I'mvery grateful for the H. Bett
Foundation. I love working here.But when I write poetry or when
(26:14):
I do plays, I have no morefavorite art form than live
theater, which is you can'treplace live theater with AI, I
don't think. Don't think thatthat's actually possible.
Austin Kleon (26:25):
No.
Marcus Goodyear (26:25):
But with poetry, when I pulled back from
a very early and clumsy attemptto build a brand, I decided to
just write poetry for friends,for myself and never share and
never submit. And it's been tenyears since I started doing that
and I'm beginning to wonder atsome point do I come out of that
(26:46):
but it's it's very freeing.
Austin Kleon (26:50):
Well, you're in great company. I mean, Emily
Dickenson.
Marcus Goodyear (26:53):
Well, yeah, I don't wanna be delusional, but I
mean And she's great.
Austin Kleon (26:58):
But pretty awesome. The I the thing I love
about Emily Dickinson though islike she's writing poems on the
back of envelopes that peoplehave sent her. And she's
including poems and, like,letters she's sending. There's a
get talk about the gift. I mean,like, one of the things I write
about and keep going is that ifyou're feeling burnt out, you
(27:20):
know, one of the things I hateabout this culture is that the
minute you show any proficiencyfor anything, well, you know,
oh, this fried chicken. Oh, youcan fry chicken. You know what?
What comes next? You could havea food trailer.
Camille Hall-Ortega (27:35):
You could have it. Yeah. You should sell.
Austin Kleon (27:37):
It's the first thing we say. It's the it's the
major compliment we give to talkabout. You should take that
thing that you love to do thatI'm loving right now. You should
ruin it by making it your job.That's exactly what you should
do.
Right? And so make money. Youknow?
Marcus Goodyear (27:51):
Yes. Stay an amateur.
Austin Kleon (27:52):
Yeah. I mean, that's one of the first things I
tell people is like, if you haveturned your hobby into your job,
which a lot of the people thatI've talked to have, guess what?
You gotta get a new hobby. And alot of artists, you know, that
some whatever they're doing thatthey were loving, you know, and
when you turn it into your job,you need something else that's
(28:12):
outside of the market. You needsomething that's pure gift.
Camille Hall-Ortega (28:15):
A lot of what you're saying, it really
sounds like there's a lot offreedom and just kind of letting
go in your art. Just allowingyourself not to have to put so
many expectations on where isthis going? What am I gonna do
with this? Can I make money offof this? Am I gonna eat off of
this?
And, of course, as you'vediscussed, it doesn't always
(28:37):
feel like that's somethingthat's easy to do for a number
of reasons. But there's a beautyin this sort of letting go of
those expectations and of thosekind of multilayered need from
the art.
Austin Kleon (28:53):
Yeah, I mean, I think that our you know, a hero
of mine is Brian Eno, and one ofthe tensions that he talks about
culturally is this idea ofcontrol and surrender. Mhmm. An
artist is someone who hascontrol and surrender in a
unique tension because you'resort of in control and you're
(29:13):
sort of not. Like you're givingyourself over to an experience
and surrender is a big part ofit. You know, it's again, it's a
matter of spirit, not oftechnique necessarily.
And the other thing that I wroteabout this week is if you don't
show up for yourself and yourown creative work, you can't
(29:35):
show up for the world. A lot ofthe creative people I know
there's a lady I know named BethPickens, who's a who's a art
coach. And she said this thingthat just, like, drilled right
to my core. She said, artistsand creative people are people
artists in particular. Shetalked because her whole thing
is artists.
(29:56):
Artists are people who aredriven to make creative work.
And when they don't make it,their quality of life suffers.
They suffer. And so it's a lotof what I do right now is just
trying to be the thing I wannasee last. And so when you're
kind of, like, in the currentsof the moment, like with the AI
(30:18):
stuff, I'm trying to keep anopen mind about it.
I'm trying to, you know, just,okay, well, we'll see what
happens. But there's also a deeppart of me that believes so much
in the struggle of the brainwants to do something, but the
hand wants to do something else.And the hand turns out to be
smarter than the brain. And thehand tells the brain something
(30:41):
that the brain didn't know aboutitself. And it's this two way
street of, you know, idea andexecution and brain and hand and
spirit and body, you know?
Marcus Goodyear (30:54):
Yes.
Austin Kleon (30:54):
And I know that that's where the magic of the
stuff comes out. And I just feelreally bad for a generation that
might not experience that. Butthen I think to myself, as long
as you do it and you celebrateit, you're helping it continue.
Camille Hall-Ortega (31:13):
That's right.
Marcus Goodyear (31:14):
The next generation is still gonna have
bodies.
Austin Kleon (31:17):
Yeah. Right? They're still gonna have hands.
It's gonna fall apart on you andit's gonna, you know, you're
gonna have to wrestle with it. Ithink I'm very interested in, I
mean, that's a whole differentsubject, but I collect stories
of people whose physicalshortcomings or differences led
(31:39):
to some signature work.
So I think of, I'm the parent oftwo people who stutter. And
there are a lot of people whostutter turn into writers
because they wanna write the waythey wish they could talk. But
there's even more interestingthings like that. Then, like,
Art Spiegelman, the cartoonisthas amblyopia, I think is how
(32:00):
you say it, but he has onefunctioning eye. Oh, When you
have one functioning eye, itflattens the world.
You don't have depth perception.Well, in a certain con if you're
playing baseball, that's notgonna you're not gonna hit much.
Like, you're not gonna catchmany balls when you don't have
depth perception. But if youwanna be a cartoonist, it's like
(32:21):
a superpower because the world'sflat for you. Right?
Tommy Iommi, the guitar playerfor Black Sabbath, lost two
fingers in a two fingertips inan industrial accent. He fitted
his fingers with these leathercaps, and he detuned his guitar
so that he could, you know, movethe strings better. Well, Black
(32:43):
Sabbath, a lot of the sound ofthat metal band comes from those
detuned sludgy guitars. So Mhmm.Regina Spector, songwriter,
wanted to be a classicalpianist.
They said, your hands are toosmall. You're never going to be
a classical pianist. Okay, well,I'll write pop songs then or,
you know, I'll be a songwriter.So the things that make us
(33:04):
different are in the rightcontext or superpowers. You
know, Saul Steinberg said thething that we respond to in any
work of art is the struggle ofthe artist against his or her
limitations.
Marcus Goodyear (33:20):
I love that. I love that. It gives me hope
because creativity is is findinga way. Yeah. It's, you know,
it's it's gonna come through.
Yep.
Camille Hall-Ortega (33:29):
Awesome.
Austin, this has been amazing.
Yes. Thank you somuch. I had fun.
We did too.
Marcus Goodyear (33:36):
We did too.
Austin Kleon (33:36):
So nice to talk to you.
Camille Hall-Ortega (33:38):
Too much of what you do is encourage
artists, and so thank you forall of the encouragement today.
I am inspired. Truly.
Austin Kleon (33:45):
Yes. Oh, I'm glad.
Marcus Goodyear (33:46):
Yes. Thank you so much. The Echoes podcast is
written and produced by CamilleHall-Ortega, Rob Stennett, and
me, Marcus Goodyear. It's editedby Rob Stennett and Kim Stone.
Our executive producers arePatton Dodd and David Rogers.
Special thanks to our guesttoday, Austin Kleon. I don't
know if he subscribes to EchoesMagazine or not, but he should,
(34:07):
and you can too because it'sfree. Go to echosmagazine.org to
subscribe. You'll receive abeautiful print magazine each
quarter, and, did we mentionthat it's free? You can find a
link in our show notes.
The Echoes Podcast and EchoesMagazine are both productions
brought to you by theH.E.Butt Foundation.
Camille Hall-Ortega (34:23):
Learn more about our vision and mission at
hebfdn.org.
I never had the 64 count crayon box. Just the
modest set of eight, red,orange, yellow, green, blue,
violet, brown, and black. I'dwatch the other kids open their
crayon castles, four rows ofcolors like silver and gold and
purple mountain's majesty. And Ialways felt like their lives
just must be more beautiful thanmine.
(00:27):
Maybe that's where it started.This belief that beauty comes
not from abundance, but fromattention. From limitation even.
Creativity isn't the freedom ofinfinite colors. It's the art of
working with what you have.
They say creativity means beingwilling to color outside the
lines, and I get that. Rules canbecome a form of self
censorship, but there's asubversive kind of power in
(00:49):
staying between the lines andstill importing beauty from the
outside. Because I still believein creativity, not just as an
expression, but as resistance,as resourcefulness. And I refuse
to believe that beauty requiresabundance. I think of poetry,
how a sonnet doesn't trap thepoet, it sharpens the poem.
(01:10):
How even a single blue crayonmoving in one direction on paper
can become the sea. I'm MarcusGoodyear from the H.E.Butt E
Foundation. This is The EchoesPodcast. Today, we welcome
Austin Kleon, New York Timesbestselling author of Steal Like
an Artist, Show Your Work, andKeep Going. And we're gonna talk
about creativity as an act ofpower and belief.
(01:32):
I'm here with my co-host,Camille Hall-Ortega. Austin,
welcome.
Camille Hall-Ortega (01:36):
We're so glad to have you.
Austin Kleon (01:37):
Thank you for having me.
Marcus Goodyear (01:38):
Let's dive right in. Tell us a little bit
about what you do and whatcreativity looks like for you.
Austin Kleon (01:44):
Oh my. Well, I usually tell people I, I'm a
writer who draws. I make bookswith pictures and art with
words. So I'm kind of a hybridbeast where the verbal and the
visual is kind of, you know,they're interwoven for me. As
far as creativity, now that'sit's a funny word.
I never really thought about itthat much until I had a book
(02:07):
that said creative on the cover.You know, I've always been
really interested in art andmaking art, but you know, as
part of my kind of journey as aperson who makes things is that
I have had to think about thatword creativity a lot. I think,
you know, for me, it's justtaking what's in front of you
(02:28):
and everybody else and turn itinto something new that we
haven't seen before.
Camille Hall-Ortega (02:32):
So good. One thing that I wondered about
is for folks who feel kind ofcreatively blocked, if you feel
like you're experiencing somesort of creative block or
writer's block or anything likethat.
Austin Kleon (02:43):
Yeah. I think that's a two fold approach
though. I think you have to, theinput and the output, you know,
you really have to be sure thatthe ratio is is correct. Like
something that, you know, wasreally interesting to me as a
young writer is I discoveredthat someone like Stephen King
(03:04):
will write for three hours inthe morning, and then he'll read
all afternoon.
That was really shocking to meas a young writer is that
someone with that prodigious ofan output would actually spend a
good deal of his day on thecouch reading. But if you think
about it, three hours is aboutthat's if you're cranking for
(03:25):
three hours and you do that daysa year, you got a novel.
Especially if you're someonelike King who seems to be able
to write with a kind of openthrottle, you know.
And so it's very important, Ithink, for people to figure out
what the ratio is, what theirproper ratio is. For me, you
(03:48):
know, I really only have aboutthree or four really creative
hours in me in the studio. Andthen the rest of the day needs
to be, you know, spent fillingup. But so I think it's twofold.
I think, you know, you need tofind inspiration. So, you know,
like Julia Cameron says, takeyourself on an artist date. I
actually think that really thematerial that most people need
(04:09):
to use the most is time. I thinktime is kind of the primary
material for creative work. Ithink time, space, and
materials, I don't think they'rein that order of hierarchy.
But time is really the thingthat the artist, I think, has to
work with. And one of the ways Ithink to get inspired is to put
(04:31):
inspiration on the calendar.
Camille Hall-Ortega (04:33):
Oh, wow.
Austin Kleon (04:34):
You know, is to, I'm gonna schedule this day, I'm
gonna go out, I'm gonna buy somenew art supplies, I'm gonna go
to the museum, I'm going towatch a movie, I'm gonna do this
thing. And then you scheduleanother time where you're going
to go into the studio and you'regonna do something with that
stuff.
Marcus Goodyear (04:49):
Yeah, that makes me think of William
Wordsworth. He said, "Poetry isemotion recollected in
tranquility." So you have to goout and experience it and then
the poetry comes when yourecollect on the experience of
inspiration that you had.
Austin Kleon (05:04):
So influence is actually one of the great leaps
that creative people can make isthey make influence active.
You're actively seekinginfluence. You're actively
seeking inspiration. So it's nota passive thing. You're not just
like waiting for the call.You're showing up at the studio
and it's like there were thesethere were these nuns once I
(05:26):
forget which which none it was.I was reading this article about
nuns one time and they said, youknow, we don't pray because we
feel like praying. We praybecause the bell rings. We pray
because the bell rings.
And I always felt like, youknow, the the spiritual devotion
of of having an art practices.You know, we don't paint because
(05:48):
we feel like it. We paintbecause it's time to paint, you
know, and whatever inspirationthere is is gonna find us
working.
Marcus Goodyear (05:56):
I love the idea of time as a gift, which I think
is one of the things I heard yousaying. As opposed to time as
money, which is something else Isometimes hear. That takes me
back to Lewis Hyde and this thisidea of viewing what we do as a
gift both to ourselves and toothers. And most of our
(06:18):
listeners probably have notheard The Gift.
So I'm curious if you could justlike summarize for you what what
does that work mean to you? Andthen maybe we can hear a little
clip of of it.
Austin Kleon (06:30):
Well, The Gift's a weird book. I mean, it's it's
it's hugely influential onpeople. It's one of those books
when people read them, it likereally gets you if you can get
through it. The gift was a veryimportant thing to read as a as
a young artist for me because itsimply makes the case that there
is the world of there is themarket economy and there is the
(06:53):
gift economy.
You can make art without theeconomics, but you can't make
art without the gift. If youthink of the gift economy and
the market economy as twocircles and then in the middle
is this little sliver of Venndiagram, that's where a lot of
really great art exists. Butit's very tricky once those
(07:14):
worlds are great alone, but whenyou get them together, things
get very tricky. And everycreative person knows this.
There's a great, great showabout this right now called The
Studio that is Seth Rogen showabout being a Hollywood
Producer.
Marcus Goodyear (07:31):
Oh, okay.
Austin Kleon (07:32):
And one of the things that Seth Rogen says is
that on the outside, you'relooking at Hollywood and you're
thinking, how do all thesecrappy movies get made? When you
work inside Hollywood, you'reamazed that any good movie gets
made because-
Marcus Goodyear (07:44):
Yes. I've heard that too.
Austin Kleon (07:46):
-it's a system in which commerce rules the day.
Marcus Goodyear (07:50):
Yeah. Yeah. We have found an audio clip from
Laity Lodge where somebody isalso talking about The Gift. And
this is Makoto Fujimura. He is aJapanese paint, Japanese
American painter and he works inNihonga, which is a Japanese
style of painting that he saysis slow art.
And it's basically made wherethey crush minerals. They crush
(08:15):
natural things and use it as thecolor. And so if the color gold
is on the painting, then it isgold. Like actual gold, crushed
gold, crushed oyster shell,crushed mica, things like that.
It's the only painting I've everseen that absolutely is not
captured unless you're lookingat it in person.
It's sort of hard to describeand it's very very beautiful.
(08:38):
And we had the opportunity ofbringing him to Laity Lodge in
2009. Laity Lodge is the adultretreat center sponsored by the
H.E.Butt Foundation. And he wastalking to artists and writers
about how he understands thevalue of art. So here is Makoto
Fujimura.
Makoto Fujimura (08:58):
And I was thinking about this, what good
is this? Does a capital isticmarket system look at what I do
and put value on it? And I wasreading this book called The
Gift by a guy named Lewis Hyde,he's a poet. One, you know, is,
I agree with Hyde here that workof art is a gift. Second, that
(09:24):
it needs to be received as agift. And that in itself is a
gift. That transaction thattakes place is not commoditized,
you know, commercialized,celebrity driven thing that we
what we have now come to callcontemporary art. There is
(09:45):
something intrinsic about theart process that is needed to
sustain you and I creating work.Apart from the marketplace, the
work of art can exist on its ownwithout the marketplace. But
civilization cannot. Without thegift of art, we lose our soul.
Austin Kleon (10:13):
Another way to think about, you know, what what
he's talking about is processversus product.
Marcus Goodyear (10:19):
Yes.
Austin Kleon (10:20):
When we think about art, I mean, lot of people
think about art as the finishedwork. It's the thing up on the
wall. That is the product. Butthen there's the process of art.
There's everything that goesinto the artist's life.
There's the walk they take inthe morning. There's the
preparation of the materials.There's the inspiration. There
(10:43):
is the actual work that is doneover time to make the thing. And
I think that people who reallylove and understand art know
that they can feel that process,whether you really, you know,
you can feel what has gone intoa real work of art.
(11:04):
And I think we're in a momentright now where a lot of people
only understand the product ofart. And I think a lot of the,
you know, the chitchat about AIright now,
Camille Hall-Ortega (11:20):
You're reading our minds.
Austin Kleon (11:22):
These these are people who who really believe in
the product of art, and theydon't understand the process of
art. I mean, the entire worldright now is run by people who
don't know anything about art.Pretty much every tech person
has no idea what is really Idon't think there's an art lover
(11:43):
in the batch, really. Theycertainly don't they're
certainly not interested in interms of, well, won't
necessarily go there, but Ithink that's what people really
miss the point with AI work isthat there's no gift there.
There's no struggle. There's nolimitations, there's no, it's
(12:04):
just, it's all about product.Give me this thing.
Camille Hall-Ortega (12:07):
Yeah. It's prompting, you know? And I think
that people can tell that. Sothe artist is dealing with a
bunch of things. I think a lotof artists right now are really
upset. They think that they'restruggling with the technology
problem. A lot of what we'redealing with is an audience
problem. You simply don't havethe audience who's ready to
(12:29):
receive.
Marcus Goodyear (12:30):
If the audience hears poems from ChatGPT and
thinks they're good, that'sbecause they don't know how to
receive-
Camille Hall-Ortega (12:36):
There's all sort of evaluation issue with
audience. Right? That they don'tthey don't know what
Austin Kleon (12:41):
You know, and I'm not trying to be snobby. I'm
just saying you have adisappearing writers, for
example. There are you know, whoreads anymore? The problem isn't
that there's nothing to saynecessarily. The problem or that
chat GPT is gonna replace us oranything.
The problem is where is theaudience? Where is the audience
(13:03):
that is hungry for the human forthis kind of work? And so I
think part of the artist neverwants to think about the
audience. You know, they alwayswanna think about their work and
their process and this and that.But part of the great work of,
you know, making things in thisworld is finding people to
(13:24):
receive them and finding theright people to receive it.
Camille Hall-Ortega (13:27):
Austin, you're reading our minds because
we were very, very excited tohear what your thoughts are
about AI and creativity. But I'mloving what you're also saying
about product versus process.And I'm actually thinking about
the connection between thesethings. When you spoke about the
importance of process and sortof art as doing, not just as
(13:49):
product, It made me think ofeven the art that we have where
I am in in our San Antoniooffice, our sunset office. We
have many beautiful paintings,but we have a beautiful painting
from an artist.
Well we'll link her in our shownotes. But she did a beautiful
painting for us of a pinkconcha, which for for those that
aren't familiar is a Mexicanpastry dessert, essentially.
Austin Kleon (14:11):
Delicious.
Camille Hall-Ortega (14:12):
That are they're very delicious. And she
does these very realisticpaintings of things like concha,
conchas and other things thatreally represent her culture
that also represent culture inSan Antonio. And the piece is
stunning. But what was evenperhaps more stunning was her
(14:34):
discussing her process.
And so she spoke about going andbuying real conchas from
Panaderias and looking at eachone and deciding what color pink
this concha that she waspainting was going to include,
and then the process of creatingthe pinks that were going to be
(14:56):
included in the concha that shewas going to paint. And it was
just mind blowing to hear aboutthe process. And I think what's
important here is that you don'tget that with AI. Not going to
happen with AI. Can you justtalk about kind of this
intersection of product versusprocess and problems with AI?
Austin Kleon (15:20):
Well, I wrote a whole book about it. This is
what my book, this is what mybook, Show Your Work, is about.
Yeah. Yeah. Because one of thethings that I realized right
away is that that book,actually, now that we're talking
about it comes directly out ofthe tension that Lewis Hyde
talks about in the gift is thatyou have this gift to this
(15:42):
process, this thing that youlove to do, and you're trying to
make it exist, you're trying tothrive in this market driven
world.
In the old days, whencommunication was different and
the gatekeeping was differentand the world was different, you
weren't supposed to ever showanyone your process. That's how
(16:05):
the sausage is made, so tospeak.
Camille Hall-Ortega (16:07):
Yeah.
Austin Kleon (16:09):
But I really grew up admiring people like, I don't
know, I was you know, my momused to be a home ec teacher, so
I was always really interestedin people like Martha Stewart or
Bob Ross. These people who sortof like gave away their secrets
and kind of demystified theprocess. And so I was kind of
always inspired by that, but Ialso noticed as a young artist
(16:30):
that people were able to buildan audience for their work, not
just through their own work, butthe way they talked about their
work. Yes. And so many of thethings that artists are told,
like, you never show people howthe sausage is made.
The work should speak foritself. Mhmm. Someone always
speaks for the work. That's howart kind of works, actually.
(16:52):
That's how that world works.
And so what I was trying tofigure out with that book is
people would come to me and theymost artists hate self
promotion. They hate marketing.After Steal Like an Artist came
out, people would come up to meand then say, how did you do
this? How how did you go frombeing unknown and not even
(17:14):
really having work of your ownthat was that, you know, to to
where you are now?
And I was like, can I write abook about that? And that's what
Show Your Work was about becausewhat I saw was that all artists
really care about is theirprocess. What if there was a way
that they could share theirprocess while they were working
(17:34):
that could build an audience forwhat they do? And when they had
something ready for thataudience, that audience would
kind of be primed for it. Theywould be ready to receive it.
Marcus Goodyear (17:45):
Yeah, this is what you do, right? I mean, is
in some way feels like this isyour brand.
Austin Kleon (17:51):
So yeah, I practice what I preach here.
Like, yes. Yeah, it comes rightout of my experience.
Marcus Goodyear (17:57):
Right and the way you preach it makes it sound
easy. I have tried this. It'sbeen many years because I
essentially retreated and youknow, I wasn't producing the
kinds of content you are I don'twant delusional or anything but
I had a blog, had variousdifferent ways to kind of grow
(18:19):
my audience and was on track todo that And I found that as a
person I was changing and that Ilost the ability to decide how I
could be vulnerable and Iactually did not want to be
vulnerable about kind of theways in which I was beginning to
(18:41):
think about the world and felthonestly unsafe to share some of
those things with the audiencethat I had built. So how do you
be transparent about yourprocess and be vulnerable
essentially about who you are asan artist without, you know,
opening yourself up to harm?
Or maybe you just do and you'resome kind of super courageous
(19:03):
person that I am not.
Austin Kleon (19:05):
No. I'm not courageous. I'm cowardly. That's
very important to know about me.I am very cautious and cowardly.
So I hear what you're saying.The one thing that I think the
mistake of show your work isthis idea that was all about
authenticity and all abouttransparency and putting a
(19:27):
webcam up in your studio andbeing vulnerable twenty four
seven. I actually thought of itmore as I mean, I have a real
marketing part of me. You know,I'm driven by opposites. I I I
find that the tension I I thinkthe tension in the creative
life, you know, we're in aculture right now.
It's like, oh, tension bad.Like, oh, man. I don't wanna be
(19:50):
tense. Like, oh, you gotta,like, loosen up. But I find that
tension is this very importantthing for creative work is that
in the way I describe it topeople is like a guitar string.
Guitar string is is slungbetween two opposites, two
poles. And if you don't ratchetup the tension on a guitar
(20:12):
string, if you would loosen thetension totally, it just buzzes
and there's no music, just makesnoise. If you ratchet it too
tight, it snaps. And and so itis with our spirit. Our spirit
needs just the right tension.
There needs to be just the righttension and work to create
energy, you need to be able to,like, tap into that tension for
(20:33):
the music to happen. But for me,that tension is that marketing,
wanting the work out in theworld but wanting to do really
good work and be the art the theartist in the market. Right?
Yeah. But to go back to yourinitial question, my thing is
that you control what you share.
You are in control of what youshare. When you stick a webcam
(20:56):
up in your studio, that willshut you down because you're
being observed. So my feelingwas always the tension is to try
to proceed as if you're notgoing to share things and then
to later pick up these littlebits and pieces and say, oh,
here are things that I canshare. Right? And I do think
(21:19):
that in some ways, it'sworthwhile to, like, you'll
notice that, like, I don'tactually share stuff while I'm
working on a book.
You know, I I I'm too in theheadspace of it's too raw. It's
too I'm too vulnerable. I can'tshare things, you know, from a
book. But what I can do is do,like, a piece about, here's
(21:41):
what's helping me write thisweek, you know, and talk about,
I don't know, writing books orsomething. You know what I mean?
Like, there's always and and oneof the ways that I tell people,
so what I so my great hustle isis that I have this newsletter
that I do every week on Fridaythat that people that in some
(22:02):
ways is kind of what I'm knownfor. You know, I'm known for the
books, and then the newsletteris kind of the thing that people
really interact with and has areally big audience.
Marcus Goodyear (22:11):
This is the freebie newsletter on Substack.
Austin Kleon (22:13):
The freebie newsletter that's been going on
way before Substack and will begoing on way after Substack.
Yeah. Just so I can say that outloud because I I like Substack
as a platform right now, but Idon't trust it. And they know
that and I've told them that,you know?
But to me, the newsletter issomething that I've been doing
for about a dozen years now. Andit's a list of 10 things I think
(22:37):
are worth sharing every Friday.Yeah. And, the great thing that
I do in that newsletter is everyweek I give you this stuff that
I think is really interesting.And then when I have something
to sell to you, it goes right upat the top of the list. So every
week I'm building a relationshipwith this audience. I'm giving
(23:00):
them great things. I'm trying tobe as generous as I can. I'm
trying to point out as much as Ican.
I'm trying to like give peopleas much good stuff. And then the
minute I have something to sellthem, that's the good stuff.
Here's what I made for you. Youcan buy it here. So that is my
great work of like showing mywork is that every Friday you
(23:20):
get this kind of peek at what'smaking me excited what's going
into my work.
And that's part of the process,and I'm showing you that stuff
while I'm busy cooking upwhatever I got going, you know,
on my own stuff. And then whenit's time to blow out my own
stuff, you're gonna hear aboutit because I've got your email.
(23:41):
And so that's the dance between,you know, that's the dance
between the gift and the that'sthe gift. And that and and and
the layers of the newsletterhave changed now because we have
a paid tier now.
I say we as if it's someoneother than me and May, my wife,
doing this thing. But, the ideawith the paid tier was, okay.
(24:03):
You wanna get a little bitcloser to the process. You want
to hear from me twice a week.You wanna get writing that might
end up in a book someday, butyou want to get it right now
when it's raw and new.
Okay, well, pay $50 a year andyou get that connection and
you're able to talk back at mein the comments and stuff. So,
you know, it's kind of that, youknow, Marcus, I really hear what
(24:26):
you're saying because it it is,you know, in some ways, I'm
selling access to me. You know?I mean, there is a sense that
the the Tuesday tier and by theway, I am blessed with the most
I have the kindest, nicestaudience. This has always been
true.
(24:46):
The comment section of the paidnewsletter is like standing in
line at one of my book signings.Just the nicest people. I don't
know what the one thing I'll sayabout the work is a lot of jerks
don't show up. Know, jerks justdon't show up. And so, but I do
think that these days, if youhave a kind of walled garden,
(25:08):
you know, everybody, you know,because people are like, well,
why don't you let us comment ifwe are not paying people?
And I'm like, well, one of thethings that happens when you pay
into something and you buy intoit is that you really want to
keep it nice. You have a senseof ownership over it.
Marcus Goodyear (25:21):
Yes.
Austin Kleon (25:22):
Right? And so the comment section in our Tuesday
newsletter and even in theFriday because only paid people
are able to comment on theFriday newsletter. So sometimes
the Friday newsletter is just asinteresting. But again, this is
why our world is so strange. Themarket, again, if we think about
that gift economy and the marketeconomy, putting up a market
(25:44):
paywall saying, no, you gottapay to get in here, It actually
creates a space in which giftthings can enter.
Marcus Goodyear (25:54):
That's right. I really resist product in my work
maybe because I have product inmy day to day work and so my
creative work, try to keep, puresounds like a judgment on the
work I do to get paid, which I'mvery grateful for the H. Bett
Foundation. I love working here.But when I write poetry or when
(26:14):
I do plays, I have no morefavorite art form than live
theater, which is you can'treplace live theater with AI, I
don't think. Don't think thatthat's actually possible.
Austin Kleon (26:25):
No.
Marcus Goodyear (26:25):
But with poetry, when I pulled back from
a very early and clumsy attemptto build a brand, I decided to
just write poetry for friends,for myself and never share and
never submit. And it's been tenyears since I started doing that
and I'm beginning to wonder atsome point do I come out of that
(26:46):
but it's it's very freeing.
Austin Kleon (26:50):
Well, you're in great company. I mean, Emily
Dickenson.
Marcus Goodyear (26:53):
Well, yeah, I don't wanna be delusional, but I
mean And she's great.
Austin Kleon (26:58):
But pretty awesome. The I the thing I love
about Emily Dickinson though islike she's writing poems on the
back of envelopes that peoplehave sent her. And she's
including poems and, like,letters she's sending. There's a
get talk about the gift. I mean,like, one of the things I write
about and keep going is that ifyou're feeling burnt out, you
(27:20):
know, one of the things I hateabout this culture is that the
minute you show any proficiencyfor anything, well, you know,
oh, this fried chicken. Oh, youcan fry chicken. You know what?
What comes next? You could havea food trailer.
Camille Hall-Ortega (27:35):
You could have it. Yeah. You should sell.
Austin Kleon (27:37):
It's the first thing we say. It's the it's the
major compliment we give to talkabout. You should take that
thing that you love to do thatI'm loving right now. You should
ruin it by making it your job.That's exactly what you should
do.
Right? And so make money. Youknow?
Marcus Goodyear (27:51):
Yes. Stay an amateur.
Austin Kleon (27:52):
Yeah. I mean, that's one of the first things I
tell people is like, if you haveturned your hobby into your job,
which a lot of the people thatI've talked to have, guess what?
You gotta get a new hobby. And alot of artists, you know, that
some whatever they're doing thatthey were loving, you know, and
when you turn it into your job,you need something else that's
(28:12):
outside of the market. You needsomething that's pure gift.
Camille Hall-Ortega (28:15):
A lot of what you're saying, it really
sounds like there's a lot offreedom and just kind of letting
go in your art. Just allowingyourself not to have to put so
many expectations on where isthis going? What am I gonna do
with this? Can I make money offof this? Am I gonna eat off of
this?
And, of course, as you'vediscussed, it doesn't always
(28:37):
feel like that's somethingthat's easy to do for a number
of reasons. But there's a beautyin this sort of letting go of
those expectations and of thosekind of multilayered need from
the art.
Austin Kleon (28:53):
Yeah, I mean, I think that our you know, a hero
of mine is Brian Eno, and one ofthe tensions that he talks about
culturally is this idea ofcontrol and surrender. Mhmm. An
artist is someone who hascontrol and surrender in a
unique tension because you'resort of in control and you're
(29:13):
sort of not. Like you're givingyourself over to an experience
and surrender is a big part ofit. You know, it's again, it's a
matter of spirit, not oftechnique necessarily.
And the other thing that I wroteabout this week is if you don't
show up for yourself and yourown creative work, you can't
(29:35):
show up for the world. A lot ofthe creative people I know
there's a lady I know named BethPickens, who's a who's a art
coach. And she said this thingthat just, like, drilled right
to my core. She said, artistsand creative people are people
artists in particular. Shetalked because her whole thing
is artists.
(29:56):
Artists are people who aredriven to make creative work.
And when they don't make it,their quality of life suffers.
They suffer. And so it's a lotof what I do right now is just
trying to be the thing I wannasee last. And so when you're
kind of, like, in the currentsof the moment, like with the AI
(30:18):
stuff, I'm trying to keep anopen mind about it.
I'm trying to, you know, just,okay, well, we'll see what
happens. But there's also a deeppart of me that believes so much
in the struggle of the brainwants to do something, but the
hand wants to do something else.And the hand turns out to be
smarter than the brain. And thehand tells the brain something
(30:41):
that the brain didn't know aboutitself. And it's this two way
street of, you know, idea andexecution and brain and hand and
spirit and body, you know?
Marcus Goodyear (30:54):
Yes.
Austin Kleon (30:54):
And I know that that's where the magic of the
stuff comes out. And I just feelreally bad for a generation that
might not experience that. Butthen I think to myself, as long
as you do it and you celebrateit, you're helping it continue.
Camille Hall-Ortega (31:13):
That's right.
Marcus Goodyear (31:14):
The next generation is still gonna have
bodies.
Austin Kleon (31:17):
Yeah. Right? They're still gonna have hands.
It's gonna fall apart on you andit's gonna, you know, you're
gonna have to wrestle with it. Ithink I'm very interested in, I
mean, that's a whole differentsubject, but I collect stories
of people whose physicalshortcomings or differences led
(31:39):
to some signature work.
So I think of, I'm the parent oftwo people who stutter. And
there are a lot of people whostutter turn into writers
because they wanna write the waythey wish they could talk. But
there's even more interestingthings like that. Then, like,
Art Spiegelman, the cartoonisthas amblyopia, I think is how
(32:00):
you say it, but he has onefunctioning eye. Oh, When you
have one functioning eye, itflattens the world.
You don't have depth perception.Well, in a certain con if you're
playing baseball, that's notgonna you're not gonna hit much.
Like, you're not gonna catchmany balls when you don't have
depth perception. But if youwanna be a cartoonist, it's like
(32:21):
a superpower because the world'sflat for you. Right?
Tommy Iommi, the guitar playerfor Black Sabbath, lost two
fingers in a two fingertips inan industrial accent. He fitted
his fingers with these leathercaps, and he detuned his guitar
so that he could, you know, movethe strings better. Well, Black
(32:43):
Sabbath, a lot of the sound ofthat metal band comes from those
detuned sludgy guitars. So Mhmm.Regina Spector, songwriter,
wanted to be a classicalpianist.
They said, your hands are toosmall. You're never going to be
a classical pianist. Okay, well,I'll write pop songs then or,
you know, I'll be a songwriter.So the things that make us
(33:04):
different are in the rightcontext or superpowers. You
know, Saul Steinberg said thething that we respond to in any
work of art is the struggle ofthe artist against his or her
limitations.
Marcus Goodyear (33:20):
I love that. I love that. It gives me hope
because creativity is is findinga way. Yeah. It's, you know,
it's it's gonna come through.
Yep.
Camille Hall-Ortega (33:29):
Awesome.
Austin, this has been amazing.
Yes. Thank you somuch. I had fun.
We did too.
Marcus Goodyear (33:36):
We did too.
Austin Kleon (33:36):
So nice to talk to you.
Camille Hall-Ortega (33:38):
Too much of what you do is encourage
artists, and so thank you forall of the encouragement today.
I am inspired. Truly.
Austin Kleon (33:45):
Yes. Oh, I'm glad.
Marcus Goodyear (33:46):
Yes. Thank you so much. The Echoes podcast is
written and produced by CamilleHall-Ortega, Rob Stennett, and
me, Marcus Goodyear. It's editedby Rob Stennett and Kim Stone.
Our executive producers arePatton Dodd and David Rogers.
Special thanks to our guesttoday, Austin Kleon. I don't
know if he subscribes to EchoesMagazine or not, but he should,
(34:07):
and you can too because it'sfree. Go to echosmagazine.org to
subscribe. You'll receive abeautiful print magazine each
quarter, and, did we mentionthat it's free? You can find a
link in our show notes.
The Echoes Podcast and EchoesMagazine are both productions
brought to you by theH.E.Butt Foundation.
Camille Hall-Ortega (34:23):
Learn more about our vision and mission at
hebfdn.org.
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