January 7, 2025 • 31 mins
How do we find true belonging in our communities, and what responsibility do we have to help others do the same? On this episode of The Echoes Podcast, hosts Marcus Goodyear and Camille Hall-Ortega welcome Reverend Ben McBride, faith leader, activist, CEO of the Empower Initiative, and author of Troubling the Water. Ben shares his powerful story of moving his family to East Oakland’s “Kill Zone” to live alongside the youth he served. As you can imagine, it wasn’t always easy. Join us as we explore the challenges of finding belonging, building bridges across differences, and the profound lessons Ben learned along the way.
LINKS & RESOURCES
Do you like this story? You’ll love Echoes Magazine. Print subscriptions are free from the H. E. Butt Foundation:
Subscribe - Echoes Magazine (hebfdn.org)
See the Echoes video and article that inspired this episode:
Know Your Neighbor: Rain or Shine - Community Engagement (hebfdn.org)
Read our president David Rogers’ reflect on what he has learned from Rev. Ben McBride:
Widening Our Circle - From the President (hebfdn.org)
Hear our president David Rogers on Ben McBride’s podcast An Invitation to Become:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/4p1GtejMKyaewpOalIejj9?si=Q2HFRec3R_OJxxIRlz_dnA
Buy Ben’s Book and learn more about the Empower Initiative:
Ben McBride Book Troubling the Water — Ben McBride
Empower Initiative
REFERENCES
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Marcus Goodyear (00:04):
Where are you from? The standard conversation
starter is a hard one for me. Mydad was in the Air Force. We
moved 10 times as I was growingup. US census data shows that
Americans move 11 times in theirlifetime.
Eleven times on average, we willchoose a new community to live
in. It's not an easy thing todo. I mean, I should know. Every
(00:24):
time I moved, I had to figureout where I belonged again. I
had to rediscover community.
And different communities havedifferent rules about who
belongs and who doesn't. Therules in Oklahoma are different
from the rules in Alabama orColorado or Texas. And figuring
out those rules, finding ourplace in a community, even just
introducing ourselves to otherpeople, it's tricky. Too often,
(00:48):
a neighborhood isn't a communityto belong. It's just a place to
live.
Too often a neighbor is just theperson who happens to live next
door, so we find belonging at aa new workplace or a new church
or in other ways. And this isn'tthe way we want things to be. We
want the American dream with thefront porch, and the picket
(01:09):
fence, and the neighborhoodbarbecues. We want real
community. How do we find it?
And what responsibility, if any,do we have to help others find
their community and their placeof belonging? From the H.E.Butt
Foundation, I'm Marcus Goodyear,and this is The Echoes Podcast.
Our guest today is Reverend BenMcBride, internationally
(01:30):
recognized faith leader,activist, and sought after
speaker, CEO of the EmpowerInitiative in Oakland,
California, and recent author ofTroubling the Water. In 2008,
Ben moved his family to EastOakland because he wanted to
live in the same neighborhood asthe young people he was serving
on that side of town. Tounderstand their needs and their
community to serve them better,he became their neighbor.
(01:53):
Literally. It may not seem likesuch a big deal, except for one
thing. His new neighborhood hada nickname, The Kill Zone. I'm
here today with my co-host,Camille Hall-Ortega. How are
you, Camille?
Camille Hall-Ortega (02:05):
Doing well. I'm excited for today's episode
for sure.
Marcus Goodyear (02:09):
Me too. Me too. Ben, you moved to a neighborhood
called the kill zone with yourfamily. Why would you do that?
Ben McBride (02:17):
Well, you know, I have had many moments of
thinking about that myself. Ithink I was responding to a
moment that was in front of mewithout having a lot of clarity
about the many moments that weregoing to come after. But the
moment that was in front of mewas that I was a faith leader in
the city, did not feel that Iwas responsive to the highest
(02:41):
degree of pain that washappening in the city. And and
if I'm, you know, absolutelyhonest, I would say I think
there also were some messianickind of ideas that I had about
what I was gonna be able tobring to the story, and so I
probably was also putting on alittle bit of my Batman costume.
I've since retired that, but ifI'm honest, that probably was a
(03:02):
part of it as well.
Camille Hall-Ortega (03:04):
It sounds like you, obviously, with most
things in life, found some prosand cons. Would you would you do
it again?
Ben McBride (03:12):
Wow. Would I do it again? I think I would do it
again, but I think I would do itdifferently. I feel like I've
learned a lot, you know, almost20 years since that move, and I
do believe that my presencethere helped really contribute
in a significant and meaningfulway to the saving of the lives
(03:33):
of others. And so I would dothat again.
What I would do differently wasto have more awareness around
the impact on my wife, on mychildren, and not have
disappeared their needs asquickly as I did. There's
actually a, psychological termfor it called inattentional
blindness, where it says when wefocus on one thing, our brain
(03:55):
literally disappears out ofthings around us. And I think
what I missed in my obstructionspot was the fact that my girls
were going to need certainthings growing up that I needed
to negotiate, that there is alevel of honesty that Janelle
needed about the work that I wasleaning into that we needed to
negotiate. So if I would do itdifferently, I think I would
(04:16):
lean into it with a lot moretransparency rather than trying
to be, the caped crusader, as Idescribed.
Camille Hall-Ortega (04:24):
No. That makes perfect sense. Marcus and
I have heard some of this storybefore, and we share some of
your story in our Echoesarticle. But will you share a
little bit about the experience,about what it looked like to
move into the kill zone and someof the challenges that you
faced.
Ben McBride (04:43):
Yeah. I mean, when we moved in, it was the summer
of 2008. And so in Oakland,California, like most cities
across the United States, thesummer is the time when gun
violence is most of a challenge,particularly because of all the
environmental dynamics andeconomic dynamics. And so it
(05:03):
just breeds a kind ofenvironment where, people are
outside of their houses, usuallynot with all the right things to
do, and it creates a differentkinds of conflict. We had just
left, you know, a very kind ofsuburban neighborhood, you know,
about 20, 25 minutes away, andwe move in.
(05:25):
And there's just a starkdifference of vibe, of flow, of
feel of culture, of sound, ofsmell. And what I wasn't as
prepared for was the thefeelings that I would have even
about people who looked like me.I I had feelings of, fear,
mistrust. I had all kinds ofother implicit biases that if
(05:49):
you would have told me when wasliving 25 minutes away that I
had, I would have told you youwere crazy. I would have said,
I'm black.
I'm proximate to this communityalready. I pastored in churches.
I've worked at communityorganizations. But something
about shifting where I lived toa place that actually was
hearing, you know, feeling,smelling, like all of the
(06:10):
challenges that, ourneighborhood was, it created a
visceral reaction in my physicalbody. And and I think over the
course of time, I learned morehow much my neighbors were
negotiating this feeling all thetime.
And that before I moved in, Iwould show up to have a
transactional interactionwithout really appreciating
(06:34):
their lived experience. And so Ithink that daily in and out, the
daily negotiation of, do I letmy daughter go throw this in the
garbage can outside? The dailynegotiation of, is it time to
get out of our car and go intothe house after picking up the
girls from school because thereare some unfamiliar people that
I'm seeing hanging out on thecorner? The the daily
(06:56):
negotiation of walking the dogand literally pausing behind a
camper that's parked because Isee a car driving slowly up the
street. And, you know, insteadof instincts, I like to call it
my hood stinks.
My my hood stinks go up. And Isay, I think I need to pause.
And when I do pause, the carspeeds up and does a drive by
(07:16):
shooting on the house for housesahead of where I'm walking.
Marcus Goodyear (07:19):
Woah.
Ben McBride (07:20):
The daily negotiation of that caused the
level of, I don't know,adrenaline. It made me more
aware. It's the only way I cantalk about it. Just gave me an
awareness of the reality thathuman beings in different
neighborhoods have verydifferent experiences.
Marcus Goodyear (07:39):
What I hear you saying is that our neighborhood
shapes our perspective. And tosome degree, I think you said it
shaped your identity or reshapedyour identity.
Ben McBride (07:49):
Yeah.
Marcus Goodyear (07:50):
So in in this sense, you were choosing the
neighborhood. You were choosingto be shaped by that community.
Often, I think we're we're noteven choosing our community with
intentionality. So how do wechoose our communities with more
intentionality, and and how dowe choose our communities
bravely like you did?
Ben McBride (08:08):
Mhmm. I am not a champion of people simply just
showing up into an unfamiliarneighborhood and just trying to
figure it out. What we alwayshave to keep in mind is in the
same way that you have a storyabout a place that you're
wanting to enter, that place hasa story about people who enter.
Marcus Goodyear (08:30):
Uh-huh.
Ben McBride (08:30):
And so a part of what's necessary is if we're
going to really do, you know,the work of getting closer to
neighbors and communities thatare not like our own, I
encourage people to do that inthe context of community,
meaning you along with othersthat can serve as, big brokers,
if you will, for how you show upin that community in a way that
(08:53):
honors, in a way that still hasroom for curiosity, but also, is
mutually beneficial in the sensethat what it is that you are
going to gain by nature of beingproximate to someone that's
different, that that person whois different also mutually,
benefits from your presence andfrom that relationship. You
(09:14):
know, if we're gonna get closeto each other, we've gotta do it
carefully, bravely. I'm a Jesusfollowing guy. And so for me,
one of the things that's rootedin that story is Jesus did not
just send his followers intocommunities to engage without
spending ample time preparingthem to engage. I think we need
(09:35):
to get close, but I think weneed to do so in community with
others, in community with thosethat we're trying to get close
to. And I'm a strong champion ofgoing slow so that we can
ultimately go fast.
Camille Hall-Ortega (09:48):
I imagine exactly what you're describing
that, you know, it could feelfolks could feel like they were
on display or some sort ofexhibit if it's like, you don't
even know what it's like in thisneighborhood. And they're like,
well, let me come and see. Well,you don't know the history. You
don't have this contextualizedfor you. You don't know how your
(10:09):
presence is affecting thereality that you're that you
think you're experiencing.
So it's making me think of acouple of experiences that our
storytelling team does throughknow your neighbor where we do
neighborhood immersions. And sowe have, like, a west side
immersion and east sideimmersion where exactly that
(10:29):
happens. We sort of are are ableto act as liaison or broker our
storytelling team in order tomake sure that that everything's
done respectfully and ashonoring the folks that the the
people who don't live in thatneighborhood are interacting
with. And I think that's key.
Ben McBride (10:48):
You know, Marcus and Camille, I think that's the
work. Right? The work is to giveit a shot, to try to keep
getting better at it becauseit's difficult. We have been so
segregated from each other bythe notion of, economy,
identity, religion, group. Andwe've been so segregated that
(11:09):
we've almost collectively lostsome of the muscle memory of how
to actually engage with eachother across difference.
And as much as our hearts havethe aspiration, some of us are
more afraid of showing up wrongand creating more harm. Some of
us are are afraid of beingmisunderstood and the impact
psychological impact of that onus. And it can be easy for us to
(11:33):
just tap out and say, you knowwhat? I think I'm just gonna go
to the movies. I get it.
But I do think if if we're goingto get to the world that we know
we need, it's going to be usbeing willing to see that almost
as a part of our fitness aswell. Right? We work out during
the week to get stronger in ourbodies. We participate with
spiritual activities to getstronger in our spirit. Maybe
(11:55):
some of the intentionality ofclosing our proximity to
different neighborhoods is alsoa part of our holistic fitness
that grows our ability to holdcommunity together and to move
out of this kind of segregatedpast that we've had.
Camille Hall-Ortega (12:10):
You you used a phrase there that I hear
a lot in belonging work. I'mthinking of Latasha Morrison
with Be the Bridge and the likedo the work. And I think so many
people want to understand, havea desire to understand, or at
least think they do, or want tobroaden their perspective or
widen their circle of humanconcern. And and but when the
(12:32):
work comes up, it gets a littletough.
What is it what kind of work doyou think this involves?
Ben McBride (12:41):
Yeah. I I think, you know, one of the things I
unpack a lot and, you know, Italk about it in in Trouble in
the Water, but it's more so beenmy formative journey, which is
the 5 a's. So I think gettingproximate helps us grow in our
awareness. But there's a fewmore steps that I think help us
e even more, and one is reallyleaning into accountability.
(13:03):
That is a deep part of the work.
It's once I become aware ofsomething, I wanna ask myself
some deep questions in selfreflection. Is there any way
that I've been complicit in theothering or the lack of people
experiencing, you know, a a veryhuman experience in this
neighborhood, in this city? Isthere any way I've been, you
(13:24):
know, complicit in that, whetherit's overtly or implicitly? But
but let me move into somereflection and and look at
myself. There's a wonderfulauthor, doctor Shawn Ginwright,
who's got a wonderful bookcalled The Four Pivots.
And in it, one of the things hetalks about is how we need to
move from lens to mirror, thatsometimes when we see something,
(13:44):
what we do is we bring our lens.And his invitation is let's move
away from the lens and move tothe mirror. That instead of
trying to take whatever it'sreligious lens, ideological
lens, family lens, and seesomething through it, let's look
in the mirror and say, why do Ifeel this way? What's coming up
for me? And when I talk aboutaccountability, the mirror work
is about how have I beencomplicit.
(14:05):
But then after we do the work ofself reflection, so that's the
that's the step is selfreflection, is then moving into
the last three, which arearticulation, advocacy, and
activation. In articulation, wespend time learning how to talk
about the experiences of othersin the ways that they would talk
about them. So that doesn't meanthat I disappear my opinion
(14:30):
about what's happening, but itdoes mean that I get good being
able to talk about someoneelse's experience in a way that
I can actually look to them andsay, am I saying it the way that
you would say it? It's reallyabout making sure we increase
the connection with that personto ensure that I'm able to tell
your story the way you wouldtell it. And then after I am
getting good at telling yourstory, then the last two ways
(14:52):
are really about advocacy is melooking into my own heart and
asking myself, where and how canI show up for these people that
I'm growing in relationshipwith, whose story I'm learning
to tell better?
Advocacy sometimes is, how do Ihold this other perspective in a
meeting where this person's notthere? It's not about showing up
(15:13):
with, anger or showing up withconfrontation. It's just
literally about showing up. Youknow, at the end of that, to me,
is activation, and which is myinvitation is once we learn how
to get closer to others, it'sthen at that point that we can
start inviting other people tokinda go on a journey that we're
on. I'm a firm believer that weshould not rush through this
(15:37):
work and simply get a new story,get some new words, and then
start, virtue signaling andjudging other people and telling
them what they need to do.
I think we should slow down,learn how to make it a part of
our story, and then with aspirit of humility, let's invite
others to join us on thejourney.
Marcus Goodyear (15:55):
Hearing you talk about that reminded me of
the 4 quadrants in your book.Here's your book, by the way.
Oh. I just wanna hold it up.Shout out to your book.
Camille Hall-Ortega (16:02):
Big fan.
Marcus Goodyear (16:03):
But in the book, you talk about these 4
quadrants of identity, andthere's, power and privilege.
And I think what you were justsaying, Ben, is about advocacy
for people who are persecuted orwho are prevented. To me, those
two parts of the quadrant, thethe persecuted and the
prevented, feel like similarthings but of differing degrees.
(16:23):
Am I understanding that right?That somebody who is persecuted
feels blocked sometimes.
Somebody who is prevented, theyjust they don't have belonging
anywhere.
Ben McBride (16:31):
So the way that I would nuance that is to say
that, certainly, the way that Italk about persecution is people
are blocked, as you said, orrestricted from that sense of
belonging. And and, again, theway that we're talking about
belonging is the ability toco-create, the ability to have
agency to shape this thing thatwe're going to belong to.
Whereas prevention is someonewho does not have any agency.
(16:56):
They they have no access to thetable to shape this circle of
human concern that we're tryingto build with each other. All of
us are the powerful, privileged,persecuted, and prevention based
upon the scenario.
Right? And so nobody is onething. So, I know what it feels
like to have limited, access andagency. I know what it feels
(17:19):
like to not have any access oragency, but I also know what it
feels like in smaller and largerways to really be able to
influence how things go or tobenefit from how something's
been designed. When I'm in thepowerful and privileged seats,
how am I, as a part of mypractice, being very, emotional
(17:40):
intelligent and self aware aboutwho's got limited access to this
thing that I've got a lot ofaccess to and who has none.
And it's less about me judgingwhy I do have access. It's more
about me having awareness aboutwho does not. And then because
of the love that I have for allhuman beings across this
(18:01):
quadrant, it helps me shape thechoices and the actions I take
because of the awareness I have.I feel like sometimes it goes
off the cliff is is when we getinto this space of we any of us
feeling defensive because wehave power or we have privilege
or there's some sense of, well,if I have power and privilege
(18:22):
and somebody's saying I'm a badperson or I don't care about
everybody else in the quadrant,etcetera, etcetera. Who has
decision making power?
Who who really can help shapesomething? Most times, people
who've had limited access ornone at all, limited agency or
none at all, don't just wanna beincluded into something that was
(18:43):
designed by somebody else. Theywanna be a part of helping to
shape that thing that we're allgonna belong to. And I think
that's the work, for those of usin the powerful and the
privileged. Not to feel badabout ourselves, but to be aware
and to get proximate.
Marcus Goodyear (18:56):
So America is a very transient culture. People
move a lot. I have moved so manytimes in my life. If I ever move
again, it will be too soon. Dopeople have a responsibility to
be less transient or to to tryto connect with their local
neighborhoods and their localcommunities?
Ben McBride (19:16):
I think that the the opportunities that people
have is to think about the thecommunities, that aren't like
them. How do they get closer, tothose folks? But then I think
it's also important for peopleto figure out how to get closer,
to the people that are withintheir, most proximate
(19:36):
communities already. How do Itake that opportunity to, get
close to them? But then how do Ialso take the opportunity, where
I live, work, and play with thepeople who are most like me and
have conversations with peoplewho may not necessarily feel as
inspired or encouraged to goacross town.
(19:58):
Maybe they're they're stilltelling old stories about these
people across town and thesenarratives that they've heard. I
think there's a real opportunityat barbecues, at dinner tables,
not to be confrontational, butactually to be in relationship
and help, folks that don't haveas much courage to go across,
(20:19):
town. I have found my experienceof being a human only gets more
enriched when I take theopportunity to get more
proximate to people who aredifferent from me and to get
deeper in relationship withpeople who are most like me. And
so I just encourage us to takethose opportunities because the
the worst thing for all of us issegregation and isolation. The
(20:42):
more we stay away from eachother, the more that we lose the
the visual of how beautiful andwonderful we all are and that we
all have something to contributeto this larger story we're a
part of.
I was for a period, but not notanymore of calling folks out.
I'm much more of the notion ofcalling folks in. And some folks
(21:04):
might say, well, that justfeels, you know, like semantics.
And I say, no. For me, it is alittle bit of a different,
practice.
In calling out, I'm wanting topoint out to the person where
they've got it wrong. In callingfolks in, what I'm wanting to do
is to try to understand moredeeply where this person is
coming from. To speak to themhonestly about this notion of,
(21:28):
here's here's why I feel likethat, particular take is is
actually making the circlesmaller and not larger. But in
the calling in practice, whatI'm also trying to do is to
almost like a hen of sorts siton an egg and wait for it to
hatch.
It may never hatch. You know? Imean, some of us come from
(21:51):
different experiences in life.Some of us are digesting
misinformation. Some of us haveviews that are dangerous toward
other communities.
Some of that can change. Some ofit may not change. What I am
hopeful for in these moments isthat we try to figure out,
regardless as to whether theperson has a problematic
(22:14):
perspective, how do I learn howto continue my connection?
Camille Hall-Ortega (22:19):
Your take there about calling out versus
calling in, I think that's soimportant, especially in the
seasons that we're in here inour country that when politics
get involved, it can oftentimesfeel divisive. I know for people
of faith, which I know I imaginethat a lot of the folks who will
listen to this will be people offaith. We are called to love,
(22:42):
and God tells us over and overin scripture to love our
neighbor, to love our neighboras ourselves, to to love your
enemies, to pray for those whopersecute you. Right? All of
these things that sound greatand we know their truth because
they're God-breathed, but we go,what does that look like
(23:04):
practically?
And so I just appreciate thetools that you're mentioning
because these things are reallydifficult, but we know that God
calls us to them. We know thatthat I mean, even just our
golden rule, just treat othersthe way you wanna be treated,
sounds great and is super hardin practice. And so I appreciate
(23:27):
some of the tools that you areare giving us and talking
through because I think they'rereally powerful.
Ben McBride (23:33):
I'm encouraging people to really adapt or adopt,
I should say, the practice ofthe pause. You know, how do you
slow down in the face of ofrising emotion, rising thoughts?
Slow down, and make a choice tosee the person. I'm going to see
(23:54):
the human, not see the ideology,not see the statement. I'm gonna
see the human.
Now I'm gonna ask myself, Iwonder why this person feels how
they feel, believes what theybelieve. If we can get ourselves
to slow down, take a deepbreath, and actually rehumanize
(24:14):
the person because all of us aremore than our statements, our
beliefs. And I've, you know, hadfolks tell me, you know, well,
Ben, how how is it that you feellike you could be in
relationship with people thatare all across the political
spectrum, the religiousspectrum? Some of these people
are very harmful. They're toxic.
They're they're tearing thecountry apart. They're tearing
our communities apart. And I'vetold folks, you celebrated me
(24:37):
for being in deep relationshipswith loved ones who were
shooters in the community, whowere literally shooting and
taking the lives of otherpeople. So if you could
celebrate and understand mydesire to humanize them, then I
think you've gotta think about,the invitation for us to
humanize each other who may notbe shooting at each other,
(24:59):
hopefully, and they're andthey're not causing bias to each
other.
You know, the invitation is tothink about who it is that we
can become in these moments. Andrather than trying to solve all
the big problems of our countryfrom a meta level, my
encouragement is, let's figureout what this looks like in my
neighborhood, in my community,in my city. Maybe I try to
(25:21):
figure out what does it mean forthe 4 to 6 houses of the people
that I talk to on my block orthe 4 to 5 people that are in
the small group at my church.Let me figure out how to have
the conversation there and thenlet the circle keep getting
wider and wider and wider untilit could stretch out to bring in
even those that were notproximate too.
Marcus Goodyear (25:39):
That reminds me of Howard Butt Junior and
something he used to say to theH.E.Butt Foundation. So this I
wanna go back into archives fora second and actually bring his
voice into this conversation. Hewas really intensely focused on
unity.
He was intensely focused onhospitality, in creating spaces
where anyone could come into,some campsites we run as an
(26:02):
organization and feel welcome.So we've worked really hard to
make sure that everybody canaccept who we are while also
feeling empowered to be who theyare. And, so this is some advice
he gave the foundation in 1997,but I wanted to go ahead and
listen to it and, and get yourtake on it.
Howard Butt Junior (26:20):
When you get hacked at somebody or for find
yourself developing a slow burntowards somebody, the best thing
you can do is find a way to talkto them about it. You might feel
that you need to go to somebodyelse first. Don't let those
bitter feelings or hard feelingsfester inside you. If you do,
(26:41):
they'll poison you. So it's justso crucial that we get our
personal hang ups with eachother out on top the table and
try to understand where theother person's coming from.
To practice relationalsensitivity, meeting people
where they are. What that meansis that we just don't try to
bulldoze people. We are not inthe bulldozing business.
Marcus Goodyear (27:05):
Do you find yourself in the bulldozing
business sometime and having tostep back from it?
Ben McBride (27:09):
I understand where bulldozing comes from because I
think when we're stressed out,you're trying to figure out how
to relieve your stress. Andsometimes there's a tendency to
run over folks because you'retrying to relieve your stress.
But I really resonate with whathe's sharing because I think the
(27:30):
invitation is to move off of thebulldozer and to slow down and
to listen, to get in connection,to move closer. And in that,
we're usually going to learnsome things that we didn't know.
Think historically the way thatwe've talked about unity in the
country and a lot of ourorganizations.
(27:51):
You know, I would nuance that tosay, let's move from unity to
harmony.
And I was in a conversationactually on my street, in the
kill zone talking to a Muslimimam who was one of my neighbors
that moved in across the street.And we were talking about these
ideas of of unity and beingtogether. I remember he said
(28:14):
something to me, and it reallystayed with me. He said, you
know, Ben, I don't know that weneed unity, which is just the
the notion of let's all cometogether and be 1. He said, I
think we should move moretowards harmony, which is like
agreement in action.
We move towards harmony, whichallows me to be all of me. It
allows you to be all of you, butwe learn how to be it in
parallel ways that cause us tokeep moving in the same
(28:37):
direction. It's not either youlose and I win or I lose and you
win. There is a way for us tomove together. We've gotta
pause, get close to one another,and do the work of moving in
harmony.
Marcus Goodyear (28:49):
So does that scale up? I mean, the way we're
talking about it here with a fewpeople, harmony sounds great.
But what about, like, theharmonic states of America? Is
that does that make sense?
Ben McBride (28:58):
Well, I mean, I think the only way that, change
happens is it usually startssmall when a lot of different
people, begin to startpracticing, dynamics and
community that, move outwards.Let's get some wins for
everybody in the story so thatwe increase everyone's belief
(29:20):
and aspirations that we actuallycan do something about it.
Violence becomes more, availableto people as a option when
people feel like they have noother options to engage in.
We've gotta think about how dowe erect the infrastructure that
keeps people participating atthe table so that they don't
choose violence as the way todeal with their anxiety. And to
(29:41):
me, that's the work.
That's the programming. That'sthe sermons that need to be
preached. I'm not looking to thefederal government or the state
government to erect theinfrastructure to bring people,
together across difference. Ithink that's always been the
work of the people for thepeople. And I think, in the same
way that we saw people from thepersecuted and preventive
quadrants in Birmingham,Alabama, in Selma, Alabama,
(30:03):
Montgomery, Alabama widen thecircle and help save the soul of
the country.
Those were Christian people.Doctor King and Joanne Robinson
and mother Rosa Parks andClaudette Colvin, they didn't
wait for the government to setthe direction as to where they
wanted to go. They met in theirchurch. They met in the beauty
salons, and they set thedirection themselves. And all of
us are benefiting right now fromthe leadership that they gave.
(30:26):
My question is, a 100 years fromnow, what's the legacy that all
of us right now that arelistening, that are watching
this, what's the legacy we'releaving that future generations
will be able to point to us andsay, at a point when they
thought that the country wascoming apart, there were some
people who loved God and lovedeach other and made a commitment
to keep it together.
Marcus Goodyear (30:45):
Man, that is a perfect place to end.
Camille Hall-Ortega (30:48):
Yes.
Marcus Goodyear (30:48):
It's powerful. Powerful.
Camille Hall-Ortega (30:49):
Yeah.
Marcus Goodyear (30:50):
Ben, thank you so much for being with us today.
You have been listening toEchoes podcast, and we
appreciate you being here withus. Thanks, Ben.
Camille Hall-Ortega (31:00):
The Echoes Podcast is written and produced
by Marcus Goodyear, RobStennett, and me, Camille
Hall-Ortega. It's edited by RobStennett and Kim Stone. Our
executive producers are PattonDodd and David Rogers. Special
thanks to our guest today, BenMcBride. The Echoes Podcast is a
production brought to you by theH E H.E.Butt Foundation.
You can learn more about ourvision and mission at
hebfdn.org.
Where are you from? The standard conversation
starter is a hard one for me. Mydad was in the Air Force. We
moved 10 times as I was growingup. US census data shows that
Americans move 11 times in theirlifetime.
Eleven times on average, we willchoose a new community to live
in. It's not an easy thing todo. I mean, I should know. Every
(00:24):
time I moved, I had to figureout where I belonged again. I
had to rediscover community.
And different communities havedifferent rules about who
belongs and who doesn't. Therules in Oklahoma are different
from the rules in Alabama orColorado or Texas. And figuring
out those rules, finding ourplace in a community, even just
introducing ourselves to otherpeople, it's tricky. Too often,
(00:48):
a neighborhood isn't a communityto belong. It's just a place to
live.
Too often a neighbor is just theperson who happens to live next
door, so we find belonging at aa new workplace or a new church
or in other ways. And this isn'tthe way we want things to be. We
want the American dream with thefront porch, and the picket
(01:09):
fence, and the neighborhoodbarbecues. We want real
community. How do we find it?
And what responsibility, if any,do we have to help others find
their community and their placeof belonging? From the H.E.Butt
Foundation, I'm Marcus Goodyear,and this is The Echoes Podcast.
Our guest today is Reverend BenMcBride, internationally
(01:30):
recognized faith leader,activist, and sought after
speaker, CEO of the EmpowerInitiative in Oakland,
California, and recent author ofTroubling the Water. In 2008,
Ben moved his family to EastOakland because he wanted to
live in the same neighborhood asthe young people he was serving
on that side of town. Tounderstand their needs and their
community to serve them better,he became their neighbor.
(01:53):
Literally. It may not seem likesuch a big deal, except for one
thing. His new neighborhood hada nickname, The Kill Zone. I'm
here today with my co-host,Camille Hall-Ortega. How are
you, Camille?
Camille Hall-Ortega (02:05):
Doing well. I'm excited for today's episode
for sure.
Marcus Goodyear (02:09):
Me too. Me too. Ben, you moved to a neighborhood
called the kill zone with yourfamily. Why would you do that?
Ben McBride (02:17):
Well, you know, I have had many moments of
thinking about that myself. Ithink I was responding to a
moment that was in front of mewithout having a lot of clarity
about the many moments that weregoing to come after. But the
moment that was in front of mewas that I was a faith leader in
the city, did not feel that Iwas responsive to the highest
(02:41):
degree of pain that washappening in the city. And and
if I'm, you know, absolutelyhonest, I would say I think
there also were some messianickind of ideas that I had about
what I was gonna be able tobring to the story, and so I
probably was also putting on alittle bit of my Batman costume.
I've since retired that, but ifI'm honest, that probably was a
(03:02):
part of it as well.
Camille Hall-Ortega (03:04):
It sounds like you, obviously, with most
things in life, found some prosand cons. Would you would you do
it again?
Ben McBride (03:12):
Wow. Would I do it again? I think I would do it
again, but I think I would do itdifferently. I feel like I've
learned a lot, you know, almost20 years since that move, and I
do believe that my presencethere helped really contribute
in a significant and meaningfulway to the saving of the lives
(03:33):
of others. And so I would dothat again.
What I would do differently wasto have more awareness around
the impact on my wife, on mychildren, and not have
disappeared their needs asquickly as I did. There's
actually a, psychological termfor it called inattentional
blindness, where it says when wefocus on one thing, our brain
(03:55):
literally disappears out ofthings around us. And I think
what I missed in my obstructionspot was the fact that my girls
were going to need certainthings growing up that I needed
to negotiate, that there is alevel of honesty that Janelle
needed about the work that I wasleaning into that we needed to
negotiate. So if I would do itdifferently, I think I would
(04:16):
lean into it with a lot moretransparency rather than trying
to be, the caped crusader, as Idescribed.
Camille Hall-Ortega (04:24):
No. That makes perfect sense. Marcus and
I have heard some of this storybefore, and we share some of
your story in our Echoesarticle. But will you share a
little bit about the experience,about what it looked like to
move into the kill zone and someof the challenges that you
faced.
Ben McBride (04:43):
Yeah. I mean, when we moved in, it was the summer
of 2008. And so in Oakland,California, like most cities
across the United States, thesummer is the time when gun
violence is most of a challenge,particularly because of all the
environmental dynamics andeconomic dynamics. And so it
(05:03):
just breeds a kind ofenvironment where, people are
outside of their houses, usuallynot with all the right things to
do, and it creates a differentkinds of conflict. We had just
left, you know, a very kind ofsuburban neighborhood, you know,
about 20, 25 minutes away, andwe move in.
(05:25):
And there's just a starkdifference of vibe, of flow, of
feel of culture, of sound, ofsmell. And what I wasn't as
prepared for was the thefeelings that I would have even
about people who looked like me.I I had feelings of, fear,
mistrust. I had all kinds ofother implicit biases that if
(05:49):
you would have told me when wasliving 25 minutes away that I
had, I would have told you youwere crazy. I would have said,
I'm black.
I'm proximate to this communityalready. I pastored in churches.
I've worked at communityorganizations. But something
about shifting where I lived toa place that actually was
hearing, you know, feeling,smelling, like all of the
(06:10):
challenges that, ourneighborhood was, it created a
visceral reaction in my physicalbody. And and I think over the
course of time, I learned morehow much my neighbors were
negotiating this feeling all thetime.
And that before I moved in, Iwould show up to have a
transactional interactionwithout really appreciating
(06:34):
their lived experience. And so Ithink that daily in and out, the
daily negotiation of, do I letmy daughter go throw this in the
garbage can outside? The dailynegotiation of, is it time to
get out of our car and go intothe house after picking up the
girls from school because thereare some unfamiliar people that
I'm seeing hanging out on thecorner? The the daily
(06:56):
negotiation of walking the dogand literally pausing behind a
camper that's parked because Isee a car driving slowly up the
street. And, you know, insteadof instincts, I like to call it
my hood stinks.
My my hood stinks go up. And Isay, I think I need to pause.
And when I do pause, the carspeeds up and does a drive by
(07:16):
shooting on the house for housesahead of where I'm walking.
Marcus Goodyear (07:19):
Woah.
Ben McBride (07:20):
The daily negotiation of that caused the
level of, I don't know,adrenaline. It made me more
aware. It's the only way I cantalk about it. Just gave me an
awareness of the reality thathuman beings in different
neighborhoods have verydifferent experiences.
Marcus Goodyear (07:39):
What I hear you saying is that our neighborhood
shapes our perspective. And tosome degree, I think you said it
shaped your identity or reshapedyour identity.
Ben McBride (07:49):
Yeah.
Marcus Goodyear (07:50):
So in in this sense, you were choosing the
neighborhood. You were choosingto be shaped by that community.
Often, I think we're we're noteven choosing our community with
intentionality. So how do wechoose our communities with more
intentionality, and and how dowe choose our communities
bravely like you did?
Ben McBride (08:08):
Mhmm. I am not a champion of people simply just
showing up into an unfamiliarneighborhood and just trying to
figure it out. What we alwayshave to keep in mind is in the
same way that you have a storyabout a place that you're
wanting to enter, that place hasa story about people who enter.
Marcus Goodyear (08:30):
Uh-huh.
Ben McBride (08:30):
And so a part of what's necessary is if we're
going to really do, you know,the work of getting closer to
neighbors and communities thatare not like our own, I
encourage people to do that inthe context of community,
meaning you along with othersthat can serve as, big brokers,
if you will, for how you show upin that community in a way that
(08:53):
honors, in a way that still hasroom for curiosity, but also, is
mutually beneficial in the sensethat what it is that you are
going to gain by nature of beingproximate to someone that's
different, that that person whois different also mutually,
benefits from your presence andfrom that relationship. You
(09:14):
know, if we're gonna get closeto each other, we've gotta do it
carefully, bravely. I'm a Jesusfollowing guy. And so for me,
one of the things that's rootedin that story is Jesus did not
just send his followers intocommunities to engage without
spending ample time preparingthem to engage. I think we need
(09:35):
to get close, but I think weneed to do so in community with
others, in community with thosethat we're trying to get close
to. And I'm a strong champion ofgoing slow so that we can
ultimately go fast.
Camille Hall-Ortega (09:48):
I imagine exactly what you're describing
that, you know, it could feelfolks could feel like they were
on display or some sort ofexhibit if it's like, you don't
even know what it's like in thisneighborhood. And they're like,
well, let me come and see. Well,you don't know the history. You
don't have this contextualizedfor you. You don't know how your
(10:09):
presence is affecting thereality that you're that you
think you're experiencing.
So it's making me think of acouple of experiences that our
storytelling team does throughknow your neighbor where we do
neighborhood immersions. And sowe have, like, a west side
immersion and east sideimmersion where exactly that
(10:29):
happens. We sort of are are ableto act as liaison or broker our
storytelling team in order tomake sure that that everything's
done respectfully and ashonoring the folks that the the
people who don't live in thatneighborhood are interacting
with. And I think that's key.
Ben McBride (10:48):
You know, Marcus and Camille, I think that's the
work. Right? The work is to giveit a shot, to try to keep
getting better at it becauseit's difficult. We have been so
segregated from each other bythe notion of, economy,
identity, religion, group. Andwe've been so segregated that
(11:09):
we've almost collectively lostsome of the muscle memory of how
to actually engage with eachother across difference.
And as much as our hearts havethe aspiration, some of us are
more afraid of showing up wrongand creating more harm. Some of
us are are afraid of beingmisunderstood and the impact
psychological impact of that onus. And it can be easy for us to
(11:33):
just tap out and say, you knowwhat? I think I'm just gonna go
to the movies. I get it.
But I do think if if we're goingto get to the world that we know
we need, it's going to be usbeing willing to see that almost
as a part of our fitness aswell. Right? We work out during
the week to get stronger in ourbodies. We participate with
spiritual activities to getstronger in our spirit. Maybe
(11:55):
some of the intentionality ofclosing our proximity to
different neighborhoods is alsoa part of our holistic fitness
that grows our ability to holdcommunity together and to move
out of this kind of segregatedpast that we've had.
Camille Hall-Ortega (12:10):
You you used a phrase there that I hear
a lot in belonging work. I'mthinking of Latasha Morrison
with Be the Bridge and the likedo the work. And I think so many
people want to understand, havea desire to understand, or at
least think they do, or want tobroaden their perspective or
widen their circle of humanconcern. And and but when the
(12:32):
work comes up, it gets a littletough.
What is it what kind of work doyou think this involves?
Ben McBride (12:41):
Yeah. I I think, you know, one of the things I
unpack a lot and, you know, Italk about it in in Trouble in
the Water, but it's more so beenmy formative journey, which is
the 5 a's. So I think gettingproximate helps us grow in our
awareness. But there's a fewmore steps that I think help us
e even more, and one is reallyleaning into accountability.
(13:03):
That is a deep part of the work.
It's once I become aware ofsomething, I wanna ask myself
some deep questions in selfreflection. Is there any way
that I've been complicit in theothering or the lack of people
experiencing, you know, a a veryhuman experience in this
neighborhood, in this city? Isthere any way I've been, you
(13:24):
know, complicit in that, whetherit's overtly or implicitly? But
but let me move into somereflection and and look at
myself. There's a wonderfulauthor, doctor Shawn Ginwright,
who's got a wonderful bookcalled The Four Pivots.
And in it, one of the things hetalks about is how we need to
move from lens to mirror, thatsometimes when we see something,
(13:44):
what we do is we bring our lens.And his invitation is let's move
away from the lens and move tothe mirror. That instead of
trying to take whatever it'sreligious lens, ideological
lens, family lens, and seesomething through it, let's look
in the mirror and say, why do Ifeel this way? What's coming up
for me? And when I talk aboutaccountability, the mirror work
is about how have I beencomplicit.
(14:05):
But then after we do the work ofself reflection, so that's the
that's the step is selfreflection, is then moving into
the last three, which arearticulation, advocacy, and
activation. In articulation, wespend time learning how to talk
about the experiences of othersin the ways that they would talk
about them. So that doesn't meanthat I disappear my opinion
(14:30):
about what's happening, but itdoes mean that I get good being
able to talk about someoneelse's experience in a way that
I can actually look to them andsay, am I saying it the way that
you would say it? It's reallyabout making sure we increase
the connection with that personto ensure that I'm able to tell
your story the way you wouldtell it. And then after I am
getting good at telling yourstory, then the last two ways
(14:52):
are really about advocacy is melooking into my own heart and
asking myself, where and how canI show up for these people that
I'm growing in relationshipwith, whose story I'm learning
to tell better?
Advocacy sometimes is, how do Ihold this other perspective in a
meeting where this person's notthere? It's not about showing up
(15:13):
with, anger or showing up withconfrontation. It's just
literally about showing up. Youknow, at the end of that, to me,
is activation, and which is myinvitation is once we learn how
to get closer to others, it'sthen at that point that we can
start inviting other people tokinda go on a journey that we're
on. I'm a firm believer that weshould not rush through this
(15:37):
work and simply get a new story,get some new words, and then
start, virtue signaling andjudging other people and telling
them what they need to do.
I think we should slow down,learn how to make it a part of
our story, and then with aspirit of humility, let's invite
others to join us on thejourney.
Marcus Goodyear (15:55):
Hearing you talk about that reminded me of
the 4 quadrants in your book.Here's your book, by the way.
Oh. I just wanna hold it up.Shout out to your book.
Camille Hall-Ortega (16:02):
Big fan.
Marcus Goodyear (16:03):
But in the book, you talk about these 4
quadrants of identity, andthere's, power and privilege.
And I think what you were justsaying, Ben, is about advocacy
for people who are persecuted orwho are prevented. To me, those
two parts of the quadrant, thethe persecuted and the
prevented, feel like similarthings but of differing degrees.
(16:23):
Am I understanding that right?That somebody who is persecuted
feels blocked sometimes.
Somebody who is prevented, theyjust they don't have belonging
anywhere.
Ben McBride (16:31):
So the way that I would nuance that is to say
that, certainly, the way that Italk about persecution is people
are blocked, as you said, orrestricted from that sense of
belonging. And and, again, theway that we're talking about
belonging is the ability toco-create, the ability to have
agency to shape this thing thatwe're going to belong to.
Whereas prevention is someonewho does not have any agency.
(16:56):
They they have no access to thetable to shape this circle of
human concern that we're tryingto build with each other. All of
us are the powerful, privileged,persecuted, and prevention based
upon the scenario.
Right? And so nobody is onething. So, I know what it feels
like to have limited, access andagency. I know what it feels
(17:19):
like to not have any access oragency, but I also know what it
feels like in smaller and largerways to really be able to
influence how things go or tobenefit from how something's
been designed. When I'm in thepowerful and privileged seats,
how am I, as a part of mypractice, being very, emotional
(17:40):
intelligent and self aware aboutwho's got limited access to this
thing that I've got a lot ofaccess to and who has none.
And it's less about me judgingwhy I do have access. It's more
about me having awareness aboutwho does not. And then because
of the love that I have for allhuman beings across this
(18:01):
quadrant, it helps me shape thechoices and the actions I take
because of the awareness I have.I feel like sometimes it goes
off the cliff is is when we getinto this space of we any of us
feeling defensive because wehave power or we have privilege
or there's some sense of, well,if I have power and privilege
(18:22):
and somebody's saying I'm a badperson or I don't care about
everybody else in the quadrant,etcetera, etcetera. Who has
decision making power?
Who who really can help shapesomething? Most times, people
who've had limited access ornone at all, limited agency or
none at all, don't just wanna beincluded into something that was
(18:43):
designed by somebody else. Theywanna be a part of helping to
shape that thing that we're allgonna belong to. And I think
that's the work, for those of usin the powerful and the
privileged. Not to feel badabout ourselves, but to be aware
and to get proximate.
Marcus Goodyear (18:56):
So America is a very transient culture. People
move a lot. I have moved so manytimes in my life. If I ever move
again, it will be too soon. Dopeople have a responsibility to
be less transient or to to tryto connect with their local
neighborhoods and their localcommunities?
Ben McBride (19:16):
I think that the the opportunities that people
have is to think about the thecommunities, that aren't like
them. How do they get closer, tothose folks? But then I think
it's also important for peopleto figure out how to get closer,
to the people that are withintheir, most proximate
(19:36):
communities already. How do Itake that opportunity to, get
close to them? But then how do Ialso take the opportunity, where
I live, work, and play with thepeople who are most like me and
have conversations with peoplewho may not necessarily feel as
inspired or encouraged to goacross town.
(19:58):
Maybe they're they're stilltelling old stories about these
people across town and thesenarratives that they've heard. I
think there's a real opportunityat barbecues, at dinner tables,
not to be confrontational, butactually to be in relationship
and help, folks that don't haveas much courage to go across,
(20:19):
town. I have found my experienceof being a human only gets more
enriched when I take theopportunity to get more
proximate to people who aredifferent from me and to get
deeper in relationship withpeople who are most like me. And
so I just encourage us to takethose opportunities because the
the worst thing for all of us issegregation and isolation. The
(20:42):
more we stay away from eachother, the more that we lose the
the visual of how beautiful andwonderful we all are and that we
all have something to contributeto this larger story we're a
part of.
I was for a period, but not notanymore of calling folks out.
I'm much more of the notion ofcalling folks in. And some folks
(21:04):
might say, well, that justfeels, you know, like semantics.
And I say, no. For me, it is alittle bit of a different,
practice.
In calling out, I'm wanting topoint out to the person where
they've got it wrong. In callingfolks in, what I'm wanting to do
is to try to understand moredeeply where this person is
coming from. To speak to themhonestly about this notion of,
(21:28):
here's here's why I feel likethat, particular take is is
actually making the circlesmaller and not larger. But in
the calling in practice, whatI'm also trying to do is to
almost like a hen of sorts siton an egg and wait for it to
hatch.
It may never hatch. You know? Imean, some of us come from
(21:51):
different experiences in life.Some of us are digesting
misinformation. Some of us haveviews that are dangerous toward
other communities.
Some of that can change. Some ofit may not change. What I am
hopeful for in these moments isthat we try to figure out,
regardless as to whether theperson has a problematic
(22:14):
perspective, how do I learn howto continue my connection?
Camille Hall-Ortega (22:19):
Your take there about calling out versus
calling in, I think that's soimportant, especially in the
seasons that we're in here inour country that when politics
get involved, it can oftentimesfeel divisive. I know for people
of faith, which I know I imaginethat a lot of the folks who will
listen to this will be people offaith. We are called to love,
(22:42):
and God tells us over and overin scripture to love our
neighbor, to love our neighboras ourselves, to to love your
enemies, to pray for those whopersecute you. Right? All of
these things that sound greatand we know their truth because
they're God-breathed, but we go,what does that look like
(23:04):
practically?
And so I just appreciate thetools that you're mentioning
because these things are reallydifficult, but we know that God
calls us to them. We know thatthat I mean, even just our
golden rule, just treat othersthe way you wanna be treated,
sounds great and is super hardin practice. And so I appreciate
(23:27):
some of the tools that you areare giving us and talking
through because I think they'rereally powerful.
Ben McBride (23:33):
I'm encouraging people to really adapt or adopt,
I should say, the practice ofthe pause. You know, how do you
slow down in the face of ofrising emotion, rising thoughts?
Slow down, and make a choice tosee the person. I'm going to see
(23:54):
the human, not see the ideology,not see the statement. I'm gonna
see the human.
Now I'm gonna ask myself, Iwonder why this person feels how
they feel, believes what theybelieve. If we can get ourselves
to slow down, take a deepbreath, and actually rehumanize
(24:14):
the person because all of us aremore than our statements, our
beliefs. And I've, you know, hadfolks tell me, you know, well,
Ben, how how is it that you feellike you could be in
relationship with people thatare all across the political
spectrum, the religiousspectrum? Some of these people
are very harmful. They're toxic.
They're they're tearing thecountry apart. They're tearing
our communities apart. And I'vetold folks, you celebrated me
(24:37):
for being in deep relationshipswith loved ones who were
shooters in the community, whowere literally shooting and
taking the lives of otherpeople. So if you could
celebrate and understand mydesire to humanize them, then I
think you've gotta think about,the invitation for us to
humanize each other who may notbe shooting at each other,
(24:59):
hopefully, and they're andthey're not causing bias to each
other.
You know, the invitation is tothink about who it is that we
can become in these moments. Andrather than trying to solve all
the big problems of our countryfrom a meta level, my
encouragement is, let's figureout what this looks like in my
neighborhood, in my community,in my city. Maybe I try to
(25:21):
figure out what does it mean forthe 4 to 6 houses of the people
that I talk to on my block orthe 4 to 5 people that are in
the small group at my church.Let me figure out how to have
the conversation there and thenlet the circle keep getting
wider and wider and wider untilit could stretch out to bring in
even those that were notproximate too.
Marcus Goodyear (25:39):
That reminds me of Howard Butt Junior and
something he used to say to theH.E.Butt Foundation. So this I
wanna go back into archives fora second and actually bring his
voice into this conversation. Hewas really intensely focused on
unity.
He was intensely focused onhospitality, in creating spaces
where anyone could come into,some campsites we run as an
(26:02):
organization and feel welcome.So we've worked really hard to
make sure that everybody canaccept who we are while also
feeling empowered to be who theyare. And, so this is some advice
he gave the foundation in 1997,but I wanted to go ahead and
listen to it and, and get yourtake on it.
Howard Butt Junior (26:20):
When you get hacked at somebody or for find
yourself developing a slow burntowards somebody, the best thing
you can do is find a way to talkto them about it. You might feel
that you need to go to somebodyelse first. Don't let those
bitter feelings or hard feelingsfester inside you. If you do,
(26:41):
they'll poison you. So it's justso crucial that we get our
personal hang ups with eachother out on top the table and
try to understand where theother person's coming from.
To practice relationalsensitivity, meeting people
where they are. What that meansis that we just don't try to
bulldoze people. We are not inthe bulldozing business.
Marcus Goodyear (27:05):
Do you find yourself in the bulldozing
business sometime and having tostep back from it?
Ben McBride (27:09):
I understand where bulldozing comes from because I
think when we're stressed out,you're trying to figure out how
to relieve your stress. Andsometimes there's a tendency to
run over folks because you'retrying to relieve your stress.
But I really resonate with whathe's sharing because I think the
(27:30):
invitation is to move off of thebulldozer and to slow down and
to listen, to get in connection,to move closer. And in that,
we're usually going to learnsome things that we didn't know.
Think historically the way thatwe've talked about unity in the
country and a lot of ourorganizations.
(27:51):
You know, I would nuance that tosay, let's move from unity to
harmony.
And I was in a conversationactually on my street, in the
kill zone talking to a Muslimimam who was one of my neighbors
that moved in across the street.And we were talking about these
ideas of of unity and beingtogether. I remember he said
(28:14):
something to me, and it reallystayed with me. He said, you
know, Ben, I don't know that weneed unity, which is just the
the notion of let's all cometogether and be 1. He said, I
think we should move moretowards harmony, which is like
agreement in action.
We move towards harmony, whichallows me to be all of me. It
allows you to be all of you, butwe learn how to be it in
parallel ways that cause us tokeep moving in the same
(28:37):
direction. It's not either youlose and I win or I lose and you
win. There is a way for us tomove together. We've gotta
pause, get close to one another,and do the work of moving in
harmony.
Marcus Goodyear (28:49):
So does that scale up? I mean, the way we're
talking about it here with a fewpeople, harmony sounds great.
But what about, like, theharmonic states of America? Is
that does that make sense?
Ben McBride (28:58):
Well, I mean, I think the only way that, change
happens is it usually startssmall when a lot of different
people, begin to startpracticing, dynamics and
community that, move outwards.Let's get some wins for
everybody in the story so thatwe increase everyone's belief
(29:20):
and aspirations that we actuallycan do something about it.
Violence becomes more, availableto people as a option when
people feel like they have noother options to engage in.
We've gotta think about how dowe erect the infrastructure that
keeps people participating atthe table so that they don't
choose violence as the way todeal with their anxiety. And to
(29:41):
me, that's the work.
That's the programming. That'sthe sermons that need to be
preached. I'm not looking to thefederal government or the state
government to erect theinfrastructure to bring people,
together across difference. Ithink that's always been the
work of the people for thepeople. And I think, in the same
way that we saw people from thepersecuted and preventive
quadrants in Birmingham,Alabama, in Selma, Alabama,
(30:03):
Montgomery, Alabama widen thecircle and help save the soul of
the country.
Those were Christian people.Doctor King and Joanne Robinson
and mother Rosa Parks andClaudette Colvin, they didn't
wait for the government to setthe direction as to where they
wanted to go. They met in theirchurch. They met in the beauty
salons, and they set thedirection themselves. And all of
us are benefiting right now fromthe leadership that they gave.
(30:26):
My question is, a 100 years fromnow, what's the legacy that all
of us right now that arelistening, that are watching
this, what's the legacy we'releaving that future generations
will be able to point to us andsay, at a point when they
thought that the country wascoming apart, there were some
people who loved God and lovedeach other and made a commitment
to keep it together.
Marcus Goodyear (30:45):
Man, that is a perfect place to end.
Camille Hall-Ortega (30:48):
Yes.
Marcus Goodyear (30:48):
It's powerful. Powerful.
Camille Hall-Ortega (30:49):
Yeah.
Marcus Goodyear (30:50):
Ben, thank you so much for being with us today.
You have been listening toEchoes podcast, and we
appreciate you being here withus. Thanks, Ben.
Camille Hall-Ortega (31:00):
The Echoes Podcast is written and produced
by Marcus Goodyear, RobStennett, and me, Camille
Hall-Ortega. It's edited by RobStennett and Kim Stone. Our
executive producers are PattonDodd and David Rogers. Special
thanks to our guest today, BenMcBride. The Echoes Podcast is a
production brought to you by theH E H.E.Butt Foundation.
You can learn more about ourvision and mission at
hebfdn.org.
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