"Depression is anger turned inward." These powerful words from therapist Bill set the tone for a transformative conversation about understanding and healing from depression. Far from the clinical definitions most of us are familiar with, Bill offers a deeply human perspective—depression as an "ongoing war with yourself" that manifests in both psychological patterns and physical symptoms.
Through the lens of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, we explore how negative thought patterns trap us in cycles of depression. The "shoulds" we impose on ourselves, catastrophic thinking, and the belief that nothing will ever change form the foundation of depression's grip. Bill shares how these patterns can be disrupted through several powerful interventions, including letter-writing (with the therapeutic ritual of burning the letters afterward), the Gestalt empty chair technique, and a fascinating exercise involving your non-dominant hand that literally rewires neural pathways.
The conversation takes unexpected turns as we discuss how COVID-19 created a perfect storm for depression by forcing people to confront years of unprocessed emotions. We examine the surprising power of changing how we refer to people who trigger us—replacing emotionally-charged names like "Mom" or "Dad" with their actual first names creates psychological distance and helps reclaim personal power. This leads to a profound redefinition of power itself: "The more options you have, the more powerful you are."
Perhaps most compelling is the discussion about gratitude as an intervention for depression. Not as a superficial platitude but as a deliberate practice that shifts our focus from what's missing to what's present. From Viktor Frankl's insights about finding freedom even in the most harrowing circumstances to the ongoing challenge of taking responsibility for our mental health, this conversation offers both compassionate understanding and practical wisdom for anyone touched by depression—whether personally or through someone they love.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So I need to hear the caveats on that too.
All right, how long?
I think what that podcastperson was getting at was.
You'll eventually talk yourselfout.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Hello Bill, it's so nice to have you on my show
today.
Thank you Absolutely.
Thank you for accepting myinvitation.
It's honestly an honor to behere with you.
I love your work.
I love what you've done forpeople in general.
I think being a therapist issuch a honorable career, very
(00:42):
noble, and I'm very happy to sitwith you today and talk about
depression.
Are you excited?
Yes, so depression is something.
I think that's that word, thatterm is misused so much.
I mean, as soon as someone'sfeeling a little down, less of
(01:05):
appetite or energy, immediatelythey'll fall into.
Like I had depression, I haddepression.
So, other than from what theDSM says, what depression is,
I'd love to know what's yourhumanly perspective as a
therapist.
Well, depression is yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Well, depression is yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
So, I.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
I like the definition that depression is anger turned
inwards.
Yes, that one's very good.
I mentioned that to somebodyPowerful, yeah, and it groups
and they're like oh, I neverheard that before.
Yeah, you're hating yourselfabout something that happens.
(01:46):
Another good one that I like isthat we're living in the past.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
So when we're depressed, we're worried about
whatever it was three days ago.
Why didn't I choose this way?
Why didn't I choose that way?
And then another one.
Now that I do cognitivebehavioral therapy and CBT is
(02:13):
going to want to look at thethoughts always.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Correct.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
So frequently people think that they cannot change
anything or everything's goingto remain exactly the same for
the rest of my life.
I will always be stuck in thissituation.
No, that's not necessarily true, and we have to learn to let go
of the past and move forward.
There's physiological thingsthat happen in the brain too.
(02:40):
When we get very depressed oranxious, anxiety especially will
flood the brain with cortisoland then the brain shuts down
and we, you know, fear of testsis a great one, you know you get
so afraid of taking the test.
The day of you can't rememberanything that you studied
(03:00):
because your brain, yourhippocampus, is saturated with
cortisol.
So there's some physiologicalthings going on in the brain,
but from a CBT, which we have tobe aware of.
But from a CBT perspective,it's the thoughts that we're
thinking that are leading us tothese conclusions and these
(03:21):
feelings, and frequently it'sgoing to be shoulds we're
shooting all over ourselves, asI said yes, so the rabbi said
you're shooting all overyourselves.
It's changed.
We want to change a should toprefer.
So instead of saying youshouldn't do that or I should
have chosen this, I want to sayI would prefer you know, if, if
(03:46):
my girlfriend flattens thecredit card every time she goes
to the store and I say youshouldn't do that, I want to
change it to I'd prefer if youdidn't flatten the credit card.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
And it softens it somewhat.
Living in the past, anger atyourself and assuming that
nothing's going to change, andhaving some really negative
thoughts that are just puttingyou into a funk, and then they
can take on physiologicalmanifestations you don't feel
like exercising, you don't feellike talking to anybody else and
(04:20):
it just creates a wholeassociated associations of
complexities.
You know make it very difficult.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Do you think that, or do you have you kind of noticed
this that after COVID,depression just was on such a
rise?
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Yeah, I think we even talked a little bit that you
know, my business explodedduring COVID.
Yeah, you know absolutely.
And we look at what happened.
I mean, just walking down thestreet people were staying 15
feet away and that was thepolite thing to do stay the hell
(05:07):
away from everybody else 15 to6 to 15 feet and consequently
everybody's in their bubble,they're not associating, and
then they're home and, yeah,exponentially went up.
So absolutely, covid did nothelp us.
We learned a lot, but yeah, thedepression went up.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
I'll add to that that , yes, the social aspect of
being so isolated, and all ofthat definitely contributed.
But I also have this, thesethoughts of how here in America
we're just, we're so used toworking so much and not really
(05:50):
having time to really reflect onour day, reflect on our week.
There's, I feel like asAmericans, we are so used to
working, that thinking andfeeling is not really permitted.
It's not permitted.
Absolutely that thinking andfeeling is not really permitted.
It's not permitted Absolutely,and so when COVID hit, I feel
(06:13):
like people had so much time toreally process years of work and
years of family life that theywere just overwhelmed with
emotions.
I mean, do you kind of agreewith that Totally.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
What are your thoughts about that?
And we weren't set up to dealwith them.
You know, we don't.
We weren't taught, we weren'ttaught, we weren't taught.
So we're, we're sort ofoperating out of our.
Yeah, we were not ready forCOVID at all, it was just yeah,
(06:43):
yeah, it was a mess, and wedon't have the training.
I think we've gotten a lotbetter.
Therapy has certainly beenpromoted in the media I'm not a
fan of the media, but it hasbeen promoted and in general,
and the stigma a lot of thestigma though not in every
community, as you know, but youknow a lot of, a lot of the
(07:06):
stigma is going away and that'sreally good.
It just helps sometimes to talkabout it and not feel alone.
You know that's another one.
Depression is you feel likeyou're the only person in the in
the world with that problemproblems.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Yeah, bill.
Do you think that depression iscould be like hereditary?
Speaker 1 (07:28):
it's genetics or it could be.
So tell us a little bit aboutthat.
So there's I don't know thatwe've identified this per se,
but there's one of the thingsthat we'll ask on a, on a, on a.
And one of the things thatwe'll ask on an intake
assessment is has anybody inyour family been diagnosed?
(07:49):
Family history, yeah, we willhave a predisposition to it.
So if there's schizophrenia inthe family, if there's
depression in the family I'mIrish-Norwegian on my mother's
(08:10):
side and there was, you know,the Norwegian some of it has to
do with seasonal affectivedisorder, but the you know, the
Norse have a history of someserious depression and it
absolutely is genetic andhereditary and that the way you
were raised, you know.
Um, so yeah, there's.
I don't think the science hascaught up to.
(08:31):
Oh, he's got the gene fordepression yeah, because there's
no research on that.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
I know that there's never been any research and
gabar machas actually talkedabout this when I was at one of
his seminars.
That schizophrenia.
Yes, we have actual evidence,but there's no actual evidence
that depression is you know,there's a predisposition of
someone being depressed.
There's just no studies likethat.
(08:56):
So I would love to see seestudies.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
On the genetic side.
Now there's a study what arecall it?
I forget the name of the study.
I think it was put out byKaiser a long time ago, but it
showed that traumas in the home.
It's a 10-question assessmentand it's a relatively common
name which I'm spacing on, but Idid a little presentation on it
(09:19):
for my master's program.
But if you've got drugs abuse,violence in the home, so
socially speaking, those are preindicators with a high degree
(09:41):
of certain like an 85 to 90%certainty that yeah, there was
violence in your home, there wasdrug abuse, there was sexual
abuse, there is a very goodlikelihood that you're going to
develop mental healthcomplications later in life.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Yeah, you said something earlier and I love
that because I agree with thatthat depression is anger turned
inward, so not expressedemotions.
I'd like to talk about that alittle bit because I think that
there's definitely.
Express.
Expressing yourself is such anessential part of being a human
(10:19):
being, but people there'scertain people that really
haven't learned how to expressthemselves, so they lock it in.
So what are some ways you thinkthat people can express their
anger?
What are some healthy angerexpressions?
Speaker 1 (10:37):
I love letters.
You do.
Oh, I love, I think, a letterto whoever you're angry with and
writing it longhand.
Old school script.
They don't teach that in theschool so much anymore, but
script is very good for it, butI prefer it over typing.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Writing physically writing.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Physically writing because I think it's an organic
thing from the brain to the handand um writing it out, and then
what I have my clients do isburn the letter and dowsing
shamanistic right yeah very.
My daughter said that's a spelllike that's a therapeutic
intervention, what are youtalking about?
But use it very shamanistic andyou could speak into it and say
(11:29):
I release you and toss it intothe earth and you've got earth,
water, fire and air.
You know my Wiccan clients lovethat and Christmas will go
along with it too if it getsthem.
Well, but the act of burningthe letter expressing we need to
be heard In person.
(11:52):
I love the gestalt technique ofthe empty chair.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Oh, that's my favorite.
Yeah, it's so good.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Yeah, and it's so good.
It's so weird and people lookat you and they're like I'm
supposed to talk to the.
Yeah, talk to the chair.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
And they always wind up wanting to talk to me.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
They don't tell me.
Tell Uncle Joe, he's in thechair, but he died 15.
Yeah, I know, tell him.
And that act of expression isphenomenal, right, and that's
the release that you're talkingabout.
So not being heard is awful.
(12:32):
I don't have any data orstatistics to go into it, but I
know it's a common theme andthat's one of the reasons why
therapy works, because youtherapos, you get it out and you
speak to somebody who isunderstanding and listening and
(12:52):
validating, and that's socrucial in today's world.
But you're absolutely correct,it's the expression of it and
not necessarily really to theperson who caused the pain.
So if your mother causedsomething, and telling mom how
(13:15):
you feel might really actuallybe counterproductive.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
But I'll have them do an empty chair in session with
mom.
Mom never heard it, but myclient feels so much better
having gotten it off their chest.
Having said that, so thatexpression, and sometimes it
gets a little rough around theedges and they're yelling and
crying, but that's, that'sactually better for the therapy,
(13:42):
you know, just let it all out.
So being heard is a very bigthing.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Oh, 100%.
And you know also all thephysical dilemmas that come with
keeping anger inside.
I mean, the autoimmune diseaserates are insane among women.
Women have such I mean we aswomen, I think you know, and I
think it varies from culture toculture.
(14:08):
But you're Indo-Europeans,middle Easterns.
I mean we've been taught to notreally be okay expressing
ourselves, because girls are notsupposed to yell, girls are not
supposed to scream, girls arenot supposed to get angry.
So you're taught this and thenall your life, anyone who has
really triggered you, insultedyou, disrespected you.
(14:30):
You're just supposed to swallowall of that.
And here you are, at age 33,and you're experiencing like
thyroid issues and you're likewhat is, what is this?
What's going on?
So the body talks totally so.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
The, the classic book on that is.
I'm looking at it in mybookcase.
The Body Keeps the Score byBessel Bumer Colt.
It's gold, it's heavy.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
It is heavy, but it is gold Heavy gold.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Yeah, it's gold and you can share and a lot of lay
people have shared.
You know, I read a book onetime.
It's good stuff.
So the physiological componentsof what happens from the
depression, or holding it in, ornot expressing yourself, are
extreme, yeah, I agree.
So I see that and I'll do ageneral overview when I'm taking
(15:22):
, you know, doing an intake.
How's your sleep?
Are you exercising?
What's your you know?
Bring all those things up andcause those are tells.
Those are indicators ofdepression or real stress.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Yeah, you know one thing I, as I was, I was talking
to you.
One thing that I remembered wetalked about is this power over
you, as a certain person thathas made you angry, that has
power over you and you hadmentioned, you know, what I like
(15:58):
is changing that person's namein the phone.
So if you have, and I love thisintervention, can we call it an
intervention?
Speaker 1 (16:07):
Yeah, no, it absolutely is.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
It's so, oh my God, it's just so liberating and it's
it feels so nice.
So, and I want to I want tokind of bring this up to the
audience that if there'ssomebody who has ever triggered
you, bill's number oneintervention is if that person
has a certain power over you,like, let's just say, a mom or a
dad, and you have a reallydysfunctional relationship with
(16:32):
your parent, you change theirname from mom to dad, to their
actual name.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Their actual first name yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
So their first name, so talk to us about that.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
So I'm 64 years old and if I say, mommy, I'm seven,
I feel it.
I'm feeling it right now.
I'm like, oh, you know, andI've got-.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
I say mommy Bill, I still say mommy.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
So I go right back and what my clients will tell me
is I said so, you got a cellphone.
You're still communicating withmom or dad.
Yeah, okay, what are they onyour phone?
It says mom.
So when the text shows up itsays mom or dad.
I said change it to Joe orMarie or whatever their name is.
(17:18):
And Joe's calling again.
Right, oh yeah, denise iscalling again.
Okay, yeah, you know, we'lldeal, because it gives us
distance and it causes it,forces it, because the the pet
name of mom, it's a nicknamethat you know.
(17:39):
It's the kid sort of mouths it,that's like.
His first word is mom, you.
You know, it's just kind ofstumbles out and when we say
that it's triggering impulses inthe brain, it's running a
program.
So if you don't want themliving in your brain, if in your
mind, change the name on thetenant mailbox down below and
(18:04):
put their first name and startto, you don't have to do it to
them in person, you don't haveto call mom, you know.
Diane or something, but it doeshelp for the phone and I'm glad,
glad you remembered that.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Yeah, that's a it's a good one.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Yeah, it really really works and people love it.
And and if there's resistances,so therapeutically, if there's
resistance, I'm like, okay, whydon't you want to do it?
What's going on?
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Yeah, can you, and I love it so much because it
really does allow the person toreally get their power back, and
part of depression is feelingpowerless, you know right,
that's where that.
I love that yeah just that,that hopelessness and that
helplessness it's, it's a senseof powerless, like I'm powerless
(18:54):
, I don't know what to do, butin reality you're not, you're
not powerless, you just have tokind of connect with your true
power, your essence againabsolutely so I've changed um, I
love changing definitions.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
So definition of mom changes to marie or whatever,
but powerless.
So if we say you are powerful,we have a impression of somebody
with, you know, big muscles, orsomebody with a lot of money or
political power.
But in therapy, what I want usto do is change the definitions.
(19:32):
The more options you have, themore powerful you are.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
That's right, right so it's very so.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Another kind of one of the cognitive behavioral
therapy thinking errors is allor nothing, thinking black or
white, yes or no, good or bad.
But really the world is shadesof gray and and you have options
in each, in each eventuality,you can choose, you can choose
(20:08):
and when you, when you have waysto to to treat a problem,
you're not painted in the corneror, you know, cornered.
Yeah, and now you have gottenyour power back because I have
option a, I have option b and Ihave option c and uh, that is uh
very wonderful.
So I I love the ability wedon't have to respond the same
way to everything.
You know you can choose, youcan pick and choose.
(20:28):
You don't have to go.
We don't go nuclear in war, youknow.
We have, we have graduatedresponses in the military.
So yeah, and those areeffective in everyday life day
(20:49):
life.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
So I love that definition.
Yeah Well, what do you thinkabout gratefulness and being
grateful?
I mean so this is a lot ofpeople, a lot of influencers, a
lot of doctors, psychologiststalk about this, but there's
people that are just in such adeep, dark situation of
depression that they really it'sdifficult for them to reach for
that gratefulness Like, oh,just be grateful, you're at
(21:09):
least able to get up, you'reable to see, you're able to
breathe.
What are your thoughts aboutthat?
Because, that's, that's a.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Yeah.
So gratitude is a big one and Iknow it's a hot button for
influencers and people like thatbig one, and I know it's a hot
button for influencers andpeople like that.
Um, when I would lead groups ata psychiatric hospital, I would
talk about gratitude and um, Iremember I have high blood
pressure so I would have to gosee my doctor every three months
and get checked and I'm like,oh man, I don't want to have to
(21:39):
do this.
And I got to show up for ablade, I got to pay time off and
I bitch and moan and complain.
And then I remembered tellingthe people in the group, the
patients, let's have gratitudeabout things.
I thought, well, why aren't youdoing it, butthead, wow you
were called out.
Huh, I called myself out andwhat I did was I started to say
(22:03):
at least I get to go see adoctor for high blood pressure.
Oh, so you're not going along,and in any subsequent one you
can start to look at theadvantages.
Yeah, oh, it's a hassle, oh,it's a hassle, you have to go to
the doctor.
At least get to go to thedoctor.
(22:24):
You know, and I and I don'tlike that.
You know that's a first worldproblem.
Yeah, but it's having gratitudeand it changes If you start it
right from the get-go, from whenyou wake up.
It can change your day from theminute your foot hits the floor
.
Yeah, I know, I see it on yourface.
(22:45):
So, exactly, so I use it.
I need to listen to it moreoften.
I'm gonna go query myself laterin the day.
You know you didn't.
I were talking about, um, youknow, gratitude where, because
we can always show more and Ifound it to be extraordinarily
effective instead of, you know,bitching about something,
(23:07):
complaining, whining Okay,butthead, you know.
So this guy shows up, okay, andshow a little more gratitude.
You know, when he shows up, Ihave to change and I usually
that's where.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
That's, that's what you just said.
I have to be more and recognizeand see.
For me, that's the beginning ofdepression is not seeing.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
What are you not seeing?
Speaker 2 (23:34):
What you have and you're constantly in what you
don't have, why what I don'thave, what I didn't have I could
have had.
Why I don't have what I didn'thave I could have had, why I did
it.
So it's this constantcomplaining of bickering and
just not really seeing what's infront of you.
(23:55):
You're always seeing whathappened and what could happen.
You're always going to why.
It's just this constantcomplaint.
Yeah, that for me, that's,that's the beginning of even if,
even if there's traumas in thepicture.
I mean, I don't know a singleperson that doesn't have trauma
in their life, and if you don't,you probably will, because it's
(24:15):
part of life.
You know, something happens,something comes up for everyone,
but it's always this going backto why, why?
Why this constant complaint?
And that is the beginning ofwar.
Yeah, War with yourself.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Yeah, why don't I have?
I should have this.
Why does this?
Speaker 2 (24:41):
happen.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Yeah and yeah.
And you know, if you look atNot to get all evangelical on us
, but if you look at the waythat Jesus fed the 5,000, yes,
we love that.
By the way, we're all aboutJesus here, my followers, all of
Us, yeah, yeah so he he lookedat what it was I think there's
(25:03):
two different ones, but there'sBasically five loaves and two
fish and then he gave thanks forthat.
And when he gave thanks forwhat we do have, then it all
multiplied.
So there's your best gratitudemiracle in the Bible and that's
the best.
And even if we just got ametaphor, it you know.
(25:25):
All right, fine, use a metaphorfor your life.
What do you got?
I got a car.
Well, it's not the greatest car.
We're not keeping up with thekardashians.
You know?
Speaker 2 (25:34):
yeah, I see what you did there you know we're.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
We're going to give joy for the what I do have and
when I do and I express that Iget out of the depression.
I changed my point of view, Igave myself different
opportunities to respond indifferent ways, and the war is
not on anymore that's right yeah, I like how you said war yeah,
(26:00):
it is a war.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
It's a war with yourself.
It's a war with youressentially ever.
Even if it's about the past,it's a war.
It's a war with yourself.
It's a war with youressentially ever.
Even if it's about the past,it's a war you have with
yourself, which translates intoexactly what the definition of
the depression was is anger,turn inward.
And it's this war, ongoing warwith yourself I'm writing it
(26:23):
down on you are yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
yeah, because it's really good ongoing war with
yourself.
I'm writing it down on you areyeah, because it's really good
Ongoing war with yourself.
Yeah, that's very useful.
And you know, sometimes stuffdoes happen externally, but what
are we doing to control thatongoing war with ourselves?
And and that's where thebattle- it is.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
It's.
It's a battle and it's okay.
It's okay for that battle tohappen, but what's not okay is
the ongoing part.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Yeah, you're going to let this war go.
We need to cease fire.
We need.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Cease fire.
When are you going to ceasefire?
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Yes, bill, I love that yeah, yeah, so good, yeah,
and and we can change it withthe gratitude, we can change it
with recognizing that we haveoptions, that we don't have to
live a life a certain way.
That's another one that'll showup in in kind of behavior
therapy.
They'll talk about schemas, anda schema is where do I fit in
(27:27):
the world?
And you know how does the worldrespond to me?
And it's sort of that Carl Jungbehind me, but my guy, yeah,
yeah, so Jung would call themcomplexes, but it's.
You know, bad things alwayshappen to Bill.
Oh, okay, why is that?
Well, I was born, you know, and, and that's narrative.
Uh, tell, tell a differentstory.
(27:49):
Uh, I like narrative therapy.
I'm not in it but I like thatstorytelling aspect because it
gets at the schemas and umwriting another note.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
I'm getting all kinds of information narrative um see
we should do more podcastsisn't it amazing it's like a
world of knowledge, like twobrains just trying to process
together, and it's just such aI'm grateful I am too.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
I'm grateful we did this today.
Yeah, now, well, I'm thinkingof clients as it's going along.
I'm thinking of clients as it'sgoing along.
I'm thinking of myself as thisis going along, you know.
So I try not to be one of thosetherapists that's pointing.
But when I tell people I sayI've got three fingers pointing
back at go like that and just belike no, absolutely Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
And I don't know why I'm so.
I think that I think that to beI'm going to use the word
obsessed because I don't have,for the lack of better word.
Let's just say I, I have thisobsession with gratefulness, and
until a person genuinely youknow how you said, you put your
(29:13):
feet down and you were grateful,it's really hard to teach a
client what gratefulness isuntil they genuinely experience
it themselves.
It's a completely differentworld, it's a different feeling,
(29:36):
and I'm getting goosebumps justtalking about it, because it
really does change all thechemicals within you.
You know what I'm saying.
It's this, this unexplainablefeeling of, and I think that the
more often you're grateful forthe little things, even it just
naturally, like God, flows inyou.
It's just in you.
You'll be sitting down ordriving I don't know if you've
(29:56):
experienced this and you justget a hit of this gratitude and
you're like God, I'm just sograteful.
I bought myself let's just sayI don't know a pair of, you know
shoes, or a coffee, or I'mbreathing.
It's more natural.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
It's wonderful.
That's also childlike in a goodway, in the most positive sense
of the word.
You know, oh, I'm happy.
You know, and when we can dothat, you're going to get those
chemicals going and a wonderfulplace to be.
You know, and when we can dothat, you're going to get those
chemicals going and a wonderfulplace to be.
You know that we're not expertsat misery.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
Yeah, exactly so, would you say as a licensed
therapist, someone who's beendoing this for a long time,
right?
Would you say who's been doingthis for a long time, right?
Would you say I'm saying this,but I want to know what your
perspective, because you're justso well-seasoned.
Would you say that gratitudecan possibly be the best
(30:59):
intervention for someone who hasdepression?
Speaker 1 (31:02):
Yeah, it depends on the person.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
You think it depends on person by person.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
Yeah, yeah, there are different reasons why I've come
across some really bad examplesof Depression.
Yeah, so I had a client who atruck had jumped the divider and
(31:31):
killed his whole family, histwo kids and his wife, while he
was driving the car, and thereain't no gratitude that's going
to fix that.
You know, there really wasn'tmuch I could say to him either.
I just said, oh my goodnessyeah.
So, but that's an extremeexample.
I do like to change thethinking.
I add gratitude liberally asseasoning in the stew.
(31:54):
So we're making a stew to getyou out of the practice, get a
person out of depression.
I'm going to want to addgratitude.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Do you think that that person I mean obviously
he's your client, but do youfeel like there was more anger
versus depression?
Oh, for that gentleman.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
Yeah, yeah, no that he was horrible.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
I have a similar story like that.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Yeah, it was at a psychiatric hospital.
He was on a 5150.
So he had thought of killinghimself and that got him a three
day trip.
And you know there was reallynothing I could tell him, but he
had the whole range of emotions, survivor's guilt.
Why me, if I had just seen?
You know he was going throughall of that, so there really
(32:42):
wasn't my.
But that way I I cherry pickeda really harsh example.
Generally speaking, though, Ithink gratitude is a major thing
that I want people to availthemselves of, because then
you're taking stock of yourassets.
You're taking stock of what youhave, not what you don't have,
(33:03):
and you know our culture in theWest is so predicated on what
you don't have.
That's what Madison Avenue doeswith advertising, that's what
television does with status.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Schools too, bill schools too.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, what you don't have.
So I'd rather take stock ofwhat I do have and be grateful
for it, and I cherish it and Itreat it well, treat it with
respect.
So I paraphrase the ApostlePaul gratitude covers a
multitude of sins.
So if you've got gratitude,that's a great first step to
(33:45):
turning everything around.
I don't know it's the only one,but sometimes people are stuck
with stinking thinking.
But gratitude goes a long wayto help that.
So it's much more of a recipeper person For me, from my
experience as a therapist.
It's okay, we, what do we wantto bring to this?
(34:07):
I mean, I want to listen.
What, what's, what's right?
Why am I talking to you today?
This is what I I don't usuallysay that, but I go.
So what's going on?
Did you want therapy?
And then I have an idea whatwould you like to talk about
today?
Uh, sometimes they lead me in aoffshoot direction, but most of
the time it's the stuff that'scoming up and and uh, that
(34:31):
they're being hit with.
And then we want to addressokay, is, is it always going to
be like that?
Can you express gratitude?
Uh, you know, um, are youshooting all over yourself?
Are you catastrophizing?
Is it black and white thinking?
Are you labeling?
And, and if I can use those,then they open the door to the
(34:51):
subconscious and then we getinto their narrative.
Well, it's always been bad,ever since I was little.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
Yeah, I don't get the story so I was um my gosh,
which I forgot the name.
There was this podcast I waswatching and there was a lady
(35:18):
speaking about anger and she wastalking about, well, the
correlation with anger anddepression but how it just makes
you into this bitter and reallypersonal personality wise, just
unattractive person.
It's not a person that youdon't want to be around, it's
just constantly just sad,complaining and you know, and so
(35:38):
, and it was really, it wasreally interesting how she was
talking about if you aredepressed and about if you are
depressed and just angry, neverstop talking about your anger,
never stop sharing.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Never stop expressing your anger.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
What are your thoughts about that?
To whom?
Never stop In general, justdon't stop talking If you're
angry.
Just don't don't hold it in,just talk about your anger.
And I was.
There wasn't a clarification asto who, but it was really
interesting.
I'm like okay, so does thisperson have the green card to?
Just?
I mean, it's kind of like it'sit's the same thing, right,
she's going to go back, or he'sgoing to go back and do the same
(36:27):
thing over and over and overagain.
A complainer again.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
And they're on one note, johnny, and, and you're
always complaining and peoplewill stop.
So I need to hear the caveatson that too.
All right, how long?
I think, what that podcastperson was getting at was.
You'll eventually talk yourselfout.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
Yeah, that's what I was processing.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
They never met my mother-in-law from Brooklyn.
I'm just kidding, I don't havea mother-in-law, but you know,
what I mean.
They, you know, we all knowsomebody that never stops with
the Kabbalah, as they say in theJewish community, and that's no
fun to be around.
(37:12):
But I do agree Well, which iswhy I like those interventions
of the empty chair.
Or I'd like to get anexclamation point on the
sentence and then if it shows upthe next day, then we can do
another sentence with a newexclamation point.
The exclamation point would beburning the letter talking to
(37:33):
the empty chair.
You know, get it out, I agree,but I don't know about never
stop talking about it.
Well that's going to be rough tobe around and you're going to
lose a lot of friends.
We all know people like that,so I do agree to talk about it.
(37:53):
Journaling One of my favoritethings is the journal becomes.
I'm looking for mine.
I think I left it over there.
The journal is your.
It's the book of what happenedto you, and the journal wants to
(38:14):
hear I've only been a therapist13 years, but I've been
journaling about 25 or 30.
And I just love it, but it'sthe book of what's going on with
you, and so I would definitelywrite about it in the journal
and and get it out.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
I'd use that as another modality.
Tell us about this interventionthat you have about writing
with your left and thentranslating it with your right.
I love this, you guys.
I want you guys to also listento this.
If anyone here is strugglingwith depression or any type of
unresolved issues, is it so?
This is a really beautifulintervention that I learned from
bill, so tell us about thatyeah.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
so I stole this from a guy named john bradshaw, and
bradshaw's written two veryfamous books um, the shame that
binds us and Homecoming, and Iread about this in Homecoming
and I've used it repeatedly.
So Bradshaw quotes EricErickson and Eric Erickson did a
(39:19):
thing called stage theory andhe said whatever age we are that
we have a conflict that doesn'tget resolved, a part of us
tends to stay that age until itdoes get resolved.
So if you had a conflict withdad at five, um, and it didn't
get resolved and you feel thatyou were treated unfairly, that
(39:40):
becomes a trauma of sorts.
Okay, so the bradshaw I believeit's Bradshaw's technique.
I learned it from him.
He's passed away now, but itwas brilliant.
But with your dominant hand,write a letter of love and
support to the child.
(40:02):
Now he actually would.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
To the inner child.
Yeah to the inner child, right.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
So what he actually has you do before that.
If you read the book he has,you write down the whole
circumstances of the situation.
But the second step in it iswrite a letter of love and
support as though you are theparent you didn't have.
Yeah, and you can sign it asmom or dad.
(40:28):
You can.
Right now, it does getconfusing when you're teaching
somebody this there, you know,because am I mom or no?
Imagine you want to become theparent that you did not have, so
you want to write a letter oflove and support with your
dominant hand to the inner childthe five-year-old or the seven
the inner child thefive-year-old or the
(40:50):
seven-year-old or the12-year-old that had a conflict
that didn't get resolved and heneeded, or she needed, a really
understanding parent, and notnecessarily what they got in
life.
The child then all right.
So we do that.
And and the other thing aboutthe letter is no fortune telling
(41:11):
you know, no, you gotta toughit out and be strong, and this
is going to happen when you're17, nothing like by microsoft at
36 or anything and then, withthe opposite hand, the, the
child writes back to you.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
Yeah, your less dominant hand.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
The less dominant hand, and the reason that we do
that is that it accessesdifferent parts of the brain and
what will happen is memoriescome up, maybe totally unrelated
, or something that'sfascinating, yeah, yeah,
something you totally forgotabout.
So it's going to be physicallychallenging to write with your.
(41:55):
I'm right-handed, so for me towrite with my left it's
physically challenging.
It's also going to be um, it'sgoing to be almost
unintelligible.
So, just as a matter oflogistics, you want to translate
it in the column immediately um, um, as soon as you write it,
because when you go to read itin a week you're going to be I
(42:15):
have no idea what I wrote.
Okay, so you write a letter oflove and support with the
dominant hand and then the childwrites back with the opposite
hand.
The best thing is if the two ofyou start conversing the child.
When I first read, I was abusiness guy.
I liked psychology, so I'd readabout it on the weekends and I
(42:43):
thought it was all psychobabblebullshit about reading a child,
until I became a therapist and Irecognized it is the trauma
from our lives that followed usin life.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
Okay, Bleeding into our lives.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
Yes, Bleeding into our lives.
And so when you have a memory,so the brain is very much like a
computer.
I'm pointing at my monitor, mycomputer.
So the computer has X and Ycoordinates and data bits.
Monitor, my computer.
So the the computer has x and ycoordinates and data bits.
Well, in the mind, in the brain, we have neurons which form
(43:15):
memories.
You know so these neurons, andwhen they fire, they fire in a
certain way.
So when you're starting towrite with the opposite hand,
you're still accessing thoseneurons, but you're sort of
coming at it from another angleand you're actually creating,
you're rewiring yourself, soyou're creating a new neuron
(43:36):
path.
You're rewiring the trauma.
It's kind of like changing anarrative Totally, and you're
(44:01):
doing it with love.
So, say, you know, dad got onmy case and he hit me with a
belt when I was five and mymother said good for you.
And then I was you know, dad,it was terrible and so sad.
But what we've done is we'verewired the memory and the way
that we access it and then westart to take, we take some of
the charge away of the traumaand we come up with new
(44:25):
narratives, new ways of lookingat it, and we're actually, I
believe, accessing that memorythe way that I liken it is.
Previously we were going in thefront door but there were a
bunch of burglars in therewaiting to hit us with a
baseball bat.
So, hey, kid, we're going to goin the side, we're going to go
(44:45):
into the second story window,we're going to go into the
garage, we're going in the backdoor, we're not going in the
front door, and when we do that,we're still getting inside the
house, but we're not going inwhere we're getting attacked.
And we can come up withdifferent interpretations.
Even just seeingneuro-linguistic programming
(45:08):
does this.
So even just seeing an event asthough you're an outside person
will change the feelings.
So if you have a trauma, youprobably remember it in the
first person, right, everything.
So, even if I just get behindthe wheel of my car and I had a
bad accident, every time I getbehind the wheel of the car I'm
(45:31):
remembering the accident, whichis PTSD, and I cannot drive
because it might happen again.
But if I take you and imaginethat we're standing on the
street corner watching you getin an accident, I've now taken
you out of the accident and I'mstill accessing the memory.
But I'm seeing it from acrossthe street and I've developed a
(45:54):
new neural pathway.
Right, so, marine Corps, I was aMarines.
I was a Marines for 12 years.
So you know my drill instructoryelling at me and I could see
his tonsils down, you know, andI remember him in the first
person, you know.
But if I imagine that I'mstanding on the side of the
(46:15):
squad bay in the shadowswatching Private Levitt get
yelled at by Staff SergeantEddie Miller, right, you know.
And.
But I see it differently and Irelate to the event differently
and it loses some of its mojo.
So, yeah, yes, yeah.
(46:35):
So I use this.
So it's a Bradshaw technique Ifound I don't remember.
I'll send you the page numbers.
I asked ChatGPT about it and Iprinted up something which I
give clients.
I'll send it to you and yeah,yeah.
And it's just so useful.
Give me something that I cangive to my clients, and when we
do it, we can, we can create ourown healing, which is, I think
(46:59):
that that's really somethingthat you want to.
You know, get at.
Speaker 2 (47:03):
Yeah, and I think I essentially that's this.
This is the obviously socialmedia TikTok Instagram podcast.
They should not be replaced foractual therapy.
You know, it's just kind oflike an example of what maybe
healing would look like, butit's not.
I want to make that clear.
But also, there's people whoreally genuinely can't afford it
(47:25):
.
They can't, they don't haveinsurance and they can't afford
it.
So that's why there's peoplehave insurance and they can't
afford it.
So that's why there's peoplelike me who have these platforms
for them to kind of learn.
So this is why I, I I reallylike it when you say your own
healing is that this issomething possibly, I mean, it's
a safe thing to do at home.
Would you think so?
I do.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
I do, depending on the level of the trauma.
Speaker 2 (47:49):
The level of the trauma.
Yeah, I agree, I was going tothat.
That was my next question thatdo you feel like this
intervention would beappropriate for someone who's
angry at someone, resentfultowards someone, someone who's
caused them pain, harm andthey're angry, and to kind of
write?
Speaker 1 (48:07):
this out at home would be.
I agree, yeah, yeah, you, I.
I think it's okay to do that.
It's probably it's cause we'reon the air.
You know, if you've got anegregious problem, it's probably
best to be with a hundredpercent.
Yeah, depending on the leveldepending on the level, but for
just healing yourself andgetting rid of judgments of
(48:32):
yourself.
You know, we judge ourselvesbecause of the way that our
parents respond Joe or Carol, onthe text right, and what we
want to do is put ourselves intothat spot of being our own
parent.
Be the parent you didn't haveright.
(48:53):
Yeah, uh, the prototypes failedus, my parents fail me, I fail
my kids.
That's great, you know, and anduh, I told my kids.
I said whose voice do you hearin your head Criticizing?
Speaker 2 (49:04):
We hear yours, okay sure I love how you are so um
comfortable admitting that.
I think that that's just well.
Not a lot of parents can,especially a man admitting that.
Speaker 1 (49:20):
Well, I'm not perfect .
We had one perfect guy 2000years ago.
We nailed him to a tree.
We didn't like him.
Okay, sorry.
So it's just.
And that's why we fail is thatwe project our own BS onto our
kids and of course they're goingto go through their own stuff
(49:43):
and only hear what they want.
So you know when I say fail, Ihave great relationships with
the three of them to this dayand they're 38, 39, 40.
So they come back because I'msaying look, if you hear me in
your head, you have mypermission to tell me to go
screw off, shut the hell up, huh.
(50:05):
Go for it, you.
They laughed and then the guy'svoice I hear told me I could
tell him.
So once we do that, then itdoes create an openness, then we
can change.
Well, here's what I was tryingto get at, the parent thinks
they're why didn't you get an A?
(50:28):
And the kid hears no matter howgood I do, I'm a failure and
that's all or nothing thinking.
Then they feel whatever I doisn't good enough.
So that's the kind of thingsthat I get.
Speaker 2 (50:40):
That's the birth of an overachiever.
Speaker 1 (50:44):
Yeah, but at what cost?
You know very, very drivenpeople.
I mean.
Steve Jobs did incrediblethings and the world is
different for us having knownhim.
He was a miserable human being.
Speaker 2 (50:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:59):
You know, and do we want that legacy?
I mean, he had $6 billion, butyou know so I don't know, Do you
think depression is curable?
Speaker 2 (51:10):
Yeah, I do too.
Speaker 1 (51:12):
Yeah, you have to want to be cured.
Some people don't want it, somepeople.
Speaker 2 (51:23):
I have a theory about that, by the way, please share.
I have a theory about that, bythe way, please share, and it's
going to sound harsh, but youknow, it is just my opinion of
it that the people who are fullyconscious that they need to
heal and are not that I don'twant to are the people who
(51:44):
really love the victim chairbecause it serves them so good.
It's just so good.
You know, strong people arevery lonely.
People, bill, yes, because wedon't have people running out
(52:04):
and I'm going to consider myselfas one because I worked.
I have enough, you know, workto kind of label myself as that.
But I feel like the strongpeople are lonely because we
don't have a lot of peoplechasing us, asking us how we are
.
Are you okay?
I mean, do you go and ask aconfident, strong person how
they are?
(52:24):
Usually person, how they areusually very rare, you know you,
people tend to ask the weakerpeople of how they.
Are you okay, are you?
How are you doing so?
So the, the people who don'twant change know that they need
change, but they don't wantchange.
Are the people who love to bein that chair because it's full
(52:45):
of attention?
I think yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (52:47):
No, without a doubt, and that's so good yeah.
Well, that's.
One of my other favoriteauthors is Viktor Frankl.
Speaker 2 (52:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:56):
Stock market is closing it's okay, I love that
book.
Speaker 2 (52:59):
by the way, I had my son read that book.
Speaker 1 (53:02):
Yeah, but Frankl came up with the idea that we have
the responsibility, the ability,and I got this from Stephen
Covey, who was quoting ViktorFrankl, and he said we have
response.
And he put a dash and anability the ability to respond.
And that is what allowed Franklto survive Auschwitz.
(53:23):
Right, it's this premise that,hey, mr Nazibag, you may have
more liberty, you get to go hometo mama at night, but I have
more freedom even though I'm aprisoner in auschwitz, because I
can choose how I'm going torespond to you oh oh, ouch, ouch
, and that's what.
(53:44):
So you know what's?
Zero once you start dealingwith these kind of people you
you're reading Viktor Frankl andJohn Bradshaw you just park ego
at the door.
That's where I get with this.
I'm just like ooh, so yeah, wehave the ability to respond.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
You're not a hostage to a reaction, you know.
Speaker 1 (54:07):
Hostage to the past.
Speaker 2 (54:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:10):
Or a prisoner by the future, right?
So you're sitting there withtwo guns at your head and you
can choose how you're going torespond.
But boy, that'll infuriate somepeople, and I agree with you
totally.
There are some people that justlove the victim because they
get.
I think Covey was even talkingabout.
A lot was even talking about Ithink it was in the seven habits
(54:31):
of highly effective people.
He talked about a lady who was.
They had a shot to cure thegrandmother and we got the
hypodermic care it was.
I don't think they really hadit, but they offered it to the
grandma.
We can give you this shot andwe will get rid of the illness
that is plaguing you.
And she wouldn't take the shotbecause the whole family was
(54:53):
catering to her.
Yeah, oh, grandma, are you OK?
Speaker 2 (54:59):
I'm telling you that's a that's a dangerous
place to be and it's a dangerousperson to be around.
Speaker 1 (55:07):
I know another story story, another quick story.
So there's a.
There's a stock market bookcalled market wizards, written
by a guy named jack schwager andschwager, oh, what was the
guy's name?
He was um ed ciccota.
He was interviewing a brillianttrader named Ed Seikota and
(55:29):
Seikota was talking about a guywho he traded with that would
take $5,000 in the 70s and runit up to $250,000 in six months.
This guy was brilliant.
And then he'd lose it all backdown to the $5,000.
And then he'd slowly build itup again to 250 and go down and
(55:49):
say Koda said I went throughabout two of these cycles with
this guy.
And then I recognized what hewas doing.
He loves.
He's brilliant I mean, even intoday's dollars, 250 grand
pretty good but he loved thesympathy that he got from his
(56:10):
family for his market lossesmore than he loved the money.
Ouch, oh, oh, sorry.
So one of the things, this isdeep psychology what programs
(56:30):
are we running that are causingthese outcomes in our lives?
Now, not everybody is ready toreceive that question, right,
but I usually say I'll put myglasses on the end of my nose
like okay, so what?
Speaker 2 (56:40):
are you doing?
Are you that straight out youhave?
Are you you're straight out inyour sessions like that, though
right, like, are you for real?
Speaker 1 (56:48):
well, my, my therapist.
It's obviously because yourwhole demeanor changes when this
guy shows up.
Hey, you got a problem.
You actually do.
So when I look in the mirror, Icall him the witness, so that's
the witness.
Speaker 2 (57:03):
That's insane.
That's insane.
Speaker 1 (57:09):
Yeah, that's insane.
Yeah, we're Running Programsand patterns In our lives that
are causing us To stay.
If you're not, I mean,sometimes Meteors hit the earth.
Okay, sometimes your car getshit, sometimes stuff happens, I
(57:30):
get it, but for majority of thetime we're responsible for
what's going on with us.
So if you don't like your life.
What's going on?
Speaker 2 (57:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (57:46):
That's a hard question, right.
And I don't do that with justeverybody.
But if somebody's been doing alot of work, right, if they've
been doing a lot of work, and Igo okay, you ready, you ready.
What are you doing to causethis?
Speaker 2 (58:00):
Why are you?
Speaker 1 (58:00):
attracting these people.
Speaker 2 (58:03):
Right.
But also this question comes tomy mind Do you think it's fair
to say that we are responsiblefor our mental health?
Because, look, look, look,victor was in Auschwitz, right,
(58:24):
and the situation that he was in.
He said you're a prisoner, I'mfree because I choose how I'm
going to respond.
That's ultimate freedom, rightthere.
So I'm going to switch this upa little bit and say that do you
think, from a professionalperspective, that we are
(58:47):
responsible for our mentalhealth?
Yes, meaning, oh, absolutelyOkay.
Speaker 1 (58:56):
You know, when you say responsible, meaning what is
responsible.
Speaker 2 (59:00):
Responsible, as in okay, you know someone has done
horrible things to you and hascaused you tremendous trauma, or
you know there's the Armeniangenocide or whatever traumas
that people endure in their life.
At the end, we are responsibleof how we're going to take that
(59:25):
and play that out in our life,whether that's going to put us
in a depression state, whetherthat's going to put us in
anxiety, whether that's going towhatever, whatever position,
whatever mental health dilemmasthat we experience from outside
sources.
Because if we're on our I meanlike look, gabor talks about
(59:45):
this right, like we're perfectlyperfect, but we're impacted by
other people Our mental healthdilemmas I mean people don't
just sit down and say, hey, Ihave a great life and I have so
much anxiety, you know.
No, it's, it's stemming fromsomething it's, it's coming up
from, it's an outside, it'scoming from an outside source.
(01:00:06):
So if we had the knowledge andthe wisdom to switch that
mindset, would there be mentalhealth dilemmas with people?
Does that make sense?
Do I make?
Speaker 1 (01:00:19):
sense, there will always be, because yes, yes, you
did.
There will always be, becausewe are humans and we're all at
different.
You know we're, we're fallibleand we fail, we, ultimately do
have responsibility.
Right, yeah, and I would.
(01:00:42):
So I worked with clients thathad schizophrenia and they in
some sense didn't have a choicein it because they're, you know,
delusions.
Yeah Right, the people their,you know, delusions yeah, yeah,
right, the people, but yeah, butthey can choose to stay on the
(01:01:06):
meds yeah right, and I wouldlook at them like this and say
so, are you going to stay onyour meds?
or what are you doing right andI and I don't need those meds?
No, you do, you really do.
And the one, the my clientsthat had long-term schizophrenia
, which they were disabled, etcetera, but the ones that stayed
(01:01:28):
on their meds that chose tostay with the meds were able to
function and and lead reasonablyproductive lives.
You know productive lives and um, so I agree with you.
Not everybody is going to beable to accept that, though all
(01:01:50):
right.
So I would really need to vetmy client and my patient, or
whoever I'm talking to, andtheir level of maturity and
their level of readiness toaccept it.
You know, I really need to knowwho I'm talking to.
Speaker 2 (01:02:09):
That's the messed up part for me.
I understand that I'm able toempathize and sympathize.
I have the educationalbackground as well to do so.
However, as a human being I'mtalking it's difficult to grasp
this idea that not a lot ofpeople are willing to take
(01:02:31):
responsibility and healthemselves.
Speaker 1 (01:02:37):
I agree, I agree, I agree and that that they're
aware of it, they're aware, andso I I proceed very cautiously
when I share that, because itwill infuriate people, I know.
Hold on to their traumas,because that's this and it
(01:03:00):
becomes sacred, you know, andit's the only thing they hear
you talk about, yeah, yeah, andtheir sense of identity is tied
up in it.
So the grandmother wouldn't getthe shot, the victims but, yeah
, they.
I agree.
Now stuff does happen.
My clients did haveschizophrenia, but they, if they
(01:03:23):
choose to stay with their meds,they can get different outcomes
in their lives.
They don't have to be wanderingthe streets, you know, uh, with
lightsabers, you know, killingmind control, you know, and, uh,
that that's what I've seen.
But but that's a thing ofresponsibility.
Speaker 2 (01:03:44):
I agree, not everybody's ready and there was
this spiritual guide I waswatching.
I'll I'll I'll try to link hisinformation when I have it.
But there was a woman who cameup and she's like I have this
tendency, and she's he's likewhat?
And she's like, well, I havethis tendency to, and he's like
what, what do you have?
(01:04:05):
And she's like a tendency.
And he's like you'reconsciously making that decision
because you're aware of thetendency.
As soon as you are aware thatit's a tendency, it's a habit,
then you are conscious and youknow what you're doing.
And that was very powerful tome, because most people do know
(01:04:27):
and most people are aware of thethings that they're doing, but
they're just not takingresponsibility to heal or change
something.
So the people that don't iscompletely understandable,
because there are people withsevere mental illnesses and
that's super.
I mean it's it's rightunderstandable, but the people
that consciously know, andthey're not changing those
(01:04:48):
people um, man, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (01:04:55):
It's a tough one.
So there's a couple ofdifferent levels.
There's levels of consciousnesstoo, though I would say most
people don't know.
I may be wrong, but I don'tthink they're going.
You know what I'm creating, allof the effects in my life that
(01:05:16):
that, to me, that's a high levelof personal growth, development
, discipline, maturity.
You know, of course yes, stuffdoes happen.
But oh yeah, but I what I see ispeople have the conscious mind,
and then there's theundercurrent, underneath the
(01:05:39):
server, very much like a riverwith frozen ice on the top, and
then the underneath, the um, youknow the uh, the current is
running at 60.
There you go.
I lost you for a second so yeah, I know, I didn't have.
Speaker 2 (01:05:56):
Uh, I don't know what happened.
Speaker 1 (01:05:58):
Yeah, you froze on one side.
It's okay, we'll talk.
So I'm not sure if you heard it, but there's a couple of levels
of consciousness at least.
Speaker 2 (01:06:07):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (01:06:08):
And so it's very much like a frozen river and that's
where everybody's kind ofoperating under, but underneath
is a 60-mile-an-hour currentkind of operating under, but
underneath is a 60 mile an hourcurrent, and I don't think most
people are aware of that.
And that's where, which is whyI, like young, young, young was
(01:06:29):
so into the subconscious hecalled it the unconscious, but
cbt will open that up right.
And what are you thinking?
What's the narrative?
I love them because theyindicate the story and then it
gets at okay, this is what's youknow, this is what's coming out
of me, but it's a high level ofmaturity to get to that thing
(01:06:50):
you were talking about.
I don't think most people areready for it.
Certainly, our culture is one ofall you know, depending on what
part of the country you're in.
Yeah, I don't want to get allcritical or anything, but you
know there's a victimizationthing that's going on.
And then there's a personalresponsibility thing, and you
(01:07:16):
know where?
Where do we choose to boy that?
This is a hot button issue.
It's like religion and politics, are you gonna?
Speaker 2 (01:07:23):
it is really hit it.
Speaker 1 (01:07:25):
I agree with you.
I agree with you, but I treadvery carefully if I'm sharing
that with a client, so I I knowit's a podcast.
There might be people going.
Oh my God, what did he say?
But if you're in therapy withme, I won't normally just share
that in the first session.
(01:07:46):
I'll, I'll wait and see, youknow, I'll throw it.
Speaker 2 (01:07:50):
Well how much do you owe?
Yeah Well, some people won'ttake it.
Well, it's understandable, youknow, and it might.
It might hurt someone also.
It's understandable, you know,and it might hurt someone also,
so we'll work with them wherethey're at.
Speaker 1 (01:08:07):
But I agree with you in principle.
It's extremely, as theChristians would say, it's
extremely convicting.
So as you brought that up, Iwas like boy.
I was looking in the mirror atmyself yeah, you got to own all
that stuff.
Speaker 2 (01:08:20):
You know when I was it's.
It's when I was doing mypracticum hours in during
therapy school.
I did my practicum hours at BHCAlhambra hospital.
I'm sure you know that hospital, so uh, you did.
You know that hospital, so uh,you did, you did.
(01:08:41):
How funny, me too.
I was a therapist at the eatingdisorder unit for um two years,
yeah, inpatient, yeah.
So I always say I became atherapist there because school
didn't teach so much.
You know, uh, the the fieldteaches you how to be a
therapist.
But my supervisor was such atough cookie.
She was a clinical psychologistand she was a supervisor of the
(01:09:05):
eating disorder unit and I wasgetting my hours with her as
well.
Fascinating therapist,fascinating clinician.
And the way I watched herconduct her group, cause I would
lead group sessions and therewould be 25 to 30.
I mean, you've done groups soyou know how it works.
Pretty intense.
And here you are, a newtherapist leading a group and
(01:09:27):
she would just rip me apart.
Bill, you didn't do this, youdidn't do this, you didn't.
And the way I saw her, um, andI understand.
Not every therapist is likethis.
You know, therapists are taughtto be, more soft and validating
and understanding, which isbeautiful, you know.
But she wasn't like that.
She was just laying on you.
(01:09:47):
You know this is what you'redoing wrong, this is what you
did wrong, and so I kind of sawthe spark in people when she did
that.
It really woke them up.
Now again, yeah, it's not goingto work with everyone, but I
kind of like learned that fromher and I'm just like, wow, like
this is, this is prettypowerful when you do tell your
(01:10:09):
client the truth of what'sreally happening.
It's it's really life altering.
But I also agree with you onthat aspect too, that not a lot
of people are ready to hear that.
Speaker 1 (01:10:19):
No.
So I like to tell them whereI'm going, treatment wise, and
say this is where I'm going,cause I don't want it to be, you
know?
Speaker 2 (01:10:27):
yeah, surprise you know, yeah, Surprise, this is
what just grown up you know butI agree with you.
Yeah, you know, but I agree withyou.
Yeah, I didn't know you were atbhc too.
Yeah, I was there.
I I finished my school and, um,my professor, who she was my
professor as well.
She's like you know, edita, I,I think you're great, I think
(01:10:49):
you'll make a great therapist.
I want you to come to bhc andeverybody was trying to get it
because it was a competitive,you know it's, it's a tiny
hospital and you have um schoolslike thing two.
What are they called?
Uh, the internationaluniversity.
I know you know this one.
There's one in Orange County, Iknew yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:11:10):
I know which US international alliance alliance
yes yeah and oh.
Speaker 2 (01:11:16):
you know their psychology program is great.
So a lot of students fromAlliant International were
trying to do their practicumhours there and I was like, yes,
I scored something so close tohome.
This is amazing.
But I learned how to be atherapist at BHC.
I mean that was an intensehospital, intense, intense.
Speaker 1 (01:11:35):
So, yeah, so my instructor was also the clinical
director on the patient sideIntense, intense, anything, and
we saw it.
You know, we saw, yeah, so I, I, uh, yeah, so four years
inpatient four years outpatientat BHC.
Speaker 2 (01:12:06):
So that is amazing.
We were, we worked at the samehospital.
But yeah, I.
Anytime I have somebody come upand say, you know where did you
go to school, do you recommendthis field?
I always say yes, absolutely,cause it's one of the most noble
careers anyone can have.
But it is right.
But also practicum needs to bein a hospital.
That's my opinion.
I think I love practice, butpracticum you got to swim in the
(01:12:29):
dirty water first, it's not allabout a beautiful chair and you
know no, you got to get yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:12:38):
I totally agree.
It's a PhD all in itself, soit's real world.
And eating disorders are thetoughest.
That's the hardest.
I've worked with all of themand I had eating disorders.
Dr McNeil liked me, so he wasthe psychiatrist.
Dr McNeil, I'm going toleverage you so he would give me
(01:13:02):
some couple.
That would yeah, but boy, theywere tough because I do a lot
with humor and they did not know, this was a process group, you
know.
You know I'm trying to tell ajoke and make everybody laugh
and a 20, you know, with peoplethat have slipped their wrists
or their throat, and and and theeating disorder was tough
(01:13:23):
because it was all about controland they were trying to control
from.
You know, they're controllingthe food they're controlling and
while you're eating it was very, very so.
I learned a lot.
Very interesting.
Speaker 2 (01:13:38):
I'm very grateful for that experience, honestly the
toughest years of my life.
But I will never, ever regretthe years in school and the
years in practicum Blessing.
Yeah, yeah, it was.
Yeah.
Well, Bill, thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:13:50):
Thank you so much for today this was so good.
Speaker 2 (01:13:53):
I appreciate you.
Thank you so much for today.
Speaker 1 (01:13:54):
You're welcome.
Speaker 2 (01:13:55):
This was so good.
I appreciate you and I again.
I love your work and you'veread so many books.
My God, you're just like awealth of knowledge you are.
Take a compliment.
Speaker 1 (01:14:07):
Yes, ma'am, I will.
Speaker 2 (01:14:10):
I am responsible.
Thank you, bill, I appreciateyou.
So I need to hear the caveats on that too.
All right, how long?
I think what that podcastperson was getting at was.
You'll eventually talk yourselfout.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Hello Bill, it's so nice to have you on my show
today.
Thank you Absolutely.
Thank you for accepting myinvitation.
It's honestly an honor to behere with you.
I love your work.
I love what you've done forpeople in general.
I think being a therapist issuch a honorable career, very
(00:42):
noble, and I'm very happy to sitwith you today and talk about
depression.
Are you excited?
Yes, so depression is something.
I think that's that word, thatterm is misused so much.
I mean, as soon as someone'sfeeling a little down, less of
(01:05):
appetite or energy, immediatelythey'll fall into.
Like I had depression, I haddepression.
So, other than from what theDSM says, what depression is,
I'd love to know what's yourhumanly perspective as a
therapist.
Well, depression is yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Well, depression is yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
So, I.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
I like the definition that depression is anger turned
inwards.
Yes, that one's very good.
I mentioned that to somebodyPowerful, yeah, and it groups
and they're like oh, I neverheard that before.
Yeah, you're hating yourselfabout something that happens.
(01:46):
Another good one that I like isthat we're living in the past.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
So when we're depressed, we're worried about
whatever it was three days ago.
Why didn't I choose this way?
Why didn't I choose that way?
And then another one.
Now that I do cognitivebehavioral therapy and CBT is
(02:13):
going to want to look at thethoughts always.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Correct.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
So frequently people think that they cannot change
anything or everything's goingto remain exactly the same for
the rest of my life.
I will always be stuck in thissituation.
No, that's not necessarily true, and we have to learn to let go
of the past and move forward.
There's physiological thingsthat happen in the brain too.
(02:40):
When we get very depressed oranxious, anxiety especially will
flood the brain with cortisoland then the brain shuts down
and we, you know, fear of testsis a great one, you know you get
so afraid of taking the test.
The day of you can't rememberanything that you studied
(03:00):
because your brain, yourhippocampus, is saturated with
cortisol.
So there's some physiologicalthings going on in the brain,
but from a CBT, which we have tobe aware of.
But from a CBT perspective,it's the thoughts that we're
thinking that are leading us tothese conclusions and these
(03:21):
feelings, and frequently it'sgoing to be shoulds we're
shooting all over ourselves, asI said yes, so the rabbi said
you're shooting all overyourselves.
It's changed.
We want to change a should toprefer.
So instead of saying youshouldn't do that or I should
have chosen this, I want to sayI would prefer you know, if, if
(03:46):
my girlfriend flattens thecredit card every time she goes
to the store and I say youshouldn't do that, I want to
change it to I'd prefer if youdidn't flatten the credit card.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
And it softens it somewhat.
Living in the past, anger atyourself and assuming that
nothing's going to change, andhaving some really negative
thoughts that are just puttingyou into a funk, and then they
can take on physiologicalmanifestations you don't feel
like exercising, you don't feellike talking to anybody else and
(04:20):
it just creates a wholeassociated associations of
complexities.
You know make it very difficult.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Do you think that, or do you have you kind of noticed
this that after COVID,depression just was on such a
rise?
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Yeah, I think we even talked a little bit that you
know, my business explodedduring COVID.
Yeah, you know absolutely.
And we look at what happened.
I mean, just walking down thestreet people were staying 15
feet away and that was thepolite thing to do stay the hell
(05:07):
away from everybody else 15 to6 to 15 feet and consequently
everybody's in their bubble,they're not associating, and
then they're home and, yeah,exponentially went up.
So absolutely, covid did nothelp us.
We learned a lot, but yeah, thedepression went up.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
I'll add to that that , yes, the social aspect of
being so isolated, and all ofthat definitely contributed.
But I also have this, thesethoughts of how here in America
we're just, we're so used toworking so much and not really
(05:50):
having time to really reflect onour day, reflect on our week.
There's, I feel like asAmericans, we are so used to
working, that thinking andfeeling is not really permitted.
It's not permitted.
Absolutely that thinking andfeeling is not really permitted.
It's not permitted Absolutely,and so when COVID hit, I feel
(06:13):
like people had so much time toreally process years of work and
years of family life that theywere just overwhelmed with
emotions.
I mean, do you kind of agreewith that Totally.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
What are your thoughts about that?
And we weren't set up to dealwith them.
You know, we don't.
We weren't taught, we weren'ttaught, we weren't taught.
So we're, we're sort ofoperating out of our.
Yeah, we were not ready forCOVID at all, it was just yeah,
(06:43):
yeah, it was a mess, and wedon't have the training.
I think we've gotten a lotbetter.
Therapy has certainly beenpromoted in the media I'm not a
fan of the media, but it hasbeen promoted and in general,
and the stigma a lot of thestigma though not in every
community, as you know, but youknow a lot of, a lot of the
(07:06):
stigma is going away and that'sreally good.
It just helps sometimes to talkabout it and not feel alone.
You know that's another one.
Depression is you feel likeyou're the only person in the in
the world with that problemproblems.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Yeah, bill.
Do you think that depression iscould be like hereditary?
Speaker 1 (07:28):
it's genetics or it could be.
So tell us a little bit aboutthat.
So there's I don't know thatwe've identified this per se,
but there's one of the thingsthat we'll ask on a, on a, on a.
And one of the things thatwe'll ask on an intake
assessment is has anybody inyour family been diagnosed?
(07:49):
Family history, yeah, we willhave a predisposition to it.
So if there's schizophrenia inthe family, if there's
depression in the family I'mIrish-Norwegian on my mother's
(08:10):
side and there was, you know,the Norwegian some of it has to
do with seasonal affectivedisorder, but the you know, the
Norse have a history of someserious depression and it
absolutely is genetic andhereditary and that the way you
were raised, you know.
Um, so yeah, there's.
I don't think the science hascaught up to.
(08:31):
Oh, he's got the gene fordepression yeah, because there's
no research on that.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
I know that there's never been any research and
gabar machas actually talkedabout this when I was at one of
his seminars.
That schizophrenia.
Yes, we have actual evidence,but there's no actual evidence
that depression is you know,there's a predisposition of
someone being depressed.
There's just no studies likethat.
(08:56):
So I would love to see seestudies.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
On the genetic side.
Now there's a study what arecall it?
I forget the name of the study.
I think it was put out byKaiser a long time ago, but it
showed that traumas in the home.
It's a 10-question assessmentand it's a relatively common
name which I'm spacing on, but Idid a little presentation on it
(09:19):
for my master's program.
But if you've got drugs abuse,violence in the home, so
socially speaking, those are preindicators with a high degree
(09:41):
of certain like an 85 to 90%certainty that yeah, there was
violence in your home, there wasdrug abuse, there was sexual
abuse, there is a very goodlikelihood that you're going to
develop mental healthcomplications later in life.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Yeah, you said something earlier and I love
that because I agree with thatthat depression is anger turned
inward, so not expressedemotions.
I'd like to talk about that alittle bit because I think that
there's definitely.
Express.
Expressing yourself is such anessential part of being a human
(10:19):
being, but people there'scertain people that really
haven't learned how to expressthemselves, so they lock it in.
So what are some ways you thinkthat people can express their
anger?
What are some healthy angerexpressions?
Speaker 1 (10:37):
I love letters.
You do.
Oh, I love, I think, a letterto whoever you're angry with and
writing it longhand.
Old school script.
They don't teach that in theschool so much anymore, but
script is very good for it, butI prefer it over typing.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Writing physically writing.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Physically writing because I think it's an organic
thing from the brain to the handand um writing it out, and then
what I have my clients do isburn the letter and dowsing
shamanistic right yeah very.
My daughter said that's a spelllike that's a therapeutic
intervention, what are youtalking about?
But use it very shamanistic andyou could speak into it and say
(11:29):
I release you and toss it intothe earth and you've got earth,
water, fire and air.
You know my Wiccan clients lovethat and Christmas will go
along with it too if it getsthem.
Well, but the act of burningthe letter expressing we need to
be heard In person.
(11:52):
I love the gestalt technique ofthe empty chair.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Oh, that's my favorite.
Yeah, it's so good.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Yeah, and it's so good.
It's so weird and people lookat you and they're like I'm
supposed to talk to the.
Yeah, talk to the chair.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
And they always wind up wanting to talk to me.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
They don't tell me.
Tell Uncle Joe, he's in thechair, but he died 15.
Yeah, I know, tell him.
And that act of expression isphenomenal, right, and that's
the release that you're talkingabout.
So not being heard is awful.
(12:32):
I don't have any data orstatistics to go into it, but I
know it's a common theme andthat's one of the reasons why
therapy works, because youtherapos, you get it out and you
speak to somebody who isunderstanding and listening and
(12:52):
validating, and that's socrucial in today's world.
But you're absolutely correct,it's the expression of it and
not necessarily really to theperson who caused the pain.
So if your mother causedsomething, and telling mom how
(13:15):
you feel might really actuallybe counterproductive.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
But I'll have them do an empty chair in session with
mom.
Mom never heard it, but myclient feels so much better
having gotten it off their chest.
Having said that, so thatexpression, and sometimes it
gets a little rough around theedges and they're yelling and
crying, but that's, that'sactually better for the therapy,
(13:42):
you know, just let it all out.
So being heard is a very bigthing.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Oh, 100%.
And you know also all thephysical dilemmas that come with
keeping anger inside.
I mean, the autoimmune diseaserates are insane among women.
Women have such I mean we aswomen, I think you know, and I
think it varies from culture toculture.
(14:08):
But you're Indo-Europeans,middle Easterns.
I mean we've been taught to notreally be okay expressing
ourselves, because girls are notsupposed to yell, girls are not
supposed to scream, girls arenot supposed to get angry.
So you're taught this and thenall your life, anyone who has
really triggered you, insultedyou, disrespected you.
(14:30):
You're just supposed to swallowall of that.
And here you are, at age 33,and you're experiencing like
thyroid issues and you're likewhat is, what is this?
What's going on?
So the body talks totally so.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
The, the classic book on that is.
I'm looking at it in mybookcase.
The Body Keeps the Score byBessel Bumer Colt.
It's gold, it's heavy.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
It is heavy, but it is gold Heavy gold.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Yeah, it's gold and you can share and a lot of lay
people have shared.
You know, I read a book onetime.
It's good stuff.
So the physiological componentsof what happens from the
depression, or holding it in, ornot expressing yourself, are
extreme, yeah, I agree.
So I see that and I'll do ageneral overview when I'm taking
(15:22):
, you know, doing an intake.
How's your sleep?
Are you exercising?
What's your you know?
Bring all those things up andcause those are tells.
Those are indicators ofdepression or real stress.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Yeah, you know one thing I, as I was, I was talking
to you.
One thing that I remembered wetalked about is this power over
you, as a certain person thathas made you angry, that has
power over you and you hadmentioned, you know, what I like
(15:58):
is changing that person's namein the phone.
So if you have, and I love thisintervention, can we call it an
intervention?
Speaker 1 (16:07):
Yeah, no, it absolutely is.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
It's so, oh my God, it's just so liberating and it's
it feels so nice.
So, and I want to I want tokind of bring this up to the
audience that if there'ssomebody who has ever triggered
you, bill's number oneintervention is if that person
has a certain power over you,like, let's just say, a mom or a
dad, and you have a reallydysfunctional relationship with
(16:32):
your parent, you change theirname from mom to dad, to their
actual name.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Their actual first name yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
So their first name, so talk to us about that.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
So I'm 64 years old and if I say, mommy, I'm seven,
I feel it.
I'm feeling it right now.
I'm like, oh, you know, andI've got-.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
I say mommy Bill, I still say mommy.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
So I go right back and what my clients will tell me
is I said so, you got a cellphone.
You're still communicating withmom or dad.
Yeah, okay, what are they onyour phone?
It says mom.
So when the text shows up itsays mom or dad.
I said change it to Joe orMarie or whatever their name is.
(17:18):
And Joe's calling again.
Right, oh yeah, denise iscalling again.
Okay, yeah, you know, we'lldeal, because it gives us
distance and it causes it,forces it, because the the pet
name of mom, it's a nicknamethat you know.
(17:39):
It's the kid sort of mouths it,that's like.
His first word is mom, you.
You know, it's just kind ofstumbles out and when we say
that it's triggering impulses inthe brain, it's running a
program.
So if you don't want themliving in your brain, if in your
mind, change the name on thetenant mailbox down below and
(18:04):
put their first name and startto, you don't have to do it to
them in person, you don't haveto call mom, you know.
Diane or something, but it doeshelp for the phone and I'm glad,
glad you remembered that.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Yeah, that's a it's a good one.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Yeah, it really really works and people love it.
And and if there's resistances,so therapeutically, if there's
resistance, I'm like, okay, whydon't you want to do it?
What's going on?
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Yeah, can you, and I love it so much because it
really does allow the person toreally get their power back, and
part of depression is feelingpowerless, you know right,
that's where that.
I love that yeah just that,that hopelessness and that
helplessness it's, it's a senseof powerless, like I'm powerless
(18:54):
, I don't know what to do, butin reality you're not, you're
not powerless, you just have tokind of connect with your true
power, your essence againabsolutely so I've changed um, I
love changing definitions.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
So definition of mom changes to marie or whatever,
but powerless.
So if we say you are powerful,we have a impression of somebody
with, you know, big muscles, orsomebody with a lot of money or
political power.
But in therapy, what I want usto do is change the definitions.
(19:32):
The more options you have, themore powerful you are.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
That's right, right so it's very so.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Another kind of one of the cognitive behavioral
therapy thinking errors is allor nothing, thinking black or
white, yes or no, good or bad.
But really the world is shadesof gray and and you have options
in each, in each eventuality,you can choose, you can choose
(20:08):
and when you, when you have waysto to to treat a problem,
you're not painted in the corneror, you know, cornered.
Yeah, and now you have gottenyour power back because I have
option a, I have option b and Ihave option c and uh, that is uh
very wonderful.
So I I love the ability wedon't have to respond the same
way to everything.
You know you can choose, youcan pick and choose.
(20:28):
You don't have to go.
We don't go nuclear in war, youknow.
We have, we have graduatedresponses in the military.
So yeah, and those areeffective in everyday life day
(20:49):
life.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
So I love that definition.
Yeah Well, what do you thinkabout gratefulness and being
grateful?
I mean so this is a lot ofpeople, a lot of influencers, a
lot of doctors, psychologiststalk about this, but there's
people that are just in such adeep, dark situation of
depression that they really it'sdifficult for them to reach for
that gratefulness Like, oh,just be grateful, you're at
(21:09):
least able to get up, you'reable to see, you're able to
breathe.
What are your thoughts aboutthat?
Because, that's, that's a.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Yeah.
So gratitude is a big one and Iknow it's a hot button for
influencers and people like thatbig one, and I know it's a hot
button for influencers andpeople like that.
Um, when I would lead groups ata psychiatric hospital, I would
talk about gratitude and um, Iremember I have high blood
pressure so I would have to gosee my doctor every three months
and get checked and I'm like,oh man, I don't want to have to
(21:39):
do this.
And I got to show up for ablade, I got to pay time off and
I bitch and moan and complain.
And then I remembered tellingthe people in the group, the
patients, let's have gratitudeabout things.
I thought, well, why aren't youdoing it, butthead, wow you
were called out.
Huh, I called myself out andwhat I did was I started to say
(22:03):
at least I get to go see adoctor for high blood pressure.
Oh, so you're not going along,and in any subsequent one you
can start to look at theadvantages.
Yeah, oh, it's a hassle, oh,it's a hassle, you have to go to
the doctor.
At least get to go to thedoctor.
(22:24):
You know, and I and I don'tlike that.
You know that's a first worldproblem.
Yeah, but it's having gratitudeand it changes If you start it
right from the get-go, from whenyou wake up.
It can change your day from theminute your foot hits the floor
.
Yeah, I know, I see it on yourface.
(22:45):
So, exactly, so I use it.
I need to listen to it moreoften.
I'm gonna go query myself laterin the day.
You know you didn't.
I were talking about, um, youknow, gratitude where, because
we can always show more and Ifound it to be extraordinarily
effective instead of, you know,bitching about something,
(23:07):
complaining, whining Okay,butthead, you know.
So this guy shows up, okay, andshow a little more gratitude.
You know, when he shows up, Ihave to change and I usually
that's where.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
That's, that's what you just said.
I have to be more and recognizeand see.
For me, that's the beginning ofdepression is not seeing.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
What are you not seeing?
Speaker 2 (23:34):
What you have and you're constantly in what you
don't have, why what I don'thave, what I didn't have I could
have had.
Why I don't have what I didn'thave I could have had, why I did
it.
So it's this constantcomplaining of bickering and
just not really seeing what's infront of you.
(23:55):
You're always seeing whathappened and what could happen.
You're always going to why.
It's just this constantcomplaint.
Yeah, that for me, that's,that's the beginning of even if,
even if there's traumas in thepicture.
I mean, I don't know a singleperson that doesn't have trauma
in their life, and if you don't,you probably will, because it's
(24:15):
part of life.
You know, something happens,something comes up for everyone,
but it's always this going backto why, why?
Why this constant complaint?
And that is the beginning ofwar.
Yeah, War with yourself.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Yeah, why don't I have?
I should have this.
Why does this?
Speaker 2 (24:41):
happen.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Yeah and yeah.
And you know, if you look atNot to get all evangelical on us
, but if you look at the waythat Jesus fed the 5,000, yes,
we love that.
By the way, we're all aboutJesus here, my followers, all of
Us, yeah, yeah so he he lookedat what it was I think there's
(25:03):
two different ones, but there'sBasically five loaves and two
fish and then he gave thanks forthat.
And when he gave thanks forwhat we do have, then it all
multiplied.
So there's your best gratitudemiracle in the Bible and that's
the best.
And even if we just got ametaphor, it you know.
(25:25):
All right, fine, use a metaphorfor your life.
What do you got?
I got a car.
Well, it's not the greatest car.
We're not keeping up with thekardashians.
You know?
Speaker 2 (25:34):
yeah, I see what you did there you know we're.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
We're going to give joy for the what I do have and
when I do and I express that Iget out of the depression.
I changed my point of view, Igave myself different
opportunities to respond indifferent ways, and the war is
not on anymore that's right yeah, I like how you said war yeah,
(26:00):
it is a war.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
It's a war with yourself.
It's a war with youressentially ever.
Even if it's about the past,it's a war.
It's a war with yourself.
It's a war with youressentially ever.
Even if it's about the past,it's a war you have with
yourself, which translates intoexactly what the definition of
the depression was is anger,turn inward.
And it's this war, ongoing warwith yourself I'm writing it
(26:23):
down on you are yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
yeah, because it's really good ongoing war with
yourself.
I'm writing it down on you areyeah, because it's really good
Ongoing war with yourself.
Yeah, that's very useful.
And you know, sometimes stuffdoes happen externally, but what
are we doing to control thatongoing war with ourselves?
And and that's where thebattle- it is.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
It's.
It's a battle and it's okay.
It's okay for that battle tohappen, but what's not okay is
the ongoing part.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Yeah, you're going to let this war go.
We need to cease fire.
We need.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Cease fire.
When are you going to ceasefire?
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Yes, bill, I love that yeah, yeah, so good, yeah,
and and we can change it withthe gratitude, we can change it
with recognizing that we haveoptions, that we don't have to
live a life a certain way.
That's another one that'll showup in in kind of behavior
therapy.
They'll talk about schemas, anda schema is where do I fit in
(27:27):
the world?
And you know how does the worldrespond to me?
And it's sort of that Carl Jungbehind me, but my guy, yeah,
yeah, so Jung would call themcomplexes, but it's.
You know, bad things alwayshappen to Bill.
Oh, okay, why is that?
Well, I was born, you know, and, and that's narrative.
Uh, tell, tell a differentstory.
(27:49):
Uh, I like narrative therapy.
I'm not in it but I like thatstorytelling aspect because it
gets at the schemas and umwriting another note.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
I'm getting all kinds of information narrative um see
we should do more podcastsisn't it amazing it's like a
world of knowledge, like twobrains just trying to process
together, and it's just such aI'm grateful I am too.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
I'm grateful we did this today.
Yeah, now, well, I'm thinkingof clients as it's going along.
I'm thinking of clients as it'sgoing along.
I'm thinking of myself as thisis going along, you know.
So I try not to be one of thosetherapists that's pointing.
But when I tell people I sayI've got three fingers pointing
back at go like that and just belike no, absolutely Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
And I don't know why I'm so.
I think that I think that to beI'm going to use the word
obsessed because I don't have,for the lack of better word.
Let's just say I, I have thisobsession with gratefulness, and
until a person genuinely youknow how you said, you put your
(29:13):
feet down and you were grateful,it's really hard to teach a
client what gratefulness isuntil they genuinely experience
it themselves.
It's a completely differentworld, it's a different feeling,
(29:36):
and I'm getting goosebumps justtalking about it, because it
really does change all thechemicals within you.
You know what I'm saying.
It's this, this unexplainablefeeling of, and I think that the
more often you're grateful forthe little things, even it just
naturally, like God, flows inyou.
It's just in you.
You'll be sitting down ordriving I don't know if you've
(29:56):
experienced this and you justget a hit of this gratitude and
you're like God, I'm just sograteful.
I bought myself let's just sayI don't know a pair of, you know
shoes, or a coffee, or I'mbreathing.
It's more natural.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
It's wonderful.
That's also childlike in a goodway, in the most positive sense
of the word.
You know, oh, I'm happy.
You know, and when we can dothat, you're going to get those
chemicals going and a wonderfulplace to be.
You know, and when we can dothat, you're going to get those
chemicals going and a wonderfulplace to be.
You know that we're not expertsat misery.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
Yeah, exactly so, would you say as a licensed
therapist, someone who's beendoing this for a long time,
right?
Would you say who's been doingthis for a long time, right?
Would you say I'm saying this,but I want to know what your
perspective, because you're justso well-seasoned.
Would you say that gratitudecan possibly be the best
(30:59):
intervention for someone who hasdepression?
Speaker 1 (31:02):
Yeah, it depends on the person.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
You think it depends on person by person.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
Yeah, yeah, there are different reasons why I've come
across some really bad examplesof Depression.
Yeah, so I had a client who atruck had jumped the divider and
(31:31):
killed his whole family, histwo kids and his wife, while he
was driving the car, and thereain't no gratitude that's going
to fix that.
You know, there really wasn'tmuch I could say to him either.
I just said, oh my goodnessyeah.
So, but that's an extremeexample.
I do like to change thethinking.
I add gratitude liberally asseasoning in the stew.
(31:54):
So we're making a stew to getyou out of the practice, get a
person out of depression.
I'm going to want to addgratitude.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Do you think that that person I mean obviously
he's your client, but do youfeel like there was more anger
versus depression?
Oh, for that gentleman.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
Yeah, yeah, no that he was horrible.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
I have a similar story like that.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Yeah, it was at a psychiatric hospital.
He was on a 5150.
So he had thought of killinghimself and that got him a three
day trip.
And you know there was reallynothing I could tell him, but he
had the whole range of emotions, survivor's guilt.
Why me, if I had just seen?
You know he was going throughall of that, so there really
(32:42):
wasn't my.
But that way I I cherry pickeda really harsh example.
Generally speaking, though, Ithink gratitude is a major thing
that I want people to availthemselves of, because then
you're taking stock of yourassets.
You're taking stock of what youhave, not what you don't have,
(33:03):
and you know our culture in theWest is so predicated on what
you don't have.
That's what Madison Avenue doeswith advertising, that's what
television does with status.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Schools too, bill schools too.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, what you don't have.
So I'd rather take stock ofwhat I do have and be grateful
for it, and I cherish it and Itreat it well, treat it with
respect.
So I paraphrase the ApostlePaul gratitude covers a
multitude of sins.
So if you've got gratitude,that's a great first step to
(33:45):
turning everything around.
I don't know it's the only one,but sometimes people are stuck
with stinking thinking.
But gratitude goes a long wayto help that.
So it's much more of a recipeper person For me, from my
experience as a therapist.
It's okay, we, what do we wantto bring to this?
(34:07):
I mean, I want to listen.
What, what's, what's right?
Why am I talking to you today?
This is what I I don't usuallysay that, but I go.
So what's going on?
Did you want therapy?
And then I have an idea whatwould you like to talk about
today?
Uh, sometimes they lead me in aoffshoot direction, but most of
the time it's the stuff that'scoming up and and uh, that
(34:31):
they're being hit with.
And then we want to addressokay, is, is it always going to
be like that?
Can you express gratitude?
Uh, you know, um, are youshooting all over yourself?
Are you catastrophizing?
Is it black and white thinking?
Are you labeling?
And, and if I can use those,then they open the door to the
(34:51):
subconscious and then we getinto their narrative.
Well, it's always been bad,ever since I was little.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
Yeah, I don't get the story so I was um my gosh,
which I forgot the name.
There was this podcast I waswatching and there was a lady
(35:18):
speaking about anger and she wastalking about, well, the
correlation with anger anddepression but how it just makes
you into this bitter and reallypersonal personality wise, just
unattractive person.
It's not a person that youdon't want to be around, it's
just constantly just sad,complaining and you know, and so
(35:38):
, and it was really, it wasreally interesting how she was
talking about if you aredepressed and about if you are
depressed and just angry, neverstop talking about your anger,
never stop sharing.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Never stop expressing your anger.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
What are your thoughts about that?
To whom?
Never stop In general, justdon't stop talking If you're
angry.
Just don't don't hold it in,just talk about your anger.
And I was.
There wasn't a clarification asto who, but it was really
interesting.
I'm like okay, so does thisperson have the green card to?
Just?
I mean, it's kind of like it'sit's the same thing, right,
she's going to go back, or he'sgoing to go back and do the same
(36:27):
thing over and over and overagain.
A complainer again.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
And they're on one note, johnny, and, and you're
always complaining and peoplewill stop.
So I need to hear the caveatson that too.
All right, how long?
I think, what that podcastperson was getting at was.
You'll eventually talk yourselfout.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
Yeah, that's what I was processing.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
They never met my mother-in-law from Brooklyn.
I'm just kidding, I don't havea mother-in-law, but you know,
what I mean.
They, you know, we all knowsomebody that never stops with
the Kabbalah, as they say in theJewish community, and that's no
fun to be around.
(37:12):
But I do agree Well, which iswhy I like those interventions
of the empty chair.
Or I'd like to get anexclamation point on the
sentence and then if it shows upthe next day, then we can do
another sentence with a newexclamation point.
The exclamation point would beburning the letter talking to
(37:33):
the empty chair.
You know, get it out, I agree,but I don't know about never
stop talking about it.
Well that's going to be rough tobe around and you're going to
lose a lot of friends.
We all know people like that,so I do agree to talk about it.
(37:53):
Journaling One of my favoritethings is the journal becomes.
I'm looking for mine.
I think I left it over there.
The journal is your.
It's the book of what happenedto you, and the journal wants to
(38:14):
hear I've only been a therapist13 years, but I've been
journaling about 25 or 30.
And I just love it, but it'sthe book of what's going on with
you, and so I would definitelywrite about it in the journal
and and get it out.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
I'd use that as another modality.
Tell us about this interventionthat you have about writing
with your left and thentranslating it with your right.
I love this, you guys.
I want you guys to also listento this.
If anyone here is strugglingwith depression or any type of
unresolved issues, is it so?
This is a really beautifulintervention that I learned from
bill, so tell us about thatyeah.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
so I stole this from a guy named john bradshaw, and
bradshaw's written two veryfamous books um, the shame that
binds us and Homecoming, and Iread about this in Homecoming
and I've used it repeatedly.
So Bradshaw quotes EricErickson and Eric Erickson did a
(39:19):
thing called stage theory andhe said whatever age we are that
we have a conflict that doesn'tget resolved, a part of us
tends to stay that age until itdoes get resolved.
So if you had a conflict withdad at five, um, and it didn't
get resolved and you feel thatyou were treated unfairly, that
(39:40):
becomes a trauma of sorts.
Okay, so the bradshaw I believeit's Bradshaw's technique.
I learned it from him.
He's passed away now, but itwas brilliant.
But with your dominant hand,write a letter of love and
support to the child.
(40:02):
Now he actually would.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
To the inner child.
Yeah to the inner child, right.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
So what he actually has you do before that.
If you read the book he has,you write down the whole
circumstances of the situation.
But the second step in it iswrite a letter of love and
support as though you are theparent you didn't have.
Yeah, and you can sign it asmom or dad.
(40:28):
You can.
Right now, it does getconfusing when you're teaching
somebody this there, you know,because am I mom or no?
Imagine you want to become theparent that you did not have, so
you want to write a letter oflove and support with your
dominant hand to the inner childthe five-year-old or the seven
the inner child thefive-year-old or the
(40:50):
seven-year-old or the12-year-old that had a conflict
that didn't get resolved and heneeded, or she needed, a really
understanding parent, and notnecessarily what they got in
life.
The child then all right.
So we do that.
And and the other thing aboutthe letter is no fortune telling
(41:11):
you know, no, you gotta toughit out and be strong, and this
is going to happen when you're17, nothing like by microsoft at
36 or anything and then, withthe opposite hand, the, the
child writes back to you.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
Yeah, your less dominant hand.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
The less dominant hand, and the reason that we do
that is that it accessesdifferent parts of the brain and
what will happen is memoriescome up, maybe totally unrelated
, or something that'sfascinating, yeah, yeah,
something you totally forgotabout.
So it's going to be physicallychallenging to write with your.
(41:55):
I'm right-handed, so for me towrite with my left it's
physically challenging.
It's also going to be um, it'sgoing to be almost
unintelligible.
So, just as a matter oflogistics, you want to translate
it in the column immediately um, um, as soon as you write it,
because when you go to read itin a week you're going to be I
(42:15):
have no idea what I wrote.
Okay, so you write a letter oflove and support with the
dominant hand and then the childwrites back with the opposite
hand.
The best thing is if the two ofyou start conversing the child.
When I first read, I was abusiness guy.
I liked psychology, so I'd readabout it on the weekends and I
(42:43):
thought it was all psychobabblebullshit about reading a child,
until I became a therapist and Irecognized it is the trauma
from our lives that followed usin life.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
Okay, Bleeding into our lives.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
Yes, Bleeding into our lives.
And so when you have a memory,so the brain is very much like a
computer.
I'm pointing at my monitor, mycomputer.
So the computer has X and Ycoordinates and data bits.
Monitor, my computer.
So the the computer has x and ycoordinates and data bits.
Well, in the mind, in the brain, we have neurons which form
(43:15):
memories.
You know so these neurons, andwhen they fire, they fire in a
certain way.
So when you're starting towrite with the opposite hand,
you're still accessing thoseneurons, but you're sort of
coming at it from another angleand you're actually creating,
you're rewiring yourself, soyou're creating a new neuron
(43:36):
path.
You're rewiring the trauma.
It's kind of like changing anarrative Totally, and you're
(44:01):
doing it with love.
So, say, you know, dad got onmy case and he hit me with a
belt when I was five and mymother said good for you.
And then I was you know, dad,it was terrible and so sad.
But what we've done is we'verewired the memory and the way
that we access it and then westart to take, we take some of
the charge away of the traumaand we come up with new
(44:25):
narratives, new ways of lookingat it, and we're actually, I
believe, accessing that memorythe way that I liken it is.
Previously we were going in thefront door but there were a
bunch of burglars in therewaiting to hit us with a
baseball bat.
So, hey, kid, we're going to goin the side, we're going to go
(44:45):
into the second story window,we're going to go into the
garage, we're going in the backdoor, we're not going in the
front door, and when we do that,we're still getting inside the
house, but we're not going inwhere we're getting attacked.
And we can come up withdifferent interpretations.
Even just seeingneuro-linguistic programming
(45:08):
does this.
So even just seeing an event asthough you're an outside person
will change the feelings.
So if you have a trauma, youprobably remember it in the
first person, right, everything.
So, even if I just get behindthe wheel of my car and I had a
bad accident, every time I getbehind the wheel of the car I'm
(45:31):
remembering the accident, whichis PTSD, and I cannot drive
because it might happen again.
But if I take you and imaginethat we're standing on the
street corner watching you getin an accident, I've now taken
you out of the accident and I'mstill accessing the memory.
But I'm seeing it from acrossthe street and I've developed a
(45:54):
new neural pathway.
Right, so, marine Corps, I was aMarines.
I was a Marines for 12 years.
So you know my drill instructoryelling at me and I could see
his tonsils down, you know, andI remember him in the first
person, you know.
But if I imagine that I'mstanding on the side of the
(46:15):
squad bay in the shadowswatching Private Levitt get
yelled at by Staff SergeantEddie Miller, right, you know.
And.
But I see it differently and Irelate to the event differently
and it loses some of its mojo.
So, yeah, yes, yeah.
(46:35):
So I use this.
So it's a Bradshaw technique Ifound I don't remember.
I'll send you the page numbers.
I asked ChatGPT about it and Iprinted up something which I
give clients.
I'll send it to you and yeah,yeah.
And it's just so useful.
Give me something that I cangive to my clients, and when we
do it, we can, we can create ourown healing, which is, I think
(46:59):
that that's really somethingthat you want to.
You know, get at.
Speaker 2 (47:03):
Yeah, and I think I essentially that's this.
This is the obviously socialmedia TikTok Instagram podcast.
They should not be replaced foractual therapy.
You know, it's just kind oflike an example of what maybe
healing would look like, butit's not.
I want to make that clear.
But also, there's people whoreally genuinely can't afford it
(47:25):
.
They can't, they don't haveinsurance and they can't afford
it.
So that's why there's peoplehave insurance and they can't
afford it.
So that's why there's peoplelike me who have these platforms
for them to kind of learn.
So this is why I, I I reallylike it when you say your own
healing is that this issomething possibly, I mean, it's
a safe thing to do at home.
Would you think so?
I do.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
I do, depending on the level of the trauma.
Speaker 2 (47:49):
The level of the trauma.
Yeah, I agree, I was going tothat.
That was my next question thatdo you feel like this
intervention would beappropriate for someone who's
angry at someone, resentfultowards someone, someone who's
caused them pain, harm andthey're angry, and to kind of
write?
Speaker 1 (48:07):
this out at home would be.
I agree, yeah, yeah, you, I.
I think it's okay to do that.
It's probably it's cause we'reon the air.
You know, if you've got anegregious problem, it's probably
best to be with a hundredpercent.
Yeah, depending on the leveldepending on the level, but for
just healing yourself andgetting rid of judgments of
(48:32):
yourself.
You know, we judge ourselvesbecause of the way that our
parents respond Joe or Carol, onthe text right, and what we
want to do is put ourselves intothat spot of being our own
parent.
Be the parent you didn't haveright.
(48:53):
Yeah, uh, the prototypes failedus, my parents fail me, I fail
my kids.
That's great, you know, and anduh, I told my kids.
I said whose voice do you hearin your head Criticizing?
Speaker 2 (49:04):
We hear yours, okay sure I love how you are so um
comfortable admitting that.
I think that that's just well.
Not a lot of parents can,especially a man admitting that.
Speaker 1 (49:20):
Well, I'm not perfect .
We had one perfect guy 2000years ago.
We nailed him to a tree.
We didn't like him.
Okay, sorry.
So it's just.
And that's why we fail is thatwe project our own BS onto our
kids and of course they're goingto go through their own stuff
(49:43):
and only hear what they want.
So you know when I say fail, Ihave great relationships with
the three of them to this dayand they're 38, 39, 40.
So they come back because I'msaying look, if you hear me in
your head, you have mypermission to tell me to go
screw off, shut the hell up, huh.
(50:05):
Go for it, you.
They laughed and then the guy'svoice I hear told me I could
tell him.
So once we do that, then itdoes create an openness, then we
can change.
Well, here's what I was tryingto get at, the parent thinks
they're why didn't you get an A?
(50:28):
And the kid hears no matter howgood I do, I'm a failure and
that's all or nothing thinking.
Then they feel whatever I doisn't good enough.
So that's the kind of thingsthat I get.
Speaker 2 (50:40):
That's the birth of an overachiever.
Speaker 1 (50:44):
Yeah, but at what cost?
You know very, very drivenpeople.
I mean.
Steve Jobs did incrediblethings and the world is
different for us having knownhim.
He was a miserable human being.
Speaker 2 (50:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:59):
You know, and do we want that legacy?
I mean, he had $6 billion, butyou know so I don't know, Do you
think depression is curable?
Speaker 2 (51:10):
Yeah, I do too.
Speaker 1 (51:12):
Yeah, you have to want to be cured.
Some people don't want it, somepeople.
Speaker 2 (51:23):
I have a theory about that, by the way, please share.
I have a theory about that, bythe way, please share, and it's
going to sound harsh, but youknow, it is just my opinion of
it that the people who are fullyconscious that they need to
heal and are not that I don'twant to are the people who
(51:44):
really love the victim chairbecause it serves them so good.
It's just so good.
You know, strong people arevery lonely.
People, bill, yes, because wedon't have people running out
(52:04):
and I'm going to consider myselfas one because I worked.
I have enough, you know, workto kind of label myself as that.
But I feel like the strongpeople are lonely because we
don't have a lot of peoplechasing us, asking us how we are
.
Are you okay?
I mean, do you go and ask aconfident, strong person how
they are?
(52:24):
Usually person, how they areusually very rare, you know you,
people tend to ask the weakerpeople of how they.
Are you okay, are you?
How are you doing so?
So the, the people who don'twant change know that they need
change, but they don't wantchange.
Are the people who love to bein that chair because it's full
(52:45):
of attention?
I think yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (52:47):
No, without a doubt, and that's so good yeah.
Well, that's.
One of my other favoriteauthors is Viktor Frankl.
Speaker 2 (52:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:56):
Stock market is closing it's okay, I love that
book.
Speaker 2 (52:59):
by the way, I had my son read that book.
Speaker 1 (53:02):
Yeah, but Frankl came up with the idea that we have
the responsibility, the ability,and I got this from Stephen
Covey, who was quoting ViktorFrankl, and he said we have
response.
And he put a dash and anability the ability to respond.
And that is what allowed Franklto survive Auschwitz.
(53:23):
Right, it's this premise that,hey, mr Nazibag, you may have
more liberty, you get to go hometo mama at night, but I have
more freedom even though I'm aprisoner in auschwitz, because I
can choose how I'm going torespond to you oh oh, ouch, ouch
, and that's what.
(53:44):
So you know what's?
Zero once you start dealingwith these kind of people you
you're reading Viktor Frankl andJohn Bradshaw you just park ego
at the door.
That's where I get with this.
I'm just like ooh, so yeah, wehave the ability to respond.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
You're not a hostage to a reaction, you know.
Speaker 1 (54:07):
Hostage to the past.
Speaker 2 (54:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:10):
Or a prisoner by the future, right?
So you're sitting there withtwo guns at your head and you
can choose how you're going torespond.
But boy, that'll infuriate somepeople, and I agree with you
totally.
There are some people that justlove the victim because they
get.
I think Covey was even talkingabout.
A lot was even talking about Ithink it was in the seven habits
(54:31):
of highly effective people.
He talked about a lady who was.
They had a shot to cure thegrandmother and we got the
hypodermic care it was.
I don't think they really hadit, but they offered it to the
grandma.
We can give you this shot andwe will get rid of the illness
that is plaguing you.
And she wouldn't take the shotbecause the whole family was
(54:53):
catering to her.
Yeah, oh, grandma, are you OK?
Speaker 2 (54:59):
I'm telling you that's a that's a dangerous
place to be and it's a dangerousperson to be around.
Speaker 1 (55:07):
I know another story story, another quick story.
So there's a.
There's a stock market bookcalled market wizards, written
by a guy named jack schwager andschwager, oh, what was the
guy's name?
He was um ed ciccota.
He was interviewing a brillianttrader named Ed Seikota and
(55:29):
Seikota was talking about a guywho he traded with that would
take $5,000 in the 70s and runit up to $250,000 in six months.
This guy was brilliant.
And then he'd lose it all backdown to the $5,000.
And then he'd slowly build itup again to 250 and go down and
(55:49):
say Koda said I went throughabout two of these cycles with
this guy.
And then I recognized what hewas doing.
He loves.
He's brilliant I mean, even intoday's dollars, 250 grand
pretty good but he loved thesympathy that he got from his
(56:10):
family for his market lossesmore than he loved the money.
Ouch, oh, oh, sorry.
So one of the things, this isdeep psychology what programs
(56:30):
are we running that are causingthese outcomes in our lives?
Now, not everybody is ready toreceive that question, right,
but I usually say I'll put myglasses on the end of my nose
like okay, so what?
Speaker 2 (56:40):
are you doing?
Are you that straight out youhave?
Are you you're straight out inyour sessions like that, though
right, like, are you for real?
Speaker 1 (56:48):
well, my, my therapist.
It's obviously because yourwhole demeanor changes when this
guy shows up.
Hey, you got a problem.
You actually do.
So when I look in the mirror, Icall him the witness, so that's
the witness.
Speaker 2 (57:03):
That's insane.
That's insane.
Speaker 1 (57:09):
Yeah, that's insane.
Yeah, we're Running Programsand patterns In our lives that
are causing us To stay.
If you're not, I mean,sometimes Meteors hit the earth.
Okay, sometimes your car getshit, sometimes stuff happens, I
(57:30):
get it, but for majority of thetime we're responsible for
what's going on with us.
So if you don't like your life.
What's going on?
Speaker 2 (57:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (57:46):
That's a hard question, right.
And I don't do that with justeverybody.
But if somebody's been doing alot of work, right, if they've
been doing a lot of work, and Igo okay, you ready, you ready.
What are you doing to causethis?
Speaker 2 (58:00):
Why are you?
Speaker 1 (58:00):
attracting these people.
Speaker 2 (58:03):
Right.
But also this question comes tomy mind Do you think it's fair
to say that we are responsiblefor our mental health?
Because, look, look, look,victor was in Auschwitz, right,
(58:24):
and the situation that he was in.
He said you're a prisoner, I'mfree because I choose how I'm
going to respond.
That's ultimate freedom, rightthere.
So I'm going to switch this upa little bit and say that do you
think, from a professionalperspective, that we are
(58:47):
responsible for our mentalhealth?
Yes, meaning, oh, absolutelyOkay.
Speaker 1 (58:56):
You know, when you say responsible, meaning what is
responsible.
Speaker 2 (59:00):
Responsible, as in okay, you know someone has done
horrible things to you and hascaused you tremendous trauma, or
you know there's the Armeniangenocide or whatever traumas
that people endure in their life.
At the end, we are responsibleof how we're going to take that
(59:25):
and play that out in our life,whether that's going to put us
in a depression state, whetherthat's going to put us in
anxiety, whether that's going towhatever, whatever position,
whatever mental health dilemmasthat we experience from outside
sources.
Because if we're on our I meanlike look, gabor talks about
(59:45):
this right, like we're perfectlyperfect, but we're impacted by
other people Our mental healthdilemmas I mean people don't
just sit down and say, hey, Ihave a great life and I have so
much anxiety, you know.
No, it's, it's stemming fromsomething it's, it's coming up
from, it's an outside, it'scoming from an outside source.
(01:00:06):
So if we had the knowledge andthe wisdom to switch that
mindset, would there be mentalhealth dilemmas with people?
Does that make sense?
Do I make?
Speaker 1 (01:00:19):
sense, there will always be, because yes, yes, you
did.
There will always be, becausewe are humans and we're all at
different.
You know we're, we're fallibleand we fail, we, ultimately do
have responsibility.
Right, yeah, and I would.
(01:00:42):
So I worked with clients thathad schizophrenia and they in
some sense didn't have a choicein it because they're, you know,
delusions.
Yeah Right, the people their,you know, delusions yeah, yeah,
right, the people, but yeah, butthey can choose to stay on the
(01:01:06):
meds yeah right, and I wouldlook at them like this and say
so, are you going to stay onyour meds?
or what are you doing right andI and I don't need those meds?
No, you do, you really do.
And the one, the my clientsthat had long-term schizophrenia
, which they were disabled, etcetera, but the ones that stayed
(01:01:28):
on their meds that chose tostay with the meds were able to
function and and lead reasonablyproductive lives.
You know productive lives and um, so I agree with you.
Not everybody is going to beable to accept that, though all
(01:01:50):
right.
So I would really need to vetmy client and my patient, or
whoever I'm talking to, andtheir level of maturity and
their level of readiness toaccept it.
You know, I really need to knowwho I'm talking to.
Speaker 2 (01:02:09):
That's the messed up part for me.
I understand that I'm able toempathize and sympathize.
I have the educationalbackground as well to do so.
However, as a human being I'mtalking it's difficult to grasp
this idea that not a lot ofpeople are willing to take
(01:02:31):
responsibility and healthemselves.
Speaker 1 (01:02:37):
I agree, I agree, I agree and that that they're
aware of it, they're aware, andso I I proceed very cautiously
when I share that, because itwill infuriate people, I know.
Hold on to their traumas,because that's this and it
(01:03:00):
becomes sacred, you know, andit's the only thing they hear
you talk about, yeah, yeah, andtheir sense of identity is tied
up in it.
So the grandmother wouldn't getthe shot, the victims but, yeah
, they.
I agree.
Now stuff does happen.
My clients did haveschizophrenia, but they, if they
(01:03:23):
choose to stay with their meds,they can get different outcomes
in their lives.
They don't have to be wanderingthe streets, you know, uh, with
lightsabers, you know, killingmind control, you know, and, uh,
that that's what I've seen.
But but that's a thing ofresponsibility.
Speaker 2 (01:03:44):
I agree, not everybody's ready and there was
this spiritual guide I waswatching.
I'll I'll I'll try to link hisinformation when I have it.
But there was a woman who cameup and she's like I have this
tendency, and she's he's likewhat?
And she's like, well, I havethis tendency to, and he's like
what, what do you have?
(01:04:05):
And she's like a tendency.
And he's like you'reconsciously making that decision
because you're aware of thetendency.
As soon as you are aware thatit's a tendency, it's a habit,
then you are conscious and youknow what you're doing.
And that was very powerful tome, because most people do know
(01:04:27):
and most people are aware of thethings that they're doing, but
they're just not takingresponsibility to heal or change
something.
So the people that don't iscompletely understandable,
because there are people withsevere mental illnesses and
that's super.
I mean it's it's rightunderstandable, but the people
that consciously know, andthey're not changing those
(01:04:48):
people um, man, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (01:04:55):
It's a tough one.
So there's a couple ofdifferent levels.
There's levels of consciousnesstoo, though I would say most
people don't know.
I may be wrong, but I don'tthink they're going.
You know what I'm creating, allof the effects in my life that
(01:05:16):
that, to me, that's a high levelof personal growth, development
, discipline, maturity.
You know, of course yes, stuffdoes happen.
But oh yeah, but I what I see ispeople have the conscious mind,
and then there's theundercurrent, underneath the
(01:05:39):
server, very much like a riverwith frozen ice on the top, and
then the underneath, the um, youknow the uh, the current is
running at 60.
There you go.
I lost you for a second so yeah, I know, I didn't have.
Speaker 2 (01:05:56):
Uh, I don't know what happened.
Speaker 1 (01:05:58):
Yeah, you froze on one side.
It's okay, we'll talk.
So I'm not sure if you heard it, but there's a couple of levels
of consciousness at least.
Speaker 2 (01:06:07):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (01:06:08):
And so it's very much like a frozen river and that's
where everybody's kind ofoperating under, but underneath
is a 60-mile-an-hour currentkind of operating under, but
underneath is a 60 mile an hourcurrent, and I don't think most
people are aware of that.
And that's where, which is whyI, like young, young, young was
(01:06:29):
so into the subconscious hecalled it the unconscious, but
cbt will open that up right.
And what are you thinking?
What's the narrative?
I love them because theyindicate the story and then it
gets at okay, this is what's youknow, this is what's coming out
of me, but it's a high level ofmaturity to get to that thing
(01:06:50):
you were talking about.
I don't think most people areready for it.
Certainly, our culture is one ofall you know, depending on what
part of the country you're in.
Yeah, I don't want to get allcritical or anything, but you
know there's a victimizationthing that's going on.
And then there's a personalresponsibility thing, and you
(01:07:16):
know where?
Where do we choose to boy that?
This is a hot button issue.
It's like religion and politics, are you gonna?
Speaker 2 (01:07:23):
it is really hit it.
Speaker 1 (01:07:25):
I agree with you.
I agree with you, but I treadvery carefully if I'm sharing
that with a client, so I I knowit's a podcast.
There might be people going.
Oh my God, what did he say?
But if you're in therapy withme, I won't normally just share
that in the first session.
(01:07:46):
I'll, I'll wait and see, youknow, I'll throw it.
Speaker 2 (01:07:50):
Well how much do you owe?
Yeah Well, some people won'ttake it.
Well, it's understandable, youknow, and it might.
It might hurt someone also.
It's understandable, you know,and it might hurt someone also,
so we'll work with them wherethey're at.
Speaker 1 (01:08:07):
But I agree with you in principle.
It's extremely, as theChristians would say, it's
extremely convicting.
So as you brought that up, Iwas like boy.
I was looking in the mirror atmyself yeah, you got to own all
that stuff.
Speaker 2 (01:08:20):
You know when I was it's.
It's when I was doing mypracticum hours in during
therapy school.
I did my practicum hours at BHCAlhambra hospital.
I'm sure you know that hospital, so uh, you did.
You know that hospital, so uh,you did, you did.
(01:08:41):
How funny, me too.
I was a therapist at the eatingdisorder unit for um two years,
yeah, inpatient, yeah.
So I always say I became atherapist there because school
didn't teach so much.
You know, uh, the the fieldteaches you how to be a
therapist.
But my supervisor was such atough cookie.
She was a clinical psychologistand she was a supervisor of the
(01:09:05):
eating disorder unit and I wasgetting my hours with her as
well.
Fascinating therapist,fascinating clinician.
And the way I watched herconduct her group, cause I would
lead group sessions and therewould be 25 to 30.
I mean, you've done groups soyou know how it works.
Pretty intense.
And here you are, a newtherapist leading a group and
(01:09:27):
she would just rip me apart.
Bill, you didn't do this, youdidn't do this, you didn't.
And the way I saw her, um, andI understand.
Not every therapist is likethis.
You know, therapists are taughtto be, more soft and validating
and understanding, which isbeautiful, you know.
But she wasn't like that.
She was just laying on you.
(01:09:47):
You know this is what you'redoing wrong, this is what you
did wrong, and so I kind of sawthe spark in people when she did
that.
It really woke them up.
Now again, yeah, it's not goingto work with everyone, but I
kind of like learned that fromher and I'm just like, wow, like
this is, this is prettypowerful when you do tell your
(01:10:09):
client the truth of what'sreally happening.
It's it's really life altering.
But I also agree with you onthat aspect too, that not a lot
of people are ready to hear that.
Speaker 1 (01:10:19):
No.
So I like to tell them whereI'm going, treatment wise, and
say this is where I'm going,cause I don't want it to be, you
know?
Speaker 2 (01:10:27):
yeah, surprise you know, yeah, Surprise, this is
what just grown up you know butI agree with you.
Yeah, you know, but I agree withyou.
Yeah, I didn't know you were atbhc too.
Yeah, I was there.
I I finished my school and, um,my professor, who she was my
professor as well.
She's like you know, edita, I,I think you're great, I think
(01:10:49):
you'll make a great therapist.
I want you to come to bhc andeverybody was trying to get it
because it was a competitive,you know it's, it's a tiny
hospital and you have um schoolslike thing two.
What are they called?
Uh, the internationaluniversity.
I know you know this one.
There's one in Orange County, Iknew yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:11:10):
I know which US international alliance alliance
yes yeah and oh.
Speaker 2 (01:11:16):
you know their psychology program is great.
So a lot of students fromAlliant International were
trying to do their practicumhours there and I was like, yes,
I scored something so close tohome.
This is amazing.
But I learned how to be atherapist at BHC.
I mean that was an intensehospital, intense, intense.
Speaker 1 (01:11:35):
So, yeah, so my instructor was also the clinical
director on the patient sideIntense, intense, anything, and
we saw it.
You know, we saw, yeah, so I, I, uh, yeah, so four years
inpatient four years outpatientat BHC.
Speaker 2 (01:12:06):
So that is amazing.
We were, we worked at the samehospital.
But yeah, I.
Anytime I have somebody come upand say, you know where did you
go to school, do you recommendthis field?
I always say yes, absolutely,cause it's one of the most noble
careers anyone can have.
But it is right.
But also practicum needs to bein a hospital.
That's my opinion.
I think I love practice, butpracticum you got to swim in the
(01:12:29):
dirty water first, it's not allabout a beautiful chair and you
know no, you got to get yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:12:38):
I totally agree.
It's a PhD all in itself, soit's real world.
And eating disorders are thetoughest.
That's the hardest.
I've worked with all of themand I had eating disorders.
Dr McNeil liked me, so he wasthe psychiatrist.
Dr McNeil, I'm going toleverage you so he would give me
(01:13:02):
some couple.
That would yeah, but boy, theywere tough because I do a lot
with humor and they did not know, this was a process group, you
know.
You know I'm trying to tell ajoke and make everybody laugh
and a 20, you know, with peoplethat have slipped their wrists
or their throat, and and and theeating disorder was tough
(01:13:23):
because it was all about controland they were trying to control
from.
You know, they're controllingthe food they're controlling and
while you're eating it was very, very so.
I learned a lot.
Very interesting.
Speaker 2 (01:13:38):
I'm very grateful for that experience, honestly the
toughest years of my life.
But I will never, ever regretthe years in school and the
years in practicum Blessing.
Yeah, yeah, it was.
Yeah.
Well, Bill, thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:13:50):
Thank you so much for today this was so good.
Speaker 2 (01:13:53):
I appreciate you.
Thank you so much for today.
Speaker 1 (01:13:54):
You're welcome.
Speaker 2 (01:13:55):
This was so good.
I appreciate you and I again.
I love your work and you'veread so many books.
My God, you're just like awealth of knowledge you are.
Take a compliment.
Speaker 1 (01:14:07):
Yes, ma'am, I will.
Speaker 2 (01:14:10):
I am responsible.
Thank you, bill, I appreciateyou.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.