October 17, 2024 • 55 mins
Can daycare affect your child's mental health and development? Erica Komisar, a seasoned clinical social worker and author, joins me to unravel the complexities of child rearing in today's society. Through this episode, we challenge the prevailing cultural norms that often pit career aspirations against the needs of our children. Erica offers insightful perspective on how daycare environments can shape a child's emotional landscape, especially highlighting the differing impacts on boys and girls. She passionately argues for the importance of parental presence, emphasizing nurturing and play as foundational blocks for healthy growth and attachment.
Parenting today can feel like walking a tightrope in a world that increasingly values material success over relational harmony. We explore how the joy once found in parenting has been overshadowed by societal pressures driven by the feminist movement and materialism. It's crucial to recognize the vital role parenting plays and the pressures modern parents face in juggling career goals with raising children. Our conversation with Erica pushes us to reconsider what truly counts as success and to strive for a balance that honors both our professional ambitions and our responsibilities to the next generation.
The episode concludes with a deep appreciation of the profound influence parents, especially mothers, have in shaping future leaders. We delve into the potential traumas linked to insufficient early childhood care and the importance of secure attachments with primary caregivers. Erica's insights remind us of the power parental presence holds in a child's world, stressing the value of family bonds and consistent caregiving. By the end, we hope to inspire parents to embrace their critical role, recognizing that the love and guidance they provide lay the foundation for a better society.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
the more physically and emotionally you can be
present, or at least one primaryparent can be present to soothe
that baby when they're indistress and provide them with a
sense of security, the greaterthe chance that that child will
be mentally healthy.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
If we can just have this minimalist mentality, I
think everything would bemanageable and we can stay home
and take care of our children.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
I always say to mothers you can be physically
present and be emotionallychecked out.
You cannot be emotionallypresent if you are not
physically present.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
period If we want these children in law school,
medical school, what we'redreaming of.
I mean that takes a lot ofnurture and love and care to get
them to that level.
You can't have a traumatizedkid going into all these, you
know like healthy education andpursuing these healthy, healthy
things for themselves.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Your children need to be in school.
They're going to be moresuccessful.
No, I mean, children neednurturing, they need play, they
need to be close to their sourceof security.
That's it.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Hello everyone, thank you for joining me today.
We want to talk about daycaresand I wanted to bring on someone
to talk about daycares and thenegative effects it has on
little children.
Now why I wanted to bring onErica Komisar, lcsw.
She's a therapist in New York,the author of an amazing book
(01:36):
that really changed myperspective, my life and how I
mother my children called beingthere.
I read this book several yearsago and it really changed how I
see daycare and it really mademe rethink about daycare.
Now, this is not to haveanybody feel judged because
(01:58):
their children are in daycare orthey have utilized daycares,
but I really wanted to bring onErica because she has such
beautiful, valid points withresearch.
In this episode we discuss thecrucial role daycare plays in
the lives of families, but alsowhat it takes away from families
(02:18):
, children particularly.
I love how she loves kids and Ilove how she portrays the
research about these daycareseloquently.
Again, it's not a judge, but Ireally wanted you guys to see
how it does put a tarnish on thedevelopment of children and
their attachments.
We dived into what symptomschildren endure when they're in
(02:43):
daycare the attachment disorders, whether it's anxiety, whether
it's depression.
We did talk about thedifference between what the boys
and the little girls experiencethat are coming out from
daycare.
It was just, overall, abeautiful experience to be in
her presence, because she takesmothering to a different level.
(03:04):
She has three children herself,has raised phenomenal children
herself, and it was reallyloving to see the advice that
she gave.
You're going to find all ofthat in this podcast, but I have
a really deeper understandingof what mothering is now talking
to her, so I think you guys aregoing to take away some really
(03:24):
valid points.
Again.
Third time, I'm kind ofreiterating this it's not a
judgment for anyone that hastheir children in daycare, but
these are facts that she'ssaying and these are the
experiences that children endure.
So we have to really be mindful.
We did talk about the simplelife and how we can kind of
prioritize and I thinkprioritizing his left women.
(03:48):
Because of the radical feminismnowadays, we have forgotten
that taking care of our childrenis the most important thing.
All discussed in today'sepisode with licensed social
worker Erica Komisar.
Thank you for joining me, erica.
It's so nice to meet you.
Thank you for joining me today.
First of all, it's an honor.
(04:08):
I love your work and I love howyou love children and how you
stand up for their developmentand their rights, so I'm very
excited to have you on today.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Thank you for having me Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
I wanted to talk about.
I think one of the firstquestions that I have that just
struck me when I'm looking atyour podcast is this way of you
explaining how we're living in avery narcissistic time and
parents have really are lookingat their children as burdens
instead of value.
(04:43):
Can you tell us a little bitabout that?
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Mothering and parenting is very hard work.
It's always been hard work, butthe responsibility of it was
pleasurable in the past Notalways, but mostly right.
So we took pleasure in giving.
We took pleasure in caring andloving and giving.
(05:06):
And I think in a generationwhich hasn't been given to I
would say actually threegenerations now that haven't
been given to then the givingmakes them feel angry and
resentful and dependency makesthem feel frightened and
resentful, and so that's asymptom of not being given to.
(05:30):
If we're given to, we morenaturally feel pleasure and joy
in giving.
If we're not given to, we feelless pleasure and joy in giving
and feel more resentment andanger.
And so what we're seeing issort of three generations going
on, four of young people feelingresentful about things like
dependency, which used to besomething that was incredibly
(05:54):
pleasurable.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
What do you think I mean from your perspective?
What changed in mothering orparents in general that this
happened?
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Well, a number of things changed.
I suppose the biggest, mostobvious thing is the feminist
movement, which was a necessarything.
Right, because before thatwomen didn't have choices.
Right, so they were havingchildren even though they didn't
want children.
They were getting married andhaving children because it was
the only thing that societyallowed them to do.
I think we needed to have amovement that allowed women to
(06:25):
have choice.
Right that they choose to havechildren, not that they're
forced to have children.
But having said that, in doingthat, in freeing women and
giving them the choice, it sortof perverted the message.
The message should have beenyou have a choice now.
The message should have beenyou have a choice now.
(06:46):
But children and raisingchildren is an incredibly
important part of life.
What are we if we can't raiseour own healthy children to be
our legacy?
They're our legacy, not ourwork, not our money, not
materially.
What we leave behind.
In Judaism I'm Jewish we saywhen someone passes away, we say
(07:10):
may their memory be a blessing,and so we always think of our
legacy are the relationships weleave behind, not our stuff.
But I think that what's happenedis that the women's movement
said right, raising children isnot meaningful and important
work.
Work outside the home is moreimportant, making money is more
(07:35):
important.
Economically and career-wise,competing with men is more
important.
And if you don't do that, itsaid, you're not part of the
movement.
You're not part of the movement, you're not a feminist, you're
not a modern woman if you don'twork outside the home.
And that was a very perversemessage, instead of saying
(08:02):
mothering is critical to thesurvival of our species and it's
such an important role.
But you can also have a choicenow, women, that you can have a
linear career and not havechildren, and that should also
be admirable and respectable.
And if you choose to mix it upand have both, you can do both
in life.
You just can't do them all atthe same time.
Well, so think of timing inlife and choose when you're
(08:24):
going to have these fabulouscareers outside the home and and
then be willing and courageousenough to step off that path to
care for your young and givethem all of you, and then be
willing to go back.
You know it, it it didn't again.
Sometimes, when movements aretrying to, they create an
(08:46):
extreme.
The pendulum swings very far.
So that's one of the thingsthat happened.
The other thing that happened, Iwould say, is advertising,
television.
The usually say technology.
Today, like Jonathan and Iwrote a book about technology, I
would say media, it was thebeginning of advertising and the
(09:10):
movie industry and televisionAgain, not to demonize it, it's
wonderful, I love watchingmovies.
It portrayed materialism and itportrayed economic prosperity
(09:31):
as the signs of success.
Right, so if you buy thisvacuum cleaner, you will be
modern, if you buy this newhouse and these new cars.
And that made people suddenlyfeel as if they were lacking and
that if they didn't have thecars and the vacuum cleaner and
the bigger house and if theydidn't look like supermodels and
(09:53):
like movie stars and have thebeautiful clothes, that they
were lacking and they weren'tmodern.
And so that then that precededsocial media and television.
Social media and technology thatwe see today.
And the problem with that is itwhet people's appetite in a way
for material success overrelational success.
(10:14):
So it was a combination ofsocietal things that said what
does it mean to be modern andwhat does it mean to be a modern
woman and to be modern?
You had to have all this stuff,and to have all this stuff you
have to go out to work and youhave to make lots of money and
that's right, you know so.
So sacrifice for relationshipswent out.
(10:34):
The window.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
That's right, which I think also puts so much
pressure on the dads at home,because in this new age, in the
new world where you have allthis stuff that's coming up, I
have to have the latest bag, Ihave to have the latest vacuum
In one income.
It's difficult to, you know,have all these things so it kind
(10:55):
of like pushed women into thesejobs and so that pushed these
children away as priority, Ithink, and I think that's what
you're explaining, which is sobeautifully said.
It is this stuff.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Also, gloria Steinem said, you know, she said go out
to work outside the home.
And again, you're not modern ifyou don't go out to work
outside the home.
So, and she didn't mentionanything about children.
She actually said children willbe just fine, Just find someone
to care for them, they'll allbe just fine.
Just find someone to care forthem, they'll all be just fine.
And she never had children.
So, um, she made that lineardecision to be a career woman
(11:31):
and she was very successful atit and whatever.
But she so what?
What got forgotten in all of it?
Uh, were children.
And what got forgotten is thejoy of mothering, because there
were a lot of women who lovedmothering, who were told that
they were insignificant and theyweren't modern.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
I wonder, from these talks and these podcasts that
you do.
Do you ever have women saying,well, that's not a choice, we
don't have that choice, we haveto work now.
And so what do you tell tothose families that kind of like
go against this, like nodaycare is not the best option?
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Not all women have the same choices.
We live in a country in America, I live in a country in America
that has very few choices forpoor women, and it's why I fight
for paid leave.
I mean, one of the reasons thatI go around and talk like I do
is to say you know, we are themost insensitive, uncivilized
(12:30):
country in the world other thanPapua New Guinea.
We're the only country that hasno paid leave.
We put capitalism andmaterialism and economic success
over families and relationship.
We talk a big game about beingfamily oriented.
We are not.
(12:51):
We do not like families, we donot like children.
You have to put your moneywhere your mouth is if you say
you do.
And we're very much intoparticularly the Republican
Party, but also, now you know,the Democratic Party too.
We're very much intoself-sufficiency, sort of the
pioneering spirit of America.
We should all be able to do iton our own, pull ourselves up by
(13:15):
our bootstraps and work hardand do it on our own.
We shouldn't lean on thegovernment or anybody else.
On our own, we shouldn't leanon the government or anybody
else.
Just independentself-sufficiency,
self-determinism, pioneeringspirit.
(13:35):
And the truth is that probablythe majority of people in
America do not have that ability.
They've been raised ingenerational poverty.
They are not, they do not haveaccess to education or
opportunities and they remain in.
Uh, if they do at work, theyremain in, you know, uh, very
low paying, uh minimum wagekinds of jobs and they can't
(13:57):
afford to to take off time whenthey have a child.
Neither one of them and manyfamilies work two and three jobs
just to be able to pay theirmortgage.
So you know, and that'sdifferent than the middle and
upper middle class and theaffluent class in America, there
is a working class in Americaand an impoverished class that
desperately needs to have paidleave.
(14:19):
And so this idea that we shouldall be self sufficient is part
of the pathology of our country,because self-sufficiency is
something that we can onlyachieve when we can lean on
others.
It's an offshoot, it is abyproduct and a developmental
byproduct of being able to bedependent.
(14:39):
So we have to be able to leanon others, including our
government, if we want toeventually be more independent
and self-sufficient.
So the idea that from birth youshould be self-sufficient.
So you know, again I'm going tosay, on the right, on the left,
they say you know, go women, goworking women, you know you go,
(15:01):
be part of the economy, competewith men, be out there.
So they have their own shtickabout it, which is, yes, we want
to give you three months ofpaid leave, but then we want you
to put your children ininstitutional care because you
women should go out and work.
So they don't really.
They don't really care aboutchildren.
On the right, they say theycare about children, but they
(15:22):
don't want to pay anything tosupport families with children,
and so then the idea is, ofcourse, we want you to stay home
, but we want you to do it onyour own, just stand on your own
feet, and that's just notrealistic for a good proportion
of this, a good percentage ofthis country or any other
country.
(15:42):
I mean, if you look at anycountry, they have paid leave
for a reason they do.
Even grandparents, people whowork in low paid jobs,
desperately need to have paidleave.
So we could even I mean, youknow, everybody talks about paid
leave should be universal.
I think in our country thatprobably is never going to
happen, but I do believe that itcould be needs based and I
(16:04):
believe that the people whoreally need it, not the people
who want it, so they can havetwo cars or take a vacation or,
you know, get a bigger house orum.
Uh, chris Rufo, who's at theManhattan Institute, said to me
uh, we were having aconversation and he said to me,
and he's very Republican, and hesaid you know, part of the
(16:26):
problem too is that people Ibelieve he said people people's
desires also increased.
So whereas people used to behappy with a 2000 square foot
house with four bedrooms,everybody just had a tiny space,
now the middle class has tohave a 3,000 square foot house
(16:47):
or a 4,000 square foot house andtwo cars not one car and take
two vacations a year and buy newclothes for their children
every school season.
When I was little, I used to goto Barnum and Bailey Circus with
my family and Madison squaregarden.
Then it was in Connecticut.
(17:07):
It it uh, in one of the kind ofbig kind of places in new Haven
.
I can't remember what it wascalled, um, but it like a
Madison square garden and Iremember it was big like the
elephants and the, but it was.
It was big but manageable.
I was little and it was big andthe noise was loud, but it was
(17:28):
exciting.
And as I got older and my kids.
I started taking my kids toMadison Square Garden for this,
for Barnum and Bailey Um.
What I noticed is it got bigger, louder, more overstimulating,
to the extent that I could nolonger take my children to the
circus and then the circus shutdown because no one was going to
(17:49):
the circus, because it got sobig and loud.
In the same way, we have grownin our greed as a nation in
terms of how much is enough, andthat's made it untenable for
even middle class families whoused to have choices.
So we do say housing isexpensive and all these things
(18:10):
are expensive.
It's true, but the truth of thematter is our greed is a big
part of it.
Not for very poor people, no,but for middle class, upper
middle class, wealthy people.
It's greed and we don't want tocall it greed, but it is greed.
We value our material successand pleasures over our children.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
I agree with you 100% , and a wise man once said
children are not expensive.
We are expensive.
That's right.
It's so true, that's right.
I think that if we can as asociety and I know it's kind of
hard to do and possibly mightnever happen, but if we can just
have this minimalist mentality,I think everything would be
(18:53):
manageable and we can stay homeand take care of our children,
Because daycare is also verypricey.
That's also a different expenseand there's a lot of myths,
yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
So people have been been told.
And again I blame this on thefeminist movement, because
daycare was part of the feministagenda, right, and it's part of
the capitalist agenda.
It's part of the DemocraticParty's agenda.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Which is that you know again, here we go.
The Republican Party doesn'tpush for daycare, they push for
families, but they don't want topay for families to be together
.
The Democratic Party says thatthey push for families, but they
want kids in daycare because,in the end, capitalism is more
important than children.
In both parties, capitalism ismore important than children and
(19:42):
that's really a problem.
But what?
The myth that spread aboutdaycare and started with the
feminist movement is that it'sgood for children, that it was a
failed experiment.
The idea of separating childrenfrom their parents long days,
(20:13):
long hours during the day andeven overnight was a failed
experiment.
It actually traumatizedchildren who needed attachment,
security to a primary attachmentobject their parents.
Right, and so we know that thisis a failed experiment.
But what's happened is it'sbeing promoted as being good for
children, that it helps them tobe smarter and get ready for
school, and it's called schoolin northern Europe.
(20:34):
I'm like it's not school, it isinstitutional care, at a time
when children shouldn't be ininstitutional care, and the myth
that somehow and it's good forchildren socially Children don't
interact with one another untilthey're about three.
They do something calledparallel play developmentally,
so it's not good for children.
(20:55):
It traumatizes children, itelevates their cortisol levels,
it makes them feel frightenedand it activates the stress
regulating parts of the brain ata time when that part of the
brain is supposed to remain very, very offline, and so it's not
(21:16):
good for children.
It's been shown that childrenwho are put into daycare have
higher levels of aggressionlater, and when they get to the
school years they also havehigher levels of distractibility
and higher levels of depressionand anxiety.
So, as we say in America,houston, we have a problem in
that it's gaslighting.
Parents is what it is, because Ihave parents come to me and say
(21:36):
we were told that our childrenwould get left behind, that it's
better for children to be, andRomania did this too.
Romania promoted the myth.
Cecefscu promoted the myth thatthe state could raise your
children better than you could,and it ended up with children
being put into orphanages.
(21:57):
Families who could have caredfor their own children believed
that they were doing what wasbest for their children by
putting them in state-runinstitutions, because the state
said we can raise your childrenbetter than you.
Now, this isn't telling parentsto put them into orphanages,
but when you tell parents to putchildren into daycare up to 10
(22:19):
hours a day.
You are basically telling themto put their children in
orphanages.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
So the myth that they learn how to play, they learn
how to socialize, they learn howto connect so that later on in
life they'll know how to playwith their siblings better.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
That's all false mother or a father, whoever is
the one who is their primaryattachment figure, usually the
mother.
It is through that intimate,trusting, safe, loving,
(22:56):
reassuring relationship, thatconsistent relationship, that a
child develops a deep sense ofsecurity and the ability to read
social cues of other children.
There was just a study thatcame out that there's been many
studies.
There was another one that cameout the other day that said you
know, by three years of agechildren have developed all the
(23:17):
mirror neurons so they canidentify the intentions of other
children.
Now if you put them in daycare,they never develop those
reading of social cues.
The reading of social cuescomes from your intimacy with
them, your empathy for them,your skin-to-skin contact, your
(23:42):
soothing them when they're indistress.
That safety and acknowledgementand understanding and
reassurance from moment tomoment in the first three years
with that primary attachmentobject, is the way that they
learn how to have closerelationships.
When you put them in daycare itcreates attachment disorders
(24:02):
which then interfere with andbecome obstacles to having
relationships.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
What are some of the developments that they learn
when they're with their mother,when the mother is nurturing
with them, so during those threeyears, so that, so the viewers
can understand.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
So mothers do a few very important things.
One is that they bufferchildren from stress.
They protect them from stresswith things like skin to skin
contact, eye contact, the toneof their voice, the soothing of
that mother from moment tomoment when the baby is in
distress.
It both regulates the child'semotions.
It keeps their emotions fromgoing too high or too low and it
(24:43):
also buffers that child fromstress, protects them from
stress and keeps the stressregulating part of the brain
offline for the first year.
So little incremental amounts ofstress are part of all baby's
lives.
I mean whether it's the motherlooks away for a moment or walks
to go to the bathroom for amoment, or there are moments of
(25:04):
or doesn't get they'll diaperchange quickly enough for is
hungry and has to wait a fewminutes.
There's always incremental bitsof stress, but nothing major.
So we say that minor tears inthe connection can be repaired.
Major tears are another thing.
So when you have a rupture in arelationship, it could be as
(25:28):
simple as the baby seeing themother look away for a moment.
But the mother then looks backat the baby and reassures the
baby and says oh honey, I see Ilooked away and you're sad, and
that is repairing the rupture.
But so we call them minormisunderstandings throughout the
day.
But when you leave a baby, itis not minor, it is major right.
(25:58):
And so buffering from stress,emotional regulation, teaching
babies how to read social cues,teaching them how to trust in
relationships overall.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
That's beautiful.
Does every child experience theattachment damages while
they're in daycare or it differs?
Every child is different.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Every child is different and that means that
they differ in terms of theirsensitivity to stress in the
environment.
So very sensitive children whoare more neurologically
sensitive.
It basically means they're moresensitive to stress.
And what we do know is thatmany babies are being born more
emotionally and neurologicallysensitive.
(26:32):
They're the babies who areharder to.
So that if you're fiscally andemotionally present for those
babies as much as possible, itneutralizes the expression of
(26:54):
that sensitivity in mentalhealth terms, but if you're not
present, it exacerbates it andit turns into things like ADHD,
depression, anxiety, forms ofaggression.
So when we are stressed as humanbeings, we go into fight or
flight mode essentially, and sowe're seeing more children in
fight or flight mode, whetherit's more aggressive children,
(27:17):
more distracted children, whichwe're labeling as ADHD, which is
just a symptom of stress, rightDistractibility.
These are depression andanxiety.
These are symptoms of theirresponses to stress, essentially
.
So we know that the babiesdiffer in terms of their
(27:37):
sensitivity.
Some babies can tolerate morestress.
Some babies less Little boysare generally more
neurologically sensitive.
We say that more little girls,more little boys are born in the
world, but fewer survive rightEverywhere in the world, and
that has to do with the factthat they are more sensitive to
(27:57):
stress in the environmentphysical stress, emotional
stress Even more than littlegirls.
They will get triggered and gointo a symptomatic state.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
This is the suffering that you're talking about, that
children suffer without theirmothers.
Are these that you just labeledsome of the symptoms that they
experience later on in life?
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Yes, I mean as a result of having attachment
disorders.
Different attachment disorderscorrelate with different forms
of mental illness.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
What do we see?
Speaker 1 (28:26):
more Depression.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Yeah, what do we see more?
Sorry, what do we see more likein little girls and little boys
later on, like I'm noticingboys with ADHD symptoms that are
just been you know misdiagnosedleft and right.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
Yeah, more depression in little girls, more
distractibility and aggressionin little boys.
But, that it's not not.
As a general rule, little girlscan be aggressive and
distractible, but generally morelittle boys are aggressive,
bite and hit, throw chairs.
Um, and more little boys uh areare are distractible, meaning
they go into flight, and morelittle girls go into a depressed
(29:02):
state.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
I want to go back to kind of uh, I know there's going
to be a lot of familieswatching this.
Um, I want to soothe themothers and fathers a little bit
, because they're going toprobably think that we're saying
never work, just stay home andtake care of your children.
Now, is there like a goodbalance that we can balance or
doesn't exist, so that we knowthat we're not damaging our
(29:24):
children?
Speaker 1 (29:25):
You know, balance is it is according to the
individual children that youhave.
So if you have more sensitivechildren, you have to pay
attention to that, meaning youcan't treat all of your children
the same.
Maybe you have one child whoyou can leave three hours a day
and the other child can't beleft at all because they go,
they freak out when you want,when you leave leave.
(29:52):
So it depends on the individualchild.
But what I would say is thatyou know more is more.
The more physically andemotionally you can be present,
or at least one primary parentcan be present from moment to
moment to soothe that baby whenthey're in distress and provide
them with a sense of security,the greater the chance that that
child will be mentally healthy.
So that means going back to aone working parent family.
(30:12):
You know, in a two parentfamily where one can stay home
or one works primarily outsidethe home and one works primarily
in the home.
That doesn't mean that the onethat works in the home can't
also have some part-time work.
But the idea of two full-timeworking parents, you can't.
(30:34):
Children are not self-cleaningovens, they just aren't.
They don't.
They don't raise themselves andyou can't expect someone else
to raise your, your children, tobe healthy, to, to, and you
can't expect that child to feelsafe if you haven't been with
them to provide that safety inthose early years.
(30:56):
So what we're not talking aboutin society is how do we get
back to a place where we canraise children with one person,
where we can raise children witha team approach?
Right, a team approach wasn't acompetitive approach.
Today, men and women competebecause the feminist movement
said you go out there and youbeat more men than men.
(31:18):
You beat the men at their owngame.
You can be more men than men.
And that's what they did.
They went out there, theyabandoned their children.
That generation of womendropped their children like
yesterday's old fish wrapped innewspaper.
This is true, yeah, and thosechildren were abandoned.
I call them the abandonedgeneration, the generation of
(31:39):
feminism.
They literally were dropped.
Wow, yes.
And then those women becamemothers and, because they were
traumatized and neglected, theythen raised their children and
dropped their.
I mean, this is generationalexpression, right, and so, yeah,
I mean I think the idea is ifwe could get back to a place
(32:00):
where, from a very early stagein our lives, we plan our life.
We don't plan our career, weplan our life and you teach your
daughters and your sons to plana life, not a career.
I have a son in medical schooland his girlfriend is in law
school and the kind of work thatI do they hear me all the time.
(32:23):
My family could probably get onthis podcast and be interviewed
by you and they'd be able tosay exactly the same thing,
because they've heard me.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
So much so how do you do that?
How do you have parents teachthat?
How did you do that?
How did you apply?
I have two kids.
I would love to learn.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
First I modeled, and I modeled when they were, when
they were little.
They were my priority.
I worked very little.
I worked a little bit outsidethe home, just enough to pay for
for me myself, to pay for ababysitter, not so I could leave
my children, but so that whenmy husband was at work and we
had three children it could betwo on three what we call zone
(33:01):
defense, because one on threewas tough.
My mother was ill and mysisters were preoccupied, so for
me to have another person likeextended family.
So I ended up hiring a 58 yearold woman who I loved, who
became like a grandmother, andAlba and I were together and we
would go to the park togetherand we would tag team together
(33:23):
and I would take two and shewould take one, and I would take
one and she would take two, andthen we would all be together.
But and then my husband wouldcome home and Alba would leave
and that it would be my husband.
So it's a team approach.
You see, it's not competitive.
So in those years it wasn't.
Can I make as much money as myhusband?
Can I?
Can I be as successful as him?
(33:44):
Can I be as narcissisticallypleased by my career.
It wasn't like that.
It was how little can I workand still be able to pay Alba,
but be primarily with mychildren, and so I love her name
?
Yeah, I was able to get awaywith a couple of hours a day of
work and it was enough to payAlba, and then we um, I didn't
(34:08):
ratchet back up my career untilmy children were in high school
and college.
So the idea is that and eventhen I made sure to be home when
my children were home and towork when they were in school.
So you know, the day is long,maybe not long enough for some,
but the day is long and you cando a lot of things in the day,
(34:30):
but you can work when yourchildren are at school and
that's ideally.
Eventually, that's the ideal formothers is to not have to work
when their children are home,but to work when their children
are working.
You know, maria Montessori saidchildren's work is school.
So when they're actually eightyears old, 12 years old, 14
(34:51):
years old, when they're atschool, you work.
And when they come home fromschool, and the ideal is to
create the illusion for yourchildren that you're sitting
home all day, twiddling yourthumbs, waiting for them to come
home.
Because my kids used to comehome when they were six, seven
(35:12):
years old and I picked them upat school at two and they would
come home and we'd bake cookiesand, you know, go to the park
and then make dinner and play.
And so they said to me, mommy,what did you do all day waiting
for me?
Because their illusion, theillusion, was I was waiting for
them.
They didn't know.
I was at my practice seeingpatients from nine to two, you
(35:36):
know, and then picking them up.
So the ideal is for women towork when their children work.
That is the ideal.
But when they're under three,children do not work, they play
and they need you.
Children do not work, they playand they need you.
And so more is more.
The more present you can be inthose years, the healthier your
(35:56):
children will be, and there'sjust no substitute for the time
you spend with them.
You know, I always say tomothers you can be physically
present and be emotionallychecked out.
You cannot be emotionallypresent if you are not
physically present.
Period, that is absolutely amyth.
Another myth, and some of thesemyths, which were like
(36:18):
gaslighting parents aboutchildren, really took hold of
our culture the myth thatdaycare is better for children
than being home with your mother, that quality time is as good
as quantity.
I don't know.
These myths grabbed hold of ourculture and I think now, the
(36:40):
ignorance in so many parentswhich is not their fault, the
lack of knowledge of what isactually good for children is
shocking to me Absolutely, and Ifeel and I see this all the
time too mothers are home, buttheir children are in daycare.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
I promise you, I see this all the time too.
Mothers are home, but theirchildren are in daycare.
I promise you, I see this sooften.
I know that it's this like me,me, me.
I want to have my own time.
I need my own time.
We're such a selfish society.
It's very selfish.
Yeah, the way you're talking.
(37:15):
It's so eloquent.
You express it so beautifullythat women need to prioritize
their children.
But how can we make or allowwomen to know or understand that
it is priority If we want thesechildren in law school, medical
school, what we're dreaming of,that I mean that takes a lot of
nurture and love and care toget them to that level.
(37:36):
You can't have a traumatizedkid going into all these.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
you know like healthy education and and will be
successful in their careers, butthey all recognize that, that
careers always have to comesecond to relationships, so says
I don't want to work all thetime.
I don't want to do that.
(38:21):
I want to be able to be with myfamily and my loved ones, and I
feel empty when I'm working allthe time.
You want your children to feelempty when they work all the
time.
You want them to feel full whenthey're with relationships that
they love.
You want them to feel full whenthey're with relationships that
they love.
And we've created the oppositeparadigm Feel full when you're
(38:41):
at work and feel empty whenyou're with your children.
It's the opposite.
We want them to feel full withtheir children and feel a little
empty.
So when mothers say to me I'mpreoccupied with my baby, I went
back to work too soon, buteverybody's telling me it'll get
better, I'm like no, I'm likeyou don't want it to get better,
(39:02):
you want to be preoccupied withyour young child.
So listen to this.
Society is telling you, isgaslighting you, is telling you
a myth, a lie.
You listen to your instincts.
It's called maternalpreoccupation and it's hormonal.
When we have a baby, we can'ttake our mind off the baby and
(39:25):
society says oh, don't worry,that'll go away If you just wait
, it'll just go away.
There was a line from I don'tknow if you know the play Our
Town by Thornton Wilder.
No, but it's my favorite play.
Uh, thornton Wilder is one ofthe great American playwrights
and he uh, there's a scene.
It's basically about a woman, awoman who passes away, young
(39:49):
woman who passes away and sheleaves a young family.
She dies in those days youcould die from the flu, you know
, turn of the century maybe andshe dies.
And it's a small town andthere's a scene in the graveyard
where all of her neighbors whohave passed away are sitting up
(40:09):
in their chairs in the graveyardand she comes in.
She's the newbie she's died andshe's coming into the graveyard
and she's mourning for the lossof her children and her husband
and her family and she's cryingand mourning and the people who
have passed say to her don'tworry, dear, this will pass and
(40:32):
you'll feel nothing.
You'll eventually feel nothing.
And I always think of thatscene because what we're asking
is that people's instincts die,that they disconnect from them,
like being in the graveyard ofinstincts where we tell them
don't worry, your feelings, foryour baby will die and you'll be
(40:56):
okay.
And it's disastrous forchildren.
Why do you think it'sdisastrous for children?
Well, when your own mother andyour father cannot feel empathy
towards your distress or pain orloss, then you are truly lost,
that's trauma, as Gabor says,it's trauma.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
Yeah, your first.
You know trauma is the safetynet that's been compromised.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
It is the trauma.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
Yeah.
So if the, if the families donot have a choice let's say
daycare is the only option otherthan daycare who else is safe
to leave the children with?
That's going to develop theattachments securely and
properly.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
Well, in my book, in order of appearance, I talk
about what's best for children.
And first and foremost, what'sbest for children is their
primary attachment figure.
Usually their mother could betheir father.
Today we know that next bestwould be kinship bonds.
(41:58):
So kinship bonds aregrandmothers, aunts, um, uh, you
know, sisters that are caringfor your, for your children, um,
and that's the next best,because those people have the
the most similar investmentemotionally in your children and
will be in your children'slives forever.
(42:19):
So, like an aunt, I rememberwhen my kids were in preschool,
at about four, there was afamily who, a Latino family, who
had brought the sister in lawover from you know whether it
was Columbia or and she becamethe caregiver because the mother
worked and she was thecaregiver, uh, and so you know
(42:41):
she lived with the family butshe was the aunt and she wasn't
going anywhere.
She was going to be the aunt forlife.
Now, sad for the mother thatAuntie Maria was going to be
closer to those children thanthe mother, because the mother
was a banker and worked fulltime.
But Auntie Maria was going tobe the one who sued them when
they were in distress andprobably, at the end of the day,
(43:02):
I never really asked.
I'm guessing the babies did notwant to go back to the mother
but wanted to sleep with AuntieMaria.
So you have to know when yougive that role away to a
grandmother or an aunt, you aregiving it away.
You are giving it away.
You are giving something veryprecious away that you will
never get back.
Do not give that role awayunless you are desperate, okay.
(43:27):
Second, after kinship bonds,would be a single surrogate
caregiver, a really goodbabysitter who, or nanny who,
becomes like extended family.
If you really don't haveextended family, then hire
extended family and make surethat that person can stay in
your children's lives for 18years so they're the closest.
(43:50):
So Alba is still in our lives.
So you know the idea that thosepeople remain in your
children's lives likegrandmothers and aunts, right,
they're not disposable in anyway and they should not be
treated like hired help becausethey are more like family.
Okay, afford it.
(44:18):
So daycare, as you say, is quiteexpensive.
Sharing a caregiver with yourbest friend saying, jane, let's
share this babysitter, let'sshare Alba, I'll pay for half of
Alba's salary, you pay for theother half and she can spend
half of the days in my apartmentand half of the days in your
apartment and that way ourchildren know each other's homes
like they're their own homesand they feel then comfortable
(44:38):
and they have one caregiverwho's taking care of two
children.
Remember, the ratios in daycarewith strangers are no less than
five to one, usually eight toone.
You're putting fiveone-year-old children or less,
five children with one caregiverand and so I challenge any
(44:58):
mothers listening to this, orfather to think about caring for
five children and to see howwould your patience level be,
how would your love level be,how would your ability to soothe
them when they're in distress,how would your relatability and
intimacy be?
And the answer is no.
The answer is no, just no.
(45:20):
So it's this weird disconnectin families.
Parents say oh, I can give mychild to this super caregiver.
She's a super caregiver, she'sbetter than me, she can handle
five children at once.
She's not better than you, andshe can't handle five children
at once.
And so what you're doing isyou're putting your child in an
(45:42):
environment where they're goingto be neglected.
Speaker 2 (45:45):
I agree with you.
And there's, you know,something even deeper than that
is when it's your child.
Okay, you have three kids athome, but there's this different
level of empathy and sympathythat you have for your kids.
So when your child is crying orwhen they fall, you still might
be anxious, you might be angryand frustrated, but you're still
(46:07):
able to nurture that child,your child.
Versus a super babysitter or adaycare worker.
They're not going to have thatsame level of empathy and
sympathy that you have for yourkids.
I think a lot of parents miss tounderstand that as well.
It's a little different.
What age is okay to put kids inschool?
(46:32):
We know that.
You know those three years areextremely crucial for their
developments.
Is four okay?
Speaker 1 (46:40):
Daycare is under three, yeah, after three.
In this country we call itpreschool.
In other parts of the worldthey call it preschool at a year
.
Okay, preschool is not.
A year old is not preschool.
A year old is institutionalcare.
A child cannot be in school.
There's no school.
(47:01):
It's not school.
And again, that's gaslighting.
Again, because it's teachingparents that your children need
to be in school.
They're going to be moresuccessful.
No, I mean, children neednurturing, they need play, they
need to be close to their sourceof security.
That's it.
They don't need school.
(47:23):
And it isn't school until aboutthree.
And even at three it's stillgot to be play-based, because
their left brains are not readyto handle the frustration of
cognitive development untilthey're about five or six.
So you know, they learn theircolors and they learn.
So is it okay to have them sitin circle time?
(47:44):
Sure, for a few minutes, butanything more than that, where
you make them learn numbers andletters, you are forcing, you
are cramming cognitivedevelopment into a child's brain
who cannot handle thefrustration yet.
Well, it's to impress theparents, but it will backfire.
I agree, because if you try todevelop the cognitive part of
(48:06):
the brain, the left brain,before the social, emotional
part of the brain.
The brain rejects, eventuallyrejects it and cannot learn,
shuts down.
You need to put your socks onbefore your shoes, and your
socks is social, emotionaldevelopment.
That is attachment, security,play, and then you can
(48:30):
incrementally, when you get toprimary school you can start to
learn academically, but veryslowly and incrementally before
the age of five, between threeand five.
It's really it needs to beplay-based and that's another
myth.
We tell parents that we can,you know, we can give children
(48:50):
cognitive skills.
That's right, you can, you can,you can, but it will backfire.
That's right, you can, you can,you can, but it will backfire.
And what are the studies allshow?
The studies all show thatchildren who are social,
emotionally sensitively raisedin the first five years do much
better in terms of cognitive andacademic development later on,
(49:12):
whereas the children who areforce fed cognitive skills at
too early an age struggle withlearning later on.
Speaker 2 (49:20):
That's a very powerful study, because I've
seen three-year-olds say things,do things and I'm just like,
how is this possible?
But I think again, going backto what I was saying, a lot of
these daycares will force thison their kids because they want
to impress the parents.
Look what your children can do.
(49:40):
This is, you know, your moneyis going into the right place.
And it's unfortunate becausethose kids, yeah, they fall out.
They don't want to learnanymore when they're like five,
six, seven years old.
It's unbearable pressure.
I have a question,no-transcript.
(50:09):
Well, I mean, the truth is thatwe what did you do?
I learned from you.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
So floor time is critical with little ones.
So, we're putting a blanketfloor time, yeah, and so every
day should have a period of timethat we call floor time, which
is that you just sit on thefloor and they sit on the floor
and you have lots of toys andyou, you know, rotate, rotate
the toys so they stay interestedin, curious and stimulated, and
(50:38):
you just sit on the floor andyou know, admire them as they
pick up objects and put them intheir mouth, because that's how
they learn when they're littleand that they're, you know,
shaking things and things lightup, and you know, and you, and
it's the wonder and the awe oflearning about the world through
physical exploration andobjects.
So babies learn about the worldthrough physical exploration
and objects.
So babies learn about the worldthrough objects.
(50:59):
There are toy companies now,like Loverly or Love Every or
whatever it's called that youknow that really focus on
developmental toys, things thatstimulate babies.
But the idea is that any object,you know, in the old days you
didn't need things to light up,you didn't need things to make
sounds.
You know, kids had spoons andpots and they would take a spoon
(51:20):
and hit the pot, you know, andmake a musical instrument.
So the idea is that they learnthrough objects and exploration
of their physical world.
That's how they learn, and so,sitting on the floor and just
being in awe of them as theylearn about the world, take the
pots out of the kitchen drawerand the spoons and things that
they can't.
(51:41):
I mean no knives and forks,please, but you know spoons and
pots.
And you know all kinds of thingsin the kitchen that are just
non-harmful, innocuous objects.
They learn about the worldthrough objects and physical
exploration.
So just being with them asthey're learning about the world
, introducing them.
Look at the spoon and if I hitit on the pot it goes boom, boom
(52:04):
, boom.
And giving it to them andsaying you do boom, boom Toys in
the home.
Speaker 2 (52:08):
No Things that you already have.
Speaker 1 (52:10):
Yeah, yeah, so you don't need to go out and spend
thousands of dollars on toys.
I mean, have toys gotteninteresting?
Yes, I mean, but you don't needto spend thousands of dollars
on toys.
I've traveled all over theworld and I've seen that
(52:30):
children have what we calltransitional objects, poor
situations.
I was trekking in Vietnam andthere was a little boy in the
poorest mountain village and hehad a teddy bear.
That was not a teddy bear, itwas a piece of corn wrapped in a
knitted piece of fabric, asmall piece of fabric that his
mother knit and she wrapped itaround the corn and he held that
(52:53):
wrapped piece of corn and thatwas his teddy bear.
So it's not about being fancyand it's not about fancy classes
that you take your children to.
I mean, it's just about beingin awe of how they learn about
the world.
Speaker 2 (53:12):
And give them time also right, not expecting your
kid to be I don't know what atage three.
I think we also have to havepatience for their learning
process.
Yeah, and there's also thislike comparison with mothers and
their kids like so-and-so is,you know, knows how to count now
and say colors, and you don't.
It's so unfortunate.
I see so much, so much of that.
(53:33):
I grew up in the Soviet timesand I'm from I'm Armenian, so I
was.
When I was growing up inArmenia, I had the one little
teddy bear.
That wasn't that teddy bear andI had so much love for that
little toy.
But now it's just so manythings that I think like.
Also, it teaches them value,material, it's material, it is,
it's they have their ownplayrooms and, yeah, it's
(53:56):
material, it's all material.
Speaker 1 (53:59):
Yeah, yeah, we've exchanged love and presence for
materialism, and that's really ashame.
Speaker 2 (54:05):
Thank you so much for today.
I mean, you've literallycovered.
I had 25 questions but you justcovered everything so perfectly
.
I didn't even have to ask you.
You talked about them sobeautifully.
I appreciate you, I appreciateyour work and I love everything
that you're doing and I wishthat really moms can take
(54:29):
example of that, because it's someaningful, because we are, we
are raising tomorrow society.
All of this matters Because weare, we are raising tomorrow's
society.
All of this matters.
Then, you know, you have peopleacting wrong and doing horrible
things and we wonder where isthat stemming from?
It's moms?
You know we have to takeresponsibility for that.
So thank you, thank you fortoday.
Speaker 1 (54:56):
Thank you.
the more physically and emotionally you can be
present, or at least one primaryparent can be present to soothe
that baby when they're indistress and provide them with a
sense of security, the greaterthe chance that that child will
be mentally healthy.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
If we can just have this minimalist mentality, I
think everything would bemanageable and we can stay home
and take care of our children.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
I always say to mothers you can be physically
present and be emotionallychecked out.
You cannot be emotionallypresent if you are not
physically present.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
period If we want these children in law school,
medical school, what we'redreaming of.
I mean that takes a lot ofnurture and love and care to get
them to that level.
You can't have a traumatizedkid going into all these, you
know like healthy education andpursuing these healthy, healthy
things for themselves.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Your children need to be in school.
They're going to be moresuccessful.
No, I mean, children neednurturing, they need play, they
need to be close to their sourceof security.
That's it.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Hello everyone, thank you for joining me today.
We want to talk about daycaresand I wanted to bring on someone
to talk about daycares and thenegative effects it has on
little children.
Now why I wanted to bring onErica Komisar, lcsw.
She's a therapist in New York,the author of an amazing book
(01:36):
that really changed myperspective, my life and how I
mother my children called beingthere.
I read this book several yearsago and it really changed how I
see daycare and it really mademe rethink about daycare.
Now, this is not to haveanybody feel judged because
(01:58):
their children are in daycare orthey have utilized daycares,
but I really wanted to bring onErica because she has such
beautiful, valid points withresearch.
In this episode we discuss thecrucial role daycare plays in
the lives of families, but alsowhat it takes away from families
(02:18):
, children particularly.
I love how she loves kids and Ilove how she portrays the
research about these daycareseloquently.
Again, it's not a judge, but Ireally wanted you guys to see
how it does put a tarnish on thedevelopment of children and
their attachments.
We dived into what symptomschildren endure when they're in
(02:43):
daycare the attachment disorders, whether it's anxiety, whether
it's depression.
We did talk about thedifference between what the boys
and the little girls experiencethat are coming out from
daycare.
It was just, overall, abeautiful experience to be in
her presence, because she takesmothering to a different level.
(03:04):
She has three children herself,has raised phenomenal children
herself, and it was reallyloving to see the advice that
she gave.
You're going to find all ofthat in this podcast, but I have
a really deeper understandingof what mothering is now talking
to her, so I think you guys aregoing to take away some really
(03:24):
valid points.
Again.
Third time, I'm kind ofreiterating this it's not a
judgment for anyone that hastheir children in daycare, but
these are facts that she'ssaying and these are the
experiences that children endure.
So we have to really be mindful.
We did talk about the simplelife and how we can kind of
prioritize and I thinkprioritizing his left women.
(03:48):
Because of the radical feminismnowadays, we have forgotten
that taking care of our childrenis the most important thing.
All discussed in today'sepisode with licensed social
worker Erica Komisar.
Thank you for joining me, erica.
It's so nice to meet you.
Thank you for joining me today.
First of all, it's an honor.
(04:08):
I love your work and I love howyou love children and how you
stand up for their developmentand their rights, so I'm very
excited to have you on today.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Thank you for having me Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
I wanted to talk about.
I think one of the firstquestions that I have that just
struck me when I'm looking atyour podcast is this way of you
explaining how we're living in avery narcissistic time and
parents have really are lookingat their children as burdens
instead of value.
(04:43):
Can you tell us a little bitabout that?
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Mothering and parenting is very hard work.
It's always been hard work, butthe responsibility of it was
pleasurable in the past Notalways, but mostly right.
So we took pleasure in giving.
We took pleasure in caring andloving and giving.
(05:06):
And I think in a generationwhich hasn't been given to I
would say actually threegenerations now that haven't
been given to then the givingmakes them feel angry and
resentful and dependency makesthem feel frightened and
resentful, and so that's asymptom of not being given to.
(05:30):
If we're given to, we morenaturally feel pleasure and joy
in giving.
If we're not given to, we feelless pleasure and joy in giving
and feel more resentment andanger.
And so what we're seeing issort of three generations going
on, four of young people feelingresentful about things like
dependency, which used to besomething that was incredibly
(05:54):
pleasurable.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
What do you think I mean from your perspective?
What changed in mothering orparents in general that this
happened?
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Well, a number of things changed.
I suppose the biggest, mostobvious thing is the feminist
movement, which was a necessarything.
Right, because before thatwomen didn't have choices.
Right, so they were havingchildren even though they didn't
want children.
They were getting married andhaving children because it was
the only thing that societyallowed them to do.
I think we needed to have amovement that allowed women to
(06:25):
have choice.
Right that they choose to havechildren, not that they're
forced to have children.
But having said that, in doingthat, in freeing women and
giving them the choice, it sortof perverted the message.
The message should have beenyou have a choice now.
The message should have beenyou have a choice now.
(06:46):
But children and raisingchildren is an incredibly
important part of life.
What are we if we can't raiseour own healthy children to be
our legacy?
They're our legacy, not ourwork, not our money, not
materially.
What we leave behind.
In Judaism I'm Jewish we saywhen someone passes away, we say
(07:10):
may their memory be a blessing,and so we always think of our
legacy are the relationships weleave behind, not our stuff.
But I think that what's happenedis that the women's movement
said right, raising children isnot meaningful and important
work.
Work outside the home is moreimportant, making money is more
(07:35):
important.
Economically and career-wise,competing with men is more
important.
And if you don't do that, itsaid, you're not part of the
movement.
You're not part of the movement, you're not a feminist, you're
not a modern woman if you don'twork outside the home.
And that was a very perversemessage, instead of saying
(08:02):
mothering is critical to thesurvival of our species and it's
such an important role.
But you can also have a choicenow, women, that you can have a
linear career and not havechildren, and that should also
be admirable and respectable.
And if you choose to mix it upand have both, you can do both
in life.
You just can't do them all atthe same time.
Well, so think of timing inlife and choose when you're
(08:24):
going to have these fabulouscareers outside the home and and
then be willing and courageousenough to step off that path to
care for your young and givethem all of you, and then be
willing to go back.
You know it, it it didn't again.
Sometimes, when movements aretrying to, they create an
(08:46):
extreme.
The pendulum swings very far.
So that's one of the thingsthat happened.
The other thing that happened, Iwould say, is advertising,
television.
The usually say technology.
Today, like Jonathan and Iwrote a book about technology, I
would say media, it was thebeginning of advertising and the
(09:10):
movie industry and televisionAgain, not to demonize it, it's
wonderful, I love watchingmovies.
It portrayed materialism and itportrayed economic prosperity
(09:31):
as the signs of success.
Right, so if you buy thisvacuum cleaner, you will be
modern, if you buy this newhouse and these new cars.
And that made people suddenlyfeel as if they were lacking and
that if they didn't have thecars and the vacuum cleaner and
the bigger house and if theydidn't look like supermodels and
(09:53):
like movie stars and have thebeautiful clothes, that they
were lacking and they weren'tmodern.
And so that then that precededsocial media and television.
Social media and technology thatwe see today.
And the problem with that is itwhet people's appetite in a way
for material success overrelational success.
(10:14):
So it was a combination ofsocietal things that said what
does it mean to be modern andwhat does it mean to be a modern
woman and to be modern?
You had to have all this stuff,and to have all this stuff you
have to go out to work and youhave to make lots of money and
that's right, you know so.
So sacrifice for relationshipswent out.
(10:34):
The window.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
That's right, which I think also puts so much
pressure on the dads at home,because in this new age, in the
new world where you have allthis stuff that's coming up, I
have to have the latest bag, Ihave to have the latest vacuum
In one income.
It's difficult to, you know,have all these things so it kind
(10:55):
of like pushed women into thesejobs and so that pushed these
children away as priority, Ithink, and I think that's what
you're explaining, which is sobeautifully said.
It is this stuff.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Also, gloria Steinem said, you know, she said go out
to work outside the home.
And again, you're not modern ifyou don't go out to work
outside the home.
So, and she didn't mentionanything about children.
She actually said children willbe just fine, Just find someone
to care for them, they'll allbe just fine.
Just find someone to care forthem, they'll all be just fine.
And she never had children.
So, um, she made that lineardecision to be a career woman
(11:31):
and she was very successful atit and whatever.
But she so what?
What got forgotten in all of it?
Uh, were children.
And what got forgotten is thejoy of mothering, because there
were a lot of women who lovedmothering, who were told that
they were insignificant and theyweren't modern.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
I wonder, from these talks and these podcasts that
you do.
Do you ever have women saying,well, that's not a choice, we
don't have that choice, we haveto work now.
And so what do you tell tothose families that kind of like
go against this, like nodaycare is not the best option?
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Not all women have the same choices.
We live in a country in America, I live in a country in America
that has very few choices forpoor women, and it's why I fight
for paid leave.
I mean, one of the reasons thatI go around and talk like I do
is to say you know, we are themost insensitive, uncivilized
(12:30):
country in the world other thanPapua New Guinea.
We're the only country that hasno paid leave.
We put capitalism andmaterialism and economic success
over families and relationship.
We talk a big game about beingfamily oriented.
We are not.
(12:51):
We do not like families, we donot like children.
You have to put your moneywhere your mouth is if you say
you do.
And we're very much intoparticularly the Republican
Party, but also, now you know,the Democratic Party too.
We're very much intoself-sufficiency, sort of the
pioneering spirit of America.
We should all be able to do iton our own, pull ourselves up by
(13:15):
our bootstraps and work hardand do it on our own.
We shouldn't lean on thegovernment or anybody else.
On our own, we shouldn't leanon the government or anybody
else.
Just independentself-sufficiency,
self-determinism, pioneeringspirit.
(13:35):
And the truth is that probablythe majority of people in
America do not have that ability.
They've been raised ingenerational poverty.
They are not, they do not haveaccess to education or
opportunities and they remain in.
Uh, if they do at work, theyremain in, you know, uh, very
low paying, uh minimum wagekinds of jobs and they can't
(13:57):
afford to to take off time whenthey have a child.
Neither one of them and manyfamilies work two and three jobs
just to be able to pay theirmortgage.
So you know, and that'sdifferent than the middle and
upper middle class and theaffluent class in America, there
is a working class in Americaand an impoverished class that
desperately needs to have paidleave.
(14:19):
And so this idea that we shouldall be self sufficient is part
of the pathology of our country,because self-sufficiency is
something that we can onlyachieve when we can lean on
others.
It's an offshoot, it is abyproduct and a developmental
byproduct of being able to bedependent.
(14:39):
So we have to be able to leanon others, including our
government, if we want toeventually be more independent
and self-sufficient.
So the idea that from birth youshould be self-sufficient.
So you know, again I'm going tosay, on the right, on the left,
they say you know, go women, goworking women, you know you go,
(15:01):
be part of the economy, competewith men, be out there.
So they have their own shtickabout it, which is, yes, we want
to give you three months ofpaid leave, but then we want you
to put your children ininstitutional care because you
women should go out and work.
So they don't really.
They don't really care aboutchildren.
On the right, they say theycare about children, but they
(15:22):
don't want to pay anything tosupport families with children,
and so then the idea is, ofcourse, we want you to stay home
, but we want you to do it onyour own, just stand on your own
feet, and that's just notrealistic for a good proportion
of this, a good percentage ofthis country or any other
country.
(15:42):
I mean, if you look at anycountry, they have paid leave
for a reason they do.
Even grandparents, people whowork in low paid jobs,
desperately need to have paidleave.
So we could even I mean, youknow, everybody talks about paid
leave should be universal.
I think in our country thatprobably is never going to
happen, but I do believe that itcould be needs based and I
(16:04):
believe that the people whoreally need it, not the people
who want it, so they can havetwo cars or take a vacation or,
you know, get a bigger house orum.
Uh, chris Rufo, who's at theManhattan Institute, said to me
uh, we were having aconversation and he said to me,
and he's very Republican, and hesaid you know, part of the
(16:26):
problem too is that people Ibelieve he said people people's
desires also increased.
So whereas people used to behappy with a 2000 square foot
house with four bedrooms,everybody just had a tiny space,
now the middle class has tohave a 3,000 square foot house
(16:47):
or a 4,000 square foot house andtwo cars not one car and take
two vacations a year and buy newclothes for their children
every school season.
When I was little, I used to goto Barnum and Bailey Circus with
my family and Madison squaregarden.
Then it was in Connecticut.
(17:07):
It it uh, in one of the kind ofbig kind of places in new Haven
.
I can't remember what it wascalled, um, but it like a
Madison square garden and Iremember it was big like the
elephants and the, but it was.
It was big but manageable.
I was little and it was big andthe noise was loud, but it was
(17:28):
exciting.
And as I got older and my kids.
I started taking my kids toMadison Square Garden for this,
for Barnum and Bailey Um.
What I noticed is it got bigger, louder, more overstimulating,
to the extent that I could nolonger take my children to the
circus and then the circus shutdown because no one was going to
(17:49):
the circus, because it got sobig and loud.
In the same way, we have grownin our greed as a nation in
terms of how much is enough, andthat's made it untenable for
even middle class families whoused to have choices.
So we do say housing isexpensive and all these things
(18:10):
are expensive.
It's true, but the truth of thematter is our greed is a big
part of it.
Not for very poor people, no,but for middle class, upper
middle class, wealthy people.
It's greed and we don't want tocall it greed, but it is greed.
We value our material successand pleasures over our children.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
I agree with you 100% , and a wise man once said
children are not expensive.
We are expensive.
That's right.
It's so true, that's right.
I think that if we can as asociety and I know it's kind of
hard to do and possibly mightnever happen, but if we can just
have this minimalist mentality,I think everything would be
(18:53):
manageable and we can stay homeand take care of our children,
Because daycare is also verypricey.
That's also a different expenseand there's a lot of myths,
yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
So people have been been told.
And again I blame this on thefeminist movement, because
daycare was part of the feministagenda, right, and it's part of
the capitalist agenda.
It's part of the DemocraticParty's agenda.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Which is that you know again, here we go.
The Republican Party doesn'tpush for daycare, they push for
families, but they don't want topay for families to be together
.
The Democratic Party says thatthey push for families, but they
want kids in daycare because,in the end, capitalism is more
important than children.
In both parties, capitalism ismore important than children and
(19:42):
that's really a problem.
But what?
The myth that spread aboutdaycare and started with the
feminist movement is that it'sgood for children, that it was a
failed experiment.
The idea of separating childrenfrom their parents long days,
(20:13):
long hours during the day andeven overnight was a failed
experiment.
It actually traumatizedchildren who needed attachment,
security to a primary attachmentobject their parents.
Right, and so we know that thisis a failed experiment.
But what's happened is it'sbeing promoted as being good for
children, that it helps them tobe smarter and get ready for
school, and it's called schoolin northern Europe.
(20:34):
I'm like it's not school, it isinstitutional care, at a time
when children shouldn't be ininstitutional care, and the myth
that somehow and it's good forchildren socially Children don't
interact with one another untilthey're about three.
They do something calledparallel play developmentally,
so it's not good for children.
(20:55):
It traumatizes children, itelevates their cortisol levels,
it makes them feel frightenedand it activates the stress
regulating parts of the brain ata time when that part of the
brain is supposed to remain very, very offline, and so it's not
(21:16):
good for children.
It's been shown that childrenwho are put into daycare have
higher levels of aggressionlater, and when they get to the
school years they also havehigher levels of distractibility
and higher levels of depressionand anxiety.
So, as we say in America,houston, we have a problem in
that it's gaslighting.
Parents is what it is, because Ihave parents come to me and say
(21:36):
we were told that our childrenwould get left behind, that it's
better for children to be, andRomania did this too.
Romania promoted the myth.
Cecefscu promoted the myth thatthe state could raise your
children better than you could,and it ended up with children
being put into orphanages.
(21:57):
Families who could have caredfor their own children believed
that they were doing what wasbest for their children by
putting them in state-runinstitutions, because the state
said we can raise your childrenbetter than you.
Now, this isn't telling parentsto put them into orphanages,
but when you tell parents to putchildren into daycare up to 10
(22:19):
hours a day.
You are basically telling themto put their children in
orphanages.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
So the myth that they learn how to play, they learn
how to socialize, they learn howto connect so that later on in
life they'll know how to playwith their siblings better.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
That's all false mother or a father, whoever is
the one who is their primaryattachment figure, usually the
mother.
It is through that intimate,trusting, safe, loving,
(22:56):
reassuring relationship, thatconsistent relationship, that a
child develops a deep sense ofsecurity and the ability to read
social cues of other children.
There was just a study thatcame out that there's been many
studies.
There was another one that cameout the other day that said you
know, by three years of agechildren have developed all the
(23:17):
mirror neurons so they canidentify the intentions of other
children.
Now if you put them in daycare,they never develop those
reading of social cues.
The reading of social cuescomes from your intimacy with
them, your empathy for them,your skin-to-skin contact, your
(23:42):
soothing them when they're indistress.
That safety and acknowledgementand understanding and
reassurance from moment tomoment in the first three years
with that primary attachmentobject, is the way that they
learn how to have closerelationships.
When you put them in daycare itcreates attachment disorders
(24:02):
which then interfere with andbecome obstacles to having
relationships.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
What are some of the developments that they learn
when they're with their mother,when the mother is nurturing
with them, so during those threeyears, so that, so the viewers
can understand.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
So mothers do a few very important things.
One is that they bufferchildren from stress.
They protect them from stresswith things like skin to skin
contact, eye contact, the toneof their voice, the soothing of
that mother from moment tomoment when the baby is in
distress.
It both regulates the child'semotions.
It keeps their emotions fromgoing too high or too low and it
(24:43):
also buffers that child fromstress, protects them from
stress and keeps the stressregulating part of the brain
offline for the first year.
So little incremental amounts ofstress are part of all baby's
lives.
I mean whether it's the motherlooks away for a moment or walks
to go to the bathroom for amoment, or there are moments of
(25:04):
or doesn't get they'll diaperchange quickly enough for is
hungry and has to wait a fewminutes.
There's always incremental bitsof stress, but nothing major.
So we say that minor tears inthe connection can be repaired.
Major tears are another thing.
So when you have a rupture in arelationship, it could be as
(25:28):
simple as the baby seeing themother look away for a moment.
But the mother then looks backat the baby and reassures the
baby and says oh honey, I see Ilooked away and you're sad, and
that is repairing the rupture.
But so we call them minormisunderstandings throughout the
day.
But when you leave a baby, itis not minor, it is major right.
(25:58):
And so buffering from stress,emotional regulation, teaching
babies how to read social cues,teaching them how to trust in
relationships overall.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
That's beautiful.
Does every child experience theattachment damages while
they're in daycare or it differs?
Every child is different.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Every child is different and that means that
they differ in terms of theirsensitivity to stress in the
environment.
So very sensitive children whoare more neurologically
sensitive.
It basically means they're moresensitive to stress.
And what we do know is thatmany babies are being born more
emotionally and neurologicallysensitive.
(26:32):
They're the babies who areharder to.
So that if you're fiscally andemotionally present for those
babies as much as possible, itneutralizes the expression of
(26:54):
that sensitivity in mentalhealth terms, but if you're not
present, it exacerbates it andit turns into things like ADHD,
depression, anxiety, forms ofaggression.
So when we are stressed as humanbeings, we go into fight or
flight mode essentially, and sowe're seeing more children in
fight or flight mode, whetherit's more aggressive children,
(27:17):
more distracted children, whichwe're labeling as ADHD, which is
just a symptom of stress, rightDistractibility.
These are depression andanxiety.
These are symptoms of theirresponses to stress, essentially
.
So we know that the babiesdiffer in terms of their
(27:37):
sensitivity.
Some babies can tolerate morestress.
Some babies less Little boysare generally more
neurologically sensitive.
We say that more little girls,more little boys are born in the
world, but fewer survive rightEverywhere in the world, and
that has to do with the factthat they are more sensitive to
(27:57):
stress in the environmentphysical stress, emotional
stress Even more than littlegirls.
They will get triggered and gointo a symptomatic state.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
This is the suffering that you're talking about, that
children suffer without theirmothers.
Are these that you just labeledsome of the symptoms that they
experience later on in life?
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Yes, I mean as a result of having attachment
disorders.
Different attachment disorderscorrelate with different forms
of mental illness.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
What do we see?
Speaker 1 (28:26):
more Depression.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Yeah, what do we see more?
Sorry, what do we see more likein little girls and little boys
later on, like I'm noticingboys with ADHD symptoms that are
just been you know misdiagnosedleft and right.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
Yeah, more depression in little girls, more
distractibility and aggressionin little boys.
But, that it's not not.
As a general rule, little girlscan be aggressive and
distractible, but generally morelittle boys are aggressive,
bite and hit, throw chairs.
Um, and more little boys uh areare are distractible, meaning
they go into flight, and morelittle girls go into a depressed
(29:02):
state.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
I want to go back to kind of uh, I know there's going
to be a lot of familieswatching this.
Um, I want to soothe themothers and fathers a little bit
, because they're going toprobably think that we're saying
never work, just stay home andtake care of your children.
Now, is there like a goodbalance that we can balance or
doesn't exist, so that we knowthat we're not damaging our
(29:24):
children?
Speaker 1 (29:25):
You know, balance is it is according to the
individual children that youhave.
So if you have more sensitivechildren, you have to pay
attention to that, meaning youcan't treat all of your children
the same.
Maybe you have one child whoyou can leave three hours a day
and the other child can't beleft at all because they go,
they freak out when you want,when you leave leave.
(29:52):
So it depends on the individualchild.
But what I would say is thatyou know more is more.
The more physically andemotionally you can be present,
or at least one primary parentcan be present from moment to
moment to soothe that baby whenthey're in distress and provide
them with a sense of security,the greater the chance that that
child will be mentally healthy.
So that means going back to aone working parent family.
(30:12):
You know, in a two parentfamily where one can stay home
or one works primarily outsidethe home and one works primarily
in the home.
That doesn't mean that the onethat works in the home can't
also have some part-time work.
But the idea of two full-timeworking parents, you can't.
(30:34):
Children are not self-cleaningovens, they just aren't.
They don't.
They don't raise themselves andyou can't expect someone else
to raise your, your children, tobe healthy, to, to, and you
can't expect that child to feelsafe if you haven't been with
them to provide that safety inthose early years.
(30:56):
So what we're not talking aboutin society is how do we get
back to a place where we canraise children with one person,
where we can raise children witha team approach?
Right, a team approach wasn't acompetitive approach.
Today, men and women competebecause the feminist movement
said you go out there and youbeat more men than men.
(31:18):
You beat the men at their owngame.
You can be more men than men.
And that's what they did.
They went out there, theyabandoned their children.
That generation of womendropped their children like
yesterday's old fish wrapped innewspaper.
This is true, yeah, and thosechildren were abandoned.
I call them the abandonedgeneration, the generation of
(31:39):
feminism.
They literally were dropped.
Wow, yes.
And then those women becamemothers and, because they were
traumatized and neglected, theythen raised their children and
dropped their.
I mean, this is generationalexpression, right, and so, yeah,
I mean I think the idea is ifwe could get back to a place
(32:00):
where, from a very early stagein our lives, we plan our life.
We don't plan our career, weplan our life and you teach your
daughters and your sons to plana life, not a career.
I have a son in medical schooland his girlfriend is in law
school and the kind of work thatI do they hear me all the time.
(32:23):
My family could probably get onthis podcast and be interviewed
by you and they'd be able tosay exactly the same thing,
because they've heard me.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
So much so how do you do that?
How do you have parents teachthat?
How did you do that?
How did you apply?
I have two kids.
I would love to learn.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
First I modeled, and I modeled when they were, when
they were little.
They were my priority.
I worked very little.
I worked a little bit outsidethe home, just enough to pay for
for me myself, to pay for ababysitter, not so I could leave
my children, but so that whenmy husband was at work and we
had three children it could betwo on three what we call zone
(33:01):
defense, because one on threewas tough.
My mother was ill and mysisters were preoccupied, so for
me to have another person likeextended family.
So I ended up hiring a 58 yearold woman who I loved, who
became like a grandmother, andAlba and I were together and we
would go to the park togetherand we would tag team together
(33:23):
and I would take two and shewould take one, and I would take
one and she would take two, andthen we would all be together.
But and then my husband wouldcome home and Alba would leave
and that it would be my husband.
So it's a team approach.
You see, it's not competitive.
So in those years it wasn't.
Can I make as much money as myhusband?
Can I?
Can I be as successful as him?
(33:44):
Can I be as narcissisticallypleased by my career.
It wasn't like that.
It was how little can I workand still be able to pay Alba,
but be primarily with mychildren, and so I love her name
?
Yeah, I was able to get awaywith a couple of hours a day of
work and it was enough to payAlba, and then we um, I didn't
(34:08):
ratchet back up my career untilmy children were in high school
and college.
So the idea is that and eventhen I made sure to be home when
my children were home and towork when they were in school.
So you know, the day is long,maybe not long enough for some,
but the day is long and you cando a lot of things in the day,
(34:30):
but you can work when yourchildren are at school and
that's ideally.
Eventually, that's the ideal formothers is to not have to work
when their children are home,but to work when their children
are working.
You know, maria Montessori saidchildren's work is school.
So when they're actually eightyears old, 12 years old, 14
(34:51):
years old, when they're atschool, you work.
And when they come home fromschool, and the ideal is to
create the illusion for yourchildren that you're sitting
home all day, twiddling yourthumbs, waiting for them to come
home.
Because my kids used to comehome when they were six, seven
(35:12):
years old and I picked them upat school at two and they would
come home and we'd bake cookiesand, you know, go to the park
and then make dinner and play.
And so they said to me, mommy,what did you do all day waiting
for me?
Because their illusion, theillusion, was I was waiting for
them.
They didn't know.
I was at my practice seeingpatients from nine to two, you
(35:36):
know, and then picking them up.
So the ideal is for women towork when their children work.
That is the ideal.
But when they're under three,children do not work, they play
and they need you.
Children do not work, they playand they need you.
And so more is more.
The more present you can be inthose years, the healthier your
(35:56):
children will be, and there'sjust no substitute for the time
you spend with them.
You know, I always say tomothers you can be physically
present and be emotionallychecked out.
You cannot be emotionallypresent if you are not
physically present.
Period, that is absolutely amyth.
Another myth, and some of thesemyths, which were like
(36:18):
gaslighting parents aboutchildren, really took hold of
our culture the myth thatdaycare is better for children
than being home with your mother, that quality time is as good
as quantity.
I don't know.
These myths grabbed hold of ourculture and I think now, the
(36:40):
ignorance in so many parentswhich is not their fault, the
lack of knowledge of what isactually good for children is
shocking to me Absolutely, and Ifeel and I see this all the
time too mothers are home, buttheir children are in daycare.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
I promise you, I see this all the time too.
Mothers are home, but theirchildren are in daycare.
I promise you, I see this sooften.
I know that it's this like me,me, me.
I want to have my own time.
I need my own time.
We're such a selfish society.
It's very selfish.
Yeah, the way you're talking.
(37:15):
It's so eloquent.
You express it so beautifullythat women need to prioritize
their children.
But how can we make or allowwomen to know or understand that
it is priority If we want thesechildren in law school, medical
school, what we're dreaming of,that I mean that takes a lot of
nurture and love and care toget them to that level.
(37:36):
You can't have a traumatizedkid going into all these.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
you know like healthy education and and will be
successful in their careers, butthey all recognize that, that
careers always have to comesecond to relationships, so says
I don't want to work all thetime.
I don't want to do that.
(38:21):
I want to be able to be with myfamily and my loved ones, and I
feel empty when I'm working allthe time.
You want your children to feelempty when they work all the
time.
You want them to feel full whenthey're with relationships that
they love.
You want them to feel full whenthey're with relationships that
they love.
And we've created the oppositeparadigm Feel full when you're
(38:41):
at work and feel empty whenyou're with your children.
It's the opposite.
We want them to feel full withtheir children and feel a little
empty.
So when mothers say to me I'mpreoccupied with my baby, I went
back to work too soon, buteverybody's telling me it'll get
better, I'm like no, I'm likeyou don't want it to get better,
(39:02):
you want to be preoccupied withyour young child.
So listen to this.
Society is telling you, isgaslighting you, is telling you
a myth, a lie.
You listen to your instincts.
It's called maternalpreoccupation and it's hormonal.
When we have a baby, we can'ttake our mind off the baby and
(39:25):
society says oh, don't worry,that'll go away If you just wait
, it'll just go away.
There was a line from I don'tknow if you know the play Our
Town by Thornton Wilder.
No, but it's my favorite play.
Uh, thornton Wilder is one ofthe great American playwrights
and he uh, there's a scene.
It's basically about a woman, awoman who passes away, young
(39:49):
woman who passes away and sheleaves a young family.
She dies in those days youcould die from the flu, you know
, turn of the century maybe andshe dies.
And it's a small town andthere's a scene in the graveyard
where all of her neighbors whohave passed away are sitting up
(40:09):
in their chairs in the graveyardand she comes in.
She's the newbie she's died andshe's coming into the graveyard
and she's mourning for the lossof her children and her husband
and her family and she's cryingand mourning and the people who
have passed say to her don'tworry, dear, this will pass and
(40:32):
you'll feel nothing.
You'll eventually feel nothing.
And I always think of thatscene because what we're asking
is that people's instincts die,that they disconnect from them,
like being in the graveyard ofinstincts where we tell them
don't worry, your feelings, foryour baby will die and you'll be
(40:56):
okay.
And it's disastrous forchildren.
Why do you think it'sdisastrous for children?
Well, when your own mother andyour father cannot feel empathy
towards your distress or pain orloss, then you are truly lost,
that's trauma, as Gabor says,it's trauma.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
Yeah, your first.
You know trauma is the safetynet that's been compromised.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
It is the trauma.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
Yeah.
So if the, if the families donot have a choice let's say
daycare is the only option otherthan daycare who else is safe
to leave the children with?
That's going to develop theattachments securely and
properly.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
Well, in my book, in order of appearance, I talk
about what's best for children.
And first and foremost, what'sbest for children is their
primary attachment figure.
Usually their mother could betheir father.
Today we know that next bestwould be kinship bonds.
(41:58):
So kinship bonds aregrandmothers, aunts, um, uh, you
know, sisters that are caringfor your, for your children, um,
and that's the next best,because those people have the
the most similar investmentemotionally in your children and
will be in your children'slives forever.
(42:19):
So, like an aunt, I rememberwhen my kids were in preschool,
at about four, there was afamily who, a Latino family, who
had brought the sister in lawover from you know whether it
was Columbia or and she becamethe caregiver because the mother
worked and she was thecaregiver, uh, and so you know
(42:41):
she lived with the family butshe was the aunt and she wasn't
going anywhere.
She was going to be the aunt forlife.
Now, sad for the mother thatAuntie Maria was going to be
closer to those children thanthe mother, because the mother
was a banker and worked fulltime.
But Auntie Maria was going tobe the one who sued them when
they were in distress andprobably, at the end of the day,
(43:02):
I never really asked.
I'm guessing the babies did notwant to go back to the mother
but wanted to sleep with AuntieMaria.
So you have to know when yougive that role away to a
grandmother or an aunt, you aregiving it away.
You are giving it away.
You are giving something veryprecious away that you will
never get back.
Do not give that role awayunless you are desperate, okay.
(43:27):
Second, after kinship bonds,would be a single surrogate
caregiver, a really goodbabysitter who, or nanny who,
becomes like extended family.
If you really don't haveextended family, then hire
extended family and make surethat that person can stay in
your children's lives for 18years so they're the closest.
(43:50):
So Alba is still in our lives.
So you know the idea that thosepeople remain in your
children's lives likegrandmothers and aunts, right,
they're not disposable in anyway and they should not be
treated like hired help becausethey are more like family.
Okay, afford it.
(44:18):
So daycare, as you say, is quiteexpensive.
Sharing a caregiver with yourbest friend saying, jane, let's
share this babysitter, let'sshare Alba, I'll pay for half of
Alba's salary, you pay for theother half and she can spend
half of the days in my apartmentand half of the days in your
apartment and that way ourchildren know each other's homes
like they're their own homesand they feel then comfortable
(44:38):
and they have one caregiverwho's taking care of two
children.
Remember, the ratios in daycarewith strangers are no less than
five to one, usually eight toone.
You're putting fiveone-year-old children or less,
five children with one caregiverand and so I challenge any
(44:58):
mothers listening to this, orfather to think about caring for
five children and to see howwould your patience level be,
how would your love level be,how would your ability to soothe
them when they're in distress,how would your relatability and
intimacy be?
And the answer is no.
The answer is no, just no.
(45:20):
So it's this weird disconnectin families.
Parents say oh, I can give mychild to this super caregiver.
She's a super caregiver, she'sbetter than me, she can handle
five children at once.
She's not better than you, andshe can't handle five children
at once.
And so what you're doing isyou're putting your child in an
(45:42):
environment where they're goingto be neglected.
Speaker 2 (45:45):
I agree with you.
And there's, you know,something even deeper than that
is when it's your child.
Okay, you have three kids athome, but there's this different
level of empathy and sympathythat you have for your kids.
So when your child is crying orwhen they fall, you still might
be anxious, you might be angryand frustrated, but you're still
(46:07):
able to nurture that child,your child.
Versus a super babysitter or adaycare worker.
They're not going to have thatsame level of empathy and
sympathy that you have for yourkids.
I think a lot of parents miss tounderstand that as well.
It's a little different.
What age is okay to put kids inschool?
(46:32):
We know that.
You know those three years areextremely crucial for their
developments.
Is four okay?
Speaker 1 (46:40):
Daycare is under three, yeah, after three.
In this country we call itpreschool.
In other parts of the worldthey call it preschool at a year
.
Okay, preschool is not.
A year old is not preschool.
A year old is institutionalcare.
A child cannot be in school.
There's no school.
(47:01):
It's not school.
And again, that's gaslighting.
Again, because it's teachingparents that your children need
to be in school.
They're going to be moresuccessful.
No, I mean, children neednurturing, they need play, they
need to be close to their sourceof security.
That's it.
They don't need school.
(47:23):
And it isn't school until aboutthree.
And even at three it's stillgot to be play-based, because
their left brains are not readyto handle the frustration of
cognitive development untilthey're about five or six.
So you know, they learn theircolors and they learn.
So is it okay to have them sitin circle time?
(47:44):
Sure, for a few minutes, butanything more than that, where
you make them learn numbers andletters, you are forcing, you
are cramming cognitivedevelopment into a child's brain
who cannot handle thefrustration yet.
Well, it's to impress theparents, but it will backfire.
I agree, because if you try todevelop the cognitive part of
(48:06):
the brain, the left brain,before the social, emotional
part of the brain.
The brain rejects, eventuallyrejects it and cannot learn,
shuts down.
You need to put your socks onbefore your shoes, and your
socks is social, emotionaldevelopment.
That is attachment, security,play, and then you can
(48:30):
incrementally, when you get toprimary school you can start to
learn academically, but veryslowly and incrementally before
the age of five, between threeand five.
It's really it needs to beplay-based and that's another
myth.
We tell parents that we can,you know, we can give children
(48:50):
cognitive skills.
That's right, you can, you can,you can, but it will backfire.
That's right, you can, you can,you can, but it will backfire.
And what are the studies allshow?
The studies all show thatchildren who are social,
emotionally sensitively raisedin the first five years do much
better in terms of cognitive andacademic development later on,
(49:12):
whereas the children who areforce fed cognitive skills at
too early an age struggle withlearning later on.
Speaker 2 (49:20):
That's a very powerful study, because I've
seen three-year-olds say things,do things and I'm just like,
how is this possible?
But I think again, going backto what I was saying, a lot of
these daycares will force thison their kids because they want
to impress the parents.
Look what your children can do.
(49:40):
This is, you know, your moneyis going into the right place.
And it's unfortunate becausethose kids, yeah, they fall out.
They don't want to learnanymore when they're like five,
six, seven years old.
It's unbearable pressure.
I have a question,no-transcript.
(50:09):
Well, I mean, the truth is thatwe what did you do?
I learned from you.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
So floor time is critical with little ones.
So, we're putting a blanketfloor time, yeah, and so every
day should have a period of timethat we call floor time, which
is that you just sit on thefloor and they sit on the floor
and you have lots of toys andyou, you know, rotate, rotate
the toys so they stay interestedin, curious and stimulated, and
(50:38):
you just sit on the floor andyou know, admire them as they
pick up objects and put them intheir mouth, because that's how
they learn when they're littleand that they're, you know,
shaking things and things lightup, and you know, and you, and
it's the wonder and the awe oflearning about the world through
physical exploration andobjects.
So babies learn about the worldthrough physical exploration
and objects.
So babies learn about the worldthrough objects.
(50:59):
There are toy companies now,like Loverly or Love Every or
whatever it's called that youknow that really focus on
developmental toys, things thatstimulate babies.
But the idea is that any object,you know, in the old days you
didn't need things to light up,you didn't need things to make
sounds.
You know, kids had spoons andpots and they would take a spoon
(51:20):
and hit the pot, you know, andmake a musical instrument.
So the idea is that they learnthrough objects and exploration
of their physical world.
That's how they learn, and so,sitting on the floor and just
being in awe of them as theylearn about the world, take the
pots out of the kitchen drawerand the spoons and things that
they can't.
(51:41):
I mean no knives and forks,please, but you know spoons and
pots.
And you know all kinds of thingsin the kitchen that are just
non-harmful, innocuous objects.
They learn about the worldthrough objects and physical
exploration.
So just being with them asthey're learning about the world
, introducing them.
Look at the spoon and if I hitit on the pot it goes boom, boom
(52:04):
, boom.
And giving it to them andsaying you do boom, boom Toys in
the home.
Speaker 2 (52:08):
No Things that you already have.
Speaker 1 (52:10):
Yeah, yeah, so you don't need to go out and spend
thousands of dollars on toys.
I mean, have toys gotteninteresting?
Yes, I mean, but you don't needto spend thousands of dollars
on toys.
I've traveled all over theworld and I've seen that
(52:30):
children have what we calltransitional objects, poor
situations.
I was trekking in Vietnam andthere was a little boy in the
poorest mountain village and hehad a teddy bear.
That was not a teddy bear, itwas a piece of corn wrapped in a
knitted piece of fabric, asmall piece of fabric that his
mother knit and she wrapped itaround the corn and he held that
(52:53):
wrapped piece of corn and thatwas his teddy bear.
So it's not about being fancyand it's not about fancy classes
that you take your children to.
I mean, it's just about beingin awe of how they learn about
the world.
Speaker 2 (53:12):
And give them time also right, not expecting your
kid to be I don't know what atage three.
I think we also have to havepatience for their learning
process.
Yeah, and there's also thislike comparison with mothers and
their kids like so-and-so is,you know, knows how to count now
and say colors, and you don't.
It's so unfortunate.
I see so much, so much of that.
(53:33):
I grew up in the Soviet timesand I'm from I'm Armenian, so I
was.
When I was growing up inArmenia, I had the one little
teddy bear.
That wasn't that teddy bear andI had so much love for that
little toy.
But now it's just so manythings that I think like.
Also, it teaches them value,material, it's material, it is,
it's they have their ownplayrooms and, yeah, it's
(53:56):
material, it's all material.
Speaker 1 (53:59):
Yeah, yeah, we've exchanged love and presence for
materialism, and that's really ashame.
Speaker 2 (54:05):
Thank you so much for today.
I mean, you've literallycovered.
I had 25 questions but you justcovered everything so perfectly
.
I didn't even have to ask you.
You talked about them sobeautifully.
I appreciate you, I appreciateyour work and I love everything
that you're doing and I wishthat really moms can take
(54:29):
example of that, because it's someaningful, because we are, we
are raising tomorrow society.
All of this matters Because weare, we are raising tomorrow's
society.
All of this matters.
Then, you know, you have peopleacting wrong and doing horrible
things and we wonder where isthat stemming from?
It's moms?
You know we have to takeresponsibility for that.
So thank you, thank you fortoday.
Speaker 1 (54:56):
Thank you.
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