Tigran Vartanyan | Masculinity, Men's Mental Health, Gender Norms | The Edit Alaverdyan Podcast #37 - The Edit Alaverdyan Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Fixing means make him , or make him or her to change
his behavior, so it stops beinga problem for me.

Speaker 2 (00:07):
When a 17-year-old is given so much freedom, he's not
going to know what to do withthat freedom.
You cannot give a mediocreclass from Arkansas $360 million
.
He's not going to know how tomanage that money.

Speaker 1 (00:18):
The woman who chooses the typical, you know, macho
man who, let's say that is greatprovider and all of that things
, will still complain that thisman is not available.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
Where can men go to speak freely like that?
I don't feel well.
I have anxiety.
Today I'm sad.
You know I've been feelingdepressed.
There's not enough places likethat for men to go, whether it's
your wife, whether it's yourfriends, because you have this
image that you need to keep.

Speaker 1 (00:45):
You see relationships of people like they are 50, 60
year old changing absolutely,like it's 180 degrees shift.
They connect more, they talkmore.
The woman feels safer now witha man who is not emotionally
absent.

Speaker 2 (00:58):
I've had patients who said this to me I'm weak, I
don't have the strength to killmyself, so I'm just going to let
my eating disorder kill me.
And they have succeeded.

Speaker 1 (01:08):
I have heard both things Boys don't cry and this
thing of a woman shouldn'tcomplain.
That's also something.
Now, why are we so obsessedwith shutting down somebody's
emotions?

Speaker 2 (01:31):
Hello everyone, thank you for joining me today.
Today's episode was the longestepisode we've had on the Edith
Oliverdian podcast three hoursand 17 minutes and a
conversation could have gone onif I didn't stop it.
I'm talking about a licensedmarriage and family therapist my
first male therapist on theshow, digran Vartanian.

(01:53):
Digran is such an importantasset to the community of all
Armenian Americans and or anyculture in general that wants to
learn.
He's fascinating, incrediblywell-seasoned and such a
knowledgeable individual.
I loved our conversation today.
We dived into men's mentalhealth, a topic that I've been

(02:15):
meaning to have with you guysfor such a long time, and I
genuinely wanted to do it withsomeone that works with men.
So we talked about mendepression, intimacy with men
that works with men.
So we talked about mendepression, intimacy with men,
men's mental health in general,anxieties and anger.
We dived into a lot ofpolitical topics.
We kind of like drove away frommen's mental health, dived into

(02:35):
politics.
We dived into school systeminclusivity which is happening
in the world today,transgenderism.
We talked about philosophy.
We talked about psychology.
It was such an amazingconversation and I know that
from this conversation you guysare going to pick up so much
information.
So definitely watch the podcast.

(02:56):
Definitely reach out to Tigranif you need any therapy services
, because he's amazing, has hisown private practice in Pasadena
, and what's fascinating abouthim is that he speaks multiple
language, including Spanish.
And something reallyinteresting about him is that he
received his education inArgentina, which is incredibly

(03:17):
extensive and very detailed.
So he's been in school hiswhole life and he's just such a
fascinating individual to have aconversation with.
Honestly, he was just flowingso freely and I think you guys
are really going to be surprisedand really elevated with this
podcast.
So stay tuned.
You're going to be hooked tothe TV for sure, because Stigran

(03:39):
has some amazing points andthere was a little bit of debate
with him and I aboutChristianity, about church,
about the transgenderismmovement.
We did debate each otherrespectfully, but it was
actually a really fun debatewhich I think you guys will look
forward to.
Thank you for joining me, makesure to subscribe and follow,
and I appreciate you guys.
Hi, tigran, it's so nice tohave you on my show today.

Speaker 1 (04:00):
Thank you.
Thank you for having me.

Speaker 2 (04:02):
Absolutely.
It's an honor.
I adore your work and yourpurpose and I really appreciate
you being here today.

Speaker 1 (04:08):
Thank you, thank you.

Speaker 2 (04:08):
Absolutely.
Today I was actually reallylooking forward to speaking to a
licensed clinician, a therapist, about men's mental health.
I've covered so many episodesabout mothers and marriage and I
haven't really covered men yet,and their well-being.
In your practice.

(04:30):
What is your perspective aboutthe mental health challenges of
men?
Are there Because they're verysilent about it.

Speaker 1 (04:38):
Yes, they are Right.
Like any other person, anyother gender.

Speaker 2 (04:43):
I love how you have to say every other person.

Speaker 1 (04:46):
Well, because it's been a topic that has been
neglected for the lack of abetter word, right, and perhaps
it is related to the historybehind psychology.
You know it started Freud with,like her, his hysterics, right
that all women, but he had somemale clients too, I would say.

(05:08):
Now I would see cross cultures,armenian cultures, latino
cultures right, there is still ataboo about it.
Like, being in therapy is avulnerable process.
It's a process where you talkabout the most intimate things
that perhaps you haven't talkedto anybody else in your life
your partner, your wife, yourwhoever.

(05:29):
That is right.
Yes, so you're opening up andtalking about feelings, doubts,
hesitations that you have inyour life, regrets, right,
questions, and I don't thinkthat we culturally accept that
men can have those questions.

(05:50):
Men can think, worry, fear stuffright, because those are not
traits that are associated tomanhood.
So I see that a lot it'schanging.
I know a lot of good therapistswho are promoting and
advocating for men's mentalhealth, which is amazing, but I

(06:12):
do see that there is a lot ofstill challenges related to the
context.
I see men and the families likeyou're not crazy, why are you
going to this therapist?
It's just taking your moneyright and it's so hard to
explain Like I'm hurting.
I need this place for me andthat's not always received in

(06:32):
the best way.

Speaker 2 (06:38):
I can see that have been portrayed to be the primary
breadwinner, the winners of thefamily, the rooster of the
family, and I want to know whathas changed, because there's a
slight shift in men nowadays andyou're right, they are feeling

(07:00):
a little bit more vulnerable.
Why is it that thevulnerability is coming out now,
versus years and years before?
I mean, I don't think that ourgrandfathers had it any easier
than we do.
I think that, if anything,their lives were much harder,
but they weren't breakable.

Speaker 1 (07:18):
What do you think is happening there?
And we are paying the price,right.

Speaker 2 (07:22):
As the next generation.

Speaker 1 (07:23):
As the next generation.

Speaker 2 (07:24):
How do you think we're paying the price?
Right as the next generation,as the next generation, how do
you think we're paying the price?

Speaker 1 (07:26):
We all grew up with this.
You know father figure,grandparents, strong working
12-hour shifts, you know, andnot complaining, but perhaps
drinking too much, Perhaps beinga little bit aggressive towards
the wife, Kids too.
Kids too, perhaps, being alittle, bit aggressive towards
the wife, perhaps kids too,perhaps being, you know, too

(07:48):
much outside of home, notwanting to, perhaps not.
You know we called it respect,but there was genuine fear of oh
daddy's home, he's tired, let'skeep his, you know, down.

Speaker 2 (08:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (08:03):
I don't think they weren't suffering.
I think there wasn't space forthem to express any of that.
What has changed?
I think we have seen that.
First of all, I mean great forthe guy who can be the sole
breadwinner of a house.
Successful, right, Right.
Most of the cases, that'simpossible in here.

Speaker 2 (08:26):
Yeah, yeah, right like almost around, almost
around the world.

Speaker 1 (08:29):
I would say true, true so that has changed and
also it has changed that, um,there is a need for the partner
to, for to to connectemotionally.
You mean the man in therelationship both right, like I
see this, a lot men comingbecause the wife is complaining,
right, uh, I don't know what'sgoing on.

(08:50):
I'm fine, I'm doing the thingsthat I have done all my life.
Like I work so hard, I bringthe money and she keeps
complaining.
What's going on?
oh, very objectified, right veryI say, well, okay, so what do
you think is going on right?
Like, what is the problem?
If you are doing everythingthat you should be doing, why
isn't this person you knowfeeling connected to you?

(09:13):
Or what do you think?
Are you happy in yourrelationship?
Are you satisfied with yourlife?
Well, no, I'm tired, I'mexhausted and I feel like I'm
being judged constantly.

Speaker 2 (09:22):
Nagged right as they say yeah, my wife nags me.

Speaker 1 (09:26):
Right and okay.
So you have a need there thatdoesn't respond to your role as
a provider.
You need support.
You need your wife toacknowledge your hard work.
You need your wife to see thatwhat you're doing is out of love
, not out of something else,right?

Speaker 2 (09:46):
Like an obligation or something Right.

Speaker 1 (09:49):
And so this could be like one specific example.
It's so unique case by case,right, but I think overall,
what's happening is that theculture has changed.
Everything has evolved.
Women crave more intimacy fromtheir men.
Men are acknowledging that.
They crave that too yes and nowthey can voice it.

(10:12):
The problem also comes up whenyou see this kind of like very
traditional gender roles in arelationship and then they come
to therapy, or he comes totherapy.
He said, said well, now I'mchanging, I'm more open, I'm
connecting, and she cannot takeit, so I don't understand.
It's always a lose-losesituation.

Speaker 2 (10:34):
She cannot take it because she doesn't feel as
strong like the man's stronganymore.
Because sometimes women, I feellike, can view vulnerability as
a weakness in men.
Yeah, I mean, she grew up witha dad that was not like that
more.
Because sometimes women, I feellike vulnerability as weakness
in men.

Speaker 1 (10:44):
Yeah, I mean, she grew up with a dad that was not
like that, a grandparent that anuncle, a big, you know older
brother, yeah, and this man issaying something about his
emotions, um, which isconsidered like a feminine thing
, right?
Oh, you know today's world.

(11:04):
Yeah, right like why?
Why is that?
I mean, I don't want to get toomuch into that conversation
which is a big thing, thecultural aspect, the systemic
aspect, but, like the immediateexperience is, I'm working so
hard in therapy, healing mytrauma, to kind of please my

(11:25):
wife and to connect her in thelevel that she wants me, and now
she's complaining about that,right, and the reality is that
most of the time theserelationships have been going
for years and years and yearsand it has been the wife nagging
the husband for not beingemotionally intelligent, yeah,

(11:45):
and now he's changing.
But the entire relationship hasto shift to accept this new
kind of man, right, but I thinkonce they can process that, you
see relationships of people likethey are 50, 60 year old
changing absolutely, like it's180 degrees shift.

(12:07):
They connect more, they talkmore, they support each other
more.
Suddenly.

Speaker 2 (12:19):
And the woman feels safer now with a man who is not
emotionally absent?
I was just going to ask youthis question because we're two
therapists having thisconversation, which is quite
interesting to me.
When there is this shift in theman let's just say it's a macho
man in a relationship thatdecides to be emotionally
connected, goes through therapy,learns emotional intelligence

(12:39):
to a certain extent and is nowemotionally available, what are
the qualities that he's going toprovide in the relationship
from this emotional intelligenceversus the absence Versus the
absence.

Speaker 1 (12:50):
Well, what happens when a woman because men and
women, we are equally productsof the same system, right?
So if you're going to say thatthe man was a product of a
machista society, like apatriarchal society, then women

(13:11):
are too right.
It's not about the sex.
We are all in different waysshaped and, let's call it,
oppressed or whatever, by thesame system.
So if the woman wants toconnect emotionally, usually

(13:33):
right, in these traditionalfamilies we are talking like
Armenian families, middleEastern families, right, latino
families sometimes many timestheir go-to person is not their
partner.
Their go-to person is mom,their, their, their partner.
Their go-to person is mom,sister, friends.
Why?
Because they talk to theirhusband and that is like I don't
have time for this, or, right,like what, what do you want me

(13:55):
to do with this?
I don't, I don't know how toempathize with you oh, that's a
big word, yeah because I canwell, maybe they can the pain,
but I would say like there areequal responsibilities there
where the emotionalunavailability of the man makes
a woman choose other resourcesand that splits the relationship

(14:17):
.

Speaker 2 (14:18):
Yes, I agree with you on that piece.

Speaker 1 (14:19):
Right and they become more distant, more strangers.

Speaker 2 (14:25):
They do.
Advice from other people candefinitely, you know, tarnish
the relationship, because noteveryone's advice works for your
relationship.

Speaker 1 (14:32):
Not even advice, just listening to each other.

Speaker 2 (14:34):
Absolutely Right.

Speaker 1 (14:35):
That's a big piece.

Speaker 2 (14:37):
It is so when men are more emotionally available.
Yes, I do, emotionallyavailable.
Yes, I do see a big shift inthe next, the two generations,
our generation and the nextgeneration.
Vulnerability is not asrespected.
Women want the more macho man,but now the macho men are

(15:00):
complaining that.
No, we want to be morevulnerable because our mental
health matters too.

Speaker 1 (15:06):
Okay, I think some women want the macho.

Speaker 2 (15:10):
Not all.
We're not generalizing, yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:13):
Some women want that.
Perhaps again, because they arealso a byproduct of certain
values, certain things right,and to be clear, when I'm
talking about these culturalthings, ideological, you know I
think there's like amisunderstanding of we can
totally understand that and freeourselves or whatever.

(15:35):
This is what our unconscious is.
A woman and I have met thiskind of people in my life a very
dear friend of mine, she's afeminist activist, she, you know
, she's very, very smart, verybright person and yet for some
reason she chooses veryoppressive partners constantly.

(15:58):
Cognitively, she knows it's aproblem.
But, unconsciously,unconsciously, she keeps
choosing for that right.
But going back to your questionof what happens if the man is
becoming more vulnerable and thewoman don't like that, Because
there's a different level ofvulnerability, Digran.

Speaker 2 (16:19):
You know, I feel like it's different because it's so
easy not for every man, Again,we're not generalizing, right
but when people tend to be alittle bit more vulnerable, they
can fall into that victim chairreally quickly from the
vulnerability I feel like.
And so I feel like there has tobe like a good balance because

(16:40):
essentially, to like beingconservative, but I'm also very
mindful Like I feel like, yeah,women's friendship is so
important because it's veryhealth-based.
Right Like we need women.
When they talk to each other,they talk to each other
face-to-face, eye-to-eye contact.
Some men can communicate witheach other just with a beer

(17:00):
bottle and just lookingelsewhere.
Right Like, women's friendshipsare more health.
I feel like it's more forhealth purposes.
Men can be just likeconversational, but
vulnerability, I feel like can Idon't know, this is just my
personal perspectiveVulnerability can sometimes

(17:21):
tarnish a man's manhood in a way.
If it's not into a more likevictim state versus, because it
can take away a lot of the truenature of a man.
What you are okay.

Speaker 1 (17:36):
Yeah, you're using strong words.

Speaker 2 (17:38):
Uh, true, nature of a man yeah um because the nature
of a man, from my perspective,is to be that provider right so
what do you do with these menwho are artists?

Speaker 1 (17:49):
photographs those are providers what if they don't
make money?

Speaker 2 (17:52):
I mean, does a provider have to be like
objectified, like financial?

Speaker 1 (17:56):
only can it be if he doesn't provide money with the
safety yeah so if you have likea short small guy who is not
strong, I have met plenty ofpartners as I yeah right, so
what happens?

Speaker 2 (18:05):
I mean, you're in a short small guy who is not
strong.

Speaker 1 (18:06):
I have met plenty of partners as I.
Yeah Right, so what happens?
I mean, you're getting tosomething really good, which is
we have fixed ideas of what aman is.

Speaker 2 (18:15):
You think so?

Speaker 1 (18:16):
Of course.
But you're telling me a man,you know I don't want to kind of
like, I'm not going to evenname him, no no, no, no, no, no,
no, no please.
No, but you know, in socialmedia you have this kind of like
very stereotypical man.
What is an alpha man?
I'm not going to name him.

Speaker 2 (18:35):
I can tell you don't like him.

Speaker 1 (18:36):
That's why no, because it's harmful.
See, I have nothing personalagainst him.
Jordan Peterson, any of thesepeople, right, and it's not like
I am more leftist, or it's notabout that.
It's about discourses haveimpact.
They shape our identity.

(18:56):
So if you have a discoursewhere whatever doesn't fit the
role of a powerful manfinancially, physically, you
know whatever that is, butemotionally, emotionally is not
something that we qualify as apowerful man, you know.
Being emotionally there for aperson for some reason, you mean

(19:19):
vulnerable, Not vulnerable.

Speaker 2 (19:21):
Emotionally there for a person.

Speaker 1 (19:22):
Emotionally supporting a person right.
What we are doing is, well, whathappens with all these men who
don't fit that narrative?
Then there is that sensation ofemasculation.
Right Now I am feeling weakbecause I don't fit the
narrative of the provider manwho makes money, and I mean,

(19:47):
let's agree that we see that alot, especially in our culture A
man who makes money isconsidered much more of a man
than a man who is notfinancially so successful Not
for everybody, but there is athing about money and power,
right.
In the same way, I think thatthese discourses can leave out a

(20:12):
lot of the men that don't fullyfit this narrative.
These discourses can bereplicated by their moms, their
partners, their sisters, theirfriends.
So what you see is people, men,constantly trying to fit an

(20:34):
image.

Speaker 2 (20:35):
What image do you think that is?

Speaker 1 (20:37):
The image of the macho men, perhaps the image of
the financially successful men,the image of the strong men who
can.
If somebody messes with mygirlfriend, you know I'm going
to and to me that's childish.

Speaker 2 (20:49):
Yes, that's not, that's not see.
I think that also to add towhat you're saying.
I know that we're on somethingreally important here.
It's going to be aphilosophical conversation.
Um, you're, I have to agreewith you in a sense that in
there's so much changing thatthe, the perception of men, is
classified very differently now,like a certain height, a

(21:12):
certain look, a certain car,maybe Um and um, the man being
sensitive is not really accepted.
So what I'm talking about isthere, there.
There are men out there thatare not your six foot guy,
they're maybe your five footfour, and they are mechanics.
They come home with dirty, oilyfingers but they're real men.

(21:34):
So it's not really image base,it's really what you carry with
you, what you put out there.

Speaker 1 (21:42):
But it would be my error of asking this man, right,
how do you feel when,everywhere you sit on a table,
you are a very you know, honest,worker, honest guy, you're
doing your best to provide foryour family, you're doing your
best to, you know, have ahealthy life, and you're on a

(22:03):
table and there is somebody whois fortunate enough to be
financially much more successfulthan you and you feel yourself
like you are invisible, like youfeel yourself smaller, you feel
yourself like weak, less of aman, right, not necessarily
because the rich guy ishumiliating you or anything like
that yeah, maybe a little bitof jealousy here and there,

(22:26):
perhaps.

Speaker 2 (22:26):
Comparison For sure.
Why not, that's healthy.

Speaker 1 (22:29):
It is a thing.
Yeah, I mean, we all compareourselves to others, but these
are the moments where somebody'smanhood can be at play.

Speaker 2 (22:41):
Like in danger.

Speaker 1 (22:42):
I would say it's very yeah, I mean we could use that
word.
I think it's very back toFreud's like phallocentric kind
of idea, right, what determineswhat is a man?
I mean it will be moremasculinity and femininity.
But, like, without getting intothat, there are certain things,
certain categories that a manhas to kind of show certain

(23:09):
performance, certain thing forhim to feel like OK, you know,
I'm a good man.
It's an interesting questionbecause what we are talking
about here it's kind of likethat conflict that has been
there for years and years andyears.
Right, the woman who choosesthe typical, like men, you know,

(23:36):
macho men who, let's say thatis great provider, and all of of
those things, will stillcomplain that this man is not
available, right, but it's hardto say.
It's so case by case I'mtalking, and I'm thinking about

(23:58):
specific examples.
On the other hand, you havewomen who have a man who is
vulnerable, and not becauseyou're vulnerable, you're not
going to be successfulfinancially, right, but you're
vulnerable, you're a workingclass man and you have women
that truly appreciate andconnect with this man and not
for a second they doubt thatthis is not a real man.

Speaker 2 (24:21):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (24:22):
Right.
But we feel kind of threatenedwhen cultural values change,
because we are very attached toour ideas of what a man is, what
a woman is, what they should do, what they shouldn't do.
Those things are so rigid inour mind that anything outside
of that we want to attack anddestroy and criticize.

Speaker 2 (24:44):
Because I feel like it's worked.
Like, look earlier when we weretalking about, like our
grandparents and our dads andyeah, I have to agree with you
that they worked a lot and maybethey were absent fathers and
yeah, maybe they beat our momsand beat us too, which happened
to a lot of families,indo-european or not like we got
a beating, but that's somethingthat the next generation has to

(25:08):
take away with right Likesomething to learn from that and
then just find that balance.
You can be a very vulnerableman.

Speaker 1 (25:19):
But my question is how far can that vulnerability
go?
You feel like they arevictimizing themselves now more
like men.

Speaker 2 (25:22):
Yes, 100% Because and I'm not just for the side of
women, I'm on the side of menand women coming together and
forming a healthy family andbeing happy.
But from people that I've seenI'm 40 years old from people
that I've worked with friendshipthat I've had.
Men tend to be incredibly weaknowadays and that's classified

(25:46):
as vulnerability is somethingdifferent.

Speaker 1 (25:48):
I don't even use that word, that much I mean I would
use it today.
No vulnerability.
Yeah, like Because there is anidea that I use openness.

Speaker 2 (25:57):
right, because when you, we can use that Okay.

Speaker 1 (25:59):
Right, because when you use vulnerability, it means
that it's attached to weakness.
It's attached to something badis going to happen to you.

Speaker 2 (26:06):
Somebody can understand like that, I see what
you're saying, okay.

Speaker 1 (26:09):
But I mean, you get the point.
The idea of vulnerabilityimplies that now you can get
hurt more easily, and I don'tknow why would that happen?

Speaker 2 (26:24):
Are you the vulnerable type of a man?
Are you open in yourrelationship?
Yeah, I'm pretty open, are you?
Comfortable with that.

Speaker 1 (26:31):
Yeah, I mean, I have my blind spots right, but sure I
try to be.
When you are in a relationshipand your partner is not open to
talk, to discuss things, you seesomething right?
You see, okay, his eyes lookdifferent today.

(26:54):
His tone of voice is a littlebit different.
He seems more silent.
He seems, you know something isoff and he's not telling you
what's going on.
Why?
Because he's a man you know andhe's not telling you what's
going on.
Why?
Because he's a man you know andhe doesn't have to be
vulnerable.
You kind of are in this likevoid of thousands of millions of

(27:17):
questions that can cross yourmind.
He's thinking about somebodyelse.
He's worried about money.
He's worried about his health.
He's about you know.
Or he's worried about money.
He's worried about his health,he's about you know.
Or he's angry at me, or like hedoesn't love me anymore, or
he's unhappy, you don't know.

Speaker 2 (27:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (27:33):
You don't know, and I think that the idea of being
open and talking about emotionsshouldn't be equal to being
weaker, because one thing thatwe all can perhaps agree in the
field of mental health is thatwe see a symptom, a sign of

(27:53):
something is wrong, right.
Nowadays, I know thatpsychology is very obsessed with
symptoms and getting rid ofsymptoms right, so they shut it
down Medication, whatever it is,you know 100% yeah, but the
symptom has been, and always hasbeen, a sign that something
else is going on right.
You have a fever.

(28:13):
We have to figure out.
Is it COVID?
Is it the flu?
Is it just sun?
What's going?

Speaker 2 (28:18):
on.
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (28:19):
If I get rid of your fever.
How do I know that I have fixedthe problem right, fixed the
problem?
So my point is usually symptomshave been a product of
repressed emotions, things thatwe haven't been able to talk

(28:39):
about, things that we havetalked but nobody heard.
You know emotions that weexperienced.
And again, armenian culture.
You know the adults are talking.
The little guy comes in andwants to say, says a joke or
something, and they just shamehim in front of everybody.

Speaker 2 (28:59):
You know grownups are talking.
I hate it when people do, it'shorrible.
Yeah, those things I don't like.

Speaker 1 (29:06):
Or don't cry, don't cry, men don't cry yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:09):
Things like that.

Speaker 1 (29:10):
I've heard both things.

Speaker 2 (29:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (29:12):
Boys don't cry, and also in the Latino culture.
Like I generalize Latinoculture, it's very different
from country to country, butlike this thing of a woman
shouldn't complain that but likethis thing of a woman shouldn't
complain.
That's also something right Now.
Why are we so obsessed withshutting down somebody's

(29:33):
emotions?
Yeah, why are we so obsessed?
It's a good question, right,see it.
Um, again, I'm not generalizing,but there are some voices,
especially in the conservativekind of like side, where you
feel like, oh, we want freedom.
At the same time, we wantfreedom for certain discourses.

(29:55):
Certain discourses shouldn'thave a place and to a certain
point I agree with that like weshould have freedom of speech,
but some speeches shouldn't havefreedom.
If you want to keep the freedomof speech, so I can't have
freedom of speech.
If, but some speeches shouldn'thave freedom.
If we want to keep the freedomof speech, so I can't have
freedom of speech.
If I have a neo-Nazi speech,right, yeah, because that speech
goes against.
You know, we cannot havefreedom for everybody, that's

(30:18):
just it.
You know, you have to decide asa society that there are
certain things that are toothreatening to what you're
trying to build.
A neo-Nazi discourse.
Now, if you censor that, I mean, you would say, oh, you are
censoring.
You are, you know, but weshould have freedom of speech,

(30:40):
should we?
I mean, isn't that verydangerous right?
So, going back to my point, whenwe are in a relationship and we
are trying to shut down theother person, usually it's
because that represents acertain threat to us.
Now is it about the otherperson?
I don't know.
But if I'm experiencing toomany emotions to the other side

(31:01):
and I haven't addressed all myemotional baggage myself, I'm
going to be really struggling tocontain the other person.
So what I'm going to do is shutthem down.
Or if I have parents right thathave, perhaps they have abused
their kids and nowadays theyrealize that that was wrong.

(31:24):
It was accepted back in thedays, but it was wrong.
And now what's happening is thekid is saying you know what
happened back then?
It really messed me up, and I'mdoing all this therapy because
I'm still trying to heal that.
And the mom or the dad is likeoh, I don't want to hear that,

(31:49):
just don't talk to me about that, right, like why is that?

Speaker 2 (31:50):
because it's creating so much emotions inside of them
that they cannot handleemotions and also judgment.
Like what parent doesn't feelcriticized?
And I've seen this happen butwhat parent wants to have their
child say you know, when thesoviet times were happening and
I would come home and I wouldget a two on my math test, you'd
beat the living lucas out of me.
You know that parent feels likethey're a bad parent.

(32:10):
Yes, it's very ego driven thatthey feel very ego.
I mean, I think that it hitsthe ego in a different way for
sure, yeah, and and many of theparents during those years.
I wouldn't say they werenarcissists, but they really did
have a lot of narcissistictendencies.
For sure, I think the Becauseall the trauma, you know, yeah,

(32:31):
we have a lot of trauma.
We do as a culture.

Speaker 1 (32:34):
As a culture.
But I think there is like thepiece of motherhood was so
important and the idea of beinga good mom it's so important for
some mothers that thatcriticism can hurt a lot.
But also, I think this is athing that continues to happen

(33:03):
when the parent is searching forthe answers of how to be a good
parent, in their ideology, intheir faith, in their, you know
they are doing it with the bestof the intentions.
They're trying to get theinformation and create, you know
, raise a good child and create,you know, raise a good child.

(33:24):
But usually what happens isthat they are so preoccupied
with those things that theydisconnect from the needs of the
child.
So what I did as a parent wasbecause everybody was saying
that that's the right thing todo, okay, and the kid is saying,
well, but I didn't.
I needed something else fromyou, right?

(33:45):
So this is something thatcontinues to happen.
You know and you see theconsequences.
I worked with, like kids whoseparents are so religious that
the kid is saying I'm suicidal,I don't want to live anymore,
I'm going to kill myself.
And the answer is go read theBible for two hours.

(34:06):
Yeah Right, nothing against theBible.

Speaker 2 (34:09):
But I've heard that too.

Speaker 1 (34:10):
Your kid is telling you something.
I'm hearing.
You know a little girl who issaying that same thing I'm
depressed, I want to kill myself, I don't want to wake up in the
morning.
Okay, this mom asked well, whyis that?
Because I feel like I don'tbelong.
And the answer is you don'tneed to belong, nobody needs to

(34:31):
belong.
But the child is saying I needto belong, I'm desiring this,
you know, kind of like theseconnections and completely
neglected.
Why?
Because, in the mom's mind, herbeing a good student, being
respectful, all of that matteredmuch more.

(34:52):
Yeah, their image and in thatsense I do agree.
There is some kind of likenarcissistic thing there,
because they are more worriedabout if the neighbor sees what
she's going to.

Speaker 2 (35:02):
Yeah, it's all about the reputation.
What would they say if you goto therapy?
I mean, I was finishing mypracticum hours for a professor
of mine and I literally had awoman who was petrified to come
just so that people wouldn't seeher with her child and
recognize her and that theywouldn't talk about their family

(35:23):
, like it was just soheartbreaking.
They're not, it's like, free.
It's not free.
Like you want to give yourchild optimal health but you
can't do that because constantlyin your mind is your image and
your reputation.
What if somebody sees me?
What are they going to think?

Speaker 1 (35:39):
Right, yeah, and that creates a disconnection not
only from your child, but alsofrom yourself.

Speaker 2 (35:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (35:47):
And this is kind of like in parallel to our
conversation about men.
If the man is so worried aboutsatisfying that image, how can
he actually be connected to hisown sense of manhood or, you
know, just, person, right, self?
And I do think that there is,the more rigid these ideas are,

(36:15):
the more hurting, right, like,the more pain people go through,
and there are many people wholive with with certain.
I mean, you cannot universalizethis, this for everyone, right?
Because I think what'shappening now with psychology,
it's every truth has to be foreveryone.
You know, and you see that withI'm going to get a lot of

(36:36):
pushback in this, but, uh,attachment theory.
We have these trending theories, right, right, attachment, and
they claim universal truth.
And the problem is thatdifferent cultures, different
backgrounds, different lifestories and you miss the
uniqueness of each case inparticular.

(36:58):
So none of what I'm sayingapplies to absolutely everyone,
right?
Because I think that we are atrisk of, as professionals, shut
down people's thoughts and givethem the answers that we read in
a book about them, the samething that parents do with their
kids, right?
And the same thing that happenswith ideology.

(37:21):
You know, a leftist ideologyreads certain things from
certain people and, oh, this isthe right thing for my kid and a
conservative, or you know,that's the same thing.
What's missing here is thesingularity of the subject
itself person, right.
So we get alienated to thisknowledge out there.

Speaker 2 (37:46):
So what you're saying is forget what the knowledge is
out there.
Focus on the individual, likewhat are their needs.

Speaker 1 (37:52):
Yes, and the problem that comes with that not a
problem, but a challenge thatcomes with that is that again, I
need certain level of healingand tolerance and acceptance of
myself to be able to connect inthat level with my kid.
If every time I misbehave whenI was a kid I misbehaved and I

(38:17):
was punished very harshly Seeingmy kid misbehave can be very
triggering.
Seeing my kid misbehave can bevery triggering.
So, although I swear for mylife, I'm not going to be like
my dad.
Now I'm acting exactly like himbecause I'm going right.
So I need to do some healing.

Speaker 2 (38:34):
Oh boy, do I relate to that?

Speaker 1 (38:36):
Yeah, are those things conscious Right?
Not really right?
Conscious, no, I think.

Speaker 2 (38:44):
On the contrary, it's unconscious, it's learned
behavior like mirror neurons.
You know Monkey, see monkey do.
You might even not know it, butyou adapt to that.

Speaker 1 (38:51):
Yeah, and you repeat it.
Now, what's the reason behindit?
Different theories, differentexplanations.
The one that I really dislikeand I think is damaging is the
genetic factor.
Right, it's not about genetics,it's about what you are saying.
This is the environment thatyou grew up in.

Speaker 2 (39:11):
Yeah, oh yeah.
Environment is very crucial forsure.
What do you think about thisopinion?
I've heard from many platformsthat dads are so important in
the child's life.

Speaker 1 (39:27):
Yeah, I guess a big misconception about
psychoanalysis is thatpsychoanalysis blames the mother
right.
And I'm saying it's amisconception because
psychoanalysis was evolved, iscontinuous to evolve, so much
right.

(39:47):
And if you go to the Frenchpsychoanalysis, if you go to
Lacan right, we, like he has awhole concept, the name of the
father right.
It's symbolic.
I don't want to get too muchinto the theory, but well,
basically, he's not talkingabout biological mom and dad.

(40:11):
he's talking about functions,right, but it's so crucial, the
function of the father in that,in that triad Now, the father
could be dead for what itmatters, right, but is he
included in the discourse of themom?
Right, something has to get inthe way of the child and the mom

(40:36):
.
The mom needs to desiresomething else beyond the child.
There has to be absence andpresence.
And this is what we see thatsome other psychodynamic
theorists take and they, kind oflike, created something new out
of it, which is if the distanceis too much, it's a problem, if
the distance is not too much,it's a problem.
You know, they're anxiouslyattached, disorganized,

(40:58):
attachment avoidant.
You know all of these thingsright.
So I think the role of thefather is essential and that's
why, also, I don't agree muchwith our traditional idea of
gender roles, because a fatherwho is working full time, who
gets home tired and who getshome frustrated because you know

(41:20):
Of a long day.
Yeah, how present, even if hereally wants to.
How present is he going to befor his?

Speaker 2 (41:29):
child.
Yeah, of course that's areasonable expectation.

Speaker 1 (41:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (41:32):
So let's be logical about it, even though he should,
but there is obviously a levelof tolerance there.

Speaker 1 (41:38):
We have limited resources.
We have limited yeah.
Yeah, we are tired, we areexhausted, we are preoccupied
with stuff, and this isimportant because this has been
happening for generations and wesee the consequences.
I have a support group for men.
Right, these are all differentmen from different backgrounds,

(42:00):
different ages, different lifestories, but you can still see
these are adult, grown-up peoplehow deep the wounds are.

Speaker 2 (42:12):
From their absent fathers.

Speaker 1 (42:14):
From either their yeah, that's a big, big piece.

Speaker 2 (42:18):
Yeah, the absent father, physically, emotionally,
whatever that is, you can havea father that's home physically,
but they can also be veryabsent.

Speaker 1 (42:27):
Yeah, I can have a father who is drinking vodka and
passed out all day long.

Speaker 2 (42:32):
Yeah exactly.

Speaker 1 (42:33):
Do I have a father?
Well, psychoanalysis would say,if you have, then it's a very,
in that sense, a weak one, rightLike it doesn't satisfy, it
doesn't fulfill the symbolicfunction of what a father should
be.

Speaker 2 (42:45):
What is your perspective of a symbolic
functioning father?

Speaker 1 (42:49):
in a home.
If you're talking about atheory, we are talking about law
rules right, law and rules.
Yeah, we are not talking aboutauthoritarian, because I had a
lot of pushback on this, like,oh you're, you know, I'm saying
like some dictatorialauthoritarian parent that can
come into play sometimes I meanthat's necessary at times with a
good balance, I think.

(43:09):
Well then, that wouldn't beauthoritarian right, the
authoritarian thing.
It's really bad.
It's really bad because you areimposing stuff Damaging
children, for sure.
Yeah, yeah, and the problem withit is that there is no, it's
not really a rule or a law, it'sa demand.

Speaker 2 (43:28):
Yeah, exactly, you have no other choice.
There's no freedom in that.

Speaker 1 (43:31):
Because I'm telling you, because I'm the adult, I'm
more powerful.
Because I said so, yeah, yeah,we grew up with that right Like
why?
Yeah, Because I said so.

Speaker 2 (43:39):
But why yeah right?

Speaker 1 (43:45):
But if there is a conversation of like this is why
, right, that changes everythingand we help kids take
accountability and they're likeyou know.
They may understand or they maynot.
In the same way, the parent hasto tolerate the frustration of
the kid is going to fightagainst that because they don't
want to do it.
Right, but your job as a parentis to tolerate that.

Speaker 2 (44:06):
I think that when a child proceeds to fight you on
situations like that, thenthere's a tarnish in the
leadership skills that you haveas a parent.

Speaker 1 (44:19):
What do you mean I?

Speaker 2 (44:20):
think that if you are a good leader because when
you're a parent you are a leaderin a sense, like you're-
leading.
So if you are in that role ofleadership, if you're doing your
job as a parent properly, yourchild should easily follow your
leadership versus argue it,because essentially my idea is

(44:41):
connecting before correcting.
If you've never had arelationship with your child,
you can't lead him.

Speaker 1 (44:46):
Right, who are you?

Speaker 2 (44:47):
Who are you?
Why should I listen to you?
Oh, the eyes are going to rollwhether I'm a boy or a girl.
So when parents have thisdisconnection with their kids
when they're 13, 14, I always goback to how was your
relationship?
Because if you're in this fightwith your kid, this, this
battle of leadership, then youfail.

Speaker 1 (45:09):
Yeah and it depends how bad it is right, yeah, and
sometimes it can get prettynasty.
Yeah, it can be really nasty,and you're right.
Um, sometimes I see that, um,parents have completely
neglected their roles as parents, um, and then the kid is 13, 14
, found a group of belongingthat is not the best, right, and

(45:29):
now they are misbehaving, right, which for me, there is no, no
such thing as misbehaving.
They are behaving, they aresaying something through their
behavior.
Uh, we as a society, punish it,right, um, and now the parent
is like my child is a problem,fix him right.

Speaker 2 (45:49):
Okay, you know, lucky me, I'm gonna, I'm gonna fix
this shit, don't you want to fixthe parent first?

Speaker 1 (45:54):
uh, I don't think fix , yeah, yeah, you know when,
when, when we talk about fixing,I always think about how, how
in the US they talk about, likeyou know, your pet's castration.
They call it like fix your dog.
What does that mean?
What does that mean really?

(46:15):
Right, like, cut it so theydon't misbehave, right, cut it
so they are more regulated, theyare not so active.
And this is what actually,funny enough, it means in
psychology today.
In psychology today you knowthe website, psychology today

(46:35):
right, it's, fixing means makehim, or make him or her to
change his behavior so it stopsbeing a problem for me yeah, if
it's the society, yeah, justlike ADHD meds Doesn't bother me
.
Yeah, Now, the thing that I wasgoing to say about this kind of
like dynamics is that the otherextreme it's really bad too,

(47:01):
when we are trying to be friendswith our kids too.
When we are trying to befriends with our kids and that
rebellion, whatever you want tocall it right, Rolling the eyes,
arguing, it's equally healthyand it's equally important.

Speaker 2 (47:19):
I agree.

Speaker 1 (47:19):
And if you don't tolerate that and you react in a
very you know disproportionateway, or you back up and say well
, you know, do whatever you want, I don't want to bother you.
I'm sorry that you're feelinglike that.
You are absent.
In one way, you turn thisauthoritarian monster which is

(47:40):
again back to my point of thesymbolic role of a parent right.
You are not the law, you arejust somebody who is just
arbitrary.
And just because you arestronger, you are imposing
yourself and on the other sideyou disappear.
And I had this client,18-year-old, who told me her mom

(48:01):
would hang out with her a lot.
They would even go tonightclubs.
this is Argentina, so this wasback in Argentina this was back
in Argentina and she said Ididn't get a friend out of her
and I lost my mom.
Right, yes, it seemed supercool for her friends from

(48:24):
outside, but she lost somebodywho she could fight against, as
any teenager needs.

Speaker 2 (48:32):
Right Like a need yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:36):
I need to know what the law is, so then I can break
it Right.
If I don't know what the rulesare, how could I rebel?

Speaker 2 (48:46):
right.
If I don't know what the rulesare, how could I rebel?
So what you're saying as apsychotherapist is that that law
and that rule needs to be setby the father of the home.

Speaker 1 (48:52):
I say that that's kind of like the symbolic
function.
Now, that can be set by the momtoo, or by an uncle, by whoever
it is, but that's one of thethings, right.
The other thing is that ifthere is not somebody, something
even right we are not talkingabout a person per se that takes
away, creates a little bit ofdistance between mom and the

(49:16):
child.
This relationship becomes veryproblematic Because all the
desire of mom is perhaps tocreate the perfect child.

Speaker 2 (49:26):
Yeah Right, yeah, yeah yeah.

Speaker 1 (49:28):
Because there is no desire elsewhere.

Speaker 2 (49:30):
Which needs to be the father, the healthy
relationship.

Speaker 1 (49:32):
I mean, yeah, it's psychoanalysis, so it's very
kind of stereotypical, but wecould think about anything a
profession, their own health.

Speaker 2 (49:40):
Yeah, career something, yeah friends,
whatever it is.

Speaker 1 (49:43):
There has to be an absence presence dynamic there,
because if not, what's happeningand you see that a lot too is
this child doesn't have theopportunity to be a subject.
They become an object of themother, the missing puzzle piece

(50:03):
for the mother to be theperfect.

Speaker 2 (50:05):
Oh yeah, and this destroys mothers because it
really does mess with theirmental health.

Speaker 1 (50:12):
It really suppresses any subjectivity for the child.

Speaker 2 (50:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (50:16):
Right.
They don't see themselves as aseparate human being.

Speaker 2 (50:21):
No, no, they become the pleaser of mom.

Speaker 1 (50:25):
Yeah, but even it's deeper than that, because you
sometimes, in extreme cases, youhear them talk and it seems
like they have a walkie-talkieand mom is talking through them.
They don't have a voice, right,they don't have a voice, they
don't have an opinion, theydon't have an opinion, they

(50:50):
don't have.
It's mom that talks throughthem.
And this is a big, big problem,right, because that's kind of
like almost structural then typeof construction, right, like
it's a psychic structure thatit's already built different.
So it's really hard to to dealwith that.

Speaker 2 (51:10):
Going back to our men topic, I and this is kind of
off topic, but it's a podcast,we can do that I was watching a
documentary on Netflix and itwas about the notorious
pedophiles of California andthey interviewed one of them.
I forgot his name.

(51:30):
I'll try to remember and I'lllink it because I know people
are going to ask for thedocumentary.
But they were asking thismonster how he chose his victims
, and particularly children.
He loved to molest children,and so they were asking him
these questions and he said Iwould drive up to schools for
several weeks, I would sit in mycar and I would just watch kids

(51:52):
, and the way I chose my victimswere I observed the fathers of
these children, and if thefather was not a threat I would
not go after the kid, but if thefather was a threat, I would
not even think once to get nearthat kid.
So this monster chose the kidswho had the weaker dads or the

(52:18):
absent dads, and so that's why Ialways ask the question of how
important a father's role is.
And so if a man needs to havethat look, that tough, look,
that intimidating look, then doit, because this is what
protects children.
Yeah, I mean, it's a verysingular case, right, yeah, well

(52:39):
, yeah, but it's still like inmany cases, I mean like look at
to anybody you talk to, like theimage of a man Like that I
don't mean by look high tonothing like that but like the
way that a man carries himselfis so essential, because that
really that really opens doorsfor either people to take

(52:59):
advantage or not.
It's just such a big role thata man has.

Speaker 1 (53:04):
Then we are in a very messed up society.
We are, we are, though.
That's the whole idea.

Speaker 2 (53:10):
We are, because it throws all the psychology out
the door.

Speaker 1 (53:13):
But to generalize this, I find it a little bit
dangerous and I will tell youwhy.
What dangerous To take anexample like this, and it makes
complete sense, right?
Like, of course, like the guy,he's a pedophile, but he's not
an idiot.

Speaker 2 (53:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:31):
You know he's not going to risk it with a guy who
is going to kick his ass right.
That's very simple.

Speaker 2 (53:37):
Pretty much short and simple.

Speaker 1 (53:39):
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, why would he?
Why would he?
But there are many more deeperquestions to ask there.
But without getting into that,when we start to talk about
looks and how that can affectthe behavior of some other
person, because there was many,many cases of women being raped

(54:08):
after they would go to anightclub and they would take a
cab or something you know publictransportation it was basically
in their way home five, six, itwas in.
Argentina, but it happens heretoo.
This study in particular wasfrom.
It wasn't a study, it was whatwas happening, actually, but the

(54:30):
study was about.
There was a lot of discoursesabout, well, if they dress like
that, if they're kind of drunk,if they're this, if they're that
, then of course something isgoing to happen to them, right.
So it was almost like anobvious thing.
If they are wearing a shortdress, if they are using high

(54:51):
heels, if they are kind of drunk, of course men are going to
want to rape them.
This was what was beingcirculated.
Of course the woman wasbecoming the problem again,
right, like it was, because theway they dressed that the man
allowed himself to rape her.

Speaker 2 (55:08):
You don't think that's the case.

Speaker 1 (55:10):
Well, this is the study that actually showed that
women who were dressedprofessionally, with their hair
done and more conservativelywere more prone to be attacked.
Really Right.
Conservatively, were more proneto be attacked by yeah, really
right, because it wasn't aboutthe sexual, the sexuality in the
sense of, like we understand,like sexualized body.

Speaker 2 (55:32):
It was about power domination, right, it was about
that so the more conservative,the more you show that you're in
power and domination.

Speaker 1 (55:42):
So so the more kind of like exciting for the guy or
for the rapist to dominate thisperson, right.
The worst thing that couldhappen for a rapist is for a
woman to want it.
This is the study, right.
I'm not claiming any expertisein this, no, no, no, this was
what the conversation was how wecan fall into these assumptions

(56:06):
that a woman dressingprovocative or sensual right is
going to attract.

Speaker 2 (56:11):
Is asking for it.

Speaker 1 (56:12):
Is asking for, it right, and the study was like
well, no, not really.

Speaker 2 (56:16):
So the one that's not the rapist is finding it more
exciting because it's not a want.

Speaker 1 (56:22):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (56:23):
That is so interesting.

Speaker 1 (56:25):
There's more of imposing their will over the
other right uh, and this washappening in argentina, yeah
yeah, so.
So that's why I was saying andnone of again, none of this is
universal law yeah, of coursethere are cases and cases, but
I'm saying like there are somesick people out there that are
going to hurt others.
We can get into the mentalhealth conversation and see why

(56:49):
did they end up this way.
You can get into the kind oflike my personal life.
I'm worried about my sister, mywife, my family, my kids.
So I have certain emotions andcertain reaction to this.
Or we can go the low and whatwe should be doing.
It's a very complexconversation, but what is it's

(57:21):
kind of hard to do is kind of togeneralize this guy that you
were mentioning and say likethis is the thing, because this
is going to sound kind of dumb,and say like this is the thing,
because this is going to soundkind of dumb, but what if some
other guy feels more challengingand more exciting to do it?

Speaker 2 (57:31):
To have, like a thing , a dad.

Speaker 1 (57:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (57:33):
Well, that could be too.

Speaker 1 (57:34):
Right.

Speaker 2 (57:35):
That could be too.

Speaker 1 (57:36):
That could be too.
It's very hard to predict.
And again, this is kind of likeback to my point of we are a
very obsessive society and wetry to get answers for
everything.

Speaker 2 (57:46):
And we just don't understand that.

Speaker 1 (57:49):
There's a lot of situations that are very case by
case.

Speaker 2 (57:53):
Well, we're not going to because everyone's so
different.

Speaker 1 (57:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (57:56):
And it's you, just, you know.
I mean, like, look at it thisway what is what does make a
healthy man?
Ok, right, that's a goodquestion.

Speaker 1 (58:02):
What does make what is a healthy man?
Okay, right, that's a goodquestion.

Speaker 2 (58:05):
What does make?
What does a healthy man looklike?

Speaker 1 (58:06):
What does make a healthy person, human, woman,
sure, right?
It's a very tough question toanswer.

Speaker 2 (58:19):
Why do you think it's tough to answer?

Speaker 1 (58:20):
Because it has so many components right.
There is no one way in whichyou could qualify a healthy man
like each person.
Most of the population ispretty healthy right here,
everywhere.
Most people are not.

(58:40):
There is high percentages ofmental health issues I agree
with that, but most of thepeople are doing pretty okay,
right.
Otherwise, it would be like ina you know this would be
catastrophic.
And yet they are all sodifferent from each other.
They all have lives that are sodifferent, right, and, I think,

(59:04):
my respect to each of thesemen's path towards healing and
towards conducting a healthylife.
For me it's very important,right, because even I was
thinking about these discoursesout there about the biology of
it, right, like the man and thewoman's different right, and how

(59:28):
that is tied to personalitytraits and I hear this a lot
from Jordan Peterson, right?

Speaker 2 (59:35):
I know you're not a fan.

Speaker 1 (59:36):
I'm not a fan.
I am a really big fan of SlavojŽižek.

Speaker 2 (59:41):
I know.

Speaker 1 (59:41):
Right, I am not a fan of Jordan Peterson just because
his claims pretend to besupported by data that doesn't
exist.
So his whole claim ofagreeableness or agreeability.

Speaker 2 (59:57):
Be a less agreeable person.

Speaker 1 (59:58):
Yeah, women are less agreeable, are more agreeable
than men, right, agreeable.
Are more agreeable than men,right?
What he doesn't say when hetalks about this is that, yes,
like the score in agreeableagreeability for, for, for women
is higher than men, but onaverage there are more men who

(01:00:21):
are more agreeable than womenand in average women are less
agreeable than men.
There is a peak.
If you see the graph in theresearch, there's a peak higher
for women in their level ofagreeability, but the graph for
men it's wider right.

(01:00:42):
So there's many more men who aremore agreeable than women.
So this kind of like discoursesthat he just preaches and this
kind of like normative of uh,then from there you move to what
things are manly to do, whatthings are, more you know,
womanly, or those are the thingsthat that hurt hurt.

(01:01:04):
Who hurt men hurt woman.
Why do?
Who Hurt men hurt women.

Speaker 2 (01:01:06):
Why do you think that hurts men and women?

Speaker 1 (01:01:08):
Because you are creating very rigid stereotypes
of what millions, of millions ofdifferent people, different men
from different cultures shouldall behave like, no matter what
their life story is, no matterwhat their social economical
situation is, no matter if theyare gay or straight, no matter

(01:01:30):
anything.

Speaker 2 (01:01:32):
It's very controlled.
Yeah, I mean, but don't youthink that people need guidance?

Speaker 1 (01:01:39):
How is that guiding?

Speaker 2 (01:01:40):
Well, let's talk about this.
So let's bring kids up, okay,maybe like teenagers, 20s
whatever so when people don'thave a set of laws, regulations,
they tend to have no sense ofdirection.
And what happens if you givepeople too much freedom?
Okay, let's just say there areno rules and regulations for any

(01:02:03):
age.
How is that person going tofind their way?

Speaker 1 (01:02:05):
That would be horrible.

Speaker 2 (01:02:07):
Right.
So there has to be.
I understand when sometimes itcould be a little bit extreme,
like some certain psychologists,what they talk about.
Like Jordan Peterson, he canget a little extreme right.

Speaker 1 (01:02:19):
Well, my point is that he claims some scientific
universal truth as a thinker, asa human being, and not that I
matter, right, but okay.

Speaker 2 (01:02:30):
You matter.

Speaker 1 (01:02:30):
Well, but you know, compared to somebody as famous
as him, he's not going to sit onthe bed with me.

Speaker 2 (01:02:35):
How do you know what this real is going to be?

Speaker 1 (01:02:36):
Maybe it'll get like 5.5 million, Maybe right, that
would be great, then you will bethe next.
But we have to think about whatare the implications of the
discourse that he's creating,and for me, nothing good really
comes from that.
That's my problem.
Now, if the data shows whatyear, what data, like this

(01:02:57):
research that I'm saying it wasthe young, who was that?
There were three guys, young,um, who was that?
There were three guys?
I can remember the young, uh,and, and and he, they, they
review like a bunch ofresearches about these claims
that that that about personalitytraits and men and women, right
, the overlap, the overlap is sobig.

(01:03:20):
It's so big that there is nopoint really in getting into
this.
Um, men are born to be fightersand leaders and whatever, and
women are born to, uh, agree andnurture, and it's just not true
why not?

(01:03:41):
because the claim is that that'sgenetic.
The claim is that that'sgenetic.
The claim is that that'sbiological.

Speaker 2 (01:03:47):
Yeah, we're born into our roles, right?
That's not true.

Speaker 1 (01:03:51):
I don't think it's true.
I think you can see how it haschanged.
You can see how, when it'sneeded, that discourse shifts a
little bit to accommodate, right, it's needed that discourse
shifts a little bit toaccommodate, right.
Yeah, I mean our physical,biological differences, totally

(01:04:12):
agree.
Yeah, of course we are twodifferent, Even looking from a
psychoanalytic perspective.
Femininity and masculinity arecompletely different things, not
compatible, you know anythinglike that.
Very, very different things.
But to call the roles thatsociety has deemed normal for

(01:04:34):
men and women as a biologicalfact is just not true.
This is my problem with thesediscourses that try to
universalize.
This is my problem with thesediscourses that try to
universalize and what thatcreates is damage for those who
don't fit that kind of thing.

Speaker 2 (01:04:52):
What kind of damage?
Well, yeah, suicidality.

Speaker 1 (01:04:54):
Emasculation.
Well, suicidality is a bigthing.
I think it was like 70% ofsuicides were men.
Right, it's very concerning Now, emasculation if we are
thinking about um, manhood, um,and as something that should

(01:05:16):
tolerate whatever and should.
You know, this man shouldperform and should be a man, no
matter what these.
This is where the discourse islike boys, don't cry, come from
right.
You shouldn't be complaining,you shouldn't be too vulnerable,
you shouldn't be I don't know,talking about emotions with your

(01:05:39):
.
I have seen men having a hardtime being affectionate with
their daughter.
They feel troubled with thatidea.
Right, why?
The best things that I see iswhen fathers dress like

(01:06:01):
princesses and they dance withtheir kids or whatever right,
I've seen those, yeah.
It's amazing, it's amazing.
The problem is that somebodywould say that's not a man.

Speaker 2 (01:06:13):
But that's so different.
I feel like those things are sodifferent.
You know, like a father at homedressing like a princess to
play tea party with his daughter.
I think it's so beautiful, it'svulnerable and I think it's
accepted.
It's beautiful, but anythingbeyond that I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:06:32):
What would be beyond that?

Speaker 2 (01:06:33):
To dress like that outside.
Well, I have seen that and tobe claiming that as you're a
woman At a school presentation,right, yeah, I've seen those.
Right, so this daughter I Imean like adapting that as your
new lifestyle is a little wellyeah, I'm guessing that these
parents are not pretending to bedisney princesses right yeah,
but but for me.

Speaker 1 (01:06:56):
I can see how strong the connection between that
father and this daughter can be,because this dad didn't worry
about what are others going tothink, what I should do as a
father.
And I'm not saying that thisfather even like thought about

(01:07:20):
this.
Perhaps he just did, like youknow, instinctively, but he
talked the language of hisdaughter, right?
Her daughter imagined that hisdad is a princess.
That was like okay, let's be aprince.
That's a true man to me, yeah,and it's amazing it is amazing,
it is beautiful.

Speaker 2 (01:07:39):
and when I say, uh, dads are important, I mean like
and, and you know, thepatriarchal man is important,
not because I want them to be orhave this idea of you know,
beat your wife, beat your kids,no.
But you know not the dads fromlike the 1930s, 40s that don't
kiss you and say I love you,beat you, but the dads that are

(01:08:03):
speaking the child's languageand they love their child and
they play with their child butthose are not patriarchal dads.

Speaker 1 (01:08:09):
Which ones those dads that they're mentioning?

Speaker 2 (01:08:12):
there, there could be .
You don't think so.
There could be like a verystrong man, but also at home is
very, very like sensitive and iscomfortable to be dressed in
tutus with his daughter.

Speaker 1 (01:08:25):
I mean my idea of, like the typical patriarchal,
you know, macho guy.

Speaker 2 (01:08:32):
That's our dads.

Speaker 1 (01:08:34):
Yeah, well, my dad is an artist, so I grew up in a
family that, yes, he was likethat pretty much.
You know USSR education, youknow, and that systemic
authoritarian dictatorship hasimplication in micro, you know.
ussr education, you know, andthat's um systemic, uh,
authoritarian dictatorship hasimplication in micro, you know,
in a micro level too but, Iwould see, you know, my uncles,

(01:08:54):
my, you know, um again thesethings of like, uh, I'm the man
of the house, right?
Yeah, and I hear this a lot,like in my times we would never
talk back to our parents.

Speaker 2 (01:09:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:09:13):
Right.
Why was that so great?
What are we proud of?
Maybe you should have withoutbeing punished for it, right?

Speaker 2 (01:09:23):
Yeah, I don't think that that's respect, I think
that's fear.
I think anything out ofanything that you fear, like
most people, would think thatthat's respecting your parent.
But essentially you're going togrow up and be 30.
Are you still going to respectyour parents to that level of?

Speaker 1 (01:09:37):
you know, you know I'm talking about like kids,
right, and I'm sure, like thisis completely anecdotal I
haven't done the research, to behonest.
But, um, you see, how kids whoyou know perhaps women more,
it's more clear for to see it inwomen who grew up in families

(01:10:00):
where the dad was, you know,very kind of, uh, harsh and
authoritarian and even abusive,they kind of like, build a
similar relationship with theirpartner.
Yeah, right, so is that reallygood thing?
You know?

(01:10:20):
Do, do these parents want theirkids to find somebody like that
, right?
Um, and I know our culture isvery special in many ways, but,
um, you create a, an idea, likea matrix of what a man is right.

(01:10:41):
You create an idea of what lovelooks like and it's really hard
to change that right.
If love means, um, love meansdistance, rejection.
Love means, uh, punishment.
Love means not speaking my mind.
Uh, you know, love means that Ihave to neglect myself to

(01:11:04):
constantly satisfy that person,then most probably anything
outside of that.
I'm not going to know what todo with it.
You know, this is what isfamiliar, this is what I'm used
to, this is, and there's anentire system that applauds me
for that right.
So why wouldn't I choose that?
Am I happy really in thatrelationship?

(01:11:25):
Most probably not, but why not?
Right?
And can I voice my pain?
Now, and that's the biggestchallenge for men and women too,
like, for the first time, youknow people in their 50s, 60s
getting into therapy saying Ican't believe.

(01:11:46):
I'm just starting to talk aboutthis.
You know, I've never allowedmyself to even have doubts about
this.
I think that's great progress.
Now, the piece about thevictimization that you were
saying, I think you're really,really into something very
important, and I wouldn'texclusively talk about men,

(01:12:07):
about that.
I would say it's we arecreating a narcissistic society,
we are encouraging that, andyou know it's what do?
We hear a lot and there's nojudgment for me, like, like on
what each person decides to doin their relationship or not.

(01:12:28):
But what I see is a lot ofdiscourses out there of this is
what a healthy relationship is.
That's why I feel so hesitantto say what is a healthy
relationship, what is a healthyman right?
Because I feel like I don'thave that power, I don't have
that knowledge to determine that.
But we see discourses about aloving relationship or a healthy

(01:12:49):
relationship is a relationshipthat satisfy your needs, okay,
and if it doesn't, then it'stoxic.
Then you should leave thatperson, then you should find
somebody else, or perhaps youshould sick, then you should
leave that person, then youshould find somebody else, or
perhaps you should you knowwhatever engage in some open
relationship so you can haveyour needs needs, you know your

(01:13:11):
needs met somewhere else.
Great If it works for you.
Great, I would say.
Most of the time, what theydon't talk about is that, unless
it's an extreme situation, well, first of all, your needs are
going to remain unsatisfied, nomatter if you are, wherever you
are right.

Speaker 2 (01:13:31):
No matter who you're with yeah, no matter who you're
with when you go.

Speaker 1 (01:13:35):
Because nobody is that missing puzzle piece that
you feel like you're going toExactly that's portrayed out
there.

Speaker 2 (01:13:41):
Right Find the one.

Speaker 1 (01:13:42):
Yeah, and what is called like the your soulmate
right, um, and then the problemwith that is, you're also
creating somebody who thinksthat whatever they feel and
whatever they experience is theonly thing that matters.
Right say that again so you'recreating a society where each

(01:14:05):
individual thinks that whateverthey feel, they perceive, is the
only thing that matters very Ivery very, very I.
That's the narcissistic societythat you're I don't think so
yeah, no, I agree with you andyou know, even talk about
narcissism, like why arenarcissists depicted as somebody

(01:14:27):
who wants to be successful,manipulative, whatever?
Because those are the valuesthat the society appreciates,
where what is valued is caringabout the other, about being

(01:14:47):
generous, about being honest,about if we are truly creating a
society where we are notidealizing these guys in the
internet that are just showingtheir expensive cars and
mistreating others.
I'm wondering if the idea ofsuccess changes.
Would a narcissist still pursuethat?

(01:15:10):
Right, because what anarcissist does is pursue an
image, an image that they thinkthat it's loved and admired by
society, also very demonized.
Know the narcissist?
Because nobody talks about whena narcissist, a narcissistic
person, then has these episodesof depression are really bad, of

(01:15:30):
course.
Right, because there's a lot oftrauma behind that.
Yeah, because they don't lovethemselves.
No, they love the image andthey try to be the image, right,
yeah, so what I see a lot inthe men that I to is talking
about relationships is that weare living, they are

(01:15:55):
experiencing that thing.
My partner is asking me forstuff and I'm working really,
really hard to give everythingshe wants or he wants, and I
always fall short and I alwaysfeel like a failure.
Right, and one would say well,what are you doing in that

(01:16:20):
relationship?
Right, but this dynamic worksfor both of them, right?
Because as long as the partnercan criticize them, this is
working.
Is it a happy, healthyrelationship?
No, but it's working.
And as long as they can havesomething to work on to improve

(01:16:42):
their relationship, that'sworking too.
Something to work on to improvetheir relationship, that's
working too.
The moment you assume that thehappiness of that person is not
your job, that you can support,you can be there, but it's not
your job to make anybody happy,then things change.
But most of the time, if therelationship is not treated,

(01:17:03):
this ends up in rapture.
Right, and this is somethingthat I learned from my own
analysis.
My psychoanalyst, you know, saidsomething among the lines of
the most difficult thing to dofor you and I think it's for
everyone, but he was talking tome, um is to accept that, no

(01:17:27):
matter what you do, you cannotkeep your parents fully happy.
You're always going to be alittle bit disappointing, right,
and and that was something togrieve for me, right, like that
was something to let go, butalso, incredibly freeing it.
It wasn't because I waspowerless, but it was an
impossible task that I had infront of me, right?

(01:17:49):
So, okay, I had to study acareer to make them happy.
I'm studying the career.
Okay, it's getting too late toget married?
Okay, now I have to focus onmarriage, right, oh, but we
don't like this woman.
You'd be like this woman.
Okay, now I have to focus onthis one.
Oh, but your career?
Like this woman.
You be like this woman.
Okay, now I have to focus onthis one.
Oh, but your career?
Okay, now this, right, butsomebody else studied a
different career and they'remaking much more money, right,

(01:18:11):
and now you're never home, andso the demands never end.
And what our responsibility is?
Well, sorry, I need to live mylife.

Speaker 2 (01:18:24):
But how long did it take you to?
Or any person right Sometimes?

Speaker 1 (01:18:29):
they never get to that point.
Sometimes you never get to thatpoint, yeah, and you try to
satisfy, then your parents arenot there anymore.
And now you keep doing the samewith your partner.

Speaker 2 (01:18:38):
Yeah, and it's transferred on to your children
and so on.
Yeah, it's so damaging itreally is your children, and so
on.

Speaker 1 (01:18:44):
Yeah, so damaging it's it, it really is.
And and the fact that that wetalk so much about the men's
performance, because we rarelytalk about the woman's
performance.
You know, beyond, if you'retalking about the traditional
kind of like patriarchaldiscourses cook clean, you know,
take care of the kids Right, asif that's what a woman is, you

(01:19:11):
know, um, and when we're talkingabout men, we are talking about
performance, uh, performance atwork, sexually, you know,
protecting.
So if performance, if you'reperforming the best you can and
you still cannot make yourpartner happy, that can be
incredibly emasculating.

Speaker 2 (01:19:29):
Yeah, you know, I was reading, I would say maybe
about two years ago there was anarticle that was done on men in
performance, performance, andit was quite interesting.
In the article stated that men,because they don't have a space

(01:19:49):
to communicate like a man,cannot go to his friend and say,
hey, you know, george, I feelsad.
Today I'm not feeling well.
I got into a fight with youknow, donna, because then George
is going to you know, look atyou like what's going on here?
Man Like going to you know,look at you, like what's going
on here?
Man Like click, he's going tohang up on you.
So the safest space for a man tocommunicate is through sex

(01:20:12):
intimacy.
And it was quite interestingbecause I'm like you know that
makes sense to me becausethere's not enough space.
I mean, where do men, where canmen go to speak freely like
that?
I don't feel well, I haveanxiety.
Today I'm sad, I've beenfeeling depressed.
There's not enough places likethat for men to go, whether it's

(01:20:35):
your wife, whether it's yourfriends, because you have this
image that you need to keep,that you need to keep.
So the only place that men canbe vulnerable let's just use
that word, vulnerable to thatstate is the bedroom, because
performance is also a way ofcommunicating, it's a language.
So this is why a lot of menwere classified as sex addicts.

Speaker 1 (01:20:57):
Oh, wow, that's interesting.
Yeah, sex is very.
I think sex and intimacy arevery, very symbolic of what's
going on elsewhere, right Right,it's a way of expressing
yourself.
Yeah, absolutely.
And the interesting thing is, Irarely see a relationship that

(01:21:22):
is falling apart and the sex isgreat, and I also rarely see a
relationship that is amazing andsex is failing.
Now it can happen, right, yeah,but usually there is such level
of well, we are literally mostof the time naked in front of
each other, right, mm-hmm?
symbolically naked too yeah andwhat happens when um you get

(01:21:49):
criticized in bed oh wow, yeahright, what happens when?
Because, again going to mypoint, like you know, like I
would say there's no sexualrelationship.
But uh, the whole point is weare not compatible, right,
women's sexuality and men'ssexuality are very, very
different and certainly womenfrom men are kind of more basic,

(01:22:13):
right.
But, like, generally speaking,generally speaking, it's really
hard to read any book that wouldgive you the tools to satisfy
any woman.

Speaker 2 (01:22:23):
A sense of direction.
Yeah, why do you think thatthere's such pressure on men?
I feel like, when you know,speaking clinically, when men
are performing well, they'recriticized and they're labeled
as sex addicts, and when they'renot, they're labeled, as you
know, absent.
There's always this pressure onmen in the performance area.

(01:22:45):
Is this unhealthy for men like?

Speaker 1 (01:22:48):
yes, of course and and I I mean I'm I'm hesitant to
say that performance like goodperformance, whatever that means
, you know, in each case is verydifferent yeah, for every
relationship it's different yeahand you know I I worked with
some couples were coming.
I was in the psychosomatic unitin in buenos aires, right, so

(01:23:10):
there were some people weredealing with um issues related
to intimacy and sex.
So we're always thinking about,like these standards out there.
You have to last 15 minutes ormore for a woman to get to
orgasm, right, and all of thesethings I'm like.
Well, I saw people where awoman got to the orgasm in two

(01:23:32):
minutes.
For her, those extra 13 minutes, it's just….

Speaker 2 (01:23:38):
Gnarly and torture, I'm sure.

Speaker 1 (01:23:40):
Yeah, right, Like just like let's put Netflix and
watch something.
Right, we have done.
We have done.
We have accomplished ourmission.
You know, we can say we are ahealthy couple because we have
sex three times a week.
Right, and let's move on withour life.

Speaker 2 (01:23:52):
Is that the healthy limit you think clinically?

Speaker 1 (01:23:53):
No, that's bullshit, but like….

Speaker 2 (01:23:55):
It's different for every couple.

Speaker 1 (01:23:56):
I feel like it's very different Stages in life,
levels of stress that we areexperiencing.
It's really context right, LikeI was working with a family
where they were living sevenpeople in a one bedroom
apartment.

Speaker 2 (01:24:11):
Oh, my goodness yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:24:12):
Can you imagine any kind of intimacy in that context
?
Really really hard.

Speaker 2 (01:24:17):
Very hard, yeah, and I can imagine the stress on the
relationship too.

Speaker 1 (01:24:21):
Yeah, but the piece about the performance is very
important because it's notsomething that the couple talks
about.
It's something that is assumedthat the men should know.

Speaker 2 (01:24:32):
Well, dico, I'm sorry to cut you off, but men are
very loud about that.
I mean like sex, are they.
Very, I mean.

Speaker 1 (01:24:43):
Well, you know what they say about being loud, right
?
If you're being too loud aboutsomething, it's because you
don't want to be talking aboutsomething else, right?

Speaker 2 (01:24:51):
so.
I would say it's just portrayedvery out loud.

Speaker 1 (01:24:57):
I think that's kind of like a fantasy that I have
heard out there, like men gatherand talk about sex and porn and
all of these things.
I have never experienced thatwith my friends, perhaps.
I have like you know very.
Maybe you have reallyprofessional friends, maybe I'm
very lucky with my friends, noteven in loud in that sense.

Speaker 2 (01:25:14):
But how often do you hear you know younger, you know
ladies in their 20s, men intheir 20s.
You know you're talking.
I mean the dating scene ishorrible right now for anyone
that's single.
It's.
You know you're talking.
I mean, the dating scene ishorrible right now for anyone
that's single.
It's really, really bad.
And so when you talk to femalesI mean I've had a few, uh,

(01:25:35):
coaching clients that I've metthey're like you know the men,
all they want is sex.
You go out with them.
The second day they're alreadymaking moves and I've caught
it's not just one case, there'slike hundreds I'm talking about.
Okay, so the site I thinkthat's that's what I'm saying
like it's portrayed so loud thatwhen you're trying to look at
other factors of men, the onlything that you can think about

(01:25:57):
is oh, are they going to wantthis?
Is this the only thing that'sin their mind?

Speaker 1 (01:26:02):
yeah well, and that's disheartening because that's
what they're putting out there Imean we are falling again into
a generalization, but because Ihave received the same.

Speaker 2 (01:26:11):
About women.

Speaker 1 (01:26:13):
I have received the same about women saying, like
you know, they are taking it tooslow.
That too, yeah, and what I'mhearing in both cases is they
are both trying to followcertain universal standard that
they have in their mind of howit should be, and it's very

(01:26:35):
unfortunate because then youhave women who force themselves
to have sex in the first date,when even they didn't feel
comfortable.

Speaker 2 (01:26:42):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:26:44):
And you also have men who perhaps are also not
comfortable.

Speaker 2 (01:26:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:26:49):
But they have to be a man, so that's what a man does
in their mind, right?
And sometimes both of them justwant to have sex and that's it,
and that's fine, right, that'sfine.
I mean, if they are, are twoadults, consenting adults?

Speaker 2 (01:27:06):
Yeah, they want to hang out and have sex.
They have fun.

Speaker 1 (01:27:09):
Yeah, good for them, you know.
But I would say that kind ofsex and the sexual relationship.

Speaker 2 (01:27:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:27:15):
It's a little bit different, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:27:18):
You guys are very different.
Yeah, there is like thatemotional connection that that's
what people should strive forFor sure.
I mean emotional connection,that that's what people should
strive for for sure.
I mean I'm a little judgmentalwhen it comes to things like
that because it's it's safer andhealthier versus going out
there and spreading your wingseverywhere.

Speaker 1 (01:27:35):
You know it's not a really healthy your wings, yeah,
your wings you know, it's justhealthier I.
I mean, I would assume that,yeah, it kind of reduces certain
risks.
But overall, the whole thingabout the sexual relationship

(01:27:58):
that I do care about is that ithas also turned into some kind
of indication of how healthy ornot your relationships, based on
some absurd standards out thereRight, the frequency, how long
you last, how many positions,and this and that Right yeah.

(01:28:18):
And some relationships now feelguilty because they just don't
want to have sex.
Right and it's fine.

Speaker 2 (01:28:25):
Or they don't want to do those things, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:28:28):
Right and the performance piece for the men.
I think usually, and perhapswhen we are teenagers, we will
talk about these things, but aswe grow up, I think that men are
more and more reserved.

(01:28:48):
I think that women are morevocal about how they feel in
their sexual experience and menare more reserved because most
of the time and this is a bigdamage that I see in like newer
generations of social mediaaccess to pornography right.
So so damaging what aboutdating sites?

Speaker 2 (01:29:11):
Don't you think they're damaging?

Speaker 1 (01:29:17):
I don't like them because just the gist of it,
like you are kind of like goingthrough a catalog of something.

Speaker 2 (01:29:20):
It's horrible.
What about the other piece?

Speaker 1 (01:29:21):
What other piece?

Speaker 2 (01:29:26):
Well, when did you get married?
What year?

Speaker 1 (01:29:28):
I'm not married.
I'm engaged.

Speaker 2 (01:29:29):
Oh, you're engaged.
Sorry, but when you met yourfiancé was it on a dating site.

Speaker 1 (01:29:35):
No, no, okay, it was through a friend.

Speaker 2 (01:29:36):
Exactly.
It was through friends.
So imagine the level of workyou had to do to pursue her.
You had to think about what tosay.
You had to build the courage tosay it.
You had to take her out.
You had to make conversation.
Nowadays everything is donedigitally, so men don't have
that level of courage to reallygo up to a girl anymore and ask

(01:30:00):
them on a date Would you like tohave coffee with me?
Would you like to have dinnerwith me?
Everything is swipe left orswipe right.
What is that going to do to aman?
Since we're talking about men.

Speaker 1 (01:30:12):
I'm not saying it doesn't happen with women.
It's exactly the same for womenbut for men.
I think that the anxiety aboutthe actual because there is
excitement and they want to meetin person, of course and I
think that this consistentnarrative of like men just want

(01:30:32):
to party, it's kind of crap.
Like I see the men that I workwith and they really want a good
relationship, right, Like mostof the men that I've met.
They want that, they crave forthat emotional connection.

Speaker 2 (01:30:47):
I think so too yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:30:48):
What I see happening, not only in sexual
relationships, but like romanticrelationships, but also like in
friendships, in-person contactperhaps the pandemic had
something to do with it too hasbecome highly anxiety provoking.

Speaker 2 (01:31:06):
For men going pursuing women.

Speaker 1 (01:31:09):
For men pursuing women, for sure, but for people
in general too.
Just like, think aboutteenagers making friends.
The level of isolation thatkids have now in their 50s, 60s.
You know teenagers right, evenyoung adults.

(01:31:30):
They feel inadequate, they feellike this social anxiety.
They are worried about what tosay.
They are worried.
We were lucky enough to notgrow up in that context and I
would say it's a very la thingtoo, because I have, like people
that I work that are, you know,from new york or from these big
cities and the level ofconversation is different.

(01:31:54):
You just interact with them.
You take the publictransportation so you maybe see
the same people every day, soyou talk.
It's much more.
Let's call it like natural.
It flows differently.
Now here in LA it's like oh no,he called me right, why are you
calling me?
Just text me, okay, unless I'mbusy.

(01:32:18):
You know I hate when I'm busyand they call me for sure, but
I'm not terrified of a call.
Yeah, you don't just ignorebecause'm not terrified of a
call.

Speaker 2 (01:32:26):
Yeah, you don't just ignore it because you don't want
to talk.

Speaker 1 (01:32:29):
Yeah, right, and it has become a joke.
Yeah, but you know like thepizza delivery comes and people
are hiding, right, because it'snot even funny.

Speaker 2 (01:32:41):
That's factual, though.
Yeah, you don't want to openthe door to the Uber driver or
the Amazon.
I mean, before it was justgreeting, now that's not even so
, it's it's.

Speaker 1 (01:32:53):
it's that same concept for dating sites like
men don't have that drivingforce anymore to pursue, and I
think that's hurting a lot andand I think the problem with
that and I see both sides again,I'm saying both sides because I
do work with a lot of men, butI also work with a lot of women,
right, and the discourses areinterestingly very, very similar
.
The narrative of their stories,they are very, very similar.

(01:33:15):
I think that one of the mostpainful things is let's say that
okay, if you didn't match, youdidn't match, it's fine.
You go by your day and you keepscrolling until you match right
.
I think, as problematic as thatis, it's kind of like a
necessary tool for LA, becausethat's kind of like the culture

(01:33:37):
that we are living in now.
But when they start to talk andyou don't have the same level
of accountability because youhaven't met the person, and then
one day you decide that youdon't want to respond, Not for a
second, you stop to think I'mgoing to hurt this person's
feelings.
Right, and this happens equallyfor men and women.

(01:33:59):
But I have seen we're talkingabout men.
I have seen a lot of men gethurt Like I thought we were
connecting.
You know we were talking, solike've seen a lot of men get
hurt like I thought we wereconnecting.
You know we were talking, solike it was going so well and
she just like ghosted me oh yeahthat's horrible, you know.
And and if there's aconversation like hey, you know,
I think this is not goinganywhere, you know, we should

(01:34:20):
talk to our people.
Transparency a level oftransparency so you can have
some level of closure.
It hurts your ego, ego whateveryou move on.

Speaker 2 (01:34:28):
That's that empathy though that's the scary thing.

Speaker 1 (01:34:31):
Well, how much empathy you can create if you
are scrolling you know again I'mgoing to sound super judgmental
with this, but there is adifference.
There is a difference when theperson that you are talking to
has a my clients that I startedto work during the pandemic.

(01:34:51):
They see me in person for thefirst time and most of the time
they say, oh, you have like abody below your.

Speaker 2 (01:35:01):
Yeah, it's a joke of course, yeah, but that's what
they saw, of course.

Speaker 1 (01:35:05):
And something changes in the relationship from their
own.
Yeah, it's a joke, of course.
Yeah, but that's what they saw,of course.
And something changes in therelationship from their own?
Yeah, it does.
Even if I see them just onetime, the level of connection
absolutely changes.
Oh, yeah, I agree with you.

Speaker 2 (01:35:15):
I agree with you.

Speaker 1 (01:35:16):
So when I did this men's support group, something
that every man was excited aboutis that it was going to be in
person.
They crave for that place,right?

Speaker 2 (01:35:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:35:32):
They can be vulnerable with other men, they
can witness each other's stories.
Older men can give some adviceto younger men.
You know some can relate tosimilar situations, similar
experiences.
What is very different fromindividual therapy is that you

(01:35:56):
have other people kind of likelistening to you, you know, and
that has some power in it.
You know, as a therapist Icannot say say, well, good job
on that, you know you should.
That's not my job, I'm notgoing to do that.
I'm not going to inflateanybody's ego.
I'm not going to give advice.
But others can say, wow, likeyou did this, that's amazing and

(01:36:18):
that can be you.
You see them like they lightenup, they, of course they change.
So the fact that I can meetwith different men from
different cultures all togetherin the same place and we can
discuss such intimate thingslike relationships, sex
addictions, whatever they need,that, yeah, absolutely.

(01:36:41):
And none of them feels likeless of a man.

Speaker 2 (01:36:44):
No, that's what I'm saying to you.
It doesn't have to be.
As long as you don't fall intothat victim and then take that
with you everywhere.
You have every right to feel.
Just do what you need to do asa man, as a human being.
Be the provider for the family,work, be there for your wife,
be sad, feel those things, butjust don't let that take over

(01:37:04):
you, because I've seen this morethan like four cases I can't
work because of this, I'm notgood enough.
It's like no, like you can'tfall into that state like work
on yourself.
You have a family to take careof.
Now you know, and your childrenare dependent on you yes, they
are, your is also, so you have aresponsibility, just like women

(01:37:26):
, we can have postpartumdepression, but we get healed
and we move on.

Speaker 1 (01:37:31):
We struggle.
Do they receive help?

Speaker 2 (01:37:33):
Yeah, receive the help, absolutely Ask for that
and I'm very, very grateful, andI'm seeing a lot of men that
are asking for help.
Definitely, I think I'm veryproud of our culture for that.
Yeah, we've come a long way andit's not easy.

Speaker 1 (01:37:50):
And that's why this course is like we were talking
about Jordan Peterson.
I feel like they are kind oflike pulling us back again to
that place of as a man.
You are a naturally born leader, right?
What?
What you know?
What are you talking about?
I'm working at this supermarket12 hours a day to try to pay my

(01:38:14):
rent.
What does that even mean?
Or like you are in arelationship and your wife is
making more money than you, whatdoes that mean, right?
And these are the kind of like,the rigid things that I feel
like when we are talking aboutthis man who actually asked for

(01:38:35):
help, you're saying, yeah, youdon't need to feel bad for it,
you don't need to feel weak forit, but that's you, that's me,
right, that's some people.
When you open social media andI'm naming social media a lot
today because I feel like it'sdamaging, it's very hurtful,
hurting people you don't seethat, you see?

(01:38:57):
You see, like the opposite.
I mean you have the pants, man,like just deal with it, right?
You?
You see that a lot, you do youdo.

Speaker 2 (01:39:07):
There's definitely pressure to be the best, to be
the hustler, the alpha whatever.
The alpha.
But.
But I do understand whereyou're coming from and I am
agreeing with you on a certainextent.
Okay, let's just say thosethings aren't present, and then
what?

Speaker 1 (01:39:24):
What things?
The social media and all that.

Speaker 2 (01:39:26):
Let's say you don't have to be the alpha male, you
don't have to hustle, you don'thave to be that breadwinner,
that patriarchal dad.
Let's throw those out for aminute.
What else is left for men?

Speaker 1 (01:39:39):
Everything, like what ?
Absolutely everything.

Speaker 2 (01:39:41):
Like what.
Like be a caring, lovinghusband for your wife, you don't
think those things can bepresent in a hustling man well,
but they're not talked about.

Speaker 1 (01:39:50):
They are, I mean, they can absolutely be present,
but they are not talked about soyour whole thing is just talk
about it well bring it up.
If you're gonna make priority,let's be like very kind of.
I'm gonna be very absurd here,but what we like, that here okay
bring it.
What defines an alpha man isnot how caring and loving is

(01:40:10):
with his wife said.
Who said the guys who talkabout alpha man?

Speaker 2 (01:40:14):
alpha man is like you have to have six packs
expensive cars I've heard alphamen say that I care more about
my family than myself is.

Speaker 1 (01:40:23):
Is that a good thing?

Speaker 2 (01:40:24):
I mean, we are talking about care yeah but it's
kind of like thatself-sacrificing crap.

Speaker 1 (01:40:30):
I mean, you need to take care of yourself to be able
to take care of your family,that's just it.
The moment that you lostyourself into some kind of idea
of as a man.
I have to work 15 hours a dayand give them everything that
they ask me, otherwise I'mfailing.
Well, I do think that'ssustainable.

(01:40:53):
You know, how long can you dothat for?

Speaker 2 (01:40:55):
not to that level right but let's just say, let's
bring up andrew tatum okay Iknow you can't stand him, let's
just talk about it's fine, yeahyeah.
I mean, he's a great topic, he'sa good conversation and
somebody to have a debate about,but so he is very macho and he
talks about I don't believe indepression.
How many times have you heardhim say that?
A lot.
I think people who aredepressed are weak.

(01:41:15):
I don't believe in depression.
You know, I've heard him saythis in multiple reels, multiple
podcasts, and so I personallydon't believe in that.
I think that depressiondefinitely does exist and it is
present in a lot of males.
And I've also heard him saythat he cares about his partner

(01:41:37):
a lot, he cares about hischildren tremendously, he cares
about his brother, his mother,and he works very hard to
provide, but he never saidanything about oh my God, I'm
neglecting myself, so-and-so.
All I care about is my abs, butthat's portrayed differently
now.
See, that's him as being amisogynistic alpha male that's

(01:41:59):
pretending to care, whatever,whatever.
I think that when we removethose things like be a hustler,
be that type of man for your,what else is left for the man?
I can think there's love andthat care, okay, but what else?

Speaker 1 (01:42:21):
What else?

Speaker 2 (01:42:22):
Yeah, I mean again, it's just love and care.

Speaker 1 (01:42:24):
No Well, is that not a lot Like how many of us would
have dreamed.
How many of my clients I canthink, how many of Armenians or
Latinos would have wished for aloving and caring father?

Speaker 2 (01:42:44):
I would have loved for a loving, caring father who
works and who is driven, and ahustler.

Speaker 1 (01:42:49):
Why would they stop working?

Speaker 2 (01:42:51):
But I'm saying like if we take out this strong
hustling type of men, that menthat we're talking about, that's
hurting today's society.

Speaker 1 (01:42:59):
I don't think our society now, in our system, can
afford not hustling, because wewould be all like you know.

Speaker 2 (01:43:06):
but that's what they're talking about that, this
jordan peterson and all theother.
You know psychologists there.
That's what they're motivatinglike okay, you can be a loving
person, be a loving, but that'snot enough I think you have such
a gracious uh reading of them.

Speaker 1 (01:43:19):
I I don't hear that a lot from tell me what you hear
I hear from them.
Thank you for calling megracious.
Yeah, no, you have a verygracious take on reading of them
, Because what I hear a lot isfundamentally a very let's go
back to what we are madebiologically to do and what the

(01:43:46):
Bible says we should do.
And for some reason, comparingus to some Neanderthals that
lived.
You know it's completely absurd.
Like we have nothing to.
You know what are we talkingabout?
Like there's, women needprotection.
Every woman, every woman wantsprotection.
What if not?
Every woman?
Every woman wants protection.
Yeah, what if Not every?

Speaker 2 (01:44:06):
woman, and these are studies about this.

Speaker 1 (01:44:11):
How women choose their object of love changes
depending Level of education,age, financial situation, if
they have been married or notbefore, if they have kids or not
, before right, cultural aspect.
So I actually remember thisreading because it was a course

(01:44:35):
about evolutionary psychology.
So it was all about how we havebeen biologically programmed to
choose our partner, and everysingle study was debunking that.
There is not a piece ofbiological, you know, ancestral

(01:44:58):
kind of thing that a woman seesa man and is like, oh, he's
going to protect me from thewild animals that are going to
attack me, so I'm going tochoose him or I'm going to keep
the fire alive when he's goinghunting.
We are cultural beings, we aresymbolic beings.
The biological peace existsalways, but over that we have

(01:45:23):
built so much more that talkabout those things like they are
determining what a man or whata woman should do.
It just doesn't make sense.
That's why people like what'shis name?
Matt Walsh, or at least likethese guys, right, they bring up

(01:45:43):
questions that in the facevalue they seem so like obvious,
like common sense Like what isa woman?

Speaker 2 (01:45:50):
What is a woman right ?

Speaker 1 (01:45:55):
The problem is not the question.
The question is great.
The problem is that he neverread anything about the
thousands of philosophical andpsychological explanations of
the differences between thesexes.
Beyond his ignorance, theproblem is also that he's not

(01:46:16):
trying to just ask a genuinequestion.
He's trying to push a certainway of seeing things which has
worked for us.

Speaker 2 (01:46:26):
you don't think how things which has worked for us.
You don't think how well it hasworked very well, I mean look
at the society now okay, so thisis the society that we have
yeah, right now it's a shit showokay, when wasn't a shit show?
Uh, okay, so let's go back.
So you know how we were talkingabout like our dads and you
said you know, back then dadscoped with like too much work

(01:46:48):
and drinking.
Yeah, these things are stillpresent, but to this level.

Speaker 1 (01:46:54):
You have certain lightness to talk about how
abusive and alcoholic and our,our grand.
How old were your grandparentswhen they passed?

Speaker 2 (01:47:03):
How old were they?
Yeah, 80.

Speaker 1 (01:47:04):
How old?

Speaker 2 (01:47:05):
were your grandparents when they passed.
How old were they?
Yeah, 80.
One of them was 84,70-something recently, 91, and
then 80-something yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:47:13):
Okay, they're late 80s and 90s.
That's a pretty long life forwhat the average of Armenians of
that generation lives.

Speaker 2 (01:47:21):
You think so?
Yeah, I think they live prettymuch longer than what we have my
grandparents died in their mywell, one younger, but that was
69 from the like tragic heartattack no, no, he would like he
was a chain smoker, like ofcourse.

Speaker 1 (01:47:36):
You know what do you expect?

Speaker 2 (01:47:37):
right, but um because they had a life like difficult
life.
Is that what you mean by whatyou expect?

Speaker 1 (01:47:48):
Why do you think that these things that we are
talking about, that are soagainst traditional you know
normatives?

Speaker 2 (01:47:58):
Because people want the freedom to live how they
want.
Okay they want.
Okay, because those ideologies,that pressure that that
mentality doesn't really workfor them anymore, when in
reality things weren't as badbefore as they are now.
Yes, we had communism, yes, wehad a little bit more control,
but and we we had likenormalized child abuse but we do

(01:48:21):
now as well.
We have more suicidality thanwe did because people are
confused about where they are,who they are.

Speaker 1 (01:48:29):
Okay, it's too much freedom.
I think I agree with that.
It's not about freedom, butit's about questions.

Speaker 2 (01:48:34):
It's about rules, regulations, values and morals.
You don't think?

Speaker 1 (01:48:38):
What rules and regulations?

Speaker 2 (01:48:39):
Well.

Speaker 1 (01:48:41):
That's where it's all different right Depending on
culture, religious belief,ideology.
Those are different rules andregulations.

Speaker 2 (01:48:50):
Yeah, for every culture it's different.
But, okay, let's put allcultures together.
Now I feel like the mentalhealth rate is greater than
before.

Speaker 1 (01:49:00):
The issues Well, because the research is also
greater.
Well, because the research isalso greater.
Until a couple of decades ago,there was absolutely no research
in the meaningful way of whatwe are dealing with.

Speaker 2 (01:49:13):
I mean okay.

Speaker 1 (01:49:15):
Okay, I can say I'll agree with you.

Speaker 2 (01:49:17):
Can't argue with logic, but yeah, I mean Research
wasn't there, but we heard.

Speaker 1 (01:49:22):
Your parent.
Tell your dad why don't you goto a psychologist?
I'm not crazy.
I will tell my mom I'm apsychologist.

Speaker 2 (01:49:29):
I told my dad that.
You know what his answer wasI've.
I've learned to cope with it.
Okay, I I've learned to managemyself and and heal and cope
with it.
I don't know.
I feel.
Yes, there are some men in inolder generation smoking, heart
attacks, cancers but my wholething is what those therapists

(01:49:54):
and psychologists are preachingis something was working before.
Sure, that is not now, and Ithink when people are given,
when, when a 17-year-old isgiven so much freedom, he's not
going to know what to do withthat freedom.
Children or just people ingeneral, when they're given too
much freedom, it's like givingan 18-year-old $2 million People

(01:50:17):
who have won the lottery.
What's the history behind that?
I mean, look at all thedocumentaries.
They've all failed, because youcannot give a mediocre class
from Arkansas $360 million.
He's not going to know how tomanage that money.

Speaker 1 (01:50:30):
So the problem is not only freedom but with that
freedom certain abandonment ofthe person.
Right, you can always givefreedoms to somebody but not
take away your guidance from himright.
Yeah, like your support, becauseI do agree.
I'm not saying like everythingis great now, by no means.
But you asked me about men'smental health and what I see is

(01:50:55):
the consequences of veryproblematic parenting styles.
Right, so we are not just ageneration of crazy people who
one day decided to be free.
We are people who just feltlike the institutions are not
relatable anymore.

(01:51:15):
Does that make sense?
Like it's not like we have lostour faith.
It's that it's really hard torelate to church anymore.
Like it's not that we don'tbelieve in good relationships,
but perhaps the idea that if youget married and you decide to

(01:51:35):
get divorced, that's a big sinand you're going to go to hell
is not relatable anymore.

Speaker 2 (01:51:41):
Why do you think that is?

Speaker 1 (01:51:42):
Because we have capacity to think and evolve as
a society.

Speaker 2 (01:51:46):
That's the issue.

Speaker 1 (01:51:47):
Why is it the issue?

Speaker 2 (01:51:48):
Well before it were.
As I said, you know things ofthat sort.
Those are called values, morals, regulations, right Like
following….

Speaker 1 (01:51:56):
Sorry, I want to interrupt you for a second.
No, no, no, please, would yousay it worked.

Speaker 2 (01:52:00):
How large are divorce rates right now?

Speaker 1 (01:52:02):
Yeah, it's like 50% or something.
How large are divorce ratesright now?

Speaker 2 (01:52:04):
Yeah, it's like 50% or something it's pretty big
compared to what it was maybe 20, 30 years ago.

Speaker 1 (01:52:08):
And again because before if you got divorced.
I mean, I know women in Armeniawere beaten up because they
chose to divorce.

Speaker 2 (01:52:20):
But Tigran women are beaten up, even now, that's
besides the point True, and it'sbeing reported more.

Speaker 1 (01:52:26):
Yes, there are laws against it.

Speaker 2 (01:52:28):
But the belief system was stronger.
Having the belief, you can beOkay.

Speaker 1 (01:52:32):
Yeah.
No, you're getting to a greatpoint and this is very, very
important to me, and this is whyI have, like, fundamental
differences in what I thinkmental health should be about.
Sure, and what it is becomingright and what it is Is the fact

(01:52:53):
that answers are so good tohave.
We can have answers from thechurch, from school, from the
freaking DSM right.
We can have answers from ourdoctor, we can have a diagnosis

(01:53:17):
right.
So what answers do?
Is they stop any possibility ofquestioning anything?
How many times you may haveheard it was such a relief to
get the diagnosis of ADHD.
It was such a relief of gettingthat right.
Now I know that you know I canlook for, I can ask for help.

(01:53:38):
Or now I know what's going onwhen you think about how we have
built our value system or theseinstitutions.
These are not institutions thatpromote questioning.

Speaker 2 (01:53:50):
What institution are we talking about?

Speaker 1 (01:53:52):
Well, we're talking about churches, authoritarian
governments, right, Like well,in the communist government,
there's no religion necessarily,but there is some kind of like
very rigid….

Speaker 2 (01:54:04):
Something to follow right.

Speaker 1 (01:54:06):
I mean not only to follow but to not question,
because I can follow my dadright, but I also can have my
differences and we can debateabout it, right, and I can
choose to take some things andleave some things, and that's a
good guidance, that's a goodkind of let's call it leadership

(01:54:26):
, whatever right, but if I haveno opportunity to ask myself
questions, it's such a peacefulthing, it's such a peaceful
mindset because I don't have tothink what's right, what's wrong
.
It's in this book.
I don't have to think what do Iwant in my life, because

(01:54:49):
somebody has determined alreadywhat a woman should want or what
a man should want.
I don't have.
So when we talk about diagnosistool, I'm sorry, it's not like
you know, i'm'm distracted.
It's my adhd, right, okay, why,why?

(01:55:11):
Why is so almost pleasant thatyou have that kind of like the
joker card, right?
Like, why is, why do you?
Why is it so pleasant to haveanswers for everything?
It saves us from the anxiety ofnot knowing.
I embrace, I like the fact thatand I think, in fact, that any

(01:55:33):
therapeutic process shouldencompass this moment where we
disrupt, we deconstruct any kindof truth that a person could
have about themselves, whichcreates a lot of.
That's the place where theclient is saying, well, I was
doing better.
Now this is like making me feelworse is the moment where

(01:55:56):
you're starting to unveil theselayers of narrative stories,
labels.

Speaker 2 (01:56:01):
Let's get down to the point.
Is God real?
Is that what you're getting atLike Christianity?
Is God real?

Speaker 1 (01:56:05):
Is that what you're getting at?
Like Christianity, it's real inthe sense of it has real
implications in society.

Speaker 2 (01:56:12):
So you're not a believer.

Speaker 1 (01:56:15):
Again, I'm a believer in the fact that, as long as
you believe, that has realimplications.
And it's such a huge kind oflike concept that even if I say,
well, I don't believe in God,that's not going to save me from
well, now I'm opposing to God,right, Like it's such a I do

(01:56:38):
believe in certain kind of likeidea.

Speaker 2 (01:56:39):
It's a beautiful conversation, yeah.
People don't have this type ofconversation anymore.

Speaker 1 (01:56:45):
No, no, and respectfully, obviously, you
know, I don't think people don'thave this type of conversations
anymore.

Speaker 2 (01:56:48):
No, and we can, and respectfully, obviously, you
know it's important.

Speaker 1 (01:56:49):
I believe in god in the sense, not in a christian
sense necessarily, or not in thesense of like this guy with the
beard up there looking you knowlooks like zeus yeah, let's see
who made a sin today so I canlike punish him, right like that
.
That sounds like more like anosy neighbor than a God, but I
do feel like there is some kindof like call it like

(01:57:15):
spirituality energy, somethingthat will remain forever, you
know, untouchable.

Speaker 2 (01:57:26):
But what happens if you didn't have that?
How would you be.

Speaker 1 (01:57:30):
I don't think there's anybody who doesn't have that.
I think we all have.

Speaker 2 (01:57:35):
A belief.

Speaker 1 (01:57:36):
Yeah, even the people who say Atheists, particularly
they don't have a belief.

Speaker 2 (01:57:41):
They do have.
You think so.

Speaker 1 (01:57:42):
Yeah, atheists are more believers in God than
believers themselves.
You think so Because theirwhole identity is like well, I
don't believe in God.
Agnostics, I mean call itwhatever you want.
You can reduce a human being tojust electrical connections and
neural.
Electrical connections andneural, but whenever you are,

(01:58:10):
whenever you are truly talkingto a person, whenever you are
truly connected with yourfeelings, whenever you are truly
able to a pet, a dog, a baby,nature, whatever you want, you
see that there is something thatgoes beyond that.
If it's real or not, or ifthere is a scientific
explanation or not, doesn't evenmatter, like there is something

(01:58:32):
else and, um, I think it'sthose who are very, very kind of
like, obsessively in denial ofanything spiritual, or those who
are the non-believers?
Yeah, it's more thannon-believer.
It's kind of like I believe innot believing, right, like it's

(01:58:55):
kind of like fully that that'smy identity.
I feel like it's more aboutthem appeasing their mind of
having questions that are goingto remain unanswered.
In the same way that I feellike Christians and I'm talking
about Christians because we areArmenians of having questions
that are going to remainunanswered.
In the same way that I feellike Christians and I'm talking
about Christians because we areArmenians are obsessed with the
idea of having a God that isgoing to give me answers for

(01:59:16):
everything.
Right, same other religions.
But I think that believing inGod should also mean that you
believe in that God gives youcapacity to think, rethink and
question.

Speaker 2 (01:59:35):
That's what you just said right there.
Yeah, god gave you the capacity, so that's what I'm talking
about.
It goes back to that same thingthat you were saying earlier,
that why should we have somebodytell us how to live, how to be.
My thing to that is my argumentto what you're saying is that
people, I don't care what ageyou are when you are born,

(01:59:57):
you're born with a blank script,white piece of paper that has
nothing on that.
And when you don't have nothingon that paper, you, how are you
going to live?
in a sense of control.

Speaker 1 (02:00:10):
You cannot manage yourself of course, baby psyches
hasn't developed baby psyches,but humans too so.

Speaker 2 (02:00:17):
So we need a sense of direction.
I'm not saying fully control aperson to that level of like
communism.
There's no way, you know.
But, people need that direction.
As you just said beautifully,god gave you a mind, so you
already know that there's ahierarchy up there.
That's giving you a sense ofdirection.

Speaker 1 (02:00:38):
I'm saying if you believe in God, if you believe
in God, you should also believethat God gave you the capacity
to question things.

Speaker 2 (02:00:46):
But he's the one who gave you that capacity.
If you believe in God, youshould also believe that God
gives you the capacity toquestion things, but he's the
one who gave you that capacity.

Speaker 1 (02:00:48):
If you believe in him , right, if you believe in him.
Now I don't have answers.
I mean, if I had the answers Iwould be the most famous person
in the world, but I don't havethe answers for it.
I know that for me I just don'tfeel it Like I can connect to
that idea of of God.

(02:01:08):
But I do believe in the idea oflike some common energy and
life.

Speaker 2 (02:01:13):
You know like something, something beyond
material.
I do.

Speaker 1 (02:01:16):
And the what you were saying, the blank slave, when,
when you were having your babyright, the first baby, let's say
, or the second doesn't matter,you chose a name before they got
here.

Speaker 2 (02:01:33):
Yes, we did.

Speaker 1 (02:01:35):
You imagine all these things that this baby is going
to do, the languages thatthey're going to speak, how
they're going to treat theirbrother or their sister.
So they are not born into ablank slave, they are born into
Into a sense of directionalready.
Yes, Without that it would be.

(02:01:56):
I don't know what would happen,right, but we are all born into
the symbolic, the language, theother, as Lacan would say.
Right, we are born into that.

Speaker 2 (02:02:07):
We are born into what was already given to us.

Speaker 1 (02:02:09):
Now, with that we can do and undo certain things, but
the reality is that there arekind of like two extremes here,
which I feel like.
That's why I'm so gratefulabout psychoanalysis, because
you have the more like Cartesianthinkers, like we are, you know

(02:02:29):
, I think.
Therefore I am right.
So I innately have a capacity ofthinking, so I have a self,
right.
And then you have the mostpostmodern thinkers that are
well, we are a byproduct of asociety that we also are
producing, right?
Well, and then you know, howdid that happen?

(02:02:55):
In a way, right, how did weproduce a society?
How did we create a society?
And if that's true, then whyare individuals so different?
So there is something about theuniqueness of each human being
that is different.

Speaker 2 (02:03:10):
We think differently, of course, we process things
differently Different biology,different perspectives is a
piece of the subject that cannever be fully possessed or

(02:03:36):
dominated by whatever narrativeright.

Speaker 1 (02:03:39):
There is something and you are saying, like, why
are all these changes happening?
Because, no matter how strongthe institutions, there is a
piece of the human being thatgoes beyond that right, that
cannot be dominated and thatbuilds a subject, a human being
like a?
Um, you know, it's not abyproduct of the society, but

(02:04:03):
it's also not a biologicallyborn, you know thing?
Um, it's born a byproduct ofthe society, but it's also not a
biologically born, you knowthing.
It's born through a language,you know, born into a language,
into a symbolic, you knowuniverse, and it does something
with it, right, and that's kindof like, basically the
expression of like I am, what Ido with what happens to me or

(02:04:25):
what is given to me.
There is, there's that piece ofsingular thing that we have to
kind of rescue constantly aboutthe human.

Speaker 2 (02:04:34):
Why do you think that it's rescuing?

Speaker 1 (02:04:36):
because otherwise um we end up alienating into these
absolute discourses right whichis happening now uh, which which
has always happened, like ifyou, if you think of more, so
now I would agree in which way?

Speaker 2 (02:04:54):
I mean look at everything that's happening
around you what is that?
It's so terrifying uh, it's notterrifying, it's disturbing
what, what exactly?
The changes in human beings ingeneral.
I mean, you know belief systems, let's just go.
There is decreasingsubstantially, divorce
decreasing substantially.
The behaviors in humans arechanging and again I'll validate

(02:05:17):
we're not generalizing but weare talking about society and
human beings that there's moreharm now than good.

Speaker 1 (02:05:24):
Well, we're just talking about men finally
opening up to seek for help.
That's a good thing yeah, we'retalking about not condone, not
condoning, um, child abuse.
That's a good thing.
You know we are talking about,uh, giving certain freedoms for
people to think.
You know, I know that you knowmy kids someday may choose to be

(02:05:52):
religious or to not bereligious, and that respect of
whatever they're going to chooseand they can give my opinion,
of course, and I have influenceon them, but that's a progress,
that's respecting the capacityof each human being to think.
It's very interesting becausewhen I had a call from a very

(02:06:17):
concerned mother because herdaughter was identifying as a
furry and she was like you know,a what A furry?
Like an animal, animal, like acat or something, right, um?
my goodness yeah, that's uh, youknow it's beyond my expertise,
I don't.
I don't understand much of it,but the the interesting piece

(02:06:38):
about this was this kid reallydesperately needed to belong
somewhere and she's she hadexpressed that right.
And the mother said well, youknow who wants to belong?
Well, everybody wants to belong.
The problem was that hersolution was I'm going to impose

(02:06:58):
my values and my belief and myidentity on her, so she stops
with all this crap.
That doesn't make sense to me.
So she took her to Armeniandances, to the church,
religiously.
Like reading this, one couldsay that's a good thing.
It's a good thing if the kid ison board.

(02:07:21):
You can push them a little bit,of course, you know, because
you know as a parent you have todo a little bit of that of if
you know what's good for them,you encourage them, you know.

Speaker 2 (02:07:34):
But If it's done tastefully, the kid wouldn't
have to identify as a furry.
But if the child is pushed andbullied into like I see it so
many times like Christianity,religion is pushed on children
in a very untasteful way.
That's not what I'm talkingabout.
I'm not talking about theobsession with religion because

(02:07:54):
I don't believe in obsessions.
I don't like them, I thinkthey're kind of cringey.
But I am talking about having aproper, tasteful belief system
and maybe, yes, taking yourdaughter to a dance tastefully,
not forcefully.
So, there's a way to parent, butwe shouldn't not condition the

(02:08:16):
child or have you know rules,regulations, morals, values
implemented in a family, becausethat's going to hurt the child.

Speaker 1 (02:08:25):
If it's done right, like connecting, yeah all of
those things, I would argue thatthere is no way of not doing
that, like you want it or notyeah, you are kind of like
giving them certain message Ithink you have to.

Speaker 2 (02:08:38):
Well, is there a way of not needed?

Speaker 1 (02:08:40):
like, if I don't give any message, am I not still
giving them a message?

Speaker 2 (02:08:44):
do you know how many people are out there living like
that and parenting like that?
The lazy affairs.

Speaker 1 (02:08:49):
Okay, but to my point , that also means something when
I'm not giving them a set ofrules and values and norms to
follow.
Yeah Right, as you were saying.

Speaker 2 (02:09:03):
Traditional ways.
Yeah, I love the traditionalways yeah, no, and that's fine.

Speaker 1 (02:09:08):
See, that's kind of like the the part that I don't
have any problem with it.
Um, still, there are somepeople who are not doing it the
traditional way, but they stillhave amazing values and they
care and it's like very healthy,um kind of like relationships
and families.

(02:09:28):
Yeah, but then there is what Iguess you are talking about,
which is the absolute.
I'm gonna well, the child knowswhat the child knows, you know,
like, and so I am hands off,like, let's do yeah, that
freedom.
That's what I'm talking aboutit's horrible because it's a

(02:09:49):
fake freedom it's not real andit's destroying today's society
with.

Speaker 2 (02:09:53):
That's why we have so many kids identifying it why
it's in my reading.

Speaker 1 (02:09:57):
Why is that so problematic?

Speaker 2 (02:10:00):
what is the too much freedom?

Speaker 1 (02:10:02):
yes, because the parent is like I'm not going to
guide them, I'm not going totell them what to do.
If they like something, theycan do it.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:10:11):
No, I don't think that's.

Speaker 1 (02:10:13):
Okay, the problem with that is that you are not
saying anything, but perhaps youexpress certain disappointment
with your face.
Even so, you're not only takingthem, taking away the
possibility for them to kind oflike find out what do I do to

(02:10:36):
make you love me.
You know, like kids want to youknow, how happy they get when
they do something.
Oh, you did such a great job,that's everything to them, right
?
That's amazing.
You are taking that away fromthem.
So now they are hunting forsomething that they can do to
impress you.
But there is no rule, there isno guidance, right?

Speaker 2 (02:10:55):
What do you think will happen if a child doesn't
have a parent to impress?

Speaker 1 (02:10:58):
And that's what I'm talking about.
If the parent disappears.

Speaker 2 (02:11:00):
Isn't that dangerous also?
It's dangerous also.

Speaker 1 (02:11:02):
I think they live in a that creates.
In my understanding, that's oneof the worst anxieties that any
child could have.

Speaker 2 (02:11:14):
To impress their parent.

Speaker 1 (02:11:15):
To not know how.

Speaker 2 (02:11:17):
Yes to not know how.
Yeah, Because I think to notknow how comes from a rejective
parent.

Speaker 1 (02:11:27):
No matter what I do is not good enough.

Speaker 2 (02:11:29):
Or to a parent that accepts everything in the same
level.

Speaker 1 (02:11:30):
Yeah, so I got a C.
Good, I got an A.
Yes, you're in third place.

Speaker 2 (02:11:33):
I killed the dog, yes , so this goes back to exactly
what I'm saying and it can comeoff wrong, but what I'm saying
is our traditional ways haveworked, but you can turn that
around.
You don't have to be thatbeating up dad and beating up
mom dad.
You can turn a twist to it, alittle bit of modern, by maybe

(02:11:53):
telling your kids that you lovethem, that you appreciate them
and that you're proud of them.
But something was working inthe past and we can't say that
traditional dads were all aboutbeating you up and drinking.

Speaker 1 (02:12:06):
No, of course not, because those values were so
beautiful.

Speaker 2 (02:12:09):
Christianity, the belief system, morals and values
are who we are today because ofthat.
Look at your successfultherapist.
In how many different countries.

Speaker 1 (02:12:20):
No, now, I'm just here.

Speaker 2 (02:12:22):
Now you're just here, but in Argentina too.
You've worked, you've studied.
That's beautiful.
You're very intelligent, you'veread, you're very intellectual,
you're very well seasoned.

Speaker 1 (02:12:33):
I was very, very lucky, also because there was a
system that allowed me to studyfor like.
First of all.

Speaker 2 (02:12:48):
I grew up in a household where everything was
about reading and explaining.

Speaker 1 (02:12:49):
So I started to read even before going to school,
right, and I loved it and Istill love reading.
But in Argentina, I think, wasthe biggest shift and I'm so
grateful for that country foreverything, because they gave me
the best education.
I didn't have to pay for it.

Speaker 2 (02:13:06):
Yes, I was just going to say free.

Speaker 1 (02:13:09):
And it gave me just the opportunity to learn so much
.
Now, one of the things that itwas so different was the culture
of shock, right Like the movingfrom Armenia to Argentina.

Speaker 2 (02:13:22):
And then here.

Speaker 1 (02:13:23):
And then here.
But here in Argentina it's likemore similar Armenia to
Argentina, it's like hugedifference.
And I remember how difficultwas it for my parents to
understand that I can havecertain type of relationships
with people.

(02:13:44):
I can have friends who are notnecessarily like same race, same
language or sexual preferenceor you know all of these things.
It took them a while to accept,and understandably so right,
like they grew up in the USSRand understandably so right,
like they grew up in the USSR.

(02:14:20):
But the discourse was betweenArmenians and between, like the
people that I, at least I met,was you should never date an
Argentinian because they don'tbelieve in the family.
You should never let your kid,you know, not do certain things
because that you should only goto an Armenian school.
The fear of the difference, thefear of what is different, as
always a bad thing, has chasedus for a long time.
We think that what we know isthe good way is the safe way,

(02:14:47):
because, yes, it's scary whenit's something new, it's
different it's scary.
And I see it like Armeniancouples who are struggling but
they think that they aretogether because only Armenians
believe in family values, right,so Americans don't, right, and

(02:15:09):
we have made believe that thatif it's not a Christian partner
then it won't ever work, becauseif he's not Christian then he
doesn't also believe in familyvalues and raising our kids, you
know.
So there's always that piece ofwhen we see something that is
truly other to us, either wewant to consume it into or we

(02:15:34):
want to eliminate it.
And the beauty of everything iswhen we can appreciate the
otherness of the other same withtwo people right, when we can
appreciate that women and menare so different and still build
something from that differenceyou know what I think sometimes
I feel like that's that fearthat you're talking about, that

(02:15:54):
parents uh you know portray ontheir kids like marry christian,
marry armenian.

Speaker 2 (02:15:59):
I think subconsciously it has a lot to
do with the intergenerationaltrauma, that it's not
necessarily racism, because somepeople can classify that as
armenians being racist, but it'smore about we are fairly racist
every call, every I don't carewhat you say, I don't care if
you're black, I don't care ifyou're brown, if you're white.
Everybody has racism in them,that's just.

Speaker 1 (02:16:22):
You might not have yeah, anybody admit it, but it's
, it's a fact, unconsciously,unconsciously for sure.

Speaker 2 (02:16:29):
But, um, I think armenians have a subconscious
fear of losing their culture andthere is this fear behind that.
So it comes off as don't marrythis black person, don't marry
this you know hispanic person.
But behind that voice is man.

Speaker 1 (02:16:43):
Like you know, I don't, I don't want to I, I hear
you and I think that you knowthe genocide obviously had a lot
to do with it, right?

Speaker 2 (02:16:51):
if anything, I think it has everything to do with
that, and the implications likeimmigration and all of that.

Speaker 1 (02:16:58):
Yeah, now to your point, and I I'm totally, I
totally agree with you.
When we talk about respectingour culture and you know there
is a lot of narrative about,like, cultural competence, then
that was like a little bit tooproblematic and they change it

(02:17:19):
to cultural sensitivity orcultural awareness.
You know, in our field, right,like in mental health, usually
we talk about diversity and allof these things, which is great,
which is great, but there islike a lot of things that are
lacking still in thoseconversations and there is some
kind of like problem there where, just because I respect and I'm

(02:17:43):
aware of our cultural valuesand differences, it shouldn't be
a reason to not criticize itand try to improve it.
And that's kind of like what Ithink I guess we are a little
bit talking about, where we cantake something that had good and
bad in it, right, and try tolearn from what we are seeing

(02:18:07):
now, because it's not like thisgeneration is a generation of
stupid people who don't knowanything of anything.
We can learn from our kids, wecan learn from teenagers, we can
learn from younger generationsimplementing change and see if
we can, because it's not.
It shouldn't be even like.
How can I put this?
What is the option you can?

(02:18:29):
I mean imposing?
This has failed.

Speaker 2 (02:18:33):
Imposing Mary O'Kine, kind of Imposing the old ways
right, imposing the old ways hasfailed.

Speaker 1 (02:18:38):
You think so.
That ship, you can see it,hasn't it?
It has failed.
Churches are struggling to getpeople in, you know, because if
it's not some specific day, mostof the people prefer to, like,
sit in their BMW and, you know,drive like crazy in England not
to go to the church.
Right, but the old-fashionedways have failed.

Speaker 2 (02:19:01):
They're failing because our generation is
accepting those new ways you andI are failing.

Speaker 1 (02:19:08):
But I'm happy about that, I'm not.
I'm happy about that and I'mtelling you.

Speaker 2 (02:19:12):
It's two different things, for sure.

Speaker 1 (02:19:14):
I grew up in Argentina and you grew up you
know so it's.
I understand that and I respectthat.
What I'm saying that I'm happyabout is that this brings an
opportunity for change andimprovement.

Speaker 2 (02:19:28):
Change and improvement are different and I
agree with you that maybe changeand improvement needs to be
implicated, but this is notchange.
This is completely somethingdifferent.
Not going to church becauseblaming the church for failing
no, I'm failing because myparents went to church Sundays.
I'm not going to church becausemy life is different, maybe my

(02:19:49):
belief system is different.
It's not the church failing I'mfailing, so therefore my kids
will be failing and so on and soforth.
Now, when you go to church, butI do go to church every sunday,
just right, right, right and soyou go to church every Sunday,
just FYI, right, right, right,and so you go to church.
Yes, I'm keeping that tradition, and because you have your
faith in God.
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (02:20:09):
And that's amazing, and for me there is a
distinction between that andchurch per se yeah, you don't
have to.

Speaker 2 (02:20:16):
Yeah, I agree.
I agree to a certain degree,but when you go to.

Speaker 1 (02:20:19):
We're talking about the institution.
Yeah, when I go there and thepastor you know whoever that is
right starts to preach andwhatever he's saying and I'm not
judging if it's good or bad,I'm just saying whatever he's
saying is so disconnected fromthe problems and the worries and

(02:20:42):
the existential things that weare experiencing now.
Then you start to fail as aninstitution and the worries and
the existential things that weare experiencing now, then you
start to fail as an institution,because the reason why we want
to go to church is because webelieve that we're going to find
some kind of guidance, answers,comfort right, yeah.
When that is lacking, it's notwe that are failing, because we

(02:21:04):
don't have the fault for ourproblems to be modern.
We we live in a modern societyand our problems are different
from right century ago yeah so,but this is why you don't, if
you're not connecting with apriest preaching.

Speaker 2 (02:21:18):
That's why you turn to the bible, that's why you
turn to the words of god.

Speaker 1 (02:21:21):
And again, you know what I'm saying but again, for
example, and we are only talkingabout the Christian faith, but
the institution fails.
So if I don't believe in thisbuilding with this priest, even
if I believe in God, I feel likehe's not even preaching the

(02:21:44):
word of God, he's just preachingsomething else.
Right?
I have lost faith in thisinstitution.

Speaker 2 (02:21:48):
I'm not going to lose my faith in institution because
of he's preaching incorrectly.

Speaker 1 (02:21:52):
You may, okay, but then what are you believing in
God?
Okay, God, but we're talkingabout the church.

Speaker 2 (02:21:59):
Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
So, yeah, you can have priestslike that are preaching
something that's not even intoday's world.
Like what is this priesttalking about?
Right At the end, they give abeautiful speech, they're
talking about life and changeand being good and you're just
not really connecting.
That doesn't mean that I'mgoing to lose the faith of my
Christianity.
100% Right, the institution.

(02:22:20):
I understand and I've hadexperiences with institutions
that go a little bit beyond whatmy comfort is and I'm like no,
but that will never make mechange my faith and how I view
God and Christianity.

Speaker 1 (02:22:35):
So this is your particular experience.
We are talking about newgenerations that are a little
bit different.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:22:44):
Today's generation just wants to see it.
Show me god, I'll believe ingod maybe yeah, but they're so
great at believing witches, wellyou know, and witchcraft and
all these other perhaps, but butI mean overall.

Speaker 1 (02:22:57):
You know, um, I see, for example, like in judaism,
right, um, not, I again I'm not.
I'm not gonna like generalizebecause it's so, for example,
like in Judaism, right, again,I'm not going to generalize
because it's so big, right, butI have seen rabbis talk in a way

(02:23:17):
that you are like, oh wow, likethis person is really down to
earth, in touch with thesepeople's needs, and you see then
younger kids completelyrelating to this rabbi, right,
and there are some priests whoalso do that, who are capable of
doing that.
But there is an overall thing,which is, I think, what you are

(02:23:39):
talking about, which isinstitutions like religious
institutions, schools, thepolice, the government have lost
credibility.

Speaker 2 (02:23:48):
Some yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:23:49):
Yeah, and that can create a sense of chaos, because
those are kind of likeorganizers of the society.

Speaker 2 (02:23:57):
right, they've lost credibility because of how we
look, go back to saying the samething, right, like our
grandparents, church believers,you know, fond of church, like
you have to go to church, but weare not continuing that
generation, right, we're notcontinuing that because our
belief system is different, ourlife is different, so we lose
touch with that lifestyle.

(02:24:18):
It's the same thing with copsLike their generation might be
fond of cops, like policeofficers are great, you know,
like priests are great, but wesee them differently.
So I think that we, ourgeneration, we have such a big
responsibility of how we'reportraying society.

Speaker 1 (02:24:34):
But aren't they, don't they have?

Speaker 2 (02:24:36):
Yeah, they have responsibility in it too.

Speaker 1 (02:24:38):
Absolutely, that's kind of like for me, you have to
give institutions because theyhave more power than me, or you,
right, and what are they doingwith that power?

Speaker 2 (02:24:51):
Yeah, for sure, certain institutions are abusing
that power.
But is that a reason to bewhere we are today.

Speaker 1 (02:24:58):
But I'm wondering about this, and this is a
genuine question when do youthink we are today?

Speaker 2 (02:25:02):
I don't think as a society, I think we're failing
as a society.
Society for sure.
I don't care if you say we'retalking about men's health or
not.
Everybody is struggling withsomething why is that?
because we don't have foundation.
I think that people have beenleft to live freely and people
don't know what to do with that,and freedom can be so many

(02:25:24):
things, but the foundation, thebelief, the morals, the values
it's decreasing from so manyfamilies and that's not okay,
because this is why I go back towhat was working in the past.
But then certain people say,and like this conversation well,
the past, you know, our dadswere beating us up.
There were alcoholics.
We have more dads right nowthat are committing suicide us

(02:25:45):
up, there were alcoholics.
We have more dads right nowthat are committing suicide,
cheating and alcoholics, drugaddicts, than versus before.
You can't say, before theydidn't talk about it, okay, now
they're talking about it, nowthey're very loud about it.
It's not very, it's nothealthier.
I think that we need to be moreawake, we need to be more
conscious and we need to seewhat's going on in the world,
not just be blind by.

(02:26:06):
You know, men have feelings,women have feelings and we
should.
Yes, those things are important.
Of course those things areimportant.
But, okay, what are we doingabout it?
We're not doing anything aboutit.
We're being victims about it.
We're sharing, we're not movingforward, we're not healing from
it and we're continuing toscrew our kids up.

Speaker 1 (02:26:24):
For me, there's a big , key kind of like point in this
conversation, which is if webelieve that we have achieved,
as a society, the ultimate truthand the ultimate progress and

(02:26:45):
all of these kind of like youknow things that you know we are
not racist anymore, we areinclusive and we are all kind of
like we have improved all thesethings that were failing in the
past.
The problem is going to be thatFailing in the past.
I mean talking about, I thinkthat's the issue today.

Speaker 2 (02:27:03):
in the past I mean talking about.
I think that's the issue today.

Speaker 1 (02:27:06):
We are in a country that we it wouldn't be very wise
to say that we haven't beenracist Not we but they haven't
been racist.

Speaker 2 (02:27:12):
Yes, that for sure until today.
But the inclusivity?

Speaker 1 (02:27:16):
It hasn't been inclusive.
I think Include who?
Well we are talking aboutmental health and we know that
until the 73, gay people weredeemed like mentally ill,
Although even like Freud in 1938had that letter saying like you

(02:27:37):
know, being homosexual is not amental health disorder.
Yeah, so whatever it was thecase, there was like, and my
point is if we think thatwhatever we had in the past or
whatever we have now should bethe only truth, should be the

(02:28:02):
only thing existing, because theother is bad or this is, we are
kind of like doom, because tenyears from now, all the people
that think that we are superprogressive and, you know, super
liberal, whatever if my childor you know hears me talk today,

(02:28:25):
god knows how many politicallyincorrect things have- I said
right.
God knows, because that ischanging always.
I don't think that's a badthing.
Think is that when it servescertain people who have been

(02:28:52):
suffered because whatever thenarrative has been in, you know,
um has really damaged them,like you know, gay people not
being able to get married, right, like, or, uh, we're talking
about men's and men's mentalhealth issues, right, whenever,
whenever these are like trueneeds, right of people who
haven't found a place to existin the society, I think that's

(02:29:12):
progress, I think that'sinclusivity.
Whenever I feel like it hasbecome this almost like, uh, we
don't even know what is that weare talking about and we don't.
There is no consultation withexperts.
You know, I'm not claimingmyself as an expert, but, like,

(02:29:37):
if you are going to set a law,or you're going to change
something in the educationalsystem, or you're going to yeah,
you're going to create thisdiscourse based on the fact that
you want to do good for society, there should be some experts
backing you up.
If not, then when we get engagedin these two extreme political

(02:30:02):
ideologies not that they areextreme, because none of them is
extreme, but they are extremelypolarized and it's completely
pointless Like you're eitheralienated to this ideology or
alienated to this ideology.
Meanwhile, the people who youshould be advocating for keep

(02:30:24):
being in between and sufferingright Like.
For me, that's kind of like thebig problem.
I don't think that we shouldjust destroy institutions
because they're old andpatriarchal or whatever.
I think we can revise them.
I can.
Revise them to what we canrevise them and see if they need

(02:30:44):
to adapt to the current needsof the society.
I don't think that we shouldabolish schools, but we
certainly have revised what'sthe role of a teacher in the
classroom, right, and now it'sgood in some aspects, it's bad
in some other aspects, but I wasbeaten in school, right, like

(02:31:07):
that's not cool.
Why was that something acceptedas a norm back then?
Right, well, we changed that.
That's a good thing, that's agood change.
Well, right, well, we changedthat.
That's a good thing, that's agood change.

Speaker 2 (02:31:16):
Well, I'd have to disagree with that.
Do you think it's changed?
So you were physically beaten,right?
Yeah, but now I think thatlet's just not go far.
Right, let's just talk aboutsince you're going to be a
future dad and I'm a mom right,let's not go too far.
Let's talk about what'shappening in today's society

(02:31:37):
with all this inclusivity thatwe were talking about, right?
So everybody wants to beincluded.
Doesn't matter if you, you know, identify as a furry.
Doesn't matter if you are a man, identify as a woman.
You need to be inclusive.
We all have to be inclusive,because those men that identify
women, they deserve to go intothe women's bathrooms, right?
So that's, that's inclusivity,right?
Like we have to love and accepteverybody and include them.

(02:32:00):
So okay, fine, let's say weteachers are not beating us up
anymore, but they are acceptingthe delusions and the confusions
of children who identify asfurry.
Isn't that that a beating?

Speaker 1 (02:32:14):
What a topic?
So what?
I think it's perhaps tied towhat I was saying before.

Speaker 2 (02:32:22):
If you're comfortable talking about this of course.
Yeah, no, sure, sure, but Iknow that you're licensed and I
don't want you to feel safe andcomfortable.

Speaker 1 (02:32:29):
No, no that's fine, and for me again, here is the
part where the opinion of theexperts should matter.

Speaker 2 (02:32:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:32:37):
Because I feel like the ideological use of these
very important things are kindof problematic.

Speaker 2 (02:32:49):
Yeah, because those institutions sorry to cut you
off, those institutions thatyou're talking about, are not
very supportive, are beingcrucified for their….

Speaker 1 (02:32:58):
But you know, supportive of… this is the thing
.
The problem is not inclusion ornot, because if we are talking
about not including these peoplelet's say transgender people
right yeah, what do you do?
You segregate them.

Speaker 2 (02:33:15):
No, you call them out and you heal them the way that
they should be healed.
It's a delusion.
Okay, dig down, let's talkabout this.

Speaker 1 (02:33:23):
How, how, how I want to, this is this is, this is my
problem.

Speaker 2 (02:33:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:33:28):
When we talk about transgender people, there is so
many different factors that cancreate the need for a person to
change their gender identity.
Now, I think the absurdity thatperhaps we are getting into is,

(02:33:52):
in one hand, when people sayit's all biological.
If your body says something,you are that.
When it's not true, becauseit's not only about having a
penis or not there is likehormone level, chromosomes and
there is like a part of thebrain.
There is a lot of researchabout how you know some men.

Speaker 2 (02:34:13):
You know I'm not going to get into neuroscience
because I don't know much, butso what you're saying is, if a
man is born with a penis, he'snot supposed to identify himself
as a man.
He can be different things.

Speaker 1 (02:34:24):
I'm saying that having a penis is not sufficient
for you to identify as a man,because there are so many other
things, even just biologically.

Speaker 2 (02:34:33):
Oh, so there's other factors.

Speaker 1 (02:34:34):
Right, and we are not including social parts.
We are just saying,biologically, male genitalia is
not enough to you know.

Speaker 2 (02:34:47):
Yeah, what do you think is enough?

Speaker 1 (02:34:49):
So my point here is in one hand, we are saying that
if you are born with a penis,then you are a man.
No discussion about it, whenacross culture, historically,
transgenderism existed, andalways.
And now is it gender dysphoria.

(02:35:14):
Is it something that you canheal or is it something that
it's a problem?
Well, I know transgender peoplewho are healthy people and they
don't need really to healanything, right?

Speaker 2 (02:35:27):
There are some very.
I've met some very conservativetransgender individuals.

Speaker 1 (02:35:31):
There are people they can have different mentalities,
but they don't impose now my,my, my point, on the other hand,
is like, then, that's what?
that's one extreme, and ourextreme is to say that the body
has nothing to do.
Right, and the whole discussionabout gender is a spectrum.
Right, there is like intersex,there is transgenderism and even

(02:35:54):
like, biologically speaking too, like there are people who are
hemophilic.
Right, they have two organs,and it's not as simple, it's not
as black or white and it'scertainly not a binary.
Now, I guess the problem thatwe are facing now is that you

(02:36:14):
are taking something and this iskind of like I know that this
is kind of the big reaction ofthe the you know, especially
armenians, and then you knowchristians and, uh,
conservatives is like and thisis not a criticism, but like
this is.
What I observe is that, first ofall, there is extreme
exaggeration of the number ofkids who are going through like

(02:36:36):
gender transition, which is avery, very tiny little number.

Speaker 2 (02:36:40):
Really yeah.
If that's so, then why areevery school trying to implement
the change?

Speaker 1 (02:36:45):
They're not trying to implement anything.
You think, so I mean how arethey going to try?
Imagine this how would somebodyconvince you that you are a man
?

Speaker 2 (02:36:55):
They're not trying to convince me.
They're trying to convince mychild.

Speaker 1 (02:36:58):
How would they do it?

Speaker 2 (02:37:00):
By implementing sexual classes and inappropriate
books, which has been proven.

Speaker 1 (02:37:04):
Then that's a different conversation that
you're saying, because myproblem with going against
they're trying to attack the no,this is Not.
The what.

Speaker 2 (02:37:14):
Well, the child who's not formed yet.

Speaker 1 (02:37:16):
So you know, if that's, if that's what's really
happening well, it is.

Speaker 2 (02:37:20):
That's what I'm saying.
That's what's when you say thatthe the children is.
It's exaggerated the amount.
Every school I know in glendale, la, burbank, the districts are
all trying to implement.

Speaker 1 (02:37:31):
They started to kind of like know, get into a panic
mode because now there aremillions of people receiving
like hormonal treatment.

Speaker 2 (02:37:39):
They are.

Speaker 1 (02:37:40):
They're not.
There's absolutely no dataabout kids especially.

Speaker 2 (02:37:46):
There are so many clinics that are doing this.
There are Hormonal blockers.

Speaker 1 (02:37:50):
Do me a favor and like guess how many kids are
doing the treatment withhormonal blockers in the us
today I don't know thestatistics, but I know that I've
seen so many, so manydocumentaries on men that were
given episode yeah, I saw themyeah, one story two stories,

(02:38:11):
five stories there's more and Ican, we can do a little research
to present it.
I, I would say this is the bigproblem, because people imagine
that this is like millions ofkids, hundreds and thousands of
kids.

Speaker 2 (02:38:24):
I wouldn't say millions, but I would say
there's a good chunk of kids.

Speaker 1 (02:38:29):
No, in the US in the last years I think it's been
less than 5,000 kids in the lastcouple of years.
I'm not.
I don't have the exact numbers.

Speaker 2 (02:38:39):
Let's just say 3 000.

Speaker 1 (02:38:41):
Okay, that's not a lot now, the problem with this
is that none of these kids werepre-povers.
There were uh, I don't know howmany there were.
There were, yeah, there wereminors, but not that young.
Anyhow, I'm not going to getinto that much of this, but the
main thing about this is thelack, how ideology can overtake

(02:39:05):
a topic that is so important forthe health of many people and
turn it into something that endsup being damaging right, and
turn it into something that endsup being damaging right.
I think that the people who areagainst this like what is it
called?
What does he call it?
Transgender ideology?

(02:39:29):
I don't know what that is, butthese are the same people who
before opposed gay marriage.
These are the same people whobefore opposed gay marriage.
These are the same people whobefore opposed sexual education
at school, even though all datashowed that that reduced
significantly the possibility ofkids being groomed or abused by

(02:39:49):
others.
These are the people who arejust trying to push everything
back to some very, very oldChristian traditional way of
existing.

(02:40:20):
Now is it good or you know whodon't feel identified with none
of these discourses, and whenideology is so strong and we are
all like getting our flag, well, that's doomed to fail, because
still there are many people whoare not having their needs met.
What needs the inclusion thatwe're talking about?

Speaker 2 (02:40:45):
So let's talk about this clinically right.
So you're saying, I'm sayingthat it's damaging to validate
and accept.

Speaker 1 (02:40:52):
I would say well, what an adult, a young teenager
or a pre-power.

Speaker 2 (02:41:00):
Doesn't matter.

Speaker 1 (02:41:01):
No, for me it matters a lot.

Speaker 2 (02:41:03):
Okay, so this is the conversation.
So for me it's like well, youknow, you can be 20, you can
identify.
However, you can be 10 or youcan be 45.
10 or you can be 45.
My thing is, it's hurtful tothem because as a therapist,
right as somebody, you're notvalidating them, You're denying

(02:41:30):
them.
But what a lot of clinicianslike yourself are saying is that
you're damaging them by notaccepting them for their
feelings and their reality.
When they're adults, right theyare harmful when they're adults
, don't you think no?

Speaker 1 (02:41:40):
We are talking about kids.
This is perhaps my problem withthe most like liberal kind of
idea when they are kids, andthis is based on my uh, theory
of choice, which is like crisis,and I truly believe in that
because I see that, um like, inthe practical experience.

(02:42:03):
You see that too, you as a mom.
I'm sure you have seen that too.
Uh well, I don't want to imposethat.
Maybe I've seen it too.
Children's sexuality cannot beunderstood and judged as an
adult sexuality.
So when kids are exploring andplaying with these toys or that

(02:42:29):
toys, or wearing that dress, orthis dress or this language, or
they want to have long hair orshort hair, or play with makeup
or not.
Leave them freaking alone.
They are kids, they'reexploring, they're playing and
everything is valid, becausethey don't have such rigid

(02:42:51):
understanding of masculinity andfemininity as we adults have.
They're exploring.
Now, when you cut thatexploration same thing with
therapy, right when you cut theexploration to give them an
answer oh, that means that youare cisgender, that means that

(02:43:14):
you are transgender, that meansthat you are gay.
That means that you arecisgender.
That means that you aretransgender.
That means that you are gay.
That means that you are lesbian.
You are taking that power awayfrom them.
They should be, in my opinion,free to explore and play all the
possibilities when they arekids.
Usually, what happens is thatduring puberty or during

(02:43:34):
adolescence, we have a moreclear idea.
Who do we like?
Do we feel like a man?
Do we don't feel like a man andI think that at that age, after
you turn, you know you're ateenager.
Let's say there might becertain cases, but overall you

(02:44:02):
have a more clear understandingif this gender or this body
feels right for you or not.
Now there is one thing aboutthis that I feel like is very
important.
Nobody is comfortable withtheir body, nobody.
Sometimes, what I think this ispurely me assuming stuff is

(02:44:27):
that, again, this could be someideology, giving you the answer
for yourself.
For example, have you seenyourself in a video and you're
like, oh, this is what I looklike.
Or hear your voice?
And you're like, oh, you know,it happens to me all the time.
Like I, I see myself in apicture.
I'm like, ah, you know, I'mgetting bold and I'm getting old

(02:44:48):
and what's I'm getting for thecritique of yourself yeah, and
and so what I'm seeing?
it's not really how I feel.
Right, there is a distinctionbetween me and my body.
Let's go a little bit moreextreme yeah, there's a
fundamental talking about likeuh, we are talking about like
body and our, our relationshipto our body, body, which is not

(02:45:10):
the same thing.
Yeah, right, so let's go toeating disorders.
They are seeing, you know,anorexia.
Yeah anxiety-based disorders uh, because eating disorder is
classified.
Yeah, I've worked in the reasonsfor three years actually okay,
so you have seen a lot of casesright oh yeah, and you see you

(02:45:34):
well, most of the time, womenright, who are basically about
to die because they haven'teaten anything and they are
skinny.
They are just skin and bones.
They see in the mirror and whatdo they see?
Fat, fat.

Speaker 2 (02:45:50):
Body dysmorphia.

Speaker 1 (02:45:51):
Right, right, that's kind of like a fundamental, kind
of like thing that gives youthe idea that there is nothing
inherently owned about our body.
We built our relationship withour body.
Yes, right, so to say that ifyour body is this, you should

(02:46:51):
feel like this.
It's not it, you know, canceror whatever, or some infection
they have to go through like aprocess of like some amputation
or castration, right, many ofthem, or most of them, they have
like the phantom feelings ofthat, you know, the removed
penis, right, with transgenderpeople who have gone through the
surgery, and I'm talking about,like, truly people who are

(02:47:12):
healthy otherwise, mentallyhealthy, right?

Speaker 2 (02:47:15):
Mentally healthy that go through the surgery.
Yes because so you think you'rementally healthy if you go and
amputate yourself.

Speaker 1 (02:47:23):
I'm saying that there are transgender people who,
beyond their gender identity,they're absolutely healthy, they
are smart, they are of soundmind and they don't have any
delusions about anything so thembeing male that want to be a
woman is not a delusion to youno, and I'm telling you why.

(02:47:43):
Please, because in the facevalue would say but you have a
penis.
When doctors actually examinedthese women, uh, these
transgender people, what theyfound out is that there is
actually a part of the brainthat is bigger or smaller
depending on what gender you are.

(02:48:06):
And in transgender people,let's say I can't remember now,
I think for men it was biggerand for women it was smaller, or
something like that say I can'tremember now, I think for men
was bigger and for women wassmaller, or something like that.
A transgender person wouldactually have that size that
corresponds to the opposite sex,right?
So there is, in the same waythat they have the biological

(02:48:27):
organ, they also have a lot ofbiological other aspects in
their body, that it's from theopposite sex.
So it's not really a mental,imaginary delusional disorder.

Speaker 2 (02:48:40):
It's more clinical.

Speaker 1 (02:48:42):
It's….
Physiological it'sphysiological, Sometimes it's
just hormones, but also that'skind of like debatable, I don't
know what.
I guess you are mentioning alittle bit and what I guess you

(02:49:06):
are mentioning a little bit andperhaps I'm running the risk of
sounding kind of like you know,discriminatory here or whatever
you see that there has been likea little bit of pushing of.
If you are a little bit of likeyeah, if you're like a little
bit feminine, then you'reprobably transgender.

Speaker 2 (02:49:16):
Now you're being graceful.

Speaker 1 (02:49:18):
Yeah, I guess I am, but I think that's not.
You know, that's not.
So, when you and I talk about.

Speaker 2 (02:49:30):
You know, when you ask me, what am I seeing?
My image, my mind and my heartgoes to that, Because that is in
most of the society today.
It's a huge battle betweenwhat's right and what's wrong,
what's good and what's evil, andthat is destroying society
today.
So when we go back to old times, that's what I always go back

(02:49:51):
to, like you know, somethingClearly there was, you know.

Speaker 1 (02:49:56):
I mean, we had two world wars?

Speaker 2 (02:49:57):
Yeah, but this is war too.
What's the difference?
I mean, we're not fighting withweapons, but we're fighting
with our hearts.

Speaker 1 (02:50:03):
You know, it doesn't matter, there's war has always
been.

Speaker 2 (02:50:07):
You know it's from the 1910s to the 1920s.
It's always been present.
But this is a different type ofwar.
Now, this is you trying toinclude me in your mindset, you
trying to push me.
It's kind of like communism,marxism.
It's communism in a way that'swhat I mean with ideology Make
me believe in your systembecause that's going to make

(02:50:27):
your life easier, but then I'mgoing to be miserable because
that goes against my values andmorals.

Speaker 1 (02:50:32):
And I think that that's the difference that I
guess we kind of like we left ita little bit ago is do I need
to eliminate your truth for mytruth to exist?

Speaker 2 (02:50:43):
And vice versa.
Right and vice versa, and therewe are stuck as a society.

Speaker 1 (02:50:48):
But I think that that's the place where you see
most of the reactivity, um, andI see, I think that that's the
place where we as mental healthprofessionals can actually
especially researchers, right,can actually make a huge impact.
You know, you don't need to um,you don't, and I and I and I

(02:51:14):
get it.
You know, like we study and welearn that we have to be like
social justice warriors and allof that wonderful things.
Nothing against that.
But you, as a therapist, shouldbe able to tolerate any kind of
discourse, right, if I'm.

(02:51:36):
I, during the during the time ofwar between Armenia and
Azerbaijan, right, I was workingwith a Turkish client, right,
and I gave him all my contentionand all my empathy and I've
never once, like kind of feltnot that I'm a superhuman, right
, I acknowledge that thatcreated some feelings for me and

(02:51:57):
we actually talked about it.
Right, I said like, hey, howdoes it feel to have an Armenian
therapist?
He's like well, I know that ourcountries and our cultures, but
can you, as a therapist,tolerate a Trump supporter and
tolerate a Kamala Harrissupporter?

(02:52:17):
Tolerate talking to a blackperson and the white person an
Asian person?
Can you tolerate that somebodyis going to come and say
something that you fundamentallyare against right.

Speaker 2 (02:52:30):
As a person, as a human being.

Speaker 1 (02:52:32):
As a therapist, look, I feel like, yeah, well, I'm
going to go for the human beingpiece when you're a human being.

Speaker 2 (02:52:35):
A therapist, look, and that's what I feel like,
yeah, well, I'm gonna go for thehuman being piece.
When you're a human being, Ithink lots of things.
Many of these perceptions canbe tolerated if yours is as well
, yeah, uh.
But as a clinician it'sdifferent, because now you are
the provider and your job is toprovide what's ever best for
your client, and sometimesspeaking the truth for your

(02:52:57):
client is doing good for them,and I think many clinicians….

Speaker 1 (02:53:01):
I don't think the truth is yours to speak.
That's my problem, right, and Iget what you're saying and I
totally agree with you.
I hate and this is a strongword, but I really hate because
it's truly damaging thetherapists who are just like
inflating the ego of the client.
The client comes and says, likemy partner was an asshole to me
.
There's not a small explorationof what oh, he's a piece of

(02:53:26):
shit, right?

Speaker 2 (02:53:27):
No, no, no, those things are not.
No, that's a little silly, no,that's very biased.

Speaker 1 (02:53:32):
Even like I think like this is happening, Well
then that's very biased.
But even like I think like thisis happening, Well then that's
probably true, right, yeah, yeah, I think that's a very naive
and stupid way of like justmaking your client feel good
about themselves.
That's not going to go a longway.

Speaker 2 (02:53:46):
But that's the same thing though.
Like, I feel like and we'regoing to go back to this
transgenderism, transgenderismlike they're.
You know, when you have acouple that come, or a client
comes and says my husband's thisand this, and you immediately
resort to saving your client'sfeelings of oh my god, what a
jerk, what an asshole, as wewere just talking about.
I think that you're alsoimposing that on a client who is

(02:54:10):
there is a.

Speaker 1 (02:54:10):
There's a, there's a.
A fundamental difference.
There is a fundamentaldifference.
There is a difference, but also, there is like something to be
said about what is that we aredoing in the therapy room.
Why is this transgender personseeking for therapy?

Speaker 2 (02:54:31):
You have to explore that right.
You're not supposed to shutthem down, but to validate
certain type of delusion.
Is denying them versusaccepting them?
For?

Speaker 1 (02:54:42):
who they are.
Well, again, you areclassifying it as a delusion,
right, and I don't agree withthat.

Speaker 2 (02:54:49):
You mean to tell me every single transgender has
that piece of the brain.
Transgender has that piece ofthe brain.

Speaker 1 (02:54:55):
I don't even that's just a small research.
You know, I have met people whojust like a lot of hormones.
Sometimes it's, sometimes trulyit's a cause of, you know,
trauma.

Speaker 2 (02:55:10):
Absolutely, and you want to help that person, right.

Speaker 1 (02:55:14):
But it's different, Like when I was.
I remember cases of transgenderpeople who got the surgery and
had a really bad breakdownbecause they were kind of
psychotic right, and then thereare other people.

Speaker 2 (02:55:25):
Nobody talks about that.

Speaker 1 (02:55:26):
But that's a very, very small percentage.

Speaker 2 (02:55:28):
But nobody talks about that.

Speaker 1 (02:55:29):
Yeah, I mean, but again.

Speaker 2 (02:55:31):
See, we're always going for the.
It's a small percentage?

Speaker 1 (02:55:34):
Yeah, because it's important, because if we have
100 cases of hormonal blockersor you know surgeries and you
have 99 that feel better afterthat and you have one that
didn't, it's important tomention it and that's why it's
important to have an expert todetermine if this person is

(02:55:57):
really going to handle thatbecause your body is changing,
it's a big deal.
But to say like you shouldn'tbecause the one person you know
you are now damaging other 99people who may benefit.
And statistically it's thatsmall.
The percentage of people whoregret it, it's very small.

Speaker 2 (02:56:19):
I would have to disagree Bites.
Let me say this I think thatit's also very important as a
clinician to explore thetransition, oh of course, but
there are so many of them thatdon't do that Well that's my
problem with psychology in.

Speaker 1 (02:56:32):
You know you can't do that in this era, like
psychology is, um, I?
It has become ideological, youknow, and I I am open to talk
about politics and it is apolitical act to do therapy, but
it has become ideologicalbecause other we come from times
to do like conversion therapy,which is an absolute crap, like

(02:56:52):
you know, and people end upkilling themselves because they
somebody tried to say no, no, no, you're not gay, I'm going to
turn you into a normal humanbeing.
To now, perhaps I believe thatthis is progress, this is
healthy.
So I'm going to.
For example, if you're going todeconstruct and deconstruction

(02:57:15):
is a big word, now everybody isusing deconstruction If you're
going to deconstruct a narrativethat the person brings about,
let's say, monogamicrelationships, right, good, I
agree, you have to deconstruct.
You have to know why is amonogamic relationship so

(02:57:36):
important for a person, ifthat's the problematic that
they're bringing right.
If, the same way, a transgenderperson comes and they want to
talk about their job, I'm notgoing to talk about their
transgender identity.
They are worried about theirjob, of course.

Speaker 2 (02:57:49):
Yeah, Don't bring that up if it's not needed.
That's not the point.

Speaker 1 (02:57:52):
And so the same way, like a person comes and is gay,
for a while people assume thatit's coming because he's gay and
we need to talk about him beinggay.
No, he's a human being and hehas, like, tons of other issues
that he wants to talk about.
Right, yeah.
But so when we aredeconstructing what has been
normative for a while let's saydominant discourse right, has

(02:58:14):
been normative for a while let'ssay dominant discourse, right.
Like Gramsci or Foucault, youknow these more postmodern
thinkers would say well, thereis this dominant discourse that
is creating a problem.
You know, it's aproblem-saturated narrative in
narrative therapy.
So we're going to deconstructthat.
Absolutely Great.

(02:58:35):
You have to explore that.
My problem with that is that nowyou are picking and choosing
what you deconstruct or not.
So the same person says I thinkI want to have an open
relationship with my partner.
Oh, okay, great.
You know, why don't youdeconstruct that?
Why do you assume that that'snot a dominant discourse?

(02:58:57):
Right?
Because your way of seeing itcorresponds to certain ideology,
which I may agree or not, itdoesn't really matter, but your
job is to.
If you are a postmoderntherapist, you know a narrative
therapist.
You have to deconstruct thattoo?

Speaker 2 (02:59:18):
Is that what you do in your?

Speaker 1 (02:59:19):
practice.
No, I do more psychoanalysis inmy practice.
Yeah, you mentioned thatBecause for me, it really
matters the connection, itreally matters how the person
relates to its context, how theperson relates to its context.

(02:59:41):
And if I, if I go the route ofeverything, is because of this
kind of system or this kind ofsystem.
Yeah, I'm gonna assume that Ialready know the cause of
everything and I'm gonna assumea bunch of stuff.
If I don't take the contextinto consideration.
I'm gonna fall into kind oflike some cbt stuff that I don't
really like, which is I'm goingto fall into kind of like some
CBT stuff that I don't reallylike which ends up being well,
if you think different, you'regoing to act different.

Speaker 2 (03:00:00):
Right, you feel different and act different.

Speaker 1 (03:00:01):
Yeah absolutely so.
For me, the context isimportant, the narrative is
important, the story isimportant, and that shapes the
unconscious of a person, and theunconscious drives the person.

Speaker 2 (03:00:14):
Meaning you go back to childhood as well.

Speaker 1 (03:00:17):
Yes, but opposed to what American psychoanalysis or
psychodynamics do, I don't saylike, well, let's talk about
your mom, right?
I usually talk about thepresent.
Why?
Because the unconscious is notsome hidden, you know thing that
we have to dig and find.
The unconscious is very present.

Speaker 2 (03:00:38):
You think so?

Speaker 1 (03:00:39):
Yeah, you just have to listen to it.

Speaker 2 (03:00:41):
And how do you get your client to listen to the
unconscious?

Speaker 1 (03:00:44):
My job is to listen to it.

Speaker 2 (03:00:46):
Your job.

Speaker 1 (03:00:47):
I bring them the question.
They use it.
It's in the language all thetime.

Speaker 2 (03:00:52):
True, the behaviors as well, of course, the
behaviors as well.
I in the language all the time.
True the behaviors as well ofcourse, the behaviors as well.

Speaker 1 (03:00:57):
I think that's more powerful, but I like more
working with the language.
And I will tell you why.
Because, yes, even if I see abehavior, I don't want to assume
that that behavior meanssomething, because I have, you
know, let's say they have anaddiction.

Speaker 2 (03:01:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:01:15):
What would you say an addiction is, because this is
what we studied everywhere.

Speaker 2 (03:01:19):
Well, it's I mean, depending on what it is, but
it's a way of coping Unhealthycoping mechanism.
Unhealthy coping mechanismthrough something that has
happened, or maybe it's not evenhappening.
It could be a belief system,something that was told, that
your subconscious mind picked up.
Maybe it was a learned behavior.
You know, addiction can be somany things.

(03:01:40):
It's not only like a traumaresponse or coping Right, right
Good.

Speaker 1 (03:01:45):
So I agree with you, and for me that's important Well
if you treat only that.

Speaker 2 (03:01:52):
I think that that's a very short way of treating
somebody who struggles with it.

Speaker 1 (03:01:57):
There is absolutely no way of treating addiction by
just focusing on the addiction.

Speaker 2 (03:02:02):
Yeah, no, there's something.
It's just like anger.

Speaker 1 (03:02:05):
Like anger right Now.
My question is there's thatcompulsive character in these
behaviors?
There's, let's call it it.
There's language in thisbehavior and we have to find it
If I determine that this personhas an unhealthy coping
mechanism, like any other personaddicted to anything else then

(03:02:28):
what I'm going to do is give youhomework to find a healthier
coping mechanism.

Speaker 2 (03:02:33):
And assign you up in an AA program.

Speaker 1 (03:02:35):
Right, right and even worse.
I'm going to give you somepeople are going to like this.
I'm going to give youindications to start a different
substance.
Yeah, To deal your substanceuse Insane.

Speaker 2 (03:02:49):
So my point, like go become more religious Right,
which falls them into thecategory of obsessive religious,
you know, like seeking Becausethey find whatever answers
they're looking for.

Speaker 1 (03:03:10):
What is the language behind this addiction?
You usually find is there is aportion of that that corresponds
to certain pleasure seeking,right Like there is okay that we
get it.
But interestingly, there's twomore things that come up with
that One is guilt and shame, ofcourse.

(03:03:32):
Right after that, of course, itcould be like substance use,
sex yeah, I mean it's stimuliuse.

Speaker 2 (03:03:37):
I mean, why do people use stimuli to get rid of all
that and to feel right, to feelnot so shameful and guiltful
right?

Speaker 1 (03:03:45):
and, paradoxically, that's what they end up feeling.
Right, shame and guilt, right.
And the other piece is there isa moment, what, what addiction
comes, what kind of thing comesto your mind Gambling.
Let's just say there is a pointthat you're enjoying it.
There is a point where you'rehaving a really, really bad time

(03:04:09):
.
You are not enjoying it anymore.
You are losing the money forrent and your car payment.
You are feeling like crapbecause you see yourself doing
this and you keep going.

Speaker 2 (03:04:21):
Because there's that unrealistic hope.

Speaker 1 (03:04:25):
That's part of it.
But for me, that hope is notonly to winning.
You know, there is somethinghappening in that that is is
pushing you beyond pleasure toum, to keep going when it's
painful.
For me, that excessive part iswhat I like to analyze more,

(03:04:49):
because that's where thesingularity of each person, each
, you know, comes.

Speaker 2 (03:04:54):
Have you ever thought of addiction?
Can also be subconsciously notwanting to live slow suicide
like a death drive slow suicidelike eating disorders.
Sure, it's a very painfulsuicide, and I've I've had
patients who said this to me I'mweak, I don't have the strength
to kill myself, so I'm justjust going to let my eating

(03:05:15):
disorder kill me.
And they have succeeded.

Speaker 1 (03:05:18):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I can see thathappening very, very easily,
because what you are basicallydoing is falling into some level
of….
Self-disruption right yeah it'sa cycle of, but interestingly,
in the same way, I have seenpeople doing that to feel alive.

Speaker 2 (03:05:45):
To stay alive.

Speaker 1 (03:05:47):
Yeah.
To feel alive, to feel aliveand to stay alive, right.
Wow, what you were sayingbefore, like that desperate need
to feel something.

Speaker 2 (03:05:55):
To feel alive, yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:05:57):
So this is.
You know, we're just talking topeople and we came up with so
many different things that couldhappen when somebody is
presenting a symptom like anaddiction.
How could you possibly talkabout one universal truth and
treat equally every singleperson who is dealing with

(03:06:17):
addiction?

Speaker 2 (03:06:18):
You think they're treated equally?

Speaker 1 (03:06:20):
I think this is like what 12 Steps programs do.

Speaker 2 (03:06:25):
Are you a believer of those programs?

Speaker 1 (03:06:27):
I know people who have found help there and it
helped and I have people whofound it really damaging to them
, hurtful.
But I say that if there wasn'ta need, those programs would.

Speaker 2 (03:06:43):
Yeah, I mean, they do their thing.
They have a community there,which is not a minor thing you
know, yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:06:51):
Clinically speaking, I find it completely opposite to
what I believe it is yeah.
Right, but I cannot reject theexperience of some clients who
say it saved my life.

Speaker 2 (03:07:03):
Yeah, I've had clients who said that too.
Yeah, In the private practicethat I was working with there is
a man who alcohol anonymousprograms, you know saved his
life is now a sponsor and hasbeen sober for over 11 years it
gives them some.
It does meaning, it does and ifthat's going to help, let it be
.
And if, if, if a gamblingaddiction you from that, you

(03:07:25):
turn into a shopaholic, you know, I'll take that versus
sometimes it's about harmreduction it is harm yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:07:33):
And I think that one of these things that we should
be more mindful of is, in thesame way that I don't like
imposing my preconceived notionsor, you know, books that I read
and courses that I did onsomebody, my idea of healing
also should shape when eachperson's possibilities and needs

(03:07:58):
Some people come from literallybeing about to hang themselves
right, and this is more so formen.
If I found, after some work,that this person found some
motivation to do certain workduring the day, if I found that

(03:08:21):
he's able to connect with someother person that he, you know,
he's been a couple of weeks thathe hasn't, you know, thought
about, thought about.
I'm not wanting this person tobe happy and excited about
everything because probably thelevel of pain that he has
experienced it's beyond mycomprehension.

(03:08:41):
Yeah Right, so I, my hopes forhim are my hopes.
I have to accept that thatperson is going to heal as much
as they are able to heal.

Speaker 2 (03:08:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:08:52):
And I will do my best in, you know, be there and push
them a little bit more, youknow.
But I think it's important tounderstand our limitations.
We are therapists.
We are not angels.
We are not like saviors ofanybody.

Speaker 2 (03:09:08):
Most of the people see us once a week, even though
it might feel really good to youknow, have that kind of
validation as any human.

Speaker 1 (03:09:15):
But yeah, it's scary.

Speaker 2 (03:09:16):
It is, and I think there's a lot of.
And I was just at an event anda younger girl she's like you
know, I see your Instagram, Isaw your videos.
What do you recommend?
What schools do you recommend?
And I said, well, why do youwant to be a therapist?
And she said because I lovehelping people.
And I said some things.

(03:09:40):
I kind of shook her up.
I said well, what if there'ssomebody you can't help?
What's going to happen to you?

Speaker 1 (03:09:42):
Because this field does come with failures too.
You're not always going to besuccessful.
My friends laugh at me all thetime, but for me that's
castration right.
That's when you notice thatyou're not omnipotent.

Speaker 2 (03:09:53):
You're not.
You know you're just aterrorist, yeah, and are not,
you know, just a therapist?
Yeah, and sometimes gettinginto this field can make you
feel like that.
It is very egocentric.
I feel like some people arevery ego-driven, like oh, I'm
going to sit on that chair andyou know, look all intelligent
with my coffee and heal whereit's like no, that's not how it
works.
I mean, I've lost clients whenI was doing my practicum hours

(03:10:15):
because I was doing it in amental health hospital in
reasons yeah, that happens.
I've had a 70-something-year-oldwoman who was under literally
80 pounds that just had a heartattack in a group class.
It was like 25 of us it wasmyself leading the group and 25
patients and she just had aheart attack and died.
And so you see things like that, you know, and it's like when

(03:10:37):
people say I want to help, Ithink it's your duty to be like,
you know, you're not alwaysgoing to save a person, even
though that's what you want.
It's inside your heart, but youhave to be realistic about it.

Speaker 1 (03:10:50):
To your point.
You know I had thisconversation, I was in this
conference recently.
Um, and this uh lady she's apsychologist um asked me like oh
, you know I, I read in yourprofile that you like
psychoanalysis.
I'm like, well, it's kind oflike 99 of what I studied, right

(03:11:10):
, so I do like psychoanalysis.
She's like, you know, I don'tknow how you do and how do you
work with trauma, with that?
I'm like, well, like the restof the world outside of LA, you
know we don't need to do anyspecific technique.
You know, although there aresome good techniques, you can
work absolutely work with traumathrough the psychonazis.

(03:11:32):
She's like yeah, but that's toolong.
You know, when a person comesin, you have to just, like, you
know, give them some tools andthen they're on the way.
That's how I want to do things.

Speaker 2 (03:11:43):
It's not what works for everybody.
It's not going to work.

Speaker 1 (03:11:47):
It doesn't work for anybody.
Yeah, yeah, and she was juststarting.
She was just starting and Isaid well, good luck with that.
Yeah, she's like.
What do you mean?
I said like, have you everchanged like that?
Have you ever changed your mindlike that?

Speaker 2 (03:12:04):
No, it's years and years.
Even on yourself, it takesyears and years.
That's what I mean, yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:12:09):
Yeah, I mean.
And how painful is to acceptthat.

Speaker 2 (03:12:12):
Nasty parts of yourself.
Yeah, yeah, it is verydifficult for anyone.

Speaker 1 (03:12:17):
Yeah, I need to change my way of thinking.
I don't like this.
That means that I have beenthinking, like you know, in this
way for so many years.

Speaker 2 (03:12:25):
And learn that type of thinking from this way.
Yeah, a lot of it isneuromurons too.
We pick up.
What advice do you give men?
Since we were on the topic ofmental health and men, yeah,
what's like a good clinicaladvice before we end seek for
help.

Speaker 1 (03:12:43):
Yeah, seek for help talk.
Um, I would say that I neverpush anybody to talk.
We just just because I don'tknow what their environment and
maybe I'm pushing them to talkin the worst environment ever
and you know that's not good butusually they have a sense how

(03:13:07):
safe or how not safe is aroundthem.
So if, if there is somethingimportant is, talk wherever you
are listened to.

Speaker 2 (03:13:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:13:20):
Right, wherever somebody can hear you, then you
can talk yeah, um, why?
Because I think that, no matterhow much we can make all these
mental gymnastics of processingstuff inside us, there is
something almost magical thathappens when we share it and

(03:13:40):
somebody says oh, I hear you,right, like that's simple.
Yeah, and maybe not, maybe forsure.
I don't have the wisdom to fixanybody's problem, but usually
they have yes, and it's more ofconnecting to that right.

Speaker 2 (03:14:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:14:02):
Connecting to things that they already knew and it
was really hard to accept thatthey knew that.
Yeah, connecting to questionsthat they had, but it's very
hard to ask themselves.
Other than that, I don't feeladequate to advice.

Speaker 2 (03:14:17):
Yeah, I think that was beautiful, Tigran.
Thank you so much for today.
I took so much of your time,but you're definitely a
wonderful you're such awonderful asset and I think that
people definitely do need toknow about you.
You're very smart and you're sodriven and definitely are going
to make an amazing impact inany society you choose to work

(03:14:40):
with, so that's a greatcompliment.
Yes, I appreciate, because youknow there's, first of all,
there's not a lot of men in thisfield no let me go back.
Armenian men in this field andwhen I was browsing I was like
wow, like this is phenomenal.
So I'm very happy to see thatthere's more and more.

Speaker 1 (03:14:59):
That's good.

Speaker 2 (03:15:00):
I hope so I hope so, because it's such a uh we need
it noble uh, noble career.
It's not even a job, it's anoble career to possess.
It takes a long time.
It takes years of education,and you and I know how hard that
is.
It took a while.
For me too.
It's hard, especially when youhave kids and family and life

(03:15:23):
struggles.
So you're definitelyappreciated and valued and.
I thank you for being heretoday.

Speaker 1 (03:15:28):
Yeah, Thank you.
No, this was my pleasure, andyou know truly, also to mention
that, not to sound cheesy oranything but.

Speaker 2 (03:15:37):
I love how you have to say that, yeah, yeah, as a
male, as a male, as a male, as amale, as a male, as a male, as
a male, as a male.

Speaker 1 (03:15:41):
And then this is my Freudian.
You know, Slip.
It's not a slip, but there ischeesy but that's the issue that
we're trying to fix right, yeah, this is my macho coming up and
I don't want to be cheesy, buttrue, no, because you hear this

(03:16:01):
and it sounds fake at times.
Right, but how great and howamazing is to be able to be part
of other's stories, right.

Speaker 2 (03:16:14):
Privilege it is.

Speaker 1 (03:16:15):
That's such a huge privilege and sometimes,
especially when you're a littleemotional, because sometimes you
really feel how much you matter, right, like not you as a
person, but that space that youcreate with the person, right,

(03:16:36):
yeah, and I'm just supergrateful to my clients, to my
career, and for this too, yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:16:45):
And I think it takes such a courageous man to express
it does.
Gratefulness is not expressedmuch, and it's something that
really matters.
I'm grateful for you, so thankyou.

Speaker 1 (03:16:57):
Thank you for being here.
Thank you so much.
This was wonderful.

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Tigran Vartanyan | Masculinity, Men's Mental Health, Gender Norms | The Edit Alaverdyan Podcast #37

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Tigran Vartanyan | Masculinity, Men's Mental Health, Gender Norms | The Edit Alaverdyan Podcast #37