July 4, 2023 • 42 mins
This week, we are talking all about grading in a mastery-based learning classroom. We'll share our learning as well as guiding principles to keep in mind as you consider grading practices in your mastery-based structured classroom.
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Featured Content
**For detailed show notes, please visit our website at https://edugals.com/66**
- There is no one right answer... flexibility and knowing your students is key!
- Modern Classrooms Project
- Grades will depend on your style, curriculum, goals, colleagues, reporting guidelines
- Progress reports - mastery can be helpful for this
- Still need pacing and structure; target dates are needed
- What are we including for grades?
- Use soft zeroes where students have not yet mastered the skill
- Include other evaluations in your gradebook as well, not just mastery checks
- Summative Tests
- Set goal date, all students write on the same day
- Set a window (3 days) and students can choose which day to write on
- What do you do with grading categories? This is tricky!
- Only grade what has been specifically taught
- Backwards design - start with the mastery check, and work backwards to create your supporting/learning materials
- Ask your students for feedback
- Mid-unit and end of unit are good times
- Use Google forms
- Add in metacognition - reflection questions in mastery checks
- Grading Principles:
- Be intentional
- Focus on growth and revision
- Focus on feedback
- Ungrading - Jesse Stommel: @Jessifer on Twitter
- Book: Ungrading: Why Rating Students Undermines Learning and What To Do Instead by Susan D. Blum
- Tracking:
- Google Sheets (Auto-Updating Tracker and Grid System Tracker)
- Display in classroom for collaboration (consider using code names)
- No grades!
- Rubrics:
- Standards-Based Grading (4, 3, 2, 1 levels OR mastered, getting there, not yet)
- Single Point Rubrics
- Add to your mastery checks
- Use "I can..." statements
- Make sure the language is clear and easy for students to understand
- Leverage tech - Google Docs/Slides with Mote/Screencastify
Connect with EduGals:
- Twitter @EduGals
- Rachel @dr_r_johnson
- Katie @KatieAttwell
- EduGals Website
- Support the show
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rachel (00:25):
Welcome to the Edge U Gals podcast.
We are your co-host RachelJohnson
Katie (00:30):
and Katie Atwell.
We are here to bring you tipsand tricks to help you integrate
technology into your classroom.
Rachel (00:39):
In this episode, we are continuing our discussion about
mastery based learning, andspecifically looking at how do
you grade in a mastery basedstructure in your classroom.
Katie (00:50):
We are going to share some of the learning that we
have done on this topic and someguiding principles to keep in
mind as you are.
Exploring the idea of grading ina mastery based classroom.
Let's get
Rachel (01:01):
started.
This week, Katie and I arecontinuing our discussion around
mastery based structures andlearning in the classroom, and,
you know, we, we touched alittle bit about this.
Last episode on grading in amastery based classroom.
(01:23):
So this is where we kind ofwanna focus today, is how do you
grade with mastery basedlearning?
Katie (01:30):
Yes.
And the funny part, or maybe notso funny, I don't know, is.
When I went back and I've beendoing some reading and some
research and looking into thisand trying to learn more, I've
realized there is no answer.
So the logical person in me isnow screaming, what am I doing?
(01:51):
But it, it really comes down toflexibility in finding what
works for you and your students.
That's what I've learned this
Rachel (01:57):
week.
Yeah.
It's funny because.
Katie told me that when we firstjumped onto this Google meet
this morning before we startedrecording, and you know, I, I, I
had that sense last week.
I, I've had that sense for awhile in terms of grading and
mastery based structures.
Like there really is no clearcut answer.
And so it was, it was prettyfunny.
(02:18):
I know.
Katie (02:19):
So I've been working through the Modern Classrooms
project and, and I do give some,I guess examples or some
teachers approaches to grading.
And it's funny cuz I read someof them and I'm like, quizzes
and tests, no, this is not me.
And, and then you have to likego through and kind of figure
out, you know, what is yourstyle, what is your curriculum
(02:39):
like, and what are your goalsand, and how can you make it fit
with the traditional gradingsystem while still.
Encouraging student learning andagency.
I think
Rachel (02:52):
it really is gonna depend on what curriculum area
you're in, who you work with,and what sort of structures you
already have in place.
Because I think that's, that'sgonna be where everybody's
starting places.
Katie (03:05):
And so to give you an idea, here in Ontario, we have.
You know, different reportingperiods that we have to be
accountable for.
So we do a quick check-in in thefifth week of classes just to
make students aware of, youknow, if they're struggling or
perhaps not being as successful.
It's kind of a way to letparents and students know, Hey,
(03:27):
we need to get on track here.
We also have midterms and thenwe have 15th weeks for students
who are in danger of perhaps notgetting the credit.
And then we have finals.
So we have four reportingperiods where we are expected to
have, you know, some idea as toprogress, particularly at the
beginning where it's kind oftough.
(03:47):
Uh, cuz you haven't done asmuch, but I.
So the idea is showing thatprogress throughout and
reporting on that.
So it can become tricky withmastery based is what I've
discovered.
Rachel (03:57):
I almost think that though, that that's a good
structure for us to talk about.
So why don't we talk about thatfirst sort of chunk of.
Learning in the classroom thefirst sort of five weeks of, of
a semester, because in thosefirst five weeks you are
learning about your students,you're getting to know them, and
those fifth week reports that wedo don't require us to report a
(04:21):
mark.
It's reporting on the progressof the students.
So I think.
That's a good place to talkabout and then we can talk about
coming up with grades afterwardsfor that midterm, the 15th week
and the final reports.
Katie (04:34):
Yes, and me as a teacher, I always struggle with fifth
weeks because we spend, so, Ispend so much time almost doing
diagnostics.
Like in order for me toeffectively teach my students,
especially in English as anadditional language, I have to
know where they're at.
And so in order to do that, youknow, I have to spend time
diagnosing their skills,figuring out where they're at,
(04:57):
seeing their individualstrengths, and then areas where
they still kind of need thatextra support before I can
really move forward.
So to be honest, for me, fifthweeks are tough because I might
have.
One, like one assignment that isput in there.
Um, but it's not usually like amajor assignment
Rachel (05:16):
necessarily.
I've actually had very similarexperiences in science.
You know, e ESL is definitelynot an outlier when those fifth
week progress reports comearound.
Pretty much in any course I'veever taught, there's only ever
maybe one evaluation, maybe twoat the most.
And in science, you know, it's alot more traditional.
So there might be a quiz andmaybe a unit test, but usually
(05:40):
you haven't even finished a fullunit of study by the fifth week.
Or if you have, you've had thetest, but you haven't marked it
yet.
Katie (05:48):
That's, that's good to know because like I don't often
know what other people are doingand how many things they have,
so I tend to be self-consciousof the fact that I really
despise fifth weeks cuz I feellike I haven't done enough
Rachel (06:01):
Now.
I do feel like, okay, if, if youhave a mastery based grading
sort of practice set up in yourclassroom and you're doing it
lesson by lesson, so verysimilar to.
What the Modern ClassroomsProject sets out in terms of
their framework.
Then I feel like by fifth weekyou would have a good chunk of
(06:22):
lessons that the students shouldhave mastered by that point when
that progress is coming out.
So I almost feel like it wouldbe, Easier to be able to do
those progress reports withsomething like this framework in
place than the traditional waythat we do it right now.
Now
Katie (06:39):
follow up question to that.
So when you do mastery basedand, and this is what I'm still
kind of wrestling with in mymind, do you have like almost
like a schedule as to when theyshould achieve certain checks?
Like, is that like checks andbalances?
Like, by this time you shouldhave accomplished this?
Rachel (06:57):
Yeah, I think you need to have some sort of pacing
still in there.
You can't be completely fullyself-paced, you know, maybe you
can in some courses, but the wayI'm, I'm sort of picturing what
it would look like in myclassroom.
It wouldn't be fully like, Justfinish it whenever you want to.
You, you have to have a pace inthere.
(07:17):
Otherwise it's a
Katie (07:18):
disaster and trying to get these kids to move forward,
right?
So there still has to bestructure.
So you're right, like maybe thefirst two weeks they're kind of
getting used to this newstructure of mastery based and
guiding them through it more.
But then, you know, they haveanother three weeks where they
should be able to progressthrough, do some mastery checks,
but then the follow up, what arewe including for Marks?
Rachel (07:40):
Yeah.
So that's where it gets tricky.
Mm-hmm.
Katie (07:42):
And that's what I've discovered.
Rachel (07:46):
Yes.
And so one of the, um, Facebookgroups that are really, really
great is the Modern ClassroomsProject Facebook group.
Like they have so many.
Good discussions in there onthis topic, and I've, I've read
them all.
It's, it's insane how much thistopic really comes up and, and
people talk about, but you know,you there, there's the question
(08:08):
around what do you definemastery as, first off, like what
grade does that get and then howdo you put that into your grade
book?
Now a very sort of traditionalway that you could do it is
every lesson, you know, you putin your grade book as the
mastery check, and then the markthat you put in is either, I
(08:29):
don't, well, okay, we need to goback to what you define mastery
as.
But say you say it's, it has tobe a hundred percent just to
make the the example easier.
Then the grade you would put infor mastering that lesson would
be like a 10 outta 10.
And if they haven't mastered ityet, then it's a zero and it's a
soft zero until they master thatskill.
(08:50):
But then when you get to thatprogress report time, if they've
mastered, say, seven out of.
10 of the lessons that theyshould have mastered and their
grade is 70%.
Okay.
I could see
Katie (09:00):
that.
Now I've read where someteachers don't actually mark,
like for grades, the masterychecks, and so then I guess
there's in assignment or someother work that they then take
those skills they've masteredand demonstrated.
Yeah, I know
Rachel (09:17):
a lot of teachers out there will.
Like the mastery checks are notthe only thing that goes into
your grade, and I agree itshouldn't be the only thing that
goes into your grade book.
There should be other pieces toit.
So you've got a whole choice interms of what are the other
pieces that go in there.
Like for science, maybe it's.
(09:39):
A lab report of some sort or aproject, or a lot of teachers
will still do a summative unittest at the end, and maybe
that's the grade that goes in.
So from there, you could add inthe mastery check marks if you
wanted to, or if you didn't wantto and only wanted to count
those summative pieces, then youcould do that as well.
Katie (09:59):
And now here's a follow up question to that.
So I know so many questions.
Can you tell I'm still on thislearning journey?
So for science, for example, ifyou're gonna have like a
summative test, is that kind ofyour goal date for your
students?
Like are they all writing on thesame day as a goal, or can they
(10:21):
take that staggered based on howprepared they are?
Rachel (10:24):
I've seen it a few ways.
So it could be a set goal dateand that's when the unit's done.
We need to move on kind of dealso that they're all writing on
the same day.
I've also seen it set up whereit's a window of a few days, so
maybe a three day window andthey can write their summative
evaluation in one of those threedays, you know, depending on
(10:46):
their comfort level and their,their level of readiness.
So you could do that as well.
Katie (10:51):
Okay.
Good to know.
Good to know.
Let me think of my other millionquestions.
Rachel (10:55):
I certainly don't have all the answers.
I'm still No.
Like this is still a learningjourney for me too, and I've
only really, I.
Sort of gotten a really goodgrasp of what mastery based
learning can be and could looklike in a classroom.
I haven't done it with a classmyself, and so, you know, the,
these are all ways that I thinkI would put it into place, but I
(11:17):
don't know how well they wouldwork.
That makes sense.
Yeah.
And I think we also have theother added layer in Ontario of.
Grading categories, and I knowevery school board does it
slightly differently, but in ourschool board, we actually have
to show how each of the marks isrelated to each of the different
(11:37):
categories.
So we have knowledge andunderstanding.
We have thinking, inquiry,application, and communication.
And so then that adds a layer ofcomplexity, like where do you
put the mastery checks?
Yeah.
What category do they go under?
Right.
Katie (11:51):
But one thing I kind of liked, and I can't remember
where I read this or who said itwas, you know, wherever you end
up, whatever you end up marking.
Make sure it was something thatwas explicitly taught within
those mastery checks.
So for example, if you haven'texplicitly taught specific
grammar concepts, you shouldn'tthen be marking for those on
(12:13):
your rubric.
You can't mark down forsomething that you have not
explicitly taught.
Rachel (12:17):
And I think that actually comes back to how do
you design these lessons in thefirst place, and you know, You
hear this over and over again,right?
But backwards design is soimportant here.
You start with your masterycheck.
You start with going, okay, whatis my learning goal?
What do I expect my students toget out of this lesson?
And how do I figure out thatthey've mastered that particular
(12:42):
learning goal?
And you design your masterycheck based on that.
And then from there you gobackwards.
Create your instructional video,create your practice, create
whatever else is going with thatin order to help students get to
that point where they candemonstrate the mastery.
No,
Katie (12:58):
definitely.
That makes so much sense.
My wheels are turning.
Rachel (13:02):
Yeah.
Well it's, it, it's commonsense, right.
You know, and it's what theyteach us in teachers college
over and over again that youshould be backwards designing.
This is like really trulybackwards designing, though.
I don't know how many of usreally.
On the day to day as we'replanning our lessons and doing
(13:22):
our, our chalk and talk orwhatever, you know, are we
really backwards designing?
I think
Katie (13:28):
some do.
Yeah.
I don't know.
And, and the other hard thingfor me is mastery.
For mastery based.
I am.
The kind of teacher who willtake a lesson, realize what they
still need work on andcompletely revamp my future
lessons, if that makes sense.
So Mastery base scares me cuz Ialmost have to anticipate ahead
of time what all of theindividual needs will be so that
(13:50):
I can be prepared to help themflex and change and get.
More support based on perhapswhat I didn't expect.
But I think that comes down tofeedback.
And that can be, you know, aquick little like Screencast
when saying, Hey, I noticedthis.
Let's talk about this quickly.
Here's a YouTube video.
Cuz I may not have time toexplain all of the lessons in
that first year.
(14:11):
But then from there I cancontinue to build resources and
my own voice and, and whatnotwhere I'm included in it, to
then help them kind of go backand build those different
Rachel (14:23):
areas.
I would definitely be askingstudents for feedback too,
throughout the, the unit,throughout the entire course.
So I would say midway throughunit's, a good time to.
Get them to fill out a feedbackform.
If you wanna leave it anonymous,you can.
Super easy to set up with GoogleForms, right?
Yeah.
And then I would also be askingfor that feedback at the end of
(14:44):
a unit as well.
Yeah,
Katie (14:46):
no, definitely it's, I'm not doing this for me.
I'm doing this for them.
So it's important that I knowhow they are doing and what they
feel I can improve upon.
I also
Rachel (14:54):
really love getting students to think about their
thinking and their learning.
So that's kind of a, a big sortof thing that I.
I like incorporating intovarious different aspects in my
classroom.
The metacognition piece.
Yes.
And so I, when I'm designing mymastery checks, I would also
include something in there tokind of get a gauge on where
(15:18):
they think their level ofunderstanding is to.
So what I like to do is evenjust a question, like, how
confident do you feel about youranswer?
You know, and something likethat.
So building some of those.
I guess it's more like the softskills, right?
That go along with thetraditional kind of grading
piece.
Yeah.
I
Katie (15:38):
also think it's important to, to have that metacognition
piece because they're not allstarting off at the same point.
And so a student who startsstrong and is kind of like going
through the content reallyquickly because they may, you
know, be pretty close toacquiring that mastery, uh, but
just needed that extra push,whereas somebody who's starting
at a much lower level, Andhaving to work harder to get
(16:00):
there.
Their learning and theirindividual learning is so
different.
So getting them to think aboutwhat have I gone through?
What have I done, what have Ilearned, how have I improved?
It's going to look different foreach of them.
And having them acknowledge thatI think is important.
And so I guess, so in workingthrough modern classroom, I
liked kind of what they had fortheir principles of grading.
(16:23):
I.
I really recommend the ModernClassrooms Project.
I know you've been doing thisfor so long.
It took me forever to actuallygo through it, but now that I
am, I'm like, Ooh, I like this.
They kind of had like threeguiding principles on grading
policies and, and what youshould be including.
The first one is beingintentional about what we grade,
(16:45):
which is important.
Like don't just do everything,be very intentional and
specific.
Uh, the second one wasemphasizing growth and this idea
of revising.
So going back, do the revision,you know, getting more feedback
and assessment, kind of that goback to it and revise, revise,
revise, and then focusing onfeedback.
Those were their threeprinciples, and I thought that
(17:05):
was, it's, it's important forteachers to hear and understand
as they're kind of approachingthis new system.
I haven't read
Rachel (17:12):
those principles in quite a while, so thank you for
bringing those up because Wow, Iwas just listening to that and
making connections.
So I've done actually severalworkshops now with Jesse
Stonewell, who is very, very bigin UN grading and.
You know, his message is sostrong and so powerful, but that
(17:33):
idea of building that culture ofrevision and feedback, oh yeah.
It overlaps so much.
So, yeah, I, I don't know what Iwould do with that.
Right.
I'm, I'm still trying to kind ofmuddle my way through what un
grading means and what it wouldlook like in a classroom.
(17:53):
But I think there's a lot therein terms of like, yeah, being
really intentional with whatyou're marking and marking only
the really, really mostimportant things, like putting a
grade on those things andeverything else is feedback
driven.
So you know, that feedback is,did you master it or not and
why?
And having those discussionswith your students.
(18:16):
Whew.
Yeah,
Katie (18:17):
no, it's big.
It's huge.
And I did read some stuff, uh,by Jesse, uh, Stonewell, and I
almost had to stop because I waslike, I need to grasp the
mastery based before I can evenconsider this concept of un
grading because it's too much.
And they're, and they're notexactly.
They don't gel necessarily wellbecause modern still tries to
(18:39):
work in the traditional gradingsystem and kind of maintain that
system, whereas un grading isdisrupting everything
Rachel (18:49):
it is.
And I think my favoriteexpression from Jessie is
raising a critical eyebrow.
So I really like that.
That one's really, really stuckwith me.
I've, I'm finding it funnybecause you're on the same
journey.
I'm on.
I've just, I've been on it alittle bit longer, so Yeah.
Yeah.
It, it's stuff I'm stillgrappling with too, for sure.
(19:09):
But there is a really, reallygreat book.
We'll put the link in our shownotes, and it's called, uh, UN
Grading.
I forget what the subtitle is.
The editor is Susan.
Bloom, I believe, and I readthat over the summer.
It's really good.
It's a collection of writingsfrom different people who are at
(19:30):
different places with un gradingin their classrooms.
And so they kind of look at thewhy behind it.
The big picture they look aboutat the how to, like how to put
it into practice.
And then reflections are kind oflike the third part of the book.
Katie (19:45):
So good.
And for those interested, thefull title is UN Grading.
Why rating students undermineslearning and what to do instead.
Like we
Rachel (19:54):
can't really have a conversation about grading and
mastery if we don't talk alittle bit about on grading.
But totally on grading in itselfis a beast.
So I think we leave it there fornow.
Yes.
So I think one of the.
One of the kind of pieces thatis super helpful with figuring
(20:15):
out, you know, where studentsare at as they're moving through
mastery based structures andcoming up with that grade is
having some way to track it andso, You know, you could track it
with like a Google spreadsheetand have all your different
lessons and just sort of have,whether students mastered it or
not.
And I think just having thatand, and having that kind of
(20:38):
clear idea of the progress ofthe student can give you such a
powerful tool to have thatcommunication with families and.
Really help you with those fifthweek progress reports?
For sure.
Yeah, so there's a couple of,uh, they call them pacing
trackers and modern classroomsdoes suggest that you do display
(21:00):
this publicly in your classroom.
Like one of their suggestions ishaving a public tracker or
having a private tracker wherestudents are tracking it
individually.
There is a lot of like debateout there around that, and I, I
don't even know what I would do.
Personally, but I think justhaving that tracker, especially
(21:20):
as a teacher Yes.
Is so helpful.
And so they've got some exampleson their website and we can, we
can put them out there.
They have one that's an autoupdating one.
That I've seen, which is quitenice.
And then I also have another onefrom Stephanie Howell who shared
it, and it's based on the gridmethod, which is kind of
(21:43):
similar-ish.
It's like differentiating.
It is kind of mastery based andit's having students work
through different chunks, butit's a little bit of an easier
tracker.
So I'll make sure, I'll findboth of those.
We'll link'em in the show notes.
Katie (21:56):
Yeah, I, I think that tracking is key because
depending on the size of yourclass, like as a teacher, you
need to know where each of themis at.
Now I don't know how comfortableI am sharing it with the whole
class, and I think that's,that's part of, I think the
classroom culture and, andrelationships and how
comfortable they are with it.
But you bring up a good point,like, I don't, I don't know.
(22:18):
What would you do?
I
Rachel (22:19):
think if you frame a public tracker in a very careful
way, so you use it as here is atool for you to use to figure
out who you're going tocollaborate with for the day,
then I think it can be a very,very useful tool to put up.
Say and project in yourclassroom or have it on a board.
(22:40):
I saw one Facebook post in the,uh, modern classrooms group, and
they talked, instead of callingit their tracker, they called it
their grouper, and they actuallyused little fish with, uh, the
kids' names on it.
I think it was like a primary,like elementary example.
But then it's a grouper, so it'shere are your groups that you
(23:01):
are working in for today andit's all based on what lesson
everybody is kind of working
Katie (23:06):
on.
See, that makes sense to me.
That makes it more logical.
And then it can be like, thereyou go, like work together,
problem solve through it.
Cuz you're at the same point.
So I do get
Rachel (23:16):
that.
Now, I think if it's just a wayfor you to communicate the
information to your students asto what they're working on for
the day, and you kind of wannaprotect, I guess, that privacy a
little bit more, then you couldgo to having your students pick
code names that they wanna use.
And so we've, we've talked aboutcode names a few times.
Yeah.
For a few different ed techtools.
(23:38):
But, you know, I might get allof my kids to pick their
favorite elements, right?
And that's their name on, on thetracker.
And then it's then empoweringthem to.
If they wanna tell their friendswhat their code name is, they
can, and if they don't wannatell anyone, they don't have to.
No, that
Katie (23:55):
makes sense.
And then it's a little moreanonymous and nobody really
knows for sure
Rachel (23:59):
who is who.
I think the big thing though,with those trackers is like no
grades ever, ever go on them.
It's literally just a, you'redone that lesson or you're
working on it still.
Yes.
Katie (24:11):
That's all it is.
No, I would never place gradeson those.
So next up, maybe we can kind ofshare some ideas, cuz I know
there's no right or wronganswer.
Um, it's really justbrainstorming what's gonna work
best, but, um, sharing someideas about how to build rubrics
or success criteria for masterybased
Rachel (24:30):
classrooms.
One sort of way that I've.
I've seen that I think isreally, really useful here is
looking at standards basedreading.
So I don't know how much you'veread about that, Katie, or, or
looked into it, but it's abouttaking the goals for that
particular lesson and thenyou're designing rubrics like a
(24:52):
4, 3, 2, 1, and sort of what thelook force are for each of those
particular sort of steps.
So you could say, Or maybe it'sa mastered approaching or not
yet approaching or something, ornot yet met or something like
that.
You don't have to use numbers.
But then you can convey to thestudents what sort of level
(25:15):
they're, they're working at, atthat time.
So you, you could say for thisskill, you were approaching
mastery and that feedback on therubric then is, Well, what are
the look for for approaching?
What are the look for forMastered and where's the
difference between the two?
And those are the places thatthe students are working
Katie (25:34):
on.
So I saw one rubric and let methink out loud and share what I
liked and what I didn't like.
So I saw one where it was likemeeting kind of the standard.
One that looks like exceedingand then lumping in.
So we have levels one throughfour, but, so I guess it would
be lumping in one and two wherethey're not yet meeting.
(25:55):
And for the, for the not yetmeeting, it said quite
literally, you are not yetmeeting expectations.
Look at the meeting expectationscategory to see what you need to
be able to do.
And I think that's where thefeedback comes in.
I, I liked it in a sense that,you know, if you're a level
three, so meeting expectations,I very clearly have this, this
(26:16):
is what it looks like withinthere with like you can
statements and then obviously asa teacher you would have that
dialogue and that conversationabout what is lacking in order
for the kid to go back and, and.
Improve that to meetexpectations.
Rachel (26:32):
Now you talking about that has made me think about
single point rubrics and so asingle point rubric just has a
center column with what theexpectations are and then off to
the left is a place for you toput, put comments about where
the students are.
Exceeding expectations.
(26:53):
And then on the right is a spacefor you to add comments and
feedback about where thestudents are not yet meeting
expectations.
Katie (27:02):
Okay.
I like that.
I, I think that having the canstatements, and this is what
mastery looks like, that's themost important part.
So if you're a meeting mastery,That's what kids need to know
and then the comments to be ableto say for either direction.
I think that's good too.
But you have to be meetingexpectations in all of the can
statements.
(27:23):
Is that the
Rachel (27:23):
idea?
Yeah.
I think that's the idea formastery then is you want them
meeting the expectations, right?
You want, you want to have veryclear goals and you want the
students to be able to meetthose goals.
Yep.
And then the single point rubricagain is on that kind of pathway
of un grading because it's veryfocused on the feedback and not
on the grade itself.
(27:45):
So I, I'm, I'm actually quiteliking single point rubrics.
I think they're really, reallyinteresting.
I know Jennifer Gonzalez has areally great blog post on Single
Point Rubrics.
We'll find that one and we'llput that in the show notes too,
cuz she's got some really,really great examples.
In the blog post itself of somesingle point rubrics.
(28:05):
Good to know.
So this is where I see thoseoverlaps between un grading and
mastery based grading.
Katie (28:12):
Yes.
I could see that.
And, and I, I don't intend tomark everything that is for
certain, like, like maybe I willhave.
An assignment, some sort ofculminating assignment once
they've reached a certain numberof skills where they then
demonstrate that in some sort ofproject.
But it's just building thoseskills along the way, step by
step in order to get them there.
Rachel (28:33):
I've also seen on mastery checks where you can
include the, a little rubric atthe bottom if you wanted to, so
you could have the mastered.
Approaching not yet mastered andhave that criteria there for the
student as they're working ontheir mastery check.
I think
Katie (28:49):
that's that.
I think that's needed.
Like when I was reading, and Idon't know who it was, it might
have been Jesse Domo, which isfunny.
By doing like the can statementsand what it looks like, you're
almost structuring it in such away where it's like this
compliance document, and so theyhave to check this, this, this,
this, this.
So it's more like playing agame.
But I like it in the sense thatit's.
(29:10):
Very kind of open like you.
It's transparent.
You know what I'm looking for.
You know what the skills arethat I want you to be able to
demonstrate, and so I'm nothiding what I'm gonna be looking
for in terms of an assignment.
I see both sides of it.
Rachel (29:23):
I think that's where my.
Dislike of rubrics really comesfrom, is that a lot of rubrics
that are built, and I don't meanto pick on the IB program, but
their rubrics are awful in termsof the statements that they make
are.
You know, they're, they're okay,but they're not super clear as
(29:45):
to what exactly they're lookingfor.
And so that really bugs me.
I know for the internalassessment that they do in
chemistry and in any of thesciences, what we did as a
department is we took that IBrubric and we broke it down into
a much larger one where we'relike, this is what we wanna see.
(30:06):
So I, I've never been a fan ofrubrics and I think it's because
it's the language and it's theway that they are set up and a
lot of rubrics out there arepretty darn awful.
Katie (30:19):
And, and I think that's why I like breaking it into
like, this is what it lookslike.
Like, don't just give me theedges speak and the curriculum
documents broken down into arubric.
Like tell students what itactually looks like so that they
can understand what we'relooking for.
Otherwise, I see rubrics as aweapon in a sense.
Rachel (30:37):
Yeah.
You, you essentially get thelanguage like you are exceeding
in this.
Whatever criteria you aremeeting, this criteria, you are
not like, I've, I don't evenremember what the language is
because this is how often I userubrics.
Katie (30:51):
I know it's just too subjective and like, depending
on, and it sounds terrible, butdepending on how a teacher feels
that day, how they're, you know,what they've marked prior to
that, like it's really easy.
To do rubrics
Rachel (31:05):
wrong, and that's where I feel like I could really get
behind a single point rubricbecause I'm more of a fan of
like, almost like a checklistmark scheme kind of deal.
Yes.
Where I list out exactly what Iwant to see, like what the
expectations are.
But I like the idea of me.
Mushing that in with a rubricand creating a single point
(31:26):
rubric so the grades disappearcompletely from it, and you just
have those sections to be ableto provide feedback.
Yeah, no, I think that's key.
And then if you've also got asingle point rubric and it's a
Google doc, you can reallyleverage some of the tech tools
to provide some of thatfeedback.
Yeah,
Katie (31:43):
you can do video feedback, you can do audio
feedback, like there's so manydifferent things that you can
do.
Rachel (31:48):
I'm already picturing putting comments in there with
moat notes, so you could havejust audio or maybe I'm doing a
screencast for each of thedifferent categories.
Like it really doesn't take alot of time when you use a tool
like Screencastify to providethat feedback for your students.
Katie (32:06):
Yeah, I like it.
And to be honest, I'm, I'm eventhinking why a doc?
Why not a slide?
I find that things integrate.
Yeah,
Rachel (32:13):
you could, you could totally do a slide too.
Now, the reason I like, I.
Docs for rubrics and leavingcomments like that.
Like when you comment on aslide, it doesn't really
pinpoint exactly where it isunless you're kind of clicking
on that spot in the slide,right?
Whereas in a Google Doc, it'slike really apparent where
you're leaving the comments, butI guess if you are typing in the
(32:36):
spaces on the slides, then thatwould make sense.
Or you could be embedding thevideos.
And that would be really cool.
Katie (32:43):
Yeah, I would like
Rachel (32:44):
to embed the videos, actually, now that I think about
it.
Yeah, because even the Moatextension, the integration with
Google Slides, you just leaveyour moat message and it puts
the little play button there foryour students and embeds the
audio right in there.
So yeah, maybe slides is better.
Yeah,
Katie (33:01):
I don't know.
I
Rachel (33:02):
like it.
We're coming up with new ideasas we speak.
Katie (33:06):
Well, it's all about kind of going through the material
and brainstorming it out loudand feeling a little crazy at
times.
But, uh, getting there slowlybut surely.
I think, you know, overall myfeeling of grading is we need to
find something that motivatesstudents to engage in the
course.
Like it, it shouldn't be soulcrushing.
(33:28):
And like constantly makingstudents feel like they aren't
good enough.
It needs to be step-by-stepprogress as individualized for
the student.
So I actually wonder for somestudents, you know, if maybe I
include more of their success.
In their grade to help motivatethem to keep going, if
Rachel (33:48):
that makes sense.
That totally makes sense.
And in sort of a coaching roleand what I've seen over the past
year-ish that we've been kind ofpreaching the modern classrooms
framework in our board.
Is that the most success we'reseeing with students being
motivated is in those pathwayswhere traditionally those
(34:09):
students do not have successwith school.
So students who are in ouressential programming or our
applied programming, or thecollege pathways, like
traditionally, those students,you know, don't.
Do well in terms of atraditional grade, but when you
implement something like masterybased grading, what it does for
(34:31):
their confidence, and I don'tknow, I, I just love it for that
because the students are just,they're actually engaged in
school and they feel like schoolhas now become a safe place to
be because.
You know, they're getting thesupport they need.
They're getting to be able tomove through at the pace they
need to, and they'reexperiencing that success.
(34:54):
Well, I think a huge
Katie (34:54):
part is, you know, when you do the chalk and talk and
then you move on the next day tothe next chalk and talk.
Kids who don't get it don't havethat chance to clarify, so we're
just leaving them behind andforging ahead and so, Like, how
does that make you feel atschool?
Of course, you're gonnadisengage and hate school.
Whereas at this model, it reallylike personalizes education and
(35:15):
gives them a chance to feel likethey matter, and their ability
to pick up a con on a concept isimportant to their
Rachel (35:22):
teacher.
Yeah, it does.
It definitely does convey thatmessage, like your ability to
learn our curriculum isimportant to me.
Katie (35:30):
Yeah.
And then me as a teacher goingaround and sitting with you one
day because perhaps maybe you'restruggling with a concept and
giving you that individualizedsupport based on your needs.
It shows we value our students,and I think that's maybe what's
missing in the traditionalclassroom is you don't have the
time.
You really don't, as a teacher,if you're doing chalk and talk
activities, move on.
(35:52):
There isn't time for thatindividualized feedback and, and
support to make everybody
Rachel (35:56):
successful.
Yeah, totally.
And you know, I, I don't like toadmit it, but I have taught that
way cuz I didn't know better.
Right.
So we're back to the MayaAngelo, uh, quotes, but yeah,
like IB especially.
Because I've taught a lot of IBcourses, they cram a lot of
curriculum together.
And so, you know, you almostfeel like you're forced to go
(36:18):
through that chalk and talkroute, and you know that you're
leaving kids behind.
But there's like, I don't know,it's very, uh, disempowering
even from a teacher perspective,knowing that you're not meeting
all the kids' needs.
And so, yes, this is why I love,love, love the idea of.
Self-paced mastery basedstructures in a classroom
(36:40):
because then you are meetingtheir needs,
Katie (36:42):
like having taught IB Spanish.
It's true.
They shove so much curriculum inand it almost feels like, so I
felt like I was teaching grammarconcepts, like so many grammar
concepts of class because likethese kids.
Didn't know how else to engageand learn it.
And so it felt, so I hatedteaching it, but, um, but
(37:04):
mastery based in that sense.
That's great.
Like you can embed many lessonson grammar, but you can do more
exposure to like, films andbooks and poetry and, and teach
the language through authenticuses of the language and embed
the lessons as they need them.
Like even, oh, see, look at me.
I hated teaching it, but masterybased would certainly make it a
(37:25):
much better way to teach it.
Rachel (37:26):
I agree too, and I've, I've had many conversations with
some of my colleagues who areteaching it this year, and I've
been working with a few, evenin, in coaching capacities and
yeah, I can, I can just picturewhat this.
Might look like in a classroom,and you could even build mastery
for the lab skills.
So as they're moving throughtheir lab skills, you know,
(37:48):
they're not doing the titrationbefore they learn how to make a
solution.
Right.
And they, they've mastered thatconcept.
Yeah.
Or they've mastered the abilityto know that when you're
measuring volumes, using abeaker is not very accurate.
You would not believe, like thatis the bane of a chemistry
(38:09):
teacher's existence when theyget to senior level chemistry
and you're like, how are yougoing to measure the volume?
And they're like, with a beaker.
And I'm like, no.
Oh man.
Can at least use a volumetricflask like, please, please
graduated cylinder.
Even like, come on something.
Let's go something.
(38:30):
Something more than a beaker.
Anyway, sorry, I digress.
But that's
Katie (38:35):
true.
Like honestly, I think that hasmore value even.
Like even from teaching, likeI'm thinking now, what we're
implementing in our school issheltered classes for English
language learners for science.
Like that whole idea of the lab,do mastery based labs, get them
used to it because it's a newconcept for many.
Um, and building those skills.
(38:55):
No, that's
Rachel (38:55):
awesome.
Really, that's the way the worldis structure too.
Like if you think about any.
Any sort of job, profession,anything that you do outside of
school, like it really ismastery based.
Yeah.
It's trying
Katie (39:08):
something, realizing it sucks and going back and
improving.
It really is revision constant.
Like educators, what do we do?
We don't just use the samelesson every single year or
every single day.
We are restructuring based onthings we notice are not
working.
Let's give students the chanceto do the same thing.
That
Rachel (39:25):
was my entire PhD program.
Oh.
Let's try an experiment.
It didn't work.
Guess what?
It didn't work again.
And yeah, you keep going back atit though.
Yeah.
And then, you know, like your,your mastery check is publishing
that article and getting yourresearch out there and your
(39:47):
ideas out there.
So, you know, the world isstructured based on mastery
based structures, and so why nothave it in schools?
Katie (39:56):
It's just teaching kids that mistakes are okay versus
that shame of, oh, look how manyI got wrong on this
Rachel (40:02):
test.
Yeah, it makes me think of aswell, you know when you ask a
question in class and you onlyget the couple that put their
hand up because no one elsewants even to remotely be wrong.
So you get all the HermioneGrangers, right?
I'm reading Harry Potter againright now.
So that's why the name'spopping, popping into my head.
But you get all of hers likeputting their hand up cuz they
(40:23):
know the answer, but no one elsewants to take the risk.
Yeah, no, it's so true.
So
Katie (40:28):
yeah, so mastery based and grading.
It's a to.
Yeah, it's a topic with very fewanswers, but lots of ideas, and
you just have to find a way tomake it your own.
Rachel (40:36):
Hopefully, we've given you some ideas here today then
as to ways you might think aboutstructuring your grading in a
mastery based classroom.
And so what we'll do is we'llinclude any of the links and
resources we talked about heretoday in our show notes so you
can find our show notes for thisepisode@edugs.com slash 66.
(40:57):
That's EDU G A L s.com/ 66.
Katie (41:02):
And if you like what you heard today, feel free to share
it with a colleague or friendand don't forget to subscribe on
your favorite podcast app sothat you don't miss out on any
future content.
And as
Rachel (41:11):
always, we encourage you to go onto our flipgrid at edu
gals.com/flipgrid and leave us avideo message there.
So maybe tell us if you aredoing mastery based.
Learning in your classroom.
How are you grading?
Because we would love to hearthat and so leave them us a
message there or you can leaveus a message on our
(41:32):
website@eds.com.
Katie (41:34):
Thanks for listening and see you next week.
Thanks for listening to thisepisode of our edu Gals podcast.
Show notes for this episode areavailable@edugals.com.
That's E D U.
G A l s.com.
(41:55):
We'd also love to hear yourfeedback, so leave us a message
on our website,
Rachel (41:59):
and if you enjoyed what you heard, please subscribe and
consider leaving a rating orreview on your favorite podcast
app.
Until next time, keep beingawesome and try something new.
Welcome to the Edge U Gals podcast.
We are your co-host RachelJohnson
Katie (00:30):
and Katie Atwell.
We are here to bring you tipsand tricks to help you integrate
technology into your classroom.
Rachel (00:39):
In this episode, we are continuing our discussion about
mastery based learning, andspecifically looking at how do
you grade in a mastery basedstructure in your classroom.
Katie (00:50):
We are going to share some of the learning that we
have done on this topic and someguiding principles to keep in
mind as you are.
Exploring the idea of grading ina mastery based classroom.
Let's get
Rachel (01:01):
started.
This week, Katie and I arecontinuing our discussion around
mastery based structures andlearning in the classroom, and,
you know, we, we touched alittle bit about this.
Last episode on grading in amastery based classroom.
(01:23):
So this is where we kind ofwanna focus today, is how do you
grade with mastery basedlearning?
Katie (01:30):
Yes.
And the funny part, or maybe notso funny, I don't know, is.
When I went back and I've beendoing some reading and some
research and looking into thisand trying to learn more, I've
realized there is no answer.
So the logical person in me isnow screaming, what am I doing?
(01:51):
But it, it really comes down toflexibility in finding what
works for you and your students.
That's what I've learned this
Rachel (01:57):
week.
Yeah.
It's funny because.
Katie told me that when we firstjumped onto this Google meet
this morning before we startedrecording, and you know, I, I, I
had that sense last week.
I, I've had that sense for awhile in terms of grading and
mastery based structures.
Like there really is no clearcut answer.
And so it was, it was prettyfunny.
(02:18):
I know.
Katie (02:19):
So I've been working through the Modern Classrooms
project and, and I do give some,I guess examples or some
teachers approaches to grading.
And it's funny cuz I read someof them and I'm like, quizzes
and tests, no, this is not me.
And, and then you have to likego through and kind of figure
out, you know, what is yourstyle, what is your curriculum
(02:39):
like, and what are your goalsand, and how can you make it fit
with the traditional gradingsystem while still.
Encouraging student learning andagency.
I think
Rachel (02:52):
it really is gonna depend on what curriculum area
you're in, who you work with,and what sort of structures you
already have in place.
Because I think that's, that'sgonna be where everybody's
starting places.
Katie (03:05):
And so to give you an idea, here in Ontario, we have.
You know, different reportingperiods that we have to be
accountable for.
So we do a quick check-in in thefifth week of classes just to
make students aware of, youknow, if they're struggling or
perhaps not being as successful.
It's kind of a way to letparents and students know, Hey,
(03:27):
we need to get on track here.
We also have midterms and thenwe have 15th weeks for students
who are in danger of perhaps notgetting the credit.
And then we have finals.
So we have four reportingperiods where we are expected to
have, you know, some idea as toprogress, particularly at the
beginning where it's kind oftough.
(03:47):
Uh, cuz you haven't done asmuch, but I.
So the idea is showing thatprogress throughout and
reporting on that.
So it can become tricky withmastery based is what I've
discovered.
Rachel (03:57):
I almost think that though, that that's a good
structure for us to talk about.
So why don't we talk about thatfirst sort of chunk of.
Learning in the classroom thefirst sort of five weeks of, of
a semester, because in thosefirst five weeks you are
learning about your students,you're getting to know them, and
those fifth week reports that wedo don't require us to report a
(04:21):
mark.
It's reporting on the progressof the students.
So I think.
That's a good place to talkabout and then we can talk about
coming up with grades afterwardsfor that midterm, the 15th week
and the final reports.
Katie (04:34):
Yes, and me as a teacher, I always struggle with fifth
weeks because we spend, so, Ispend so much time almost doing
diagnostics.
Like in order for me toeffectively teach my students,
especially in English as anadditional language, I have to
know where they're at.
And so in order to do that, youknow, I have to spend time
diagnosing their skills,figuring out where they're at,
(04:57):
seeing their individualstrengths, and then areas where
they still kind of need thatextra support before I can
really move forward.
So to be honest, for me, fifthweeks are tough because I might
have.
One, like one assignment that isput in there.
Um, but it's not usually like amajor assignment
Rachel (05:16):
necessarily.
I've actually had very similarexperiences in science.
You know, e ESL is definitelynot an outlier when those fifth
week progress reports comearound.
Pretty much in any course I'veever taught, there's only ever
maybe one evaluation, maybe twoat the most.
And in science, you know, it's alot more traditional.
So there might be a quiz andmaybe a unit test, but usually
(05:40):
you haven't even finished a fullunit of study by the fifth week.
Or if you have, you've had thetest, but you haven't marked it
yet.
Katie (05:48):
That's, that's good to know because like I don't often
know what other people are doingand how many things they have,
so I tend to be self-consciousof the fact that I really
despise fifth weeks cuz I feellike I haven't done enough
Rachel (06:01):
Now.
I do feel like, okay, if, if youhave a mastery based grading
sort of practice set up in yourclassroom and you're doing it
lesson by lesson, so verysimilar to.
What the Modern ClassroomsProject sets out in terms of
their framework.
Then I feel like by fifth weekyou would have a good chunk of
(06:22):
lessons that the students shouldhave mastered by that point when
that progress is coming out.
So I almost feel like it wouldbe, Easier to be able to do
those progress reports withsomething like this framework in
place than the traditional waythat we do it right now.
Now
Katie (06:39):
follow up question to that.
So when you do mastery basedand, and this is what I'm still
kind of wrestling with in mymind, do you have like almost
like a schedule as to when theyshould achieve certain checks?
Like, is that like checks andbalances?
Like, by this time you shouldhave accomplished this?
Rachel (06:57):
Yeah, I think you need to have some sort of pacing
still in there.
You can't be completely fullyself-paced, you know, maybe you
can in some courses, but the wayI'm, I'm sort of picturing what
it would look like in myclassroom.
It wouldn't be fully like, Justfinish it whenever you want to.
You, you have to have a pace inthere.
(07:17):
Otherwise it's a
Katie (07:18):
disaster and trying to get these kids to move forward,
right?
So there still has to bestructure.
So you're right, like maybe thefirst two weeks they're kind of
getting used to this newstructure of mastery based and
guiding them through it more.
But then, you know, they haveanother three weeks where they
should be able to progressthrough, do some mastery checks,
but then the follow up, what arewe including for Marks?
Rachel (07:40):
Yeah.
So that's where it gets tricky.
Mm-hmm.
Katie (07:42):
And that's what I've discovered.
Rachel (07:46):
Yes.
And so one of the, um, Facebookgroups that are really, really
great is the Modern ClassroomsProject Facebook group.
Like they have so many.
Good discussions in there onthis topic, and I've, I've read
them all.
It's, it's insane how much thistopic really comes up and, and
people talk about, but you know,you there, there's the question
(08:08):
around what do you definemastery as, first off, like what
grade does that get and then howdo you put that into your grade
book?
Now a very sort of traditionalway that you could do it is
every lesson, you know, you putin your grade book as the
mastery check, and then the markthat you put in is either, I
(08:29):
don't, well, okay, we need to goback to what you define mastery
as.
But say you say it's, it has tobe a hundred percent just to
make the the example easier.
Then the grade you would put infor mastering that lesson would
be like a 10 outta 10.
And if they haven't mastered ityet, then it's a zero and it's a
soft zero until they master thatskill.
(08:50):
But then when you get to thatprogress report time, if they've
mastered, say, seven out of.
10 of the lessons that theyshould have mastered and their
grade is 70%.
Okay.
I could see
Katie (09:00):
that.
Now I've read where someteachers don't actually mark,
like for grades, the masterychecks, and so then I guess
there's in assignment or someother work that they then take
those skills they've masteredand demonstrated.
Yeah, I know
Rachel (09:17):
a lot of teachers out there will.
Like the mastery checks are notthe only thing that goes into
your grade, and I agree itshouldn't be the only thing that
goes into your grade book.
There should be other pieces toit.
So you've got a whole choice interms of what are the other
pieces that go in there.
Like for science, maybe it's.
(09:39):
A lab report of some sort or aproject, or a lot of teachers
will still do a summative unittest at the end, and maybe
that's the grade that goes in.
So from there, you could add inthe mastery check marks if you
wanted to, or if you didn't wantto and only wanted to count
those summative pieces, then youcould do that as well.
Katie (09:59):
And now here's a follow up question to that.
So I know so many questions.
Can you tell I'm still on thislearning journey?
So for science, for example, ifyou're gonna have like a
summative test, is that kind ofyour goal date for your
students?
Like are they all writing on thesame day as a goal, or can they
(10:21):
take that staggered based on howprepared they are?
Rachel (10:24):
I've seen it a few ways.
So it could be a set goal dateand that's when the unit's done.
We need to move on kind of dealso that they're all writing on
the same day.
I've also seen it set up whereit's a window of a few days, so
maybe a three day window andthey can write their summative
evaluation in one of those threedays, you know, depending on
(10:46):
their comfort level and their,their level of readiness.
So you could do that as well.
Katie (10:51):
Okay.
Good to know.
Good to know.
Let me think of my other millionquestions.
Rachel (10:55):
I certainly don't have all the answers.
I'm still No.
Like this is still a learningjourney for me too, and I've
only really, I.
Sort of gotten a really goodgrasp of what mastery based
learning can be and could looklike in a classroom.
I haven't done it with a classmyself, and so, you know, the,
these are all ways that I thinkI would put it into place, but I
(11:17):
don't know how well they wouldwork.
That makes sense.
Yeah.
And I think we also have theother added layer in Ontario of.
Grading categories, and I knowevery school board does it
slightly differently, but in ourschool board, we actually have
to show how each of the marks isrelated to each of the different
(11:37):
categories.
So we have knowledge andunderstanding.
We have thinking, inquiry,application, and communication.
And so then that adds a layer ofcomplexity, like where do you
put the mastery checks?
Yeah.
What category do they go under?
Right.
Katie (11:51):
But one thing I kind of liked, and I can't remember
where I read this or who said itwas, you know, wherever you end
up, whatever you end up marking.
Make sure it was something thatwas explicitly taught within
those mastery checks.
So for example, if you haven'texplicitly taught specific
grammar concepts, you shouldn'tthen be marking for those on
(12:13):
your rubric.
You can't mark down forsomething that you have not
explicitly taught.
Rachel (12:17):
And I think that actually comes back to how do
you design these lessons in thefirst place, and you know, You
hear this over and over again,right?
But backwards design is soimportant here.
You start with your masterycheck.
You start with going, okay, whatis my learning goal?
What do I expect my students toget out of this lesson?
And how do I figure out thatthey've mastered that particular
(12:42):
learning goal?
And you design your masterycheck based on that.
And then from there you gobackwards.
Create your instructional video,create your practice, create
whatever else is going with thatin order to help students get to
that point where they candemonstrate the mastery.
No,
Katie (12:58):
definitely.
That makes so much sense.
My wheels are turning.
Rachel (13:02):
Yeah.
Well it's, it, it's commonsense, right.
You know, and it's what theyteach us in teachers college
over and over again that youshould be backwards designing.
This is like really trulybackwards designing, though.
I don't know how many of usreally.
On the day to day as we'replanning our lessons and doing
(13:22):
our, our chalk and talk orwhatever, you know, are we
really backwards designing?
I think
Katie (13:28):
some do.
Yeah.
I don't know.
And, and the other hard thingfor me is mastery.
For mastery based.
I am.
The kind of teacher who willtake a lesson, realize what they
still need work on andcompletely revamp my future
lessons, if that makes sense.
So Mastery base scares me cuz Ialmost have to anticipate ahead
of time what all of theindividual needs will be so that
(13:50):
I can be prepared to help themflex and change and get.
More support based on perhapswhat I didn't expect.
But I think that comes down tofeedback.
And that can be, you know, aquick little like Screencast
when saying, Hey, I noticedthis.
Let's talk about this quickly.
Here's a YouTube video.
Cuz I may not have time toexplain all of the lessons in
that first year.
(14:11):
But then from there I cancontinue to build resources and
my own voice and, and whatnotwhere I'm included in it, to
then help them kind of go backand build those different
Rachel (14:23):
areas.
I would definitely be askingstudents for feedback too,
throughout the, the unit,throughout the entire course.
So I would say midway throughunit's, a good time to.
Get them to fill out a feedbackform.
If you wanna leave it anonymous,you can.
Super easy to set up with GoogleForms, right?
Yeah.
And then I would also be askingfor that feedback at the end of
(14:44):
a unit as well.
Yeah,
Katie (14:46):
no, definitely it's, I'm not doing this for me.
I'm doing this for them.
So it's important that I knowhow they are doing and what they
feel I can improve upon.
I also
Rachel (14:54):
really love getting students to think about their
thinking and their learning.
So that's kind of a, a big sortof thing that I.
I like incorporating intovarious different aspects in my
classroom.
The metacognition piece.
Yes.
And so I, when I'm designing mymastery checks, I would also
include something in there tokind of get a gauge on where
(15:18):
they think their level ofunderstanding is to.
So what I like to do is evenjust a question, like, how
confident do you feel about youranswer?
You know, and something likethat.
So building some of those.
I guess it's more like the softskills, right?
That go along with thetraditional kind of grading
piece.
Yeah.
I
Katie (15:38):
also think it's important to, to have that metacognition
piece because they're not allstarting off at the same point.
And so a student who startsstrong and is kind of like going
through the content reallyquickly because they may, you
know, be pretty close toacquiring that mastery, uh, but
just needed that extra push,whereas somebody who's starting
at a much lower level, Andhaving to work harder to get
(16:00):
there.
Their learning and theirindividual learning is so
different.
So getting them to think aboutwhat have I gone through?
What have I done, what have Ilearned, how have I improved?
It's going to look different foreach of them.
And having them acknowledge thatI think is important.
And so I guess, so in workingthrough modern classroom, I
liked kind of what they had fortheir principles of grading.
(16:23):
I.
I really recommend the ModernClassrooms Project.
I know you've been doing thisfor so long.
It took me forever to actuallygo through it, but now that I
am, I'm like, Ooh, I like this.
They kind of had like threeguiding principles on grading
policies and, and what youshould be including.
The first one is beingintentional about what we grade,
(16:45):
which is important.
Like don't just do everything,be very intentional and
specific.
Uh, the second one wasemphasizing growth and this idea
of revising.
So going back, do the revision,you know, getting more feedback
and assessment, kind of that goback to it and revise, revise,
revise, and then focusing onfeedback.
Those were their threeprinciples, and I thought that
(17:05):
was, it's, it's important forteachers to hear and understand
as they're kind of approachingthis new system.
I haven't read
Rachel (17:12):
those principles in quite a while, so thank you for
bringing those up because Wow, Iwas just listening to that and
making connections.
So I've done actually severalworkshops now with Jesse
Stonewell, who is very, very bigin UN grading and.
You know, his message is sostrong and so powerful, but that
(17:33):
idea of building that culture ofrevision and feedback, oh yeah.
It overlaps so much.
So, yeah, I, I don't know what Iwould do with that.
Right.
I'm, I'm still trying to kind ofmuddle my way through what un
grading means and what it wouldlook like in a classroom.
(17:53):
But I think there's a lot therein terms of like, yeah, being
really intentional with whatyou're marking and marking only
the really, really mostimportant things, like putting a
grade on those things andeverything else is feedback
driven.
So you know, that feedback is,did you master it or not and
why?
And having those discussionswith your students.
(18:16):
Whew.
Yeah,
Katie (18:17):
no, it's big.
It's huge.
And I did read some stuff, uh,by Jesse, uh, Stonewell, and I
almost had to stop because I waslike, I need to grasp the
mastery based before I can evenconsider this concept of un
grading because it's too much.
And they're, and they're notexactly.
They don't gel necessarily wellbecause modern still tries to
(18:39):
work in the traditional gradingsystem and kind of maintain that
system, whereas un grading isdisrupting everything
Rachel (18:49):
it is.
And I think my favoriteexpression from Jessie is
raising a critical eyebrow.
So I really like that.
That one's really, really stuckwith me.
I've, I'm finding it funnybecause you're on the same
journey.
I'm on.
I've just, I've been on it alittle bit longer, so Yeah.
Yeah.
It, it's stuff I'm stillgrappling with too, for sure.
(19:09):
But there is a really, reallygreat book.
We'll put the link in our shownotes, and it's called, uh, UN
Grading.
I forget what the subtitle is.
The editor is Susan.
Bloom, I believe, and I readthat over the summer.
It's really good.
It's a collection of writingsfrom different people who are at
(19:30):
different places with un gradingin their classrooms.
And so they kind of look at thewhy behind it.
The big picture they look aboutat the how to, like how to put
it into practice.
And then reflections are kind oflike the third part of the book.
Katie (19:45):
So good.
And for those interested, thefull title is UN Grading.
Why rating students undermineslearning and what to do instead.
Like we
Rachel (19:54):
can't really have a conversation about grading and
mastery if we don't talk alittle bit about on grading.
But totally on grading in itselfis a beast.
So I think we leave it there fornow.
Yes.
So I think one of the.
One of the kind of pieces thatis super helpful with figuring
(20:15):
out, you know, where studentsare at as they're moving through
mastery based structures andcoming up with that grade is
having some way to track it andso, You know, you could track it
with like a Google spreadsheetand have all your different
lessons and just sort of have,whether students mastered it or
not.
And I think just having thatand, and having that kind of
(20:38):
clear idea of the progress ofthe student can give you such a
powerful tool to have thatcommunication with families and.
Really help you with those fifthweek progress reports?
For sure.
Yeah, so there's a couple of,uh, they call them pacing
trackers and modern classroomsdoes suggest that you do display
(21:00):
this publicly in your classroom.
Like one of their suggestions ishaving a public tracker or
having a private tracker wherestudents are tracking it
individually.
There is a lot of like debateout there around that, and I, I
don't even know what I would do.
Personally, but I think justhaving that tracker, especially
(21:20):
as a teacher Yes.
Is so helpful.
And so they've got some exampleson their website and we can, we
can put them out there.
They have one that's an autoupdating one.
That I've seen, which is quitenice.
And then I also have another onefrom Stephanie Howell who shared
it, and it's based on the gridmethod, which is kind of
(21:43):
similar-ish.
It's like differentiating.
It is kind of mastery based andit's having students work
through different chunks, butit's a little bit of an easier
tracker.
So I'll make sure, I'll findboth of those.
We'll link'em in the show notes.
Katie (21:56):
Yeah, I, I think that tracking is key because
depending on the size of yourclass, like as a teacher, you
need to know where each of themis at.
Now I don't know how comfortableI am sharing it with the whole
class, and I think that's,that's part of, I think the
classroom culture and, andrelationships and how
comfortable they are with it.
But you bring up a good point,like, I don't, I don't know.
(22:18):
What would you do?
I
Rachel (22:19):
think if you frame a public tracker in a very careful
way, so you use it as here is atool for you to use to figure
out who you're going tocollaborate with for the day,
then I think it can be a very,very useful tool to put up.
Say and project in yourclassroom or have it on a board.
(22:40):
I saw one Facebook post in the,uh, modern classrooms group, and
they talked, instead of callingit their tracker, they called it
their grouper, and they actuallyused little fish with, uh, the
kids' names on it.
I think it was like a primary,like elementary example.
But then it's a grouper, so it'shere are your groups that you
(23:01):
are working in for today andit's all based on what lesson
everybody is kind of working
Katie (23:06):
on.
See, that makes sense to me.
That makes it more logical.
And then it can be like, thereyou go, like work together,
problem solve through it.
Cuz you're at the same point.
So I do get
Rachel (23:16):
that.
Now, I think if it's just a wayfor you to communicate the
information to your students asto what they're working on for
the day, and you kind of wannaprotect, I guess, that privacy a
little bit more, then you couldgo to having your students pick
code names that they wanna use.
And so we've, we've talked aboutcode names a few times.
Yeah.
For a few different ed techtools.
(23:38):
But, you know, I might get allof my kids to pick their
favorite elements, right?
And that's their name on, on thetracker.
And then it's then empoweringthem to.
If they wanna tell their friendswhat their code name is, they
can, and if they don't wannatell anyone, they don't have to.
No, that
Katie (23:55):
makes sense.
And then it's a little moreanonymous and nobody really
knows for sure
Rachel (23:59):
who is who.
I think the big thing though,with those trackers is like no
grades ever, ever go on them.
It's literally just a, you'redone that lesson or you're
working on it still.
Yes.
Katie (24:11):
That's all it is.
No, I would never place gradeson those.
So next up, maybe we can kind ofshare some ideas, cuz I know
there's no right or wronganswer.
Um, it's really justbrainstorming what's gonna work
best, but, um, sharing someideas about how to build rubrics
or success criteria for masterybased
Rachel (24:30):
classrooms.
One sort of way that I've.
I've seen that I think isreally, really useful here is
looking at standards basedreading.
So I don't know how much you'veread about that, Katie, or, or
looked into it, but it's abouttaking the goals for that
particular lesson and thenyou're designing rubrics like a
(24:52):
4, 3, 2, 1, and sort of what thelook force are for each of those
particular sort of steps.
So you could say, Or maybe it'sa mastered approaching or not
yet approaching or something, ornot yet met or something like
that.
You don't have to use numbers.
But then you can convey to thestudents what sort of level
(25:15):
they're, they're working at, atthat time.
So you, you could say for thisskill, you were approaching
mastery and that feedback on therubric then is, Well, what are
the look for for approaching?
What are the look for forMastered and where's the
difference between the two?
And those are the places thatthe students are working
Katie (25:34):
on.
So I saw one rubric and let methink out loud and share what I
liked and what I didn't like.
So I saw one where it was likemeeting kind of the standard.
One that looks like exceedingand then lumping in.
So we have levels one throughfour, but, so I guess it would
be lumping in one and two wherethey're not yet meeting.
(25:55):
And for the, for the not yetmeeting, it said quite
literally, you are not yetmeeting expectations.
Look at the meeting expectationscategory to see what you need to
be able to do.
And I think that's where thefeedback comes in.
I, I liked it in a sense that,you know, if you're a level
three, so meeting expectations,I very clearly have this, this
(26:16):
is what it looks like withinthere with like you can
statements and then obviously asa teacher you would have that
dialogue and that conversationabout what is lacking in order
for the kid to go back and, and.
Improve that to meetexpectations.
Rachel (26:32):
Now you talking about that has made me think about
single point rubrics and so asingle point rubric just has a
center column with what theexpectations are and then off to
the left is a place for you toput, put comments about where
the students are.
Exceeding expectations.
(26:53):
And then on the right is a spacefor you to add comments and
feedback about where thestudents are not yet meeting
expectations.
Katie (27:02):
Okay.
I like that.
I, I think that having the canstatements, and this is what
mastery looks like, that's themost important part.
So if you're a meeting mastery,That's what kids need to know
and then the comments to be ableto say for either direction.
I think that's good too.
But you have to be meetingexpectations in all of the can
statements.
(27:23):
Is that the
Rachel (27:23):
idea?
Yeah.
I think that's the idea formastery then is you want them
meeting the expectations, right?
You want, you want to have veryclear goals and you want the
students to be able to meetthose goals.
Yep.
And then the single point rubricagain is on that kind of pathway
of un grading because it's veryfocused on the feedback and not
on the grade itself.
(27:45):
So I, I'm, I'm actually quiteliking single point rubrics.
I think they're really, reallyinteresting.
I know Jennifer Gonzalez has areally great blog post on Single
Point Rubrics.
We'll find that one and we'llput that in the show notes too,
cuz she's got some really,really great examples.
In the blog post itself of somesingle point rubrics.
(28:05):
Good to know.
So this is where I see thoseoverlaps between un grading and
mastery based grading.
Katie (28:12):
Yes.
I could see that.
And, and I, I don't intend tomark everything that is for
certain, like, like maybe I willhave.
An assignment, some sort ofculminating assignment once
they've reached a certain numberof skills where they then
demonstrate that in some sort ofproject.
But it's just building thoseskills along the way, step by
step in order to get them there.
Rachel (28:33):
I've also seen on mastery checks where you can
include the, a little rubric atthe bottom if you wanted to, so
you could have the mastered.
Approaching not yet mastered andhave that criteria there for the
student as they're working ontheir mastery check.
I think
Katie (28:49):
that's that.
I think that's needed.
Like when I was reading, and Idon't know who it was, it might
have been Jesse Domo, which isfunny.
By doing like the can statementsand what it looks like, you're
almost structuring it in such away where it's like this
compliance document, and so theyhave to check this, this, this,
this, this.
So it's more like playing agame.
But I like it in the sense thatit's.
(29:10):
Very kind of open like you.
It's transparent.
You know what I'm looking for.
You know what the skills arethat I want you to be able to
demonstrate, and so I'm nothiding what I'm gonna be looking
for in terms of an assignment.
I see both sides of it.
Rachel (29:23):
I think that's where my.
Dislike of rubrics really comesfrom, is that a lot of rubrics
that are built, and I don't meanto pick on the IB program, but
their rubrics are awful in termsof the statements that they make
are.
You know, they're, they're okay,but they're not super clear as
(29:45):
to what exactly they're lookingfor.
And so that really bugs me.
I know for the internalassessment that they do in
chemistry and in any of thesciences, what we did as a
department is we took that IBrubric and we broke it down into
a much larger one where we'relike, this is what we wanna see.
(30:06):
So I, I've never been a fan ofrubrics and I think it's because
it's the language and it's theway that they are set up and a
lot of rubrics out there arepretty darn awful.
Katie (30:19):
And, and I think that's why I like breaking it into
like, this is what it lookslike.
Like, don't just give me theedges speak and the curriculum
documents broken down into arubric.
Like tell students what itactually looks like so that they
can understand what we'relooking for.
Otherwise, I see rubrics as aweapon in a sense.
Rachel (30:37):
Yeah.
You, you essentially get thelanguage like you are exceeding
in this.
Whatever criteria you aremeeting, this criteria, you are
not like, I've, I don't evenremember what the language is
because this is how often I userubrics.
Katie (30:51):
I know it's just too subjective and like, depending
on, and it sounds terrible, butdepending on how a teacher feels
that day, how they're, you know,what they've marked prior to
that, like it's really easy.
To do rubrics
Rachel (31:05):
wrong, and that's where I feel like I could really get
behind a single point rubricbecause I'm more of a fan of
like, almost like a checklistmark scheme kind of deal.
Yes.
Where I list out exactly what Iwant to see, like what the
expectations are.
But I like the idea of me.
Mushing that in with a rubricand creating a single point
(31:26):
rubric so the grades disappearcompletely from it, and you just
have those sections to be ableto provide feedback.
Yeah, no, I think that's key.
And then if you've also got asingle point rubric and it's a
Google doc, you can reallyleverage some of the tech tools
to provide some of thatfeedback.
Yeah,
Katie (31:43):
you can do video feedback, you can do audio
feedback, like there's so manydifferent things that you can
do.
Rachel (31:48):
I'm already picturing putting comments in there with
moat notes, so you could havejust audio or maybe I'm doing a
screencast for each of thedifferent categories.
Like it really doesn't take alot of time when you use a tool
like Screencastify to providethat feedback for your students.
Katie (32:06):
Yeah, I like it.
And to be honest, I'm, I'm eventhinking why a doc?
Why not a slide?
I find that things integrate.
Yeah,
Rachel (32:13):
you could, you could totally do a slide too.
Now, the reason I like, I.
Docs for rubrics and leavingcomments like that.
Like when you comment on aslide, it doesn't really
pinpoint exactly where it isunless you're kind of clicking
on that spot in the slide,right?
Whereas in a Google Doc, it'slike really apparent where
you're leaving the comments, butI guess if you are typing in the
(32:36):
spaces on the slides, then thatwould make sense.
Or you could be embedding thevideos.
And that would be really cool.
Katie (32:43):
Yeah, I would like
Rachel (32:44):
to embed the videos, actually, now that I think about
it.
Yeah, because even the Moatextension, the integration with
Google Slides, you just leaveyour moat message and it puts
the little play button there foryour students and embeds the
audio right in there.
So yeah, maybe slides is better.
Yeah,
Katie (33:01):
I don't know.
I
Rachel (33:02):
like it.
We're coming up with new ideasas we speak.
Katie (33:06):
Well, it's all about kind of going through the material
and brainstorming it out loudand feeling a little crazy at
times.
But, uh, getting there slowlybut surely.
I think, you know, overall myfeeling of grading is we need to
find something that motivatesstudents to engage in the
course.
Like it, it shouldn't be soulcrushing.
(33:28):
And like constantly makingstudents feel like they aren't
good enough.
It needs to be step-by-stepprogress as individualized for
the student.
So I actually wonder for somestudents, you know, if maybe I
include more of their success.
In their grade to help motivatethem to keep going, if
Rachel (33:48):
that makes sense.
That totally makes sense.
And in sort of a coaching roleand what I've seen over the past
year-ish that we've been kind ofpreaching the modern classrooms
framework in our board.
Is that the most success we'reseeing with students being
motivated is in those pathwayswhere traditionally those
(34:09):
students do not have successwith school.
So students who are in ouressential programming or our
applied programming, or thecollege pathways, like
traditionally, those students,you know, don't.
Do well in terms of atraditional grade, but when you
implement something like masterybased grading, what it does for
(34:31):
their confidence, and I don'tknow, I, I just love it for that
because the students are just,they're actually engaged in
school and they feel like schoolhas now become a safe place to
be because.
You know, they're getting thesupport they need.
They're getting to be able tomove through at the pace they
need to, and they'reexperiencing that success.
(34:54):
Well, I think a huge
Katie (34:54):
part is, you know, when you do the chalk and talk and
then you move on the next day tothe next chalk and talk.
Kids who don't get it don't havethat chance to clarify, so we're
just leaving them behind andforging ahead and so, Like, how
does that make you feel atschool?
Of course, you're gonnadisengage and hate school.
Whereas at this model, it reallylike personalizes education and
(35:15):
gives them a chance to feel likethey matter, and their ability
to pick up a con on a concept isimportant to their
Rachel (35:22):
teacher.
Yeah, it does.
It definitely does convey thatmessage, like your ability to
learn our curriculum isimportant to me.
Katie (35:30):
Yeah.
And then me as a teacher goingaround and sitting with you one
day because perhaps maybe you'restruggling with a concept and
giving you that individualizedsupport based on your needs.
It shows we value our students,and I think that's maybe what's
missing in the traditionalclassroom is you don't have the
time.
You really don't, as a teacher,if you're doing chalk and talk
activities, move on.
(35:52):
There isn't time for thatindividualized feedback and, and
support to make everybody
Rachel (35:56):
successful.
Yeah, totally.
And you know, I, I don't like toadmit it, but I have taught that
way cuz I didn't know better.
Right.
So we're back to the MayaAngelo, uh, quotes, but yeah,
like IB especially.
Because I've taught a lot of IBcourses, they cram a lot of
curriculum together.
And so, you know, you almostfeel like you're forced to go
(36:18):
through that chalk and talkroute, and you know that you're
leaving kids behind.
But there's like, I don't know,it's very, uh, disempowering
even from a teacher perspective,knowing that you're not meeting
all the kids' needs.
And so, yes, this is why I love,love, love the idea of.
Self-paced mastery basedstructures in a classroom
(36:40):
because then you are meetingtheir needs,
Katie (36:42):
like having taught IB Spanish.
It's true.
They shove so much curriculum inand it almost feels like, so I
felt like I was teaching grammarconcepts, like so many grammar
concepts of class because likethese kids.
Didn't know how else to engageand learn it.
And so it felt, so I hatedteaching it, but, um, but
(37:04):
mastery based in that sense.
That's great.
Like you can embed many lessonson grammar, but you can do more
exposure to like, films andbooks and poetry and, and teach
the language through authenticuses of the language and embed
the lessons as they need them.
Like even, oh, see, look at me.
I hated teaching it, but masterybased would certainly make it a
(37:25):
much better way to teach it.
Rachel (37:26):
I agree too, and I've, I've had many conversations with
some of my colleagues who areteaching it this year, and I've
been working with a few, evenin, in coaching capacities and
yeah, I can, I can just picturewhat this.
Might look like in a classroom,and you could even build mastery
for the lab skills.
So as they're moving throughtheir lab skills, you know,
(37:48):
they're not doing the titrationbefore they learn how to make a
solution.
Right.
And they, they've mastered thatconcept.
Yeah.
Or they've mastered the abilityto know that when you're
measuring volumes, using abeaker is not very accurate.
You would not believe, like thatis the bane of a chemistry
(38:09):
teacher's existence when theyget to senior level chemistry
and you're like, how are yougoing to measure the volume?
And they're like, with a beaker.
And I'm like, no.
Oh man.
Can at least use a volumetricflask like, please, please
graduated cylinder.
Even like, come on something.
Let's go something.
(38:30):
Something more than a beaker.
Anyway, sorry, I digress.
But that's
Katie (38:35):
true.
Like honestly, I think that hasmore value even.
Like even from teaching, likeI'm thinking now, what we're
implementing in our school issheltered classes for English
language learners for science.
Like that whole idea of the lab,do mastery based labs, get them
used to it because it's a newconcept for many.
Um, and building those skills.
(38:55):
No, that's
Rachel (38:55):
awesome.
Really, that's the way the worldis structure too.
Like if you think about any.
Any sort of job, profession,anything that you do outside of
school, like it really ismastery based.
Yeah.
It's trying
Katie (39:08):
something, realizing it sucks and going back and
improving.
It really is revision constant.
Like educators, what do we do?
We don't just use the samelesson every single year or
every single day.
We are restructuring based onthings we notice are not
working.
Let's give students the chanceto do the same thing.
That
Rachel (39:25):
was my entire PhD program.
Oh.
Let's try an experiment.
It didn't work.
Guess what?
It didn't work again.
And yeah, you keep going back atit though.
Yeah.
And then, you know, like your,your mastery check is publishing
that article and getting yourresearch out there and your
(39:47):
ideas out there.
So, you know, the world isstructured based on mastery
based structures, and so why nothave it in schools?
Katie (39:56):
It's just teaching kids that mistakes are okay versus
that shame of, oh, look how manyI got wrong on this
Rachel (40:02):
test.
Yeah, it makes me think of aswell, you know when you ask a
question in class and you onlyget the couple that put their
hand up because no one elsewants even to remotely be wrong.
So you get all the HermioneGrangers, right?
I'm reading Harry Potter againright now.
So that's why the name'spopping, popping into my head.
But you get all of hers likeputting their hand up cuz they
(40:23):
know the answer, but no one elsewants to take the risk.
Yeah, no, it's so true.
So
Katie (40:28):
yeah, so mastery based and grading.
It's a to.
Yeah, it's a topic with very fewanswers, but lots of ideas, and
you just have to find a way tomake it your own.
Rachel (40:36):
Hopefully, we've given you some ideas here today then
as to ways you might think aboutstructuring your grading in a
mastery based classroom.
And so what we'll do is we'llinclude any of the links and
resources we talked about heretoday in our show notes so you
can find our show notes for thisepisode@edugs.com slash 66.
(40:57):
That's EDU G A L s.com/ 66.
Katie (41:02):
And if you like what you heard today, feel free to share
it with a colleague or friendand don't forget to subscribe on
your favorite podcast app sothat you don't miss out on any
future content.
And as
Rachel (41:11):
always, we encourage you to go onto our flipgrid at edu
gals.com/flipgrid and leave us avideo message there.
So maybe tell us if you aredoing mastery based.
Learning in your classroom.
How are you grading?
Because we would love to hearthat and so leave them us a
message there or you can leaveus a message on our
(41:32):
website@eds.com.
Katie (41:34):
Thanks for listening and see you next week.
Thanks for listening to thisepisode of our edu Gals podcast.
Show notes for this episode areavailable@edugals.com.
That's E D U.
G A l s.com.
(41:55):
We'd also love to hear yourfeedback, so leave us a message
on our website,
Rachel (41:59):
and if you enjoyed what you heard, please subscribe and
consider leaving a rating orreview on your favorite podcast
app.
Until next time, keep beingawesome and try something new.
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