September 17, 2025 • 32 mins
In this episode of EdUp L&D, Holly Owens interviews Andy Shean, the Chief Learning Officer of Penn Foster Group. They discuss the transformative power of technology in education, the need for reimagining traditional educational pathways, and how Penn Foster is making education accessible and career-aligned for working adults. The conversation also delves into the role of AI in education and offers valuable advice for aspiring learning and development professionals
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome back to another rivetingepisode of Add Up L&D.
I'm your host, Holly Owens, and today's conversation is 1 you
don't want to miss. I'm joined by Andy Sheen, the
Chief Learning Officer of Penn Foster Group, an organization
that's redefining what accessible, affordable, and
(00:22):
career aligned education really looks like.
In this episode, Andy shares hisjourney from teaching at risk
youth to leading learning innovation from one of the
largest high schools in the country.
We dig into the aha moments thatshowed him the transform the
transformative power of technology and education.
(00:44):
We talk about why higher Ed needs to reimagine its
one-size-fits-all approach in K to 12 too, and explore how Penn
Foster Group is helping working adults and career changers build
real world skills without the crushing burden of student debt.
We even got into some fun, some very fun side topics, including
(01:06):
college football. So if you're a fan, there might
be something in this episode just for you.
Ted Lasso and why some of the things we learned in school.
Hello. Y equals MX plus B might not
have been all that practical after all.
If you've ever questioned traditional pathways to
education, wondered how AI will shape the future of learning, or
(01:29):
just one inspiration from a leader who's walked the walk,
this episode is packed with insights you'll watch and take
notes on. Let's get going.
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Go to www.icepringsolutions.com to learn more about us, download
(02:37):
our resources, and connect. Hello everyone, and welcome to
another fabulous episode of Add Up LND.
My name is Holly Owens and I'm your host and I am super excited
today because I have Andy Sheen,the Cielo of Penn Foster group
here on the show with me. Andy, welcome on in.
(02:59):
Thanks, Holly. I'm excited to be here.
And if you're watching on video,you can see the believe behind
Andy, the Ted last I reference. We love that, we love that.
And Andy, before we get started,I want to say I kind of stalked
your LinkedIn profile. So I know you spent a lot of
time at Penn State. So are you a huge Penn State
fan? Any football things like you
watch it? I love college game day.
(03:20):
I love, so I love college football.
I definitely love Penn State. And I did.
I was I taught a program there for online learning leaders over
4 years so the campus there is amazing.
But I have to say like I'm a seeyou Buffs fan by heart.
Oh, I got it. Yeah, I have a no, don't hate it
all. I just all around and we could
talk about this is not what thisepisode is about.
(03:42):
I love college football. I sit down 9 O clock every
Saturday, religiously watch gameday, watch coach, watch Coach
Gorso's final. You know, thing that was sad,
but you know, anyways, let's getlet's get into you.
Let's talk about you, Andy. We can talk about college
football on our time, but I I just wanted to share that
passion with you. So tell us about your story.
(04:02):
How did you become the CLO of Penn Foster group?
Tell us all about it. Yeah, it's been, it's been a
wild ride. So I, I really started out
wanting to be a teacher for at risk youth and I, I began there.
I was a teacher at a place called the Praxis continuation
high school and Abraxas literally means second chance.
(04:23):
And I fell in love, love with it.
I spent a couple years there andbut I couldn't afford actually,
I just got out of my doctoral program and I couldn't afford to
pay my student loans. And so I worked that night at a
university. I threw like a grant in which we
were, we did a bunch of stuff with technology, but one of the
things we did is we recorded instructors teaching difficult
(04:47):
lessons. And then students who are able,
especially students who had cometo this university with like
English as a second language could listen to these difficult
concepts through this lecture and like pause it, watch it five
times again and sure, what a dramatic impact on learning.
So for me, that was like a big aha, like, wow, like technology
could potentially transform education if we do it right.
(05:08):
And so I continued that work andit's like, feels like this crazy
roller coaster ride. But somehow I went from that to
like working at the district office, leading online learning
to being a professor, to being aDean for a College of education,
and then all the way to being a chief academic officer.
And before he came to the Penn Foster group, I was the chief
academic officer of the NationalUniversity System, just located
(05:32):
in in, in La Jolla, CA, which isbeautiful, by the way.
And I was really like, loved that job.
I was not looking, but I, I found Penn Foster through
recruiting agency that came after me.
And when I got to know their model, I just, there's something
about it that really drew me in.Like your intuition was like, I
have to go. There it was very powerful and
(05:53):
and and I you know, you may haveheard this probably, but like I,
I came from situational poverty growing up with my parents never
went and got a college education.
They both went to vocational schools and I, I saw my parents
in the Penn Foster model, you know, radically affordable,
flexible learning model, you know, tailoring primarily to
(06:14):
folks. You have, you know, working
adults. Maybe they're, they're, they're,
they've got children and it's very aligned to a direct career.
That was for me, that was the big unlock and why I felt kind
of called to it. So yadda, yadda, yadda.
I've been at Penn Foster Group for 4 1/2 years.
(06:36):
It's, it's been pretty amazing. I'm, I'm, I'm proud of the work
we're doing. That's fantastic.
And like I told you before we started recording, I see your
advertisements all over YouTube and like your marketing group is
doing a really great job. And you know, when you talk
about like that situational poverty, I have a similar
experience. My parents just finished high
school, you know, and I don't share a lot of personal stuff on
(06:58):
the podcast, but my, my dad was a drug addict and alcoholic.
He was pretty much absent for myentire life.
And, you know, it was drilled inme, and I'm sure a lot of the
listeners can relate that I was,school was my job and I was
going to go to college and I wasgoing to get degrees.
And that's what I was meant to do.
But you know, at this stage in my life, when you're approaching
(07:19):
like I'm a, I'm middle-aged and I know there's a lot of people
like with families and responsibilities.
It's like, you know, I, I hate to admit this, but I've been
kind of questioning the validityor the experience of my degrees
and how they related to what I'mdoing now.
More or less. I feel like I have those
degrees, but it really the experience in the industry is
(07:42):
what has really propelled me forward instead of just like
those pieces of paper. Number one, people's never asked
me to see them, them, they're ontheir frames #2 it, you know, I
love what you're saying about that direct connection to the
career because I think that's something higher education is
definitely still missing the ball on when it comes to helping
(08:05):
their students. Like I have stay alone debt and
I may have been able to have a different experience if
something like Penn Foster Groupexisted back then.
Yeah. So this is really, this is
powerful. So I think, Holly, if you're,
you know, an 18 to like 22 year old and part of going to college
(08:26):
for you is growing up right and and you wanna and and you have.
I wasn't a partier at all. I went.
To Orioles. Games.
I went to Orioles games, $5 Fridays down in Baltimore, I
went to NBC. That's what I did.
Yeah, right. And yeah, and, but, but you
also, especially in today's college reality, like you also
have to have some depending on where you go.
(08:47):
But generally speaking, you, you, you're gonna either go into
debt or you're gonna have parents who, who have the
financial means to support you do that.
But I think I do think there's something about kind of being in
the college environment and growing up and having that
experience that has value. It does.
However, when you look at the majority of, of folks these days
(09:11):
that are going back and looking to upscale, looking to more
finely tuned a career path, that's a very different type of
student. And, and I, and I think that's
why Penn Foster and others like us are part of these market
shifters. We're figuring out how to do
more kind of quick upskilling. I think affordability is key.
(09:35):
And I think direct to career, right, like versus I spent two
years basically an extension of high school with general
education pro and, and never really learned anything about
the actual job that I wanted to do like that.
That whole space needs reimagining, especially for a
generation of adults that that are looking for something very
(09:58):
different. Yeah, 100% agree with you.
And I think like, you know, if Ihave a younger sister who's a
junior in high school and she istelling me already she's like
I'm going to stay here. I'm in Wilmington, they live in
Myrtle Beach, SC I'm going to stay here for two years and I
wish I would have done this and do my GFRS here and then go to
the four year institution. So that's really smart
(10:19):
financially, but also smart like, you know, she, she can
still have her freedom, things like that.
But I love the fact that, you know, kids nowadays are really
thinking it through like us was like, this is what you're doing.
No matter what, like you, you don't have a choice.
Like it was college for me or nothing.
According to my my grandparents,that was it.
(10:39):
That was. It that after high school comes
college and and and and listen like I'm I'm such a big fan of
of just learning in general. And so I am in no way advocating
to not go to college. Me.
Either I'm just sharing my story.
But it's a great story and I andI think for a lot of kids,
Community College makes a ton ofsense.
(11:00):
I think for a lot of kids, thereneeds to be an adults
especially, there needs to just be alternative pathways.
That's all we're really saying. We we need to have a anti
one-size-fits-all model. And I, I believe strongly that
we're beginning to see that become increasingly more
accepted. Yeah, well, tell us about PIM
Foster Group. I know we've gotten into a
little bit, but tell us all about it and how you're helping
(11:22):
people and the different, the connections to careers and skill
building and all those differentthings that tell the listeners
who have never heard of it. If you're watching YouTube,
you're gonna hear. If you're watching TV, you're
gonna hear a bit. Tell us all about it so that
they can get get all the deets. Yeah.
So Holly though, but it's interesting that that you're and
(11:42):
watching YouTube and you're seeing it.
But, but prior to when I joined Penn Foster, I didn't know who
they were. I've heard of it, but it's just
like I didn't know exactly what it was.
And so like, honestly, like that's one of my, my goal.
Obviously the marketing team is doing a great job in their
world, but part, part of my job is to do stuff like we're doing
is to get out there and tell thePenn Foster story.
It's a, it's a good story to tell.
(12:04):
So who's, who's Penn Foster? So we are a, a career, a college
and a high school. I'd argue high school is sort of
our, our flagship. We're we're arguing one of the
largest high schools in, in America.
I think the key to the Penn Foster group writ large is, is,
and I described it as like breaking the iron triangle.
First of all, like they're radically affordable.
(12:25):
And by radical, I mean there's no student loan debt.
We don't, we don't do title for loans.
It's a it's a there's various payment options, but a lot of
students either pay upfront or it's a monthly payment.
And if you think about that, if you're paying monthly and you're
a working adult and you're not necessarily in like economic
prosperity, like it's radically affordable.
So that's like one key pillar. I think the second is it's, it
(12:47):
really is. It's, it's, it's accessible.
We we welcome all we want to serve all, all students.
And then it, what I've been tasked with, mandated with is
quality. We, we want you to have a, a
real learning experience. And to your, your point, you
mentioned that that isn't just like abstract.
We want you to have a learning experience that's directly
(13:09):
aligned with the job you want. And part of Penn Foster's adding
genius to their portfolio is, istheir certificates and degree
programs are very career aligned.
So it's vet tech, it's, you know, it's medical billing and
coding. It's, it's a, it's HVAC, it's
plumbing, right? It's, it's very clear at the end
(13:30):
of your degree or certificate what you're going to do with
that. And so the learning therefore,
and this is where I think we really get into like the quality
component is very aligned to that specific, right?
What are you going to do on day one of your job?
And how do we ensure that you'reequipped to do that?
But I think makes the experiencevery relative.
So there's 300,000 students at, at Penn Foster.
(13:51):
It's very large, but I would saylike career alignment, radical
affordability and then quality Ithink are like the things that
that I feel like we've sort of obsessing about.
Yeah, you really, you know, I worked at Amazon for a while
obsessing about what the customer needs and the personal
personalization of that and the learner.
(14:12):
Back when I was in high school, we had clusters they were just
starting like focusing in on like the four year institution.
If you were going into say a trade and things like that.
It really does help people like kind of, I don't want to say
push out the noise or push out the BS, but you really are
focused on what you're going to do.
And I think part I'm relating this a lot to learning and
(14:35):
development, like motivating adult learners is really the
application piece. And often times when you're in
some of these classes, like I just want to know, Andy, how
many times maybe you have, maybeyou're a math person.
How many times have you used Y equals MX plus B, the slope
intercept formula. I've never used it in my life.
I've only talked about it in like LinkedIn post and on the
(14:58):
show. And I'm just like, why did I
have to suffer through somethinglike that where it gave me a
bunch of anxiety and it really wasn't anything I was going to
be doing in my future, you know,kind of questioning the reasons
why that existed. And now from talking to you, I
feel like the learning journey for your quote UN quote
(15:18):
customers is super personalized,which is what we really need and
then super applicable to what they are actually going to be
doing. Yes.
Why I feel like I can talk to you forever, but can?
I I know. I can't help but just hit on a
point you said. So I got to tell this quick
story. When I was teaching at this
(15:39):
continuation high school, one oflike my first, I don't know what
you would call it like shocking moments was was, you know, I
taught entry level English, likesophomore, kind of maybe upper,
like lower level junior English.And the kids that I were was
working with. First of all, most of them are
reading it like a 7th or 8th grade level.
(16:01):
And the required curriculum was like Gilgamesh, like
Shakespeare. It it it's not that those that
those books are bad, right? It it's just that like, why is
that the required curriculum foreveryone?
And so like tossing that out andeven doing something simple is
bringing in like the outsiders or kite that connects with those
(16:25):
kids in a way than which they feel purpose and identity.
You know, it's like that Robin Williams Dead Poets Society kind
of stuff. And so I think on one hand we
need to like reimagine curriculum period in terms of
what we require. And your example is like why
does a non STEM major need to take algebra or geometry?
(16:46):
Yeah, I was a social studies teacher.
Real life applications, for example, it'd be great to know
something about the stock marketor interest rates for sure.
William Knowles but at this, buteven more so than that, like
beyond like reimagining what we require.
I I honestly think that we need to have more flexibility.
And this is where like pathways come in based on different
(17:07):
students, different learners whohave different career and and
educational goals and aspirations.
We got to get rid of like the one-size-fits-all.
Yeah, it's, it's, it's tough to do that though, you know, like
this, you know, there's a there's a Ted talk and I have to
go research it where it talks about this current education
system across the world was built for a society that a
(17:28):
culture that no longer exists. It's like everybody's learned
how to write a certain way. Everybody learned how to do this
a certain way. And now it's so diverse and we,
we have, you know, we could probably throw AI question into
the mix, like what is what is really happening?
Like why? You know, you're chief learning
officer and this may be a loadedquestion for you, but why are
(17:49):
people so afraid? I want to say it's out of fear
of letting go of the traditional.
Like that's one question I ask almost everyday.
I'm like, why do we continue to do?
Isn't the definition of insanitydoing the same thing over and
over again, expecting the same result, expecting different
results or whatever like that, and here we are?
(18:10):
It's a really good question. So though I do think, I think
part of it is the classic fear of change.
Yeah, I think for folks who havebeen, so I don't know, grown up
in the the educational system the way that it currently is,
especially those who've had success who are often in
positions of leadership in the educational system because it
(18:32):
work for them, it should work for everybody.
There's like all the classic stuff.
Yeah. I though think that the one of
the biggest challenges to it, and this is a debate me and my
best friend have all the time. He's Biven Sadler, if you're by
chance listening to this, I loveyou buddy, but I'm going to call
this out. We're going to tag him.
He's a professor at Southern Methodist University and we have
(18:53):
this, this debate all the time. Like he just really believes
with all his heart that all that, all that all students,
whatever, regardless of your ageor, or what pathway you're into,
should be exposed to a variety of different types of learning.
In the case that you might be exposed to something you never
knew that you were really passionate about and that we
(19:15):
should develop the whole person and we should, we should develop
like a breadth and the depth to their understanding and
knowledge and thinking. And, and so listen, like I think
that there's something to that argument.
Sure. I think there's something to
that perspective. But at the same time, when you
have absenteeism the way it is in high school, when you have as
(19:35):
many students either not going to college or dropping out and
going into great debt like you, you have to take a step back and
you have to reimagine it at least a little bit.
And, and, and I think I'm hopingthat you mentioned AI like I,
I'm hoping we're at this like moment of, of disruption on one
hand, but also incredible opportunity where we can do
(19:56):
that. We can say, well wait a second,
like maybe you shouldn't learn cursive.
Anymore in all my extra school like.
Maybe you should. My fiance can't read cursive.
I got trained on cursive and my fiance and he's like what did he
write? If you want to learn cursive
because you we. Are in different states like.
Yeah, like go, go for it. But but maybe we should start to
like cull some of that stuff out.
(20:17):
And I'm hopeful that we're goingto enter into this reimagining
phase. And it's, and it's optimistic
and it's a little bit dreamy andrainbows and puppy dogs, but I
sort of believe it. I I believe we're going to enter
into a reimagining. I believe, I hope so.
Yeah, I feel like AI is kind of not.
It's it's forcing her hand a little bit.
When I think about L&D and how Ithink about it as like a
(20:40):
collaborator, like as an instructional designer and as a
former educator, like how much time AI is saving me in the long
run doing these very mundane, cumbersome, repetitive factory
like tasks. So I want to know your
perspective, like how do you think, what do you think?
And you can also talk to about how Penn Foster Group is doing
(21:00):
with what they're doing with AI.How is it going to impact the
education landscape? And then, you know, ultimately,
like specifically how is it going to impact what are you all
doing? What is your, are you
recognizing AI? You know, there's like higher
education, public education systems are like, what's our
policy? They're struggling with that.
So I would love to hear some of your thoughts about that.
(21:20):
Yeah, there's a lot. I'd say 1 is we are, we are
taking it very seriously. It is a huge part of our
strategic direction and focus. My boss who's our Chief product
officer, Tais Lyro joined recently.
She was the former head of AI atSend Gauge.
And so like we, we, we're, we brought in some, some real
(21:41):
talent. I mean, we could talk.
There's so much going on with AIthat like it's sort of like an
ocean of stuff to talk about. I would just like, I'd say
there's three things that I think we're obsessing about. 1
is we want our students to be AIliterate.
Like that is that is critical. I think we missed the boat with
digital literacy. And like a simple example is
(22:03):
like if you, if you surveyed like, you know, 1000 kids in
high school and said, tell me how search engine works.
I don't think that they understand so much of it is paid
for. This just simple example like
there's some we're not, but like, so I think we kind of
missed the boat there. We shouldn't miss the boat with
AI literacy. We need the students to have a
basic understanding of like what's behind the veil and how
(22:24):
it works. They need to have some kind of
like bias or BS detector as theygo in.
And, and, and then to your point, like they should know how
to use it to be more efficient and more productive at whatever
it is that they're doing and that they should be doing that
in a way that's like ethical andappropriate.
So students need to be AI literate.
(22:45):
I, I think that's like one key focus.
The second thing that, that we, we believe is that this
opportunity to meet students at their point of need when they
need academic help in part it's human students.
Students sometimes need to talk to another caring, empathetic
human. But when you have 300,000
students and they're studying atnight and weekends, like the
(23:06):
potential to have a generative AI academic tutor that's
monitored and supplemented by a human, I think is a major unlock
and I think enables that meet students at their point of need.
So like that's to leveraging AI to offer more personalized point
of need support. And then three, which I think 1
and 2 are incredibly important, but in some ways I think 3 is
(23:27):
the most important, which is forso long now, especially if
you're on here and you're LMD leader, you know, this creating
especially online content, quality online content is very
expensive and takes a long time.And if you, you can use AII
don't know, even to reduce cost and time by by 50%, which I
(23:48):
think is very doable, especiallyif you have a, a, a, a
pedagogical framework for what quality looks like.
That's a big deal. And so, you know, if you can
teach students to be illiterate,if you can meet them at their
point of need with support, and if you can create content
better, faster, cheaper, those are pretty transformational.
(24:09):
You know what I mean? Impact.
Yeah, 100%. And AI.
So there. There's more that we're up to,
but those are the three that I sort of obsessed with.
I love that. And I think I think those are
all very, very true. And I think a lot of
instructional designers or instructional coaches, whoever
would agree with you in in that aspect, because I remember when
I worked at Amazon, we were creating these simulations.
(24:31):
They were fantastic. They were for customer care
agents and they would just clickthrough and it was, they were in
the real life like simulation ofit.
But it took us like 370 hours tocreate like a 10 minute
training. It's like really unbalanced
there and AI hadn't it was just coming out and you know, and
(24:52):
things like that. But you know, thinking about
those different things might making, you know, things more
equitable or like saving time, saving money, which all people
want to do. We could definitely go in to
more of this stuff. But as we're wrapping up the
episode here, we as I told you at the beginning, we have tons
of people who are in the LND space.
We have people wanting to jump into the LND space.
(25:13):
They may want to, you know, at some point be a CLO or Cao.
They're just looking, you know, there's a lot of transitioning
teachers that listen to the podcast and they're just looking
for takeaways. Like if you could give people
that are listening three pieces of advice, how you got to the
point where you are, what would you tell them?
Kind of like telling your younger self, if what I if I
(25:34):
knew what now, then what I knew now, what would you tell
yourself? That's funny.
Like it's so random, but one of the funny thoughts that pops in
my head is like, not what I would tell myself.
Would like if like somebody thathas to work with me, they'd be
like tell Andy not to open the next candy bar until he finishes
the first one. That's probably.
(25:55):
It. So.
So I, I think if, if, if go backkind of going back to like the
rule of three, like what were the three things that I would
tell somebody like #1 which I would argue is the maybe the
most important is in this space,you have to have like, I'll call
it an expertise when it comes tothe learning sciences.
(26:18):
There's an art to teaching and learning, no doubt, but there is
also a science. And I think especially in this
world of big data and being ableto test and iterate and develop
like efficacy, especially withindifferent populations and
different delivery models like that is key.
You, you, you should have a strong expertise in the learning
(26:41):
sciences. You should know Wanger and Mayer
and you should know Seymour Popper, and you should write
like you should have an expertise in the learning
sciences. That's like that to me.
That's like #1 I would say #2 isthis is going to sound like a
little like Hokey or something, but like I would say, never stop
being curious. You know, curiosity is, is so
(27:05):
important. Be curious, be a learner.
Always be hungry for more. You never get to this point
where you get a certificate in the mail and you're like, you're
done. You're done learning.
Right, right. The brain doesn't have a memory
storage limit. I mean, we forget things
obviously. Short term memory limit, yeah,
but it doesn't have a storage limit, right?
Right. Yeah.
(27:26):
So be like constantly curious. I think that's number two.
And, and then #3 would I would say, and this is I think what,
what I feel like at Penn Foster Group, you know, just like,
what's the number one thing whenI'm interviewing people that
want to work here that that I really, really, really think
about and care about is like, you got to be like obsessed with
(27:46):
making a positive impact. Like that has got to be your
true north. You know, you're, you're going
to get hit with, you know, so much stuff on the job and
challenges and pressures at the end of the day, like what is
your true north? Like, how are you ultimately
measuring yourself? It's got to be an fundamentally
altruistic, right? Desire to make an impact on
(28:07):
people in a positive way. I think that to me is 3.
They're all important, right? So there's one that's more
important than the other. And they all go together.
They definitely all flow together.
And I love that you said that positive stuff because I have a
lot of criticism of education, but the whole reason why I'm
sitting where I'm sitting is because when I was in elementary
school, I was labeled a slow learner and then I did terrible
(28:28):
in the SAT. So I wasn't going to be
successful. And I'm like, those things
didn't those don't matter as much as the the motivation, like
the, you know, the wanting to help people.
Like if people were just, if theeducation system wasn't quote,
UN quote, we say broken, like ifpeople were willing to help
those students, you know, maybe that are neurodivergent or just
(28:49):
like I don't like lectures. I'm sure a lot of listeners
don't like lectures. Like I needed some sort of other
modality to learn and and thrivein.
So just recognizing those thingslike the positivity, like that's
why I became a teacher, that's why I'm doing what I'm doing, is
that is it's time to give back. It's time to say that you know
what, even though these things are coming at you and they may
(29:12):
be negative or seen as challenges, you can do these
things. There are there are
opportunities like at Penn Foster and you have the option
to do that. Like you're just not stuck.
You're not stuck. You can get unstuck.
No doubt. And how I love, I love hearing
your story. Like there's so many people out
there like like, like me, like you who have have struggled, you
(29:33):
know, early in our educational experiences and yet here we are.
The labels, yeah. Yeah, and and here we are.
And like, I think so much of what I love about your podcast
and other podcasts, like it is like helping people develop,
helping people be the best version of themselves, but
ultimately so they can help people like you and I like lift
themselves up and and be where we are.
So that's great. Thanks for telling your.
(29:54):
Story, of course. Well, Andy, it's been a blast,
but it's gone by really super fast.
It has. Next time, have me back.
Let's just talk football the whole time.
Yeah, we should just talk football.
I mean, I would, I would definitely love to talk about,
you know, the Manning's perform.Let's go.
I live in Dallas, so we. Oh yeah, I'm a Cowboys fan.
(30:18):
So we could talk. We could talk about that.
We could talk about I watch the Netflix special with all the
Dallas Cowboys stuff and Jerry Jones and how like, Oh yeah, he
just made himself look like he'she's Golden Boy.
So anyways, yeah, we definitely need to do like a football slash
LND academic related episode. But I can't thank you enough for
coming on the show and talking to me and sharing your
(30:41):
experience and telling us about Penn Foster group.
Everything's going to be in the show notes where you can connect
with Andy and learn more about Penn Foster group.
Encourage you to go there. Check it out.
So thanks so much for coming on again, Andy.
Thanks Holly. Appreciate you.
Thanks for spending a few minutes with.
Holly, she knows your podcast queue is packed.
If today's episode sparked. An idea?
(31:02):
Or gave you that? Extra nudge of confidence tap.
Follow or subscribe in your favorite app.
So you never miss an. Episode of Ed Up L.
And D dropping a quick rating. Or review helps more educators.
And learning. Pros discover the show, too.
Want to keep the conversation going?
Connect with Holly on LinkedIn and share your biggest.
Take away. She reads every message.
(31:24):
Until next time, keep learning, keep leading, and keep believing
in your own story. Talk soon.
Hi, we're ispring, an international team of e-learning
enthusiasts who help more than 60,000 clients across the globe
succeed with better online learning.
Our two flagship solutions are ispring Suite and ispring Learn
LMS.
Welcome back to another rivetingepisode of Add Up L&D.
I'm your host, Holly Owens, and today's conversation is 1 you
don't want to miss. I'm joined by Andy Sheen, the
Chief Learning Officer of Penn Foster Group, an organization
that's redefining what accessible, affordable, and
(00:22):
career aligned education really looks like.
In this episode, Andy shares hisjourney from teaching at risk
youth to leading learning innovation from one of the
largest high schools in the country.
We dig into the aha moments thatshowed him the transform the
transformative power of technology and education.
(00:44):
We talk about why higher Ed needs to reimagine its
one-size-fits-all approach in K to 12 too, and explore how Penn
Foster Group is helping working adults and career changers build
real world skills without the crushing burden of student debt.
We even got into some fun, some very fun side topics, including
(01:06):
college football. So if you're a fan, there might
be something in this episode just for you.
Ted Lasso and why some of the things we learned in school.
Hello. Y equals MX plus B might not
have been all that practical after all.
If you've ever questioned traditional pathways to
education, wondered how AI will shape the future of learning, or
(01:29):
just one inspiration from a leader who's walked the walk,
this episode is packed with insights you'll watch and take
notes on. Let's get going.
Hi, we're ispring, an international team of e-learning
enthusiasts who help more than 60,000 clients across the globe
succeed with better online learning.
(01:52):
Our two flagship solutions are ispring Suite and ispring Learn
LMS. Ispring Suite is an intuitive,
all in one authoring tool for creating engaging e-learning
content, and ispringlearn is an innovative online training
platform for onboarding, upskilling, and certifying your
teams. We also provide tons of free
(02:14):
resources for aspiring and experienced e-learning
professionals, conduct weekly webinars with top industry
experts, and organize annual e-learning conferences,
challenges, and championships. We'd be happy to get to know you
and pick a solution that fits your needs best.
Go to www.icepringsolutions.com to learn more about us, download
(02:37):
our resources, and connect. Hello everyone, and welcome to
another fabulous episode of Add Up LND.
My name is Holly Owens and I'm your host and I am super excited
today because I have Andy Sheen,the Cielo of Penn Foster group
here on the show with me. Andy, welcome on in.
(02:59):
Thanks, Holly. I'm excited to be here.
And if you're watching on video,you can see the believe behind
Andy, the Ted last I reference. We love that, we love that.
And Andy, before we get started,I want to say I kind of stalked
your LinkedIn profile. So I know you spent a lot of
time at Penn State. So are you a huge Penn State
fan? Any football things like you
watch it? I love college game day.
(03:20):
I love, so I love college football.
I definitely love Penn State. And I did.
I was I taught a program there for online learning leaders over
4 years so the campus there is amazing.
But I have to say like I'm a seeyou Buffs fan by heart.
Oh, I got it. Yeah, I have a no, don't hate it
all. I just all around and we could
talk about this is not what thisepisode is about.
(03:42):
I love college football. I sit down 9 O clock every
Saturday, religiously watch gameday, watch coach, watch Coach
Gorso's final. You know, thing that was sad,
but you know, anyways, let's getlet's get into you.
Let's talk about you, Andy. We can talk about college
football on our time, but I I just wanted to share that
passion with you. So tell us about your story.
(04:02):
How did you become the CLO of Penn Foster group?
Tell us all about it. Yeah, it's been, it's been a
wild ride. So I, I really started out
wanting to be a teacher for at risk youth and I, I began there.
I was a teacher at a place called the Praxis continuation
high school and Abraxas literally means second chance.
(04:23):
And I fell in love, love with it.
I spent a couple years there andbut I couldn't afford actually,
I just got out of my doctoral program and I couldn't afford to
pay my student loans. And so I worked that night at a
university. I threw like a grant in which we
were, we did a bunch of stuff with technology, but one of the
things we did is we recorded instructors teaching difficult
(04:47):
lessons. And then students who are able,
especially students who had cometo this university with like
English as a second language could listen to these difficult
concepts through this lecture and like pause it, watch it five
times again and sure, what a dramatic impact on learning.
So for me, that was like a big aha, like, wow, like technology
could potentially transform education if we do it right.
(05:08):
And so I continued that work andit's like, feels like this crazy
roller coaster ride. But somehow I went from that to
like working at the district office, leading online learning
to being a professor, to being aDean for a College of education,
and then all the way to being a chief academic officer.
And before he came to the Penn Foster group, I was the chief
academic officer of the NationalUniversity System, just located
(05:32):
in in, in La Jolla, CA, which isbeautiful, by the way.
And I was really like, loved that job.
I was not looking, but I, I found Penn Foster through
recruiting agency that came after me.
And when I got to know their model, I just, there's something
about it that really drew me in.Like your intuition was like, I
have to go. There it was very powerful and
(05:53):
and and I you know, you may haveheard this probably, but like I,
I came from situational poverty growing up with my parents never
went and got a college education.
They both went to vocational schools and I, I saw my parents
in the Penn Foster model, you know, radically affordable,
flexible learning model, you know, tailoring primarily to
(06:14):
folks. You have, you know, working
adults. Maybe they're, they're, they're,
they've got children and it's very aligned to a direct career.
That was for me, that was the big unlock and why I felt kind
of called to it. So yadda, yadda, yadda.
I've been at Penn Foster Group for 4 1/2 years.
(06:36):
It's, it's been pretty amazing. I'm, I'm, I'm proud of the work
we're doing. That's fantastic.
And like I told you before we started recording, I see your
advertisements all over YouTube and like your marketing group is
doing a really great job. And you know, when you talk
about like that situational poverty, I have a similar
experience. My parents just finished high
school, you know, and I don't share a lot of personal stuff on
(06:58):
the podcast, but my, my dad was a drug addict and alcoholic.
He was pretty much absent for myentire life.
And, you know, it was drilled inme, and I'm sure a lot of the
listeners can relate that I was,school was my job and I was
going to go to college and I wasgoing to get degrees.
And that's what I was meant to do.
But you know, at this stage in my life, when you're approaching
(07:19):
like I'm a, I'm middle-aged and I know there's a lot of people
like with families and responsibilities.
It's like, you know, I, I hate to admit this, but I've been
kind of questioning the validityor the experience of my degrees
and how they related to what I'mdoing now.
More or less. I feel like I have those
degrees, but it really the experience in the industry is
(07:42):
what has really propelled me forward instead of just like
those pieces of paper. Number one, people's never asked
me to see them, them, they're ontheir frames #2 it, you know, I
love what you're saying about that direct connection to the
career because I think that's something higher education is
definitely still missing the ball on when it comes to helping
(08:05):
their students. Like I have stay alone debt and
I may have been able to have a different experience if
something like Penn Foster Groupexisted back then.
Yeah. So this is really, this is
powerful. So I think, Holly, if you're,
you know, an 18 to like 22 year old and part of going to college
(08:26):
for you is growing up right and and you wanna and and you have.
I wasn't a partier at all. I went.
To Orioles. Games.
I went to Orioles games, $5 Fridays down in Baltimore, I
went to NBC. That's what I did.
Yeah, right. And yeah, and, but, but you
also, especially in today's college reality, like you also
have to have some depending on where you go.
(08:47):
But generally speaking, you, you, you're gonna either go into
debt or you're gonna have parents who, who have the
financial means to support you do that.
But I think I do think there's something about kind of being in
the college environment and growing up and having that
experience that has value. It does.
However, when you look at the majority of, of folks these days
(09:11):
that are going back and looking to upscale, looking to more
finely tuned a career path, that's a very different type of
student. And, and I, and I think that's
why Penn Foster and others like us are part of these market
shifters. We're figuring out how to do
more kind of quick upskilling. I think affordability is key.
(09:35):
And I think direct to career, right, like versus I spent two
years basically an extension of high school with general
education pro and, and never really learned anything about
the actual job that I wanted to do like that.
That whole space needs reimagining, especially for a
generation of adults that that are looking for something very
(09:58):
different. Yeah, 100% agree with you.
And I think like, you know, if Ihave a younger sister who's a
junior in high school and she istelling me already she's like
I'm going to stay here. I'm in Wilmington, they live in
Myrtle Beach, SC I'm going to stay here for two years and I
wish I would have done this and do my GFRS here and then go to
the four year institution. So that's really smart
(10:19):
financially, but also smart like, you know, she, she can
still have her freedom, things like that.
But I love the fact that, you know, kids nowadays are really
thinking it through like us was like, this is what you're doing.
No matter what, like you, you don't have a choice.
Like it was college for me or nothing.
According to my my grandparents,that was it.
(10:39):
That was. It that after high school comes
college and and and and listen like I'm I'm such a big fan of
of just learning in general. And so I am in no way advocating
to not go to college. Me.
Either I'm just sharing my story.
But it's a great story and I andI think for a lot of kids,
Community College makes a ton ofsense.
(11:00):
I think for a lot of kids, thereneeds to be an adults
especially, there needs to just be alternative pathways.
That's all we're really saying. We we need to have a anti
one-size-fits-all model. And I, I believe strongly that
we're beginning to see that become increasingly more
accepted. Yeah, well, tell us about PIM
Foster Group. I know we've gotten into a
little bit, but tell us all about it and how you're helping
(11:22):
people and the different, the connections to careers and skill
building and all those differentthings that tell the listeners
who have never heard of it. If you're watching YouTube,
you're gonna hear. If you're watching TV, you're
gonna hear a bit. Tell us all about it so that
they can get get all the deets. Yeah.
So Holly though, but it's interesting that that you're and
(11:42):
watching YouTube and you're seeing it.
But, but prior to when I joined Penn Foster, I didn't know who
they were. I've heard of it, but it's just
like I didn't know exactly what it was.
And so like, honestly, like that's one of my, my goal.
Obviously the marketing team is doing a great job in their
world, but part, part of my job is to do stuff like we're doing
is to get out there and tell thePenn Foster story.
It's a, it's a good story to tell.
(12:04):
So who's, who's Penn Foster? So we are a, a career, a college
and a high school. I'd argue high school is sort of
our, our flagship. We're we're arguing one of the
largest high schools in, in America.
I think the key to the Penn Foster group writ large is, is,
and I described it as like breaking the iron triangle.
First of all, like they're radically affordable.
(12:25):
And by radical, I mean there's no student loan debt.
We don't, we don't do title for loans.
It's a it's a there's various payment options, but a lot of
students either pay upfront or it's a monthly payment.
And if you think about that, if you're paying monthly and you're
a working adult and you're not necessarily in like economic
prosperity, like it's radically affordable.
So that's like one key pillar. I think the second is it's, it
(12:47):
really is. It's, it's, it's accessible.
We we welcome all we want to serve all, all students.
And then it, what I've been tasked with, mandated with is
quality. We, we want you to have a, a
real learning experience. And to your, your point, you
mentioned that that isn't just like abstract.
We want you to have a learning experience that's directly
(13:09):
aligned with the job you want. And part of Penn Foster's adding
genius to their portfolio is, istheir certificates and degree
programs are very career aligned.
So it's vet tech, it's, you know, it's medical billing and
coding. It's, it's a, it's HVAC, it's
plumbing, right? It's, it's very clear at the end
(13:30):
of your degree or certificate what you're going to do with
that. And so the learning therefore,
and this is where I think we really get into like the quality
component is very aligned to that specific, right?
What are you going to do on day one of your job?
And how do we ensure that you'reequipped to do that?
But I think makes the experiencevery relative.
So there's 300,000 students at, at Penn Foster.
(13:51):
It's very large, but I would saylike career alignment, radical
affordability and then quality Ithink are like the things that
that I feel like we've sort of obsessing about.
Yeah, you really, you know, I worked at Amazon for a while
obsessing about what the customer needs and the personal
personalization of that and the learner.
(14:12):
Back when I was in high school, we had clusters they were just
starting like focusing in on like the four year institution.
If you were going into say a trade and things like that.
It really does help people like kind of, I don't want to say
push out the noise or push out the BS, but you really are
focused on what you're going to do.
And I think part I'm relating this a lot to learning and
(14:35):
development, like motivating adult learners is really the
application piece. And often times when you're in
some of these classes, like I just want to know, Andy, how
many times maybe you have, maybeyou're a math person.
How many times have you used Y equals MX plus B, the slope
intercept formula. I've never used it in my life.
I've only talked about it in like LinkedIn post and on the
(14:58):
show. And I'm just like, why did I
have to suffer through somethinglike that where it gave me a
bunch of anxiety and it really wasn't anything I was going to
be doing in my future, you know,kind of questioning the reasons
why that existed. And now from talking to you, I
feel like the learning journey for your quote UN quote
(15:18):
customers is super personalized,which is what we really need and
then super applicable to what they are actually going to be
doing. Yes.
Why I feel like I can talk to you forever, but can?
I I know. I can't help but just hit on a
point you said. So I got to tell this quick
story. When I was teaching at this
(15:39):
continuation high school, one oflike my first, I don't know what
you would call it like shocking moments was was, you know, I
taught entry level English, likesophomore, kind of maybe upper,
like lower level junior English.And the kids that I were was
working with. First of all, most of them are
reading it like a 7th or 8th grade level.
(16:01):
And the required curriculum was like Gilgamesh, like
Shakespeare. It it it's not that those that
those books are bad, right? It it's just that like, why is
that the required curriculum foreveryone?
And so like tossing that out andeven doing something simple is
bringing in like the outsiders or kite that connects with those
(16:25):
kids in a way than which they feel purpose and identity.
You know, it's like that Robin Williams Dead Poets Society kind
of stuff. And so I think on one hand we
need to like reimagine curriculum period in terms of
what we require. And your example is like why
does a non STEM major need to take algebra or geometry?
(16:46):
Yeah, I was a social studies teacher.
Real life applications, for example, it'd be great to know
something about the stock marketor interest rates for sure.
William Knowles but at this, buteven more so than that, like
beyond like reimagining what we require.
I I honestly think that we need to have more flexibility.
And this is where like pathways come in based on different
(17:07):
students, different learners whohave different career and and
educational goals and aspirations.
We got to get rid of like the one-size-fits-all.
Yeah, it's, it's, it's tough to do that though, you know, like
this, you know, there's a there's a Ted talk and I have to
go research it where it talks about this current education
system across the world was built for a society that a
(17:28):
culture that no longer exists. It's like everybody's learned
how to write a certain way. Everybody learned how to do this
a certain way. And now it's so diverse and we,
we have, you know, we could probably throw AI question into
the mix, like what is what is really happening?
Like why? You know, you're chief learning
officer and this may be a loadedquestion for you, but why are
(17:49):
people so afraid? I want to say it's out of fear
of letting go of the traditional.
Like that's one question I ask almost everyday.
I'm like, why do we continue to do?
Isn't the definition of insanitydoing the same thing over and
over again, expecting the same result, expecting different
results or whatever like that, and here we are?
(18:10):
It's a really good question. So though I do think, I think
part of it is the classic fear of change.
Yeah, I think for folks who havebeen, so I don't know, grown up
in the the educational system the way that it currently is,
especially those who've had success who are often in
positions of leadership in the educational system because it
(18:32):
work for them, it should work for everybody.
There's like all the classic stuff.
Yeah. I though think that the one of
the biggest challenges to it, and this is a debate me and my
best friend have all the time. He's Biven Sadler, if you're by
chance listening to this, I loveyou buddy, but I'm going to call
this out. We're going to tag him.
He's a professor at Southern Methodist University and we have
(18:53):
this, this debate all the time. Like he just really believes
with all his heart that all that, all that all students,
whatever, regardless of your ageor, or what pathway you're into,
should be exposed to a variety of different types of learning.
In the case that you might be exposed to something you never
knew that you were really passionate about and that we
(19:15):
should develop the whole person and we should, we should develop
like a breadth and the depth to their understanding and
knowledge and thinking. And, and so listen, like I think
that there's something to that argument.
Sure. I think there's something to
that perspective. But at the same time, when you
have absenteeism the way it is in high school, when you have as
(19:35):
many students either not going to college or dropping out and
going into great debt like you, you have to take a step back and
you have to reimagine it at least a little bit.
And, and, and I think I'm hopingthat you mentioned AI like I,
I'm hoping we're at this like moment of, of disruption on one
hand, but also incredible opportunity where we can do
(19:56):
that. We can say, well wait a second,
like maybe you shouldn't learn cursive.
Anymore in all my extra school like.
Maybe you should. My fiance can't read cursive.
I got trained on cursive and my fiance and he's like what did he
write? If you want to learn cursive
because you we. Are in different states like.
Yeah, like go, go for it. But but maybe we should start to
like cull some of that stuff out.
(20:17):
And I'm hopeful that we're goingto enter into this reimagining
phase. And it's, and it's optimistic
and it's a little bit dreamy andrainbows and puppy dogs, but I
sort of believe it. I I believe we're going to enter
into a reimagining. I believe, I hope so.
Yeah, I feel like AI is kind of not.
It's it's forcing her hand a little bit.
When I think about L&D and how Ithink about it as like a
(20:40):
collaborator, like as an instructional designer and as a
former educator, like how much time AI is saving me in the long
run doing these very mundane, cumbersome, repetitive factory
like tasks. So I want to know your
perspective, like how do you think, what do you think?
And you can also talk to about how Penn Foster Group is doing
(21:00):
with what they're doing with AI.How is it going to impact the
education landscape? And then, you know, ultimately,
like specifically how is it going to impact what are you all
doing? What is your, are you
recognizing AI? You know, there's like higher
education, public education systems are like, what's our
policy? They're struggling with that.
So I would love to hear some of your thoughts about that.
(21:20):
Yeah, there's a lot. I'd say 1 is we are, we are
taking it very seriously. It is a huge part of our
strategic direction and focus. My boss who's our Chief product
officer, Tais Lyro joined recently.
She was the former head of AI atSend Gauge.
And so like we, we, we're, we brought in some, some real
(21:41):
talent. I mean, we could talk.
There's so much going on with AIthat like it's sort of like an
ocean of stuff to talk about. I would just like, I'd say
there's three things that I think we're obsessing about. 1
is we want our students to be AIliterate.
Like that is that is critical. I think we missed the boat with
digital literacy. And like a simple example is
(22:03):
like if you, if you surveyed like, you know, 1000 kids in
high school and said, tell me how search engine works.
I don't think that they understand so much of it is paid
for. This just simple example like
there's some we're not, but like, so I think we kind of
missed the boat there. We shouldn't miss the boat with
AI literacy. We need the students to have a
basic understanding of like what's behind the veil and how
(22:24):
it works. They need to have some kind of
like bias or BS detector as theygo in.
And, and, and then to your point, like they should know how
to use it to be more efficient and more productive at whatever
it is that they're doing and that they should be doing that
in a way that's like ethical andappropriate.
So students need to be AI literate.
(22:45):
I, I think that's like one key focus.
The second thing that, that we, we believe is that this
opportunity to meet students at their point of need when they
need academic help in part it's human students.
Students sometimes need to talk to another caring, empathetic
human. But when you have 300,000
students and they're studying atnight and weekends, like the
(23:06):
potential to have a generative AI academic tutor that's
monitored and supplemented by a human, I think is a major unlock
and I think enables that meet students at their point of need.
So like that's to leveraging AI to offer more personalized point
of need support. And then three, which I think 1
and 2 are incredibly important, but in some ways I think 3 is
(23:27):
the most important, which is forso long now, especially if
you're on here and you're LMD leader, you know, this creating
especially online content, quality online content is very
expensive and takes a long time.And if you, you can use AII
don't know, even to reduce cost and time by by 50%, which I
(23:48):
think is very doable, especiallyif you have a, a, a, a
pedagogical framework for what quality looks like.
That's a big deal. And so, you know, if you can
teach students to be illiterate,if you can meet them at their
point of need with support, and if you can create content
better, faster, cheaper, those are pretty transformational.
(24:09):
You know what I mean? Impact.
Yeah, 100%. And AI.
So there. There's more that we're up to,
but those are the three that I sort of obsessed with.
I love that. And I think I think those are
all very, very true. And I think a lot of
instructional designers or instructional coaches, whoever
would agree with you in in that aspect, because I remember when
I worked at Amazon, we were creating these simulations.
(24:31):
They were fantastic. They were for customer care
agents and they would just clickthrough and it was, they were in
the real life like simulation ofit.
But it took us like 370 hours tocreate like a 10 minute
training. It's like really unbalanced
there and AI hadn't it was just coming out and you know, and
(24:52):
things like that. But you know, thinking about
those different things might making, you know, things more
equitable or like saving time, saving money, which all people
want to do. We could definitely go in to
more of this stuff. But as we're wrapping up the
episode here, we as I told you at the beginning, we have tons
of people who are in the LND space.
We have people wanting to jump into the LND space.
(25:13):
They may want to, you know, at some point be a CLO or Cao.
They're just looking, you know, there's a lot of transitioning
teachers that listen to the podcast and they're just looking
for takeaways. Like if you could give people
that are listening three pieces of advice, how you got to the
point where you are, what would you tell them?
Kind of like telling your younger self, if what I if I
(25:34):
knew what now, then what I knew now, what would you tell
yourself? That's funny.
Like it's so random, but one of the funny thoughts that pops in
my head is like, not what I would tell myself.
Would like if like somebody thathas to work with me, they'd be
like tell Andy not to open the next candy bar until he finishes
the first one. That's probably.
(25:55):
It. So.
So I, I think if, if, if go backkind of going back to like the
rule of three, like what were the three things that I would
tell somebody like #1 which I would argue is the maybe the
most important is in this space,you have to have like, I'll call
it an expertise when it comes tothe learning sciences.
(26:18):
There's an art to teaching and learning, no doubt, but there is
also a science. And I think especially in this
world of big data and being ableto test and iterate and develop
like efficacy, especially withindifferent populations and
different delivery models like that is key.
You, you, you should have a strong expertise in the learning
(26:41):
sciences. You should know Wanger and Mayer
and you should know Seymour Popper, and you should write
like you should have an expertise in the learning
sciences. That's like that to me.
That's like #1 I would say #2 isthis is going to sound like a
little like Hokey or something, but like I would say, never stop
being curious. You know, curiosity is, is so
(27:05):
important. Be curious, be a learner.
Always be hungry for more. You never get to this point
where you get a certificate in the mail and you're like, you're
done. You're done learning.
Right, right. The brain doesn't have a memory
storage limit. I mean, we forget things
obviously. Short term memory limit, yeah,
but it doesn't have a storage limit, right?
Right. Yeah.
(27:26):
So be like constantly curious. I think that's number two.
And, and then #3 would I would say, and this is I think what,
what I feel like at Penn Foster Group, you know, just like,
what's the number one thing whenI'm interviewing people that
want to work here that that I really, really, really think
about and care about is like, you got to be like obsessed with
(27:46):
making a positive impact. Like that has got to be your
true north. You know, you're, you're going
to get hit with, you know, so much stuff on the job and
challenges and pressures at the end of the day, like what is
your true north? Like, how are you ultimately
measuring yourself? It's got to be an fundamentally
altruistic, right? Desire to make an impact on
(28:07):
people in a positive way. I think that to me is 3.
They're all important, right? So there's one that's more
important than the other. And they all go together.
They definitely all flow together.
And I love that you said that positive stuff because I have a
lot of criticism of education, but the whole reason why I'm
sitting where I'm sitting is because when I was in elementary
school, I was labeled a slow learner and then I did terrible
(28:28):
in the SAT. So I wasn't going to be
successful. And I'm like, those things
didn't those don't matter as much as the the motivation, like
the, you know, the wanting to help people.
Like if people were just, if theeducation system wasn't quote,
UN quote, we say broken, like ifpeople were willing to help
those students, you know, maybe that are neurodivergent or just
(28:49):
like I don't like lectures. I'm sure a lot of listeners
don't like lectures. Like I needed some sort of other
modality to learn and and thrivein.
So just recognizing those thingslike the positivity, like that's
why I became a teacher, that's why I'm doing what I'm doing, is
that is it's time to give back. It's time to say that you know
what, even though these things are coming at you and they may
(29:12):
be negative or seen as challenges, you can do these
things. There are there are
opportunities like at Penn Foster and you have the option
to do that. Like you're just not stuck.
You're not stuck. You can get unstuck.
No doubt. And how I love, I love hearing
your story. Like there's so many people out
there like like, like me, like you who have have struggled, you
(29:33):
know, early in our educational experiences and yet here we are.
The labels, yeah. Yeah, and and here we are.
And like, I think so much of what I love about your podcast
and other podcasts, like it is like helping people develop,
helping people be the best version of themselves, but
ultimately so they can help people like you and I like lift
themselves up and and be where we are.
So that's great. Thanks for telling your.
(29:54):
Story, of course. Well, Andy, it's been a blast,
but it's gone by really super fast.
It has. Next time, have me back.
Let's just talk football the whole time.
Yeah, we should just talk football.
I mean, I would, I would definitely love to talk about,
you know, the Manning's perform.Let's go.
I live in Dallas, so we. Oh yeah, I'm a Cowboys fan.
(30:18):
So we could talk. We could talk about that.
We could talk about I watch the Netflix special with all the
Dallas Cowboys stuff and Jerry Jones and how like, Oh yeah, he
just made himself look like he'she's Golden Boy.
So anyways, yeah, we definitely need to do like a football slash
LND academic related episode. But I can't thank you enough for
coming on the show and talking to me and sharing your
(30:41):
experience and telling us about Penn Foster group.
Everything's going to be in the show notes where you can connect
with Andy and learn more about Penn Foster group.
Encourage you to go there. Check it out.
So thanks so much for coming on again, Andy.
Thanks Holly. Appreciate you.
Thanks for spending a few minutes with.
Holly, she knows your podcast queue is packed.
If today's episode sparked. An idea?
(31:02):
Or gave you that? Extra nudge of confidence tap.
Follow or subscribe in your favorite app.
So you never miss an. Episode of Ed Up L.
And D dropping a quick rating. Or review helps more educators.
And learning. Pros discover the show, too.
Want to keep the conversation going?
Connect with Holly on LinkedIn and share your biggest.
Take away. She reads every message.
(31:24):
Until next time, keep learning, keep leading, and keep believing
in your own story. Talk soon.
Hi, we're ispring, an international team of e-learning
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