October 27, 2025 • 60 mins
In this engaging conversation, Holly Owens and Chelsea Maude Avirett discuss the evolving landscape of learning and development, particularly focusing on the interview process and job searching strategies. Holly shares her journey from teaching to instructional design, highlighting the importance of resources for job seekers. They explore trends in interviews, the impact of AI, and the differences between corporate and higher education interviews. Networking strategies and the significance of confidence in job searching are emphasized, encouraging listeners to value their experiences and create opportunities for themselves.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hi, we're ispring, an international team of e-learning
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Our two flagship solutions are ispring Suite and ispring Learn
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(00:23):
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(00:43):
challenges, and championships. We'd be happy to get to know you
and pick a solution that fits your needs best.
Go to www.icepringsolutions.com to learn more about us, download
our resources, and connect. Welcome, welcome.
We are going to give you a few minutes to trickle in and feel
(01:08):
free to throw in the chat where you're coming from.
Nice and easy and it's it's lovely to hear, hear all the
different places that we're in. I'm in Maine and Holly, you're
down. You're down South.
Yes, I'm in Wilmington, NC. Oh, we got to Boston.
That's close Maryland, Portland,OR I'm close to the other
(01:32):
Portland, which gets confusing you.
Know what's funny is in North Carolina, we have a
Jacksonville. When I first knew Tara was like,
I'm like, that's in Florida and there's a Jacksonville.
I learned recently there's a Jacksonville, GA.
Is there really. Yeah, I should know about that.
In high school, I had to memorize all of the counties.
All right, So I think this is a good time to get started.
(01:58):
So, folks, thank you so much forjoining us.
Whether it's your afternoon or whether or not you're nibbling
on dinner while you while you listen to us, we appreciate your
attendance. And I also really appreciate
Holly for joining us. I'm very much looking forward to
this conversation. If you follow either of us, you
know, we often get together and have these little conversations,
(02:20):
but usually Holly's interviewingme and she always does something
during these conversations. And I'm like, I want to know
more. I want to know more.
So this is the I want to know more.
And we're going to let Holly really take the stage here and
share everything that she knows about interviewing and learning
and development. And this is something that she's
done over the course of her career, but it's also something
(02:42):
that she's done recently. So she's got some really great
insights into what's going on right now, not just in learning
development overall, because of course she runs a great podcast
and so forth and keeps up with the industry, but really what's
going on in the interview process specifically.
So I didn't introduce myself. If you don't know me, I am
Chelsea Averett and I'm the founder of Skip's job board.
(03:06):
And what I do is share jobs thatare in what I call education
adjacent fields or adjacent fields.
So education, instructional design, learning and
development, anything that's really looking for the skill set
that we have of training or teaching other people.
And Holly is going to introduce herself and then we're going to
(03:28):
get started with some questions.The way we'll run the session is
I'll ask some questions. And if you guys want to hear any
follow up as Holly is answering the questions, feel free to
throw it in the chat. I'll be monitoring the chat and
then we'll pull those questions up.
And then we'll also have some time for some questions from you
guys at the end of the session as well.
(03:50):
So we're going to keep it prettyfluid, a conversation between
Holly and me and also between you guys in the chat and all of
us. Let's see Holly, go ahead.
Hi everyone, I appreciate you joining me, You know, especially
those on the East Coast. It's dinner time.
Thank you so much for coming on and Chelsea for inviting me on.
I really think this, this particular webinar lends itself
to being very discussion, focus,active focus on the audience
(04:14):
because we want you to be able to ask questions that have been
in your head or you've just things you've experienced
recently like top of mind for you.
For those of you who don't know me, my name is Holly Owens.
I am currently a freelance instructional designer.
I have a couple different contracts that I've been working
on, but I started my career out as a high school teacher, which
(04:34):
I know there are some of you in the audience who are looking to
be former teachers like myself. I did it before it was the cool
thing to do back in 2011. And then I moved into higher
education, instructional design,instructional technology, which
eventually evolved into all instructional design.
Then I hopped into some corporate, went to Amazon.
(04:55):
And then I most recently I did, which is not really super
related, but it is related. I did some marketing director of
marketing at Yellow Dick, which is an Ed tech company.
So every part of the sector you can think of I've probably been
a part of or I just, you know, I've worked somewhere closely
with someone who's a part, a part of every sector and
learning and development. And I was really excited when
(05:17):
Chelsea asked me to come and answer some of the, the point of
questions that you have. And, you know, maybe alleviate,
maybe be a little bit of a therapist and alleviate some of
the stress or the anxiety that goes along with this whole
application process. And when it comes to especially
for those transition into different careers.
So I'm really excited to jump into all that.
(05:39):
Cool before we ask questions, doyou wanna talk a little bit
about you have a lot of resources for people and do you
wanna share some of those and I've got as we.
Yeah. So I've been doing some thinking
about like how one of the thingsI love to do is take the very
complex and break it down the simple pieces and the the one
that Chelsea shared is the unlock your LMD career.
(06:02):
I took. I used to have this very long
list of resources that was all about, you know, where to start,
Blogs to follow, podcast books. And I took it and I just
organized into this nice little,you know, like it looks kind of
like a PowerPoint presentation that you can go through and you
can click on what's pertinent toyou or what, where you're at in
(06:23):
the stage of the process. It's $5.
I'm not here to like make millions, just trying to make
some passive income because whatChelsea and I really do is we,
we give back. There's also so that one's $5.
You can get updates for life. So, and I go in every couple
weeks I update it, you'll get a notification that I added
something to the list and that you know, you get access for
(06:47):
like, I mean $5.00 because $5 isgoing to be like $15 in the next
10 years probably. So grab that.
There's another one too. There's a free 1 specifically
designed because I love teachersso much.
It's the top five instructional design interview questions.
And then this, this came from a present, a presentation I did
(07:08):
way back with ispring solutions.And also I've done a couple
different ones that's free and it just talks you through.
And this is really important forthis session.
Different types of of B is pushing his bed.
Hold on one second. It has made a complete mess.
If I showed you what he has donein the past five minutes,
(07:29):
there's fluff everywhere. That sounds about right, yeah.
So this particular resource, I was like, these are questions
that teachers ask me often or questions that I've encountered
along the way. And I'm like, you just need to
put this in the one thing that people can just download.
Again, it's free. I update it regularly.
And then there's one more, the Interview Pocket Guide.
(07:52):
This is something where it's notjust for necessarily L&D, it's
for any types of interviews you're going into, because I
know some of us aren't necessarily going into learning
development roles. You might be going into some of
these Ed adjacent things that Chelsea talked to, the marketing
communications, product management, Ed tech, all that
stuff. So these are just questions that
(08:13):
I see. I see a lot of like these are
the questions you might get asked, but I don't see these are
the questions you should ask. So that particular resource has
questions you will probably be asked at the different stages,
which include like the initial interview, the group interview,
so many different rounds, and then questions you should be
(08:34):
asking during the process. Because you know when you're
interviewing, it's not just about the company, it's not just
about getting a job, it's also figuring out if this is
somewhere where you want to be. So questions for you to ask that
I think are important at every stage of the interview process.
(08:55):
Such good stuff. I love it.
And I'm going to do more too. I'm writing a book.
I'm, I'm definitely 100% going to have a book out by the
beginning of January is my goal.It's like it's the title so far
what I have is it's not just onething like landing a role in
learning development, like the no BS guide, because there's a
lot of noise out there. And I just want to, I'm going to
(09:15):
sift through all that and just give you a guide, which I'm
going to just put up as APDF andthen self publish later on so
that people can access it. But these are really these are
guys that have helped me. Excellent.
I'm Beth. I'm going to throw some of the
resources into the chat afterwards.
And one I want to follow up on the initial resource that Holly
(09:38):
was talking about. And actually, I'll share that
one on the screen, The resource guy.
Yeah, this one. It's highly worth your $5.
This is one that I use regularlywhen I have, I'm doing a webinar
or I just somebody asks me aboutsomething, I'm like, oh, I know
where to find that information. Holly's already done it.
So this is, this is a really great way to just see what the
(10:03):
industry looks like and what allof these resources are because
there are a lot of people who share free resources.
There are a lot of great books. There are a lot of great
webinars and so forth. And Holly, he knows all of them,
so I highly recommend. It's really difficult for us as
we're trying to prepare for these interviews or the
applications to figure out like so many tabs open, too many
(10:24):
bookmarks like this. It has.
It's all there for you. Indeed.
And then I don't actually have the, I don't have the pocket
guide. I'm not going to.
Share that one. OK, Yeah.
So if you can share that one andthen I need to figure out how I
have these lovely little dropouts, but I don't actually
have the links. So I'll grab them while while
(10:46):
you're talking later. So Beth, they will, they will be
popping into the chat as we havea moment.
Let me pull that one out, Freddy.
I'm mad at you. He's like, we're all humans.
Like there's literally my puppy is my child.
(11:08):
He's just, he's a mess right nowbecause it was like his.
I don't know if anybody else experienced this.
You probably experienced this with your cats.
They have like a witching hour where they just.
Like all of. Them or they go crazy and they
tear stuff up. That's what he's doing right
now. What's his name?
Oh, that's Freddie. Freddie is his name.
Excellent. All right, so let's get started
(11:31):
with some questions. And as I said earlier, you guys
are welcome to throw in the chatfollow up questions that you
have and we'll just start to build a conversation.
So the first question I wanted to ask Holly was really a big
picture question because as she talked about earlier, she has
nearly 20 years of experience inlearning and development.
So corporate learning and development and also higher Ed
(11:53):
learning and development. And I'm wondering what changes
you've seen over time in how interviews have just been
conducted, What kinds of questions are being asked and
what the trends are? Yeah, I would say over time,
like when I was transitioning out of teaching into higher Ed,
there was, it was like a dime a dozen.
(12:14):
The finding the instructional technology or instructional
design jobs is really super difficult, but it wasn't as
competitive as it is nowadays. You know, we talked about this
on the podcast recently about the market being saturated and
you know, you were talking aboutyour thing of saturation
different ways. And I think of the different
ways too, is like it's just morepeople who are qualified for the
(12:37):
roles. Like people are very, you're
seeing my. I know.
I just texted them like I'm getting you can get it.
Get the dog. That's stuff all over the floor.
But it's like you're competing with people who are on the same
(12:58):
level as you or maybe, you know,have more experience than you.
There's not going to be this sort of situation where, you
know, I could apply for a role in higher education back in 2013
and I may or may not have all the experience, but they would
take a chance on me. That's not really happening
anymore. There aren't the like, I'm going
(13:18):
to take a chance on Holly because I talked to her.
I've, I've, I've seen some of her work.
I think she can do it. You know, we're going to give
her time to, to upskill. We're going to give her that
time to, to be proficient. But seems like nowadays
everybody just wants you to just.
Start. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
There's no, there's no training in learning and development.
(13:39):
Yeah, it's funny, isn't it's kind of kind of ironic, you
know, and that's actually as I'msaying that that's one of the
questions I ask is how many months, how many days?
What is their their own boardingplan look like their training
plan. So that's one question I would
encourage you to ask is like, what is the time to proficiency
for, you know, somebody like myself coming in, like I asked
(14:00):
that a recently an interview andthey said, well, you're going to
shadow me for a couple weeks andthen we're just going to let you
go and, and start the position because you have the experience,
which is a good thing and a bad thing in the sense like 2 weeks
isn't a lot of time to kind of get familiar with the systems
and all the different things. But also too, if I'm shattering
(14:21):
a person who's already doing it,I feel like that's very much,
you know, tied into like this iswhat's really happening every
day in that role. But going back to the saturation
thing, it's saturated in the sense that there's tons of
people who are qualified for theroles.
So you have to stand out and I did a I guess episode about that
(14:41):
recently. So one of the question, one of
the conversations we're seeing in the chat is people talking
about how many more interviews the process takes outside of
education. Is that something that you're
seeing, we're seeing more interviews or has it been pretty
consistent? I've seen, so I've seen, I've
(15:01):
actually seen more depending upon the level of competition
that's, you know, for the roles they get thousands of applicants
and they get very well qualifiedapplicants.
They're going to put, it feels like they're going to put you
through more some rigorous things to do, you know, and I've
also seen like it's more common nowadays for them to give you a
task related to the position to complete to make sure like, you
(15:23):
know, people, I'm not going to say people do this, but they
don't tell the truth all the time.
OK, So they want you to prove that you can do what you say you
can do. So there may be a related task
that's kind of abbreviated in the sense that it's not a full
like instructional design project or it's just something
where your project management, all that stuff.
(15:44):
But I think it's, I think that people are really, they're
really getting frustrated, myself included, by the number
of rounds. And what I see this as is, is
that the company is fearful thatthey're going to hire somebody
that is going to fit and it costthem money.
Every time they hire somebody and then they leave, there's
high turnover there. So pay attention to those things
(16:05):
too. Also, they just want to make,
they also want to make sure thatthey're getting the right people
in there so that they do stay. So it's kind of it's kind of a
double edged sword when you think about it.
I actually interviewed, I think it was about a year ago for a
company. I went through 6 rounds and I
was a finalist and they kept me on the hook because they had
(16:25):
somebody internally they wanted to hire and it was terrible.
I had to wait the whole weekend.I emailed, I emailed the lady,
the recruiter. I said OK, so what's going on?
You know what, have they hired anybody yet?
What's the word? You know, I was emailing them
and asking them what was the status and she, it didn't
message me till Monday morning, which we all know that causes
(16:47):
anxiety in itself, the waiting period between the different
interviews. And then they're like, no,
somebody else. We hired somebody internally.
And that's another thing too to mention is that if you make it
through all these rounds and youget to a point where it's like
you're one of three or, or whatever and you don't get the
role, they're probably hiring somebody internally.
(17:09):
It's not you, it's not you. It's them.
It really is. And once you get to that stage,
it can be so, so challenging to figure out who to hire because
everybody is so well qualified, so.
You. Have an internal, you at least
have some security there. But I think what you're pointing
out, we, we, we talk a lot aboutthe anxiety that job seekers
(17:29):
face, but there's a lot of anxiety in the company side too,
because it's kind of like datingfeels like a very big decision
for a lot of people. There are a couple of
interesting conversations going on in the chat.
Some of these we're going to getto later, but I want to pull
out, pull out one topic because it's something I was thinking
about too. So I get a ton of questions and
(17:51):
I know you do too, about what presenting your portfolio looks
like during an interview. And we're also getting a lot of
questions around tasks specifically like are they done?
Is it something you do beforehand or is it something
they're asking you to do on the spot?
So can you just kind of talk about some of the ways you're
seeing people ask you to prove what you can do are really
(18:14):
because they're also, as you said earlier, they're not just
assessing that you can do it, they're assessing that you're
the one who did it and they wanted sure.
How much of it did you do yourself versus AI versus your
colleagues? Right.
I think one of the things and I'm seeing what's going on in
chat is about the, the fear of like they're getting work for
free. And I make sure right off the
bat that if they tell me, good companies will tell you that
(18:37):
this task, this isn't going to be used anywhere.
This is simply used as part of the interview process and we
just want to evaluate your skillset.
So I would ask that because I have far too many times where
people come back to me and they would say like coaching clients,
Then they would say, well, they took my work.
I saw it a few months later, which I and I am baffled by
(18:59):
that. So because a lot of companies
make you sign an NBA and when you're interviewing or if you're
you're getting past certain rounds because they're going to
be sharing more and more about the company with you, make sure
that just say that. And I love the fact that.
And she put, wait, Amy put watermarking, which I think is
important. Or you share it as a resource.
(19:20):
If you're sharing something out like a drag link, you make it
unavailable after that or you make it available for a certain
amount of time so that they don't have access to that
anymore or after the interview. So yeah, people are tricky.
But again, the good companies, and I do want to mention this,
Chelsea, because a lot of the companies and jobs you share,
they will tell you the whole process and they will lay it
(19:41):
out, apply for those jobs right away because that tells you
something about the company, of the culture of the company.
They have respect for the peoplethat they're hiring, their
employees. They want to make, they want to
set you up for success. They want you to know they're
not keeping any secrets. They're very transparent.
They want to know right away, once you know right away what
you're going to be in for if you're going through the
(20:02):
interview process. I've seen I've seen a lot more
of those things mentioned in jobdescriptions lately than I have
in the past too. Yes, I think there's been a lot
more conversation around the thecandidate experience,
particularly when candidates arejust getting, they're applying
so frequently and not hearing back.
(20:22):
And so I think that that is having the an official back, the
official impact of having recruiters and hiring managers
think how do we improve this process?
There's still a lot of work to be done, but that got those
great job descriptions are one way that I see it as well.
Absolutely. So let's kind of step back.
So you, let's just say I'm goingto interview you for a learning
(20:44):
development position. How do you start preparing for
this interview? Yeah, you have to find something
that definitely makes you stand out.
And one of the things that I'll go back before you even get the
interview, one of the things I mentioned in a recent podcast
episode, I'm doing like this. Ask Holly segment now where I do
(21:05):
15 minutes of like answering a question and I go very next
episode, I go deeper into it. So one of the even before you
get to the interview, one of thethings I said to stand out is
because we have this plethora oflike all these different
documents. We have portfolio, we have
professional references, we haveour resume, we have I don't know
what whatever else you built thewebsite you there.
(21:27):
There's just tons of stuff for sharing.
But one of the things that everybody's sharing though, so
you're not, you're just sitting and I did a TikTok about this.
You're sitting in a pile of a pile of resumes.
But how does yours become the shining star or how do you stand
out? So one of the things I'm like,
there's got to be something unique that you can do that
(21:49):
makes you stand out. And one of the, there's two
things I'll share. The first one is making a video
that you link to in your resume by yourself about what you've
done professionally about. You know, my whole world
revolves around learning and development.
I don't know about everybody else or for people already in
the position, but I drive past abillboard or I go to a coffee
shop or I go to the local library.
(22:12):
And I'm like, how do all these processes work?
Like I think deeply about even going to a restaurant.
I think deeply about like, how does my work get from the
computer to the kitchen to the kitchen?
They know, you know, like, that's how my brain works.
So I would do a video about likehow learning development
encompasses my life, not saying is my life, but it it touches a
lot of different pieces. This makes you more human.
(22:36):
The resume is a very static document.
It's I'm like I'm reading your, you know, your journey.
It's great. You have a lot of experience,
but I don't I want to know more about you then.
So that's a good one. Keep it less than 3 minutes.
Do something quick. Throw a throw a prompt in a
ChatGPT. Get a quick script, don't make
(22:57):
it like it doesn't have to be Hollywood studio performance and
then include that link in your resume.
Also, the next one, which is something I just started doing,
which I really, really love and I'm sharing all my secrets now
is I asked. So you know, on LinkedIn, we
have recommendations that peoplecan, you can type, type
recommendations for people. Ask for recommendations.
(23:19):
I'm like, you know what? Those are boring too.
Like I'm not going to read through like I know that you
know, such and such copy paste of this from chat GBTI know they
mean that they're authentic about me, but I asked people who
are my most my best references. I said, can you please record a
video? Here's the script and it's a
video recommendation about how they work with you, what they
(23:40):
think of you, you know, working together.
Obviously you're not going to pick people who are going to say
something about it. You're going to pick people who
are going to be honest and genuine and talk about the work
that you've done. So those two things are going to
make you stand out initially just before you even get the
interview. And then when you get into the
interview process, I think people, as far as prepping is
(24:02):
concerned, like the nerf start as soon as the interview is
scheduled. As soon as you schedule the
interview, you're like, Oh my God, I got, I got to practice, I
got to study. It's like studying for the big
test. One of the things I like to do
is find the company page. I like to see if they have some
sort of strategic plan or they have like accessibility
information or if they, you know, there may be things you
(24:24):
can just tell right off the bat that there there's gaps there.
And I asked them a question about something that's on my
website. I prepare a question in advance
and I say I have seen your business plan, I have seen your
strategic plan. I have seen what you're learning
in development team is thinking about doing in the next five
years. And I, I asked them a question
(24:45):
about that and they're like, like she's, you know, she's done
her research, but that also too gives you an insider's
perspective into what's happening there.
And like, if they don't have a plan, do you want to work there?
Especially like, you know, it gives you information too.
So I was saying prepping for theinterview, find something that
(25:09):
you know you can talk to and find common ground when you're
in the interview. But on the other side of that, I
like to encourage people to be confident because you are
assessing that company in the interview just as much as
they're assessing you. Like, I know we all want money.
I know we want to make millions.If you want to make millions,
(25:30):
don't go on L&B because it's nothappening.
There's no sales going to sales,right?
But we're doing this because we have some, some sort of passion
about it. So really just make sure that
you are not putting all the responsibility.
Like, I just need this job. I'm just going to take it
because far, far too many times.And Chelsea, I know you've heard
these horror stories. People have taken the role and
(25:52):
they hated it and then they werejumping again because they just
took the role That was now don'tget me wrong, there's bridge
jobs. You know, there's things that
you can do is you can have a jobfor like one to two years, stuff
like that. But I want people to be
confident, like especially educators, because we come out
of the classroom with all this trauma that we have to deal with
(26:12):
before we even jump into something new.
So be confident of yourself and be like, like, what would you
ask somebody on a first date? Like, you know, I want to know
if they're like a crazy cat person not in Chelsea, you know,
like I want to know, I want to know like, what are they see in
the future? You know, like, think of the
questions you ask somebody when you're on a first date.
(26:33):
It's different in your 20s than it is in your 40s.
And that's goes the same for like jobs too, because you're
looking for different things at those times in your life.
So confidence is key. Absolutely.
One last thing I'll say is that I saw like some questions that
were coming in about the STAR method and like writing down
stuff and answering questions, and we'll get into that.
(26:55):
But I would just say think back in all of your roles and just
have prep situations you've beenin and have those ready to go.
There's nothing that says you can't look off a piece of paper
in an interview. There's nothing that says you
can't have it up on the screen as a prompt like I scripted out
for this particular presentation.
Just I have notes. So I just remember everything.
(27:17):
So like certain situations on Amazon where I work with
difficult SMEs, or I work with difficult faculty in higher
education or something I built from scratch or something.
I influenced something, you know, something that I changed
about a process. So have those ready to go.
Then you won't even have to think.
Write down the keywords of the situation so that you just
remember it. Indeed.
And I also, one of the things I'll, I'll kind of echo there is
(27:39):
people get really stressed when something goes slightly wrong in
an interview or they think I answered that question poorly.
I've interviewed people who havebombed a single question, but
they've been fantastic everywhere else and they we pass
them along because we're really focused on everything.
So I think a lot of times that confidence you were talking
(28:01):
about and being able to really relax and say I don't have to be
perfect, I just have to be humanand really communicate myself.
That authenticity and that confidence gets you everywhere,
if I'm being honest, like we're just not nobody that works in
the company is perfect. Perfect doesn't exist.
Like they're, they're absolutely100% looking for the Unicorn.
(28:23):
And I'm like, if you have like 50 to 60% of the qualifications,
apply for the role. People are already deterred by
the fact that they're like, well, I don't have this or I
don't have that or I need to go and then learn articulate real
quick. No, that's not the case.
You need to just apply anyway. Apply anyway.
Particularly because there's so much boilerplate and they're
like, you have to have it, but then the job is working with
(28:45):
PowerPoint slides. Hey this is way beyond this is
like I got this, this is easy. Yeah, definitely trust the job
description, but don't believe it.
I ask the questions. You need to ask the questions.
Exactly. And this, I think a lot of this
is really geared towards doing your research and personalizing
(29:05):
how you approach an interview for each company.
And it's a lot of work, but whenyou get to the interview stage,
that means they think you're qualified.
You really want to show fit, youwant to show engagement, you
really want to differentiate yourself.
Exactly. That's how I started with.
So one of the things that I wanted to talk a little bit
about is some of the differencesbetween corporate and university
(29:28):
interview processes. And the reason I wanted to talk
about this is for those of you who are teachers, corporate or
sorry, corporate, higher Ed can often be a great bridge job to
get into corporate because a lotof times the higher Ed, higher
Ed companies, the higher Ed organizations are looking for
people I'm. Not going to You're not wrong,
Kelsey. That's also true.
(29:49):
Yes, they're there. Yes, there's a lot of money in
there, but so these these higherEd companies are looking for
relevant skills, whereas the corporate is often looking for
the relevant skills and some business experience.
So can. You talk a little bit about.
How your experience has been differently?
Yeah. So higher education, like you're
saying, is a great bridge into first somebody coming out of the
classroom because higher education is built on pedagogy,
(30:12):
adult learning theory like you, you know those things already.
You're aware of those different types of theories and
modalities. And it operates like when you're
in a classroom, you're you're working with people in the
classroom. You're just not at the forefront
of the classroom. You're not the you're not the
teacher you're going to be working to support.
You're going to kind of be in the supporting role, like in a,
in a play like the backstage people.
(30:34):
So I would say with higher education and, and one thing I
do want to be transparent about is notoriously higher education
salaries are lower than in a corporate LND space.
So they're about 15 to 20,000 lower, unfortunately, but
they're, they're significantly higher than teaching because
teaching does not teachers do not get paid, but they should be
paid in our culture, in our society.
(30:55):
So higher education, like I said, it is a good jumping off
point, but don't expect that you're going to be jumping like,
you know, thousands of dollars in salary range, but it's a
comfort area. So it's an area that, you know,
it's an area that you feel like you can grow in and you're going
to work with other people who are former teachers.
You're going to be in a culture where people who have
(31:17):
transitioned out of education just so you know that I don't
know anybody. I mean, I know it's about to
happen because of Gen. Z and like what's happening in
higher education and our industry and AII don't know
anybody that said I want to be an instructional designer when I
grow up. That was their first job, I
don't think. It existed it.
(31:37):
Didn't exist. Yeah.
So you're not going to meet people who say, I know, I've
known since I was in 8th grade. I wanted to be an instructional
designer. Not, not at this point, but
maybe later on, because now there's bachelor's degrees in
instructional designs, which didn't previously exist.
So you're among people who are doing the same thing that you're
doing that are making the transition.
(31:58):
Like I said, higher education isa comfort zone.
But I also want to caution you, I'm a cautionary tear of higher
education. Just like K to 12.
It's got a lot of red tape. There's a lot of bureaucracy.
It moves notoriously slower thancorporate.
There's a lot of hoops you have to jump through to get things
done. Innovation is often stagnated by
that red tape. But like I said, you can make
(32:20):
your own way. I always say, like when I get
into a role, I'm like, what can I do here that's different than
what everybody else has been doing?
You know, whether that's improving A ticketing process or
that's, you know, transitioning from one Ed tech to a different
software for for the school and laying out the plan.
But higher education is definitely a comfort.
And I would encourage you if youdon't feel like you're ready to
(32:42):
jump into corporate to go there first.
Because higher education, while they are business, they're
focused on learning. They understand learning.
They understand what learning is.
Now corporate on the other hand,do we want you want to pause for
going to corporate? Let's see.
Oh, the high level politics then.
(33:02):
Higher end. Yeah, huge.
Oh my word, huge like you. It's it's so interesting.
When I worked at UNBCI, ran for the faculty Senate.
I had been there. I I'm an alum of there.
I'm from Maryland and I was like, you know, I've been here a
couple years. I know a lot of different people
across campus. I'm just I'm going to nail the
seat. Didn't get it.
(33:24):
Didn't get it. Like it was like then a couple
weeks later the president emailed and he's like, somebody
dropped out, but you're the nextone.
And I was like, it's very political and I just wanted to
be on the Senate. To like have a voice for my
particular area of the institution is crazy political.
It's crazy cool. So one of the questions we had
(33:44):
earlier was really specific about whether you're hearing
anything hearing questions aboutAI, but I wanted need to think
about that question. But also kind of in general,
what are the questions that you're hearing right now that
you think might surprise people or the thing might not really be
preparing for? I think one of the things that
might surprise people is like how much AI is actually
(34:06):
impacting the position right now.
It's not impacting, it's a part of it, you know, like asking the
questions around, well, like howdo you use AI?
What is your, what is your intention?
Or have you ever built a policy for your L&D group around AI?
And what does that look like? I'm like, whoa, like I've never
built like a formal policy around, you know, like when you
(34:27):
think of a hire, they have tons of policies.
Companies have policies, but just thinking about like this is
what's going to be happening as AI continues to evolve and think
about the things that are going to be impacting us as
instructional designers or LND professionals.
And I think one of the things islike sifting through what's the
truth as to what's the myth whenit comes to AI and how it's
(34:52):
going to impact these roles. So that's a question.
I was like, I've kind of talked about policy before, but I've
never formally made something, you know, talking about data a
lot more. There's a lot more around data
because in higher education and in corporate data is very
important to prove that the outcomes that you're trying to
(35:14):
reach are happening. So just like business schools
and corporate higher education has accreditation things.
So they have to kind of prove that I think data is a is a
surprising question to me too, because as an instructional
designer, the only data that I've ever looked at is like for
courses I've worked on or courses I was teaching.
But now you're looking at it across the whole organization or
(35:35):
the whole institution. And then they're like, well,
what do you do with that data? What if the data is it's not
performing? Then they asked you, like
somebody said something about the multi stage question, like
what do you do if the data is showing that you did the screen
experience and it's not working?What do you do?
How do you shift? How do you pivot right away?
That that stuff makes me want tocry because I'm like, how do you
(35:56):
prepare for that? It's just, it's like, it's like
you just, you know, you just have to take a deep breath and
take, take one of those scenarios that you wrote down
and try to answer the question as best as you can.
But those ones intimidate me. They intimidate me for sure.
And they're getting there. They're just shifting.
It's not like, OK, well, tell usabout you.
(36:17):
Well, tell us about your experience.
Well, tell us, you know, let's go through your resume.
It's not like that anymore. And I know you've been on the
interview, you, you've interviewed people before too.
And some of the questions that came in before our session were
around like what happens when you get faced with one of these
questions? But from the interview side, a
lot of times we're not looking for you to actually have the
(36:40):
answer. We don't necessarily.
You may not have written an AI policy, but we want to see how
you think what is what is the way you approach that and
unfamiliar scenario? What is the way you approach
policy development? And so a lot of times if you
can't answer the civic question,really turn it into thinking
about your process and talking about what what you do that's
(37:03):
similar. Because if you're pivoting,
people know you're pivoting and they're going to be they're not
necessarily going to be expecting you to answer the
question the same way that to people who have already worked
in the field answered it. So one of the things I think is
most of the time the intervieweris on your side.
They're not going to have calledyou in unless they're actually
(37:24):
really interested in hearing from you.
Exactly. You're exactly right.
And you know, I think we put toomuch weight behind this, this
whole process. And that's what really does
stress us out about especially teachers there.
I know there's a lot of educators in the room and you're
like, I can't tell you how many teachers I've come across and
they're like, well, I'm not going to include my teaching
experience on my resume. I'm like, why?
(37:46):
Well, obviously we've seen some companies names that remain
unmentioned, but like we, we don't hire former educators
versus stupid on their part. But it's like you're thinking
about it in a way like, Oh my God, that, you know, like I've
been in the classroom for 20 years.
This is all I've ever known. Like, and now I'm going to step
into something new. It's definitely, it's definitely
(38:07):
a transition and there's a lot of different things you have to
go through to deal with that transition.
But look what you did for 20 years.
Look what you did for 10 years. Why wouldn't you honor that
experience on your resume? Why don't you honor that
experience in talking about the processes that you did in the
classroom? Like listen, planning, unit
planning, creating assessments, activities like, you know,
(38:27):
dealing with the students and classroom management, like
project management is a part of part of all that data you had
grading. That's data.
So thinking about all those different things.
So there's been an interesting conversation going on that I've
been partially following, and it's a good question that I
don't have a great answer for, so I'm going to throw it on to
(38:47):
you. So one of the things I hear a
lot of times from people who area little bit older than me, So
Full disclosure, I'm in my mid 40s and I'm really thrilled to
have 20 years of experience because I'm like, yes, hi, I'm
now finally. But then we get people who are,
you know, they have an extra 10 years of experience and they
(39:09):
start to really get nervous about the job discrimination.
There was the work day lawsuit where they were actually
blocking people who were certainage, which is appalling.
And I can't wait for the discovery.
We're going to find so much out.But from from a practical
standpoint, the more experience you have, you're really bringing
in a lot of knowledge, knowledgeand expertise.
(39:30):
But the question is, is there that bias?
And if there is that bias, what are some strategies people can
use to combat it? Yeah, don't apply for entry
level stuff. That's one.
They're gonna be really biased towards you if you're applying
for entry level. So cuz you're not entry level,
they're just going to. It's not going to have anything
to do with age. It's going to have to do with
your experience. I mean which can be correlated
(39:52):
with age, but don't apply for entry level stuff.
I tell people coming out of classroom when you have so many
years experience like you are definitely mid to higher.
You're in the mid, the higher range, and you should be looking
for roles. You should be looking for
leadership roles. You should be looking for roles
that are like have senior in thetitle or director in the title.
You know, and I, I know people are going to say, but I don't
(40:13):
have any experience in instructional design, but there
are things that you can do to prepare yourself for these
positions, like using some of the resources I share.
We're just talking to people like in in the roles.
I would just secure you from applying to entry level roles
thinking that you have to start over because I think people like
if I apply for an entry level role, people will probably I
(40:34):
would, I would expect them to laugh right now.
I would expect them to be like, I don't understand why she did
this. She must be really desperate for
something. But again, it goes back to
honoring that experience. And I've had plenty of people,
sorry, my voice is kind of getting after the work day.
I've had plenty of people tell me that they found great
companies, some of these smallercompanies, the ones that you
post about Chelsea that have honored their teaching
(40:56):
experience and use their experience there to propel them
into these leadership roles. So maybe you don't start as a
senior, but you might start in amid level position and then like
a year later you're in that director role because you've
learned things. Yeah, a lot.
So if you don't want to manage people like a senior
instructional designer, you may or may not be managing
(41:16):
instructional designers. But if you don't want to manage
people, then you're going to limit yourself to just like the,
the mid roles that require no supervision or manager
experience, which I totally get.Managing is a lot like you're
just managing people. You're managing people all day
long and like you can't get any of your work done.
I I totally get that. But you can find stuff that's,
(41:40):
you know, you've had a few rolesout there on on Skip that have
been like director of professional services, I think
was one of them. And I posted a director level
rule today that I'm pretty sure didn't have management.
Experience. Yeah.
Like, like they don't, it's kindof like being like ACEO, like a
CIO, like a chief academic, likeyou're in a very top level
(42:01):
position. You're not necessarily C-Suite,
but you're, you're above to where you have people who are
doing the managing. You're just kind of delegating
and you're paying attention moreto what's happened at the top.
And then you're sharing that information out with the rest of
the people that are working withyou.
But yeah, there, there are some roles where you can be at the
top level and you're not managing people.
(42:23):
You're gonna have to interact with people.
I'm not gonna lie. You're not gonna be a hermit.
We're not an IT. We're not gonna be a hermit
center. It's sitting behind the
computer. You're gonna have to work with
people. But I got away from that
question a little bit. It's more like what was the
initial question. Yeah.
Well, I think we covered it well.
We were initially talking about the whether people like age
(42:44):
discrimination, but I love that advice to not apply for entry
level roles because a lot of times we get focused on the job
description saying tech skills. But I noticed a lot of the roles
I post actually frame it a little differently.
They will say looking for adult learning experience and that's a
real clue. But that's a great job for you
(43:06):
to apply for. So I would definitely, yes,
there's definitely age discrimination.
There's no way we can say there isn't.
But also don't sell yourself short.
I love how you're saying value your experience because.
There's a, there's a, there's a whole episode I did on, on where
I did it by myself because I was, I was feeling like you'll
(43:27):
notice that I'm kind of like Taylor Swift.
Like when I'm feeling something,I'm doing a podcast episode
about it. I'm writing about it.
I'm like, so I did an episode recently where knowing your
worth and your value, because oftentimes times, and I will say
this to former teachers, we sellour shelves short because we
think we don't deserve it when we actually do, you know, like
especially being a woman in thisindustry, being somebody who's
(43:51):
worked in corporate with Amazon with I think one time I, I
looked at our leadership, it wasall male.
I was like, what is going on here?
Like we need a, we need a gallonhere.
You know, we need somebody else,somebody different, some
diversity, but I knowing your worth is something that comes
with like moving away from the imposter rendrum.
You're going to have it. It's not going to go away
(44:13):
completely, but knowing that youneed this salary to beat
survive. You need to put away some from
retirement to sustain your current lifestyles.
Like the confidence is key. And I think that's one of the
things that resonates with people is like, I'm very
confident on the screen too. Like I have applied, like people
(44:33):
say, I've applied to hundreds and hundreds of jobs and I've,
I've, I've done that too in recent months and I have gotten,
I was like everybody does. I know this role is for me.
Like I'm going to get this role because I have all the
experience necessary. And guess what?
I got a rejection e-mail within 30 minutes.
I know it's an ATS system, but confidence and knowing your
(44:55):
worth, please don't, please don't sell yourself short
because we don't, don't get to do this again.
We don't get to like, I don't want you having to jump into a
rule that you don't like or you're not getting paid enough
and then you're like, oh, I haveto find a second job or most of
us do have different side hustles and things like that.
And I think that one of the things that I think I'm kind of
(45:17):
following the conversation here,we often think hiring managers
don't understand that because we're not getting interviews.
Going back to something Holly was talking about earlier on,
when you're any time you're interviewing people, you've got
about 50% of the people who apply who are halfway qualified
for the position. So a lot of times they're not
(45:40):
making the decision about, oh, this person has teaching
experience, I don't want to hirethem.
They're making the decision of I've got 5 people who have this
experience that I listed as a preferred experience, so I'm
going to start with them. So one of the things with
imposter syndrome, don't say just because I'm not getting
results, it means that I'm applying to the wrong jobs.
(46:02):
Keep up on until a lot of those stretch jobs because you're
going to find the right 1. And I think Holly's advice to
focus on the smaller companies spot on.
I was talking to someone, she was a teacher a couple of years
ago. Now she's sales director and
she, you know what she's doing, She's saving roles for teachers.
She's like, this role is only for teachers.
(46:23):
So there are a lot of people in the industry who are trying to
help people transition as well, so.
We're all in. We want, we want more of us in
here because it's making the sector better, whether that's
corporate, higher education, government, like you're here.
We want to bring other tiers on who are ready for something
different, but still make a change because teachers have,
(46:45):
they have this crazy, I don't know, it's kind of like nurses
like you do the show because youhave something innate in you
that teaching gives you and thatyou want to give back and you
don't expect anything in return.And that's kind of like what LND
is. Yes, I agree.
And one of the things I found, and that we're seeing it in this
chat too, learning and development, is we are the kind
(47:06):
of people we get together and somebody says, oh, I'm looking
at this and they're like, oh, I can help you with that.
And yeah, you get all these resources.
And it's really a beautiful thing.
Like I can't even keep up with the entire job.
So it's wonderful. So we are running into a little
bit of the end of this session. So what I really do is ask you
one final question and then if there are some burning
(47:29):
questions, we haven't gotten to you because again, I've I've
definitely missed some things inthe chat.
Throw a couple of burning questions and and we'll try to
get at least one or two of them.Yeah, I I noticed one right
away. I just want to point out the
recruiters and the hiring managers.
The recruiters don't necessarilyknow instructional designer
learning and development. Most of the recruiters you're
dealing with are just recruiters.
(47:50):
So don't think they know about learning development.
OK. So don't assume that we have
like they know anything about the role or what you're going to
be doing. And you know, we can talk about
recruiters another time, but there's some good ones and
there's some bad ones, just likegoing on dates and stuff.
But don't put all your like all the recruiters going to, you
know, the recruiter is like the key to everything.
No, it's going to be you. So I just want to mention that.
(48:13):
Yeah, and recruiters are screening.
So what that means you want to be able to say, oh, you're
asking a question about my adultlearning experience.
Let me tell you about my adult learning experience.
Right now it's very transactional, yes.
So the question that I really want to ask is I have been
hearing a lot of really bad stats lately.
And one of them is that 70% of people get jobs through
(48:35):
networking. And I, I, I question the 70%,
but I also think some of it, yeah, some of it is like, what
are we defined as networking? So the reason I wanted to ask
you this question, Holly, is that you have this extensive
network. So you know everybody in the
industry and you have this fantastic learning and
development podcast. Everyone is listening to you and
(48:58):
you have a huge network. You also have like 50,000
LinkedIn dollars. So I'm curious whether or not
for you you're thinking, yes, networking is how I get a job,
but it sounds like you're still applying to jobs just like
everybody else. So tired about how networking
how you approach. Networking.
First of all, I want to say thatthat network was built Bloods 1
(49:19):
tiers 50 to 50,000 over the pastfive years.
There is no is not easy to network.
However, when I think about likethis whole process is like we're
all human. We all have to connect with each
other and know different things and know different people.
And the one thing to me that hasn't changed in any sector
(49:43):
through the application process or looking for roles or
different things is that you have to know somebody to know
somebody. That is a thing now.
I don't think it's 70%. I can't say that for sure.
I think it might be a little bitless than that.
But I will say that if you know people, there are things, think
(50:05):
of it like this, This is how I think of it.
Like think of Zillow, like the real estate platform.
There are houses that are pre market that you don't even see
come onto the market. So there's pre market jobs.
Like I had somebody post something in a group that they
hadn't posted on LinkedIn yet looking for contract IDs.
So there are those types of things.
(50:25):
So you want to know where to be to get those get into those
situations. I'm not saying that's the only
way to get the jobs. And then you of course, you have
the houses that are for sale, the jobs that are like
everybody, like what's on Chelsea site, what's on
LinkedIn, what's on on deed or whatever.
You know, whoever you follow outon LinkedIn world that does the
job posting and like you see allthe different ones and every
(50:47):
those are all up for grabs for everybody.
But also too through networking and having conversations with
people. I had somebody tell me recently
they said there's going to be anupcoming like role, you know,
you know, be on the lookout likeI'm saying that pre sales stuff,
you know, would you be interested and possibly applying
(51:07):
for the job? So if you've worked in previous
positions that might have like an L&D feel or touch, I could go
back to those people and be like, has anything opened Or do
you think is there a possibilitythat I can do some contract work
with you all? Because it doesn't just come
through like knowing the person.And Chelsea and I were talking
about this previously before we started the session about coffee
(51:29):
chats. I don't know how I feel about
coffee chats. People ask me for coffee chats
all the time. I started my networking out
doing that and it worked really well.
But now it feels like something that's transactional and people
just, they either keep asking for more free stuff or they
ghost me, or they're not really.They don't really read my
LinkedIn or they don't know me. And that's the thing too, when
(51:50):
you're networking, you should definitely do some research from
the person. I've had people come in and
think that like I worked before I even worked in marketing, that
I was a marketer and I'm like no, did you or that you're
hiring or that I'm hiring? Yes, or that I'm hiring yeah.
Or that I have some tie to theseroles.
(52:11):
So I think networking is important for you.
Linkedin's got a lot getting a lot of bad, getting a bad
reputation lately. I don't know why L and DI don't
feel like we're there, but maybein other sectors you are.
So you definitely need to know somebody that knows somebody
because we're so giving and we share so much information with
each other that there's going tobe a job where you're going to
(52:33):
be like there haven't been 1000 people that apply to it.
It's just going to be a small company that uses a Google form
to express your interest or to apply for the role.
So that's my take. Yeah.
And I think I agree with a lot of that.
I think we can also think about networking.
Somebody was talking a little bit about this, the cold, the
cold messaging. A lot of times creating a
(52:54):
conversation in the the commentscan really be format networking.
And then you know, you build relationships.
Like actually, I think that's probably how we started chatting
and then we started chatting in person.
So thinking about networking notas this big task.
I don't have to have a 20 minutecoffee chat.
I just have to make a connection.
I think that's a great approach.Yeah, don't go into LinkedIn
(53:16):
like, you know, like so many people and I say this like we
don't have we don't necessarily have connections or ends to the
jobs we're posting. We're kind of we're sourcing
them. Some people go I'm interested,
I'm like, well then apply, you know, or they, they, they put
they either message you directlyI'm like, can you review my
resume and they're asking for free services or they're like
(53:37):
they put their resume in the comments and they want people to
you know there's there's certainplaces for those things there's
certain groups and things that you can do that and that's not
in the comments section of somebody who applies for.
Well, I do love seeing it though, when somebody posts a
role in LMD and then people are like, I'm interested, I applied.
I can't wait to talk to you. I love that.
I love seeing the attention around like what a job gets
(53:57):
because that's just getting moreand more qualified candidates.
But don't be like, I'm interested.
Here's my resume. What should I do to fix it?
Or, you know, interview me now, like that kind of stuff.
People are, people are so bored.There's a there's a certain set
of rules you have to follow to kind of get into the network.
Well, it's like what you said earlier with your video, you
(54:19):
want to see the person behind it.
And so when you see that comment, you're getting to know
the person behind it, but add something to that comment, talk
about project you've done or something like that.
That really gets them excited. Oh, excellent.
Tony, I posted a couple of director roles, but I, I, I wish
you luck with all of them. So last word, Holly, I would
have a broad open-ended question.
(54:40):
What do you think is the final word that you would say about
interviewing? We've talked about so many
different aspects of it, everything from the emotional
side to some of the tactical strategy side.
What do you want to close with? I really just want everybody to
remember that you're more than just a piece of paper.
You're more than a portfolio, You're more than whatever
(55:04):
project you did in the past and failed at.
To me, like when you're looking for a new job, it's because
you've hit a point where you're either, no, I don't want to say
bored, but you're looking for more of a challenge.
You're looking for something different that is going to make
your life better. And I want people to know that
(55:24):
you are so much more than that. Those pieces of papers and those
professional resources. And I'll tell you this, I have
gone through resumes and been onhiring committees and I have
picked people like this is goingto be the top candidate from the
resume. And guess what?
They were terrible. They were.
Terrible. So that piece of paper doesn't
necessarily say who you are. Everything in your power.
(55:46):
Get those video recommendations,do a video yourself.
Step out of your comfort zone. You are worth it.
You are 100% worth it and you should not settle for anything
less at this stage. Many of you at this stage in
your career, you deserve something better.
And if you talk to me and Chelsea, we will tell you where
to go. There are other places like you
(56:07):
can find roles. Create like the last thing I'll
say is create opportunity for yourself.
Don't rely on the corporations and the powers that be to make
you think that you need to have a job in in certain areas.
Create your own path like I create.
I've created roles like the director of growth marketing,
Shawna created that just for me.Like I didn't do anything that
(56:31):
wasn't a posted role. So please, I know you're worth
you are more than just a piece of paper and go for it.
You got it. And you got it's a fantastic way
to end Beth. This is Holly's Holly's podcast
that I popped up. It's the add up learning and
development. Here's their Yeah Add Up
learning and development podcast.
Yep, excellent podcast. I was aware I was missing, so
(56:53):
that's OK. Yeah.
So I love all of these comments that we're getting.
I'm glad people have found this useful.
I love listening to Holly and I seriously, I always write things
down because I'm like Holly on this.
There's more. I mean, we could probably do
another one of these, if I'm being honest.
Well. We've got a bunch of requests
for for them and also for a couple of just just asking
(57:15):
questions and which is nice because it means less prep for
us and we can still add value. Happy to jump on and do AQ and a
just the whole thing like a radio show.
Yeah, I I like that approach. So we will definitely keep that
in mind as. You're welcome everyone.
Have a great night afternoon. Yes.
So for those of you who are asking about the recording, as
(57:35):
soon as I hit stop on all this, an automatic e-mail goes out.
It's beautiful. I love automation of the
recording as well as some of thelinks that we shared too.
So you'll get Holly's LinkedIn, you'll get my LinkedIn.
And in particular, I can't remember now what I wrote, but I
think I shared each of these links on there.
(57:56):
So cool. Great.
Thank you all for coming and we really appreciate you spending
your evening with us. All right, I'm going to hit
pause. Good night.
I'm so I'm going to turn off thesession, but then we're still
audible. I learned last time.
OK, we have to go off the stage.Oh wait, you go Aza, how you do
(58:17):
it? Oh, but then we can't talk to
each other, right? Right.
This is a new system for those of you who are watching this at
any rate, I will say thank you Holly and have a have a lovely
night too. I'm going to yes.
It is like the after park. Yeah, where this is the after
show where we really get into the the good stuff.
(58:37):
Exactly. All the secrets.
All right, so I'm going to end it and then I think it's going
to kick us all off. So have a good night and good
night everyone else. That's a wrap for today's
episode of the Ed Up Learning and Development podcast.
I hope you picked up some inspiration, strategies, and
(58:58):
maybe even a spark of motivationto take with you on your own
journey. If you enjoyed this
conversation, don't forget to subscribe to our show so you
never miss an episode. And while you're there, go ahead
and give us a five star rating. It really helps more people in
the L&D community find us and join the conversation.
(59:19):
Until next time, remember my motto.
Speak it, build it, land it. Thanks for listening and I'll
catch you in the next episode. Hi, we're ispring, an
international team of e-learningenthusiasts who helped more than
60,000 clients across the globe succeed with better online
learning. Our two flagship solutions are
(59:40):
ispring Suite and ispring Learn LMS.
Hi, we're ispring, an international team of e-learning
enthusiasts who help more than 60,000 clients across the globe
succeed with better online learning.
Our two flagship solutions are ispring Suite and ispring Learn
LMS. Ispring Suite is an intuitive,
all in one authoring tool for creating engaging e-learning
(00:23):
content, and ispringlearn is an innovative online training
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experts, and organize annual e-learning conferences,
(00:43):
challenges, and championships. We'd be happy to get to know you
and pick a solution that fits your needs best.
Go to www.icepringsolutions.com to learn more about us, download
our resources, and connect. Welcome, welcome.
We are going to give you a few minutes to trickle in and feel
(01:08):
free to throw in the chat where you're coming from.
Nice and easy and it's it's lovely to hear, hear all the
different places that we're in. I'm in Maine and Holly, you're
down. You're down South.
Yes, I'm in Wilmington, NC. Oh, we got to Boston.
That's close Maryland, Portland,OR I'm close to the other
(01:32):
Portland, which gets confusing you.
Know what's funny is in North Carolina, we have a
Jacksonville. When I first knew Tara was like,
I'm like, that's in Florida and there's a Jacksonville.
I learned recently there's a Jacksonville, GA.
Is there really. Yeah, I should know about that.
In high school, I had to memorize all of the counties.
All right, So I think this is a good time to get started.
(01:58):
So, folks, thank you so much forjoining us.
Whether it's your afternoon or whether or not you're nibbling
on dinner while you while you listen to us, we appreciate your
attendance. And I also really appreciate
Holly for joining us. I'm very much looking forward to
this conversation. If you follow either of us, you
know, we often get together and have these little conversations,
(02:20):
but usually Holly's interviewingme and she always does something
during these conversations. And I'm like, I want to know
more. I want to know more.
So this is the I want to know more.
And we're going to let Holly really take the stage here and
share everything that she knows about interviewing and learning
and development. And this is something that she's
done over the course of her career, but it's also something
(02:42):
that she's done recently. So she's got some really great
insights into what's going on right now, not just in learning
development overall, because of course she runs a great podcast
and so forth and keeps up with the industry, but really what's
going on in the interview process specifically.
So I didn't introduce myself. If you don't know me, I am
Chelsea Averett and I'm the founder of Skip's job board.
(03:06):
And what I do is share jobs thatare in what I call education
adjacent fields or adjacent fields.
So education, instructional design, learning and
development, anything that's really looking for the skill set
that we have of training or teaching other people.
And Holly is going to introduce herself and then we're going to
(03:28):
get started with some questions.The way we'll run the session is
I'll ask some questions. And if you guys want to hear any
follow up as Holly is answering the questions, feel free to
throw it in the chat. I'll be monitoring the chat and
then we'll pull those questions up.
And then we'll also have some time for some questions from you
guys at the end of the session as well.
(03:50):
So we're going to keep it prettyfluid, a conversation between
Holly and me and also between you guys in the chat and all of
us. Let's see Holly, go ahead.
Hi everyone, I appreciate you joining me, You know, especially
those on the East Coast. It's dinner time.
Thank you so much for coming on and Chelsea for inviting me on.
I really think this, this particular webinar lends itself
to being very discussion, focus,active focus on the audience
(04:14):
because we want you to be able to ask questions that have been
in your head or you've just things you've experienced
recently like top of mind for you.
For those of you who don't know me, my name is Holly Owens.
I am currently a freelance instructional designer.
I have a couple different contracts that I've been working
on, but I started my career out as a high school teacher, which
(04:34):
I know there are some of you in the audience who are looking to
be former teachers like myself. I did it before it was the cool
thing to do back in 2011. And then I moved into higher
education, instructional design,instructional technology, which
eventually evolved into all instructional design.
Then I hopped into some corporate, went to Amazon.
(04:55):
And then I most recently I did, which is not really super
related, but it is related. I did some marketing director of
marketing at Yellow Dick, which is an Ed tech company.
So every part of the sector you can think of I've probably been
a part of or I just, you know, I've worked somewhere closely
with someone who's a part, a part of every sector and
learning and development. And I was really excited when
(05:17):
Chelsea asked me to come and answer some of the, the point of
questions that you have. And, you know, maybe alleviate,
maybe be a little bit of a therapist and alleviate some of
the stress or the anxiety that goes along with this whole
application process. And when it comes to especially
for those transition into different careers.
So I'm really excited to jump into all that.
(05:39):
Cool before we ask questions, doyou wanna talk a little bit
about you have a lot of resources for people and do you
wanna share some of those and I've got as we.
Yeah. So I've been doing some thinking
about like how one of the thingsI love to do is take the very
complex and break it down the simple pieces and the the one
that Chelsea shared is the unlock your LMD career.
(06:02):
I took. I used to have this very long
list of resources that was all about, you know, where to start,
Blogs to follow, podcast books. And I took it and I just
organized into this nice little,you know, like it looks kind of
like a PowerPoint presentation that you can go through and you
can click on what's pertinent toyou or what, where you're at in
(06:23):
the stage of the process. It's $5.
I'm not here to like make millions, just trying to make
some passive income because whatChelsea and I really do is we,
we give back. There's also so that one's $5.
You can get updates for life. So, and I go in every couple
weeks I update it, you'll get a notification that I added
something to the list and that you know, you get access for
(06:47):
like, I mean $5.00 because $5 isgoing to be like $15 in the next
10 years probably. So grab that.
There's another one too. There's a free 1 specifically
designed because I love teachersso much.
It's the top five instructional design interview questions.
And then this, this came from a present, a presentation I did
(07:08):
way back with ispring solutions.And also I've done a couple
different ones that's free and it just talks you through.
And this is really important forthis session.
Different types of of B is pushing his bed.
Hold on one second. It has made a complete mess.
If I showed you what he has donein the past five minutes,
(07:29):
there's fluff everywhere. That sounds about right, yeah.
So this particular resource, I was like, these are questions
that teachers ask me often or questions that I've encountered
along the way. And I'm like, you just need to
put this in the one thing that people can just download.
Again, it's free. I update it regularly.
And then there's one more, the Interview Pocket Guide.
(07:52):
This is something where it's notjust for necessarily L&D, it's
for any types of interviews you're going into, because I
know some of us aren't necessarily going into learning
development roles. You might be going into some of
these Ed adjacent things that Chelsea talked to, the marketing
communications, product management, Ed tech, all that
stuff. So these are just questions that
(08:13):
I see. I see a lot of like these are
the questions you might get asked, but I don't see these are
the questions you should ask. So that particular resource has
questions you will probably be asked at the different stages,
which include like the initial interview, the group interview,
so many different rounds, and then questions you should be
(08:34):
asking during the process. Because you know when you're
interviewing, it's not just about the company, it's not just
about getting a job, it's also figuring out if this is
somewhere where you want to be. So questions for you to ask that
I think are important at every stage of the interview process.
(08:55):
Such good stuff. I love it.
And I'm going to do more too. I'm writing a book.
I'm, I'm definitely 100% going to have a book out by the
beginning of January is my goal.It's like it's the title so far
what I have is it's not just onething like landing a role in
learning development, like the no BS guide, because there's a
lot of noise out there. And I just want to, I'm going to
(09:15):
sift through all that and just give you a guide, which I'm
going to just put up as APDF andthen self publish later on so
that people can access it. But these are really these are
guys that have helped me. Excellent.
I'm Beth. I'm going to throw some of the
resources into the chat afterwards.
And one I want to follow up on the initial resource that Holly
(09:38):
was talking about. And actually, I'll share that
one on the screen, The resource guy.
Yeah, this one. It's highly worth your $5.
This is one that I use regularlywhen I have, I'm doing a webinar
or I just somebody asks me aboutsomething, I'm like, oh, I know
where to find that information. Holly's already done it.
So this is, this is a really great way to just see what the
(10:03):
industry looks like and what allof these resources are because
there are a lot of people who share free resources.
There are a lot of great books. There are a lot of great
webinars and so forth. And Holly, he knows all of them,
so I highly recommend. It's really difficult for us as
we're trying to prepare for these interviews or the
applications to figure out like so many tabs open, too many
(10:24):
bookmarks like this. It has.
It's all there for you. Indeed.
And then I don't actually have the, I don't have the pocket
guide. I'm not going to.
Share that one. OK, Yeah.
So if you can share that one andthen I need to figure out how I
have these lovely little dropouts, but I don't actually
have the links. So I'll grab them while while
(10:46):
you're talking later. So Beth, they will, they will be
popping into the chat as we havea moment.
Let me pull that one out, Freddy.
I'm mad at you. He's like, we're all humans.
Like there's literally my puppy is my child.
(11:08):
He's just, he's a mess right nowbecause it was like his.
I don't know if anybody else experienced this.
You probably experienced this with your cats.
They have like a witching hour where they just.
Like all of. Them or they go crazy and they
tear stuff up. That's what he's doing right
now. What's his name?
Oh, that's Freddie. Freddie is his name.
Excellent. All right, so let's get started
(11:31):
with some questions. And as I said earlier, you guys
are welcome to throw in the chatfollow up questions that you
have and we'll just start to build a conversation.
So the first question I wanted to ask Holly was really a big
picture question because as she talked about earlier, she has
nearly 20 years of experience inlearning and development.
So corporate learning and development and also higher Ed
(11:53):
learning and development. And I'm wondering what changes
you've seen over time in how interviews have just been
conducted, What kinds of questions are being asked and
what the trends are? Yeah, I would say over time,
like when I was transitioning out of teaching into higher Ed,
there was, it was like a dime a dozen.
(12:14):
The finding the instructional technology or instructional
design jobs is really super difficult, but it wasn't as
competitive as it is nowadays. You know, we talked about this
on the podcast recently about the market being saturated and
you know, you were talking aboutyour thing of saturation
different ways. And I think of the different
ways too, is like it's just morepeople who are qualified for the
(12:37):
roles. Like people are very, you're
seeing my. I know.
I just texted them like I'm getting you can get it.
Get the dog. That's stuff all over the floor.
But it's like you're competing with people who are on the same
(12:58):
level as you or maybe, you know,have more experience than you.
There's not going to be this sort of situation where, you
know, I could apply for a role in higher education back in 2013
and I may or may not have all the experience, but they would
take a chance on me. That's not really happening
anymore. There aren't the like, I'm going
(13:18):
to take a chance on Holly because I talked to her.
I've, I've, I've seen some of her work.
I think she can do it. You know, we're going to give
her time to, to upskill. We're going to give her that
time to, to be proficient. But seems like nowadays
everybody just wants you to just.
Start. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
There's no, there's no training in learning and development.
(13:39):
Yeah, it's funny, isn't it's kind of kind of ironic, you
know, and that's actually as I'msaying that that's one of the
questions I ask is how many months, how many days?
What is their their own boardingplan look like their training
plan. So that's one question I would
encourage you to ask is like, what is the time to proficiency
for, you know, somebody like myself coming in, like I asked
(14:00):
that a recently an interview andthey said, well, you're going to
shadow me for a couple weeks andthen we're just going to let you
go and, and start the position because you have the experience,
which is a good thing and a bad thing in the sense like 2 weeks
isn't a lot of time to kind of get familiar with the systems
and all the different things. But also too, if I'm shattering
(14:21):
a person who's already doing it,I feel like that's very much,
you know, tied into like this iswhat's really happening every
day in that role. But going back to the saturation
thing, it's saturated in the sense that there's tons of
people who are qualified for theroles.
So you have to stand out and I did a I guess episode about that
(14:41):
recently. So one of the question, one of
the conversations we're seeing in the chat is people talking
about how many more interviews the process takes outside of
education. Is that something that you're
seeing, we're seeing more interviews or has it been pretty
consistent? I've seen, so I've seen, I've
(15:01):
actually seen more depending upon the level of competition
that's, you know, for the roles they get thousands of applicants
and they get very well qualifiedapplicants.
They're going to put, it feels like they're going to put you
through more some rigorous things to do, you know, and I've
also seen like it's more common nowadays for them to give you a
task related to the position to complete to make sure like, you
(15:23):
know, people, I'm not going to say people do this, but they
don't tell the truth all the time.
OK, So they want you to prove that you can do what you say you
can do. So there may be a related task
that's kind of abbreviated in the sense that it's not a full
like instructional design project or it's just something
where your project management, all that stuff.
(15:44):
But I think it's, I think that people are really, they're
really getting frustrated, myself included, by the number
of rounds. And what I see this as is, is
that the company is fearful thatthey're going to hire somebody
that is going to fit and it costthem money.
Every time they hire somebody and then they leave, there's
high turnover there. So pay attention to those things
(16:05):
too. Also, they just want to make,
they also want to make sure thatthey're getting the right people
in there so that they do stay. So it's kind of it's kind of a
double edged sword when you think about it.
I actually interviewed, I think it was about a year ago for a
company. I went through 6 rounds and I
was a finalist and they kept me on the hook because they had
(16:25):
somebody internally they wanted to hire and it was terrible.
I had to wait the whole weekend.I emailed, I emailed the lady,
the recruiter. I said OK, so what's going on?
You know what, have they hired anybody yet?
What's the word? You know, I was emailing them
and asking them what was the status and she, it didn't
message me till Monday morning, which we all know that causes
(16:47):
anxiety in itself, the waiting period between the different
interviews. And then they're like, no,
somebody else. We hired somebody internally.
And that's another thing too to mention is that if you make it
through all these rounds and youget to a point where it's like
you're one of three or, or whatever and you don't get the
role, they're probably hiring somebody internally.
(17:09):
It's not you, it's not you. It's them.
It really is. And once you get to that stage,
it can be so, so challenging to figure out who to hire because
everybody is so well qualified, so.
You. Have an internal, you at least
have some security there. But I think what you're pointing
out, we, we, we talk a lot aboutthe anxiety that job seekers
(17:29):
face, but there's a lot of anxiety in the company side too,
because it's kind of like datingfeels like a very big decision
for a lot of people. There are a couple of
interesting conversations going on in the chat.
Some of these we're going to getto later, but I want to pull
out, pull out one topic because it's something I was thinking
about too. So I get a ton of questions and
(17:51):
I know you do too, about what presenting your portfolio looks
like during an interview. And we're also getting a lot of
questions around tasks specifically like are they done?
Is it something you do beforehand or is it something
they're asking you to do on the spot?
So can you just kind of talk about some of the ways you're
seeing people ask you to prove what you can do are really
(18:14):
because they're also, as you said earlier, they're not just
assessing that you can do it, they're assessing that you're
the one who did it and they wanted sure.
How much of it did you do yourself versus AI versus your
colleagues? Right.
I think one of the things and I'm seeing what's going on in
chat is about the, the fear of like they're getting work for
free. And I make sure right off the
bat that if they tell me, good companies will tell you that
(18:37):
this task, this isn't going to be used anywhere.
This is simply used as part of the interview process and we
just want to evaluate your skillset.
So I would ask that because I have far too many times where
people come back to me and they would say like coaching clients,
Then they would say, well, they took my work.
I saw it a few months later, which I and I am baffled by
(18:59):
that. So because a lot of companies
make you sign an NBA and when you're interviewing or if you're
you're getting past certain rounds because they're going to
be sharing more and more about the company with you, make sure
that just say that. And I love the fact that.
And she put, wait, Amy put watermarking, which I think is
important. Or you share it as a resource.
(19:20):
If you're sharing something out like a drag link, you make it
unavailable after that or you make it available for a certain
amount of time so that they don't have access to that
anymore or after the interview. So yeah, people are tricky.
But again, the good companies, and I do want to mention this,
Chelsea, because a lot of the companies and jobs you share,
they will tell you the whole process and they will lay it
(19:41):
out, apply for those jobs right away because that tells you
something about the company, of the culture of the company.
They have respect for the peoplethat they're hiring, their
employees. They want to make, they want to
set you up for success. They want you to know they're
not keeping any secrets. They're very transparent.
They want to know right away, once you know right away what
you're going to be in for if you're going through the
(20:02):
interview process. I've seen I've seen a lot more
of those things mentioned in jobdescriptions lately than I have
in the past too. Yes, I think there's been a lot
more conversation around the thecandidate experience,
particularly when candidates arejust getting, they're applying
so frequently and not hearing back.
(20:22):
And so I think that that is having the an official back, the
official impact of having recruiters and hiring managers
think how do we improve this process?
There's still a lot of work to be done, but that got those
great job descriptions are one way that I see it as well.
Absolutely. So let's kind of step back.
So you, let's just say I'm goingto interview you for a learning
(20:44):
development position. How do you start preparing for
this interview? Yeah, you have to find something
that definitely makes you stand out.
And one of the things that I'll go back before you even get the
interview, one of the things I mentioned in a recent podcast
episode, I'm doing like this. Ask Holly segment now where I do
(21:05):
15 minutes of like answering a question and I go very next
episode, I go deeper into it. So one of the even before you
get to the interview, one of thethings I said to stand out is
because we have this plethora oflike all these different
documents. We have portfolio, we have
professional references, we haveour resume, we have I don't know
what whatever else you built thewebsite you there.
(21:27):
There's just tons of stuff for sharing.
But one of the things that everybody's sharing though, so
you're not, you're just sitting and I did a TikTok about this.
You're sitting in a pile of a pile of resumes.
But how does yours become the shining star or how do you stand
out? So one of the things I'm like,
there's got to be something unique that you can do that
(21:49):
makes you stand out. And one of the, there's two
things I'll share. The first one is making a video
that you link to in your resume by yourself about what you've
done professionally about. You know, my whole world
revolves around learning and development.
I don't know about everybody else or for people already in
the position, but I drive past abillboard or I go to a coffee
shop or I go to the local library.
(22:12):
And I'm like, how do all these processes work?
Like I think deeply about even going to a restaurant.
I think deeply about like, how does my work get from the
computer to the kitchen to the kitchen?
They know, you know, like, that's how my brain works.
So I would do a video about likehow learning development
encompasses my life, not saying is my life, but it it touches a
lot of different pieces. This makes you more human.
(22:36):
The resume is a very static document.
It's I'm like I'm reading your, you know, your journey.
It's great. You have a lot of experience,
but I don't I want to know more about you then.
So that's a good one. Keep it less than 3 minutes.
Do something quick. Throw a throw a prompt in a
ChatGPT. Get a quick script, don't make
(22:57):
it like it doesn't have to be Hollywood studio performance and
then include that link in your resume.
Also, the next one, which is something I just started doing,
which I really, really love and I'm sharing all my secrets now
is I asked. So you know, on LinkedIn, we
have recommendations that peoplecan, you can type, type
recommendations for people. Ask for recommendations.
(23:19):
I'm like, you know what? Those are boring too.
Like I'm not going to read through like I know that you
know, such and such copy paste of this from chat GBTI know they
mean that they're authentic about me, but I asked people who
are my most my best references. I said, can you please record a
video? Here's the script and it's a
video recommendation about how they work with you, what they
(23:40):
think of you, you know, working together.
Obviously you're not going to pick people who are going to say
something about it. You're going to pick people who
are going to be honest and genuine and talk about the work
that you've done. So those two things are going to
make you stand out initially just before you even get the
interview. And then when you get into the
interview process, I think people, as far as prepping is
(24:02):
concerned, like the nerf start as soon as the interview is
scheduled. As soon as you schedule the
interview, you're like, Oh my God, I got, I got to practice, I
got to study. It's like studying for the big
test. One of the things I like to do
is find the company page. I like to see if they have some
sort of strategic plan or they have like accessibility
information or if they, you know, there may be things you
(24:24):
can just tell right off the bat that there there's gaps there.
And I asked them a question about something that's on my
website. I prepare a question in advance
and I say I have seen your business plan, I have seen your
strategic plan. I have seen what you're learning
in development team is thinking about doing in the next five
years. And I, I asked them a question
(24:45):
about that and they're like, like she's, you know, she's done
her research, but that also too gives you an insider's
perspective into what's happening there.
And like, if they don't have a plan, do you want to work there?
Especially like, you know, it gives you information too.
So I was saying prepping for theinterview, find something that
(25:09):
you know you can talk to and find common ground when you're
in the interview. But on the other side of that, I
like to encourage people to be confident because you are
assessing that company in the interview just as much as
they're assessing you. Like, I know we all want money.
I know we want to make millions.If you want to make millions,
(25:30):
don't go on L&B because it's nothappening.
There's no sales going to sales,right?
But we're doing this because we have some, some sort of passion
about it. So really just make sure that
you are not putting all the responsibility.
Like, I just need this job. I'm just going to take it
because far, far too many times.And Chelsea, I know you've heard
these horror stories. People have taken the role and
(25:52):
they hated it and then they werejumping again because they just
took the role That was now don'tget me wrong, there's bridge
jobs. You know, there's things that
you can do is you can have a jobfor like one to two years, stuff
like that. But I want people to be
confident, like especially educators, because we come out
of the classroom with all this trauma that we have to deal with
(26:12):
before we even jump into something new.
So be confident of yourself and be like, like, what would you
ask somebody on a first date? Like, you know, I want to know
if they're like a crazy cat person not in Chelsea, you know,
like I want to know, I want to know like, what are they see in
the future? You know, like, think of the
questions you ask somebody when you're on a first date.
(26:33):
It's different in your 20s than it is in your 40s.
And that's goes the same for like jobs too, because you're
looking for different things at those times in your life.
So confidence is key. Absolutely.
One last thing I'll say is that I saw like some questions that
were coming in about the STAR method and like writing down
stuff and answering questions, and we'll get into that.
(26:55):
But I would just say think back in all of your roles and just
have prep situations you've beenin and have those ready to go.
There's nothing that says you can't look off a piece of paper
in an interview. There's nothing that says you
can't have it up on the screen as a prompt like I scripted out
for this particular presentation.
Just I have notes. So I just remember everything.
(27:17):
So like certain situations on Amazon where I work with
difficult SMEs, or I work with difficult faculty in higher
education or something I built from scratch or something.
I influenced something, you know, something that I changed
about a process. So have those ready to go.
Then you won't even have to think.
Write down the keywords of the situation so that you just
remember it. Indeed.
And I also, one of the things I'll, I'll kind of echo there is
(27:39):
people get really stressed when something goes slightly wrong in
an interview or they think I answered that question poorly.
I've interviewed people who havebombed a single question, but
they've been fantastic everywhere else and they we pass
them along because we're really focused on everything.
So I think a lot of times that confidence you were talking
(28:01):
about and being able to really relax and say I don't have to be
perfect, I just have to be humanand really communicate myself.
That authenticity and that confidence gets you everywhere,
if I'm being honest, like we're just not nobody that works in
the company is perfect. Perfect doesn't exist.
Like they're, they're absolutely100% looking for the Unicorn.
(28:23):
And I'm like, if you have like 50 to 60% of the qualifications,
apply for the role. People are already deterred by
the fact that they're like, well, I don't have this or I
don't have that or I need to go and then learn articulate real
quick. No, that's not the case.
You need to just apply anyway. Apply anyway.
Particularly because there's so much boilerplate and they're
like, you have to have it, but then the job is working with
(28:45):
PowerPoint slides. Hey this is way beyond this is
like I got this, this is easy. Yeah, definitely trust the job
description, but don't believe it.
I ask the questions. You need to ask the questions.
Exactly. And this, I think a lot of this
is really geared towards doing your research and personalizing
(29:05):
how you approach an interview for each company.
And it's a lot of work, but whenyou get to the interview stage,
that means they think you're qualified.
You really want to show fit, youwant to show engagement, you
really want to differentiate yourself.
Exactly. That's how I started with.
So one of the things that I wanted to talk a little bit
about is some of the differencesbetween corporate and university
(29:28):
interview processes. And the reason I wanted to talk
about this is for those of you who are teachers, corporate or
sorry, corporate, higher Ed can often be a great bridge job to
get into corporate because a lotof times the higher Ed, higher
Ed companies, the higher Ed organizations are looking for
people I'm. Not going to You're not wrong,
Kelsey. That's also true.
(29:49):
Yes, they're there. Yes, there's a lot of money in
there, but so these these higherEd companies are looking for
relevant skills, whereas the corporate is often looking for
the relevant skills and some business experience.
So can. You talk a little bit about.
How your experience has been differently?
Yeah. So higher education, like you're
saying, is a great bridge into first somebody coming out of the
classroom because higher education is built on pedagogy,
(30:12):
adult learning theory like you, you know those things already.
You're aware of those different types of theories and
modalities. And it operates like when you're
in a classroom, you're you're working with people in the
classroom. You're just not at the forefront
of the classroom. You're not the you're not the
teacher you're going to be working to support.
You're going to kind of be in the supporting role, like in a,
in a play like the backstage people.
(30:34):
So I would say with higher education and, and one thing I
do want to be transparent about is notoriously higher education
salaries are lower than in a corporate LND space.
So they're about 15 to 20,000 lower, unfortunately, but
they're, they're significantly higher than teaching because
teaching does not teachers do not get paid, but they should be
paid in our culture, in our society.
(30:55):
So higher education, like I said, it is a good jumping off
point, but don't expect that you're going to be jumping like,
you know, thousands of dollars in salary range, but it's a
comfort area. So it's an area that, you know,
it's an area that you feel like you can grow in and you're going
to work with other people who are former teachers.
You're going to be in a culture where people who have
(31:17):
transitioned out of education just so you know that I don't
know anybody. I mean, I know it's about to
happen because of Gen. Z and like what's happening in
higher education and our industry and AII don't know
anybody that said I want to be an instructional designer when I
grow up. That was their first job, I
don't think. It existed it.
(31:37):
Didn't exist. Yeah.
So you're not going to meet people who say, I know, I've
known since I was in 8th grade. I wanted to be an instructional
designer. Not, not at this point, but
maybe later on, because now there's bachelor's degrees in
instructional designs, which didn't previously exist.
So you're among people who are doing the same thing that you're
doing that are making the transition.
(31:58):
Like I said, higher education isa comfort zone.
But I also want to caution you, I'm a cautionary tear of higher
education. Just like K to 12.
It's got a lot of red tape. There's a lot of bureaucracy.
It moves notoriously slower thancorporate.
There's a lot of hoops you have to jump through to get things
done. Innovation is often stagnated by
that red tape. But like I said, you can make
(32:20):
your own way. I always say, like when I get
into a role, I'm like, what can I do here that's different than
what everybody else has been doing?
You know, whether that's improving A ticketing process or
that's, you know, transitioning from one Ed tech to a different
software for for the school and laying out the plan.
But higher education is definitely a comfort.
And I would encourage you if youdon't feel like you're ready to
(32:42):
jump into corporate to go there first.
Because higher education, while they are business, they're
focused on learning. They understand learning.
They understand what learning is.
Now corporate on the other hand,do we want you want to pause for
going to corporate? Let's see.
Oh, the high level politics then.
(33:02):
Higher end. Yeah, huge.
Oh my word, huge like you. It's it's so interesting.
When I worked at UNBCI, ran for the faculty Senate.
I had been there. I I'm an alum of there.
I'm from Maryland and I was like, you know, I've been here a
couple years. I know a lot of different people
across campus. I'm just I'm going to nail the
seat. Didn't get it.
(33:24):
Didn't get it. Like it was like then a couple
weeks later the president emailed and he's like, somebody
dropped out, but you're the nextone.
And I was like, it's very political and I just wanted to
be on the Senate. To like have a voice for my
particular area of the institution is crazy political.
It's crazy cool. So one of the questions we had
(33:44):
earlier was really specific about whether you're hearing
anything hearing questions aboutAI, but I wanted need to think
about that question. But also kind of in general,
what are the questions that you're hearing right now that
you think might surprise people or the thing might not really be
preparing for? I think one of the things that
might surprise people is like how much AI is actually
(34:06):
impacting the position right now.
It's not impacting, it's a part of it, you know, like asking the
questions around, well, like howdo you use AI?
What is your, what is your intention?
Or have you ever built a policy for your L&D group around AI?
And what does that look like? I'm like, whoa, like I've never
built like a formal policy around, you know, like when you
(34:27):
think of a hire, they have tons of policies.
Companies have policies, but just thinking about like this is
what's going to be happening as AI continues to evolve and think
about the things that are going to be impacting us as
instructional designers or LND professionals.
And I think one of the things islike sifting through what's the
truth as to what's the myth whenit comes to AI and how it's
(34:52):
going to impact these roles. So that's a question.
I was like, I've kind of talked about policy before, but I've
never formally made something, you know, talking about data a
lot more. There's a lot more around data
because in higher education and in corporate data is very
important to prove that the outcomes that you're trying to
(35:14):
reach are happening. So just like business schools
and corporate higher education has accreditation things.
So they have to kind of prove that I think data is a is a
surprising question to me too, because as an instructional
designer, the only data that I've ever looked at is like for
courses I've worked on or courses I was teaching.
But now you're looking at it across the whole organization or
(35:35):
the whole institution. And then they're like, well,
what do you do with that data? What if the data is it's not
performing? Then they asked you, like
somebody said something about the multi stage question, like
what do you do if the data is showing that you did the screen
experience and it's not working?What do you do?
How do you shift? How do you pivot right away?
That that stuff makes me want tocry because I'm like, how do you
(35:56):
prepare for that? It's just, it's like, it's like
you just, you know, you just have to take a deep breath and
take, take one of those scenarios that you wrote down
and try to answer the question as best as you can.
But those ones intimidate me. They intimidate me for sure.
And they're getting there. They're just shifting.
It's not like, OK, well, tell usabout you.
(36:17):
Well, tell us about your experience.
Well, tell us, you know, let's go through your resume.
It's not like that anymore. And I know you've been on the
interview, you, you've interviewed people before too.
And some of the questions that came in before our session were
around like what happens when you get faced with one of these
questions? But from the interview side, a
lot of times we're not looking for you to actually have the
(36:40):
answer. We don't necessarily.
You may not have written an AI policy, but we want to see how
you think what is what is the way you approach that and
unfamiliar scenario? What is the way you approach
policy development? And so a lot of times if you
can't answer the civic question,really turn it into thinking
about your process and talking about what what you do that's
(37:03):
similar. Because if you're pivoting,
people know you're pivoting and they're going to be they're not
necessarily going to be expecting you to answer the
question the same way that to people who have already worked
in the field answered it. So one of the things I think is
most of the time the intervieweris on your side.
They're not going to have calledyou in unless they're actually
(37:24):
really interested in hearing from you.
Exactly. You're exactly right.
And you know, I think we put toomuch weight behind this, this
whole process. And that's what really does
stress us out about especially teachers there.
I know there's a lot of educators in the room and you're
like, I can't tell you how many teachers I've come across and
they're like, well, I'm not going to include my teaching
experience on my resume. I'm like, why?
(37:46):
Well, obviously we've seen some companies names that remain
unmentioned, but like we, we don't hire former educators
versus stupid on their part. But it's like you're thinking
about it in a way like, Oh my God, that, you know, like I've
been in the classroom for 20 years.
This is all I've ever known. Like, and now I'm going to step
into something new. It's definitely, it's definitely
(38:07):
a transition and there's a lot of different things you have to
go through to deal with that transition.
But look what you did for 20 years.
Look what you did for 10 years. Why wouldn't you honor that
experience on your resume? Why don't you honor that
experience in talking about the processes that you did in the
classroom? Like listen, planning, unit
planning, creating assessments, activities like, you know,
(38:27):
dealing with the students and classroom management, like
project management is a part of part of all that data you had
grading. That's data.
So thinking about all those different things.
So there's been an interesting conversation going on that I've
been partially following, and it's a good question that I
don't have a great answer for, so I'm going to throw it on to
(38:47):
you. So one of the things I hear a
lot of times from people who area little bit older than me, So
Full disclosure, I'm in my mid 40s and I'm really thrilled to
have 20 years of experience because I'm like, yes, hi, I'm
now finally. But then we get people who are,
you know, they have an extra 10 years of experience and they
(39:09):
start to really get nervous about the job discrimination.
There was the work day lawsuit where they were actually
blocking people who were certainage, which is appalling.
And I can't wait for the discovery.
We're going to find so much out.But from from a practical
standpoint, the more experience you have, you're really bringing
in a lot of knowledge, knowledgeand expertise.
(39:30):
But the question is, is there that bias?
And if there is that bias, what are some strategies people can
use to combat it? Yeah, don't apply for entry
level stuff. That's one.
They're gonna be really biased towards you if you're applying
for entry level. So cuz you're not entry level,
they're just going to. It's not going to have anything
to do with age. It's going to have to do with
your experience. I mean which can be correlated
(39:52):
with age, but don't apply for entry level stuff.
I tell people coming out of classroom when you have so many
years experience like you are definitely mid to higher.
You're in the mid, the higher range, and you should be looking
for roles. You should be looking for
leadership roles. You should be looking for roles
that are like have senior in thetitle or director in the title.
You know, and I, I know people are going to say, but I don't
(40:13):
have any experience in instructional design, but there
are things that you can do to prepare yourself for these
positions, like using some of the resources I share.
We're just talking to people like in in the roles.
I would just secure you from applying to entry level roles
thinking that you have to start over because I think people like
if I apply for an entry level role, people will probably I
(40:34):
would, I would expect them to laugh right now.
I would expect them to be like, I don't understand why she did
this. She must be really desperate for
something. But again, it goes back to
honoring that experience. And I've had plenty of people,
sorry, my voice is kind of getting after the work day.
I've had plenty of people tell me that they found great
companies, some of these smallercompanies, the ones that you
post about Chelsea that have honored their teaching
(40:56):
experience and use their experience there to propel them
into these leadership roles. So maybe you don't start as a
senior, but you might start in amid level position and then like
a year later you're in that director role because you've
learned things. Yeah, a lot.
So if you don't want to manage people like a senior
instructional designer, you may or may not be managing
(41:16):
instructional designers. But if you don't want to manage
people, then you're going to limit yourself to just like the,
the mid roles that require no supervision or manager
experience, which I totally get.Managing is a lot like you're
just managing people. You're managing people all day
long and like you can't get any of your work done.
I I totally get that. But you can find stuff that's,
(41:40):
you know, you've had a few rolesout there on on Skip that have
been like director of professional services, I think
was one of them. And I posted a director level
rule today that I'm pretty sure didn't have management.
Experience. Yeah.
Like, like they don't, it's kindof like being like ACEO, like a
CIO, like a chief academic, likeyou're in a very top level
(42:01):
position. You're not necessarily C-Suite,
but you're, you're above to where you have people who are
doing the managing. You're just kind of delegating
and you're paying attention moreto what's happened at the top.
And then you're sharing that information out with the rest of
the people that are working withyou.
But yeah, there, there are some roles where you can be at the
top level and you're not managing people.
(42:23):
You're gonna have to interact with people.
I'm not gonna lie. You're not gonna be a hermit.
We're not an IT. We're not gonna be a hermit
center. It's sitting behind the
computer. You're gonna have to work with
people. But I got away from that
question a little bit. It's more like what was the
initial question. Yeah.
Well, I think we covered it well.
We were initially talking about the whether people like age
(42:44):
discrimination, but I love that advice to not apply for entry
level roles because a lot of times we get focused on the job
description saying tech skills. But I noticed a lot of the roles
I post actually frame it a little differently.
They will say looking for adult learning experience and that's a
real clue. But that's a great job for you
(43:06):
to apply for. So I would definitely, yes,
there's definitely age discrimination.
There's no way we can say there isn't.
But also don't sell yourself short.
I love how you're saying value your experience because.
There's a, there's a, there's a whole episode I did on, on where
I did it by myself because I was, I was feeling like you'll
(43:27):
notice that I'm kind of like Taylor Swift.
Like when I'm feeling something,I'm doing a podcast episode
about it. I'm writing about it.
I'm like, so I did an episode recently where knowing your
worth and your value, because oftentimes times, and I will say
this to former teachers, we sellour shelves short because we
think we don't deserve it when we actually do, you know, like
especially being a woman in thisindustry, being somebody who's
(43:51):
worked in corporate with Amazon with I think one time I, I
looked at our leadership, it wasall male.
I was like, what is going on here?
Like we need a, we need a gallonhere.
You know, we need somebody else,somebody different, some
diversity, but I knowing your worth is something that comes
with like moving away from the imposter rendrum.
You're going to have it. It's not going to go away
(44:13):
completely, but knowing that youneed this salary to beat
survive. You need to put away some from
retirement to sustain your current lifestyles.
Like the confidence is key. And I think that's one of the
things that resonates with people is like, I'm very
confident on the screen too. Like I have applied, like people
(44:33):
say, I've applied to hundreds and hundreds of jobs and I've,
I've, I've done that too in recent months and I have gotten,
I was like everybody does. I know this role is for me.
Like I'm going to get this role because I have all the
experience necessary. And guess what?
I got a rejection e-mail within 30 minutes.
I know it's an ATS system, but confidence and knowing your
(44:55):
worth, please don't, please don't sell yourself short
because we don't, don't get to do this again.
We don't get to like, I don't want you having to jump into a
rule that you don't like or you're not getting paid enough
and then you're like, oh, I haveto find a second job or most of
us do have different side hustles and things like that.
And I think that one of the things that I think I'm kind of
(45:17):
following the conversation here,we often think hiring managers
don't understand that because we're not getting interviews.
Going back to something Holly was talking about earlier on,
when you're any time you're interviewing people, you've got
about 50% of the people who apply who are halfway qualified
for the position. So a lot of times they're not
(45:40):
making the decision about, oh, this person has teaching
experience, I don't want to hirethem.
They're making the decision of I've got 5 people who have this
experience that I listed as a preferred experience, so I'm
going to start with them. So one of the things with
imposter syndrome, don't say just because I'm not getting
results, it means that I'm applying to the wrong jobs.
(46:02):
Keep up on until a lot of those stretch jobs because you're
going to find the right 1. And I think Holly's advice to
focus on the smaller companies spot on.
I was talking to someone, she was a teacher a couple of years
ago. Now she's sales director and
she, you know what she's doing, She's saving roles for teachers.
She's like, this role is only for teachers.
(46:23):
So there are a lot of people in the industry who are trying to
help people transition as well, so.
We're all in. We want, we want more of us in
here because it's making the sector better, whether that's
corporate, higher education, government, like you're here.
We want to bring other tiers on who are ready for something
different, but still make a change because teachers have,
(46:45):
they have this crazy, I don't know, it's kind of like nurses
like you do the show because youhave something innate in you
that teaching gives you and thatyou want to give back and you
don't expect anything in return.And that's kind of like what LND
is. Yes, I agree.
And one of the things I found, and that we're seeing it in this
chat too, learning and development, is we are the kind
(47:06):
of people we get together and somebody says, oh, I'm looking
at this and they're like, oh, I can help you with that.
And yeah, you get all these resources.
And it's really a beautiful thing.
Like I can't even keep up with the entire job.
So it's wonderful. So we are running into a little
bit of the end of this session. So what I really do is ask you
one final question and then if there are some burning
(47:29):
questions, we haven't gotten to you because again, I've I've
definitely missed some things inthe chat.
Throw a couple of burning questions and and we'll try to
get at least one or two of them.Yeah, I I noticed one right
away. I just want to point out the
recruiters and the hiring managers.
The recruiters don't necessarilyknow instructional designer
learning and development. Most of the recruiters you're
dealing with are just recruiters.
(47:50):
So don't think they know about learning development.
OK. So don't assume that we have
like they know anything about the role or what you're going to
be doing. And you know, we can talk about
recruiters another time, but there's some good ones and
there's some bad ones, just likegoing on dates and stuff.
But don't put all your like all the recruiters going to, you
know, the recruiter is like the key to everything.
No, it's going to be you. So I just want to mention that.
(48:13):
Yeah, and recruiters are screening.
So what that means you want to be able to say, oh, you're
asking a question about my adultlearning experience.
Let me tell you about my adult learning experience.
Right now it's very transactional, yes.
So the question that I really want to ask is I have been
hearing a lot of really bad stats lately.
And one of them is that 70% of people get jobs through
(48:35):
networking. And I, I, I question the 70%,
but I also think some of it, yeah, some of it is like, what
are we defined as networking? So the reason I wanted to ask
you this question, Holly, is that you have this extensive
network. So you know everybody in the
industry and you have this fantastic learning and
development podcast. Everyone is listening to you and
(48:58):
you have a huge network. You also have like 50,000
LinkedIn dollars. So I'm curious whether or not
for you you're thinking, yes, networking is how I get a job,
but it sounds like you're still applying to jobs just like
everybody else. So tired about how networking
how you approach. Networking.
First of all, I want to say thatthat network was built Bloods 1
(49:19):
tiers 50 to 50,000 over the pastfive years.
There is no is not easy to network.
However, when I think about likethis whole process is like we're
all human. We all have to connect with each
other and know different things and know different people.
And the one thing to me that hasn't changed in any sector
(49:43):
through the application process or looking for roles or
different things is that you have to know somebody to know
somebody. That is a thing now.
I don't think it's 70%. I can't say that for sure.
I think it might be a little bitless than that.
But I will say that if you know people, there are things, think
(50:05):
of it like this, This is how I think of it.
Like think of Zillow, like the real estate platform.
There are houses that are pre market that you don't even see
come onto the market. So there's pre market jobs.
Like I had somebody post something in a group that they
hadn't posted on LinkedIn yet looking for contract IDs.
So there are those types of things.
(50:25):
So you want to know where to be to get those get into those
situations. I'm not saying that's the only
way to get the jobs. And then you of course, you have
the houses that are for sale, the jobs that are like
everybody, like what's on Chelsea site, what's on
LinkedIn, what's on on deed or whatever.
You know, whoever you follow outon LinkedIn world that does the
job posting and like you see allthe different ones and every
(50:47):
those are all up for grabs for everybody.
But also too through networking and having conversations with
people. I had somebody tell me recently
they said there's going to be anupcoming like role, you know,
you know, be on the lookout likeI'm saying that pre sales stuff,
you know, would you be interested and possibly applying
(51:07):
for the job? So if you've worked in previous
positions that might have like an L&D feel or touch, I could go
back to those people and be like, has anything opened Or do
you think is there a possibilitythat I can do some contract work
with you all? Because it doesn't just come
through like knowing the person.And Chelsea and I were talking
about this previously before we started the session about coffee
(51:29):
chats. I don't know how I feel about
coffee chats. People ask me for coffee chats
all the time. I started my networking out
doing that and it worked really well.
But now it feels like something that's transactional and people
just, they either keep asking for more free stuff or they
ghost me, or they're not really.They don't really read my
LinkedIn or they don't know me. And that's the thing too, when
(51:50):
you're networking, you should definitely do some research from
the person. I've had people come in and
think that like I worked before I even worked in marketing, that
I was a marketer and I'm like no, did you or that you're
hiring or that I'm hiring? Yes, or that I'm hiring yeah.
Or that I have some tie to theseroles.
(52:11):
So I think networking is important for you.
Linkedin's got a lot getting a lot of bad, getting a bad
reputation lately. I don't know why L and DI don't
feel like we're there, but maybein other sectors you are.
So you definitely need to know somebody that knows somebody
because we're so giving and we share so much information with
each other that there's going tobe a job where you're going to
(52:33):
be like there haven't been 1000 people that apply to it.
It's just going to be a small company that uses a Google form
to express your interest or to apply for the role.
So that's my take. Yeah.
And I think I agree with a lot of that.
I think we can also think about networking.
Somebody was talking a little bit about this, the cold, the
cold messaging. A lot of times creating a
(52:54):
conversation in the the commentscan really be format networking.
And then you know, you build relationships.
Like actually, I think that's probably how we started chatting
and then we started chatting in person.
So thinking about networking notas this big task.
I don't have to have a 20 minutecoffee chat.
I just have to make a connection.
I think that's a great approach.Yeah, don't go into LinkedIn
(53:16):
like, you know, like so many people and I say this like we
don't have we don't necessarily have connections or ends to the
jobs we're posting. We're kind of we're sourcing
them. Some people go I'm interested,
I'm like, well then apply, you know, or they, they, they put
they either message you directlyI'm like, can you review my
resume and they're asking for free services or they're like
(53:37):
they put their resume in the comments and they want people to
you know there's there's certainplaces for those things there's
certain groups and things that you can do that and that's not
in the comments section of somebody who applies for.
Well, I do love seeing it though, when somebody posts a
role in LMD and then people are like, I'm interested, I applied.
I can't wait to talk to you. I love that.
I love seeing the attention around like what a job gets
(53:57):
because that's just getting moreand more qualified candidates.
But don't be like, I'm interested.
Here's my resume. What should I do to fix it?
Or, you know, interview me now, like that kind of stuff.
People are, people are so bored.There's a there's a certain set
of rules you have to follow to kind of get into the network.
Well, it's like what you said earlier with your video, you
(54:19):
want to see the person behind it.
And so when you see that comment, you're getting to know
the person behind it, but add something to that comment, talk
about project you've done or something like that.
That really gets them excited. Oh, excellent.
Tony, I posted a couple of director roles, but I, I, I wish
you luck with all of them. So last word, Holly, I would
have a broad open-ended question.
(54:40):
What do you think is the final word that you would say about
interviewing? We've talked about so many
different aspects of it, everything from the emotional
side to some of the tactical strategy side.
What do you want to close with? I really just want everybody to
remember that you're more than just a piece of paper.
You're more than a portfolio, You're more than whatever
(55:04):
project you did in the past and failed at.
To me, like when you're looking for a new job, it's because
you've hit a point where you're either, no, I don't want to say
bored, but you're looking for more of a challenge.
You're looking for something different that is going to make
your life better. And I want people to know that
(55:24):
you are so much more than that. Those pieces of papers and those
professional resources. And I'll tell you this, I have
gone through resumes and been onhiring committees and I have
picked people like this is goingto be the top candidate from the
resume. And guess what?
They were terrible. They were.
Terrible. So that piece of paper doesn't
necessarily say who you are. Everything in your power.
(55:46):
Get those video recommendations,do a video yourself.
Step out of your comfort zone. You are worth it.
You are 100% worth it and you should not settle for anything
less at this stage. Many of you at this stage in
your career, you deserve something better.
And if you talk to me and Chelsea, we will tell you where
to go. There are other places like you
(56:07):
can find roles. Create like the last thing I'll
say is create opportunity for yourself.
Don't rely on the corporations and the powers that be to make
you think that you need to have a job in in certain areas.
Create your own path like I create.
I've created roles like the director of growth marketing,
Shawna created that just for me.Like I didn't do anything that
(56:31):
wasn't a posted role. So please, I know you're worth
you are more than just a piece of paper and go for it.
You got it. And you got it's a fantastic way
to end Beth. This is Holly's Holly's podcast
that I popped up. It's the add up learning and
development. Here's their Yeah Add Up
learning and development podcast.
Yep, excellent podcast. I was aware I was missing, so
(56:53):
that's OK. Yeah.
So I love all of these comments that we're getting.
I'm glad people have found this useful.
I love listening to Holly and I seriously, I always write things
down because I'm like Holly on this.
There's more. I mean, we could probably do
another one of these, if I'm being honest.
Well. We've got a bunch of requests
for for them and also for a couple of just just asking
(57:15):
questions and which is nice because it means less prep for
us and we can still add value. Happy to jump on and do AQ and a
just the whole thing like a radio show.
Yeah, I I like that approach. So we will definitely keep that
in mind as. You're welcome everyone.
Have a great night afternoon. Yes.
So for those of you who are asking about the recording, as
(57:35):
soon as I hit stop on all this, an automatic e-mail goes out.
It's beautiful. I love automation of the
recording as well as some of thelinks that we shared too.
So you'll get Holly's LinkedIn, you'll get my LinkedIn.
And in particular, I can't remember now what I wrote, but I
think I shared each of these links on there.
(57:56):
So cool. Great.
Thank you all for coming and we really appreciate you spending
your evening with us. All right, I'm going to hit
pause. Good night.
I'm so I'm going to turn off thesession, but then we're still
audible. I learned last time.
OK, we have to go off the stage.Oh wait, you go Aza, how you do
(58:17):
it? Oh, but then we can't talk to
each other, right? Right.
This is a new system for those of you who are watching this at
any rate, I will say thank you Holly and have a have a lovely
night too. I'm going to yes.
It is like the after park. Yeah, where this is the after
show where we really get into the the good stuff.
(58:37):
Exactly. All the secrets.
All right, so I'm going to end it and then I think it's going
to kick us all off. So have a good night and good
night everyone else. That's a wrap for today's
episode of the Ed Up Learning and Development podcast.
I hope you picked up some inspiration, strategies, and
(58:58):
maybe even a spark of motivationto take with you on your own
journey. If you enjoyed this
conversation, don't forget to subscribe to our show so you
never miss an episode. And while you're there, go ahead
and give us a five star rating. It really helps more people in
the L&D community find us and join the conversation.
(59:19):
Until next time, remember my motto.
Speak it, build it, land it. Thanks for listening and I'll
catch you in the next episode. Hi, we're ispring, an
international team of e-learningenthusiasts who helped more than
60,000 clients across the globe succeed with better online
learning. Our two flagship solutions are
(59:40):
ispring Suite and ispring Learn LMS.
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