December 26, 2024 • 35 mins
Patrick Warren and David Spencer were best friends who vanished in 1996 from Birmingham, England. Boxing Day was the last time the eleven and thirteen-year-old boys were seen, after stopping at a petrol station. But they never made it home that night. Even more chilling is that a serial child predator lived in the area. Join us as we dive into the evidence and theories of Patrick and David’s fate.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
D (00:00):
Hey guys, welcome to the Eerie Side Podcast with your
hosts, D, Sophia, and Elena.
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(00:43):
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Okay, everybody.
Today, I am going to go througha case that's of Patrick Warren
and David Spencer.
Patrick Warren was born in 1985,and he was one of six children
(01:33):
in his family.
In 1996, he was 11 years old,and he stood 4'10" and had sandy
hair and light eyes.
He went by the nickname Patty.
According to his mother, he wasa funny boy who liked to tease
her.
His favorite sport was football,which is soccer.
(01:55):
By all accounts, he was anormal, playful boy.
David Spencer was born in 1983.
In 1996, he was 13 years old andhe stood 4'7" and had reddish
brown hair and brown eyes.
David was smart and streetwise,according to his teachers.
(02:15):
There's a bit of an elephant inthe room when it came to David.
While Patrick didn't get intotrouble, David did.
He got into fights and oftenresorted to violence to get his
point across.
He was removed from the normalschool system as a result of
this.
His family didn't believe theseissues were indicative of who
(02:36):
David was as a person.
Rather, they speak to the factthat he was ill equipped to
handle conflict in a healthyway.
He was a kid.
He got into trouble.
That does not mean he was lessvaluable or less deserving of
our attention.
On the evening of Boxing Day1996, which is December 26th,
(02:59):
and 28 years ago.
Elena (03:01):
What's Boxing Day?
D (03:04):
Boxing Day is a holiday that they celebrate in some countries
in Europe, and it's the dayafter Christmas.
Sophia (03:10):
I think they go into the ocean in their bathing suits,
right?
That's what I saw on theChristmas movie on Netflix.
It's a children's Christmasmovie that was just released.
It's a British one, and they allgo into the ocean the day after
Christmas for Boxing Day.
I think that's how theycelebrate it.
That's at least how theycelebrate it in the movie.
D (03:32):
I have no idea.
Elena (03:35):
I thought it had something to do with, the sport
of boxing.
D (03:38):
It has nothing to do with the sport of boxing.
Sophia (03:39):
You're definitely an American if you think that.
D (03:42):
On the evening of Boxing Day of 1996, which is December 26,
and 28 years ago, best friends,Patrick Warren, and David
Spencer left their WoodResidences, which is a large
housing estate of historicallyworking class families on the
edge of Birmingham, England, toplay outside.
(04:05):
Patrick left on his brand newbicycle, which had been a
Christmas present, while Davidwas on foot.
The boys had been spotted by apolice officer earlier that
afternoon playing with anothergroup of children in Meriden
Park, where they had been warnedby the officer not to play on
the frozen pond.
(04:25):
After returning home, they toldtheir parents of their plans to
visit one of Patrick's brothersthat evening.
In the morning, Derek Warren,another one of Patrick's
brothers, went looking for theboys the next day when he found
out they had not arrived.
Sophia (04:44):
I just want to make sure I understand the timeline.
So they went out and they wereat a park, and then they came
home and they told their parentsthey were going to go and look
for Patrick's brother.
They went to Patrick's house.
They were going to go look forPatrick's brother.
And since they left the house,no one has seen them.
D (05:00):
I think they each went to their own family's home, told
them they were going toPatrick's brother's that
evening.
Sophia (05:06):
So after they left their own houses.
D (05:10):
They were supposed to go to Patrick's brother.
I think they were planning onstaying there overnight.
Sophia (05:14):
Okay.
So that was the last time thatanyone has heard of them.
D (05:17):
When they left their home to go to Patrick's brother's house.
Elena (05:21):
How did you, how do you know that this is the last time
anyone's ever heard of them?
Sophia (05:25):
I guess I'm making an assumption.
Elena (05:28):
Do you know the story?
Sophia (05:29):
No, I don't actually.
I'm just making an assumption,but I just want to make sure I
understand.
Elena (05:33):
So you're spoiling it for everyone.
Sophia (05:34):
Where I am in the timeline.
I'm not spoiling it.
D (05:39):
The last known sighting of the boys was just after midnight
by a petrol station attendantwho gave them a packet of
biscuits.
The boys took off afterwards.
This was 12;45 AM and was thelast confirmed sighting of the
boys.
The petrol station attendantsaid she saw the boys walking
(05:59):
toward the local shoppingcenter.
So what happened was the boysdidn't go straight to Patrick's
brother.
They did a few other things andthen headed there.
In addition, they did have theboys leaving the petro station
on video.
When the boys didn't return totheir homes the next day, they
were reported missing.
(06:20):
The investigation was very lowlevel at first, a lot of door to
door questioning, and pleas tothe boys via interviews on TV
and in the newspaper.
But, as time stretched on,efforts grew more desperate and
concentrated.
The police initially treated theboys disappearance as a normal
(06:42):
missing person inquiry, butdespite no confirmed sightings
of them after Boxing Day, seniorofficers told the media that
there was no reason to supposethat they had come to any harm.
Elena (06:56):
Why did they treat it so like low level at first?
And why do they think that thereis like no harm?
Like, where is the evidence forthat?
D (07:05):
I will get into it.
Elena (07:06):
Oh, okay.
Okay.
D (07:08):
On December 27th, Patrick's brand new red Apollo bicycle was
found abandoned behind thepetrol station near the bins,
although the police did notrealize that it was his until
several weeks later.
Sophia (07:22):
Where was it again?
D (07:24):
The petrol station.
Sophia (07:26):
Oh, it was found behind the petrol station, which is
where they last saw them.
Okay.
Elena (07:28):
Will you get into why it took them so long?
D (07:31):
Why they realized it was the boys?
Elena (07:32):
Yeah.
D (07:34):
I don't know why it took them so long.
The boy's disappearance receivedlittle media attention beyond
the local press and what hasbeen cited as an example of
missing white girl syndrome.
However, the boy's faces wereamong the first to appear on
milk cartons in a groundbreakingcampaign launched by the
National Missing Person Helplinein April of 1997.
(07:57):
Just days after the boysdisappeared, 17 year old Nicola
Dixon was found raped andmurdered in a 8 miles away in
Sutton, Coldfield.
Though her killer was found andconvicted, the police say that
police resources and mediaattention between Christmas of
(08:18):
1996 and New Year's Day of 1997was dominated by the Dixon case.
Elena (08:25):
Okay, I see what's happening here.
Wow, that's very disappointingto say the least.
D (08:33):
Correct.
There's also more to it thanjust that.
Elena (08:36):
Oh, great.
D (08:38):
I'll be getting into it.
A few theories have beendiscussed when it comes to the
fate of Patrick and David.
As with most missing childrencases, there was the ever
present runaway theory.
If they were going to run away,why would Patrick dump his bike
at a petrol station?
It was his Christmas present.
(09:00):
It was a big present for him.
It was probably his mosttreasured possession.
I don't think he would have leftit within 24 hours of getting
it.
If he was going to run away, hewould take his bike, if nothing
else, to cover a lot of moreground.
Even in 1998, police thoughtthere was a possibility Patrick
(09:23):
and David may have gone toIreland on a teenage adventure.
Elena (09:28):
What?
D (09:29):
Although there was no evidence they went to Ireland.
Elena (09:33):
Obviously, because a couple of teenagers can't just
randomly get to Ireland.
D (09:38):
They're 11 and 13.
Only Patrick was 13.
Elena (09:41):
Also, they don't even have the money for that.
D (09:43):
Correct.
They had no money on them.
As time stretched on and theboys did not resurface, however,
this theory was written off asbeing extremely unlikely.
Professor David Wilson, acriminologist who studied the
police initial response to theboy's disappearance, concluded
(10:05):
that David and Patrick's workingclass background affected how
their case was handled.
And I quote,"If it had been twoboys from middle class Solihull
that went missing, the casewould have been treated
initially very differently.
And it's about the word we neverallowed to use, class.
(10:27):
This was about a class judgmentthat was made, which was
prepared to see them as runawaysas opposed to vulnerable." End
quote.
Next, the theory of the boysbeing in some sort of accident
was also discussed.
As the subsequent searches wouldhave led to the discovery or
(10:47):
something related to theincident, footprints, clothing,
or the boys themselves.
Of course, it is possible thatthe boys wandered somewhere off
the beaten path and met theirends at the hands of some
misadventure, and just haven'tbeen found yet.
But that doesn't seem likelybased on the fact that Patrick's
(11:09):
bike was found.
This means that there is reallyonly one credible theory when it
comes to what happened toPatrick, Warren, and David
Spencer, and that is foul play.
And there is a person ofinterest.
A man named Brian Field livedonly a few miles away from where
(11:30):
the boys went missing.
He had served time in the 1980sfor kidnapping two boys.
After he was caught drivingunder the influence, his DNA was
linked to the kidnap, rape, andmurder of a Surrey school boy
named Roy Tutill in 1968.
(11:51):
Field was jailed for life in2001 for this.
He has a proven track record ofviolent predatory behavior aimed
at boys around Patrick andDavid's age.
He was also considered for themurder of another boy committed
in Solihull in 1984.
Elena (12:10):
Wow, it's clear that this guy has a track record for this
kind of behavior, so I'mcurious.
I'm assuming that there's no DNAever found on the bike or
anywhere near the car, tocompare to this guy, but I'm
curious to see if they'veinterviewed him.
For this murder and how he actedand what he said.
D (12:31):
I will get into that.
They have interviewed him.
As far as the bike, there is nomention that they checked for
DNA.
I am going to assume that in1996 they did not check for DNA,
considering they thought theywere runaways.
I don't even think they thoughtof even checking the bike for
(12:51):
that.
Elena (12:51):
They could have checked it now, though, if it's still in
evidence somewhere.
D (12:55):
They have no evidence at all.
Elena (12:57):
At all?
Any sort of DNA?
D (12:58):
Nothing.
Elena (12:59):
No.
That's a shame.
Sophia (13:01):
For someone to kidnap two children at once, I've
learned that you have to beexperienced to do that, so the
fact that this man, Brian, haskidnapped two children at once
before really would not besurprising if he was involved in
this at all.
Elena (13:20):
Yeah, it's not easy to kidnap two kids, have no one see
anything, leave no evidencebehind, and never have the
bodies discovered.
Nothing.
It takes experience to do that,so I would agree.
D (13:34):
And don't forget that he had done this in the 1980s, and now
we're in the 1990s.
Sophia (13:40):
If he is involved in this, hypothetically, I just
don't see him stopping inbetween and having such a large
cooling off period.
But these boys are 11 and 13, sothey're not even under the age
of 10.
And so to be able to convinceboth of them to either get in a
car or to capture both of themunwillingly, like that takes
(14:01):
some experience with this.
Elena (14:04):
I'm guessing that the two boys that he was convicted of,
I'm just gonna assume that thoseweren't even the first ones
either, because to just startoff with two.
Sophia (14:13):
That's right.
D (14:14):
He has a record from 1968.
Sophia (14:16):
Oh, such a long time.
Elena (14:17):
Oh, yeah, that's right.
D (14:19):
In 2003, West Midlands Police publicly announced that they had
arrested a 37 year old man inconnection with the
disappearances.
He was later released on bailand has never been charged.
Then in 2006, on the 10thanniversary of Patrick and
David's disappearance thefamilies were given fresh hope.
(14:42):
West Midlands Police reopenedthe case, known as Operation
Stenley, and officers quizzedconvicted murderer, Brian Field,
who was in his 70s at the time.
Field was officially named as asuspect in 2006.
Field denied involvement, andthere was insufficient evidence
(15:03):
to charge him.
Unfortunately, there was noevidence on which to officially
connect him to the case, andthere still isn't.
In addition, on this 10thanniversary of the
disappearance, the boys were thesubject of BBC Crimewatch
special appeal for information,which drew no fresh leads.
(15:25):
Following a second Crimewatchappeal, fresh new leads were
announced by the police.
In 2006, the police announcedthey were closer than ever to
solving the mystery of whathappened to the boys, but
despite renewed hope from thefamilies, no one has ever been
charged with their abduction.
(15:45):
David and Patrick were found tohave been last seen close to
Field's home at the time inSolihull Field had worked as a
self employed gardener in thearea for a number of local
families and had access to openground in the area, and was a
regular drinker in pubs close tothe boys homes.
(16:09):
He had also worked as a gardenerfor the family of the boy
murdered in 1984.
Elena (16:16):
Oh, that's interesting.
Sophia (16:17):
And now I'm starting to wonder if he was stalking these
boys.
D (16:20):
Field had received six previous convictions for sexual
offenses against boys, includinga 1986 conviction for abducting
two boys age 13 and 16 in hiscar with the intent of raping
them.
After offering the boys a lift,he threatened them with a wheel
(16:42):
brace and told them to removetheir clothes.
But the boys were able to escapeafter jumping from the moving
car.
Sophia (16:50):
Wait, he threatened them with a what?
D (16:52):
Wheel brace.
Sophia (16:53):
What is that?
Elena (16:54):
Yeah, I'm also confused on that one.
D (16:57):
It's a lug wrench.
It's for cars, to change thetires of the car.
Sophia (17:01):
So for our listeners, it's essentially a lug wrench,
and I looked that up, and it'sjust like a long metal sort of
tool that people use for cars.
D (17:11):
West Midland's police theory is that Field was driving around
the area of the boys lastsighting in a van on the night
of their disappearance, and thathe was doing so under the
influence of alcohol.
This was notable as Field wasknown to have turned violent
when drunk and that he committedmost of his crimes while
intoxicated.
(17:32):
Field himself said afterconfessing to Tutill's murder
that alcohol was a trigger forhim wanting to commit criminal
acts.
Evidence also existed whichindicated that Field had been
speaking to the boys days beforetheir disappearance.
Sophia (17:51):
No way.
D (17:53):
Suggesting that he may have groomed them in the lead up to
their last sighting.
This could explain why no oneheard screams or a struggle on
the night of the boysdisappearance.
As they may have, Already knownField and got into his vehicle
willingly.
Sophia (18:10):
Okay, so I was wondering about that because I know the
station worker had given thembiscuits.
I was like, did the stationworker not see anything?
But if they had known him, theywouldn't have assumed it was a
dangerous situation.
So they may not have doneanything to alert the station
worker.
I was also wondering about whywould they just leave their bike
there even if Brian had said,Hey, come on, I can give you a
(18:33):
ride to your Brother's house orwhatever.
I was confused as to why theywould leave their bike there.
Because why Patrick would leavehis bike there because then he
would still have to go back toget it another time.
Elena (18:44):
Was the bike left at that station?
D (18:46):
I think it was left at that station.
Elena (18:47):
Oh, okay, interesting.
But they didn't find it tilllater.
D (18:51):
They found it, but they didn't know that it was his
until later.
Elena (18:55):
Right, until later.
D (18:56):
They never made the connection till weeks later.
Elena (18:58):
Did they, do they notice it was broken or anything like
that?
D (19:01):
No, it wasn't broken.
Elena (19:02):
I was gonna say if it was broken, he could've said, Oh,
it's okay, I'll give you a
D (19:06):
Brand new bike, he just got it.
Elena (19:07):
Well, I don't know if he accidentally fell and it broke,
like a chain, broke orsomething, but.
Sophia (19:11):
If Brian had told them, hey, I'll give you a ride to
your brother's place and don'tworry about your bike.
I'll pick it up afterwards anddrop it at your house.
I could definitely see him beingvery persuasive and trying to
come across like he's just,their friend and very willing to
help.
Maybe it was some situation likethat.
D (19:33):
Yes, I'm not sure, but I can tell you the police suspected
that Field had lured the boysfrom outside the shop they were
last seen visiting, killed them,and then their bodies.
Sophia (19:43):
And the police only started to really gather these
theories 10 years after theirdisappearance?
D (19:50):
I'm not sure exactly when they started thinking about it.
I do know they started talkingabout it more openly in ten
years after the boy'sdisappearance.
Sophia (20:01):
That's a bit frustrating for me to hear, because if you
have a child predator in thearea who has kidnapped two boys
in the past.
Who are around the ages ofPatrick and David, and then
these two boys, Patrick andDavid, go missing, and they're
the same type for Brian.
(20:22):
It frustrates me if it took themthis long to really dig into
Brian as a suspect.
D (20:27):
I'm not even sure when they had, Field with, anything.
Officers dug up land in 2006.
The field used as a dumpingground at Old Damson Lane in
Solihull but they did not findanything.
In 2016, a fresh appeal forinformation was launched.
DCI Caroline Marsh of WestMidlands Police stated her
(20:50):
belief that both boys weredeceased and said that the force
would never close the case untilthey had learned what had
happened to them.
Elena (20:59):
I have some questions about the case.
Did they ever send dogs onBrian's lawn like cadaver dogs,
to see if they picked upanything?
D (21:09):
I don't know, but if they did, it would have been so many
years later.
They did not do anything orlooking for them early on.
Don't forget, two years later,they still thought the boys may
still be in Ireland.
Sophia (21:22):
So really, they made assumptions about these boys and
that hindered them doing theproper investigation right away.
Elena (21:30):
I would agree.
Because I know there was acamera that saw them leaving.
In the direction that they wereleaving in, and like towards the
brother's house, what kind ofroad, if you know, what kind of
way was that?
D (21:42):
They were seen going to the shopping center.
Remember?
Elena (21:47):
Yeah.
D (21:47):
And I do not know what the road was like.
There's no mention of what thevideo showed of them.
And if it's 1990s, it wasprobably not very clear.
Elena (21:58):
Right, but like the path that they were most likely taken
on?
Like, do we know what kind ofroad it was?
D (22:04):
No, nothing., there's no mention of what they saw, what
road, anything.
Elena (22:07):
Hmm, that's frustrating.
I would hope that they wouldknow, the general area of where
they were taken They don't haveto release that, but I would
hope that they would know that.
D (22:16):
The attendant said that they were heading towards the
shopping center.
The police never said anythingdifferent.
So I'm assuming that's exactlywhat is being seen.
Elena (22:26):
Oh, okay, so that they were taken on the way to the
shopping center and thatsomewhere in that frame.
D (22:32):
I assume there is no mention of it.
And obviously they probablydidn't think anything of it,
because, two years later theystill thought they were
runaways.
Elena (22:42):
Right.
D (22:43):
In 2021, criminologist David Wilson released a documentary as
part of his Footsteps of Killersseries on the subject of David's
and Patrick's disappearance, inwhich he spoke to Graham Hill,
the detective that got Field toconfess to Tutill's murder in
2001.
(23:04):
Hill interviewed Field a numberof times about the boy's
disappearance for West MidlandsPolice and said that he believed
Field was responsible for theirmurder.
After the release of Wilson'sFootsteps of Killers documentary
in 2021, Locals organized a digof a field off Damson Wood Lane
(23:26):
in Solihull after a tip off wasreceived from a man who said he
had seen a man digging there atthe time of the boy's
disappearance.
This is the same field they haddug up before.
Elena (23:38):
How many years was it this tip came in later?
D (23:40):
I don't know, but it's in 2021 they started digging.
Elena (23:44):
That's ridiculous.
D (23:46):
The now adult brother of David Spencer helped organize
the search.
Field died in prison in February2024, aged 87.
The boys have never been found.
Elena (23:58):
Wait, what year did he die again?
D (24:00):
2024,
Elena (24:01):
Oh, okay, so it was this year.
D (24:03):
Correct.
Elena (24:04):
What month?
D (24:05):
February.
Elena (24:06):
Oh, okay.
Sophia (24:07):
Do you have pictures to send us?
Who's the redhead?
D (24:11):
David.
Elena (24:12):
Oh, I can see the bike.
It's a cute bike.
It's actually a really nicebike.
Yeah, I could understand why akid would not want to leave that
bike behind.
D (24:21):
The first boy is David the redhead.
Elena (24:23):
I know but who's the person on the milk carton?
D (24:26):
They got Patrick on first.
Elena (24:27):
So Patrick is the blonde and David's the redhead.
D (24:31):
Correct and the guy at the end is the suspect.
Elena (24:34):
This is a frustrating case because not saying that
Brian is the person who didthat, but he's a very possible
suspect and I just wish that,One, the investigation was
handled correctly right off thebat and not just assumed that
these kids somehow could afforda way to Ireland and just be
living out there on their own.
(24:56):
And actually done theinvestigation correctly, like
right in the beginning.
It's just frustrating that Iwish that they could have had
like more time to interviewBrian and try to get some
information out of him orsomehow find a way to further
investigate like his property.
But unfortunately, it seems likethat's just likely never going
(25:18):
happen and because Brian's nowdead I don't feel like we're
gonna getting an answer unlesssomehow the bodies are
discovered.
D (25:25):
I was watching another documentary about England and
they didn't start a case forpedophiles and Individuals who
to children to many, many yearslater.
And I think it was not seen.
as important or realistic thatthis was happening, even though
(25:47):
they knew.
I think theories in the 80s and90s were a little bit different.
And I don't think till muchlater did they start taking
things like this more serious.
So unfortunately, I think notonly are they a victim of class,
I think their story is also avictim of how pedophilia was
(26:10):
treated and acted upon backthen.
Elena (26:13):
They just wanted to ignore that's a possibility and
just try to pretend like theyjust ran away on their own.
D (26:20):
Yes, I think it was the typical, someone's missing oh,
they ran away, kind of story.
Elena (26:25):
Yeah, rather than something bad happened to them.
D (26:28):
Yes, I don't think it was, they didn't think bad things
could happen, I just think theway they, treated and thought
about it wasn't their firstthought process of let's also
look at other options.
Elena (26:42):
Right.
I think in their mind, they'reprobably that's too crazy.
That's so unlikely.
And the reality is that is avery likely situation when two
young boys go missing.
D (26:52):
Considering that he was known to do that and had done that in
the area.
I don't think he was in anyother area.
I don't know if he had moved.
Elena (27:01):
Actually, did they know about him at the time of their
disappearance?
It wasn't until later.
D (27:07):
It sounded like they were aware of him creating crimes I
just wasn't sure if it wassomething they would look into.
Like nowadays if somethinghappens, they do look to see who
the sexual predators are In yourarea and they do it question
them and want to make sure thattheir alibi is like strong.
(27:28):
But I don't think that was theway things were handled back
then.
Sophia (27:32):
How are you saying the police viewed this back then?
D (27:36):
As the runaways, as they were runaways.
Sophia (27:38):
My one thought is, I also wonder how seriously they
took sexual crimes againstmales, especially.
Elena (27:48):
She said that they didn't really want to believe it.
Sophia (27:50):
It's just really sad that the families don't have any
closure, and can't even havetheir bodies.
D (27:58):
The families really suffered after this.
First, they were pleading forthe boys to come home.
Because they did believe whatthe policeman told them that
they had run away.
Elena (28:07):
Right.
It makes sense because as aparent, I feel like you'd want
to believe that rather than yourchild was just murdered.
And if someone with authoritycomes and says, your kid ran
away, you're going to want tobelieve that over the much worse
alternative.
D (28:24):
Afterwards when they didn't show up and time passed, it
affected both families verymuch.
David's mother became ill.
Both families had severe issuesto deal with after that.
It took a toll on the families.
Elena (28:43):
Yeah, that's just awful.
D (28:45):
And one of David's brother just wants to find him and bring
him home and bury him.
So he's been doing digs here andthere.
Elena (28:53):
That's good.
D (28:53):
I do know that this was a very hard, part of their lives.
Elena (28:57):
Yeah, I feel like this is definitely a case where you're
only going to get closure fromeither a confession or from
finding a body.
So at least that the brother isactively searching and I feel
like that's the only way thatthis case could see any sort of
closure.
D (29:13):
I have a theory.
I think Brian did kill them,buried them in that plot.
But I think after things cooleddown, I think he unburied them,
buried them somewhere else.
Just my theory.
Because they knew he used thatarea as a dump and threw things
in.
(29:33):
But they have gone and dug thatarea many times and, have not
found anything.
So I have a theory that afterthings cooled down, he went and
moved them.
I don't know where he would haveput them, but I think that's
what he did.
Elena (29:47):
Yeah, I would not be surprised if that's what
happened.
The way I picture this town issurrounded by forest.
D (29:52):
I'm not sure about that.
Elena (29:53):
In a farm area right cuz he had land at least Brian.
D (29:57):
No, no Brian did not have land He just had a dump place.
He dumped.
Okay, because he was gardener Hehad a little piece of area that
he knew he'd go dump things.
Elena (30:05):
He could have just transported the bodies to any
random area of land.
Who knows where it is now?
D (30:11):
They were dead, maybe he didn't want to bury them in that
area just in case and maybe hedid go far and buried them and
came back.
No one knows.
We have no idea.
Sophia (30:20):
We know that he committed his first crime, at
least the first crime we knowabout, maybe even earlier, in
1968.
He wasn't even put away until, Ithink, 2001.
That's a long time for somebodywho is comfortable enough and
successful enough in these, ifwe're believing that he did do
this to David and Patrick tocapture multiple boys at once,
(30:44):
kidnap them, probably torturethem and kill them.
I'm just wondering how many moreare there?
Because so many decades beforeyou were put in prison, that's
alarming.
Elena (30:59):
Also, I'm wondering where he put the bodies of the boys
that we at least know that hemurdered, the one that he was
convicted of.
Where did they find the body ifthey did?
D (31:10):
In the articles I read, they didn't mention anything about
the other boys.
Elena (31:14):
Oh, interesting.
Because I was wondering if theydidn't find the bodies, and
maybe he has like a whole burialsite that we don't know about.
Or if they did, and it was justsome random lot.
Maybe he's just randomly dumpingthem.
I don't know.
D (31:31):
I could tell you that Solihull is a good enough town,
but around Solihull if you moveout, it does seem like it gets
more foresty.
So he may have had other areasthat he could dump things.
Elena (31:46):
I mean he could just drive out to a random, spot in
the forest and no one wouldreally know unless it got
discovered by accident.
D (31:53):
Actually, where the boys lived after a while you could
actually see more foresty area,but you have to leave the town.
So he could go anywhere and burythem or throw them.
Whatever he wanted.
And if he knew the area, then heknew where to go, and he knew,
whether or not anyone would findthem.
Elena (32:11):
Yeah, and that's really unfortunate.
Sophia (32:14):
He's a gardener too, and I'm sure he's got some skill
sets from that.
And he probably pays moreattention and notices more
things.
I would say he can probably telljust by looking at areas how
distributed it is or not, howmany people go there.
I'm sure being a gardener hassome skill sets to benefit him
and disposing of bodies.
D (32:36):
He probably knows where to go, and how populated the areas
are, where he can drop a bodyoff and not be found.
After you leave this area thatthe boys live, it starts
becoming less populated.
So I don't think it would havebeen that difficult for him to
just drive off with them, tellthem he was taking them
(32:57):
somewhere.
You have no idea what he toldthem, especially if he was
grooming them.
So 30 years after he did thefirst murder that we are aware
of, he had enough knowledge togroom kids.
Sophia (33:10):
That's what's so scary is how many were there?
D (33:13):
We'll never know because he what he wouldn't admit to
anything.
Sophia (33:16):
And that land is so vast I mean there could be dozens
hundreds even
D (33:21):
You would think they would know by now how many kids are
missing in England and where hewas if they can connect the
dots.
Elena (33:28):
Also, he would know how to probably like after digging
up a hole and burying them; Hewould know how to like properly
seal that hole so it doesn'tlook like it was buried.
Because he's a gardener.
He would know how to likeproperly fix things and make
them look nice.
If they went by no one wouldprobably even think anything
happened.
D (33:47):
I just, feel sorry for the boys and for their families.
Sophia (33:51):
Same here.
Yeah.
D (33:53):
Okay.
So I want to thank you forlistening to us this week.
We love our listeners andbecause of you, we do this
podcast.
Your help and engagement reallyhelps the podcast grow.
If you enjoyed this episode,please text a friend and family
member to listen to our podcast.
Until next time, make sure youstay on the Eerie Side.
(34:15):
Bye.
Bye.
Bye guys.
Be safe.
Hey guys, welcome to the Eerie Side Podcast with your
hosts, D, Sophia, and Elena.
We appreciate you guys listeningand I hope you are ready to get
on the Eerie Side.
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Okay, everybody.
Today, I am going to go througha case that's of Patrick Warren
and David Spencer.
Patrick Warren was born in 1985,and he was one of six children
(01:33):
in his family.
In 1996, he was 11 years old,and he stood 4'10" and had sandy
hair and light eyes.
He went by the nickname Patty.
According to his mother, he wasa funny boy who liked to tease
her.
His favorite sport was football,which is soccer.
(01:55):
By all accounts, he was anormal, playful boy.
David Spencer was born in 1983.
In 1996, he was 13 years old andhe stood 4'7" and had reddish
brown hair and brown eyes.
David was smart and streetwise,according to his teachers.
(02:15):
There's a bit of an elephant inthe room when it came to David.
While Patrick didn't get intotrouble, David did.
He got into fights and oftenresorted to violence to get his
point across.
He was removed from the normalschool system as a result of
this.
His family didn't believe theseissues were indicative of who
(02:36):
David was as a person.
Rather, they speak to the factthat he was ill equipped to
handle conflict in a healthyway.
He was a kid.
He got into trouble.
That does not mean he was lessvaluable or less deserving of
our attention.
On the evening of Boxing Day1996, which is December 26th,
(02:59):
and 28 years ago.
Elena (03:01):
What's Boxing Day?
D (03:04):
Boxing Day is a holiday that they celebrate in some countries
in Europe, and it's the dayafter Christmas.
Sophia (03:10):
I think they go into the ocean in their bathing suits,
right?
That's what I saw on theChristmas movie on Netflix.
It's a children's Christmasmovie that was just released.
It's a British one, and they allgo into the ocean the day after
Christmas for Boxing Day.
I think that's how theycelebrate it.
That's at least how theycelebrate it in the movie.
D (03:32):
I have no idea.
Elena (03:35):
I thought it had something to do with, the sport
of boxing.
D (03:38):
It has nothing to do with the sport of boxing.
Sophia (03:39):
You're definitely an American if you think that.
D (03:42):
On the evening of Boxing Day of 1996, which is December 26,
and 28 years ago, best friends,Patrick Warren, and David
Spencer left their WoodResidences, which is a large
housing estate of historicallyworking class families on the
edge of Birmingham, England, toplay outside.
(04:05):
Patrick left on his brand newbicycle, which had been a
Christmas present, while Davidwas on foot.
The boys had been spotted by apolice officer earlier that
afternoon playing with anothergroup of children in Meriden
Park, where they had been warnedby the officer not to play on
the frozen pond.
(04:25):
After returning home, they toldtheir parents of their plans to
visit one of Patrick's brothersthat evening.
In the morning, Derek Warren,another one of Patrick's
brothers, went looking for theboys the next day when he found
out they had not arrived.
Sophia (04:44):
I just want to make sure I understand the timeline.
So they went out and they wereat a park, and then they came
home and they told their parentsthey were going to go and look
for Patrick's brother.
They went to Patrick's house.
They were going to go look forPatrick's brother.
And since they left the house,no one has seen them.
D (05:00):
I think they each went to their own family's home, told
them they were going toPatrick's brother's that
evening.
Sophia (05:06):
So after they left their own houses.
D (05:10):
They were supposed to go to Patrick's brother.
I think they were planning onstaying there overnight.
Sophia (05:14):
Okay.
So that was the last time thatanyone has heard of them.
D (05:17):
When they left their home to go to Patrick's brother's house.
Elena (05:21):
How did you, how do you know that this is the last time
anyone's ever heard of them?
Sophia (05:25):
I guess I'm making an assumption.
Elena (05:28):
Do you know the story?
Sophia (05:29):
No, I don't actually.
I'm just making an assumption,but I just want to make sure I
understand.
Elena (05:33):
So you're spoiling it for everyone.
Sophia (05:34):
Where I am in the timeline.
I'm not spoiling it.
D (05:39):
The last known sighting of the boys was just after midnight
by a petrol station attendantwho gave them a packet of
biscuits.
The boys took off afterwards.
This was 12;45 AM and was thelast confirmed sighting of the
boys.
The petrol station attendantsaid she saw the boys walking
(05:59):
toward the local shoppingcenter.
So what happened was the boysdidn't go straight to Patrick's
brother.
They did a few other things andthen headed there.
In addition, they did have theboys leaving the petro station
on video.
When the boys didn't return totheir homes the next day, they
were reported missing.
(06:20):
The investigation was very lowlevel at first, a lot of door to
door questioning, and pleas tothe boys via interviews on TV
and in the newspaper.
But, as time stretched on,efforts grew more desperate and
concentrated.
The police initially treated theboys disappearance as a normal
(06:42):
missing person inquiry, butdespite no confirmed sightings
of them after Boxing Day, seniorofficers told the media that
there was no reason to supposethat they had come to any harm.
Elena (06:56):
Why did they treat it so like low level at first?
And why do they think that thereis like no harm?
Like, where is the evidence forthat?
D (07:05):
I will get into it.
Elena (07:06):
Oh, okay.
Okay.
D (07:08):
On December 27th, Patrick's brand new red Apollo bicycle was
found abandoned behind thepetrol station near the bins,
although the police did notrealize that it was his until
several weeks later.
Sophia (07:22):
Where was it again?
D (07:24):
The petrol station.
Sophia (07:26):
Oh, it was found behind the petrol station, which is
where they last saw them.
Okay.
Elena (07:28):
Will you get into why it took them so long?
D (07:31):
Why they realized it was the boys?
Elena (07:32):
Yeah.
D (07:34):
I don't know why it took them so long.
The boy's disappearance receivedlittle media attention beyond
the local press and what hasbeen cited as an example of
missing white girl syndrome.
However, the boy's faces wereamong the first to appear on
milk cartons in a groundbreakingcampaign launched by the
National Missing Person Helplinein April of 1997.
(07:57):
Just days after the boysdisappeared, 17 year old Nicola
Dixon was found raped andmurdered in a 8 miles away in
Sutton, Coldfield.
Though her killer was found andconvicted, the police say that
police resources and mediaattention between Christmas of
(08:18):
1996 and New Year's Day of 1997was dominated by the Dixon case.
Elena (08:25):
Okay, I see what's happening here.
Wow, that's very disappointingto say the least.
D (08:33):
Correct.
There's also more to it thanjust that.
Elena (08:36):
Oh, great.
D (08:38):
I'll be getting into it.
A few theories have beendiscussed when it comes to the
fate of Patrick and David.
As with most missing childrencases, there was the ever
present runaway theory.
If they were going to run away,why would Patrick dump his bike
at a petrol station?
It was his Christmas present.
(09:00):
It was a big present for him.
It was probably his mosttreasured possession.
I don't think he would have leftit within 24 hours of getting
it.
If he was going to run away, hewould take his bike, if nothing
else, to cover a lot of moreground.
Even in 1998, police thoughtthere was a possibility Patrick
(09:23):
and David may have gone toIreland on a teenage adventure.
Elena (09:28):
What?
D (09:29):
Although there was no evidence they went to Ireland.
Elena (09:33):
Obviously, because a couple of teenagers can't just
randomly get to Ireland.
D (09:38):
They're 11 and 13.
Only Patrick was 13.
Elena (09:41):
Also, they don't even have the money for that.
D (09:43):
Correct.
They had no money on them.
As time stretched on and theboys did not resurface, however,
this theory was written off asbeing extremely unlikely.
Professor David Wilson, acriminologist who studied the
police initial response to theboy's disappearance, concluded
(10:05):
that David and Patrick's workingclass background affected how
their case was handled.
And I quote,"If it had been twoboys from middle class Solihull
that went missing, the casewould have been treated
initially very differently.
And it's about the word we neverallowed to use, class.
(10:27):
This was about a class judgmentthat was made, which was
prepared to see them as runawaysas opposed to vulnerable." End
quote.
Next, the theory of the boysbeing in some sort of accident
was also discussed.
As the subsequent searches wouldhave led to the discovery or
(10:47):
something related to theincident, footprints, clothing,
or the boys themselves.
Of course, it is possible thatthe boys wandered somewhere off
the beaten path and met theirends at the hands of some
misadventure, and just haven'tbeen found yet.
But that doesn't seem likelybased on the fact that Patrick's
(11:09):
bike was found.
This means that there is reallyonly one credible theory when it
comes to what happened toPatrick, Warren, and David
Spencer, and that is foul play.
And there is a person ofinterest.
A man named Brian Field livedonly a few miles away from where
(11:30):
the boys went missing.
He had served time in the 1980sfor kidnapping two boys.
After he was caught drivingunder the influence, his DNA was
linked to the kidnap, rape, andmurder of a Surrey school boy
named Roy Tutill in 1968.
(11:51):
Field was jailed for life in2001 for this.
He has a proven track record ofviolent predatory behavior aimed
at boys around Patrick andDavid's age.
He was also considered for themurder of another boy committed
in Solihull in 1984.
Elena (12:10):
Wow, it's clear that this guy has a track record for this
kind of behavior, so I'mcurious.
I'm assuming that there's no DNAever found on the bike or
anywhere near the car, tocompare to this guy, but I'm
curious to see if they'veinterviewed him.
For this murder and how he actedand what he said.
D (12:31):
I will get into that.
They have interviewed him.
As far as the bike, there is nomention that they checked for
DNA.
I am going to assume that in1996 they did not check for DNA,
considering they thought theywere runaways.
I don't even think they thoughtof even checking the bike for
(12:51):
that.
Elena (12:51):
They could have checked it now, though, if it's still in
evidence somewhere.
D (12:55):
They have no evidence at all.
Elena (12:57):
At all?
Any sort of DNA?
D (12:58):
Nothing.
Elena (12:59):
No.
That's a shame.
Sophia (13:01):
For someone to kidnap two children at once, I've
learned that you have to beexperienced to do that, so the
fact that this man, Brian, haskidnapped two children at once
before really would not besurprising if he was involved in
this at all.
Elena (13:20):
Yeah, it's not easy to kidnap two kids, have no one see
anything, leave no evidencebehind, and never have the
bodies discovered.
Nothing.
It takes experience to do that,so I would agree.
D (13:34):
And don't forget that he had done this in the 1980s, and now
we're in the 1990s.
Sophia (13:40):
If he is involved in this, hypothetically, I just
don't see him stopping inbetween and having such a large
cooling off period.
But these boys are 11 and 13, sothey're not even under the age
of 10.
And so to be able to convinceboth of them to either get in a
car or to capture both of themunwillingly, like that takes
(14:01):
some experience with this.
Elena (14:04):
I'm guessing that the two boys that he was convicted of,
I'm just gonna assume that thoseweren't even the first ones
either, because to just startoff with two.
Sophia (14:13):
That's right.
D (14:14):
He has a record from 1968.
Sophia (14:16):
Oh, such a long time.
Elena (14:17):
Oh, yeah, that's right.
D (14:19):
In 2003, West Midlands Police publicly announced that they had
arrested a 37 year old man inconnection with the
disappearances.
He was later released on bailand has never been charged.
Then in 2006, on the 10thanniversary of Patrick and
David's disappearance thefamilies were given fresh hope.
(14:42):
West Midlands Police reopenedthe case, known as Operation
Stenley, and officers quizzedconvicted murderer, Brian Field,
who was in his 70s at the time.
Field was officially named as asuspect in 2006.
Field denied involvement, andthere was insufficient evidence
(15:03):
to charge him.
Unfortunately, there was noevidence on which to officially
connect him to the case, andthere still isn't.
In addition, on this 10thanniversary of the
disappearance, the boys were thesubject of BBC Crimewatch
special appeal for information,which drew no fresh leads.
(15:25):
Following a second Crimewatchappeal, fresh new leads were
announced by the police.
In 2006, the police announcedthey were closer than ever to
solving the mystery of whathappened to the boys, but
despite renewed hope from thefamilies, no one has ever been
charged with their abduction.
(15:45):
David and Patrick were found tohave been last seen close to
Field's home at the time inSolihull Field had worked as a
self employed gardener in thearea for a number of local
families and had access to openground in the area, and was a
regular drinker in pubs close tothe boys homes.
(16:09):
He had also worked as a gardenerfor the family of the boy
murdered in 1984.
Elena (16:16):
Oh, that's interesting.
Sophia (16:17):
And now I'm starting to wonder if he was stalking these
boys.
D (16:20):
Field had received six previous convictions for sexual
offenses against boys, includinga 1986 conviction for abducting
two boys age 13 and 16 in hiscar with the intent of raping
them.
After offering the boys a lift,he threatened them with a wheel
(16:42):
brace and told them to removetheir clothes.
But the boys were able to escapeafter jumping from the moving
car.
Sophia (16:50):
Wait, he threatened them with a what?
D (16:52):
Wheel brace.
Sophia (16:53):
What is that?
Elena (16:54):
Yeah, I'm also confused on that one.
D (16:57):
It's a lug wrench.
It's for cars, to change thetires of the car.
Sophia (17:01):
So for our listeners, it's essentially a lug wrench,
and I looked that up, and it'sjust like a long metal sort of
tool that people use for cars.
D (17:11):
West Midland's police theory is that Field was driving around
the area of the boys lastsighting in a van on the night
of their disappearance, and thathe was doing so under the
influence of alcohol.
This was notable as Field wasknown to have turned violent
when drunk and that he committedmost of his crimes while
intoxicated.
(17:32):
Field himself said afterconfessing to Tutill's murder
that alcohol was a trigger forhim wanting to commit criminal
acts.
Evidence also existed whichindicated that Field had been
speaking to the boys days beforetheir disappearance.
Sophia (17:51):
No way.
D (17:53):
Suggesting that he may have groomed them in the lead up to
their last sighting.
This could explain why no oneheard screams or a struggle on
the night of the boysdisappearance.
As they may have, Already knownField and got into his vehicle
willingly.
Sophia (18:10):
Okay, so I was wondering about that because I know the
station worker had given thembiscuits.
I was like, did the stationworker not see anything?
But if they had known him, theywouldn't have assumed it was a
dangerous situation.
So they may not have doneanything to alert the station
worker.
I was also wondering about whywould they just leave their bike
there even if Brian had said,Hey, come on, I can give you a
(18:33):
ride to your Brother's house orwhatever.
I was confused as to why theywould leave their bike there.
Because why Patrick would leavehis bike there because then he
would still have to go back toget it another time.
Elena (18:44):
Was the bike left at that station?
D (18:46):
I think it was left at that station.
Elena (18:47):
Oh, okay, interesting.
But they didn't find it tilllater.
D (18:51):
They found it, but they didn't know that it was his
until later.
Elena (18:55):
Right, until later.
D (18:56):
They never made the connection till weeks later.
Elena (18:58):
Did they, do they notice it was broken or anything like
that?
D (19:01):
No, it wasn't broken.
Elena (19:02):
I was gonna say if it was broken, he could've said, Oh,
it's okay, I'll give you a
D (19:06):
Brand new bike, he just got it.
Elena (19:07):
Well, I don't know if he accidentally fell and it broke,
like a chain, broke orsomething, but.
Sophia (19:11):
If Brian had told them, hey, I'll give you a ride to
your brother's place and don'tworry about your bike.
I'll pick it up afterwards anddrop it at your house.
I could definitely see him beingvery persuasive and trying to
come across like he's just,their friend and very willing to
help.
Maybe it was some situation likethat.
D (19:33):
Yes, I'm not sure, but I can tell you the police suspected
that Field had lured the boysfrom outside the shop they were
last seen visiting, killed them,and then their bodies.
Sophia (19:43):
And the police only started to really gather these
theories 10 years after theirdisappearance?
D (19:50):
I'm not sure exactly when they started thinking about it.
I do know they started talkingabout it more openly in ten
years after the boy'sdisappearance.
Sophia (20:01):
That's a bit frustrating for me to hear, because if you
have a child predator in thearea who has kidnapped two boys
in the past.
Who are around the ages ofPatrick and David, and then
these two boys, Patrick andDavid, go missing, and they're
the same type for Brian.
(20:22):
It frustrates me if it took themthis long to really dig into
Brian as a suspect.
D (20:27):
I'm not even sure when they had, Field with, anything.
Officers dug up land in 2006.
The field used as a dumpingground at Old Damson Lane in
Solihull but they did not findanything.
In 2016, a fresh appeal forinformation was launched.
DCI Caroline Marsh of WestMidlands Police stated her
(20:50):
belief that both boys weredeceased and said that the force
would never close the case untilthey had learned what had
happened to them.
Elena (20:59):
I have some questions about the case.
Did they ever send dogs onBrian's lawn like cadaver dogs,
to see if they picked upanything?
D (21:09):
I don't know, but if they did, it would have been so many
years later.
They did not do anything orlooking for them early on.
Don't forget, two years later,they still thought the boys may
still be in Ireland.
Sophia (21:22):
So really, they made assumptions about these boys and
that hindered them doing theproper investigation right away.
Elena (21:30):
I would agree.
Because I know there was acamera that saw them leaving.
In the direction that they wereleaving in, and like towards the
brother's house, what kind ofroad, if you know, what kind of
way was that?
D (21:42):
They were seen going to the shopping center.
Remember?
Elena (21:47):
Yeah.
D (21:47):
And I do not know what the road was like.
There's no mention of what thevideo showed of them.
And if it's 1990s, it wasprobably not very clear.
Elena (21:58):
Right, but like the path that they were most likely taken
on?
Like, do we know what kind ofroad it was?
D (22:04):
No, nothing., there's no mention of what they saw, what
road, anything.
Elena (22:07):
Hmm, that's frustrating.
I would hope that they wouldknow, the general area of where
they were taken They don't haveto release that, but I would
hope that they would know that.
D (22:16):
The attendant said that they were heading towards the
shopping center.
The police never said anythingdifferent.
So I'm assuming that's exactlywhat is being seen.
Elena (22:26):
Oh, okay, so that they were taken on the way to the
shopping center and thatsomewhere in that frame.
D (22:32):
I assume there is no mention of it.
And obviously they probablydidn't think anything of it,
because, two years later theystill thought they were
runaways.
Elena (22:42):
Right.
D (22:43):
In 2021, criminologist David Wilson released a documentary as
part of his Footsteps of Killersseries on the subject of David's
and Patrick's disappearance, inwhich he spoke to Graham Hill,
the detective that got Field toconfess to Tutill's murder in
2001.
(23:04):
Hill interviewed Field a numberof times about the boy's
disappearance for West MidlandsPolice and said that he believed
Field was responsible for theirmurder.
After the release of Wilson'sFootsteps of Killers documentary
in 2021, Locals organized a digof a field off Damson Wood Lane
(23:26):
in Solihull after a tip off wasreceived from a man who said he
had seen a man digging there atthe time of the boy's
disappearance.
This is the same field they haddug up before.
Elena (23:38):
How many years was it this tip came in later?
D (23:40):
I don't know, but it's in 2021 they started digging.
Elena (23:44):
That's ridiculous.
D (23:46):
The now adult brother of David Spencer helped organize
the search.
Field died in prison in February2024, aged 87.
The boys have never been found.
Elena (23:58):
Wait, what year did he die again?
D (24:00):
2024,
Elena (24:01):
Oh, okay, so it was this year.
D (24:03):
Correct.
Elena (24:04):
What month?
D (24:05):
February.
Elena (24:06):
Oh, okay.
Sophia (24:07):
Do you have pictures to send us?
Who's the redhead?
D (24:11):
David.
Elena (24:12):
Oh, I can see the bike.
It's a cute bike.
It's actually a really nicebike.
Yeah, I could understand why akid would not want to leave that
bike behind.
D (24:21):
The first boy is David the redhead.
Elena (24:23):
I know but who's the person on the milk carton?
D (24:26):
They got Patrick on first.
Elena (24:27):
So Patrick is the blonde and David's the redhead.
D (24:31):
Correct and the guy at the end is the suspect.
Elena (24:34):
This is a frustrating case because not saying that
Brian is the person who didthat, but he's a very possible
suspect and I just wish that,One, the investigation was
handled correctly right off thebat and not just assumed that
these kids somehow could afforda way to Ireland and just be
living out there on their own.
(24:56):
And actually done theinvestigation correctly, like
right in the beginning.
It's just frustrating that Iwish that they could have had
like more time to interviewBrian and try to get some
information out of him orsomehow find a way to further
investigate like his property.
But unfortunately, it seems likethat's just likely never going
(25:18):
happen and because Brian's nowdead I don't feel like we're
gonna getting an answer unlesssomehow the bodies are
discovered.
D (25:25):
I was watching another documentary about England and
they didn't start a case forpedophiles and Individuals who
to children to many, many yearslater.
And I think it was not seen.
as important or realistic thatthis was happening, even though
(25:47):
they knew.
I think theories in the 80s and90s were a little bit different.
And I don't think till muchlater did they start taking
things like this more serious.
So unfortunately, I think notonly are they a victim of class,
I think their story is also avictim of how pedophilia was
(26:10):
treated and acted upon backthen.
Elena (26:13):
They just wanted to ignore that's a possibility and
just try to pretend like theyjust ran away on their own.
D (26:20):
Yes, I think it was the typical, someone's missing oh,
they ran away, kind of story.
Elena (26:25):
Yeah, rather than something bad happened to them.
D (26:28):
Yes, I don't think it was, they didn't think bad things
could happen, I just think theway they, treated and thought
about it wasn't their firstthought process of let's also
look at other options.
Elena (26:42):
Right.
I think in their mind, they'reprobably that's too crazy.
That's so unlikely.
And the reality is that is avery likely situation when two
young boys go missing.
D (26:52):
Considering that he was known to do that and had done that in
the area.
I don't think he was in anyother area.
I don't know if he had moved.
Elena (27:01):
Actually, did they know about him at the time of their
disappearance?
It wasn't until later.
D (27:07):
It sounded like they were aware of him creating crimes I
just wasn't sure if it wassomething they would look into.
Like nowadays if somethinghappens, they do look to see who
the sexual predators are In yourarea and they do it question
them and want to make sure thattheir alibi is like strong.
(27:28):
But I don't think that was theway things were handled back
then.
Sophia (27:32):
How are you saying the police viewed this back then?
D (27:36):
As the runaways, as they were runaways.
Sophia (27:38):
My one thought is, I also wonder how seriously they
took sexual crimes againstmales, especially.
Elena (27:48):
She said that they didn't really want to believe it.
Sophia (27:50):
It's just really sad that the families don't have any
closure, and can't even havetheir bodies.
D (27:58):
The families really suffered after this.
First, they were pleading forthe boys to come home.
Because they did believe whatthe policeman told them that
they had run away.
Elena (28:07):
Right.
It makes sense because as aparent, I feel like you'd want
to believe that rather than yourchild was just murdered.
And if someone with authoritycomes and says, your kid ran
away, you're going to want tobelieve that over the much worse
alternative.
D (28:24):
Afterwards when they didn't show up and time passed, it
affected both families verymuch.
David's mother became ill.
Both families had severe issuesto deal with after that.
It took a toll on the families.
Elena (28:43):
Yeah, that's just awful.
D (28:45):
And one of David's brother just wants to find him and bring
him home and bury him.
So he's been doing digs here andthere.
Elena (28:53):
That's good.
D (28:53):
I do know that this was a very hard, part of their lives.
Elena (28:57):
Yeah, I feel like this is definitely a case where you're
only going to get closure fromeither a confession or from
finding a body.
So at least that the brother isactively searching and I feel
like that's the only way thatthis case could see any sort of
closure.
D (29:13):
I have a theory.
I think Brian did kill them,buried them in that plot.
But I think after things cooleddown, I think he unburied them,
buried them somewhere else.
Just my theory.
Because they knew he used thatarea as a dump and threw things
in.
(29:33):
But they have gone and dug thatarea many times and, have not
found anything.
So I have a theory that afterthings cooled down, he went and
moved them.
I don't know where he would haveput them, but I think that's
what he did.
Elena (29:47):
Yeah, I would not be surprised if that's what
happened.
The way I picture this town issurrounded by forest.
D (29:52):
I'm not sure about that.
Elena (29:53):
In a farm area right cuz he had land at least Brian.
D (29:57):
No, no Brian did not have land He just had a dump place.
He dumped.
Okay, because he was gardener Hehad a little piece of area that
he knew he'd go dump things.
Elena (30:05):
He could have just transported the bodies to any
random area of land.
Who knows where it is now?
D (30:11):
They were dead, maybe he didn't want to bury them in that
area just in case and maybe hedid go far and buried them and
came back.
No one knows.
We have no idea.
Sophia (30:20):
We know that he committed his first crime, at
least the first crime we knowabout, maybe even earlier, in
1968.
He wasn't even put away until, Ithink, 2001.
That's a long time for somebodywho is comfortable enough and
successful enough in these, ifwe're believing that he did do
this to David and Patrick tocapture multiple boys at once,
(30:44):
kidnap them, probably torturethem and kill them.
I'm just wondering how many moreare there?
Because so many decades beforeyou were put in prison, that's
alarming.
Elena (30:59):
Also, I'm wondering where he put the bodies of the boys
that we at least know that hemurdered, the one that he was
convicted of.
Where did they find the body ifthey did?
D (31:10):
In the articles I read, they didn't mention anything about
the other boys.
Elena (31:14):
Oh, interesting.
Because I was wondering if theydidn't find the bodies, and
maybe he has like a whole burialsite that we don't know about.
Or if they did, and it was justsome random lot.
Maybe he's just randomly dumpingthem.
I don't know.
D (31:31):
I could tell you that Solihull is a good enough town,
but around Solihull if you moveout, it does seem like it gets
more foresty.
So he may have had other areasthat he could dump things.
Elena (31:46):
I mean he could just drive out to a random, spot in
the forest and no one wouldreally know unless it got
discovered by accident.
D (31:53):
Actually, where the boys lived after a while you could
actually see more foresty area,but you have to leave the town.
So he could go anywhere and burythem or throw them.
Whatever he wanted.
And if he knew the area, then heknew where to go, and he knew,
whether or not anyone would findthem.
Elena (32:11):
Yeah, and that's really unfortunate.
Sophia (32:14):
He's a gardener too, and I'm sure he's got some skill
sets from that.
And he probably pays moreattention and notices more
things.
I would say he can probably telljust by looking at areas how
distributed it is or not, howmany people go there.
I'm sure being a gardener hassome skill sets to benefit him
and disposing of bodies.
D (32:36):
He probably knows where to go, and how populated the areas
are, where he can drop a bodyoff and not be found.
After you leave this area thatthe boys live, it starts
becoming less populated.
So I don't think it would havebeen that difficult for him to
just drive off with them, tellthem he was taking them
(32:57):
somewhere.
You have no idea what he toldthem, especially if he was
grooming them.
So 30 years after he did thefirst murder that we are aware
of, he had enough knowledge togroom kids.
Sophia (33:10):
That's what's so scary is how many were there?
D (33:13):
We'll never know because he what he wouldn't admit to
anything.
Sophia (33:16):
And that land is so vast I mean there could be dozens
hundreds even
D (33:21):
You would think they would know by now how many kids are
missing in England and where hewas if they can connect the
dots.
Elena (33:28):
Also, he would know how to probably like after digging
up a hole and burying them; Hewould know how to like properly
seal that hole so it doesn'tlook like it was buried.
Because he's a gardener.
He would know how to likeproperly fix things and make
them look nice.
If they went by no one wouldprobably even think anything
happened.
D (33:47):
I just, feel sorry for the boys and for their families.
Sophia (33:51):
Same here.
Yeah.
D (33:53):
Okay.
So I want to thank you forlistening to us this week.
We love our listeners andbecause of you, we do this
podcast.
Your help and engagement reallyhelps the podcast grow.
If you enjoyed this episode,please text a friend and family
member to listen to our podcast.
Until next time, make sure youstay on the Eerie Side.
(34:15):
Bye.
Bye.
Bye guys.
Be safe.
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