July 22, 2024 • 24 mins
Discover the evolving world of estate planning and financial advising in our latest episode, featuring insightful contributions from Todd Whatley, the Elder Law Coach, and certified financial planner Ian Weiner. You won't want to miss Todd's candid apology for the delay in new episodes as he commits to more frequent and valuable content. Ian takes us through the types of financial advisors, emphasizing the fee-only model and the industry's shift towards comprehensive financial planning. Gain from Ian's extensive experience as he underscores the necessity for transparency and client-focused advice, steering away from mere asset management. This episode sets the stage for a two-part series, starting with emerging issues in estate planning and financial advising.
In the second part of our discussion, we tackle the critical topic of effective sales strategies in professional services. Ian and Todd highlight the importance of being assertive and ethical when offering services, likening it to saving a drowning person with a life raft. Todd shares his journey from hesitating to push financial services to realizing the positive impact of a proactive approach. Together, they delve into the ethical duty to provide clients with the best possible service and avoid the pitfalls of subpar assistance. Learn about the significance of profitability for a sustainable business and the role of effective salesmanship in client success. This conversation is a must-listen for anyone in professional services, emphasizing the moral obligation to guide clients towards beneficial decisions assertively.
Check out our new website www.TheElderLawCoach.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Thank you.
Specialized experience, Whetheryou're an established attorney
looking to refine your expertiseor an emerging lawyer seeking a
successful foray into elder law, this is your masterclass.
Now let's get started with theluminary in the field.
Here's Todd Whatley.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
That's right.
This is the Elder Law Coach andthank you so much for joining
us, and I guess I should startout with a huge apology for
being a little slow in gettingthese out.
It has been crazy.
Just this first half of 2024has just been a crazy year.
Got a lot of things going onand we're going to talk about
some of those today, but just Iapologize for being so slow, but
(01:00):
please subscribe so that whenone does go up you'll be
notified, and my hope is to dothis more because mainly Tricia,
my marketing person, is on mycase to do these more.
So today I am here with a guestI think you've heard from, ian
Weiner before.
(01:20):
He is the certified financialplanner that works in my office
with my clients and we're goingto talk today.
Well, first, hey, william, hey,ian William.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
I've been called worse.
Hey, Ian, how are you doing?
I'm good.
Todd, this is fun.
Look, it has been crazy, butyou know what?
There's a lot of good reasonsfor that and there's a lot of
good stuff that are coming tothe folks that listen to your
podcast.
So there's good reasons forthis, so stay tuned.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Yeah, there is.
So, yes, thank you so much forjoining us.
I think you've probably heardhim before, but today I want to
jump right into the issue ofkind of we've put out the
crystal ball and our crystalball is based on what we're
seeing Not in a crystal ball,obviously, but just seeing some
trends and some things that arecoming that, if you're doing
(02:19):
just estate planning, planning,I think you particularly need to
listen to this and realizethere are some forces out there
that you may be aware of.
But we're going to make youvery aware of it today, and this
will be a two-part series.
Today we're going to talk aboutthe problem, what's coming up,
what we're seeing as an issue,and then the next episode will
(02:43):
be on how to solve it.
Okay, so, ian, you've done somemeetings with me.
I mean, you're here with me,very available, and a lot of
times clients ask you to be inthe meeting with us to deal with
the financial things and whatare some common things that
you're seeing in my office, butalso as a financial advisor,
(03:05):
you're getting notificationsabout a new line of work and new
thing that y'all could do, andit's kind of scary.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
It is scary.
So I am kind of an interestingadvisor because I don't fit in
any really traditional boxanywhere.
I have some folks that I wouldconsider peers, but it's not
like your Jones or your Merrillor your Schwab's or you know.
There's really, in my view,there's like kind of three
(03:37):
different types of advisors.
There's the broker-dealeradvisor, there's the you know,
xyz mutual insurance advisor,and then there's this kind of
hybrid which is in my space, isthe RIA space, and typically
these guys are fee-only and sotheir thing is they only get
paid by billing the clientdirectly to manage assets or do
(03:59):
planning.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Fine, I'm a little bit in all of those worlds and
when you say do planning, do youmean that, or do you mean
selling products?
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Well, the fee-only guys will say that they don't
sell products, but really whatthey do is they aggregate assets
.
The product is the investmentmanagement typically Right.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
They get paid by how much in assets they have under
their management AIM.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
They get paid by how much in assets they have under
their management, aim.
You know I get a littlefrustrated with it and I have.
The reason I'm telling this isto say that I have friends and
colleagues in each of theseworlds and so I have interesting
insight into what they're doing, and I'm in peer groups where
we talk about this stuff, thethings that they're doing, how
folks are innovating in theirpractice and doing some of this
stuff.
The fee-only guys bug me alittle bit because they pretend
(04:47):
that they are better thaneverybody else.
They're the knight in shiningarmor.
They only get paid by theirclients, but behind closed doors
.
What they're talking about ishow do we get more revenue from
our clients?
How do we do stuff to increaseour fees and it's fine.
But just transparency is goodall the way around, right?
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Right and they get paid the more money they have.
And we did our Facebook liveshow this morning and part of
that was talking about as a trueadvisor, as a true person for
the client.
If they want to spend money onsomething, we're all for it.
The AUM guy is like wait, hangon a second, you want to take
(05:29):
this money and put it into.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
Just defer Take your Social Security early.
Just defer taking money out forRMDs, because as the account
balance grows, so does theircompensation.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Look, there are some clients that I serve this way
because the model works for them, and that's fine, but what I
see behind closed doors thatother people don't see is they.
In some cases, they flat outlie about being fee only when
they're not.
There's one very prominent guywho, due to some relationships I
have in the insurance world,he's insurance licensed and
(05:58):
sells insurance and says that hedoesn't, and so that's one
that's like ridiculous.
But as one of the things thatwe're starting to see here is
this big focus towards planning,and I think planning is really
important and that's what weprovide for our clients, and
when I I want to frame it in thesense of you know, we really
try to solve the big problemsfor clients.
(06:21):
You know, saving 200 bucks ayear on, you know, this auto
insurance versus that autoinsurance really isn't moving
the needle for our clients.
My clients don't get excitedabout that.
I review that stuff for them tomake sure we don't have gaps in
coverage, but that's not a hugething.
Now, if we can save a couplemillion dollars in estate taxes,
that's an issue worth solvingand that's an issue worth paying
(06:41):
for, right.
And so what a lot of advisorshave begun to figure out is
estate planning is a prettyimportant part of the lifecycle
of a person, but also is part ofthe asset gathering and
management journey, right, andso what I'm seeing is this is a
long answer to a short question,but I think it's important to
see these pieces come together.
(07:02):
Question but I think it'simportant to see these pieces
come together.
We're seeing these tech-drivensolutions to either simplify or
automate template-based estateplanning, and it is being
pitched to advisors as anadditional revenue stream for
them and advisors that I knowthat are colleagues in some of
these worlds.
This is how they're doing itand personally it makes me
(07:24):
uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
They are creating trust in powers of attorney.
Estate planning documents.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
The way that they would say it is.
The client is filling out theforms and a template is being
created that always works outperfectly.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
There's no problems with that, right.
I want three trustees at thesame time.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Yeah, yeah, no big deal, but it's cheaper, right?
Yeah, it's cheaper, and so thisis where this is kind of the
rub, right.
And so, on one hand, there'salways going to be that client
who is going to find theabsolute cheapest option and
doesn't care about theconsequences.
We don't work for those clients.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
No, we don't, that's fine.
Just practice tip real quick.
If someone calls your secretarynumber one, don't let your
secretary give out prices.
That's a huge issue.
And if someone demands to knowthe price before they come see,
you, send them down the road.
It's okay.
You don't want to work withthem.
If you're demanding to knowwhat the price is, I don't know
(08:25):
what the price is because itdepends on what you need.
The price is going to be quotedonce we know what you need.
And if a client is demanding aprice, send them down the road.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
They're not worth it.
A good language pattern, I meansome people, you know they're,
they're trying to shop aroundand I and I and I appreciate
that a good language pattern forthat is look, if we don't, if
we give a prescription withoutdiagnosis, that's malpractice.
You wouldn't want your doctorto do that.
We're not going to do thateither, and so we have.
This is why there's the processand so it's.
(08:59):
There's always going to be thatsegment of the market, right,
the bottom 25%, the people thatare going to scrimp and save
every penny.
What we say on the radio showis save a buck, lose a fortune.
Those people I called a client,one of Todd's clients who I sat
in on the meeting.
They were doing beneficiarydesignations, powers of attorney
(09:20):
.
It was a pretty straightforwardplan for them.
We started talking.
I said, hey, what's the plan topay for long-term care if
that's an issue?
What's the plan to pay for this, that and the other?
And come to find out thegentleman.
He self-manages about $5million, and the number is not
the most important part.
The fact that he spends $60,000a year and expects to for the
(09:40):
rest of his life creates aninteresting challenge.
And so we talked through hisplan and his strategy a little
bit.
He's a DIY guy, you know, andhis wife was rolling her eyes
the whole time, you know.
This is a guy who'sself-important and thinks he
knows stuff, and I was.
I was asking him some questionsthat he should have known the
answer to.
Didn't know the answer to, sure, because I wanted him to be
thoughtful about it and we endedup not working together in any
(10:05):
bigger capacity.
But he called into the officeand was asking questions about a
will and so I said I got this,I'll take this one.
So I called him and I said look, and I'm going to call him Jim.
I said Jim, and I answered someof his basic questions and the
plan that Todd's team puttogether made sense generally
enough for them.
He wasn't going to pay for atrust.
(10:25):
He probably should have one,but he wasn't going to pay for
one.
So fine.
And I said, jim, I need you tounderstand and I need you to
hear this clearly If you don'thire someone to help you, it's
going to cost you millions ofdollars.
You are going to make themistakes that this is a basic
issue that you haven't figuredout, the complex issues that I
try to talk to you about that.
(10:46):
You have no clue A what theyare and B how they work is going
to cost you millions of dollars.
What was his response?
He stuttered a little bit andhe didn't like it, you know.
But this is that kind of client.
We can't help them, but we haveto tell them clearly that they
need to get help.
And so you're not going to getall of those right, but there
are clients who are good, honest, hardworking people that want
(11:08):
help and want advice.
Those are the kind of peoplethat that you want to help, and
right now they're being, they'rebeing offered solutions to
their problems that feel like agood fit, that feel like that's
going to save them a little bitof money, feel like it's more
efficient.
And so you know, as attorneys,you've got to face not only just
(11:28):
explaining why what you do isimportant, but why the other
solution is not going to work.
And so, from a marketingperspective, we need to get the
word out about this a little bit.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Well, I think a lot of attorneys don't see
themselves as salesmen.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
They're professionals , so I'm a professional.
I have to, just but you do.
And there's a great book byDaniel Pink, Um uh to sell is to
to live or something I mean.
It's.
It's about selling.
Everyone is a salespersonParents trying to get their kids
to eat their vegetables.
(12:02):
They're salesmen.
Okay, trying to get your kid togo take a nap.
You're selling the idea oftaking a nap Somebody's going to
win.
We are all salesmen.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
Best idea wins and we communicate it the best.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
And Ian, you know, as he's a friend, he's financial
advisor but he's kind of like my, my office consultant and he.
He pulled me aside one time.
He said, todd, you're notselling hard enough.
And I was like, wait a second,I don't.
He said these people need whatyou're offering and your
(12:38):
approach to that is very well OK, whatever.
He said no, if you knowsomeone's drowning, it's well
okay, whatever.
He said no, if you knowsomeone's drowning, it's like
here, take this life raft.
Okay, take this ring and saveyour life.
You're going to be veryforceful if they're like oh no,
I don't think I need it.
Yes, you do need this, you'redying.
You're going to make everyeffort to get them to take the
life raft.
And so you need to startthinking, like I have to say
(13:03):
look, I know these people needthis and I've got to be a little
more forceful, a little more.
And I always precede this withI know this sounds self-serving,
but you need to hire me to dothis for you because there are
so many issues here, me to dothis for you because there are
(13:23):
so many issues here and I'vereally started pushing more to
say you know, yes, you want tosave money, yes, you can get
this cheaper elsewhere, but I'mtelling you this is what you
need to do.
And I was real nervous aboutbringing in the financial
component, because I knew thesepeople needed help.
And I was real nervous becauseof the ethics rules about dual
business and things like that.
(13:44):
But pretty much without fail,when I said, look, your finances
are a mess, can I bring Ian inand help you?
And yes, I'm going to make somemoney from you hiring him as a
financial advisor, but I thinkhe can help you.
And they're like absolutely,bring him in.
I would love to talk to himbecause we're bringing to their
(14:05):
attention what is lacking.
And for those people that arelike you've got to be more
forceful, and I think the topicof this show today is there's a
lot of do-it-yourself things outthere.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
There's.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Google, there's ChatGPT, there are Dave Ramsey,
there's Susie Orman, and peopleare inundated with hey, do your
trust?
Do it now, where they fill outthe stuff and they make horrible
decisions.
And I think people do that witha lot of trepidation and they
(14:42):
would love to hear from you as aprofessional to say, hey, let
me explain this to you.
And as they're there and yousee a problem, you've got to
sell it.
You've got to be moreaggressive.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
Well, this is so good and we didn't think that we
were going down this road, but Ithink it's important that we
talk about it.
You know, and for a long time Ihave been wrongly trying to not
sell as well.
You know, like I am a goodsalesperson transparently I am.
And you know, through workingtogether more, I've really
(15:14):
started to push both of us andgo look to me.
It's actually an ethical issueand hang with me here, this is
really challenging, you know,but at least in our area, I
fully believe that if someonegoes to another attorney, odds
are they're not going to gettreated the right way in our
area.
I mean, statistically, I thinkthat's the case and you know,
(15:36):
even if it's another certifiedelder law attorney may or may
not get the level of servicethat we're providing.
Thanks, but I really want toframe it in that way.
And in my world for financialplanning, I know one good
financial planner in this areaand he doesn't work with clients
locally and they're on everycorner, yeah, I mean, there are
advisors everywhere up here.
(16:05):
It's something where I'm goingto say this very strongly, but
I'm going to challenge you totry to let this resonate with
you, if you're not careful andyou don't help those folks,
someone else will try to andthey may end up getting screwed.
That's really the concern.
That's what I said to Todd.
I was like Todd if they gosomewhere else, they're going to
get screwed, most likely.
And we can't help everyone.
(16:26):
We can't fix every problem, butif we don't do our best to
educate them and help the onesthat we can, that's harder on me
.
And look, you got to run yourpractice.
You got to be profitable.
There's nothing wrong withbeing profitable.
That's not unethical.
In fact, if you are profitableand you run a good business, you
can help more people.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
So if you're not profitable, you go out of
business and you're helping noone, so you've got to make a
profit.
I don't think anyone disagreeswith that and it's okay, right,
yeah, it's okay.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
But I really want you know and part of it is I do
believe, that what Daniel Pinksays is true that everything is
sales all the time, whether yourealize it or not.
Daniel Pink says is true thateverything is sales all the time
, whether you realize it or not.
And you have to come to the,and that's intense.
But I think it's a good thingif you think about it the right
(17:09):
way, because that gives you anopportunity to frame it in your
mind the right way.
I mean, if you're right, it'syour obligation to gently
convince the client that you'reright and it's in their best
interest to do that.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
So a phrase that I use and this sounds so arrogant,
but clients like it, you knowit turns a few off, that's fine,
go, go, do your stuff.
But the phrase that I use whenthey're like well, you know, I
just don't know if this is afair price or whatever.
I'm like you can find itcheaper.
Okay, I charge more than mostpeople because I do more than
(17:44):
most people.
And then that requires you to,number one, be better.
Okay, get software that doesthis very well, be good at the
software.
Make sure that the statementyou say, when you say you're
going to pay more with mebecause you get better stuff,
that needs to be the truth andit forces you to continue your
(18:07):
education, to maybe do coaching,to get your skill level up to a
point where you can charge more.
I tell people all the time youcan find it cheaper.
The guy down the street whodoes divorces and criminal,
he'll do a trust for you, I'mpretty sure.
And it'll be cheap.
Okay, it'll be probably a thirdof my price, but it's terrible.
(18:29):
Okay, it's based on a form thathe did back in the early 2000s
or 90s or God forbid, the 80s,the late 20th century, yeah, and
it's not up to date, it doesn'thave the powers.
He doesn't understand how toprotect the assets for the heirs
.
I mean, there's a lot of thingsthere and that forces you to
(18:51):
understand your documents and tounderstand and to be better
than the guy down the street.
And that's what some people arelooking for.
And I do charge a premium andvery few people tell me no.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
You know people by and large, this is hard.
Someone's going to email me.
By and large, people need to betold what to do, absolutely,
and they want to be told what todo.
I mean, really that's what theywant, you know, and a lot of
that does come down toconfidence.
Now, don't practice in an areawhere you're not competent, and
so that's another conversation,right?
But, um, you know, if you don'tbelieve that you provide the
(19:29):
best services in your area forthe client, my encouragement to
you is change that and providethose you know.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
I can help you with that, yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
And and that's.
That's kind of the.
But then, when you are havingthat conversation with someone,
another little language patternthat I like is if someone goes
boy, this, this is reallyexpensive.
This, this person down the roadwill do it cheaper, this.
It's going to sound kind oftough, but I'm going to tell you
, try it, Say, and why do youthink that is?
And just be quiet and let themsweat a little bit, and nine
(20:07):
times out of ten what they'regoing to say is well, it's
probably this or that, and justshut up, Don't talk.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Let them process that , yep.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
Because if you really are providing better service,
you're leading them along thepath to figure that out, and
that's how you do it.
I mean, they're challenging you.
It's fair to challenge themback, but that one works quite a
bit.
And let them tell the story.
Why do you think that is?
That's a good question.
And if you are an attorney,they're going to work their way
(20:37):
out.
They're going to work that out.
If you are an attorney, they'regoing to work their way out,
they're going to work that out.
And so you know, we got totalking a little bit about some
of this stuff, about, you know,these DIY options and these sort
of advisor led options.
But I don't want to kind offinish on that, because this is
going to be an area where thegap is going to continue to
(20:59):
close.
This is going to be an areawhere the gap is going to
continue to close.
I think you know the group ofpeople that are willing to
accept templates and DIY stuff,and you know AI generated stuff
is going to grow larger andlarger and larger it is, and so
that can be an opportunity todifferentiate or that could
crush you, and you've got todecide which one it's going to
(21:20):
be really.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Yeah, so join us next time where we're going to talk
about some of the things we'vedone in my practice, that is,
getting those people.
I mean, I have drasticallyincreased over the last six
months.
I have drastically increased mynumber of wealthy clients and
the number of trusts that I havedone and you know I don't sell
(21:44):
trust.
I actually discourage peoplefrom getting trust because a lot
of people don't need them.
But those who do need it andcan pay for it and if you charge
appropriately you can makesubstantial money I've had in
the last six months.
I've had three or four of mybest months ever and it's
because I've started seeingthese folks charging more and
(22:08):
the things I've done in myoffice, I think, appeal to
people and are getting them inand they're happy and they're
sticking with us and doing moreand more work.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
Well, you're also and I think this is fair to say
you're also solving biggerproblems for them.
Oh yeah, absolutely.
I mean, there's probably evenstuff that we've missed just in
the shuffle here, because Todd'sprocess is built to be
extremely efficient and we'reworking to add some other lanes
(22:38):
here and make it more of a evenbetter of a concierge process.
But you know, we're reallysolving problems that people
hadn't thought about and aregoing to be problems, and I
think, if you can embrace thatand go okay, if you believe that
it's true that people that havethe money to pay to solve
problems will pay to solve thoseproblems, and might as well be
(23:00):
you, Might as well be you andfigure out what the biggest ones
are and how to solve them.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Okay, join us next time and we'll delve into that.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
It's hard to answer that question.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
All right, thank you all very much.
Please like and subscribe andif you have questions, please
email me, todd at theelderlawcoachcom, and also join
us in August Okay, august of2024.
We will be doing a big, hugepush and join us then email us.
I'm Todd at the elder lawcoachcom.
Thanks, bye.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Thank you for joining this episode of the elder law
coach podcast.
For those eager to take theirelder law practice to new
heights and are interested inTodd's acclaimed coaching
program, visitwwwtheelderlawcoachcom.
With Todd Whatley by your side,the journey to becoming an
elder law authority has neverbeen more achievable.
(23:51):
Until next time, keep learning,keep growing and stay
passionate about elder law.
Thank you.
Specialized experience, Whetheryou're an established attorney
looking to refine your expertiseor an emerging lawyer seeking a
successful foray into elder law, this is your masterclass.
Now let's get started with theluminary in the field.
Here's Todd Whatley.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
That's right.
This is the Elder Law Coach andthank you so much for joining
us, and I guess I should startout with a huge apology for
being a little slow in gettingthese out.
It has been crazy.
Just this first half of 2024has just been a crazy year.
Got a lot of things going onand we're going to talk about
some of those today, but just Iapologize for being so slow, but
(01:00):
please subscribe so that whenone does go up you'll be
notified, and my hope is to dothis more because mainly Tricia,
my marketing person, is on mycase to do these more.
So today I am here with a guestI think you've heard from, ian
Weiner before.
(01:20):
He is the certified financialplanner that works in my office
with my clients and we're goingto talk today.
Well, first, hey, william, hey,ian William.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
I've been called worse.
Hey, Ian, how are you doing?
I'm good.
Todd, this is fun.
Look, it has been crazy, butyou know what?
There's a lot of good reasonsfor that and there's a lot of
good stuff that are coming tothe folks that listen to your
podcast.
So there's good reasons forthis, so stay tuned.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Yeah, there is.
So, yes, thank you so much forjoining us.
I think you've probably heardhim before, but today I want to
jump right into the issue ofkind of we've put out the
crystal ball and our crystalball is based on what we're
seeing Not in a crystal ball,obviously, but just seeing some
trends and some things that arecoming that, if you're doing
(02:19):
just estate planning, planning,I think you particularly need to
listen to this and realizethere are some forces out there
that you may be aware of.
But we're going to make youvery aware of it today, and this
will be a two-part series.
Today we're going to talk aboutthe problem, what's coming up,
what we're seeing as an issue,and then the next episode will
(02:43):
be on how to solve it.
Okay, so, ian, you've done somemeetings with me.
I mean, you're here with me,very available, and a lot of
times clients ask you to be inthe meeting with us to deal with
the financial things and whatare some common things that
you're seeing in my office, butalso as a financial advisor,
(03:05):
you're getting notificationsabout a new line of work and new
thing that y'all could do, andit's kind of scary.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
It is scary.
So I am kind of an interestingadvisor because I don't fit in
any really traditional boxanywhere.
I have some folks that I wouldconsider peers, but it's not
like your Jones or your Merrillor your Schwab's or you know.
There's really, in my view,there's like kind of three
(03:37):
different types of advisors.
There's the broker-dealeradvisor, there's the you know,
xyz mutual insurance advisor,and then there's this kind of
hybrid which is in my space, isthe RIA space, and typically
these guys are fee-only and sotheir thing is they only get
paid by billing the clientdirectly to manage assets or do
(03:59):
planning.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Fine, I'm a little bit in all of those worlds and
when you say do planning, do youmean that, or do you mean
selling products?
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Well, the fee-only guys will say that they don't
sell products, but really whatthey do is they aggregate assets
.
The product is the investmentmanagement typically Right.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
They get paid by how much in assets they have under
their management AIM.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
They get paid by how much in assets they have under
their management, aim.
You know I get a littlefrustrated with it and I have.
The reason I'm telling this isto say that I have friends and
colleagues in each of theseworlds and so I have interesting
insight into what they're doing, and I'm in peer groups where
we talk about this stuff, thethings that they're doing, how
folks are innovating in theirpractice and doing some of this
stuff.
The fee-only guys bug me alittle bit because they pretend
(04:47):
that they are better thaneverybody else.
They're the knight in shiningarmor.
They only get paid by theirclients, but behind closed doors
.
What they're talking about ishow do we get more revenue from
our clients?
How do we do stuff to increaseour fees and it's fine.
But just transparency is goodall the way around, right?
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Right and they get paid the more money they have.
And we did our Facebook liveshow this morning and part of
that was talking about as a trueadvisor, as a true person for
the client.
If they want to spend money onsomething, we're all for it.
The AUM guy is like wait, hangon a second, you want to take
(05:29):
this money and put it into.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
Just defer Take your Social Security early.
Just defer taking money out forRMDs, because as the account
balance grows, so does theircompensation.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Look, there are some clients that I serve this way
because the model works for them, and that's fine, but what I
see behind closed doors thatother people don't see is they.
In some cases, they flat outlie about being fee only when
they're not.
There's one very prominent guywho, due to some relationships I
have in the insurance world,he's insurance licensed and
(05:58):
sells insurance and says that hedoesn't, and so that's one
that's like ridiculous.
But as one of the things thatwe're starting to see here is
this big focus towards planning,and I think planning is really
important and that's what weprovide for our clients, and
when I I want to frame it in thesense of you know, we really
try to solve the big problemsfor clients.
(06:21):
You know, saving 200 bucks ayear on, you know, this auto
insurance versus that autoinsurance really isn't moving
the needle for our clients.
My clients don't get excitedabout that.
I review that stuff for them tomake sure we don't have gaps in
coverage, but that's not a hugething.
Now, if we can save a couplemillion dollars in estate taxes,
that's an issue worth solvingand that's an issue worth paying
(06:41):
for, right.
And so what a lot of advisorshave begun to figure out is
estate planning is a prettyimportant part of the lifecycle
of a person, but also is part ofthe asset gathering and
management journey, right, andso what I'm seeing is this is a
long answer to a short question,but I think it's important to
see these pieces come together.
(07:02):
Question but I think it'simportant to see these pieces
come together.
We're seeing these tech-drivensolutions to either simplify or
automate template-based estateplanning, and it is being
pitched to advisors as anadditional revenue stream for
them and advisors that I knowthat are colleagues in some of
these worlds.
This is how they're doing itand personally it makes me
(07:24):
uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
They are creating trust in powers of attorney.
Estate planning documents.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
The way that they would say it is.
The client is filling out theforms and a template is being
created that always works outperfectly.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
There's no problems with that, right.
I want three trustees at thesame time.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Yeah, yeah, no big deal, but it's cheaper, right?
Yeah, it's cheaper, and so thisis where this is kind of the
rub, right.
And so, on one hand, there'salways going to be that client
who is going to find theabsolute cheapest option and
doesn't care about theconsequences.
We don't work for those clients.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
No, we don't, that's fine.
Just practice tip real quick.
If someone calls your secretarynumber one, don't let your
secretary give out prices.
That's a huge issue.
And if someone demands to knowthe price before they come see,
you, send them down the road.
It's okay.
You don't want to work withthem.
If you're demanding to knowwhat the price is, I don't know
(08:25):
what the price is because itdepends on what you need.
The price is going to be quotedonce we know what you need.
And if a client is demanding aprice, send them down the road.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
They're not worth it.
A good language pattern, I meansome people, you know they're,
they're trying to shop aroundand I and I and I appreciate
that a good language pattern forthat is look, if we don't, if
we give a prescription withoutdiagnosis, that's malpractice.
You wouldn't want your doctorto do that.
We're not going to do thateither, and so we have.
This is why there's the processand so it's.
(08:59):
There's always going to be thatsegment of the market, right,
the bottom 25%, the people thatare going to scrimp and save
every penny.
What we say on the radio showis save a buck, lose a fortune.
Those people I called a client,one of Todd's clients who I sat
in on the meeting.
They were doing beneficiarydesignations, powers of attorney
(09:20):
.
It was a pretty straightforwardplan for them.
We started talking.
I said, hey, what's the plan topay for long-term care if
that's an issue?
What's the plan to pay for this, that and the other?
And come to find out thegentleman.
He self-manages about $5million, and the number is not
the most important part.
The fact that he spends $60,000a year and expects to for the
(09:40):
rest of his life creates aninteresting challenge.
And so we talked through hisplan and his strategy a little
bit.
He's a DIY guy, you know, andhis wife was rolling her eyes
the whole time, you know.
This is a guy who'sself-important and thinks he
knows stuff, and I was.
I was asking him some questionsthat he should have known the
answer to.
Didn't know the answer to, sure, because I wanted him to be
thoughtful about it and we endedup not working together in any
(10:05):
bigger capacity.
But he called into the officeand was asking questions about a
will and so I said I got this,I'll take this one.
So I called him and I said look, and I'm going to call him Jim.
I said Jim, and I answered someof his basic questions and the
plan that Todd's team puttogether made sense generally
enough for them.
He wasn't going to pay for atrust.
(10:25):
He probably should have one,but he wasn't going to pay for
one.
So fine.
And I said, jim, I need you tounderstand and I need you to
hear this clearly If you don'thire someone to help you, it's
going to cost you millions ofdollars.
You are going to make themistakes that this is a basic
issue that you haven't figuredout, the complex issues that I
try to talk to you about that.
(10:46):
You have no clue A what theyare and B how they work is going
to cost you millions of dollars.
What was his response?
He stuttered a little bit andhe didn't like it, you know.
But this is that kind of client.
We can't help them, but we haveto tell them clearly that they
need to get help.
And so you're not going to getall of those right, but there
are clients who are good, honest, hardworking people that want
(11:08):
help and want advice.
Those are the kind of peoplethat that you want to help, and
right now they're being, they'rebeing offered solutions to
their problems that feel like agood fit, that feel like that's
going to save them a little bitof money, feel like it's more
efficient.
And so you know, as attorneys,you've got to face not only just
(11:28):
explaining why what you do isimportant, but why the other
solution is not going to work.
And so, from a marketingperspective, we need to get the
word out about this a little bit.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Well, I think a lot of attorneys don't see
themselves as salesmen.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
They're professionals , so I'm a professional.
I have to, just but you do.
And there's a great book byDaniel Pink, Um uh to sell is to
to live or something I mean.
It's.
It's about selling.
Everyone is a salespersonParents trying to get their kids
to eat their vegetables.
(12:02):
They're salesmen.
Okay, trying to get your kid togo take a nap.
You're selling the idea oftaking a nap Somebody's going to
win.
We are all salesmen.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
Best idea wins and we communicate it the best.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
And Ian, you know, as he's a friend, he's financial
advisor but he's kind of like my, my office consultant and he.
He pulled me aside one time.
He said, todd, you're notselling hard enough.
And I was like, wait a second,I don't.
He said these people need whatyou're offering and your
(12:38):
approach to that is very well OK, whatever.
He said no, if you knowsomeone's drowning, it's well
okay, whatever.
He said no, if you knowsomeone's drowning, it's like
here, take this life raft.
Okay, take this ring and saveyour life.
You're going to be veryforceful if they're like oh no,
I don't think I need it.
Yes, you do need this, you'redying.
You're going to make everyeffort to get them to take the
life raft.
And so you need to startthinking, like I have to say
(13:03):
look, I know these people needthis and I've got to be a little
more forceful, a little more.
And I always precede this withI know this sounds self-serving,
but you need to hire me to dothis for you because there are
so many issues here, me to dothis for you because there are
(13:23):
so many issues here and I'vereally started pushing more to
say you know, yes, you want tosave money, yes, you can get
this cheaper elsewhere, but I'mtelling you this is what you
need to do.
And I was real nervous aboutbringing in the financial
component, because I knew thesepeople needed help.
And I was real nervous becauseof the ethics rules about dual
business and things like that.
(13:44):
But pretty much without fail,when I said, look, your finances
are a mess, can I bring Ian inand help you?
And yes, I'm going to make somemoney from you hiring him as a
financial advisor, but I thinkhe can help you.
And they're like absolutely,bring him in.
I would love to talk to himbecause we're bringing to their
(14:05):
attention what is lacking.
And for those people that arelike you've got to be more
forceful, and I think the topicof this show today is there's a
lot of do-it-yourself things outthere.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
There's.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Google, there's ChatGPT, there are Dave Ramsey,
there's Susie Orman, and peopleare inundated with hey, do your
trust?
Do it now, where they fill outthe stuff and they make horrible
decisions.
And I think people do that witha lot of trepidation and they
(14:42):
would love to hear from you as aprofessional to say, hey, let
me explain this to you.
And as they're there and yousee a problem, you've got to
sell it.
You've got to be moreaggressive.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
Well, this is so good and we didn't think that we
were going down this road, but Ithink it's important that we
talk about it.
You know, and for a long time Ihave been wrongly trying to not
sell as well.
You know, like I am a goodsalesperson transparently I am.
And you know, through workingtogether more, I've really
(15:14):
started to push both of us andgo look to me.
It's actually an ethical issueand hang with me here, this is
really challenging, you know,but at least in our area, I
fully believe that if someonegoes to another attorney, odds
are they're not going to gettreated the right way in our
area.
I mean, statistically, I thinkthat's the case and you know,
(15:36):
even if it's another certifiedelder law attorney may or may
not get the level of servicethat we're providing.
Thanks, but I really want toframe it in that way.
And in my world for financialplanning, I know one good
financial planner in this areaand he doesn't work with clients
locally and they're on everycorner, yeah, I mean, there are
advisors everywhere up here.
(16:05):
It's something where I'm goingto say this very strongly, but
I'm going to challenge you totry to let this resonate with
you, if you're not careful andyou don't help those folks,
someone else will try to andthey may end up getting screwed.
That's really the concern.
That's what I said to Todd.
I was like Todd if they gosomewhere else, they're going to
get screwed, most likely.
And we can't help everyone.
(16:26):
We can't fix every problem, butif we don't do our best to
educate them and help the onesthat we can, that's harder on me
.
And look, you got to run yourpractice.
You got to be profitable.
There's nothing wrong withbeing profitable.
That's not unethical.
In fact, if you are profitableand you run a good business, you
can help more people.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
So if you're not profitable, you go out of
business and you're helping noone, so you've got to make a
profit.
I don't think anyone disagreeswith that and it's okay, right,
yeah, it's okay.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
But I really want you know and part of it is I do
believe, that what Daniel Pinksays is true that everything is
sales all the time, whether yourealize it or not.
Daniel Pink says is true thateverything is sales all the time
, whether you realize it or not.
And you have to come to the,and that's intense.
But I think it's a good thingif you think about it the right
(17:09):
way, because that gives you anopportunity to frame it in your
mind the right way.
I mean, if you're right, it'syour obligation to gently
convince the client that you'reright and it's in their best
interest to do that.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
So a phrase that I use and this sounds so arrogant,
but clients like it, you knowit turns a few off, that's fine,
go, go, do your stuff.
But the phrase that I use whenthey're like well, you know, I
just don't know if this is afair price or whatever.
I'm like you can find itcheaper.
Okay, I charge more than mostpeople because I do more than
(17:44):
most people.
And then that requires you to,number one, be better.
Okay, get software that doesthis very well, be good at the
software.
Make sure that the statementyou say, when you say you're
going to pay more with mebecause you get better stuff,
that needs to be the truth andit forces you to continue your
(18:07):
education, to maybe do coaching,to get your skill level up to a
point where you can charge more.
I tell people all the time youcan find it cheaper.
The guy down the street whodoes divorces and criminal,
he'll do a trust for you, I'mpretty sure.
And it'll be cheap.
Okay, it'll be probably a thirdof my price, but it's terrible.
(18:29):
Okay, it's based on a form thathe did back in the early 2000s
or 90s or God forbid, the 80s,the late 20th century, yeah, and
it's not up to date, it doesn'thave the powers.
He doesn't understand how toprotect the assets for the heirs
.
I mean, there's a lot of thingsthere and that forces you to
(18:51):
understand your documents and tounderstand and to be better
than the guy down the street.
And that's what some people arelooking for.
And I do charge a premium andvery few people tell me no.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
You know people by and large, this is hard.
Someone's going to email me.
By and large, people need to betold what to do, absolutely,
and they want to be told what todo.
I mean, really that's what theywant, you know, and a lot of
that does come down toconfidence.
Now, don't practice in an areawhere you're not competent, and
so that's another conversation,right?
But, um, you know, if you don'tbelieve that you provide the
(19:29):
best services in your area forthe client, my encouragement to
you is change that and providethose you know.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
I can help you with that, yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
And and that's.
That's kind of the.
But then, when you are havingthat conversation with someone,
another little language patternthat I like is if someone goes
boy, this, this is reallyexpensive.
This, this person down the roadwill do it cheaper, this.
It's going to sound kind oftough, but I'm going to tell you
, try it, Say, and why do youthink that is?
And just be quiet and let themsweat a little bit, and nine
(20:07):
times out of ten what they'regoing to say is well, it's
probably this or that, and justshut up, Don't talk.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Let them process that , yep.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
Because if you really are providing better service,
you're leading them along thepath to figure that out, and
that's how you do it.
I mean, they're challenging you.
It's fair to challenge themback, but that one works quite a
bit.
And let them tell the story.
Why do you think that is?
That's a good question.
And if you are an attorney,they're going to work their way
(20:37):
out.
They're going to work that out.
If you are an attorney, they'regoing to work their way out,
they're going to work that out.
And so you know, we got totalking a little bit about some
of this stuff, about, you know,these DIY options and these sort
of advisor led options.
But I don't want to kind offinish on that, because this is
going to be an area where thegap is going to continue to
(20:59):
close.
This is going to be an areawhere the gap is going to
continue to close.
I think you know the group ofpeople that are willing to
accept templates and DIY stuff,and you know AI generated stuff
is going to grow larger andlarger and larger it is, and so
that can be an opportunity todifferentiate or that could
crush you, and you've got todecide which one it's going to
(21:20):
be really.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Yeah, so join us next time where we're going to talk
about some of the things we'vedone in my practice, that is,
getting those people.
I mean, I have drasticallyincreased over the last six
months.
I have drastically increased mynumber of wealthy clients and
the number of trusts that I havedone and you know I don't sell
(21:44):
trust.
I actually discourage peoplefrom getting trust because a lot
of people don't need them.
But those who do need it andcan pay for it and if you charge
appropriately you can makesubstantial money I've had in
the last six months.
I've had three or four of mybest months ever and it's
because I've started seeingthese folks charging more and
(22:08):
the things I've done in myoffice, I think, appeal to
people and are getting them inand they're happy and they're
sticking with us and doing moreand more work.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
Well, you're also and I think this is fair to say
you're also solving biggerproblems for them.
Oh yeah, absolutely.
I mean, there's probably evenstuff that we've missed just in
the shuffle here, because Todd'sprocess is built to be
extremely efficient and we'reworking to add some other lanes
(22:38):
here and make it more of a evenbetter of a concierge process.
But you know, we're reallysolving problems that people
hadn't thought about and aregoing to be problems, and I
think, if you can embrace thatand go okay, if you believe that
it's true that people that havethe money to pay to solve
problems will pay to solve thoseproblems, and might as well be
(23:00):
you, Might as well be you andfigure out what the biggest ones
are and how to solve them.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Okay, join us next time and we'll delve into that.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
It's hard to answer that question.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
All right, thank you all very much.
Please like and subscribe andif you have questions, please
email me, todd at theelderlawcoachcom, and also join
us in August Okay, august of2024.
We will be doing a big, hugepush and join us then email us.
I'm Todd at the elder lawcoachcom.
Thanks, bye.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Thank you for joining this episode of the elder law
coach podcast.
For those eager to take theirelder law practice to new
heights and are interested inTodd's acclaimed coaching
program, visitwwwtheelderlawcoachcom.
With Todd Whatley by your side,the journey to becoming an
elder law authority has neverbeen more achievable.
(23:51):
Until next time, keep learning,keep growing and stay
passionate about elder law.
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