July 22, 2024 • 27 mins
Unlock the secrets to effective elder law and estate planning as we host Ian Weiner, a Certified Financial Planner, who shares his expertise on the critical risks of using templated legal documents and "do it yourself" financial advice. Discover why DIY and advisor-mediated estate plans often fall short and how improper documentation can lead to serious consequences. Ian and Todd Whatley expose the ethical concerns of financial advisors inflating legal service costs and stress the importance of consulting certified elder law attorneys for comprehensive estate planning.
In our advanced segment, we dissect sophisticated estate planning strategies tailored for high-net-worth individuals. Learn how integrating robust financial and tax strategies, such as charitable remainder trusts and AB trusts, can result in substantial tax savings. We emphasize the continuous need for personalized client relationships and collaborative teamwork to ensure strategic, effective estate planning. Tune in for an enlightening discussion that promises to equip you with the knowledge to safeguard your estate with expert legal guidance.
Check out our new website www.TheElderLawCoach.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:19):
Thank you.
Specialized experience, Whetheryou're an established attorney
looking to refine your expertiseor an emerging lawyer seeking a
successful foray into elder law, this is your masterclass.
Now let's get started with theluminary in the field.
Here's Todd Whatley.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
That's right.
This is the Elder Law Coach.
My name is Todd Whatley, I am acertified elder law attorney
and I am the Elder Law Coach,and I am so thankful that you
have joined me today.
And today I'm continuing fromthe previous episode.
You probably should go listento the previous podcast and get
some information there, becausewe are continuing.
Basically, we presented theproblem, what's the problem,
(01:00):
what's going on, and then todaywe're going to hopefully provide
some solutions to that.
And when I say we, I am herewith my good friend, ian Weiner.
Hey man, how are you?
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Todd doing well, this is a fun one.
Okay, I'm excited for this oneGood good.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
So last time we talked about the issue of people
can do a lot of things bythemselves.
Or think they can, can do a lotof things by themselves, or
think they can.
Well, yeah, I think they can.
They can do a trust, but itprobably stinks, but they can.
They're getting bombarded byDave Ramsey, susie Orman, just
(01:35):
general companies that rocketlawyer things like that that you
can do your own trust Makestotal sense, right?
There's nothing major theregoing on, and so they're doing
it.
And now they're even beingbombarded by their financial
advisor and probably their CPA.
(01:55):
We didn't talk about that thelast episode, but there are
companies out there that aremarketing to financial advisors
to say, hey, this will help youget your clients estate planning
order without the need for it.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Higher end clients.
If you do estate planningCompanies like Trust and Will,
wealthcom Get Vanilla.
Estately, I think is anotherone.
There's a handful of these,there's a lot, yeah, and what
they're doing is and we'll bebrief with this but what they're
doing is they're just doingtemplated documents for the
state.
You know, some attorneysomewhere has drafted them a
template and they've got theplugins and it happens.
(02:30):
What's interesting is, advisorswill, like some of them will
actually bill the advisor, youknow, a certain dollar amount to
create them and then theadvisor will then mark it up and
sell it to the client.
That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
I don't know how that's not practicing law
without a license.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
I find it to be reprehensible, frankly.
Okay, it's a strong word, butit's appropriate, but it's just
not the way that I think right.
I can think of maybe a coupleof very unique instances where
we would potentially dosomething like that, but it's
like look, we can't find acompetent attorney in New York
and we got to get somethingdrafted quickly.
(03:09):
Okay, well, you know it's seven50, get the thing done.
So you know we don't get introuble.
Fine, okay, but yeah, I don'tneed to make.
I don't need to make a thousandbucks on that.
I mean, come on, give me abreak.
Sure, sorry, it's these fee onlyguys that are my colleagues
that you know they're like howcan I take as many vacation days
(03:32):
a year, do as little work aspossible and bill my clients as
much as possible?
But they're fee only.
They only build their clientsand I'm like to the client.
So, wait, you're paying themaximum amount for them to
anyway.
So this is an issue.
This is an interesting issueand I think it's going to be
something that continues toevolve over time.
The bigger big wire houses, bigbanks, have been doing this
kind of thing for a long time,but now it's coming to more
(03:55):
asset aggregators, even the lifeinsurance only guys, the
mutuals and what have you, arestarting to do this more and
more and, from my perspective,this is a concern for estate
planning attorneys.
Yes, and why wouldn't it be?
Speaker 2 (04:10):
It's a huge concern that these people are not coming
to see you.
They're getting it doneelsewhere.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Oh, we got that done.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Right, we got that done.
And so how do you combat that?
Okay, how do you?
I was at a health fairyesterday morning in Tulsa with
my Tulsa folks and a lady cameby and I handed her our magazine
and the nine powers of thepower of attorney.
I said here.
She said no, no, no, you cantake that, I've already got this
(04:39):
done.
I said, oh, okay.
She said my son's an attorneyand he found someone in his
office to do this for me.
I said, oh, OK, and I said werethey an elder law attorney?
She said I don't know.
I said, well, please take thisand go through it and compare
your documents to the things wetalk about in this, we talk
(05:00):
about in this.
And so you know, and I canalmost guarantee you, if she
does that, unless this guy wasan elder law attorney, and
ideally a certified elder lawattorney she's going to find
that her documents don't do alot of the things that it should
have done, and that's done byan attorney.
Imagine the people who do thisby themselves.
(05:22):
It's like who do you want to betrustee?
Oh, I have three kids.
Let's name all three astrustees.
Well, as estate planners outthere, elder law attorneys.
You know that's a horrible idealet's just do outright gifts,
you know yeah outright gifts andwhen I die and my son's going
through a divorce, half of mymoney goes to my no-good
(05:43):
daughter-in-law.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
You know so soon-in-law, you know so soon to
be ex-daughter-in-law and soyou know it's, but that wouldn't
happen to any of your clients.
None of your clients would evergo through that stuff.
All of our clients are perfect.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
And so it's a struggle and I do a lot of
presentations, I do a lot ofeducation for the public to help
counter that.
And I think one thing that Ihave done to further counter it
and we're working together onthis his clients, his Ian's
(06:16):
financial clients, are coming inthinking that they're just
doing financial stuff and he'slike, hey, how would your power
of attorney, have you not done apower of attorney?
What about your will?
And I walk in the room andthere it is.
We're having a meeting betweenthe financial person and the
legal person.
It's collaborative and we getthe thing done and vice versa.
I have clients.
(06:37):
I'm like you know they mightmake a derogatory comment about
their investment advisor or howtheir money's invested.
I like well, would you like asecond opinion?
Yeah, that'd be great.
I walk out the door, walk downthe hall, grab Ian.
Ian comes in, sits down andagain we're solving legal issues
and financial issues at thesame time in the same meeting.
(07:00):
And man that just glues theclient to the office.
And man that just glues theclient to the office.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
The way that I want folks to start to think about
this is you can either look atthe rise of technology, ai, some
of these solutions, as you know, something scary or you can
look at it as an opportunity,and I need you to hear me out on
the ladder here, okay, so whatTodd and I are describing, the
(07:26):
way that we work together issomething that was typically
reserved for folks with $10, $15, $20-plus million.
You may have heard of this term.
It's called a family office,and so sometimes people talk
about this is how the wealthy dothings.
In this case, this is how thewealthy do things.
(07:47):
In this case, this is how thewealthy do things.
At a certain point, up untilrecently, you know, once a
family gathered a certain amountof assets, it made sense to
have all the professionalsin-house working together, you
know, and typically that was 50plus million dollars.
You know, we're in Walmart'sbackyard.
There's a very famous familyoffice here that serves that
family, right?
But what's interesting, and sothe concept is, you've got the
(08:10):
entire.
You've got the legal, theaccounting, the finance, the
investments, the insurance.
You've got the entire teamin-house working together for
the same client.
They're collaborating, they'reproactive, they're planning
together.
Sounds great, right?
Well, until recently, it's justbeen cost prohibitive to do
that.
And the reason is, in order toreally do that model right,
(08:35):
you've got to have A players.
You can't just have, like theneighborhood insurance guy or
the neighborhood financial guywho took the test and did some
sales training and puts peopleinto.
You know, whatever the mutualfund flavor of the month is,
it's just not going to work.
You got to have, you got tohave true A players.
Right, the way thatcommunication has been enabled a
(09:07):
little bit more through thingslike Zoom or Teams, what have
you?
We can create virtual familyoffices and use this model and
provide these services forclients at a significant
discount and at much lower assetlevels.
And so I want you to just begin,if you will, to kind of dream
about what this could look likefor your clients.
We could have everyprofessional at the table, and
(09:32):
what ends up happening is Toddand I sit in the seat of the
coordinator of this or thequarterback of this.
You've got your investmentperson, your insurance person,
maybe you have a real estateperson, a lender banker.
You've got, potentially, acorporate attorney.
You've got the estate planningattorney.
You've got the.
What else did I say I don'tknow.
(09:53):
I think I said all of them, butthese are people that they
accumulate in their life, right,but the problem is they don't
communicate with each other andthey don't work together Never.
It just doesn't happen, and oneof the reasons why is because
attorneys don't trust a lot offinancial advisors, because many
of them are incompetent and soyou guys don't know any of those
(10:16):
.
And so there's this trustdynamic.
But even if you have all ofthose professionals, they don't
communicate and they don't plancollaboratively together.
But what if you change that?
So what if you could bring allof those professionals to the
(10:38):
table?
And if they have great, youknow, if they've got a great
accountant, okay, great, keepthem.
If they don't have a greataccountant, okay, could you help
them find a better one andquarterback that relationship.
They have a good financialadvisor great, keep them on and
communicate with them.
But if they're not an A player,they're not being proactive
okay, we can replace that.
And so now you go from beingsomeone at the table, one of
(11:02):
their many professionals, tobeing the person who is driving
their planning team.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Look, it's a little bit more work.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
Realistically it's a little bit more work, but you
are proactively driving theseconversations in a way that no
one else in their world has everdone and none of their friends
have, I guarantee you.
And so all of a sudden, in theabsence of value, price becomes
an issue.
But when we sit across thetable from someone and we go,
(11:33):
hey, we'll do X, y and Z for you.
Yeah, we can coordinate withthe tax preparer for you, we can
do this for you.
We call it concierging.
It's kind of funny, we'llconcierge this for you.
I mean the folks that thisworks for.
It's like what I say look, we'llget together probably four
times in the next year and thenthe year after that will
probably be a few less times aswe get some of these things in
(11:55):
place, and our conversations aregoing to be different.
We're not talking about whathappened in the past and how
your accounts were.
We're not talking about the.
You know what happened in thepast and how your accounts were.
We're just talking about youknow what is, what travel plans
you have coming up, what's goingon and some other ideas that
are important to you, and it's adifferent philosophy and it's a
different, but that's whatpeople want.
That's what you would wantAbsolutely, and so you know what
(12:18):
we're encouraging you is tobuild out your team, and they
don't have to necessarily be inyour backyard.
This is the challenge.
I do this with folks all overthe country.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Yeah, there's a few coaching clients out there that
use Ian as the financial plannerfor their clients, and okay,
I'm going to say it thisstrongly I sell trust for them.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
And okay, I'm going to say it this strongly.
I sell trust for them becauseyou know they're used to going
to, you know the attorney, andgoing okay, we've got a
revocable living trust, fine,okay, we've got that, maybe we
need to update it.
And we start to ask a couplemore questions like hey, what's
the plan for long-term care?
We have to pay for that.
What's the plan for that?
Okay, what's the plan forestate taxes?
Well, we don't have thatproblem.
(13:02):
Are you sure?
Where's the balance sheet?
You're like well, we don't havea balance.
Okay, so you know, we put thattogether and go well, you might
not have an estate tax problemnow, but in two years, when the
limit gets, you know, basicallycut in half 40%, all of a sudden
we might have a problem.
And you know who else isbringing these problems to their
attention?
(13:22):
Nobody, absolutely nobody.
But all of a sudden you wentfrom being just another attorney
, another one of theirprofessionals, to being the lead
professional on their team andyou say, look, this could be a
potential issue, we need toexplore it.
What would you want to happenif you did have to pay 40%, if
your beneficiaries did have topay 40%, if your beneficiaries
(13:42):
did have to pay 40% in estatetaxes.
How would we pay for that?
I don't know.
Let's solve that problem, doyou know?
I mean, they will love youforever.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Yeah, I've got a client that I seriously.
Had Ian not been with me, theywould have come in.
I would have done revocableliving trust.
I would have done the AB trustbecause he told me, yeah, I'm
probably worth 10, 12 million.
Okay, well, that's going to bea concern, particularly in two
years, and so I would have donean AB trust.
(14:12):
Powers of attorney.
Thank you, appreciate yourbusiness.
Call me if you need me Done.
Okay, ian's there.
They have some concerns abouttaxes or different things that
their financial advisor was notbringing up.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
Neither of their.
They actually had threefinancial advisors, three
financial advisors.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
None of them addressed this.
We get to talking with them,they bring in their financial
stuff and we figure out they'reprobably pushing $30 million,
okay, and that opens up a wholearray of things.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
They are charitably inclined.
They want to give, you know,32% of their estate to charity.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Yeah, and so that opens up.
Before two months ago I hadnever done a charitable
remainder trust.
I've done a few, and I thinkthere's a bunch about to come
down the way I've never done it.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
We're doing like at least two a month right now.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Yeah, I've never done an allot and those are coming
down the road and Ian's going toget the big head here, but it's
because of him, it's becausehe's opened up my eyes and my
client's eyes to say, whoa, youdo nothing.
Like with this one client doingnothing.
He was going to pay was iteight or nine million?
Speaker 3 (15:27):
I mean it's probably a $10 million best case scenario
, that's, with no asset growth.
I think the estate taxconversation is so interesting
to me because for some reason,that's the one time we forget
about compounding interest, likethe advisors, the attorneys,
the clients.
They're like oh I'm not thereyet, I'm not talking about right
now.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Are you defined today ?
Speaker 3 (15:47):
Yeah, 7% rate of return over 10 years, the asset
is going to double, right Oops.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Oops, yeah, and 7% is very doable nowadays.
And so, yeah, their estatedoubles in 10 years and a few of
your clients are going to dietomorrow.
You've got to think down theroad, and so these people.
So, with Ian's planning, he'sgoing to cut that down to what
two or three.
Speaker 3 (16:10):
I mean, it'll be right.
Now we're getting some stuff.
In this particular case, thebulk of their assets is in real
estate single-family rental realestate which is a challenge
when you're in your late 70s tomanage 50 properties, right,
yeah.
And so we're consolidating that, and it'll be.
If they do it, I tell themthey'll pay no estate taxes.
(16:30):
Wow, from $10 million to zero,yeah, and it's going to cost
them probably $100,000 to get itdone.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Between my fees and your fees, they're going to pay
$100,000.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
That's it Between my fees and your fees.
They're going to pay $100,000.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
It's 1% of $10 million.
Yeah, I was trying to do themath there.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
That's 1%, 1%.
I mean, that's where now youhave to.
You've got to get to the pointwhere you can have these
conversations with your clients.
But this is the easiest sale inthe world.
We talked about sales in thelast one and I think it's
absolutely in the client's bestinterest.
This is the conversation.
Mr and Mrs Client, if you do X,y and Z, if we execute this
plan, we will save you $10million in taxes.
(17:11):
Be quiet, it's only going tocost $100,000.
I mean, and that wasn't eventhe price that I quoted them, it
was even less, you know.
But there's going to be somemore stuff to do because we had
to figure some stuff out.
But she's like I'm done quotingand she's getting out the
checkbook.
I'm like hang on, we're notready.
And she's like, well, do I makea check out now or what do we?
Speaker 2 (17:31):
you know, and I charged three times more than
I've ever charged for a trustbecause of the complexity and
the benefit that it was gettingthem.
And that's just one of thetrusts.
Yeah, we're probably going todo two or three more.
And I charged three times whatI normally charge and he didn't
blink.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
He's like yeah great, let's do it and it's absolutely
in the best interest of theclient they are going to be.
I mean, $10 million is a lot ofmoney in tax.
I mean, that's a lot of moneythat goes to the charity, that's
a lot of money that goes to thekids and the grandkids.
Now we have a whole host ofother issues here.
(18:09):
How do we make sure they don'tscrew that up?
And then really there's anongoing relationship there and
probably at that asset level,the estate the attorney needs to
be involved in that, you know,cause we've got family planning
dynamics and some other stuff.
But you know, that is not athat's not a challenging sale.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
It's not hard to sell that plan not at all.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
But what's hard is getting to the point where it
makes sense to do that Right,and that takes frankly, I think
it takes a team in most cases.
Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
And so these people you know, typically for 25 years
I've done, they call, we bringthem in, we get the information,
we do the documents, they comein, they sign.
Thank you good to see you callme if you need me, but hey, you
probably should come back fiveyears, no longer than 10 years.
Okay, thanks bye, and they'regone and you move on to the next
client.
There's about four clientsright now that it's like they're
coming in again.
(19:02):
They keep coming in to see us,or Ian, or there's always
something to be done and we'renot overcharging, we're not
overdoing it, we're solvingtheir problems, honestly,
undercharging.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
I need to overdoing it.
We're solving their problemsHonestly undercharging.
I need to raise my price.
That's another story.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
But these people are good clients and they talk to
other people and they are veryappreciative of what you're
doing and I tell you all thetime it's the best job in the
world.
And these people are veryappreciative of what we do and
they write the check.
(19:39):
They don't think twice about it, they just say, yeah, you've
shown me value.
And I will say that onlyoccurred because Ian and I work
together and we see theseclients with two different
focuses to truly solve theirproblem, and it results in more
(20:01):
business for him and results inmore business for me.
But the key thing is we'resolving the client's problem and
it's a problem that I wouldhave never seen.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
And you know most.
I'm painting with a broad brushhere and I have to be careful.
But most advisors and most ofthe estate planning attorneys
that I've worked with, thisisn't how they collaborate, but
the type of clients thateveryone wants, that can write
that kind of check, that wantsto solve those problems.
And I don't know, maybe youguys have experienced this,
(20:33):
maybe you haven't those problems, and I don't know, maybe you
guys have experienced this,Maybe you haven't, but the you
know you, you can have a clientwith an extra zero on the on the
fee, and typically they'reeasier to work with.
Yeah, like the, my leastprofitable clients tend to be
the hardest clients to work with.
You know the, the ones wherethere's an extra zero, uh,
they'll send K thanks, fee paid,k thanks and they're and you're
(20:54):
like what zero?
They'll send K thanks, fee paid, k thanks and you're like what?
And they're like, yeah, Ialready paid the invoice, it's a
different.
And so these are the clientsthat you want to have and these
are the people that you want toserve.
And if you don't have theseskills and the ability to bring
these relationships to the table, this is your opportunity to
(21:18):
begin that and we can help withthat.
We can help.
There are professionals thatI'll bring in on things, and the
way that we explain it is look,you're building a team we call
it a wealth team that has allthese components, and if you've
got current professionals,they're great.
We'll work with them, but youneed one person to quarterback
and coordinate that team andaddress these challenges, and
(21:41):
that will save you time, that'llsave you money and we'll get a
lot of it done.
The clients love it.
I'm doing one for someone today, actually in another state, and
they have the kid is thefinancial advisor for the
parents and the grandma, whichis a nightmare.
But and I say kid cause he'slike 22.
Sorry, but you know, I'm 24 nowso I can say that I'm just
(22:04):
kidding, but you know.
But these are the.
These are the types of thingsthat are going to be.
These are the types of clientsthat are very resistant to the
DIY services and the.
You know even the templatedadvisor services, right, because
you know they.
At a certain point, you get tounderstand that money is a tool
(22:26):
and the clients understand thatand what's most important to
them is their time and they willpay to not have to waste time
and if you can connect to that.
It's like if you can go, okay,that's my service, as I save
wealthy people time, you'll haveas many clients as you want,
but it takes relationships, ittakes a network and it takes
some knowledge.
And so if any of the folks thatare listening to this, whether
(22:49):
they're a coaching client ofyours or not, I'm happy to
consult on some of these cases,and you've got to not be a jerk
but the you know the way that Idon't work with jerks.
That's my, that's my thing, andnone of the folks that listen
to this would be would be jerksanyway.
We know that, you know.
But the way that it works is,you know, I'll have a
conversation with you, theattorney, and then we'll have a,
(23:12):
a Zoom call or a video callwith the client, and it's just a
data gathering call and whatwill happen is and hopefully
you've done some intake so Ihave enough to look at to be
able to ask some good questionsbut really you're going to
introduce me as the planningspecialist that helps on
advanced cases and all I'm goingto do is just ask questions
(23:32):
they may not have thought to askand see if there's any outside
of the box solutions.
This is a state tax, Medicaid,these kinds of things and if
there's not, great, it's no bigdeal.
But you look like an expertbecause you can bring someone in
who specializes in this.
All of a sudden, your equityjust went up with them and I
will tell you, ian understandsMedicaid better than I.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
I would say Prima Genie financial advisor.
He did the marital split spindown at an event that I could
not get to and my attorney wasthere and it was her first time.
I gave her some credit and shekind of froze and he was like I
got it.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
My guy's most of the way there.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Yeah, he did almost the entire marital split,
medicaid spin down, and so heunderstands how Medicaid works
and I would encourage that.
Yeah, call him.
Let him be involved with yourfolks and just ask people hey,
do you want a second opinion?
Let me.
I know this guy.
He understands what I do verywell.
(24:32):
Let him talk to you.
Let's just see what goes on.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
And the way that we integrate, even if they have
existing advisors, is, you know,and this is an easy
conversation for me to have withthem Look, most advisors either
focus on insurance or gatheringassets, and that's great and I
think that's important.
I act as a planner and so Icoordinate the big picture and
deal with things on a 30,000foot view that sometimes they
(24:56):
don't have the expertise in.
So I'm not coming in to disruptanything that you're doing, but
to help coordinate that.
And so you know, if that makessense, great, we can work
through that.
And then the way that Iactually am paid is if there's a
reason for me to engage withthe client, they will engage me
directly and we will worktogether and we'll and I will,
you know, give them transparencyon what the fee is and what's
(25:18):
going to happen, and blah, blah,blah.
So I'm happy to, for mostpeople, you know, jump on a call
and talk to the clients and Iwon't charge to do that at this
point.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
So so how did they get in touch?
Speaker 3 (25:29):
with you.
The easiest way to get to me isian at justretirenowcom.
Is my email, ian atjustretirenowcom.
Or they can call the office,479-601-4199.
Again, that's 479-601-4199.
Or you can call Todd and if helikes you then he'll send you
(25:49):
over to you.
He'll rent me out for a day.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
You can always contact me, todd at
theodolawcoachcom, or Tricia.
I would probably email both ofus, just to be safe.
Tricia checks her email waymore than I do.
But yeah, give me, shoot meover an email, give me a day or
two to answer it.
But yeah, todd attheodolawcoachcom, and I
(26:15):
encourage you to do this.
I think I've said in the lastpodcast, my three best months
have been during the last sixmonths, and I suspect that that
will just continue to grow, andit's because of these clients
that we just talked about.
So, give us a call, subscribeand we will see you on the next
(26:37):
podcast.
Okay, thanks.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Thank you for joining this episode of the Elder Law
Coach podcast.
For those eager to take theirelder law practice to new
heights and are interested inTodd's acclaimed coaching
program, visitwwwtheelderlawcoachcom.
With Todd Whatley by your side,the journey to becoming an
elder law authority has neverbeen more achievable.
(26:59):
Until next time, keep learning,keep growing and stay
passionate about elder law.
Thank you.
Specialized experience, Whetheryou're an established attorney
looking to refine your expertiseor an emerging lawyer seeking a
successful foray into elder law, this is your masterclass.
Now let's get started with theluminary in the field.
Here's Todd Whatley.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
That's right.
This is the Elder Law Coach.
My name is Todd Whatley, I am acertified elder law attorney
and I am the Elder Law Coach,and I am so thankful that you
have joined me today.
And today I'm continuing fromthe previous episode.
You probably should go listento the previous podcast and get
some information there, becausewe are continuing.
Basically, we presented theproblem, what's the problem,
(01:00):
what's going on, and then todaywe're going to hopefully provide
some solutions to that.
And when I say we, I am herewith my good friend, ian Weiner.
Hey man, how are you?
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Todd doing well, this is a fun one.
Okay, I'm excited for this oneGood good.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
So last time we talked about the issue of people
can do a lot of things bythemselves.
Or think they can, can do a lotof things by themselves, or
think they can.
Well, yeah, I think they can.
They can do a trust, but itprobably stinks, but they can.
They're getting bombarded byDave Ramsey, susie Orman, just
(01:35):
general companies that rocketlawyer things like that that you
can do your own trust Makestotal sense, right?
There's nothing major theregoing on, and so they're doing
it.
And now they're even beingbombarded by their financial
advisor and probably their CPA.
(01:55):
We didn't talk about that thelast episode, but there are
companies out there that aremarketing to financial advisors
to say, hey, this will help youget your clients estate planning
order without the need for it.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Higher end clients.
If you do estate planningCompanies like Trust and Will,
wealthcom Get Vanilla.
Estately, I think is anotherone.
There's a handful of these,there's a lot, yeah, and what
they're doing is and we'll bebrief with this but what they're
doing is they're just doingtemplated documents for the
state.
You know, some attorneysomewhere has drafted them a
template and they've got theplugins and it happens.
(02:30):
What's interesting is, advisorswill, like some of them will
actually bill the advisor, youknow, a certain dollar amount to
create them and then theadvisor will then mark it up and
sell it to the client.
That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
I don't know how that's not practicing law
without a license.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
I find it to be reprehensible, frankly.
Okay, it's a strong word, butit's appropriate, but it's just
not the way that I think right.
I can think of maybe a coupleof very unique instances where
we would potentially dosomething like that, but it's
like look, we can't find acompetent attorney in New York
and we got to get somethingdrafted quickly.
(03:09):
Okay, well, you know it's seven50, get the thing done.
So you know we don't get introuble.
Fine, okay, but yeah, I don'tneed to make.
I don't need to make a thousandbucks on that.
I mean, come on, give me abreak.
Sure, sorry, it's these fee onlyguys that are my colleagues
that you know they're like howcan I take as many vacation days
(03:32):
a year, do as little work aspossible and bill my clients as
much as possible?
But they're fee only.
They only build their clientsand I'm like to the client.
So, wait, you're paying themaximum amount for them to
anyway.
So this is an issue.
This is an interesting issueand I think it's going to be
something that continues toevolve over time.
The bigger big wire houses, bigbanks, have been doing this
kind of thing for a long time,but now it's coming to more
(03:55):
asset aggregators, even the lifeinsurance only guys, the
mutuals and what have you, arestarting to do this more and
more and, from my perspective,this is a concern for estate
planning attorneys.
Yes, and why wouldn't it be?
Speaker 2 (04:10):
It's a huge concern that these people are not coming
to see you.
They're getting it doneelsewhere.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Oh, we got that done.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Right, we got that done.
And so how do you combat that?
Okay, how do you?
I was at a health fairyesterday morning in Tulsa with
my Tulsa folks and a lady cameby and I handed her our magazine
and the nine powers of thepower of attorney.
I said here.
She said no, no, no, you cantake that, I've already got this
(04:39):
done.
I said, oh, okay.
She said my son's an attorneyand he found someone in his
office to do this for me.
I said, oh, OK, and I said werethey an elder law attorney?
She said I don't know.
I said, well, please take thisand go through it and compare
your documents to the things wetalk about in this, we talk
(05:00):
about in this.
And so you know, and I canalmost guarantee you, if she
does that, unless this guy wasan elder law attorney, and
ideally a certified elder lawattorney she's going to find
that her documents don't do alot of the things that it should
have done, and that's done byan attorney.
Imagine the people who do thisby themselves.
(05:22):
It's like who do you want to betrustee?
Oh, I have three kids.
Let's name all three astrustees.
Well, as estate planners outthere, elder law attorneys.
You know that's a horrible idealet's just do outright gifts,
you know yeah outright gifts andwhen I die and my son's going
through a divorce, half of mymoney goes to my no-good
(05:43):
daughter-in-law.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
You know so soon-in-law, you know so soon to
be ex-daughter-in-law and soyou know it's, but that wouldn't
happen to any of your clients.
None of your clients would evergo through that stuff.
All of our clients are perfect.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
And so it's a struggle and I do a lot of
presentations, I do a lot ofeducation for the public to help
counter that.
And I think one thing that Ihave done to further counter it
and we're working together onthis his clients, his Ian's
(06:16):
financial clients, are coming inthinking that they're just
doing financial stuff and he'slike, hey, how would your power
of attorney, have you not done apower of attorney?
What about your will?
And I walk in the room andthere it is.
We're having a meeting betweenthe financial person and the
legal person.
It's collaborative and we getthe thing done and vice versa.
I have clients.
(06:37):
I'm like you know they mightmake a derogatory comment about
their investment advisor or howtheir money's invested.
I like well, would you like asecond opinion?
Yeah, that'd be great.
I walk out the door, walk downthe hall, grab Ian.
Ian comes in, sits down andagain we're solving legal issues
and financial issues at thesame time in the same meeting.
(07:00):
And man that just glues theclient to the office.
And man that just glues theclient to the office.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
The way that I want folks to start to think about
this is you can either look atthe rise of technology, ai, some
of these solutions, as you know, something scary or you can
look at it as an opportunity,and I need you to hear me out on
the ladder here, okay, so whatTodd and I are describing, the
(07:26):
way that we work together issomething that was typically
reserved for folks with $10, $15, $20-plus million.
You may have heard of this term.
It's called a family office,and so sometimes people talk
about this is how the wealthy dothings.
In this case, this is how thewealthy do things.
(07:47):
In this case, this is how thewealthy do things.
At a certain point, up untilrecently, you know, once a
family gathered a certain amountof assets, it made sense to
have all the professionalsin-house working together, you
know, and typically that was 50plus million dollars.
You know, we're in Walmart'sbackyard.
There's a very famous familyoffice here that serves that
family, right?
But what's interesting, and sothe concept is, you've got the
(08:10):
entire.
You've got the legal, theaccounting, the finance, the
investments, the insurance.
You've got the entire teamin-house working together for
the same client.
They're collaborating, they'reproactive, they're planning
together.
Sounds great, right?
Well, until recently, it's justbeen cost prohibitive to do
that.
And the reason is, in order toreally do that model right,
(08:35):
you've got to have A players.
You can't just have, like theneighborhood insurance guy or
the neighborhood financial guywho took the test and did some
sales training and puts peopleinto.
You know, whatever the mutualfund flavor of the month is,
it's just not going to work.
You got to have, you got tohave true A players.
Right, the way thatcommunication has been enabled a
(09:07):
little bit more through thingslike Zoom or Teams, what have
you?
We can create virtual familyoffices and use this model and
provide these services forclients at a significant
discount and at much lower assetlevels.
And so I want you to just begin,if you will, to kind of dream
about what this could look likefor your clients.
We could have everyprofessional at the table, and
(09:32):
what ends up happening is Toddand I sit in the seat of the
coordinator of this or thequarterback of this.
You've got your investmentperson, your insurance person,
maybe you have a real estateperson, a lender banker.
You've got, potentially, acorporate attorney.
You've got the estate planningattorney.
You've got the.
What else did I say I don'tknow.
(09:53):
I think I said all of them, butthese are people that they
accumulate in their life, right,but the problem is they don't
communicate with each other andthey don't work together Never.
It just doesn't happen, and oneof the reasons why is because
attorneys don't trust a lot offinancial advisors, because many
of them are incompetent and soyou guys don't know any of those
(10:16):
.
And so there's this trustdynamic.
But even if you have all ofthose professionals, they don't
communicate and they don't plancollaboratively together.
But what if you change that?
So what if you could bring allof those professionals to the
(10:38):
table?
And if they have great, youknow, if they've got a great
accountant, okay, great, keepthem.
If they don't have a greataccountant, okay, could you help
them find a better one andquarterback that relationship.
They have a good financialadvisor great, keep them on and
communicate with them.
But if they're not an A player,they're not being proactive
okay, we can replace that.
And so now you go from beingsomeone at the table, one of
(11:02):
their many professionals, tobeing the person who is driving
their planning team.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Look, it's a little bit more work.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
Realistically it's a little bit more work, but you
are proactively driving theseconversations in a way that no
one else in their world has everdone and none of their friends
have, I guarantee you.
And so all of a sudden, in theabsence of value, price becomes
an issue.
But when we sit across thetable from someone and we go,
(11:33):
hey, we'll do X, y and Z for you.
Yeah, we can coordinate withthe tax preparer for you, we can
do this for you.
We call it concierging.
It's kind of funny, we'llconcierge this for you.
I mean the folks that thisworks for.
It's like what I say look, we'llget together probably four
times in the next year and thenthe year after that will
probably be a few less times aswe get some of these things in
(11:55):
place, and our conversations aregoing to be different.
We're not talking about whathappened in the past and how
your accounts were.
We're not talking about the.
You know what happened in thepast and how your accounts were.
We're just talking about youknow what is, what travel plans
you have coming up, what's goingon and some other ideas that
are important to you, and it's adifferent philosophy and it's a
different, but that's whatpeople want.
That's what you would wantAbsolutely, and so you know what
(12:18):
we're encouraging you is tobuild out your team, and they
don't have to necessarily be inyour backyard.
This is the challenge.
I do this with folks all overthe country.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Yeah, there's a few coaching clients out there that
use Ian as the financial plannerfor their clients, and okay,
I'm going to say it thisstrongly I sell trust for them.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
And okay, I'm going to say it this strongly.
I sell trust for them becauseyou know they're used to going
to, you know the attorney, andgoing okay, we've got a
revocable living trust, fine,okay, we've got that, maybe we
need to update it.
And we start to ask a couplemore questions like hey, what's
the plan for long-term care?
We have to pay for that.
What's the plan for that?
Okay, what's the plan forestate taxes?
Well, we don't have thatproblem.
(13:02):
Are you sure?
Where's the balance sheet?
You're like well, we don't havea balance.
Okay, so you know, we put thattogether and go well, you might
not have an estate tax problemnow, but in two years, when the
limit gets, you know, basicallycut in half 40%, all of a sudden
we might have a problem.
And you know who else isbringing these problems to their
attention?
(13:22):
Nobody, absolutely nobody.
But all of a sudden you wentfrom being just another attorney
, another one of theirprofessionals, to being the lead
professional on their team andyou say, look, this could be a
potential issue, we need toexplore it.
What would you want to happenif you did have to pay 40%, if
your beneficiaries did have topay 40%, if your beneficiaries
(13:42):
did have to pay 40% in estatetaxes.
How would we pay for that?
I don't know.
Let's solve that problem, doyou know?
I mean, they will love youforever.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Yeah, I've got a client that I seriously.
Had Ian not been with me, theywould have come in.
I would have done revocableliving trust.
I would have done the AB trustbecause he told me, yeah, I'm
probably worth 10, 12 million.
Okay, well, that's going to bea concern, particularly in two
years, and so I would have donean AB trust.
(14:12):
Powers of attorney.
Thank you, appreciate yourbusiness.
Call me if you need me Done.
Okay, ian's there.
They have some concerns abouttaxes or different things that
their financial advisor was notbringing up.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
Neither of their.
They actually had threefinancial advisors, three
financial advisors.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
None of them addressed this.
We get to talking with them,they bring in their financial
stuff and we figure out they'reprobably pushing $30 million,
okay, and that opens up a wholearray of things.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
They are charitably inclined.
They want to give, you know,32% of their estate to charity.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Yeah, and so that opens up.
Before two months ago I hadnever done a charitable
remainder trust.
I've done a few, and I thinkthere's a bunch about to come
down the way I've never done it.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
We're doing like at least two a month right now.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Yeah, I've never done an allot and those are coming
down the road and Ian's going toget the big head here, but it's
because of him, it's becausehe's opened up my eyes and my
client's eyes to say, whoa, youdo nothing.
Like with this one client doingnothing.
He was going to pay was iteight or nine million?
Speaker 3 (15:27):
I mean it's probably a $10 million best case scenario
, that's, with no asset growth.
I think the estate taxconversation is so interesting
to me because for some reason,that's the one time we forget
about compounding interest, likethe advisors, the attorneys,
the clients.
They're like oh I'm not thereyet, I'm not talking about right
now.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Are you defined today ?
Speaker 3 (15:47):
Yeah, 7% rate of return over 10 years, the asset
is going to double, right Oops.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Oops, yeah, and 7% is very doable nowadays.
And so, yeah, their estatedoubles in 10 years and a few of
your clients are going to dietomorrow.
You've got to think down theroad, and so these people.
So, with Ian's planning, he'sgoing to cut that down to what
two or three.
Speaker 3 (16:10):
I mean, it'll be right.
Now we're getting some stuff.
In this particular case, thebulk of their assets is in real
estate single-family rental realestate which is a challenge
when you're in your late 70s tomanage 50 properties, right,
yeah.
And so we're consolidating that, and it'll be.
If they do it, I tell themthey'll pay no estate taxes.
(16:30):
Wow, from $10 million to zero,yeah, and it's going to cost
them probably $100,000 to get itdone.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Between my fees and your fees, they're going to pay
$100,000.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
That's it Between my fees and your fees.
They're going to pay $100,000.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
It's 1% of $10 million.
Yeah, I was trying to do themath there.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
That's 1%, 1%.
I mean, that's where now youhave to.
You've got to get to the pointwhere you can have these
conversations with your clients.
But this is the easiest sale inthe world.
We talked about sales in thelast one and I think it's
absolutely in the client's bestinterest.
This is the conversation.
Mr and Mrs Client, if you do X,y and Z, if we execute this
plan, we will save you $10million in taxes.
(17:11):
Be quiet, it's only going tocost $100,000.
I mean, and that wasn't eventhe price that I quoted them, it
was even less, you know.
But there's going to be somemore stuff to do because we had
to figure some stuff out.
But she's like I'm done quotingand she's getting out the
checkbook.
I'm like hang on, we're notready.
And she's like, well, do I makea check out now or what do we?
Speaker 2 (17:31):
you know, and I charged three times more than
I've ever charged for a trustbecause of the complexity and
the benefit that it was gettingthem.
And that's just one of thetrusts.
Yeah, we're probably going todo two or three more.
And I charged three times whatI normally charge and he didn't
blink.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
He's like yeah great, let's do it and it's absolutely
in the best interest of theclient they are going to be.
I mean, $10 million is a lot ofmoney in tax.
I mean, that's a lot of moneythat goes to the charity, that's
a lot of money that goes to thekids and the grandkids.
Now we have a whole host ofother issues here.
(18:09):
How do we make sure they don'tscrew that up?
And then really there's anongoing relationship there and
probably at that asset level,the estate the attorney needs to
be involved in that, you know,cause we've got family planning
dynamics and some other stuff.
But you know, that is not athat's not a challenging sale.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
It's not hard to sell that plan not at all.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
But what's hard is getting to the point where it
makes sense to do that Right,and that takes frankly, I think
it takes a team in most cases.
Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
And so these people you know, typically for 25 years
I've done, they call, we bringthem in, we get the information,
we do the documents, they comein, they sign.
Thank you good to see you callme if you need me, but hey, you
probably should come back fiveyears, no longer than 10 years.
Okay, thanks bye, and they'regone and you move on to the next
client.
There's about four clientsright now that it's like they're
coming in again.
(19:02):
They keep coming in to see us,or Ian, or there's always
something to be done and we'renot overcharging, we're not
overdoing it, we're solvingtheir problems, honestly,
undercharging.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
I need to overdoing it.
We're solving their problemsHonestly undercharging.
I need to raise my price.
That's another story.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
But these people are good clients and they talk to
other people and they are veryappreciative of what you're
doing and I tell you all thetime it's the best job in the
world.
And these people are veryappreciative of what we do and
they write the check.
(19:39):
They don't think twice about it, they just say, yeah, you've
shown me value.
And I will say that onlyoccurred because Ian and I work
together and we see theseclients with two different
focuses to truly solve theirproblem, and it results in more
(20:01):
business for him and results inmore business for me.
But the key thing is we'resolving the client's problem and
it's a problem that I wouldhave never seen.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
And you know most.
I'm painting with a broad brushhere and I have to be careful.
But most advisors and most ofthe estate planning attorneys
that I've worked with, thisisn't how they collaborate, but
the type of clients thateveryone wants, that can write
that kind of check, that wantsto solve those problems.
And I don't know, maybe youguys have experienced this,
(20:33):
maybe you haven't those problems, and I don't know, maybe you
guys have experienced this,Maybe you haven't, but the you
know you, you can have a clientwith an extra zero on the on the
fee, and typically they'reeasier to work with.
Yeah, like the, my leastprofitable clients tend to be
the hardest clients to work with.
You know the, the ones wherethere's an extra zero, uh,
they'll send K thanks, fee paid,k thanks and they're and you're
(20:54):
like what zero?
They'll send K thanks, fee paid, k thanks and you're like what?
And they're like, yeah, Ialready paid the invoice, it's a
different.
And so these are the clientsthat you want to have and these
are the people that you want toserve.
And if you don't have theseskills and the ability to bring
these relationships to the table, this is your opportunity to
(21:18):
begin that and we can help withthat.
We can help.
There are professionals thatI'll bring in on things, and the
way that we explain it is look,you're building a team we call
it a wealth team that has allthese components, and if you've
got current professionals,they're great.
We'll work with them, but youneed one person to quarterback
and coordinate that team andaddress these challenges, and
(21:41):
that will save you time, that'llsave you money and we'll get a
lot of it done.
The clients love it.
I'm doing one for someone today, actually in another state, and
they have the kid is thefinancial advisor for the
parents and the grandma, whichis a nightmare.
But and I say kid cause he'slike 22.
Sorry, but you know, I'm 24 nowso I can say that I'm just
(22:04):
kidding, but you know.
But these are the.
These are the types of thingsthat are going to be.
These are the types of clientsthat are very resistant to the
DIY services and the.
You know even the templatedadvisor services, right, because
you know they.
At a certain point, you get tounderstand that money is a tool
(22:26):
and the clients understand thatand what's most important to
them is their time and they willpay to not have to waste time
and if you can connect to that.
It's like if you can go, okay,that's my service, as I save
wealthy people time, you'll haveas many clients as you want,
but it takes relationships, ittakes a network and it takes
some knowledge.
And so if any of the folks thatare listening to this, whether
(22:49):
they're a coaching client ofyours or not, I'm happy to
consult on some of these cases,and you've got to not be a jerk
but the you know the way that Idon't work with jerks.
That's my, that's my thing, andnone of the folks that listen
to this would be would be jerksanyway.
We know that, you know.
But the way that it works is,you know, I'll have a
conversation with you, theattorney, and then we'll have a,
(23:12):
a Zoom call or a video callwith the client, and it's just a
data gathering call and whatwill happen is and hopefully
you've done some intake so Ihave enough to look at to be
able to ask some good questionsbut really you're going to
introduce me as the planningspecialist that helps on
advanced cases and all I'm goingto do is just ask questions
(23:32):
they may not have thought to askand see if there's any outside
of the box solutions.
This is a state tax, Medicaid,these kinds of things and if
there's not, great, it's no bigdeal.
But you look like an expertbecause you can bring someone in
who specializes in this.
All of a sudden, your equityjust went up with them and I
will tell you, ian understandsMedicaid better than I.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
I would say Prima Genie financial advisor.
He did the marital split spindown at an event that I could
not get to and my attorney wasthere and it was her first time.
I gave her some credit and shekind of froze and he was like I
got it.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
My guy's most of the way there.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Yeah, he did almost the entire marital split,
medicaid spin down, and so heunderstands how Medicaid works
and I would encourage that.
Yeah, call him.
Let him be involved with yourfolks and just ask people hey,
do you want a second opinion?
Let me.
I know this guy.
He understands what I do verywell.
(24:32):
Let him talk to you.
Let's just see what goes on.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
And the way that we integrate, even if they have
existing advisors, is, you know,and this is an easy
conversation for me to have withthem Look, most advisors either
focus on insurance or gatheringassets, and that's great and I
think that's important.
I act as a planner and so Icoordinate the big picture and
deal with things on a 30,000foot view that sometimes they
(24:56):
don't have the expertise in.
So I'm not coming in to disruptanything that you're doing, but
to help coordinate that.
And so you know, if that makessense, great, we can work
through that.
And then the way that Iactually am paid is if there's a
reason for me to engage withthe client, they will engage me
directly and we will worktogether and we'll and I will,
you know, give them transparencyon what the fee is and what's
(25:18):
going to happen, and blah, blah,blah.
So I'm happy to, for mostpeople, you know, jump on a call
and talk to the clients and Iwon't charge to do that at this
point.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
So so how did they get in touch?
Speaker 3 (25:29):
with you.
The easiest way to get to me isian at justretirenowcom.
Is my email, ian atjustretirenowcom.
Or they can call the office,479-601-4199.
Again, that's 479-601-4199.
Or you can call Todd and if helikes you then he'll send you
(25:49):
over to you.
He'll rent me out for a day.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
You can always contact me, todd at
theodolawcoachcom, or Tricia.
I would probably email both ofus, just to be safe.
Tricia checks her email waymore than I do.
But yeah, give me, shoot meover an email, give me a day or
two to answer it.
But yeah, todd attheodolawcoachcom, and I
(26:15):
encourage you to do this.
I think I've said in the lastpodcast, my three best months
have been during the last sixmonths, and I suspect that that
will just continue to grow, andit's because of these clients
that we just talked about.
So, give us a call, subscribeand we will see you on the next
(26:37):
podcast.
Okay, thanks.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Thank you for joining this episode of the Elder Law
Coach podcast.
For those eager to take theirelder law practice to new
heights and are interested inTodd's acclaimed coaching
program, visitwwwtheelderlawcoachcom.
With Todd Whatley by your side,the journey to becoming an
elder law authority has neverbeen more achievable.
(26:59):
Until next time, keep learning,keep growing and stay
passionate about elder law.
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