February 1, 2025 • 47 mins
Ever wondered what it takes to identify and combat elder abuse effectively? Join us as we sit down with Leslie Albrecht, a leading authority on elder abuse, who shares her transformative journey from her early days with the San Diego Police Department to establishing the pioneering Elder Abuse Unit in 2000. Leslie offers a candid look at the struggles of recognizing elder abuse as a criminal offense and the critical need for law enforcement training. Listen to her compelling insights on the pervasive issue of financial exploitation among seniors and learn why distinguishing between criminal acts and social issues is vital in protecting our most vulnerable populations.
Our conversation navigates the intricacies of elder financial abuse, with Leslie shedding light on subtle signs that can often go unnoticed. We delve into the complexities of family dynamics and the importance of creating a safe space for seniors to voice their concerns without fear of intimidation. Discover the nuanced techniques investigators use, such as observing body language and ensuring confidential interviews, to ensure seniors aren't coerced into unwanted financial decisions. Through Leslie’s expert lens, gain invaluable knowledge on how to protect seniors' autonomy while preventing them from becoming unwitting financial resources for others.
As we turn our focus to the challenges within the elder care system, Leslie highlights shocking gaps in caregiver background checks and the unintended consequences of technology in elder scams. Her stories are a stark reminder of the broader societal neglect faced by seniors, urging immediate reforms. We dive into real-life cases of elder abuse, stressing the importance of awareness and collaboration in building strong legal cases. Leslie’s insights underscore the need for careful caregiver selection and maintaining seniors' independence, offering a clarion call for society to reevaluate how we safeguard our elderly community.
To contact Ms. Albrecht:
Albrecht Consulting/Criminal Investigations
San Diego Police Department- Detective (Ret.)
901 E St. Louis St. Ste 107
Springfield. Mo. 65806
(417) 771-5899-Desk
(619) 992-8682-Cell
Check out our new website www.TheElderLawCoach.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Thank you.
Specialized experience, Whetheryou're an established attorney
looking to refine your expertiseor an emerging lawyer seeking a
successful foray into elder law, this is your masterclass.
Now let's get started with theluminary in the field.
Here's Todd Whatley.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
That's right.
This is the Elder Law Coachpodcast.
My name is Todd Whatley and, asalways, I'm extremely thankful
that you are here with us, andtoday we have a fantastic guest.
It's not just me talking today,I have a guest that, if you've
done elder law for probably morethan about two days, you have
(00:58):
probably seen some elder abuse,and today's expert is Leslie
Albrecht, and she is a elderabuse expert.
So, leslie, thanks for beingwith us today.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Thank you, Todd.
I'm very excited to be here.
It's always good to get theword out when we can, Leslie.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
I think your history is very interesting, so tell us
how you got into this.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
My career in law enforcement started in 1989 when
I joined the San Diego PoliceDepartment and like all law
enforcement agencies, you startat the very bottom and you just
sort of work your way throughwhatever section of law
enforcement you want to get into.
And in 2000, I decided to putin for investigation.
I received that promotion and Iwas selected as one of six
(01:45):
investigators to start the SanDiego Elder Abuse Unit.
So the San Diego PoliceDepartment started the very
first dedicated investigativeteam of detect.
To this day, elder abuse isinvestigated by law enforcement
(02:08):
but it's often tucked intoinvestigations of domestic
violence, investigations ofchild abuse.
Investigators that have thosecases tend to also get the elder
abuse cases.
Well, you can imagine whathappens you get pushed to the
bottom of the back because thereis so much domestic violence
and so much child abuse thatthese cases often get overlooked
(02:28):
.
So San Diego saw that and saidwe need to start dedicating some
expertise into this.
And so I was one of sixinvestigators that started that
unit and I ended up stayingthere.
I really took to it and enjoyedit and I ended up staying there
for about almost 10 years andreally honed in on my craft and
I've been doing it ever since.
Now my law enforcement career.
(02:48):
After 10 years in that unit, Iwent into other units, but I
have always maintained, you know, one foot in this field at all
times.
And once I retired in 2014, Idecided to start up my own
practice.
I got my PI license and I'malso doing expert witness now.
(03:09):
I've traveled the country, havetaught in just about every
state there is.
I have taught at academies.
I've taught sworn, non-sworn, Imean, you name it social
workers, attorneys.
I've been a keynote speaker andI've also testified in multiple
elder abuse cases.
So, yeah, really, really haveenjoyed it and also found that
(03:31):
there's not much expertise in itin this country.
So I've had a lot of work.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Sure.
So what do you see as beingmost challenging in this line of
work?
Speaker 3 (03:43):
I can tell you right off the bat, the number one
challenging is getting lawenforcement agencies to even
recognize this as a crime.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Thank you, Every time I have called and I have clear
evidence and they're like thisis a civil matter.
This is a civil matter and I'mlike so how do you address that?
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Well, you know, the first thing I say is well, if
it's a civil matter, let's takea look at your law book and see
if we can find it.
And we immediately find it,don't we?
So theft is theft, physicalassault is physical assault, and
depending on the circumstancesis what type of crime you have.
And so when I point this out toour young officers in the
(04:24):
academies, or even our seasonedofficers, who arrive on a scene
and don't realize what they'relooking at, then the big light
bulb comes on.
Then the next challenge isgetting the superiors to
acknowledge it, getting thatagency to actually start getting
some training in there, becauseif the officer responding to
(04:45):
the case doesn't understand thatit's even a criminal matter,
how's he going to know how toinvestigate it?
So that is the number one issue,and I thought way back many,
many years ago that we wouldslowly get that word out.
And we have gotten the word out.
But the problem is acceptance.
Acceptance and taking it in asunderstanding this is not a
family problem or there is athing as coercion and undue
(05:08):
influence, and that people canbe talked right out of their
life savings.
So, yeah, I would say that'sthe biggest frustration.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Okay, so you kind of delved into it.
So how would you define elderabuse?
Speaker 3 (05:21):
Elder abuse is a crime perpetrated against a
senior.
Depending on the state, itcould start at age 60 or 65.
You can be a senior in manystates at 55.
To be an actual elder, whereyou're protected within the law,
it's usually 60 or 65.
The law has recognized that ourseniors in our country are as
(05:49):
vulnerable as children, and sowe have to protect them.
The one difference is they havemoney and our children don't.
So the number one crimeperpetrated against elderly and
when you say elder abuse, peoplego gross.
That's somebody lying in theirfilth and those home care
agencies and the facilities.
And yes, that does happen.
(06:11):
That is true, but the actualnumber one crime perpetrated
against the elderly is fiduciary.
It's financial and it is in themulti-billion dollar point at
this, and so you have many types, so the top one is fiduciary.
I see financial issues involvedin almost every type of elder
abuse.
It is very rare to find anelder abuse case where money is
(06:34):
not at some point involved in it.
I would absolutely agree withthat, you've got to go back the
layers and find it.
There's always a motive andit's almost always money.
And then you have physicalabuse and you have neglect.
And then there's alsoself-neglect.
But that's not a crime.
So the investigator needs tounderstand is this a social
issue or is this a crime?
So it is a kind of crime thatyou've got to understand these
(06:58):
layers and all that goes into it.
So you have physical, you haveneglect, criminal level neglect
that could be shredded by acaretaker, and then you have
physical.
you have neglect, criminal levelneglect that could be shredded
by a caretaker.
And then you have fiscal,financial neglect.
I often see people say verbalabuse.
You know verbal abuse happensin elder abuse cases but you
cannot charge just on verbalabuse.
(07:20):
Social workers call me and gooh, they're just the son or the
daughter is just so horrible tothis person and they call them
names and they ridicule them.
Now we want to dive into it,see if maybe more is going on.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Probably is yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Yeah, but just in itself being an idiot, a jerk or
whatever you want to callsomebody we cannot do a case or
charge them.
And I often say to groups whenI teach we'd be putting half of
America in custody if it's beingjust a jerk, because you know
you can't do that.
So that's what you see in thetypes of cases.
I want to make sure I've listedthem all.
We've got physical assault,we've got theft, we've got
(07:57):
neglect.
I think that's self-neglect.
Did I forget one?
Speaker 2 (08:01):
I don't think so I think that's all of them.
Yeah, that's a pretty good list.
So what are some signs?
I mean as attorneys, since thispodcast is going out toward
attorneys what are things thatwe need?
Speaker 3 (08:14):
to be looking for.
I'll tell you, the first thingand I'm sure your guests will
recognize this is when you havesomeone bring in a senior to
start maybe working on an estateplan or suddenly have an estate
plan change.
You want to pay close attentionto that.
We expect our seniors to startgetting their affairs in order
and that's absolutely fine.
But pay attention to who'swalking in your office.
(08:36):
Do you know that senior?
Sometimes you know your clientsand you've known them for many,
many years and you know thefamily and you know the dynamics
.
You've worked with them beforeon maybe some other legal issues
they've needed.
Well then, obviously, pay closeattention to that.
Attorneys in most states are notmandated reporters of elder
abuse because you have thatprivacy privilege.
(08:56):
However, I would hope ethicallythat attorneys would always try
and do the best to theirability to protect.
So if you see someone come in,something's not right, the
senior's looking extra nervous,the senior seems hesitant, the
senior is mentally not sharp.
You know you've got to do yourdue diligence and you want to do
(09:19):
a separation and you neverspeak to your client in front of
the other persons that mighthave arrived with them initially
.
Ok, so now I know if a clientwants a person in a room, we've
got to let them do that.
But if there's a possible wayyou can do a separation where
you can spend a reasonableamount of time just you and that
(09:40):
senior talking to them, askingsome basic questions, engage in
a conversation and see if itseems right and if your gut's
telling you something's notright, and even if you can't
pinpoint it, still make thatcall.
I always tell everyone reportsuspicion.
You cannot be held liable.
You know if a report ofpotential elder abuse is made in
(10:03):
good faith you cannot legallybe liable for that.
You're also kept anonymous andI worked in elder abuse issues
in multiple states.
I don't see any social servicesthat ever give that information
away.
That is highly maintained.
It would take a court orderfrom a judge to give away who
the reporting party is.
I've never seen it relevant ina case.
Anyway, we could get right intowhat you find when you got the
(10:26):
report.
So spend some time and talk tothem.
And what did they want?
Talk to them about their family.
Talk to them and know theanswers ahead of time, because
seniors who are starting to havecognitive issues can very
easily do what's called maskingor they can very well make it
look like they're answering thequestions normally.
(10:48):
Now you can say tell me aboutyour children.
Well, I had three kids, but noahead of time.
Do they?
Or do they have five?
right and what are their namesand what are their ages and what
do you want to see?
Well, you know it's really mydesire to have everything even.
But my kids are really upsetand they might very well bring
you into the family dynamics.
Don't get yourself wrapped upin some legal problem if you can
(11:11):
help it.
So if you start seeing thoselegal dynamics, it's always
easier to back off.
You start hearing about thefamily you know well.
They brought me in here.
They really want this and youknow those things.
You've heard them in your world.
Back off of it.
Make another appointment.
Find a reason to delay them ifyou're not comfortable
confronting, but make that 1-800phone call to your local elder
(11:33):
abuse hotline and at least getit looked into.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Yeah.
So I come across this a lotbecause I do a lot of Medicaid
and I think a lot of ourattorneys do Medicaid and
there's a five year.
Look back on gifts and peoplesometimes don't consider making
a child's car payment as a gift.
Well, it is, or, you know,paying off things or giving
(11:56):
college money or whatever.
I've got a guy just this weekand he's been making his
daughter's his 47 yearolddaughter's car payment for the
last two or three years, youknow, and it's just like, yeah,
he spent his money the way hewants, if he's cognitively sound
to do it.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
And that's what's key is we want to make sure he is
making the.
But then again, see and that'swhy you've got to understand the
layers I've had it where, inyour case, like, let's say that
man has always done that, he'salways done that for 20 years
and now he's starting to showsome cognitive issues.
And somebody in the familymight go, uh-oh, he's got
(12:34):
cognitive issues.
He can't be doing that, but theinvestigation's going to show
that that has been his norm for20 years.
We don't have a crime.
Now what we want to do is gethim into the social side, get
him set up, because he clearlyis starting to fail cognitively.
But as far as what he's beendoing has been a habit, and so
you look at that.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Yeah, let's delve into that just a little bit,
because my, you know, one of myquestions is and I always tell
my coaching clients, we need tohonor our clients' dignity and
you know, autonomy, okay, buteven though this person has no
dementia, you know where do wedraw the line between you know
(13:18):
pressure from a daughter to say,you know, I've got to get to
work and I can't get to work ifI don't have this car and I need
you to make this payment, andthem feeling tremendous pressure
from someone but yeah, they'recompetent, and the difference
between doing it voluntarily ordoing it under undue influence.
(13:39):
I'm sure that's a very fineline.
It sure can be.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
Again, that takes getting into their life, getting
into their world, which ofcourse you can't do.
You have a business to run andthat's where my world comes in.
So and that's where I try totalk to these officers Don't
just walk up to the door, knockon it, spend 30 seconds saying
hello and saying everythinglooks great here and walk away,
get in and figure out what'sgoing on.
(14:06):
So that fine line, a lot of itis just your gut feeling that
something doesn't seem right.
Maybe they're just a little off, and in order to see the
difference, you know, again,that just takes looking at the
family dynamics.
Like one of the things I'll doas an investigator is, of course
, I sit down with my senior andthey absolutely have to be alone
(14:29):
and I want them to feelcomfortable in their environment
and I want them to feel likethey can open up to me.
So I'll spend quite a bit oftime just visiting with them,
just talking, and then, oncethey start to feel a little
comfortable with me, then Istart to ask them questions
about the family dynamics and itmight come out just in a
conversation about how I don't,you know, I don't, I want to
(14:53):
help my daughter.
Maybe they'll say but I'm on afixed income and I just can't
afford it.
But I tell you she gets soangry and I, and that just
assists.
You know, I just get, I don'twant her to get nervous.
Well, are you scared of her?
They might say, no, I'm notscared, but I don't like it when
they get angry.
So you have to take in all thatas an investigator, taking all
(15:13):
that as an investigator.
I do a ton of description in myinvestigation, in other words,
when I'm writing my reports, Italk about my entire environment
, what those homes looking like,who's living in what rooms,
who's driving what cars.
Because we'll have someone comeinto a senior's life and take
over their home and take overthe master bedroom and take over
(15:34):
the nice car in the drivewaymaster bedroom and take over the
nice car in the driveway.
So let's see if everythingagain is normal behavior for the
family, if this is suddenchange behavior.
Can the senior afford it, youknow?
And then at some point I'mgoing to actually talk to the
person who might be takingadvantage of the parent and find
out what they have to say.
You will hear them and I'm sureyou have.
(15:55):
Well, I'm the only kid in thefamily that really pays
attention to mom and dad and I'mthe only one who cares for them
and my brother and sister arejust too busy and they just
don't have the time and I'mthere day in and day out, so I
deserve it.
Well, that's really not how itworks.
So I've often had to tellpeople you have to wait till you
inherit to take yourinheritance.
(16:16):
They're actually still alive.
So, again, we look at thedynamics of it all I look at.
My whole thing is to getcooperation from my senior and
if I start getting cooperationthen I can, you know, I can get
more truth out of them if it'sactually working right or
they're going to cover up andthey're going to be scared and
they're going to be nervous.
(16:37):
And that's another thing wetrain investigators to do is
look at the person's bodyreaction, look at their face.
Look at their eyes dartingaround and nervous that that
caretaker is going to walk inthe room and hear what we're
talking about.
Pay attention, the person who'scaring for the senior.
If that's our perpetrator.
Pay attention, the person who'scaring for the senior, if that's
(16:57):
our perpetrator, are theyhovering, are they answering for
the senior?
And these are all red flagsthat I start going oh, I'm not
going away.
Or sometimes after two hoursI'm absolutely satisfied,
Everything's fine and I have aticked off sibling.
That's just, that's jealous.
And the senior, you know,because this is the thing, you
can spend your money on anybodyyou want to, and you can spend
(17:19):
your money in this country anyway you want to.
You are free to do so.
So what we have to figure outis are you cognitively making a
good decision?
Are you coerced or do you justnot know what you're doing?
I have people that I call thelocal atm a senior living alone
in a house that has quite a bitof money and the local dirtbags
(17:39):
in the neighborhood figure itout and start showing up at the
front door to be their new bestfriend and they become the local
ATM.
So we have to go in and figureout.
So sometimes it's a matter ofgetting their permission and
I'll have them fill out a formto where I can take a look at
their finances.
Sometimes they'll say I haven'tseen my finances.
I don't know how much money Igave all that over to, you know,
(18:01):
my son or my daughter or mycousin or whomever is taking
care of them, and so I don'tknow how much money.
Well, why don't we go take alook together?
And sometimes I find nothingand I go away, and other times I
find something.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Tremendous, yeah.
So yeah, it's interesting how Itypically do it.
If the kid comes in with theparent, I will bring them both
in initially and just have veryopening conversations, nothing
in depth, and then if I start tosense something, I will ask the
kid to leave Because you know,like you said, the older person
(18:35):
is very nervous.
They're not used to lawyers andI'll bring them in so that they
can say that I'm generally anice guy and this is not going
to be high pressure.
But then I asked the kid toleave and they're like oh, mom
can't answer questions withoutme.
I'm like, yes, she can.
Well, if she truly can't, thenwe need to do a guardianship,
but if if she can answerquestions, you need to leave
(18:57):
that resistance.
If there is resistance, that'sa huge red flag that okay, I
know what we're dealing with now, and so you absolutely, um,
yeah, eventually they well, Imean, I've had some not leave.
I'm like, if you don't leavethe room, I will not represent
your mom right.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
You know, and you can easily explain it to them, that
you can even tell them it's arequirement that I talk to them
individually just to make sureeverybody's on the same page,
and they just shouldn't have aproblem with that.
You know now.
The second thing I see a lot ofpeople do is they love to wave
that power of attorney in frontof you as if it gives them free
reign to do anything in aperson's life and when and I've
(19:36):
had officers fall for that Well,they had power of attorney,
they had power of attorney andso and you could see a young
officer, right, they don't go tothese calls every day and they
get very little training, if any, in the police academy and they
will show up at a house or at abank or wherever they're
getting called and they see thispaperwork being thrown out.
I'm the power of attorney andeverybody's arguing but what
(20:01):
about guardianship?
And they hear all these wordsin these terms that they don't
get.
So they just back up.
I don't know.
Power of attorney, legal mumble, jumble, I don't know.
I'm just going to back off.
I think this is just an issue.
We'll have officers not doanything, but at least they'll
make a call to adult protectiveservices.
So at least they'll make a callto Adult Protective Services,
so at least we'll get them inthe system and we'll have a
social worker digging a littlefurther.
So I at least try to get theofficers to understand that
(20:22):
anytime they walk into asenior's house, if anything's
being accused of by anyone,whether you believe it or not at
least when you leave you haveto make a report that you were
there and what the issue was, sothat we can go behind them.
When I say we, I mean the socialworkers, because I work so
close with them, and the socialworkers will then get that they
have within.
It depends on the state, butmost have to respond within 10
(20:45):
days, unless it's an emergencyright now, and then they have to
go out and start digging alittle further, and they're
highly trained on looking at thered flags and the issues, and
they then send a report over forlaw enforcement if they uncover
something that couldpotentially be criminal.
And that's how I often almostalways got my cases were
(21:05):
referred from social workers orreferred from officers the
social workers.
The first thing they'll say iswell, we called the police, they
didn't do anything because theysaid it was civil.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Civil, her family matter.
Yeah, there we go yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
So I've had to fight a few times.
I've even had to fight withprosecutors who don't want to
take my case, especially hereI'm currently in Missouri.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
And it is a lot to learn in the field of elder
abuse out here.
A lot, there's a lot to learn.
This is one of the reasons Igot so passionate into this.
I was so excited to be a brandnew detective.
And the reason I got into theelder abuse unit was because I
had done a few cases and I knewif I put in for it I might have
a chance to get it.
And when I got it for me, atthe beginning it was just
(21:48):
another investigative job.
But within a few weeks ofstarting the job I got one of
many cases on my desk, and thisparticular case was a financial
case and it was a case of agrandmother who had had a decent
amount of money in her life andshe lived in a nice part of San
Diego and her children andgrandchildren had put her in a
independent living facility.
(22:10):
So she basically has her ownlittle cute apartment, but she
goes down to the cafeteria forfood and you know this kind of
stuff Activities are always done.
But she needed a caregiver tocome into this little apartment
to help her with bathing andcleaning and so forth, and so
the family contacted awell-established home care
(22:31):
agency and they hired acaretaker through them that
would come in and do help aroundthe house and with cleaning.
The caretaker arrived and,unbeknownst to anybody, within
48 hours she had found a stackof checkbooks that were in the
house and she had started takingchecks out of the back and
forging them Now.
It didn't take long and thefamily soon realized because
(22:55):
they were overseeing grandma'smoney and didn't realize a
checkbook had been left in theapartment.
So somebody caught it prettysoon.
There was not a lot of moneymissing when the call came in.
So the call comes in, thepolice take a report, it gets to
my desk, I'm looking it overand I do what any investigator
who is this caretaker hired bythis well-established, good
(23:16):
agency?
And I do my work and I startlooking up her background.
Kaboom, the girl's name anddate of birth that the care
agency had on her comes back toa 14-page rap sheet.
I thought some care agenciesdid background checks.
Yeah, did they not do abackground?
Speaker 2 (23:35):
check yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:35):
So I called them up and I said to the care agency
did you do a background check?
Yes, okay, did she pass?
Well, to be honest with you,detective, we hired her before
we got the results back, because, you got to understand,
caretaking is such an evolvingdoor.
It's hard to get someone tostay in these positions.
We just go through people andwe didn't want another agency to
(24:02):
grab her.
So we went with our gut and wegot her in there and we got her
working and we are still waiting.
She just started a few weeksago and we're still waiting it
to come back.
Is there a problem?
I go well, yeah, it's not goingto pass, it's going to come
back failed.
Who did you send the money offto to do a background check?
The going to come back.
Failed.
Who did you send the money offto to do a background check?
The department of justice.
They told me the Californiadepartment of justice, and
that's who we went through and Isaid, okay, well, it's going to
come back and get ready.
(24:22):
You're probably going to getsued because this family is
going to realize that you didn'tdo a background check when you
always claim you do.
So a week later they call me upand they go we just got the
background check and she passedwhat?
Wow?
I'm looking at a 14, and everysingle thing on her rap sheet
had to do with financial theft.
She had done shoplifting, shehad done burglary, she had done
(24:45):
petty theft, you name it.
She'd done forgeries.
Her entire world was all aboutbeing a thief, and yet she
passes the background.
I said what do you guys get foryour background?
I don't know, I'm just the HRperson, I just send it off on
this fax machine.
So I called the Department ofJustice.
I'm like what's going on here?
How did this girl pass thebackground?
And I get a hold of the rightpeople at Department of Justice
(25:08):
and I eventually find out thatthe Department of Justice offers
a background check to careagencies and it's only a 15 at
the time, and this was 20 yearsago.
I'm sure it's only 20 bucks nowthough, but at the time it was
like 10 bucks and they send inthe person's info and the DOJ
does its background check andsends it.
And I go well then, how didthis girl pass?
And they said they took a lookat everything and they said oh,
(25:28):
we see how she passed.
You see, in California, but youknow, I'm starting to find it
Todd in other places as well.
Okay, at the time in Californiathe DOJ placed background checks
for elderly children in thesame category as background
checks for children caregiving,child care agencies.
(25:52):
If you want to work at apreschool, if you want to be a
coach of a baseball team, thevolunteer type stuff, background
checks.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
Okay, so that's why it got put in there.
Yeah, they didn't know at thetime where to really shove it.
So we do the same backgroundchecks we do for people that
work with children, because wefigured that would be important.
This is the problem thebackground check for children
has everything to do withphysical assault and sexual
abuse and nothing to do withfinancial, because children
(26:24):
don't have money.
So the only thing checked onthis woman was drug use and
assaultive behavior.
Physical abuse and death is noteven on these people, and the
number one crime against theelderly is financial.
And then it gets better.
And then I started lookingfurther.
I decided at this point thishas got to stop.
(26:45):
And I started a whole committee.
We're going to get this to stop.
We're going to get this to stop.
We're going to get the lawchanged.
And in our research for the nextyear, I found that the
California prison system offersand I believe it might still be
doing it the California prisonsystem offers a vocational
course to inmates.
You know all those rehab thingsyou can do.
So when you get out and youhave a job, yep, well, guess
(27:05):
what?
They offer a course on caringfor the elderly so you can get
out as a convicted felon and bein a senior's home that
afternoon, good, great.
And when you look at theDepartment of Corrections
curriculum for courses given toinmates, the only one that has
to do with caring for people iselder.
(27:25):
There's nothing in there whereyou could be a caregiver for
children.
It's ridiculous.
It's absolutely ridiculous, andI found that because I had seen
I had the drug addict gettingout of prison and being in a
home that afternoon by GoldenCare Agency.
That's going to go intograndma's, so there's nobody
watching.
You have to do due diligence towatch your family.
(27:47):
We are much more diligent as acountry to make sure who's
taking care of our children.
We would never allow aconvicted felon to take care of
our children.
We don't seem to care when itcomes to our seniors and they
have just as much to lose as achild does if not financial.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
I always say that there's a lot of fundraisers for
neglected puppies and children,but there's not much for
seniors.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
That's another thing I say.
We have shelters for domesticviolence and we have shelters
for families that are homeless,and we have shelters.
We have places for veterans.
We have nothing for seniors togo to in an emergency.
We have nothing for seniors togo to in an emergency.
Time and time again I get callsall over this country from
officers saying Leslie, I have asenior, I found them in filth
in their house.
(28:33):
They cannot stay here.
So we take them to the hospitalbecause they got to be looked
at first.
Right, yeah, well, thehospital's ready to spit them
out in 24 hours.
Where do I take them?
They can't go back to theirhouse because they need care.
They don't have anyone becausethey're the only one left in
their family.
There's nobody caring for them.
The house is deplorable.
Where do we put them?
What do we do?
I have begged doctors to keepthem in the hospital.
(28:55):
We've had it where the hospitalcalls and says we're now
getting a cab, we're pushingthem out the door.
Where do you put them?
We have runaway shelters forjuveniles.
We have nothing for seniors.
We need this country to payattention that we're living
longer and we need more to help,and we're all going to be there
one day.
(29:15):
So if somebody needs to take anofficer needs to take a senior
out of an environment that isdangerous.
We have nowhere to put the notemporary where there's
caregivers and people to overseewhat their needs are until our
social workers can get thempermanent homes, which takes
just a period of paperwork,because a lot of times they
(29:36):
qualify for, you know, a seniorhousing, but it's the paperwork
that's going to take a month.
So we need a temporary shelterand that's what we need to start
doing and I've never seenanybody do it yet.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
You're right, I hadn't thought about that.
But yeah, they go to thehospital and then they have to
go somewhere because thedoctor's like, okay, yeah, we
fixed them up, we got themhydrated.
Speaker 3 (29:59):
They're not that bad.
Off, boom off they go.
And yeah, take them and putthem right into a skilled
facility, but there's paperwork,you, you cannot.
The facility will not acceptthem.
So we've got this big red tapeproblem.
And so, even if it's anemergency, they won't accept us.
So you have to have a temporaryin-between and that's the
fundraising that I'd like to seestart happening to help our
(30:22):
seniors, like we do for all thefundraising.
I mean we need all those othershelters.
We also need them for ourseniors.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
You're right, very good point, all right.
So what are?
Speaker 3 (30:34):
some trends that you're seeing that we can
address.
Since I've been involved inthis now for 25 years, I've
probably investigated well over700 elder abuse cases, and the
one thing I used to say when I'dgo out and do my speaking
engagements is I would say, atleast we don't have to worry
about the computers, right?
Speaker 1 (30:53):
Yes, but now we have to worry about the computers.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
So that's the trend I'm seeing now.
There's so much loneliness ingetting older and so people
reach out and they startlearning and even if they just
have the basics, it really takesnothing.
So what I'm starting to see isa lot more sweetheart scams
being perpetrated over theInternet A lot more.
You know when COVID happened,oh Lord, the loneliness, granny
(31:23):
takeovers where someone meets orgets to know a senior who's
living alone in a house andtalks their way in and basically
becomes a roommate and thentakes over the house and starts
selling drugs out of it orwhatever might be happening.
We've had a couple of cases.
You know quite a few cases ofthat.
But the computer one is anissue and I often tell people.
Young people will say, well,I'm going to tell my senior
(31:45):
parent, I'm going to show themhow to get on the internet so
they can get in these chat roomsand they can visit and get to
know other seniors.
That is not a good idea Ifsomeone of a senior level is not
interested in learning acomputer because they don't do
that modern stuff.
Don't push it, don't push it.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
That's a good idea, yeah.
Well and you know, I grew up I'm59, I'll be 60 this year and so
I grew up in an age where thephone was hanging on the wall or
sitting beside the couch and ifsomeone called, they're meaning
to call you, it's someone youknow, and so you pick up the
phone because that's just whatyou do, and these older people
(32:25):
still do that.
If someone calls, they're like,well, I have to answer, no, you
don't.
You don't have to answerbecause tenses are, it's a
scammer.
And if you know and I thinkthat's one of my biggest things
is, yeah, stay off the computerif you don't know what you're
doing.
And, god bless my mother, shewas.
She died in 2016.
(32:45):
And for the last few years ofher life, I was constantly going
over to her house because shewould click on an email link and
it would just cause all kindsof problems.
I'm like, mother, don't clickon these links.
And it was just, yeah, thecomputer was a huge frustration
(33:06):
and she never fell for those,but I can see how easily.
But I think the biggest thingand I had a friend of mine
called the other day and shesaid her sister just sent some
scammer $8,000 because theycalled and said hey, that
computer that you ordered, weneed payment up front before we
send it.
She said, well, I didn't ordera computer.
Oh, yes, you did it up frontbefore we sent it.
(33:27):
She said, well, I didn't ordera computer, oh, yes, you did.
She's like, no, I didn't.
And she argued with him andsaid yes, I have the order right
here.
If you don't pay for this, thepolice are going to come to your
house.
Yes, oh my God, that is soridiculous, you know exactly
what to say.
Speaker 3 (33:40):
She got scared.
You know exactly what to say.
We're talking about a group ofpeople that believe that
everyone's honest and they'revery patriotic and they're very
polite and they don't want andthey believe.
I mean, why would someone lie?
I mean why you know.
So that's the hardest part isis the gullibility you know and
you appreciate that, that gentlekindness.
(34:01):
But at the same time you've gotto teach them to be wise and to
be cautious.
And they've had that same phonefor 45 years, so you know
they're going to answer it,they're going to talk to
whoever's on the other line.
They're lonely, so theychit-chat for a while.
(34:21):
And yeah, we got the phone scams.
Go down and buy me some giftcards, and that's why every time
you go into a bank or a lot ofthe and I do a ton of bank
training you know when theseniors come in and they need to
make large withdrawals, they'llask them questions to make sure
.
But then the scammers know whatto tell the senior to answer.
(34:41):
So we see all sorts of scamslike that going on the
sweetheart scams over the phone.
We have the bank scams, whereI'm the bank examiner and you're
going to help us catch a badteller who's stealing from.
And we noticed they were lookingat your account.
So we're going to need you togo in and make a withdrawal and
we want you to come in and do itand then walk out to the
(35:03):
outside and we'll take the moneyand put it back for you.
I mean, it sounds bizarre,right?
Oh yeah, I haven't heard ofthat one.
Oh yeah, come down.
Oh yeah, that's one.
We're calling from the bank.
We're the authority at the bankor we're the bank examiner, and
I need you to go get some moneyout of your account because we
have a teller who's stealing andwe know that they've been
looking at your account.
(35:23):
So we want you to go in thereand take, you know, $5,000 out.
We're going to have you come inand the teller you go up to and
the senior will fall for it andthey'll go up to the teller and
they'll withdraw the money andthey'll go out to outside and
there'll be a person waiting andthey'll go.
Ok, you can give it back to meand I'll go put it back and we
appreciate you helping in theinvestigation.
Or we have the grandma I'm injail scam and I need money right
(35:45):
now and I'm going to havesomebody come pick it up.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
With.
Ai now they can duplicatevoices so well, it sounds just
like them, and that's kind ofsad about how disconnected
families are.
That a grandparent wouldn'tknow that their granddaughter's
not in Mexico, you know?
She calls us like hey, grandma,I'm in Mexico and I just got
(36:10):
arrested.
Oh for you not to know thatit's just kind of sad.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
Double-check these things right and they often
don't.
So those are the really hardones.
We can't get the money back.
And to lose that kind of moneyI mean when seniors lose chunks
of their investments or chunksof their money it's devastating.
I mean it's devastating toanybody, but it can be even more
devastating to a senior becausethey can't make that money back
(36:39):
, they can't go back to work.
They feel terribly takenadvantage of.
They don't even want to tellpeople in their family it's
happened yeah so a lot of timeswe'll have such a great loss of
money because it's going on fora period of time and they're
just not going to tell anyone.
Because if they tell someonethat they got scammed, then
they're going to think theycan't take care of themselves.
And that's the scariest thingof all is a senior losing their
(37:02):
independence and being takenaway from their home, because
that's the number one thingseniors do not want is to lose
their independence and be takenaway from their home.
So that's also the number onething that is threatened to a
senior if they don't cooperate.
In other words, what I'mpointing out is your number one
and number two suspects in thesecases statistically proven are
(37:22):
caretakers and family members.
It's actually family membersfirst, then comes caretakers,
and often the family member isthe caretaker, but family
members are by far the numberone suspects in these cases.
And what are families?
How do they pick?
How do you pick the rightperson to look out for you?
I'll tell you something.
This is the story I always shareeveryone, because I see this
happen time and time and timeagain.
(37:44):
You'll have a regular familyand, let's say, this couple has
four children.
Three of the kids grow up anddo fine.
They're normal, they have anormal life.
They, you know, go on, they getmarried, they have careers,
they have families andeverything is wonderful.
But there's that one kid, thatone in that family of four that
never got their act together.
They screwed up in school, hada little bit of a drug problem
(38:05):
in high school, couldn't keep ajob.
Mommy and daddy felt sorry forhim, bailed him out constantly,
has babies.
They're not paying for livesoff of mom and dad in the
basement.
Let's go on and on.
We're all recognizing we mightbe recognizing our own relative
right, those who are listeningnow?
Okay, so guess who mom and dadexpects to be their taker.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
The one that's there, the one who's?
Speaker 3 (38:28):
already moving off of mom and dad, the one who's
already living at home, andguess who always agrees to it?
All the other children who aretoo busy to deal with mom and
dad.
So yeah, let's let Junior do it.
He's a screw-up anyway.
And that way you know what.
We can even sign him up forIHSS in-home support services
(38:48):
and then that way the governmentwill pay them.
If mom and dad makes low enoughincome, then they can actually
get a few shekels from thegovernment to be the caretaker
to mom and dad, and all we haveto do is have mom and dad sign
off on their timesheet.
Guess who forges the timesheetand doesn't ever do any work for
mom and dad.
Guess who yells at mom and dadto make sure they forge that.
(39:13):
Who guess who keeps takingmoney on top of the other money?
Guess who cannot take care ofmom and dad if they can't take
care of themselves?
He's got children he doesn'ttake care of.
He's got a job he can't handle.
He can't get his bed made inthe morning.
How is he gonna take care ofmom and dad or she?
But yet that person the wholefamily agrees needs to go in the
house to take care of mom anddad.
Don't do it.
The person who needs to takecare of mom and dad is probably
the busiest person in the family, but definitely don't allow the
(39:37):
problem child to be the one,because that will then be a
absolute nightmare that you'recontributing to.
When the time comes, I wish Iwas to the point where all the
money's gone and all of a suddeneverybody looks and goes.
What, hey, we put you in chargeto pay the bills.
The house is going into a rearengine.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
I wish my listeners could see this.
I'm doing this visually and sheis riled up, you see me getting
all this.
She is riled up, that's good.
Speaker 3 (40:03):
I'm very passionate.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
I appreciate the passion.
Speaker 3 (40:05):
I'm all over the room like that.
So I have some great classes Iteach, if anybody's ever
interested, and I have taperecordings and everything of
interviews.
I've got some undue influencestuff that just blows your mind.
And another thing, and let'spoint out, and I'm sure your
listeners are aware of this,elder abuse doesn't happen just
in the lower income areas.
(40:26):
Elder abuse can be rich on rich.
I have a case I'm working onright now where the daughter is
very successful and very wealthy, but so was mom in her day, and
the daughter is doing the bestshe can to get all the
inheritance to the tune ofunduly influencing mom right
over the phone.
So what does a goodinvestigator do?
I record those phone calls.
(40:46):
So there's so many ways andthat's what you do as an
investigator.
You start looking at the lawwithin the state you're working
in and how you can work thesecases, and there's rarely a
situation you can't put togethera decent case if you have
cooperation.
That's key.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
So what can you do for us as attorneys?
Speaker 3 (41:07):
Well, what can I do?
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
Well, if we see elder abuse, if we see something
going on and if we say we can'tget the police involved, they
just won't get involved.
Can we call you and get you tolook at some things for us?
Speaker 3 (41:24):
Absolutely.
I have a websiteelderabuseexpertcom.
I can be reached on that andthen I'll be glad to hand to you
if you want to later I'll giveyou all my personal information
and that you can get it out toeveryone.
So, yeah, I do a ton oftraining and do a ton of
speaking and I'm not expensivebecause I love to travel.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (41:43):
Okay, paige is a happy girl, but also, you know,
I want people just to care.
Yeah, you know we can get sobusy into making money in our
careers and moving along, movingalong, but remember to care.
Seniors are not easy to workwith.
Okay, this is not an easy areato work in.
Yeah, not an easy area to workin.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:05):
Seniors can be grouchy, stubborn, set in their
ways, absolute pain in the buttand full on liars if they want
to be Sure, because they're justhuman, like everybody else, and
they're nervous.
The minute they're in youroffice they're nervous.
The minute I walk in their homeor they come to my office,
they're nervous.
So make sure you spend sometime learning.
(42:26):
Get your training in there andjust the training of the law
that you all know.
Learn the social side.
Learn from trainers who cancome in and show your staff how
the elder brain works, becauseseniors look at things different
.
They come from a different timethan we do.
They have differentexpectations.
They have even male-femaledifferences.
(42:47):
You know you look at yourgrandparents and how their
dynamics were as a couple andhow they ran their home, and now
one of them's dead and say it'sdad, grandpa, who died and
grandma never handled thecheckbook because he was the man
in the house.
Okay, we can get mad at that,all we want, but we just need to
deal with it.
And right now, let's take overthat checkbook and make sure
grandma's okay.
(43:07):
So I guess my thing is to justtruly get it.
Get it in its entirety and youwill find you are a better
attorney for your client becauseyou're going to understand all
their needs.
You'll pick up on little thingsthat maybe aren't even in your
wheelhouse but you might be ableto share with someone they
might need that.
But yeah, you know, that'sreally.
(43:28):
What I want to say is just makesure your training is extremely
thorough and don't give up onyour law enforcement.
I guess, call me and I could putthe word out to local law
enforcement.
Or, you know, when you'rehaving your conversation with an
officer who's trying to tellyou it's civil, pull out the law
book.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
The criminal law book , the guy who's on your offices.
Speaker 3 (43:47):
Yeah, that's true, we say in my part of the world,
let's look at the law book.
Oh, you say this is Sybil.
Okay, here, every single statehas an elder abuse statute.
Sure, every single one.
And you'll be amazed at howpowerful they are if you don't
understand them.
And when you look at it, youshow that law book to that
officer who's standing in youroffice and you're trying to make
(44:08):
a case.
Look at it.
Says through deception, coercion, undue influence and money was
taken.
Because they think undueinfluence is, she gave
permission.
Well, they were talked into it,but she still gave permission.
No, no, no, no.
There's a thing called undueinfluence.
It's like brainwashing.
Can you talk a child into beinga victim of child abuse?
(44:29):
Yeah, how do our child abuserslure their children in?
Seniors get lured in also for adifferent reason Financial gain
, almost always.
So that's how I explain to theofficer.
So if there's a way you canstill be passionate about it and
say you've, and then don't beashamed, but I'm a fighter is to
(44:50):
ask for their supervisor.
You're trying to make an elderabuse report.
You know you're looking at goodevidence, you know you have a
crime and you have an officergoing.
No, I'm sorry, it's civil, letme talk to your supervisor.
You have a right as a citizenthat I want to talk to your
supervisor and make thatsupervisor then come into your
office.
Tell me why, because I'mlooking at it in the law book.
Tell me why you can't take areport on this.
(45:11):
But I'll tell you what theproblem is.
Once they do get you, get themtalked into taking that report,
who's he going to give it to?
The detective hasn't beentrained either.
If he hasn't trained hisofficer.
So, my biggest dilemma now is,as I'm getting close to
retirement, I'm trying to get asmuch training in as I can.
To get these agencies torealize you need a dedicated
team.
You need to at least dedicatesome of your hours of your
(45:33):
academy towards training elderabuse.
And I am now starting to getinvited into these academies so
that people understand.
But just don't give up.
Just call the next officer, orat least call APS, every single
time you see something thatcould be something.
And even if you're not sureit's not your job, to be sure
(45:53):
it's the social worker's job Allyou need is suspicion.
That's a good point and youhave every right to make that
call, and wouldn't you sleepbetter at night to know you had
someone checking, then to findout six months later you read it
(46:14):
in the newspaper that we have adead senior.
Oh, I knew that person.
Speaker 2 (46:15):
Oh my god I knew that was gonna happen.
I know they got that dirtbagkid in their house, yeah, with a
drug problem.
You know very good points.
Okay, is there anything elsewe've not talked about that you
want to let our listeners know?
Give?
Speaker 3 (46:22):
me a call anytime yes , and you've got my email.
Elderviewsexpertcom're right,it's fairly new.
Speaker 2 (46:29):
Okay, okay, leslie, thank you very much.
I appreciate your time todayand to all my listeners.
Thank you for listening and ifyou need Leslie's help, her
contact information will be inthe show notes.
And, as always, thank you somuch for listening and we will
see you next time.
And, as always, thank you somuch for listening and we will
see you next time.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
Thank you for joining this episode of the Elder Law
Coach podcast.
For those eager to take theirelder law practice to new
heights and are interested inTodd's acclaimed coaching
program, visitwwwtheelderlawcoachcom.
With Todd Whatley by your side,the journey to becoming an
elder law authority has neverbeen more achievable.
(47:07):
Until next time, keep learning,keep growing and stay
passionate about elder law.
Thank you.
Specialized experience, Whetheryou're an established attorney
looking to refine your expertiseor an emerging lawyer seeking a
successful foray into elder law, this is your masterclass.
Now let's get started with theluminary in the field.
Here's Todd Whatley.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
That's right.
This is the Elder Law Coachpodcast.
My name is Todd Whatley and, asalways, I'm extremely thankful
that you are here with us, andtoday we have a fantastic guest.
It's not just me talking today,I have a guest that, if you've
done elder law for probably morethan about two days, you have
(00:58):
probably seen some elder abuse,and today's expert is Leslie
Albrecht, and she is a elderabuse expert.
So, leslie, thanks for beingwith us today.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Thank you, Todd.
I'm very excited to be here.
It's always good to get theword out when we can, Leslie.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
I think your history is very interesting, so tell us
how you got into this.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
My career in law enforcement started in 1989 when
I joined the San Diego PoliceDepartment and like all law
enforcement agencies, you startat the very bottom and you just
sort of work your way throughwhatever section of law
enforcement you want to get into.
And in 2000, I decided to putin for investigation.
I received that promotion and Iwas selected as one of six
(01:45):
investigators to start the SanDiego Elder Abuse Unit.
So the San Diego PoliceDepartment started the very
first dedicated investigativeteam of detect.
To this day, elder abuse isinvestigated by law enforcement
(02:08):
but it's often tucked intoinvestigations of domestic
violence, investigations ofchild abuse.
Investigators that have thosecases tend to also get the elder
abuse cases.
Well, you can imagine whathappens you get pushed to the
bottom of the back because thereis so much domestic violence
and so much child abuse thatthese cases often get overlooked
(02:28):
.
So San Diego saw that and saidwe need to start dedicating some
expertise into this.
And so I was one of sixinvestigators that started that
unit and I ended up stayingthere.
I really took to it and enjoyedit and I ended up staying there
for about almost 10 years andreally honed in on my craft and
I've been doing it ever since.
Now my law enforcement career.
(02:48):
After 10 years in that unit, Iwent into other units, but I
have always maintained, you know, one foot in this field at all
times.
And once I retired in 2014, Idecided to start up my own
practice.
I got my PI license and I'malso doing expert witness now.
(03:09):
I've traveled the country, havetaught in just about every
state there is.
I have taught at academies.
I've taught sworn, non-sworn, Imean, you name it social
workers, attorneys.
I've been a keynote speaker andI've also testified in multiple
elder abuse cases.
So, yeah, really, really haveenjoyed it and also found that
(03:31):
there's not much expertise in itin this country.
So I've had a lot of work.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Sure.
So what do you see as beingmost challenging in this line of
work?
Speaker 3 (03:43):
I can tell you right off the bat, the number one
challenging is getting lawenforcement agencies to even
recognize this as a crime.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Thank you, Every time I have called and I have clear
evidence and they're like thisis a civil matter.
This is a civil matter and I'mlike so how do you address that?
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Well, you know, the first thing I say is well, if
it's a civil matter, let's takea look at your law book and see
if we can find it.
And we immediately find it,don't we?
So theft is theft, physicalassault is physical assault, and
depending on the circumstancesis what type of crime you have.
And so when I point this out toour young officers in the
(04:24):
academies, or even our seasonedofficers, who arrive on a scene
and don't realize what they'relooking at, then the big light
bulb comes on.
Then the next challenge isgetting the superiors to
acknowledge it, getting thatagency to actually start getting
some training in there, becauseif the officer responding to
(04:45):
the case doesn't understand thatit's even a criminal matter,
how's he going to know how toinvestigate it?
So that is the number one issue,and I thought way back many,
many years ago that we wouldslowly get that word out.
And we have gotten the word out.
But the problem is acceptance.
Acceptance and taking it in asunderstanding this is not a
family problem or there is athing as coercion and undue
(05:08):
influence, and that people canbe talked right out of their
life savings.
So, yeah, I would say that'sthe biggest frustration.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Okay, so you kind of delved into it.
So how would you define elderabuse?
Speaker 3 (05:21):
Elder abuse is a crime perpetrated against a
senior.
Depending on the state, itcould start at age 60 or 65.
You can be a senior in manystates at 55.
To be an actual elder, whereyou're protected within the law,
it's usually 60 or 65.
The law has recognized that ourseniors in our country are as
(05:49):
vulnerable as children, and sowe have to protect them.
The one difference is they havemoney and our children don't.
So the number one crimeperpetrated against elderly and
when you say elder abuse, peoplego gross.
That's somebody lying in theirfilth and those home care
agencies and the facilities.
And yes, that does happen.
(06:11):
That is true, but the actualnumber one crime perpetrated
against the elderly is fiduciary.
It's financial and it is in themulti-billion dollar point at
this, and so you have many types, so the top one is fiduciary.
I see financial issues involvedin almost every type of elder
abuse.
It is very rare to find anelder abuse case where money is
(06:34):
not at some point involved in it.
I would absolutely agree withthat, you've got to go back the
layers and find it.
There's always a motive andit's almost always money.
And then you have physicalabuse and you have neglect.
And then there's alsoself-neglect.
But that's not a crime.
So the investigator needs tounderstand is this a social
issue or is this a crime?
So it is a kind of crime thatyou've got to understand these
(06:58):
layers and all that goes into it.
So you have physical, you haveneglect, criminal level neglect
that could be shredded by acaretaker, and then you have
physical.
you have neglect, criminal levelneglect that could be shredded
by a caretaker.
And then you have fiscal,financial neglect.
I often see people say verbalabuse.
You know verbal abuse happensin elder abuse cases but you
cannot charge just on verbalabuse.
(07:20):
Social workers call me and gooh, they're just the son or the
daughter is just so horrible tothis person and they call them
names and they ridicule them.
Now we want to dive into it,see if maybe more is going on.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Probably is yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Yeah, but just in itself being an idiot, a jerk or
whatever you want to callsomebody we cannot do a case or
charge them.
And I often say to groups whenI teach we'd be putting half of
America in custody if it's beingjust a jerk, because you know
you can't do that.
So that's what you see in thetypes of cases.
I want to make sure I've listedthem all.
We've got physical assault,we've got theft, we've got
(07:57):
neglect.
I think that's self-neglect.
Did I forget one?
Speaker 2 (08:01):
I don't think so I think that's all of them.
Yeah, that's a pretty good list.
So what are some signs?
I mean as attorneys, since thispodcast is going out toward
attorneys what are things thatwe need?
Speaker 3 (08:14):
to be looking for.
I'll tell you, the first thingand I'm sure your guests will
recognize this is when you havesomeone bring in a senior to
start maybe working on an estateplan or suddenly have an estate
plan change.
You want to pay close attentionto that.
We expect our seniors to startgetting their affairs in order
and that's absolutely fine.
But pay attention to who'swalking in your office.
(08:36):
Do you know that senior?
Sometimes you know your clientsand you've known them for many,
many years and you know thefamily and you know the dynamics
.
You've worked with them beforeon maybe some other legal issues
they've needed.
Well then, obviously, pay closeattention to that.
Attorneys in most states are notmandated reporters of elder
abuse because you have thatprivacy privilege.
(08:56):
However, I would hope ethicallythat attorneys would always try
and do the best to theirability to protect.
So if you see someone come in,something's not right, the
senior's looking extra nervous,the senior seems hesitant, the
senior is mentally not sharp.
You know you've got to do yourdue diligence and you want to do
(09:19):
a separation and you neverspeak to your client in front of
the other persons that mighthave arrived with them initially
.
Ok, so now I know if a clientwants a person in a room, we've
got to let them do that.
But if there's a possible wayyou can do a separation where
you can spend a reasonableamount of time just you and that
(09:40):
senior talking to them, askingsome basic questions, engage in
a conversation and see if itseems right and if your gut's
telling you something's notright, and even if you can't
pinpoint it, still make thatcall.
I always tell everyone reportsuspicion.
You cannot be held liable.
You know if a report ofpotential elder abuse is made in
(10:03):
good faith you cannot legallybe liable for that.
You're also kept anonymous andI worked in elder abuse issues
in multiple states.
I don't see any social servicesthat ever give that information
away.
That is highly maintained.
It would take a court orderfrom a judge to give away who
the reporting party is.
I've never seen it relevant ina case.
Anyway, we could get right intowhat you find when you got the
(10:26):
report.
So spend some time and talk tothem.
And what did they want?
Talk to them about their family.
Talk to them and know theanswers ahead of time, because
seniors who are starting to havecognitive issues can very
easily do what's called maskingor they can very well make it
look like they're answering thequestions normally.
(10:48):
Now you can say tell me aboutyour children.
Well, I had three kids, but noahead of time.
Do they?
Or do they have five?
right and what are their namesand what are their ages and what
do you want to see?
Well, you know it's really mydesire to have everything even.
But my kids are really upsetand they might very well bring
you into the family dynamics.
Don't get yourself wrapped upin some legal problem if you can
(11:11):
help it.
So if you start seeing thoselegal dynamics, it's always
easier to back off.
You start hearing about thefamily you know well.
They brought me in here.
They really want this and youknow those things.
You've heard them in your world.
Back off of it.
Make another appointment.
Find a reason to delay them ifyou're not comfortable
confronting, but make that 1-800phone call to your local elder
(11:33):
abuse hotline and at least getit looked into.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Yeah.
So I come across this a lotbecause I do a lot of Medicaid
and I think a lot of ourattorneys do Medicaid and
there's a five year.
Look back on gifts and peoplesometimes don't consider making
a child's car payment as a gift.
Well, it is, or, you know,paying off things or giving
(11:56):
college money or whatever.
I've got a guy just this weekand he's been making his
daughter's his 47 yearolddaughter's car payment for the
last two or three years, youknow, and it's just like, yeah,
he spent his money the way hewants, if he's cognitively sound
to do it.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
And that's what's key is we want to make sure he is
making the.
But then again, see and that'swhy you've got to understand the
layers I've had it where, inyour case, like, let's say that
man has always done that, he'salways done that for 20 years
and now he's starting to showsome cognitive issues.
And somebody in the familymight go, uh-oh, he's got
(12:34):
cognitive issues.
He can't be doing that, but theinvestigation's going to show
that that has been his norm for20 years.
We don't have a crime.
Now what we want to do is gethim into the social side, get
him set up, because he clearlyis starting to fail cognitively.
But as far as what he's beendoing has been a habit, and so
you look at that.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Yeah, let's delve into that just a little bit,
because my, you know, one of myquestions is and I always tell
my coaching clients, we need tohonor our clients' dignity and
you know, autonomy, okay, buteven though this person has no
dementia, you know where do wedraw the line between you know
(13:18):
pressure from a daughter to say,you know, I've got to get to
work and I can't get to work ifI don't have this car and I need
you to make this payment, andthem feeling tremendous pressure
from someone but yeah, they'recompetent, and the difference
between doing it voluntarily ordoing it under undue influence.
(13:39):
I'm sure that's a very fineline.
It sure can be.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
Again, that takes getting into their life, getting
into their world, which ofcourse you can't do.
You have a business to run andthat's where my world comes in.
So and that's where I try totalk to these officers Don't
just walk up to the door, knockon it, spend 30 seconds saying
hello and saying everythinglooks great here and walk away,
get in and figure out what'sgoing on.
(14:06):
So that fine line, a lot of itis just your gut feeling that
something doesn't seem right.
Maybe they're just a little off, and in order to see the
difference, you know, again,that just takes looking at the
family dynamics.
Like one of the things I'll doas an investigator is, of course
, I sit down with my senior andthey absolutely have to be alone
(14:29):
and I want them to feelcomfortable in their environment
and I want them to feel likethey can open up to me.
So I'll spend quite a bit oftime just visiting with them,
just talking, and then, oncethey start to feel a little
comfortable with me, then Istart to ask them questions
about the family dynamics and itmight come out just in a
conversation about how I don't,you know, I don't, I want to
(14:53):
help my daughter.
Maybe they'll say but I'm on afixed income and I just can't
afford it.
But I tell you she gets soangry and I, and that just
assists.
You know, I just get, I don'twant her to get nervous.
Well, are you scared of her?
They might say, no, I'm notscared, but I don't like it when
they get angry.
So you have to take in all thatas an investigator, taking all
(15:13):
that as an investigator.
I do a ton of description in myinvestigation, in other words,
when I'm writing my reports, Italk about my entire environment
, what those homes looking like,who's living in what rooms,
who's driving what cars.
Because we'll have someone comeinto a senior's life and take
over their home and take overthe master bedroom and take over
(15:34):
the nice car in the drivewaymaster bedroom and take over the
nice car in the driveway.
So let's see if everythingagain is normal behavior for the
family, if this is suddenchange behavior.
Can the senior afford it, youknow?
And then at some point I'mgoing to actually talk to the
person who might be takingadvantage of the parent and find
out what they have to say.
You will hear them and I'm sureyou have.
(15:55):
Well, I'm the only kid in thefamily that really pays
attention to mom and dad and I'mthe only one who cares for them
and my brother and sister arejust too busy and they just
don't have the time and I'mthere day in and day out, so I
deserve it.
Well, that's really not how itworks.
So I've often had to tellpeople you have to wait till you
inherit to take yourinheritance.
(16:16):
They're actually still alive.
So, again, we look at thedynamics of it all I look at.
My whole thing is to getcooperation from my senior and
if I start getting cooperationthen I can, you know, I can get
more truth out of them if it'sactually working right or
they're going to cover up andthey're going to be scared and
they're going to be nervous.
(16:37):
And that's another thing wetrain investigators to do is
look at the person's bodyreaction, look at their face.
Look at their eyes dartingaround and nervous that that
caretaker is going to walk inthe room and hear what we're
talking about.
Pay attention, the person who'scaring for the senior.
If that's our perpetrator.
Pay attention, the person who'scaring for the senior, if that's
(16:57):
our perpetrator, are theyhovering, are they answering for
the senior?
And these are all red flagsthat I start going oh, I'm not
going away.
Or sometimes after two hoursI'm absolutely satisfied,
Everything's fine and I have aticked off sibling.
That's just, that's jealous.
And the senior, you know,because this is the thing, you
can spend your money on anybodyyou want to, and you can spend
(17:19):
your money in this country anyway you want to.
You are free to do so.
So what we have to figure outis are you cognitively making a
good decision?
Are you coerced or do you justnot know what you're doing?
I have people that I call thelocal atm a senior living alone
in a house that has quite a bitof money and the local dirtbags
(17:39):
in the neighborhood figure itout and start showing up at the
front door to be their new bestfriend and they become the local
ATM.
So we have to go in and figureout.
So sometimes it's a matter ofgetting their permission and
I'll have them fill out a formto where I can take a look at
their finances.
Sometimes they'll say I haven'tseen my finances.
I don't know how much money Igave all that over to, you know,
(18:01):
my son or my daughter or mycousin or whomever is taking
care of them, and so I don'tknow how much money.
Well, why don't we go take alook together?
And sometimes I find nothingand I go away, and other times I
find something.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Tremendous, yeah.
So yeah, it's interesting how Itypically do it.
If the kid comes in with theparent, I will bring them both
in initially and just have veryopening conversations, nothing
in depth, and then if I start tosense something, I will ask the
kid to leave Because you know,like you said, the older person
(18:35):
is very nervous.
They're not used to lawyers andI'll bring them in so that they
can say that I'm generally anice guy and this is not going
to be high pressure.
But then I asked the kid toleave and they're like oh, mom
can't answer questions withoutme.
I'm like, yes, she can.
Well, if she truly can't, thenwe need to do a guardianship,
but if if she can answerquestions, you need to leave
(18:57):
that resistance.
If there is resistance, that'sa huge red flag that okay, I
know what we're dealing with now, and so you absolutely, um,
yeah, eventually they well, Imean, I've had some not leave.
I'm like, if you don't leavethe room, I will not represent
your mom right.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
You know, and you can easily explain it to them, that
you can even tell them it's arequirement that I talk to them
individually just to make sureeverybody's on the same page,
and they just shouldn't have aproblem with that.
You know now.
The second thing I see a lot ofpeople do is they love to wave
that power of attorney in frontof you as if it gives them free
reign to do anything in aperson's life and when and I've
(19:36):
had officers fall for that Well,they had power of attorney,
they had power of attorney andso and you could see a young
officer, right, they don't go tothese calls every day and they
get very little training, if any, in the police academy and they
will show up at a house or at abank or wherever they're
getting called and they see thispaperwork being thrown out.
I'm the power of attorney andeverybody's arguing but what
(20:01):
about guardianship?
And they hear all these wordsin these terms that they don't
get.
So they just back up.
I don't know.
Power of attorney, legal mumble, jumble, I don't know.
I'm just going to back off.
I think this is just an issue.
We'll have officers not doanything, but at least they'll
make a call to adult protectiveservices.
So at least they'll make a callto Adult Protective Services,
so at least we'll get them inthe system and we'll have a
social worker digging a littlefurther.
So I at least try to get theofficers to understand that
(20:22):
anytime they walk into asenior's house, if anything's
being accused of by anyone,whether you believe it or not at
least when you leave you haveto make a report that you were
there and what the issue was, sothat we can go behind them.
When I say we, I mean the socialworkers, because I work so
close with them, and the socialworkers will then get that they
have within.
It depends on the state, butmost have to respond within 10
(20:45):
days, unless it's an emergencyright now, and then they have to
go out and start digging alittle further, and they're
highly trained on looking at thered flags and the issues, and
they then send a report over forlaw enforcement if they uncover
something that couldpotentially be criminal.
And that's how I often almostalways got my cases were
(21:05):
referred from social workers orreferred from officers the
social workers.
The first thing they'll say iswell, we called the police, they
didn't do anything because theysaid it was civil.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Civil, her family matter.
Yeah, there we go yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
So I've had to fight a few times.
I've even had to fight withprosecutors who don't want to
take my case, especially hereI'm currently in Missouri.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
And it is a lot to learn in the field of elder
abuse out here.
A lot, there's a lot to learn.
This is one of the reasons Igot so passionate into this.
I was so excited to be a brandnew detective.
And the reason I got into theelder abuse unit was because I
had done a few cases and I knewif I put in for it I might have
a chance to get it.
And when I got it for me, atthe beginning it was just
(21:48):
another investigative job.
But within a few weeks ofstarting the job I got one of
many cases on my desk, and thisparticular case was a financial
case and it was a case of agrandmother who had had a decent
amount of money in her life andshe lived in a nice part of San
Diego and her children andgrandchildren had put her in a
independent living facility.
(22:10):
So she basically has her ownlittle cute apartment, but she
goes down to the cafeteria forfood and you know this kind of
stuff Activities are always done.
But she needed a caregiver tocome into this little apartment
to help her with bathing andcleaning and so forth, and so
the family contacted awell-established home care
(22:31):
agency and they hired acaretaker through them that
would come in and do help aroundthe house and with cleaning.
The caretaker arrived and,unbeknownst to anybody, within
48 hours she had found a stackof checkbooks that were in the
house and she had started takingchecks out of the back and
forging them Now.
It didn't take long and thefamily soon realized because
(22:55):
they were overseeing grandma'smoney and didn't realize a
checkbook had been left in theapartment.
So somebody caught it prettysoon.
There was not a lot of moneymissing when the call came in.
So the call comes in, thepolice take a report, it gets to
my desk, I'm looking it overand I do what any investigator
who is this caretaker hired bythis well-established, good
(23:16):
agency?
And I do my work and I startlooking up her background.
Kaboom, the girl's name anddate of birth that the care
agency had on her comes back toa 14-page rap sheet.
I thought some care agenciesdid background checks.
Yeah, did they not do abackground?
Speaker 2 (23:35):
check yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:35):
So I called them up and I said to the care agency
did you do a background check?
Yes, okay, did she pass?
Well, to be honest with you,detective, we hired her before
we got the results back, because, you got to understand,
caretaking is such an evolvingdoor.
It's hard to get someone tostay in these positions.
We just go through people andwe didn't want another agency to
(24:02):
grab her.
So we went with our gut and wegot her in there and we got her
working and we are still waiting.
She just started a few weeksago and we're still waiting it
to come back.
Is there a problem?
I go well, yeah, it's not goingto pass, it's going to come
back failed.
Who did you send the money offto to do a background check?
The going to come back.
Failed.
Who did you send the money offto to do a background check?
The department of justice.
They told me the Californiadepartment of justice, and
that's who we went through and Isaid, okay, well, it's going to
come back and get ready.
(24:22):
You're probably going to getsued because this family is
going to realize that you didn'tdo a background check when you
always claim you do.
So a week later they call me upand they go we just got the
background check and she passedwhat?
Wow?
I'm looking at a 14, and everysingle thing on her rap sheet
had to do with financial theft.
She had done shoplifting, shehad done burglary, she had done
(24:45):
petty theft, you name it.
She'd done forgeries.
Her entire world was all aboutbeing a thief, and yet she
passes the background.
I said what do you guys get foryour background?
I don't know, I'm just the HRperson, I just send it off on
this fax machine.
So I called the Department ofJustice.
I'm like what's going on here?
How did this girl pass thebackground?
And I get a hold of the rightpeople at Department of Justice
(25:08):
and I eventually find out thatthe Department of Justice offers
a background check to careagencies and it's only a 15 at
the time, and this was 20 yearsago.
I'm sure it's only 20 bucks nowthough, but at the time it was
like 10 bucks and they send inthe person's info and the DOJ
does its background check andsends it.
And I go well then, how didthis girl pass?
And they said they took a lookat everything and they said oh,
(25:28):
we see how she passed.
You see, in California, but youknow, I'm starting to find it
Todd in other places as well.
Okay, at the time in Californiathe DOJ placed background checks
for elderly children in thesame category as background
checks for children caregiving,child care agencies.
(25:52):
If you want to work at apreschool, if you want to be a
coach of a baseball team, thevolunteer type stuff, background
checks.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
Okay, so that's why it got put in there.
Yeah, they didn't know at thetime where to really shove it.
So we do the same backgroundchecks we do for people that
work with children, because wefigured that would be important.
This is the problem thebackground check for children
has everything to do withphysical assault and sexual
abuse and nothing to do withfinancial, because children
(26:24):
don't have money.
So the only thing checked onthis woman was drug use and
assaultive behavior.
Physical abuse and death is noteven on these people, and the
number one crime against theelderly is financial.
And then it gets better.
And then I started lookingfurther.
I decided at this point thishas got to stop.
(26:45):
And I started a whole committee.
We're going to get this to stop.
We're going to get this to stop.
We're going to get the lawchanged.
And in our research for the nextyear, I found that the
California prison system offersand I believe it might still be
doing it the California prisonsystem offers a vocational
course to inmates.
You know all those rehab thingsyou can do.
So when you get out and youhave a job, yep, well, guess
(27:05):
what?
They offer a course on caringfor the elderly so you can get
out as a convicted felon and bein a senior's home that
afternoon, good, great.
And when you look at theDepartment of Corrections
curriculum for courses given toinmates, the only one that has
to do with caring for people iselder.
(27:25):
There's nothing in there whereyou could be a caregiver for
children.
It's ridiculous.
It's absolutely ridiculous, andI found that because I had seen
I had the drug addict gettingout of prison and being in a
home that afternoon by GoldenCare Agency.
That's going to go intograndma's, so there's nobody
watching.
You have to do due diligence towatch your family.
(27:47):
We are much more diligent as acountry to make sure who's
taking care of our children.
We would never allow aconvicted felon to take care of
our children.
We don't seem to care when itcomes to our seniors and they
have just as much to lose as achild does if not financial.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
I always say that there's a lot of fundraisers for
neglected puppies and children,but there's not much for
seniors.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
That's another thing I say.
We have shelters for domesticviolence and we have shelters
for families that are homeless,and we have shelters.
We have places for veterans.
We have nothing for seniors togo to in an emergency.
We have nothing for seniors togo to in an emergency.
Time and time again I get callsall over this country from
officers saying Leslie, I have asenior, I found them in filth
in their house.
(28:33):
They cannot stay here.
So we take them to the hospitalbecause they got to be looked
at first.
Right, yeah, well, thehospital's ready to spit them
out in 24 hours.
Where do I take them?
They can't go back to theirhouse because they need care.
They don't have anyone becausethey're the only one left in
their family.
There's nobody caring for them.
The house is deplorable.
Where do we put them?
What do we do?
I have begged doctors to keepthem in the hospital.
(28:55):
We've had it where the hospitalcalls and says we're now
getting a cab, we're pushingthem out the door.
Where do you put them?
We have runaway shelters forjuveniles.
We have nothing for seniors.
We need this country to payattention that we're living
longer and we need more to help,and we're all going to be there
one day.
(29:15):
So if somebody needs to take anofficer needs to take a senior
out of an environment that isdangerous.
We have nowhere to put the notemporary where there's
caregivers and people to overseewhat their needs are until our
social workers can get thempermanent homes, which takes
just a period of paperwork,because a lot of times they
(29:36):
qualify for, you know, a seniorhousing, but it's the paperwork
that's going to take a month.
So we need a temporary shelterand that's what we need to start
doing and I've never seenanybody do it yet.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
You're right, I hadn't thought about that.
But yeah, they go to thehospital and then they have to
go somewhere because thedoctor's like, okay, yeah, we
fixed them up, we got themhydrated.
Speaker 3 (29:59):
They're not that bad.
Off, boom off they go.
And yeah, take them and putthem right into a skilled
facility, but there's paperwork,you, you cannot.
The facility will not acceptthem.
So we've got this big red tapeproblem.
And so, even if it's anemergency, they won't accept us.
So you have to have a temporaryin-between and that's the
fundraising that I'd like to seestart happening to help our
(30:22):
seniors, like we do for all thefundraising.
I mean we need all those othershelters.
We also need them for ourseniors.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
You're right, very good point, all right.
So what are?
Speaker 3 (30:34):
some trends that you're seeing that we can
address.
Since I've been involved inthis now for 25 years, I've
probably investigated well over700 elder abuse cases, and the
one thing I used to say when I'dgo out and do my speaking
engagements is I would say, atleast we don't have to worry
about the computers, right?
Speaker 1 (30:53):
Yes, but now we have to worry about the computers.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
So that's the trend I'm seeing now.
There's so much loneliness ingetting older and so people
reach out and they startlearning and even if they just
have the basics, it really takesnothing.
So what I'm starting to see isa lot more sweetheart scams
being perpetrated over theInternet A lot more.
You know when COVID happened,oh Lord, the loneliness, granny
(31:23):
takeovers where someone meets orgets to know a senior who's
living alone in a house andtalks their way in and basically
becomes a roommate and thentakes over the house and starts
selling drugs out of it orwhatever might be happening.
We've had a couple of cases.
You know quite a few cases ofthat.
But the computer one is anissue and I often tell people.
Young people will say, well,I'm going to tell my senior
(31:45):
parent, I'm going to show themhow to get on the internet so
they can get in these chat roomsand they can visit and get to
know other seniors.
That is not a good idea Ifsomeone of a senior level is not
interested in learning acomputer because they don't do
that modern stuff.
Don't push it, don't push it.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
That's a good idea, yeah.
Well and you know, I grew up I'm59, I'll be 60 this year and so
I grew up in an age where thephone was hanging on the wall or
sitting beside the couch and ifsomeone called, they're meaning
to call you, it's someone youknow, and so you pick up the
phone because that's just whatyou do, and these older people
(32:25):
still do that.
If someone calls, they're like,well, I have to answer, no, you
don't.
You don't have to answerbecause tenses are, it's a
scammer.
And if you know and I thinkthat's one of my biggest things
is, yeah, stay off the computerif you don't know what you're
doing.
And, god bless my mother, shewas.
She died in 2016.
(32:45):
And for the last few years ofher life, I was constantly going
over to her house because shewould click on an email link and
it would just cause all kindsof problems.
I'm like, mother, don't clickon these links.
And it was just, yeah, thecomputer was a huge frustration
(33:06):
and she never fell for those,but I can see how easily.
But I think the biggest thingand I had a friend of mine
called the other day and shesaid her sister just sent some
scammer $8,000 because theycalled and said hey, that
computer that you ordered, weneed payment up front before we
send it.
She said, well, I didn't ordera computer.
Oh, yes, you did it up frontbefore we sent it.
(33:27):
She said, well, I didn't ordera computer, oh, yes, you did.
She's like, no, I didn't.
And she argued with him andsaid yes, I have the order right
here.
If you don't pay for this, thepolice are going to come to your
house.
Yes, oh my God, that is soridiculous, you know exactly
what to say.
Speaker 3 (33:40):
She got scared.
You know exactly what to say.
We're talking about a group ofpeople that believe that
everyone's honest and they'revery patriotic and they're very
polite and they don't want andthey believe.
I mean, why would someone lie?
I mean why you know.
So that's the hardest part isis the gullibility you know and
you appreciate that, that gentlekindness.
(34:01):
But at the same time you've gotto teach them to be wise and to
be cautious.
And they've had that same phonefor 45 years, so you know
they're going to answer it,they're going to talk to
whoever's on the other line.
They're lonely, so theychit-chat for a while.
(34:21):
And yeah, we got the phone scams.
Go down and buy me some giftcards, and that's why every time
you go into a bank or a lot ofthe and I do a ton of bank
training you know when theseniors come in and they need to
make large withdrawals, they'llask them questions to make sure
.
But then the scammers know whatto tell the senior to answer.
(34:41):
So we see all sorts of scamslike that going on the
sweetheart scams over the phone.
We have the bank scams, whereI'm the bank examiner and you're
going to help us catch a badteller who's stealing from.
And we noticed they were lookingat your account.
So we're going to need you togo in and make a withdrawal and
we want you to come in and do itand then walk out to the
(35:03):
outside and we'll take the moneyand put it back for you.
I mean, it sounds bizarre,right?
Oh yeah, I haven't heard ofthat one.
Oh yeah, come down.
Oh yeah, that's one.
We're calling from the bank.
We're the authority at the bankor we're the bank examiner, and
I need you to go get some moneyout of your account because we
have a teller who's stealing andwe know that they've been
looking at your account.
(35:23):
So we want you to go in thereand take, you know, $5,000 out.
We're going to have you come inand the teller you go up to and
the senior will fall for it andthey'll go up to the teller and
they'll withdraw the money andthey'll go out to outside and
there'll be a person waiting andthey'll go.
Ok, you can give it back to meand I'll go put it back and we
appreciate you helping in theinvestigation.
Or we have the grandma I'm injail scam and I need money right
(35:45):
now and I'm going to havesomebody come pick it up.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
With.
Ai now they can duplicatevoices so well, it sounds just
like them, and that's kind ofsad about how disconnected
families are.
That a grandparent wouldn'tknow that their granddaughter's
not in Mexico, you know?
She calls us like hey, grandma,I'm in Mexico and I just got
(36:10):
arrested.
Oh for you not to know thatit's just kind of sad.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
Double-check these things right and they often
don't.
So those are the really hardones.
We can't get the money back.
And to lose that kind of moneyI mean when seniors lose chunks
of their investments or chunksof their money it's devastating.
I mean it's devastating toanybody, but it can be even more
devastating to a senior becausethey can't make that money back
(36:39):
, they can't go back to work.
They feel terribly takenadvantage of.
They don't even want to tellpeople in their family it's
happened yeah so a lot of timeswe'll have such a great loss of
money because it's going on fora period of time and they're
just not going to tell anyone.
Because if they tell someonethat they got scammed, then
they're going to think theycan't take care of themselves.
And that's the scariest thingof all is a senior losing their
(37:02):
independence and being takenaway from their home, because
that's the number one thingseniors do not want is to lose
their independence and be takenaway from their home.
So that's also the number onething that is threatened to a
senior if they don't cooperate.
In other words, what I'mpointing out is your number one
and number two suspects in thesecases statistically proven are
(37:22):
caretakers and family members.
It's actually family membersfirst, then comes caretakers,
and often the family member isthe caretaker, but family
members are by far the numberone suspects in these cases.
And what are families?
How do they pick?
How do you pick the rightperson to look out for you?
I'll tell you something.
This is the story I always shareeveryone, because I see this
happen time and time and timeagain.
(37:44):
You'll have a regular familyand, let's say, this couple has
four children.
Three of the kids grow up anddo fine.
They're normal, they have anormal life.
They, you know, go on, they getmarried, they have careers,
they have families andeverything is wonderful.
But there's that one kid, thatone in that family of four that
never got their act together.
They screwed up in school, hada little bit of a drug problem
(38:05):
in high school, couldn't keep ajob.
Mommy and daddy felt sorry forhim, bailed him out constantly,
has babies.
They're not paying for livesoff of mom and dad in the
basement.
Let's go on and on.
We're all recognizing we mightbe recognizing our own relative
right, those who are listeningnow?
Okay, so guess who mom and dadexpects to be their taker.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
The one that's there, the one who's?
Speaker 3 (38:28):
already moving off of mom and dad, the one who's
already living at home, andguess who always agrees to it?
All the other children who aretoo busy to deal with mom and
dad.
So yeah, let's let Junior do it.
He's a screw-up anyway.
And that way you know what.
We can even sign him up forIHSS in-home support services
(38:48):
and then that way the governmentwill pay them.
If mom and dad makes low enoughincome, then they can actually
get a few shekels from thegovernment to be the caretaker
to mom and dad, and all we haveto do is have mom and dad sign
off on their timesheet.
Guess who forges the timesheetand doesn't ever do any work for
mom and dad.
Guess who yells at mom and dadto make sure they forge that.
(39:13):
Who guess who keeps takingmoney on top of the other money?
Guess who cannot take care ofmom and dad if they can't take
care of themselves?
He's got children he doesn'ttake care of.
He's got a job he can't handle.
He can't get his bed made inthe morning.
How is he gonna take care ofmom and dad or she?
But yet that person the wholefamily agrees needs to go in the
house to take care of mom anddad.
Don't do it.
The person who needs to takecare of mom and dad is probably
the busiest person in the family, but definitely don't allow the
(39:37):
problem child to be the one,because that will then be a
absolute nightmare that you'recontributing to.
When the time comes, I wish Iwas to the point where all the
money's gone and all of a suddeneverybody looks and goes.
What, hey, we put you in chargeto pay the bills.
The house is going into a rearengine.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
I wish my listeners could see this.
I'm doing this visually and sheis riled up, you see me getting
all this.
She is riled up, that's good.
Speaker 3 (40:03):
I'm very passionate.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
I appreciate the passion.
Speaker 3 (40:05):
I'm all over the room like that.
So I have some great classes Iteach, if anybody's ever
interested, and I have taperecordings and everything of
interviews.
I've got some undue influencestuff that just blows your mind.
And another thing, and let'spoint out, and I'm sure your
listeners are aware of this,elder abuse doesn't happen just
in the lower income areas.
(40:26):
Elder abuse can be rich on rich.
I have a case I'm working onright now where the daughter is
very successful and very wealthy, but so was mom in her day, and
the daughter is doing the bestshe can to get all the
inheritance to the tune ofunduly influencing mom right
over the phone.
So what does a goodinvestigator do?
I record those phone calls.
(40:46):
So there's so many ways andthat's what you do as an
investigator.
You start looking at the lawwithin the state you're working
in and how you can work thesecases, and there's rarely a
situation you can't put togethera decent case if you have
cooperation.
That's key.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
So what can you do for us as attorneys?
Speaker 3 (41:07):
Well, what can I do?
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
Well, if we see elder abuse, if we see something
going on and if we say we can'tget the police involved, they
just won't get involved.
Can we call you and get you tolook at some things for us?
Speaker 3 (41:24):
Absolutely.
I have a websiteelderabuseexpertcom.
I can be reached on that andthen I'll be glad to hand to you
if you want to later I'll giveyou all my personal information
and that you can get it out toeveryone.
So, yeah, I do a ton oftraining and do a ton of
speaking and I'm not expensivebecause I love to travel.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (41:43):
Okay, paige is a happy girl, but also, you know,
I want people just to care.
Yeah, you know we can get sobusy into making money in our
careers and moving along, movingalong, but remember to care.
Seniors are not easy to workwith.
Okay, this is not an easy areato work in.
Yeah, not an easy area to workin.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:05):
Seniors can be grouchy, stubborn, set in their
ways, absolute pain in the buttand full on liars if they want
to be Sure, because they're justhuman, like everybody else, and
they're nervous.
The minute they're in youroffice they're nervous.
The minute I walk in their homeor they come to my office,
they're nervous.
So make sure you spend sometime learning.
(42:26):
Get your training in there andjust the training of the law
that you all know.
Learn the social side.
Learn from trainers who cancome in and show your staff how
the elder brain works, becauseseniors look at things different
.
They come from a different timethan we do.
They have differentexpectations.
They have even male-femaledifferences.
(42:47):
You know you look at yourgrandparents and how their
dynamics were as a couple andhow they ran their home, and now
one of them's dead and say it'sdad, grandpa, who died and
grandma never handled thecheckbook because he was the man
in the house.
Okay, we can get mad at that,all we want, but we just need to
deal with it.
And right now, let's take overthat checkbook and make sure
grandma's okay.
(43:07):
So I guess my thing is to justtruly get it.
Get it in its entirety and youwill find you are a better
attorney for your client becauseyou're going to understand all
their needs.
You'll pick up on little thingsthat maybe aren't even in your
wheelhouse but you might be ableto share with someone they
might need that.
But yeah, you know, that'sreally.
(43:28):
What I want to say is just makesure your training is extremely
thorough and don't give up onyour law enforcement.
I guess, call me and I could putthe word out to local law
enforcement.
Or, you know, when you'rehaving your conversation with an
officer who's trying to tellyou it's civil, pull out the law
book.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
The criminal law book , the guy who's on your offices.
Speaker 3 (43:47):
Yeah, that's true, we say in my part of the world,
let's look at the law book.
Oh, you say this is Sybil.
Okay, here, every single statehas an elder abuse statute.
Sure, every single one.
And you'll be amazed at howpowerful they are if you don't
understand them.
And when you look at it, youshow that law book to that
officer who's standing in youroffice and you're trying to make
(44:08):
a case.
Look at it.
Says through deception, coercion, undue influence and money was
taken.
Because they think undueinfluence is, she gave
permission.
Well, they were talked into it,but she still gave permission.
No, no, no, no.
There's a thing called undueinfluence.
It's like brainwashing.
Can you talk a child into beinga victim of child abuse?
(44:29):
Yeah, how do our child abuserslure their children in?
Seniors get lured in also for adifferent reason Financial gain
, almost always.
So that's how I explain to theofficer.
So if there's a way you canstill be passionate about it and
say you've, and then don't beashamed, but I'm a fighter is to
(44:50):
ask for their supervisor.
You're trying to make an elderabuse report.
You know you're looking at goodevidence, you know you have a
crime and you have an officergoing.
No, I'm sorry, it's civil, letme talk to your supervisor.
You have a right as a citizenthat I want to talk to your
supervisor and make thatsupervisor then come into your
office.
Tell me why, because I'mlooking at it in the law book.
Tell me why you can't take areport on this.
(45:11):
But I'll tell you what theproblem is.
Once they do get you, get themtalked into taking that report,
who's he going to give it to?
The detective hasn't beentrained either.
If he hasn't trained hisofficer.
So, my biggest dilemma now is,as I'm getting close to
retirement, I'm trying to get asmuch training in as I can.
To get these agencies torealize you need a dedicated
team.
You need to at least dedicatesome of your hours of your
(45:33):
academy towards training elderabuse.
And I am now starting to getinvited into these academies so
that people understand.
But just don't give up.
Just call the next officer, orat least call APS, every single
time you see something thatcould be something.
And even if you're not sureit's not your job, to be sure
(45:53):
it's the social worker's job Allyou need is suspicion.
That's a good point and youhave every right to make that
call, and wouldn't you sleepbetter at night to know you had
someone checking, then to findout six months later you read it
(46:14):
in the newspaper that we have adead senior.
Oh, I knew that person.
Speaker 2 (46:15):
Oh my god I knew that was gonna happen.
I know they got that dirtbagkid in their house, yeah, with a
drug problem.
You know very good points.
Okay, is there anything elsewe've not talked about that you
want to let our listeners know?
Give?
Speaker 3 (46:22):
me a call anytime yes , and you've got my email.
Elderviewsexpertcom're right,it's fairly new.
Speaker 2 (46:29):
Okay, okay, leslie, thank you very much.
I appreciate your time todayand to all my listeners.
Thank you for listening and ifyou need Leslie's help, her
contact information will be inthe show notes.
And, as always, thank you somuch for listening and we will
see you next time.
And, as always, thank you somuch for listening and we will
see you next time.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
Thank you for joining this episode of the Elder Law
Coach podcast.
For those eager to take theirelder law practice to new
heights and are interested inTodd's acclaimed coaching
program, visitwwwtheelderlawcoachcom.
With Todd Whatley by your side,the journey to becoming an
elder law authority has neverbeen more achievable.
(47:07):
Until next time, keep learning,keep growing and stay
passionate about elder law.
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