August 21, 2025 • 54 mins
DON'T WAIT FOR THE NEXT EMERGENCY, PLUS, SAVE 15%: https://www.twc.health/elsa
#ifounditonamazon https://a.co/ekT4dNO
TRY AUDIBLE PLUS: https://amzn.to/3vb6Rw3
Elsa's Books: https://www.amazon.com/~/e/B01E1VFRFQ
Design Like A Pro: https://canva.7eqqol.net/xg6Nv...
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
She's the voice behind the viral comedy bold
commentary and truth-packedinterviews that cut through the
chaos.
Author.
Brand creator.
Proud conservative Christian,this is Elsa Kurt.
Welcome to the show that alwaysbrings bold faith, real truth
and no apologies.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Well, hey there, friends, we are here today with
an interview.
I'm super excited about this.
As you can see, I do not haveClay with me this time He'll be
back in the next one but todaythis is really fascinating for
me.
We're going to be talking aboutwhat it was like to guard one
of the most powerful andpolarizing Christian figures in
(00:37):
modern history.
Today's guest isn't justspilling the tea.
He is pouring it from a500-page kettle, so we're going
to buckle up for this one.
My guest today is going to beDavid Wilco tea.
He is pouring it from a500-page kettle, so we're going
to buckle up for this one.
My guest today is going to beDavid Wilcox.
He's a former California policeofficer turned personal
bodyguard to the late PatRobertson, and he's written a
bombshell memoir calledProtecting Pat Robertson
(01:00):
Confessions of a High-PricedBagman.
It is part memoir, part exposeand all truth, and he is taking
us behind the curtain of theChristian Broadcasting Network,
political campaigns and his ownpersonal conviction.
So I want to welcome you, david, to the show.
Thank you for being here.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Thank you, allison.
It's really an honor and apleasure to be here, absolutely
so.
I was so glad when a pleasureto be here, absolutely so.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
I was so glad when you reached out to me, connected
on good old LinkedIn over there, and you were so kind to reach
out and offer to come talk aboutthis, and off air, I was
telling David that I still callmyself every day.
I call myself a baby Christian.
I think I will live and die asa baby Christian.
I will never.
I will never know enough andthat's okay because it's you
(01:48):
know the journey and thelearning and you know just the
growth is completely worth itand so much of this is
absolutely new information to me.
So I want to start with youfrom the beginning and I'm going
to shut up and let you starttalking in a moment, I promise.
So you were a police officer inOceanside, california.
I would love to know yourjourney, what brought you from
(02:12):
there to Regent University andhow on earth did you become Pat
Robertson's personal bodyguard?
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Wow.
I was born and raised inOceanside, California.
It's a beach town right on thecoast about midway between San
Diego and Los Angeles.
It's my hometown.
It used to be a sleepy littlebeach community and one of the
strong aspects, I guess, isOceanside has Camp Pendleton
(02:39):
Marine Corps Base attached to itand I graduated high school
from Oceanside High.
I was a beach lifeguard inCalifornia for six years and
went away to college, got aswimming scholarship and came
back to Oceanside after Igraduated and I had a job that
(03:04):
summer, lifeguarding.
And a friend of mine told me hesaid uh, hey, he says the
Oceanside is looking for somenew police officers and they
said but it might be a littlelate for you because the
deadline came for theapplication.
So I called the city and theysaid well, show up, and if we
have some absentees we'll letyou take the test.
They did Uh and uh, I got hired.
The second out of about 400people Took a test and went to
(03:28):
work for Oceanside PD, had ashort term career.
I got injured on duty, got alot of my right knee missing a
lot of duty injury and retiredand retired and I fell in love
(03:50):
with a woman that I married andshe had always wanted to be a
producer for the 700 club tvshow.
And I thought, when she said,well, that's my goal, I want to
go to grad school at cbnuniversity, which is now regent
university, and I said, okay,well, let's go make your dream
come true.
So we passed up, we got married, we packed up, moved across the
country we arrived in August ofall times to arrive in Virginia
(04:13):
and it was like I'd beendropped into weather hell from
going from a beach community.
It was 72 degrees year-round.
Anyway, we moved into studenthousing at Regent University on
the campus of CBN and I was anew husband and I wanted to take
care of my young bride.
I'm going to go get a job.
And I went over to studentservices and turned in my resume
(04:36):
to a beautiful woman namedNancy Keith.
I'll never forget her.
She just was very receiving andwarm and she looked at my
resume.
I said I want to get a job andI'm going to grad school.
So I enrolled in grad school aswell and she said oh, you've
got police experience.
She said do you know PatRobertson?
I've seen him on TV.
(04:57):
Sure, I know who Pat Robertsonis.
And she said well, he'sthinking of running for
president and he's looking forbodyguards right now.
Would you be interested?
I said, well, I just have twoquestions what does it pay and
where do I start?
You know, and that was prettymuch it, I went over and talked
to the head of the securitydepartment, Jim Small, who's now
my best friend.
He was the best man at my reallegitimate wedding, my second
(05:20):
bride, but anyway, Jim, we met,he hired me, brought me on board
and then a few weeks I wasliving this duplicitous life
where I would go to grad schoolat night, take my grad school
classes, get up in the morningwith a suit and tie on and I'd
be shadowing Roberton throughoutthe day.
And the weirdest part of it wasweekends.
(05:44):
Friday nights would come andwe'd fly out somewhere across
the country and he'd be doingpre-campaign stuff.
He had started a group calledAmericans for Robertson, which
was his pack, and we would putall of these things under their
banner and we would fly out on aFriday night to God knows where
and he would have 13, 14 eventsto do over the course of a
(06:08):
weekend, and Sunday night we'dfly back into town and it was
back to grad school and it wasjust, it was a God thing.
And you know we talk about beinga baby Christian.
My philosophy is we're all babyChristians until we get called
home, so we're always learning.
We're never quite wise enough,but I had never, ever in my life
(06:29):
, really pursued a job.
I mean, I always kind ofbackdoored into a felon tool.
I wanted to work at Disneylandwhen I was in college.
I got hired there and justshowed up.
They hired me that day and mylife's been that way, you know,
and I'm kind of like thesepeople that can fall down in a
mud pit and wake up and have adiamond stuck in their teeth.
It's just.
(06:49):
God's been very benevolent tome and I think it's because I
just had a real horrible deficitof upbringing.
I did not have a father.
He left when I was nine monthsold.
My mom was quite dysfunctionaland so I pretty much raised
myself and, whether you believethis or not, God audibly spoke
(07:10):
to me when I was a teenager andhe said I know you've never had
a real father, but I'm going tobe your father and I'm going to
provide for you my heart and cry.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
You're going to make me cry.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
But he told me.
He says you've got to just bepatient.
My heart, I cry, you make mecry.
You've got to just be patientand I was, and he's taken care
of me.
I mean, I have done so manyincredible things.
I've been able to produceanimated cartoons for CBN that
have evangelized nearlyone-fifth of the world with the
Christmas story.
I've been past bodyguard, I'vetraveled all over, I've dined
(07:47):
with kings and princes andpresidents.
It's just been a phenomenallife.
But I trusted in him.
So that's kind of a convolutedanswer to your question, but
that's how I became thebodyguard for Pat and I
eventually took over the entiresecurity department and, as I
(08:08):
wrote in my book, it was reallya journey because I started off
really, really believing in whatPat Robertson was doing.
I mean I was willing to take abullet for the man.
I loved him.
He was doing miraculous things.
He had the social program.
When he, whenever a hurricanewould strike down in the south
(08:31):
uh past operation blessing, wasdown there within 24 hours with
hot meals and water.
And weeks before fema, you know, and that was a part of his
ministry handing out food, or Iwas giving.
I was donating to uh, the 2500club member.
I was giving 2500 a year.
(08:51):
I wasn't making a lot of moneybut I believed in what he was
doing.
He had literacy programs in theinner cities.
He was just doing wonderfulthings and it was.
I was proud.
I was so proud to be at hisside.
And then politics got involved.
Yeah, yeah, that marked thechange for you, right, right,
(09:13):
like politics has done with somany people's lives, it pollutes
them, it draws them, itperverts them, and I watched
this taking place very early onwith Americans for Robertson.
And then, when Pat made hisdecision and I'll tell you about
that if you want the definingmoment and I can pinpoint it,
(09:34):
and you could give me sodiumpedophile and my story wouldn't
change we were in the backseatof the company car.
We always drove Pat around.
He hated limousines.
He hated Jimmy and Tammy Bakerbecause they drove around a
white stretch limo all the time.
Right, he said I'll refuse toget in a limo if you bring me
one.
We drove him in a dark blueLincoln Town car.
(09:55):
Pat was a big guy, passed about6'3 and a half.
Really, I didn't realize he wasthat tall.
That's why he hired me.
I'm 6'5", he gets up behind me.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
There you go.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
We're sitting in the company car.
You're probably too young toremember the movies back in the
1940s or that era where the heroof the story had a little angel
and a devil sitting on hisshoulders and they'd be trying
to sway him over to the side.
That's exactly what it was like.
Pat was in the backseat of thecar, sitting in the middle.
On one side he had Rob Hartleywho was the money man for CBN.
(10:29):
He's like the vice president ofdevelopment.
He controlled the coffers.
And on the other side was a guynamed Mark Nuttall who was
Pat's campaign manager, and I'mnot going to go any further
because I don't want to get sued.
Anyway, I was sitting in theshotgun seat where I normally
sat and I was listening to thisconversation and Mark Nuttall
(10:51):
started off.
He said Pat, you've got to giveyour campaign Americans for
Robertson access to the threeand a half million names on the
CBN donor mailing list.
We don't have any money.
We need the money.
They got deep pockets.
Give it.
We need it, pat.
We need if you want to bepresident, we need it.
Shift over to the angel, robHartley.
(11:13):
Pat, you can't do that.
First, it's illegal.
You can't be a tax exemptministry status and give to a
political campaign like that.
Secondly, it's going to confusethe heck out of people.
You got these little old ladiesout there sending their $20 a
month, their own fixed income.
Suddenly they're going to getmailing from Americans for
Robertson.
(11:33):
Pat Robertson, get him in theWhite House.
A couple of things are going tohappen.
The $20 is going to have to bedecided.
Am I going to give it to CBNMinistry or am I going to give
it to CBN ministry or am I goingto give it to the political
campaign?
So that's going to fragment thedonor base.
The other people are going togo.
Pat Robertson running forpresident, church and state,
forget that guy.
I'm going to send my $20elsewhere.
(11:53):
You know, and it went back andforth, back and forth, back and
forth and I'm sitting there.
I'm thinking we are at thecrossroads, we are at a critical
point for this ministry.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
You remember thinking that in that moment, then even
yeah, oh God.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
I was just not.
Too many things make me anxious, but this really bothered me.
And then it came and there wasthis.
They finished talking and therewas about 30 seconds of
absolute silence.
And then I heard Pat's turn toMark, to the money man, rob
Hartley, and he said give themthe list.
And I got gut punched.
(12:31):
Now, fast forward.
You guys don't need to know allthe gruesome details, you can
get that in the book.
But here's the result of thatone ego-driven decision.
When Pat Robertson came backfrom politics, when he got his
Easter handed to him on what hecalled the primary super
(12:54):
primaries took place.
He knew he didn't have asnowball's chance.
He came back to CBN 630employees lost their jobs
because the money dropped off byover 40 percent.
That one decision, in fact.
Pat came back to cbn and for itwas.
(13:14):
It was decimated and it stillwas emerging and he took a legal
pad, which what he always usedto write on, and he walked
around the campus, the entirecampus, cbn, and he would stop
people in the hallway and hewould say what's your name, what
do you do?
Who do you report to?
And they tell one.
You know, my name is john doeand I work in direct mail
(13:36):
marketing and he'd make notesand then he would give the
papers to jim small, who was thehead of that security
department at the time, and hewould have all the people that
he needed laid off.
Now it was Jim's cheerful jobto walk around to all the
presidents and say Pat wantsthese people gone.
(13:56):
It was a critical blow.
And then it got worse becausehe got desperate.
And I can give you a a bushelfull of examples and it'll kind
of make you sick to your stomach.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
Yeah, so this had to be so difficult for you to
witness firsthand.
So you're seeing one side ofthings.
The public is seeing somethingcompletely different, right, I
mean things the public is seeingsomething completely different,
right, I mean, that had to havebeen one heck of a struggle to
just even just to reconcilethese two realities, or one's a
(14:33):
false reality.
The other one is reality yourrelationship with him.
Was it strictly bodyguardperson you're guarding?
Did you have, like, were youable to have conversations, like
could you address any of thesethings with him?
Or was there just that linebetween you two that you just
(14:54):
simply couldn't cross over?
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Yeah, that's a great question.
Pat knew thousands andthousands and thousands of
people and I can tell you pointblank, he did not have a best
friend that he could call in acrisis.
I wasn't it, don't get me wrong.
Right, he used me, and beforeme Jim small, to kind of be his
(15:19):
hit man.
If he wanted somebodyterminated, he'd say I want to,
I want you to go.
That guy's gone, get rid of himnow.
And you'd have to go deliverthe bad news.
He'd have you run errands forhim.
I've got dozens and dozens ofanecdotes in there.
We had a student housing area.
(15:41):
There was word that one of thelaw students was beating his
wife down there.
So Pat grabbed me in thehallway one day and said David,
just grab a couple of guys fromyour goon squad and go over
there, find that guy and takehim out back and rough him up a
little bit.
And I said Pat, are you goingto post my bail when he has me
arrested for assault and battery?
He said we don't know how totake care of it.
Just go take care of that.
(16:02):
That's the kind of thing youknow.
He's equipped Ron McGraw onstreet vengeance, the thing that
I, if I, could tell one set ofstories that'll really paint the
picture.
He, he, people are criticizingme for writing the book because
they all believe what they sawfor 60 minutes five days a week
(16:24):
on the 700 Club Fatherly PatRobertson leaning into the
camera, pretty with me now whenthat red light went off.
He was a tyrant.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Was that always or just when the political side
came in?
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Here's the crux of the entire book that I wrote
about that.
When he got back to CBN and sawwhat had happened without him
being there 47 percent drop inthe money, dropping the money he
had an epiphany.
He realized oh my God, what'sgoing to happen when I leave
(17:05):
this earth to my ministry?
There's no way to fill in.
And so he panicked and hedecided to go after what I call
these get rich quick schemes.
And I used to tell Pat and Ispoke very honestly with him
because I didn't care if hefired me or not, I will get
another job, you know, and Icarried a gun.
(17:26):
So but I tell him, pat, why areyou doing this stuff?
There's an old saying you dancewith the one that brought you
to the dance.
You didn't get where you aredoing multi-level marketing and
get rich quick scheme.
You got here because ofministry.
He ministered to people and hejust kind of blew me off.
You know he just he was focused.
He started getting involvedalso with direct mail, a
(17:52):
multi-level marketing.
He started a company calledbenefits plus.
They were selling coupon booksand he was going around the
country telling people they canmake a 10, $15,000 a month
selling coupon books.
And he was going around thecountry telling people they
could make $10,000, $15,000 amonth selling this thing For the
people that he hired to run it.
I got spidey sense going on andI was like these guys are
creepy.
(18:13):
I told him.
I said I'm going to runbackground checks on them, pat,
because they're in a fiduciarycapacity for you.
And he's like and they love theLord, they're going to tell me
they're going to make a lot ofmoney.
They were all corruptBankruptcies, fraud,
embezzlement and he gave themthe keys to the kingdom.
They were off property that day.
He got involved with it.
(18:33):
People can Google this.
Check out a guy named MobutuSeseseko.
He was the dictator of Zaire.
We went over to Zaire and Patkind of deal to do diamond
mining in Zaire and he set up aprivate company and Mobutu was a
(18:55):
butcher.
He killed tens of thousands ofhis own people and I thought
what's this minister, thisBaptist minister, doing, you
know, having his side tied toPresident Mobutu?
And then he got involved with aguy named Charles Taylor, the
dictator of Liberia.
Taylor was eventually tried bythe world court for crimes
(19:17):
against humanity.
He wiped out tens of thousandsof his own people and Pat had a
gold mining operation with him.
And here's where the duplicitycame in.
It's very graphic.
Pat had this group calledOperation Blessing.
That used to do really goodwork.
I mentioned it before.
They'd go down take care ofhurricane victims.
(19:37):
Johnny on the spot.
Great, great operation.
Pat gets on the spot.
Great, great operation.
Pat gets on the air.
And there was a migration.
I can't give you the exactdates, but there were nearly a
million refugees coming intoZaire, coming into Zaire, and I
(20:01):
can't remember the specificdetails, but they were fleeing
by the truckloads getting awayfrom I want to say it was
Liberia, but anyway, it's notimportant.
They were refugees, they werescared, they were living in
these dirt fields out in Zaireand they had a cholera outbreak
(20:26):
and 10s and 20s and 30s everyday were starting to die of
cholera.
So pat had this thing he hadset up years prior called the
flying hospital.
It was an l-1011 jet equippedstate-of-the-art operating rooms
, doctor's treatment rooms.
They were flying.
They were supposed to flyaround the world and do all
these things.
Well, one thing with PatRobertson it was always ready,
fire aim.
(20:46):
He never did his homework.
It was like great cause, let'sdo it.
He never checked it out.
The plane couldn't land in like30, 40% of the airports in the
world.
It was a huge plane.
So he has this plane, theflying hospital, and he comes on
the air and he's and he'sleaning into the camera.
He says folks, we've got thesepictures of these people dying
(21:07):
in the fields of zaire, they'vegot cholera.
Here's my vision.
I want to get a hundred doctors, together with my flying
hospital, send drugs the workersover there and we're going to
save the lives of hundreds ofthousands of people.
I need your money now forOperation Blessing and the money
started coming in.
It looked like a big success.
Well, it was a diversion.
(21:29):
About maybe 3% of the moneywent to its cause.
They sent aspirin and Tylenol.
They sent a handful of workersand Doctors Without Borders were
there and there's a film out.
I don't have the name of thevideo, you can google it, but,
um, they said, yes, cbn hadpeople over there.
They were running around, abouta dozen of them throwing bibles
(21:50):
at people and treating themwith aspirin.
We don't treat cholera withaspirin, okay, so where did the
rest of the money go?
Coincidentally, pat robertson'suh, diamond gold mining
operation.
Uh, one of the money go.
Coincidentally, pat Robertson'sdiamond gold mining operation.
One of the companies that heset up he owned 100% of it was
nearby.
They paved the landing field sothese planes that he bought
(22:12):
could get in.
There's a photo in the book ofthem offloading a diamond mining
dredge for Pat's diamond miningoperation, all paid for by
Operation Blessing and therefugee cholera money.
And people were in shock.
They don't believe me.
I was like track it down, it'sthere.
(22:33):
So he started raising this moneyunder false pretenses and then
he starts doing gosh, what else?
Oh, he decided he was going totake over uh oil refining in
california.
During their gas issues thisguy pitched a deal to him.
He says there's a there's a uhrefining uh facility in long
(22:53):
beach, california.
You can pick it up for pennieson the dollar and we can put
ships off the coast of longbeach and pipe the oil in and
you can refine it and makegasoline.
You'll be wealthy beyondcompare.
Let's do it.
They pumped in millions andmillions and millions of dollars
of ministry money.
Never created one drop ofgasoline, never refined one drop
of oil.
The refinery was under EPArestriction.
(23:17):
It had so many EPA violationsit would have cost a zillion
dollars to get it up and runningproperly.
He just never did the homework,he just always shot from the
hip.
The book's full of these things.
The book is transitional.
It was Pat Robertson, the goodguy doing great ministry work
and then politics, pollution,ethics have been skewed winner
(23:39):
at any cost.
And he starts coming up andsays I got to do something to
bring constant long-term moneyin to pay to run the ministry
when I'm gone and none of itworked and I think it's because
God went.
I'm taking my blessing off you,my son, because you're not
listening to me and I, I got toa point where I was just like I
(24:00):
can't tolerate this anymore.
I can't keep this guy alive anddo his bidding for him when
he's corrupt.
I don't like that.
So I know I'm long-winded, butit's a very convoluted thing
that he did and people say, well, that's Pat Robertson, he's the
700 Club guy.
He prays for people.
Sure, he does, sure he doesthat feeds the machine.
(24:24):
That's the whole grail.
Was that tv show?
And, um, you know, the rest ishistory.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
He imploded well, you , um, I wouldn't call you
long-winded, I would call you,uh, preemptively answering my
questions.
You know, I'm looking as as'rechatting, I'm looking at my
questions like, yep, he'sanswering that.
Yep, you are making my job soeasy.
You know, you gotta make mework a little bit.
Okay, fire away.
I'm kidding.
Well, so you know, I'mlistening to all this and
(24:52):
throughout it I'm thinking howdid they let you ever publish
this book?
Because this is, you know, this, this book, because this is,
you know, this is very damning,provable, uh, information, and
you know, obviously tarnishesthat that image of this beloved,
uh figure, um, you had to havehad tremendous opposition to
(25:14):
this.
Or did they just know that youhave the receipts and there's
nothing they can do about it?
Or did they try?
Speaker 1 (25:21):
well, when I, when I I worked for pat originally for
a period of time, I left for avery brief window of time to go
back to california.
I have my master's degree inanimation and film and I I
created an animated film.
It won a student academy award.
It was very irreverent.
I'll send you a copy of it.
And uh, and when I came back Itook over.
(25:44):
I built an animation studio forcbn.
Because I broke my proposal.
I said you got everything hereyou need to produce animation,
except the studio.
Give me some money and I'llbuild it for you.
And then we that's we ended updoing these videos that have
evangelized the world.
But then I came back to CBN.
That's when I was full-timebodyguard and they stumbled.
(26:06):
Remember I told you Pat wasready, fire aim.
He said brother, I need you to.
He said Jim Small says you'rethe only guy in the property
that can keep me alive.
Will you take over for him?
I said sure, I'd be honored to.
Didn't ask me to sign an NDA.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
I was wondering about that.
That was one of the firstthings.
I'm like where's the NDA?
How did he?
How did they not do an NDA?
That's crazy.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Because nobody everybody's scared to death of
Pat Robertson at CBN.
He used to walk down the hall.
Pat would always wear cowboyboots and he walked down.
The third floor hall was calleduh, vice president's row.
All the vps have their officesup there and you hear them clomp
, clomp, clomp and it was likethe angel of death was coming
down the hallway.
(26:50):
The vice presidents would runinto their offices and close
their door and sprinkleimaginary blood over the
doorpost, hoping the angel ofpat would pass and, you know,
kill him.
You know, and and so he.
So nobody would ever go to Patand say, pat, you screwed up,
you didn't get an NDA from David, you need to go get that.
You know, nobody had thebackbone to do it, so I rode the
(27:14):
train.
I figured, hey, man, all betsare off, I can do whatever I
want because they've got nolegal recourse.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
And yeah, I've got a lot of stuff in there, you know
did you get in your personallife, friends, family, anyone,
did anyone give you pushback onwriting?
Because I mean, it's, you know,it's a tell-all, basically it's
a memoir, it's a tell-all, it's, you know, very exposing of of
and that can, let's be realistic, you know, even in our nice
(27:44):
pretty Christian world thatcould potentially bring threats
and all kinds of negativeattention on you and your family
.
You know, I'm thinking all ofthe things, retaliatory actions,
I mean so much could have beenand maybe was brought upon you
and yours Was anybody tellingyou and I saw that reaction.
(28:05):
So there must be a yes to that.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Oh, yeah, it was a big yes when I first posted it.
I think I put it on Facebookand I'm not a real social media
guy, I'm kind of private in thatregard.
I put it on Facebook and therewere a lot of CBN people on
there and boy I mean, thefloodgates opened.
I got a couple of messages fromsome people that I really loved
(28:27):
and respected.
One guy had actually worked forme in security He'd been a
security aide and he says howdare you condemn Brother Pat?
I took him to the airport fiveor six times and he was nothing
more than a saint and agentleman.
I said Jerry.
(28:48):
I said I venture to say I spentmore time with that man in one
day than you did with yourentire career at CBN, so you've
got no room to criticize me.
And then I had one said that Iwas they were likening me to
Satan and I was a betrayer and Iwas a Judas.
And I said they said he's donewonderful things through his
(29:13):
ministry in the 700th.
I said, oh, I agree with you.
I said, 100%, he's done somewonderful things.
He's also done some reallyshady things.
And I said why don't you followup with the 640 people who lost
, who were coworkers of yoursthat lost their jobs because he
decided to go into politics.
Why don't you see how they feelabout Pat Robertson?
(29:33):
And you know it's fine, I'm abig boy.
I mean, when I was a cop I hadtwo motorcycle gang members put
a $25,000 hit on me to kill mebecause I sent them to prison,
and so I'm no stranger to that.
I've lived a good life.
You want me?
Come and get me.
I'm here, I know where I'mgoing.
But people are visceral.
(29:56):
They either love the guy orhate the guy.
There's no middle ground withhim.
He's very polarizing, but yeah,I mean love the guy or hate the
guy.
There's no middle ground withhim.
He's very polarizing, but yeah,I mean people entitled their
opinion.
But I've got all the tangibleevidence.
I was there.
I mean I, I did a lot of thisstuff.
I delivered a lot of hismessages and I took him
everywhere you know for thatperiod of time, and it's it's
(30:16):
all the truth.
It's in book.
That's why it's so long.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
What would you say your biggest hope is Like what
would your goal, what would yousay your goal was for publishing
that book?
Is it just?
I know?
You know, probably you're aseeker of truth, you know.
Is it just for the sake oftruth?
Is it for any hope of reform inthe upper echelon of the
(30:43):
Christian community,particularly you know, these
broadcasting companies and ifthey're running for political
office or any of those things, Ijust you know we've talked off
air about accountability and youknow I'm such a huge fan of
accountability, even when I'mthe one that has to take it for
something.
You know I just truly lovetruth, you know facts and all of
(31:03):
that.
Does that kind of resonate withyou?
Speaker 1 (31:06):
Yeah, that's a great question.
In fact, we're in sync today onquestions.
I was thinking about somethingcomparable, you might ask.
My big takeaway from the bookand I think I mentioned it in
there pretty well is God's a bigGod.
He's everywhere.
And those of you who go out andjoin a church and I'm not
(31:29):
against church, I was a bigchurchgoer.
I was a junior warden in theEpiscopal Church here in
Chesapeake, virginia, for manyyears.
I go to church religiously, nopun intended, but, um, the
takeaway I want you to get isdon't put your faith in the
religious leaders.
You don't need them to haveworship time with god.
(31:53):
You don't need them to pointtheir bony finger.
I I I mentioned, I think, inthe book about these pastors who
get up there and they put theirbony finger at you.
You're looking at porn andyou're a sinner.
You know, at the time I wrotethat book, 60 plus percent of
all pastors were activelyinvolved in online pornography,
(32:14):
so it's kind of the pot callingthe kettle black.
So men are corruptible.
Men are fallible.
Men are pastors.
Women are pastors.
They're corruptible.
Men are fallible.
Men are pastors.
Women are pastors.
They're corruptible.
Okay, don't put too much stockin them.
Okay, they're not God Jr.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
They don't.
I think that is one of thebiggest.
From what I understand, that'slike one of the biggest reasons
people walk away and havebitterness towards the church.
It's not because of God, it'snot because of Jesus, it's
because of people disappointingand failing them.
And every time I hear that it'slike a little knife in my heart
because you know, it tells meand I don't mean this, you know
(32:54):
hard, but I have to say thenthat must mean that your faith
was in man and not in God.
Right?
Like if you're getting pushedaway from your faith, from what
you claim to believe in, whichis God, and you walk away and
turn your back on God because ofwhat people do and have done
(33:14):
and say, then your faith wasn'tin the right place, right?
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Well, faith to me is an individual thing, it's a
one-key holder thing.
My faith is my faith.
And if your faith getsstrengthened by going and
sitting in church for two hoursevery Sunday and you're getting
something from the message andit's changing your life for the
better, god, by all means go,but don't think that it's the
(33:41):
end.
All to be all, be prepared, beguarded, you know, be wise when
you listen to the word.
You know, pat, like I say, hewas doing some great things and
they all proved out.
They were above board.
They were very legitimate,legal, ethical, you know.
And then politics came to thatchange and then he was doing
(34:03):
these things that were unethicaland you had to weigh it against
.
What's the truth here?
Is what he's doing legal?
Is he obeying the law?
Is it spiritual, is itscriptural?
And if not, you need toreassess your thing.
Maybe go find another church.
Don't sit there and justblindly go along.
You know who's doing goodthrough that.
(34:26):
That's one of the criticisms,I'll probably offend a bunch of
people.
So just line up.
When you come to get me theCatholic Church, you have to
confess your sins to a thirdparty, to God.
Where is that coming from,right, you know?
And then you look at some ofthe people that are receiving
(34:47):
the confession.
Catholic Church doesn't have areal stellar reputation, so it's
like I don't think this isGod's here.
I talk to him every morning inthe shower because I got water
pouring down on me.
I'm cushioned from the outside.
I can't pouring down on me, I'mpushing from the outside.
I can't hear anything and I'mjust crying.
I'm telling him thank you for awonderful life.
Could you give me some morefavor this week?
(35:09):
You know, whatever it is, it'sjust speaking from my heart.
Not to be long, don't have tobe on my knees, you know.
But that's the message I'mtrying to get to people is, if
pat robertson, who built a megaministry, is ministered to
people all over the worldthrough the 700th of TV show,
changed lives.
I mean, my ex-wife used to dotestimonials.
(35:29):
I see these changes in people'slives.
If he can do that and then hecan go off straight, off course,
who's to say your pastor can'tRight, just be smart.
You don't need to do anythingovert.
Hey, this guy wrote a bookabout pat robertson.
You're trying to tell me thesame things he did, so I'm
(35:49):
leaving your turn.
Come on.
Yeah, we're not thatrudimentary.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
Just be wise and in your, in your mind, in your
experience with pat robertsonand and just that whole world,
seeing it from the other side,seeing it from the inside,
really, with specific regard toPat Robertson, can you look at
(36:14):
his life, his contributions andsay does one cancel out the
other, or can the two exist inthe same space, all of the good
and all of the bad, or does thebad cancel the good?
How do you reconcile it in yourmind?
I think that's probably areally hard thing for people to
(36:36):
do.
I have a personal secondhand, Iguess experience with a pastor
or church.
It was like the first one thatI kind of vicariously started my
true faith journey on and thereended up being, you know, drama
.
Of course that's always thething that happens, right, that
(36:57):
pushes you away, right, thatpushes you away.
And for me personally, I'm ableto look at those sermons and or
remember those sermons and thelessons that I learned from them
and still get that same joy,because it was the message, not
the messenger, I guess, in a way.
So I'm wondering if you're ableto do that with him, or is it
(37:20):
just too much?
Speaker 1 (37:25):
So I'm wondering if you're able to do that with him,
or is it just too much?
Wow, that's a mind-nod rightthere.
No, he really is.
I'm spinning around, he is.
I love Pat as a human being.
I saw a great many humanitarianefforts by him, personal
humanitarian efforts.
I watched him.
(37:45):
We had a four producer at the700 Club lost her husband in a
rock climbing accident and Patended up buying her a house and
take care of her.
She worked for him for years.
Just a benevolent thing, nofanfare, no press release, no,
nothing.
You know He'd do a lot of thosethings.
(38:07):
But then he'd also go to theother extreme too, and he was a
very complex man.
I don't think I'm in anyposition to really judge whether
his net worth is good or bad.
He did what he did.
I know the motives behind itwere to take care of his
(38:27):
ministry.
He wanted to find a revenuestream that would last longer
than he would and give it a hook.
There are studies out that showthat personality-driven
ministries once the personalityleaves the ministries, tend to
implode.
It's hard to find another PatRobertson to fill in.
So I think Pat showed his humanside much more in his later
(38:54):
years because he was trying totake care of his baby, his
ministry, which was where he gothis start, that's his
birthright.
He was trying to salvage that.
I think he realized he madesome mistakes going into
politics.
He saw the dark side of it, butI think he just flat out ran
out of time.
(39:15):
Pat tended to draw counsel fromthose he shouldn't have gotten
counsel from.
If you and maybe I can end withthis, one day we were walking
along and he said he told mehe'd always tell me.
He said I just made so-and-so avice president or whatever you
know.
And I stopped.
I said you know what, pat?
(39:36):
I said Charles Manson coulddrive up in a Mercedes Benz, get
out wearing a $1,000 suit andsport in a Rolex and you'd make
him a vice president at CBN.
That's how bad your discernmentis.
He went I'm not that bad, am I?
I said oh yeah, you are.
I said you've got some realclowns working for you and we
(39:58):
just kind of went on his merryway.
He tended to choose people thatlook good in the role, but pat
was a controller.
He wanted control everythingand he put people in positions
that were disposable.
In case things planned didn'twork out.
He would fire that guy and getanother guy in.
People that ended up at RegentUniversity.
(40:18):
I used to joke that theiroffice chair was over a trap
door.
I mean he'd tell them to dosomething that didn't work out.
Oh, you're out, let's getanother prank.
So he didn't take accountabilityfor his failures.
He took accountability for thesuccesses, but he strictly just
ran out of time.
He was trying to take care ofhis baby the ministry.
(40:40):
I don't blame him, I don't hatehim.
I just think people don't evenknow the truth.
And you know, that's what I putin the book and Jim Spall
helped me write some of it.
He was with Pat before I was.
Tim gave me my job.
We sometimes get together.
We see him every Christmas downin Ocalaala.
We sit there, we talk in patrobertson voices to each other
(41:00):
because he'd get really high.
Brother, what are you doing?
You know that kind of a thing.
You know our wives sit thereand go.
You guys are just.
But.
But he was a dynamic guy, buthe just made some bad decisions
and he didn't listen to thefather, his father.
He listened to his lackeys andget him right in the keystone.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
There's really so much, you know, underlying
valuable message throughout thiswhole story, throughout your
whole book.
Really, you know the falseidols, the, you know having that
discernment and going directlyto God instead of you know
middlemen all the time, which weall tend to do.
And then it is natural, youknow human nature right to start
(41:47):
putting people on pedestals andall of that.
And you know, and I think it'sreally valuable for any
Christian, you know, new orseasoned, whatever you want to
call it, to remember thosethings and you know so it's kind
of.
Also, you know we called it amemoir, we called it an expose,
we called the book, all thesethings, but it's really a lot of
(42:10):
reminders to use discernmentand to just not put people on
those pedestals and just betruth seekers.
Really, you know and acceptthat, even when the truth isn't
pretty and it isn't what we wantto hear.
You know, I think we as peoplehave a tendency to not want to
(42:31):
hear things that don't alignwith what we want to think,
right, you know that's rampantin our culture.
You know, if it doesn't soundpretty, if it doesn't align with
what I think, right, you knowthat's rampant in our culture.
You know, if it doesn't soundpretty, if it doesn't align with
what I think, then it can't betrue or that person must be a
bad person.
And you know, the truth reallyis that there's a lot of gray
areas and I really love how youkind of close that out with
(42:53):
acknowledging the good and thebad, the truth and the myth and
all of the things that go withit.
And I just think it's reallyreally fair to be honest with
you and anyone who's watchingand you know is coming into this
defensively.
You know, in that must protectthe legacy of Pat Robertson.
This is, it's fair, it's fairand it's honest and you know,
(43:16):
and a personal account of yourexperience through that.
I would be very remiss if Idon't mention this.
This is not your only book outon that.
We're going to put up the coverhere.
You also wrote this book aboutRalph Reed and the Christian
Coalition, so I want everyoneI'm going to Well, I guess this
means I'm just going to have tohave you come back on again so
we could talk specifically aboutthat one.
(43:37):
Don't throw me into the briarpatch.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
Don't throw me into the briar patch.
Yeah, I'd love to.
Yeah, well, the tie-in justquickly is one of the things Pat
did back when I was there, whenI just had come on.
He formed the ChristianCoalition and for those of you
who are old enough to remember,they were a political juggernaut
In fact they, when theyimploded, pat kind of took the,
(44:00):
the skeletal machine andconverted it into his political
action committee for Americans,for Robert.
When he put this guy, ralphReed, in charge of the Christian
coalition and I was therewatching Ralph Reed I told my
wife at the time.
I said, yeah, I met this guy,ralph Reed.
I said I was with him for likefive minutes today and I just
(44:22):
wanted to go get steamed cleanto make sure I had my wallet
with me.
I mean just a snake oil.
Anyway, long story short, ralphReed should have gone to prison
.
I mean I got evidence in thatbook that when I mean in fact
his associates, just quickly,the associates that he worked
(44:43):
with after he left the ChristianCoalition, all went to prison
for a time, ralph.
Reed had some secret powerbrokers in the White House and
in politics that got hissubpoena lifted and he got to go
scot-free and the guy'scommitted a felony.
He's laundered money.
I've got all the evidence inhis book.
So, yeah, I'd really love totalk to you about that and I
(45:06):
would love it if Ralph reads tome because I'd love to have
discovery and go back and checkhis tax return.
That would make millions off ofexploiting.
He was telling people at theChristian Coalition that
gambling was a cancer.
It was turning wives intowidows and children into orphans
.
People were throwing money athim to go fight gambling.
(45:26):
Fast forward, a few years laterhe's secretly promoting and
protecting Indian gamblingcasinos in Louisiana.
He got paid about $3 millionfor that little clandestine
thing, but nobody knew aboutthat.
They will when they get thebook.
Yes, oh, there's, like we saidin the beginning, lots of tea.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, soanyway, but anyway, I get
(45:47):
passionate about it because it'sjust so full of nuggets about
who he really is and what hereally did.
So, anyway, but you've beenjust wonderful, um, and so
welcoming and you know youhaven't treated me like I had a
dead fish in my pocket like mostpeople do.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
No you know, like I told you from the beginning, I'm
coming in with, you know, anopen heart and no preconceived
notions on anything, on anything.
So you know, I'm simplyreceptive to hearing the
different perspectives, thedifferent experiences throughout
this.
And you know, and as I've beendoing my thing and being open
(46:27):
about my Christian journey which, to be perfectly honest, has
been amazing and wonderful, andyou know I see why people say
that there is a lot that comeswith it that is not so good.
Of course, when you're publicabout it, you open yourself up
to just very negative peoplesaying negative things, and for
(46:48):
me that's a great experiencebecause it's all things that
show me not only how strong myfaith is, but how strong I am
just as a human to not beaffected and bothered by those
things, how strong I am just asa human to not be affected and
bothered by those things.
And the biggest reason for thatis because I know who I belong
to and I know whose opinion ofme matters the most.
So when people on the Internetare saying much like you,
(47:12):
receiving the negativity, yeah,you just don't factor into my
life.
Unless you're, unless you're,the big guy, your opinion just
does not help the way that youthink it does right.
Speaker 1 (47:22):
Well, let me leave you with this partying
assessment.
I read people pretty good atcop training and bodyguarding.
You are very bold in professingthat you're a new Christian.
Think about a field.
You're a fresh field offurrowed ground.
There's a lot of ability to getthings planted in there.
(47:42):
Your faith is strong.
It hasn't been bombarded from abunch of weeds and briars and
other things.
It's at the most powerful stageright now for you and you need
to guard that.
Be patient.
I want to learn more.
I'm going to go seek this guybecause he's been a pastor for
30 years.
He knows all the answers.
Speaker 2 (48:03):
You read me well, by the way.
I want to know everything.
Five minutes ago.
Speaker 1 (48:08):
Sure, yeah, but be patient and digest it.
Okay, you go ahead and have awonderful meal, digest it.
If it doesn't suit you, get ridof it.
You're well-fertilized, fertileground, ripe for planting, and
(48:28):
the crops will be abundant inthe future, but you've got to
wait.
You've got to wait and seek God.
Don't go to man for yourcritical answers.
It's wise to get counsel.
It's wise to get counsel.
It's wise to get a second,third opinion.
I go to my wife all the time.
Am I being a dope for doingthis?
Yeah, you are.
Okay, she's wise.
(48:48):
Okay, but don't be anxious tobe super Christian.
Okay, because it's a loveaffair with you and the creator.
And just be patient.
It'll come, but just be guarded.
That's what I'm trying to tellpeople.
If the power of God isinconsiderable and fall, do you
think you can't do Right?
Right?
Speaker 2 (49:08):
Yeah, it's.
Actually I do find hearing thesetypes of things it is hard, and
I think it's hard for anyChristian to hear that just
wants to be so good in theirfaith and it knocks you sideways
a little bit because exactlythat like if what you know, we
in our minds have as like thepinnacles of faith and
(49:29):
connection with God, if theystumble, you know, and they're
so much more Christian than weare, you know.
So, yeah, that's, yes, those aredefinitely things that come
into my mind and I'm sure otherChristians' minds too that you
know how easy it is to fall, andI probably I guess my thought
on that would be that that'sactually a really good thing to
(49:51):
know because, like you said,it'll keep me on my guard, it'll
keep others on their guard aswell, you know, guard our hearts
and minds in Christ alone.
And yeah, and I want to tellyou something as well, if I may,
one of the first Bible versesthat I learned is maybe it's
kind of an odd one, but there'sa whole little story that goes
(50:11):
with it.
It's I will summarize it soquickly when I, when I really
opened my heart and said I thinkthis is the direction I belong
in, but I'm not sure and I askedGod, you know, give me a sign.
You know that's what we all say.
Right, give me a sign, god.
And literally the next day, apostcard came in the mail with 1
Peter 4.10.
Each of you should use whatevergifts you have received in
(50:32):
order to serve others asfaithful stewards of God's grace
.
And I went, oh, my stewards ofGod's grace.
And I went, oh my.
And as we were talking, thevery beginning, and you were
telling your story of how thingsjust fall into your lap and
they just happen, and that wasreally the first thing that
(50:52):
popped into my mind 1 Peter 4.10for you as well.
And just what a blessing thatis to use whatever gifts we have
received to serve God, you know, and to serve others.
So I love it.
Speaker 1 (51:00):
The other.
One other thing that's justcritical is pray without ceasing
.
But you got to understandsometimes the answer to the
prayer is no, it's not silencefrom God.
No, that's not the best for youright now.
If you think about all thedominoes that God's got to line
up for your prayer to take place, right now might be the time
(51:23):
for it to come to fruition.
So you've got to be patient.
Keep your ear peeled for hisvoice.
And he doesn't speak to you ina klaxon horn.
He speaks to you in a stillsmall voice.
If you're hearing things likeCharlie Brown's teacher, that's
not God.
Still small voice In the quiet.
(51:45):
2, 3 in the morning, you maywake up, get a little nugget
placed in your head.
That's the way he operates.
He's not necessarily standingup there with all the robes and
the vestments.
And this was for you.
This was for you.
That's theatrics, that'sBroadway, that's showbiz.
Okay, religion and arelationship with God is very
(52:06):
rudimentary.
It's a very simple connectionand that's what we have to rely
on for the truth.
Speaker 2 (52:12):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (52:14):
And now we're in AI time.
We're seeing all these thingson there.
Is that real Did?
Speaker 2 (52:20):
that kid, just levitate over that building.
You know what was that?
Discernment is getting harderand harder, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (52:25):
Be guarded.
Be guarded, elsa.
You've been a good light.
Speaker 2 (52:29):
Thank you, so have you.
What a wonderful and what a waywe just kind of closed out with
church a little bit right there.
I can't thank you enough forcoming out.
Please tell everyone where theycan find your books and your
website any of the things thatthey can find you and your work.
Speaker 1 (52:44):
Well, the books are both available on Amazon and
we're major booksellers.
It's called the Protecting PatRobertson Confessions of the
High Christ Bagman.
That's a whole nother story.
That's in the book and why Irefer to myself as a bagman.
And then the other book isTrial of the Devil Incarnate,
ralph Reed, god's Flim Flam man.
(53:04):
They're both available.
Now They've been available.
You can get them also throughmy website, bigfatcatbookscom,
and I have a site called theFlim Flam Chronicles and it
doesn't cost you a thing.
Go there.
And I did a series of abouteight to 10 minute narratives
(53:25):
about Pat Robertson and aboutRalph Reed.
If you want a shot, go to theFlim Flam Chronicles and check
out the Ralph Reed narrativesand you're going to think I'm
either the biggest liar on theplanet or he's the biggest
duplicitous person on the planet.
In fact, the um, oh, gosh, thehoney.
Uh, huffington post labeled himas the monumental hypocrite of
(53:50):
our time, ralph reed, the formerhead of the christian coalition
.
All the answers are there.
Uh, check it out.
It doesn't cost you a thing.
Just go there, just try to getthe truth out and you could buy
the book.
My wife needs a new pair ofshoes.
Speaker 2 (54:05):
Mama needs a new pair of shoes, wow.
Speaker 1 (54:08):
That's a moldy oldie.
Speaker 2 (54:11):
Oh, my goodness, David, I almost called you David
Reed.
I'm so sorry, david Wilcox,thank you so much for coming on
the show.
Guys, I can't thank you allenough for watching this.
Please go check out those books.
I will put the links in theshow notes for all of us and we
will see you next time.
Take care, guys.
She's the voice behind the viral comedy bold
commentary and truth-packedinterviews that cut through the
chaos.
Author.
Brand creator.
Proud conservative Christian,this is Elsa Kurt.
Welcome to the show that alwaysbrings bold faith, real truth
and no apologies.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Well, hey there, friends, we are here today with
an interview.
I'm super excited about this.
As you can see, I do not haveClay with me this time He'll be
back in the next one but todaythis is really fascinating for
me.
We're going to be talking aboutwhat it was like to guard one
of the most powerful andpolarizing Christian figures in
(00:37):
modern history.
Today's guest isn't justspilling the tea.
He is pouring it from a500-page kettle, so we're going
to buckle up for this one.
My guest today is going to beDavid Wilco tea.
He is pouring it from a500-page kettle, so we're going
to buckle up for this one.
My guest today is going to beDavid Wilcox.
He's a former California policeofficer turned personal
bodyguard to the late PatRobertson, and he's written a
bombshell memoir calledProtecting Pat Robertson
(01:00):
Confessions of a High-PricedBagman.
It is part memoir, part exposeand all truth, and he is taking
us behind the curtain of theChristian Broadcasting Network,
political campaigns and his ownpersonal conviction.
So I want to welcome you, david, to the show.
Thank you for being here.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Thank you, allison.
It's really an honor and apleasure to be here, absolutely
so.
I was so glad when a pleasureto be here, absolutely so.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
I was so glad when you reached out to me, connected
on good old LinkedIn over there, and you were so kind to reach
out and offer to come talk aboutthis, and off air, I was
telling David that I still callmyself every day.
I call myself a baby Christian.
I think I will live and die asa baby Christian.
I will never.
I will never know enough andthat's okay because it's you
(01:48):
know the journey and thelearning and you know just the
growth is completely worth itand so much of this is
absolutely new information to me.
So I want to start with youfrom the beginning and I'm going
to shut up and let you starttalking in a moment, I promise.
So you were a police officer inOceanside, california.
I would love to know yourjourney, what brought you from
(02:12):
there to Regent University andhow on earth did you become Pat
Robertson's personal bodyguard?
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Wow.
I was born and raised inOceanside, California.
It's a beach town right on thecoast about midway between San
Diego and Los Angeles.
It's my hometown.
It used to be a sleepy littlebeach community and one of the
strong aspects, I guess, isOceanside has Camp Pendleton
(02:39):
Marine Corps Base attached to itand I graduated high school
from Oceanside High.
I was a beach lifeguard inCalifornia for six years and
went away to college, got aswimming scholarship and came
back to Oceanside after Igraduated and I had a job that
(03:04):
summer, lifeguarding.
And a friend of mine told me hesaid uh, hey, he says the
Oceanside is looking for somenew police officers and they
said but it might be a littlelate for you because the
deadline came for theapplication.
So I called the city and theysaid well, show up, and if we
have some absentees we'll letyou take the test.
They did Uh and uh, I got hired.
The second out of about 400people Took a test and went to
(03:28):
work for Oceanside PD, had ashort term career.
I got injured on duty, got alot of my right knee missing a
lot of duty injury and retiredand retired and I fell in love
(03:50):
with a woman that I married andshe had always wanted to be a
producer for the 700 club tvshow.
And I thought, when she said,well, that's my goal, I want to
go to grad school at cbnuniversity, which is now regent
university, and I said, okay,well, let's go make your dream
come true.
So we passed up, we got married, we packed up, moved across the
country we arrived in August ofall times to arrive in Virginia
(04:13):
and it was like I'd beendropped into weather hell from
going from a beach community.
It was 72 degrees year-round.
Anyway, we moved into studenthousing at Regent University on
the campus of CBN and I was anew husband and I wanted to take
care of my young bride.
I'm going to go get a job.
And I went over to studentservices and turned in my resume
(04:36):
to a beautiful woman namedNancy Keith.
I'll never forget her.
She just was very receiving andwarm and she looked at my
resume.
I said I want to get a job andI'm going to grad school.
So I enrolled in grad school aswell and she said oh, you've
got police experience.
She said do you know PatRobertson?
I've seen him on TV.
(04:57):
Sure, I know who Pat Robertsonis.
And she said well, he'sthinking of running for
president and he's looking forbodyguards right now.
Would you be interested?
I said, well, I just have twoquestions what does it pay and
where do I start?
You know, and that was prettymuch it, I went over and talked
to the head of the securitydepartment, Jim Small, who's now
my best friend.
He was the best man at my reallegitimate wedding, my second
(05:20):
bride, but anyway, Jim, we met,he hired me, brought me on board
and then a few weeks I wasliving this duplicitous life
where I would go to grad schoolat night, take my grad school
classes, get up in the morningwith a suit and tie on and I'd
be shadowing Roberton throughoutthe day.
And the weirdest part of it wasweekends.
(05:44):
Friday nights would come andwe'd fly out somewhere across
the country and he'd be doingpre-campaign stuff.
He had started a group calledAmericans for Robertson, which
was his pack, and we would putall of these things under their
banner and we would fly out on aFriday night to God knows where
and he would have 13, 14 eventsto do over the course of a
(06:08):
weekend, and Sunday night we'dfly back into town and it was
back to grad school and it wasjust, it was a God thing.
And you know we talk about beinga baby Christian.
My philosophy is we're all babyChristians until we get called
home, so we're always learning.
We're never quite wise enough,but I had never, ever in my life
(06:29):
, really pursued a job.
I mean, I always kind ofbackdoored into a felon tool.
I wanted to work at Disneylandwhen I was in college.
I got hired there and justshowed up.
They hired me that day and mylife's been that way, you know,
and I'm kind of like thesepeople that can fall down in a
mud pit and wake up and have adiamond stuck in their teeth.
It's just.
(06:49):
God's been very benevolent tome and I think it's because I
just had a real horrible deficitof upbringing.
I did not have a father.
He left when I was nine monthsold.
My mom was quite dysfunctionaland so I pretty much raised
myself and, whether you believethis or not, God audibly spoke
(07:10):
to me when I was a teenager andhe said I know you've never had
a real father, but I'm going tobe your father and I'm going to
provide for you my heart and cry.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
You're going to make me cry.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
But he told me.
He says you've got to just bepatient.
My heart, I cry, you make mecry.
You've got to just be patientand I was, and he's taken care
of me.
I mean, I have done so manyincredible things.
I've been able to produceanimated cartoons for CBN that
have evangelized nearlyone-fifth of the world with the
Christmas story.
I've been past bodyguard, I'vetraveled all over, I've dined
(07:47):
with kings and princes andpresidents.
It's just been a phenomenallife.
But I trusted in him.
So that's kind of a convolutedanswer to your question, but
that's how I became thebodyguard for Pat and I
eventually took over the entiresecurity department and, as I
(08:08):
wrote in my book, it was reallya journey because I started off
really, really believing in whatPat Robertson was doing.
I mean I was willing to take abullet for the man.
I loved him.
He was doing miraculous things.
He had the social program.
When he, whenever a hurricanewould strike down in the south
(08:31):
uh past operation blessing, wasdown there within 24 hours with
hot meals and water.
And weeks before fema, you know, and that was a part of his
ministry handing out food, or Iwas giving.
I was donating to uh, the 2500club member.
I was giving 2500 a year.
(08:51):
I wasn't making a lot of moneybut I believed in what he was
doing.
He had literacy programs in theinner cities.
He was just doing wonderfulthings and it was.
I was proud.
I was so proud to be at hisside.
And then politics got involved.
Yeah, yeah, that marked thechange for you, right, right,
(09:13):
like politics has done with somany people's lives, it pollutes
them, it draws them, itperverts them, and I watched
this taking place very early onwith Americans for Robertson.
And then, when Pat made hisdecision and I'll tell you about
that if you want the definingmoment and I can pinpoint it,
(09:34):
and you could give me sodiumpedophile and my story wouldn't
change we were in the backseatof the company car.
We always drove Pat around.
He hated limousines.
He hated Jimmy and Tammy Bakerbecause they drove around a
white stretch limo all the time.
Right, he said I'll refuse toget in a limo if you bring me
one.
We drove him in a dark blueLincoln Town car.
(09:55):
Pat was a big guy, passed about6'3 and a half.
Really, I didn't realize he wasthat tall.
That's why he hired me.
I'm 6'5", he gets up behind me.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
There you go.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
We're sitting in the company car.
You're probably too young toremember the movies back in the
1940s or that era where the heroof the story had a little angel
and a devil sitting on hisshoulders and they'd be trying
to sway him over to the side.
That's exactly what it was like.
Pat was in the backseat of thecar, sitting in the middle.
On one side he had Rob Hartleywho was the money man for CBN.
(10:29):
He's like the vice president ofdevelopment.
He controlled the coffers.
And on the other side was a guynamed Mark Nuttall who was
Pat's campaign manager, and I'mnot going to go any further
because I don't want to get sued.
Anyway, I was sitting in theshotgun seat where I normally
sat and I was listening to thisconversation and Mark Nuttall
(10:51):
started off.
He said Pat, you've got to giveyour campaign Americans for
Robertson access to the threeand a half million names on the
CBN donor mailing list.
We don't have any money.
We need the money.
They got deep pockets.
Give it.
We need it, pat.
We need if you want to bepresident, we need it.
Shift over to the angel, robHartley.
(11:13):
Pat, you can't do that.
First, it's illegal.
You can't be a tax exemptministry status and give to a
political campaign like that.
Secondly, it's going to confusethe heck out of people.
You got these little old ladiesout there sending their $20 a
month, their own fixed income.
Suddenly they're going to getmailing from Americans for
Robertson.
(11:33):
Pat Robertson, get him in theWhite House.
A couple of things are going tohappen.
The $20 is going to have to bedecided.
Am I going to give it to CBNMinistry or am I going to give
it to CBN ministry or am I goingto give it to the political
campaign?
So that's going to fragment thedonor base.
The other people are going togo.
Pat Robertson running forpresident, church and state,
forget that guy.
I'm going to send my $20elsewhere.
(11:53):
You know, and it went back andforth, back and forth, back and
forth and I'm sitting there.
I'm thinking we are at thecrossroads, we are at a critical
point for this ministry.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
You remember thinking that in that moment, then even
yeah, oh God.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
I was just not.
Too many things make me anxious, but this really bothered me.
And then it came and there wasthis.
They finished talking and therewas about 30 seconds of
absolute silence.
And then I heard Pat's turn toMark, to the money man, rob
Hartley, and he said give themthe list.
And I got gut punched.
(12:31):
Now, fast forward.
You guys don't need to know allthe gruesome details, you can
get that in the book.
But here's the result of thatone ego-driven decision.
When Pat Robertson came backfrom politics, when he got his
Easter handed to him on what hecalled the primary super
(12:54):
primaries took place.
He knew he didn't have asnowball's chance.
He came back to CBN 630employees lost their jobs
because the money dropped off byover 40 percent.
That one decision, in fact.
Pat came back to cbn and for itwas.
(13:14):
It was decimated and it stillwas emerging and he took a legal
pad, which what he always usedto write on, and he walked
around the campus, the entirecampus, cbn, and he would stop
people in the hallway and hewould say what's your name, what
do you do?
Who do you report to?
And they tell one.
You know, my name is john doeand I work in direct mail
(13:36):
marketing and he'd make notesand then he would give the
papers to jim small, who was thehead of that security
department at the time, and hewould have all the people that
he needed laid off.
Now it was Jim's cheerful jobto walk around to all the
presidents and say Pat wantsthese people gone.
(13:56):
It was a critical blow.
And then it got worse becausehe got desperate.
And I can give you a a bushelfull of examples and it'll kind
of make you sick to your stomach.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
Yeah, so this had to be so difficult for you to
witness firsthand.
So you're seeing one side ofthings.
The public is seeing somethingcompletely different, right, I
mean things the public is seeingsomething completely different,
right, I mean, that had to havebeen one heck of a struggle to
just even just to reconcilethese two realities, or one's a
(14:33):
false reality.
The other one is reality yourrelationship with him.
Was it strictly bodyguardperson you're guarding?
Did you have, like, were youable to have conversations, like
could you address any of thesethings with him?
Or was there just that linebetween you two that you just
(14:54):
simply couldn't cross over?
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Yeah, that's a great question.
Pat knew thousands andthousands and thousands of
people and I can tell you pointblank, he did not have a best
friend that he could call in acrisis.
I wasn't it, don't get me wrong.
Right, he used me, and beforeme Jim small, to kind of be his
(15:19):
hit man.
If he wanted somebodyterminated, he'd say I want to,
I want you to go.
That guy's gone, get rid of himnow.
And you'd have to go deliverthe bad news.
He'd have you run errands forhim.
I've got dozens and dozens ofanecdotes in there.
We had a student housing area.
(15:41):
There was word that one of thelaw students was beating his
wife down there.
So Pat grabbed me in thehallway one day and said David,
just grab a couple of guys fromyour goon squad and go over
there, find that guy and takehim out back and rough him up a
little bit.
And I said Pat, are you goingto post my bail when he has me
arrested for assault and battery?
He said we don't know how totake care of it.
Just go take care of that.
(16:02):
That's the kind of thing youknow.
He's equipped Ron McGraw onstreet vengeance, the thing that
I, if I, could tell one set ofstories that'll really paint the
picture.
He, he, people are criticizingme for writing the book because
they all believe what they sawfor 60 minutes five days a week
(16:24):
on the 700 Club Fatherly PatRobertson leaning into the
camera, pretty with me now whenthat red light went off.
He was a tyrant.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Was that always or just when the political side
came in?
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Here's the crux of the entire book that I wrote
about that.
When he got back to CBN and sawwhat had happened without him
being there 47 percent drop inthe money, dropping the money he
had an epiphany.
He realized oh my God, what'sgoing to happen when I leave
(17:05):
this earth to my ministry?
There's no way to fill in.
And so he panicked and hedecided to go after what I call
these get rich quick schemes.
And I used to tell Pat and Ispoke very honestly with him
because I didn't care if hefired me or not, I will get
another job, you know, and Icarried a gun.
(17:26):
So but I tell him, pat, why areyou doing this stuff?
There's an old saying you dancewith the one that brought you
to the dance.
You didn't get where you aredoing multi-level marketing and
get rich quick scheme.
You got here because ofministry.
He ministered to people and hejust kind of blew me off.
You know he just he was focused.
He started getting involvedalso with direct mail, a
(17:52):
multi-level marketing.
He started a company calledbenefits plus.
They were selling coupon booksand he was going around the
country telling people they canmake a 10, $15,000 a month
selling coupon books.
And he was going around thecountry telling people they
could make $10,000, $15,000 amonth selling this thing For the
people that he hired to run it.
I got spidey sense going on andI was like these guys are
creepy.
(18:13):
I told him.
I said I'm going to runbackground checks on them, pat,
because they're in a fiduciarycapacity for you.
And he's like and they love theLord, they're going to tell me
they're going to make a lot ofmoney.
They were all corruptBankruptcies, fraud,
embezzlement and he gave themthe keys to the kingdom.
They were off property that day.
He got involved with it.
(18:33):
People can Google this.
Check out a guy named MobutuSeseseko.
He was the dictator of Zaire.
We went over to Zaire and Patkind of deal to do diamond
mining in Zaire and he set up aprivate company and Mobutu was a
(18:55):
butcher.
He killed tens of thousands ofhis own people and I thought
what's this minister, thisBaptist minister, doing, you
know, having his side tied toPresident Mobutu?
And then he got involved with aguy named Charles Taylor, the
dictator of Liberia.
Taylor was eventually tried bythe world court for crimes
(19:17):
against humanity.
He wiped out tens of thousandsof his own people and Pat had a
gold mining operation with him.
And here's where the duplicitycame in.
It's very graphic.
Pat had this group calledOperation Blessing.
That used to do really goodwork.
I mentioned it before.
They'd go down take care ofhurricane victims.
(19:37):
Johnny on the spot.
Great, great operation.
Pat gets on the spot.
Great, great operation.
Pat gets on the air.
And there was a migration.
I can't give you the exactdates, but there were nearly a
million refugees coming intoZaire, coming into Zaire, and I
(20:01):
can't remember the specificdetails, but they were fleeing
by the truckloads getting awayfrom I want to say it was
Liberia, but anyway, it's notimportant.
They were refugees, they werescared, they were living in
these dirt fields out in Zaireand they had a cholera outbreak
(20:26):
and 10s and 20s and 30s everyday were starting to die of
cholera.
So pat had this thing he hadset up years prior called the
flying hospital.
It was an l-1011 jet equippedstate-of-the-art operating rooms
, doctor's treatment rooms.
They were flying.
They were supposed to flyaround the world and do all
these things.
Well, one thing with PatRobertson it was always ready,
fire aim.
(20:46):
He never did his homework.
It was like great cause, let'sdo it.
He never checked it out.
The plane couldn't land in like30, 40% of the airports in the
world.
It was a huge plane.
So he has this plane, theflying hospital, and he comes on
the air and he's and he'sleaning into the camera.
He says folks, we've got thesepictures of these people dying
(21:07):
in the fields of zaire, they'vegot cholera.
Here's my vision.
I want to get a hundred doctors, together with my flying
hospital, send drugs the workersover there and we're going to
save the lives of hundreds ofthousands of people.
I need your money now forOperation Blessing and the money
started coming in.
It looked like a big success.
Well, it was a diversion.
(21:29):
About maybe 3% of the moneywent to its cause.
They sent aspirin and Tylenol.
They sent a handful of workersand Doctors Without Borders were
there and there's a film out.
I don't have the name of thevideo, you can google it, but,
um, they said, yes, cbn hadpeople over there.
They were running around, abouta dozen of them throwing bibles
(21:50):
at people and treating themwith aspirin.
We don't treat cholera withaspirin, okay, so where did the
rest of the money go?
Coincidentally, pat robertson'suh, diamond gold mining
operation.
Uh, one of the money go.
Coincidentally, pat Robertson'sdiamond gold mining operation.
One of the companies that heset up he owned 100% of it was
nearby.
They paved the landing field sothese planes that he bought
(22:12):
could get in.
There's a photo in the book ofthem offloading a diamond mining
dredge for Pat's diamond miningoperation, all paid for by
Operation Blessing and therefugee cholera money.
And people were in shock.
They don't believe me.
I was like track it down, it'sthere.
(22:33):
So he started raising this moneyunder false pretenses and then
he starts doing gosh, what else?
Oh, he decided he was going totake over uh oil refining in
california.
During their gas issues thisguy pitched a deal to him.
He says there's a there's a uhrefining uh facility in long
(22:53):
beach, california.
You can pick it up for pennieson the dollar and we can put
ships off the coast of longbeach and pipe the oil in and
you can refine it and makegasoline.
You'll be wealthy beyondcompare.
Let's do it.
They pumped in millions andmillions and millions of dollars
of ministry money.
Never created one drop ofgasoline, never refined one drop
of oil.
The refinery was under EPArestriction.
(23:17):
It had so many EPA violationsit would have cost a zillion
dollars to get it up and runningproperly.
He just never did the homework,he just always shot from the
hip.
The book's full of these things.
The book is transitional.
It was Pat Robertson, the goodguy doing great ministry work
and then politics, pollution,ethics have been skewed winner
(23:39):
at any cost.
And he starts coming up andsays I got to do something to
bring constant long-term moneyin to pay to run the ministry
when I'm gone and none of itworked and I think it's because
God went.
I'm taking my blessing off you,my son, because you're not
listening to me and I, I got toa point where I was just like I
(24:00):
can't tolerate this anymore.
I can't keep this guy alive anddo his bidding for him when
he's corrupt.
I don't like that.
So I know I'm long-winded, butit's a very convoluted thing
that he did and people say, well, that's Pat Robertson, he's the
700 Club guy.
He prays for people.
Sure, he does, sure he doesthat feeds the machine.
(24:24):
That's the whole grail.
Was that tv show?
And, um, you know, the rest ishistory.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
He imploded well, you , um, I wouldn't call you
long-winded, I would call you,uh, preemptively answering my
questions.
You know, I'm looking as as'rechatting, I'm looking at my
questions like, yep, he'sanswering that.
Yep, you are making my job soeasy.
You know, you gotta make mework a little bit.
Okay, fire away.
I'm kidding.
Well, so you know, I'mlistening to all this and
(24:52):
throughout it I'm thinking howdid they let you ever publish
this book?
Because this is, you know, this, this book, because this is,
you know, this is very damning,provable, uh, information, and
you know, obviously tarnishesthat that image of this beloved,
uh figure, um, you had to havehad tremendous opposition to
(25:14):
this.
Or did they just know that youhave the receipts and there's
nothing they can do about it?
Or did they try?
Speaker 1 (25:21):
well, when I, when I I worked for pat originally for
a period of time, I left for avery brief window of time to go
back to california.
I have my master's degree inanimation and film and I I
created an animated film.
It won a student academy award.
It was very irreverent.
I'll send you a copy of it.
And uh, and when I came back Itook over.
(25:44):
I built an animation studio forcbn.
Because I broke my proposal.
I said you got everything hereyou need to produce animation,
except the studio.
Give me some money and I'llbuild it for you.
And then we that's we ended updoing these videos that have
evangelized the world.
But then I came back to CBN.
That's when I was full-timebodyguard and they stumbled.
(26:06):
Remember I told you Pat wasready, fire aim.
He said brother, I need you to.
He said Jim Small says you'rethe only guy in the property
that can keep me alive.
Will you take over for him?
I said sure, I'd be honored to.
Didn't ask me to sign an NDA.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
I was wondering about that.
That was one of the firstthings.
I'm like where's the NDA?
How did he?
How did they not do an NDA?
That's crazy.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Because nobody everybody's scared to death of
Pat Robertson at CBN.
He used to walk down the hall.
Pat would always wear cowboyboots and he walked down.
The third floor hall was calleduh, vice president's row.
All the vps have their officesup there and you hear them clomp
, clomp, clomp and it was likethe angel of death was coming
down the hallway.
(26:50):
The vice presidents would runinto their offices and close
their door and sprinkleimaginary blood over the
doorpost, hoping the angel ofpat would pass and, you know,
kill him.
You know, and and so he.
So nobody would ever go to Patand say, pat, you screwed up,
you didn't get an NDA from David, you need to go get that.
You know, nobody had thebackbone to do it, so I rode the
(27:14):
train.
I figured, hey, man, all betsare off, I can do whatever I
want because they've got nolegal recourse.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
And yeah, I've got a lot of stuff in there, you know
did you get in your personallife, friends, family, anyone,
did anyone give you pushback onwriting?
Because I mean, it's, you know,it's a tell-all, basically it's
a memoir, it's a tell-all, it's, you know, very exposing of of
and that can, let's be realistic, you know, even in our nice
(27:44):
pretty Christian world thatcould potentially bring threats
and all kinds of negativeattention on you and your family
.
You know, I'm thinking all ofthe things, retaliatory actions,
I mean so much could have beenand maybe was brought upon you
and yours Was anybody tellingyou and I saw that reaction.
(28:05):
So there must be a yes to that.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Oh, yeah, it was a big yes when I first posted it.
I think I put it on Facebookand I'm not a real social media
guy, I'm kind of private in thatregard.
I put it on Facebook and therewere a lot of CBN people on
there and boy I mean, thefloodgates opened.
I got a couple of messages fromsome people that I really loved
(28:27):
and respected.
One guy had actually worked forme in security He'd been a
security aide and he says howdare you condemn Brother Pat?
I took him to the airport fiveor six times and he was nothing
more than a saint and agentleman.
I said Jerry.
(28:48):
I said I venture to say I spentmore time with that man in one
day than you did with yourentire career at CBN, so you've
got no room to criticize me.
And then I had one said that Iwas they were likening me to
Satan and I was a betrayer and Iwas a Judas.
And I said they said he's donewonderful things through his
(29:13):
ministry in the 700th.
I said, oh, I agree with you.
I said, 100%, he's done somewonderful things.
He's also done some reallyshady things.
And I said why don't you followup with the 640 people who lost
, who were coworkers of yoursthat lost their jobs because he
decided to go into politics.
Why don't you see how they feelabout Pat Robertson?
(29:33):
And you know it's fine, I'm abig boy.
I mean, when I was a cop I hadtwo motorcycle gang members put
a $25,000 hit on me to kill mebecause I sent them to prison,
and so I'm no stranger to that.
I've lived a good life.
You want me?
Come and get me.
I'm here, I know where I'mgoing.
But people are visceral.
(29:56):
They either love the guy orhate the guy.
There's no middle ground withhim.
He's very polarizing, but yeah,I mean love the guy or hate the
guy.
There's no middle ground withhim.
He's very polarizing, but yeah,I mean people entitled their
opinion.
But I've got all the tangibleevidence.
I was there.
I mean I, I did a lot of thisstuff.
I delivered a lot of hismessages and I took him
everywhere you know for thatperiod of time, and it's it's
(30:16):
all the truth.
It's in book.
That's why it's so long.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
What would you say your biggest hope is Like what
would your goal, what would yousay your goal was for publishing
that book?
Is it just?
I know?
You know, probably you're aseeker of truth, you know.
Is it just for the sake oftruth?
Is it for any hope of reform inthe upper echelon of the
(30:43):
Christian community,particularly you know, these
broadcasting companies and ifthey're running for political
office or any of those things, Ijust you know we've talked off
air about accountability and youknow I'm such a huge fan of
accountability, even when I'mthe one that has to take it for
something.
You know I just truly lovetruth, you know facts and all of
(31:03):
that.
Does that kind of resonate withyou?
Speaker 1 (31:06):
Yeah, that's a great question.
In fact, we're in sync today onquestions.
I was thinking about somethingcomparable, you might ask.
My big takeaway from the bookand I think I mentioned it in
there pretty well is God's a bigGod.
He's everywhere.
And those of you who go out andjoin a church and I'm not
(31:29):
against church, I was a bigchurchgoer.
I was a junior warden in theEpiscopal Church here in
Chesapeake, virginia, for manyyears.
I go to church religiously, nopun intended, but, um, the
takeaway I want you to get isdon't put your faith in the
religious leaders.
You don't need them to haveworship time with god.
(31:53):
You don't need them to pointtheir bony finger.
I I I mentioned, I think, inthe book about these pastors who
get up there and they put theirbony finger at you.
You're looking at porn andyou're a sinner.
You know, at the time I wrotethat book, 60 plus percent of
all pastors were activelyinvolved in online pornography,
(32:14):
so it's kind of the pot callingthe kettle black.
So men are corruptible.
Men are fallible.
Men are pastors.
Women are pastors.
They're corruptible.
Men are fallible.
Men are pastors.
Women are pastors.
They're corruptible.
Okay, don't put too much stockin them.
Okay, they're not God Jr.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
They don't.
I think that is one of thebiggest.
From what I understand, that'slike one of the biggest reasons
people walk away and havebitterness towards the church.
It's not because of God, it'snot because of Jesus, it's
because of people disappointingand failing them.
And every time I hear that it'slike a little knife in my heart
because you know, it tells meand I don't mean this, you know
(32:54):
hard, but I have to say thenthat must mean that your faith
was in man and not in God.
Right?
Like if you're getting pushedaway from your faith, from what
you claim to believe in, whichis God, and you walk away and
turn your back on God because ofwhat people do and have done
(33:14):
and say, then your faith wasn'tin the right place, right?
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Well, faith to me is an individual thing, it's a
one-key holder thing.
My faith is my faith.
And if your faith getsstrengthened by going and
sitting in church for two hoursevery Sunday and you're getting
something from the message andit's changing your life for the
better, god, by all means go,but don't think that it's the
(33:41):
end.
All to be all, be prepared, beguarded, you know, be wise when
you listen to the word.
You know, pat, like I say, hewas doing some great things and
they all proved out.
They were above board.
They were very legitimate,legal, ethical, you know.
And then politics came to thatchange and then he was doing
(34:03):
these things that were unethicaland you had to weigh it against
.
What's the truth here?
Is what he's doing legal?
Is he obeying the law?
Is it spiritual, is itscriptural?
And if not, you need toreassess your thing.
Maybe go find another church.
Don't sit there and justblindly go along.
You know who's doing goodthrough that.
(34:26):
That's one of the criticisms,I'll probably offend a bunch of
people.
So just line up.
When you come to get me theCatholic Church, you have to
confess your sins to a thirdparty, to God.
Where is that coming from,right, you know?
And then you look at some ofthe people that are receiving
(34:47):
the confession.
Catholic Church doesn't have areal stellar reputation, so it's
like I don't think this isGod's here.
I talk to him every morning inthe shower because I got water
pouring down on me.
I'm cushioned from the outside.
I can't pouring down on me, I'mpushing from the outside.
I can't hear anything and I'mjust crying.
I'm telling him thank you for awonderful life.
Could you give me some morefavor this week?
(35:09):
You know, whatever it is, it'sjust speaking from my heart.
Not to be long, don't have tobe on my knees, you know.
But that's the message I'mtrying to get to people is, if
pat robertson, who built a megaministry, is ministered to
people all over the worldthrough the 700th of TV show,
changed lives.
I mean, my ex-wife used to dotestimonials.
(35:29):
I see these changes in people'slives.
If he can do that and then hecan go off straight, off course,
who's to say your pastor can'tRight, just be smart.
You don't need to do anythingovert.
Hey, this guy wrote a bookabout pat robertson.
You're trying to tell me thesame things he did, so I'm
(35:49):
leaving your turn.
Come on.
Yeah, we're not thatrudimentary.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
Just be wise and in your, in your mind, in your
experience with pat robertsonand and just that whole world,
seeing it from the other side,seeing it from the inside,
really, with specific regard toPat Robertson, can you look at
(36:14):
his life, his contributions andsay does one cancel out the
other, or can the two exist inthe same space, all of the good
and all of the bad, or does thebad cancel the good?
How do you reconcile it in yourmind?
I think that's probably areally hard thing for people to
(36:36):
do.
I have a personal secondhand, Iguess experience with a pastor
or church.
It was like the first one thatI kind of vicariously started my
true faith journey on and thereended up being, you know, drama
.
Of course that's always thething that happens, right, that
(36:57):
pushes you away, right, thatpushes you away.
And for me personally, I'm ableto look at those sermons and or
remember those sermons and thelessons that I learned from them
and still get that same joy,because it was the message, not
the messenger, I guess, in a way.
So I'm wondering if you're ableto do that with him, or is it
(37:20):
just too much?
Speaker 1 (37:25):
So I'm wondering if you're able to do that with him,
or is it just too much?
Wow, that's a mind-nod rightthere.
No, he really is.
I'm spinning around, he is.
I love Pat as a human being.
I saw a great many humanitarianefforts by him, personal
humanitarian efforts.
I watched him.
(37:45):
We had a four producer at the700 Club lost her husband in a
rock climbing accident and Patended up buying her a house and
take care of her.
She worked for him for years.
Just a benevolent thing, nofanfare, no press release, no,
nothing.
You know He'd do a lot of thosethings.
(38:07):
But then he'd also go to theother extreme too, and he was a
very complex man.
I don't think I'm in anyposition to really judge whether
his net worth is good or bad.
He did what he did.
I know the motives behind itwere to take care of his
(38:27):
ministry.
He wanted to find a revenuestream that would last longer
than he would and give it a hook.
There are studies out that showthat personality-driven
ministries once the personalityleaves the ministries, tend to
implode.
It's hard to find another PatRobertson to fill in.
So I think Pat showed his humanside much more in his later
(38:54):
years because he was trying totake care of his baby, his
ministry, which was where he gothis start, that's his
birthright.
He was trying to salvage that.
I think he realized he madesome mistakes going into
politics.
He saw the dark side of it, butI think he just flat out ran
out of time.
(39:15):
Pat tended to draw counsel fromthose he shouldn't have gotten
counsel from.
If you and maybe I can end withthis, one day we were walking
along and he said he told mehe'd always tell me.
He said I just made so-and-so avice president or whatever you
know.
And I stopped.
I said you know what, pat?
(39:36):
I said Charles Manson coulddrive up in a Mercedes Benz, get
out wearing a $1,000 suit andsport in a Rolex and you'd make
him a vice president at CBN.
That's how bad your discernmentis.
He went I'm not that bad, am I?
I said oh yeah, you are.
I said you've got some realclowns working for you and we
(39:58):
just kind of went on his merryway.
He tended to choose people thatlook good in the role, but pat
was a controller.
He wanted control everythingand he put people in positions
that were disposable.
In case things planned didn'twork out.
He would fire that guy and getanother guy in.
People that ended up at RegentUniversity.
(40:18):
I used to joke that theiroffice chair was over a trap
door.
I mean he'd tell them to dosomething that didn't work out.
Oh, you're out, let's getanother prank.
So he didn't take accountabilityfor his failures.
He took accountability for thesuccesses, but he strictly just
ran out of time.
He was trying to take care ofhis baby the ministry.
(40:40):
I don't blame him, I don't hatehim.
I just think people don't evenknow the truth.
And you know, that's what I putin the book and Jim Spall
helped me write some of it.
He was with Pat before I was.
Tim gave me my job.
We sometimes get together.
We see him every Christmas downin Ocalaala.
We sit there, we talk in patrobertson voices to each other
(41:00):
because he'd get really high.
Brother, what are you doing?
You know that kind of a thing.
You know our wives sit thereand go.
You guys are just.
But.
But he was a dynamic guy, buthe just made some bad decisions
and he didn't listen to thefather, his father.
He listened to his lackeys andget him right in the keystone.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
There's really so much, you know, underlying
valuable message throughout thiswhole story, throughout your
whole book.
Really, you know the falseidols, the, you know having that
discernment and going directlyto God instead of you know
middlemen all the time, which weall tend to do.
And then it is natural, youknow human nature right to start
(41:47):
putting people on pedestals andall of that.
And you know, and I think it'sreally valuable for any
Christian, you know, new orseasoned, whatever you want to
call it, to remember thosethings and you know so it's kind
of.
Also, you know we called it amemoir, we called it an expose,
we called the book, all thesethings, but it's really a lot of
(42:10):
reminders to use discernmentand to just not put people on
those pedestals and just betruth seekers.
Really, you know and acceptthat, even when the truth isn't
pretty and it isn't what we wantto hear.
You know, I think we as peoplehave a tendency to not want to
(42:31):
hear things that don't alignwith what we want to think,
right, you know that's rampantin our culture.
You know, if it doesn't soundpretty, if it doesn't align with
what I think, right, you knowthat's rampant in our culture.
You know, if it doesn't soundpretty, if it doesn't align with
what I think, then it can't betrue or that person must be a
bad person.
And you know, the truth reallyis that there's a lot of gray
areas and I really love how youkind of close that out with
(42:53):
acknowledging the good and thebad, the truth and the myth and
all of the things that go withit.
And I just think it's reallyreally fair to be honest with
you and anyone who's watchingand you know is coming into this
defensively.
You know, in that must protectthe legacy of Pat Robertson.
This is, it's fair, it's fairand it's honest and you know,
(43:16):
and a personal account of yourexperience through that.
I would be very remiss if Idon't mention this.
This is not your only book outon that.
We're going to put up the coverhere.
You also wrote this book aboutRalph Reed and the Christian
Coalition, so I want everyoneI'm going to Well, I guess this
means I'm just going to have tohave you come back on again so
we could talk specifically aboutthat one.
(43:37):
Don't throw me into the briarpatch.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
Don't throw me into the briar patch.
Yeah, I'd love to.
Yeah, well, the tie-in justquickly is one of the things Pat
did back when I was there, whenI just had come on.
He formed the ChristianCoalition and for those of you
who are old enough to remember,they were a political juggernaut
In fact they, when theyimploded, pat kind of took the,
(44:00):
the skeletal machine andconverted it into his political
action committee for Americans,for Robert.
When he put this guy, ralphReed, in charge of the Christian
coalition and I was therewatching Ralph Reed I told my
wife at the time.
I said, yeah, I met this guy,ralph Reed.
I said I was with him for likefive minutes today and I just
(44:22):
wanted to go get steamed cleanto make sure I had my wallet
with me.
I mean just a snake oil.
Anyway, long story short, ralphReed should have gone to prison
.
I mean I got evidence in thatbook that when I mean in fact
his associates, just quickly,the associates that he worked
(44:43):
with after he left the ChristianCoalition, all went to prison
for a time, ralph.
Reed had some secret powerbrokers in the White House and
in politics that got hissubpoena lifted and he got to go
scot-free and the guy'scommitted a felony.
He's laundered money.
I've got all the evidence inhis book.
So, yeah, I'd really love totalk to you about that and I
(45:06):
would love it if Ralph reads tome because I'd love to have
discovery and go back and checkhis tax return.
That would make millions off ofexploiting.
He was telling people at theChristian Coalition that
gambling was a cancer.
It was turning wives intowidows and children into orphans
.
People were throwing money athim to go fight gambling.
(45:26):
Fast forward, a few years laterhe's secretly promoting and
protecting Indian gamblingcasinos in Louisiana.
He got paid about $3 millionfor that little clandestine
thing, but nobody knew aboutthat.
They will when they get thebook.
Yes, oh, there's, like we saidin the beginning, lots of tea.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, soanyway, but anyway, I get
(45:47):
passionate about it because it'sjust so full of nuggets about
who he really is and what hereally did.
So, anyway, but you've beenjust wonderful, um, and so
welcoming and you know youhaven't treated me like I had a
dead fish in my pocket like mostpeople do.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
No you know, like I told you from the beginning, I'm
coming in with, you know, anopen heart and no preconceived
notions on anything, on anything.
So you know, I'm simplyreceptive to hearing the
different perspectives, thedifferent experiences throughout
this.
And you know, and as I've beendoing my thing and being open
(46:27):
about my Christian journey which, to be perfectly honest, has
been amazing and wonderful, andyou know I see why people say
that there is a lot that comeswith it that is not so good.
Of course, when you're publicabout it, you open yourself up
to just very negative peoplesaying negative things, and for
(46:48):
me that's a great experiencebecause it's all things that
show me not only how strong myfaith is, but how strong I am
just as a human to not beaffected and bothered by those
things, how strong I am just asa human to not be affected and
bothered by those things.
And the biggest reason for thatis because I know who I belong
to and I know whose opinion ofme matters the most.
So when people on the Internetare saying much like you,
(47:12):
receiving the negativity, yeah,you just don't factor into my
life.
Unless you're, unless you're,the big guy, your opinion just
does not help the way that youthink it does right.
Speaker 1 (47:22):
Well, let me leave you with this partying
assessment.
I read people pretty good atcop training and bodyguarding.
You are very bold in professingthat you're a new Christian.
Think about a field.
You're a fresh field offurrowed ground.
There's a lot of ability to getthings planted in there.
(47:42):
Your faith is strong.
It hasn't been bombarded from abunch of weeds and briars and
other things.
It's at the most powerful stageright now for you and you need
to guard that.
Be patient.
I want to learn more.
I'm going to go seek this guybecause he's been a pastor for
30 years.
He knows all the answers.
Speaker 2 (48:03):
You read me well, by the way.
I want to know everything.
Five minutes ago.
Speaker 1 (48:08):
Sure, yeah, but be patient and digest it.
Okay, you go ahead and have awonderful meal, digest it.
If it doesn't suit you, get ridof it.
You're well-fertilized, fertileground, ripe for planting, and
(48:28):
the crops will be abundant inthe future, but you've got to
wait.
You've got to wait and seek God.
Don't go to man for yourcritical answers.
It's wise to get counsel.
It's wise to get counsel.
It's wise to get a second,third opinion.
I go to my wife all the time.
Am I being a dope for doingthis?
Yeah, you are.
Okay, she's wise.
(48:48):
Okay, but don't be anxious tobe super Christian.
Okay, because it's a loveaffair with you and the creator.
And just be patient.
It'll come, but just be guarded.
That's what I'm trying to tellpeople.
If the power of God isinconsiderable and fall, do you
think you can't do Right?
Right?
Speaker 2 (49:08):
Yeah, it's.
Actually I do find hearing thesetypes of things it is hard, and
I think it's hard for anyChristian to hear that just
wants to be so good in theirfaith and it knocks you sideways
a little bit because exactlythat like if what you know, we
in our minds have as like thepinnacles of faith and
(49:29):
connection with God, if theystumble, you know, and they're
so much more Christian than weare, you know.
So, yeah, that's, yes, those aredefinitely things that come
into my mind and I'm sure otherChristians' minds too that you
know how easy it is to fall, andI probably I guess my thought
on that would be that that'sactually a really good thing to
(49:51):
know because, like you said,it'll keep me on my guard, it'll
keep others on their guard aswell, you know, guard our hearts
and minds in Christ alone.
And yeah, and I want to tellyou something as well, if I may,
one of the first Bible versesthat I learned is maybe it's
kind of an odd one, but there'sa whole little story that goes
(50:11):
with it.
It's I will summarize it soquickly when I, when I really
opened my heart and said I thinkthis is the direction I belong
in, but I'm not sure and I askedGod, you know, give me a sign.
You know that's what we all say.
Right, give me a sign, god.
And literally the next day, apostcard came in the mail with 1
Peter 4.10.
Each of you should use whatevergifts you have received in
(50:32):
order to serve others asfaithful stewards of God's grace
.
And I went, oh, my stewards ofGod's grace.
And I went, oh my.
And as we were talking, thevery beginning, and you were
telling your story of how thingsjust fall into your lap and
they just happen, and that wasreally the first thing that
(50:52):
popped into my mind 1 Peter 4.10for you as well.
And just what a blessing thatis to use whatever gifts we have
received to serve God, you know, and to serve others.
So I love it.
Speaker 1 (51:00):
The other.
One other thing that's justcritical is pray without ceasing
.
But you got to understandsometimes the answer to the
prayer is no, it's not silencefrom God.
No, that's not the best for youright now.
If you think about all thedominoes that God's got to line
up for your prayer to take place, right now might be the time
(51:23):
for it to come to fruition.
So you've got to be patient.
Keep your ear peeled for hisvoice.
And he doesn't speak to you ina klaxon horn.
He speaks to you in a stillsmall voice.
If you're hearing things likeCharlie Brown's teacher, that's
not God.
Still small voice In the quiet.
(51:45):
2, 3 in the morning, you maywake up, get a little nugget
placed in your head.
That's the way he operates.
He's not necessarily standingup there with all the robes and
the vestments.
And this was for you.
This was for you.
That's theatrics, that'sBroadway, that's showbiz.
Okay, religion and arelationship with God is very
(52:06):
rudimentary.
It's a very simple connectionand that's what we have to rely
on for the truth.
Speaker 2 (52:12):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (52:14):
And now we're in AI time.
We're seeing all these thingson there.
Is that real Did?
Speaker 2 (52:20):
that kid, just levitate over that building.
You know what was that?
Discernment is getting harderand harder, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (52:25):
Be guarded.
Be guarded, elsa.
You've been a good light.
Speaker 2 (52:29):
Thank you, so have you.
What a wonderful and what a waywe just kind of closed out with
church a little bit right there.
I can't thank you enough forcoming out.
Please tell everyone where theycan find your books and your
website any of the things thatthey can find you and your work.
Speaker 1 (52:44):
Well, the books are both available on Amazon and
we're major booksellers.
It's called the Protecting PatRobertson Confessions of the
High Christ Bagman.
That's a whole nother story.
That's in the book and why Irefer to myself as a bagman.
And then the other book isTrial of the Devil Incarnate,
ralph Reed, god's Flim Flam man.
(53:04):
They're both available.
Now They've been available.
You can get them also throughmy website, bigfatcatbookscom,
and I have a site called theFlim Flam Chronicles and it
doesn't cost you a thing.
Go there.
And I did a series of abouteight to 10 minute narratives
(53:25):
about Pat Robertson and aboutRalph Reed.
If you want a shot, go to theFlim Flam Chronicles and check
out the Ralph Reed narrativesand you're going to think I'm
either the biggest liar on theplanet or he's the biggest
duplicitous person on the planet.
In fact, the um, oh, gosh, thehoney.
Uh, huffington post labeled himas the monumental hypocrite of
(53:50):
our time, ralph reed, the formerhead of the christian coalition
.
All the answers are there.
Uh, check it out.
It doesn't cost you a thing.
Just go there, just try to getthe truth out and you could buy
the book.
My wife needs a new pair ofshoes.
Speaker 2 (54:05):
Mama needs a new pair of shoes, wow.
Speaker 1 (54:08):
That's a moldy oldie.
Speaker 2 (54:11):
Oh, my goodness, David, I almost called you David
Reed.
I'm so sorry, david Wilcox,thank you so much for coming on
the show.
Guys, I can't thank you allenough for watching this.
Please go check out those books.
I will put the links in theshow notes for all of us and we
will see you next time.
Take care, guys.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Cardiac Cowboys
The heart was always off-limits to surgeons. Cutting into it spelled instant death for the patient. That is, until a ragtag group of doctors scattered across the Midwest and Texas decided to throw out the rule book. Working in makeshift laboratories and home garages, using medical devices made from scavenged machine parts and beer tubes, these men and women invented the field of open heart surgery. Odds are, someone you know is alive because of them. So why has history left them behind? Presented by Chris Pine, CARDIAC COWBOYS tells the gripping true story behind the birth of heart surgery, and the young, Greatest Generation doctors who made it happen. For years, they competed and feuded, racing to be the first, the best, and the most prolific. Some appeared on the cover of Time Magazine, operated on kings and advised presidents. Others ended up disgraced, penniless, and convicted of felonies. Together, they ignited a revolution in medicine, and changed the world.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.