December 22, 2025 • 49 mins
What happens when a daughter writes two letters a week to her mom for ten years while breaking into one of the most male-dominated industries in America? You get a time-capsule memoir packed with real deals, real setbacks, and real strategies that still work. We’re joined by Dr. Mary Mitchell, who rose through the 1980s pulp, paper, and timber world negotiating 60 contracts at a time, feeding mills through strikes and shortages, and outmaneuvering intimidation with a calm, data-first style.
Mary walks us through the volatile market forces that defined the decade—interest rates near 20 percent, housing crashes, export booms—and how she turned chaos into leverage with scenario planning, meticulous market intel, and relentless relationship-building with everyone from tug dispatchers to scale houses. She unpacks her “plain vanilla” negotiation approach: ignore the theatrics, return to price and inventory, anticipate failure modes, and have ten counters ready when they hit. The stories are vivid: rescuing a mill with hog fuel dug from a forgotten valley, barging sawdust into San Francisco, and earning a rival’s backhanded compliment for never leaving a dime on the table.
We also talk about boundaries and resilience. Mary shares how she handled inappropriate advances by steering back to business, why preparation disarms bullies, and how confidence grows when you ask the “dumb” questions first. For students of negotiation, supply chain pros, and women navigating male-heavy fields, this conversation doubles as a practical playbook and a compelling narrative. Her letters are now a memoir, and her methods are as relevant to today’s complex markets as they were when strikes shut down mills and trucks lined the yard.
Grab the book on Kindle now, with paperback, hardback, and audio on the way. If the conversation helped you think sharper or negotiate braver, follow the show, share this episode with a friend, and leave a quick review so more listeners can find it.
Elsa's AMAZON STORE
Elsa's FAITH & FREEDOM MERCH STORE
Elsa's BOOKS
Elsa Kurt: You may know her for her uncanny, viral Kamala Harris impressions & conservative comedy skits, but she’s also a lifelong Patriot & longtime Police Wife. She has channeled her fierce love and passion for God, family, country, and those who serve as the creator, Executive Producer & Host of the Elsa Kurt Show with Clay Novak. Her show discusses today’s topics & news from a middle class/blue collar family & conservative perspective. The vocal LEOW’s career began as a multi-genre author who has penned over 25 books, including twelve contemporary women’s novels.
Clay Novak: Clay Novak was commissioned in 1995 as a Second Lieutenant of Infantry and served as an officer for twenty four years in Mechanized Infantry, Airborne Infantry, and Cavalry units . He retired as a Lieutenant Colonel in 2019. Clay is a graduate of the U.S. Army Ranger School and is a Master Rated Parachutist, serving for more th...
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Every conversation tells a story, and the best ones
(00:02):
begin with honesty, courage, anda little curiosity.
That's where Elsa Kurt comes in.
She's an author, podcaster, andindependent media personality,
and this is where she bringsreal life to the table.
Authors, thinkers, creators,leaders, everyday folks with
extraordinary journeys.
We sit down, we dig in, and wetalk about what matters, what's
(00:26):
messy, what's beautiful, andwhat just might inspire you to
look at the world a littledifferently.
So pour a cup of something good.
Settle back and join me.
This is Elsa Kurt Interviews,where truth has a stake and
everyone's welcome.
SPEAKER_01 (00:42):
Well, hey friends.
Welcome back for another week ofElsa Kurt Interviews.
I have another wonderful guestfor you guys today and for
myself.
This is very selfish for me.
I love having these guests onand talking about uh books and
all of the wonderful things thatthat happened behind the scenes
in book writing.
This is no exception.
I'll be talking to Dr.
(01:02):
Mary Mitchell, and she is goingto be sharing uh the backstory
behind her absolutelyfascinating memoir.
Here's a little bit about her.
SPEAKER_02 (01:12):
Today's guest is a woman who didn't just break
glass ceilings.
She walked through them withoutflinching, dusted off her
blazer, and got right back towork.
Dr.
Mary Mitchell built her careerin the bulk paper and timber
industries.
That's when the idea of a womanin those boardrooms sounded
about as likely as findingrounds at Studio 54.
(02:02):
Going on an adventure with avolatile, with someone who
survived one very good pen.
SPEAKER_01 (02:12):
Mary, I already love everything about this
conversation we're about tohave.
Everything that you cover fromthe name of the book, of course
I can do that, to the whole 80s,everything about the 80s.
I'm so excited.
Welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for joiningme.
SPEAKER_03 (02:31):
Well, I'm just tickled.
You really nailed that intro.
It's really great.
SPEAKER_01 (02:35):
Oh, good.
I'm so glad you liked it.
I have so much fun doing those.
It's it's just such a blast forme.
And and and I think it's such agreat way for everybody to get
an idea of who they're going toget to know with the just a
little bit of fun added to it.
So I I I'm so excited.
I want to I want to dive rightin and I and I kind of want to
start right from uh something alittle more personal.
(02:56):
So you built this memoir fromletters that you wrote to your
mother.
Uh I would love to know whatmade you decide to save those
letters?
Because I know I've writtenletters in the past and I just
toss them and never think twiceabout them, but you saved them.
And I would love to know um whatmade you do that.
And at what point did yourealize that they told a much
(03:18):
bigger story?
SPEAKER_03 (03:19):
I didn't save them, my mother did.
SPEAKER_01 (03:21):
Your mom did.
Good on mom.
SPEAKER_03 (03:24):
Yes, yes.
She was so worried about mecoming into the corporate world
and the man's world.
And I said, Mother, I will writeyou two letters a week.
And I did that for 10 years.
And she saved everyone.
And she was a um the secretaryfor Wright-Patterson Air Force
Base, and her boss was a NATOdelegate, so she had people from
all over the world coming in,and she had felt she had to
(03:47):
entertain them.
So she would buy letters andbinders and say, Would you like
to know what my daughter'sdoing?
And then people in herdepartment would come in on
Fridays and say, Can we takeMary's binders home and read
them?
Wow.
Oh.
A week before she died, shesaid, Do you want your letters
back?
And I was just in shock.
(04:08):
And uh, that's the whole story.
Good, bad, and ugly.
SPEAKER_01 (04:12):
Wow, that is incredible.
Oh, your mom is so awesome forhaving said.
I'm sure she's awesome in everyway.
Um, but how awesome that shesaved those.
What she knew it was, she knewyou had a treasure right there.
She knew that's incredible.
SPEAKER_03 (04:28):
She did.
Oh, she was she was one of themost personable people.
And so for talking to people whocame in from all around the
world, they they just came inand said, What's Mary Jr.
doing?
SPEAKER_01 (04:40):
That's so great.
Um, yeah, I mean, you know,we're talking about the 80s, and
and I think I have like reallyto be honest with you, I have
like selective memory when itcomes to what it was actually
like for women in that era.
And it's really hard for me, andprobably for anyone who's a lot
(05:01):
younger than me to imagine thatthe even in the 80s, you know, I
think when we think about likethe women's movement and women's
rights and all of those things,we're thinking our minds go to
like the 50s and the 60s andmaybe even the 70s, but the 80s
is a little harder to wrap yourbrain around.
For me, I was a teenager and andjust, you know, living my best
(05:23):
wild teenager life.
I don't think I knew thechallenges that were actually
there for women in the workingworld.
Um, but you certainly did.
You know, when most women weretold to find safe jobs, you
stepped direct directly intosome of the most male-dominated
industries in America.
(05:44):
So I have to know, because thisis your lane was and is a very
unique one, I think.
Um, the pulp, paper, and timberindustry.
It already sounds masculine.
So give me a little backhand,doesn't it?
Tell me a little bit about howthat even happened.
SPEAKER_03 (06:02):
Well, I had put my husband through college and we
were in Columbus, Ohio.
And when he was done, I said, II want to go to college too.
But I had been working in alumber wholesale office and I
love the smell of wood.
I love the people.
So I went down to Ohio State,which is three miles from me,
flipped through their coursecatalog.
Here was Forest IndustriesManagement with a minor in
(06:26):
sawmill management, how todesign a sawmill, how to, how to
any all the different parts ofit.
So I had a job three days aftergraduation with Crown Cellar
back in Portland, and I was fromOhio.
And they had hired, they had tonot have women in management.
They hired three women at thesame time.
We all went through the routineof finding out the corporation.
(06:49):
Within two years, I was the onlyone left.
Wow, no, it was hard.
Yeah.
My first boss the first daysaid, I just want to know why
you're not home baking cookies.
And I just started laughing.
It was like, that's ridiculous.
SPEAKER_01 (07:05):
Yeah.
Wow.
So you, I mean, you obviouslyyou kind of took things with a
grain of salt and laughed off,and you never really gave them
any quarter, did you?
You like was it humor that youused to diffuse, or did you have
to get kind of tough with them?
And I don't want you to giveaway too much that might be in
the book, but little littleglimpses if you could, because
(07:27):
that's amazing to me.
SPEAKER_03 (07:29):
I've only had two tyrant bosses in my life, and
one of them was there in the inthe 80s, and he he was so
challenging.
He in his previous business, heat Boise Cascade, people would
say when he walked down theaisle, people would throw up.
I mean, that's how of a tyranthe was.
(07:49):
And I thought, I'm not gonnacuss on here, but it was like
bull.
And so every time he came afterme because my job was the
highest cost for the whole Pultmill.
It was I outspent every othercost.
And so he was always on my case.
But I didn't come back at him, Iwas in trouble.
(08:11):
So I'd always come right back athim in a nice way.
Sure.
And uh I later found out as onetime I was gonna quit again
because I thought he wanted meto quit.
He said, Heck no, you're thebroad, you how did he say that?
You are the pushiest bra I evermet.
SPEAKER_01 (08:31):
So he respected you.
He actually respected you.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (08:35):
Yeah, he did.
SPEAKER_01 (08:36):
Wow.
SPEAKER_03 (08:37):
That was interesting.
And then when I did, my it wasaffecting my health.
It was such a tough time.
So when I got another job inCalifornia and I went into town,
I gave him two weeks notice.
He didn't speak to me again.
He was so offended that I wouldleave.
So I didn't know that, you know.
(08:58):
He had a good heart, you know.
SPEAKER_01 (09:00):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
That gruff exterior, there wasactually a good heart underneath
all of that.
Um how was it?
What was it in you that made itthat you weren't intimidated by
him, by these people?
And I know that there was somelevel of it.
I guess it's was probably moreof you didn't let it show.
(09:24):
How did you do that?
Because I feel like that wouldbe a master class for for
anyone, but particularly forwomen going into maybe
male-dominated fields.
Like, what did you do?
How did you do that?
SPEAKER_03 (09:38):
It it was my mom.
She said, Mary, you can doanything.
Just know that you can you cando anything.
So I was uh in my job at thelumber office.
Uh the tyrant was the owner, andin a 15-person office within a
year, 15 people left and werereplaced.
They couldn't stand working forhim.
(09:58):
I loved it.
He was really, he said, do it myway or the highway.
And I said, I'll do it your way.
So I always got along.
And and it's interesting whenyou get challenged, like when my
uh boss there at Fort Townsend.
Oh, it's it's well anyway, itwas so embarrassing to be with
(10:22):
him and one of my customers anda vice president of another
company, and he was just bad.
He just he was just bad all theway.
Um the vice president had atable in his sitting room on top
of a skyscraper in Vancouver.
And it was all crystal withcrystal, two crystal bowls.
(10:43):
And my boss sat down, crossedhis legs, and started ticking
the top of the table with hisfoot.
SPEAKER_00 (10:50):
No.
SPEAKER_03 (10:54):
Then he started smoking.
SPEAKER_01 (10:56):
Oh boy.
Yeah, then you could, right?
Back then it probably was I wasjust what can you say?
SPEAKER_03 (11:02):
You can't say he put his cigarettes out in these
crystal bowls.
SPEAKER_00 (11:07):
Oh no.
SPEAKER_03 (11:07):
And my cohorts there and I just looked at one
another.
It's nothing you can do.
He's doing his thing, he's doingintimidation things.
So it's nothing to get upsetabout because it didn't reflect
on me.
SPEAKER_01 (11:20):
Yeah, yeah, what a great perspective to have.
And how would you, if you don'tmind my asking, how old were you
during this time frame?
Like in your 20s, right?
SPEAKER_03 (11:28):
Well, actually, I was like going to college and I
graduated when I was 29.
I went to early 30s.
SPEAKER_01 (11:34):
Yeah, okay.
So yeah, you're a little bitolder, you're a little bit more
self-confidence than a green20-something year old.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (11:44):
The other ladies didn't make it.
SPEAKER_01 (11:46):
Yeah, yeah, that makes perfect sense because I
know in my 20s, I was, you know,I I did I I didn't have that
kind of backbone to be able tostand up for myself and to be
able to take things in stridethe way that you're older uh did
when you're older, uh, or canwhen you're older, where you you
(12:06):
just you're less bothered bythings because you've seen more.
You've seen more, you've hadmore life experiences, and
you're just not going to be, youknow, bowled over by anyone in
that way.
But I still, I just I can't evenimagine being in a room like
that and just, you know, tellingyourself that you're not
responsible for this person'sbehavior and to just kind of
(12:29):
emotionally step back from itand just let it happen.
That's not easy at all.
SPEAKER_03 (12:36):
Well, it's kind of amazing when you are looking
from the outside, even thoughyou're sitting right there and
he's doing his thing, it doesn'treflect on me.
People go, Boy, how did you workfor that guy?
SPEAKER_01 (12:46):
You know, so yeah, absolutely.
It took a it takes a specialkind of person to to be able to
withstand that.
And uh as you said yourself, youknow, the the other the others
that started off with you didnot make it, so it's wild.
Um, now I I I'm so fascinated byanything to do with the 80s
(13:07):
because it's part nostalgia forme and it's part like I kind of
said earlier, it's kind of likelearning about an era that I was
part of, but also wasn't a partof in so many ways.
Um you described the era asbeing volatile.
Can you give kind of like a Idon't know, like a snapshot of
what that meant behind thescenes?
(13:27):
And I know that was a big partof it, but um some other
scenarios and types of thingsthat was going on in that time
frame.
SPEAKER_03 (13:35):
When I was hired by Crown Zaling back, um they hired
me to buy wood waste fromsawmills for two paper mills on
in Puget Sands.
And as soon as all their pulpmills went on strike, there were
like 19 pulp mills in the wholeWestern US that went on strike,
(13:57):
you had contracts with sawmillsthat you had to take their wood
waste.
And so I wasn't ready, but theysaid, you gotta go, you gotta go
deal with this.
So I was pretty well thrown intodealing with the sawmills
because we had a contract totake their waste.
What am I gonna do with it?
I don't need it, and so I had tofind places to stockpile it.
(14:21):
I had to do whatever I could tokeep the sawmills running
because they would appreciatethat.
Sure.
But at the same time, I didn'tneed it, and so it was a very
complex uh situation.
Then you stockpile it, and thenyou have to pick it back up and
use it when now the pulp millsdon't need it.
So it was it was one or theother.
(14:42):
I uh you may not remember in the80s, the prime rate interest
rate hit 20%, and the housingloan rate hit 18.5%.
So housing was in the tubes, theworld paper market was hot, and
they needed more chips, and thesawmill shut down, and so it was
(15:03):
crazy.
And then six months later, theopposite.
So it was always um trying tofigure out figure out what to
do.
And there's this great bookwritten by uh Charles Keppner
and Ben Benjamin Trego calledKeppner Trego.
Best advice on negotiating Iever had, thank God.
(15:25):
I read it in college.
You do this, this, this, youfigure out what you're gonna do,
and then for everything youdidn't think about, come up with
five things that might happenthat would blow your mind.
And I tell you during the 80sthey happened.
Yeah, wow.
And then pick 10 things youcould do if that happens.
(15:47):
So you've already anticipatedwhat you're gonna do if the
crazy thing happened and thecrazy thing happened.
SPEAKER_01 (15:55):
Wow, yeah, everything crazy that could
happen did happen, right?
SPEAKER_03 (16:00):
Oh my goodness.
Anybody in business, just it'sum the rational, the new
rational manager.
It's just packed full of stufflike that.
SPEAKER_01 (16:11):
Yeah, and uh again, you know, this is an era where
it's a male-dominated field.
All of the workforces for themost part were male dominated.
Women in those fields wereusually secretaries and you
know, kind of subservient lesserroles, not running, you know,
(16:31):
not doing what you were doing.
What was, you know, your mom, ofcourse, was super supportive and
encouraging.
Uh, you said you were, Ibelieve, married at the at that
time.
Um, what was your husband'sreaction to all of this?
Because you had to have been,you know, for the the tough
exterior that you had to put onat work when you got home, you
know, you were, I would, I wouldimagine, able to kind of let
(16:54):
that down a little bit, inventand say, Oh, they're saying
this, they're doing this, theyhad me do this.
You know, what was his reactionand response to the world that
you were kind of thrust into?
SPEAKER_03 (17:06):
We had been married 20 years before I got that job.
And he was working for Bell Labsas an engineer.
He told all our friends andfamily, I'm retiring now.
Mary's got a good job.
Wow.
Oh my god.
So I didn't share anything withhim.
(17:27):
But after I was working suchlong hours, he started having an
affair with my neighbor lady.
SPEAKER_00 (17:33):
Oh boy.
SPEAKER_03 (17:35):
We have an airplane which we used to fly all around
the country, but uh I would Icame home one day and the the
lounge chairs were out in thegrass and Sun Tan Lotion was
there, and two wine glasses andthey were in the dishwasher.
I don't I this is not workingout well for me.
Yeah.
One day I got home and I said,How was your day?
(17:57):
And he said, Oh, Diana and Iflew up to the San Juan Islands
and had lunch.
I went.
That's I'm done.
SPEAKER_01 (18:06):
I love my favorite part, and I have two favorite
parts about that story rightnow.
One, that you're laughing.
I love that.
And two, that it was just socasual that you said, Well, we
had a plane that we flew around.
You know that's not what most ofus have in our driveway, right?
We don't have a plane that wehave.
I love the casualness of, yeah,we would just hop on the plane
(18:29):
and fly around.
Yeah, I love that.
Um, I you know, it's so clear tome that your attitude of of
perseverance and just strengthjust shines right through.
Like nothing is gonna take youdown.
And and I, and that that is soclear to me that that is
probably one of the biggestbesides your obvious intellect,
(18:53):
um, your your tenacity itdefinitely shines through that
nothing was gonna, and you'reyou're I wouldn't say that it's
probably not fair to say thatyou were an anomaly uh for the
time, but you probably were moreunique.
Were you also surrounded bybeside your mom, uh other women
of the same mindset, or wereyour girlfriends at the time?
(19:16):
Like, what are you doing?
SPEAKER_03 (19:18):
I didn't have time for anything.
SPEAKER_01 (19:20):
No, no time whatsoever.
You're too busy.
Yeah, I get that.
SPEAKER_03 (19:23):
Yeah, when I decided to go to college, I thought I'm
going three years round, roundyou know, all year round because
I'm not here to party, I'm hereto get somewhere.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (19:33):
What would you say if you could say something?
And I know we're in a differentworld right now, but um, when
you look back at the culture ofthose workplaces, what would
shock younger women today themost?
Because they're so they maybedon't believe that they are, but
they are so protected now in somany ways, whereas you certainly
were not, and your you know,counterparts uh in the the
(19:56):
workforce like that were not.
What do you is there anythingyou didn't come up with that
would just shock them to thecore right now.
SPEAKER_03 (20:05):
They're already going through shock.
Yeah.
In a male-dominated industry,it's a male-dominated industry.
I mean, they're nicer andthey're sweeter, but they also
uh um can be a little forward inif you're here in this job,
surely, you know, come home withme and rub my back, kind of
things like that.
(20:26):
And the the advice I have forany woman in business like that
is always stick to the business.
Don't respond to what they'resaying, go back to price, go
back to inventory, go back tothe business.
And they get tired and they go,okay, okay, well, do the
business.
SPEAKER_01 (20:43):
Right, right.
Yeah.
And so, and you know, and thatis such the cliche trap of any
um business relationship.
Of course, you know, businessesnow are, you know, the majority.
I'm sure there's still a fewthat are um, you know, so male
dominated, but overall, youknow, most of the professions
are are commingled andeverything.
Um, but that is absolutely oneof the biggest cliches, the
(21:06):
office romances that always gosouth and always become a
problem.
And, you know, we are still asadvanced as we are, uh, we still
are attached to those, thosetraditional mindsets that it's
always the woman that getsbranded, right?
And if, you know, and that hasnot changed.
I don't care what anybody says,that has not changed.
(21:28):
They're not talking about theguy and calling her nasty names
and you know, um, implying thatshe sleeps around and all of
that stuff.
Or if they do say it, they'rehe's getting a pat on the back
and she's getting, you know, theevil eye.
Um, but yes, I that is so true,and that holds still today,
true.
That just don't do it, don't getinvolved, stay on task on the
(21:54):
job.
That's like the best adviceever.
SPEAKER_03 (21:57):
It is.
And one of the thingscorporations do now is they have
lawyers that make you sign anagreement every year.
You are not gonna do this,you're gonna stay on business,
and and that helps a lot.
SPEAKER_01 (22:09):
Yeah, definitely, definitely.
Now, because you didn't reallyhave again any of those real
protections, no, you know,nobody in HR looking out for
your your benefit there, werethere times where you felt like
throwing in the towel and justbeing done with it, or did it
just make you kind of sink inharder, deeper?
(22:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (22:30):
I'm not gonna let anybody stop me from doing this
job.
I I will find a way, I'll find away.
You know, when I first went upto Puget Sound, um the person
who was the wood fiber supplybuyer that I was becoming had
been retired three months.
And so uh the pulp mill managerwanted control over my job, but
(22:50):
Portland had control over myjob.
So he tried everything to get meto quit.
He complained to Portland, hejust did everything, and they
knew what he was doing.
The person that helped so muchwhen I got up there, he gave the
they gave me an office in thebasement.
Oh next to the janitor.
(23:12):
Showing you the love there.
It was so funny.
And the janitor had all the newsabout everything that's ever
happened and who was who and whowas doing what.
I we had the greatestconversation, so I just I just
knew everything.
The manager still wished that umhe could get rid of me because
he wanted my job under himbecause it was it was 30 million
(23:37):
dollars a year that I spent fortheir money.
SPEAKER_00 (23:39):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (23:40):
Um so anyway, I I have always talked to the people
you wouldn't talk to.
I'll talk to the scale scalehealth manager, I'll talk to the
truck driver who's in theparking lot, I'll talk to
anybody that can tell me thingsthat are going on in the
business that I might not know.
So I was always gatheringinformation.
SPEAKER_01 (24:02):
I just I'm just blown away at how savvy you
were, like just soknowledgeable, like
instinctually knowledgeable.
And of course, I know you havethe the college degrees and
everything and that type oftraining, but the instinct is
something I don't know if it canbe taught because it's instinct,
(24:23):
like you just knew uh thatthat's such a gift, and and if
you could bottle it and sell itto people, right?
You'd be a a trillionairebecause it's it's such a
valuable, um it's such an aval avaluable ability to have to be
able to read people, to know adifferent way to approach
(24:44):
things.
And and of course, in in thatworld, you you kind of it was
either sink or swim, right?
Like that was that was it.
You had to do it.
Incredible.
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (24:55):
And I think some women, maybe just some new
people, and just don't want toask the hard questions because
they don't want to show peoplethey don't know anything.
Yes.
I was asking everybody abouteverything.
And I was thinking, you know,when I finally left PewTit
Sound, um got a job inCalifornia, same type of job
(25:16):
buying wood, but it was for awood firedpower plant that used
a hundred semi-trockloads a dayof wood waste seven days a week.
And the company that owned ithad a had a consultant do a
report, and the report said, Oh,you can get all that wood within
90 miles of the power plant.
(25:37):
Why in the world?
Most of that wood went to Japanbecause it was wood for paper.
Oh it was an amazing experience.
Yeah.
So things happened that I justdug in, hired a couple people
in, and we asked everybody abouteverything.
I even brought in chips fromMontana to California.
(26:00):
Wow.
Brought in a huge barge of chipsfrom Vancouver, Canada into San
Francisco.
I mean, whatever it took, we'regonna do it.
SPEAKER_01 (26:08):
Did you get pushback on that?
I mean, because were youthinking outside of the box,
even with those ideas?
Like were that that was just allyou came up with that, you said
this is what we're gonna do.
Was there pushback on that?
It could be on because it soundslike it was out of the box a
little bit.
SPEAKER_03 (26:24):
Yeah, it was because um I worked for another company
for this plant.
And if we didn't do it, if wedidn't get them uh chips and
sawdust and all that, majorpenalties.
And so at one point, it was onlylike three months into the job,
my boss, who was a VP downsouth, said, You need to cancel
(26:46):
that part of the contract, youneed to get the contract amended
that uh took us off the hook forpenalties.
I said, but then I'll lose myjob.
He goes, Well, you know, that'sthe way it goes.
And I I did it, and it wasgreat.
Wow.
That's wild.
I talked to them about how muchrevenue they would lose from PG
(27:08):
and if I ran them out of wood.
SPEAKER_05 (27:10):
Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_01 (27:12):
And they went, oh suddenly their eyes were opened
very wide, right?
unknown (27:20):
It was.
SPEAKER_03 (27:21):
And one of the fun stories, if you don't mind, is
with Sierra Pacific Industries,the biggest uh forest landowner
and owner of sawmills in thecountry.
Their owner was Red Emerson,historic figure in in the
industry.
He was building a small logsawmill about 10 miles from the
(27:42):
power plant before we started.
So I went to him and I said, youknow, I'd like to buy the wood
waste that you're gonna have,about 15 loaves a day.
I needed 100, but that was good.
And uh and he said, Well, it'sgonna cost you.
And I said, Well, here's themarket.
And he goes, Oh no, no, no, II'm gonna keep the wood waste.
And so I hired a log buyer andwe started buying logs and
(28:05):
chipped them up.
Well, I didn't need his woodwaste.
And a few months later he calledme and says, Okay, okay, I'm
ready to sell it to you.
So I all these contracts younegotiate every three months,
every three months, 60contracts.
Anyway, so uh I would go in andmeet with Red, and I knew what
(28:30):
was going on in the market, andI we would talk and he would go,
Oh, you're right, price shouldgo up or down, whatever.
Well, when um he retired, and Iwent to a another position, and
I saw his vice presidentdowntown one day, and I said,
Oh, how's Red doing?
He says, Oh, he's doing great,but I'll tell you what, every
(28:52):
time he hears your name, hegoes, That darn woman never left
a dime on the table.
SPEAKER_01 (28:57):
And I thought, so a little pat on the shoulder
there, a pat on the back, right?
So, yeah, so obviously you wereyou were a master negotiator.
I mean, that definitely was youryou know, big part of your forte
there.
Um, tell me about you havesomething called the plain
(29:17):
vanilla approach.
Explain that and and how thatworks so well.
SPEAKER_03 (29:23):
When I hired a log buyer who was recommended to me
as a good good guy, goodnegotiator.
I said, okay, well, go here andtalk to these people about logs.
And and I I kind of had afeeling like, okay, I'm gonna go
with you.
I'm not gonna say anything, I'mgonna go with you.
So we walk into this manager'soffice, and on the back wall
(29:46):
were pictures of fish, everykind of fish you could think of,
every kind of stream, his wallwas full of fishing pictures.
And my log buyer, instead ofignoring it because it's a it's
uh an intimidation thing, hegoes to the fish and he goes,
Where did you catch these?
Tell me the stories.
I'm like, Oh my god.
You don't do that, they'reintimidating you with pictures
(30:08):
like that.
Then then you become buddies,and then you can't get the good
price, and then you know, so Iwent back to my office and I
thought, how did I what did Ireally learn?
And so I wrote down my 10 tipsand he read them and he was
totally blown away.
And within two months, he wasreally a good negotiator.
(30:30):
And so I put it in the bookbecause I think many women are
intimidated by negotiation.
I mean, there's so many ways.
Um, there's an example of thisone sawmill I went to when I
came to California, and uh theyushered me into the manager's
office, which tells you hethinks highly of himself, and it
(30:52):
was very dark in there, and hesaid, sit down in front of my
desk.
And immediately I was six incheslower than he was.
So he's looking down at me.
Yeah, first red flag.
Second was there were animalheads from every animal in
Africa you can think of, allaround the room.
(31:12):
I ignored it.
He's like looking around theroom, he's like and I went right
to business, right to business.
Yeah, well, that wasn't working.
So he said, let's go sit in thecorner of the office where
there's two chairs and a lampand a table in between.
Sat down there, and he's waitingfor me to say something because
(31:34):
the lamp was made out of azebra's leg.
SPEAKER_01 (31:38):
Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_03 (31:40):
I ignored it.
Yeah, straight to business.
He he gave up.
SPEAKER_01 (31:45):
Oh, you drove him crazy.
You destroyed every tactic thathe tried to use against you.
Oh my goodness.
Yeah.
How did you know?
Was that instinct?
Was that had you taken a course?
Did you like did you justintuitively know and understand
what he was what he was tryingto do?
SPEAKER_03 (32:06):
Well, when I initially started, it it would
didn't take me but a couple ofweeks to realize most of the men
I was gonna negotiate love tointimidate women.
This is bull, I'm not gonna dothat.
And so I started reading moreabout negotiation.
And Ketna Trigo is really goodabout that in your book.
And um, and so I knew if they'retrying to intimidate you, you're
(32:28):
gonna lose.
And there's no way I'm gonna dothat.
SPEAKER_01 (32:33):
Oh, I love that.
I knew I knew right from theget-go, I liked you, like right
off the bat.
I'm like, oh, she's so likeyou're just such a a great role
model for young women to goinginto business.
And um, I I just can you teachus all a course?
Can you get like I'm not evengoing into business?
(32:53):
Like, I just this is what I do,you know.
I do I do mostly all my stuff bymyself, but I still feel like I
just want to know the thingsthat you know, you know, if if
you can teach what you knowintuitively, and of course, that
you've learned uh through yourexperiences and all of that,
it's so beneficial, such a gamechanger.
Oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_03 (33:13):
My 10 tips, it's interesting.
Uh in California, I met a womanwho ran a church that I we
really became good friends.
And her husband was aninstructor at um one of the
colleges near Sacramento.
And his wife said, You ought toread Mary's 10 tips of
negotiation.
And he read it and went, God,half of these I didn't even
(33:35):
think about.
He sent it to a person who uhtaught negotiation at San Diego
State, and he goes, There aresome things here I didn't think
about.
So I thought, for some reason,anybody can buy the book and
send the appendix.
SPEAKER_01 (33:49):
Yes, yes, absolutely.
Buy that book that's a gamechanger.
And because so much of it is, Imean, probably all of it is
psychology.
It's just psychology and and youknow, behavior uh uh analysis
and all this, and be able toread body language, you know,
all of those things that, youknow, there are people out
(34:11):
there, there are behavioralscientists or are, you know,
learning this and teaching this.
And and it is, you know, to beable to know to do these things,
it just changes the wholeplaying field for, you know,
anyone who understands all ofthat.
And, you know, again, we'retalking and I keep harping on
it, guys, because it's such adifferent time, it's such a
(34:34):
different mentality, everything.
This was back in the 80s thatyou were figuring all of this
out.
It's just uh it just blows mymind.
Now, um, did you have likethroughout any of this, did you
have any kind of mentor who waskind of like guiding you in any
way?
Or it was just just like ahundred percent your upbringing
(34:58):
and your just intuitiveknowledge?
SPEAKER_03 (35:01):
Well, at Crown Zeller Back, they had um several
pulp mills in the Northwest, andevery three or four months, we
all the wood fiber buyers wouldget together and we would
compare notes.
What do you think the market'sgonna do?
What are you gonna do if thishappens, and so on.
And the chip buyer, we call themchip buyers, uh, they were very
helpful, very helpful, gettingme on my feet.
(35:23):
They were nice that I was there.
My boss was as helpful as hecould be, so that was nice.
They didn't, well, they did,they were helpful, but when the
mills went on strike, theyneeded somebody in Puget Sam
because the buyer had beenretired three months.
So they said, sorry to dump youup there, but there you are.
(35:43):
Here you go, right?
Yeah.
So these barges were sitting atthe dock and being unloaded, and
I called it was Foss Launch andTug.
Tug was the name of the company.
So I called and I said, Whereare these barges coming from?
Because I had no idea.
Nobody, and so their um mainsupervisor came over the next
(36:04):
day and went over all of it withme.
Trying to have these truckscoming in.
Nobody could tell me wherethey're coming from.
So I called the trucking companyand Gary Dynas, bless his heart,
came over and he took me for twodays around to every mill I was
getting uh wood waste from.
Told me complexity, you know,all the things that go wrong.
(36:26):
And so I had some really greatpeople in the industry.
Nice, very helpful.
SPEAKER_01 (36:33):
Just random.
How many mills was that?
Was like how many mills were yougoing to at that point for that?
SPEAKER_03 (36:39):
60 contracts.
SPEAKER_01 (36:40):
Oh wow, okay.
SPEAKER_03 (36:41):
And so, you know, some are small, some are big.
SPEAKER_05 (36:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (36:45):
But every one of them was working, depending on
the market.
They'd be shut down for twoweeks on one shift, on three
shifts, on no shift.
It was just yeah, anyway, it'svery volatile.
SPEAKER_01 (36:58):
Wow, I know.
I'm just I'm just awed by itall.
Um, tell me, I know there,there, I I can tell you you love
to laugh and you have a greatsense of humor.
And I would love to know if youcan think of maybe something
from the book, if it's in thebook and you're willing to share
a little snippet.
Uh, what what's one of thefunnier memories that you have
(37:19):
of that time that still kind ofmakes you laugh a little bit?
SPEAKER_03 (37:23):
Oh, uh in the Port Angeles pulp mill.
They really resented me being abuyer.
So they did everything to keepme away.
And the manager gave hiscontroller charge of all the
wood waste.
Well, it wasn't two weeks laterthat the controller went on
vacation and the whole mill wentto hell.
(37:44):
I mean, they ran out ofHogfield, they ran out of, they
were like one day away fromrunning out of wood to make
paper out of.
I happened to stop by and said,just say hi.
He goes, Do you see what's goingon out there?
And I said, Oh yeah, yeah, I do.
Can you fix it?
I went, of course.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (38:06):
Sure I can.
Of course I can do that.
SPEAKER_03 (38:11):
That afternoon, I mean it's a God thing, actually.
That afternoon, a landowner westof Port Angeles called me and he
said, I years ago, nobody couldget rid of their hot fuel.
So I let them fill up a valleyon my property with it.
I heard you're a little short.
Come out here and dig it up.
(38:32):
So within 24 hours, I had afront-end loader, self-unloading
trucks, and we were bringing allthat hot fuel in, and you know,
I just had to laugh.
And the manager looked at me andsaid, Can you give me a plan of
how you do this and I'll let youdo it?
(38:53):
I said, Of course.
SPEAKER_01 (38:55):
Of course I can do that.
Jay, I'm having a hard timewondering where you came up with
the title for this.
Oh, I love it.
So your yes, I can came beforeyou even knew if you could,
right?
Like that's that's kind of likethe gist of it.
Like, yes, I can do that.
You're gonna give the answer ofyes, I can, and then you're
(39:19):
gonna figure out how you can doit after the fact, right?
SPEAKER_03 (39:21):
Exactly.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (39:22):
I love that.
SPEAKER_03 (39:23):
Calling people, even competitors.
One time I was looking for abarge of sawdust, and we were
gonna run, it takes a mix ofchips and soddists to make
paper, and we were gonna run outin two days.
And I'm like, God, I can't finda barge of sawdust anywhere.
My competitor called me and hesaid, There's a barge of sawdust
here that they don't need.
And I called it up and got itthe next day.
(39:45):
So a lot of you know, helpingeach other.
Yeah, home office.
SPEAKER_01 (39:52):
Yeah, I did not expect that the help would be
there like that from thecompetitor.
So that's actually pretty cool.
That's a that's a nice Nicesurprise there.
SPEAKER_03 (40:01):
Well, it takes a level of respect for each other.
SPEAKER_01 (40:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's really nice.
Now, when you were going throughthese letters, because that that
in itself had to be such anexperience to be re-reading
those letters all over again.
Oh my goodness.
It it just had to have taken youback into that that time, that
(40:27):
that mindset and and all of thethings.
Um, tell me a little bit aboutwhat that was like for you to
take these letters and now, youknow, of course, the whole
rereading them and revisitingthe that time.
Um, what was it like for youputting it together in book
form?
What did you find it easy,challenging, a mixture of both,
(40:50):
fun, terrifying, daunting,anything?
SPEAKER_03 (40:54):
All of the above.
All of the above.
And I put them away because Ireally didn't want to read them.
Six months later, I thought,okay, get them out.
And I thought, okay, type themup for posterity.
And it was 123 type pages.
SPEAKER_05 (41:10):
Wow.
SPEAKER_03 (41:10):
And that's my memoir.
Yeah, wow.
And I I wanted it to berealistic, and it was almost
word for word.
I left out when our neighborscame over for dinner and stuff
like that.
But anything about business?
Because she wanted to know.
SPEAKER_01 (41:26):
Yeah, yeah, that's cool.
Your mom sounds like she was uha bit of an uh innovator, a
little bit of an outside of thebox thinker for the time, also.
So it sounds like it was wellpassed down.
I I think that's so wonderful.
SPEAKER_03 (41:43):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (41:45):
Um, let's see.
What else do I ask you?
We're there's so many greatthings.
I asked you about your funnymoments.
I love that.
I asked you about your mentor.
You know, we live in a worldobsessed with buzzwords like
female empowerment.
Um, but you actually live that.
That was your reality.
Like you were female empowermentbefore it was a buzzword.
(42:08):
Um, what do modern conversationsabout women and leadership get
right?
And what do they get wrong, inyour opinion?
SPEAKER_03 (42:16):
It I think it's the simple part.
Anytime you're trying to be inthey're trying to intimidate
you, just realize that.
And if you go along with it,you're gonna lose whatever it is
that you're negotiating for.
But also when it gets personal,um how many times I was somebody
(42:37):
had a sore back and wanted me tocome home with them to because
his wife had him, blah blahblah.
No, stay with the business.
And they respect that.
You know, then they don't do itagain, which is the bad part.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (42:51):
Yeah, absolutely.
That's so true.
Um, if your if the if your bookwere to become a required
reading in business schools,let's just imagine that it did.
Um, what would be the singlelesson you hope that they take
away from it?
SPEAKER_03 (43:12):
Know your market, know the people in the market in
every position you can, becausesometimes it's the guy that
moves the barge to the dockthat's got more information than
anybody or the janitor.
Talk to everybody.
Don't think they're low enoughnot to talk to you.
Just build your build yourframework of I know the pulse of
(43:34):
everything that's going on.
Because in Puget Sound, forinstance, negotiating 60
contracts every three months, Ihad to do it quickly, so I had
to know everything.
What every sawmill was doing,what every every every every
inventory at the pump mills, umwere all the trucks running,
were all the barges running, Ihad all the stuff.
So I had about 15 things thatwere on my checklist to know
(43:57):
what is the current condition.
And my uh winning point on thatis at one point I told my boss
in Portland, chips were runningaround$100 a ton.
I think I can get them down 30%.
And he goes, ah, no, no, no, no,no.
And he checked with the otherchip buyers and they go, Oh,
Mary, that's ridiculous.
(44:20):
I said, I'll bet you each crownroyal that I'll get it done.
And they said, Hey, piece ofcake, you you won't get that.
So I um met with the key majorsupplier, and he only gave me 15
minutes to tell my story, and hetried to put coals in it.
(44:43):
Yeah, after 15 minutes, he goes,damn, sorry.
SPEAKER_00 (44:47):
It's okay.
SPEAKER_03 (44:49):
Okay, okay.
So I had five fifths of crownthe room.
SPEAKER_01 (44:55):
That's pretty awesome.
And and by the way, you know, Iam I'm well aware what a
male-dominated world would soundlike and and can sound like.
So I just want to commend youfor not having that that trucker
mouth on because if you do, youkept that in check this whole
(45:16):
time.
It it has taken me, uh, I I'm inthe I'm in the very, very
difficult process of learninghow to not swear, by the way,
and I'm failing miserably mostof the time.
So yeah, that it just you gaveme a chuckle with that because I
I could just imagine what thosethe language sounded like.
(45:37):
So if you were a um, you know,just a sweet young innocent girl
of the 80s being dropped intothat world with the kind of
language and and mentality thatwas probably just a matter of
course for the for the era, um,it probably would have been
quite the eye-opener.
So fortunately, you were unfazedlike you were.
SPEAKER_05 (46:02):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (46:03):
Oh my goodness.
Mary, um, tell everyone wherethey can find your book.
And if you're doing, I don't,I'm sorry, I I don't know if
you're doing any book signingappearances, but if you are,
feel free to let people knowwhere you're gonna be and where
you can find you and all thatgood stuff.
SPEAKER_03 (46:17):
Well, this is uh we're just at the beginning of
the publishing, and right nowit's on Kindle on Amazon, and
within two weeks, the paperbackwill be available, then the
hardback, and then the audio.
So it'll all be the it's all beunfolding over this next month.
And um it's it's very, veryexciting.
So we'll see how it comes.
SPEAKER_01 (46:38):
Wonderful.
I'm so excited for you.
I'm excited, even more than I'mexcited for you.
I'm excited for the people whoread this book, and and I am
going to very strongly encouragethat it becomes some curriculum
in a business school because itsounds like it is delivered in a
way that would resonate andreally mean something instead of
like just dry, you know, manualmaterial.
(47:02):
So yeah, I you know, I'm gonnavote for that if I could.
If I if I could, I would.
You did.
You just there.
I put it out into the universe,so you know.
SPEAKER_03 (47:14):
Oh I think if anybody in college right now has
a chance to take a negotiationcourse, they should.
Business writing, oh, that's abig one.
Gotta learn the businesswriting.
And um dealing with people,dealing with difficult people,
that's really important.
SPEAKER_01 (47:32):
And and you know, I think more than ever right now,
um, that is a a lacking skillbecause we we've hit a point in
time where uh where our our egosand our ourselves, I'm
generalizing, um, are veryfragile and we we are not
capable.
We're we haven't been raisingyoung adults capable of handling
(47:55):
those situations.
So find a way, guys, becauseyou're gonna need it if you want
to be playing in the real world.
If you want to play with the bigdogs, you better figure it out,
kids.
SPEAKER_05 (48:06):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (48:08):
Oh, Mary, again, thank you so much for coming on
the show today.
Uh, I enjoyed learning all aboutthis, and and I can't wait to
check out your book.
And uh guys, everyone watchingand listening, they will be the
uh link for the book will be inthe show notes, and you'll be
able to find everything aboutMary Mitchell and her book uh
(48:28):
right there.
So uh make sure you do.
And after you read it, make sureyou go and review it on Amazon.
We ask you guys this everychance we get because it is so
critically important to helpother people find the book.
So, Mary, thank you again forcoming on the show.
I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_03 (48:44):
I so appreciate you, and it's been totally
delightful.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (48:47):
Oh, good.
I'm so glad.
Take care, and we'll see youguys next week.
SPEAKER_02 (48:52):
From small town love stories to battles of truth and
loyalty, Elsa Kurt's booksfollow the same heartbeat.
Ordinary people facingextraordinary moments.
You'll find romance, drama,second chances, even a peek
behind the microphone in anewest release.
Multiple genres, differentworlds, same thread.
Old truth, real face, nopolitics.
Every conversation tells a story, and the best ones
(00:02):
begin with honesty, courage, anda little curiosity.
That's where Elsa Kurt comes in.
She's an author, podcaster, andindependent media personality,
and this is where she bringsreal life to the table.
Authors, thinkers, creators,leaders, everyday folks with
extraordinary journeys.
We sit down, we dig in, and wetalk about what matters, what's
(00:26):
messy, what's beautiful, andwhat just might inspire you to
look at the world a littledifferently.
So pour a cup of something good.
Settle back and join me.
This is Elsa Kurt Interviews,where truth has a stake and
everyone's welcome.
SPEAKER_01 (00:42):
Well, hey friends.
Welcome back for another week ofElsa Kurt Interviews.
I have another wonderful guestfor you guys today and for
myself.
This is very selfish for me.
I love having these guests onand talking about uh books and
all of the wonderful things thatthat happened behind the scenes
in book writing.
This is no exception.
I'll be talking to Dr.
(01:02):
Mary Mitchell, and she is goingto be sharing uh the backstory
behind her absolutelyfascinating memoir.
Here's a little bit about her.
SPEAKER_02 (01:12):
Today's guest is a woman who didn't just break
glass ceilings.
She walked through them withoutflinching, dusted off her
blazer, and got right back towork.
Dr.
Mary Mitchell built her careerin the bulk paper and timber
industries.
That's when the idea of a womanin those boardrooms sounded
about as likely as findingrounds at Studio 54.
(02:02):
Going on an adventure with avolatile, with someone who
survived one very good pen.
SPEAKER_01 (02:12):
Mary, I already love everything about this
conversation we're about tohave.
Everything that you cover fromthe name of the book, of course
I can do that, to the whole 80s,everything about the 80s.
I'm so excited.
Welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for joiningme.
SPEAKER_03 (02:31):
Well, I'm just tickled.
You really nailed that intro.
It's really great.
SPEAKER_01 (02:35):
Oh, good.
I'm so glad you liked it.
I have so much fun doing those.
It's it's just such a blast forme.
And and and I think it's such agreat way for everybody to get
an idea of who they're going toget to know with the just a
little bit of fun added to it.
So I I I'm so excited.
I want to I want to dive rightin and I and I kind of want to
start right from uh something alittle more personal.
(02:56):
So you built this memoir fromletters that you wrote to your
mother.
Uh I would love to know whatmade you decide to save those
letters?
Because I know I've writtenletters in the past and I just
toss them and never think twiceabout them, but you saved them.
And I would love to know um whatmade you do that.
And at what point did yourealize that they told a much
(03:18):
bigger story?
SPEAKER_03 (03:19):
I didn't save them, my mother did.
SPEAKER_01 (03:21):
Your mom did.
Good on mom.
SPEAKER_03 (03:24):
Yes, yes.
She was so worried about mecoming into the corporate world
and the man's world.
And I said, Mother, I will writeyou two letters a week.
And I did that for 10 years.
And she saved everyone.
And she was a um the secretaryfor Wright-Patterson Air Force
Base, and her boss was a NATOdelegate, so she had people from
all over the world coming in,and she had felt she had to
(03:47):
entertain them.
So she would buy letters andbinders and say, Would you like
to know what my daughter'sdoing?
And then people in herdepartment would come in on
Fridays and say, Can we takeMary's binders home and read
them?
Wow.
Oh.
A week before she died, shesaid, Do you want your letters
back?
And I was just in shock.
(04:08):
And uh, that's the whole story.
Good, bad, and ugly.
SPEAKER_01 (04:12):
Wow, that is incredible.
Oh, your mom is so awesome forhaving said.
I'm sure she's awesome in everyway.
Um, but how awesome that shesaved those.
What she knew it was, she knewyou had a treasure right there.
She knew that's incredible.
SPEAKER_03 (04:28):
She did.
Oh, she was she was one of themost personable people.
And so for talking to people whocame in from all around the
world, they they just came inand said, What's Mary Jr.
doing?
SPEAKER_01 (04:40):
That's so great.
Um, yeah, I mean, you know,we're talking about the 80s, and
and I think I have like reallyto be honest with you, I have
like selective memory when itcomes to what it was actually
like for women in that era.
And it's really hard for me, andprobably for anyone who's a lot
(05:01):
younger than me to imagine thatthe even in the 80s, you know, I
think when we think about likethe women's movement and women's
rights and all of those things,we're thinking our minds go to
like the 50s and the 60s andmaybe even the 70s, but the 80s
is a little harder to wrap yourbrain around.
For me, I was a teenager and andjust, you know, living my best
(05:23):
wild teenager life.
I don't think I knew thechallenges that were actually
there for women in the workingworld.
Um, but you certainly did.
You know, when most women weretold to find safe jobs, you
stepped direct directly intosome of the most male-dominated
industries in America.
(05:44):
So I have to know, because thisis your lane was and is a very
unique one, I think.
Um, the pulp, paper, and timberindustry.
It already sounds masculine.
So give me a little backhand,doesn't it?
Tell me a little bit about howthat even happened.
SPEAKER_03 (06:02):
Well, I had put my husband through college and we
were in Columbus, Ohio.
And when he was done, I said, II want to go to college too.
But I had been working in alumber wholesale office and I
love the smell of wood.
I love the people.
So I went down to Ohio State,which is three miles from me,
flipped through their coursecatalog.
Here was Forest IndustriesManagement with a minor in
(06:26):
sawmill management, how todesign a sawmill, how to, how to
any all the different parts ofit.
So I had a job three days aftergraduation with Crown Cellar
back in Portland, and I was fromOhio.
And they had hired, they had tonot have women in management.
They hired three women at thesame time.
We all went through the routineof finding out the corporation.
(06:49):
Within two years, I was the onlyone left.
Wow, no, it was hard.
Yeah.
My first boss the first daysaid, I just want to know why
you're not home baking cookies.
And I just started laughing.
It was like, that's ridiculous.
SPEAKER_01 (07:05):
Yeah.
Wow.
So you, I mean, you obviouslyyou kind of took things with a
grain of salt and laughed off,and you never really gave them
any quarter, did you?
You like was it humor that youused to diffuse, or did you have
to get kind of tough with them?
And I don't want you to giveaway too much that might be in
the book, but little littleglimpses if you could, because
(07:27):
that's amazing to me.
SPEAKER_03 (07:29):
I've only had two tyrant bosses in my life, and
one of them was there in the inthe 80s, and he he was so
challenging.
He in his previous business, heat Boise Cascade, people would
say when he walked down theaisle, people would throw up.
I mean, that's how of a tyranthe was.
(07:49):
And I thought, I'm not gonnacuss on here, but it was like
bull.
And so every time he came afterme because my job was the
highest cost for the whole Pultmill.
It was I outspent every othercost.
And so he was always on my case.
But I didn't come back at him, Iwas in trouble.
(08:11):
So I'd always come right back athim in a nice way.
Sure.
And uh I later found out as onetime I was gonna quit again
because I thought he wanted meto quit.
He said, Heck no, you're thebroad, you how did he say that?
You are the pushiest bra I evermet.
SPEAKER_01 (08:31):
So he respected you.
He actually respected you.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (08:35):
Yeah, he did.
SPEAKER_01 (08:36):
Wow.
SPEAKER_03 (08:37):
That was interesting.
And then when I did, my it wasaffecting my health.
It was such a tough time.
So when I got another job inCalifornia and I went into town,
I gave him two weeks notice.
He didn't speak to me again.
He was so offended that I wouldleave.
So I didn't know that, you know.
(08:58):
He had a good heart, you know.
SPEAKER_01 (09:00):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
That gruff exterior, there wasactually a good heart underneath
all of that.
Um how was it?
What was it in you that made itthat you weren't intimidated by
him, by these people?
And I know that there was somelevel of it.
I guess it's was probably moreof you didn't let it show.
(09:24):
How did you do that?
Because I feel like that wouldbe a master class for for
anyone, but particularly forwomen going into maybe
male-dominated fields.
Like, what did you do?
How did you do that?
SPEAKER_03 (09:38):
It it was my mom.
She said, Mary, you can doanything.
Just know that you can you cando anything.
So I was uh in my job at thelumber office.
Uh the tyrant was the owner, andin a 15-person office within a
year, 15 people left and werereplaced.
They couldn't stand working forhim.
(09:58):
I loved it.
He was really, he said, do it myway or the highway.
And I said, I'll do it your way.
So I always got along.
And and it's interesting whenyou get challenged, like when my
uh boss there at Fort Townsend.
Oh, it's it's well anyway, itwas so embarrassing to be with
(10:22):
him and one of my customers anda vice president of another
company, and he was just bad.
He just he was just bad all theway.
Um the vice president had atable in his sitting room on top
of a skyscraper in Vancouver.
And it was all crystal withcrystal, two crystal bowls.
(10:43):
And my boss sat down, crossedhis legs, and started ticking
the top of the table with hisfoot.
SPEAKER_00 (10:50):
No.
SPEAKER_03 (10:54):
Then he started smoking.
SPEAKER_01 (10:56):
Oh boy.
Yeah, then you could, right?
Back then it probably was I wasjust what can you say?
SPEAKER_03 (11:02):
You can't say he put his cigarettes out in these
crystal bowls.
SPEAKER_00 (11:07):
Oh no.
SPEAKER_03 (11:07):
And my cohorts there and I just looked at one
another.
It's nothing you can do.
He's doing his thing, he's doingintimidation things.
So it's nothing to get upsetabout because it didn't reflect
on me.
SPEAKER_01 (11:20):
Yeah, yeah, what a great perspective to have.
And how would you, if you don'tmind my asking, how old were you
during this time frame?
Like in your 20s, right?
SPEAKER_03 (11:28):
Well, actually, I was like going to college and I
graduated when I was 29.
I went to early 30s.
SPEAKER_01 (11:34):
Yeah, okay.
So yeah, you're a little bitolder, you're a little bit more
self-confidence than a green20-something year old.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (11:44):
The other ladies didn't make it.
SPEAKER_01 (11:46):
Yeah, yeah, that makes perfect sense because I
know in my 20s, I was, you know,I I did I I didn't have that
kind of backbone to be able tostand up for myself and to be
able to take things in stridethe way that you're older uh did
when you're older, uh, or canwhen you're older, where you you
(12:06):
just you're less bothered bythings because you've seen more.
You've seen more, you've hadmore life experiences, and
you're just not going to be, youknow, bowled over by anyone in
that way.
But I still, I just I can't evenimagine being in a room like
that and just, you know, tellingyourself that you're not
responsible for this person'sbehavior and to just kind of
(12:29):
emotionally step back from itand just let it happen.
That's not easy at all.
SPEAKER_03 (12:36):
Well, it's kind of amazing when you are looking
from the outside, even thoughyou're sitting right there and
he's doing his thing, it doesn'treflect on me.
People go, Boy, how did you workfor that guy?
SPEAKER_01 (12:46):
You know, so yeah, absolutely.
It took a it takes a specialkind of person to to be able to
withstand that.
And uh as you said yourself, youknow, the the other the others
that started off with you didnot make it, so it's wild.
Um, now I I I'm so fascinated byanything to do with the 80s
(13:07):
because it's part nostalgia forme and it's part like I kind of
said earlier, it's kind of likelearning about an era that I was
part of, but also wasn't a partof in so many ways.
Um you described the era asbeing volatile.
Can you give kind of like a Idon't know, like a snapshot of
what that meant behind thescenes?
(13:27):
And I know that was a big partof it, but um some other
scenarios and types of thingsthat was going on in that time
frame.
SPEAKER_03 (13:35):
When I was hired by Crown Zaling back, um they hired
me to buy wood waste fromsawmills for two paper mills on
in Puget Sands.
And as soon as all their pulpmills went on strike, there were
like 19 pulp mills in the wholeWestern US that went on strike,
(13:57):
you had contracts with sawmillsthat you had to take their wood
waste.
And so I wasn't ready, but theysaid, you gotta go, you gotta go
deal with this.
So I was pretty well thrown intodealing with the sawmills
because we had a contract totake their waste.
What am I gonna do with it?
I don't need it, and so I had tofind places to stockpile it.
(14:21):
I had to do whatever I could tokeep the sawmills running
because they would appreciatethat.
Sure.
But at the same time, I didn'tneed it, and so it was a very
complex uh situation.
Then you stockpile it, and thenyou have to pick it back up and
use it when now the pulp millsdon't need it.
So it was it was one or theother.
(14:42):
I uh you may not remember in the80s, the prime rate interest
rate hit 20%, and the housingloan rate hit 18.5%.
So housing was in the tubes, theworld paper market was hot, and
they needed more chips, and thesawmill shut down, and so it was
(15:03):
crazy.
And then six months later, theopposite.
So it was always um trying tofigure out figure out what to
do.
And there's this great bookwritten by uh Charles Keppner
and Ben Benjamin Trego calledKeppner Trego.
Best advice on negotiating Iever had, thank God.
(15:25):
I read it in college.
You do this, this, this, youfigure out what you're gonna do,
and then for everything youdidn't think about, come up with
five things that might happenthat would blow your mind.
And I tell you during the 80sthey happened.
Yeah, wow.
And then pick 10 things youcould do if that happens.
(15:47):
So you've already anticipatedwhat you're gonna do if the
crazy thing happened and thecrazy thing happened.
SPEAKER_01 (15:55):
Wow, yeah, everything crazy that could
happen did happen, right?
SPEAKER_03 (16:00):
Oh my goodness.
Anybody in business, just it'sum the rational, the new
rational manager.
It's just packed full of stufflike that.
SPEAKER_01 (16:11):
Yeah, and uh again, you know, this is an era where
it's a male-dominated field.
All of the workforces for themost part were male dominated.
Women in those fields wereusually secretaries and you
know, kind of subservient lesserroles, not running, you know,
(16:31):
not doing what you were doing.
What was, you know, your mom, ofcourse, was super supportive and
encouraging.
Uh, you said you were, Ibelieve, married at the at that
time.
Um, what was your husband'sreaction to all of this?
Because you had to have been,you know, for the the tough
exterior that you had to put onat work when you got home, you
know, you were, I would, I wouldimagine, able to kind of let
(16:54):
that down a little bit, inventand say, Oh, they're saying
this, they're doing this, theyhad me do this.
You know, what was his reactionand response to the world that
you were kind of thrust into?
SPEAKER_03 (17:06):
We had been married 20 years before I got that job.
And he was working for Bell Labsas an engineer.
He told all our friends andfamily, I'm retiring now.
Mary's got a good job.
Wow.
Oh my god.
So I didn't share anything withhim.
(17:27):
But after I was working suchlong hours, he started having an
affair with my neighbor lady.
SPEAKER_00 (17:33):
Oh boy.
SPEAKER_03 (17:35):
We have an airplane which we used to fly all around
the country, but uh I would Icame home one day and the the
lounge chairs were out in thegrass and Sun Tan Lotion was
there, and two wine glasses andthey were in the dishwasher.
I don't I this is not workingout well for me.
Yeah.
One day I got home and I said,How was your day?
(17:57):
And he said, Oh, Diana and Iflew up to the San Juan Islands
and had lunch.
I went.
That's I'm done.
SPEAKER_01 (18:06):
I love my favorite part, and I have two favorite
parts about that story rightnow.
One, that you're laughing.
I love that.
And two, that it was just socasual that you said, Well, we
had a plane that we flew around.
You know that's not what most ofus have in our driveway, right?
We don't have a plane that wehave.
I love the casualness of, yeah,we would just hop on the plane
(18:29):
and fly around.
Yeah, I love that.
Um, I you know, it's so clear tome that your attitude of of
perseverance and just strengthjust shines right through.
Like nothing is gonna take youdown.
And and I, and that that is soclear to me that that is
probably one of the biggestbesides your obvious intellect,
(18:53):
um, your your tenacity itdefinitely shines through that
nothing was gonna, and you'reyou're I wouldn't say that it's
probably not fair to say thatyou were an anomaly uh for the
time, but you probably were moreunique.
Were you also surrounded bybeside your mom, uh other women
of the same mindset, or wereyour girlfriends at the time?
(19:16):
Like, what are you doing?
SPEAKER_03 (19:18):
I didn't have time for anything.
SPEAKER_01 (19:20):
No, no time whatsoever.
You're too busy.
Yeah, I get that.
SPEAKER_03 (19:23):
Yeah, when I decided to go to college, I thought I'm
going three years round, roundyou know, all year round because
I'm not here to party, I'm hereto get somewhere.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (19:33):
What would you say if you could say something?
And I know we're in a differentworld right now, but um, when
you look back at the culture ofthose workplaces, what would
shock younger women today themost?
Because they're so they maybedon't believe that they are, but
they are so protected now in somany ways, whereas you certainly
were not, and your you know,counterparts uh in the the
(19:56):
workforce like that were not.
What do you is there anythingyou didn't come up with that
would just shock them to thecore right now.
SPEAKER_03 (20:05):
They're already going through shock.
Yeah.
In a male-dominated industry,it's a male-dominated industry.
I mean, they're nicer andthey're sweeter, but they also
uh um can be a little forward inif you're here in this job,
surely, you know, come home withme and rub my back, kind of
things like that.
(20:26):
And the the advice I have forany woman in business like that
is always stick to the business.
Don't respond to what they'resaying, go back to price, go
back to inventory, go back tothe business.
And they get tired and they go,okay, okay, well, do the
business.
SPEAKER_01 (20:43):
Right, right.
Yeah.
And so, and you know, and thatis such the cliche trap of any
um business relationship.
Of course, you know, businessesnow are, you know, the majority.
I'm sure there's still a fewthat are um, you know, so male
dominated, but overall, youknow, most of the professions
are are commingled andeverything.
Um, but that is absolutely oneof the biggest cliches, the
(21:06):
office romances that always gosouth and always become a
problem.
And, you know, we are still asadvanced as we are, uh, we still
are attached to those, thosetraditional mindsets that it's
always the woman that getsbranded, right?
And if, you know, and that hasnot changed.
I don't care what anybody says,that has not changed.
(21:28):
They're not talking about theguy and calling her nasty names
and you know, um, implying thatshe sleeps around and all of
that stuff.
Or if they do say it, they'rehe's getting a pat on the back
and she's getting, you know, theevil eye.
Um, but yes, I that is so true,and that holds still today,
true.
That just don't do it, don't getinvolved, stay on task on the
(21:54):
job.
That's like the best adviceever.
SPEAKER_03 (21:57):
It is.
And one of the thingscorporations do now is they have
lawyers that make you sign anagreement every year.
You are not gonna do this,you're gonna stay on business,
and and that helps a lot.
SPEAKER_01 (22:09):
Yeah, definitely, definitely.
Now, because you didn't reallyhave again any of those real
protections, no, you know,nobody in HR looking out for
your your benefit there, werethere times where you felt like
throwing in the towel and justbeing done with it, or did it
just make you kind of sink inharder, deeper?
(22:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (22:30):
I'm not gonna let anybody stop me from doing this
job.
I I will find a way, I'll find away.
You know, when I first went upto Puget Sound, um the person
who was the wood fiber supplybuyer that I was becoming had
been retired three months.
And so uh the pulp mill managerwanted control over my job, but
(22:50):
Portland had control over myjob.
So he tried everything to get meto quit.
He complained to Portland, hejust did everything, and they
knew what he was doing.
The person that helped so muchwhen I got up there, he gave the
they gave me an office in thebasement.
Oh next to the janitor.
(23:12):
Showing you the love there.
It was so funny.
And the janitor had all the newsabout everything that's ever
happened and who was who and whowas doing what.
I we had the greatestconversation, so I just I just
knew everything.
The manager still wished that umhe could get rid of me because
he wanted my job under himbecause it was it was 30 million
(23:37):
dollars a year that I spent fortheir money.
SPEAKER_00 (23:39):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (23:40):
Um so anyway, I I have always talked to the people
you wouldn't talk to.
I'll talk to the scale scalehealth manager, I'll talk to the
truck driver who's in theparking lot, I'll talk to
anybody that can tell me thingsthat are going on in the
business that I might not know.
So I was always gatheringinformation.
SPEAKER_01 (24:02):
I just I'm just blown away at how savvy you
were, like just soknowledgeable, like
instinctually knowledgeable.
And of course, I know you havethe the college degrees and
everything and that type oftraining, but the instinct is
something I don't know if it canbe taught because it's instinct,
(24:23):
like you just knew uh thatthat's such a gift, and and if
you could bottle it and sell itto people, right?
You'd be a a trillionairebecause it's it's such a
valuable, um it's such an aval avaluable ability to have to be
able to read people, to know adifferent way to approach
(24:44):
things.
And and of course, in in thatworld, you you kind of it was
either sink or swim, right?
Like that was that was it.
You had to do it.
Incredible.
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (24:55):
And I think some women, maybe just some new
people, and just don't want toask the hard questions because
they don't want to show peoplethey don't know anything.
Yes.
I was asking everybody abouteverything.
And I was thinking, you know,when I finally left PewTit
Sound, um got a job inCalifornia, same type of job
(25:16):
buying wood, but it was for awood firedpower plant that used
a hundred semi-trockloads a dayof wood waste seven days a week.
And the company that owned ithad a had a consultant do a
report, and the report said, Oh,you can get all that wood within
90 miles of the power plant.
(25:37):
Why in the world?
Most of that wood went to Japanbecause it was wood for paper.
Oh it was an amazing experience.
Yeah.
So things happened that I justdug in, hired a couple people
in, and we asked everybody abouteverything.
I even brought in chips fromMontana to California.
(26:00):
Wow.
Brought in a huge barge of chipsfrom Vancouver, Canada into San
Francisco.
I mean, whatever it took, we'regonna do it.
SPEAKER_01 (26:08):
Did you get pushback on that?
I mean, because were youthinking outside of the box,
even with those ideas?
Like were that that was just allyou came up with that, you said
this is what we're gonna do.
Was there pushback on that?
It could be on because it soundslike it was out of the box a
little bit.
SPEAKER_03 (26:24):
Yeah, it was because um I worked for another company
for this plant.
And if we didn't do it, if wedidn't get them uh chips and
sawdust and all that, majorpenalties.
And so at one point, it was onlylike three months into the job,
my boss, who was a VP downsouth, said, You need to cancel
(26:46):
that part of the contract, youneed to get the contract amended
that uh took us off the hook forpenalties.
I said, but then I'll lose myjob.
He goes, Well, you know, that'sthe way it goes.
And I I did it, and it wasgreat.
Wow.
That's wild.
I talked to them about how muchrevenue they would lose from PG
(27:08):
and if I ran them out of wood.
SPEAKER_05 (27:10):
Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_01 (27:12):
And they went, oh suddenly their eyes were opened
very wide, right?
unknown (27:20):
It was.
SPEAKER_03 (27:21):
And one of the fun stories, if you don't mind, is
with Sierra Pacific Industries,the biggest uh forest landowner
and owner of sawmills in thecountry.
Their owner was Red Emerson,historic figure in in the
industry.
He was building a small logsawmill about 10 miles from the
(27:42):
power plant before we started.
So I went to him and I said, youknow, I'd like to buy the wood
waste that you're gonna have,about 15 loaves a day.
I needed 100, but that was good.
And uh and he said, Well, it'sgonna cost you.
And I said, Well, here's themarket.
And he goes, Oh no, no, no, II'm gonna keep the wood waste.
And so I hired a log buyer andwe started buying logs and
(28:05):
chipped them up.
Well, I didn't need his woodwaste.
And a few months later he calledme and says, Okay, okay, I'm
ready to sell it to you.
So I all these contracts younegotiate every three months,
every three months, 60contracts.
Anyway, so uh I would go in andmeet with Red, and I knew what
(28:30):
was going on in the market, andI we would talk and he would go,
Oh, you're right, price shouldgo up or down, whatever.
Well, when um he retired, and Iwent to a another position, and
I saw his vice presidentdowntown one day, and I said,
Oh, how's Red doing?
He says, Oh, he's doing great,but I'll tell you what, every
(28:52):
time he hears your name, hegoes, That darn woman never left
a dime on the table.
SPEAKER_01 (28:57):
And I thought, so a little pat on the shoulder
there, a pat on the back, right?
So, yeah, so obviously you wereyou were a master negotiator.
I mean, that definitely was youryou know, big part of your forte
there.
Um, tell me about you havesomething called the plain
(29:17):
vanilla approach.
Explain that and and how thatworks so well.
SPEAKER_03 (29:23):
When I hired a log buyer who was recommended to me
as a good good guy, goodnegotiator.
I said, okay, well, go here andtalk to these people about logs.
And and I I kind of had afeeling like, okay, I'm gonna go
with you.
I'm not gonna say anything, I'mgonna go with you.
So we walk into this manager'soffice, and on the back wall
(29:46):
were pictures of fish, everykind of fish you could think of,
every kind of stream, his wallwas full of fishing pictures.
And my log buyer, instead ofignoring it because it's a it's
uh an intimidation thing, hegoes to the fish and he goes,
Where did you catch these?
Tell me the stories.
I'm like, Oh my god.
You don't do that, they'reintimidating you with pictures
(30:08):
like that.
Then then you become buddies,and then you can't get the good
price, and then you know, so Iwent back to my office and I
thought, how did I what did Ireally learn?
And so I wrote down my 10 tipsand he read them and he was
totally blown away.
And within two months, he wasreally a good negotiator.
(30:30):
And so I put it in the bookbecause I think many women are
intimidated by negotiation.
I mean, there's so many ways.
Um, there's an example of thisone sawmill I went to when I
came to California, and uh theyushered me into the manager's
office, which tells you hethinks highly of himself, and it
(30:52):
was very dark in there, and hesaid, sit down in front of my
desk.
And immediately I was six incheslower than he was.
So he's looking down at me.
Yeah, first red flag.
Second was there were animalheads from every animal in
Africa you can think of, allaround the room.
(31:12):
I ignored it.
He's like looking around theroom, he's like and I went right
to business, right to business.
Yeah, well, that wasn't working.
So he said, let's go sit in thecorner of the office where
there's two chairs and a lampand a table in between.
Sat down there, and he's waitingfor me to say something because
(31:34):
the lamp was made out of azebra's leg.
SPEAKER_01 (31:38):
Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_03 (31:40):
I ignored it.
Yeah, straight to business.
He he gave up.
SPEAKER_01 (31:45):
Oh, you drove him crazy.
You destroyed every tactic thathe tried to use against you.
Oh my goodness.
Yeah.
How did you know?
Was that instinct?
Was that had you taken a course?
Did you like did you justintuitively know and understand
what he was what he was tryingto do?
SPEAKER_03 (32:06):
Well, when I initially started, it it would
didn't take me but a couple ofweeks to realize most of the men
I was gonna negotiate love tointimidate women.
This is bull, I'm not gonna dothat.
And so I started reading moreabout negotiation.
And Ketna Trigo is really goodabout that in your book.
And um, and so I knew if they'retrying to intimidate you, you're
(32:28):
gonna lose.
And there's no way I'm gonna dothat.
SPEAKER_01 (32:33):
Oh, I love that.
I knew I knew right from theget-go, I liked you, like right
off the bat.
I'm like, oh, she's so likeyou're just such a a great role
model for young women to goinginto business.
And um, I I just can you teachus all a course?
Can you get like I'm not evengoing into business?
(32:53):
Like, I just this is what I do,you know.
I do I do mostly all my stuff bymyself, but I still feel like I
just want to know the thingsthat you know, you know, if if
you can teach what you knowintuitively, and of course, that
you've learned uh through yourexperiences and all of that,
it's so beneficial, such a gamechanger.
Oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_03 (33:13):
My 10 tips, it's interesting.
Uh in California, I met a womanwho ran a church that I we
really became good friends.
And her husband was aninstructor at um one of the
colleges near Sacramento.
And his wife said, You ought toread Mary's 10 tips of
negotiation.
And he read it and went, God,half of these I didn't even
(33:35):
think about.
He sent it to a person who uhtaught negotiation at San Diego
State, and he goes, There aresome things here I didn't think
about.
So I thought, for some reason,anybody can buy the book and
send the appendix.
SPEAKER_01 (33:49):
Yes, yes, absolutely.
Buy that book that's a gamechanger.
And because so much of it is, Imean, probably all of it is
psychology.
It's just psychology and and youknow, behavior uh uh analysis
and all this, and be able toread body language, you know,
all of those things that, youknow, there are people out
(34:11):
there, there are behavioralscientists or are, you know,
learning this and teaching this.
And and it is, you know, to beable to know to do these things,
it just changes the wholeplaying field for, you know,
anyone who understands all ofthat.
And, you know, again, we'retalking and I keep harping on
it, guys, because it's such adifferent time, it's such a
(34:34):
different mentality, everything.
This was back in the 80s thatyou were figuring all of this
out.
It's just uh it just blows mymind.
Now, um, did you have likethroughout any of this, did you
have any kind of mentor who waskind of like guiding you in any
way?
Or it was just just like ahundred percent your upbringing
(34:58):
and your just intuitiveknowledge?
SPEAKER_03 (35:01):
Well, at Crown Zeller Back, they had um several
pulp mills in the Northwest, andevery three or four months, we
all the wood fiber buyers wouldget together and we would
compare notes.
What do you think the market'sgonna do?
What are you gonna do if thishappens, and so on.
And the chip buyer, we call themchip buyers, uh, they were very
helpful, very helpful, gettingme on my feet.
(35:23):
They were nice that I was there.
My boss was as helpful as hecould be, so that was nice.
They didn't, well, they did,they were helpful, but when the
mills went on strike, theyneeded somebody in Puget Sam
because the buyer had beenretired three months.
So they said, sorry to dump youup there, but there you are.
(35:43):
Here you go, right?
Yeah.
So these barges were sitting atthe dock and being unloaded, and
I called it was Foss Launch andTug.
Tug was the name of the company.
So I called and I said, Whereare these barges coming from?
Because I had no idea.
Nobody, and so their um mainsupervisor came over the next
(36:04):
day and went over all of it withme.
Trying to have these truckscoming in.
Nobody could tell me wherethey're coming from.
So I called the trucking companyand Gary Dynas, bless his heart,
came over and he took me for twodays around to every mill I was
getting uh wood waste from.
Told me complexity, you know,all the things that go wrong.
(36:26):
And so I had some really greatpeople in the industry.
Nice, very helpful.
SPEAKER_01 (36:33):
Just random.
How many mills was that?
Was like how many mills were yougoing to at that point for that?
SPEAKER_03 (36:39):
60 contracts.
SPEAKER_01 (36:40):
Oh wow, okay.
SPEAKER_03 (36:41):
And so, you know, some are small, some are big.
SPEAKER_05 (36:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (36:45):
But every one of them was working, depending on
the market.
They'd be shut down for twoweeks on one shift, on three
shifts, on no shift.
It was just yeah, anyway, it'svery volatile.
SPEAKER_01 (36:58):
Wow, I know.
I'm just I'm just awed by itall.
Um, tell me, I know there,there, I I can tell you you love
to laugh and you have a greatsense of humor.
And I would love to know if youcan think of maybe something
from the book, if it's in thebook and you're willing to share
a little snippet.
Uh, what what's one of thefunnier memories that you have
(37:19):
of that time that still kind ofmakes you laugh a little bit?
SPEAKER_03 (37:23):
Oh, uh in the Port Angeles pulp mill.
They really resented me being abuyer.
So they did everything to keepme away.
And the manager gave hiscontroller charge of all the
wood waste.
Well, it wasn't two weeks laterthat the controller went on
vacation and the whole mill wentto hell.
(37:44):
I mean, they ran out ofHogfield, they ran out of, they
were like one day away fromrunning out of wood to make
paper out of.
I happened to stop by and said,just say hi.
He goes, Do you see what's goingon out there?
And I said, Oh yeah, yeah, I do.
Can you fix it?
I went, of course.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (38:06):
Sure I can.
Of course I can do that.
SPEAKER_03 (38:11):
That afternoon, I mean it's a God thing, actually.
That afternoon, a landowner westof Port Angeles called me and he
said, I years ago, nobody couldget rid of their hot fuel.
So I let them fill up a valleyon my property with it.
I heard you're a little short.
Come out here and dig it up.
(38:32):
So within 24 hours, I had afront-end loader, self-unloading
trucks, and we were bringing allthat hot fuel in, and you know,
I just had to laugh.
And the manager looked at me andsaid, Can you give me a plan of
how you do this and I'll let youdo it?
(38:53):
I said, Of course.
SPEAKER_01 (38:55):
Of course I can do that.
Jay, I'm having a hard timewondering where you came up with
the title for this.
Oh, I love it.
So your yes, I can came beforeyou even knew if you could,
right?
Like that's that's kind of likethe gist of it.
Like, yes, I can do that.
You're gonna give the answer ofyes, I can, and then you're
(39:19):
gonna figure out how you can doit after the fact, right?
SPEAKER_03 (39:21):
Exactly.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (39:22):
I love that.
SPEAKER_03 (39:23):
Calling people, even competitors.
One time I was looking for abarge of sawdust, and we were
gonna run, it takes a mix ofchips and soddists to make
paper, and we were gonna run outin two days.
And I'm like, God, I can't finda barge of sawdust anywhere.
My competitor called me and hesaid, There's a barge of sawdust
here that they don't need.
And I called it up and got itthe next day.
(39:45):
So a lot of you know, helpingeach other.
Yeah, home office.
SPEAKER_01 (39:52):
Yeah, I did not expect that the help would be
there like that from thecompetitor.
So that's actually pretty cool.
That's a that's a nice Nicesurprise there.
SPEAKER_03 (40:01):
Well, it takes a level of respect for each other.
SPEAKER_01 (40:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's really nice.
Now, when you were going throughthese letters, because that that
in itself had to be such anexperience to be re-reading
those letters all over again.
Oh my goodness.
It it just had to have taken youback into that that time, that
(40:27):
that mindset and and all of thethings.
Um, tell me a little bit aboutwhat that was like for you to
take these letters and now, youknow, of course, the whole
rereading them and revisitingthe that time.
Um, what was it like for youputting it together in book
form?
What did you find it easy,challenging, a mixture of both,
(40:50):
fun, terrifying, daunting,anything?
SPEAKER_03 (40:54):
All of the above.
All of the above.
And I put them away because Ireally didn't want to read them.
Six months later, I thought,okay, get them out.
And I thought, okay, type themup for posterity.
And it was 123 type pages.
SPEAKER_05 (41:10):
Wow.
SPEAKER_03 (41:10):
And that's my memoir.
Yeah, wow.
And I I wanted it to berealistic, and it was almost
word for word.
I left out when our neighborscame over for dinner and stuff
like that.
But anything about business?
Because she wanted to know.
SPEAKER_01 (41:26):
Yeah, yeah, that's cool.
Your mom sounds like she was uha bit of an uh innovator, a
little bit of an outside of thebox thinker for the time, also.
So it sounds like it was wellpassed down.
I I think that's so wonderful.
SPEAKER_03 (41:43):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (41:45):
Um, let's see.
What else do I ask you?
We're there's so many greatthings.
I asked you about your funnymoments.
I love that.
I asked you about your mentor.
You know, we live in a worldobsessed with buzzwords like
female empowerment.
Um, but you actually live that.
That was your reality.
Like you were female empowermentbefore it was a buzzword.
(42:08):
Um, what do modern conversationsabout women and leadership get
right?
And what do they get wrong, inyour opinion?
SPEAKER_03 (42:16):
It I think it's the simple part.
Anytime you're trying to be inthey're trying to intimidate
you, just realize that.
And if you go along with it,you're gonna lose whatever it is
that you're negotiating for.
But also when it gets personal,um how many times I was somebody
(42:37):
had a sore back and wanted me tocome home with them to because
his wife had him, blah blahblah.
No, stay with the business.
And they respect that.
You know, then they don't do itagain, which is the bad part.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (42:51):
Yeah, absolutely.
That's so true.
Um, if your if the if your bookwere to become a required
reading in business schools,let's just imagine that it did.
Um, what would be the singlelesson you hope that they take
away from it?
SPEAKER_03 (43:12):
Know your market, know the people in the market in
every position you can, becausesometimes it's the guy that
moves the barge to the dockthat's got more information than
anybody or the janitor.
Talk to everybody.
Don't think they're low enoughnot to talk to you.
Just build your build yourframework of I know the pulse of
(43:34):
everything that's going on.
Because in Puget Sound, forinstance, negotiating 60
contracts every three months, Ihad to do it quickly, so I had
to know everything.
What every sawmill was doing,what every every every every
inventory at the pump mills, umwere all the trucks running,
were all the barges running, Ihad all the stuff.
So I had about 15 things thatwere on my checklist to know
(43:57):
what is the current condition.
And my uh winning point on thatis at one point I told my boss
in Portland, chips were runningaround$100 a ton.
I think I can get them down 30%.
And he goes, ah, no, no, no, no,no.
And he checked with the otherchip buyers and they go, Oh,
Mary, that's ridiculous.
(44:20):
I said, I'll bet you each crownroyal that I'll get it done.
And they said, Hey, piece ofcake, you you won't get that.
So I um met with the key majorsupplier, and he only gave me 15
minutes to tell my story, and hetried to put coals in it.
(44:43):
Yeah, after 15 minutes, he goes,damn, sorry.
SPEAKER_00 (44:47):
It's okay.
SPEAKER_03 (44:49):
Okay, okay.
So I had five fifths of crownthe room.
SPEAKER_01 (44:55):
That's pretty awesome.
And and by the way, you know, Iam I'm well aware what a
male-dominated world would soundlike and and can sound like.
So I just want to commend youfor not having that that trucker
mouth on because if you do, youkept that in check this whole
(45:16):
time.
It it has taken me, uh, I I'm inthe I'm in the very, very
difficult process of learninghow to not swear, by the way,
and I'm failing miserably mostof the time.
So yeah, that it just you gaveme a chuckle with that because I
I could just imagine what thosethe language sounded like.
(45:37):
So if you were a um, you know,just a sweet young innocent girl
of the 80s being dropped intothat world with the kind of
language and and mentality thatwas probably just a matter of
course for the for the era, um,it probably would have been
quite the eye-opener.
So fortunately, you were unfazedlike you were.
SPEAKER_05 (46:02):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (46:03):
Oh my goodness.
Mary, um, tell everyone wherethey can find your book.
And if you're doing, I don't,I'm sorry, I I don't know if
you're doing any book signingappearances, but if you are,
feel free to let people knowwhere you're gonna be and where
you can find you and all thatgood stuff.
SPEAKER_03 (46:17):
Well, this is uh we're just at the beginning of
the publishing, and right nowit's on Kindle on Amazon, and
within two weeks, the paperbackwill be available, then the
hardback, and then the audio.
So it'll all be the it's all beunfolding over this next month.
And um it's it's very, veryexciting.
So we'll see how it comes.
SPEAKER_01 (46:38):
Wonderful.
I'm so excited for you.
I'm excited, even more than I'mexcited for you.
I'm excited for the people whoread this book, and and I am
going to very strongly encouragethat it becomes some curriculum
in a business school because itsounds like it is delivered in a
way that would resonate andreally mean something instead of
like just dry, you know, manualmaterial.
(47:02):
So yeah, I you know, I'm gonnavote for that if I could.
If I if I could, I would.
You did.
You just there.
I put it out into the universe,so you know.
SPEAKER_03 (47:14):
Oh I think if anybody in college right now has
a chance to take a negotiationcourse, they should.
Business writing, oh, that's abig one.
Gotta learn the businesswriting.
And um dealing with people,dealing with difficult people,
that's really important.
SPEAKER_01 (47:32):
And and you know, I think more than ever right now,
um, that is a a lacking skillbecause we we've hit a point in
time where uh where our our egosand our ourselves, I'm
generalizing, um, are veryfragile and we we are not
capable.
We're we haven't been raisingyoung adults capable of handling
(47:55):
those situations.
So find a way, guys, becauseyou're gonna need it if you want
to be playing in the real world.
If you want to play with the bigdogs, you better figure it out,
kids.
SPEAKER_05 (48:06):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (48:08):
Oh, Mary, again, thank you so much for coming on
the show today.
Uh, I enjoyed learning all aboutthis, and and I can't wait to
check out your book.
And uh guys, everyone watchingand listening, they will be the
uh link for the book will be inthe show notes, and you'll be
able to find everything aboutMary Mitchell and her book uh
(48:28):
right there.
So uh make sure you do.
And after you read it, make sureyou go and review it on Amazon.
We ask you guys this everychance we get because it is so
critically important to helpother people find the book.
So, Mary, thank you again forcoming on the show.
I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_03 (48:44):
I so appreciate you, and it's been totally
delightful.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (48:47):
Oh, good.
I'm so glad.
Take care, and we'll see youguys next week.
SPEAKER_02 (48:52):
From small town love stories to battles of truth and
loyalty, Elsa Kurt's booksfollow the same heartbeat.
Ordinary people facingextraordinary moments.
You'll find romance, drama,second chances, even a peek
behind the microphone in anewest release.
Multiple genres, differentworlds, same thread.
Old truth, real face, nopolitics.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.