Have you ever felt the constrictive grip of high control environments on your personal freedom and questioned where real safety is found? Gentle Business Coach Ashley Beaudin unravels her own journey through the rigid structures of a Pentecostal church and into the tumultuous world of online entrepreneurship. Together, we traverse a landscape peppered with challenges including external authority, the relentless pursuit of hustle over rest, and the complex interplay between emotional health and business success.
Navigating the treacherous waters of personal agency can be daunting, especially when external voices attempt to steer the ship. In our rich conversation, we dissect the impact of 'good girl' programming, probe the importance of listening to our body's wisdom, and embrace the art of finding balance amidst the intense pressures to overcommit. Ashley's raw narrative on the quest for self-sufficiency serves as a beacon for anyone looking to reclaim their autonomy from the clutches of external validation.
We explore the dance between power dynamics, ethical marketing, and authentic human connection. Our discussion peels back the layers of manipulative power dynamics in both religious and entrepreneurial spaces, examining how these forces can both empower and ensnare. Ashley, the Gentle Business Coach, leaves us with a refreshing perspective on forging genuine relationships in business, steering clear of manipulation, and nurturing an environment of safety and consent.
Resources:
In this episode, we reference a post that Ashley shared on Instagram. You can find that post HERE.
Ashley Beaudin helps gentle hearts create a business that feels safe, so that they can find ease, care + results in their work. She holds the heart of a coach and is known for her compassionate presence and soul-stirring voice. When she is not holding space, you can find her discovering new donuts or cold swimming in the river.
Connect with Ashley:
Kat HoSoo Lee is an Emotional Alchemy Coach, Spiritual Business Mentor and host of The Emotional Alchemy Podcast.
She loves playing in the space where science and spirituality converge because this is where we get to experience emotional alchemy. In her work, she educates space-holders about somatic physiology and environmental biology so they can deepen their practices of listening and presence which ultimately helps them expand their capacity to hold space for others.
As a Spiritual Business Mentor, she guides soulful entrepreneurs to approach their business as a spiritual practice. The work bridges the emotional landscape with practical tools which allow them to cultivate businesses that are rooted in conscious values, relational marketing and purposeful service.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kat HoSoo Lee (00:01):
Hello and welcome to the Empowered Curiosity Post
.
Oh, actually, I'm going to saythat again because I've changed
the name of my podcast.
Here we go Hello and welcome tothe Rooted Business Podcast,
and today I've got a new friendon.
(00:22):
His name is Ashley, and I'vebeen quiet following you, ashley
, for a little while, and a fewmonths back you posted something
on Instagram that just like wasso juicy and it's not a concept
that I am super familiar with,and so I thought you're the
(00:44):
perfect person to have you comeon and unpack this, mostly
because I kind of want to learnabout it myself, and so I'll
just read the post out loud,real quick, just to give people
context for why and where ourconversation is going.
So you start out by saying oftenthose who have been involved in
(01:05):
high control or abusivereligious settings find a home
in online entrepreneurshipbecause it mimics familiar
dynamics, already Oof.
And then you have thisbeautiful like side by side
comparison of religious settingshave externalized authority in
church leadership.
Online entrepreneurship hasexternalized authority and
(01:28):
experts.
Religious settings bypass yourbody as it's not holy.
Online entrepreneurshipbypasses your body as it's not
valuable.
Religious settings hustle tobelong to the community.
Online entrepreneurship hustleto be a success among your peers
.
Religious settings if you don'tgive financially, you are not
devout, or devout Onlineentrepreneurship if you do not
(01:52):
invest in your business, youaren't serious Religious
settings, public shaming forcertain sins and online
entrepreneurship cancel culturefor certain mistakes, and so
that's what we're going to talkabout today.
So, thank you, thank you somuch for being here.
Ashley Beaudin (02:12):
Yeah, I'm honored honestly honored to be
here.
Kat HoSoo Lee (02:16):
So you know, in the intro folks got a chance to
like get your bio, but can yougive us a little bit of context
for what your history is withthis particular topic, what your
upbringing was, because Iimagine that it's.
It's a lot different from minebecause I grew up in in church,
(02:37):
but not to the extent that itfelt like it was really
traumatizing.
Yeah, yeah, give me, give me alittle bit of you.
Ashley Beaudin (02:45):
Yeah Well, and I think, yeah, that's, it's
definitely like information thatwould not be in the traditional
bio in.
So I'm excited to you, I'mexcited to have this
conversation.
This is something that I'vebeen reflecting on for a long
time, and I think anyone who'sbeen interviewed I think
sometimes interviews like justhave this ability to like pull
(03:08):
things out of you that have beenstewing inside and so this has
been definitely a journey thatI've been unpacking personally,
you know, specifically aroundlike the impacts of some of the
environments that I grew up in,and then, through that unpacking
(03:29):
, was starting to seesimilarities in some of the, I
guess, the toxicity that I hadstumbled into in online
entrepreneurship earlier in myjourney, and so, to give a
little bit of context for how Igrew up in more of the religious
setting, I was someone who hada lot of trauma early in life,
(03:58):
you know, really struggled tofind the sense of safety, and I
could not find it in my home,and so church rescued me.
Church became a place where Ifelt safe.
It was the safest place I knew.
As you know, in my early teenageyears Because of that, I became
(04:26):
may have murdered and fixated,and I wanted to be there all the
time.
I wanted to be at home, I wantedto be a church.
Because of that I really becameswept up, I would say, in the
culture and what I was learningand because there was this
(04:47):
visceral sense of like theseneeds that are very real to me
are not being met at home, itjust became like a deeper and
deeper entrenchment.
And so I went to a Pentecostalchurch and I would say, on the
(05:11):
spectrum of like you know, likezero control to high control, I
wouldn't say it was like on theextreme end of the power and
dominance over my life, but itwas more, in some ways, what
feels at times more dangerous isthe more subtle way of
(05:34):
submission and disconnectionfrom myself.
And so I got really swept up inthat from the time I was around
14 to probably my mid-20s.
There was a lot of intensitythere for me and I honestly,
(06:02):
because it was such like a safespace for me, it was like it
took me a really long time toprocess it because I was like
don't touch that, because if Ifigure out like that that's not
safe, then what is.
It's gonna shake me a little bitright.
So it's kind of a I mean, Ithink that's kind of the
(06:26):
beautiful work of healing, ofdiscovering that at the end of
the day can you cultivate thatsafe place in you and the purity
that I've been on.
So that gives it's a little bitof history.
Kat HoSoo Lee (06:40):
Yeah can I ask what shifted in that
relationship between you andchurch where you started feeling
like, oh, I do want to findthat safety within myself
instead of an external entity?
Ashley Beaudin (07:00):
Yeah, it was a really slow process.
It wasn't like a light bulbmoment, let's go, and a lot of
my story has to do with find,discovering ways of coping that
really came into contrast withwhat belongs in a church, and so
(07:25):
I've shared about this a lotpublicly about it's been thrown.
I've used a lot of names for itsex addiction, shutting down
through sexting, all those typesof things, and when you have a
problem like that, when you havea problem like that, that
(07:46):
really conflicts with theculture of the church and
problem in air quotes.
Kat HoSoo Lee (07:53):
Yeah, yeah.
Ashley Beaudin (07:56):
So when I and then when I was like they're
like trying to fix me and I'mnot like getting better in like
one day or two weeks or a year,I was like I need, this place
isn't safe for me in the sameway that it once was.
And that's a little bit of adifficult thing to process,
(08:17):
because it can feel like you,it's your fault that it's no
longer safe, when in realityit's actually not your fault.
It's like the burden of thesystem.
Kat HoSoo Lee (08:36):
So one of the things that I find really
refreshing about the work thatyou share online is and this is
why I feel like there's a lot ofalignment in both of our works
is like somatics, nervous system, intuition lives in the body,
(09:00):
and so what is it about therelationship to like?
I kind of want to unpack thatone of the pieces that you
shared about.
You know, the wisdom isbasically cut off from your body
in both the coaching industryand in religion, so can you
(09:27):
unpack that a little bit?
Ashley Beaudin (09:29):
Yeah, yeah, I.
So in religion, in churchcontext, it was there's very
much the sense that I had oflike so much of the authority.
It does not come from me, butit comes from the pastor the
(09:50):
pastor, the leader or theleaders and I had gone into this
pattern and when I was ateenager, where I had, like,
really developed a mentorshipwith one of the prominent
pastors and I really struggledto make a decision on my own
(10:10):
about anything, I would thinkabout making a decision and I
would have to pass everything byhim, and it wasn't necessarily
a thing where he was like youhave to, which is that's what
makes things a little bitcomplicated for me, but it was
definitely the how it operatedinside of me of like tell me,
(10:33):
like is this okay, I don't wantto make a mistake.
Like tell me, if you tell me,this is the right decision.
On the same notion of like ifyou come at me and you say you
need to stop this, I would, Iwould do basically whatever he
said.
Yeah, a lot of power, yeah, overme.
And I felt that very reflectedbecause when I came into the
(10:58):
online business industry, I beenworried for myself since 2015,
and when I came in 2015, Ireally felt it prominent and
like there were this elite groupalmost of experts that everyone
followed and subscribed to youand if you just did everything
(11:20):
they said, if you followed thatplan step by step, right, you
would belong or you would havesuccess or you could be like
them.
Kat HoSoo Lee (11:30):
Yeah, I feel like that's how it still is.
Yeah, if you know, there's a Iactually don't follow a lot of
people on Instagram anymore.
I've like curated my feed tolike just the people that I want
to like connect with, and butbefore I did that, like there is
(11:51):
a lot of this like just tell mewhat to do, sort of energy and
and online coaches capitalizingon that, and so I can definitely
see how there is thatcorrelation in your life of you
know, I just want to do theright thing and instead of
(12:12):
looking within yourself tofigure out what is the most
genuine and authentic thing foryou, you know, asking an elder
in your church to make thosedecisions for you, and that's,
oh my gosh, let's.
I like look at my, my coachingclients now and it's like that's
(12:34):
the opposite of what I want todo for them, because it really
hits on that like I'm not enoughwound, I'm not wise enough, I'm
not smart enough, I'm not, youknow, hustling enough, like what
I like fill in the blank ofwhatever that is, and if you're
just stepping in instead ofteaching them how to listen to
their bodies, you know you'reyou're doing them a disservice.
Ashley Beaudin (13:01):
Yeah, I agree completely.
I agree to that.
Like I see it come up inclients all the time they're.
They're like just tell me whatto do, or do you think that I
should do this?
What do you think of this andthat?
That nudge, I guess, toredirect themselves can
(13:30):
sometimes as well feel prettyscary for people.
Yeah, of course, and I reallyunderstand that.
Kat HoSoo Lee (13:38):
Yeah, yeah, what I'm realizing now is we're
talking is, like you know, I Ididn't become like super
infatuated with the church, butlike the themes are the same, to
be honest, because, like I meanto to sort of simplify it, it's
(14:01):
almost like, good girl,programming is what we're
talking about here, and Icertainly, growing up, like
asked my parents to make a lotof decisions for me and they
took those decisions on becausethey thought that that was good
parenting, you know, versus likeencouraging me to problem solve
and look within myself and tryto come up with a decision, and
(14:23):
it's like like actually I hadthe opposite experience of if I
made a decision that I feltreally good about, they'd be
like, oh, that doesn't makesense, like why would you want
to do that?
And so I feel like I think Icame into this conversation
being like, well, teach me aboutreligion, program, religious
(14:44):
programming, and it's like no,these are universal things that
we're talking about.
You know, these are absolutelyuniversal things that we're
talking about here.
So, yeah, I'm curious about, Ifeel like I'm like you basically
just like wrote the outline forour talk here in that post.
(15:06):
So I'm like we're just gonna,we're just gonna go through each
of these and like to likeunpack each of them.
So you know we've coveredexternalized authority and
church leadership, bypassingyour body, as it's not valuable.
I think that the little piecethat I want to add there is
something that I practice thatyou know listeners might find
(15:26):
helpful is being really carefulabout giving advice.
As a practitioner, I'm notgonna say like advice is never
warranted, because I think thatit is warranted sometimes, but
for me the distinction is isthis person in a regulated state
?
Because if I sense that there'slike some nervous system
(15:51):
dysregulation, as they're likeasking for the advice, that
means that they've automaticallypushed that authority into me
instead of themselves, and sothen my role as a practitioner
is to, as you were saying, likeredirect and be like okay.
So where's that wisdom comingfrom within you so that you can
(16:13):
feel empowered to make thosedecisions for yourself?
Yeah.
And then that's a very, verydifferent energy from somebody
who's coming to me and I feellike they've done their nervous
system regulation work.
They're feeling really goodabout.
You know, I've narrowed it downto these like two things and I
just genuinely like want someadvice, and it's not coming from
a place where, like they'relike asking me to like make the
(16:35):
decision for them.
That's a very, very differentenergy, right, and so, like, if
just like on a practical levelas a coach you know sitting with
like being able to readpeople's nervous systems, I
think is really important sothat you can then dole out
whatever it is that they'rethey're asking for and looking
(16:57):
for in a way that's actuallyhealthy for them.
Ashley Beaudin (16:59):
Yeah, I love that, and I love even the
question of even posing thatquestion to them of based on,
maybe, what you're picking up on.
What are you really looking forhere?
Yeah, sometimes I think peopleare looking for.
(17:23):
People are looking for a senseof assurance or they want to
trust themselves, but that feelsscary.
They want acknowledgement, theywant to feel heard.
I mean, there can be so manythings.
(17:43):
This actually reminds me.
I've never connected thisbefore, but I had years ago when
I was like, really in church, Ihad heard someone say a lot of
times, when people are askingfor you to pray for them, what
they're really asking for is tobe heard, and I feel like we
(18:07):
could use that in the samecontext here of like, when
people are looking for advice,it is easier to ask for advice
than it is to ask to be heard.
Kat HoSoo Lee (18:20):
Yes, oh, I love that.
And if we I'm like for the flipflopping between client and
practitioner roles here, yeah Islike and here's a concept that
I hadn't really put together aswell is when a client starts
(18:45):
being really explicit and clearabout what it is that they're
needing from me.
I know we've like passed somesort of like threshold and
portal.
You know, I'm like I'm thinkingof a particular client right
now where, like she was reallyreally clear about like hey, I'm
(19:13):
asking for advice in thismoment, and like I didn't have
to prompt it and she even waslike I feel really good about
the decision that I've made, butI am just like honestly and
genuinely curious about what itis that you would have done in
this instance, and I love thatLike.
(19:33):
To me it's like like that personis acting in a very, very
sovereign way, in a way that'sreally powerful for them, and
then the conversation turns fromthis hierarchical dynamic where
I'm the expert and she is justthis like lowly person who like
can't make a decision forherself which obviously that's
(19:55):
not how I think about my clientsbut like, and rather it ends up
being like a collaborative, co,creative conversation where
it's like you know, we areoftentimes, I'll say, you know,
to my, my one on one clientslike I'm going to step into the
role of like co CEO of yourbusiness, and what that really
means is like like we're reallykind of like a close co CEO of
your business.
And what that really means islike like we're really going to
(20:18):
be in this like dynamic, dynamicconversation about what's best
for you and your business, andit's not coming from a place of
like you have to do it my wayand like follow my signature
program, you know yeah,absolutely.
I love that.
Yeah.
So this next piece, hustle.
(20:38):
Can we talk about hustle?
You talk about hustle to belongin the community, in the
religious setting, and you alsotalk about hustle to be a
success among your peers in theonline space.
Ashley Beaudin (20:48):
So talk to me a little bit about hustle, yeah so
I mean also, you know a lot ofthis is so like a lot of what I
had described in that is from myexperiences, and so my
experience in church is there'soften quite a demand for labor
(21:14):
to like volunteer or serve orput the work in, and on a base
level I understand it.
You know, like communitycontribute, but when I think
it's done which has often beenmy experience of a demand and if
(21:40):
you don't do it, like you,there's this like sense of shame
.
Or you know, I've heard thingsfrom from the front of the room
where it's like like if youhaven't signed up to volunteer,
(22:01):
like basically what's wrong withyou or you should feel guilty
because the rest of the churchis like holding it and you
aren't contributing.
What would really drive me alittle bit wild is when you have
(22:22):
like a lead pastor who hasthese gigantic ideas without
considering the care of thoseunderneath him in the church and
then it's like we have to dothis huge thing yeah, we don't
have enough people, but like wewe're going to do this.
(22:42):
Then the increases that sense ofpressure, increases the, the,
this culture of burnout and itcan be like a really difficult,
honestly, I think, a reallydifficult space to not submit to
all that, like all thatpressure and all that shaming,
(23:03):
it can run close into coercingthrough the culture of guilt and
manipulation, honestly, yeah,and so there, I've had a lot of
experiences of that and of beingsort of like where you're not
(23:26):
really like honoring yourboundaries.
You know you're like givingeverything you have, and that's
very encouraged.
And so then, to compare that toonline business I mean, anyone
who's been in online businessfor like two seconds knows that
there's major components ofhustle that can be present,
(23:52):
messaging around like reallyworking for it.
Kat HoSoo Lee (23:59):
Well, it's not even just like present.
It's validated and encouragedin a way that, like you know, I
personally found reallyuncomfortable when I first got
into the online space.
You know, like I, I think thereason why I started following
you is because your handle isgentle.
Business coach.
Ashley Beaudin (24:18):
Yeah.
Kat HoSoo Lee (24:19):
And like if that is the opposite of boss babe
Right, right, and I feel likethat was all that was out.
There is these boss babewannabes who really I don't know
(24:42):
like I could see that happeningin the corporate space, and
it's like, you know, youbasically just changed nothing
and like moved it into like anonline business where you're
working for yourself, but nowyou're the dictator, not the
corporation, you know.
(25:03):
And so I almost feel like weneed to have like a third column
in your, in your post, whereit's like what is the balanced
version of this?
So like, what is what is your?
And recognizing that this islike an ongoing practice and
relationship to like hustle andrest, like what is your version
(25:26):
of hustle now and how is thatlike a changing landscape for
you?
Ashley Beaudin (25:35):
Well, I would say that the like, as I was
reflecting on what you asked meand then what you shared, I
think, and what's reallysticking out to me is that in
these cultures of hustle, thatthere is a lot of shame present,
Like if you're not doing this,you're not doing enough, and so
(26:03):
I think that that that reallyopens up probably my a lot of my
perspective on the morebalanced way which would be
without shame and operatingreally out of you know, a
(26:26):
connected sense or self.
It really you can see, likethrough all of these I feel like
through all of these examples,like how connected they are all
to one another, but that likebeing able to check in with
myself, see where I'm at, honormy capacity, respond to what's
(26:48):
going on in my body at thatmoment.
Something I've been thinking alot about is because sometimes
what people can say is they'llsay, like general business, like
so I'll do nothing.
Basically it's not, it's notabout never working, but it's
(27:09):
about prioritizing your safetyand care to such a level that
you can work intentionally andwith clarity and responding,
working out of response, not toa sense of survival but to a
(27:29):
sense of connection andenthusiasm, and that was a big
thing for me being able todiscern the difference between,
I would say, the beginning of mybusiness like 90% of the time I
was working out of a state ofurgency, survival and that was
all I knew.
Like that was all I knew how todo.
(27:49):
Yeah, Now it's like being ableto shift into a place of working
that is responding to aninternal sense of safety and
enthusiasm, enjoy and delight.
And I think what's interestingis like which I'm curious how
(28:12):
you've seen this is that I endup obviously working with my
clients a lot on the unit shift.
And then a lot of times peoplewill say I wish, I almost wish I
could be as productive as I waswhen I was working out of a
place to survival.
I'm curious if you have anythoughts on that.
Kat HoSoo Lee (28:37):
Yeah.
So I feel like the firstthought that I had and I'll
circle back to this concept oflike productivity the resistance
that I hear from folks as I'mlike I feel like I'm pretty
transparent about like let'screate an intentional and slow
(28:59):
business, let's, you know,create something that's
sustainable and not a quickflash in the pan.
And even though I have all thatmessaging out there, I still
get a lot of resistance fromfolks when they like get into
the actual work of it.
And one of the fears that Ihear is, if I slow down, I don't
think I'm ever going to like beable to start moving again.
(29:23):
And to me, like that's anindication of the broken system
that we live in, and also thislike indoctrination of like we
always have to be doingsomething to be productive, and
so there's there's an aspect ofthis where, like my curiosity
(29:45):
around a question or an inquirylike that is like how fucking
burnt out are you that, like youcan't consider rest as being
part of a work cycle?
Wow, yeah, you know.
And then we get to unpack thatand there's almost this like
(30:05):
sense of like safety that peoplestart feeling once they give
themselves permission to slowdown and see that actually like
with rest, you get to have likea line to action, and so the way
that I like to think of it is,in the in space, in that slow
(30:30):
space, what comes out of thatspace is intention, and then,
with that value of intention,then your young gets to take
over and do what it's reallygood at, which is aligned action
.
I think that what a lot ofpeople end up doing is they get
stuck in the action mode withoutreally thinking about alignment
(30:54):
and intention, and they getburnt out because they're doing
50 things when they could bedoing five.
Yeah.
You know, and so to me I feellike that's like a roundabout
way of answering your questionis like, yeah, you're probably
actually going to be lessproductive Just in terms of,
(31:16):
like you know, you got fivethings done versus 50.
But those five things actuallymoved your business further
along than the 50 things did.
So like wouldn't you want thatinstead?
And then you have time to likebe a human, and for me that
means like homesteading andplaying with my horses, Like I
want to free up as much time asI can so I can go hang out with
(31:37):
my horses, Like I love that.
Yeah, yeah.
Ashley Beaudin (31:44):
Yeah, I love that.
Yeah, that's a great.
I love that you described thatpicture of like rest in the work
cycle, because I think you'reright that I love the way that
we often think about it is not,we do not picture rest in that.
Kat HoSoo Lee (32:07):
Yeah, I mentioned that, something that you teach
as well.
You know you can't talk aboutgeneral business without talking
about slowing down and resting.
Ashley Beaudin (32:15):
Yeah, yeah, and I mean I think that people, like
what you had said there aboutif I slow down, it's like
there's a fear, yeah, it willall fall apart, like that's a
very real fear and so often Ihave found to that in the
(32:44):
slowing down there are.
Also.
It sort of goes against the waythat we maybe have been taught
but we think if we push, push,push and our capacity to create
(33:05):
and grow, these businesses willgrow.
But it often shrinks.
Whereas when we slow down andtend to ourselves and get space,
it actually allows for theexpansion.
It reminds me it kind ofreminds me of like we are.
(33:27):
We love to inhale in business,but we need to make room for the
exhale.
Kat HoSoo Lee (33:34):
Yeah, yeah, and you can't inhale without the
exhale, like you know.
I'm curious about, like, whenyou talk about not hustling, can
(33:56):
you expand on that a little bitmore?
Like what happens in the slow,what happens in the like pause
for you and your clients?
Yeah.
Ashley Beaudin (34:15):
So I think that one thing is really paying
attention to.
What's, in this, becomeimportant for me is really
paying attention to where mynervous system is feeling, and
(34:38):
if I am feeling likedissociative or I'm shutting
down or I feel panicked or Ifeel like everything's urgent I
have learned to give myself thegift of not working then I see
(35:09):
this come up a lot with and Iunderstand this in my own story
of like you know, okay, you'reworking in your business and
you're like I'm not makingenough money.
You know I like need to pay forthings, I need to pay for rent.
Or you know basic life, livingthings, which just gets more and
(35:29):
more expensive as life goes on,and they're immediately because
there's so much threat tosafety in that like I mean, if I
can't pay my rent, like am Igoing to lose where I'm living?
Like there's a very basic senseof safety that can feel
threatened.
So often the my nervous systemwill go into like either it'll
(35:57):
go like totally up or it'll gototally down, and that I would.
What would happen for me isthat then I would create
strategies out of those places.
So I'd be like I'm going to doa sale, I'm going to do a flash
sale, where I'm going to createa whole new product in like 24
(36:18):
hours and I'm going to sell it,and then, when people aren't
buying it, like I'm going to beso mad.
It's just like it becomes thislike spiral, or not even spiral,
but like little journey ofintensity and fear and survival.
(36:52):
And what I had found is thatfor me, I could implement those
strategies, but it was neveractually really going to work.
Yeah, because it was not one, itwas not done out of a space of
(37:13):
feeling connected and safe.
In number two, the things thatwill actually move me forward,
the things that will actuallyhelp me make money, the things
that will actually work in mybusiness, are often not going to
be created out of that state.
And so, you know, reallycreating like almost like a
(37:35):
first response within me of I'mnoticing that this is happening
for me, it makes sense that I'mscared, like it makes sense I
don't feel totally and I need totend to that right now.
And sometimes that's like,that's not like I'm going to
spend months, sometimes that'slike I'm going to I just go like
(37:56):
10 minutes, yeah, just turninginwards and tending to my sense
of safety and tending to mynervous system or befriending my
nervous system, and then comingback and looking at okay, how
can I create a strategy to meetthe very important need of mine?
(38:19):
And out of that space, I havefound that that's that's when
the beautiful and effective workreally happens.
Yeah.
Kat HoSoo Lee (38:33):
I think, as you're speaking, the word that
I'm reflecting on isrelationship.
If I think about my business asbeing a relationship, then I
(38:54):
treat it like every otherrelationship that I have in my
life, which is it's okay to takespace from the people that you
love.
Sometimes, you know, and to me,like that's kind of what
happens in the like anti hustlelandscape of business is,
sometimes I take space away frommy business Sometimes my
(39:17):
husband even to like establish arelationship back to myself and
from that place of reorientingmy relationship of safety back
to myself, then I can tend tothat relationship with the
business or with my husband orwith my friends in a way that
(39:39):
feels more stable.
You know, like, like.
The analogy that I want to makeis like, imagine if he started
dating out of this sense ofscarcity, of like oh, my God,
the clock is running down and Ineed to get married because I
need to, like you know, createthe American slash because
you're in Canada, like Canadiandream of like 2.5 children and a
(40:02):
white picket fence and all the.
You know, like, like, like.
Imagine if you took that conceptthat so many of us validate in
business, which is like hustle,so that you can have a six
figure income and go live inBali and just drink my ties all
day, like, like, if we overlaidthat into the dating world, that
would not work, or it mightwork, but it there's definitely
(40:26):
going to be some cracks in thefoundations of that relationship
, you know.
And so then, to me, the reasonswhy I'm able to step away from
my relationship and trust thatit's going to be there is a
because it I've had thisbusiness now for, you know,
several years and it's beenpretty consistent, and so I have
(40:49):
that trust established with mybusiness that, like, okay, so
there's a consistency here,there's a pattern here.
It's not this like I have toput in the coin to make the
money come out of the casino,you know.
And like that consistency isthere because, like, I genuinely
(41:09):
feel like I have a relationshipwith the people that I'm
speaking to on Instagram or thatI'm speaking to you through my
newsletter, and so, if I need totake a week off of posting,
like I'm not worried about, ohmy God.
Like are they still going to bethere?
It's like, yeah, they're goingto be there.
Like, fuck the algorithm.
I don't know anything about thealgorithm, like you know, if
(41:33):
they're meant to see my work.
They're gonna see my work.
Ashley Beaudin (41:37):
Yeah, yeah, I think something that's been
interesting to you for me, isthat which I'm not, I'm very
like, I'm no expert in this butthe overlay of attachment
patterns in business, in therelationship that we have
specifically with our business.
(41:58):
And I grew up with a real senseof like a disorganized
attachment and like sometimesyour parents are great and
sometimes they're not, sometimesthey're there and sometimes
they're really far, and I feltthat a lot like when I started
my business, like sometimes mybusiness makes money, but not
(42:19):
sometimes not.
Sometimes it's consistent,sometimes it's not.
Sometimes I feel connected,sometimes I feel afraid, and I
think that can just be apowerful awareness tool to look
at and be kind to ourselvesaround, what's happening?
(42:42):
slash.
What do we need?
Kat HoSoo Lee (42:46):
Yeah, it's something that I talk about.
A lot is like.
This is why I feel likebusiness is a spiritual practice
is because I thought I hadworked through my anxious
attachment style.
You know, like I have a reallysecure relationship with my
friends, like my husband, like,and it took a lot of work to get
(43:07):
there.
But then I got into businessand I was like, oh shoot, my
body remembers this feeling.
This feels like really like ifI messaged a client and they
didn't get back to me within acouple of hours.
Oh man, anxious attachmentpattern right there.
(43:27):
Or like if I got off of aconnection call and I felt like
we had a really good chat andthey took like two or three days
to get back to me.
Oh, my goodness.
And so here's anotheropportunity to like, work
through those patterns that arerooted within my sense of safety
and we get to play with it in adifferent playground other than
(43:51):
a romantic relationship or afriendship.
Here it is again.
Ashley Beaudin (43:55):
So, yeah, absolutely yeah, yeah, it's a
totally different context thatcan bring up things in a way
that could not be brought upanywhere else.
Kat HoSoo Lee (44:03):
Yeah, and I think that we do ourselves a
disservice when we say thingslike, oh, there's no place for
emotions in business, or youhave to compartmentalize who you
are in your business world andwho you are in your personal
life, because it's like, then,the feelings that you have in
business if we just use thatexample of, like, anxious
(44:24):
attachment patterns then youmake those feelings wrong about
you.
And they're not actually wrong.
It's a survival pattern thathas helped you survive in the
past.
And so let's identify what'swrong, and so let's identify
what feels threatening and then,like, take active steps to
(44:45):
integrate that.
Ashley Beaudin (44:47):
Yeah, part of me is.
Sometimes it's like stopfragmenting me.
I'm one whole person, and I'mone whole person no matter where
I am Exactly.
Kat HoSoo Lee (45:00):
Absolutely.
I'm gonna look to your littlething here, because your dog you
mean.
Oh my God, I love it.
If you do not invest in yourbusiness, you aren't serious in
religion.
It's if you don't givefinancially, you are not devout.
So it's interesting that youuse the word invest, because
(45:25):
it's a word that I've beenexamining in my own language,
because that's a very.
I haven't made a decision aboutthis and so, like full
disclosure, I don't know.
I don't know where I land onthis yet, but it makes me wonder
about when we use the wordinvest.
(45:47):
Does it then encourage peopleto pay more than they actually
feel safe?
Paying.
Ashley Beaudin (46:00):
Wow, yeah, yeah.
You know, you totally see that.
Kat HoSoo Lee (46:10):
And again, like I don't know where I land on it.
I can't even remember what Ihave on my sales page right now,
but like I'm kind of inclinedto just call it like payment or
this is the price, Like you know, Because the word invest I
(46:33):
don't know it comes from likethe financial world.
There's like a I don't know.
I'm throwing this at youbecause I don't know.
Ashley Beaudin (46:45):
Yeah, yeah.
Kat HoSoo Lee (46:47):
I pick it up Ashley.
Ashley Beaudin (46:49):
Catch the ball.
Well, something that I've beenreally thinking about, that I
feel like I first learned how todo in religion, which is the
types of cultures that I grew upin were very like if God tells
(47:11):
you to do something, who caresif you have the money?
Like if God tells you to dosomething, like do it, the money
will come.
Oh, which is so resonant with.
Kat HoSoo Lee (47:25):
Yes.
Ashley Beaudin (47:27):
The money will come with you and just and coach
you or whatever.
And for what happened for me,it is like that what would
happen is that I would I didn'treally do it when I was in
religion, but then by the time Igot into business I would make
these financial.
(47:48):
I would take financial risks onthe belief that if I just that,
because I had this good idea,or because I had this sense that
I was supposed to do this thing, that it was all gonna work out
, and then when I was kind ofleft in a mess because I never
actually felt safe, to make thatlevel, to take that level of
(48:11):
financial risk without anysecurity net.
It was like a total collapse forthe scenes and the hard thing
about it is that it seems likesuch a good story on the outside
(48:33):
of like I had nothing.
I had a dream, I gaveeverything I had and it kind of
worked out.
Yeah, yeah, and I think I'vebeen processing that because I
feel a little bit like madinside, that, like they taught
(48:53):
me that from the young age, it'svery much not a balanced
approach, it's not rooted inwisdom and it's a little bit
reckless and radical to do that.
But it was just like repeatedover and over and over and it
(49:15):
would just became like this isthe way to do it, this is the
way to respond to this sense,and I had to deal with some
major fallout in my businessthat was incredibly difficult to
deal with.
Kat HoSoo Lee (49:33):
I think not that I feel like I've
compartmentalized as part ofmyself, because I certainly do
have a lot of feelings around it, but I haven't really shared
that much about my grandparents,so, like I didn't grow up with
a ton of like religiousupbringing.
I left the church when I was 16, but my grandparents are like
(50:01):
the most devout of devoutchurchgoers and it's been
upsetting to me watching them.
They're now in their mid-70sthat like, as they're sort of
(50:22):
entering into their like elderyears, their mentality is I
can't take this money with meanyway and so God's gonna take
care of me when I go to heavenand so I'm going to take care of
him now, like through thechurch, and so they give so much
(50:46):
money.
It's like painful to watch andit's kind of like like maybe
this is just because I'm alittle bit more scientifically
minded, but like blind faith,yeah, you know, yeah, like I do
(51:09):
believe in an afterlife, I dobelieve that something happens
to our souls.
I don't know that I necessarilybelieve in the Christian idea of
heaven, but like there's thislike blind faith of like blind
faith and also conditionalaspect of it.
It's like if I do this, thenthis is going to happen and I
(51:31):
feel like I see that a lot inthe online coaching industry of
like, if you invest, then you'regonna get the fanciful promises
, and then this is where it getsa little bit tricky, because I
do believe in reciprocity, like,I do believe that there is a
(51:57):
certain level of like you've gotto be and again I'm going to
use this word, not feelingcompletely comfortable with it,
but like invested emotionally,energetically, financially for
it to be meaningful for you.
It's got to hurt a little bit,it's got to be a little bit
(52:18):
sticky For it to be really likeand I hate that the human psyche
is like this, but like at thiscurrent stage of capitalism,
that's kind of what it is Is.
Like, if I price my thingssuper, super low, then I have a
really high turnover rate and Ihave people who don't show up
(52:38):
and value the work for what itis.
I have my stuff priced veryspecifically because I know that
for my client base, that's alittle bit of a stretch.
It's not so much of a stretchthat they're like disassociating
and like putting themselves ina state of danger, but it is a
stretch, and so I'm curious,like what that's bringing up for
(53:04):
you.
Ashley Beaudin (53:05):
Yeah, I think what was coming up for me in
holding those two things thispattern that we're seeing in
religion and online business,and then also this even I'm just
thinking of, like some of therhythms in nature Planting and
(53:30):
receiving I think what issticking out to me is dynamics
of power Say more, say more.
And I think because in theexample with religion and online
business, there is always inthose contexts, a person or
(53:55):
individual who holds more powerand is influencing the person
and might be not even aware ofall.
Sometimes I think, yeah, theyare, sometimes I don't know if
they are, but all these ways ofconvincing people to give slash
buy that is rooted inmanipulation, shaming,
(54:25):
overcoming objections.
Kat HoSoo Lee (54:28):
God, I hate that.
We could do a whole podcastepisode about overcoming
objections, a whole series.
Ashley Beaudin (54:39):
Whereas, yeah, I don't know, like, if you are,
for example, if I think of me inthat church context of there,
here's this person in authoritythat I respect telling me it is
time that they're queuing themusic up.
(55:01):
The piano is getting louder,the drums are playing.
Kat HoSoo Lee (55:08):
Oh, I hadn't even think about the somatic
experience of it, because I wastoo young, right Like I didn't
actually give alms Right.
Ashley Beaudin (55:17):
And I mean the churches that I grew up in,
because they were Pentecostal,they were very emotional.
I think anyone who has theexperience of being in those
types of settings there is anemotional and sensory experience
that holds a different kind ofpower.
(55:39):
You know, like the classic.
I mean I don't know if everyonelistening will know what I'm
saying here, but the scene ofpeople falling over or getting
slain in the spirit and quotes,that's what they normally call
it.
As a young person I wasconstantly falling over and I
(56:02):
didn't understand, in some ways,what was happening to me.
But it was described to me aslike God is moving on you, he
has chosen you, he's moving onyou.
I don't know what I totallythink about all of this, but I
do think that there is a levelof sensory overwhelm, yeah,
(56:24):
dissociation, submitting to you.
There almost feels like in mybody, like this, like point of
submission To you what'shappening, like in the room or
what's happening, becausenormally when you're in a
setting where, like, you'reabout to fall over, there's
(56:47):
someone in front of you usuallysomeone who holds more power
putting their hands on youyelling.
I don't know, that could belike a lot of different things
happening.
Yeah.
I just think about all thosethings together.
For me within that culture, howcould I not have I don't know?
(57:09):
It's like I almost like look atthat and I'm like how could I
truly have full consent in a lotof those settings to say what I
believed or gave because Iwanted to that power, volunteer
because it felt good to me.
It was really hard to reallyhard to do that and and so when
(57:35):
I think about this conversationaround money, I think when
there's power present, whenthere's power dynamic present,
when that power is not beingtreated intentionally or with
(57:59):
care, yeah, I think I wanna sortof jump on this concept because
there's essentially marketing.
Kat HoSoo Lee (58:19):
I'm gonna bring it to the all-man coaching space
.
Yeah, essentially, withmarketing, what we are trying to
invoke is a motion toward usyeah, right.
And that motion can be done intwo ways.
It can be done throughactivating the sympathetic
(58:42):
nervous system, where we put alot of pressure onto that
individual so that they see thatfleeing towards you means that
you're going to rescue them fromthe thing that is scaring them
in their life.
Or you're activating an anxiousattachment wound, which is a
(59:08):
fight response right.
And so then they're gonna movetowards you versus and to me,
that's everything that is wrongabout traditional marketing
practices is we are purposefullyand whether people have a sense
of the nervous system or notwe're training people to
(59:31):
activate people's sympatheticnervous systems by slamming on
pain points, by putting yourselfin as an authority, by saying
the window of time that you cansign up is this much amount of
time, and basically by creatinga lot of scarcity and pressure.
(01:00:01):
Or the way that I like to thinkabout marketing is like this is
a relationship, and so you havea lot of space and time to think
about what your decision isgoing to be.
I'm here to tell you exactlyhow I can support you.
I'm here to help educate you onhow we can point you back
towards yourself and,essentially, people can move
(01:00:24):
towards you through a sense ofsafety instead of scarcity and
if they're looking to you forsafety, like to me, that is a
much more obviously a much moreconsensual relationship, and
that's what I'm hearing in thechurch is like.
(01:00:46):
By drumming up the music andhaving the pastor stand right in
front of you and put his handson you, and with the yelling and
the screaming and the highemotional intensity of it, it's
like we're activating people'ssympathetic nervous systems and,
(01:01:08):
in the case of falling over,like activating it to the point
that you're actuallydisassociating.
Ashley Beaudin (01:01:14):
Yeah, yeah, as a child, which is the whole other
thing.
Kat HoSoo Lee (01:01:23):
Yeah, and then on top of that you get validated
because God's put his hand onyou right, and so then we start
seeking and looking for that.
Yeah, and to me, like there'slike the contrast between like a
dopamine inducing sort ofrelationship versus like a
(01:01:46):
serotonin inducing relationship.
You know, like that dopaminehit of like oh dang, like now
everybody's eyes are on me andlike that's got to feel like a
rush.
On another level, yeah.
Ashley Beaudin (01:02:02):
You know, yeah, I'm the chosen one.
Yeah, yeah, I have a couplethoughts.
Number one is I had actuallybeen thinking about this
recently because I found myselfdoing it.
You know, when you're in thosemoments you're like, why am I
saying this?
And I was thinking that.
(01:02:28):
So a big thing in the churchcontext I grew up in was the
idea of altercalls, which is,like you know, usually where the
slain and the spirit thingwould happen, whereas, like,
someone would give a message ora sermon, then they call up
musicians and then they givethis like, call, like if this
(01:02:52):
resonates with you, basicallylike, come to the front, show
your participants in this yourresponse to this.
And I was thinking about itbecause a lot of times what they
would say was language like, ifyou feel something happening in
your heart, come forward.
(01:03:12):
If you feel like your heart hasjust started beating really
fast, that's like that's God,come forward.
I was thinking about it becausesometimes I and I guess maybe I
don't know if I learned this inchurch, I don't know if it just
got mirrored in business butsometimes when I would talk
about programs, I would say ifyou feel like something in your
(01:03:38):
heart is like pulling youforward, come to the front.
Kat HoSoo Lee (01:03:42):
Basically, yeah, I feel like I have that in my
language even too howinteresting we're like doing
altercalls Something to examinefor sure.
Ashley Beaudin (01:03:56):
Yeah, it's just an interesting notice, like
where is that language comingfrom inside of me and why am I
speaking it forward in that way?
And I mean it could be totallyfine, but I think it's just an
interesting point of reflection,especially someone who's
experienced it.
Yeah, in those contexts, ohinteresting.
Kat HoSoo Lee (01:04:24):
Hey, I think the fact that you're examining it is
like a reflection of like thisis why we ascribe to ethical
business, right yeah Issometimes we do things without
knowing and we have to examineit.
We have to go and look at itagain and be like, hey, does
(01:04:47):
this still feel in alignment?
Where did that come from?
Where is that language incoming from?
Right yeah, and like I willfully admit to, I did the pain
marketing thing because that wasall I knew, particularly when I
was an acupuncturist.
That's how we're taught is likebasically call out people's
(01:05:12):
pain and let them see you as anauthority and let them know that
you're going to rescue themfrom that pain.
And so this languaging around,if you feel resonance in your
heart or if you feel flutter inyour heart like interesting, I'm
(01:05:36):
gonna sit with that too.
Ashley Beaudin (01:05:39):
Yeah, I think it is interesting.
The other thing I was thinkingabout, which, I suppose, is the
idea of love bombing, is a lotof times when church is trying
to get people to join, there canbe a lot of love bombing of
(01:06:00):
like cause you're, you know,maybe you're trying to get them
to convert or stay, or whatever.
Kat HoSoo Lee (01:06:09):
Whatever?
Can you define?
What love bombing is Cause?
I only just recently learnedabout this term, so there might
be people out there who don'tknow it.
Ashley Beaudin (01:06:19):
I'll just give you my perception of the term,
which is basically like anintense outpouring of
compliments, attention, praise,love, to make an individual feel
really, really good.
So you know, I think it's useda lot in abusive relationships,
(01:06:41):
used a lot in cults.
Kat HoSoo Lee (01:06:43):
Yeah, that's the context.
I know it is in narcissisticrelationships.
Ashley Beaudin (01:06:46):
Right, yeah, I had never thought of that until
recently as love bombing, but Ican see how it could be very
resonant at times for folks oflike, like, even I think, for me
.
I'm this like 14 year old, Idon't, I'm not getting a lot of
love at home and I'm suddenly inchurch and I'm getting all this
(01:07:11):
like attention and affectionand hugs and like you have
purpose and you're amazing andyou're loved, and I was like
give me more.
I just like want to eat this up.
When I was around 14, Iremember saying to a friend of
mine that the reason that I keptgoing back to church was
(01:07:33):
because I loved getting hugs andI didn't feel like I could get
that at home but I could get somany like on a Sunday morning.
And the thing about lovebombing is the idea that like,
yeah, eventually it's sort oflike fades right and then you
know it might move on to otherthings, sometimes not the
(01:07:54):
greatest things.
But I was thinking also aboutthis idea in business of
nurturing leads and depending onhow someone might go about
these strategies, I think I wasspecifically thinking about it
less than a general license oflike I'm nurturing leads through
like.
(01:08:15):
I don't know doing free classesor opt-ins or downloads or
podcasts or whatever, but morewhen people go off.
You know, really pursue people.
Kat HoSoo Lee (01:08:26):
The cold DMs.
Ashley Beaudin (01:08:28):
Yeah, yeah, like they're in your comments,
they're in your DMs, they'reresponding to your stories and
sometimes you can feel thatsense right Of like.
I feel like you want me to buyfrom you that feels very
resonant to me of you want me tocome to your church, some of
(01:08:53):
these like nuances andcomplexities.
It's I just feel so like.
I feel like even through ourconversation, I'm like, oh my
gosh, like I just feel like I'mseeing more and more yeah, yeah,
relationship for me.
Kat HoSoo Lee (01:09:08):
But, yeah, I mean , I think that the question that
I have there is like, like,what is the healthy version of
that?
Because, yeah, I'm imaginingyou as a 14 year old who didn't
get hugs at home and you weregetting that need met at church.
Yeah, you know, like, why isthat such a bad thing?
And you know, like, I'mimagining and we can sort of
(01:09:35):
like overlay this onto the likecoaching space, but like I'm
imagining, in that moment you'refeeling seen, heard, known,
ununderstood, and so like, like,at what point does it flip over
into and I don't have an answerfor this like, at what point
does it flip over intomanipulation and coercion?
(01:09:57):
Yeah, versus, like, like, if Isaw a 14 year old who wasn't
getting loved at home, I wouldwant to also like have some care
and consideration for that 14year old.
Ashley Beaudin (01:10:12):
Yeah, 100%, and I think that, like, I think that
that's why I can still say thatin some ways, the church really
helped me and it was a safeplace.
Yeah, yeah, I think what Ithink the thing that I'll say is
(01:10:37):
that, or where it gets sort offlipped is in the why.
Like is it, like let's forget,like let's talk about it, like
(01:10:59):
I'm talking about me as 14.
Like, am I meeting this littlehuman because I see that they're
in need of care?
That's one thing.
I think it's another thing ofI'm going to meet this young
person with care so that theycan become a member or they can
(01:11:26):
become a next big thing.
Yeah, become a really bigfinancial donor, like whatever.
Yeah, that's the difference, Ithink, for me.
Kat HoSoo Lee (01:11:37):
Yeah, and I'm even thinking of like.
Reflecting that back to likemarketing is like are you
marketing just to get people tosign up for your programs, or
are you marketing with, like, asense of like non-attachment,
(01:12:02):
and by non-attachment I don'tmean like I don't care, but like
from a sense of like hey, likeI'm putting out valuable work
because I think that it's goingto serve people, whether or not
they sign up for my stuff or not.
Yeah.
And then the financial successends up becoming almost like a
byproduct of you nurturing theserelationships, versus, like you
(01:12:27):
, being singularly focused on,like, getting that next client
or getting that, like you know,x number of enrollments in your
program.
Yeah, am I hearing thatcorrectly?
Ashley Beaudin (01:12:42):
Yeah, it's like.
It makes me think, like, areyou appearing to love or believe
or care for me so that you canhit a mark or you can make a
sale, or do you genuinely love,care, support, believe Because
(01:13:08):
you want to?
Kat HoSoo Lee (01:13:09):
Yeah, and you can feel that too.
Like, even in like a, you know,even in the virtual space,
sometimes I'll get somebody wholike, likes, like 10 pictures in
a row and then comments on likethree of them, and then I get a
DM that's like, oh my gosh, I'mloving your work and you know,
(01:13:34):
I'll give a very sort of likeFrank reply, because already my
like Spidey senses are up andthen eventually the like pitch
comes right.
It's like, you know, I'mlooking for an entrepreneur,
just like you, like, so like.
Ashley Beaudin (01:13:54):
Yeah, I think it's a really good example of
what I've been trying todescribe in this yeah.
When it's like, like, almostlike, what's the word I'm
thinking of?
This is not it, but likesomething to be conquered.
Kat HoSoo Lee (01:14:14):
Yeah, yeah, and like to me like the reason why I
think my Spidey senses come upis because it's like we don't
have a relationship.
Like you, liking 10 of myphotos does not mean that we
have a relationship, and so,yeah, that feels really icky and
(01:14:34):
like it's like a thing that'staught right, yeah, it is.
Yeah, I know, you know.
Like that's like a strategy,like a marketing strategy that
people teach.
Mm-hmm no.
Ashley Beaudin (01:14:46):
No, yeah, I think what I want to say to you
is that I just feel like thisconversation, between the
overlap of the two Well, I feellike I say this about everything
, and I'm sure you probably doto some level too of like it's
just so nuanced, yeah, and ourexperiences are all so different
no-transcript group that's beeninvolved in my own story or
anyone else's, but I think thatthey're something really
(01:15:06):
powerful and talking about thesethings and giving language for
reasons why, maybe focal pointsbetween uhèleANCIT I feel like
it's just kind of like a sort ofrelevance for people why maybe
(01:15:28):
folks have felt uncomfortable orunsure or that seems like a lot
to me, and I hope that that iswhat this conversation can do
for people.
Kat HoSoo Lee (01:15:41):
Yeah, and I think that the nuance there is so
important because even in yourstory, like, we found the nuance
of like well, that's why thechurch was actually healthy for
me.
Yeah, you know, like youhaven't thrown out the baby with
the bathwater and you know havesaid like, oh my gosh, like I
was completely abused in thechurch.
It's like no there was actuallylove and care there that I
(01:16:03):
wasn't getting at home, and so,like we can look at this with
like a neutral lens, so that wecan make decisions that feel the
most aligned for us at the time, you know, knowing that we are
constantly evolving, constantlylearning, constantly practicing
human beings, and we might makea different decision six months
(01:16:27):
from now, a year from now, right.
Ashley Beaudin (01:16:31):
Yeah yeah, holding space for whatever's
present at the time.
Yeah, yeah.
Kat HoSoo Lee (01:16:39):
Is there anything else that you feel like you
want to land in with before weclose up for today?
Ashley Beaudin (01:16:53):
I think I just want to say that if there's
anyone listening that feels aresonance specifically with some
of the overlap whether that'sin a small way or a really big
way that what I would deeplyencourage is to find, even if
(01:17:24):
it's like the smallest sense ofsafety within you, and also that
you're not alone in theseexperiences and these overlaps
and also like it makes sensethat online business would feel
(01:17:48):
safe if that has been, some ofthese like anchors or criteria
almost have been present inother settings and also that you
deserve an experience ofbusiness that it genuinely and
truly feels safe and kind andconnected and gentle.
(01:18:15):
And I think I speak for both ofus when I say we wrote and
desire that for you.
Kat HoSoo Lee (01:18:23):
I love that.
Well, thank you so much forspending your afternoon with me.
I'm really excited to sharethis with me.
People, I'll have all of yourlinks and stuff in the show
notes, but if people wanted tojust find you and follow you on
Instagram from this conversation, instagram handle, website, all
(01:18:46):
those pieces, what are youraddresses?
Yeah, that's great.
Yeah, do you want to say themout loud here so that?
So that people can just go findyou, oh, yeah, I guess they
want to know?
Ashley Beaudin (01:18:56):
Yeah, they might want to know.
Gentle Business Coach onInstagram.
Gentle Business Coachcom is mywebsite.
Kat HoSoo Lee (01:19:08):
Perfect, alrighty .
Well, thank you so much forbeing here, ashley.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah.
Yay.
Hello and welcome to the Empowered Curiosity Post
.
Oh, actually, I'm going to saythat again because I've changed
the name of my podcast.
Here we go Hello and welcome tothe Rooted Business Podcast,
and today I've got a new friendon.
(00:22):
His name is Ashley, and I'vebeen quiet following you, ashley
, for a little while, and a fewmonths back you posted something
on Instagram that just like wasso juicy and it's not a concept
that I am super familiar with,and so I thought you're the
(00:44):
perfect person to have you comeon and unpack this, mostly
because I kind of want to learnabout it myself, and so I'll
just read the post out loud,real quick, just to give people
context for why and where ourconversation is going.
So you start out by saying oftenthose who have been involved in
(01:05):
high control or abusivereligious settings find a home
in online entrepreneurshipbecause it mimics familiar
dynamics, already Oof.
And then you have thisbeautiful like side by side
comparison of religious settingshave externalized authority in
church leadership.
Online entrepreneurship hasexternalized authority and
(01:28):
experts.
Religious settings bypass yourbody as it's not holy.
Online entrepreneurshipbypasses your body as it's not
valuable.
Religious settings hustle tobelong to the community.
Online entrepreneurship hustleto be a success among your peers
.
Religious settings if you don'tgive financially, you are not
devout, or devout Onlineentrepreneurship if you do not
(01:52):
invest in your business, youaren't serious Religious
settings, public shaming forcertain sins and online
entrepreneurship cancel culturefor certain mistakes, and so
that's what we're going to talkabout today.
So, thank you, thank you somuch for being here.
Ashley Beaudin (02:12):
Yeah, I'm honored honestly honored to be
here.
Kat HoSoo Lee (02:16):
So you know, in the intro folks got a chance to
like get your bio, but can yougive us a little bit of context
for what your history is withthis particular topic, what your
upbringing was, because Iimagine that it's.
It's a lot different from minebecause I grew up in in church,
(02:37):
but not to the extent that itfelt like it was really
traumatizing.
Yeah, yeah, give me, give me alittle bit of you.
Ashley Beaudin (02:45):
Yeah Well, and I think, yeah, that's, it's
definitely like information thatwould not be in the traditional
bio in.
So I'm excited to you, I'mexcited to have this
conversation.
This is something that I'vebeen reflecting on for a long
time, and I think anyone who'sbeen interviewed I think
sometimes interviews like justhave this ability to like pull
(03:08):
things out of you that have beenstewing inside and so this has
been definitely a journey thatI've been unpacking personally,
you know, specifically aroundlike the impacts of some of the
environments that I grew up in,and then, through that unpacking
(03:29):
, was starting to seesimilarities in some of the, I
guess, the toxicity that I hadstumbled into in online
entrepreneurship earlier in myjourney, and so, to give a
little bit of context for how Igrew up in more of the religious
setting, I was someone who hada lot of trauma early in life,
(03:58):
you know, really struggled tofind the sense of safety, and I
could not find it in my home,and so church rescued me.
Church became a place where Ifelt safe.
It was the safest place I knew.
As you know, in my early teenageyears Because of that, I became
(04:26):
may have murdered and fixated,and I wanted to be there all the
time.
I wanted to be at home, I wantedto be a church.
Because of that I really becameswept up, I would say, in the
culture and what I was learningand because there was this
(04:47):
visceral sense of like theseneeds that are very real to me
are not being met at home, itjust became like a deeper and
deeper entrenchment.
And so I went to a Pentecostalchurch and I would say, on the
(05:11):
spectrum of like you know, likezero control to high control, I
wouldn't say it was like on theextreme end of the power and
dominance over my life, but itwas more, in some ways, what
feels at times more dangerous isthe more subtle way of
(05:34):
submission and disconnectionfrom myself.
And so I got really swept up inthat from the time I was around
14 to probably my mid-20s.
There was a lot of intensitythere for me and I honestly,
(06:02):
because it was such like a safespace for me, it was like it
took me a really long time toprocess it because I was like
don't touch that, because if Ifigure out like that that's not
safe, then what is.
It's gonna shake me a little bitright.
So it's kind of a I mean, Ithink that's kind of the
(06:26):
beautiful work of healing, ofdiscovering that at the end of
the day can you cultivate thatsafe place in you and the purity
that I've been on.
So that gives it's a little bitof history.
Kat HoSoo Lee (06:40):
Yeah can I ask what shifted in that
relationship between you andchurch where you started feeling
like, oh, I do want to findthat safety within myself
instead of an external entity?
Ashley Beaudin (07:00):
Yeah, it was a really slow process.
It wasn't like a light bulbmoment, let's go, and a lot of
my story has to do with find,discovering ways of coping that
really came into contrast withwhat belongs in a church, and so
(07:25):
I've shared about this a lotpublicly about it's been thrown.
I've used a lot of names for itsex addiction, shutting down
through sexting, all those typesof things, and when you have a
problem like that, when you havea problem like that, that
(07:46):
really conflicts with theculture of the church and
problem in air quotes.
Kat HoSoo Lee (07:53):
Yeah, yeah.
Ashley Beaudin (07:56):
So when I and then when I was like they're
like trying to fix me and I'mnot like getting better in like
one day or two weeks or a year,I was like I need, this place
isn't safe for me in the sameway that it once was.
And that's a little bit of adifficult thing to process,
(08:17):
because it can feel like you,it's your fault that it's no
longer safe, when in realityit's actually not your fault.
It's like the burden of thesystem.
Kat HoSoo Lee (08:36):
So one of the things that I find really
refreshing about the work thatyou share online is and this is
why I feel like there's a lot ofalignment in both of our works
is like somatics, nervous system, intuition lives in the body,
(09:00):
and so what is it about therelationship to like?
I kind of want to unpack thatone of the pieces that you
shared about.
You know, the wisdom isbasically cut off from your body
in both the coaching industryand in religion, so can you
(09:27):
unpack that a little bit?
Ashley Beaudin (09:29):
Yeah, yeah, I.
So in religion, in churchcontext, it was there's very
much the sense that I had oflike so much of the authority.
It does not come from me, butit comes from the pastor the
(09:50):
pastor, the leader or theleaders and I had gone into this
pattern and when I was ateenager, where I had, like,
really developed a mentorshipwith one of the prominent
pastors and I really struggledto make a decision on my own
(10:10):
about anything, I would thinkabout making a decision and I
would have to pass everything byhim, and it wasn't necessarily
a thing where he was like youhave to, which is that's what
makes things a little bitcomplicated for me, but it was
definitely the how it operatedinside of me of like tell me,
(10:33):
like is this okay, I don't wantto make a mistake.
Like tell me, if you tell me,this is the right decision.
On the same notion of like ifyou come at me and you say you
need to stop this, I would, Iwould do basically whatever he
said.
Yeah, a lot of power, yeah, overme.
And I felt that very reflectedbecause when I came into the
(10:58):
online business industry, I beenworried for myself since 2015,
and when I came in 2015, Ireally felt it prominent and
like there were this elite groupalmost of experts that everyone
followed and subscribed to youand if you just did everything
(11:20):
they said, if you followed thatplan step by step, right, you
would belong or you would havesuccess or you could be like
them.
Kat HoSoo Lee (11:30):
Yeah, I feel like that's how it still is.
Yeah, if you know, there's a Iactually don't follow a lot of
people on Instagram anymore.
I've like curated my feed tolike just the people that I want
to like connect with, and butbefore I did that, like there is
(11:51):
a lot of this like just tell mewhat to do, sort of energy and
and online coaches capitalizingon that, and so I can definitely
see how there is thatcorrelation in your life of you
know, I just want to do theright thing and instead of
(12:12):
looking within yourself tofigure out what is the most
genuine and authentic thing foryou, you know, asking an elder
in your church to make thosedecisions for you, and that's,
oh my gosh, let's.
I like look at my, my coachingclients now and it's like that's
(12:34):
the opposite of what I want todo for them, because it really
hits on that like I'm not enoughwound, I'm not wise enough, I'm
not smart enough, I'm not, youknow, hustling enough, like what
I like fill in the blank ofwhatever that is, and if you're
just stepping in instead ofteaching them how to listen to
their bodies, you know you'reyou're doing them a disservice.
Ashley Beaudin (13:01):
Yeah, I agree completely.
I agree to that.
Like I see it come up inclients all the time they're.
They're like just tell me whatto do, or do you think that I
should do this?
What do you think of this andthat?
That nudge, I guess, toredirect themselves can
(13:30):
sometimes as well feel prettyscary for people.
Yeah, of course, and I reallyunderstand that.
Kat HoSoo Lee (13:38):
Yeah, yeah, what I'm realizing now is we're
talking is, like you know, I Ididn't become like super
infatuated with the church, butlike the themes are the same, to
be honest, because, like I meanto to sort of simplify it, it's
(14:01):
almost like, good girl,programming is what we're
talking about here, and Icertainly, growing up, like
asked my parents to make a lotof decisions for me and they
took those decisions on becausethey thought that that was good
parenting, you know, versus likeencouraging me to problem solve
and look within myself and tryto come up with a decision, and
(14:23):
it's like like actually I hadthe opposite experience of if I
made a decision that I feltreally good about, they'd be
like, oh, that doesn't makesense, like why would you want
to do that?
And so I feel like I think Icame into this conversation
being like, well, teach me aboutreligion, program, religious
(14:44):
programming, and it's like no,these are universal things that
we're talking about.
You know, these are absolutelyuniversal things that we're
talking about here.
So, yeah, I'm curious about, Ifeel like I'm like you basically
just like wrote the outline forour talk here in that post.
(15:06):
So I'm like we're just gonna,we're just gonna go through each
of these and like to likeunpack each of them.
So you know we've coveredexternalized authority and
church leadership, bypassingyour body, as it's not valuable.
I think that the little piecethat I want to add there is
something that I practice thatyou know listeners might find
(15:26):
helpful is being really carefulabout giving advice.
As a practitioner, I'm notgonna say like advice is never
warranted, because I think thatit is warranted sometimes, but
for me the distinction is isthis person in a regulated state
?
Because if I sense that there'slike some nervous system
(15:51):
dysregulation, as they're likeasking for the advice, that
means that they've automaticallypushed that authority into me
instead of themselves, and sothen my role as a practitioner
is to, as you were saying, likeredirect and be like okay.
So where's that wisdom comingfrom within you so that you can
(16:13):
feel empowered to make thosedecisions for yourself?
Yeah.
And then that's a very, verydifferent energy from somebody
who's coming to me and I feellike they've done their nervous
system regulation work.
They're feeling really goodabout.
You know, I've narrowed it downto these like two things and I
just genuinely like want someadvice, and it's not coming from
a place where, like they'relike asking me to like make the
(16:35):
decision for them.
That's a very, very differentenergy, right, and so, like, if
just like on a practical levelas a coach you know sitting with
like being able to readpeople's nervous systems, I
think is really important sothat you can then dole out
whatever it is that they'rethey're asking for and looking
(16:57):
for in a way that's actuallyhealthy for them.
Ashley Beaudin (16:59):
Yeah, I love that, and I love even the
question of even posing thatquestion to them of based on,
maybe, what you're picking up on.
What are you really looking forhere?
Yeah, sometimes I think peopleare looking for.
(17:23):
People are looking for a senseof assurance or they want to
trust themselves, but that feelsscary.
They want acknowledgement, theywant to feel heard.
I mean, there can be so manythings.
(17:43):
This actually reminds me.
I've never connected thisbefore, but I had years ago when
I was like, really in church, Ihad heard someone say a lot of
times, when people are askingfor you to pray for them, what
they're really asking for is tobe heard, and I feel like we
(18:07):
could use that in the samecontext here of like, when
people are looking for advice,it is easier to ask for advice
than it is to ask to be heard.
Kat HoSoo Lee (18:20):
Yes, oh, I love that.
And if we I'm like for the flipflopping between client and
practitioner roles here, yeah Islike and here's a concept that
I hadn't really put together aswell is when a client starts
(18:45):
being really explicit and clearabout what it is that they're
needing from me.
I know we've like passed somesort of like threshold and
portal.
You know, I'm like I'm thinkingof a particular client right
now where, like she was reallyreally clear about like hey, I'm
(19:13):
asking for advice in thismoment, and like I didn't have
to prompt it and she even waslike I feel really good about
the decision that I've made, butI am just like honestly and
genuinely curious about what itis that you would have done in
this instance, and I love thatLike.
(19:33):
To me it's like like that personis acting in a very, very
sovereign way, in a way that'sreally powerful for them, and
then the conversation turns fromthis hierarchical dynamic where
I'm the expert and she is justthis like lowly person who like
can't make a decision forherself which obviously that's
(19:55):
not how I think about my clientsbut like, and rather it ends up
being like a collaborative, co,creative conversation where
it's like you know, we areoftentimes, I'll say, you know,
to my, my one on one clientslike I'm going to step into the
role of like co CEO of yourbusiness, and what that really
means is like like we're reallykind of like a close co CEO of
your business.
And what that really means islike like we're really going to
(20:18):
be in this like dynamic, dynamicconversation about what's best
for you and your business, andit's not coming from a place of
like you have to do it my wayand like follow my signature
program, you know yeah,absolutely.
I love that.
Yeah.
So this next piece, hustle.
(20:38):
Can we talk about hustle?
You talk about hustle to belongin the community, in the
religious setting, and you alsotalk about hustle to be a
success among your peers in theonline space.
Ashley Beaudin (20:48):
So talk to me a little bit about hustle, yeah so
I mean also, you know a lot ofthis is so like a lot of what I
had described in that is from myexperiences, and so my
experience in church is there'soften quite a demand for labor
(21:14):
to like volunteer or serve orput the work in, and on a base
level I understand it.
You know, like communitycontribute, but when I think
it's done which has often beenmy experience of a demand and if
(21:40):
you don't do it, like you,there's this like sense of shame
.
Or you know, I've heard thingsfrom from the front of the room
where it's like like if youhaven't signed up to volunteer,
(22:01):
like basically what's wrong withyou or you should feel guilty
because the rest of the churchis like holding it and you
aren't contributing.
What would really drive me alittle bit wild is when you have
(22:22):
like a lead pastor who hasthese gigantic ideas without
considering the care of thoseunderneath him in the church and
then it's like we have to dothis huge thing yeah, we don't
have enough people, but like wewe're going to do this.
(22:42):
Then the increases that sense ofpressure, increases the, the,
this culture of burnout and itcan be like a really difficult,
honestly, I think, a reallydifficult space to not submit to
all that, like all thatpressure and all that shaming,
(23:03):
it can run close into coercingthrough the culture of guilt and
manipulation, honestly, yeah,and so there, I've had a lot of
experiences of that and of beingsort of like where you're not
(23:26):
really like honoring yourboundaries.
You know you're like givingeverything you have, and that's
very encouraged.
And so then, to compare that toonline business I mean, anyone
who's been in online businessfor like two seconds knows that
there's major components ofhustle that can be present,
(23:52):
messaging around like reallyworking for it.
Kat HoSoo Lee (23:59):
Well, it's not even just like present.
It's validated and encouragedin a way that, like you know, I
personally found reallyuncomfortable when I first got
into the online space.
You know, like I, I think thereason why I started following
you is because your handle isgentle.
Business coach.
Ashley Beaudin (24:18):
Yeah.
Kat HoSoo Lee (24:19):
And like if that is the opposite of boss babe
Right, right, and I feel likethat was all that was out.
There is these boss babewannabes who really I don't know
(24:42):
like I could see that happeningin the corporate space, and
it's like, you know, youbasically just changed nothing
and like moved it into like anonline business where you're
working for yourself, but nowyou're the dictator, not the
corporation, you know.
(25:03):
And so I almost feel like weneed to have like a third column
in your, in your post, whereit's like what is the balanced
version of this?
So like, what is what is your?
And recognizing that this islike an ongoing practice and
relationship to like hustle andrest, like what is your version
(25:26):
of hustle now and how is thatlike a changing landscape for
you?
Ashley Beaudin (25:35):
Well, I would say that the like, as I was
reflecting on what you asked meand then what you shared, I
think, and what's reallysticking out to me is that in
these cultures of hustle, thatthere is a lot of shame present,
Like if you're not doing this,you're not doing enough, and so
(26:03):
I think that that that reallyopens up probably my a lot of my
perspective on the morebalanced way which would be
without shame and operatingreally out of you know, a
(26:26):
connected sense or self.
It really you can see, likethrough all of these I feel like
through all of these examples,like how connected they are all
to one another, but that likebeing able to check in with
myself, see where I'm at, honormy capacity, respond to what's
(26:48):
going on in my body at thatmoment.
Something I've been thinking alot about is because sometimes
what people can say is they'llsay, like general business, like
so I'll do nothing.
Basically it's not, it's notabout never working, but it's
(27:09):
about prioritizing your safetyand care to such a level that
you can work intentionally andwith clarity and responding,
working out of response, not toa sense of survival but to a
(27:29):
sense of connection andenthusiasm, and that was a big
thing for me being able todiscern the difference between,
I would say, the beginning of mybusiness like 90% of the time I
was working out of a state ofurgency, survival and that was
all I knew.
Like that was all I knew how todo.
(27:49):
Yeah, Now it's like being ableto shift into a place of working
that is responding to aninternal sense of safety and
enthusiasm, enjoy and delight.
And I think what's interestingis like which I'm curious how
(28:12):
you've seen this is that I endup obviously working with my
clients a lot on the unit shift.
And then a lot of times peoplewill say I wish, I almost wish I
could be as productive as I waswhen I was working out of a
place to survival.
I'm curious if you have anythoughts on that.
Kat HoSoo Lee (28:37):
Yeah.
So I feel like the firstthought that I had and I'll
circle back to this concept oflike productivity the resistance
that I hear from folks as I'mlike I feel like I'm pretty
transparent about like let'screate an intentional and slow
(28:59):
business, let's, you know,create something that's
sustainable and not a quickflash in the pan.
And even though I have all thatmessaging out there, I still
get a lot of resistance fromfolks when they like get into
the actual work of it.
And one of the fears that Ihear is, if I slow down, I don't
think I'm ever going to like beable to start moving again.
(29:23):
And to me, like that's anindication of the broken system
that we live in, and also thislike indoctrination of like we
always have to be doingsomething to be productive, and
so there's there's an aspect ofthis where, like my curiosity
(29:45):
around a question or an inquirylike that is like how fucking
burnt out are you that, like youcan't consider rest as being
part of a work cycle?
Wow, yeah, you know.
And then we get to unpack thatand there's almost this like
(30:05):
sense of like safety that peoplestart feeling once they give
themselves permission to slowdown and see that actually like
with rest, you get to have likea line to action, and so the way
that I like to think of it is,in the in space, in that slow
(30:30):
space, what comes out of thatspace is intention, and then,
with that value of intention,then your young gets to take
over and do what it's reallygood at, which is aligned action
.
I think that what a lot ofpeople end up doing is they get
stuck in the action mode withoutreally thinking about alignment
(30:54):
and intention, and they getburnt out because they're doing
50 things when they could bedoing five.
Yeah.
You know, and so to me I feellike that's like a roundabout
way of answering your questionis like, yeah, you're probably
actually going to be lessproductive Just in terms of,
(31:16):
like you know, you got fivethings done versus 50.
But those five things actuallymoved your business further
along than the 50 things did.
So like wouldn't you want thatinstead?
And then you have time to likebe a human, and for me that
means like homesteading andplaying with my horses, Like I
want to free up as much time asI can so I can go hang out with
(31:37):
my horses, Like I love that.
Yeah, yeah.
Ashley Beaudin (31:44):
Yeah, I love that.
Yeah, that's a great.
I love that you described thatpicture of like rest in the work
cycle, because I think you'reright that I love the way that
we often think about it is not,we do not picture rest in that.
Kat HoSoo Lee (32:07):
Yeah, I mentioned that, something that you teach
as well.
You know you can't talk aboutgeneral business without talking
about slowing down and resting.
Ashley Beaudin (32:15):
Yeah, yeah, and I mean I think that people, like
what you had said there aboutif I slow down, it's like
there's a fear, yeah, it willall fall apart, like that's a
very real fear and so often Ihave found to that in the
(32:44):
slowing down there are.
Also.
It sort of goes against the waythat we maybe have been taught
but we think if we push, push,push and our capacity to create
(33:05):
and grow, these businesses willgrow.
But it often shrinks.
Whereas when we slow down andtend to ourselves and get space,
it actually allows for theexpansion.
It reminds me it kind ofreminds me of like we are.
(33:27):
We love to inhale in business,but we need to make room for the
exhale.
Kat HoSoo Lee (33:34):
Yeah, yeah, and you can't inhale without the
exhale, like you know.
I'm curious about, like, whenyou talk about not hustling, can
(33:56):
you expand on that a little bitmore?
Like what happens in the slow,what happens in the like pause
for you and your clients?
Yeah.
Ashley Beaudin (34:15):
So I think that one thing is really paying
attention to.
What's, in this, becomeimportant for me is really
paying attention to where mynervous system is feeling, and
(34:38):
if I am feeling likedissociative or I'm shutting
down or I feel panicked or Ifeel like everything's urgent I
have learned to give myself thegift of not working then I see
(35:09):
this come up a lot with and Iunderstand this in my own story
of like you know, okay, you'reworking in your business and
you're like I'm not makingenough money.
You know I like need to pay forthings, I need to pay for rent.
Or you know basic life, livingthings, which just gets more and
(35:29):
more expensive as life goes on,and they're immediately because
there's so much threat tosafety in that like I mean, if I
can't pay my rent, like am Igoing to lose where I'm living?
Like there's a very basic senseof safety that can feel
threatened.
So often the my nervous systemwill go into like either it'll
(35:57):
go like totally up or it'll gototally down, and that I would.
What would happen for me isthat then I would create
strategies out of those places.
So I'd be like I'm going to doa sale, I'm going to do a flash
sale, where I'm going to createa whole new product in like 24
(36:18):
hours and I'm going to sell it,and then, when people aren't
buying it, like I'm going to beso mad.
It's just like it becomes thislike spiral, or not even spiral,
but like little journey ofintensity and fear and survival.
(36:52):
And what I had found is thatfor me, I could implement those
strategies, but it was neveractually really going to work.
Yeah, because it was not one, itwas not done out of a space of
(37:13):
feeling connected and safe.
In number two, the things thatwill actually move me forward,
the things that will actuallyhelp me make money, the things
that will actually work in mybusiness, are often not going to
be created out of that state.
And so, you know, reallycreating like almost like a
(37:35):
first response within me of I'mnoticing that this is happening
for me, it makes sense that I'mscared, like it makes sense I
don't feel totally and I need totend to that right now.
And sometimes that's like,that's not like I'm going to
spend months, sometimes that'slike I'm going to I just go like
(37:56):
10 minutes, yeah, just turninginwards and tending to my sense
of safety and tending to mynervous system or befriending my
nervous system, and then comingback and looking at okay, how
can I create a strategy to meetthe very important need of mine?
(38:19):
And out of that space, I havefound that that's that's when
the beautiful and effective workreally happens.
Yeah.
Kat HoSoo Lee (38:33):
I think, as you're speaking, the word that
I'm reflecting on isrelationship.
If I think about my business asbeing a relationship, then I
(38:54):
treat it like every otherrelationship that I have in my
life, which is it's okay to takespace from the people that you
love.
Sometimes, you know, and to me,like that's kind of what
happens in the like anti hustlelandscape of business is,
sometimes I take space away frommy business Sometimes my
(39:17):
husband even to like establish arelationship back to myself and
from that place of reorientingmy relationship of safety back
to myself, then I can tend tothat relationship with the
business or with my husband orwith my friends in a way that
(39:39):
feels more stable.
You know, like, like.
The analogy that I want to makeis like, imagine if he started
dating out of this sense ofscarcity, of like oh, my God,
the clock is running down and Ineed to get married because I
need to, like you know, createthe American slash because
you're in Canada, like Canadiandream of like 2.5 children and a
(40:02):
white picket fence and all the.
You know, like, like, like.
Imagine if you took that conceptthat so many of us validate in
business, which is like hustle,so that you can have a six
figure income and go live inBali and just drink my ties all
day, like, like, if we overlaidthat into the dating world, that
would not work, or it mightwork, but it there's definitely
(40:26):
going to be some cracks in thefoundations of that relationship
, you know.
And so then, to me, the reasonswhy I'm able to step away from
my relationship and trust thatit's going to be there is a
because it I've had thisbusiness now for, you know,
several years and it's beenpretty consistent, and so I have
(40:49):
that trust established with mybusiness that, like, okay, so
there's a consistency here,there's a pattern here.
It's not this like I have toput in the coin to make the
money come out of the casino,you know.
And like that consistency isthere because, like, I genuinely
(41:09):
feel like I have a relationshipwith the people that I'm
speaking to on Instagram or thatI'm speaking to you through my
newsletter, and so, if I need totake a week off of posting,
like I'm not worried about, ohmy God.
Like are they still going to bethere?
It's like, yeah, they're goingto be there.
Like, fuck the algorithm.
I don't know anything about thealgorithm, like you know, if
(41:33):
they're meant to see my work.
They're gonna see my work.
Ashley Beaudin (41:37):
Yeah, yeah, I think something that's been
interesting to you for me, isthat which I'm not, I'm very
like, I'm no expert in this butthe overlay of attachment
patterns in business, in therelationship that we have
specifically with our business.
(41:58):
And I grew up with a real senseof like a disorganized
attachment and like sometimesyour parents are great and
sometimes they're not, sometimesthey're there and sometimes
they're really far, and I feltthat a lot like when I started
my business, like sometimes mybusiness makes money, but not
(42:19):
sometimes not.
Sometimes it's consistent,sometimes it's not.
Sometimes I feel connected,sometimes I feel afraid, and I
think that can just be apowerful awareness tool to look
at and be kind to ourselvesaround, what's happening?
(42:42):
slash.
What do we need?
Kat HoSoo Lee (42:46):
Yeah, it's something that I talk about.
A lot is like.
This is why I feel likebusiness is a spiritual practice
is because I thought I hadworked through my anxious
attachment style.
You know, like I have a reallysecure relationship with my
friends, like my husband, like,and it took a lot of work to get
(43:07):
there.
But then I got into businessand I was like, oh shoot, my
body remembers this feeling.
This feels like really like ifI messaged a client and they
didn't get back to me within acouple of hours.
Oh man, anxious attachmentpattern right there.
(43:27):
Or like if I got off of aconnection call and I felt like
we had a really good chat andthey took like two or three days
to get back to me.
Oh, my goodness.
And so here's anotheropportunity to like, work
through those patterns that arerooted within my sense of safety
and we get to play with it in adifferent playground other than
(43:51):
a romantic relationship or afriendship.
Here it is again.
Ashley Beaudin (43:55):
So, yeah, absolutely yeah, yeah, it's a
totally different context thatcan bring up things in a way
that could not be brought upanywhere else.
Kat HoSoo Lee (44:03):
Yeah, and I think that we do ourselves a
disservice when we say thingslike, oh, there's no place for
emotions in business, or youhave to compartmentalize who you
are in your business world andwho you are in your personal
life, because it's like, then,the feelings that you have in
business if we just use thatexample of, like, anxious
(44:24):
attachment patterns then youmake those feelings wrong about
you.
And they're not actually wrong.
It's a survival pattern thathas helped you survive in the
past.
And so let's identify what'swrong, and so let's identify
what feels threatening and then,like, take active steps to
(44:45):
integrate that.
Ashley Beaudin (44:47):
Yeah, part of me is.
Sometimes it's like stopfragmenting me.
I'm one whole person, and I'mone whole person no matter where
I am Exactly.
Kat HoSoo Lee (45:00):
Absolutely.
I'm gonna look to your littlething here, because your dog you
mean.
Oh my God, I love it.
If you do not invest in yourbusiness, you aren't serious in
religion.
It's if you don't givefinancially, you are not devout.
So it's interesting that youuse the word invest, because
(45:25):
it's a word that I've beenexamining in my own language,
because that's a very.
I haven't made a decision aboutthis and so, like full
disclosure, I don't know.
I don't know where I land onthis yet, but it makes me wonder
about when we use the wordinvest.
(45:47):
Does it then encourage peopleto pay more than they actually
feel safe?
Paying.
Ashley Beaudin (46:00):
Wow, yeah, yeah.
You know, you totally see that.
Kat HoSoo Lee (46:10):
And again, like I don't know where I land on it.
I can't even remember what Ihave on my sales page right now,
but like I'm kind of inclinedto just call it like payment or
this is the price, Like you know, Because the word invest I
(46:33):
don't know it comes from likethe financial world.
There's like a I don't know.
I'm throwing this at youbecause I don't know.
Ashley Beaudin (46:45):
Yeah, yeah.
Kat HoSoo Lee (46:47):
I pick it up Ashley.
Ashley Beaudin (46:49):
Catch the ball.
Well, something that I've beenreally thinking about, that I
feel like I first learned how todo in religion, which is the
types of cultures that I grew upin were very like if God tells
(47:11):
you to do something, who caresif you have the money?
Like if God tells you to dosomething, like do it, the money
will come.
Oh, which is so resonant with.
Kat HoSoo Lee (47:25):
Yes.
Ashley Beaudin (47:27):
The money will come with you and just and coach
you or whatever.
And for what happened for me,it is like that what would
happen is that I would I didn'treally do it when I was in
religion, but then by the time Igot into business I would make
these financial.
(47:48):
I would take financial risks onthe belief that if I just that,
because I had this good idea,or because I had this sense that
I was supposed to do this thing, that it was all gonna work out
, and then when I was kind ofleft in a mess because I never
actually felt safe, to make thatlevel, to take that level of
(48:11):
financial risk without anysecurity net.
It was like a total collapse forthe scenes and the hard thing
about it is that it seems likesuch a good story on the outside
(48:33):
of like I had nothing.
I had a dream, I gaveeverything I had and it kind of
worked out.
Yeah, yeah, and I think I'vebeen processing that because I
feel a little bit like madinside, that, like they taught
(48:53):
me that from the young age, it'svery much not a balanced
approach, it's not rooted inwisdom and it's a little bit
reckless and radical to do that.
But it was just like repeatedover and over and over and it
(49:15):
would just became like this isthe way to do it, this is the
way to respond to this sense,and I had to deal with some
major fallout in my businessthat was incredibly difficult to
deal with.
Kat HoSoo Lee (49:33):
I think not that I feel like I've
compartmentalized as part ofmyself, because I certainly do
have a lot of feelings around it, but I haven't really shared
that much about my grandparents,so, like I didn't grow up with
a ton of like religiousupbringing.
I left the church when I was 16, but my grandparents are like
(50:01):
the most devout of devoutchurchgoers and it's been
upsetting to me watching them.
They're now in their mid-70sthat like, as they're sort of
(50:22):
entering into their like elderyears, their mentality is I
can't take this money with meanyway and so God's gonna take
care of me when I go to heavenand so I'm going to take care of
him now, like through thechurch, and so they give so much
(50:46):
money.
It's like painful to watch andit's kind of like like maybe
this is just because I'm alittle bit more scientifically
minded, but like blind faith,yeah, you know, yeah, like I do
(51:09):
believe in an afterlife, I dobelieve that something happens
to our souls.
I don't know that I necessarilybelieve in the Christian idea of
heaven, but like there's thislike blind faith of like blind
faith and also conditionalaspect of it.
It's like if I do this, thenthis is going to happen and I
(51:31):
feel like I see that a lot inthe online coaching industry of
like, if you invest, then you'regonna get the fanciful promises
, and then this is where it getsa little bit tricky, because I
do believe in reciprocity, like,I do believe that there is a
(51:57):
certain level of like you've gotto be and again I'm going to
use this word, not feelingcompletely comfortable with it,
but like invested emotionally,energetically, financially for
it to be meaningful for you.
It's got to hurt a little bit,it's got to be a little bit
(52:18):
sticky For it to be really likeand I hate that the human psyche
is like this, but like at thiscurrent stage of capitalism,
that's kind of what it is Is.
Like, if I price my thingssuper, super low, then I have a
really high turnover rate and Ihave people who don't show up
(52:38):
and value the work for what itis.
I have my stuff priced veryspecifically because I know that
for my client base, that's alittle bit of a stretch.
It's not so much of a stretchthat they're like disassociating
and like putting themselves ina state of danger, but it is a
stretch, and so I'm curious,like what that's bringing up for
(53:04):
you.
Ashley Beaudin (53:05):
Yeah, I think what was coming up for me in
holding those two things thispattern that we're seeing in
religion and online business,and then also this even I'm just
thinking of, like some of therhythms in nature Planting and
(53:30):
receiving I think what issticking out to me is dynamics
of power Say more, say more.
And I think because in theexample with religion and online
business, there is always inthose contexts, a person or
(53:55):
individual who holds more powerand is influencing the person
and might be not even aware ofall.
Sometimes I think, yeah, theyare, sometimes I don't know if
they are, but all these ways ofconvincing people to give slash
buy that is rooted inmanipulation, shaming,
(54:25):
overcoming objections.
Kat HoSoo Lee (54:28):
God, I hate that.
We could do a whole podcastepisode about overcoming
objections, a whole series.
Ashley Beaudin (54:39):
Whereas, yeah, I don't know, like, if you are,
for example, if I think of me inthat church context of there,
here's this person in authoritythat I respect telling me it is
time that they're queuing themusic up.
(55:01):
The piano is getting louder,the drums are playing.
Kat HoSoo Lee (55:08):
Oh, I hadn't even think about the somatic
experience of it, because I wastoo young, right Like I didn't
actually give alms Right.
Ashley Beaudin (55:17):
And I mean the churches that I grew up in,
because they were Pentecostal,they were very emotional.
I think anyone who has theexperience of being in those
types of settings there is anemotional and sensory experience
that holds a different kind ofpower.
(55:39):
You know, like the classic.
I mean I don't know if everyonelistening will know what I'm
saying here, but the scene ofpeople falling over or getting
slain in the spirit and quotes,that's what they normally call
it.
As a young person I wasconstantly falling over and I
(56:02):
didn't understand, in some ways,what was happening to me.
But it was described to me aslike God is moving on you, he
has chosen you, he's moving onyou.
I don't know what I totallythink about all of this, but I
do think that there is a levelof sensory overwhelm, yeah,
(56:24):
dissociation, submitting to you.
There almost feels like in mybody, like this, like point of
submission To you what'shappening, like in the room or
what's happening, becausenormally when you're in a
setting where, like, you'reabout to fall over, there's
(56:47):
someone in front of you usuallysomeone who holds more power
putting their hands on youyelling.
I don't know, that could belike a lot of different things
happening.
Yeah.
I just think about all thosethings together.
For me within that culture, howcould I not have I don't know?
(57:09):
It's like I almost like look atthat and I'm like how could I
truly have full consent in a lotof those settings to say what I
believed or gave because Iwanted to that power, volunteer
because it felt good to me.
It was really hard to reallyhard to do that and and so when
(57:35):
I think about this conversationaround money, I think when
there's power present, whenthere's power dynamic present,
when that power is not beingtreated intentionally or with
(57:59):
care, yeah, I think I wanna sortof jump on this concept because
there's essentially marketing.
Kat HoSoo Lee (58:19):
I'm gonna bring it to the all-man coaching space
.
Yeah, essentially, withmarketing, what we are trying to
invoke is a motion toward usyeah, right.
And that motion can be done intwo ways.
It can be done throughactivating the sympathetic
(58:42):
nervous system, where we put alot of pressure onto that
individual so that they see thatfleeing towards you means that
you're going to rescue them fromthe thing that is scaring them
in their life.
Or you're activating an anxiousattachment wound, which is a
(59:08):
fight response right.
And so then they're gonna movetowards you versus and to me,
that's everything that is wrongabout traditional marketing
practices is we are purposefullyand whether people have a sense
of the nervous system or notwe're training people to
(59:31):
activate people's sympatheticnervous systems by slamming on
pain points, by putting yourselfin as an authority, by saying
the window of time that you cansign up is this much amount of
time, and basically by creatinga lot of scarcity and pressure.
(01:00:01):
Or the way that I like to thinkabout marketing is like this is
a relationship, and so you havea lot of space and time to think
about what your decision isgoing to be.
I'm here to tell you exactlyhow I can support you.
I'm here to help educate you onhow we can point you back
towards yourself and,essentially, people can move
(01:00:24):
towards you through a sense ofsafety instead of scarcity and
if they're looking to you forsafety, like to me, that is a
much more obviously a much moreconsensual relationship, and
that's what I'm hearing in thechurch is like.
(01:00:46):
By drumming up the music andhaving the pastor stand right in
front of you and put his handson you, and with the yelling and
the screaming and the highemotional intensity of it, it's
like we're activating people'ssympathetic nervous systems and,
(01:01:08):
in the case of falling over,like activating it to the point
that you're actuallydisassociating.
Ashley Beaudin (01:01:14):
Yeah, yeah, as a child, which is the whole other
thing.
Kat HoSoo Lee (01:01:23):
Yeah, and then on top of that you get validated
because God's put his hand onyou right, and so then we start
seeking and looking for that.
Yeah, and to me, like there'slike the contrast between like a
dopamine inducing sort ofrelationship versus like a
(01:01:46):
serotonin inducing relationship.
You know, like that dopaminehit of like oh dang, like now
everybody's eyes are on me andlike that's got to feel like a
rush.
On another level, yeah.
Ashley Beaudin (01:02:02):
You know, yeah, I'm the chosen one.
Yeah, yeah, I have a couplethoughts.
Number one is I had actuallybeen thinking about this
recently because I found myselfdoing it.
You know, when you're in thosemoments you're like, why am I
saying this?
And I was thinking that.
(01:02:28):
So a big thing in the churchcontext I grew up in was the
idea of altercalls, which is,like you know, usually where the
slain and the spirit thingwould happen, whereas, like,
someone would give a message ora sermon, then they call up
musicians and then they givethis like, call, like if this
(01:02:52):
resonates with you, basicallylike, come to the front, show
your participants in this yourresponse to this.
And I was thinking about itbecause a lot of times what they
would say was language like, ifyou feel something happening in
your heart, come forward.
(01:03:12):
If you feel like your heart hasjust started beating really
fast, that's like that's God,come forward.
I was thinking about it becausesometimes I and I guess maybe I
don't know if I learned this inchurch, I don't know if it just
got mirrored in business butsometimes when I would talk
about programs, I would say ifyou feel like something in your
(01:03:38):
heart is like pulling youforward, come to the front.
Kat HoSoo Lee (01:03:42):
Basically, yeah, I feel like I have that in my
language even too howinteresting we're like doing
altercalls Something to examinefor sure.
Ashley Beaudin (01:03:56):
Yeah, it's just an interesting notice, like
where is that language comingfrom inside of me and why am I
speaking it forward in that way?
And I mean it could be totallyfine, but I think it's just an
interesting point of reflection,especially someone who's
experienced it.
Yeah, in those contexts, ohinteresting.
Kat HoSoo Lee (01:04:24):
Hey, I think the fact that you're examining it is
like a reflection of like thisis why we ascribe to ethical
business, right yeah Issometimes we do things without
knowing and we have to examineit.
We have to go and look at itagain and be like, hey, does
(01:04:47):
this still feel in alignment?
Where did that come from?
Where is that language incoming from?
Right yeah, and like I willfully admit to, I did the pain
marketing thing because that wasall I knew, particularly when I
was an acupuncturist.
That's how we're taught is likebasically call out people's
(01:05:12):
pain and let them see you as anauthority and let them know that
you're going to rescue themfrom that pain.
And so this languaging around,if you feel resonance in your
heart or if you feel flutter inyour heart like interesting, I'm
(01:05:36):
gonna sit with that too.
Ashley Beaudin (01:05:39):
Yeah, I think it is interesting.
The other thing I was thinkingabout, which, I suppose, is the
idea of love bombing, is a lotof times when church is trying
to get people to join, there canbe a lot of love bombing of
(01:06:00):
like cause you're, you know,maybe you're trying to get them
to convert or stay, or whatever.
Kat HoSoo Lee (01:06:09):
Whatever?
Can you define?
What love bombing is Cause?
I only just recently learnedabout this term, so there might
be people out there who don'tknow it.
Ashley Beaudin (01:06:19):
I'll just give you my perception of the term,
which is basically like anintense outpouring of
compliments, attention, praise,love, to make an individual feel
really, really good.
So you know, I think it's useda lot in abusive relationships,
(01:06:41):
used a lot in cults.
Kat HoSoo Lee (01:06:43):
Yeah, that's the context.
I know it is in narcissisticrelationships.
Ashley Beaudin (01:06:46):
Right, yeah, I had never thought of that until
recently as love bombing, but Ican see how it could be very
resonant at times for folks oflike, like, even I think, for me
.
I'm this like 14 year old, Idon't, I'm not getting a lot of
love at home and I'm suddenly inchurch and I'm getting all this
(01:07:11):
like attention and affectionand hugs and like you have
purpose and you're amazing andyou're loved, and I was like
give me more.
I just like want to eat this up.
When I was around 14, Iremember saying to a friend of
mine that the reason that I keptgoing back to church was
(01:07:33):
because I loved getting hugs andI didn't feel like I could get
that at home but I could get somany like on a Sunday morning.
And the thing about lovebombing is the idea that like,
yeah, eventually it's sort oflike fades right and then you
know it might move on to otherthings, sometimes not the
(01:07:54):
greatest things.
But I was thinking also aboutthis idea in business of
nurturing leads and depending onhow someone might go about
these strategies, I think I wasspecifically thinking about it
less than a general license oflike I'm nurturing leads through
like.
(01:08:15):
I don't know doing free classesor opt-ins or downloads or
podcasts or whatever, but morewhen people go off.
You know, really pursue people.
Kat HoSoo Lee (01:08:26):
The cold DMs.
Ashley Beaudin (01:08:28):
Yeah, yeah, like they're in your comments,
they're in your DMs, they'reresponding to your stories and
sometimes you can feel thatsense right Of like.
I feel like you want me to buyfrom you that feels very
resonant to me of you want me tocome to your church, some of
(01:08:53):
these like nuances andcomplexities.
It's I just feel so like.
I feel like even through ourconversation, I'm like, oh my
gosh, like I just feel like I'mseeing more and more yeah, yeah,
relationship for me.
Kat HoSoo Lee (01:09:08):
But, yeah, I mean , I think that the question that
I have there is like, like,what is the healthy version of
that?
Because, yeah, I'm imaginingyou as a 14 year old who didn't
get hugs at home and you weregetting that need met at church.
Yeah, you know, like, why isthat such a bad thing?
And you know, like, I'mimagining and we can sort of
(01:09:35):
like overlay this onto the likecoaching space, but like I'm
imagining, in that moment you'refeeling seen, heard, known,
ununderstood, and so like, like,at what point does it flip over
into and I don't have an answerfor this like, at what point
does it flip over intomanipulation and coercion?
(01:09:57):
Yeah, versus, like, like, if Isaw a 14 year old who wasn't
getting loved at home, I wouldwant to also like have some care
and consideration for that 14year old.
Ashley Beaudin (01:10:12):
Yeah, 100%, and I think that, like, I think that
that's why I can still say thatin some ways, the church really
helped me and it was a safeplace.
Yeah, yeah, I think what Ithink the thing that I'll say is
(01:10:37):
that, or where it gets sort offlipped is in the why.
Like is it, like let's forget,like let's talk about it, like
(01:10:59):
I'm talking about me as 14.
Like, am I meeting this littlehuman because I see that they're
in need of care?
That's one thing.
I think it's another thing ofI'm going to meet this young
person with care so that theycan become a member or they can
(01:11:26):
become a next big thing.
Yeah, become a really bigfinancial donor, like whatever.
Yeah, that's the difference, Ithink, for me.
Kat HoSoo Lee (01:11:37):
Yeah, and I'm even thinking of like.
Reflecting that back to likemarketing is like are you
marketing just to get people tosign up for your programs, or
are you marketing with, like, asense of like non-attachment,
(01:12:02):
and by non-attachment I don'tmean like I don't care, but like
from a sense of like hey, likeI'm putting out valuable work
because I think that it's goingto serve people, whether or not
they sign up for my stuff or not.
Yeah.
And then the financial successends up becoming almost like a
byproduct of you nurturing theserelationships, versus, like you
(01:12:27):
, being singularly focused on,like, getting that next client
or getting that, like you know,x number of enrollments in your
program.
Yeah, am I hearing thatcorrectly?
Ashley Beaudin (01:12:42):
Yeah, it's like.
It makes me think, like, areyou appearing to love or believe
or care for me so that you canhit a mark or you can make a
sale, or do you genuinely love,care, support, believe Because
(01:13:08):
you want to?
Kat HoSoo Lee (01:13:09):
Yeah, and you can feel that too.
Like, even in like a, you know,even in the virtual space,
sometimes I'll get somebody wholike, likes, like 10 pictures in
a row and then comments on likethree of them, and then I get a
DM that's like, oh my gosh, I'mloving your work and you know,
(01:13:34):
I'll give a very sort of likeFrank reply, because already my
like Spidey senses are up andthen eventually the like pitch
comes right.
It's like, you know, I'mlooking for an entrepreneur,
just like you, like, so like.
Ashley Beaudin (01:13:54):
Yeah, I think it's a really good example of
what I've been trying todescribe in this yeah.
When it's like, like, almostlike, what's the word I'm
thinking of?
This is not it, but likesomething to be conquered.
Kat HoSoo Lee (01:14:14):
Yeah, yeah, and like to me like the reason why I
think my Spidey senses come upis because it's like we don't
have a relationship.
Like you, liking 10 of myphotos does not mean that we
have a relationship, and so,yeah, that feels really icky and
(01:14:34):
like it's like a thing that'staught right, yeah, it is.
Yeah, I know, you know.
Like that's like a strategy,like a marketing strategy that
people teach.
Mm-hmm no.
Ashley Beaudin (01:14:46):
No, yeah, I think what I want to say to you
is that I just feel like thisconversation, between the
overlap of the two Well, I feellike I say this about everything
, and I'm sure you probably doto some level too of like it's
just so nuanced, yeah, and ourexperiences are all so different
no-transcript group that's beeninvolved in my own story or
anyone else's, but I think thatthey're something really
(01:15:06):
powerful and talking about thesethings and giving language for
reasons why, maybe focal pointsbetween uhèleANCIT I feel like
it's just kind of like a sort ofrelevance for people why maybe
(01:15:28):
folks have felt uncomfortable orunsure or that seems like a lot
to me, and I hope that that iswhat this conversation can do
for people.
Kat HoSoo Lee (01:15:41):
Yeah, and I think that the nuance there is so
important because even in yourstory, like, we found the nuance
of like well, that's why thechurch was actually healthy for
me.
Yeah, you know, like youhaven't thrown out the baby with
the bathwater and you know havesaid like, oh my gosh, like I
was completely abused in thechurch.
It's like no there was actuallylove and care there that I
(01:16:03):
wasn't getting at home, and so,like we can look at this with
like a neutral lens, so that wecan make decisions that feel the
most aligned for us at the time, you know, knowing that we are
constantly evolving, constantlylearning, constantly practicing
human beings, and we might makea different decision six months
(01:16:27):
from now, a year from now, right.
Ashley Beaudin (01:16:31):
Yeah yeah, holding space for whatever's
present at the time.
Yeah, yeah.
Kat HoSoo Lee (01:16:39):
Is there anything else that you feel like you
want to land in with before weclose up for today?
Ashley Beaudin (01:16:53):
I think I just want to say that if there's
anyone listening that feels aresonance specifically with some
of the overlap whether that'sin a small way or a really big
way that what I would deeplyencourage is to find, even if
(01:17:24):
it's like the smallest sense ofsafety within you, and also that
you're not alone in theseexperiences and these overlaps
and also like it makes sensethat online business would feel
(01:17:48):
safe if that has been, some ofthese like anchors or criteria
almost have been present inother settings and also that you
deserve an experience ofbusiness that it genuinely and
truly feels safe and kind andconnected and gentle.
(01:18:15):
And I think I speak for both ofus when I say we wrote and
desire that for you.
Kat HoSoo Lee (01:18:23):
I love that.
Well, thank you so much forspending your afternoon with me.
I'm really excited to sharethis with me.
People, I'll have all of yourlinks and stuff in the show
notes, but if people wanted tojust find you and follow you on
Instagram from this conversation, instagram handle, website, all
(01:18:46):
those pieces, what are youraddresses?
Yeah, that's great.
Yeah, do you want to say themout loud here so that?
So that people can just go findyou, oh, yeah, I guess they
want to know?
Ashley Beaudin (01:18:56):
Yeah, they might want to know.
Gentle Business Coach onInstagram.
Gentle Business Coachcom is mywebsite.
Kat HoSoo Lee (01:19:08):
Perfect, alrighty .
Well, thank you so much forbeing here, ashley.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah.
Yay.
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