Unravel the complex dance between expectation and artistic expression with Creativity Coach Sarah Cook. Together, we navigate the delicate equilibrium of creativity and business, dissecting the challenge of preserving the sanctity of art while running our businesses. Let this conversation be your compass in reclaiming the joy of creativity, delving into the principles of anti-extractivism and the beauty of a dynamic partnership with our creative selves. Sarah's insights promise a wealth of knowledge for not just artists and entrepreneurs, but anyone seeking a deeper connection with their creative spirit.
This episode is a tapestry woven with personal anecdotes, where I share the constant evolution of my relationship with creativity—from the pressures of generational expectations to the transformative power of aligning one's work with their identity. Listen as we contemplate the significance of the words we choose and how terms like 'reciprocity' can reshape our understanding of productivity. These narratives guide us to foster a creative practice that's not only a source of income but a wellspring of personal fulfillment.
If you are listening to this episode before March 13, 2024, I'd love to invite you to join us for a live workshop that Sarah is teaching for my community: Partnering with Your Creativity. The details to sign up can be found RIGHT HERE.
Resources:
- The e.e. cummings poem I will never ever ever ever write ever again can be found HERE
Sarah Cook is a neurodivergent writer, poet, and creativity coach. She specializes in helping people reclaim their creative agency so they can make with more ease and enchantment. She writes For the Birds, a Substack newsletter about resilience, the writing life, and the natural world.
Connect with Sarah:
Kat HoSoo Lee is an Emotional Alchemy Coach, Spiritual Business Mentor and host of The Emotional Alchemy Podcast.
She loves playing in the space where science and spirituality converge because this is where we get to experience emotional alchemy. In her work, she educates space-holders about somatic physiology and environmental biology so they can deepen their practices of listening and presence which ultimately helps them expand their capacity to hold space for others.
As a Spiritual Business Mentor, she guides soulful entrepreneurs to approach their business as a spiritual practice. The work bridges the emotional landscape with practical tools which allow them to cultivate businesses that are rooted in conscious values, relational marketing and purposeful service.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello, my friends, we get to hang out with Sarah Cook
today and she is a creativitycoach and she is somebody who
has an unusual place in my life.
I was just sending you amessage.
The other was that just lastnight that I sent you that
(00:22):
message.
I think it was.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Yeah, like less than 24 hours ago.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
What is time.
So Sarah is an unusual personin my life because she came in
through business alchemistmentorship and she has sort of
like bridged lots of differentrealms of now being a
collaborator.
I attend a lot of hercreativity resilient circles.
(00:50):
I have plans to, fingerscrossed, write something bigger
than a Instagram post at somepoint in my life, potentially a
book, and when that happens, Iknow that Sarah is going to help
me do that into the world.
I'm just not quite there yet,and so I was just reflecting,
(01:11):
apparently yesterday, that I'mjust so grateful when I get to
have these people in my lifewhere we are able to flexibly
move through these differentroles and hold boundaries in a
way that feels expansive andreally honors each of our own
sort of space holding capacities, and so today I have asked
(01:37):
Sarah to come on to our programand chat with us about
creativity, partially because Ifeel kind of like weird saying
this out loud, but as somebodywho, like, looks at everything
through a relational lens, Ithink you were the first person
who it like, actually clickedfrom you, and you were like you
(01:59):
can have a relationship withyour creativity, and I was like
what?
So, yeah, thank you for givingmy creativity a body of voice, a
bit of a sassy voice, and thenI've also asked her to come and
(02:26):
teach a workshop for mycommunity.
So if you're listening to thisbefore March 13, 2024, you can
come join us live.
We're going to be meeting at11am Pacific Standard Time.
The concept around the workshopis called partnering with your
creativity and even if you'relistening to this after that
(02:48):
date, you won't be able to joinus live because at this point we
can't really time travel.
But you can download therecording and I'm really really
excited to have her on the show,have her teach within my
community and continue topromote your work, sarah, so
welcome.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
What an intro.
I love being an unusual personin people's lives.
That's like a great role in mymind.
And also I really appreciateyour candidness around the like,
the sort of tension maybearound that metaphor of like
having a relationship with yourcreativity and the way it needed
(03:30):
to like click and then itclicked in a really big way for
you, because you might recall, Ialso had initially kind of
struggled struggles too strongof a word, but like the idea of
being in relationship with mybusiness felt very, very, very
abstract to me for a very longtime.
And I think it wasn't untilafter BAM that I sent you like a
(03:52):
very long voice note and I waslike, oh my God, I get it, I get
it.
Like it didn't click and then,when it clicked, it has now like
stayed, clicked in the depthsof my soul in such an important
way.
So I like the sort of likemirroring that's happened for
each of us.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
I love it.
I've forgotten about thatmoment for you and just like
that, I just remember.
I can't remember exactly howyou put it, but I just remember
the like excitement that youfelt to like, like, feel this
sort of tangible relationship toyour business and, in a way, I
(04:39):
feel like I'm still starting toreestablish that with my
creativity.
I don't feel like I'm likesearching for it in the same way
, but I think that relationshipsare all different, right, and I
haven't gotten the click, asyou call it, for me, even when I
fell in love with my husband.
(05:00):
It was this like slow the lightis turning up in the room kind
of a sensation, and so I feellike it's similar with my
creativity personally.
It's not this like lightningbolt, lock eyes from across the
room and, like now, I get yousort of a feeling.
(05:21):
It's more of a like, like let'sfeel each other out, and like
let's see what this is andwhat's actually here.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Yeah, well, I love that you're like comparing it to
this very importantrelationship of yours, because
that, to me, is demonstratingthe way you're engaging with it
in this like very relational way.
Right, and even this idea thatyou could be okay having
expectations of your creativitythat are slower, that are that
(05:53):
where you're like not worried,like what you just said.
I don't hear any worry in you.
At least they're expressingthat.
It hasn't clicked yet.
It sounds like you just kind ofknow, oh yeah, there's a thing
that's unfolding.
I'm like heading there slowly.
I think that's how a lot ofgood things function.
Yeah, I think that's great.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Can we dive into expectations?
Just because you kind ofbrought that up.
Yeah.
I think part of the strugglethat I have with creativity and
I think that this is probably acommon theme for a lot of
spiritual entrepreneurs is thatbecause our work is so creative,
you know, you can't deny that.
(06:39):
You know, coming up withcurriculum isn't creative like
you know, creating workshops,putting writing out there,
putting even like I think aboutsocial media as this like new,
strange art form there's reallybeautiful, like pieces that
people create.
And you know, just because youput it up in the digital space
(07:02):
doesn't mean that it's no lesscreative.
And, as a spiritualentrepreneur whose creativity is
tied to your income, is tied tolike a tangible output, how do
(07:23):
you manage that dynamic ofhaving expectations of your
creativity but then also givingit like a loose enough leash
that it doesn't feel stifled andit then doesn't become this
like transactional relationship?
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Excuse me.
Yeah, I mean I think this iswhy.
So something often that happenswhen I have, like a new client
who finds me.
A lot of folks come to me for alot of different reasons, but a
very common one is they have abook that they're wanting to
write and they come to me andthey have this project and one
(08:05):
of the first things I will askthem is okay, what other
creative things do you work onother than this book or other
than this project?
And, and you know, sometimespeople have answers to that and
sometimes they don't, and I'malways a huge advocate that
people have other routes inwhich they're engaging with
their creativity and working onthings, and even writing, even
(08:27):
within the world of writing,like all of your writing, I'm
going to say, shouldn't be, youknow, funneled into the book or
this external facing thing,because I think that creates the
kind of pressure that sets usup to have like unfair
expectations of our creativity.
I think we have to be tending itin ways that are not public
(08:49):
facing and in ways that are justprivate, and and that is not to
say I mean, you know, sometimesI'm working on something and it
becomes a public facing thingor it finds its way into a
newsletter.
Right, these aren't hard andfast boundaries, but I just
think it's sort of like you know, a healthy ecosystem is one
that's diverse, like we needdiverse expressions of our
(09:12):
creativity, even if they're allwithin the same genre or medium.
I just think we have to betending it in multiple ways
because that that like need forplay and experiment, like those
things are going to lookdifferent in the context of
paying my bills every month andneeding to think about certain
(09:34):
things, needing to be discerningabout what I'm creating, and so
it feels sort of unfair to ourcreative channel to only tend it
within like a business or anexternal facing context, just
like too much pressure on it.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna take a pause because it sounds
like it's gone now.
Is there a dryer or somethinggoing on in the background?
Speaker 3 (10:06):
There is.
Let me go turn it off.
Yeah, one second.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Sweet, good catch, I caught it.
(10:33):
Sometimes I've recorded entireepisodes and then Andre's been
like did you hear that thing inthe background?
And I'm like no, and then Ilisten back and I'm like yeah,
there was a thing and I justdidn't hear it.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Yeah, and you know what, not to create too much
difficulty, but I am realizing Iusually set up my microphone
and I didn't.
I'm just doing this through mylaptop, which I have done before
for other podcasts.
Do you want me to just plugthat in real quick for better
sound mode, or okay?
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Let me.
I'm sure Andre will be yeahwith better sound.
Sometimes he picks up on soundthings that, like I never even
like register Like.
The reason why I have a sockover my microphone is because he
complains about my S's and T's.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
Oh my god, let me, let me grab something real quick
.
Yeah, is that Ruby again.
(11:49):
That is so cute Okay.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Let me help you.
What you're wanting is a fold.
I fold it for you, that better.
I made you a little nasty rightthere.
Yeah, yeah, there you go.
And then you got like a littlechin rest.
There you go.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
Oh gosh, I'm just thinking my so my outlets on my
laptop.
Do you have a Mac?
It's like they're too closetogether for me to have two of
these like dongles plugged in atonce so I can plug my mic in,
(12:48):
but then I do have like a lightbehind my laptop, so I'll just
have to unplug that, so I mightjust be a little darker.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Okay, let's see what it looks like.
Okay, I mean more people listenversus watch on YouTube, so I'm
more concerned about sound thanI am about.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
Okay.
So yeah, it is a little fuzzynow.
Gosh, I'm usually more preparedthan this, I'm just going to
try to get it to work.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
It's all good.
It just means that you are notnervous.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Well, yeah, I'm just going to try to get it to work.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
That's a that's actually really true, I think
what you just said.
Okay, let me see.
I'm guessing I probably have tochange a setting now.
Oh, I can't switch mics whilewe're recording.
Oh, okay.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Well then, let's just leave it.
Okay, because we've recordedenough that I don't want to like
lose it.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Sweet Okay.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
Sorry about all that here.
Let me at least plug my lightback in.
Okay, Okay A little bit Okay.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Um, let me pick up where you left off.
Hmm, why do I hear myself againHello, hello, hello, hello,
hello.
Okay, it's gone now.
I don't know why it was pickingup on my sound again.
Um, I don't know what I'm doing, I'm just going to turn it off.
(14:49):
Um, hearing you say all thataloud, I feel like there's like
something tingly happening withlike an inner teenager, inner
child, because I think so manywell, I shouldn't say so many of
us I'll just sort of speak formyself and my own experience of
(15:16):
sort of being trained to onlyput an effort if it's going to
have some sort of like payoff atthe end.
I think growing up it was verymuch and I think this is a bit
(15:36):
of a generational thing and Ithink it's actually gotten worse
with this more recentgeneration of like you go to
kindergarten to get into thegood grade school, which then
gets you to the good like highschool, which then you have to
do, you know, cross off all yourT's and do all the extra
(15:58):
curriculars in order to get tothe good college.
And you know, I feel like therewas like even with the things
that I absolutely loved, youknow, like I was in okay, so
this is like super nerdy versionof me, but I'm going to own it.
I was part of the like futureFarmers of America club when I
was in high school and we raisedlike sheep and cows and it's
(16:21):
like truly something that Iloved and obviously it's
something that I continue tolove because I want to, you know
, be a farmer.
I'm like an aspiring farmer.
But like even with that, it waslike, oh, you're doing this.
At least the message that I gotfrom my parents was this like,
like, oh, you're doing this sothat you can put that down as
(16:42):
like good extracurricularactivity will then help you get
into a good school.
Or you know a lot of thevolunteer work that I was doing
around that time was also around, you know, volunteering in
veterinary clinics andvolunteering in hospitals, and
all that was like just to like,rack up the like point total to
(17:04):
like get to the thing and italways felt like it was like, oh
, like, then that's going to getyou to the next thing, and then
the next thing, and then thenext thing.
There was never this idea oflike, hey, like you can just do
that thing, just because itsimply brings you joy.
You know, which is kind of whatI'm hearing with you.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Why is my printer doing that?
What the hell?
Well, now I'm like what is it?
Speaker 3 (17:35):
printing.
I'm so curious.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
I don't know what I'm printing.
I have no idea.
Well, it printed a thing.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
That's wild, so I'll just pick up off of that.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Andre.
So it always is like idea likealways be doing something to get
to the next thing, and evenjust you naming hey, like you
can just do a thing, even ifit's writing, and even if you're
craft that you do sort of putout there publicly is writing,
(18:11):
you are still allowed to writefor the sake of writing, write
for the joy of writing or pursueother creative practices that,
like, are completely outside ofwriting, just for the hell of it
, because it brings you joy.
Yeah, and there's like a partof my like in our teenager
that's, that's.
(18:36):
I don't know Like it's.
it's not something that I likeis something that I've heard
before, but I think I'm gettinglike an idea of what I'm doing.
It's not something that I like,is something that I've heard
before, but I think I'm gettinglike another click of it here,
as we're sort of speaking thisout.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
Yeah, yeah, it's so hard and it's really why, like,
I just think everything comesback to the importance of having
an anti capitalist lens forthings.
Right, because what we'retalking about is like value.
Like that can things bevaluable and we're having a use
value outside of like earning usprofit, outside of counting or
(19:19):
not counting toward ourproductivity right, we're
talking about just like pleasureand creative experience that
isn't necessarily always tied toa creative product.
It makes me think for anyonewho, like has a really hard time
leaning into that of just doingsomething creative for the joy
(19:43):
of it.
Right, because I know that canfeel really sticky.
Right, because these messagesare old and they're also
everywhere, and so it's we'relike constantly having to swim
upstream to like give ourselvespermission to do something that
isn't productive or that isprivate or that won't go on our
social media, right, so I getthat that's hard.
I wonder, for those of us whoalready have like a strong sense
(20:03):
of being really like anticapitalist in our practices, if
we can like harness some of thatin order to tend like a
different and more robustrelationship with our creativity
.
Right, because I might feellike, well, I'm definitely anti
capitalist in my practices andmy business and my
entrepreneurship.
But I have a hard time creatingjust for myself.
(20:25):
But if I think of that as partof that anti capitalist practice
, that could create a differentdoor into that house, right Like
that, that could create adifferent like way to play
around with that idea if itfeels really tricky.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
I think what you're bringing up for me is, you know,
of course everything is aspiritual practice.
At least that's how I sort ofview things, and you know I've
said this many times beforewhere it's like oh yeah, you
know, the reason why business isa spiritual practice is because
(21:04):
all the things that you thoughtyou worked on outside of
business you know attachmentstuff hey, you get into business
and now here's another way tolike learn that thing again.
And what I'm hearing you say is, at least the reflection back
(21:24):
to me is like I have done a lotof work around being anti
extractivist and, you know,creating ethical business
practices and really looking atsort of my own place in the like
consumer cycle and becausethere isn't like, because there
(21:46):
isn't like money tied to mycreativity, at least, not in the
like sort of like super directsense of the word.
like I'm not an artist, that isnow like creating something that
people are wanting to purchase.
It's like a tangible thing,like I'm seeing this now as like
(22:08):
oh, here's another place whereyou can actually do that anti
extractivist work in a differentsort of playground, in a
different sort of arena.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
Yeah, and I kind of I just want to like stay with
what you just said a tiny bitlonger, because I feel like what
we're talking about there'slike two pieces of it that are
just as important, and the oneis, yes, you, you don't need to
have anything financial tied toyour creativity for it to be
(22:42):
worthwhile.
Period, that's it Like.
And I kind of want to challengewhat you just said about your
creativity not tied to yourincome, because that when you
say that word artist, I knowwhat you mean and even that,
though, I see a lot of peoplewho are doing very creative
(23:02):
things, but we have this idea of, like the fine arts in our mind
like you're writing a novel orpoetry, or you're you're taking
fancy black and whitephotographs or you're painting
with, like oil or watercolors,and that counts as being an
artist.
Like I'm really curious aboutwhat a modern, inclusive
(23:23):
definition of artist might looklike, you know, because I can't
help but and I'm saying this asyour friend, as someone who has
received mentorship and coachingfrom you, as someone who's
talked with you about creativitymany, many times I don't know
that I believe you when you sayyour, your creativity is not
tied to your income.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Yeah, well, thank you for calling that out, because
I'm realizing, even just in thisconversation I've contradicted
myself because I said exactlythe opposite at the very
beginning, which then, like Idon't know, I'm just like, I'm
just like show you how this likepush pull dynamic that I'm
having with my own creativityand that relationship doesn't
always feel like it's got superclear boundaries, like it has,
(24:10):
you know, the same sort ofrelationship that I have with my
business, like there's thisdeep trust that I have in my
business that like, even when itebbs, it will eventually flow.
You know, I don't think I havethe same kind of relationship
with creativity, and so then itmakes these sort of like
(24:33):
concepts and definitions that Iplace around creativity a little
bit murky and sometimes likemalleable, and so I really
appreciate you.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Hey, like that's not actually true, is it?
Speaker 3 (24:47):
Yeah, well, and I, what I love about this
conversation is I I think it'sso important to that we just
like model and normalize thatpush pull.
Like, whether we're talkingabout creativity or whether
we're talking about business, orI'm sure there are other topics
we could be talking about too Ithink that push pull is such an
(25:07):
organic part of like reclaimingsomething on our own terms.
Right, you, you are in thebusiness of helping people like
reclaim their skills, theirentrepreneurship, their desire
to serve others, like on theirown terms, right, spiritually,
(25:28):
professionally, personally, allthose things.
So I think that is true can betrue with our creativity too.
Right, like we need to sort ofreclaim it from these terms that
we've inherited or learned and,you know, picked up in
classroom spaces that weren'tactually very nurturing all that
stuff, and I think so.
(25:48):
I think that push pull is sonormal and okay, I don't.
I don't think these things arejust like light switches that we
can just turn on and now, now,now I feel better about my
creativity and and we're happilyever after, like there's going
to be the like expansion andcontraction, right, like an
inner, like a nervous.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
It's so funny.
As you were speaking and thisis going to come off a little
bit crass I feel like the voiceof my creativity was piping up
and saying I don't want to beprostituted anymore.
Woo.
And, as I'm like tracking it,it's like I do have a history of
(26:37):
turning my creativity into anextractivist thing.
Yeah, before you know, one ofthe very first businesses that I
opened up was as a calligraphyartist and I used to do like
envelopes for weddings andbirthday parties and I also used
(27:03):
to write people's like weddingvows up in like really beautiful
script and, you know, createart pieces of people's favorite
poems, and it was really fun andbeautiful in the beginning.
But eventually it turned intothis thing where it felt very
(27:27):
technical and mechanical andlike almost like I had like sort
of sucked the creativity out ofit because it was no longer
this like co-creative processwith creativity.
Was this like people are hiringme to do the thing and then I
push out the thing?
Speaker 3 (27:44):
And.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
I'm wondering again like full transparency and
vulnerability here, likemodeling, like I think that
there is a little bit of a fearhere of Is this beautiful thing
that I love, which is businesscoaching, and I do think that
there's a lot of creativity sortof infused in the way that I
(28:07):
look at businesses and Look athow we, you know, put them in
relationship to our bodies andnature and all that stuff.
The last thing I would want todo is to like turn that into a
thing that feels Like mycalligraphy business, and I
(28:30):
don't think I'm anywhere closeto that, but I I'm sort of like
tuning into my creativity andthat's one of the things that's
coming through in thisconversation.
Is this fear of but this is thething we really love and are
super passionate about, and whatif we lose that and it turns
into a thing that is justturning out Numbers and are you
(28:53):
gonna protect me from that.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
Yeah, yeah, that makes so much sense and I don't
even think that messaging that'scoming through.
It didn't strike me as crass.
It feels really accurate andreally truthful and I mean it
sounds like you loved that earlybusiness until you didn't.
(29:16):
And I mean, do you feel, can I?
So I want to just kind of ask aquestion about this do you feel
like you Started loving it lessbecause of Of something that
was taking place in the business, or was that just a sort of
(29:39):
natural kind of, you know,ebbing away from something?
Speaker 1 (29:50):
When I go back to that time in my life, it was
when I was in grad school.
My calligraphy businessactually put me through grad
school, which is really amazing.
And Yet because my expenseswere so high during grad school
(30:10):
and it was such an I want to say, like quote-unquote easy way to
make money Because I could justmake my own schedule around it,
I could, you know there was alot that that felt very flexible
about it and it was like apretty high Dollar per hour sort
(30:31):
of a job.
There was almost this feelingof like I have to.
You know, I remember taking onprojects at the very end when I
was like I really don't want todo this one, like I can go an
entire lifetime not hearing orreading or or listening to an ee
(31:00):
Cummings poem, like About eeCummings that people frickin
love, but especially I like rafi, that's so funny.
I was like, if I have to writeanother ee Cummings poem again,
I'm Going to scream.
(31:22):
But it was like every time Idid that, you know, I was Seeing
the money hit my account andand I needed the money at the
time, you know.
And so it was just this.
Like I Mean, I think it feelsaccurate to like say that I had
a very like prostitute,prostitute slash, like a madam
(31:44):
energy with Creativity.
My creativity was was theprostitute?
Yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
Yeah, no, I think I think it did and I mean it also.
I also hear like, oh, it soundslike Again, if we can stay in
this space of seeing yourcreativity, is this thing that
you're partnering with?
It's like it sounds like thatit also like really supported
you a lot during that time anddid give you some things that
you needed and and Then it had asort of like expiration date
(32:20):
for that particularManifestation of it.
I mean it kind of I feel likeit's.
What you're talking about isalso bringing up this other
thing that feels reallyimportant here, which is like
our Creativity over timeNecessarily is gonna want to
show up in different ways andour enthusiasm for things and
(32:40):
our sense of being reallydevoted to certain practices or
Certain projects like that'sgonna change and I think those
things can end in the same waythat, like winter ends and we
move into a new season right,and sometimes there's grief
there, but it's not bad, likePart of me wants to say.
(33:04):
Like your current Enthusiasm andlove and devotion for the thing
you're doing right now, that'sthe thing to trust more than
anything else, and if thatfeeling changes or goes away,
then that will tell you it'stime to look for a different
route or to reassess thingsright, but I think you can
(33:27):
always Trust that.
That like enthusiasm.
I actually think that Figuringout like, what are we creatively
enthusiastic about is soimportant to Start having this
more robust practice with ourcreativity and to be thinking
outside of like well, what doother people want to see what?
(33:50):
What could I sell?
What could I make money on?
Like just being able to noticeand know that there are certain
Creative things that we love andfeel excited about and want to
protect, like giving that lotsof our attention is Such an
important practice.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
Yeah, and I think too , like when, when we're talking
about it in this way, it's it'stotally true like my
relationship to let's just usecalligraphy just to continue
that theme has changedcompletely, where, like
calligraphy is now somethingthat I do for myself, something
(34:31):
that like itches a part of myADHD brain in a way that nothing
else itches.
And you know, I have taken on acouple of like commissioned
projects from like close friends, and you know, to me, when I've
taken on those projects, like Ifeel like I can't take money
(34:53):
for those projects, I'm eithergifting them or I'm asking them
to make a donation To a charity.
Like I'll pick a subject and belike, can you please send what
you would have sent to me tothis charity, because I think
that my creative process aroundcalligraphy in particular is so
(35:14):
tired of being Like used formoney, and so I Think that
there's a lot of different waysthat we can develop different
kinds of relationships With eachof these things that we do.
You know, I would say that likeother ways that my creative
process flows is, you know, whenI work with my horses or when
(35:38):
I'm doing embroidery or Playingwith watercolors, like, and I
feel like each of them kind ofhas like a different spirit.
I don't know if you feel thatway as well where it's like.
You know, my creative businesspartner has a different and sort
(36:00):
of vibe to, like my watercolorcreative partner, and that's
always sort of like fun to Tosort of play with like yeah
flavors of your creativity.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
Yeah, yeah, and I I really just want to take a
minute to really highlight whatyou shared, because this, this
like medium that you originallybrought up in this context of oh
this, was like a reallyExtractive creative process for
(36:40):
me.
I, you know, was doing thiscalligraphy and Charging too
much and it felt bad.
And all the things you shared,you've literally now Like you
only do it for free and foryourself.
Like that's amazing, what, whata what a healing choice that
you've made for this thing.
Like that's that's reallyincredible.
(37:03):
I Feel like, in addition to thesassiness of your creativity
that was sort of coming up alittle bit earlier like I
Imagine there's a lot ofgratitude there too, because
that's like a pretty startlingshift.
Like it's I, it wouldn'tsurprise me if you said, and I
never touched a calligraphy penever again, right, but instead
(37:26):
you're like no, you know, you'velike you have like shifted and
repaired.
It sounds like I mean, I don'tknow if you'd use that word, but
it you've really shifted yourrelationship with that thing.
Like that feels.
That feels like a pro move.
I.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
Mean, I don't know that I've ever shared the story
of, like my calligraphy creativepartner out loud before and,
you know, really had a chance tonotice.
I know it's like one of thosethings with relationships to
where it's like it's so easy totake that thing for granted.
Mmm.
(38:05):
So thank you for noticing.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, speaking of taking for
granted, like I do think, like II have been, I think creativity
was Honestly, like one of myfirst coping mechanisms when I
was very, very, very young.
I I like found the page Veryyoung.
(38:33):
I have been writing my wholelife and I think if it, you know
, coping mechanism, makes itsound a little more fraught than
I mean to, but I justCreativity has been such a part
of how I understand my ownperson hood for so long that I
think I can sort of like takefor granted that not everybody
(38:55):
has that relationship, you know,and so I, which I think maybe
makes me like a good person tobe a mentor and a guide in this
field, because I'm just likeit's so obvious like it's this
thing that helps us seeourselves and we can use it
privately and it can ground usand it can anchor us and we can
like play with ourselves and,and you know, reflect on who we
(39:17):
are in ways, when we're beingcreative, that we're never, ever
, ever going to be able to do inquite the same way anywhere
else.
I think I'm someone who'salways been like just really,
really clear on that and and Ithink I want to like tie this
back into this relationshippiece.
(39:39):
So I do think for some of us whodon't have that relationship
established and tend to assumethat our creativity has to fit
within these boundaries of youknow, what am I using it for?
What do I have to show for it?
You know, thinking about profitand productivity and all those
(40:00):
things.
I do think viewing it as moreof a relationship again invites
us to think about our creativityand ourselves in the same way
that we would a partner or afriend or someone else we're in
a relationship with, right Likewe would not go to the other
(40:21):
person and just be constantlythinking about what can I get
out of this relationship?
How can I use this relationshipto increase my monthly profits?
You know, it invites us sort oflike a benefit of the doubt and
more generosity.
That I think is really, reallynecessary.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
Yeah, in addition to benefit of the doubt and
generosity, I would also add in,it brings in accountability.
If I'm going to be asking youknow, if we're going to use this
as a relationship example, ifI'm going to be asking my
partner to, you know, dosomething for me, not in a sort
(41:11):
of transactional way, but likein a way that, like I think I
would always be asking myselflike how can I support you in
doing that thing for our team?
You know, like, like I guess anactual tangible example of that
would be like my husband, who'sa bus driver, went through a
(41:33):
pretty intensive like commercialdrivers like training before he
was able to be a bus driver andyou know it was like hard for
him mentally because he's doingthis thing that he's never done
before.
It was really really long hoursand you know he was doing it so
(41:53):
that our you know family'smonthly income would increase,
and so in a very way, there islike a transactional piece of
him doing this.
But I remember asking myselflike, okay, so if he's going to
do this hard thing for ourfamily, you know, what can I do
to like help him out?
(42:15):
Like and so like packing himlunch and you know, sometimes
he'd be really sort of like,like achy sore, and then he'd
probably be like I'm going todraw him a bath at the end of
the day.
And you know, I think that ifwe can all sort of tend to like
our you know, creative spiritsor the spirit of our business,
(42:38):
or you know again like becauseit's not really anything, you
know, I'm even thinking about,can this apply to my garden?
Can this apply to myrelationship with my dog, my
horses?
You know, if we are asking theother, and even if the other is
(43:00):
within ourselves, if we'reasking that other to do
something, that's really hard.
I think the devotional practicethat we have is how can I
support that hard thing?
Speaker 3 (43:13):
Yeah, I love that.
I love that so much.
It's just reminding me, too, of, like, how important the words
are that we use, because, you'reright, what you're describing
is a kind of transaction, butthat word feels so steeped in
the wrong spirit and the word Ijust kept thinking every time
you said it was well, it soundslike reciprocity, which feels so
(43:37):
different, right, sometimes,when I'm talking with clients
about like tasks and we findourselves talking like thinking
through the framework ofproductivity, I sometimes want
to say, well, let's talk aboutfruitfulness, not productivity.
Right, it's like we're stilltalking about making something,
but we're just like shifting thequality and maybe inviting in,
(44:01):
you know, a little bit more oflike a nature inspired
relationship to it.
I don't know, there's justsomething about thinking about
the reciprocity between us andour creativity that feels so
much softer and more generous.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
Absolutely so.
I mean, there's a reason why Iask you to hold so many
different roles in my life andeven within the life of BAM, I
would say because you are astudent, you're a member of the
(44:41):
community.
I've also asked you to be thecommunity moderator for the
Slack channel.
Anybody who joins BAM gets asubsidized creativity.
Reading with you Like this ishow important I think that our
relationship to creativity iswhen it comes to our businesses.
(45:03):
So, like I'm curious how youwould describe this like
somewhat polyamorousrelationship between ourselves
creativity and business.
Speaker 3 (45:25):
That's such a big question.
I feel a little intimidated bythat question, but I think I
actually want to sort of loopback to something I said earlier
in the conversation, where Ikind of alluded to like not
understanding for a really longtime that I was in relationship
with my business and then whenthings finally clicked, they
(45:46):
clicked in like a really big way, and I don't need to get into
all the details of why and howthat happened, but the short
version of what had happened wasI finally realized in a really
big way that my business wasgiving me things and I don't
mean like it's earning me moneyyes, it's doing that but like my
(46:09):
business had createdopportunities for me to step out
into the world with a kind ofconfidence that I had never had
before.
It had created opportunitiesfor me to believe, very casually
, that I was capable of certainthings that I had previously
(46:31):
never thought that I was capableof.
It also I mean, just to befrank, like it allowed me to
work from home during the lastyear and a half of my cat boots
being alive, and if I had notshifted into becoming self
employed, I would have lost somuch time with him that I ended
(46:54):
up having as a result.
You know, these things that Ilike, all the things I just
named, were not things that Isaid I'm going to become self
employed because then I'm goingto be able to do x, y and z.
These were things that werecreated just almost magically as
a result of this process andreally feel to me like gifts
(47:20):
from this relationship that I'mdoing and that, yes, I'm
stewarding and tending and havebeen working really hard and,
all you know, doing a bunch ofthings to move in a positive
direction, but so many of thethings that it's given me I
couldn't have anticipated.
So there's part of being inrelationship with the thing, is
(47:44):
like also being the recipient ofthings, and that feels really
important when we're thinkingabout creativity to, because
we're often thinking about whatam I making, what am I producing
, and also, frankly, justgetting stuck in like what I
guess I want to describe as likeego concerns, like, oh, is this
(48:05):
idea even good enough?
Oh, am I, are these poems good?
Like you know, we get reallystuck in, like assessing quality
, and I feel like when we'retalking about our creativity and
more of a relational aspect andwe create this opportunity for
us to not only be the people whoare, like, in charge and making
things and producing things,but we're also receiving things
(48:27):
from our creativity.
It's again it's like creatingan opportunity to maybe bypass
some of that judgment, becauseit's harder to judge.
It's easier to judge when Ifeel like, well, I'm just
sitting down and makingsomething and I hope it's good,
but when I'm in relationshipwith something it's different.
(48:48):
It's often things it createsmaybe a little more space for
curiosity or a little more spacefor listening, and if we can
just like be in that space withour creativity just for a teeny
tiny bit, I think that's when wecan very quickly unlock like
play and discovery andexperimentation and all these
(49:08):
things that really need a kindof uncertainty and a kind of
openness.
So, yeah, there's somethingabout this, this shape of.
Can we see our creativity as athing that we are the recipients
of and that we receive giftsfrom our creativity, and don't
(49:32):
we want to tend that?
Because, oh my goodness, lookat the like joy and possibility
that it brings into our life.
There's something I don't knowhow much or little.
Speaker 1 (49:43):
I answered your question, but it brings back
that word, reciprocity, that youbrought up earlier.
You know, if we're in you'retotally right like if we're in
any sort of stable, securerelationship with something
there it's not a one waydirectional flow, it is both.
(50:06):
And I don't think that we likewhen it comes to business, I
feel like a lot of times, ifwe're looking at it through like
the capitalist, extractivistmodel, there's always this like
well, it's got to be paying meback and we diminish the like
really, really beautiful giftsthat you just named in terms of
(50:27):
being able to show upconfidently in spaces that you
didn't realize that you couldshow up in.
And like there's not really adollar amount that we could put
on that, and yet the businesshas been the vehicle in order to
be able to like steward that inyour life.
You know, and I think that alot of times people look at
(50:48):
their businesses and say it's afailing business or it's not
doing as well as I want it to be, because we're only looking at
it through this, like one tinymarker.
And I think that we have atendency to do that with
creativity as well, where welook at it through this like
narrow framework of what we canreceive for it from it, and
(51:12):
anything outside of that, likeactual product or anything
outside of that like dollaramount that hits our bank
account, is somehow diminished.
And yeah, I'm just sort of likesitting with like this, like
this sort of like swimmingfeeling of like all the things
(51:34):
that.
I've received from my businessand all the things that I've
received, also from creativitythat is so hard Like and this is
part of the reason why, like inBAM, we stress like what are
your tangible wins?
As well as your tangible winslike?
We want to be able to namethese things that are unnameable
(51:54):
and I feel like that is a actof anti capitalism, like that's
a revolutionary act, like namethe things that are intangible
and say that these things alsohave immense value.
Speaker 3 (52:09):
Yeah, yeah, and to be able to celebrate the things
that are harder to account for,harder to measure, like, harder
to show the other person evenright, like harder to turn into
an Instagram tile or harder tolike, yeah, account for in our
ledger book, you know, to justbe able to.
(52:33):
I mean, there's this sort oflike question of like, well,
what do you have to show for it?
Right?
I feel like what we're talkingabout is like well, me, I have
me to show for it.
Like that has to be, that hasto be the starting point, and I
(52:54):
think that's.
I mean, it sounds like nice andfluffy and and maybe like I'm
saying that through rose coloredglasses, but like, I really
mean it.
Like our creativity, like thething, the, the way that we can
get to know ourselves, createritual for ourselves, create a
(53:15):
kind of like stability ofpersonhood through our set for
ourselves, but also practicebeing in uncertainty and
experiment like, like we can tapinto those things creatively
and I, I think, especially inwriting, in a way that we just
like can't anywhere else and, infact, for people who are like,
(53:36):
still like, but I, I wantsomething to show for this.
It's like okay, we can havethis like really robust
relationship with our creativityand build skills that we can
then bring to other places inour lives.
You know, we can like hone ourquality of attention.
A better quality of attentionis only going to serve us as as
business people as well.
You know, we can like developnew ways for approaching
(54:00):
problems.
We can like practice beingcomfortable with things that
don't make sense and then maybepull a little bit of that into
the rest of our life, wherewe're often going to encounter
things that don't make sense inour heart, because that's just
like part of being a human right.
It's like it's so.
It's so at the core for me oflike just how I move through my
(54:26):
days and I think anybody who isnot tending an active
relationship with theircreativity.
It doesn't feel optional to me.
It feels like oh no, you'remissing out on something
fundamental.
I really think that.
Speaker 1 (54:45):
I love this.
I really need to pee.
Can we take a really good one?
Yeah, I took notes.
I took notes because I knowexactly where I want to take it,
but beautiful beautiful sothanks, of course, this is so
(57:12):
good and I need to pee, so badcan you hear me hello, hello oh
you're, you froze for a secondhello am I good now?
Speaker 3 (57:26):
I can hear you right now sweet.
Speaker 1 (57:29):
I was just saying thank you because that was so,
so good what you just said, and,oh my god, I need to pee so bad
.
Yeah, green tea beforerecording is a fantastic idea.
Hmm bodies what I need yeah so Ilove what you just said and the
(57:57):
thing that I'm sort of likeokay, so I'm obsessed with soil
right now, because the stagethat my farm is at right now is
I am farming, soil is sort ofhow I think about it, and
because everything that I wantto do in the future is going to
(58:22):
be reliant on the health of themicrobiome, the health of the
soil.
What I put into the soil,everything is like it just
points back to soil, and this isa really big tenet of
regenerative farming practicesis it's less about you know what
(58:43):
companion plants are youputting next to each other and
what are you growing and whatare the conditions.
It's like.
If you can get your soil down,like all the other stuff is
going to be easy and so forthose of us who are saying I
still want the thing, you know,like it doesn't diminish that
desire, because I want to growmy own tomatoes one day and like
(59:09):
, if I'm thinking about itrealistically, I'm probably not
going to get decent tomatoes outof my garden for another two
years or so and that is becauseI really feel the, the
responsibility and theimportance of tending to soil in
(59:31):
this way that feels reallyregenerative, that feels like is
not going to take away from theland, like my relationship with
the land is so important that Idon't want to like make her
feel like I'm like stealing fromher and rather it's more about
(59:54):
like how can I add to thedynamics of the land?
and so if we're, if we'relooking at it with this context,
I'm like, oh like.
Creativity is the soil and andthen when we tend to the soil,
it then makes it so that it'sgoing to support all the
(01:00:20):
business things that I want todo down the line, you know.
So you know whether it is Iwant to grow tomatoes, or I want
to grow flowers, or I want to,you know, grow like a native
pasture, like all of that stuffis completely possible, despite
the fact that those are very,very divergent plans because of
(01:00:45):
the tending of the soil and thetending of the creativity.
And so to me it's like like, ifwe're going to talk about this,
like you know, a polyamorousrelationship between you and
creativity and like yourbusiness, it's like it's all
this like great cycle ofreciprocity that really asks us
(01:01:12):
to develop relationship withlike these really sort of like
like base foundational piecesthat like we cannot ignore.
Speaker 3 (01:01:27):
Yeah, yeah, and and these things that we might
assume either consciously orsubconsciously, are in
competition are not actually incompetition.
It's not.
It's also not like I'm saying,well, I've given up the life of
making money and having anythingthat looks at all like success
(01:01:49):
and instead I'm just the likeliving the star, the myth of the
starving artist or whatever youknow.
Like I, I love a lot of mydifferent creative projects.
One of my favorite ones is mysub-stack newsletter for the
birds.
I love when people pay me forthat.
That's great.
Like I have paid subscriptionoptions and that's like one of
(01:02:12):
the most exciting things in theworld to me.
When people sign up and pay mefor my writing, like that's
great.
Right, that me doing that doesnot discount all these other
things I'm talking about.
And all these other things I'mtalking about do not mean that I
can't have a paid model,subscription model for my
newsletter, right?
It's like All of these thingscan serve the other.
(01:02:34):
They're not in competition.
Speaker 1 (01:02:37):
Yeah, yeah, and I think that again it goes back to
that word of reciprocity.
It's like when we take thingsout of this like competitive
model, we start to actually seethat everything supports
everything else.
You know, cause you know if I'mthinking about the soil of the
garden, if I'm thinking aboutthe soil of the business.
(01:02:57):
It's like, yeah, you're goingto have to develop a healthier
relationship with money, becausewe all come into this work with
money wounds.
You know you're also going tohave to develop a healthier
relationship with boundaries,because you know you're going to
be in relationship with otherhumans.
You know whether it's clients orcollaborators you're going to
(01:03:20):
have to develop, like, likethere's so much that goes into
that soil and a lot of times welook at other people's
businesses and be like how didyou grow that amazing tomato?
And it's like you didn't seethe like tending and the health
of the soil and all the workthat went into it beforehand.
And I think that creativity andrelationship to creativity is
(01:03:42):
like one of these, likefundamental things.
I would say it's as importantas like manure that we're adding
into the soil to like make itas robust and nutritious as
possible.
Speaker 3 (01:04:01):
Yeah, yeah, there's something here too.
I feel like I'm not very activeon Instagram right now, but I
feel like I recently had a daywhere I just had a very strong
upset opinion and needed to goand like post something about it
.
I think I posted somethingabout this feeling that like
it's okay if part of ourcreative labor is invisible,
(01:04:23):
like which is not.
I don't mean it in like adismissive way, but I mean like
so much of the good work isinvisible, like everything
doesn't need to fit into.
I'm saying I'm using that wordin a way that's like
invisibility is really big andsometimes visibility can be
really small, and it's like wedon't need to fit all that stuff
(01:04:44):
into again.
This thing that we like canprove or sell or post about.
It's like the devotion that Ifeel, like you and I have been
talking about.
This whole conversation has todo with a lot of things that are
private or quiet or slow,really slow, and like how do you
make slow good things visible?
(01:05:06):
How do you like I can't liketake pictures of all the amazing
things happening undergroundwhen the soil is overwintering
and there's like bugs doinggreat shit down there?
You know it's like we can't seethat, but it's happening.
All that stuff is happeningbefore the thing sprouts right.
So it's again.
This is why it's like, oh myGod, all of this has to do with
(01:05:28):
anti-capitalism.
Like we have to value thethings that we can't readily see
even and we have to just likepractice, knowing that that is
normal and good.
Speaker 1 (01:05:40):
Yeah, and I think that that's where I get like
irritated with a lot of businesscoaching is it's so focused on
the like the fast artificialgrowth of the thing that's only
on the surface of the earth.
You know, instead of reallyemphasizing, hey, like you might
be in a relationship with thisbusiness for like a decade or
(01:06:02):
more, you know, and if that'sgonna be true, then can we look
at what's happening as like acompounding effect?
You know, Instead of it beingthis like I gotta get out of
here real quick, or like get inand get out real quick, you know
(01:06:23):
, which is sort of the energythat I feel from a lot of.
it's why I've had to unfollow somany business coaches Like is
because everyone's saying thesame thing about how easy it is
to turn in an online businessand like, go ahead, try it if
it's so easy.
go give it a try and see howeasy it is, because it's
(01:06:45):
incredibly hard, you know, andthe reason why we're being sold
this idea of online coachingbeing this like easy business is
because then you'll sign up forthat person's you know workshop
or program or whatever.
And I'm here to tell you likethis is hard and I will choose
(01:07:10):
this hard over and over and overagain, because it is so
connected to who I am and themedicine I'm supposed to put out
into the world.
And there's like an undeniabletruth in that for me is like you
get to choose your hard.
And so, in the context ofchoosing your hard, like, which
(01:07:35):
hard do you wanna choose?
You know, I'd say that being anacupuncturist was also hard.
It was just a different kind ofhard and you know, like if
we're constantly looking forjust comfort when it comes to
our work, I think you'll end uplike taking dozens of courses
(01:08:01):
from other people and, you know,trying to escape what you might
consider to be a life ofsuffering.
But it's like, rather, I wouldso much rather say like, hey,
it's gonna be hard and I lovethis hard, the same way that I
(01:08:21):
would say that about mycreativity.
Yeah, and this relationshipwith creativity as well.
Speaker 3 (01:08:28):
Yeah, yeah, well, and I think in both cases the hard
stuff is integral to the joyfulstuff too.
It's like, though all thosethings exist on the same sort of
more depthful, more complex,more challenging level.
Like I just keep wanting to saylike easy is too easy, like no,
(01:08:52):
like we want something likedepthful and complex and rich
and authentic, right?
I think also, what we'redescribing is like a realer
relationship with both of thesethings, and it's so funny to me
how I just feel like everythingwe've said we could say about
(01:09:17):
business and we could say aboutcreativity, like this shape of
how we're talking about relatingto these two things.
It's just so interesting andneat to me to see how those like
the mirroring between those.
You know, it's surprising.
Speaker 1 (01:09:34):
Yeah, I mean, I don't think it's a coincidence that,
like, I feel like there's like ayin to my yang, yang to my yin,
sort of a piece here, becauseit's like you have a more
developed relationship withcreativity, which is what I'm
craving, and I have a moredeveloped relationship with
business, which is also whatyou're craving, and so like, in
(01:09:55):
this reciprocity of relationshipbetween the two of us, it's
like we get to support eachother in the thing that we have
less experience with, eventhough we're kind of talking
about the same thing.
You know and like to sort ofcontinue to like like flesh out
(01:10:15):
this point around.
The depth and themeaningfulness of these
relationships is like I am nowgoing to be entering my forties
very soon.
I am no longer interested inrelationships that are like
dopamine inducing.
I'm fine with these.
(01:10:39):
Like little dopamine hits hereand here and there but like.
I want to create relationshipswith people, with my business,
with land, with all the thingsthat are more on the line of
serotonin which means that it isinherently going to be less
(01:11:00):
flashy.
It's inherently going to be less, like, you know,
sympathetically, sort ofactivating.
And perhaps, you know, maybe,if I circle it back to like what
I was saying at the very, verybeginning of our conversation
around this relationship withcreativity and I don't always
(01:11:23):
trust it all the time I feellike it kind of ebbs and flows
and yet I'm not like trying tolike quick-start it, like I know
that I've done that before andyou know whether that's through,
you know, feeling reallydisconnected to my creativity,
(01:11:47):
and then going on like amushroom trip or like finding
artificial ways to likekick-start it that don't feel
like it's coming from, like aninternally generated place.
I'd rather just sort of likesay I'm here for the long haul,
(01:12:13):
you know like.
I'm ready.
When you are, I'll be here.
It's a lot of the ways in whichI relate to horses as well,
like I have Winnie, who's beenabused in her life, and like I
have no desire to have her doanything other than be herself.
And it's this like very slow,like it took me eight months to
(01:12:40):
even be able to touch her.
It's been this like very, veryslow progression of building
trust, and I feel like that'showever this relationship with
creativity unfolds.
That's the kind of dynamic thatI want to foster and that's the
kind of dynamic that I want tocultivate.
Speaker 3 (01:12:57):
Mm, and that's such a good example because it's so
clear and obvious to you in yourrelationship with Winnie.
Like, why would you do anythingto scare her?
Why would you have unreasonableexpectations of her?
Why would you?
You know, it's like, oh that wecan, like, you can pick that up
and like, place it onto yourcreativity as well, right, like,
(01:13:21):
oh, why do we?
I mean, I know why we do,because we, like, are taught and
conditioned to view itotherwise, but we can practice
finding that just aspreposterous, right, why?
would I expect my creativity,like why would I expect myself
to rush or to need to doanything, or to have to have
(01:13:46):
some like very specific versionof success that is measurable in
a certain way?
I mean, why would we have thoseexpectations of ourselves or of
our creativity?
You know, it seems we canpractice seeing it as just as
silly, until it just seems silly, you know.
Speaker 1 (01:14:05):
Yeah, yeah, I love it .
Well, just to give peoplecontext, you know I shared that
you're gonna be teaching aworkshop for BAM.
It is open to the public and soyou know, if it's before March
(01:14:26):
13th 2024, people can sign upand hang out with us live, and
if it's after that time, thenpeople can listen to the
recording, and I'm sure thatthat's gonna be just as exciting
and invaluable.
Sometimes, actually, I findthat, with your gatherings in
(01:14:47):
particular, there are times whenI just like wanna pause the
conversation to like actuallylike integrate it and digest it,
and so I don't know, maybe therecording will be helpful for
folks, but can you give us alittle bit, just like, of a
framework, what people canexpect from that workshop?
(01:15:10):
And I'll make sure that allthose links are in the show
notes.
Speaker 3 (01:15:16):
Yeah, it's gonna be two hours of us just being
together and being reallycurious and sort of playing
within the same world of ideasthat we've talked about here,
right?
So thinking about, well, if Ireally do want to be in
relationship with my creativity,what are some tangible
(01:15:37):
practices I can harness in orderto do that?
So we're gonna be thinkingabout collaboration spirit, of
collaborating with ourcreativity.
We're gonna be talking a littlebit about paying attention, the
quality of our attention thatwe bring to our creative channel
, and we'll be talking abouttrust as well.
So, using these as our kind oflike guiding qualities, we'll do
(01:16:01):
some sort of group reflection,we'll generate some ideas,
there'll be some guided writing,which will be, for me, kind of
like the highlight of theworkshop a chance for us to be
curious together about thesethings and then turn to the page
and see what's maybe showing upfor us.
(01:16:22):
I think, hopefully, by the endof the two hours, we will be in
a kind of nourished space andwe'll feel like a little bit
more intimacy with ourcreativity and we will have also
generated some like prettyspecific and personalized ideas
around how to maybe like keepunfolding that and keep tending
that.
So, yeah, whether you attendlive or catch the replay.
(01:16:45):
I think it'll be a prettynourishing time, so yeah, Love
it.
Speaker 1 (01:16:52):
So, as I said earlier , I'll make sure to have the
correct links in the show notes,but if you just wanna like hop
straight over, I'm gonna haveall that on cathosucom and if
you just click down to thelittle bar tabby thing that says
workshops, and it'll be rightin there.
And for those of you who wantto continue to connect with
(01:17:18):
Sarah, I don't know how manytimes I wanna like stand on my
own personal mountaintop andtell people to like sign up for
your newsletter because I get somuch out of it.
And one of the things that I'min awe of is how prolific of a
writer you are.
I think that I tend to andmaybe this is just like both of
(01:17:46):
our sort of many gents comingthrough, there's a part of me
that's like man.
I thought that like I was aprolific writer, and then look
at what you're putting out andthe quality that you're putting
out and I'm like I would need somuch quiet time to come to
these like reflections thatyou're coming up with.
(01:18:09):
I really truly do love yournewsletter, and I'm not afraid
to say that I will continue topay for and elevate a number of
your writing.
Speaker 3 (01:18:23):
Thank you so much.
Yeah, yeah, that's.
I really appreciate youmentioning that and using that
word prolific.
And just to be really superclear, given the conversation we
just had, like thatprolificness is not me meaning
deadlines or like profit drivengoals, like that has happened
(01:18:45):
very organically because of mydevotion to my writing practice
and I started that newsletterbefore I became self-employed.
Even it was not about itoriginally, had nothing to do
with anything other than I loveto write.
And here's this new like venuethrough which for me to do that
(01:19:06):
and share it regularly.
So, yeah, I really appreciatethat reflection.
I'm gonna take a quick pausehere.
You just I think I caught whatyou said when you asked or when
you gave me that compliment, butyou did glitch a little and I
(01:19:29):
did.
It went away.
But I got a message saying thatlike there were some connection
issues for a second.
Speaker 1 (01:19:34):
I got the same thing and I think it's okay, because
whatever side will upload it toyour computer and then upload it
to the cloud, so we'll get amuch cleaner recording Okay.
All the good stuff is gonna goaway.
Speaker 3 (01:19:49):
Okay, so had you, I just it.
I think I caught what you said,but you hadn't asked me a
question, right?
Or had you asked where peoplecould find me, or was it?
Speaker 1 (01:20:03):
Let me ask it again.
Speaker 3 (01:20:04):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (01:20:07):
Because I feel like I did ask you, but I don't know.
We'll have to play with it inthe edits.
So, my dear, before we log off,are there any sort of like last
minute little nuggets that youwant to throw in here?
Slash, how can people find youon the web?
Speaker 3 (01:20:28):
Yeah, well, I just I want to thank you for this
conversation.
It's been so wonderful and Iwant to thank you again for this
like wonderful, dynamicrelationship that we're in Coach
, steward of creativity, friendall the wonderful things in all
the directions.
(01:20:48):
So, yeah, you're a very specialand unusual person in my life
as well, kat.
And yeah, people can find meobviously hanging out in the BAM
community and hosting theworkshop and then at my website,
sarahtarisacookcom.
All my stuff is linked there,including my sub-stack, but you
(01:21:12):
can go directly to my sub-stackat sarahcooksub-stackcom.
And I'll just mention quicklysince I made it live yesterday,
I did create a new free resourcethat I'm pretty excited about.
It's called Creative Resilience.
It's this four-week sort ofself-guided course that you can
sign up for and it'll walk youthrough four of the big main
(01:21:37):
concepts that come up again andagain in my one-on-one work with
clients and in my own creativepractices, just with an eye
toward building a more resilientrelationship with our
creativity.
So there's a button on mywebsite that you can click and
snag that for free if you'reinterested.
So pretty excited about that.
Speaker 1 (01:22:00):
Wonderful.
And for those of you who arelistening via the podcast, that
is Sarah with an H and Teresawithout an H.
So, sarahtarisacookcom, yes andyeah.
Speaker 3 (01:22:16):
Thanks a lot.
Speaker 1 (01:22:19):
All righty, my dear Well, thank you so much for
joining and I hope we get to seesome new and familiar faces
during our workshop and excitedto continue being in this
unusual relationship with you.
Speaker 3 (01:22:38):
Yes, yes, all the unusual good things.
Yes, love you so much, kat.
Speaker 1 (01:22:46):
Love you right back honey.
Hello, my friends, we get to hang out with Sarah Cook
today and she is a creativitycoach and she is somebody who
has an unusual place in my life.
I was just sending you amessage.
The other was that just lastnight that I sent you that
(00:22):
message.
I think it was.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Yeah, like less than 24 hours ago.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
What is time.
So Sarah is an unusual personin my life because she came in
through business alchemistmentorship and she has sort of
like bridged lots of differentrealms of now being a
collaborator.
I attend a lot of hercreativity resilient circles.
(00:50):
I have plans to, fingerscrossed, write something bigger
than a Instagram post at somepoint in my life, potentially a
book, and when that happens, Iknow that Sarah is going to help
me do that into the world.
I'm just not quite there yet,and so I was just reflecting,
(01:11):
apparently yesterday, that I'mjust so grateful when I get to
have these people in my lifewhere we are able to flexibly
move through these differentroles and hold boundaries in a
way that feels expansive andreally honors each of our own
sort of space holding capacities, and so today I have asked
(01:37):
Sarah to come on to our programand chat with us about
creativity, partially because Ifeel kind of like weird saying
this out loud, but as somebodywho, like, looks at everything
through a relational lens, Ithink you were the first person
who it like, actually clickedfrom you, and you were like you
(01:59):
can have a relationship withyour creativity, and I was like
what?
So, yeah, thank you for givingmy creativity a body of voice, a
bit of a sassy voice, and thenI've also asked her to come and
(02:26):
teach a workshop for mycommunity.
So if you're listening to thisbefore March 13, 2024, you can
come join us live.
We're going to be meeting at11am Pacific Standard Time.
The concept around the workshopis called partnering with your
creativity and even if you'relistening to this after that
(02:48):
date, you won't be able to joinus live because at this point we
can't really time travel.
But you can download therecording and I'm really really
excited to have her on the show,have her teach within my
community and continue topromote your work, sarah, so
welcome.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
What an intro.
I love being an unusual personin people's lives.
That's like a great role in mymind.
And also I really appreciateyour candidness around the like,
the sort of tension maybearound that metaphor of like
having a relationship with yourcreativity and the way it needed
(03:30):
to like click and then itclicked in a really big way for
you, because you might recall, Ialso had initially kind of
struggled struggles too strongof a word, but like the idea of
being in relationship with mybusiness felt very, very, very
abstract to me for a very longtime.
And I think it wasn't untilafter BAM that I sent you like a
(03:52):
very long voice note and I waslike, oh my God, I get it, I get
it.
Like it didn't click and then,when it clicked, it has now like
stayed, clicked in the depthsof my soul in such an important
way.
So I like the sort of likemirroring that's happened for
each of us.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
I love it.
I've forgotten about thatmoment for you and just like
that, I just remember.
I can't remember exactly howyou put it, but I just remember
the like excitement that youfelt to like, like, feel this
sort of tangible relationship toyour business and, in a way, I
(04:39):
feel like I'm still starting toreestablish that with my
creativity.
I don't feel like I'm likesearching for it in the same way
, but I think that relationshipsare all different, right, and I
haven't gotten the click, asyou call it, for me, even when I
fell in love with my husband.
(05:00):
It was this like slow the lightis turning up in the room kind
of a sensation, and so I feellike it's similar with my
creativity personally.
It's not this like lightningbolt, lock eyes from across the
room and, like now, I get yousort of a feeling.
(05:21):
It's more of a like, like let'sfeel each other out, and like
let's see what this is andwhat's actually here.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Yeah, well, I love that you're like comparing it to
this very importantrelationship of yours, because
that, to me, is demonstratingthe way you're engaging with it
in this like very relational way.
Right, and even this idea thatyou could be okay having
expectations of your creativitythat are slower, that are that
(05:53):
where you're like not worried,like what you just said.
I don't hear any worry in you.
At least they're expressingthat.
It hasn't clicked yet.
It sounds like you just kind ofknow, oh yeah, there's a thing
that's unfolding.
I'm like heading there slowly.
I think that's how a lot ofgood things function.
Yeah, I think that's great.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Can we dive into expectations?
Just because you kind ofbrought that up.
Yeah.
I think part of the strugglethat I have with creativity and
I think that this is probably acommon theme for a lot of
spiritual entrepreneurs is thatbecause our work is so creative,
you know, you can't deny that.
(06:39):
You know, coming up withcurriculum isn't creative like
you know, creating workshops,putting writing out there,
putting even like I think aboutsocial media as this like new,
strange art form there's reallybeautiful, like pieces that
people create.
And you know, just because youput it up in the digital space
(07:02):
doesn't mean that it's no lesscreative.
And, as a spiritualentrepreneur whose creativity is
tied to your income, is tied tolike a tangible output, how do
(07:23):
you manage that dynamic ofhaving expectations of your
creativity but then also givingit like a loose enough leash
that it doesn't feel stifled andit then doesn't become this
like transactional relationship?
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Excuse me.
Yeah, I mean I think this iswhy.
So something often that happenswhen I have, like a new client
who finds me.
A lot of folks come to me for alot of different reasons, but a
very common one is they have abook that they're wanting to
write and they come to me andthey have this project and one
(08:05):
of the first things I will askthem is okay, what other
creative things do you work onother than this book or other
than this project?
And, and you know, sometimespeople have answers to that and
sometimes they don't, and I'malways a huge advocate that
people have other routes inwhich they're engaging with
their creativity and working onthings, and even writing, even
(08:27):
within the world of writing,like all of your writing, I'm
going to say, shouldn't be, youknow, funneled into the book or
this external facing thing,because I think that creates the
kind of pressure that sets usup to have like unfair
expectations of our creativity.
I think we have to be tending itin ways that are not public
(08:49):
facing and in ways that are justprivate, and and that is not to
say I mean, you know, sometimesI'm working on something and it
becomes a public facing thingor it finds its way into a
newsletter.
Right, these aren't hard andfast boundaries, but I just
think it's sort of like you know, a healthy ecosystem is one
that's diverse, like we needdiverse expressions of our
(09:12):
creativity, even if they're allwithin the same genre or medium.
I just think we have to betending it in multiple ways
because that that like need forplay and experiment, like those
things are going to lookdifferent in the context of
paying my bills every month andneeding to think about certain
(09:34):
things, needing to be discerningabout what I'm creating, and so
it feels sort of unfair to ourcreative channel to only tend it
within like a business or anexternal facing context, just
like too much pressure on it.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna take a pause because it sounds
like it's gone now.
Is there a dryer or somethinggoing on in the background?
Speaker 3 (10:06):
There is.
Let me go turn it off.
Yeah, one second.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Sweet, good catch, I caught it.
(10:33):
Sometimes I've recorded entireepisodes and then Andre's been
like did you hear that thing inthe background?
And I'm like no, and then Ilisten back and I'm like yeah,
there was a thing and I justdidn't hear it.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Yeah, and you know what, not to create too much
difficulty, but I am realizing Iusually set up my microphone
and I didn't.
I'm just doing this through mylaptop, which I have done before
for other podcasts.
Do you want me to just plugthat in real quick for better
sound mode, or okay?
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Let me.
I'm sure Andre will be yeahwith better sound.
Sometimes he picks up on soundthings that, like I never even
like register Like.
The reason why I have a sockover my microphone is because he
complains about my S's and T's.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
Oh my god, let me, let me grab something real quick
.
Yeah, is that Ruby again.
(11:49):
That is so cute Okay.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Let me help you.
What you're wanting is a fold.
I fold it for you, that better.
I made you a little nasty rightthere.
Yeah, yeah, there you go.
And then you got like a littlechin rest.
There you go.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
Oh gosh, I'm just thinking my so my outlets on my
laptop.
Do you have a Mac?
It's like they're too closetogether for me to have two of
these like dongles plugged in atonce so I can plug my mic in,
(12:48):
but then I do have like a lightbehind my laptop, so I'll just
have to unplug that, so I mightjust be a little darker.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Okay, let's see what it looks like.
Okay, I mean more people listenversus watch on YouTube, so I'm
more concerned about sound thanI am about.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
Okay.
So yeah, it is a little fuzzynow.
Gosh, I'm usually more preparedthan this, I'm just going to
try to get it to work.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
It's all good.
It just means that you are notnervous.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Well, yeah, I'm just going to try to get it to work.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
That's a that's actually really true, I think
what you just said.
Okay, let me see.
I'm guessing I probably have tochange a setting now.
Oh, I can't switch mics whilewe're recording.
Oh, okay.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Well then, let's just leave it.
Okay, because we've recordedenough that I don't want to like
lose it.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Sweet Okay.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
Sorry about all that here.
Let me at least plug my lightback in.
Okay, Okay A little bit Okay.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Um, let me pick up where you left off.
Hmm, why do I hear myself againHello, hello, hello, hello,
hello.
Okay, it's gone now.
I don't know why it was pickingup on my sound again.
Um, I don't know what I'm doing, I'm just going to turn it off.
(14:49):
Um, hearing you say all thataloud, I feel like there's like
something tingly happening withlike an inner teenager, inner
child, because I think so manywell, I shouldn't say so many of
us I'll just sort of speak formyself and my own experience of
(15:16):
sort of being trained to onlyput an effort if it's going to
have some sort of like payoff atthe end.
I think growing up it was verymuch and I think this is a bit
(15:36):
of a generational thing and Ithink it's actually gotten worse
with this more recentgeneration of like you go to
kindergarten to get into thegood grade school, which then
gets you to the good like highschool, which then you have to
do, you know, cross off all yourT's and do all the extra
(15:58):
curriculars in order to get tothe good college.
And you know, I feel like therewas like even with the things
that I absolutely loved, youknow, like I was in okay, so
this is like super nerdy versionof me, but I'm going to own it.
I was part of the like futureFarmers of America club when I
was in high school and we raisedlike sheep and cows and it's
(16:21):
like truly something that Iloved and obviously it's
something that I continue tolove because I want to, you know
, be a farmer.
I'm like an aspiring farmer.
But like even with that, it waslike, oh, you're doing this.
At least the message that I gotfrom my parents was this like,
like, oh, you're doing this sothat you can put that down as
(16:42):
like good extracurricularactivity will then help you get
into a good school.
Or you know a lot of thevolunteer work that I was doing
around that time was also around, you know, volunteering in
veterinary clinics andvolunteering in hospitals, and
all that was like just to like,rack up the like point total to
(17:04):
like get to the thing and italways felt like it was like, oh
, like, then that's going to getyou to the next thing, and then
the next thing, and then thenext thing.
There was never this idea oflike, hey, like you can just do
that thing, just because itsimply brings you joy.
You know, which is kind of whatI'm hearing with you.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Why is my printer doing that?
What the hell?
Well, now I'm like what is it?
Speaker 3 (17:35):
printing.
I'm so curious.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
I don't know what I'm printing.
I have no idea.
Well, it printed a thing.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
That's wild, so I'll just pick up off of that.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Andre.
So it always is like idea likealways be doing something to get
to the next thing, and evenjust you naming hey, like you
can just do a thing, even ifit's writing, and even if you're
craft that you do sort of putout there publicly is writing,
(18:11):
you are still allowed to writefor the sake of writing, write
for the joy of writing or pursueother creative practices that,
like, are completely outside ofwriting, just for the hell of it
, because it brings you joy.
Yeah, and there's like a partof my like in our teenager
that's, that's.
(18:36):
I don't know Like it's.
it's not something that I likeis something that I've heard
before, but I think I'm gettinglike an idea of what I'm doing.
It's not something that I like,is something that I've heard
before, but I think I'm gettinglike another click of it here,
as we're sort of speaking thisout.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
Yeah, yeah, it's so hard and it's really why, like,
I just think everything comesback to the importance of having
an anti capitalist lens forthings.
Right, because what we'retalking about is like value.
Like that can things bevaluable and we're having a use
value outside of like earning usprofit, outside of counting or
(19:19):
not counting toward ourproductivity right, we're
talking about just like pleasureand creative experience that
isn't necessarily always tied toa creative product.
It makes me think for anyonewho, like has a really hard time
leaning into that of just doingsomething creative for the joy
(19:43):
of it.
Right, because I know that canfeel really sticky.
Right, because these messagesare old and they're also
everywhere, and so it's we'relike constantly having to swim
upstream to like give ourselvespermission to do something that
isn't productive or that isprivate or that won't go on our
social media, right, so I getthat that's hard.
I wonder, for those of us whoalready have like a strong sense
(20:03):
of being really like anticapitalist in our practices, if
we can like harness some of thatin order to tend like a
different and more robustrelationship with our creativity
.
Right, because I might feellike, well, I'm definitely anti
capitalist in my practices andmy business and my
entrepreneurship.
But I have a hard time creatingjust for myself.
(20:25):
But if I think of that as partof that anti capitalist practice
, that could create a differentdoor into that house, right Like
that, that could create adifferent like way to play
around with that idea if itfeels really tricky.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
I think what you're bringing up for me is, you know,
of course everything is aspiritual practice.
At least that's how I sort ofview things, and you know I've
said this many times beforewhere it's like oh yeah, you
know, the reason why business isa spiritual practice is because
(21:04):
all the things that you thoughtyou worked on outside of
business you know attachmentstuff hey, you get into business
and now here's another way tolike learn that thing again.
And what I'm hearing you say is, at least the reflection back
(21:24):
to me is like I have done a lotof work around being anti
extractivist and, you know,creating ethical business
practices and really looking atsort of my own place in the like
consumer cycle and becausethere isn't like, because there
(21:46):
isn't like money tied to mycreativity, at least, not in the
like sort of like super directsense of the word.
like I'm not an artist, that isnow like creating something that
people are wanting to purchase.
It's like a tangible thing,like I'm seeing this now as like
(22:08):
oh, here's another place whereyou can actually do that anti
extractivist work in a differentsort of playground, in a
different sort of arena.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
Yeah, and I kind of I just want to like stay with
what you just said a tiny bitlonger, because I feel like what
we're talking about there'slike two pieces of it that are
just as important, and the oneis, yes, you, you don't need to
have anything financial tied toyour creativity for it to be
(22:42):
worthwhile.
Period, that's it Like.
And I kind of want to challengewhat you just said about your
creativity not tied to yourincome, because that when you
say that word artist, I knowwhat you mean and even that,
though, I see a lot of peoplewho are doing very creative
(23:02):
things, but we have this idea of, like the fine arts in our mind
like you're writing a novel orpoetry, or you're you're taking
fancy black and whitephotographs or you're painting
with, like oil or watercolors,and that counts as being an
artist.
Like I'm really curious aboutwhat a modern, inclusive
(23:23):
definition of artist might looklike, you know, because I can't
help but and I'm saying this asyour friend, as someone who has
received mentorship and coachingfrom you, as someone who's
talked with you about creativitymany, many times I don't know
that I believe you when you sayyour, your creativity is not
tied to your income.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Yeah, well, thank you for calling that out, because
I'm realizing, even just in thisconversation I've contradicted
myself because I said exactlythe opposite at the very
beginning, which then, like Idon't know, I'm just like, I'm
just like show you how this likepush pull dynamic that I'm
having with my own creativityand that relationship doesn't
always feel like it's got superclear boundaries, like it has,
(24:10):
you know, the same sort ofrelationship that I have with my
business, like there's thisdeep trust that I have in my
business that like, even when itebbs, it will eventually flow.
You know, I don't think I havethe same kind of relationship
with creativity, and so then itmakes these sort of like
(24:33):
concepts and definitions that Iplace around creativity a little
bit murky and sometimes likemalleable, and so I really
appreciate you.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Hey, like that's not actually true, is it?
Speaker 3 (24:47):
Yeah, well, and I, what I love about this
conversation is I I think it'sso important to that we just
like model and normalize thatpush pull.
Like, whether we're talkingabout creativity or whether
we're talking about business, orI'm sure there are other topics
we could be talking about too Ithink that push pull is such an
(25:07):
organic part of like reclaimingsomething on our own terms.
Right, you, you are in thebusiness of helping people like
reclaim their skills, theirentrepreneurship, their desire
to serve others, like on theirown terms, right, spiritually,
(25:28):
professionally, personally, allthose things.
So I think that is true can betrue with our creativity too.
Right, like we need to sort ofreclaim it from these terms that
we've inherited or learned and,you know, picked up in
classroom spaces that weren'tactually very nurturing all that
stuff, and I think so.
(25:48):
I think that push pull is sonormal and okay, I don't.
I don't think these things arejust like light switches that we
can just turn on and now, now,now I feel better about my
creativity and and we're happilyever after, like there's going
to be the like expansion andcontraction, right, like an
inner, like a nervous.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
It's so funny.
As you were speaking and thisis going to come off a little
bit crass I feel like the voiceof my creativity was piping up
and saying I don't want to beprostituted anymore.
Woo.
And, as I'm like tracking it,it's like I do have a history of
(26:37):
turning my creativity into anextractivist thing.
Yeah, before you know, one ofthe very first businesses that I
opened up was as a calligraphyartist and I used to do like
envelopes for weddings andbirthday parties and I also used
(27:03):
to write people's like weddingvows up in like really beautiful
script and, you know, createart pieces of people's favorite
poems, and it was really fun andbeautiful in the beginning.
But eventually it turned intothis thing where it felt very
(27:27):
technical and mechanical andlike almost like I had like sort
of sucked the creativity out ofit because it was no longer
this like co-creative processwith creativity.
Was this like people are hiringme to do the thing and then I
push out the thing?
Speaker 3 (27:44):
And.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
I'm wondering again like full transparency and
vulnerability here, likemodeling, like I think that
there is a little bit of a fearhere of Is this beautiful thing
that I love, which is businesscoaching, and I do think that
there's a lot of creativity sortof infused in the way that I
(28:07):
look at businesses and Look athow we, you know, put them in
relationship to our bodies andnature and all that stuff.
The last thing I would want todo is to like turn that into a
thing that feels Like mycalligraphy business, and I
(28:30):
don't think I'm anywhere closeto that, but I I'm sort of like
tuning into my creativity andthat's one of the things that's
coming through in thisconversation.
Is this fear of but this is thething we really love and are
super passionate about, and whatif we lose that and it turns
into a thing that is justturning out Numbers and are you
(28:53):
gonna protect me from that.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
Yeah, yeah, that makes so much sense and I don't
even think that messaging that'scoming through.
It didn't strike me as crass.
It feels really accurate andreally truthful and I mean it
sounds like you loved that earlybusiness until you didn't.
(29:16):
And I mean, do you feel, can I?
So I want to just kind of ask aquestion about this do you feel
like you Started loving it lessbecause of Of something that
was taking place in the business, or was that just a sort of
(29:39):
natural kind of, you know,ebbing away from something?
Speaker 1 (29:50):
When I go back to that time in my life, it was
when I was in grad school.
My calligraphy businessactually put me through grad
school, which is really amazing.
And Yet because my expenseswere so high during grad school
(30:10):
and it was such an I want to say, like quote-unquote easy way to
make money Because I could justmake my own schedule around it,
I could, you know there was alot that that felt very flexible
about it and it was like apretty high Dollar per hour sort
(30:31):
of a job.
There was almost this feelingof like I have to.
You know, I remember taking onprojects at the very end when I
was like I really don't want todo this one, like I can go an
entire lifetime not hearing orreading or or listening to an ee
(31:00):
Cummings poem, like About eeCummings that people frickin
love, but especially I like rafi, that's so funny.
I was like, if I have to writeanother ee Cummings poem again,
I'm Going to scream.
(31:22):
But it was like every time Idid that, you know, I was Seeing
the money hit my account andand I needed the money at the
time, you know.
And so it was just this.
Like I Mean, I think it feelsaccurate to like say that I had
a very like prostitute,prostitute slash, like a madam
(31:44):
energy with Creativity.
My creativity was was theprostitute?
Yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
Yeah, no, I think I think it did and I mean it also.
I also hear like, oh, it soundslike Again, if we can stay in
this space of seeing yourcreativity, is this thing that
you're partnering with?
It's like it sounds like thatit also like really supported
you a lot during that time anddid give you some things that
you needed and and Then it had asort of like expiration date
(32:20):
for that particularManifestation of it.
I mean it kind of I feel likeit's.
What you're talking about isalso bringing up this other
thing that feels reallyimportant here, which is like
our Creativity over timeNecessarily is gonna want to
show up in different ways andour enthusiasm for things and
(32:40):
our sense of being reallydevoted to certain practices or
Certain projects like that'sgonna change and I think those
things can end in the same waythat, like winter ends and we
move into a new season right,and sometimes there's grief
there, but it's not bad, likePart of me wants to say.
(33:04):
Like your current Enthusiasm andlove and devotion for the thing
you're doing right now, that'sthe thing to trust more than
anything else, and if thatfeeling changes or goes away,
then that will tell you it'stime to look for a different
route or to reassess thingsright, but I think you can
(33:27):
always Trust that.
That like enthusiasm.
I actually think that Figuringout like, what are we creatively
enthusiastic about is soimportant to Start having this
more robust practice with ourcreativity and to be thinking
outside of like well, what doother people want to see what?
(33:50):
What could I sell?
What could I make money on?
Like just being able to noticeand know that there are certain
Creative things that we love andfeel excited about and want to
protect, like giving that lotsof our attention is Such an
important practice.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
Yeah, and I think too , like when, when we're talking
about it in this way, it's it'stotally true like my
relationship to let's just usecalligraphy just to continue
that theme has changedcompletely, where, like
calligraphy is now somethingthat I do for myself, something
(34:31):
that like itches a part of myADHD brain in a way that nothing
else itches.
And you know, I have taken on acouple of like commissioned
projects from like close friends, and you know, to me, when I've
taken on those projects, like Ifeel like I can't take money
(34:53):
for those projects, I'm eithergifting them or I'm asking them
to make a donation To a charity.
Like I'll pick a subject and belike, can you please send what
you would have sent to me tothis charity, because I think
that my creative process aroundcalligraphy in particular is so
(35:14):
tired of being Like used formoney, and so I Think that
there's a lot of different waysthat we can develop different
kinds of relationships With eachof these things that we do.
You know, I would say that likeother ways that my creative
process flows is, you know, whenI work with my horses or when
(35:38):
I'm doing embroidery or Playingwith watercolors, like, and I
feel like each of them kind ofhas like a different spirit.
I don't know if you feel thatway as well where it's like.
You know, my creative businesspartner has a different and sort
(36:00):
of vibe to, like my watercolorcreative partner, and that's
always sort of like fun to Tosort of play with like yeah
flavors of your creativity.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
Yeah, yeah, and I I really just want to take a
minute to really highlight whatyou shared, because this, this
like medium that you originallybrought up in this context of oh
this, was like a reallyExtractive creative process for
(36:40):
me.
I, you know, was doing thiscalligraphy and Charging too
much and it felt bad.
And all the things you shared,you've literally now Like you
only do it for free and foryourself.
Like that's amazing, what, whata what a healing choice that
you've made for this thing.
Like that's that's reallyincredible.
(37:03):
I Feel like, in addition to thesassiness of your creativity
that was sort of coming up alittle bit earlier like I
Imagine there's a lot ofgratitude there too, because
that's like a pretty startlingshift.
Like it's I, it wouldn'tsurprise me if you said, and I
never touched a calligraphy penever again, right, but instead
(37:26):
you're like no, you know, you'velike you have like shifted and
repaired.
It sounds like I mean, I don'tknow if you'd use that word, but
it you've really shifted yourrelationship with that thing.
Like that feels.
That feels like a pro move.
I.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
Mean, I don't know that I've ever shared the story
of, like my calligraphy creativepartner out loud before and,
you know, really had a chance tonotice.
I know it's like one of thosethings with relationships to
where it's like it's so easy totake that thing for granted.
Mmm.
(38:05):
So thank you for noticing.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, speaking of taking for
granted, like I do think, like II have been, I think creativity
was Honestly, like one of myfirst coping mechanisms when I
was very, very, very young.
I I like found the page Veryyoung.
(38:33):
I have been writing my wholelife and I think if it, you know
, coping mechanism, makes itsound a little more fraught than
I mean to, but I justCreativity has been such a part
of how I understand my ownperson hood for so long that I
think I can sort of like takefor granted that not everybody
(38:55):
has that relationship, you know,and so I, which I think maybe
makes me like a good person tobe a mentor and a guide in this
field, because I'm just likeit's so obvious like it's this
thing that helps us seeourselves and we can use it
privately and it can ground usand it can anchor us and we can
like play with ourselves and,and you know, reflect on who we
(39:17):
are in ways, when we're beingcreative, that we're never, ever
, ever going to be able to do inquite the same way anywhere
else.
I think I'm someone who'salways been like just really,
really clear on that and and Ithink I want to like tie this
back into this relationshippiece.
(39:39):
So I do think for some of us whodon't have that relationship
established and tend to assumethat our creativity has to fit
within these boundaries of youknow, what am I using it for?
What do I have to show for it?
You know, thinking about profitand productivity and all those
(40:00):
things.
I do think viewing it as moreof a relationship again invites
us to think about our creativityand ourselves in the same way
that we would a partner or afriend or someone else we're in
a relationship with, right Likewe would not go to the other
(40:21):
person and just be constantlythinking about what can I get
out of this relationship?
How can I use this relationshipto increase my monthly profits?
You know, it invites us sort oflike a benefit of the doubt and
more generosity.
That I think is really, reallynecessary.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
Yeah, in addition to benefit of the doubt and
generosity, I would also add in,it brings in accountability.
If I'm going to be asking youknow, if we're going to use this
as a relationship example, ifI'm going to be asking my
partner to, you know, dosomething for me, not in a sort
(41:11):
of transactional way, but likein a way that, like I think I
would always be asking myselflike how can I support you in
doing that thing for our team?
You know, like, like I guess anactual tangible example of that
would be like my husband, who'sa bus driver, went through a
(41:33):
pretty intensive like commercialdrivers like training before he
was able to be a bus driver andyou know it was like hard for
him mentally because he's doingthis thing that he's never done
before.
It was really really long hoursand you know he was doing it so
(41:53):
that our you know family'smonthly income would increase,
and so in a very way, there islike a transactional piece of
him doing this.
But I remember asking myselflike, okay, so if he's going to
do this hard thing for ourfamily, you know, what can I do
to like help him out?
(42:15):
Like and so like packing himlunch and you know, sometimes
he'd be really sort of like,like achy sore, and then he'd
probably be like I'm going todraw him a bath at the end of
the day.
And you know, I think that ifwe can all sort of tend to like
our you know, creative spiritsor the spirit of our business,
(42:38):
or you know again like becauseit's not really anything, you
know, I'm even thinking about,can this apply to my garden?
Can this apply to myrelationship with my dog, my
horses?
You know, if we are asking theother, and even if the other is
(43:00):
within ourselves, if we'reasking that other to do
something, that's really hard.
I think the devotional practicethat we have is how can I
support that hard thing?
Speaker 3 (43:13):
Yeah, I love that.
I love that so much.
It's just reminding me, too, of, like, how important the words
are that we use, because, you'reright, what you're describing
is a kind of transaction, butthat word feels so steeped in
the wrong spirit and the word Ijust kept thinking every time
you said it was well, it soundslike reciprocity, which feels so
(43:37):
different, right, sometimes,when I'm talking with clients
about like tasks and we findourselves talking like thinking
through the framework ofproductivity, I sometimes want
to say, well, let's talk aboutfruitfulness, not productivity.
Right, it's like we're stilltalking about making something,
but we're just like shifting thequality and maybe inviting in,
(44:01):
you know, a little bit more oflike a nature inspired
relationship to it.
I don't know, there's justsomething about thinking about
the reciprocity between us andour creativity that feels so
much softer and more generous.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
Absolutely so.
I mean, there's a reason why Iask you to hold so many
different roles in my life andeven within the life of BAM, I
would say because you are astudent, you're a member of the
(44:41):
community.
I've also asked you to be thecommunity moderator for the
Slack channel.
Anybody who joins BAM gets asubsidized creativity.
Reading with you Like this ishow important I think that our
relationship to creativity iswhen it comes to our businesses.
(45:03):
So, like I'm curious how youwould describe this like
somewhat polyamorousrelationship between ourselves
creativity and business.
Speaker 3 (45:25):
That's such a big question.
I feel a little intimidated bythat question, but I think I
actually want to sort of loopback to something I said earlier
in the conversation, where Ikind of alluded to like not
understanding for a really longtime that I was in relationship
with my business and then whenthings finally clicked, they
(45:46):
clicked in like a really big way, and I don't need to get into
all the details of why and howthat happened, but the short
version of what had happened wasI finally realized in a really
big way that my business wasgiving me things and I don't
mean like it's earning me moneyyes, it's doing that but like my
(46:09):
business had createdopportunities for me to step out
into the world with a kind ofconfidence that I had never had
before.
It had created opportunitiesfor me to believe, very casually
, that I was capable of certainthings that I had previously
(46:31):
never thought that I was capableof.
It also I mean, just to befrank, like it allowed me to
work from home during the lastyear and a half of my cat boots
being alive, and if I had notshifted into becoming self
employed, I would have lost somuch time with him that I ended
(46:54):
up having as a result.
You know, these things that Ilike, all the things I just
named, were not things that Isaid I'm going to become self
employed because then I'm goingto be able to do x, y and z.
These were things that werecreated just almost magically as
a result of this process andreally feel to me like gifts
(47:20):
from this relationship that I'mdoing and that, yes, I'm
stewarding and tending and havebeen working really hard and,
all you know, doing a bunch ofthings to move in a positive
direction, but so many of thethings that it's given me I
couldn't have anticipated.
So there's part of being inrelationship with the thing, is
(47:44):
like also being the recipient ofthings, and that feels really
important when we're thinkingabout creativity to, because
we're often thinking about whatam I making, what am I producing
, and also, frankly, justgetting stuck in like what I
guess I want to describe as likeego concerns, like, oh, is this
(48:05):
idea even good enough?
Oh, am I, are these poems good?
Like you know, we get reallystuck in, like assessing quality
, and I feel like when we'retalking about our creativity and
more of a relational aspect andwe create this opportunity for
us to not only be the people whoare, like, in charge and making
things and producing things,but we're also receiving things
(48:27):
from our creativity.
It's again it's like creatingan opportunity to maybe bypass
some of that judgment, becauseit's harder to judge.
It's easier to judge when Ifeel like, well, I'm just
sitting down and makingsomething and I hope it's good,
but when I'm in relationshipwith something it's different.
(48:48):
It's often things it createsmaybe a little more space for
curiosity or a little more spacefor listening, and if we can
just like be in that space withour creativity just for a teeny
tiny bit, I think that's when wecan very quickly unlock like
play and discovery andexperimentation and all these
(49:08):
things that really need a kindof uncertainty and a kind of
openness.
So, yeah, there's somethingabout this, this shape of.
Can we see our creativity as athing that we are the recipients
of and that we receive giftsfrom our creativity, and don't
(49:32):
we want to tend that?
Because, oh my goodness, lookat the like joy and possibility
that it brings into our life.
There's something I don't knowhow much or little.
Speaker 1 (49:43):
I answered your question, but it brings back
that word, reciprocity, that youbrought up earlier.
You know, if we're in you'retotally right like if we're in
any sort of stable, securerelationship with something
there it's not a one waydirectional flow, it is both.
(50:06):
And I don't think that we likewhen it comes to business, I
feel like a lot of times, ifwe're looking at it through like
the capitalist, extractivistmodel, there's always this like
well, it's got to be paying meback and we diminish the like
really, really beautiful giftsthat you just named in terms of
(50:27):
being able to show upconfidently in spaces that you
didn't realize that you couldshow up in.
And like there's not really adollar amount that we could put
on that, and yet the businesshas been the vehicle in order to
be able to like steward that inyour life.
You know, and I think that alot of times people look at
(50:48):
their businesses and say it's afailing business or it's not
doing as well as I want it to be, because we're only looking at
it through this, like one tinymarker.
And I think that we have atendency to do that with
creativity as well, where welook at it through this like
narrow framework of what we canreceive for it from it, and
(51:12):
anything outside of that, likeactual product or anything
outside of that like dollaramount that hits our bank
account, is somehow diminished.
And yeah, I'm just sort of likesitting with like this, like
this sort of like swimmingfeeling of like all the things
(51:34):
that.
I've received from my businessand all the things that I've
received, also from creativitythat is so hard Like and this is
part of the reason why, like inBAM, we stress like what are
your tangible wins?
As well as your tangible winslike?
We want to be able to namethese things that are unnameable
(51:54):
and I feel like that is a actof anti capitalism, like that's
a revolutionary act, like namethe things that are intangible
and say that these things alsohave immense value.
Speaker 3 (52:09):
Yeah, yeah, and to be able to celebrate the things
that are harder to account for,harder to measure, like, harder
to show the other person evenright, like harder to turn into
an Instagram tile or harder tolike, yeah, account for in our
ledger book, you know, to justbe able to.
(52:33):
I mean, there's this sort oflike question of like, well,
what do you have to show for it?
Right?
I feel like what we're talkingabout is like well, me, I have
me to show for it.
Like that has to be, that hasto be the starting point, and I
(52:54):
think that's.
I mean, it sounds like nice andfluffy and and maybe like I'm
saying that through rose coloredglasses, but like, I really
mean it.
Like our creativity, like thething, the, the way that we can
get to know ourselves, createritual for ourselves, create a
(53:15):
kind of like stability ofpersonhood through our set for
ourselves, but also practicebeing in uncertainty and
experiment like, like we can tapinto those things creatively
and I, I think, especially inwriting, in a way that we just
like can't anywhere else and, infact, for people who are like,
(53:36):
still like, but I, I wantsomething to show for this.
It's like okay, we can havethis like really robust
relationship with our creativityand build skills that we can
then bring to other places inour lives.
You know, we can like hone ourquality of attention.
A better quality of attentionis only going to serve us as as
business people as well.
You know, we can like developnew ways for approaching
(54:00):
problems.
We can like practice beingcomfortable with things that
don't make sense and then maybepull a little bit of that into
the rest of our life, wherewe're often going to encounter
things that don't make sense inour heart, because that's just
like part of being a human right.
It's like it's so.
It's so at the core for me oflike just how I move through my
(54:26):
days and I think anybody who isnot tending an active
relationship with theircreativity.
It doesn't feel optional to me.
It feels like oh no, you'remissing out on something
fundamental.
I really think that.
Speaker 1 (54:45):
I love this.
I really need to pee.
Can we take a really good one?
Yeah, I took notes.
I took notes because I knowexactly where I want to take it,
but beautiful beautiful sothanks, of course, this is so
(57:12):
good and I need to pee, so badcan you hear me hello, hello oh
you're, you froze for a secondhello am I good now?
Speaker 3 (57:26):
I can hear you right now sweet.
Speaker 1 (57:29):
I was just saying thank you because that was so,
so good what you just said, and,oh my god, I need to pee so bad
.
Yeah, green tea beforerecording is a fantastic idea.
Hmm bodies what I need yeah so Ilove what you just said and the
(57:57):
thing that I'm sort of likeokay, so I'm obsessed with soil
right now, because the stagethat my farm is at right now is
I am farming, soil is sort ofhow I think about it, and
because everything that I wantto do in the future is going to
(58:22):
be reliant on the health of themicrobiome, the health of the
soil.
What I put into the soil,everything is like it just
points back to soil, and this isa really big tenet of
regenerative farming practicesis it's less about you know what
(58:43):
companion plants are youputting next to each other and
what are you growing and whatare the conditions.
It's like.
If you can get your soil down,like all the other stuff is
going to be easy and so forthose of us who are saying I
still want the thing, you know,like it doesn't diminish that
desire, because I want to growmy own tomatoes one day and like
(59:09):
, if I'm thinking about itrealistically, I'm probably not
going to get decent tomatoes outof my garden for another two
years or so and that is becauseI really feel the, the
responsibility and theimportance of tending to soil in
(59:31):
this way that feels reallyregenerative, that feels like is
not going to take away from theland, like my relationship with
the land is so important that Idon't want to like make her
feel like I'm like stealing fromher and rather it's more about
(59:54):
like how can I add to thedynamics of the land?
and so if we're, if we'relooking at it with this context,
I'm like, oh like.
Creativity is the soil and andthen when we tend to the soil,
it then makes it so that it'sgoing to support all the
(01:00:20):
business things that I want todo down the line, you know.
So you know whether it is Iwant to grow tomatoes, or I want
to grow flowers, or I want to,you know, grow like a native
pasture, like all of that stuffis completely possible, despite
the fact that those are very,very divergent plans because of
(01:00:45):
the tending of the soil and thetending of the creativity.
And so to me it's like like, ifwe're going to talk about this,
like you know, a polyamorousrelationship between you and
creativity and like yourbusiness, it's like it's all
this like great cycle ofreciprocity that really asks us
(01:01:12):
to develop relationship withlike these really sort of like
like base foundational piecesthat like we cannot ignore.
Speaker 3 (01:01:27):
Yeah, yeah, and and these things that we might
assume either consciously orsubconsciously, are in
competition are not actually incompetition.
It's not.
It's also not like I'm saying,well, I've given up the life of
making money and having anythingthat looks at all like success
(01:01:49):
and instead I'm just the likeliving the star, the myth of the
starving artist or whatever youknow.
Like I, I love a lot of mydifferent creative projects.
One of my favorite ones is mysub-stack newsletter for the
birds.
I love when people pay me forthat.
That's great.
Like I have paid subscriptionoptions and that's like one of
(01:02:12):
the most exciting things in theworld to me.
When people sign up and pay mefor my writing, like that's
great.
Right, that me doing that doesnot discount all these other
things I'm talking about.
And all these other things I'mtalking about do not mean that I
can't have a paid model,subscription model for my
newsletter, right?
It's like All of these thingscan serve the other.
(01:02:34):
They're not in competition.
Speaker 1 (01:02:37):
Yeah, yeah, and I think that again it goes back to
that word of reciprocity.
It's like when we take thingsout of this like competitive
model, we start to actually seethat everything supports
everything else.
You know, cause you know if I'mthinking about the soil of the
garden, if I'm thinking aboutthe soil of the business.
(01:02:57):
It's like, yeah, you're goingto have to develop a healthier
relationship with money, becausewe all come into this work with
money wounds.
You know you're also going tohave to develop a healthier
relationship with boundaries,because you know you're going to
be in relationship with otherhumans.
You know whether it's clients orcollaborators you're going to
(01:03:20):
have to develop, like, likethere's so much that goes into
that soil and a lot of times welook at other people's
businesses and be like how didyou grow that amazing tomato?
And it's like you didn't seethe like tending and the health
of the soil and all the workthat went into it beforehand.
And I think that creativity andrelationship to creativity is
(01:03:42):
like one of these, likefundamental things.
I would say it's as importantas like manure that we're adding
into the soil to like make itas robust and nutritious as
possible.
Speaker 3 (01:04:01):
Yeah, yeah, there's something here too.
I feel like I'm not very activeon Instagram right now, but I
feel like I recently had a daywhere I just had a very strong
upset opinion and needed to goand like post something about it
.
I think I posted somethingabout this feeling that like
it's okay if part of ourcreative labor is invisible,
(01:04:23):
like which is not.
I don't mean it in like adismissive way, but I mean like
so much of the good work isinvisible, like everything
doesn't need to fit into.
I'm saying I'm using that wordin a way that's like
invisibility is really big andsometimes visibility can be
really small, and it's like wedon't need to fit all that stuff
(01:04:44):
into again.
This thing that we like canprove or sell or post about.
It's like the devotion that Ifeel, like you and I have been
talking about.
This whole conversation has todo with a lot of things that are
private or quiet or slow,really slow, and like how do you
make slow good things visible?
(01:05:06):
How do you like I can't liketake pictures of all the amazing
things happening undergroundwhen the soil is overwintering
and there's like bugs doinggreat shit down there?
You know it's like we can't seethat, but it's happening.
All that stuff is happeningbefore the thing sprouts right.
So it's again.
This is why it's like, oh myGod, all of this has to do with
(01:05:28):
anti-capitalism.
Like we have to value thethings that we can't readily see
even and we have to just likepractice, knowing that that is
normal and good.
Speaker 1 (01:05:40):
Yeah, and I think that that's where I get like
irritated with a lot of businesscoaching is it's so focused on
the like the fast artificialgrowth of the thing that's only
on the surface of the earth.
You know, instead of reallyemphasizing, hey, like you might
be in a relationship with thisbusiness for like a decade or
(01:06:02):
more, you know, and if that'sgonna be true, then can we look
at what's happening as like acompounding effect?
You know, Instead of it beingthis like I gotta get out of
here real quick, or like get inand get out real quick, you know
(01:06:23):
, which is sort of the energythat I feel from a lot of.
it's why I've had to unfollow somany business coaches Like is
because everyone's saying thesame thing about how easy it is
to turn in an online businessand like, go ahead, try it if
it's so easy.
go give it a try and see howeasy it is, because it's
(01:06:45):
incredibly hard, you know, andthe reason why we're being sold
this idea of online coachingbeing this like easy business is
because then you'll sign up forthat person's you know workshop
or program or whatever.
And I'm here to tell you likethis is hard and I will choose
(01:07:10):
this hard over and over and overagain, because it is so
connected to who I am and themedicine I'm supposed to put out
into the world.
And there's like an undeniabletruth in that for me is like you
get to choose your hard.
And so, in the context ofchoosing your hard, like, which
(01:07:35):
hard do you wanna choose?
You know, I'd say that being anacupuncturist was also hard.
It was just a different kind ofhard and you know, like if
we're constantly looking forjust comfort when it comes to
our work, I think you'll end uplike taking dozens of courses
(01:08:01):
from other people and, you know,trying to escape what you might
consider to be a life ofsuffering.
But it's like, rather, I wouldso much rather say like, hey,
it's gonna be hard and I lovethis hard, the same way that I
(01:08:21):
would say that about mycreativity.
Yeah, and this relationshipwith creativity as well.
Speaker 3 (01:08:28):
Yeah, yeah, well, and I think in both cases the hard
stuff is integral to the joyfulstuff too.
It's like, though all thosethings exist on the same sort of
more depthful, more complex,more challenging level.
Like I just keep wanting to saylike easy is too easy, like no,
(01:08:52):
like we want something likedepthful and complex and rich
and authentic, right?
I think also, what we'redescribing is like a realer
relationship with both of thesethings, and it's so funny to me
how I just feel like everythingwe've said we could say about
(01:09:17):
business and we could say aboutcreativity, like this shape of
how we're talking about relatingto these two things.
It's just so interesting andneat to me to see how those like
the mirroring between those.
You know, it's surprising.
Speaker 1 (01:09:34):
Yeah, I mean, I don't think it's a coincidence that,
like, I feel like there's like ayin to my yang, yang to my yin,
sort of a piece here, becauseit's like you have a more
developed relationship withcreativity, which is what I'm
craving, and I have a moredeveloped relationship with
business, which is also whatyou're craving, and so like, in
(01:09:55):
this reciprocity of relationshipbetween the two of us, it's
like we get to support eachother in the thing that we have
less experience with, eventhough we're kind of talking
about the same thing.
You know and like to sort ofcontinue to like like flesh out
(01:10:15):
this point around.
The depth and themeaningfulness of these
relationships is like I am nowgoing to be entering my forties
very soon.
I am no longer interested inrelationships that are like
dopamine inducing.
I'm fine with these.
(01:10:39):
Like little dopamine hits hereand here and there but like.
I want to create relationshipswith people, with my business,
with land, with all the thingsthat are more on the line of
serotonin which means that it isinherently going to be less
(01:11:00):
flashy.
It's inherently going to be less, like, you know,
sympathetically, sort ofactivating.
And perhaps, you know, maybe,if I circle it back to like what
I was saying at the very, verybeginning of our conversation
around this relationship withcreativity and I don't always
(01:11:23):
trust it all the time I feellike it kind of ebbs and flows
and yet I'm not like trying tolike quick-start it, like I know
that I've done that before andyou know whether that's through,
you know, feeling reallydisconnected to my creativity,
(01:11:47):
and then going on like amushroom trip or like finding
artificial ways to likekick-start it that don't feel
like it's coming from, like aninternally generated place.
I'd rather just sort of likesay I'm here for the long haul,
(01:12:13):
you know like.
I'm ready.
When you are, I'll be here.
It's a lot of the ways in whichI relate to horses as well,
like I have Winnie, who's beenabused in her life, and like I
have no desire to have her doanything other than be herself.
And it's this like very slow,like it took me eight months to
(01:12:40):
even be able to touch her.
It's been this like very, veryslow progression of building
trust, and I feel like that'showever this relationship with
creativity unfolds.
That's the kind of dynamic thatI want to foster and that's the
kind of dynamic that I want tocultivate.
Speaker 3 (01:12:57):
Mm, and that's such a good example because it's so
clear and obvious to you in yourrelationship with Winnie.
Like, why would you do anythingto scare her?
Why would you have unreasonableexpectations of her?
Why would you?
You know, it's like, oh that wecan, like, you can pick that up
and like, place it onto yourcreativity as well, right, like,
(01:13:21):
oh, why do we?
I mean, I know why we do,because we, like, are taught and
conditioned to view itotherwise, but we can practice
finding that just aspreposterous, right, why?
would I expect my creativity,like why would I expect myself
to rush or to need to doanything, or to have to have
(01:13:46):
some like very specific versionof success that is measurable in
a certain way?
I mean, why would we have thoseexpectations of ourselves or of
our creativity?
You know, it seems we canpractice seeing it as just as
silly, until it just seems silly, you know.
Speaker 1 (01:14:05):
Yeah, yeah, I love it .
Well, just to give peoplecontext, you know I shared that
you're gonna be teaching aworkshop for BAM.
It is open to the public and soyou know, if it's before March
(01:14:26):
13th 2024, people can sign upand hang out with us live, and
if it's after that time, thenpeople can listen to the
recording, and I'm sure thatthat's gonna be just as exciting
and invaluable.
Sometimes, actually, I findthat, with your gatherings in
(01:14:47):
particular, there are times whenI just like wanna pause the
conversation to like actuallylike integrate it and digest it,
and so I don't know, maybe therecording will be helpful for
folks, but can you give us alittle bit, just like, of a
framework, what people canexpect from that workshop?
(01:15:10):
And I'll make sure that allthose links are in the show
notes.
Speaker 3 (01:15:16):
Yeah, it's gonna be two hours of us just being
together and being reallycurious and sort of playing
within the same world of ideasthat we've talked about here,
right?
So thinking about, well, if Ireally do want to be in
relationship with my creativity,what are some tangible
(01:15:37):
practices I can harness in orderto do that?
So we're gonna be thinkingabout collaboration spirit, of
collaborating with ourcreativity.
We're gonna be talking a littlebit about paying attention, the
quality of our attention thatwe bring to our creative channel
, and we'll be talking abouttrust as well.
So, using these as our kind oflike guiding qualities, we'll do
(01:16:01):
some sort of group reflection,we'll generate some ideas,
there'll be some guided writing,which will be, for me, kind of
like the highlight of theworkshop a chance for us to be
curious together about thesethings and then turn to the page
and see what's maybe showing upfor us.
(01:16:22):
I think, hopefully, by the endof the two hours, we will be in
a kind of nourished space andwe'll feel like a little bit
more intimacy with ourcreativity and we will have also
generated some like prettyspecific and personalized ideas
around how to maybe like keepunfolding that and keep tending
that.
So, yeah, whether you attendlive or catch the replay.
(01:16:45):
I think it'll be a prettynourishing time, so yeah, Love
it.
Speaker 1 (01:16:52):
So, as I said earlier , I'll make sure to have the
correct links in the show notes,but if you just wanna like hop
straight over, I'm gonna haveall that on cathosucom and if
you just click down to thelittle bar tabby thing that says
workshops, and it'll be rightin there.
And for those of you who wantto continue to connect with
(01:17:18):
Sarah, I don't know how manytimes I wanna like stand on my
own personal mountaintop andtell people to like sign up for
your newsletter because I get somuch out of it.
And one of the things that I'min awe of is how prolific of a
writer you are.
I think that I tend to andmaybe this is just like both of
(01:17:46):
our sort of many gents comingthrough, there's a part of me
that's like man.
I thought that like I was aprolific writer, and then look
at what you're putting out andthe quality that you're putting
out and I'm like I would need somuch quiet time to come to
these like reflections thatyou're coming up with.
(01:18:09):
I really truly do love yournewsletter, and I'm not afraid
to say that I will continue topay for and elevate a number of
your writing.
Speaker 3 (01:18:23):
Thank you so much.
Yeah, yeah, that's.
I really appreciate youmentioning that and using that
word prolific.
And just to be really superclear, given the conversation we
just had, like thatprolificness is not me meaning
deadlines or like profit drivengoals, like that has happened
(01:18:45):
very organically because of mydevotion to my writing practice
and I started that newsletterbefore I became self-employed.
Even it was not about itoriginally, had nothing to do
with anything other than I loveto write.
And here's this new like venuethrough which for me to do that
(01:19:06):
and share it regularly.
So, yeah, I really appreciatethat reflection.
I'm gonna take a quick pausehere.
You just I think I caught whatyou said when you asked or when
you gave me that compliment, butyou did glitch a little and I
(01:19:29):
did.
It went away.
But I got a message saying thatlike there were some connection
issues for a second.
Speaker 1 (01:19:34):
I got the same thing and I think it's okay, because
whatever side will upload it toyour computer and then upload it
to the cloud, so we'll get amuch cleaner recording Okay.
All the good stuff is gonna goaway.
Speaker 3 (01:19:49):
Okay, so had you, I just it.
I think I caught what you said,but you hadn't asked me a
question, right?
Or had you asked where peoplecould find me, or was it?
Speaker 1 (01:20:03):
Let me ask it again.
Speaker 3 (01:20:04):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (01:20:07):
Because I feel like I did ask you, but I don't know.
We'll have to play with it inthe edits.
So, my dear, before we log off,are there any sort of like last
minute little nuggets that youwant to throw in here?
Slash, how can people find youon the web?
Speaker 3 (01:20:28):
Yeah, well, I just I want to thank you for this
conversation.
It's been so wonderful and Iwant to thank you again for this
like wonderful, dynamicrelationship that we're in Coach
, steward of creativity, friendall the wonderful things in all
the directions.
(01:20:48):
So, yeah, you're a very specialand unusual person in my life
as well, kat.
And yeah, people can find meobviously hanging out in the BAM
community and hosting theworkshop and then at my website,
sarahtarisacookcom.
All my stuff is linked there,including my sub-stack, but you
(01:21:12):
can go directly to my sub-stackat sarahcooksub-stackcom.
And I'll just mention quicklysince I made it live yesterday,
I did create a new free resourcethat I'm pretty excited about.
It's called Creative Resilience.
It's this four-week sort ofself-guided course that you can
sign up for and it'll walk youthrough four of the big main
(01:21:37):
concepts that come up again andagain in my one-on-one work with
clients and in my own creativepractices, just with an eye
toward building a more resilientrelationship with our
creativity.
So there's a button on mywebsite that you can click and
snag that for free if you'reinterested.
So pretty excited about that.
Speaker 1 (01:22:00):
Wonderful.
And for those of you who arelistening via the podcast, that
is Sarah with an H and Teresawithout an H.
So, sarahtarisacookcom, yes andyeah.
Speaker 3 (01:22:16):
Thanks a lot.
Speaker 1 (01:22:19):
All righty, my dear Well, thank you so much for
joining and I hope we get to seesome new and familiar faces
during our workshop and excitedto continue being in this
unusual relationship with you.
Speaker 3 (01:22:38):
Yes, yes, all the unusual good things.
Yes, love you so much, kat.
Speaker 1 (01:22:46):
Love you right back honey.
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